#119: Dr. Zafra Lerner

0:01 Welcome to another episode of Come Together, Doctor Zafra Lerman. Welcome. I'm so happy to have you. Did you say Zafra or Zafra? Zafra, it's a tadi faireesh alif it's from the Talmud. Oh, really? Yeah. My sister is Tipora and she's Cy. She she spells in English CYP. I was supposed to be Tipora, but my father that was a pioneer, made that nobody that Ayaspora held about. OK.

0:48 It's all tough, OK. Well, I love it. I love it so. So tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell me about who you are, what you, what you know, what your, what your work that you've done and you're still going full steam ahead. You're not stopping ever. And I love that and I think it's amazing. OK. I was born in Israel when it was still the British Mandate of Palestine. So I managed to get the birth certificate that says that my nationality is Palestinian. I am really a person that can prove that I'm Palestinian.

1:30 It says my nationality is Palestinian. I grew up in Israel. My parents belong to belong to the generation that built the country. My father both of them came from very Orthodox family. My father, his friends in the US used to tell me that he would walk around in, They lived in a state rule in a small town near Odessa, and everybody was ultra Orthodox. And he would walk around and tell them that just to pray will not save the Jews, that there will be not only pogroms, but there will be something was the pogrom and only having a Jewish state can save. So one day he walked along the water with his mother. He was 17.

2:30 He's so roughed. He said goodbye and went to build the Jewish state and arrived in 1920. Took him two years to arrive and my they met there. My mother was there again from a very, very Orthodox family near Kiev, in a town near Kiev, and the Bolshevik killed their parents and their older brother. So they were left 8 orphans, 7 girl. The last one was a boy and my mother was the youngest among all the girls.

3:13 She was very young. They did not want to separate, so they moved from one place to the other till they arrived to Palestine can. I ask you, Doctor, I'm sorry, just to clarify, in case anyone doesn't know, can you tell me just briefly about the Bolsheviks, in case anyone listening does not know about them, because I didn't know about them until very recently. And so I want anyone listening to understand the context. During that period, it was the now it's Ukraine, it was Russia for many years. And there were, it was before the revolution, before the communists took over. They were a group that they were the Bolsheviks that were trying to establish the the communism and they were killing Jews for no reason, just walking and killing Jews. And not only that, they were forcing the families to bury their dead.

4:26 And this would happen to my mother's family. Was there was there excuse that it was overpopulation or there was no excuse? So since when is there an excuse to kill the Jews? Right. Few times they make an excuse but you know anti-Semitism is a a disease. I call it the disease. My grandfather used to say that that that that that that that gets passed down in people's mother's milk. He said that. He used to say that about the Ukrainians, and he said that the Ukrainians and the Polish got their anti-Semitism from their mother's milk.

5:10 It's it's very deep. It's very deep and there is, this is what it is. Look, on October seven, the terrorist that threw babies into the oven and burned them in front of the parents and then beheaded their their parents, they videotaped it and sent it back home is to show what big heroes they are and what they are doing. And it's it's the haters to the Jews goes on for many, many years. And I have my own explanation, but it's not for this podcast. No problem.

6:01 Beautiful. OK, thank you for clarifying. So you're, so both your parents came to Palestine pre, you know, British mandated Palestine. By the way, my grandmother who's Yemenite, my dad's mother also, her family came. I don't know exactly what year they came from Yemen. And there were, I think 12 or 13 of them of the kids. And they all served in the British Army for many, many years until until the state of Israel started to exist. And they all lived on King George Street. And my and two, I think 2, my uncle and my aunt are still alive today and still live there now. And they have hundreds of family members.

6:42 You have to explain King George Street. In which town? Which? City in your Salaam. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. In Jerusalem, I apologize. Yes, King George in Jerusalem and what was, you know, all of Jerusalem was just a couple of blocks at the time that that, that, that we had access to correct. Different periods and that stage, yes, we had the access to to everywhere because it was all the British Mandate of Palestine, the High Commissioner to Palestine. He lived in what is is Jerusalem, but he was responsible for all of Palestine and the till now there is the House of the High Commissioner Baytanati value and the the the first High Commissioner to Palestine was Lord Herbert Samuel that was Jewish and his grandson that was born in the house where the High Commissioner lived.

8:02 He became Lord Lord David Herbert Samuel the Right on Bull of Mount Carmel and he was my PhD advisor. And the. Weisman Institute of Science and when I did my PhD in chemistry and he always asked me why did you choose me? And I said because I looked all over for a professor and a load, so I didn't have many choices. Like was making fun of him for sure.

8:42 The field of research was what I wanted to work with him, but I always used to. But I have to admit that when he used to come to the American Chemical Society meeting in the US, his credit card did not have his name. It was the Right Honourable Vikrant of my Carmel and all the cameras. Will you introduce me to the Lord? Will you introduce me to the Lord? He was a big attraction because he was a Lord. Wow, yeah, so cool, so interesting. And getting your chemistry, getting your PhD at the time, I don't remember I was talking, I was telling my mother that you did that and she said that at the time it was very difficult for women to get their pH DS.

9:31 I don't know if that's accurate. What was that your experience? Very accurate it was how do they were not wearing women till few years ago where we was fighting to to accept more women. The same was in medical school. Today, medical school in the US, the majority are women. 20 years ago we had to fight to get women for sure. In addition, I was already married with a child because I got my career started from every point of view very young and so this was very unusual and probably still unusual till today to have a child as an undergraduate student and managed to go straight for a bachelor, master, PhD. My son attended all my 3 ceremonies. That's beautiful.

10:30 It's crazy. It's beautiful. It's such an amazing thing. Yeah. Wow. Was very nice. But you know, in my high school class I was already the only girl because I went to a reality school in in Haifa that was a very, very high level school. But we had like majors already in high school and in order to get to a major in science and math, you had like to take exams. And I come the first day to school and I realize I'm the only girl. So during all the periods where girl have the best girlfriends, my best girlfriends were boys because I didn't have girls in my class.

11:26 Did you? Were you? Were you? Did your parents put a big emphasis on education? That's why you were able to, That's why you pushed to do it. Or did you? Did you have the drive? If my parents would push me for education, I probably would be elementary without, because everything that somebody tried to push me, I had to do the opposite. So no. My father told me that what will be nice is if I'll be a kindergarten teacher and then I'll have always vacation with my children will have vacation. But now I knew I'll be a scientist when I was two years old. Wow. From the question I, I, I was asking, I remember spending hours in front of the mirror and saying I had neighbors that were identical twins.

12:21 So I thought I have one because it looked so cool to me that everybody should have one. So I was sitting in front of the mirror and trying to persuade mind twin to come and be with me. Erin said it's not a twin, you don't have a twin, it's you. I said to me, what am I doing there? If I'm here, how does that work? And I would have the questions like that from a very young age. I remember there was a wooden box and it was say, this is the voice of Jerusalem, it was the radio.

13:03 And I will get anybody to explain to me how am I in national in the beginning and then in Haifa, how am I there? How can I hear the voice of Jerusalem? So this kind of questioning all the time, I knew that I will be a scientist. And then, you know, by the age of 13, I already was in this class that was science and math, but I was the only girl. So I knew I'm going One Direction. And I went to the Technion Israel Institute of Technology for my bachelor and master.

13:46 And then I moved to Rehovert near Tel Aviv from my PhD to Weitzman Institute. That is one of the best science research science research institutes in the world, one of the best. Yeah, yeah. And I mentioned to you yesterday, we were talking on the phone that I was just there myself and it's really, really cool. And I was staying in, I stayed in Rehovote for the first time. I'd never been there before. And I fell in love with the place. I thought it was so charming and so nice and so, and it it was a great bridge between families and and city, you know, that, you know, you could do the apartments were spacious enough that they could, you know, you could put a family in it and you could feel comfortable with a nice porch and a nice and, you know, and, and everyone felt, felt, you could tell it felt very at home with all the parks, you know, just for everyone to come hang out together. I kind of wish that America had a little bit more of those type of structures that it was socially part of life to just, you know, go to a park and just talk to people that are there. You know, I mean, that's something that we that we're missing here.

14:58 Oh, from social life and people to people. We are missing much more than Israel has. When people say to me, what do you miss in Israel? I say to people, the people you know, it's just, it's a community. Yeah, yeah. Even even when I go to any event or something, anywhere in the world, immediately it is really sound together because it's a family. It's just one big family. And this you don't have in the in the US and like in like a condominium in Israel, everybody knows each other.

15:47 They they socialize with each other. I can't believe what? Their doors are unlocked, people just come in and out of each other's houses. It's crazy. I can't believe that people don't know and everything you have to call. If no, now it's it's different. You don't call anymore. You tell X to find out when you can make phone call. Yes, yes, yes. I noticed, I, I noticed that I, that when I was there, I was there for a week and then I was in Amsterdam and for a couple of days and I noticed that, that I really enjoyed that. It felt like it wasn't like that in that part of the world that people were really much more inclined to just talk to each other in the street.

16:32 You know, I went to a coffee shop in Amsterdam and I was saying, should I, I said to my friend, let's go sit outside and right outside the door, I guess the door was open a little bit and the people, the two women outside heard that we were saying that there was, there's only one table. There was, there's three chairs and they moved over and pulled over another chair and said there's only one table, but we'd love to sit with you. When's the next? When's the last time you heard someone doing that in Manhattan? You know, it was awesome. You heard someone doing that in Miami Beach or anything like that. It doesn't. It doesn't happen, you know. So I thought it was really, really wonderful. I would like to try to normalize it, but I don't know what the root of the problem is. Maybe it's social media, maybe it's, you know, all this identity politics.

17:12 I don't know. It's social media, but in many, many. Years. Oh yeah. It's now much better than when when I just came to the States, I remember the belly were outdoor places. It was unusual. I said what's wrong? I wasn't slowed down. I said why are they not outdoor places? So no, I think now we are much better than when it was than it was before the social media, I don't blame the social media for this development because it proceeded with social media.

17:52 So the social media, we can blame off it with anything because they have misinformation, but. You say they exasperated it. They made it worse. No, I don't think they have anything to do with it. OK, I don't think social media has anything to do with it. It's last day. This is how we develop. Remember this country was built with people that came from Great Britain and they had a different culture. And this was the beginning, the culture that became part of the culture in the US. It's it's different, but it's for sure developed much more to have outdoor things and people talking to each other. So it's not like in Israel.

18:55 In Israel you talk, everybody talks to everybody. Another thing that is very typical, if you go, if you are a child or an adult, if you are let's say on a tour in a bus, people think all the time. This I did not see anywhere else. Only if it's an Israeli tour all the time. You think it's a really? It's beautiful. Yes, it really. Is the boss. It really is. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's full of life. And I do you think that and I, I've thought about this, I'm curious what you think. I feel that maybe because there's always so much conflict in Israel that there's more of a sense of family and unity because they're always feeling like their back is against the wall.

19:49 Whereas in the States, we're very isolated and we don't feel the same type of threats in the same way. And so, you know, I mean, if things are too peaceful, you know, it is up for too long sometimes, you know, we intend to bicker like family. You know, like if my siblings and I are in the house for too long, we start to fight. But if someone else comes up to us, we all get together immediately, you know? Do you think it's something like that or what do you think? I don't, I don't think so. I think it's just character. I'll I'll tell you when I go to events, for example, and I am many years in the state. Sure, I'm back and forth and I lived in Switzerland in between and you're a scientist, you live all over.

20:36 But but when I go to to events, even Jewish event and there is a group of Israelis that let's say they bought in in order to talk of something automatically I'm going to sit with them. It's, it's just automatically there is an attraction to each other. And I, I, I think this is how the nature developed. Remember there were kibbutzim. What is the kibbutz commune? It's you live together.

21:17 This was the basis of building the country where the kibbutzim, it's a commune. You eat together, you do everything together. So I think it's just developed this characteristic. Yeah, it's actually fascinating. My, I was just reading my Saba. My, my grandfather wrote a book about his childhood, I think, you know, and, and I, I never read it all the way through because I wasn't really aware of the, the history and the politics and even the geography of what he was, of what his family was going through. And, and he and I and he said, he mentioned to me that he was in a kibbutz. And I thought that I didn't know that you lived in Israel. And he said, no, the kibbutz was in Germany. He said kibbutz just means, just means, you know, commune and, you know, and I think the goal was ultimately to end up there. And he said that people would end up going to Palestine or after 48, going to Israel.

22:12 But but he said that kibbutz is a kibbutz. It could be, you know, and I guess what you're saying to reinforce it, it's the DNA of the country. Is this community together? Yes. Yeah. So can you tell me about Weitzman, what it was like when you were there? What was? What was it like getting your PhD there at the time? Spend a lot of time in Weitzman. I hope to be there in the beginning of September too. It's just it's Weitzman is not a university, doesn't have undergraduate at Weitzman, there is only graduate students usually, but for a long time it was only PhD, now it's Master and PhD. And Weitzman now for the first time will open this year medical school where students will get MDPHD, so they will do research too.

23:10 It will be the first year that this medical school will be open, but Weitzman is a community first. Everybody first. If you were there, you you go in through a gate and most of the faculty lives on campus. It's like, it's like a big research kibbutz. There is theatre, there's concerts, but the research is outstanding. And it's an International School, so the language is English, and any top scientist in the world spends time at the Weitzman Institute.

23:58 I had lectured by so many Nobel laureates when I was a graduate student and when I came as a postdoc to Cornell, and I realized that many of them only met the Nobel laureates that was at Cornell. But never I knew so many Nobel laureates because they spend sabbatical advice money and they are from all over. They are from Europe, they are from everywhere, not just the US. So you have even the opportunity to meet the greatest scientist in the world, not just in in Israel.

24:44 And the atmosphere is very, very interesting. It's the collegiality. It's, it's just a wonderful, wonderful place to be in. And it does really wonderful research. Sadly now some research were suffered was of the ballistic missile from Iran that destroyed the whole building of all the life sciences. So samples for cancer reasons that were collected for years were destroyed. But they will because it's such a great at the Weitzman Institute, you see like 24 hours, the scientist goes to work when they have inspiration.

25:41 It's not a nine to five job. And this is very nice all times of the days. Therefore, when I'm in Israel, I wanted, I want always to stay at the guest house at the Weitzman Institute. And many, many of the scientists and Weitzman are involved in my project, the Malta conferences where we use science diplomacy. There's a bridge to peace in the at least. Yes. So I want to talk about that. I'm really excited about that because this until you reached out, I've never I've heard of obviously scientific conferences, I've heard of scientists that were pro peace. I've never heard of the of a scientific community gathering together for the purpose of World Peace in a formal organization.

26:33 I thought it was so unique and so beautiful and so cool. Is unique. I think it's the only one. I think it's amazing. How did you how? How did it come about? I cared for the American Chemical Society for 26 years, the Subcommittee on Scientific Freedom and Human Rights, and this was a period with a lot of human rights abuses in the Soviet Union, mainly. But China came after Tiananmen Square, But I started with the Soviet Union. I was going into the Soviet Union with a group of scientists.

27:17 We were guest of universities lecturing and after midnight I would leave the group and they were asleep and I would go in dark alleys where I met dissidents, mainly refuseniks. Refuseniks were scientists that wanted to emigrate from the Soviet Union and therefore they were fired from their job. They were not allowed to work, but then they were blamed that they are parasites and many of them were sent to hard labor in Siberia and they could not have any contact with scientists.

28:03 It was illegal to bring them scientific material or give them seminar. So I would go after midnight and meet dark alleys. I would meet several of these refuse next, and then we would go to a Dark Ethics where at 2:00 AM I would give a seminar and distribute scientific magazines that I bought with me and collected their resumes and CVS so I could work on their behalf when I came back and make sure that they can come out to freedom in my that's.

28:48 Extremely dangerous though, no? Surely it's dangerous. Why? What made you take that chance I made you? What pushed you to take that risk? The values I received going up in Israel, the way I was brought up, the values that from a very young age I was taught to help others. But it's very interesting that you say that because I have here a part of a letter that one of these people that was in hard labour in Siberia and I worked on his behalf and he came to Chicago and the first lecture he ever gave in in the US was here to the American Chemical Society Chicago section.

29:46 But I was nominated to receive the the Andrei Sakharov Award for Human Rights. And he sent a letter on my behalf. But I liked a paragraph and I want to share it because he said. I want to hear it please. He said. I often wondered what could make a person living in freedom, safety and comfort to fight for someone deprived of that and languishing on the other side of the globe. I realized that both the far away victim in the American Guardian Angel had the same ability to go against it tide.

30:36 And they did for science something which could hardly, which could hardly be rationalized in an exhausting job of fixing its very foundation, invisible on the pages of professional journals, they kept science boss humane and humane. Incredible. Excuse me. Very emotional. Think a lot how it's true because these people suffer because they stood up for what they believed in and This is why I risked their lives to do what I believed in.

31:28 And I thought he put it in beautiful words. You really did did Were you? Were you afraid at any point, or did you force yourself to not think about it? No, I was not afraid. I'm afraid of mouse, mouse or red, but usually not of any kind of people. Yeah, yeah. Wow. So that's so so that's how that's how the Malta Foundation got started. So after September 11, I suggested to the board of the American Chemical Society that my committee will start in addition concentrate on the Middle East. And they said, what do you mean?

32:17 I said I would like my subcommittee to organize a conference for scientists from all the countries of the Middle East, no exception. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, the Palestinian, Jordan, Egypt, everybody under one roof for five days with several Nobel laureates. We give them a platform to see what unites them, not what separates them. We give them a a platform to stop demonizing the unknown other.

33:01 And we give them a platform to develop collaboration that no one country alone can solve a scientific problem like the environment, the nature they don't recognize the lines the British put on the map. There is borders. So the aqueducts for water go through several countries, clean air. If you clean the air only in your country and the wind come, the countries are there, no, then it doesn't matter. You must work together.

33:44 And in the beginning everybody thought that I'm out of my mind because it was the height of the intifada. And to explain to you, please, yes, please. The Intifada was in the beginning of starting from 2000 on, and it was uprising by the Palestinian and there were a lot of suicide bombs in Israel and restaurant and buses all over. And really everybody said that I would.

34:25 People started asking me, will you have insurance? He said, well, you have. I said no, I'll find a safe place. And we had the first conference in Malta because I felt that an island will be safer as a mainland #1 and #2 There were very few flights to Malta, Rome, Frankfurt, London, and most of the people had to have connection. So it took almost a day to fly to Malta. My calculation was that it wouldn't be worthwhile for a terrorist to waste a whole day to fly and kill a lot of Muslims and free Jews.

35:20 And This is why Malta was selected for the 1st and 2nd conference. And This is why the name the Malta Conferences Foundation and the first two conferences where when Malta was not part of the European Union. So you do not need a Schengen visa, that is that. But then Malta joined the European Union and the visa became the number one problem. And I have in my book a tie a chapter titled From Mission Impossible to Mission Possible because to get a visa to all this group of countries is Mission Impossible. Just just for context, I want to just, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I just want to add just for context, on a much, much less significant scale, on a much smaller scale, I have a customer now who called me.

36:26 I sell medical equipment. He called me I believe from Syria. He was looking for an ultrasound probe for Pediatrics. And I said I'm happy to sell it to you. He says, how are you going to get it to me? And I said just FedEx or DHL, he says, sorry, we were under sanctions. I can't, we can't do it that way. We have to figure it out. So even something so stupid as an $800 ultrasound probe, you know, just shipping is so difficult. I can't even imagine getting a visa at that time from people from all over these different countries to be able to come together like that. That must. Wow. It's getting worse, not better. And as I said, the whole chapter it devoted to the visa issue. By the way, I want to throw you my board. Yes, I'm going to put the link to it too, so that everyone that everyone that hears it could buy the book. I'll put the link on the podcast so that everyone can be everyone can buy it.

37:19 And the soft, the soft cover version, right? Oh yeah. That's right, it looks. Full I didn't see the soft cover. I have to order a few, but meanwhile I give this present this one. It looks beautiful. Buy it. But I have to buy it. Really. Yes, I have to buy. What do you think they give you for free? They give me a small discount but I have to buy it. So I want to give it a present. I have to pay and I did not see but the people that have the paper back on Zooms I had. I gave webinars and everybody had it and they showed me.

37:59 It looked very nice too. I bet. Beautiful. It looks beautiful, it's very sleek, it's very elegant. So anyway, so the visas. So you so you had to get the visas. I'll give you a just example on the people from Gaza. Yes, there are scientists in Gaza. Yes, there are universities in Gaza. Yes, there are great people in Gaza. So I'll give you an example to bring them to a conference. Now they are out of Gaza because I managed to get my people from the Malta conference out long ago when Egypt was ready to let people come to Egypt only with dual citizenship.

38:49 So they don't stay in Egypt. Egypt doesn't want anybody from Gaza to stay there. I got them out and so they don't have dual citizenship. So people that don't have young children, so they meanwhile stay in Egypt illegally. But people with young children, they don't let them register the kids to school. So I have one young family. And with all the support for the people of Gaza, all the love that the world shows them, I spent for the last year sleepless nights and long days to try to get for one family with two kids. Wonderful family.

39:42 They will be a treasure for every country that will get them. Nobody gave me a visa, not Arab countries, not European countries, not the very progressive Democrats in Congress that I referred to them. This is a different story. It's so easy to scream from the river to the sea, oh, over the Palestinian. But to help is enough. And I'm still trying to find the country. I'm still working on that. Wow. So now I don't know how I'll be able, if Egypt will let them fly out from there, it will be really a problem.

40:29 But before, when they were in Gaza, Gaza has two borders, one with Egypt, one with Israel. The border with Egypt is completely closed. They cannot cross there. It was even closed when Gaza was part of Egypt from 481948 till 1967. Gaza belonged to Egypt like the West Bank belonged to Jordan. All the people that lived in the West Bank got Jordanian passport and Jordanian citizenship.

41:09 The people that lived in Gaza did not and could not even go into Egypt. So to fly through Egypt is out. The other possibility to fly from Jordan. But the Gaza doesn't have a border with Jordan. Yeah, how do they get there? Because Israel is there in. Oh, so they go through Israel to Jordan? So, so easy to get them through Israel. I They could ride on a racket because the racket they could take a ride. But I used to have to work several months with the Foreign Ministry of Israel to get them a permit to enter Israel and then drive all the way to the north, entering Gaza, crossing drive all the way to the north to the Alambi Bridge and crossing to Jordan.

42:10 The Foreign Ministry in Israel was very helpful to me. For the last 20, we start to talk. For the last 24 years, extremely happy. I always got a permit. It used to work like that. You have now a window of three hours, usually around midnight. Tell your people to come there, the car will wait for them and take them from Eris Crossing to Allenby. But then they need the. Three hour drive. Probably, yeah, three hours drive, but then they need a visa to cross to enter Jordan and suddenly Jordan many times said we don't give visa to people from Gaza to enter Jordan.

43:07 So then I had to fight with the Jordanian authorities to let them come in and this took a long time. So practically it's a full time job was just the visa for that visa for Syrian is a much more complicated. No country wants to let Syrian coming. I hope now it will change. And then there is Iran where a lot of countries don't for sure not the European Union and other countries. So it's it's describes in my book. It's such a hassle.

43:49 And the other challenge is that we have to waste the money for everybody because, you know, in the in the Middle East, in order to be successful, everybody is equal. The Palestinian always tell me it's the only conference that we don't have to hear about our poor Palestinian brothers that could not pay. Here, nobody pays. We are equal and everybody likes it. No accompanying members. Leave your spouses at home. The Americans in the beginning fought this ruling.

44:32 No, you go to a place like Malta is beautiful, They wanted to get their spouse, but as bad as chemist. You have to understand if you dilute the solution, the interaction is much slower. We need a fast reaction. We cannot dilute it with more people, no company member. Another reason is what few countries could be able to pay for their spouses and other countries could not. Then we lose the equality. So it was the equality and the dilution that we left them out. And then you have to recruit the Nobel lawyers. Nobel lawyers usually get a big on a radio. Yeah.

45:22 Not only that, they don't get many of them pay pay their own airline. Wow. Because they are devoted to the 'cause they do it for the cause. So. How many people are at these conferences? Usually a couple of dozen or a couple of 100 or less. 100. 100 limit. Beautiful. Because even that 80 is the ideal. Because 80, then everybody manages to know each other and it's already a little bit harder, but there are more, more people that want to participate and it's how to to select. So it's 100 and we have already 700 people in our network. 17 Nobel laureates already participated. Many of them participated 23456 times or more because they believe in the cause.

46:30 The Malta Conferences Foundation is the only platform in the world that brings together all the participants from all the Middle East, and they're the same move. And there was efforts to imitate us. Even Elie Wiesel tried, but after three conferences and he was loaded with money to do it. But after three conferences he did not succeed and he did not get all the countries and it stopped. But Malta is going on.

47:13 The first one was in 2003. Can I ask, and I guess, I guess it's almost human nature that in a time of conflict, I, I would imagine, especially during the intifada that a lot of people wouldn't be interested in going to try and, you know, reach out to Palestinians and Syrians and Iranians. And what I mean, what first of all, what made you in particular look for that at that point in time? And, and was that, and what was the pushback when you were trying to do that at that point in time? Because I think the context is really important. The point in time is. Super important. Explain to you something. We always say science diplomacy can succeed where other kind of diplomacies cannot.

48:02 Science diplomacy doesn't see religion, doesn't see borders, doesn't see language, doesn't see culture. It's science, and all the scientists share the same thing. I always like to say that as scientists from Bethlehem, PA. And I'm very happy that they have a Bethlehem there so I can use it is from Bethlehem, PA and the scientists from the real Bethlehem on the West Bank can communicate to each other without knowing each other language.

48:43 And This is why science is different. And I did not have any problem to persuade the scientists to come. There was nobody that was afraid to do it. And you know, it's, it's a special conference and, but the most important thing is that we keep everything confidential till after the conference. People used to tell me, oh, I looked at your website and he doesn't have the dates of the upcoming conference.

49:28 It has the dates of the conference. That was I said, you're right. You will see the dates of the conference that is coming up now only after. The concert, so you don't want it to be open like that. Listen, there are people that when we were in Morocco, we had demonstration of, there is a small group of Palestinian in Morocco, very militant and there, there were no detectors entering the metal detectors entering the hotel.

50:08 And suddenly two days later they heard about that and the demonstration came and immediately the the metal detector appeared in the front of the hotel. So we try not to make it public till after the conference. It's really, really beautiful. It's really, really amazing. So what about your and after aside from Malta, of course, which is a full time job, obviously, the way that you're describing it, I can't even imagine, you know, I get.

50:49 The money is a full time job because every penny we raise goes to the conference, so there is no money to pay a fundraiser to. Raise the money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What what about what about chemistry? Have you, did you, do you continue to study chemistry or do you, what's, what do you do with? Chemistry continues to be involved in education chemistry. I did research on secondary isotope effect and I'm not going to explain it. No problem. And it will take too long, but then I believe that science education is the human rights that belong to all. And Prince Hassa and His Royal Highness Prince Hassan of Jordan.

51:37 King Hussein Bader always quotes me when he gives the talk. Really I. Know very well because he's participants in Malta. So I believe it's a human right. And you know the half percent of the population that will become scientists. It doesn't matter how you teach because they will become scientists with the worst teachers in the world. But the rest of them have to understand science in order to live in our society this day. And I always say if we will leave them behind, we will form A2 class society separated not by royalty but by knowledge of science and technology. So the the point is to find a way to attract everybody to take science.

52:35 And I developed a way to teach science through art, music, dance, drama. Rap. Really. Animation. There is a huge chapter in the book about that in examples and it became very popular. And in order to show that it's real science, I had a NSF National Science Foundation grant together with Princeton University that we developed the same class with my methods. We called it from ozone to oil spill, chemistry, the environment, the new for their non science majors. And every year my class that was mainly minorities flew to Princeton for a joint symposium.

53:29 And all the media will cover it all the time. And they used to call it the meeting of two cultures and it was 2 cultures. It was very, very interesting. Then it was adopted all over the world in different places. I, by myself adopted the town of Soweto. I received the first international award in the New Democratic South Africa. It was international award. So while I was there, I adopted this town of Soweto. It's the only town that in one straight to Nobel laureate live Bishop Tudu and Mandela. So I adopted their school district and I lectured there and I worked with the teachers to teach there. The same way I was in Kenya, in many universities and I was in a lot of countries, few for human rights, few for other reasons. And it became very, very successful, especially with underprivileged students.

54:47 I worked with homeless kids that I taught them through Dance at Night in Dance Studio. I was the head of the science institute so I could bring my faculty and we all were teaching them through Dance at Night. There's a picture where I sit on the floor and they are all around me and everybody has a periodic table on the floor. And many of them went to college and two continued for a PhD in biochemistry. I taught prisoners like that and they became very successful and it became a very successful way to teach people that otherwise would not come close to that. And there are a lot of examples for that in my book. For if there are teachers in your audience, I don't know who's your audience, they would be very interested in that. And we have a YouTube, as a matter of fact, with a lot of the videos that show examples.

55:55 How theatre student hope to play like Romeo and Juliet on love. So between sodium and chlorine to foam table salt. And there are the kids dancing the periodic table and the state of matters and other dancers. Depletion of the ozone layer so that we have all that on YouTube. Can we have to check that out? I'm going to also, by the way, I'm going to find that link and I'll post it also with the episode. So I'll have the link to the book and the YouTube video for for YouTube videos for people to see. Do you when, when you go to these different countries, do you reach out to them or they find you or how does that work? I'm invited.

56:44 You're invited. How do they find you? How do they come across? How do they, I guess just from your conference and? How did they find me? Yeah, I mean, if I if I lived in Kenya, I wouldn't know how to find. I wouldn't know how to find Doctor Safa Lerman, you know, necessarily with that, you know, too easily, you know, I mean, unless I I wouldn't even know how it. Happened people publish and there are even today on the every day on the e-mail there is some group called academia that they want me to become a member. But every day they give me the list of the people that all quote my papers or just read my papers and describe it.

57:26 And can't believe that every day there are people that are trying to adopt this method and they tell me that they they are reading my papers so. That's amazing. That's amazing. Did you, I read online and I was, I did a quick Google before you and I were talking before you and I spoke yesterday and I saw online that you prevented executions before. Can you tell me a little bit about that? It's part of working on human rights, no? I, I would imagine, but I, I would also imagine that as a chemist, I wouldn't think that that's my job as a chemist to, to do that.

58:07 I might say that it's not my job, it's my conviction. Yes. Can you tell me some stories about that? I just read to you about one person that I saved what he wrote there. But yes, when it was in Libya, when they decided that the doctor and five nurses spread aids in the hospital while they treated the patients and they gave them death penalties. And I mobilized like crazy a lot of the human rights committees around the world and, and wrote and fought and did everything I could in my in my power and in all my connections and, and they changed it and they let them. By the way, the doctor was a Palestinian. So this shows you how the world is crazy. Here I am an Israeli, but I am fighting and spending my time and life and money to save a Palestinian Dr. or to get the Palestinian from Gaza that are

59:38 from the Malta conference out of Gaza. So it was not any Palestinian living in the US, it was not the squad that is in the Congress here, the led by Rashida Talib and AOC and all this form. Yes, and I'm none of them walked and taking people out to safety. So it's an Israeli that they did and this shows you how crazy it is the world.

1:00:22 It also shows you how cheap talk is. It shows you how easy it is to talk and how much harder it is to do anything. But the problem is that the world is very impressed with talkers and it's it always says a squeaking will gets attention. That the will that does it's job and does very well never gets attention. That's right. But what is going on? You know, And this tells you that humanity is above all the hatreds and the division that are being forced on us.

1:01:02 Yeah, and you think it's being forced or not? I think so too, but. It's being forced. So it's being forced. If you have a New York Time magazine, New York Time newspaper that shows a picture of a young child, skinny like hell, but doesn't show his brother that is in the same picture, four years old, very well. Fed doesn't cut that out, shows that. And look what Israel is doing. And then has to apologize because the child has a genetic disease that causes him to look like that.

1:01:45 So then they apologize, but they don't show you the picture of the hostage that just the the Hamas release of the hostage that is all skin and bones that cannot even move. You did not see this picture on the New York Times. So if you believe in the New York Times, you don't get the true information. It's a very selective information, very and for sure social media is very selective.

1:02:25 But this is what's great about science, that the science and the scientists believe in the truth and don't use the science in for propaganda or different political reasons. We hope that not always people listen to scientists. Look what's happening now that suddenly all the research on vaccines that should save millions of people was cut because somebody that is not a scientist and has some ideas not based on science decided that this research is not important.

1:03:12 Well, I, yeah, I would also, I mean, I think that in today, in particular in 2025, I think that a lot of faith and a lot of institutions, especially when you hear stories like The New York Times or you hear stories about like Covic or you hear story, you know, you hear stories about different things that that happened that are clearly corrupt, that people don't know what to believe or not anymore. And everything just gets thrown out, you know, and that, and right now there's just very little faith, I think that people have in in leaders and institutions. And they say, you know, forget scientists, forget doctors, forget anything, you know, like they're all lying to us anyway. Why should we believe them? Forget journalists, they're all lying. Forget the newspaper, they're all lying. But then you don't know what's, you don't know where to go. You don't know what's real.

1:03:57 You don't know what's not. And it's I think that that's the root of a lot of the issue. I don't think it's just that it's pure deceit or pure deception. I think that it's a manifestation of people feeling let down. I don't know if this is the reason or what is the reason, but I think that education is suffering for many, many years. And what a very educated person can look and decide if it's true or not, if it's logical or not, because he or she can use their critical thinking.

1:04:43 If you don't teach all that, you don't teach logic, you don't teach critical thinking, you down the education. No, it's at the bottom, makes its way up. It goes all the way up and you believe in what somebody persuaded you to believe. Yeah. And actually, I think that's why I think in a big cultural problem in the States is that teachers that if you tell someone you're a teacher, you almost look down on, you know, so you tell someone you're a teacher, they're like, oh, come on. Like, you know, you're not a lawyer, You're not, you're not an investment banker, you know, like, what are you even doing with yourself? You know, And I think that's, that's heartbreaking because the teachers are responsible for, for the future of critical thinking. This was people don't understand that the teacher is responsible for your children.

1:05:32 Yeah. They will dumb down your children. They will never achieve anything. Yes. Like when I lived in Switzerland for a while, I did research at the Swiss Polytechnic and the teachers were the number one in the social status because everybody understood that they are responsible for your children. It's interesting when you look for a care daycare to put your baby in, you check for the best daycare, the best person that is there to take care of your child.

1:06:14 But once the child goes into school. Forget about. It. I don't know what it is, but I I think, but I I believe that maybe I. Was never respected. In the US it's your bank account is the number one and education is where. In Europe education is the number one. In Switzerland you can be a multi billionaire. If you don't have education, you will never reach the high society. Because So what? Yeah. I was going to ask what cultures, what other cultures have you experienced or countries?

1:06:54 Do they, do they value teachers or do they, or is that something that's considered prestigious? Do you what have you? Have you visited places like that? Some European countries, even in Israel, is the problem used to be valuable. They're trying to change it. And even the Weitzman Institute has a lot of program for teachers to try to give them the the tools they need to teach. But somehow people forget that the teacher is probably one of the most important profession we have because they are responsible for the brain of your child.

1:07:41 Yeah, I think that and, and perhaps one of the reasons is because, and I've noticed, I, I noticed this about the Western culture in general. It's very focused on today and very, it has very short memory and does not look very far into the future. All you worry about is right now, you know, You don't think about the past. You don't think. About the future many tests children don't need so many tests they need to. Learn how. To be tested all the time. Yes. This is why I develop the way I develop. I talk to my students. I want you to have to waste your time and sit down and write this. Yes, yes, yes.

1:08:21 Yes, I know you show me your knowledge anywhere you want. You don't have to wait on this test. The number of tests are unbelievable and the teacher has to teach to the test because if the student don't do well on the test, the teacher is not good. So the teacher teaches to the test and not knowledge and this is crazy. Crazy. I'm AI teach high school. I teach high school English part time and one and one thing that I have to catch myself doing is a student. If I, if I have an assignment and a student will ask me to do something a certain way, for some reason, my immediate response is usually to try to say no.

1:09:07 And I have to stop and think, why am I saying no? Is the kid trying to express the knowledge that he knows in his own way? And I'm saying no because it's not what I wanted? Or is the kid just trying to be lazy and get out of doing the assignment? You know, and, but I think that you need to be on your toes. And I think that, you know, I think that a lot of teachers, and again, also, if it's not prestigious, who's going to want to do it? You know, you have to be almost, you have to practically be a martyr to be a teacher for a full time. You know, and you have to be willing to, to give up on, on a comfortable salary. You have to be willing to give up on social status. You have to be willing to, to accept the fact that people are going to pretty much look down on you. Who wants that? So you're not going to get the cream of the crop being teachers anyway.

1:09:50 At this point, with the way that this is, that society works, it's I don't know what to do. 100% but but this problem is being discussed already for so many years and nothing is being done. Nothing is being done. Do you have any ideas? Oh, I have a lot of ideas. But you know, there was a period that Chicago had a wonderful CEO for the school, Paul Weathers. And really Chicago made a huge jump. And I had millions of dollars in grants to build STEM academies in the worst high school that was high schools that had drugs and gangs and the students did nothing. And we came with this academies and suddenly it became a high school of choice for students.

1:10:51 And it changed everything. And and I had money to have workshops for the teachers to show them how to teach with my methods of teaching. It did Miracle We ran works so for the parents, but especially parents. Amazing. That don't know anything in science, so we show them different things that they can help their children. So when you do all that. I'm writing that down to implement by the way, I want to do that. We made a huge change, but then came in your CEO. Forget about it.

1:11:37 Forget about it. And this is the problem. This is the problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it. Did miracles, miracles. There was a high school that the number of students was so small, only few hundreds, because it has such a big reputation. This is where we built our Academy and you can't believe it, a school that suddenly you had to select the students to come in. Yeah, wow, Wow. And then you know what happens? It gets built up and then someone new comes in or it gets all this, you know, you get a whole new bunch of staff that at the top and then they change it all up. This is the problem with education. Wow, wow.

1:12:22 You give me a lot to think about especially. Yeah, because I care very much about I I really do. And you know, I always say if I was able to make if I was able to really make a living and I could support my family teaching, I would teach 20 hours a day. You know, I mean, I really would. I I love it. I think it's one of the most important things in the entire world. And you know, I, I and I just tried and I and I and I love every minute that I have an opportunity to really pursue it. But it's, you know, it's I really, it's very important to me and it breaks my heart that it's not, it's not more heavily emphasized. It really does. Yeah. Yeah. So how long did it take you to write your memoir?

1:13:03 Oh it took too long because my husband got cancer when I was writing it and it slows things down at the end. The book is dedicated to him and I added one chapter about him because he used to call himself AP Accompanying person because he used to make fun. This goes to what you mother told you when you talk to her about being a woman, a scientist. He used to come with me to he's economist, but was he passed away from the cancer.

1:13:46 But he used to come with me and to conferences all over the world and people would show them him the reaction and he would say I'm not the chemist, she's the chemist, not matter. They must continue to talk to him. It used to be hilarious and don't understand the word. She is the chemist. Dr. Yeah, it's so funny. Chapter titled The accompanying member. That's really beautiful. That's really beautiful. But yeah, wow, wow, wow, wow. Amazing, amazing.

1:14:30 It's really incredible. So when's the Oh yes, I can't even ask you when the next one is. I don't want to talk about the next one, but what's, what gives you some hope for the future? What gives you some? You know, I love that question and I've heard a lot of times, I hear it asked a lot and I don't think it's, I don't think it's really authentically asked enough. What do you like? What do you really think that What are you hopeful about? I'm hopeful that more people with all these podcasts in the book will understand that everybody can contribute to make the planet a better place. It's not beyond every person. If I could do it, everybody could do it, and my book is practically calling for action.

1:15:25 I used to tell my students always before you go to sleep, think if you did something good for somebody else and if you did something good for somebody else, you had a very good day. And I always got my students involved with me in things that I could involve them, like arms control and disarmament, the human rights, because I wanted them to be part of all these issues. And I've my hope is, you know, Nature magazine is the best thing.

1:16:09 They are the best scientific magazine in the world. It's in England and they did a review on my book, but then they had they published a few a paragraph from articles that they want to emphasize. And in the middle of this newsletter, they have Quote of the Day. So one day, the quote of the day was for my book. And they picked up the quote that I said, you know, in order to have an atom bomb, you need to have enough critical mass of uranium to start the chain reaction.

1:16:57 So I used this sentence and I wrote in my book that my hope is to have a critical math of scientists that will start a chain reaction for peace, and they pick this up as the quarter of the day and then advertise my book after that. It was a free, wonderful advertisement. And so I still hope that I will still see many people that decide to join to make the world a better place. I hope so too. Well, I, I, I, I know that I'm going to do after, especially after talking to you, I'm going to do my best to try to continue pushing your book and continue pushing these ideas because I think that it's such a wonderful and, and so unique. I don't think I've ever, I've never heard of anything like your story.

1:17:53 And I think that it's, it's so magnificent And, and just here, you know, hearing you talk reminds me of just a different world that I hope that that I hope reminds people of what the world could be like, you know, of what the world could be, you know, like what tomorrow could be. And I think that it's really, really special. I really, really appreciate everything that you've done. And I I really appreciate your time. Thank you for so much for connecting. I really, you know, I hope to be in touch. And when you're in Florida next, please let me know. And we're gonna and and and this and this is you. You're living and have lived and are continuing to live a truly beautiful and very, very special life.

1:18:35 And it really, it's it's amazing able to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you very much. This is such a pleasure. We're going to be in touch. Take Care now. Bye bye, Doctor. Bye.