#120: Scott Urbach / CIA / Corporate Security/ Thriller Writer

0:01 Welcome to another episode of Come Together and we're live. We're back. Scott Erbach, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you so much for joining tonight. Thank you very much. I'm I'm really excited about being here. Yeah, you know, I was thinking actually on my on my way home. I just started school last week and I was happy that, you know, I caught you in one of your first few podcasts after the book came out, because I feel like doing a podcast is like dating, you know, where you know, you get you, you talk about yourself a lot, you tell some great stories. And then after the 10th time or 20th time or 30th time of repeating it, you know, you get a little tired, a little burnt out.

0:47 So I hope that hope that all this stuff that you talk about is going to be fresh and exciting and, and I'm really excited to talk with you today. Yeah, thanks. Me too. So you want to tell me just a little bit about your background and then we're probably going to look at everything through the lens of your new found writing career. But do you want to give me a little bit of background about yourself and we can we can kind of work away from there? Yeah, sure. So you've already kind of alluded to some of it. My I've, I've recently embarked on a what I'm hoping to be a career as a as a thriller author. I've I've had my debut novel released in March of this past year. It's ACIA thriller and which is what I know my background is. I was a former CIA officer many years ago and over the last my career spanned 40 some years.

1:49 I left the agency after a little while and then it's been in a global security executive for a number of international companies ever since. And so it's been a, it's been a long road, an interesting one, and which has led me to to the writing career now. Yeah, yeah, It's really exciting. My, my famous. I had a professor that got me into writing with the first class that I went to. And the thing that he said was every great writer has at least 50 to 100 things they love more than writing because otherwise you have nothing good to write about, you know, and, and at life, you're going to, in order to, if you want to really be a great writer, in order to really get there, you have to be accumulating experiences to be able to have something to write about.

2:34 Let your imagination work, let history work, let your experiences happen. And then try, and then you find a way to capture it and put it all into words. So I, I think that you're, that it sounds like the time is ripe for, you know, for a writing career based on that kind of background. Well, yeah. And I think he, I think he was spot on with all of those comments. Obviously, they also say, you know, write what you know and write what you love and write what you like to read. I'm a voracious reader, so I read across multiple genres, But I, I, I know I'd be a lousy romance writer. I, I think I'm much, I'm much better at writing, you know, mystery, thriller, action, adventure type books. Have you always have you always loved reading and you ever have you ever have you always had a desire to write? I've, I've always loved reading and I'm going to date myself here, but you know, I, I go all the way back to the Louis Lamour western novels, you know, back in the 60s and 70s and you know, James Harriet and then the All things bright and beautiful books that he wrote.

3:41 He was an, an English author and you know, then all all the way up. You know, of course, I, as you would expect with my background, I was drawn to Ian Fleming then and the James Bond series. Now those predated me. Those are from the 50s, but I've read, I've read all of those all the way up to the current day. You know, there's a number of modern authors that I, I follow, you know, religiously every time a book comes out, I'm, I'm, I'm the type of reader that every author dreams about. You get me hooked on a series. I'll read through the entire thing. So it's, I think in 2023 I gave myself a goal of reading 100 books on my Kindle and I think I topped out at 120 or so.

4:26 That was, that was everything from the classics, you know, Old Man in the Sea or Dracula, you know, Gone with the Wind and then all the way up to, you know, modern genre specific action adventure type type novel. So, so I've always been, you know, very keen on reading and writing. You know, I like all of us. You mentioned being in school. I took creative writing classes and things like that, you know, in school, but really never had the time to sit down and actually, you know, put pen to paper and, and really write a book.

5:07 And then recently in in 2024, I decided it was time to finally do that. And that's what's led me to to it today. OK, awesome. That's a, that's a spectacular segue. And it's really, and it's, it's funny because I have a really, I personally have a very difficult time finding new books. I, I, I have adept, I, I judge books based on their cover. You know, I'm one of those people. And I try and I, and it drives me crazy to say because I like to be open minded, but I really, really need to be prompted to really push my way into, into a new book.

5:48 But one thing that I did notice that I think is really interesting. Maybe you've noticed just from what you've read that there are authors that can really just like hump out writing whole books. Like like it's, I mean it's a method, you know, and like they can, they can write 10/15/20 books. And, you know, you, whether you have the famous or the famous Alex Ryder series or Colleen Hoover, which my wife and my sister-in-law are, you know, love reading like they have a formula and a process and they just keep on turning out books. Do you, did you pick up on any kind of pattern or any kind of, you know, while you're reading any kind of formal structure or pattern that these kind of writers had?

6:32 Well, yeah, I mean, in my genre and others, you really want to if you're going to have any type of commercial success and, and understand there are two paths to publishing nowadays. Back in the day there was one pass. It's called trad publishing or traditional publishing where you would write your manuscript, you would shop it to an agent or, you know, hundreds of agents and receive hundreds of rejections before somebody finally picked you up. Who would then take it and sell it to what are now, I think the, they're called the big 5 publishing houses who would then, you know, mess with it and edit it and do all kinds of things for a year or more before it finally gets published.

7:12 Then, you know, in the, you know, early 2000s, you know, 2015, maybe 10/15/20 years ago with the advent of Amazon, the indie publishing world really went from what was once looked down upon. It was called vanity press. And you would pay a lot of money and you know, a book would be printed for you and have thousands of copies stuck in your garage somewhere. Now, now it's not like that anymore. The, the indie author indie author world is a vibrant community of really talented writers who are writing their books, publishing their books themselves, marketing the books themselves and, and having great success. Honestly, I would say 90 at this point, 95% of the books I read are from indie authors that I can as, as you said, that I can search online to find a book that I'm interested in. And that, and that process actually is what led me to, to actually writing the book.

8:15 Because as I mentioned when I went on that, you know, goal of reading 100 books, I'd also about that same time gotten into scuba diving. It was something I've always wanted to do. So, you know, so I started querying Amazon, you know, about, you know, scuba diving related fiction novels and scuba diving adventure stories, which led me into this entire sub genre that I didn't even know existed. There's actually a group, and I've become friendly with some of the authors in it called the Tropical Authors group that have, there's about 50 of these guys that have men and women that have their books that are all kind of themed around, you know, action and adventure and sea stories and scuba diving. And so I think the first one I came across was Sharon Ward and her Finn Fleming stories, which led me to a tremendous guy, Nicholas Harvey and his AJ Bailey dive mystery stories. And then there's some cross pollination between these various authors where 1 character from one book will show up in another book.

9:27 That led me down to other authors in reading their books, ultimately to A to a guy by name of Wayne Stennett, who's kind of the godfather, the grandfather of this tropical authors group. And he's got to your point, I think he has he just published his 30 30th book in in one specific. It's called the Jesse McDermott series. He, you know, he has thirty of those now. He's been doing it for many years. He probably puts out several a year. But then he also has some non fiction books, one of which was called, it was called Blue collar to no caller.

10:09 And you know, his journey to becoming a writer. He's a former Marine boat captain, a truck driver. And he explained how, you know, one day he decided to sit down and start writing stories and now it's his full time job. And that's something that resonated with me and said, you know, that's something that I think I can do. And it goes back to my my family had and my kids have been after me for literally decades to to write a book now. They they were envisioning me writing a memoir of some sort of my my times, my time in the agency, which I was never going to do, but but this gave me because. It was it was it was impractical or because it.

10:51 Was, well, because, you know, I wasn't going to talk. You know what? What I did in the agency was exciting and important and fun work, but it's not something that, you know, that I would write a memoir about. That's just not who I am. But I could write a novel about what I did, loosely based on me and my career, very loosely based on me and my career. And so that's what I decided to do. And I didn't tell anyone I was doing it. And and again, to your point about the old saying you can't judge a book by its cover, well, you really have to nowadays. And one of the first things they drill into you if you listen to other podcasts about writing or if you, you know, read articles about it is, you know, two things you immediately need to have.

11:40 You have to have a a good title that fits your genre and a good professionally made cover that also fits your genre. That because, you know, as people are are going through Amazon or wherever they're looking for a book, even if they're at a bookstore, you know, you got about a second and a half to grab their attention for for it to really, really scream. This is their genre. So, you know, my buckets title is admit nothing. The cover is the typical, you know, thriller genre cover, a man, you know, running towards trouble, gun in his hand, bright colors, etcetera, etcetera. So you know, right away it's a thriller novel. No one's going to, you know, no one's going to look at it and assume it's a romance or a fantasy or something like that. Now, if you, if you're writing a romance and a fantasy, you want your, you want everything to look different, you know, to have the, the Dragons or the the flames or the flowers or whatever the case may be on your book. So, so that's essentially.

12:47 Marketing, right? Well, that's the, it's the very first step of marketing, right? It's it's. Psychological marketing because you're trying to capture someone's eyes and all their attention and and stand out at the same time, you know? 100%. Hundreds of other or dozens of others in the same in the. Same, right? So. So back to your question of is there a formula? I believe, and again, I'm very early on this journey, but the formula should be right. You know, do everything right first. And, and obviously the very first thing you have to do is write a good book, right? You can't, you know, no matter how good your cover is and your title is, if you know, after the first couple pages, people think it's garbage and it clearly is. And then you're not going to generate any, any following. But you know, you write a good book. You.

13:39 I'm sorry real quickly just to just to ask to elaborate because I want you to elaborate on this direction where you're heading down, if you don't mind. But you know, people have a real great concept a lot of times. What makes a good movie? Do you have a concept in yourself? What makes a good book or what are you looking for when you're when you're picking up a book? And so again, yeah, in my genre, yeah, you need to have a compelling, A compelling story. But more importantly, in my, in my belief, A compelling characters, you know, your, your protagonist has to be, you know, believable. I strongly believe the protagonist has to be flawed. You know, not if, if your protagonist was Superman and did everything absolutely right every time, never had conflict, never had stress in his or her life. That's just not believable.

14:28 So you, you want a compelling story with good, solid characters that are relatable, that have flaws of some sort in my genre, you need to have some action, some adventure, some plot twist that, that you know at the end or midway through. So, so there's, there's those type of steps that you want to have and, and you know it. If you if you know what you like to read you you understand what what good writing is in that genre and so. You recognize the patterns there? Yeah, the patterns. That are familiar. There are certain patterns and you don't want it. It's not like you know it's completely wrote and you and there's no creativity in it because there absolutely is within certain constructs.

15:20 You can do certain things with your story and you know, as you're writing through, I like to leave a little mini cliffhanger or drama at the end of every chapter because you want them to turn the page. It could be two in the morning and you you end a chapter with a little zinger. It's like, oh man, I I really need to read the next page to see what happens next. And then then you do all of that in your first book. And then ideally, if you're writing, you know, you could, you could make a living at this. I I understand with, with a series of standalone books, but I think it's it for me, it's going to be a more interesting journey to have a continuing series of the same characters, you know, put in different situations that are somewhat related. Often that could lead to a spinoff series with if one character really takes off and gets a lot of appreciation by your fan base.

16:22 So in the old saying is nothing sells your first book better than writing your second book. So you have a good, a good, solid first book in the series, followed by a, you know, a good second book, then to the third and then to a fourth. And so my goal right now and, and I'm just, I'm hoping to release book 2 in the next couple of months. So my goal is to, you know, ideally write 2 books a year. It might be nice to squeeze a third one in there. But if I could write 2 books a year, market them properly, start, you know, slowly building up a readership, I'd be very, I'd be very happy with that. And you know, where I was going with earlier about how I decided to, to write this and to the point I was getting to on the cover and the title, I told no one in my family I was doing it. It was a little secret project of mine that I was doing, you know, upstairs in, in my study and, and writing the book. And then the way I kind of willed it, manifested it into existence is rather than just print out on computer paper the manuscript and hand it to my family. I actually, you know, had it properly formatted, sent it off to I think Barnes and Noble Press had them with. And I'd hired a cover artist and all that. Had it professionally printed up

17:54 like a book with the cover looked like, looked like you'd picked it up off the shelves and Barnes and Noble. And, and that's what I, you know, surprised the family with as my first draft. And then they became my beta readers and my, you know, my first set of reviews to give me feedback as I then. And that manuscript at that time had was about 60,000 word, yeah, 60,000 words. And by the time I incorporated all my changes and and feature edits, it landed about 80,000 words when I finally published it. Wow, you added. I know a lot of for a lot of writers their their problem is actually cutting away words, not having to add more. Yeah, and exactly. And and, you know, there's probably a lot of puts and takes there because I probably, you know, I started with, like I said, if I was, you know, editing at 60,000 words, I probably delete, deleted 20,000 words and then wrote 40,000 back, you know, so it was a lot, it was a lot of back and forth as I was, you know, editing and taking out things that just didn't make sense, putting in new things. It eventually got to the point where I just had to stop because I would find myself waking up in the middle of the night thinking, oh, you know what?

19:05 I could have, I could have said that differently on that one sentence, then gone and changed that sentence, which then led me into rewriting that entire chapter. You know, So eventually I had to say, OK, it's good, it's ready to go and let's put it out there in the world and see what, you know, what everyone else thinks. Yeah, I don't think as an author or as an artist anyone ever really feels 100% ready. But I think at a certain point everyone understands that it's got to go out there, you know, whether you like it or not. But what I think is also very interesting about what you're describing is, you know, it's actually funny because I'm very into the entertainment industry as a whole.

19:50 You can hear me. OK, so I'm sorry about that. What I was saying was I'm a huge fan of the entertainment industry as a whole and and one of the thing and the business behind it as well. You know, and for studios, it's always easier to create a sequel than it is an original because and and sequels almost inevitably make more money than the originals do. But the sequels are almost also inevitably get a worse reception with the audience. Right. And because, and by the way, I really think, you know, just going back to what you're talking about, about your method of writing and your characters and everything like that, you know, spin offs are not bad, are actually I think awesome. I think they're phenomenal.

20:38 I I think that a good series is phenomenal. And I think that one of the hardest things to do is convince other people of an original story that they never heard of before. And so I would imagine that the hardest book to write is probably the first because you have to convince the audience of the book's good enough. And then the challenge is keeping up the quality with that first one so that it doesn't let your audience down and that you don't kind of cheapen the brand of the character. I mean, you have that kind of story. You know, you have that kind of story that happens with Marvel where Disney talks about all the time how how their mistake recently was making Marvel feel like homework. Like you had to like keep up with all this stuff and it was exhausting, you know, fatigue and new materials coming out all the time. And how do you keep track of the TV shows or the movies or the straight to streaming?

21:26 You know, at a certain point, people don't want to do homework. They just want, you know, they just want to be able to enjoy. And I think that what's fun about this little world that you're playing with is that you can kind of gauge the audience response if you can. I don't know if there's a way you can as a writer and you can tell me whether that's your you know, what, what your experience is with that. But you know, and then kind of jump on a character or do you feel yourself like, hey, I'm in a real flow with particular characters And I think that these characters are rich for more stories and more potential. Well, again, you know, being early at it. But first of all, let me step back. Your your Marvel analogy is outstanding because I have this ongoing thing with my wife. She'll want to watch a Marvel movie. And I said, look, I'll watch a single superhero movie where there's one superhero and that's it preferably the origin story that superhero.

22:20 But when there's 37 different Marvel characters and, or, or DC characters, whatever, whichever 1 is which. And you know, there's there's this talking raccoon guy over here and there's, you know, Thor over here doing something else and Superman and Batman and everyone mixed together. That's, you know, that is homework for me and I can't go down that route. So, but to your point on, you know, your, your character journey, I think you know that there's, there's the ability and as evident by a lot of these authors I read that have, you know, 1520 thirty books in their series. There's plenty of room for for the characters to continue with various types of, of adventures or, or incidents that they get into and have to get their way out of. And there's a lot of times there's a common thread. I really enjoy the the little back story, common threads that weave through a series where, you know, somebody might be talking about a character, you know, a a minor character of a family member of something in book 1 and then is referred back to in book 3.

23:30 And then you see in book 5, you know, the the daughter's now getting married or something like that. And I'm so I really like those type of of continuity plays through. And I like it when when there's crossover with with another, let's say. And Nick Harvey's a great example. His AJ Bailey series start, you know, started with it's all focused around this woman who's a dive instructor in the Cayman Islands. And then that round book 3 or 4 or something like that, a plot line circled around a teenage runaway from Norway who was in the Cayman Islands who ended up in in a sex trafficking situation.

24:16 You know, she ends up, you know, surviving it. And then in the next story, she she's a bigger character. And then he spun her off. It's called the Norris Summer series. He spun her off into her own series and then but then refers back as AJ shows up in her in her books. And so I, I like that type of interplay as in, and I think for, for as an author that excites me about being able to, to expand that world, much like, I guess a fantasy author, you know, gets likes and enjoys, you know, world building some new world.

24:59 I'm not world building, but I'm world building around, you know, the characters in, in my book who, you know, quite frankly, I mentioned, you know, the family pushing me to do this. Almost everyone in my family is a character in the book, some of some of them in some of them in true name and, and using their background as, as plot points. And so it's been, you know, it's a kick for them to, to do it. It's just littered with Easter eggs. That was for them to, to find. You know, the, there's a whole storyline. The protagonist talks about his, his wife and their first date and where they got married and how they first met and the, you know, the 1st and all of that is absolutely true between, you know, because my wife was CIA also.

25:51 So she and I met on the 7th floor of CIA headquarters out in front of the director suite. And so I tell that story in the book from the viewpoint of the protagonist. But everything he talks about there really happened in real life. And, you know, so it's something for the, the kids to see and, you know, quite frankly laugh about now. But then I put them, I put them in, you know, their characters in the book now. Now what they have to do is stay on my good side. Otherwise I'll kill them off in the book. But but so so far they. You sound like David Chase, the author of The Sopranos. The. Right creator. Of The Sopranos, apparently he was. Apparently he was infamous for if you pissed him off, he would just have your character whacked you'd. Come back and you come back and.

26:36 You read the script to the next. Episode and you're gone and. You were killed. Off. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, I did. Well, I've actually, I've had friends now that are that read the first book and now writing me and say, hey, will you put me in the second book? And I said, yeah, but I can't guarantee you can make it through it. Oh, that's cool. You know, use my name and, you know, see what happens. And so two of them are not going to make it out of the second book. I know that much. So. I see when they fall on your list. Of buddies, yeah, they're good guys. But so you know, 11 challenge that we haven't touched on when we talk about the cadence of writing the book and how I'm trying to get out a couple of year is I have a unique situation and commitment that I have to meet when I write a book. Now, if I'm writing a cookbook, this isn't a problem. But if I'm writing anything that's CIA related, I'm still bound by my secrecy agreement that I signed, let me see, 41 years ago day.

27:38 After tomorrow it'll be 41 years since I since I signed this piece of paper. So I'm bound to it for life. The secrecy agreement, which states that anything I write, again, cookbooks aside, that has anything related at all to the Ciai have to submit the manuscript for review and approval by what's called the CIA Pre Publication Classification Review Board. So, and I did that with book 1. I sent them the manuscript. Now understanding that I was not never and I never would intentionally divulge any true classified information. And but their role is to make sure that I didn't that I didn't even unintentionally do it.

28:23 And so they back to you. It was less so than I actually thought it was about, it was about a month I think it took for them to get back to me with their redactions. And they had some, and you know, some is some of the redactions were simply because again, I've been out of the agency I was in for a little over 10 years. So I've been out for 30. And I thought, you know, it was something that I've written and I wrote the name of a building and I thought that they didn't use that building anymore. And apparently I was wrong because they made me redact that name. So I changed it. I changed the name of the building. And then they, they asked me to redact. They must have pulled my file and they asked me to redact some information.

29:11 The, the, the protagonist mentions he worked in XYZ field office and it was the field office I worked in. And they, they asked me to redact that. So I changed the name of the field office and then do they? Tell you Do they tell you specific reasons why redactions have to? Happen No, they, they didn't tell me. They just said it was redacted. It had it had to be be removed. They they actually asked me to redact something that I completely made-up. I, I, I referenced, I referenced a situation where someone was standing up at a certain point and I, I said there was a, a, a certain type of weapon, you know, I in the knee well of that desk, which was completely made-up.

29:57 And they made me redact that, which made me think, OK, I've been out 30 years. Maybe that weapon is, is now in the meanwhile of that desk. So maybe I just stumbled upon something that, that they asked me to. So I, I changed that. So obviously I'm going to do anything that they ask me now, you know, I'm very clear and they are very clear that the fact that they have now give me the redactions, I make the changes and I published the book. In no way are they endorsing the book, you know, recommending the book or anything like that. They're just saying that it went through the process and I was cleared to and I was cleared to publish it.

30:37 And so I have to do that now for every, you know, every volume that comes out next. And matter of fact, at the end of our discussion today, I'm going to go hit send and send the the manuscript for Book 2 off to them for their review. No way. It's ready. It's ready for them to review. It is not ready to publish, but it's ready for them to review. So, you know, I'll send it to them and it doesn't have to go back and forth multiple times unless I were to make really substantive changes. So as long as I do the redactions that they say I need to redact and I'm. I'm, I'm relatively certain they'll be even fewer in this book than in the first one, because the first one I was taking great pains to, to talk about, you know, inner workings of the agency and, and paint a picture, you know, talking about the exterior of the building and the Nathan Hale statue outside of the main headquarters in the lobby. And then the, the, the seal, the great seal, you know, on the, on the granite floor of the lobby, the memorial, the stars carved in the memorial wall.

31:45 The, you know, what's in the CIA museum, you know, the greatest collection of espionage related artifacts in the world that the vast majority of people will never see. I talked about certain things in there and you know, how the, how the, you know, the floors are laid out and things like that. So I, I was putting a lot of detail in the first book. Again, a lot of it, you know, take a lot. Of that detail. Out No, no, they didn't make me take. They didn't make me take hardly any of that detail out. It was more they're really worried about what we call sources and methods, right? They're worried about, you know, either inadvertently talking about something that still remains classified or talking about, you know, well, you know, the sources and methods, you know, techniques that that they don't want, you know, put out there. So.

32:42 So yeah, the, the, you know, what color the walls were and all that. They weren't. They weren't too worried about that. Right, right, right. But something that could be a little bit more used to understand the workings of or day-to-day. Right if. Things could be more concerned about. And, and the plot line also goes back to to you can almost call it historical fiction because I used real incidences that happened when I was there involving a famous KGB defector who defected to the agency and then re defected months later. And that's a major plot line in the book.

33:23 So I was used, I used his real name and real facts about that case, you know. No, it's not it That story itself is. Yeah. The guy's name was Vitaly Yurchenko. He was a K GB Colonel that defected in 1984. Five, I think. So the middle of the Cold War. Yeah, the middle of the Cold War. And he, he defected in, I think he was stationed in Berlin. I have to go back and read my book now. He's stationed in Berlin and defected to the agency. We scooped him up, got him back to the US, debriefed him at, you know, a facility and then moved him around.

34:12 There's a whole bunch of moving parts around him. And what eventually happened is he the members of the office security, which is which I worked in, had him out in Georgetown at a, at a specific restaurant. And I named the restaurant doesn't exist anymore, but I named the restaurant and it's you know, it's common knowledge where it happened and the location. There's actually a plaque on the wall of the building on on Wisconsin Ave. I think where it happened. And and what happened is he, you know, he has to go to the bathroom. Something came back, told the rookie CIA security officer that was with him.

34:56 Are you going to shoot me if I walk away? He said no. And he said, I'm sorry, I'm doing this to you. And he turned around and walked away and walked out. And then, you know, chaos ensued. They couldn't find him until a day or two later, he showed up at a press conference at the Soviet embassy. So then the big the big story was, was he a double agent? Was he sent there on purpose? Was he sending all of that I work into the book. So I used a lot of true, you know, you know, events and weave that into the storyline of the book. How much, how much does or how much are you guys are you trained in? And I guess this applies for both CIA and your security job. How much are you trained in psychology and understanding people and dealing with people when it comes to your type, when it comes to security, type of positions? So, well, it, it depends on your role in the agency. You know, obviously there, there are certain roles where a case officer, for example, which I was not in the director of operations, a case officer is what the, you know, in the vernacular, people call them a spy, the ones that work overseas and their job is to convince other people to spy for them against their country, right.

36:18 So they, they are trained very heavily on how to manipulate people and read people and do certain things along those lines. In my world in security as an investigator, we are trained in certain investigator techniques, investigation techniques, and in certain elicitation techniques and how to interview somebody and elicit the information we want, how to gain their trust and how to, you know, work, work a case in a specific way towards a logical conclusion while gaining, you know, all the facts that you need to gain.

36:58 And, you know, the interview process is a big part of that. So there's a lot of psychology built around that and techniques that that we use. And that was both in the agency. And then, you know, as my, my global security career progressed, you use the same type of things when you're investigating a theft or any type of threat or investigation that that you have to do for corporate entities. It's the exact same tools and skill sets I would have used during my agency days. I see. So your skill set was able to carry over pretty easily from the public sector to the, I guess, the corporate, I guess. From the to. The to the corporate sector.

37:40 Yeah, 100%. I, I did. And because I, I always worked in large global international companies, it, it directly translated, you know, I, I think, I'm not exactly sure where I am right now. I've lost count, but I've probably visited, worked in 70 countries or more, you know, across every continent pretty much. So. So I've done a lot of international work just like I did in the agency for these global companies. Again, you know, with all the same type of issues, whether it's physical security or investigations or threat analysis. You know, I always would have a intelligence function of some sort with my background.

38:31 You know, I would always build an intelligence function in every one of the corporate jobs. I had to have a team of analysts that are looking at threats globally and how they might affect either the company itself, our personnel, our assets, our Tier 1 suppliers, etcetera, etcetera. Right. And that actually that's going to get me I think to kind of the next, I guess transition transitional phase. I want I'm going to come back to the book and the writing for sure. But first of all, if there are very similar skill sets that carry over from that CIA sector to the corporate sector, is there is there a relationship between the two?

39:16 Did you continue to have some kind of relationship, You know, once you're kind of working corporate, big company, private security abroad, I imagine you'd have to work with kind of American authorities if it's going to be an American based company, right? Yes, certainly, you know, we would have relationships with all manner of federal agencies, whether it's the the FBI or immigration or, you know, Marshall Service or you, you name it. You always wanted to maintain, you know, relationships throughout, you know, various government entities. I had a unique relationship with the agency, obviously because of my background. And occasionally they'd be interested. And this is not classified.

39:58 There's a entire function of the agency whose job it is to, you know, interface with corporations and, you know, ask questions. And, you know, if, if there are, you know, employees that are travelling to certain areas, maybe going to a conference or something like that, the the agency might want to interview those people when they come back. It's all you know, you know. Understood declared above board. There's nothing clandestine about it. So I would have those type of relationships and then 11 situation popped up where I had I was I was in the private industry.

40:39 I was getting ready to make a trip to Moscow. First time I I was going to Moscow I what that was a denied area when I was in the agency. I couldn't go there then, but I was going as part No, no, just, you know, it's a deny. It was a denied area. So there had to been of a mission critical reason for me to have been going to Moscow. I wouldn't I wouldn't have gone there on vacation or something like that. So, but I was out of the agency and I was in private industry and I had, you know, a corporate reason to go. I had mentioned it to one of my buddies that was still in. And then I don't know, it was probably a week or two before I was leaving.

41:27 I got a call from the chief of station in New York asking to meet with me. And I said sure. And I went and met with him and he, he told me, he said, I understand you're going to, to Moscow. And I, I, I had to put the pieces together. How did he know? And I, I said, oh, my buddy must have told him somehow it gotten through the system. And he said, we highly recommend you don't go. And I said, OK, give me a reason. He said, well, it is a little bit convoluted story, but apparently what happened is the FBI had wrapped up a retired, this is back of the days of KGB, a retired KGB officer and the rush the Soviets, I think it's still at the time were not happy about it because this guy was out of the game and he got arrested. And the threat was that they were going to arrest the next former CIA guy that came in the country. And apparently that apparently that was going to be me. So, you know, as soon as they told me that, I said no problem. I have no interest in seeing the inside of Lubianca prison. I'm good.

42:36 I and I said I'm not going and it's like I postponed the trip. And then 6-8 months later, something like that, I got a call saying, OK, we're good to go. It's been resolved, you can go. And so eventually I ended up going like I think I visited twice, something like that. Moscow, But yeah, yeah. So but that was a it, it was, it was amazing. It was, it was AI went twice. I went once in the dead of winter, which I wouldn't recommend. It was cold. Everything you hear about, about the, you know, the, the freezing cold and what the, what happened in World War 2 and all that kind of stuff, you know, I can see it.

43:17 Then I went one time in the spring and it was beautiful And, and it, you know, the, the Soviet Union had fallen at that point. And there was, you know, this weird mix of, of capitalism trying to start and a lot of weird things going on. But yeah, it was a great experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I've been to, I've been to Ukraine, I've been to Poland and I've, I kind of, when I went, when I was in, in school, I was, I spent a year studying in Israel. And part of what they do is they offer you an opportunity to go to Poland and Ukraine and kind of get and, and get a history of World War 2 and what happened and actually, you know, kind of go through it. Yeah.

44:04 And my grandfather, who'd been a survivor, although he kind of survived him and his family struggled through actually the Russian side of things. I just, I'm just discovering all this because he passed away two or three years ago. And I wasn't really aware of geography or politics or history at that point. So whenever he was talking to me, it was very hard for me to process and place what was going on in my mind, you know. But he was born in Poland right before Germany took it, I guess in World War 2, on the border of Poland and Ukraine, and his family crossed over to Ukraine figuring the Russians would be better to deal with than the Nazis. But they got 10.

44:45 That's a tough choice, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, America has to make that tough choice to deal with too, right? You know. Everyone has to. Deal at that point with that tough choice, but they chose to go to the to Russia and they got sent to a slave labour camp in Siberia or sorry, not a slave labour, A labour camp in Siberia, which is essentially a slave labour camp. And until they until they made their way to, you know, I guess Northern Asia, you know, towards the end of the war, are they able to get out of the out of that part of the out of the world? But, you know, I'm just, I'm so fascinated now. I've been so fascinated. Now, now, right there, there's a novel for you to write. There's there's that's a really compelling story My.

45:28 Father was begging, was actually begging me to write this because I'm a, he's a, he was a historian. And he actually published. Did he leave any? Did he leave anything behind? Any notes behind? Oh yeah, he published. A memoir, and I could actually send it to you, I think. I mean, it's really, really interesting. And it's really. I'd love to read it. Yeah. Well, pick it, Pick. It's really funny you should say that because just yesterday I dug up a, a memoir of sorts of family history that was written by one of my relatives way back when, who kind of along the same lines.

46:08 My family tree goes from Germany to Russia to the Volga region of Russia. And then from so this is German immigrant population that went to Russia and then in the 1800s or so, mid to late 1800s immigrated to to the US. We saw there's a German Russian connection. And I, I just dug up this book yesterday looking at to say maybe, you know, a project down the line could be a family history memoir type thing using that book that was written in 19. It was written about the time I was born because I'm actually in the book that they list me as a family member. So it had to be in 1962 or so that it was that it was made. So, So yeah, if you have something from your grandfather, which I think is amazing, you know, that would be, that would be a great jumping off point for, for either a, you know, a true memoir written well or a historical fiction or something along those lines.

47:13 Yeah, that's exciting. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I would love to, especially because now again, it speaks to me and I think that, you know, he was. Yeah, again, he was an historian and none of my family is. And I was the oldest to my family, so, you know, he was. So I, you know, if I wasn't really interested and none of my younger siblings are mature enough or, you know, I guess even educated enough to really be aware of what was going on. But but it was really, I mean, it, it, it and now I have it and it feels so cool and so special to have that bit of family history to be able to like, you know, be able to relate and understand and kind of look into that. But yeah, actually, and, and maybe that I could bring us back a little bit to the writing conversation because my biggest problem as a writer is I have a hard time keeping track of the whole story and then getting lost and actually making the story happen. What's your, what was your process when it comes to, when it comes to the big picture story and then, you know, writing the filling in the details and the characters along the way.

48:13 So you in in the writing community, they call it a you're either a plotter where you plot out everything. And there's many ways to do some people just do it, you know, in a notebook. Some people do it post it notes on the wall. Or you're a pantser. You know, you, you're flying by the seat of your pants. You just start writing and see where the story goes. I thought I was a plotter. Yeah, well, yeah. So I thought I was a plotter. I plotted out my book where where I thought the story was going to go, what the story was going to be. I did, I had it from A-Z written out. And then after probably 2 chapters in, it took a hard left turn and went a completely different direction. And I just, I just went with it.

49:00 I just said, OK, I'm just going to go with this story the way it's the way it's written. I, I would come up with new, no, I saved everything I, I plotted out for that book. I saved it because maybe it'll end up in book 3 or 4. It's not in book 2, but, but yeah, so I, I just, they also, people also call it a discovery writer. And it, it really kind of spoke to me as I started writing something and then an idea hit me and I kept going with it and going with it. And, and the, the, everything I talked about the your Chenko redefection, all that was none of that was in book one. It was in the, what I plotted for book one. It just ended up there as I, you know, made my way through the story.

49:44 And, and then, but to your point also on how do you keep track of everything? There are, you know, you know, some people just write in Word or in Google Docs or there's a, there's a software called Scrivener, which is very robust. And you can have in that software you're writing in one pane and then you have tiles, you know, in other panes with plot points and you can move chapters around. You can do all kinds of fancy stuff with it. And I wrote book one in that I'm actually using a different software for book 2. Yes, it, it, it does. You could, and there's a, there's a number of different software's that that do things like that. So you can, you can be as sophisticated as you want as you do it. I just try and keep it all in my head as I'm going. And then I go back as I'm making, you know, edits, I'll think of something and say, OK, I got to go back to this chapter because I know that's where this incident happens. And you know, then I'll, I'll work on it there. So, but I, I enjoy the process of weaving myself through the story.

50:51 And then you end up, you know, sometimes you write yourself into a corner, you end up with a plot hole you can't get out of. And then I'll sit there and struggle with it. And then, you know, one day in the shower, I'll be driving in my car. Well, eventually he comes to you say, OK, either either you give up and you backtrack and you go a different direction, which I which I'm just too stubborn to do that, or you you figure it out. And eventually I figured out a way to get out of a certain plot that I was stuck in for weeks. And and and and. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Finish your thought. I'm sorry about that. So in in book 1, I wrote it in a linear fashion.

51:32 I started at, you know, the opening sentence, which I rewrote 57 times, but the opening sentence and then all the way through the end in a in straight order. In book 2, I got myself in a little bit of a jam. And so I said, you know what, I'm going to leave this. And then I went, I jumped ahead 10 chapters to a scene that I had in my head that that I knew I was going to write. So I jumped ahead to that scene and then went back and bridged the gap. And so that was a way to Get Me Out of, you know, get my head out of this plot hole I was in, go write a scene that I knew I was going to be in there and then figure out how I was going to bridge them.

52:14 So that that was a fun way to do to do it this. Way it's a great it's a great method. I had a teacher that used to say you got to plan your life somewhere between 5 minutes and five years from now. And if you don't know what it's going to like look like in 5 minutes, then think about it in a year or in a week or in a month. And then and then where you want to be and how are you going to bridge those two, Right. And I think that's a very similar experience that what you're just what you're just describing, you know, where sometimes you know the right path to take, look where you want to end up and then and then and then see what options lie, you know, lie before you. I think it's a really, I think it's really cool. Another thing that you, that you mentioned that I wanted to kind of jump on also that I want you to bring some more light to and focus to is that you don't throw out or get rid of any of these like plot points that you start wandering down and meandering down.

53:03 And just even today, you know, I had some students, I'm trying to, I'm teaching 9th grade, the difference between capitalism and communism and, and you know, and my students are, you know, trying to write these answers and they get frustrated. They RIP up their paper and throw it out. I'm like, no, what are you doing? They're like, they're like, it's not good. I'm like, it's fine. It's important that you keep track of the way that you're thinking and important for you to be able to keep this and look back and be able to say, oh, right, that didn't make sense. This makes sense, you know, or that. Yeah, a couple. Of sentences worked out this couple of sentences, didn't you know, but at least you can save a little bit for later. One of the another great writing writing exercise that we did when I was learning how to write creatively was everyone would write a poem, you know, for 5-10 minutes, whatever it was.

53:54 And then everyone would read their poem out loud and you would write whatever details. It could be a word or a line or a description or a sentence. You'd write what captured you, you know, and you'd be forced to integrate that into your next poem because there's something about that that stuck out to you enough to make itself stick in your head. And that's there's a reason for that. So don't throw that out. That's not garbage. Use that again, you know, recycle it. And I think that any writer will tell you recycling is a huge part of the. Industry, yeah, I mean, because you never know when that nugget that you had before will fit someplace else or, or just serve as inspiration to get you say, yeah, this was OK, but I could now use it in a different way or, you know, give you the inspiration to to take off on another project. Yeah.

54:51 So tell me about your early how you got into the agency. Was this a family thing? Was this like a? Patriotic thing? No something. You just weren't sure what you wanted to do, so you decided to end up there. How'd this happen? No, it was more of the patriotic thing. So I went to school in San Diego, UC San Diego, and was graduating as a political science major. This was after I'd spent, you know, three years as a pre Med major, but after I failed, after I failed organic chemistry for the second time, I figured, you know, the doctor things just not going to work out for me. So I've heard that, by the way, about organic. Chemistry from a lot of a lot of we've all said. That yeah well, it it organic O Cam and I did not get along so so I you know, I thought to myself, you know what else do I like I like politics back then and I still do so I you know, I dropped you know the and how old are you? I think I I guess college you were so this is this is my junior year, halfway through my junior year of college. And so what's going on?

55:57 You know, I dropped that you're. Involved politically right now. Oh, now or back then? No, no, no. Back then what? What made? You. Interested back then so well back then. So this was 19. I graduated in 84. This is like 83. So, you know, it was Ronald Reagan and, you know, the shining city on the hill type thing and, and the, you know, the Soviets were the red menace. And so all of that was kind of, you know, building the, you know, the the world around me. And so I went to I became a poli sci major. I graduated on time. I was able to, you know, drop all the science classes, pick up all the poli sci classes, work my butt off to get out in time and again.

56:45 So now I'm dating myself. This was the Internet didn't exist. And you know, what I did is I walked into the Career Center one day and there's a bunch of binders on the wall that, you know, for various companies and, you know, agencies and, you know, not, not for profits and you name it. You know what any college Career Center would have for every major. And I'm looking and I there was one, there's a Central Intelligence Agency. And I knew I want to do something in the government with my poli sci background. And so I was applying to, you know, congressional offices. I applied with what back then was called the Naval Investigative Service and I pulled the agency one down and I read through what they were looking for and you know, of course it, it, it seemed really interesting to me.

57:36 So I, I'm sure I went back to my dorm room and pulled out the typewriter and typed out a letter and send it off in snail mail. And, you know, weeks later, I got a phone call from a Mr. Jones. And of course, I thought that was immediately thought that was a pseudonym. Turns out his name really was Mr. Jones. Yeah, through the interview process. And they, they were looking for, you know, it was again, you know, for your listeners, this was 40 years ago, so a much different time in the world. And they were looking for the all American men and women who could, you know, for God and country, you know, join the agency, pass the polygraph and go out and do their work and pass the polygraph. You know, I think that.

58:27 Mean you're not lying about something or pass the polygraph that shows. You but yeah, well, no to assume you're not lying. So part of the background, you know, the background investigation was very intense. You know, they do a full scope. We call a full scope background investigation everywhere I had lived for the past 15 years, every place I had worked, which admittedly wasn't much. I had a couple of part time jobs. I was coming right out of school. Every, you know, you know, the family members were interviewed and friends and you know, other, you know, people were, were developed as, as to be interviewed as to, you know, everything about me. Then, you know, I had to go back and pass, you know, a medical exam and pass a polygraph to, you know, prove that I wasn't a Soviet agent and all of that type of thing. And when I got to the polygraph part, I, I said, OK, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get this job because I, I knew I wasn't a Soviet agent.

59:23 I knew I'd pass the Poly. Still. They still, they still, yeah, they still really put you through the wringer on that thing. And and then you know, when you're in, you get repollied. They called periodic reinvestigations re polygraphs every couple of years. And you know, it's never a pleasant experience, but if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to hide as you go through it. My wife on the other hand failed it every time she would get I don't know how she I don't know how they ever hired her because she every time she took the Poly she just got so nervous she she would end up failing and have to go back and take it again until the shoes finally. You know, got through it, but you know, they can tell if you're being deceptive or if you're just being nervous and making the box flutter, you know, so there's, there's a, they're really good at what they do. You know, there's an art to it, there's a science to it and there's an art to being a polygrapher. I, I toyed with the idea of joining the, the, you know, becoming a polygrapher and joining that team when I was in and, you know, never, never actually went down that road. But so, yeah, so cool.

1:00:32 World to dive into as from an author's perspective. Yeah, I mean, oh, 100% and that, that that's. Cool. Yeah, that'll definitely, you know, they'll they'll that'll play somewhere in my in my stories. I mean, I mentioned, I think I mentioned it in book one. It is, you know, just as a, a side comment about, you know, having to take a, a polygraph exam, you know, when you're, when you're inside the agency. But so that process, you know, it takes quite a while. I think I graduated in, I graduated in May or June. And well, I'd started the process before I graduated.

1:01:15 And I, like I said, I entered on duty in September of, of 84. So it took, it took a few months to get through. Yeah. And it's probably it's longer now. Please sorry finish your thought. I'm sorry. Not to say it's longer. I'm sure it takes longer now and they're looking for different skill sets now, you know, you know, now I'm sure they want people with extensive overseas experience who've lived overseas, worked overseas. Again, depending on the type of roles, you know, for case officers, they're going to want somebody that speaks foreign languages and has other type of experiences that I didn't have back then. But I also wasn't looking, you know, at that point, I wasn't looking to become a case officer. I was drawn to the, the, the security side. So I spent my career doing investigations. I spent a long part of my career, which is what the books are based on, on the director's protective staff. Back then it was called the DCI security staff. Now it's called the director's protective staff. They're the, they're the internal team that protects the, the director and the deputy director in their families. And so I, I spent a long time doing that, travelling around the world doing that for a long time. That's that's the basis for the primary character in my His Name is Grant Hunter in my Grant Hunter thriller series. Well, OK, I got a lot of I got a lot of follow up questions over here, but this is great.

1:02:48 First of all, I guess that this could be just quick. This is a quick follow up. Is the case officer something just glorified by Hollywood or does it have a lot of status in the agency that oh, he's a case officer, she's a case officer and it's really hard to do. It's really impressive. And so you have more respect for them? Or is that just kind? Of well, they, they definitely, I mean the every role in the agency is important. So there you have your your case officers are the ones that are out primarily overseas, you know, working their assets to gather the information that's important to the country. Then you have, you know, so that's, that's a very important role. And that's the one that tends to get glorified most by Hollywood. But then you have your is.

1:03:36 It one of the more difficult roles or careers to get within the agency or it's you. Know it's that's. Just. It's again, it depends on your it depends on your skill set. You know, if you you know there arguably some would say, you know, the ground branch paramilitary team is a very difficult role to get because you have to come into that with military experience and background tier one work. So case officers is, is it difficult? Because you have to, it's a very difficult life. You have to have a specific mindset to do it. You're undercover primarily your entire career. And I was undercover my entire career. So that that's a undercover security, you know, it's AII was I was undercover.

1:04:22 So I was not a declared agency person until I left. They opened me up when I left. But during my entire time. Yeah. So I I didn't, you know, if you asked me who I worked for, I would have given you my cover. My wife and I had to come up with a cover story of how we met because she was open. She was a known open CIA employee and I was undercover. So we had to have a cover story of how we met. We had to have a cover story of why was it, why was the the director of the CIA at our wedding? Because. So we had to have a cover story for that. We had, you know, there was, it's a, it's a difficult lifestyle when you're under now only a small fraction of agency personnel are undercover and have to go through that type of, of process and, and, you know, understanding of how you're going to live your life. So yes, you know, case officer is a difficult role, but it's, you know, it could be argued that an analyst has an equally difficult and arguably as important a role because they have to take the raw data that's coming in from the field and synthesize that into actionable intelligence that the policy makers can then use.

1:05:38 So you have you have your collection side of the house, you have your analysis side of your house, you have directorate called the director of science and technology. You know, those are all the big brain guys that are, you know, coming up with the covert communications and you know, you know, the the latest and greatest technology for eavesdropping and, and dead drops and all of those kind of things. So that's a that's a very important role. Then you have what in my day is called the director of administration. I think it's called the director of support now, and that's everyone else that makes the agency run. So without, you know, the security team and, or the psychologist and the medical professionals and, you know, the, the lawyers and the congressional liaison and all of the other things that make, you know, the, you know, people, you hear people refer to the agency as a company, you know, make the company run equally important. So it just depends on where your skill sets fit and you got linguists and everything else in between. It's a It's a fascinating place to work. I can imagine, I can totally imagine The other thing I wanted to ask you just based on your answers before and maybe you can give me a little bit of a contact understanding context. One thing I've been thinking a lot about recently is the fact that history didn't start today,

1:07:13 you know, or last year or five years ago or when I was born, you know, and I'm really, really curious, especially when you were politically, you know, active or interested and engaged in the 80s. What, what do you think? What, what, what was like the core difference between, you know, what was considered a liberal back then and a conservative back then relative to today, you know, and what you know, like, you know, obviously Russia was the big was the big, you know, blip on America's radar in the 80s. What was what was the we? Did everyone agree left and right that Russia was a problem? Did it was just a difference in how to resolve it or how to deal with it?

1:08:00 Or was there a question as to whether or not Russia was even a problem? Whether you know what you know what, what, what, what was the political world like while you were engaged in it? You know and you know and you, you feel free to elaborate on your personal opinions or to leave them out, whatever you're more comfortable. With yeah, so this is definitely, this is definitely the world according to Scott and not, you know, not agency doctrine or anything else. I mean, obviously you've already hit on it. It was a completely different world in a number of different ways. Yes, there was, you know, the, IT was still when I was there, it was still the Soviet Union which was the big primary, a not the, but a big primary focus. But so is China, right.

1:08:45 So and and then there was how? Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, China was not as sophisticated as the Russians were in far as far as geopolitical and again, my opinion, geopolitical influence peddling and all of that as as a Soviet work. Remember the, you know, the Soviets were again decades before, you know, causing mayhem with the, you know, the Cuban missile crisis and things like that, where they were pushing their influence out and, and threatening the the US in a number of different ways. And when I was in the Soviets who had made their move into Afghanistan.

1:09:34 And so, you know, we were supporting the Muhaja Deen and it it was a proxy war of sorts supporting them and as well. That's exactly where I was going. You know, you know, it's, it's a little bit dramatic, but I think it was Charlie Wilson's War is a excellent movie for any of your listeners that are interested in that time period to go watch because it it's you know, from my limited. Yeah, it's I, I think it's, I think it's outstanding. It tells the story in a fairly accurate way of how, you know, the agency started building up its its support of anti Soviet forces. Now I think the agency will be the first to admit and, and I will too.

1:10:25 After the Soviets left, we dropped the ball there and which allowed the, you know, the, the fermentation of the radical Islamic, you know, extremism, which ended up coming back to get us on 9/11, right. So there's, you know, there's lessons to be, there's definitely lessons to be learned there. But but, and then the other thing, you know, you know, you asked about what was conservative and what was liberal. You know, back then it was, you know, Democrat and Republican. But, but if you think, and I, I know that I, you know, I'm much older than you are. But back then, you know, the Democrats and the Republicans actually worked together.

1:11:12 You know, you'd have tip O'Neill, who is the speaker of the House for, you know, decades would work with Republicans to and, and vice versa to actually get some things done. It wasn't this, this bomb throwing animosity that we have now. And, and, but you know, a lot of what we, you know, a lot of the social ills that we have now, I'm convinced are part and parcel to, you know, the advent of social media and the fact that anybody, you know, can say anything at any time and push it out to millions of people.

1:11:54 And so there's the the the extremists on both sides are to me, you know, very it's very disappointing. And I was asked in another podcast, yeah, well, I think so as well. But I was asked in another podcast is do I do I let any of that into my writing? And I'm, I'm being very deliberate not to, you know, AI, just like I said, it's disappointing and I think it's dangerous to a certain extent. But B, just as a, you know, as an author and you know, you want it, you're also a businessman because you, you've got this business around your books.

1:12:35 You know, I don't want to automatically, you know? Turn off half your audience. Piss off half of the half of my reading audience because I land on one side of the political spectrum or the other. So that's that's just not good business. But also, I don't think it's it's compelling storytelling either, unless there's, you know, a specific plot point you're trying to make. So at the time, left and right agreed that there is the same issue and they just had varying degrees or I guess line or, you know, responses and what would be appropriate to deal with the issue. Because it feels like today. And one of the actually one of the reasons why I even started this podcast to begin with is because, you know, today we can't even agree on what the same freaking problem is.

1:13:21 I mean, you could tell someone, hey, you know, this, you know, this, this group is a problem. And they'll be like, what group? And then like, you know, and then you wait four years and then the next group will be like, that was a big problem. You're like, what? You, you didn't respond. You've been talking about that for four years because you were talking about it, you know. And yeah, you're absolutely right, both sides are guilty of it. And, and it's, you know, it's the extremist viewpoints on both sides. I mean, you couldn't get them to agree that the sky is blue right on on any given day. So when, when there's absolutely 0 common ground at all, you know, I don't know how anything can get done.

1:14:04 So, you know, it's a, we're certainly not going to solve it on this podcast, but it's a, it's a, it's a significant, it's a significant problem, but. Yeah, it is. One thing you just mentioned also was was the online presence which has become extremely I guess controversial. And, you know, one of the points that people make is that potentially that and almost certainly not even potentially that different, that different intelligences around the world will will kind of try to push or highlight stories on online to kind of create or force a narrative.

1:14:55 You know, and on one hand, you kind of feel torn because you want to protect freedom of speech. On the other hand, you know, these are potentially foreign adversaries acting. Do you do you have any? First of all, I think that's a, that's a great thing to influence into a book, right into the question of what to do with such a thing. But do you, do you have any thoughts on any of that? Well, I mean, it's, it's certainly, I mean, we've, we've seen it, it's the case. And again, on both sides, you have, you know, various adversaries that are, you know, pushing a, as you say, a narrative or, you know, I hate the term fake news just to try and muddy the waters or maybe, you know, influence those that are susceptible to it. I mean, I, I truly believe, you know, people have a, a duty to, to be, you know, aware of what, you know, who and what they're voting for.

1:15:56 But those that are, are more susceptible to a certain type of rhetoric or whatever. Certainly that happens. And, and now, you know, we're, we're getting into even more, I believe, dangerous territory with the advent of AI and the things that can happen in AI that, you know, back in the day, you know, a politician would get caught in a sex scandal or something. There'd be a photo of them. And they'd always say that photo was, you know, was doctored or photoshopped and it never was. It was always them. Well, nowadays with AI and what they can do, you know, they can make a whole videotape that and you cannot tell.

1:16:38 So, so there's it, it's just a strange new world that we're all going to have to, you know, get ourselves through. And, and again, I, I'd be the last one to say I have any, you know, any true answers for, for any of these problems. But as you keep alluding to, there's, there's plenty of plenty of fodder for, for future storylines and plot lines and, and you know, ways to weave some of this, these challenges in into the book. And, and, and you know, right now I'm because of how I wrote the, the book one with references to what was happening in 1984 with the Yorchenko defection and all that. It, the, the book Book 1 was kind of set in like 2012. Book 2 is like in 2014, 2015.

1:17:31 Eventually I'll be moving forward and, and I always have to catch myself and go back and as I'm doing research on a, on a certain technology or a weapon system or an aircraft or whatever, I have to go back and Google it or at ChatGPT. Did this exist in, you know, 2014? Because last thing I want to do is get called out for a second, you know, No, Scott, that didn't come out until 2022. So, yeah, so yeah, there's, you know, as I move, as I move the storyline, as I move the storyline forward, I will eventually be, you know, incorporating some of these newer, you know, challenges and topics into future stories.

1:18:14 Yeah, what's, what's your homework like? What's your homework like when it comes to a topic? Because you know. There are people I, I, I have a friend of mine and you know, I met him a couple of months ago and he's, he's a great dude. And one thing that he does so well is that every time he's interested in the topic, he loves doing deep dives and homework into, you know, and like, you know, crawling into these rabbit holes and just, you know, seeing where he ends up. Do you what's, what's your homework like when it when it comes to writing this? Do you do homework hoping to find new material or do you have the material in advance and look to do homework after that? What's the? What's the process? It's a, it's a little bit of both. I mean, obviously I knew as I walked down this, this one storyline with, with the Yorchenko defection, I knew I was going with that and I, I'd lived some of it and I'd researched that particular case quite a bit.

1:19:09 And I was polling from multiple sources, not just Googling it. I was going to the agency and you can go online in the agency and look at, at certain things that they're published about certain issues where it's declassified, it's out there. So I was researching that and then I would, you know, I, I, I had to go through, there's a part of the plot line involves the use of one time, you know, cipher, one time pads. So I had to get smart because I had never actually used one myself on how A1 time pad worked. So I, I went down that rabbit hole and then, you know, it, the, the book was initially set. The initial scenes are in Thailand. Now I'd visited Thailand and worked in Thailand on several occasions.

1:19:56 So I had broadly knew what I was talking about. But then to, you know, make specific, you know, if I was describing A surveillance detection route, I wanted to be accurate. So then I was researching the road maps and you know, if I was running an SDR in Thailand today, these are the roads I would take and then weaving that into the book. So there's, you know, I, I think that the, that the research is just as enjoyable as the writing part. You know, there's a lot to a lot to get into. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you do you watch White Lotus? When? This newest season? Are you a fan of the show?

1:20:39 No, my my wife. My wife is a fan but I don't think I've ever seen it. You should check it out. It's, it's what, what I think you would like about it, especially from a writer's point of view, is that it's a very deliberate and intentional and, and, and it feels like there was a lot of love and attention put into every single shot and every single scene. And, you know, and so from a commercial sense, it's not too, you know, typical in terms of like popping and cutting or whatever it is. But you know, from a, from a storyteller's perspective, it's, it's, it's really a work of art. And the and the and the and the latest season was was in was in Thailand, which is what I was asking. About yeah, that's what she told me it was. I just.

1:21:33 Yeah. I find it, I find it fascinating that, you know, and I guess this is done and I guess this is for good reason. But how little we know about how little at least Americans seem to know that the rest of the world, you know, like the Far East, Thailand and Japan and you know, China. And I mean, those are, these are all rich cultures that have been on for thousands of years that, that I don't remember hearing. I, I didn't, I couldn't point out a map where they were, you know, and I didn't even notice how much ground they covered on the map. You know, and it's just, it's something that's not really discussed, but it's, it's, it's a remarkable culture, isn't it?

1:22:16 Yeah, it, it definitely is. And the, you know, the more you travel the world, the more glaring that becomes because, you know, you'll, it's amazing. You you go to number places how many people speak English as their, you know, as a second language just because of how business is run. And yet, you know, we have people here that have no clue, you know, again, you know, where to locate certain places on a map or, or how to act when they travel. And so, yeah, it, it, like I said, it's, it's interesting when you see people stumbling through certain places and, you know, I've, I've always enjoyed learning each of the cultures, you know, in places where I've worked to try and, and, you know, respect, you know, respect their, their customs and norms and everything else to make sure that I'm not the quintessential ugly American travelling someplace.

1:23:14 But there's no place like home at the same time. That's very true, there's no doubt about it. Yeah, I went to, I was in, I went on a honeymoon a couple of years ago. We went to Greece, Italy and Ireland for that, for our honeymoon. It was a ton of fun. And I've never been, I've been to Dublin once before that. And, you know, we're in Gree. I think we're in, we're in Italy and we're talking to, we're talking to a couple of stranger, a couple on the street that we'd met. We were, you know, we just, we're just hanging out with. And it was at a bar and they said, what do you call someone that speaks 3 languages? I'm like trilingual. They're like, yeah, we call someone that speaks 2 languages like bilingual, like in someone that speaks one language. I'm like American.

1:24:03 And I was like, oh man, you guys, you guys really didn't have to do much like that. That cut deep, but it's funny. It's true. It's funny, you know. We're talking about, we're talking, you know, we're talking and you know, and we were in Italy and another couple came up and asked a question. Tell me, I wanted to actually ask you about work life balance because I, I presume based on everything you're telling me, you've got a family, including the fact that, you know, your kid went to college and, you know, in, in New Orleans and another kid in California. What was work life balance like? I know that there's a good newfound, you know, almost like it's almost like part of everyday life no matter what. But I'm sure that wasn't the case while you're working security or at the agency.

1:24:51 So what'd you do? Yeah, no. So you're right. You know, way back in the day, work life balance wasn't a term that anybody used. So and you know, initially, as I said, my wife is in the agency too. So she knew what she was getting into with me, that I'd be disappearing for weeks at a time. And you mentioned you recently got married. I disappeared like for three weeks right before the wedding, you know, in the crunch time wedding planning and I was gone on a three-week Middle East trip. So I wasn't too popular at home for that one. But so but she knew what she was getting into the lifestyle I was in her her father was a police officer, her brother was a police officer.

1:25:40 So she she knew about that. And then when, you know, Fast forward a few years and we started having kids, same thing. She, you know, she ended up, she worked initially and then we did the math. And it wasn't the math wasn't mapping and it wasn't making sense for her to continue working. She'd left the agency by that point. She'd been at one point, she'd just been lured away by private industry for, you know, they were looking to hire people that had security clearances, you know, some of these Beltway, you know, companies that were doing work with the government. So she'd left the agency and then eventually when we had kids, it didn't make sense for her to work anymore. So she was home with the kids.

1:26:22 We were fortunate enough to to have that, you know, be the case. But I would be for. America, you could do that. Yeah, right. It was a back, it was a while ago, but then I was, you know, transitioning to corporate America where as I mentioned before, I was still travelling extensively overseas quite often. So, you know, she, she took on the burden of, of the family at at that point and I'd be present when I could be. Then as you know, you know, the corporate life continued and I got more senior in my position. I didn't have to travel necessarily as much because I had teams that were doing it. And then, you know, all the way up to more recently when work life balance became an actual issue. But of course, you know, over the last, you know, 5-6 years, we had the COVID, you know, issue hit and then working remotely became a thing that didn't exist before. So that was a big pivot to be able to say, OK, now our kids were older at this point.

1:27:28 But again, you know, being able to work, literally work from anywhere has been beneficial. And, you know, it's, it's completely different world now for for my kids, the three of them in their careers, two of them work fully remote. And yeah, and they and they have thriving careers and they're able to do that. And quite frankly, I worked, I was, you know, mostly remote for, for the vast majority of the pandemic, you know, before we started going back. And even then, you know, now, now I'm in the office four days a week because I screwed up. I retired, I, I served 12 years as a chief security officer for one of the big three automotive companies here in Detroit. I retired in last year thinking, knowing that I would probably get back in the game at some point. And that's when I wrote the book and did all that. And then I screwed up one day and answered the phone call from a headhunter and I got, I got dragged back into the corporate world and I'm really enjoying a totally new field right now. But, but so now I'm balancing.

1:28:49 I am, I'm the vice president of security, safety and loss prevention for a very large global in our space, the largest restaurant chain in our, in our space. So, so it's a it's a new world for me being in the, you know, the restaurant type world. But so I'm now balancing, you talk about work life balance, I'm balancing, you know, you know, running a global operation with my family obligations here, you know, a brand new grandchild and then, you know, then now this, my burgeoning author career as well.

1:29:29 Well, congratulations on the grandchild. Thank you. Yeah. Very exciting. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Do you? Did you ever talk to you? But it was, I guess my question is, it was just from an emotional level. It was just a reality that dad's busy, Dad's working, dad's out of the house. Or how did you feel as dad, you know, for particular events being away for weeks? Yeah, I, I mean, I tried, I tried my best, as I'm sure you do, and and others that, you know, to be present when I could for major events and all that. I don't think I missed, you know, I, I know I missed some Christmases, you know, when I was out on assignment and, and things like that.

1:30:11 And I'm sure I've missed birthdays, but but I tried to be as present as possible when I could be. It was interesting when my grandchild, my granddaughter was born, my son-in-law, my daughter obviously had, you know, long maternity leave. My son-in-law had an equally long paternity leave, which didn't exist, which absolutely did not exist when, you know, when my kids were born, you know, 25 years ago and more. So I think I, I think I was off for a day and 1/2 or something to help out when I was back at it. Yeah, exactly. So, so, so it's different, but again, you know, you have, you have to be thoughtful and intent, you know, attentive to when you are home, that you are present with the kids.

1:31:02 And you know, again, I'm, I'm the last one to give, you know, parenting advice, but we've, we've been blessed and, and successful with our family and, and, you know, we had, we had the support of other family members to help when, when needed. And it was just a different world than it is today. It was, you know, it's funny, I, I was talking to a friend of mine this weekend and she was, and, you know, they were complaining, him and his wife were complaining that, you know, their family lives a little far away in another state. And they feel bad saying that they're kids. They have like I think 3 kids under the age of 5 or 6. They said they feel bad saying their kids take up all their energy because they know how wonderful it is. But I said, I said to them, I was like, you guys are living in one of the first generations in history, you know, where family doesn't just like, move in with you and help out or you don't move in with family and like, like, you guys don't live together as one big unit where everyone helps take care of each other.

1:32:00 You know, like, this is one of the first times ever that someone moves, you know, away from a different state, you know, from their parents and has kids and is just left by themselves in this new state trying to raise the kids by themselves. I was like, you shouldn't feel bad about being exhausted. Isn't, you know, like the world didn't, I don't think the world really, you know, like you said, when you were gone, you had other family members that were able to, that were able to help step up. You know, but that's true. Yeah. And you're right. The, the, no, I, my family, we had moved, you know, away from, from my parents family support. So it was a big deal for us to see our grandparents.

1:32:41 You know, it was a once a year thing that, that I, I always thought it was so cool to, you know, it was exciting to go see your grandparents. And I couldn't understand how, you know, my, my friends, they see their grandparents every weekend. You know, they live next door, they live down the block. And that was totally foreign to me. And then the way our lifestyle has developed, my, my brothers, there's three of us and we live, you know, across the country from each other. So my my one brother still lives in California, where we grew up, But the other one is lives on an island off the coast of Washington State. And I'm out here in Detroit. But I spent, you know, I spent almost 20 years and well, actually more than that between Washington and and New Jersey.

1:33:29 And so, you know, we're used to having families spread around and then valuing our time together when we can get together with everyone. And we're making more of an effort now to do that to, to, you know, have I heard it called, you know, experiential rather than, you know, Christmas is where we, you know, the, the girls don't need another purse. The guys don't need another watch. You know, So the last few years we've been thoughtful about, OK, at Christmas, we're going to all go together on a trip someplace and go, you know, scuba diving and, and, you know, or what whatever the case may be, go on a cruise one year we did.

1:34:10 So, you know, just trying to be together when we can. It's so funny you say that because you know, I, I, my, my, the. The, my, my primary job is I do sales. And so even though I've, I've been work, I've been working remote since 2019, since before it's cool. And you know, and I, and so even though I'm always remote, I'm never off the clock. And so for our anniversary this past year, you know, we had a 1 1/2 year old and my wife was expecting and we had no idea, you know, like it just kind of snuck up on us and I put my phone away for the first time. I was like, I'm just not going to take any calls today. We're just going to go to the beach and just walk, you know, we live 5 miles from the beach, but we never go there, you know, and we had such a pleasant day where we just acted like tourists in South Florida and I just put my phone away for just the day and we just spent time together and it was so it was so wonderful, you know, and I'm and I'm and I'm craving for that. And, you know, and like, you know, I'm thinking the next time I could take a vacation like that because I, I, I really do, you know, I, I think that there's always a give and take and we always take certain things for granted. But I, you know, I think that everyone reaches a point in their lives where it, it could have been earlier or later, But, you know, where, where the quality of what you're doing matters so much more than like, you know, the amount of money you spent to get there or where you're eating or what you're doing or something like that.

1:35:32 You know, 100%, I agree. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So tell me about scuba. Diving real quick before we before we hang up because. Apparently there's a passion of yours and I would love to hear about it. It is and it's. Something my. Wife got sick of me talking about SO. I remember again, so it might have been our way back when on our anniversaries, we used to just try and get away. So this was probably our second or third anniversary. I think we we might have had one kid that we left with my with my mom. And we went out to Catalina Island and spent the weekend up there. And I was walking down the pier and the guy said, hey, you want to try scuba diving?

1:36:12 I said sure. And he said, OK, put this on, put this on, put this on. Breathe through this, let's go. And we jumped in the water. I don't know how I didn't drown. And then, you know, Fast forward. Yeah, Fast forward. And I didn't drown, thankfully. And Fast forward, you know, 30 some years later, I was still talking about, you know, wanting to do that for real and learn how to do it. And we had a couple of tropical trips lined up, kind of what I was just talking about, you know, what we're doing with the family. And she said, will you shut up and just do it already? And I'm like, you know, I'm 60 years old and, you know, can I really do this at 60? And it turns out I could.

1:36:54 And I fell in love with it. Yeah. I absolutely loved it. And so I've really gotten into it. And every opportunity I can, I'm I'm diving, even though I tend to get seasick and I have to deal with all that problems once I'm under the water. And you know, it's, you know, that whole new world and there's a technical challenge to it that I find exciting and, you know, making sure that I get down there and get back up without any drama. And so I've, I've done, I've gotten, you know, wreck certified, you know, diving wrecks down in South Florida. And and you know, I've, I've go. You have to let me know. I would.

1:37:34 Are you a diver? I'd love to. Well, I'm not a diver, but you could teach me. And if not, I'll have you open. Yeah, I could. I could definitely you. Know I could, I can, you know. Influence you? Yeah. So yeah, I love diving down in the Keys. So I've done a lot of diving down there. I dove overseas every time we go on vacation I I find the opportunity to dive. I dove in Turkey and Greece and places like that. I I've dove in Missouri. You wouldn't think there's a place to dive in Missouri, but there is. It's it may be closed now I'm not sure. Called the bond Terre mine. It's an old Civil War LED mine that's got, you know, it's 160 feet deep of crystal Clearwater and and it's like an underground lake. So it's not cave diving because you can't, you can't get to the surface.

1:38:24 But it's a, it's this underground lake now. It's a, it's, you know, an old guy like me, it's rough. You're, you're humping all your gear down, you know, a quarter mile underground to get to the dive platform to then dive this thing and then have to haul everything back out again. But that was a unique and different experience. So have you, have you been to Crater Lake in Oregon or Colorado? I have not, no. Yeah. Do you know what it is? Are you familiar? With it, Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I do, people. Do people dive there? Because that's like. I think the size of a mountain. Yeah, I, I think, I think, I'm sure somebody. Has, but again, you have to get all your gear up there and all that kind of stuff.

1:39:08 So but you could drop them to the surface. I mean, I, I drove, I, I, I took, I used to live in in. Washington and I I drove down to San Francisco once to meet a buddy. We took one to go South. We took five more inland on the way up and then on the way up we took we stopped at Crater Lake and. I'm not. Exaggerating when I say within 45 minutes, the temperature went from being 115�� in desert to to being snow covered mountain tops with, you know, with this beautiful lake that's just in the center of it. But I mean, you can, you can walk right up to the surface of the lake if you wanted. I'm sure, I'm sure there's people that dive it then, you know, and here in Michigan.

1:39:52 We have tremendous wreck diving and, and they're, they're not purpose built, you know, wrecks that were sunk on purpose to be a reef like like in, in Florida, the Spiegel Grove and, and the Dwayne and, and some of these massive wrecks that are down there, up here, they're, you know, 1800 vintage. You know, wooden schooners that went down in the Great Storm of 1913 or something like that. And so there's and it's fresh, cold, fresh water. So they're extremely well preserved. So there's some fantastic wreck diving up here in Michigan and Lake Huron and Lake, MI and others that that I've enjoyed, you know, diving some of those racks. So, yeah, so I that that's a whole another podcast, but I can talk about diving a lot and I just continue to try to get better at it.

1:40:44 Honestly, it's as cool to me as everything else you've spoken to today, You know, I mean, I. Find the whole, I found the whole underwater world just so captivating and so, so mysterious, you know, and you're in a perfect place for it down there. I was. It's so funny because you mentioned, you know. Like a guy you know, an older guy like me. I read I was reading a biography recently. I hope. I hopefully will have the author on the podcast soon, too, the Grateful Dead biography. And Jerry Garcia, you know, who is not known for his health habits, to say the least, you know, became an avid diver in like 40s or 50s. Yeah.

1:41:24 And he and he loved it and. He said the. Same thing and not the same thing, but he said that, you know, once he got underwater because physically he was he was in the worst condition, you know, a person could really put themselves into. But you know, as underwater, he was just like, it's another universe. And even the way that you move and the way that you function and and your interaction with the world is so fundamentally different that oh, yeah, it just feels like a whole new life, like you're just living a new life under there. So, yeah, maybe we'll maybe we'll do Part 2 about scuba diving or in a couple of months and your next book is ready to come out. You can let me know.

1:42:06 I'd love to. But Scott, this is it's so much fun talking to you. This is real pleasure. And, and I'm really excited for to see what your career is going to be, what your writing career is going to become. Thank you very much. Look forward to checking out your book, reading it, and really diving. In and then and then when. I when I get a couple of beers in you one time when you come to South Florida, you'll tell me what's made-up in the story and what's not. I'd be happy to do that. I really appreciate you having me on. I've very much. Enjoyed it. Thank you very much. I hope there's a good podcast experience. You should have many more. I'll talk to you soon. It was great. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Bye. Bye.