#103: Zack Kowalske

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

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We are Live.
Welcome, Zach.

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Is this the first podcast that
you did that you're doing?

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No, no, I've done a couple
before and I actually used to

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host a podcast.
I'll get out of here.

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Really.
Yeah.

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Wait, what kind of podcast was
it?

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So it was probably about 10
years ago.

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It was a forensic science weekly
kind of forensic Science News

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and commentary.
Wow, that's really cool.

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And so you do you do 1 episode a
week.

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And used to, yeah.
And then?

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And how long was it?
I did that for about a year and

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a half, two years, and then I
just got busy and kind of moved

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on to other projects currently,
you know, in development of a

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kind of a new video based
podcast project right now.

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That cool?
Yeah, it's fun creative outlet.

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Yeah.
Do you feel, do you feel that

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you've always had that kind of
need for some kind of creative

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outlet?
Oh, absolutely.

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Absolutely.
I, yeah, I am very much because

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of what I do and how I don't
know how how sucked into my work

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I can get.
It's very difficult to try and

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maintain that sense of self.
So I've always kind of sought

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some kind of creative outlet,
whether it was writing or no

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video or podcast or something
like that.

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Right now I've got I kind of
multitask all that creative

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outlet across a few different
spectrums.

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I know, I know exactly what
you're talking.

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About SO.
Yeah, yeah.

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So tell me a little about
yourself.

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So you're so you said that you
don't, you're that the nature of

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your work is so busy that you
often have you, you need to make

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time for yourself.
What do you do?

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What's so busy?
Yeah, So my name is Zach

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Kowalski.
I am a detective with a metro

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Atlanta Police Department.
I specialize in crime scene

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investigations.
I'm assigned to our crime lab,

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been there for a little over 16
1/2 years, and I specialize in

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crime scene reconstruction.
So anything dealing with violent

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crimes, blood stain pattern
analysis, shooting,

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reconstruction, you know, kind
of advanced crime scene analysis

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work predominantly, you know, I
in our crime scene

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investigations unit.
So I'll go out the scenes that

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I'm requested to and, you know,
try and use science to catch bad

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guys.
And then I did you, did you go

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into this from a law enforcement
perspective or a science

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perspective or both?
A.

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Little bit of both.
So I knew that I wanted to go

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into crime scene investigations
from about the age of 12.

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I got my first fingerprint kit
under the Christmas tree.

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I think that that year.
Cool.

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Yeah, a a note to what to go.
Do with the Christmas tree?

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Wait, what is the Tokyo do with
the fingerprint kit?

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Destroy the bathroom counters
with fluorescent powder

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unknowingly.
So always do any kind of

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fingerprinting work outside
because you will stain the

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countertops.
How does it work?

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How does that work?
Fingerprint powder?

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So fingerprint powder is a
finely ground up, typically

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volcanic ash for our black ones.
The bigger print powder comes in

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a variety of different colors
and as the whole idea is that

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you want to apply some powder to
the sebaceous oils of

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fingerprints so that you can
increase contrast with your

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medium that your your prints are
on, right.

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So if we have a, you know, white
background, like a a painted

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wall, we want to use some black
powder so that we can develop

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that print to where we can
visualize it.

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And then we can, you know, take
photographs of it and lift it

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and recover it that way.
And when you get a print, I'm

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sorry, I'm so sorry.
I didn't mean to cut you off

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when you got a print.
The shape of like the actual

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physical shape of the print is
what you're going to use to, you

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know, to match with someone's
DNA or you wait for the DNA on

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the print.
So there.

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Yeah, Yeah.
So with prints, there are a

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couple of different routes that
you can take, right.

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So the first is that we can
identify who that fingerprint

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belongs to if we have sufficient
wrench characteristics that can

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be based off of, you know, just
depends on, on what kind of

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surface it's on and you know,
how that print is deposited.

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So we can identify the pattern.
I'm sorry.

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Does that frequently happen?
Oh yeah.

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You could like, it's pretty you
you.

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It's not so hard to find, like
it's not so hard to get a print

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with ridges.
No, no, not at all.

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It is whether or not there is
sufficient ridges to actually be

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able to ID it right.
Because if you think about how

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you touch, you know how you
interact with the world around

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you, your hands and your fingers
and are constantly in motion.

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So you always think, well, you
know, I touch a doorknob.

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I can absolutely get a
fingerprint off of that.

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Well, what's your hand doing
when you touch that doorknob?

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Well, typically you're twisting
the door knob, right?

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So that is inherently distorting
those Ridge characteristics.

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So it's not guaranteed that
we're going to get a

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fingerprint, a quality
fingerprint, I should say.

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Now what we can do is we can
swab that print, right?

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And we can swab that and try and
go after what's called low count

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DNA or trace DNA and try and go
about identifying the source

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that.
Way.

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Wow, amazing.
That's cool.

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Yeah, forensic science is
awesome.

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I mean, you know, we're looking
for the absolute tiniest of

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evidence to either identify a
source or figure out the series

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of actions that occurred within
a scene.

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Yeah, awesome.
So you're 12 years old, you get

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this kit, you start playing with
it, you ruin your, you ruin your

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counters and and then and then,
and then what's the next step?

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Are you always a scientist kind
of guy?

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Is that is that the way your
brain works?

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Yeah.
So I grew up loving science and

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nature.
I had these Audubon books that I

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would go out into the woods.
I grew up on a bunch of wooded

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area in Georgia and north of
Atlanta, and we had a Creek.

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So I would go down to the Creek
and I would catch salamanders

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and crawdads.
And, you know, I would use my

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Audubon books to try and
identify the species.

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And, you know, I'd loved Steve
Irwin, the crocodile Hunter.

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You know, I, I would go around
the woods dressed in khaki

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thinking I was the crocodile
Hunter.

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And so that was at an early age.
I was very much inspired by the

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natural world around me.
And so when I was in the eighth

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grade, I had a science teacher,
Marcy Kogar.

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Marcy, if you're listening to
this, hello.

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Thank you so much for literally
changing my life.

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Any any good teachers?
We absolutely need good teachers

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because a good teacher can have
an influence and impact on the

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world that they might never
know.

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So Marcy Kogar had been going
back to school while she was a

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teacher to get her master's in
forensic chemistry.

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And she was my eighth grade
science teacher and she had, I

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had a textbook, one of the
forensic chemistry textbooks

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with her in class.
And I had been looking at it and

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I became fascinated about it.
And she said, you know, she kind

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of encouraged me about it.
And so I started reading

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everything I possibly could get
my hands on the dealt with

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forensic science.
And I was absolutely infatuated.

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So you know, fingerprint kit
under the Christmas tree.

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And then within the next year, I
was fascinated by blood stain

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pattern analysis by
understanding that we could use

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physics and mathematics to
understand violent how violence

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occurs and using science to
understand that violence.

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So I mean in the.
The coolest thing in the entire

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world.
It really did.

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So you know, I'm in the night.
I can very much.

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I have a very distinct memory of
my 9th grade science class, and

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I was doing a project to show my
class how blood stain pattern

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and analysis worked, and I went
to a small little private

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school.
I look back at what I'm about to

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tell you today and this this
could never happen in today's

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kind of school settings that we
have.

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But I remember having this
pumpkin that I had rigged up

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with aquarium tubing and a pump
so that I can circulate my fake

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blood.
And then I brought this as the

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neck.
And so then I brought this into

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class and I took a kitchen knife
and I cut the neck and I showed

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how the pump, how the pumping
and I was making blood stains,

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you know, in front of a ninth
grade science class, so.

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What did you just say?
Did you teacher love it?

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They loved it, absolutely loved
it.

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I.
Bet they did, by the way,

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because that's creative.
It's such a fun like that.

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That's this is the kind of
assignments we need to

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encourage, I feel like.
Yeah, you know, I never had a

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bad teacher in high school or,
you know, middle school for

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that.
I was always blessed with great

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teachers who really encouraged
me and just let me kind of

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thrive my, you know, beat my own
weird little drum.

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And and really the same thing
for my mom.

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My mom is absolutely the reason
that I am where I am today is

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because she was so encouraging
of everything that I got into.

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You know, I, I, we turned our,
we had a, a detached garage that

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had been converted into an
apartment and my older brother

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lived up top and we turned the
lower level into my own little

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crime lab.
So yeah, at that point I'm

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12/13.
So they so they really leaned

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into it you all. 100%, you know,
really leaned into it and.

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Was your family in law
enforcement?

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No, no, just you.
Yeah, my, my grandfather Bucky,

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he went into civil defense in
the 50s after he finished World

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War 2.
But no, I've, I'm of my

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immediate family.
I'm the only one that decided to

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go to long.
But they they gave you that, by

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the way, that space is not, it's
not.

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So speaking as a teacher and as
an older brother and as now a

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parent, that space is not easy
to give a kid.

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Like, I know it's like people
talk about it a lot, but I feel

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like human nature is to want,
especially like if you're a

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parent, you want your kid to
kind of live the life either

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that you feel like you lived
well or live the life that you

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didn't live better, you know?
And like a parent will typically

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have an idea, like an outline
for the kid what their life is.

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And if that kid wants to
deviate, parents, you know, it's

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hard.
You don't know what to do with

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that, you know?
And so I give a ton of props and

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credit to people that are
willing to give other people the

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space to be themselves and not
trample on them, you know?

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Oh, that was absolutely 100% my
mom.

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That's awesome.
Yeah.

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And yeah, I will for always.
And I've tried, you know, I'm a

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parent myself.
My daughter just graduated high

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school last week.
Congratulations.

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Thank you very much.
Now I just got to get her

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through just got to get her
through college, but that was

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definitely one of the biggest
growing pains and learning

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points for myself as a parent
was that, you know, our kids are

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not us.
So, you know, understanding that

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my learning style and my kind of
viewpoint on education is very

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different from my daughters, you
know, I'm, I did my master, I

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did my undergrad in, you know,
investigated forensics, my

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master's in forensic science and
I'm a PhD researcher in forensic

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science out of Staffordshire
University.

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So education is very much a key
focus point for me, you know,

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personal education.
My daughter's not that way.

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You know, she, she's super
excited to be going in to marine

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sciences down at the college
that she's going to go off to,

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You know, she wants to go be a
shark researcher.

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And hey, if that's what you want
to do, go.

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I will encourage you every
different way that I can because

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that was ultimately what I kind
of had to learn was that our

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kids are going to find their own
way.

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And it is your job as a parent
to just encourage them and to

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support them.
So just to just for your, just

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to, I'm sorry, hop in real
quick.

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I, I know I mentioned this on
the phone recently, but I just

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00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,600
saw that the place I was
mentioning to you, the dolphin

228
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,040
therapy place that I sold my
medical equipment to is looking

229
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,400
for interns for that thing
coming up.

230
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,400
So I'll send you the information
after if you would like for

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00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:47,720
your.
Daughter.

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00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,040
Yeah, absolutely.
Anything to get started is such

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00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,480
a is such a phenomenal way to do
it.

234
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:53,200
That was down in the keys,
right?

235
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,760
It's, well, yeah, but it's the
closest key.

236
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,840
It's Key Largo so.
Hell, maybe I want to go be an

237
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,520
intern.
By the way, I, you know what, I

238
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,440
think that I think it's funny
because we live in a time,

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00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,760
especially with remote work and
you know, I mean, I know that

240
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,200
your schedule at this particular
moment is crazy.

241
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,120
But I think that for a lot of
people, there's a lot more time

242
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,840
and opportunity to kind of chase
these crazy dreams down today

243
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:19,600
than there's ever been before,
you know?

244
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,800
100%.
Yeah, go ahead.

245
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,880
Yeah, please.
No, I mean, I completely agree,

246
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:31,280
you know, But I am by far.
I'm a victim of my own

247
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:38,800
eccentricities, you know, apart
from my full time detective

248
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,040
work, I also run a private
practice firm where I'm a, where

249
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,880
I run an expert witness firm.
So I do private case work for

250
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,800
both prosecution and defence,
doing crimes reconstruction,

251
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:50,240
shooting reconstruction, all
that kind of stuff.

252
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,840
And that is pretty much a full
time job all on its own is of

253
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,920
running a company and then the
PhD thing and all these other

254
00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,400
little projects.
I found myself how do you

255
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,160
balance your time?
What's your what's your typical?

256
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,960
Do you have a typical day or do
you just is every week something

257
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,600
else?
Yeah, so I kind of divide 1.

258
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:13,800
I live and die by my calendar.
I kind of plan my days out down

259
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,200
to like the half hour blocks
because I have to.

260
00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:23,520
So at the Police Department, I
work typically Tuesday through

261
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:28,360
Friday from 9:00 AM to 7:00 PM.
So I work for 10's and then I'm

262
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,240
on call on off hours and my
partner and I split on call

263
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,440
status.
So you know, somebody has to be

264
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,080
available at 3:00 AM to respond
to, you know, something.

265
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,400
So, so that's kind of how that
works.

266
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,360
And I'll kind of go into what an
average day there looks like.

267
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,800
Saturday, Sunday, Monday are
devoted to my private case work

268
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:55,000
in the company and that can be
as short as 3 hours a day or as

269
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,000
deep as 12 to 14 hours a day and
just really depends on the

270
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,840
requirements of the company at
that point and my case caseload

271
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,680
volume.
I stay really freaking busy with

272
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,520
it, which is a good thing.
I'm by no means complaining, I

273
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,360
absolutely love what I do.
Once again, you wouldn't do it.

274
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:11,680
You wouldn't do all this if you
didn't love it.

275
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,040
You.
Know absolutely not.

276
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,880
And then with the PhD work, I
kind of sprinkle it in

277
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,400
throughout.
I'm in the final phases.

278
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,400
I've just provided my first
draft of my dissertation, so

279
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,000
I've got my revision notes.
Got to do some revision work

280
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,920
over the next month, month and a
half, and then I'll submit it be

281
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,560
done with it.
Is there is there a maximum

282
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,640
amount of time that you have to
take to do a PhD?

283
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,480
Or can you take as much time as
you want and sprinkle over next

284
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,920
month of years?
No, there is a minimum and

285
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,120
maximum registration period.
So it depends on if you're full

286
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,280
time or part time.
So I'm a part time researcher.

287
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,520
So the minimum registration
period is five years, which is

288
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,040
I'm at and then the maximum
registration period, I want to

289
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,840
say is 10 years.
It might be 7 though it's I

290
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,760
think it's 10 if you're full
time.

291
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,000
Typically what you see is a
minimum registration period of

292
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,760
about three years, with a
maximum registration between

293
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,760
7:00 to 10:00.
Right.

294
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,440
And I guess that's depending on
how heavy or top your

295
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,400
dissertation is going to be.
Correct.

296
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,480
Right, right, right.
That's really interesting

297
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,320
because one of the things I
mean, I've, I've been thinking,

298
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,280
you know, I've, I've, I've, I'm
always thinking a little bit

299
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,600
about going back to school
because if excuse me for no

300
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,760
other reason other than
teaching, I love teaching and I

301
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,520
would love an opportunity to
teach college students.

302
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,320
And, you know, there's, it's
almost impossible these days to

303
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:39,400
get a job teaching, teaching in
college without a PhD, you know?

304
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:46,680
You know, the PhD thing has been
the most, it has really been the

305
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:52,280
biggest challenge for me, not
just in terms of conducting the

306
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:57,600
actual research itself, but you
truly become a subject matter

307
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:03,080
expert when you do a PhD is, you
know, if you have ever had

308
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,079
imposter syndrome, I highly
recommend you do a PhD because

309
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,400
you'll come out on the other end
being a being an expert in your

310
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,119
field.
So.

311
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:14,079
What do you?
What do you?

312
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:15,880
What's your PhD focusing on?
What do you?

313
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:16,920
What are you going to be
defending?

314
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,680
Yeah, so blood stain pattern
analysis, my dissertation

315
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,960
research specifically has been
in how environmental variables

316
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,160
influence our accuracy of
measurement, and that is across

317
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:30,600
multiple different surface
types.

318
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:36,280
So how does surface roughness,
porosity and other environmental

319
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:41,200
variables kind of affect the
overall stain shape and size?

320
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:46,400
And then there's also a
contingent, which was the the

321
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,320
most novel research component.
And this is where it got a lot

322
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,480
of traction.
I just did an interview with

323
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,680
BBCA couple weeks ago on it.
It was, I did a Astro forensics,

324
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,200
I guess is kind of what I'm
work.

325
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,560
I'm calling it Astro.
Yeah, as in space.

326
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,000
So it was the first space
forensics research, so.

327
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,000
No way.
Let's go.

328
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:09,960
It's so cool.
Yeah, it's super cool.

329
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:12,640
And the story behind it is super
neat, right.

330
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:17,720
So what we ended up doing was
taking the same study that we

331
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,440
were doing here on Earth and
doing that in a zero gravity

332
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,680
environment.
And so how this all started,

333
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,840
this is a super just bizarre.
Yeah, it's a, it's a bizarre

334
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:35,680
series of events.
So years ago, I had gone to my

335
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,760
advisor and I said, hey, I so
back story, I'm a huge space

336
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,280
nerd.
I if you didn't know, I love

337
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:43,440
anything.
Science but I.

338
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,800
Really love talking about this.
OK, I really love space science,

339
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,720
right?
So I'd gone to my advisor and I

340
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,360
said, hey, I'd like to do a
thought experiment as the last

341
00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:57,160
chapter of the research that
takes it into a space

342
00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,480
environment and how blood stain
pattern analysis will be

343
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,800
influenced by that space
environment.

344
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,200
Because here on Earth, gravity
is incredibly pervasive.

345
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,520
It is always with us.
It influences everything that we

346
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,040
examine.
So when you remove that gravity,

347
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,280
how do fluid dynamics affect
blood and blood stain patterns?

348
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,920
I said.
So, you know, I'd like to do it

349
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,480
as a thought experiment.
And what that just meant was is

350
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,520
I would do a pretty exhaustive
literature review of studies

351
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,920
that are dealing with fluid
dynamics and space medicine

352
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,160
already.
And then I would apply those

353
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,960
concepts to a thought experiment
of how blood stamp power

354
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,360
analysis would work.
So as part of that, I'd reached

355
00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:45,440
out to a friend of mine who had
a colleague at NASA's Jet

356
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,240
Propulsion Laboratory in
California, JPL, and she put me

357
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,440
in touch with her.
I was like, hey, I'm looking for

358
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,840
any kind of research studies or
video that I can get my hands on

359
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,800
of fluid dynamic studies on the
ISS.

360
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,960
And so she put me in touch with
somebody who put me into and I

361
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,400
go down this.
So nice that people are willing

362
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:04,560
to do that by the way, isn't it?
It's.

363
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,120
Fantastic.
When you tell somebody just kind

364
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,240
of like, hey, this is what I'm
looking for it.

365
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,840
It never hurts to cold e-mail
somebody because what's the

366
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,080
worst they can tell?
The worst they can tell you is

367
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,360
no, in which case you're exactly
where you are right now.

368
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,240
You have nothing but advantage
to gain.

369
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:29,200
So, you know, be willing to be,
you know, put yourself out.

370
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,960
Willing.
Yeah, be willing to put yourself

371
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,640
out there because what ended up
happening was I got a hold of a

372
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,800
study that was on hemorrhaging
in space.

373
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,880
Right.
So bleeding in space and how to

374
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:45,360
hemorrhage control by a guy?
Yeah, fascinating because,

375
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,480
because, because there's no
gravity, right?

376
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,440
Where's the, how's the
hemorrhage going to rupture?

377
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,400
I guess a man of error, Like
how's he, how's he going to

378
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,400
spread?
You know what's going to happen.

379
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,240
Yeah.
So basically, so if you don't

380
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,400
know when you cut yourself in
space and you start bleeding,

381
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,240
there is no gravitational pull,
right?

382
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,240
So what happens is the fluid
just accumulates in kind of this

383
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,840
mass.
It's called a fluid Dome around

384
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,000
that injury site.
So like as you move, the mass is

385
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,880
going to kind of move with it.
That looks like jello, right?

386
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,880
It's like if you think, if you
think of like a bowl of yellow

387
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:26,280
and how that.
That.

388
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,000
Jiggle, yeah, but it's around
the injury site.

389
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:30,960
Right, right, right.
So let's say I have a cut in my

390
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,560
hands, right.
And then the the blood would

391
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,880
kind of just.
It just oozed out and it would

392
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,760
just stay together because of
surface tension.

393
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,400
So until you have a sufficient
force, like until you move your

394
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,120
hand quick enough and you create
what's called a shear force,

395
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,560
that shear force is what's going
to detach the liquid from your

396
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,200
hand.
So I'd read George's paper on

397
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,440
it.
And so I'd emailed him.

398
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,640
I said, hey, this is what I'm
doing.

399
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,720
I would love if you have any
video that you'd be willing to

400
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,800
let me look at so I can kind of
extrapolate some concepts.

401
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,200
Well, he replied back and he
said, that sounds absolutely

402
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,320
fascinating.
I am actually going to be

403
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:14,040
driving down to Kennedy Space
Center next month for my next

404
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,720
research flight.
Would you like to meet for

405
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,080
coffee while I pass through
Atlanta?

406
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,280
Nice.
Abso freaking lutely I would

407
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,400
like to.
Make you for coffee.

408
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,360
So George and I met at a coffee
shop that was just off the

409
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:29,080
highway not too far from where I
live.

410
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,480
And we proceeded to spend 2
hours talking about all things

411
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,040
space medicine and my research.
And you know, just it was, it

412
00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:41,960
was a great sounding board.
And towards the end of the

413
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,840
conversation, he asked me a
phenomenal question that has

414
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,400
forever changed my life.
If you could do this research

415
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,880
in, in 0 gravity, how would you
do your research?

416
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,240
And so that's such a phenomenal
question because it forces you

417
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,600
to do 2 things.
One, this type of research is

418
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,440
incredibly expensive.
So any kind of microgravity

419
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,240
research, you know, a parabolic
flight arc.

420
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,720
So if you have ever heard the
term the vomit comet, it's a

421
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,600
plane that does a series of
parabolic flights.

422
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,240
And so it induces gravity for
researchers that runs about 40

423
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,760
grand to put anything actually
up into the ISS.

424
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,520
You're talking about millions of
dollars because weight matters.

425
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,000
So you're in confined
environment.

426
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,960
So when you're asked the
question of how would you do

427
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,320
your research, you have to boil
your research down to the

428
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,000
simplest investigative question.
I see.

429
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,760
What are we actually looking at,
right?

430
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,680
And how can we do it in the
simplest terms?

431
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,880
So on the back of a Starbucks
napkin, I kind of sketched out

432
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,200
what I was thinking and he said,
well, I tell you what, if I have

433
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,640
any extra time, if you'll, if
you want to ship me a couple

434
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,800
materials and I have some extra
time, I'll see if I can't do it.

435
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:03,360
And you know, so that was
December of 2021 that he would

436
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:04,880
did that flight.
And unfortunately he didn't have

437
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,520
any extra time.
His real research, you know,

438
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,400
his, his, his research that that
NASA was actually paying for

439
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,720
took priority.
And so it didn't happen.

440
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,760
But he did another series of
flights in May of the following

441
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,720
year.
So six months later and he calls

442
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,760
me and says Zach, I had time and
I was able to get 2 tests out of

443
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,320
it.
How so?

444
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:26,760
When did he call you?
How many years later?

445
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,520
Six months later, so.
Six months later, got you.

446
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:39,520
So in May of 22 and so we've
been able to do 2 tests, which

447
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,680
gave me just enough data to kind
of work with and from there was

448
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,400
able to actually make a study
out of it.

449
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,760
And so that published that
published last year in Forensic

450
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,720
Science International.
I highly recommend anybody

451
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,360
that's interested in it you know
check it out.

452
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,640
Send me a couple of links by the
way, to put in the show no

453
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,400
caption of the stuff that you've
done and I want to read them

454
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,840
myself.
Yeah, what I wasn't expecting

455
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,160
was the kind of the media storm
that that ended up starting.

456
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:13,440
So I have since went on Fox
News, BBC and a variety of

457
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,520
variety of other.
New York Post did a comment on

458
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,200
it, so it was pretty cool to get
some actual.

459
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:22,400
Is that some real like when you
when you when that initially

460
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:23,680
starts rolling?
And do you think it's like a

461
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,320
prank at first?
They like, you know, like what

462
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:30,000
is this or how did that feel?
Yeah, it was definitely surreal,

463
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,120
but gratifying, you know?
You know, when you're doing

464
00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:39,240
novel research like Astro
forensics, you know, people call

465
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,920
you crazy.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it was.

466
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,280
Very much eventually you're
going to.

467
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:44,400
You may as well start now,
right?

468
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,440
That was the whole thought,
right, Is, you know, when you're

469
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:54,800
doing something that is so far
outside the spectrum, it most

470
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,680
people make fun of it because it
sounds, it sounds crazy.

471
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,680
But I'm going to tell you a
little, a little little secret

472
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,360
of of how I try and live my
life.

473
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,080
In order to be exceptional, you
have to be the exception.

474
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,320
Yeah, Right.
So I've never really worried

475
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,160
about what people thought of my
research or thought of my work.

476
00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:19,560
I love what I do.
And if you can have that level

477
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,440
of self-confidence, yeah, then
yeah, go, go for it.

478
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,200
You know, it, it, it, it was
difficult getting it published

479
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,520
because of that.
So I wrote up the study and I

480
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,680
initially had submitted it to
Journal of Forensic Science.

481
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,640
And Journal of Forensic Science
had said that it was the Astro

482
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,520
forensics was immature in its
study and that maybe in a few

483
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,320
years, as it developed, you
know, what they'd consider and

484
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,080
whatnot.
To which, you know, I I laughed

485
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,680
at the response and the denial
because I'm pretty sure that's

486
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,920
what they said to Galileo.
Yeah.

487
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,760
Not not calling myself Galileo.
Wow.

488
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:55,360
That's.
I understand.

489
00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:58,080
Yeah, but I think I understand
what you're trying to say.

490
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,360
But yeah, and, you know, it's
novel for a reason, right?

491
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:05,560
Novel literally means new
research.

492
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:11,520
So, you know, so then I pitched
it to Science and Justice out of

493
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,240
the UK and other journal.
They kind of had the same

494
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,440
responses, that it was a little,
you know, a little nascent,

495
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,000
didn't really kind of fit with
contemporary research.

496
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,880
And then I pitched it to
Forensic Science International,

497
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,720
and they loved it.
There you go.

498
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:32,160
And so, you know, don't.
I've been told no a lot in my

499
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,080
life of different ideas and.
No, it's just a word.

500
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,360
No, it's just a word, you know,
You got to keep plugging away.

501
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:43,320
I work cold cases a lot and in
my cold case investigations.

502
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,160
What's the cold case?
Sorry.

503
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:50,000
So a cold, yeah, a cold case is
any kind of typically it's a

504
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,720
homicide or you can have violent
crimes, But so I work cold case

505
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,560
homicides.
So cold case homicides are

506
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,120
murder investigations where all
leads have been exhausted.

507
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,560
They're typically old cases, so
they can be 20-30 years old that

508
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,560
you're still trying to solve.
Wow.

509
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:14,640
So in the bet, the the only way
that you solve a 30 year old

510
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,120
murder is by having dogged
determination.

511
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,760
Yeah.
And and you know, you're going

512
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,320
to get lab results that don't
help you, you're going to get

513
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,840
negative results and you have to
have the tenacity to be able to

514
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,160
go, OK, that that lab test
didn't work for us to produce a

515
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,560
positive lead.
What's the next one?

516
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,680
Right?
What's our next piece of

517
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,920
evidence that we can try and re
examine?

518
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,280
What's our next lead that we can
try and follow?

519
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,440
What's the next interview that
we can try and go conduct to try

520
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,440
and get that that one piece of
information that is going to

521
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,480
change everything?
Yeah, yeah.

522
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:56,920
So being willing to accept and
disregard no is a superpower.

523
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,640
So you probably so I mean it's
interesting.

524
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,040
Did you you think you learned
that from work or you think

525
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,400
that's what made you good at
work and you knew that already?

526
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,280
Oh, I have no idea.
That's a chicken and egg, kind

527
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:09,320
of.
I know, right, But there's

528
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,320
certain things that people know,
you know, like I know that for

529
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,480
example, I have a very, you
know, similar, similar

530
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,160
experiences where I've been told
no a lot that I've had to like

531
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,280
go alternative routes to try to
get the yes, right.

532
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,000
You know, I think that's
probably a, that is probably a

533
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,840
personal trait that that is
probably something that I, I

534
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:36,240
bring to work.
I grew up kind of a socially

535
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,000
awkward kid.
You know, I didn't have a whole

536
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,120
lot of friends because I was
this weird little eccentric kid,

537
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,880
right?
But the friend group I had, we

538
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,000
were a small little friend
group.

539
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,600
And that that was, and we're
still all best friends today, 30

540
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,200
years later.
That's amazing.

541
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,280
Oh yeah, yeah, your true
friendship is one of the best

542
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:57,840
blessings that we can have in
life.

543
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:06,240
So shout out to my crew where I
was going with that is chicken

544
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,880
before the egg, right?
Yeah, in terms of not being in

545
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,440
terms of not just taking a no
and like kind of figuring things

546
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,680
out because you need to do that
with the science journals, you

547
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,360
need to do that with work.
You need to do that with, you

548
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,640
know, like just.
I think it's a learned, you

549
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:24,080
know, probably a learned thing.
I don't know where I got it

550
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,240
from.
Yeah, Yeah, I think, I think

551
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,520
that I think because I think for
a lot of people, the difference

552
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,400
between success and failure is
who's able to just last another

553
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,880
day, just like one more day.
So it's funny you say one more

554
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,640
day.
Harrison Ford has an amazing

555
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,040
quote that I can't quite
remember off the top of my head,

556
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,520
but that's the summary of it, is
that consistency is success,

557
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,760
right?
Is if you can tell yourself one

558
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,760
more day, right?
And so when I had when I started

559
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,480
my most recent kind of YouTube
channel, a creative endeavor,

560
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,600
that was what I told myself.
I said just you just gotta make

561
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,720
it one more day.
You just gotta shoot one more

562
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,080
episode.
Just shoot, you know, write one

563
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,920
more script and just keep going.
And that was a lot of fun for

564
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,600
me.
That was the creative outlet

565
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,480
that I needed And you know, life
kind of evolves you and changes,

566
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,280
right.
So I started kind of my private

567
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,920
company started picking up, so I
didn't have as much time to

568
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,520
shoot.
And so you kind of figure out

569
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,600
how you evolved through that.
For me it kind of shifted into

570
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,680
writing sub stack articles and I
saw that those are.

571
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,320
Those are I read a couple of
them.

572
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,080
I read a couple of them earlier.
They were they were a lot of

573
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:33,560
fun.
I wanted to actually ask you

574
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,000
about them.
We'll get back to them.

575
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,840
But they're very they're really
cool.

576
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,880
I like them a lot.
Yeah, well, thank you.

577
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,520
Yeah, I've always loved writing
and that was kind of what at

578
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,280
that point, the Science
Detective, that's the YouTube

579
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:53,480
series that that I, I started
last year, year before I wanted

580
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:59,320
to bring forensic science topics
and concepts to an audience,

581
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,120
right.
And, and communicate those

582
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,840
science ideas.
I prefer video, you know, I

583
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,440
prefer visual medium because
this is, you know, it's really

584
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,480
difficult for me to explain a
blood stain pattern to you when

585
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,680
I can just show you a really
cool blood stain pattern.

586
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,320
And same thing with like, you
know, thinking of those concepts

587
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,560
in microgravity.
But it's also, you know, so that

588
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,640
evolves, you know, kind of ran
out of time for, because I had

589
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,680
to, you know, actually do real
casework.

590
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,320
And so that's where I kind of
shifted gears and turned it into

591
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,480
a riding outlet.
And I enjoy that.

592
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:36,800
You know, I'll bounce back and
forth.

593
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,520
You know, the theme and the
concept of the science

594
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,200
detective, more than anything is
what is consistent.

595
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,760
Yes, of course, I know.
So yeah, it's a lot of fun, by

596
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,040
the way.
It's really, really cool.

597
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:52,200
It's really, really cool because
because it's fun to to see

598
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:57,440
because when someone has a
passion and it like they become

599
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,440
an embodiment of a combination
of their own, like personality

600
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,400
and twist and that passion and
like that, like presents it in a

601
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,080
whole.
It's it's, it's one of the most

602
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,920
magical experience.
I think that people love, you

603
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,520
know, and I think that with
enough time and you know, effort

604
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,840
getting out there, like the
quality is going to be there.

605
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,560
If you're authentic, you know,
when you because you're

606
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:24,440
authentic about it, you know,
you can't fake authenticity and

607
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,080
passion.
You can't fake that kind of

608
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,520
stuff.
So when you read it and like you

609
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,160
see all the work you're doing,
I'm like, this guy loves you

610
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,440
know what he does, You know,
like you can, you can detect

611
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,240
that immediately.
Yeah, I my biggest problem is I,

612
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:43,400
I have too many hands on too
many different projects right

613
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,480
now.
You know, my therapist asked me

614
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,720
several months ago.
She's like, what happens if you

615
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,880
don't do them all at the same
time?

616
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,040
I was like, I don't know, my
head explodes.

617
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,360
Yeah.
But it was such a great question

618
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:04,360
that challenged me at that kind
of season in my life was to

619
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,480
really try and focus on once
again, getting back to basic

620
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:14,000
principles of what is the most
important project right now.

621
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,719
Let's get that done so that I
can kind of compound interest my

622
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,040
time and move on to other ones.
Right.

623
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,880
So like I've got right now I've
got three different books I'm

624
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,440
working on that are all at
different phases.

625
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,239
And it's like trying to make a
dent.

626
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,520
Three different dinners at the
same time, right?

627
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,719
You're not you're going to make
a crappy dinner across all three

628
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,360
of them.
Whereas if you just take one

629
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:43,080
project, devote everything into
it, and then kind of go from

630
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,600
there, I kind of equate the idea
if you've ever heard of the

631
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,000
snowball technique with like
paying down debts and stuff like

632
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,159
that, is you devote all your,
you know, financial resources to

633
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:55,040
1.
Project.

634
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,280
Yep.
And then you snowball it to the

635
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,960
next one.
Same thing with your time is,

636
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,680
you know, if you can focus
everything on one project or

637
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,320
endeavor, whatever, then you
kind of compound from there.

638
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,360
Right, right, right, right.
Yeah, it's, it's just, again,

639
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:14,880
it's just a matter of the
discipline of doing it.

640
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,800
You know, I said this yesterday
and I said this today and I'll

641
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,400
and I'll say it again tomorrow.
I think that that in five years

642
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,200
and 10 years from now or even 15
years from now, the difference

643
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,160
between what's going to make
people successful or not is

644
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,160
their ability to be autonomous
and disciplined.

645
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:35,480
And I think that, you know,
like, like what you, what you do

646
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,200
is like the way that you reach
out to people, try to make

647
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,880
something happen, make a
connection.

648
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,760
Do you know anyone else that
would be able to help me move

649
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,960
that on to the next person?
Like we have information.

650
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,160
Information is more easily
achievable than ever.

651
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,520
But connections and discipline
are actually what we're going to

652
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,320
need to actually turn that
information to something

653
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,240
tangible, you know?
Oh, absolutely.

654
00:35:55,240 --> 00:36:00,080
You know, and being in my and
law enforcement and, and that

655
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,080
forensic community for more than
16 1/2 years at this point.

656
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,520
If I run across a problem, you
know, on a scene or dealing with

657
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,400
some kind of analysis or some
kind of hairball thing that I'm

658
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,520
thinking of.
If I don't know the answer, I

659
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,280
can probably get to the answer
within two phone calls is I'll

660
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,880
know somebody that I can call
who will know somebody who knows

661
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,280
the answer, right?
Is.

662
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,720
And that's a lot of times you,
you run into when you're trying

663
00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:32,960
to solve difficult cases like
we'll go back to cold case

664
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,520
homicides.
They're cold for a reason, right

665
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,720
as you have exhausted all
available analytical testing at

666
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:40,480
that point.
So you have to think outside of

667
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:45,640
the box on being able to obtain
that partial DNA profile or

668
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,960
whatever it is because all the
investigators that have touched

669
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,800
that case before, you didn't
think of that, right?

670
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,880
Or this the science and
technology didn't exist at the

671
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:57,920
time, right?
So that's what that's one of the

672
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,840
big things now is we look at
cases that were working cold

673
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:08,000
cases like can we apply any
advanced DNA analysis to this

674
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,400
case, right?
So when you start kind of

675
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:17,720
getting on the fringe of what
modern day forensic science can

676
00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:20,240
do, I'll give you a good
example.

677
00:37:20,240 --> 00:37:25,320
I had a case where I had a
surface that is incredibly

678
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,920
abnormal.
I won't kind of say what that

679
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,000
surface is just because it still
is an active investigation, but

680
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,960
it's a really abnormal surface
that you would never process for

681
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,040
DNA today.
And then you wouldn't think to

682
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,160
look there.
Yeah, you'll, it pushes the

683
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,240
limits of what our capability
is.

684
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,800
You're talking about such a low
level of DNA that may you

685
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,080
wouldn't think to be right.
Yeah, you just wouldn't.

686
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:59,680
Most labs aren't going to try
it, but I had an idea of how we

687
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,600
can do it.
And so I called my main state

688
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,560
crime lab.
I said, hey, is this something

689
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,280
you can do?
Is this something that we we can

690
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,520
do in doing it through this
process?

691
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,680
And they said no, that that's
not possible.

692
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,400
It falls outside of their
validation protocols.

693
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,080
Excuse, excuse, excuse.
So then I contacted a good

694
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,480
colleague of mine.
He runs a private crime lab shop

695
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:32,640
out of California and he's kind
of my sounding board when I have

696
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,800
crazy snowball, you know, crazy
hair brained ideas.

697
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,400
And I called him, I said, hey,
I've got this type of evidence

698
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,480
and I want to get DNA off of it.
And here's how I'm thinking we

699
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,360
can do it.
Is that something we can try?

700
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,360
And what I love about him is
he'll always say doesn't hurt to

701
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,600
try, you know, because he he's
going to charge me for it,

702
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:54,880
right?
So I mean, he's got, you know,

703
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,800
once again, you have nothing but
advantage.

704
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:01,880
You know there's only upside.
You know if at most.

705
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,320
If at most.
Yeah, if at most the, it fails

706
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,960
to be able to develop a, you
know, suitable profile or any

707
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,280
kind of partial profile, then
you're exactly in the same place

708
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,480
that you were already.
So I sent this, this item out to

709
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,560
him and it worked right.
Amazing.

710
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,880
We we ended up generating
something off of it that

711
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,800
everyone else said that you
couldn't do.

712
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:32,120
So that that once again comes
back to being able to be not

713
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,120
just tenacious, but innovative
thinking, being able to think.

714
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:37,920
Yeah.
Being able to think outside the

715
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:44,400
box and just don't don't care
what people think man, you know,

716
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,600
have.
You have you ever thought about

717
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,280
heading out?
I know this.

718
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,760
I mean, I'm only, I'm only going
to say this because I'm super,

719
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,840
super interested in this whole
like era and time period and top

720
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,320
and like everything about it.
But you head out to California

721
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:03,280
to like LA to like where like
the whole Manson family was.

722
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,560
And like there's a lot of
there's a lot of of, you know,

723
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,520
deaths apparently that were
associated with the family that

724
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,960
were never actually closed up
cases because they didn't have

725
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,160
the evidence.
Can you hear me All right, by

726
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:18,840
the way?
Well, yeah, I can hear you.

727
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,160
OK, yeah.
And so there's a great book

728
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:23,880
called Chaos.
I don't know if you ever heard

729
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,160
of it or read it by a guy named
Tom O'Neill.

730
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,800
And he started as an he's an
investigative journalist and,

731
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:33,920
and he started by writing a
piece for the 30 year

732
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,120
anniversary for the Manson
murders in the, you know, 95.

733
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:42,720
And he's supposed to write a
news news article and it turns

734
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:46,880
into a 20 year project.
And he wrote this enormous book,

735
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,040
incredible, not enormous, but
incredible book that's just so

736
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,720
detailed, Rich about about
Manson, all the potential

737
00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:54,800
directions that were that were
associated with him.

738
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,920
And he doesn't have any kind of
he's missing evidence.

739
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,240
He's missing a lot of, you know,
either evidence or files and

740
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:03,880
stuff like that.
There's.

741
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:05,240
A lot of that's one of the
whole.

742
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,400
Area.
You know, that's one of the most

743
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,840
difficult things about working
cold cases is over years, over

744
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,880
decades, evidence gets lost,
evidence deteriorates, evidence

745
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,680
gets accidentally destroyed.
You know, or people are late or

746
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,960
people, or the technology has
not been updated and people

747
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,720
haven't come back to look at it
again, you know?

748
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,480
Yeah.
It's really interesting.

749
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,040
I mean, do you ever work with
investigative journalists and

750
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:29,960
stuff like that to kind of try
to figure out like.

751
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:35,680
Not within my government
casework, just, I mean, there's,

752
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:40,480
there's a pretty hard line there
between, you know, being able to

753
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,480
talk about criminal
investigations with media.

754
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,720
But what if, what if someone
comes up to you and says, hey, I

755
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:51,080
have this story I'm working on.
I need help finding some

756
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,320
evidence, you know, in terms of
XY and Z evidence, you know,

757
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,600
murder, DNA or whatever.
Yeah.

758
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,920
So as long as it's not a
conflict with my current

759
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:02,560
casework, you know, So as long
as it's not, you know, and by

760
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,840
any way that I represent, I
recently did that for a

761
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,720
documentary series of a pretty
infamous case, cold case from

762
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:14,280
the 60s here in Atlanta.
And so I just did a piece with

763
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,920
them to, I'm not going to say
just because that documentary

764
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,920
series is currently in
production.

765
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:21,360
OK, fine.
Let me know.

766
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,800
Let me know when it comes.
Out Yeah, yeah, it it'll be it

767
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,760
should be airing in in October.
That's exciting.

768
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,080
I need to set a.
Reminder yeah, it's super

769
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,040
exciting, but they, but there's
the same thing is, you know, it

770
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,960
was a a private investigator and
investigative journalist who

771
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,040
were shooting this and they were
deep diving into this case and

772
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,280
they reached out to me because
of we just closed a cold case

773
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,520
with my agency and they wanted
my opinion and thoughts on this

774
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,520
particular case.
And so that was that was a neat

775
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,440
opportunity and a fascinating
look into, you know, this case

776
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,240
from the 60s.
Cool.

777
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,400
So I'm excited to hear.
I'm excited to find out about

778
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,080
it.
I'm really excited because I

779
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:02,960
love that whole era.
I love like 60s.

780
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,560
America, to me, is one of the
most fascinating points in time.

781
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,280
Ever.
I very much feel the same about

782
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,200
the 50s and 60s, right?
Is that whole concept of

783
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,280
retrofuturism?
Yes.

784
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,360
I think I may have been born in
the wrong era.

785
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:22,320
You know what?
I feel the same way.

786
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,720
But I actually think that for
people like us that feel like we

787
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:26,760
were born in the wrong era, we
were probably meant to just

788
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:28,760
carry over the spirit of that
era into this one.

789
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,600
You know, actually, and maybe
that's what it is right is maybe

790
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,680
it's the spirit that I well,
apart from the architectural and

791
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,000
like just like the beautiful
design concepts of that era.

792
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:45,320
But the you have this post World
War 2 excitement and enthusiasm

793
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:50,560
and this innovation that really.
Explosion of creativity.

794
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:56,000
Yeah, absolutely.
And I don't know, to me, I, I, I

795
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,960
look at that and it just seems a
little different from our

796
00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:05,280
current techno, whatever it is
that we're currently in.

797
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,120
I would love to see a blending
of the two and I'd love to see

798
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,080
that kind of those design, same
design concepts.

799
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,360
I think that's coming up.
I think that's coming up, I

800
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:14,880
hope.
I think so.

801
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:20,320
Yeah, the the reason why I think
that is because I think that the

802
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:26,640
50s and 60s were kind of a
relatively similar in the sense

803
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,040
that there was a streak of anti
authoritarianism that kind of

804
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,400
was driving the underlying
motivation.

805
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,760
Like a rejection of the whole
militaristic World War 2, tough

806
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,600
parents kind of culture where
you're supposed to live a

807
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,320
straight proper life.
And, and a lot of people, you

808
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,160
know, wanted to pursue their own
thing.

809
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,880
And, and at that time, you know,
trust in institutions had

810
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,240
collapsed, you know, or in in
many, many ways.

811
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,520
And, and I think that we're
experiencing a similar thing

812
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,600
where we have all the technology
and intelligence and creativity.

813
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,880
And in the last couple of years
it has been a lot, you know,

814
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:02,320
lack of trust in institutions.
And almost like I was scrambling

815
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,280
to try to re establish like
what's going, you know, who's

816
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,640
going to emerge as like the new
trusted, creative, intelligent,

817
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,680
honest, authoritative
perspective and and everyone's

818
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,080
kind of scrambling for it at one
time.

819
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:16,640
You know, it's really, really
interesting.

820
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,520
And I think that that's going
to, I think that's what's going

821
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,000
to lead to creative and and
cultural blossoming, I hope.

822
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,600
I agree.
We're at this unique point as a

823
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:34,800
society where you have such a
hard division of political

824
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:40,720
ideologies and societal
ideologies, right is everyone

825
00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:48,600
has a very firm opinion on how
our society should look and be

826
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:53,880
shaped and be run.
And that happens to be meeting

827
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,840
at a time point when we're also
at this technological

828
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,040
revolution.
With ground breaking ground with

829
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,960
every day is just another.
Oh, it's fascinating.

830
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,800
You know, it's, it's I love
being in the future.

831
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:11,160
I can't wait for my flying car.
But you have these all these

832
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,880
roads that are starting to merge
at the same point, right?

833
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,880
And I have no idea what the next
two or three years are going to.

834
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,400
Look, I I I'm excited, though.
I don't know, but I.

835
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,000
Choose to just like Doctor Who,
I choose to be an eternal

836
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,720
optimist.
So regardless of who you voted

837
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:38,040
for or how you what you think of
our political parties at at the

838
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:43,320
ground level of our society, I
choose to see the good, which is

839
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,600
very difficult to do in my
career.

840
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,520
But yeah.
How do you how do you keep that

841
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:49,520
up?
How do you maintain that?

842
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,160
Oh.
Is it just like you just choose

843
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,440
to kind of see the goodness that
you put out into the world and

844
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:58,680
you see it kind of come back to
you?

845
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:06,320
I think so.
You know, I, I have been, I've

846
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:11,720
investigated tons of really just
horrific scenes over the years

847
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:15,760
that, you know, do leave some
mental scars.

848
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:18,280
I'll be the first one to tell
you that, you know, I was

849
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,840
involved in a shooting pretty
early on in my career.

850
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,760
And then that was followed by,
you know, working lots of

851
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,320
horrific child murders and stuff
like that, that had a ultimate

852
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,960
impact on like post traumatic
stress and PTSD and all that

853
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,680
kind of stuff.
So it took me several years to

854
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:41,360
try and understand how, how that
kind of my, my personal outlook

855
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,560
was and how it evolved and
developed for me.

856
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:49,440
I nowadays I, I work things very
academically, very clinically is

857
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:54,480
the best way to try and describe
that, you know, So when I go and

858
00:47:54,480 --> 00:48:00,120
work, you know, a terrible
scene, it, it's just a, it's

859
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,840
just a scene to me.
I'm very much disembow or not

860
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:05,160
disembodied.
Disassociated.

861
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,960
Disassociate from the emotional
context of that scene.

862
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,440
So let's can we talk about that
a little bit?

863
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:13,720
Is that OK?
Yeah, absolutely.

864
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,360
So I did, I did want to get to
this.

865
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:18,360
This is one of the many topics
that I wanted to get to.

866
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:23,880
But yeah, the, the what some
things that you've experienced,

867
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,720
I guess earlier in your career,
things that help shape you.

868
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:35,040
How do how do you know, how do
people doing public service, you

869
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:39,200
know, carry the weight of the
responsibility that you carry

870
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,280
and what do you do to deal with
it and stuff like that.

871
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,720
And I would love for you,
honestly, I don't care what

872
00:48:43,720 --> 00:48:45,240
direction you go.
I just want to hear what you

873
00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:48,040
think about all that.
So take it away please.

874
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,560
Yeah, when I first started in
law enforcement, mental health.

875
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,760
What's Atlanta like, sorry, in
terms of law enforcement, in

876
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,040
terms of like what do you
typically see?

877
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:57,760
What kind of crime do you
typically see in Atlanta?

878
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,360
Like I know for example, certain
places are more prone, you see

879
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,960
drugs more often or some places
are more geared towards

880
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,040
prostitution or.
Violent.

881
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,600
I mean, do you have it all in
Atlanta?

882
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,960
You have everything from violent
crime to human trafficking to

883
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,600
drugs.
I mean, I work for an agency

884
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,920
that is in the metro Atlanta
area, so I don't work for

885
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:19,560
Atlanta proper.
I see.

886
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,160
But it's the same concept,
right?

887
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,680
It just kind of spreads out.
So you have very much a diverse

888
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,520
selection of crime types.
OK.

889
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,840
But yeah, I mean, when I first
started in law enforcement, we,

890
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,160
you didn't really talk about
mental health.

891
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:41,200
You just I, I very much came up
under a man up and kind of

892
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,000
toughen it out and, you know,
you just don't talk about you

893
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,680
just move on to your next, your
next assignment, you know, your

894
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,600
next tasking that you got to
handle.

895
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:55,400
And that slowly evolved and
changed over my career.

896
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:59,040
Thank God for the better, you
know, law enforcement, public

897
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,040
safety in general.
So law enforcement,

898
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:05,200
firefighters, communications and
corrections have an incredibly

899
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:09,080
high suicide rate.
Last year, more cops committed

900
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,280
suicide than were killed in the
line of duty.

901
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,440
No way.
Yeah.

902
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,080
So it is we we are more likely
to die by our own hands than by,

903
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,920
you know, a bad guy.
And that's because, oh, it's

904
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:27,560
absolutely horrendous.
Thankfully, within the past 10

905
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,440
years, that has very much made a
shift.

906
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,560
You know, the concept of
destigmatizing mental health was

907
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,960
a big thing with that
normalizing the conversation

908
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,080
about mental health.
You know, going out to it's very

909
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,280
difficult to try and discuss and
talk about some of the scenes

910
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,880
that we go to with somebody who
has no context or understanding

911
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,600
of it, right?
Is I can't really tell you what

912
00:50:55,200 --> 00:51:00,440
you know, digging up with your
hands a murdered 4 year old

913
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:04,480
feels like or.
But that's stuff that you that

914
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,960
you guys have to deal with.
Yeah, I can very much think of

915
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:12,040
the day before Christmas of 2013
where that was what I was doing

916
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:18,960
is, you know, having to dig up a
fresh, shallow grave of a child

917
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,760
and that that is and you.
Take that whole you, take that

918
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,720
with you forever.
No, I mean, yeah.

919
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:27,360
I mean, that was what, 12 years
ago, 13 years ago, something

920
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,040
like that.
And I can still very much see

921
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:31,960
the fog of the woods that I was
in.

922
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:36,720
And, you know, I can go right
back to it over time, time, time

923
00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:40,680
dulls it, right?
But it, it's a compounding

924
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:42,160
thing, right?
Because then you're moving on to

925
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,560
your next case.
Yeah, ultimately that all caught

926
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:47,840
up with me.
So that how do you deal with it?

927
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,240
It's kind of dependent upon the
individual per Everyone handles

928
00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:55,640
it differently, right?
You know, if you handle it in a

929
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,400
really positive light, you're
probably working out and

930
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,040
exercising because exercise is
incredibly helpful for mental

931
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,080
health.
You're prioritizing doing that,

932
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:11,200
right?
I try, I try to once again, we

933
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:14,160
come back to time, I try and
work out at least two to three

934
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:18,440
times a week that that has
definitely not been the case

935
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:22,160
over the past month and a half
because my basement has been

936
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,840
under a remodel.
So I haven't had that's been my

937
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,440
excuse is what that is.
I got you.

938
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:31,360
Sounds like a good one.
Yeah, Yeah, I think so.

939
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,640
So, you know, that's a healthy
way of doing it, finding those

940
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,240
positive, healthy outlets with
your family, stuff like that.

941
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,840
Because then there's the
negative outlet, right?

942
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:49,160
There is, you know, alcoholism,
Yep, alcoholism, you know,

943
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:55,720
substance abuse, those really
negative behaviors that can

944
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,920
increase risk, right?
So buying, you know, really

945
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:03,120
crazy things and you know,
gambling and all those different

946
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,640
vices can be so easy because
it's giving us that dopamine

947
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,520
hit, right?
What I mean, that's not new

948
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,600
novel to just law enforcement.
Everyone is constantly looking

949
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:16,440
for that dopamine hit to take
their mind off of their own

950
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,080
individual stresses and
problems.

951
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,680
My baseline and my stresses and
problems are just a little

952
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,360
different from your stresses and
problems, right?

953
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,920
Doesn't mean that we're not both
dealing with stresses and

954
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,240
problems.
It's just yours.

955
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:34,200
May be, you know, you know, you
you had a bad day and you know,

956
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,040
you're you're under a lot of
stress at work and you know,

957
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,280
because you got to get, you
know, different expense reports

958
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,240
out or, or whatever normal, you
know, the normal person does.

959
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:44,800
My bad day looks a way freaking
different than that.

960
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:53,080
So that's the the dicotomy there
for me and my career.

961
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:58,280
I went down a, you know, a
really, it crept up on me and I

962
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,840
didn't even realize it right,
so.

963
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,080
Because it's because it happened
slowly or in smaller in small

964
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:09,040
bites. 100% right.
So I was when I was involved in

965
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:13,040
a shooting back in 2013.
What happened?

966
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:18,720
A friend of mine at an agency
north of us had stopped a car

967
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,360
for a license plate violation.
As he was walking up to the car,

968
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,320
the guy gets out and shoots him
seven times.

969
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,200
By the grace of God, he ends up
surviving.

970
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,040
And.
So, so this guy then flees down

971
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,480
South that down the highway and
our agency ends up picking him

972
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,200
up.
I'm a new word.

973
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,960
I'm a, you know, less than one
month detective.

974
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,880
Then like any good detective, I
was, you know, just leaving

975
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,600
dinner and I end up in this car
chase and shooting with this

976
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:49,920
with this guy who tried killing,
you know, a friend of mine tried

977
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,200
killing me and a lot, you know,
several other officers.

978
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:54,280
What was his story?
Was he on?

979
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,880
Was he on drugs?
Was he part of a was he a crime?

980
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,840
Was he a gang man?
What was what was the situation?

981
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:01,800
He was in a mental health
crisis.

982
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,040
He was basically going out
looking for.

983
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,000
A fight, a lot of that.
Yeah, yeah.

984
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,440
I mean normal people who aren't
having mental health crises

985
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:14,320
don't try and obsolete officers.
Yeah, you could be an

986
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,600
aggressive, you know, like you
could be.

987
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,040
You don't have to be having a
mental break to be to be acting

988
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,160
violently or aggressively
necessarily.

989
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,080
Yeah, absolutely.
That's correct.

990
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,040
Yeah.
You know, so we end up in, you

991
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,880
know, a hellacious gunfight.
He ends up getting killed, you

992
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:35,880
know, and thank, thank God Dave
survives.

993
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,880
So that was pretty early on.
I was 24 years old at the time.

994
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,080
That's really young.
So what, what what are you

995
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:43,760
experiencing?
So are you are you?

996
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:49,440
I'm only I'm just curious about
like I started two months ago

997
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,360
doing jiu Jitsu, right, Just,
you know, totally.

998
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,160
Thank you very much.
It's a lot of fun.

999
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,360
It's again being the crap out of
right and.

1000
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,280
And getting twisted up into like
looking like a pretzel.

1001
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:01,640
Oh yeah.
Oh, yeah.

1002
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:03,680
You know, and there's and
there's and there's two or three

1003
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:05,960
times where especially.
And it's interesting starting

1004
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,160
this kind of later in my life
because it's a totally new

1005
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:10,960
experience.
My body is not used to any of

1006
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,440
that.
And on the way home from my

1007
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:18,560
second class, I, I, my whole
body, I, I, I was driving home,

1008
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,560
my whole body was shaking and
like, my, like, I was just going

1009
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:26,160
through this massive physical.
Yeah, so I'm.

1010
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,320
Not sure whether it's a trauma
or shock or what, right?

1011
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,720
But like if you guys are
shaking, I'm on the wheel and

1012
00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:33,680
like, I can't.
And that's just with a couple of

1013
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,280
friendly guys that just want to
teach me some moves that I

1014
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:37,960
happen to be taking falls in the
wrong way.

1015
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:41,240
You know, like you can't imagine
being 24 year olds and, and

1016
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:45,760
being in this world.
So at that point, your body is

1017
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,600
undergoing a fight or flight or
freeze response.

1018
00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:52,800
And so now I kind of teach about
Physiology and neurology of

1019
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:57,520
stress and Combat Stress, right?
And so within those first couple

1020
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:02,800
seconds, as soon as you are
exposed to a stimulus that you

1021
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,600
perceive to be advantage, you
know, disadvantage to your

1022
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,920
health, you know, such as
somebody shooting at you or

1023
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:14,600
being twisted up like a pretzel
and getting into a fight, your

1024
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:16,560
body is going to start dumping
hormones, right?

1025
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:18,800
So epinephrine, neuro
epinephrine gets dumped into the

1026
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,880
bloodstream and that is going to
kind of start that adrenaline

1027
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,240
response.
So we're going to start

1028
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,920
experiencing heightened
increased heart rate, increased

1029
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,720
respiratory rate because we're
trying to get more oxygen into

1030
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,160
our blood for our brain to be
able to process these things.

1031
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,760
Yeah.
You know, your blood's gonna

1032
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,120
start kind of getting pulled
away from your limbs and towards

1033
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:41,800
your core.
That's why you start kind of

1034
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,000
getting those shaking.
And then you're gonna have, you

1035
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:48,000
know, cortisol being introduced
into your, into your bloodstream

1036
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:49,680
so they can try and level it
out.

1037
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:54,480
But yeah, you know, your body
undergoes a crazy chain reaction

1038
00:57:55,960 --> 00:58:00,440
just in terms of blood chemistry
during those kind of responses.

1039
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:05,760
Not to mention, you know, the
mental health component of after

1040
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,600
the fact, right, of anything
like post traumatic stress or

1041
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,880
anxiety and you know,
depression, stuff like that.

1042
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,360
For me, I, I had a hard time
sleeping after that in terms of

1043
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,360
like falling asleep.
So I was diagnosed with acute

1044
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,760
post traumatic stress as well as
pre insomnia.

1045
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,240
That's just a really fancy way
of saying I had a hard time

1046
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,600
falling asleep because my brain
was going 1000 miles an hour.

1047
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,000
So have you?
What do you, what do you think

1048
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,440
about the, the research There's,
and there's I guess a good

1049
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:40,080
amount of it, although it's not
really done so much in the

1050
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,400
states about PTSD and
psychedelics and stuff like that

1051
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,560
and using it to use it.
Like, do you think that that's

1052
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:51,480
that should be something that we
look to use for our law

1053
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:55,680
enforcement and our, you know,
and our veterans and, and the

1054
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:57,480
people that you know, and the
people that are on the front

1055
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,280
lines?
Yeah, You know, so I have, I

1056
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:04,760
mean, similarly you have, you
know, listened to quite a few

1057
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:07,160
podcast.
You know, I think Sean Ryan

1058
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:08,800
talks a lot about it on his
show.

1059
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:13,120
Oh yeah, you know, so he there
is definitely something.

1060
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,040
He's the hero for talking about
it the way he does, by the way.

1061
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,000
100%, you know, shout out to
Sean Ryan.

1062
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,640
You know, you're, you're you
very much normalize the

1063
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,760
conversation that is needed both
in the veteran community and in

1064
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:28,960
the public safety community.
So I very much admire that about

1065
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:30,680
him.
He's a hero, I think.

1066
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:36,320
You know, I think that it
definitely merits study,

1067
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:40,440
rigorous scientific study in
terms of what the long term

1068
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,600
effects are, whether you know,
if you're at that point with

1069
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,720
post traumatic stress or
cumulative post traumatic

1070
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:52,640
stress, you probably aren't
going to be in a duty ready

1071
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:57,240
status to where you can.
I mean, maybe you can, I don't

1072
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,280
know.
Can't can't imagine how much how

1073
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:04,440
much worse is it than the PTSD
that keeps law enforcement

1074
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:09,440
officers up every night that you
know, like how much you know, I

1075
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,800
mean, and down the line, how
much does what we had this does

1076
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,800
the status quo compound and how
much is it like you said, you

1077
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,840
know, more more deaths by suit
by your own hands than by than

1078
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:23,440
than in the field.
I'd rather seek interesting and

1079
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:27,720
hopefully helpful realities than
than alcohol, you know?

1080
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:32,120
Oh, yeah.
You know, if DMT is helpful and

1081
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:38,120
and better than you know, Yeah.
You went with Coors.

1082
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,400
I went with Jack.
You know, my, my mine was Crown

1083
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:42,120
Royal.
Like I loved Crown Royal.

1084
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:43,440
Do you?
Do you still?

1085
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,040
Do you still drink?
No, I quit drinking a couple

1086
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:50,000
years ago.
I quit drinking I guess probably

1087
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,560
3 or 4 years ago now.
And not, not because of not

1088
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:56,560
because of this, you know, I
quit drinking because I wanted

1089
01:00:56,560 --> 01:01:00,600
to quit smoking.
And quitting smoking was by far

1090
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,560
one of the hardest things that
I, I personally ever did.

1091
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:07,640
And so I had very much had this
association with the two.

1092
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:09,600
You know, when I drank, I wanted
a cigarette.

1093
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,800
And you know, so best way, the
best discipline I had was it's a

1094
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:15,800
much.
More, it's a way healthier

1095
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:17,960
outlook.
I mean, cutting out drinking and

1096
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:20,840
smoking in one go is just.
Spectacular for you?

1097
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,480
Yeah, it very much was.
And you know then I wanted to.

1098
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:29,880
That was very much when I really
started kind of feeling that I

1099
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:35,440
wanted to level up.
And you know, Jocko, if you've

1100
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:40,120
ever listened to Jocko, yeah,
Jocko's podcast, he is adamant

1101
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,080
about that.
There is nothing good that comes

1102
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,240
out of alcohol.
And I could not agree with him

1103
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:46,520
more about that.
Having gone through everything

1104
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:51,160
I've gone through in my career,
you know, that alcohol only, it

1105
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,400
almost cost me my job.
It almost cost me lots of

1106
01:01:54,400 --> 01:02:00,680
different things because I was
trying to medicate this post

1107
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,320
traumatic stress and, and trying
to sleep in a really unhealthy

1108
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:08,400
way.
So you know, anyone listening

1109
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,840
out there, you know, I, I
encourage you to really question

1110
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:14,120
what does alcohol actually bring
you?

1111
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:19,120
And if you are honest with
yourself, the answer is a sum of

1112
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:20,760
0.
You know, but.

1113
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,400
I think that it's a little bit
more and by the way, I'm

1114
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,480
certainly not a heavy advocate
of alcohol period.

1115
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:31,640
I do think that for people to
have a drink or two as a social

1116
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:35,600
lubricant, it could be could be
like once a week or once every

1117
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,800
couple of weeks could be a
massive benefit to themselves to

1118
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:40,960
help them get over some kind of
social hump that they have.

1119
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,320
I think but but but physically,
you know, but like to use it as

1120
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,520
a remedy or to use it as a
medication is is.

1121
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:51,880
A by no means, don't get me
wrong, I am not this anti

1122
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:54,800
alcohol purist.
If you want to go get, you know,

1123
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:56,720
have drinks.
I envy you.

1124
01:02:56,760 --> 01:03:01,040
I very much miss it.
I went, you know, but and I had

1125
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,480
always told myself that, you
know, after I quit smoking and

1126
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,560
been clean from smoking for a
year, that I can go back to

1127
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,120
drinking it.
It's not like I have this like I

1128
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:11,040
can't do it.
No, it was just a personal

1129
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:12,480
choice to wear.
Yeah, yeah, totally.

1130
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,520
And, and, and the longer that
it, it kind of persisted, the

1131
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:19,080
more I was like, hey, you know,
I don't need this in my life.

1132
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:22,200
You know, I feel a lot better
not having it in my life.

1133
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:25,440
You know, I haven't, you know, I
don't wake up with hangovers or

1134
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,360
anything like that.
So that, that is helpful, you

1135
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,160
know, with the using it as a
social lubricant.

1136
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:32,720
I definitely understand that,
right.

1137
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:35,840
But then what are you doing
there?

1138
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:42,000
You're using alcohol to remedy a
personal problem and, and that

1139
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,320
is some kind of social anxiety,
right?

1140
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:50,080
So, so I just with anybody, I, I
encourage you understand its

1141
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:52,640
place in your life and whether
or not it's actually needed,

1142
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,560
right?
Because I can tell you I have of

1143
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:04,480
at least in my career, I have
seen so many adverse actions and

1144
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:08,520
incidents that alcohol was a
contributing factor, whether

1145
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:14,840
that was a DUI or fatal wrecks
or murders, you know, all

1146
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:19,640
because alcohol was the
inhibitor, you know of good

1147
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,280
choice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1148
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:26,680
I'm, I totally agree with you,
you know, and I again, I'm not,

1149
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,800
I'm not, I'm definitely not
advocate for it.

1150
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,120
I'm definitely not an advocate
against it in a healthy way.

1151
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,960
I happen to know that even for
myself, as I became more mature,

1152
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:41,640
I realized that it alcohol tends
to lead me to lead me to down

1153
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:45,800
more immature behaviors and
paths that just don't align with

1154
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:50,040
the way the decisions and ways
to of interacting that I want to

1155
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:52,600
be, you know, that, you know,
the way that I am.

1156
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,320
But you know, and for example,
like you said, I do have social

1157
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:00,120
anxiety and something, you know,
and if I'm in a new setting and

1158
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,240
I'm at a wedding and I've never,
I haven't met anyone around me,

1159
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:05,440
then a drink or two will, you
know, get me talking to one

1160
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:06,800
person over and say, what are
you up to?

1161
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,200
If you know?
And I'm, it's funny because if

1162
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:12,200
once you start talking to me,
then I'll jump right in.

1163
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:16,880
But to make that initial like
initial hello, yeah, kills me,

1164
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:26,400
you know, But do is there a lot
of corruption in in in law

1165
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:27,880
enforcement that you've
experienced?

1166
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:30,160
No, it's not like what you see
on TV's.

1167
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,960
No, it's not.
No, no, that, that is a very,

1168
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:38,720
very, very small percentage of
what you know of law

1169
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:40,360
enforcement.
Gotcha.

1170
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:44,120
So majority, majority of are you
are you suspicious of people

1171
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:48,160
being corrupt or not typically?
Not typically, just because that

1172
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:49,880
that is so incredibly rare,
right?

1173
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:53,360
Right, and do.
No, that's, that's not to say

1174
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:57,600
that it doesn't happen.
You know, Al, there was a story

1175
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:01,000
a couple weeks ago about an
entire small Police Department

1176
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:02,920
out in Alabama that was super
corrupt.

1177
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:10,240
But once again, that that's
you're talking about a series of

1178
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:16,000
actions and events that are so
statistically small compared.

1179
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:18,360
You know, it's just like the
whole concept of excessive

1180
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:22,760
force.
You know, if you look at, you

1181
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:27,280
know, that became really
obviously a highlighted social

1182
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:32,960
perspective not just during
Ferguson back in what 2016, but

1183
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:36,120
also with George Floyd, you
know, back in 2020.

1184
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:39,240
I mean, actually this week is
the anniversary, right?

1185
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:43,360
You know, the five year
anniversary of George Floyd and

1186
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,600
and that was a horrific thing,
but and it brought, but it

1187
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:52,040
brought police excessive police
violence in into the spotlight,

1188
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:54,920
right.
And what most people don't

1189
01:06:54,920 --> 01:07:00,080
realize is that out of the 50
plus billion law enforcement

1190
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:05,240
citizen encounters a year that
the actual likelihood of it

1191
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:12,320
resulting in in the sustained
allegation of excessive force or

1192
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,920
police brutality is less than a
thousandth of a percent, right?

1193
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:21,320
It is where it is something that
is so astronomically small you

1194
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:24,520
you have a higher likelihood of
being struck by lightning

1195
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:27,760
multiple times.
Really than by having that

1196
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:28,840
really.
Yeah.

1197
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:30,240
Oh yeah.
Wow.

1198
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:32,680
Wow.
I didn't know that.

1199
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:34,880
That's amazing to hear, you
know?

1200
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:37,080
Yeah, I was living in Seattle at
the time.

1201
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,760
When?
When the riots were happening.

1202
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,840
Yeah, and.
I mean, I was living here in

1203
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:46,480
Atlanta, and Atlanta was burning
because of Rashard Brooks, so.

1204
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:49,120
What was So what?
So what what what was that like

1205
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:53,880
was especially from.
I'm sorry, does first of all,

1206
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:56,800
does law enforcement or does, I
guess doing your public work

1207
01:07:58,080 --> 01:07:59,880
restrict you in any way from
your private work?

1208
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:01,840
Like when you told them that
you're going.

1209
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:04,240
Yeah, so you and you told them
that you want to open your own

1210
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:06,040
thing, open your own shop, what
they say.

1211
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:08,800
Yeah.
My agreement with my agency is

1212
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:12,040
that I just won't work any
private cases within the county

1213
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:15,840
that I work in, right, Because
that would be a conflict of

1214
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:18,560
interest.
So I just don't work any private

1215
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,359
cases within Fulton County,
which is the county that

1216
01:08:21,359 --> 01:08:23,960
Atlanta's in.
But, you know, all the

1217
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:27,359
surrounding counties, you know.
And so, you know, in my private

1218
01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:29,960
case work, I do everything
nationally, right?

1219
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:33,120
So I've got case work in
everything from Georgia to

1220
01:08:33,319 --> 01:08:36,160
Alaska and Texas and Illinois.
Is that all there?

1221
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:39,279
I do, Really.
Yeah.

1222
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:41,960
Awesome.
So what's that like?

1223
01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:45,319
That's one of the best.
That's probably, in my opinion,

1224
01:08:45,319 --> 01:08:50,760
the best perk of opening up my
own shop was, you know, the

1225
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:55,880
opportunity to travel and meet
and network with new clients and

1226
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:58,439
new attorneys.
You know, I doing both

1227
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:04,720
prosecution and defense casework
makes me, it gives me a unique

1228
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:08,279
perspective in my government
casework because I am a defense

1229
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:11,120
expert.
So I understand kind of I've

1230
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:15,479
learned the thought process, the
thought processes behind what a

1231
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:19,000
defense attorney is looking at
in terms of how they approach a

1232
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:22,840
case and mitigate the case.
And that has made my government

1233
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:25,520
case work a lot better, more
roll around, I think.

1234
01:09:26,359 --> 01:09:27,160
How so?
Can you tell me can?

1235
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:29,720
You tell me the difference in
like, I guess philosophies,

1236
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:31,520
perspectives, coming at
something from a defensive

1237
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:35,560
perspective or as a prosecutor.
Like what do you mean?

1238
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:38,439
Like what if I were hiring you
and I was a prosecutor?

1239
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:41,279
If I was, if I was a defendant,
you know, what's the difference

1240
01:09:41,279 --> 01:09:44,080
between what I'd be asking you
to do or the responsibilities

1241
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:46,479
that you have?
I mean, so typically it's this,

1242
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:48,319
you're asking me to do the same
thing, right?

1243
01:09:48,319 --> 01:09:52,399
It is, you know, that's why I
went into what I do is evidence

1244
01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:55,560
doesn't have a, you know, have a
bias.

1245
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:57,840
You know, the evidence is what
the evidence is.

1246
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:01,360
The interpreting it has a bias.
The interpreting has a bias,

1247
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:06,640
absolutely right.
So when I'm dealing with

1248
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:10,480
concepts like shooting
reconstruction, right, is you

1249
01:10:10,480 --> 01:10:14,760
can only you, there is no bias
to the measurement of a, of a

1250
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:17,520
trajectory flight path, right?
It's going to only line up a

1251
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:21,720
certain way.
It is the interpretation of, of

1252
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:27,040
how that flight path goes with
the overall story of, of that

1253
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:29,600
case, right?
And that is up to the prosecutor

1254
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:35,560
or the defense attorney where I
kind of help them is advising in

1255
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:39,280
manners of whether or not
something actually could be

1256
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:43,400
possible, right.
So is it possible that the

1257
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:46,880
defendant could have been acting
in self-defense?

1258
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:50,320
Well, based off of all of this
evidence, yes.

1259
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:53,960
Or based off of this one, you
know, based off of this gunshot

1260
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,000
wound in this blood stain
pattern, Absolutely not.

1261
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:58,720
Your defendant as guilty as sin,
you should probably take.

1262
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:01,120
Wow.
Wait, so, So what would be the

1263
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:04,040
case with the, can you give me
some examples of like cases that

1264
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:06,800
happened that you can describe
what gave it away to you that it

1265
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:09,200
was possible or not?
You know, because I guess, I

1266
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:12,800
guess the whole and I guess the
way to to kind of keep keep

1267
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:16,000
framing this is beyond a
reasonable doubt or not, right?

1268
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:18,760
Like that's all that the court
uses.

1269
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:22,240
So you're not saying this for a
fact, You're saying within a

1270
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:24,120
reasonable doubt.
Could this person have been

1271
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:26,760
acting in self-defense or within
a reasonable doubt?

1272
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:33,840
Is this guy guilty of sin?
You know, when it comes to when

1273
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,840
it comes to acting in
self-defense, you know, my, I am

1274
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:42,600
just testifying or providing
opinion to, you know, what the

1275
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,840
blood stain patterns are or what
the shooting reconstruction

1276
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:48,440
evidence is or what the body
positioning possibly could have

1277
01:11:48,440 --> 01:11:51,240
been.
And then that data is

1278
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:53,760
interpreted into the story by
the attorney.

1279
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:59,560
So I had a case in Houston back
in February that was a

1280
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:05,200
self-defense case and I ended up
testifying to talking about

1281
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:08,880
response time.
So kind of a subset of shooting

1282
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:12,520
reconstruction is human factors
and how we respond under stress,

1283
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:14,120
right?
So I was kind of talking a

1284
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:16,080
little bit about that earlier
about what your body's kind of

1285
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:20,200
undergoing, but like response
time to a stimulus, right?

1286
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:23,680
So a stimulus being, you know,
I'm presented with maybe an

1287
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:28,280
armed robber, say for example,
you know, is how quick can I

1288
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:32,360
respond to that by, you know,
what's the average draw time and

1289
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:35,760
the average time to draw your
gun and fire a shot, right?

1290
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:39,120
You know, based off of, you
know, studies within the past

1291
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:43,960
decade that ranges between 1.7
seconds to 1.42 seconds on

1292
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:45,400
average.
And we know with, and there's a

1293
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:48,280
obviously a standard deviation
range there, but we can start

1294
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:52,640
taking some of that information
and interpreting that across

1295
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:56,280
other concepts that are other
types of evidence that we have,

1296
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:58,400
right?
So if we can use blood stain

1297
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:01,160
patterns like in this case that
this is what I did, right, was

1298
01:13:01,440 --> 01:13:05,320
looking at the blood stain
patterns to understand the

1299
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:08,440
movement of the decedent after
he was shot.

1300
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:11,640
You know.
So that would help me understand

1301
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:15,840
the original position that he
was in, as well as taking that

1302
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:21,280
data and correlating it with the
flight paths that he had of

1303
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:24,400
bullet wounds that he had.
And said those start to help me

1304
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:27,600
understand where he was at
specific times when he was shot,

1305
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:31,560
which I can then use to compare
against testimonial evidence.

1306
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:33,440
Yeah.
And so that's what I do a lot

1307
01:13:33,440 --> 01:13:37,040
of.
But is it so does it?

1308
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:41,720
I mean, I guess I know this
also, I guess from jujitsu just

1309
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:46,400
starting that your bodies are
capable of falling in ways that

1310
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:50,080
we have that that if you remove
our consciousness or you remove,

1311
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:54,000
you know, our brain control, our
bodies are capable of falling in

1312
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,440
ways that we have agree, have no
way of explaining or like even

1313
01:13:57,440 --> 01:14:01,320
recreating again, you know, so,
so like someone's getting shot

1314
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:05,600
and their body obviously
immediately goes, I'm sure it's

1315
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:09,040
flooded with, you know, this
adrenaline with this, you know,

1316
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:12,560
without, with the stress, with
the everything, just like, and

1317
01:14:13,480 --> 01:14:16,920
you probably don't even remember
how you landed, what happened,

1318
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:21,600
how how you fell.
Depends on the nature of the of

1319
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:24,600
the individual wound, right?
You know, is it a fatal gunshot

1320
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:26,320
wound?
You know, to where you.

1321
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:28,560
You shot in the leg.
Yeah.

1322
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:30,360
Or is it, you know, something
that is?

1323
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:32,160
Yeah.
So what was that fatal?

1324
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:34,520
In that case, it was a fatal
gunshot wound.

1325
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:39,840
Gotcha.
And so your job was to prove,

1326
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:48,640
because it was self-defense,
that the person was the person

1327
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:51,960
was responding to some to, to to
to a threat.

1328
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:56,880
Oh, I'm not proving anything.
I am providing.

1329
01:14:57,400 --> 01:14:59,960
Potential evidence of.
Whether or not I'm providing,

1330
01:14:59,960 --> 01:15:03,240
I'm providing factual
information about the evidence

1331
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:10,160
for the jury to decide if you
know, based off of those facts

1332
01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:14,480
that self-defense was reasonable
in this case, they agreed that

1333
01:15:14,480 --> 01:15:16,720
it was, you know, that
self-defense was reasonable and

1334
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:20,400
they acquitted him.
And that was the absolute

1335
01:15:20,480 --> 01:15:23,160
correct answer.
And you know, in my opinion, I,

1336
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:28,320
I very much always did bifurcate
personal opinions, right, and

1337
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:30,160
personal feelings and.
Emotional feelings from my

1338
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:32,000
casework.
Yeah.

1339
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:33,400
Oh yeah.
I mean, that's kind of the key

1340
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:36,760
thing is you, you have to remain
objective throughout all of your

1341
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:39,640
analysis, regardless of what
type of casework if you're

1342
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:43,800
doing, if you're a, you know, a
police detective or a crime lab

1343
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:49,120
analyst or a private examiner is
that's the whole, the point of

1344
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:52,160
forensic sciences that it is
objective and does not care

1345
01:15:52,480 --> 01:15:57,680
about guilt or innocence.
It just cares about, you know

1346
01:15:58,160 --> 01:15:59,960
what is the factual information
you.

1347
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:04,920
Feel that the facts that the
facts of this scenario were not

1348
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:12,400
properly understood and and the
results do not manifest the way

1349
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:14,080
that you felt the evidence laid
out.

1350
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:17,120
Absolutely.
It does happen.

1351
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:20,400
Yeah, it does happen.
I mean, look at me, we can see

1352
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:25,880
that in exoneration cases,
right, Is, you know, evidence

1353
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:28,000
can only be misinterpreted, like
you said.

1354
01:16:28,440 --> 01:16:33,400
And that is not just
misinterpretation by an analyst,

1355
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:36,640
by a forensic analyst, but also
by the jury, right?

1356
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:42,800
You know, the, you know, if you
look at cases like I think of

1357
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:49,800
the case of David Cam.
And so David Cam was an innocent

1358
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:53,920
man who was convicted guilty of
murdering his wife and his

1359
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:58,240
children.
And it was all based off of

1360
01:16:58,480 --> 01:17:03,240
who's found guilty because of
bad blood stain pattern

1361
01:17:03,440 --> 01:17:07,040
analysis.
You know, there the analyst in

1362
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:11,520
that case made opinions that
they, there was no factual basis

1363
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:14,920
to make.
And so that influences the jury

1364
01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:18,280
to believe that the weight of
that evidence is of greater

1365
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:21,280
value than it actually is.
And so you know.

1366
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:25,040
Can you argue that should be
illegal to do that?

1367
01:17:26,200 --> 01:17:28,160
OK.
I mean, I could make that

1368
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:31,440
argument all day long, but you
know, the problem is, is that we

1369
01:17:31,440 --> 01:17:37,000
have and that is a failure of
the criminal justice system more

1370
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:42,000
than anything, because it is up
to the Trier of fact, you know,

1371
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:45,560
that that judge is supposed to
be the gatekeeper of, you know,

1372
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:47,760
expert witness testimonial
evidence.

1373
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:52,760
So when I testify in court, I
have to basically state my

1374
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:55,440
qualifications and my
experience.

1375
01:17:55,440 --> 01:17:59,280
And then the judge will say
that, you know, he's recognized

1376
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:03,760
as an expert in, you know,
student reconstruction or blood

1377
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:06,400
stamp out whatever I'm being
recognized as an expert in.

1378
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:10,520
And then I can give my opinion
and I can testify to those

1379
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:14,160
opinions and to the factual
evidence, Right, right, right.

1380
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:19,840
If I'm not found to be of
sufficient value, you know, or

1381
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:23,480
to have sufficient skills and
experience, you know, then IAA

1382
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:30,520
lay witness cannot give opinion,
you know, I, I look at.

1383
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:33,560
People say objection speculation
because that would be that would

1384
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:35,680
be the line that people.
That there's, yeah, there's a

1385
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:37,040
ton.
There's a ton of different, you

1386
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:41,040
know, rules in court of what you
can, you know, object to.

1387
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:44,880
Yeah.
But we, we have our criminal

1388
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:49,440
justice system set up a kind of
a very specific adversarial way

1389
01:18:49,440 --> 01:18:52,000
for a reason.
Because the whole idea is that

1390
01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:56,520
the adversarial system helps the
Trier fact, whether that's the

1391
01:18:56,520 --> 01:19:01,720
judge or the jury, refine all
the points down to the truth,

1392
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:05,920
right?
And that's not always, that

1393
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:09,280
doesn't always work, you know,
and we see that in exoneration

1394
01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:12,040
cases.
Blackstone's ratio.

1395
01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:17,480
So there was a rabbi named
Miamondis back during the 15th

1396
01:19:17,480 --> 01:19:24,600
century and he came up with this
thought, this concept that it is

1397
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:28,920
better to let 1000 guilty
persons go than to ever imprison

1398
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:33,000
an innocent man, right.
And then there's a guy named

1399
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:35,680
Blackstone back in the 19th
century, he was an attorney.

1400
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:39,040
He kind of refined it and said,
you know, it would became 100

1401
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:42,240
guilty persons than to ever, you
know, convict an innocent man

1402
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:45,720
and put him in prison.
And that is very much I could

1403
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:48,320
not agree more.
That's why I do the work the way

1404
01:19:48,320 --> 01:19:53,520
I do is because the worst thing
that we could ever do is put an

1405
01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:57,120
innocent person in prison and
take away somebody's freedoms.

1406
01:19:57,120 --> 01:20:01,360
And that is a.
Something as a detective, as a

1407
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:06,120
police officer that I tried that
never lose touch of is the the

1408
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:09,480
weight of what you were doing,
the weight of the power that you

1409
01:20:09,480 --> 01:20:14,640
have in doing criminal
investigations is so great.

1410
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:18,680
So yeah, that's tangent that I.
Didn't.

1411
01:20:18,680 --> 01:20:20,560
No, no, no.
I think, no.

1412
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:22,000
I think it's amazing.
I think it's amazing.

1413
01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:23,680
I want to ask you one last
question.

1414
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:25,720
First of all, I want to
absolutely, absolutely have you

1415
01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:27,840
back on the podcast again
because this is a blast.

1416
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:29,680
And there's a hundred more
things that I want to get to.

1417
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:31,480
Yeah.
We'll have to find time again in

1418
01:20:31,480 --> 01:20:33,640
the future to do this again and,
you know, hear what else you're

1419
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:36,040
working on.
The last thing I want to ask,

1420
01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:37,840
two last things I want to ask
you, but the last thing I want

1421
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:46,440
to ask you is the Han Solo shot.
Who?

1422
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:47,800
Fight who?
Fight Who shot?

1423
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:53,000
Who shot first?
George Lucas tried pacifying it

1424
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:57,200
with his revisions and these.
Are business Dude, George Lucas

1425
01:20:57,200 --> 01:20:59,920
is a revisionist.
Dude, he is a revisionist, you

1426
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:03,200
know.
So actually I just finished the

1427
01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:05,840
George Lucas biography like 3
weeks ago.

1428
01:21:06,480 --> 01:21:11,680
Fantastic biography for.
I would definitely read that.

1429
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:16,400
It's, I think it's called George
Lucas a life, and it is I, I'd

1430
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:18,720
done that one.
I I love biographies.

1431
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:20,640
Me too.
I just.

1432
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:22,640
Started his technology.
Started Pixar.

1433
01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:24,720
Yeah.
It's amazing.

1434
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:25,480
It's so cool.
Yeah.

1435
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:27,160
That's why True stories of
homage.

1436
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:30,440
Speaking of.
Pixar, Have You Done Steve Jobs

1437
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:35,240
by Walter Isaacson?
I of course, and I'm working on,

1438
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:37,680
there's an amazing book to Pixar
and beyond.

1439
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:43,280
The CFO of the company, Lawrence
Levy, writes about taking the

1440
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:47,720
company public from a business
perspective as a CFO of Pixar.

1441
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:50,240
While I was going public in 95
and working with Steve Jobs and

1442
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:53,120
everything like that.
And, and he and I have have

1443
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:55,120
corresponded a couple of times.
I'm dying to get him on the

1444
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:56,760
podcast.
That's awesome.

1445
01:21:57,160 --> 01:22:00,840
But yeah, the Toy Story's a
homage to to Star Wars.

1446
01:22:01,200 --> 01:22:06,640
Yeah, so Steve Jobs.
Oh see, I could talk about books

1447
01:22:06,640 --> 01:22:09,800
all day long.
Another great one is Bob Iger's

1448
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:11,480
Right of a Lifetime.
You like?

1449
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:14,120
That one, I loved it.
I got to read it.

1450
01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:16,960
I got.
To read it because he brings a

1451
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:20,640
really great perspective of
leadership and I love anything,

1452
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:22,120
any kind of leadership
biography.

1453
01:22:22,120 --> 01:22:26,040
I mean, extreme ownership going
back to Jocko, right?

1454
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:30,680
Extreme ownership was one of the
first leadership books that I

1455
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:34,120
really kind of dived into.
And thank God I did it early in

1456
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:40,320
my career because that that that
philosophy has very much molded

1457
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:45,440
my outlook on my work ethic.
And I think that that has been a

1458
01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:49,160
driving factor of why one, I'm
just kind of neurotic when it

1459
01:22:49,160 --> 01:22:52,040
comes to diving into a bunch of
projects, but really taking that

1460
01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:54,720
concept of ownership and, you
know, the more ownership you

1461
01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:56,120
take, the more successful you'll
be.

1462
01:22:56,800 --> 01:22:59,120
Yeah, I got to check out.
I got to, I got to check out

1463
01:22:59,120 --> 01:23:01,120
that that George Lucas book.
So.

1464
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:04,040
So George would.
Like to say that Han Solo

1465
01:23:04,040 --> 01:23:06,200
totally shot first.
He did shoot first.

1466
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:08,680
Can you explain why you got how
you got there?

1467
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:13,960
Yeah, cuz I watched the original
cuz the original videos were the

1468
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:16,440
best, you know?
Yeah, New Hope, The

1469
01:23:16,440 --> 01:23:20,720
unadulterated New Hope from 78
is the only good version.

1470
01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:24,920
Yeah, yeah, I'm a little sad.
What happened to the Star Wars

1471
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:26,720
world?
What what do you think of the

1472
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:31,960
movie Interstellar?
So, and this is absolutely, this

1473
01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:34,600
will be a great reason of why we
have to have a.

1474
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:37,000
Another.
Conversation, another round of

1475
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:41,720
conversation is so a side hobby
of mine.

1476
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:47,360
I'm very much kind of a polymath
and so I love anything that

1477
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:52,480
deals with like quantum dynamics
and quantum physics and and so

1478
01:23:52,480 --> 01:23:56,400
the concept of understanding
reality.

1479
01:23:57,720 --> 01:24:04,280
Yeah, Interstellar is a great
movie because it one it's a

1480
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:10,480
great you know, it it it's a
beautifully shot masterpiece.

1481
01:24:10,480 --> 01:24:12,600
It really is it is a cinematic
masterpiece.

1482
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:21,000
But the concepts of multi
dimensions and what space-time

1483
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:26,000
actually is, I think it's done
really well in there.

1484
01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:31,520
You know the concepts of you
know how black holes work and

1485
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:34,640
you know how we can visualize
them And going back to, you

1486
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:36,600
know, my level space.
Yeah, I'm.

1487
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:38,760
Sorry.
But yeah, it's really good.

1488
01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:42,600
I I love how they ended up you.
Know OK, we're gonna have to get

1489
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:44,280
back to that we're gonna have to
go back to that so.

1490
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:48,480
Yeah, I'm a huge proponent of
simulation hypothesis and you

1491
01:24:48,480 --> 01:24:50,400
know.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1492
01:24:50,480 --> 01:24:53,520
Well, you know what?
As time goes on, I think that I

1493
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:56,800
think it feels more and more
like inevitable.

1494
01:24:57,040 --> 01:25:05,440
You know, it's pretty, I, I, I'm
a little nervous that we're a

1495
01:25:05,440 --> 01:25:07,720
couple of years away from just
not being able to discern what

1496
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:12,840
reality is from anything and
like, you know, from AI or from

1497
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:15,840
technology.
And we're just, you know, we it

1498
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:18,080
just we, we have no idea what
reality is.

1499
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:20,880
Oh yeah.
It's really scary.

1500
01:25:20,880 --> 01:25:22,760
It's really freaky.
But you know what?

1501
01:25:22,760 --> 01:25:28,880
I, I, I do hope that I do hope.
And I believe that because

1502
01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:36,280
there's been a cosmic positive
karmic history where, like,

1503
01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:42,000
putting out goodness and effort
and all those things, you know,

1504
01:25:42,160 --> 01:25:46,880
lead to positive consequences.
And it's not on the outside.

1505
01:25:47,040 --> 01:25:51,000
On the inside, you know in one
way or the other that things

1506
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:53,600
will turn out OK, but just not
the way that we expect anything

1507
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:55,680
to be.
Yeah, it's that concept of

1508
01:25:55,680 --> 01:26:00,320
manifestation, right?
Is, you know, projecting how you

1509
01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:06,840
want the world around you to be.
You know, if if you, I am a firm

1510
01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:10,360
believer of if you can dream it,
you can do it.

1511
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:12,080
There's another Walt Disney
quote for you.

1512
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:20,040
But if you're not happy with
where you are in life, then

1513
01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:23,680
change it.
It it really is that simple, you

1514
01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:25,480
say, Oh, but Zach, I've got
pills to pay.

1515
01:26:25,480 --> 01:26:30,040
I've got you know, the my
friend, you are only within this

1516
01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:35,560
particular lifetime here once.
So do not don't forego it.

1517
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:36,960
Don't.
Give it up it episode is going

1518
01:26:37,080 --> 01:26:38,680
to have is going to be so much
fun.

1519
01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:42,080
Oh yeah, this gets into the
really philosophical stance.

1520
01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:44,120
Yeah, yeah, that's the stuff I
love.

1521
01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:51,880
It, you know, it's, I work with
death on such a regular basis

1522
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:56,840
that it has very much given me a
perspective on the value of

1523
01:26:56,840 --> 01:27:02,320
life.
You know, a friend of mine was

1524
01:27:02,640 --> 01:27:08,120
killed on duty a couple months
ago and you know, it was, that

1525
01:27:08,120 --> 01:27:11,320
was by far the hardest scene I
have ever worked.

1526
01:27:12,160 --> 01:27:18,480
And it very much was kind of a,
I don't know, an earth

1527
01:27:18,480 --> 01:27:24,640
shattering moment or series of
moments, right?

1528
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:29,120
It really gives you pause for
perspective.

1529
01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:35,080
But life's short.
Live it.

1530
01:27:35,120 --> 01:27:36,520
If you're not happy with it,
change it.

1531
01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:40,520
It really is that simple.
Zach, this has been such a

1532
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:42,040
pleasure.
I'm so happy that you responded

1533
01:27:42,040 --> 01:27:45,560
to my e-mail initially, and I'm
so happy you made this happen.

1534
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:48,840
And I'm so excited for our
future conversations.

1535
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:50,920
I'm so excited to see the work
you're doing and the research

1536
01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:53,200
that you're doing.
And you're literally, dude,

1537
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:57,680
you're, you're, you're living,
you're living science fiction in

1538
01:27:57,680 --> 01:27:59,400
this world.
And it's just science.

1539
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:01,920
And it's so cool.
And as an observer, I just want

1540
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:03,880
to say I'm a huge fan.
I really appreciate everything

1541
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:06,800
that you're doing.
Well, I greatly appreciate it.

1542
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:11,120
I, I love what I do.
And you know, I, I try and I, I

1543
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:12,720
try and actually live what I
preach.

1544
01:28:12,720 --> 01:28:15,240
And you know, like Humphrey
Bogart said at the end of

1545
01:28:15,240 --> 01:28:17,320
Casablanca, this is the
beginning of a beautiful

1546
01:28:17,320 --> 01:28:19,040
friendship.
I hope so.

1547
01:28:19,040 --> 01:28:20,920
I hope so, Zach.
Thanks so much for the time,

1548
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:21,680
man.
We're going to be, you're

1549
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:24,160
definitely going to be in touch
and we'll talk soon, OK?

1550
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:26,000
Sounds great.
Take care and be safe.

1551
01:28:26,440 --> 01:28:27,520
Good night everyone.
Bye.