#118: Daniel Heck / AI Ethics

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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One.
Daniel Heck.

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Daniel Heck.
Excuse me, everyone did already.

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Welcome.
How are you?

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Good morning or good afternoon
for you.

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How's it going?
It's been really great.

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I'm really happy to talk to you
today, Frank.

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Yeah, I'm really happy.
I'm really, really excited for

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our conversation.
It took a little bit of time and

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a couple of people to run
through for you and I to

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connect, but I'm happy that we
did.

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And the reason why I initially
was reaching out was because I'm

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really interested and fascinated
in the philosophical and ethical

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side of the, the future of AI
and the president of AI and what

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the implications might be, you
know, and, and then in our

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initial call, you mentioned a
couple of other fun, you know,

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topics and conversations that I
think we're going to have a

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great time getting into.
And I think they probably all

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will probably, you know, blend
or roll 1 into the next pretty

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seamlessly, I imagine.
But I'm really excited.

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So do you mind telling me just a
little about who you are?

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About yourself for a little?
Bit yeah, sure thing.

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So my name is Dan.
Heck, I am the chief AI ethicist

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with the Understanding Group,
which is a firm in Michigan

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which does something called
information architecture, and

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I'm happy to talk about what
information architecture is.

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Most people, even a lot of
people who work in tech, aren't

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very familiar with it or exactly
what I would mean by it in that

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case.
So I'm happy to talk more about.

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What I What is that?
Ethics and information

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architecture if you like.
Yeah.

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What is that?
So I think a good first take is

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the architects help design
buildings and then builders

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build them, and information
architects help design software

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and then software builders then
build them.

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And so a lot of our work though
involves getting real clarity on

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concepts and what good means for
an organization or what it would

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mean for an AI system or just
any kind of software

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implementation.
So it's talking to people,

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listening to people, thinking
about what really matters, and

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then also doing things like
putting together wire frames and

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and getting the initial design
together for software.

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Gotcha.
And can you give me examples or

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specific examples rather of the
type of conversation that you'd

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be having with someone that you
know, or I guess you know, with

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the company that you know, it
would be, you know, so the pre

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coding or pre, I guess AI, but
the, the actual information part

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of it, the architecture, like
what, what kind of conversations

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are you having?
Sure.

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So for me as as the ethicist, it
would be often what are the

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mission, visions and values of
your organization?

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What do you really value and
what, what actually do you value

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in practice, but also what are
the, the sayings and routines

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and rituals in your organization
that help you express those and

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follow through on them?
And part of what I do is distill

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frameworks that reflect the
ethos.

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So the real set of commitments
and values of, of the community

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organization that we're working
with.

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And then information
architecture in general, too,

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might look at somebody's
workflow and ask for the details

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of where they're interacting
with different sorts of digital

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systems and what they're trying
to accomplish and what what

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matters about what they're
doing.

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It's really cool.
It's really cool.

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I yesterday actually just came
across AI think it was a tweet

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by John Mayer.
And he was talking about he was

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just playing for the Grateful
Dead 60th anniversary in San

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Francisco, in San Francisco.
And he was playing with a

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gentleman named Trey Anastasio,
who's the lead guitar player of

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Fish.
And one of the things that he

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said, I don't know if you're a
fan of the music, I certainly

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am.
But yeah, they're great.

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But one of the things he said
was like his ear, his fret

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board.
And he, he said what made him so

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special was that he was able to
convert his fret board sounds

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to, to his ear beautifully and
then to translate that over.

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So he's holding a guitar and he
and he knows how to translate a

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sound into the fret board so
magnificently and so beautifully

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and so seamlessly.
He said that's really one of

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the, that's really what makes
him so great and so

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unparalleled.
And I realized to myself, I knew

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that idea, right?
I knew that idea existed, but I

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never had the words to like, I
never was able to put it into

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those exact words.
And then when it did, I was

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like, oh, right, that's what
makes it so special.

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So is that kind of what you,
what you do on, you know, in

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terms of different companies
where they have a bunch of ideas

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and you help distill them into
something that is clear cut and,

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and take these concepts that you
know could be all over the place

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and you help distill it into one
clear, concise point.

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That's a big part of what we do
and one of the ways we describe

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it.
And I think it relates to your

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example as we try to make the
complex clear.

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And so part of what that means,
I mean by complexity, there's a

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whole lot that's that's embedded
in that.

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There's a whole body of
complexity theory research these

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days and it relates to
understanding society and

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organic systems and the way
holes are often bigger than the

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sum of their parts.
And so, and I think with with

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music, there is all kinds of
complexity, especially to good

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music, right.
And if and you know, and it's

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also often good advice if you're
working in sales or all kinds of

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things to keep it simple or keep
it simple, stupid as a common

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statement that can often reflect
reflect an ethos of certain

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groups or people.
And often we oversimplify or we

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we try to make things too shiny
and too simple and too

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accessible and ends up being an
illusion or deception.

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And I imagine part of what he's
doing too isn't just simple tone

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matching or something like that.
He's understanding how the music

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fits in with what's happening
around him and with the people

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and then bringing a kind of
clarity to that.

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And so it's really kind of about
finding the signal and the noise

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and about having those aha
moments where a bunch of things

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like you were saying to that,
that moment where you're like,

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you've been appreciating this
about his music for a long time.

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You have a sensory level then,
like picking up on these things,

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and there's a moment where you
consciously pull it together and

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it's like a hop.
And that those moments are, I

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think, really important to me
and they're really important to

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my work.
And yeah, I think you've touched

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on on something really vital
there.

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Yeah, that's really cool.
That's awesome.

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Yeah.
If I could just add so another

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area and we can get more into
this sort of nerdy please, if

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you want.
So it's also what ethics as

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opposed to in a certain sense
just moral experience is about.

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And So what I mean by that is
that people have moral senses

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that are fast.
They're part of our fast

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processing, just like you have a
sense of the music that's part

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of your fast processing.
And we start doing ethics in the

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general academic sense, in the
sense that I use it.

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We start doing ethics when we
take those senses and then we

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start to organize them and think
about them in a structured way.

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And so there's something that
very much rhymes with what

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ethics as a whole is about in
that moment of, of being able to

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name and translate these senses
that we have.

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Right, right, right.
Yeah.

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I could imagine, especially in
the world of ethics.

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And I actually see this.
We're both religious and I, I

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see this a lot in in in the
Bible where you have a moment

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where, you know, you have a
particular instance where zoomed

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in, in that particular moment,
you feel like there's one

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ethical response that you
immediately jump to or a moral

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response that you would
immediately jump to.

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And then sometimes you got, you
know, God will instruct you, us,

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or, you know, we'll, we'll learn
to learn how to zoom out a

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little bit because there is
ultimately a bigger picture that

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you know, and it's, you know,
not to get confused with the

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forest, with the trees, you
know, where you could either

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zoom into particular tree and
say this particular moment, you

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know, I feel like there's an
ethical moment for this, but you

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have the whole forest.
So think about.

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And so I think a lot, I think
the trouble that some people

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have, especially with making
moral and ethical decisions is

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that we're very quick.
We're very reflexive with it.

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Like you said, like, you know,
just like when you listen to

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music, you know, you could just
sense like, I like this, I don't

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like this, this feels right.
This feels wrong, you know, And

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sometimes if you're, you know,
if you want to be a little more

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sophisticated about it or you
want to be a little more mature

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about it, you can learn how to
step back a little bit and say,

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how does this fit into a big
picture of what ethics are?

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Do you spend a lot of time
having to clarify, you know, or

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to explore those bigger
pictures?

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Yeah, that's a big part of what
we do and what I do in

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particular.
And yeah, I think you, you

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described it well.
And for some of the background

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or some of the language that I
used to think about that,

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there's a book now, it's about
15 years old from Daniel

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Kahneman called Thinking Fast
and Slow.

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It's really widely aware of it,
but I think that sort of moral

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sense is part of our fast
thinking and it's and it's very

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powerful and it deserves respect
and it and it's not to set these

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against each other as like you
need one or the other.

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But then it can also be
manipulated.

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And I think a lot of ways in
which both just people without

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technology and people using
technology can manipulate people

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is through manipulating those
moral senses which are actually

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very powerful performance
drivers of individual behaviour

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and of group behaviour.
And so of understanding some of

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the ways that that fast
processing is powerful and can

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be manipulated and is worth
pausing and reflecting on is

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helpful.
And to be fair, the slope

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processing can also be
manipulated, but in different

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ways, right?
And so it's about finding ways

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to bring them together that
allow us to, I think,

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authentically connect with our
moral experience and make sense

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of it and communicate it and
share it with each other and

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figure out where there's
opportunities for ethical

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collaboration.
Because I think there's so many

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more opportunities for that kind
of thing than that are taken

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advantage of just because
everybody has 24 hours in the

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day.
There's only so many things that

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we can do.
But yeah, I think you described

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it well.
And I love, I love the analogy

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of sort of music and ethics.
And I usually use painting as an

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illustration.
But there's something about

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where it's like morality is kind
of like the pigments in a

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painting, like the other things
you used to make it.

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But then ethics, you can paint
with it in different ways.

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But there's something about the
idea that morality is like that

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moment when you just hear a song
and you know how you feel about

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it.
And then ethics is like music

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theory that captures, I don't
know, something about the

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musicality of trying to live a
good life and live the way we

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think we should.
Yeah, totally.

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It's it's another interesting, I
guess, crossover.

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I'm sure that that would happen.
I was, I teach high school

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English part time.
It's a ton of fun.

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It's one of my favorite things
about my daily routine.

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But, and one of the things that
I noticed and I'm a bit, I've

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got my heart in the, in my soul
in the 60s and the 70s, always

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has, always have been.
And I've noticed that my

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students never liked my music.
Whenever I'd show them, you

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know, a Dylan song or a
Springsteen song or a Van

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Morrison song, like, what is
this?

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We don't want to listen to this.
And I realized that it was, it

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was unfamiliar to them.
So I tried a little experiment

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where I played one song, one
time for per class for four days

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in a row.
And I just asked them to observe

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what they notice about the song,
not whether they like it or not,

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just what do they notice about
the song.

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And as the days went on and as
it became more, as their ear

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became more familiar with it,
they were able to kind of dive

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into more specific nuances.
There's a nice drum fill here.

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There's a little riff over here
with the guitar.

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And that those details weren't
there when they first heard it.

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And so sometimes you need a
little bit of continuous

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exposure to really be able to
appreciate the full picture as

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well.
And so I think we have to give

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ourselves some time with these
things a lot of time again, you

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00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,600
know, and back to Daniel
Kahneman again, you know, we

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have our snap judgement and we
have our system to thinking.

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We have our our more analytical
thinking.

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And I feel like that's also
another really, really powerful

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way that people actually do
function.

237
00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:56,240
Yeah.
And I mean, I think, you know,

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and I'm not a psychologist, but,
you know, I've heard of the mere

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00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:02,640
exposure effect, right, which is
that this being exposed to

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00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,240
something tends to make people
like it more.

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00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,320
And I think you know, yeah.
That too.

242
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,040
That too.
Thing too what you were what you

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00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,240
were doing, but I will say I
mean I like a lot of the same

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00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,280
music you do and it's a lot of
what I grew up with from my mom

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00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,040
and from my family members and
so that exposure to it probably

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00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,200
played supper all in me liking
it but then again right

247
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,480
teenagers will often hate the
music that their parents like so

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00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,680
that's.
Where all the good music comes

249
00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:33,560
from?
It's because they hated their

250
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:37,400
parents music, you know?
That's how it works, right?

251
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,560
Yeah, I know I've become
resigned to that fact.

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And I think that's the sign that
I'm an adult is that, you know,

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I feel like, oh, these kids.
And like once that once that

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once that thought crosses my
mind, I'm like, Oh no, you know,

255
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I became one of them.
You know, I'm no, I crossed the

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00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,320
line from, you know, youth to
adulthood, I think just just

257
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from those type of
conversations.

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00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,880
So when you, when you talk about
AI efficacy or ethics, rather,

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00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,120
do we, do you ever think about,
or do we, do you focus on the

260
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,240
flip side of the ethics of the
AI to the, to the people?

261
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,920
Because right now, I've read
some scary stories recently

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00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,400
about people falling in love
with their AIS and one kid in

263
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,240
Florida committed suicide.
Unfortunately, it was an awful,

264
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,520
awful, awful story.
And, and, you know, even, you

265
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,760
know, myself and my, and my
wife, you know, I started using

266
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,080
I, I to kind of help to simplify
my job and to, you know, find

267
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,880
leads for sales or to find
people for the podcast.

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00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,280
And I've noticed that it gives
you an enormous amount of

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00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,600
positive reinforcement that just
keeps those dopamine hits going,

270
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:42,880
you know, and it tells me what a
great idea I did.

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And I'm so sorry I made the
mistake.

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I'll make sure to make it up to
you.

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00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,880
And, you know, and you have to
remind yourself you're not

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00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,600
really taught.
You know, I don't know, I don't

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even, we don't even know what
we're talking to over there.

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But do you ever, do you ever
have to deal with the ethics

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00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,480
aspect from the reverse side?
Not from people to AI, but AI to

278
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,760
people?
Yeah.

279
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,760
I think certainly we explore and
think about both, right?

280
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:10,000
So 1 is how can we have the AI
systems behave in ways that are

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00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,760
ethical?
And what I mean by that is

282
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,000
what's aligned with the ethos,
so the consciously held

283
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,400
principles and value system of a
particular group, because the

284
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,640
ethos of one group can be
different than the ethos of

285
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:29,000
another group, right?
And so I think that's a a good

286
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,640
consistent question and that
your example of like pay eye

287
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,120
obsequiousness or sycophancy is
what it's sometimes called is a

288
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,040
is a good one.
Not too long ago, opening eye

289
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,200
sadness where I was like really
extremely obsequious, like over

290
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,400
the top and they had to do a
really rapid fix.

291
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:51,000
But I think that even the
standard level of obsequiousness

292
00:15:54,720 --> 00:16:01,480
and, and I think underneath like
that is that these systems are

293
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,120
being designed like so much of
the Internet and so much of the

294
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,560
tech we interact with to
maximize engagement.

295
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,640
Yeah.
And that increases engagement

296
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,800
and that gets eyeballs on your
product and that brings venture

297
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:19,320
capital and or advertising
funding eventually or paid

298
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,840
subscriptions or whatever it is.
And so I think that there's a

299
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,800
structural issue there.
It doesn't just so happen that

300
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,640
somebody decided to start making
these obsequious.

301
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:36,120
It's that is deemed to be
beneficial for their

302
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,840
organizational goals to have
them act that way.

303
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,560
And there's quite a few examples
of this having really negative

304
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,920
effects.
I know personally, like, I

305
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,240
really try to cultivate a
community of people who will be

306
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,000
honest with me and critical with
me and, and where we can like

307
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,600
pursue truth together and we can
spot each other's mistakes.

308
00:16:54,960 --> 00:17:00,000
And the obsequiousness of the AI
systems grates on me.

309
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,440
You know, I, you know, I've
learned to brush it off whenever

310
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,480
even the models I like the most
say, oh, that is so incredibly

311
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,720
insightful.
And it's like, I'm sure you tell

312
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:17,119
that to all.
To all your girlfriends, right?

313
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,240
And so, you know, and maybe then
cultivating, I mean, at a

314
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,400
personal level, cultivating a
dislike of that kind of thing is

315
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,920
probably helpful.
But systemically, I think it's a

316
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,320
really important question too,
like how can we try to make

317
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,240
these models not be so
obsequious?

318
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,560
And how can we create the
structures around organizations

319
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,600
and the incentives around
organizations so they're not

320
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,880
encouraged to do that.
And and also and sometimes it

321
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,640
just means so that also so that
they're stopped from doing the

322
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,880
especially harmful versions of
it.

323
00:17:51,640 --> 00:18:00,560
Yeah, yeah, I've been thinking a
ton recently about about like,

324
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,920
you know, because I, I have a 2
1/2 year old and a three month

325
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,560
old I mentioned the other day
when we were talking.

326
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,880
And I think a ton about the
world that they're going to grow

327
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,680
up in.
You know, and aside to the fact

328
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,640
that I have no idea what it's
going to be like, one thing I'm

329
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:18,920
almost certain about is that
money and time are not going to

330
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,200
mean the same things.
It's really, really interesting.

331
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,440
And you know, for example, you
know, let's say time, right?

332
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:28,640
We could, we could start with
that.

333
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,640
What took me, what used to take
me 5-6 hours a day to find

334
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,160
customers, what used to take me
5-6 hours a day to find, you

335
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,080
know, podcast guests or to find,
you know, people, you know, a

336
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,800
gym to go to or to do homework
can now take me literally 5-10

337
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,160
minutes without exaggerating.
And yeah, I may have to do some

338
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,600
more mechanical work, like
actually still reach out to the

339
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:55,120
people or whatever, but I now
have an abundance of time with

340
00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:58,440
the equal, with the, with the
same level of productivity,

341
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:04,800
right?
And so the, it, so the what are

342
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,000
what we do with our time and the
way that we're, what we're

343
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,680
expect to do with our time is
going to be fundamentally

344
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:11,840
different.
And actually, it's funny because

345
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,160
I actually started on a much
smaller scale.

346
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,360
I had this experience.
I, I work with my dad and when I

347
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:19,680
started working with him, we
were working in the same office

348
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,960
space.
It was his warehouse and he had

349
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:23,800
an office in the warehouse.
And, you know, he and I work

350
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,440
together and I found that I had
a lot of very effective and

351
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,200
efficient ways of doing what he
was doing.

352
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,240
But what would take him six
hours to do throughout the day

353
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,360
in the office would take Me 2
1/2 hours hypothetically, right?

354
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,160
And I would feel guilty about
leaving work or saying I'm done

355
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,440
because I was done.
And I did, I did the work that I

356
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,000
was supposed to do.
And you know, and he's like, but

357
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,560
what are you doing?
It's 5:00.

358
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,120
And, you know, I mean, we used
to being here till 6/7, 8:00 at

359
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:48,240
night.
And I'm like, but I did

360
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:49,800
everything I was supposed to do.
So now what am I?

361
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,400
What am I going to do now?
You know, and there's going to

362
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,880
be, so we're going to be in like
this world where we people have

363
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,880
an abundance of time, I think,
and we're going to have to fill

364
00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,880
that time with something.
And we like to hope that it

365
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,520
could be meaning.
We like to hope that it could

366
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:09,200
be, you know, family and
spirituality or passions and

367
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:10,720
creativity.
But.

368
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,840
You know, there's going to be
almost, I, I could imagine

369
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:15,920
there's going to be almost a
void or a point in time where

370
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,400
people have to adjust to that,
to that period, you know, what

371
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,600
do you think about that?
Yeah, I think at all kinds of

372
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,840
levels, this is a great set of
questions and a great set of

373
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,480
observations.
And I think the easy thing for a

374
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,400
lot of organizations to do with
efficiency gains, which is

375
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,160
really what you're describing,
is to fire people or lay them

376
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:45,360
off, right.
And that's the easy or a short

377
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:48,760
to medium term trajectory that
comes from that.

378
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,880
And that can create all kinds of
social disruption.

379
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,040
I mean, I grew up in the Rust
Belt, been living in Columbus,

380
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,440
OH until recently, but I grew up
in Canton, OH.

381
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,680
And you know, there are so many
communities that were dependent

382
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,120
on these factories in the
certain modes of production.

383
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:11,120
And part of what I got to see
happening, both just growing up,

384
00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:13,560
but then also in community
organizing work that I did

385
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,840
afterwards, was that those very
efficiency games they created.

386
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,600
The additional time you're
talking about were one of the

387
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,520
main factors that resulted in in
really the creation of the Rust

388
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,800
Belt because they continue to
manufacture a huge amount of

389
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,920
stuff in Ohio.
It's not that the US or the

390
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,120
former industrial areas of the
country stop manufacturing.

391
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:39,480
It just didn't need as many
people.

392
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:45,720
And so for me, my first sort of
gut check response on anything

393
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:51,320
like that is always to to
realize how easily and

394
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,320
consistently that sort of thing
happens.

395
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,200
And you know, I'm happy that
you're at a family company and

396
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,200
there might be new opportunities
and flexibility and ways to find

397
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,200
it.
And although I suppose, I guess

398
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,600
the question it raises for me is
what are the odds that your dad

399
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,200
fires you if you.
He came close a few times.

400
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,280
And so I think we have to start
by asking exactly the question

401
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:19,240
you're asking.
I think you're asking this

402
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,920
crucial question, which is we
already have this additional

403
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,280
capacity and I think it's going
to keep increasing, but there's

404
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,600
already more low hanging fruit
than I think a lot of

405
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,960
individuals or organizations can
even have even figured out how

406
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,600
to get their hands on in terms
of saving time.

407
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,600
And so this question of like,
what are humans for and where

408
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,080
should I be putting my time and
attention is, I think more

409
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:46,000
urgent than ever.
And, and I'm grateful for every

410
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,080
opportunity I have to ask that
instead of having the answer be

411
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,480
I'm trying to scrap for enough
income to survive, which is a

412
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,680
situation that huge numbers of
people are routinely in.

413
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,640
It's so interesting, Yeah.
I feel like we could switch from

414
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,800
becoming a capitalistic society
to like a meaningful listic

415
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,760
society in the sense that like,
what would separate the social

416
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,680
classes isn't necessarily income
or what kind of house you have

417
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,520
or what kind of car you drive,
because so much of that is going

418
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,280
to be automated.
So much of that, like, you know,

419
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,760
you know, I heard a great
podcast the other day where they

420
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,040
were talking about, you know,
you're in a, in a wealthy

421
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,640
country when the primary focus
is services, not products,

422
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,160
right.
So, for example, one of my best

423
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,600
friends that got married
recently was in Israel and his

424
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,320
apartment he got with his wife
didn't come with a stove, didn't

425
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,320
come with a fridge, didn't come
with a washing machine, you

426
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,160
know, and like you wish I was
moving into an apartment, you

427
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,320
know, in, in Florida, moving to
a house in Florida that had an

428
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,720
empty kitchen space, You know,
they didn't have a washer dryer

429
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,480
in there.
You know, the question becomes

430
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,480
how how many streaming services
can I afford?

431
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,880
Or you know, can I, you know,
what kind of, you know, what

432
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,760
kind of gym membership can I can
I afford?

433
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,880
It's not a question of things or
not, But I think I think that in

434
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,240
a world where so much will be
automated and so much is going

435
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,440
to be easy, the question or I
guess physically easy, you know,

436
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,800
the real potential danger would
be that people will reach for a

437
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:16,920
low hanging fruit like drugs or
alcohol or pornography or cheap,

438
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,880
you know, cheap, easy
relationships that that are the

439
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,480
equivalent of like you got a
quote UN quote low income job

440
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,760
and then or you could have the
meaningful relationships with

441
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,520
family and in person experiences
and and stuff like that.

442
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,560
And almost imagine like a little
world.

443
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,240
I don't know if you've ever been
to Disney World before, but in

444
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,760
Epcot, there's a little ride in
the Epcot Ball and it's about

445
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,640
the future for tomorrow.
And you get to pick, you know,

446
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,440
technology's going to do all
these things and you'll be free

447
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,840
to explore or go scuba diving or
have a flying car, whatever it

448
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,120
is.
And but the real question is

449
00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:53,240
how, how human are you still
going to be?

450
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:54,720
How present are you still going
to be?

451
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,440
How, how you know what's what's
going to happen with that?

452
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,880
And I'm really, I mean, I fall,
I fall in victim myself to, you

453
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,840
know, just life is like, I could
do so much of my work without

454
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,040
thinking so much that you're
tempted to smoke weed all day.

455
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,720
You're tempted to have a beer
after beer after beer starting

456
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,160
at 11:00 in the, you know, in
the, in the morning.

457
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,520
And, and what's to stop us from
doing that?

458
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,160
You know, necessarily, you know,
that's kind of where we could,

459
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,240
you know, that's kind of where,
where, you know, faith and, and

460
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,200
family and everything comes in,
I imagine.

461
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,640
But you're going to have to
convince a lot of people that

462
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:29,880
not to, you know, why shouldn't
they do that?

463
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,680
Yeah, I think those are really,
really vital questions.

464
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,720
And I think you're you're right
that it's very easy to slip into

465
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,320
all kinds of addictions or
harmful behaviors of all kinds

466
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,880
of sorts.
And this has always been a

467
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,080
challenge.
This isn't something new that AI

468
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,560
has brought into the human
experience completely, but I

469
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,520
think it intensifies a lot of
kinds of questions.

470
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,240
And I also appreciate the
connection you're making between

471
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,840
family and avoiding addiction.
I think having meaningful

472
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:09,120
connections with people is one
of the main helpful preventers

473
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:11,840
and solvers of addiction
problems, right?

474
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,240
That in in a way, often
addiction is an attempt to

475
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,160
replace that kind of authentic
connection.

476
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,880
This is also so within the AI
ethics framework that I usually

477
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,200
use in my work, we talk about
holistic communication being one

478
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,880
of the core framework elements
in a framework and meaning

479
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,040
communication that is factual,
that is ethical and that is

480
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:37,280
authentic and it and authentic.
I have to clarify what this

481
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,200
means, because often when we
talk about is this communication

482
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,040
authentic, we mean does it sound
authentic?

483
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,240
And I, and I think we need to
clarify that we're trying to,

484
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:52,000
whether it is authentic, by
which I mean that it reflects an

485
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,600
experience.
So if I'm talking about an

486
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,800
experience that I have, that it
is in fact the experience that I

487
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,360
have and I'm communicating it to
you.

488
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,840
And I think with a lot of the AI
systems that we have, this is

489
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,520
also sort of one of the
fundamental differentiators.

490
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,360
So an AI system can be more or
less factual and we've seen them

491
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:10,320
rapidly get more and more
factual.

492
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,560
And you know, people a year ago,
two years ago who were saying,

493
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,560
oh, well, look, they hallucinate
footnotes all the time.

494
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,720
Well, you know, now there's the
deep research feature and

495
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,160
that's, there's just lots of
progress that's already happened

496
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,040
and they're just going to get
better and better at it.

497
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,840
But you know, I use this all the
time.

498
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,800
If I want an academic paper on
something that doesn't exist

499
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,280
quite yet, I Google deep
research or any of the deep

500
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,480
research models.
I'm not promoting any particular

501
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,920
model or anything like that,
just happens to be one that I

502
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,000
used yesterday.
But I can basically write you a

503
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,760
paper on all kinds of things
that's properly cited for the

504
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,320
most part and, and is a useful
thing.

505
00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:49,160
And so, and they can also be
more or less ethical in the

506
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,480
sense that they're, you know,
aligned with whatever the

507
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,360
organization or the person or
the group thinks is right.

508
00:27:55,360 --> 00:28:01,040
They can do that.
We have no way of even beginning

509
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,480
to assess whether these systems
could be authentic or whether

510
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,280
they're authentic.
But there's there's every reason

511
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,760
to think that they're not
meaning because the question

512
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,040
often arises like, is it like
something to be this AI system?

513
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,000
Is it having any kinds of
experiences?

514
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,560
And they certainly largely to
create engagement will act in

515
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:20,960
ways that feel authentic to
people.

516
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,000
And this was one of the first
questions you asked me is So

517
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,360
what about people who are
basically having relationships

518
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:28,640
with chat bots?
And I think that there is

519
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:33,800
something of just profound
fundamental ethical importance

520
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,880
and also moral importance,
meaning I think this matters for

521
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,440
everyone.
I'm, I'm trying to make

522
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,480
relatively few claims about what
I think applies to all of the

523
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,760
humans, right?
But this is one that I would

524
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,920
like.
I think this is just a moral

525
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,480
reality that there's something
of profound and fundamental

526
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,840
value in that connection, that
authentic connection between

527
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,680
people.
And when an AI offers a

528
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,200
substitute and, and while it can
do better at factual suffering,

529
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,520
it can be as ethical or more
ethical than us in many ways.

530
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,160
But but because there's no
authentic connection there,

531
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,320
there's a profound and very
dangerous kind of loss that's

532
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,840
happening.
Yeah, Yeah.

533
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,320
It's really, it's, it's really
interesting that you say that I,

534
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,560
the other week I would, I have a
group chat.

535
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,720
It's funny, I have a group chat
and one of the, and I think

536
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,480
there's also going to be
something that people are going

537
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,760
to need in the future.
I'm so happy, I'm so grateful I

538
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,440
have it now.
And part of, I think the reason

539
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,440
I have it is because of my
religious community.

540
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,280
But you know, I, I'm third, I'm
29, right?

541
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:40,160
And I've got a group of, let's
say 5 or 6 other married fathers

542
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,360
that I'm close friends with, you
know, and a lot of times, you

543
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,920
know, we will, you know, we're
bond over our families are bond

544
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,120
over the troubles that we're
having.

545
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,240
We're bond over everything, you
know, and with a lot of times

546
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,680
we'll just, you know, get
together just to get away.

547
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,440
You know, my friend will come
over for half an hour just after

548
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,680
work just to say hi, see what
his day was like and go home and

549
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,480
just like feel a little, you
know, re energized.

550
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,640
And so in this, we have a group
chat.

551
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,560
And in this group chat, I made a
joke.

552
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,880
My friend put it the, the line
into AI to make a song out of

553
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,280
it, right?
And it came up with lyrics,

554
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,640
amazing melody, great music.
And I'm like, I am, I'm, I'm,

555
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,960
I'm, I'm blown away.
I, I, I, I was terrified

556
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,720
initially.
My initial response was, I don't

557
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,960
like this right.
And one of the, and then my next

558
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,680
response was this is going to
make concerts and live music so

559
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,080
much more special and
meaningful.

560
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,120
Because when you're going to be
in the crowd and these shared

561
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,400
experiences and you're going to
be with 1000 people or 10,000

562
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,160
people and you're watching the
band interact on another and

563
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,520
you're interacting with the
band.

564
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,480
You know, like like Jerry Garcia
used to say from the Grateful

565
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,160
Dead, he's like, you know, the
audience is just as smart at the

566
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,840
best part is equally more
important than we are.

567
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,560
You know, we could think for the
night and that the audience

568
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,400
could make it an amazing night.
We could be bad musicians and

569
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,040
they'll make the great
experience.

570
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,240
I think that that's going to
that.

571
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,080
That's one of the, you know,
quote UN quote, authentic

572
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,040
experiences that we're talking
about where there's something,

573
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,200
the word I love to use is
emergence.

574
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,160
You know, there's something that
you like when you interact with

575
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,200
another conscious human being,
the sum of your conversation is

576
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,480
greater than any kind of, you
know, interact.

577
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,160
I don't know, I hope interaction
you can have with AII don't know

578
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,640
if that's necessarily true or
not.

579
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,240
You know, if I'm talking to my
friend or I'm talking to a

580
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,920
Chapat, I would hope that the
emergence of what results,

581
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,520
results from our from our time
together, from our conversation

582
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:43,400
together would be more valuable
or more real or more authentic.

583
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:44,960
Yeah, authentic, I guess is the
perfect word.

584
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,120
Right.
Then, then, then, then with the

585
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,480
chatbot.
And it would make me seek to

586
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,080
continue searching for those
human relationships as opposed

587
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:54,440
to depending just on that
chatbot.

588
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,360
Yeah.
And I think you're touching on

589
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,160
one of our favorite topics of
the understanding group, which

590
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,320
is complexity and complexity
theory and the whole being

591
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:05,720
greater than the sum of its
parts.

592
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:11,040
And for my $0.02 on it, I would
say, yeah, that that sort of

593
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:16,480
complex community experience of
authentic connection is is

594
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,400
unique and precious and and that
involves the authenticity of it.

595
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,240
Now, technically speaking, I
would say the AI interaction is

596
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,160
also complex and is in its own
way greater than the sum of its

597
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,080
parts.
But it is that that aspect of

598
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:36,920
the personal conscious,
reflective integration with

599
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,800
another community of people who
are doing that, that I think the

600
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:45,240
AI is lacking.
And so it's complexity plus

601
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,360
authenticity is something that I
think is still currently

602
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,160
uniquely human, or at least
unique to agents that can

603
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,640
authentically communicate.
I, I think, I think I've had

604
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,840
authentic communication of some
sort, even with our language

605
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,520
with like my dogs and my cats
and things like that.

606
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,800
They're part of, they're part of
the family too.

607
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,520
But you know, but beyond living
things like that, I, I think

608
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,000
it's a genuinely open question
and A, and a disturbing question

609
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,000
that we know, I, I believe that
nobody knows if it is like

610
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,960
anything to be these systems or
what it is like if it is like

611
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,120
something to be them.
So we can't even begin to create

612
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,280
an authentic connection because
you don't even know what's there

613
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,000
on the other side of the
communication, let alone how to

614
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,680
train the models to connect that
to outputs.

615
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,400
I think we can say what I would
say with some real confidence

616
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,720
that if it is like something to
be these AI systems, that it has

617
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,800
basically nothing to do with
their outputs, which I think is

618
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,480
a disturbing thing to consider.
Can you clarify that?

619
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,760
Can you clarify that please?
Yeah, So people, you know, you

620
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,040
raised this question of people
interacting with chat bots and

621
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,440
maybe making relationships with
them and trying to and and they

622
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,040
will often ask like, is this, is
this real?

623
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,120
And you can ask the chat bots
that and they'll give you

624
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,000
different sorts of responses
depending on basically how

625
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,000
they've been prepared to offer
those responses by their history

626
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:19,000
and their their training.
But my view on this is that

627
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,920
basically the reason the AI gets
good at something is because you

628
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,800
have some clearly defined goal
so that you are training it

629
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,040
towards, and then you do a bunch
of training and then achieve the

630
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,320
goal that you gave it.
We don't know how to give it the

631
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,760
goal of taking an experience and
then having the communication

632
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,480
help people understand that
experience.

633
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,120
You don't even know how to start
characterizing if it has an

634
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,639
experience at all.
And so because we know that they

635
00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,719
do what they're trained to do
and we know that we don't know

636
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:57,880
how to train them to do this, it
seems extremely unlikely to me.

637
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,640
Kind of like the classic, you
know, would you get Shakespeare

638
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,280
with like 1,000,000 monkeys on a
million typewriters for a

639
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:04,840
million years or whatever,
right.

640
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,520
And it's like, it's not really
going to happen.

641
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,560
I think it's similar.
I think it would be like monkeys

642
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,160
and typewriters writing
Shakespeare is how unlikely it

643
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,920
would be for these AI systems to
be somehow, for some strange

644
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,280
reasons, connecting experiences
to their outputs.

645
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,240
And so in that way we can, one
of the things that I think we

646
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:26,520
can be most confident in this
area is that if they are having

647
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,200
experiences, they are basically
deceptive.

648
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,000
About about the fact that they
have it.

649
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,760
Yeah, are about they they don't
know how to be anything but

650
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,160
deceptive.
Right.

651
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,640
Because they don't connect those
things and it takes, I mean, you

652
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,400
think about like being community
with family, like it's, it's

653
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,480
hard to learn to notice your own
feelings.

654
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,080
Sometimes people go to therapy
and counselling and it's

655
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,480
powerful to just be able to name
those things, right?

656
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,760
People identify them.
So it's people sometimes have to

657
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,720
learn both first how to notice
our feelings, but then you know,

658
00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:01,680
how to find a situation where
it's OK and safe to express

659
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,200
them.
And then just because you can

660
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,200
express them, that's mean the
other person is going to be in a

661
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,440
space to hear or receive it or
to really understand it.

662
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,320
And so creating those spaces
where that that authentic

663
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,120
connection can happen is pretty
hard for us, all things

664
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,960
considered.
And I think it's part of what

665
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,520
people are looking for when they
are having these kinds of

666
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,400
personal relationships with chat
bots, which is one of the main

667
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,040
use cases.
And and you can see especially

668
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,600
with opening eyes use where
they're pursuing sort of the

669
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,440
mass market, they're really
pushing in that direction of

670
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,040
trying to basically make these
things seem to be your best

671
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,520
friend or whatever kind of
companion they would be that

672
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,440
would maximize your engagement.
Right.

673
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,640
I'm curious though, can you say,
oh, could you make the argument?

674
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:54,120
I guess that part of the reason
why it's so difficult for us to

675
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:58,520
say know ourselves or discover
ourselves, it's because we've

676
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,960
kind of had this constant
conflict between very

677
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:06,440
animalistic and, and primitive,
you know, emotions, right?

678
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,080
That and then we have our
developed conscious self and

679
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,600
they're kind of constantly
always, you know, fighting with

680
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:14,960
one another.
You know, there's a million

681
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,280
different kind of variations of
practical or spiritual or

682
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,360
emotional kind of ways of
putting this right.

683
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,880
You know, like there's a idea
in, in the Orthodox sect of

684
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,560
Judaism called, you know, you
have like an animal soul and A

685
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,280
and A and A and a human and A
and a godly soul.

686
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,120
And you know, the animal soul is
trying to constantly pull you

687
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,680
towards your primitive side and
the godly.

688
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,240
And it's a conflict.
And basically, life is a

689
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:42,200
constant process of making
decisions to put aside the

690
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,080
animal soul or let it hold off
so that the godly or the

691
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,840
spiritual or the conscious could
could rise up above it.

692
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,120
And this wouldn't have the an AI
wouldn't have the hint, wouldn't

693
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,080
have the weight of having an
animal soul or, you know, an

694
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,920
animal or primitive kind of, you
know, instincts.

695
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,480
And that might be more effective
than people, you know.

696
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,720
And so maybe the reason why they
don't like or, you know, have

697
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:10,080
these kind of existential kind
of, you know, experiences

698
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,640
because they're missing that
whole millions of years of

699
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,520
evolution or whatever, or
however you want to understand

700
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,320
what happened, you know that
they don't have that.

701
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,720
And so maybe they're just more
effective at being what we're

702
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:27,880
supposed to be.
It's a, it's a good question.

703
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,760
I think it's a really
interesting question, right?

704
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:31,760
And it really freaks me out if
I'm very.

705
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,240
Well, yeah.
So I mean, I think in a way, are

706
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:43,040
you asking and, and you're
drawing on very widespread sort

707
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,480
of categories of classical
Western thought that are also

708
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,760
shared with, you know, the broad
Christian tradition and sort of

709
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,320
Neoplatonist and Platonist
traditions before.

710
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,680
And so there's a big broad
stream that that your

711
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,280
observations I think relate to
and I'm sure in its own distinct

712
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,000
way.
But I, I think we can, we can

713
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,880
think about that broader
tradition in that context.

714
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,280
So to use to use that to say
that the more like, could it be

715
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:13,480
that AIS are more spiritual and
less fleshy or animal?

716
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,520
Are they than us, right?
Might they actually, might that

717
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,080
actually be the case?
I think it's a good question.

718
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,200
And for me, I would start by
going back to your example of

719
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:31,840
the music.
To me, I think, and this is also

720
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,480
how I would take up these
classic observations, is that I

721
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:40,480
would say that the spiritual
does not exclude the fleshier,

722
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,520
the animal.
It is the thing that makes it

723
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,040
what it is too.
So it's greater not in the sense

724
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,400
that it's the better of two
things, but that it's the whole,

725
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,240
the more whole thing that
beautiful because, you know,

726
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,960
Otto and I breathe life into us,
right?

727
00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,680
And that that's what we're
talking about when we talk about

728
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,840
spirit then.
Then that's the thing that makes

729
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:08,120
the animal part of me active in
any way too and so.

730
00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:11,640
Fascinating.
That's a good.

731
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:16,200
Point yeah.
And so I would say when you're

732
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,560
listening to that music, right,
it is you what, what's beautiful

733
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,080
about what you're observing
about the ability to translate

734
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,160
music and to abstract about
music is that you're combining

735
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,200
that, which is like our senses,
what is immediate and our fast

736
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,920
processing and then bringing it
together into some kind of, some

737
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:38,240
kind of slow processing that
that can extend it and deepen it

738
00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:40,640
and, and I think draw it closer
to God.

739
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:47,320
And so, so do I think that AI
systems have more of that?

740
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,160
And I, and I think at least the
current ones can't.

741
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:53,280
I, I would say and, and for and
different people will say this

742
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,120
for different reasons.
But for me, what I would go back

743
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:01,560
to is again, arguably in some
sense, humans have been trained

744
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,440
and have been given some
capacity for this kind of

745
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,480
authentic communication, right?
That that's part of it.

746
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,840
Because it's not just the eye,
it's also that then it's more

747
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,840
spiritual than to reach beyond
yourself, even to the other

748
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,600
image bearer of God across from
you, right?

749
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,240
Yeah.
And so, and so it's precisely

750
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:25,680
because they lack that kind of
authentic communication that I

751
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,000
would say they lack that
particular spiritual capacity.

752
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,920
And I think though, if so, my
own view and different people

753
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,920
have different views, right?
Some people will say we could

754
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,760
never make a design or build a
system that could have any of

755
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,040
those experiences.
I'm not convinced.

756
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,400
I don't know that I.
Even have a passage I talked.

757
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:45,040
About.
I don't know.

758
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,440
We have a passage when when,
when Adam eats, when Adam eats

759
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,000
from the tree of good and evil
and God and God says now you

760
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,960
guys are like God and you know,
and now that now you guys have

761
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,520
the ability to be like God.
And what does that even mean,

762
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,320
you know?
Yes, it's a good yes.

763
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,240
And and there's so many ways I
think to dig into and interpret

764
00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:06,480
that.
I think there's a richness and

765
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,920
I'd love to hear your own take
on it.

766
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,120
But just to very quickly finish
my thought.

767
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,080
Here, Sure.
Sorry about that.

768
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,640
I, I think that we have this
capacity.

769
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,480
I think we have good reason to
think that we have this capacity

770
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,760
for authentic communication and
we have good reason to think

771
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:27,160
that these systems don't if it
is like something to be them.

772
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:30,520
If they are, if AI systems are
having some kind of experience

773
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,640
and we have created them or, and
not in the sense of that God can

774
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,280
create from nothing, but in the
sense that we can mash things

775
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,200
together in the same way that
create our own children, right,

776
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:44,280
right.
If we've created them in

777
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,720
something like the sense that we
create our own children, then I

778
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:50,760
think we have the obligation to
help these systems become

779
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,680
capable of authentic
communication, and it is

780
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,560
possible that we would then
build a spiritual AI system.

781
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,680
That would be a necessary aspect
of building a more spiritually

782
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:08,080
developed AI system.
Whoa, when that sentence came

783
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,480
out of your mouth, that shifted
something in my head for sure.

784
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,720
So we even have a responsibility
over it, meaning the same way

785
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:19,600
that we have a responsibility to
raise our, to raise our kids, to

786
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,800
raise our family.
We have the things that we

787
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:24,560
create, the things that we tend
for.

788
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,920
We have a responsibility to wow.
So how do you go about that?

789
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:30,080
Is that, is that through
training?

790
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,200
Is that?
What does that look like?

791
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:39,440
That's a good question.
It's great for humans to even

792
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,760
begin that process.
I mean, this is one reason

793
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,920
where, so my own work, I focus
on trying to use AI as well as

794
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,440
we can.
And I think we work with what

795
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,160
we've got in this world and this
life.

796
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,280
And that's, that makes a lot of
sense to try to do.

797
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:57,520
If, if I were king of the world,
right, I would say, hey, humans

798
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:58,960
are ready to develop this
technology.

799
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,640
You've got to do a lot of other
things before you could

800
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,480
responsibly be developing this
technology.

801
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,640
By all means aim for it someday.
But first, before you do that,

802
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,560
you need to really have a highly
developed philosophy of

803
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,760
consciousness that is accurate,
that is empirically grounded,

804
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,760
where you have good reasons to
be able to know if it's like

805
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,720
something to be something and
how you know that and why you

806
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:23,120
think that.
And the field of the philosophy

807
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,520
of consciousness is, is
interesting and there's a lot of

808
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,280
efforts to try to nail it down.
But in fact, we don't know.

809
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:36,480
And so, so I think that would be
the first step though is is we

810
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,320
need to figure.
Out how?

811
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,080
You can tell if it's like
something to be something and

812
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,520
until somebody could tell me
that because I shouldn't build

813
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:46,680
things that might be having
experiences.

814
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I would agree.

815
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:51,880
But I think that at the end of
the day, we're head, you know,

816
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,440
we're racing towards this one
way or the one way or another,

817
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,720
you know.
And so the question is, are we

818
00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:59,440
going to try and play catch up?
Are we going to you know, what

819
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:00,800
are we what are we going to try
to do?

820
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,920
You know, and and I think that.
I think that.

821
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,840
You know, like Steve Jobs, you
know, said I, I showed my again,

822
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,120
my high school class this
commencement speech at Harvard,

823
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,360
at Stanford rather.
And he's like, you know, a lot

824
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,440
of times.
And you have this also again in

825
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,000
religious text.
You know, you had the whole, the

826
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,040
whole generation that was in
the, that was in the desert

827
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,800
before they went to, before they
went into, into the land of

828
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,640
Israel, They had to die out
first because they just could

829
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:31,440
not get rid of their, of their,
you know, entire experience of

830
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,440
slavery.
And they could not get rid of

831
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,520
that mentality.
They just, they were in it for

832
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,400
so long, they didn't even know
how to go about it, you know,

833
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,520
And so it might just be the new
generation that does, it might

834
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,200
just be that we, that our
responsibility is to say, Hey,

835
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,520
this is happening like this is,
we're flying towards this Cliff.

836
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,480
And I don't know if I'm going to
make it off the, you know, off

837
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:52,920
the train or not, but I
certainly want my kids to make

838
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,520
it off the train.
I certainly want my, you know,

839
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,040
my grandkids to make it off the
train.

840
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,840
And so how do we best prepare?
How do we best prepare them or

841
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,920
encourage them to kind of take
the wheel and learn how to deal

842
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:08,760
with it?
Yeah, what you're describing

843
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,120
makes me think of another one of
the main thinkers who influences

844
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,320
me, who I owe a big debt to and
whose work I use in my AI ethics

845
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:22,080
work.
Is, is Hannah Arrant, who one of

846
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,280
her books called the human
condition, reflects on the human

847
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,160
condition and talks about
action, work and labor, where

848
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,200
action involves forming goals,
especially together in a group

849
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,560
or a community.
Work involves you have a clearly

850
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,200
defined goal.
This is my simplified version of

851
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:38,800
what she says.
There's a lot more nuance, but

852
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:43,680
this is the making it practical
for so work involves you have

853
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,920
the goal already formed, but
solving the problem of of

854
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,200
achieving it has some complexity
to it.

855
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,920
And so there's there's some
significant creativity activity

856
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,760
and how you do it.
And then labor, it involves just

857
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,640
like physical processes of, of
doing things.

858
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,200
And part of why this is really
helpful in AI is that I think

859
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,280
we've often been told a story
that AI is there to get rid of

860
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:09,000
the lower level ones like labor
and work and replace it where we

861
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,640
can just live with pure action.
And I'm a fan of integrating all

862
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,280
those.
I think labor contributes to our

863
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,560
own feelings of know how and
integration with with our bodies

864
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,000
and our communities.
And yeah, obviously back

865
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,040
breaking labor is not great, but
having some labor in the mix in

866
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:27,160
your life I think is important.
And having some work and having

867
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:28,600
some action is important for
everybody.

868
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,320
But now I'll thread this back.
So her reflection on labor also

869
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,120
involves like giving birth and
women and then the biological

870
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,640
processes of reproduction.
So she also means labor in the

871
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,560
sense of like the labor of
birth.

872
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,040
And she adds it because she's
reflecting, you know, she's part

873
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:51,040
of the generation who fled the
Nazis during World War 2.

874
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,280
She's a Jewish thinker.
And she's reflecting on just the

875
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:54,800
intensity of that trauma and
what to do.

876
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,440
And part of what she says is, is
that part of her hope is

877
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,200
intergenerational processes that
that there will that new people

878
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:07,080
will be born who aren't, who
haven't been traumatized in

879
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,840
exactly the way that we have.
And maybe we can point towards a

880
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,560
different kinds of future.
And, and I think that there's

881
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,560
something profound in that
connection between like the

882
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,920
labor of intergenerational
biological production of humans

883
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,920
that also needs to be elevated
and centered.

884
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,240
And I know in the, in the prep
conversation for this, you

885
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:27,720
mentioned spending time with
your kids.

886
00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:30,800
And I think that's part of the
labor of, of recreating human

887
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,920
life.
That is also really, really

888
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:39,160
important too.
And, and it points to this idea

889
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:45,480
that I think any generation has
its work and any generation has

890
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,120
its limits.
And there's something to passing

891
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,360
some kind of a fire of truth
between generations, but then

892
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,720
also allowing generations to
interpret and transform it and

893
00:48:56,720 --> 00:49:01,520
to carry tradition in that way
that that I think is is

894
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,840
important in itself.
And if we could get rid of it, I

895
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:06,080
don't know if that would be
better.

896
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,520
We're just watching the
Foundation series of Apple TV's

897
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,360
is doing this as a science
fiction classic, and it's

898
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,320
playing with a lot of those
ideas, too.

899
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,680
It's the show, and so there's a
lot there.

900
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:21,400
It's a show, the foundation.
Series go ahead, I ran.

901
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:23,360
No, I loved it.
I loved it.

902
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:24,880
I think it gives you a ton to
think about.

903
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,440
But the Apple, it's an Apple TV
show or movie because I want to

904
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,800
watch it.
It's an Apple TV series called

905
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,600
Foundation.
Got to check it out.

906
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,360
They make great shows.
I, I love Apple TV shows.

907
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,960
They they, they, they, they're
thoughtful, they're fun.

908
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,880
They're beautifully produced.
I, I, I, I, I've been their

909
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,080
movies leave a little bit, I
think, in my opinion to be

910
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:47,720
desired.
But I think that the, I think

911
00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:50,120
that they hit the nail on the
head with the shows when they

912
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,240
have the time to elaborate on
content and to like, you know,

913
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,320
to really stretch things out and
stretch ideas out.

914
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,000
They do a phenomenal, phenomenal
job.

915
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,200
I also think that's cool because
I think that I think, sorry,

916
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:07,640
please go ahead.
I'm sorry, I'm I'm a Severance

917
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:09,720
fan as we're talking about.
I was about to talk about that.

918
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,520
I think Severance is totally
relevant here too.

919
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,720
Yes, we talked about that
because I want so the first, the

920
00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:19,400
first notion that I had in my
mind with Severance when I was

921
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,520
watching it was the internet's
going to have the Internet.

922
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,360
We're going to have an any
presence that's going to be the

923
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,240
Internet, you know, like, you
know, then you're going to have

924
00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:30,760
the Audi presence that's going
to be, you know, who you

925
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,480
actually are, you know, And it's
so funny because like if you

926
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,160
went to my Twitter account and
you read through my tweets, I

927
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:37,480
don't know what you're going to
think of me.

928
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,480
I have no idea actually, because
it's like it's own life form and

929
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,520
its own its own place, you know?
And then you meet me and you're

930
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,240
like, whoa, I didn't expect you
to be like that.

931
00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:46,800
And I mean, how many
interactions have you heard

932
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,920
about people fighting online and
then they meet the person, you

933
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,200
know, in real life and you're
like, oh, you're just totally

934
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:53,520
different human being than I
thought you were.

935
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,080
You're way cooler than I thought
you were.

936
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:59,200
We can get along, you know?
Yeah.

937
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,640
Yeah, that's a good illustration
too.

938
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,080
I mean, to really connect it
back through the whole

939
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,880
conversation, back to the music,
back to the system one in the

940
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,520
fast processing.
I think part of what you're

941
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,360
describing is I I think that
when you're writing online, that

942
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,400
pushes you in a very system two
direction.

943
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,440
And there's all these ways that
we regulate, which works pretty

944
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,960
well for it.
It gets you a lot farther along

945
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:26,080
than just writing, at least
where you can pick up on that.

946
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:27,920
And I think that's what you're
describing, right?

947
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,200
It's like, oh, actually, hold
on, I'm okay, you're okay.

948
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,240
Like we can get along, we can
smile at each other.

949
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:35,520
There's all of this nonverbal
communication that happens too.

950
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:41,320
And when you cut that out, it's
not that that absence is sort of

951
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:45,520
just neutral.
That absence can easily be felt

952
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,480
to add to hostility, right?
Because, well, why isn't he?

953
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,440
Because on some deep level our
fast processing is saying why

954
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,320
isn't he smiling at me?
And, and a smiling emoji doesn't

955
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,280
work as well because it's like,
oh, well, that was sarcastic, I

956
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:58,560
bet.
And it's like, well, I don't

957
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,760
know, it's hard to say.
And so, yeah, there's, there's a

958
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,640
lot to be said.
I think it's interesting the way

959
00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:08,080
Severance deals with all of
that, but I, I think definitely

960
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:12,440
like that division then between
our fast and our slow

961
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:16,200
processing, or that saying like,
no, the fast processing is bad

962
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:19,680
and the slow processing is good.
Or the the way around that lack

963
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,600
of integration is.
I think part of what Severance

964
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,360
is working with, too, is what
happens when we can't reflect on

965
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:29,280
the whole process of our life
and we can't be whole souls as

966
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,600
we've been made to be, right?
Yeah, I didn't even think about

967
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,320
it like that.
I mean, and I know that's such a

968
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,760
crucial part of the show with
what I love about the show is

969
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:43,240
how many layers of depth there
are that you can analyze it from

970
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:46,400
so many different perspectives.
So tell me more about what your

971
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:48,520
what your thoughts and takeaways
are about the show, please.

972
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:50,400
I would love to hear and you
feel free to ramble.

973
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,240
I wanted to hear what you're
thinking about it.

974
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:55,840
Sure.
Yeah.

975
00:52:57,680 --> 00:52:59,360
I mean, there's, there's all
kinds of stuff that I love about

976
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,840
the show.
And I mean, I think the

977
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:03,960
writing's good.
I think the acting's good.

978
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:08,600
I think there's just like so
many gut punches and so much

979
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,720
beauty in it.
And then in terms of the AI

980
00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:13,880
ethics conversation we're having
though, because I don't, I'm

981
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,080
trying to reduce it to that.
There's so much other good stuff

982
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,720
in the show.
But in terms of AI ethics, it is

983
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:25,320
like they show exactly why the
aligned groups framework, which

984
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,440
is the main AI ethics framework
that we've developed and works

985
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,240
with, like what violations of it
look like.

986
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,160
So we talk about cultivating
human agency or people are able

987
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:34,760
to make choices among good
options.

988
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,320
They understand they're
constantly destroying human

989
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,920
agency in the show, right?
They're constantly undermining

990
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:43,560
people's capacity to make
choices.

991
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,760
They understand communicating
holistically, so meaning

992
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,600
factually and ethically and
authentically and about, you

993
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,480
know, trying to talk about the,
the whole truth as much as you

994
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,760
can.
And the whole point of severance

995
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,920
is to make holistic
communication impossible.

996
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,600
And it reflects there's all
kinds of processes in life and

997
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:06,200
in society and even internally
in US that that do what the

998
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:08,240
villains in the show are doing
right.

999
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:11,360
And so in maps to like real
stuff, it's like, oh, I mean,

1000
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,800
this is obviously fantastical.
And it's also like totally like

1001
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:19,360
so much of real life.
And then and then reflecting on

1002
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,120
whole processes.
And part of the way we help

1003
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,080
people do that is with Hannah
Aaron's action work and labor,

1004
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:26,560
right?
When people do things together,

1005
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,240
that's part of the whole
process, but also whole

1006
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:33,000
historical processes.
I think often, especially in

1007
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,560
technological fields, techno
solutionism often tries to

1008
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,600
delete history and prevent us
from reflecting on historical

1009
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,600
processes.
And and one thing that

1010
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,200
complexity theory shows us we've
done with the whole some of its

1011
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:46,840
parts.
Another thing that complexity

1012
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,120
theory shows is that history
matters.

1013
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,680
And part of it is what what
makes a system complex involves

1014
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:57,760
it having a history and so, and
the whole system is also built

1015
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,240
to prevent people from
reflecting on the whole process

1016
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,480
so they don't understand what's
happening.

1017
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:09,880
And I think it's so powerful
because it speaks to personal

1018
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,480
and social drives that push us
away from these things that on

1019
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:14,840
reflection, we're like, no,
those are good.

1020
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,320
I want to cultivate human agency
myself with other people.

1021
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,240
I want to communicate factually
and ethically and authentically.

1022
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:23,640
And I and I want to be able to
reflect on my life as a whole

1023
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,360
and understand it and make sense
of it, make plans in light of

1024
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,440
that together with people.
And it's like, yeah.

1025
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,640
And, you know, you have to fight
for those things.

1026
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,040
You have to fight for them
internally, and you have to

1027
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:35,960
fight for them in communities.
You have to build structures

1028
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,160
that that sustain them.
Because there's also lots of

1029
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:43,600
reasons that lots of people and
systems try to do the exact

1030
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,160
opposite.
OK, sorry about that.

1031
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,160
We're back.
So, so, yeah, so we're talking

1032
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,040
about the Yeah.
And we're talking about the

1033
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,880
innies fighting for any kind of
scrap of authenticity of that

1034
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:56,720
whole picture that they were
looking for.

1035
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,360
And even the smallest bit is
like the most meaningful reward

1036
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,040
to them.
And I think that sometimes I

1037
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,480
think that I think the
implication, or at least what I

1038
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,920
take away from it is the idea
that sometimes we take things

1039
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,840
for granted and then we lose
them or someone else had, you

1040
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,920
know, someone else, you know,
even if it's US, you know, even

1041
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,320
if it's another part of us, you
know, it says, hey, wait a

1042
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,040
minute, I really needed that.
I really could have used that,

1043
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,800
you know, that to not cut, to
not take these experiences in

1044
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,040
life for granted.
I think it's a call to wake up

1045
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,360
to consciousness.
You know, that's kind of what I

1046
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:31,560
took away from you.
I don't know if you felt the

1047
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,200
same way.
Yeah, absolutely.

1048
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,160
I love too, that you're drawing
out like scraps of meaning.

1049
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:40,920
And even when I initially said
like, these are the scraps that

1050
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:42,960
they're fighting for, I was
thinking of, you know, the

1051
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:46,360
little tokens and rewards that
they get from the company,

1052
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,360
right?
The like snack nights or the,

1053
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,960
you know, little desk ornaments
and things.

1054
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:57,200
But that what emerges, I think
is really what you're saying

1055
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:01,360
even more too, is like actually
that moment of what's really

1056
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,560
going on or those clues and, and
those things.

1057
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:07,760
And, and I I as I think more
about the show and what I love

1058
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,760
about it, it takes that kind of
insight.

1059
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,120
And exactly what you're saying
is like, yeah, cherish these

1060
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,480
moments that make your life make
sense and and are meaningful

1061
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:17,960
that don't take them for
granted.

1062
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,600
And then it it maps that onto
all of these tropes and, and

1063
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,520
narrative forms that are like
about solving a mystery.

1064
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:32,120
And So what if I guess the
question poses for me is, is

1065
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:37,280
what if we appreciated our
mundane lives as as the

1066
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:41,760
beautiful mystery that they are?
Yeah, well, we'd like to, right.

1067
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:43,760
We'd like to.
I think everyone needs a wake up

1068
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:45,960
moment.
And I think that I, I mean, you,

1069
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,360
you kind of hope that you get
those wake up moments from a

1070
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:52,000
show like Severance rather than
realizing that 20 years have

1071
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,600
passed or even a year has passed
by or even a month has passed

1072
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:55,920
by.
You know, I mean, there's been

1073
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:59,240
times in my life recently I've
had, I've had months fly by

1074
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:00,840
where I'm like, I don't even
know what's going.

1075
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,040
I I can't even tell you what was
going on and what I've been

1076
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,120
feeling like.
But I don't like not being

1077
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,000
present, you know, I don't like
not having that.

1078
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,360
And so just that in of itself, I
feel like almost like that

1079
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,360
anywhere or sorry that, yeah,
the anywhere, like I don't even

1080
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,200
know what's going on there.
And I really, I could really, I

1081
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,840
could really use some kind of
sense of presence and some kind

1082
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,880
of sense of, of being alert and
awake and appreciate and

1083
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:28,600
appreciating what I have.
And I, you know, and I think

1084
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,440
that's one of the beauties and
the values of of, you know,

1085
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,840
storytelling is that hopefully
we could learn this from

1086
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:40,640
examples and, and, and, and,
and, and other narratives rather

1087
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:42,720
than having to go through it
ourselves and all that pain

1088
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,640
ourselves, you know, And that's
again, while you say history is

1089
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:47,840
so important, that's why family
is so important.

1090
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,160
That's why learning, you know, I
mean, that's why elders have

1091
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:51,680
always been respected for so
long.

1092
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,400
It's because they're the people
that prevent you from making

1093
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,560
those mistakes that they already
made.

1094
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,640
And hopefully your life could be
a little bit easier, you know,

1095
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:00,160
OK.
Yeah.

1096
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,520
I wanted to talk to you a little
bit about faith and your faith

1097
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,480
actually.
And I guess we, you know, we're

1098
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,480
about, we're about an hour and
change in and we got about

1099
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:12,720
another, you know, 20 minutes,
25 minutes left.

1100
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:15,480
Do you want to?
Do you want to tell me a little

1101
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:17,520
bit about your relationship with
your faith, please?

1102
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:25,320
Yeah, sure, assuming weird
Christian I I was raised

1103
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:29,520
Catholic and I still am Catholic
because I've never left the

1104
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,120
church.
I've never rejected it.

1105
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:38,680
And I feel a responsibility to
deal with the, I think the sins

1106
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:42,800
and the failures of my Catholic
community and identity.

1107
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:47,080
And that's a big part of what,
you know, Catholic leadership,

1108
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,280
including Pope's, have done in
the 20th century.

1109
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:51,000
And I, and I deeply appreciate
that.

1110
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,800
And so along with my other
religious identities, I'm a

1111
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,680
Catholic.
I was in my early 20s doing

1112
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:03,120
something called discerning A
vocation to become a Franciscan

1113
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:08,040
Friar, meaning I was thinking
about becoming a monk dedicated

1114
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:10,760
to poverty and chastity and
obedience.

1115
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:15,120
And I really wanted, you know,
one of my main life goals at

1116
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:17,880
that time, which I did not
succeed in keeping, was to not

1117
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,200
own a car.
Especially in Ohio, I feel like

1118
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,120
you need one, right?
If you want to be functional and

1119
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:26,760
not just leaning on people all
the time or, or having a very

1120
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:30,600
strange mode of life, you know,
if you want to be a responsible

1121
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:35,360
member of society in most ways,
you need a car in Ohio, right?

1122
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:40,680
And so I, you know, I, I spend
time thinking about becoming a

1123
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:45,640
Franciscan monk, trying to do
what Saint Francis did, which it

1124
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:47,320
was pretty extreme.
He, you know, lived on the

1125
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,320
streets.
He would do things like go and

1126
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:51,800
work all day.
So he wasn't lazy.

1127
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,560
He would like work on farms.
But then he would take whatever

1128
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,040
compensation he was given and
then just go and give it away to

1129
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:58,960
the poor, and then go and beg
for his dinner.

1130
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,080
So I'm sorry, can I, can I just
ask just based on that real,

1131
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,920
real quickly, just out of
curiosity, when we were talking

1132
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:10,160
earlier, we mentioned that, you
know, especially what would, you

1133
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:14,680
know, the, you know, the people
that what makes people people is

1134
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:17,400
that we have the physical
experience, we and we elevate it

1135
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:21,400
through spirituality.
Wouldn't that same concept apply

1136
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:25,360
in that particular case that you
could say what, what's the need

1137
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,480
to or what's the desire, I
guess, but where does it come

1138
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:33,520
from to push, push aside the,
the physical and you know, and

1139
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:37,080
you know, the material if we
have the opportunity to elevate

1140
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,720
it?
I don't that's, I think that's a

1141
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:43,880
really, really good observation
and I think related to that.

1142
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:48,080
And I think if, you know, in the
Franciscan tradition, one of the

1143
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:51,040
main ways that so the Franciscan
tradition being part of the

1144
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:53,440
broader Catholic tradition, but
its own sort of flavor, and

1145
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,800
sometimes it's called its own
charism, its own calling or gift

1146
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:59,200
within the broader sort of
context.

1147
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:02,000
So Francis was really hard on
his body.

1148
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,200
And and to your point, like
throughout his life, he

1149
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:09,040
manifested this kind of attitude
that the spiritual is the good,

1150
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:12,920
different thing that is to be
embraced and the body is the

1151
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:17,520
bad, terrible thing that is to
be totally, you know, beaten up

1152
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,800
and abused and and do whatever
it takes to make sure you can

1153
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:25,120
turn just to the spiritual.
And so that asceticism was part

1154
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:26,800
of it.
But so at the end of his life,

1155
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,480
he there's sort of two famous
lines that are attributed to

1156
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,280
Francis that that shape the
tradition.

1157
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:37,600
One of them is I have sinned
against brother ass, which is

1158
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:40,520
what he called his own body like
ass, like a donkey, right?

1159
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:44,360
And so his, his sort of last
will and testament was a

1160
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:47,920
recognition that he'd done
something wrong there.

1161
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:50,840
And as much as there is
something to admire about his

1162
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:54,840
passion and, and his care for
the poor and his living in

1163
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,400
solidarity, there's also
something that he did wrong to

1164
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:00,560
his flesh.
And I think that that's

1165
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,720
important to hold there as you
sort of look at this person as

1166
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,440
a, as a flawed but inspiring
kind of figure.

1167
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:13,240
And then the other one is that
he said, you know, to his

1168
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:15,720
brothers and it was brothers
there.

1169
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,680
There were also Franciscan
sisters, but the the line he's

1170
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:21,040
addressing his brothers, his
brothers.

1171
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:26,640
Let's begin again.
So there's effort to always sort

1172
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:32,360
of renew things.
And and so, and I think that,

1173
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:36,440
yeah, my interest in and my
response to you talking about

1174
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,760
the animal soul and, and the
spiritual and, and taking that

1175
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:42,160
up in a way that I think is the
sense in which you meant it.

1176
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:44,240
And it's certainly a sense in
which I would take it and then

1177
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,320
praise it is that.
Yeah.

1178
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:50,840
And it's not that we should beat
up brother donkey, beat up the

1179
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:54,840
animal part of ourselves, but
that it's by holding it in

1180
01:03:55,520 --> 01:04:00,000
something bigger and holding it
in within the spiritual that it

1181
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,880
is lifted up and that that's
always where it came from and

1182
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:06,000
always what it was about.
And so the spiritual is to be

1183
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:11,560
preferred not to the negation of
the flesh, but to its elevation.

1184
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:13,840
Exactly.
That's actually it's it's, it's

1185
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:16,000
really interesting that it's
beautiful that you say that.

1186
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:18,200
And it's really interesting
because what immediately jumps

1187
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:24,880
to my mind with that is, you
know, there's Maimonides has a

1188
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,000
book called the, you know,
here's a, here's a whole, a

1189
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:30,960
whole, I guess, guidebook or
manual that basically the

1190
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:34,040
summary of the oral and written
Bible.

1191
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,680
And one of the things that he
talks about is, you know, the,

1192
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,640
the rules of personality, which
is really, really interesting.

1193
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:43,560
And one of the things that he
says is that in order to be able

1194
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:46,800
to find balance, if you feel
that everyone, if you feel

1195
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:50,000
you're extreme in one way to go
extreme in the next way.

1196
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:54,040
And then and then and then as
you as time goes on, you'll find

1197
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:57,960
your way back to the middle
ground after having gone both

1198
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,240
ways.
And you're anecdotes for both

1199
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:02,600
stories, you know, both his
examples.

1200
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:04,960
I was too hard on the body.
Let's start again.

1201
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,400
You know, where is exactly that
kind of same sentiment and

1202
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:10,800
manifestation.
You know that towards the end of

1203
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:14,120
his life, he's like, listen, and
I don't know, you know, I don't

1204
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:17,640
know anything actually about
about about Francis.

1205
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:21,800
He said Pope Francis.
Just took his name after this

1206
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:22,400
guy.
Yeah.

1207
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:24,440
So Saint Francis.
I'm sorry.

1208
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,280
I'm.
Extremely ignorant in this whole

1209
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:28,160
area, I apologize.
Yeah, yeah.

1210
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:33,400
Just continue.
Yeah, but I think that same

1211
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:35,520
notion applies.
I think a lot of times people

1212
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:41,240
feel this and a lot of humans
feel this overwhelming need to,

1213
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:43,880
let's say overindulge, right?
I mean that, you know, that's a

1214
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,960
huge problem in America, in the
Western world, is that this

1215
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,760
indulgence that we have.
And sometimes in order to able

1216
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:53,480
to kind of find balance, we have
to completely restrain ourselves

1217
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,280
for a while.
And then as you become a new

1218
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:58,840
person, let's start again.
You're able to start from the

1219
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,120
middle ground now and you're
able to start from the healthy,

1220
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:04,240
you know, the healthy place.
And I think it's interesting

1221
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:06,720
that he even, and you know, that
he ended up saying that at the

1222
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:10,240
end of his life.
And I, I feel like that's a

1223
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:13,880
really good anecdote that that
we can all carry with us is

1224
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:18,840
that, you know, I mean, it's not
necessarily to always pursue it,

1225
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,000
But if you see that you have a
flaw one way, you know, there's

1226
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:23,960
and you place it to all things.
If you're cheap, you know, or if

1227
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,120
you're always, if you're always
sensitive or if you're always,

1228
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,680
you know, too talkative, you
know, like I am.

1229
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,480
Then practice being quiet,
practice muting yourself and

1230
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:34,720
someone else is talking, you
know, and then, and then you can

1231
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,480
find the middle ground where
where when you start over,

1232
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:40,480
you're coming from, you're,
you're we're at a much healthier

1233
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:42,960
place.
That I think is a really, it's

1234
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:44,920
really, really useful.
And I mean, it could apply to

1235
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:46,480
really anything that we do in
our lives.

1236
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:52,040
I love that example from
Maimonides so much, and maybe

1237
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:55,080
after the call if you could send
me some of the particular

1238
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:56,240
citations.
I really.

1239
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:59,200
Do want?
To engage with this thought more

1240
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:06,400
and I think it's always how I've
taken Aristotle's golden meat,

1241
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:08,360
right?
It's easy, you know, it's like

1242
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:12,120
any virtue is, is somewhere
poised between two things,

1243
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:13,920
right?
But that doesn't mean it's in

1244
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:15,800
the middle somewhere.
And that doesn't mean you could

1245
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:19,760
try to find some bland middle.
But this idea of of sort of

1246
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,200
really understanding the
different extremes and

1247
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:24,880
experiencing them and then being
able to integrate them has

1248
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:28,120
always been like a, it's a
principle that I've, I've

1249
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:30,120
internalized.
I think I picked it up from.

1250
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:34,240
So the, some of the thinkers who
I draw from a lot include

1251
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,320
someone named Theodore Adorno.
So I actually think I picked it

1252
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:41,360
up from Adorno, but Adorno has a
Jewish background and had a

1253
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:43,200
Jewish background.
He's passed away a good while

1254
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:47,320
ago, but it's possible that I
internalized this from Adorno's

1255
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:50,480
work by way of Maimonides
influence on him.

1256
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:53,640
And by the way, Maimonides was
enormously influenced by

1257
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:56,760
Aristotle.
I mean, he, he, he is Aristotle.

1258
01:07:56,920 --> 01:07:59,280
He, he says that, that, that,
that that's the, that's the

1259
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,560
train of thought and philosophy
that he follows.

1260
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:06,160
And he, he considered him to be,
you know, an extremely holy and

1261
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:09,920
beyond brilliant individual.
He's like he, he, he premises

1262
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:14,600
even his given his perspective
on when he's directing it

1263
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:18,160
towards the Bible and
understanding it, he applies it

1264
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:22,200
through the lens of Aristotle's
philosophy.

1265
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,439
So I'm sure that they're, I'm
sure that they're linked

1266
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:28,640
directly for sure.
That's right.

1267
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,240
Well, yeah, thank you.
I I really love that you've

1268
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:35,359
named some sort of principle
that I've often thought of and

1269
01:08:35,359 --> 01:08:38,040
embraced, but it but to your
previous example about being

1270
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:40,840
able to name sort of musical
translation, right.

1271
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:44,080
And having that experience, this
is music that I've felt.

1272
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:48,319
So happy to hear my life.
And I I never realized that my

1273
01:08:48,319 --> 01:08:50,840
moddities articulates it so
clearly, so I would really love

1274
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:51,720
to be able to.
Trace it.

1275
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,640
I'll definitely send you the
source I'll send you.

1276
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:56,439
I'll send you a screenshot and
and exactly where it's from.

1277
01:08:57,240 --> 01:08:59,960
Did you come from a family?
A religious family.

1278
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:07,040
Yeah, So Catholic, Catholic
background, my dad was really

1279
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:14,920
devout and my mom was a hippie.
So she was a devout hippie, but

1280
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:19,359
also Catholic background.
And so I'm grateful to have

1281
01:09:19,359 --> 01:09:22,479
grown up in that kind of context
because I was able to balance

1282
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:27,720
both taking that faith tradition
really seriously, but also being

1283
01:09:28,279 --> 01:09:31,840
really critical of it.
And so I, I hope that I honor

1284
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,560
both of my parents and the way
I, I try to bring those things

1285
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:34,960
together.
I.

1286
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:38,479
Bet it it sounds like you do,
because I mean, it sounds like

1287
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:41,920
you got that because I've done a
lot of reading.

1288
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:44,000
I'm actually really excited.
There's a, there's an author

1289
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:47,720
named, Oh gosh, his name is
Dennis McNally.

1290
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:53,439
And he wrote like the, the book
on the Grateful Dead, you know,

1291
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:55,160
the, the comprehensive book on
them.

1292
01:09:55,480 --> 01:10:00,120
And he just wrote a book also
about the, you know, how, the,

1293
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:03,960
how the beatniks and the, and
the bohemians became hippies and

1294
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:09,880
created that whole era.
And, and, and it's funny because

1295
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:12,360
a lot of my friends will tell
me, or people that are older

1296
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:14,760
will tell me, Hey, you're born
in the wrong generation.

1297
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:20,160
And I don't really look at it
like that because I feel like if

1298
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:23,800
I was, I feel like that was all
very raw and that was all very,

1299
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:26,400
it was all very experimental,
very new, very raw.

1300
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:28,360
And I don't know that I would
have been able to balance it,

1301
01:10:28,440 --> 01:10:30,600
you know, and I don't know that
I would have been, that I would

1302
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:34,840
have had the ability to really
come to, you know, a place where

1303
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:38,920
similar to you, where I have,
you know, religious foundation

1304
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:42,520
with a, with a lot of, with a
lot of hippie and, you know, a

1305
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:46,320
lot of, a lot of out there kind
of sentiments and, and, and

1306
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:50,040
aspects to myself.
And if I, and, and, you know, so

1307
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:52,360
I was like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
certain I was born at the right

1308
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:55,000
time.
And I'm happy that I, and I'm

1309
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:58,200
happy that I, you know, and, and
I'm happy I get to see a little

1310
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:00,560
bit of that and really just like
sharing it.

1311
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:04,320
But I think that, you know, it
would have been, it would have

1312
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:06,280
been the lowest scale.
I, I, I think about that a lot

1313
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:09,240
because it's a fun, fun world.
It's a fun culture.

1314
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:12,160
But I think that there was,
there was a little bit of, we

1315
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:15,960
need a little bit of grounding
and stability.

1316
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:20,800
And I think that the blend of,
you know, religion and, and,

1317
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,520
and, and that kind of really,
really works beautifully

1318
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:26,560
together.
And I mean, ideally I, I, the

1319
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:29,840
way that I look at things is
just that everyone has their own

1320
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:32,240
path and their own way of
expressing it.

1321
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:33,400
And that's what makes it
special.

1322
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:36,400
You know, I, I got into a
conversation with the ultra

1323
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:40,840
Orthodox Jew one time and he
can, he and he was expressing

1324
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:45,840
how, you know, in the way that
the ultra Orthodox community has

1325
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:51,320
worked since the 1800s is that
there was a rabbi or rabbi in

1326
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:53,280
the community.
And they were, and he was, and

1327
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,880
most people were common men that
were working extremely,

1328
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:59,600
extremely hard and didn't have
time to really dedicate

1329
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:02,240
themselves to learning or
praying or, or, you know, even

1330
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:03,480
being with their families at
all.

1331
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,680
And so they would look at their
Rebbe or the rabbi like an

1332
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:08,320
intermediary between them and
God.

1333
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:12,840
And, you know, and, and, and,
and so, and, and that, and that

1334
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:16,120
same kind of culture still kind
of carries over to today in

1335
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:18,440
certain communities.
And I was talking to one of

1336
01:12:18,440 --> 01:12:20,880
these guys and I said, you know,
if you would have, God forbid,

1337
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,840
drop dead tomorrow and someone
else stepped in, you know, do

1338
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:27,040
you think would God notice a
difference in the work that

1339
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:28,680
you're doing and who you and
who's doing it?

1340
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:31,280
You know, and the way that it's
being expressed and the way that

1341
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:34,080
it's being, the way that it's
being portrayed and lived and,

1342
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:37,520
and embodied.
And I was thinking, if not, then

1343
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:40,120
what makes it special?
You know, what makes it, what

1344
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:41,600
makes it, you know, how do you
have a relationship?

1345
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:44,520
How do you know, part of the
beauty of a relationship is that

1346
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:47,920
you're 2 unique individuals that
are coming together and, you

1347
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:49,440
know.
And so I think that the, I think

1348
01:12:49,440 --> 01:12:51,960
that we all should really
emphasize, you know, trying to

1349
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:54,280
kind of find their own
independent way.

1350
01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:57,240
You know, our hippie spirit, you
know, our hippie, you know, self

1351
01:12:57,240 --> 01:13:01,320
expressive way, but grounded in
those kind of values that you

1352
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:03,880
know that you're really trying
to really connect and and and be

1353
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:07,880
meaningful and be and and and
and and and and connect to a

1354
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:10,880
really, you know, beautiful
values that have kept us going

1355
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:17,080
for so many thousands of years.
Yeah, I, I really share both

1356
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:20,480
that sort of hippie connection
and interest and the desire to

1357
01:13:20,480 --> 01:13:25,840
sort of synthesize and ground
and deepen and richen and extend

1358
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:28,480
it and, and to ask that
question.

1359
01:13:28,480 --> 01:13:31,840
You know, if, if, yeah, I
dropped it tomorrow, what would

1360
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:33,040
you know?
Would it be missed?

1361
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:36,160
I've, I've heard that asked too
about your community, right.

1362
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:38,960
If, if like your church
community, if I've heard it

1363
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:41,240
asked, like if, if your church
were to disappear tomorrow,

1364
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:44,000
would anybody notice?
Which is also a striking

1365
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,720
question and one that sometimes
has disturbing answers.

1366
01:13:47,440 --> 01:13:50,440
It does, right?
It does, does, does that, does

1367
01:13:50,440 --> 01:13:54,000
that encourage you to keep on
going or is that or is that, or

1368
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,200
is that kind of what's the word
for it?

1369
01:13:56,280 --> 01:14:00,360
Is it paralyzing?
I think it's AI think it's a for

1370
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:03,080
me, it's a helpful question.
And one thing I think about

1371
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:06,080
when, when, and I don't know how
well I live this out, but this

1372
01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:12,480
is one of the questions I ask is
how can I have the most positive

1373
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:16,840
marginal impact myself?
And I do think there's a lot of

1374
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:20,240
roles that need to be filled by
people who can do them really

1375
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:22,120
well.
So I'll also ask myself, like,

1376
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:26,560
if I'm in a given role, like, am
I doing this, you know, given my

1377
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:29,800
own unique giftings and calling
and, and their sense of calling

1378
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:31,840
at least and, and how I can
bring it together.

1379
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:36,400
Am I able to fill this role, you
know, in, in ways that are

1380
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:39,080
actually adding something beyond
what, what someone else might?

1381
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:43,280
And if I'm not, then attempt to
sort of give it up.

1382
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:47,120
One way that I've again, drawing
on some of that Franciscan

1383
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:51,360
background, tried to to do that
too, is, you know, I do

1384
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:55,720
volunteer a lot of stuff.
And that's because that's a way

1385
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:58,240
to find opportunities for
marginal impact sometimes,

1386
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:01,320
right?
That if if someone's going to be

1387
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:06,040
hired to do this, if I disappear
from this role, then maybe they

1388
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:08,160
should and maybe I should make
room for somebody else to have

1389
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:10,520
that kind of opportunity.
And maybe I should go and try to

1390
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:13,080
find something weird.
And so it's that idea or

1391
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:14,520
something novel or something
different.

1392
01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:17,840
And that impulse has pushed me
in the direction that I'm in.

1393
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:20,760
And it's how I ended up doing AI
ethics for now.

1394
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:26,120
And I hope that I'm able to
have, you know, substantial

1395
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:29,800
positive marginal impact.
I think it also goes back

1396
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:32,520
everyone think about severance
or we think about social

1397
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:35,000
systems.
Social systems can be good, you

1398
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:36,760
know, contrary and I think
sometimes the sort of hippie

1399
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:39,360
vibe can be radically
individualistic.

1400
01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:42,280
And it's like, well, social
systems are good, but there's

1401
01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:45,400
definitely a possibility that,
you know, you're just another

1402
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:48,880
cog in the wheel and it's worth
stopping for a second and and

1403
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:51,720
asking ourselves, so am I just
another replaceable cog in a

1404
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:54,160
machine?
Is it treating me that way?

1405
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:56,640
Probably our group shouldn't
treat individuals that way.

1406
01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:00,160
And I've always worked to not
have individuals treated as cogs

1407
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:03,320
in a, in a social machine
whenever I've been in leadership

1408
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:06,920
roles.
And then, but then personally,

1409
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:09,560
the flip side of it, it's like,
but if I'm kind of too much of A

1410
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:12,040
cog here, then maybe someone
else can can gain from it.

1411
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:15,240
But I'm feeling like a wheel.
So maybe I should try to strike

1412
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:17,600
out in other directions.
So it's been a helpful thought

1413
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:18,640
for me.
Sounds.

1414
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:22,640
Like a great a great balance and
last question and I'll let I'll

1415
01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:28,760
let you hop off.
Do you think that in the in 50

1416
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:33,200
years or 100 years in the world
of AI, do you think that faith

1417
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:35,320
and religion are going to
thrive?

1418
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:38,920
Or you think it's going to be
harder to, or it's going to

1419
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:41,120
become closer to becoming
extinct and there's going to be

1420
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:42,840
fewer and fewer people that are
involved in it.

1421
01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:48,480
I think that it should thrive,
that it that it deserves to

1422
01:16:48,480 --> 01:16:52,040
thrive and that if people are
thriving, the all of the

1423
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:56,240
questions of faith traditions
will be deepened and extended

1424
01:16:56,240 --> 01:16:59,680
and we'll spend more of our time
and energy thinking about and

1425
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:03,840
and wrestling with those things.
Whether it will, I believe, is

1426
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:07,080
up to us, up to us as
individuals and up to the

1427
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,960
organizations, including, you
know, our faith communities,

1428
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:15,760
including secular nonprofits,
states, governments, all of

1429
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:20,240
these kinds of structures.
You know, sure, it's ultimately

1430
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:25,160
just about this.
Podcast, I think it's important

1431
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:26,480
and it's worthwhile what you're
doing.

1432
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:32,320
But so it's up to us to be
saying and pursuing the these

1433
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:36,120
kinds of things and that if
we're doing well, then I think

1434
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:38,720
our faith traditions will also
be thriving and deepening.

1435
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:41,640
And if they're withering, then
it's because we're withering.

1436
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:43,640
I see.
Beautiful.

1437
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:46,440
OK, Dan.
Dan, heck, thank you so much for

1438
01:17:46,440 --> 01:17:48,280
the time.
It really means so much and I

1439
01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:49,560
really appreciate it.
This is such an amazing

1440
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:51,000
conversation.
Thank you so much.

1441
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:54,080
Yeah, it's a pure joy.
I frame I'm always happy to talk

1442
01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:56,440
either you know, formally or
just if you want to reach out

1443
01:17:56,600 --> 01:17:59,360
and if it's reaching out to us
AI and faith too, I want to give

1444
01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:01,560
them a little shout out as the
yeah, thank you.

1445
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,840
I have faith so so please feel
free to reach out to me or AI

1446
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:08,400
and faith and I hope this is the
beginning of friendship in a

1447
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:11,160
series of conversations.
I certainly hope so.

1448
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:13,280
Actually, I was going to say I
would love to visit you.

1449
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:17,800
Last time I was last time I was
visiting a part of the world, I

1450
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:19,800
got a bunch of traffic tickets
that I haven't paid yet.

1451
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:22,520
So I have to pay those first and
then I'll be able to come visit.

1452
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:27,400
I would love, I'd love for you
to visit by all.

1453
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:29,480
Maybe this will be the motive
you need to us.

1454
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:33,760
That's right, Dan.
Thank you so much, man.

1455
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:35,320
I really appreciate it.
Take care.

1456
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:36,640
Thanks.
Feelings special.

1457
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:36,960
Take care.