#105: Kevin Shird

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

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All right, We're here with
Kevin.

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Kevin, welcome, man.
I'm so happy that you took the

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time to get back to me and that
we're making this work.

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Hopefully this is the beginning
of a few podcasts together, man.

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How are you?
Absolutely, man.

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I'm doing great today down in
sunny Baltimore.

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If if there's ever such a thing,
you're from Baltimore, born and

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raised, born and raised in
Baltimore.

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I just moved back a year ago, a
year and some change ago from

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Los Angeles.
So I'm I'm back in in Baltimore,

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MD, the home of of of of of the
Chesapeake Bay and and and Old

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Bay seasoning.
How do you how do you like

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living in LA and how long were
you there for?

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I was living in LA close to
three years.

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I I loved it.
I loved everything about it.

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I love being that close to, to
the water, the mountains, Yeah,

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all the, all the beauty that
that God has.

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God has given us 5 minutes, 5
minutes away.

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Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it?
I lived in Seattle, WA for a

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little bit and I felt the same
way as, you know, the same

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descriptions.
Like there's so much beautiful

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nature all around this great
city, you know?

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And, and it just takes 5 minutes
and like you feel like you're in

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a different universe, you know?
Absolutely.

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Yeah.
So how does it feel to be back

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in Baltimore?
It feels great, man.

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It feels great to be around
family.

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It's always great to be home.
I love to travel and I love to

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see the world because just
before I landed in Lai was in a

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place called Tucson, AZ Sure, I
spent about a year there before

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proceeding over to Los Angeles,
but but being back to your

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question, being back in
Baltimore, it's been great.

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I'm I miss Lai, miss Arizona, I
miss the ocean, but I get a

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chance to be around family and
friends and the familiarity of

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of home is always good.
Yeah, yeah, I'm totally with

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you.
I love, I, I love, I think the

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West Coast has better nature,
but I but home it.

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But you know, my, my home and
family and friends also is here

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on the East Coast.
You want to tell, tell audience

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a little bit about who you are
in your story, man.

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And and we could dive into
things from there.

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Yes, so 7 shirt.
Born and raised here in

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Baltimore.
I am a writer, activist, author.

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I've actually authored 4 books
under my name, but I've also

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ghostwritten 12 other books, so
I've actually written 16 books

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in the last.
Wow, I'm going.

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To when you go to write.
What's that process like?

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It varies depending on the
person you're working with, but

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a lot of recording, a lot of
conversations, a lot of

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revisiting old stuff.
For some people it that entails

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some trauma revisiting, some
trauma revisiting some ugly

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parts of their life, but but
also at the same time some

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beautiful parts of their life.
Right.

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Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Is there, is it?

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Are you?
So when you ghost authoring,

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you're kind of helping these
people get their stories onto

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paper and into a book.
Yes.

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Gotcha.
And a lot of times, I'm sure, I

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mean, even from my own
experiences, you know that

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there's a disconnect between
parts of your life that you know

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that you want to go back to and
parts that you know you want to

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stay far away from.
Because going back there put you

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in a head, puts you in a
headspace that you know that you

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don't necessarily want to be in.
Right.

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Exactly, exactly.
And then some people just don't

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have the patience to write.
Some people don't have the skill

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set.
And then some people and they're

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intimidated by the writing, the
exercise of writing a book,

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right?
And I always tell people like,

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look, everybody's got a story.
I don't care who you are if

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you're a politician in New
Jersey or, or you're a farmer in

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Kansas that wakes up 4:00 in the
morning to, to plow the the

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cornfield, like everybody's got
a story.

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It's a different story.
And it may or may not be a story

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that you're interested in, but
nevertheless, it's still a

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story.
And everybody has one.

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Definitely, definitely so.
So you're a writer, activist,

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author, ghost author.
Have you always been a writer?

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As have you, as writing always
come easy to you.

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That's funny, man, because
people ask me that.

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You know, you sometimes you end
up in in stuff doing things and

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you're not even always sure how
you got there until somebody

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asks.
Yeah, until somebody asks you

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and then they, they may, they
may need to ask you 25 times

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until you actually remember.
So when I was 15 years old, I

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was the, I was the, the, the rap
writer for the neighborhood.

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What does that mean?
Oh, the rap writer I wrote.

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You've always been writing rap.
You always poetry and stuff like

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that.
No, just rap.

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I I wrote all the raps for all
the rappers in the neighborhood.

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No way.
I totally forgot about that

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whole thing until maybe lat like
6 months ago.

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It it it dawned on me like, wait
a minute, I had AI had several

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big folders of raps wow that I
wrote for for folks in in

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friends in the neighborhood
right when we were kids and I

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totally forgot all about that.
But my journey was my life

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journey has been interesting man
'cause even but hear about it

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man, tell me about it.
So my mother put me in a program

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when I was three years old
called the Head Start program.

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And the Head Start program was
actually the design to give kids

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growing up in poverty a jump
start or head start on their

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education, right.
So the Head Start program

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actually have vouchers and you
would take these vouchers to

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programs that did preschool and
you were paid to get your kid in

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the preschool program.
Wow.

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So when my mother was able to
get me into preschool at three

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years old, by the time I got to,
I'm gonna say kindergarten, the

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the teachers wanted to skip me
to the next grade because I was

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already advanced in math and
reading.

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They felt like I didn't even
need the kindergarten, so my

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mother said no, she didn't want
to do that.

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So I stayed in.
I was advanced fault as all the

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other kids.
By the 3rd grade I was reading

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Shakespeare.
No way.

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True story, really.
What were you reading?

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All Shakespeare played like
stuff that I couldn't even I

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could.
I could read it, but I still

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couldn't comprehend it.
Yeah, but it was just words in

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your imagination.
It was actually word to me.

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They were just word, but you
know.

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Your imagination probably filled
in.

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Yeah.
The the words that you did know

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and the words that you didn't,
it kind of just would pass over,

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right?
That's what happened to me when

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I was growing.
Up.

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It was a struggle because you
remember Shakespeare is written

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with a certain vernacular and
cadence, right?

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That's not the cadence that you
learned as a three-year old or

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five year old 30.
Year old man, Yeah.

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So.
So for me it was just words,

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right at 3rd grade, I got into a
program called the Gate, Gate

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program, gifted and talented
education, right?

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And so we're, we're, we're man,
we, we're reading stuff.

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And now my imagination is, is
really going wild because I

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remember one of the questions
being, if you are alien from

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outer space and you saw a
football game, what would you

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think?
And I still remember that

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questions today, right from like
40 years ago.

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And I was like, damn, I don't I
so creativity was something that

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it started to be instilled in me
at a very young age, right?

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Fast forward, I, I was doing
great in school.

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I grew up with that chronic
alcohol addictive father and I

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wrote about this in my first
book, My Father was Chronic

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Alcohol I'm.
Sorry.

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Thank you.
So he was, he was tumbled down

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whole flights and steps, right,
like a stuntman.

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And we just get up.
And so his alcohol addiction was

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chronic.
And so him and my mother is

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separated and divorced somewhere
around 1516 years old.

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That's how bad it got.
And around that time, that's

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when I began to journey into the
streets and I began to see stuff

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that probably a 16 year old
should never see.

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Like the first time me, me and a
friend of mine, we were tall

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'cause we played basketball.
And so now 6/2 when I was

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probably close to 6 feet when I
was like I was at least 511 when

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I was probably around 16 years
old.

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So we, we snuck, we used, we
used to, he would tell his

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mother he was standing with my
house.

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I would tell my mother I was
standing with his house.

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And we actually go to a club.
And mind you, we were, we were

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tall.
We were tall so we could get

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into this club.
And then one night we in the

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club, this is probably like the
4th or 5th time music is

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playing.
The music is playing and a a

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gunshot rings out in the dark
and a Stampede starts.

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So me and my friends, 16 years
old, we terrified.

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We've never been in an
environment like that before

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where you know there's violence
and we're running with the

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crowd.
Did.

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You recognize there was a
gunshot when it happened?

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Yes, because everybody like
that's.

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Got to be.
Well, everybody, everybody got

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down on the floor.
Wow.

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But it was a pause because I
think if people were like, wait

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a minute, is that what I think
it is?

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And then people start to get
down on the floor and then they

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started running.
We started to run with the

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crowd.
And the next thing I know, the

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crowd reverses, the Stampede
reverses and runs the other way.

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And we end up running past the
dead body right with the the guy

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had a bullet in his in his torso
had a shot you.

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Remember seeing that as a. 16
year old yeah.

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We we, we ran.
We ran past the body.

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Wow, yeah.
OK.

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And then what was your, what was
your process?

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What you did did, did you like,
did you know to do with

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yourself?
Like what?

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What were you thinking?
It was so it was, it happened so

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quick and then it was such a
shock.

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And then I remember I remember
reading in in in a newspaper the

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next day that he had he died.
So that was the first instance.

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And then short time after that,
you know, when my father gone

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and me journey into the street,
street life.

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And then I began to meet, you
know, guys in the street.

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You know, we grew up in poverty.
Now this is an era where like

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Jordan sneakers has become a big
deal, but it's it's even a

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bigger deal when you can't
afford them.

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And so that led to me started
selling small amounts of

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marijuana, which led to selling
small amounts of cocaine, which

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led to selling small amounts of
heroin.

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And it and that whole thing
evolved in the something that I

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never never, never had expected,
right.

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Wow.
Now you know it's all. 16 still

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or how long is it?
How?

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How long?
How?

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How?
Rapid was this.

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How rapid was the transition
from?

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From, you know, cannabis.
To Coke, yeah.

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Yeah, it was good.
Probably six months, a year,

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something like that.
It was quick.

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It was quick and we still had no
idea.

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You know, it's funny, 'cause
sometimes people think like

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young people or anybody, any
folks that are involved in this

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stuff, they don't, they don't
take take into account like it's

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even new to these folks.
Like it's new to that person

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that just got into this
situation on this business,

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whatever you want call it isn't
even new to them.

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So they're learning.
There's a learning curve as

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well, right?
Because they don't teach this

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stuff in school that you, you
learn it on the fly.

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So Fast forward, I'm in the 12th
grade, my grades are doing

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terrible now 'cause I'm more
focused on the street life than

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class work, and I dropped out of
school at 18 in the 12th grade

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and pursued the drug business.
At the time I had like 4 guys

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working for me at 18 years old.
Wow, did your mom know?

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00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,880
About this.
Yeah, but yes and no.

228
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,560
She didn't know to it certainly
didn't know to the extent she

229
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:15,320
knew something was going on.
Matter of fact, I wrote about

230
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:21,480
this story about my I wrote
about this in my my first book.

231
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,720
We were, we were, we were one
day we were getting ready to get

232
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:29,200
evicted and the sheriff had come
to our house.

233
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:34,160
I was about 17 and they were,
they come to the house with a

234
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:39,000
bunch of other like maintenance
people to evict us and start

235
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:45,800
sitting our furniture outside.
And so we were like 30 minutes

236
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,760
away from being having that
stuff placed outside.

237
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,160
She was at work.
Yeah, she was at work.

238
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,000
So she's trying to frantically,
she can't leave work.

239
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,120
She's frantically trying to get
money together to pay the rent.

240
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,480
And I had a shoe box full of
weed and money in the bedroom.

241
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,800
And so I came out with like, I
can't remember, couple 100

242
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,960
bucks, I believe.
And I added to the money to pay

243
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,800
the rent.
And my, I remember my mother

244
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,760
saying, where did you get that
money from?

245
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,080
And I lied and said I'd saved
it.

246
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:25,880
Like, 'cause we also used to cut
grass and shovel snow and rake

247
00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,400
leaves, right?
Sure.

248
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,160
For for to make, you know, make
a couple bucks.

249
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:32,120
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.

250
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,280
So I did that.
Too, So I think she so she, she

251
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,960
started to get a wind of it, but
then she's also working three

252
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,800
jobs.
So wow, she leaves at 6:00 in

253
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:50,240
the morning.
She gets in at, at I guess 5 and

254
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,800
then she goes to second job at
six to 10 and she's getting in

255
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,760
the house at 11.
So how do you keep track of a

256
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,720
kid that, that no, you can't,
you can't, you can't.

257
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,480
And that's the reality of it,
right?

258
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,800
Yeah.
So by then, you know, the cat's

259
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,720
out the bag by the time I turned
20.

260
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,520
And then I journey out even
more.

261
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,400
Now I'm meeting people that's
heavily in the drug business.

262
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,160
They know I'm a smart kid.
They've they've figured at least

263
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,280
that part out.
Are you restricted to Baltimore

264
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,880
like or a particular
neighborhood or are you go?

265
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,400
Are you go?
Are you standing outward?

266
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,480
I'm in West Baltimore at the
time.

267
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:34,600
OK, gotcha.
And were you, did you have

268
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,840
ambitions or like I did you look
at this as a business to like

269
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,080
kind of grow or do you look at
this like, listen this way,

270
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:41,560
they'll just make some money and
pay some bills.

271
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:50,920
I looked at it as an opportunity
to generate capital to invest in

272
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,440
a business that could sustain me
and and for my family for the

273
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,680
rest of my life.
Yeah, yeah.

274
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,760
At 2019, 20 years old, I had
that foresight.

275
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,200
Yeah.
So Fast forward another two

276
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,040
years.
By the time I turn 21, I've

277
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:14,520
witnessed another murder.
I had a friend murder a friend

278
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,520
I've had.
Now I'm about 22 and I'm making

279
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,720
$20,000 a day.
Wow.

280
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,200
Whoa.
Really.

281
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,000
I'm making 20 making $20,000 in
a day.

282
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,840
So at this point, I'm just
curious about this, right?

283
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:38,840
The psychology of the money,
right?

284
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,760
Are you spending money like
crazy?

285
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,320
Are you saving money?
Are you like, what's, what's

286
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,280
your relationship to the money
that you're making now as a kid,

287
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,240
you know, especially as a young
man, because like, like you

288
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,720
said, you had the foresight to
know that it's your family.

289
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,640
But I'm sure it was a lot of fun
to.

290
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:56,160
That's more money than most
people could even, you know,

291
00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,560
think of.
So both, right, we're spending

292
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:06,280
like crazy, but how many pairs
Adidas experiments and Air

293
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:14,600
Jordans can you can you buy?
Yeah, so we spending, but we

294
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,440
also got the foresight to save.
You know, it's I'm in two weeks.

295
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:24,000
I'm counting.
I'm counting a quarter

296
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,880
$1,000,000 in every two weeks or
close to it.

297
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,640
That's crazy, but at.
The same time, you know, we also

298
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,360
have bills to pay.
You know, we're not, we're not

299
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:38,120
growing heroin and cocaine.
There's somebody providing to us

300
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:41,800
and we got to, we got to pay
them right to get resupplied.

301
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,200
So.
What do you think would have

302
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,480
happened if you just stayed
selling weed as opposed to

303
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,360
getting into the harder stuff?
Things would have got worse,

304
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,720
'cause my, my, my, my, Yeah.
Because my ambitions was always,

305
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:01,400
it wasn't about this, it wasn't
about the product, right?

306
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,480
It was always about how much
money you can make.

307
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,440
Because with, with all I said, I
what I, what ended up happening?

308
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:15,800
We ended up buying businesses.
We, we end up buying real

309
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,800
estate.
I'm I'm talking 2023 years old.

310
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:25,200
Way.
AT23I, I owned, I, I owned, I

311
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:30,920
had at least 5 or 4, four or
five pieces of real estate in

312
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,040
Baltimore City at 23.
Wow, that's incredible.

313
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,520
I owned them.
I owned them a florist in the

314
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,000
mall, right?
So when I say florist in the

315
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,880
mall and selling drugs, people
think, oh, it was for money

316
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,440
laundering purposes.
It wasn't right.

317
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,200
You wanted a business.
You wanted you wanted.

318
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,120
You wanted businesses.
I wanted out of the drug trade,

319
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:57,880
right?
And because I even at that age

320
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,680
and I, I saw everybody before me
go to federal prison.

321
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,480
I saw everybody before me get
murdered.

322
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:11,320
So I'm thinking, OK, we get, you
know, I want to get out, but I

323
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,280
need to be, I need, I need to do
something to be able to make the

324
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,240
same amount of money, if that
makes sense.

325
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,520
Yeah, definitely.
It definitely makes sense,

326
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:19,800
right?
You're trying to keep up the

327
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,720
revenue, but you're trying to
avoid the risk of, of, you know,

328
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,600
the, the, all the risks that
come with selling, with selling

329
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,160
drugs, I guess, right?
And the only reason I got into

330
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,280
this to start with, I was a kid
growing up in in poverty.

331
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,920
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, dude,
I, I for sure.

332
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,720
I sure wasn't like, oh, I wanna,
you know, sell be a kingpin and

333
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:46,360
sell poison to to people or
nothing like that.

334
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,760
For me, it was about, you know,
seeing, seeing that struggle

335
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,000
with my mother working three
jobs and, and almost getting

336
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,640
evicted and, and, and sometimes
seeing, you know, the lights and

337
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,040
electricity getting ready to get
turned off.

338
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,000
How?
How much, how much, how much

339
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,680
conscious time do you spend
nowadays thinking about that

340
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,520
part of your life?
So a lot because I've written

341
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,000
about it, right?
Yeah, you're going back.

342
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,400
You're going back on it.
I always get questions about it.

343
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,720
I'm, I'm, I've, I've written
you, you can go online.

344
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:30,320
I've probably written 40 op eds
about poverty, addiction,

345
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:38,440
inequity, drug prevention
policies, heroin, cocaine, gun

346
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:44,480
violence, right.
And so when I look back, if I

347
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,640
didn't have those experiences,
what would I be writing about

348
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,920
today?
I don't nothing, right.

349
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,840
And the other part I think is a
little bit more important is

350
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,800
would I even care, right?
Because I know a lot of

351
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,320
successful black people and I'm
not knocking them right?

352
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,720
Doing well financially, great
families, great jobs.

353
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:16,200
The the truth of the matter is
many, many, there are many black

354
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,760
folks out here.
Did that have the killed?

355
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:25,760
I wanna say it in a callous way,
but the the interest is not why

356
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,840
why poverty is decimating
communities?

357
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,880
Why substance abuse is
decimating communities?

358
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,840
Why this the disease of
addiction is decimating

359
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,800
families, right?
Does it something?

360
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,400
Because it's such a big problem
that no one knows what to do

361
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,520
with.
It sometimes yes, yes, sometimes

362
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,360
yes.
And sometimes if that hasn't

363
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:54,280
been your experience, you that
that might not be something that

364
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,440
you want to put your energy into
and that's OK.

365
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,080
It's nothing.
You're not a bad person because

366
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:05,040
those things don't interest you.
You're not a bad person because

367
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,920
of that.
But what I'm with, the point I'm

368
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,480
trying to make is that if I
hadn't had that real life

369
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,120
experience, would I care today?
You know what I mean?

370
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:15,360
Right.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

371
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,240
And, and my work has gone, you
know, I've actually, I've worked

372
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,040
with the White House officer
National Drug Control policy.

373
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,600
That's how'd that happen.
How did you, how did how did was

374
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,680
this as a consequence of your
books?

375
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,560
Was it?
Was it because you were?

376
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,280
Yeah.
Well, let me go back a few.

377
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:32,840
Let me just go back.
Yeah, sure, please.

378
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,760
A few steps.
So, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm

379
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,800
making all this money.
Fast forward a few years.

380
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:49,480
I I I I end up spending almost
12 years in federal prison in

381
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,960
California State prison for drug
for drug track.

382
00:23:54,120 --> 00:24:04,520
I was 2024 when a guy who had
got indicted on a federal case

383
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:11,040
cooperated with the feds and
gave him my name.

384
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,320
And then I ended up getting
indicted on something called a a

385
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,360
second superseding indictment.
And so which is what?

386
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,080
Excuse me?
Which is what?

387
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:27,720
What's the second superseding?
So, so the the US attorneys go

388
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,600
to the grand jury, they they
state their case to the grand

389
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,520
jury, you get indicted, right?
Yeah.

390
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,280
The second superseding
indictments means that the

391
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,800
folks, the people that were
indicted that first time, now

392
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,480
after they're indicted and they
start to cooperate.

393
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,920
The new, the whole of the race,
yeah, yeah, I gotcha.

394
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,960
The new people.
Get with the new information the

395
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:58,000
government takes that goes back
to that same grand jury and they

396
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,680
get what's called a second
superseding indictment.

397
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,960
Couldn't you say that the jury
would be more biased in that

398
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,000
case because they've already
been, you know, experienced a

399
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,920
case the exact same or very
similar case prior to that?

400
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,960
Or do they just the government
look at like a continuation of

401
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,160
the same case?
It's a continuation.

402
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,760
I gotcha.
So you so you got snowballed in

403
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,280
with this other guy.
So I end up in that situation

404
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,520
and then what?
Was your reaction?

405
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:27,960
What was what?
What happened at the time?

406
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,360
Were you expecting it to happen?
Were you shocked?

407
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:32,960
Were you like?
I was shocked because of I was,

408
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:39,000
I was shocked because these guys
supposedly had this, this, this

409
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:44,080
tough guy persona in the
streets, but when it came when

410
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,880
it came time for them to carry
their weight.

411
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,440
And so that whole thing is just
a, a, a fantasy anyway, man.

412
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:59,400
And it's just like, I don't like
the whole tough guy in the

413
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,480
street stuff and loyalty and
trust.

414
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:10,200
I can look at the John Gotti,
Sammy, the bull case, 23 murders

415
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,000
and and now you're a government
witness.

416
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,840
The hope that but but the the
issue, the bigger issue is that

417
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:22,320
young kids get involved in these
situations and they adopt that

418
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:27,120
this fantasy of tough guys and
loyalty and trust.

419
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,720
And it's the reality is there is
no loyalty in the streets.

420
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,120
There is no, no trust in the
streets. 0 Right?

421
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:41,520
And the whole tough guy persona
is it is just a, you know, toxic

422
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:47,120
masculinity, right?
But then when, when, when a guy

423
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:52,360
ends up in some trouble, he, he
turns into something totally

424
00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:55,120
different.
But when you're young, you don't

425
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:58,880
understand those things.
And that's why having a father

426
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,920
is important.
That's why having a good male

427
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,160
role model is important for
young boys.

428
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,280
A a male role model that can
help him and navigate these

429
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,160
spaces and understand this
stuff.

430
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,680
You know, I could have been a
lot of things in life.

431
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,960
I'm a writer now and a very
successful one, but I had to do

432
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:27,520
I had to journey through a a
short life of crime and then 12

433
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,520
year over a decade in prison to
get where I am today.

434
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:36,200
But let me go back to some of
your your how we got here real.

435
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,720
Quick, I'm sorry.
I'm just just just at this point

436
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,160
that we're still up to in the
story.

437
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,960
And like you mentioned the
father figure, were there other

438
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,360
role models that you had at this
point, you know, growing up from

439
00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:51,120
this 16 to 2324 that you would
look up to that that you that

440
00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:54,240
you felt was like that kind of,
you know, positive figure in

441
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,360
your life?
Yes, but, but they all were

442
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:00,240
involved in, in in in bad
things.

443
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,960
Sure, but there were people that
you look up to.

444
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,360
They were these the people I I
looked up to all the wrong

445
00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:10,120
people and I got advice from all
the wrong people.

446
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:11,800
Right.
I got you.

447
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,520
Yeah.
Our best example I can give you

448
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,200
is the I think it's called The
Bronx Tale, right?

449
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,200
OK, You you remember the movie
The Bronx Tale?

450
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,920
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, it was sunny and and the

451
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,760
kids and that so that's what I'm
I'm, I'm, I'm talking about,

452
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,760
right?
You, you certainly have

453
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,520
admiration and even affection in
those relationships.

454
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,320
But is that the best
information?

455
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,720
Like is that the is that the
information that I need, right.

456
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,600
Trust no one, right?
Well, if you if you can't trust

457
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,280
no one, then you're probably in
the wrong environment, right?

458
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,080
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

459
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,880
So I had those folks, but I
don't think, you know, I, I

460
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,520
remember God, I got I, I was
taught how to cut heroin at

461
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:05,320
161617 years old, right?
Is that like a, a good skill

462
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,160
set?
If you wanted it was 60.

463
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,720
Of course not.
So yeah, those folks around.

464
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,360
But sometimes you're, you're
you're you're not young enough

465
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,280
to tell the difference, right?
They got to tell you that, man,

466
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,160
I, I love you, you know, you're
a great kid.

467
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,440
I love you and you hear those
things and you like, OK, he, you

468
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:29,360
know he.
We need that.

469
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,840
We crave that we.
Crave.

470
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,360
We want that's so badly.
That's what people don't.

471
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,760
It's so much psychology and
associated with all this stuff,

472
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,640
you know what I mean?
It's so layers upon layers upon

473
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,200
layers.
And that's not that's not even

474
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:53,480
throw in the trauma, right,
Because no doubt in my mom, when

475
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,280
I saw a 16 year old at 16 years,
I got murdered.

476
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,960
That stuck with me, right?
And I know if you look all over

477
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,920
the place, but I'm just give you
an example.

478
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,760
No, no, you.
I hated, I hated going in the

479
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,080
clubs after that right I.
Don't blame you.

480
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,400
And I never understood why until
like I until I became an adult

481
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,520
and I got into therapy.
So that's a whole nother

482
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,520
conversation.
But I know, yeah, I never

483
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,240
understood, like, why did I hate
clubs?

484
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,040
Well, did the darkness did the
loud music right.

485
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,680
This the loud Sound of Music, of
course, as you're going to hate

486
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:44,480
a club after that, so.
But so let me just get back.

487
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:50,080
So spending almost 12 years in
prison, the thing that I'm, I'm,

488
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:56,280
yeah, I'm gonna use the term
save me was that I, I took

489
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,000
college courses in prison.
How did you decide to start

490
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,120
doing that?
I just, I just realized I knew I

491
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,240
I would see it in front of my
face.

492
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,680
I would see guys hustling with
books and bags and.

493
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,080
Headaches.
Were there a lot of them?

494
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:14,360
It was very was it?
Was it common?

495
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,000
Yeah, it was common.
It was common, it was common

496
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,640
and, and, and I gravitated to
it, but I also knew, you know,

497
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,880
my mother would also always
preach to me about education,

498
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,240
always preach to me about doing
the right thing, always preach

499
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,000
to me about making better
choices and having having

500
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,600
better, better quality of
friendships.

501
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,880
So even though I didn't do it
for years, it was still.

502
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:46,400
Their values were still in your
head.

503
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,080
Yeah, yeah.
So when I saw a college, you

504
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,640
know, and the other part, it's
not like you got a whole bunch

505
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,040
of other things to do in prison.
It's not like you're busy.

506
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,920
So yeah, I I took college
courses and I ended up falling

507
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,800
in love with it.
I mean, it was.

508
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:04,120
Really.
What?

509
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:05,880
What, what, what?
What kind of courses were you

510
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,200
taking at the time?
I was taking business management

511
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:17,360
and like accounting one O 1 or
counting one and a business,

512
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,560
business law, business
management, you know, of course

513
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,680
English those classes.
But I just remember that the

514
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,400
business classes, I love them
because I started to run across

515
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,920
terms and techniques that I
actually was using in the

516
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,760
streets of Baltimore.
Yes, yeah, like.

517
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,000
Which was crazy to me at the
time.

518
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,320
Like target marketing?
Yeah, sure.

519
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,400
Right.
And I'm like, damn, this is

520
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,600
stuff.
This is stuff I was actually

521
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,960
already doing before, and now
I'm learning that.

522
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,040
OK, so these, those, I love
those.

523
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,200
I love the classes.
The professors were great.

524
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,000
They would come in from the
outside in the evening around

525
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,200
6:00 and they would teach the
classes.

526
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,840
And yeah, it was, it was.
It was are.

527
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,040
There are there any professors
that you're in touch with?

528
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,600
Still no.
You were like that you were

529
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,280
particularly fond of.
No, not now.

530
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,560
I, I was with 1.
He was a, he was actually, it

531
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,440
wasn't a professor.
He was a education.

532
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:23,600
He's a department at education.
And when I was in California and

533
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,520
I actually used to call him and
she, I don't know why, but I

534
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,200
would just call and check and
then ended up calling and found

535
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,880
out he had died, died of brain
cancer.

536
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,200
Oh.
Man.

537
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:43,120
If I see he was a Asian God, so
I'm I'm, he was a Professor

538
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,560
Wong.
I think it was Wong, the nicest

539
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,840
guy you ever met.
He was he ran the computer

540
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,360
class, the computer program, the
computer classes in in the

541
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,000
prison in California.
And I loved the computer classes

542
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,920
because I knew they would these,
these learning, learning how to

543
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,880
use these computers was
preparing me for the to get

544
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,080
released back in the community.
Right.

545
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,800
Yeah.
Because I, it was a magazine I

546
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,440
would subscribe to you when I
was in prison called Wire

547
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:23,679
Magazine.
And they talked about computers.

548
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,159
They talked about the Internet.
I remember the term they were

549
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:29,560
using back then.
It was like the Internet

550
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,920
superhighway.
Yeah.

551
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,320
They weren't wrong, huh?
Yeah, and I was like super high.

552
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,080
Where the hell does this highway
go?

553
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:45,120
Like it was, it was just like,
and like looking back now, that

554
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,400
was the, the best decision I
ever made was to educate myself

555
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,280
in prison.
So when I got out here, I had

556
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,760
tools that I could use to earn a
living.

557
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:01,240
And, and it's, it's as part of
my even my writing today, I

558
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:05,240
remember having access to
computers and you're actually

559
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:09,360
learning how to type.
Yeah, small, like small stuff

560
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:14,560
like that have fundamentals,
basic stuff that I still use

561
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,360
today, even just the functioning
of computers or just

562
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,400
understanding technology.
And as a whole.

563
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,520
It, it actually started in
prison because we would.

564
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,440
I remember professors saying
stuff like, yeah, well, the

565
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,480
world you're in here, the world
out there is still it, advanced

566
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:36,520
moving.
Yeah.

567
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,480
Do you think about that a lot?
I was actually going to ask you

568
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,240
about that.
At any point over those 12

569
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:42,360
years, do you think, were you
nervous to go back out?

570
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:47,080
Absolutely, absolutely.
And and I think the more I read

571
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,560
about it, the scarier it got
right.

572
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,720
So, so much so that when I got
released in in 2006, I actually

573
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,320
the first thing I did was take a
a computer class at A at a

574
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:01,920
Baltimore City Community
College.

575
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,920
Good for you, man.
Seriously, These are such, these

576
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,120
are such great like decisions.
It's so they're so proactive

577
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,640
too.
Like they're not like you're

578
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,680
not, you're not, you're not like
you're, you're creating these

579
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:18,240
opportunities for success for
yourself rather than kind of

580
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:20,040
waiting for them to come along.
I mean, that's really

581
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,200
incredible.
Yeah, and I think even with the

582
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,200
writing now, so I'm actually
working on two other books I've

583
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:28,800
got.
I've got 4 published.

584
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:34,960
I just released the 4th book, A
Life for life, Poor choices and

585
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,040
Unresolved Trauma is Killing
America.

586
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,720
And I got 2 that I'm actually
one is I think it's finished or

587
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:46,840
close, 80% finished and another
one is about 50% finished.

588
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:54,480
So I'm actually thinking about
20272029 and having books ready

589
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,440
to go when So when we get to
that point, you know, I can

590
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,120
continue that jerk.
So when you talk about pro being

591
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:08,480
proactive, yeah, that's I think
it's a big part of just just how

592
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,680
do you how do you seek success
in life?

593
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,400
And like you said, you can't
just wait around.

594
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,920
You have to be cool.
So what is 2027 gonna look like

595
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,080
for me?
What is 2028 gonna look like for

596
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,040
me?
And if these are these are

597
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:30,720
things that a kid growing up in,
in West Baltimore in the drug

598
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:35,040
business might not even consider
because you think about it,

599
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,640
you're 18 and all your friends
are getting shot and going to

600
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,640
prison.
All your friends are getting

601
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,680
shot and getting murdered.
You don't even, you're not even

602
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,080
if you're 16, you might not even
think about.

603
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:47,960
You might not even think you'd
be alive at 20.

604
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,800
Yeah.
And and that's how we thought,

605
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,120
like we didn't even, we didn't
even think we would be alive at

606
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,200
25, let alone 30.
Wow.

607
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,320
Right.
So it takes years and it takes

608
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,760
years and it might even take
therapy for you to get out of

609
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,960
that mindset.
It almost.

610
00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:10,720
Certainly takes therapy, right?
Yeah, in my first book, I, I

611
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:17,240
called it it, it's the I, I'm
neck syndrome, right, Right.

612
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,640
I'm next syndrome you feel.
Like a dread and doom that goes

613
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,760
over you when something happens
and you realize that you could

614
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:24,960
be the next person for it to
happen to.

615
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,680
I'm.
I'm next and you and so you're

616
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,120
living your life that way.
You know, you're living your

617
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,440
life in the sense that I won't
even.

618
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:34,920
So how'd you snap out of that
perspective?

619
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:35,960
How'd you how'd you get out of
that?

620
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,080
Therapy.
You went there, do you?

621
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:40,440
You went to therapy while you're
in prison, No.

622
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,080
No, no, no.
So I think while I was in

623
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:50,440
prison, I just think you, you,
you also evolve and you grow and

624
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,880
you think about it, your brain
is still developing at that

625
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,680
young age.
And even when I was in, my brain

626
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,440
was still developing while I was
in a prison cell, right?

627
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:06,480
Reading books from Frederick
Douglass and and Reginald F

628
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:11,080
Lewis business books.
So your, your brain is still

629
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:16,680
developing.
So I think it started to wean

630
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:22,520
off then and then reading where
you see like, oh, there's a

631
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,520
beach in South Africa, right?
Oh, there's a mountain in New

632
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:31,960
Zealand or, or Venezuela, right.
It's it's a, it's a big,

633
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,720
beautiful world out there.
And you start realizing like,

634
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:40,160
oh, let's Baltimore not as big
as I thought it was.

635
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,920
Like there's a whole world.
I remember reading books on Cuba

636
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,760
and Fidel Castro and the
beautiful people of Cuba and

637
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,960
just wanting to just walk
through this, the beaches, walk

638
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:58,360
the streets of like historical
Havana, right?

639
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,840
I read books about that while I
was in prison.

640
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,000
But it helps you help you have a
better understanding from a

641
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:07,840
young person from West
Baltimore.

642
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:13,160
There is a big world out here.
And just reading about it is

643
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,480
motivation within itself to want
to go see it.

644
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,440
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I try to, it's
funny because I teach high

645
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,040
school English part time, and
one of the things I always like

646
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,560
to do with my students are like,
why am I learning this?

647
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:27,680
What does it ever do with my
life?

648
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:29,840
I'm like, forget about that for
a minute.

649
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,040
I was like, just the fact that
you learned that something else

650
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,120
exists out there, that's what's
valuable, you know, just the

651
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,080
fact that you like know that
something new exists in your

652
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,880
brain creates that space for
something other than what you

653
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,920
know in your tiny little world
exists.

654
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,240
Like that's what's the valuable
part about learning, You know,

655
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:49,200
like, OK, if you don't use it in
the future, you don't use in the

656
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:50,480
future, but at least you know
it.

657
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,440
At least you can think of it as
you can use your imagination and

658
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,040
creativity and associations and
and and do something with this

659
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,800
and without that exposure.
How you going to do that, you

660
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,320
know?
Yeah, yeah.

661
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:08,200
I agree to 100%, 100, yeah.
Yeah, so, so, so, so all that

662
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:09,800
reading was made.
Do you still read a ton?

663
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,440
Man, if I could show you what's
sitting in front of me right now

664
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,720
in my office, I got about 100
books.

665
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:20,720
Wow.
And you know what?

666
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,880
As a writer, you do a lot of
research.

667
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:32,680
And so I, I, I research so much
that sometimes you literally

668
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:37,000
your brain hurts, right?
Because if you wanna, if you

669
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,360
wanna write about civil rights,
I'm, I'm telling you now, you

670
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:46,120
better do some research and you
better, you got a lot of

671
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,680
homework to do.
So you don't sound foolish when

672
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,320
you're having these
conversations, right?

673
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,440
If you wanna write about the
issue of substance abuse

674
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,000
prevention and mental health and
all you better, you better be

675
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,960
willing to do some studying.
So I'm an avid like Reese I I

676
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:11,360
spend about I spent about 60% of
my time researching and about

677
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,320
another 1440 writing.
I believe that.

678
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,600
I believe that.
I mean, the research takes up

679
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,320
the way I can even tell you from
a podcast perspective or from a

680
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,920
sales perspective with, you
know, the other jobs that I have

681
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,800
that most of my time is
dedicated, like most of my time

682
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,360
is dedicated to research and
homework.

683
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,360
And then everything, you know,
and the rest of the stuff just

684
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,640
kind of falls into place as I
arm myself with the, with the

685
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,240
information that I need, you
know, but but that's the real,

686
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:41,080
the real valuable part is, is
familiarizing yourself with the

687
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,280
waters you're going into.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

688
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,320
I mean, you better be willing
to, you know, and, and, and, and

689
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:54,040
a lot of that man is also, I, I
just learned years ago that if

690
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,400
you're gonna be putting yourself
out there, at the very least you

691
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,560
should know what you're talking
about.

692
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,960
Cause credibility matters.
But also you don't want to be

693
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,920
putting inaccurate information
out in the world, right?

694
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:14,040
If, if, if, if you writing a
book on whatever it is, you

695
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,200
know, say it's sports, right?
Techniques, techniques and

696
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,600
tackling on the field, right?
For some kids, you, you want to

697
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,360
know, you want to provide good
information so these kids don't

698
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,280
go out there, end up getting
yourself injured or hurt, right?

699
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,840
Sure.
So that goes even even if you're

700
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:39,040
talking about other stuff like
addiction, the causes of

701
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,520
violence in communities, sure.
Diversity, equity, inclusion.

702
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,000
If you're going to talk about
these things, excuse me.

703
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,880
If you want to write about these
things, at least you should know

704
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:53,360
what you're talking about.
Yeah, I think that in addition

705
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:57,080
to I think it's impossible for
anyone to really have the answer

706
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,920
because a lot of this stuff is
also personalized and subject

707
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:05,080
to, you know, you know, this the
person, the background, they're

708
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,960
from, their history, their
genetics, you know, all that

709
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,360
stuff that like, you know, it's,
you know, especially going to

710
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,040
talk about something so diverse,
like addiction, right?

711
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,680
You know, there's so many
different types and so many

712
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,040
different causes and roots And
like, you know, you know, you

713
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,720
could speak and you know, I
think one of the most beautiful

714
00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:26,960
things when people kind of speak
from their own experiences and

715
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,640
other people relate because you
accidentally, you know, you

716
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,240
didn't even realize, but you
just shared and set off a spark

717
00:44:34,240 --> 00:44:36,160
in someone's mind that they
didn't even know that someone

718
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,560
else had even also exist.
You know, like it was a lonely,

719
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,720
scary, isolating world for them
and then they find out that

720
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:44,520
someone else experiences it.
Great.

721
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,560
You know, that really that
that's a beautiful thing.

722
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,040
But you know, there's I think
that there's going to be a lot

723
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,640
of times where when you're
putting out information where

724
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,200
it's relevant to you and not to
necessarily everyone else.

725
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,160
And I think that people have to
also be aware of that, you know,

726
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,800
like I have to be aware of that.
We're not, you know, I mean, you

727
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,000
know, I what, you know what,
when I'm talking to my sister,

728
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,680
you know, just the fact that I'm
a first born oldest, you know,

729
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,840
son and you know, and she's the
third in the family and

730
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:18,480
everything about the way that we
grew up was just, you know,

731
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,760
different in terms of our
relationship and dynamics.

732
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,720
Like she, you know, I can't tell
her how she feels.

733
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,880
You know, I can't tell her, you
know what, what, you know, I

734
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,360
could tell her what, what my
experiences and hope that she

735
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:30,800
and hope that she can understand
you relate.

736
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,360
But I wouldn't think that, you
know, I wouldn't, you know, I,

737
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:38,000
I, I wouldn't.
I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm very

738
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:45,560
skeptical to, to, to kind of
have one explanation for almost

739
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,880
anything, you know, Yeah.
No, that's true.

740
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:56,200
I I think the the the where
where it gets complex is that so

741
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,880
math math tells the truth,
right?

742
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,400
Sure, 2 + 2 is is is always
going to be 4, right?

743
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,440
Right, right.
And to some degree science is,

744
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,960
is, is the same way to some
degree, right?

745
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:15,360
Sure.
But also, I think often

746
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:20,320
sometimes as well, you, you,
you, it's in the concept context

747
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:25,680
of an opinion, right?
I think when you're so when

748
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,560
you're writing and and and
you're expressing the opinion,

749
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,280
you got to be real clear about
I'm expressing an opinion about

750
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,280
a subject, a subject because I'm
not going to see it and act like

751
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,560
I've always got everything
right, right.

752
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,440
I think it's very.
Important to to to say, hey man,

753
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,000
I'm saying this as my opinion.
You know this is my experience

754
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,120
with this, right?
Yeah, you're right to not state

755
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,640
it as an objective fact.
Yeah, put it into the, into the

756
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,800
context of, hey, this is my
life, my, you know, from my

757
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:55,280
experience, right.
Totally.

758
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:56,640
I, I'm totally with you on that,
by the way.

759
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,160
That's a great, that's a great.
That's a great point.

760
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,720
What, what, what I can say for
100% certainty is that I've

761
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:10,520
always put in the effort to to
get the to search for the

762
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,680
answers.
You know what I mean?

763
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,440
I've always 100% that's.
The beauty in life, that's the

764
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,360
fun.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

765
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,520
And that's the that's the beauty
of also so right.

766
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,480
But even because you're in
search of that don't always mean

767
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,480
you, don't you, you found it,
right.

768
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,080
But but you do because there are
people out here that write and

769
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:36,640
and take shortcuts, right?
And don't source material all

770
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,880
the time, but just from, but
just from a writing perspective,

771
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:47,760
I put it, I just put a lot of
effort in just trying to, I call

772
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,760
it corro, corroborate things.
Sure.

773
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:52,000
You know what I mean?
Yeah.

774
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,200
Definitely.
And again, I've I've always got

775
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,080
it all right.
Probably not, but I've I've

776
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,920
always but 100% I put in effort.
Definitely.

777
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,960
I remember the man, my first
literate agency told me, she

778
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,800
said.
You when you die, these books

779
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,400
still gonna be on the shelf and
people still people still going

780
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,080
to read them and they.
Probably read more of them after

781
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:18,880
you die.
You know that's the that's the

782
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,920
rule with the artists, right?
Excuse me?

783
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,400
You're most valuable after
you're dead.

784
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,680
Yeah.
So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

785
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:32,920
I don't know how much it's going
to help at that point, but.

786
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,880
Right.
I know that's the tragedy of it.

787
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:37,360
That's the tragedy of the
artist.

788
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,240
Yeah, it is.
Man, I think we were just about

789
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:44,680
the 45 minute mark, right?
Yeah, we, yeah.

790
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,280
So I think there's an awesome
introduction to the

791
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,360
conversation.
I think this is a perfect Part

792
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,480
1.
I hope that in a couple of weeks

793
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,240
we'll meet, We'll do Part 2 in
person with some video.

794
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,760
And Kevin, man, I just wanted to
say first of all, I think that

795
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,200
anyone's starting this is going
to be I can't wait for Part 2,

796
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,080
you know, right away.
But thank you so much for the

797
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:09,280
time and thank you for dude, I'm
judged.

798
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:14,080
I'm so impressed, you know, and
you ever think, you know, one of

799
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,520
my favorite impressed with my
favorite words because it means

800
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,680
like you left an impression.
You're like pressed against

801
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,080
someone and like making a
tangible difference, you know,

802
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:22,880
like hearing, hearing these
convert, you know, hearing your

803
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,720
stories and hearing this
conversation is, is impressive

804
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:28,000
to me.
You know, it sticks with me.

805
00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:32,040
And I really look forward to
continuing meeting you, man,

806
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,160
and, and to continue the rest of
the story and talking about a

807
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,280
lot more things.
Psychological therapy, you know,

808
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,760
reform advocacy.
I want to look, we're going to

809
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,520
talk about all that kind of
stuff, but I think there's a

810
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,520
beautiful way to start it.
Thank you so much, Kevin.

811
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,400
Yeah, absolutely.
And so when we start off next

812
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,560
time, let's start off with the
the White House off.

813
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,960
Make a note White House office
and national drug control

814
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:54,600
policy.
You got it, man.

815
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:56,680
Awesome, Kevin.
I appreciate it.

816
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:58,120
Thank you so much, man.
Have a great weekend.

817
00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,080
We're going to be in touch.
All right.

818
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:00,360
OK, talk soon.
Bye all.

819
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:00,920
Right.
Take care.

820
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:01,040
Bye.