#120: Scott Urbach / CIA / Corporate Security/ Thriller Writer

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and we're live.
We're back.

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Scott Erbach, welcome.
I'm so excited to have you here.

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Thank you so much for joining
tonight.

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Thank you very much.
I'm I'm really excited about

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being here.
Yeah, you know, I was thinking

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actually on my on my way home.
I just started school last week

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and I was happy that, you know,
I caught you in one of your

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first few podcasts after the
book came out, because I feel

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like doing a podcast is like
dating, you know, where you

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know, you get you, you talk
about yourself a lot, you tell

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some great stories.
And then after the 10th time or

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20th time or 30th time of
repeating it, you know, you get

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a little tired, a little burnt
out.

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So I hope that hope that all
this stuff that you talk about

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is going to be fresh and
exciting and, and I'm really

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excited to talk with you today.
Yeah, thanks.

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Me too.
So you want to tell me just a

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little bit about your background
and then we're probably going to

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look at everything through the
lens of your new found writing

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career.
But do you want to give me a

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little bit of background about
yourself and we can we can kind

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of work away from there?
Yeah, sure.

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So you've already kind of
alluded to some of it.

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My I've, I've recently embarked
on a what I'm hoping to be a

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career as a as a thriller
author.

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I've I've had my debut novel
released in March of this past

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year.
It's ACIA thriller and which is

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what I know my background is.
I was a former CIA officer many

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years ago and over the last my
career spanned 40 some years.

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I left the agency after a little
while and then it's been in a

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global security executive for a
number of international

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companies ever since.
And so it's been a, it's been a

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long road, an interesting one,
and which has led me to to the

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writing career now.
Yeah, yeah, It's really

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exciting.
My, my famous.

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I had a professor that got me
into writing with the first

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class that I went to.
And the thing that he said was

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every great writer has at least
50 to 100 things they love more

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than writing because otherwise
you have nothing good to write

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about, you know, and, and at
life, you're going to, in order

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to, if you want to really be a
great writer, in order to really

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get there, you have to be
accumulating experiences to be

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able to have something to write
about.

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Let your imagination work, let
history work, let your

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experiences happen.
And then try, and then you find

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a way to capture it and put it
all into words.

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So I, I think that you're, that
it sounds like the time is ripe

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for, you know, for a writing
career based on that kind of

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background.
Well, yeah.

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And I think he, I think he was
spot on with all of those

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comments.
Obviously, they also say, you

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know, write what you know and
write what you love and write

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what you like to read.
I'm a voracious reader, so I

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read across multiple genres, But
I, I, I know I'd be a lousy

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romance writer.
I, I think I'm much, I'm much

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better at writing, you know,
mystery, thriller, action,

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adventure type books.
Have you always have you always

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loved reading and you ever have
you ever have you always had a

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desire to write?
I've, I've always loved reading

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and I'm going to date myself
here, but you know, I, I go all

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the way back to the Louis Lamour
western novels, you know, back

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in the 60s and 70s and you know,
James Harriet and then the All

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things bright and beautiful
books that he wrote.

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He was an, an English author and
you know, then all all the way

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up.
You know, of course, I, as you

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would expect with my background,
I was drawn to Ian Fleming then

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and the James Bond series.
Now those predated me.

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Those are from the 50s, but I've
read, I've read all of those all

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the way up to the current day.
You know, there's a number of

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modern authors that I, I follow,
you know, religiously every time

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a book comes out, I'm, I'm, I'm
the type of reader that every

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author dreams about.
You get me hooked on a series.

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I'll read through the entire
thing.

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So it's, I think in 2023 I gave
myself a goal of reading 100

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books on my Kindle and I think I
topped out at 120 or so.

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That was, that was everything
from the classics, you know, Old

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Man in the Sea or Dracula, you
know, Gone with the Wind and

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then all the way up to, you
know, modern genre specific

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action adventure type type
novel.

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So, so I've always been, you
know, very keen on reading and

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writing.
You know, I like all of us.

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You mentioned being in school.
I took creative writing classes

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and things like that, you know,
in school, but really never had

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the time to sit down and
actually, you know, put pen to

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paper and, and really write a
book.

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And then recently in in 2024, I
decided it was time to finally

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do that.
And that's what's led me to to

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it today.
OK, awesome.

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That's a, that's a spectacular
segue.

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And it's really, and it's, it's
funny because I have a really, I

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personally have a very difficult
time finding new books.

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I, I, I have adept, I, I judge
books based on their cover.

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You know, I'm one of those
people.

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And I try and I, and it drives
me crazy to say because I like

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to be open minded, but I really,
really need to be prompted to

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really push my way into, into a
new book.

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But one thing that I did notice
that I think is really

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interesting.
Maybe you've noticed just from

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what you've read that there are
authors that can really just

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like hump out writing whole
books.

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Like like it's, I mean it's a
method, you know, and like they

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can, they can write 10/15/20
books.

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And, you know, you, whether you
have the famous or the famous

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Alex Ryder series or Colleen
Hoover, which my wife and my

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sister-in-law are, you know,
love reading like they have a

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formula and a process and they
just keep on turning out books.

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Do you, did you pick up on any
kind of pattern or any kind of,

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you know, while you're reading
any kind of formal structure or

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pattern that these kind of
writers had?

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Well, yeah, I mean, in my genre
and others, you really want to

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if you're going to have any type
of commercial success and, and

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understand there are two paths
to publishing nowadays.

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Back in the day there was one
pass.

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It's called trad publishing or
traditional publishing where you

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would write your manuscript, you
would shop it to an agent or,

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you know, hundreds of agents and
receive hundreds of rejections

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before somebody finally picked
you up.

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Who would then take it and sell
it to what are now, I think the,

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they're called the big 5
publishing houses who would

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then, you know, mess with it and
edit it and do all kinds of

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things for a year or more before
it finally gets published.

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Then, you know, in the, you
know, early 2000s, you know,

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2015, maybe 10/15/20 years ago
with the advent of Amazon, the

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indie publishing world really
went from what was once looked

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down upon.
It was called vanity press.

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And you would pay a lot of money
and you know, a book would be

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printed for you and have
thousands of copies stuck in

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your garage somewhere.
Now, now it's not like that

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anymore.
The, the indie author indie

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author world is a vibrant
community of really talented

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writers who are writing their
books, publishing their books

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themselves, marketing the books
themselves and, and having great

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success.
Honestly, I would say 90 at this

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point, 95% of the books I read
are from indie authors that I

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can as, as you said, that I can
search online to find a book

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that I'm interested in.
And that, and that process

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actually is what led me to, to
actually writing the book.

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Because as I mentioned when I
went on that, you know, goal of

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reading 100 books, I'd also
about that same time gotten into

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scuba diving.
It was something I've always

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wanted to do.
So, you know, so I started

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querying Amazon, you know,
about, you know, scuba diving

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related fiction novels and scuba
diving adventure stories, which

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led me into this entire sub
genre that I didn't even know

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existed.
There's actually a group, and

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I've become friendly with some
of the authors in it called the

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Tropical Authors group that
have, there's about 50 of these

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guys that have men and women
that have their books that are

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all kind of themed around, you
know, action and adventure and

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sea stories and scuba diving.
And so I think the first one I

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came across was Sharon Ward and
her Finn Fleming stories, which

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led me to a tremendous guy,
Nicholas Harvey and his AJ

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Bailey dive mystery stories.
And then there's some cross

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pollination between these
various authors where 1

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character from one book will
show up in another book.

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That led me down to other
authors in reading their books,

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ultimately to A to a guy by name
of Wayne Stennett, who's kind of

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the godfather, the grandfather
of this tropical authors group.

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And he's got to your point, I
think he has he just published

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his 30 30th book in in one
specific.

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It's called the Jesse McDermott
series.

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He, you know, he has thirty of
those now.

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He's been doing it for many
years.

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He probably puts out several a
year.

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But then he also has some non
fiction books, one of which was

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called, it was called Blue
collar to no caller.

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And you know, his journey to
becoming a writer.

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He's a former Marine boat
captain, a truck driver.

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And he explained how, you know,
one day he decided to sit down

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and start writing stories and
now it's his full time job.

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And that's something that
resonated with me and said, you

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know, that's something that I
think I can do.

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And it goes back to my my family
had and my kids have been after

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me for literally decades to to
write a book now.

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They they were envisioning me
writing a memoir of some sort of

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my my times, my time in the
agency, which I was never going

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to do, but but this gave me
because.

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It was it was it was impractical
or because it.

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Was, well, because, you know, I
wasn't going to talk.

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You know what?
What I did in the agency was

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exciting and important and fun
work, but it's not something

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that, you know, that I would
write a memoir about.

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That's just not who I am.
But I could write a novel about

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what I did, loosely based on me
and my career, very loosely

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based on me and my career.
And so that's what I decided to

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do.
And I didn't tell anyone I was

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doing it.
And and again, to your point

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about the old saying you can't
judge a book by its cover, well,

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you really have to nowadays.
And one of the first things they

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drill into you if you listen to
other podcasts about writing or

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if you, you know, read articles
about it is, you know, two

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things you immediately need to
have.

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You have to have a a good title
that fits your genre and a good

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professionally made cover that
also fits your genre.

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That because, you know, as
people are are going through

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Amazon or wherever they're
looking for a book, even if

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they're at a bookstore, you
know, you got about a second and

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a half to grab their attention
for for it to really, really

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scream.
This is their genre.

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So, you know, my buckets title
is admit nothing.

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The cover is the typical, you
know, thriller genre cover, a

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man, you know, running towards
trouble, gun in his hand, bright

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colors, etcetera, etcetera.
So you know, right away it's a

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thriller novel.
No one's going to, you know, no

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one's going to look at it and
assume it's a romance or a

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fantasy or something like that.
Now, if you, if you're writing a

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romance and a fantasy, you want
your, you want everything to

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look different, you know, to
have the, the Dragons or the the

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flames or the flowers or
whatever the case may be on your

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book.
So, so that's essentially.

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Marketing, right?
Well, that's the, it's the very

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first step of marketing, right?
It's it's.

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Psychological marketing because
you're trying to capture

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someone's eyes and all their
attention and and stand out at

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the same time, you know?
100%.

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Hundreds of other or dozens of
others in the same in the.

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Same, right?
So.

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So back to your question of is
there a formula?

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I believe, and again, I'm very
early on this journey, but the

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formula should be right.
You know, do everything right

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00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:20,000
first.
And, and obviously the very

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first thing you have to do is
write a good book, right?

224
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,440
You can't, you know, no matter
how good your cover is and your

225
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,040
title is, if you know, after the
first couple pages, people think

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00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,400
it's garbage and it clearly is.
And then you're not going to

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00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,840
generate any, any following.
But you know, you write a good

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00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:38,280
book.
You.

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00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,920
I'm sorry real quickly just to
just to ask to elaborate because

230
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,200
I want you to elaborate on this
direction where you're heading

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00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,920
down, if you don't mind.
But you know, people have a real

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great concept a lot of times.
What makes a good movie?

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00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:50,880
Do you have a concept in
yourself?

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00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,880
What makes a good book or what
are you looking for when you're

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00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,160
when you're picking up a book?
And so again, yeah, in my genre,

236
00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,040
yeah, you need to have a
compelling, A compelling story.

237
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,400
But more importantly, in my, in
my belief, A compelling

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00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:09,960
characters, you know, your, your
protagonist has to be, you know,

239
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,720
believable.
I strongly believe the

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00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,760
protagonist has to be flawed.
You know, not if, if your

241
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,920
protagonist was Superman and did
everything absolutely right

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00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,400
every time, never had conflict,
never had stress in his or her

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00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,800
life.
That's just not believable.

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00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,960
So you, you want a compelling
story with good, solid

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00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:38,240
characters that are relatable,
that have flaws of some sort in

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00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,880
my genre, you need to have some
action, some adventure, some

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00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:48,160
plot twist that, that you know
at the end or midway through.

248
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,520
So, so there's, there's those
type of steps that you want to

249
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,760
have and, and you know it.
If you if you know what you like

250
00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:02,480
to read you you understand what
what good writing is in that

251
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,360
genre and so.
You recognize the patterns

252
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:07,920
there?
Yeah, the patterns.

253
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,520
That are familiar.
There are certain patterns and

254
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,760
you don't want it.
It's not like you know it's

255
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,680
completely wrote and you and
there's no creativity in it

256
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,280
because there absolutely is
within certain constructs.

257
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:25,640
You can do certain things with
your story and you know, as

258
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,440
you're writing through, I like
to leave a little mini

259
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,840
cliffhanger or drama at the end
of every chapter because you

260
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,600
want them to turn the page.
It could be two in the morning

261
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,920
and you you end a chapter with a
little zinger.

262
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,720
It's like, oh man, I I really
need to read the next page to

263
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,640
see what happens next.
And then then you do all of that

264
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,160
in your first book.
And then ideally, if you're

265
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,920
writing, you know, you could,
you could make a living at this.

266
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:57,120
I I understand with, with a
series of standalone books, but

267
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,040
I think it's it for me, it's
going to be a more interesting

268
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:06,120
journey to have a continuing
series of the same characters,

269
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,200
you know, put in different
situations that are somewhat

270
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,760
related.
Often that could lead to a

271
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,800
spinoff series with if one
character really takes off and

272
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,400
gets a lot of appreciation by
your fan base.

273
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,680
So in the old saying is nothing
sells your first book better

274
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,880
than writing your second book.
So you have a good, a good,

275
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,920
solid first book in the series,
followed by a, you know, a good

276
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,440
second book, then to the third
and then to a fourth.

277
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,640
And so my goal right now and,
and I'm just, I'm hoping to

278
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,920
release book 2 in the next
couple of months.

279
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,000
So my goal is to, you know,
ideally write 2 books a year.

280
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,880
It might be nice to squeeze a
third one in there.

281
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,680
But if I could write 2 books a
year, market them properly,

282
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,480
start, you know, slowly building
up a readership, I'd be very,

283
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:09,680
I'd be very happy with that.
And you know, where I was going

284
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,319
with earlier about how I decided
to, to write this and to the

285
00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:16,920
point I was getting to on the
cover and the title, I told no

286
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,000
one in my family I was doing it.
It was a little secret project

287
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:24,280
of mine that I was doing, you
know, upstairs in, in my study

288
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:29,560
and, and writing the book.
And then the way I kind of

289
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,200
willed it, manifested it into
existence is rather than just

290
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,600
print out on computer paper the
manuscript and hand it to my

291
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,360
family.
I actually, you know, had it

292
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:45,440
properly formatted, sent it off
to I think Barnes and Noble

293
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,560
Press had them with.
And I'd hired a cover artist and

294
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,440
all that.
Had it professionally printed up

295
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,280
like a book with the cover
looked like, looked like you'd

296
00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,520
picked it up off the shelves and
Barnes and Noble.

297
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,760
And, and that's what I, you
know, surprised the family with

298
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,920
as my first draft.
And then they became my beta

299
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,880
readers and my, you know, my
first set of reviews to give me

300
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,160
feedback as I then.
And that manuscript at that time

301
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,360
had was about 60,000 word, yeah,
60,000 words.

302
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,000
And by the time I incorporated
all my changes and and feature

303
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,600
edits, it landed about 80,000
words when I finally published

304
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,840
it.
Wow, you added.

305
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,880
I know a lot of for a lot of
writers their their problem is

306
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,280
actually cutting away words, not
having to add more.

307
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,160
Yeah, and exactly.
And and, you know, there's

308
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,880
probably a lot of puts and takes
there because I probably, you

309
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,360
know, I started with, like I
said, if I was, you know,

310
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,360
editing at 60,000 words, I
probably delete, deleted 20,000

311
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:50,920
words and then wrote 40,000
back, you know, so it was a lot,

312
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,760
it was a lot of back and forth
as I was, you know, editing and

313
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,600
taking out things that just
didn't make sense, putting in

314
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,040
new things.
It eventually got to the point

315
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,720
where I just had to stop because
I would find myself waking up in

316
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,160
the middle of the night
thinking, oh, you know what?

317
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,600
I could have, I could have said
that differently on that one

318
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,160
sentence, then gone and changed
that sentence, which then led me

319
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,480
into rewriting that entire
chapter.

320
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,560
You know, So eventually I had to
say, OK, it's good, it's ready

321
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,960
to go and let's put it out there
in the world and see what, you

322
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,680
know, what everyone else thinks.
Yeah, I don't think as an author

323
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,360
or as an artist anyone ever
really feels 100% ready.

324
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,520
But I think at a certain point
everyone understands that it's

325
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,000
got to go out there, you know,
whether you like it or not.

326
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:43,040
But what I think is also very
interesting about what you're

327
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,680
describing is, you know, it's
actually funny because I'm very

328
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,800
into the entertainment industry
as a whole.

329
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,480
You can hear me.
OK, so I'm sorry about that.

330
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,160
What I was saying was I'm a huge
fan of the entertainment

331
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:02,200
industry as a whole and and one
of the thing and the business

332
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,680
behind it as well.
You know, and for studios, it's

333
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:11,320
always easier to create a sequel
than it is an original because

334
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:14,080
and and sequels almost
inevitably make more money than

335
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,840
the originals do.
But the sequels are almost also

336
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,600
inevitably get a worse reception
with the audience.

337
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,760
Right.
And because, and by the way, I

338
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:27,840
really think, you know, just
going back to what you're

339
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,120
talking about, about your method
of writing and your characters

340
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:36,240
and everything like that, you
know, spin offs are not bad, are

341
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,360
actually I think awesome.
I think they're phenomenal.

342
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,200
I I think that a good series is
phenomenal.

343
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,440
And I think that one of the
hardest things to do is convince

344
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,280
other people of an original
story that they never heard of

345
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,160
before.
And so I would imagine that the

346
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,480
hardest book to write is
probably the first because you

347
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,640
have to convince the audience of
the book's good enough.

348
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:58,920
And then the challenge is
keeping up the quality with that

349
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,800
first one so that it doesn't let
your audience down and that you

350
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,760
don't kind of cheapen the brand
of the character.

351
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,000
I mean, you have that kind of
story.

352
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,840
You know, you have that kind of
story that happens with Marvel

353
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,880
where Disney talks about all the
time how how their mistake

354
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,280
recently was making Marvel feel
like homework.

355
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,240
Like you had to like keep up
with all this stuff and it was

356
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,120
exhausting, you know, fatigue
and new materials coming out all

357
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:23,200
the time.
And how do you keep track of the

358
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,680
TV shows or the movies or the
straight to streaming?

359
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,440
You know, at a certain point,
people don't want to do

360
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,640
homework.
They just want, you know, they

361
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,880
just want to be able to enjoy.
And I think that what's fun

362
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,960
about this little world that
you're playing with is that you

363
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,680
can kind of gauge the audience
response if you can.

364
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,600
I don't know if there's a way
you can as a writer and you can

365
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,920
tell me whether that's your you
know, what, what your experience

366
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,920
is with that.
But you know, and then kind of

367
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,160
jump on a character or do you
feel yourself like, hey, I'm in

368
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,440
a real flow with particular
characters And I think that

369
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,120
these characters are rich for
more stories and more potential.

370
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,600
Well, again, you know, being
early at it.

371
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,200
But first of all, let me step
back.

372
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,360
Your your Marvel analogy is
outstanding because I have this

373
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,000
ongoing thing with my wife.
She'll want to watch a Marvel

374
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,400
movie.
And I said, look, I'll watch a

375
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,120
single superhero movie where
there's one superhero and that's

376
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:19,920
it preferably the origin story
that superhero.

377
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,680
But when there's 37 different
Marvel characters and, or, or DC

378
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,800
characters, whatever, whichever
1 is which.

379
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,280
And you know, there's there's
this talking raccoon guy over

380
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,040
here and there's, you know, Thor
over here doing something else

381
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,440
and Superman and Batman and
everyone mixed together.

382
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,840
That's, you know, that is
homework for me and I can't go

383
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,640
down that route.
So, but to your point on, you

384
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:49,160
know, your, your character
journey, I think you know that

385
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:54,640
there's, there's the ability and
as evident by a lot of these

386
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,320
authors I read that have, you
know, 1520 thirty books in their

387
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,880
series.
There's plenty of room for for

388
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:07,720
the characters to continue with
various types of, of adventures

389
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,800
or, or incidents that they get
into and have to get their way

390
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,840
out of.
And there's a lot of times

391
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,600
there's a common thread.
I really enjoy the the little

392
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,200
back story, common threads that
weave through a series where,

393
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,720
you know, somebody might be
talking about a character, you

394
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,240
know, a a minor character of a
family member of something in

395
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,720
book 1 and then is referred back
to in book 3.

396
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,320
And then you see in book 5, you
know, the the daughter's now

397
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:35,880
getting married or something
like that.

398
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:41,440
And I'm so I really like those
type of of continuity plays

399
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,360
through.
And I like it when when there's

400
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,280
crossover with with another,
let's say.

401
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,160
And Nick Harvey's a great
example.

402
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,000
His AJ Bailey series start, you
know, started with it's all

403
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,080
focused around this woman who's
a dive instructor in the Cayman

404
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,800
Islands.
And then that round book 3 or 4

405
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:08,640
or something like that, a plot
line circled around a teenage

406
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,760
runaway from Norway who was in
the Cayman Islands who ended up

407
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,080
in in a sex trafficking
situation.

408
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,160
You know, she ends up, you know,
surviving it.

409
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:24,800
And then in the next story, she
she's a bigger character.

410
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,000
And then he spun her off.
It's called the Norris Summer

411
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,400
series.
He spun her off into her own

412
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:35,200
series and then but then refers
back as AJ shows up in her in

413
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,560
her books.
And so I, I like that type of

414
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:45,160
interplay as in, and I think
for, for as an author that

415
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,120
excites me about being able to,
to expand that world, much like,

416
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:56,200
I guess a fantasy author, you
know, gets likes and enjoys, you

417
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,680
know, world building some new
world.

418
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,320
I'm not world building, but I'm
world building around, you know,

419
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:07,600
the characters in, in my book
who, you know, quite frankly, I

420
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,160
mentioned, you know, the family
pushing me to do this.

421
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,000
Almost everyone in my family is
a character in the book, some of

422
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:20,600
some of them in some of them in
true name and, and using their

423
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:27,880
background as, as plot points.
And so it's been, you know, it's

424
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,960
a kick for them to, to do it.
It's just littered with Easter

425
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,720
eggs.
That was for them to, to find.

426
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,240
You know, the, there's a whole
storyline.

427
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,720
The protagonist talks about his,
his wife and their first date

428
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,240
and where they got married and
how they first met and the, you

429
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,600
know, the 1st and all of that is
absolutely true between, you

430
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,440
know, because my wife was CIA
also.

431
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,440
So she and I met on the 7th
floor of CIA headquarters out in

432
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,360
front of the director suite.
And so I tell that story in the

433
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:01,280
book from the viewpoint of the
protagonist.

434
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,160
But everything he talks about
there really happened in real

435
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,480
life.
And, you know, so it's something

436
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,320
for the, the kids to see and,
you know, quite frankly laugh

437
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,800
about now.
But then I put them, I put them

438
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,320
in, you know, their characters
in the book now.

439
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,080
Now what they have to do is stay
on my good side.

440
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,520
Otherwise I'll kill them off in
the book.

441
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,560
But but so so far they.
You sound like David Chase, the

442
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,280
author of The Sopranos.
The.

443
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,880
Right creator.
Of The Sopranos, apparently he

444
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,880
was.
Apparently he was infamous for

445
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,280
if you pissed him off, he would
just have your character whacked

446
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,560
you'd.
Come back and you come back and.

447
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,200
You read the script to the next.
Episode and you're gone and.

448
00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:40,280
You were killed.
Off.

449
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:41,280
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, no, I did.

450
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,840
Well, I've actually, I've had
friends now that are that read

451
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,360
the first book and now writing
me and say, hey, will you put me

452
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:50,840
in the second book?
And I said, yeah, but I can't

453
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:51,760
guarantee you can make it
through it.

454
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,840
Oh, that's cool.
You know, use my name and, you

455
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,320
know, see what happens.
And so two of them are not going

456
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:58,480
to make it out of the second
book.

457
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,240
I know that much.
So.

458
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:03,920
I see when they fall on your
list.

459
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:05,760
Of buddies, yeah, they're good
guys.

460
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,960
But so you know, 11 challenge
that we haven't touched on when

461
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,840
we talk about the cadence of
writing the book and how I'm

462
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,000
trying to get out a couple of
year is I have a unique

463
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,760
situation and commitment that I
have to meet when I write a

464
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,520
book.
Now, if I'm writing a cookbook,

465
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,760
this isn't a problem.
But if I'm writing anything

466
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,480
that's CIA related, I'm still
bound by my secrecy agreement

467
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:38,640
that I signed, let me see, 41
years ago day.

468
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,040
After tomorrow it'll be 41 years
since I since I signed this

469
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,120
piece of paper.
So I'm bound to it for life.

470
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:48,520
The secrecy agreement, which
states that anything I write,

471
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:53,200
again, cookbooks aside, that has
anything related at all to the

472
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,880
Ciai have to submit the
manuscript for review and

473
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:02,600
approval by what's called the
CIA Pre Publication

474
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,960
Classification Review Board.
So, and I did that with book 1.

475
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:12,040
I sent them the manuscript.
Now understanding that I was not

476
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,720
never and I never would
intentionally divulge any true

477
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,240
classified information.
And but their role is to make

478
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,120
sure that I didn't that I didn't
even unintentionally do it.

479
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:28,200
And so they back to you.
It was less so than I actually

480
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,000
thought it was about, it was
about a month I think it took

481
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,120
for them to get back to me with
their redactions.

482
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:40,560
And they had some, and you know,
some is some of the redactions

483
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:46,160
were simply because again, I've
been out of the agency I was in

484
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,080
for a little over 10 years.
So I've been out for 30.

485
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,520
And I thought, you know, it was
something that I've written and

486
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,680
I wrote the name of a building
and I thought that they didn't

487
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,040
use that building anymore.
And apparently I was wrong

488
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,520
because they made me redact that
name.

489
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,600
So I changed it.
I changed the name of the

490
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,720
building.
And then they, they asked me to

491
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,120
redact.
They must have pulled my file

492
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,480
and they asked me to redact some
information.

493
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,280
The, the, the protagonist
mentions he worked in XYZ field

494
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,600
office and it was the field
office I worked in.

495
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,120
And they, they asked me to
redact that.

496
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,840
So I changed the name of the
field office and then do they?

497
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,880
Tell you Do they tell you
specific reasons why redactions

498
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,880
have to?
Happen No, they, they didn't

499
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,360
tell me.
They just said it was redacted.

500
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,640
It had it had to be be removed.
They they actually asked me to

501
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,520
redact something that I
completely made-up.

502
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,200
I, I, I referenced, I referenced
a situation where someone was

503
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,160
standing up at a certain point
and I, I said there was a, a, a

504
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,160
certain type of weapon, you
know, I in the knee well of that

505
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,520
desk, which was completely
made-up.

506
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,040
And they made me redact that,
which made me think, OK, I've

507
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,040
been out 30 years.
Maybe that weapon is, is now in

508
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,360
the meanwhile of that desk.
So maybe I just stumbled upon

509
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,840
something that, that they asked
me to.

510
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,640
So I, I changed that.
So obviously I'm going to do

511
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,320
anything that they ask me now,
you know, I'm very clear and

512
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,920
they are very clear that the
fact that they have now give me

513
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,320
the redactions, I make the
changes and I published the

514
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,640
book.
In no way are they endorsing the

515
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,400
book, you know, recommending the
book or anything like that.

516
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,160
They're just saying that it went
through the process and I was

517
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,880
cleared to and I was cleared to
publish it.

518
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:43,120
And so I have to do that now for
every, you know, every volume

519
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,560
that comes out next.
And matter of fact, at the end

520
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,880
of our discussion today, I'm
going to go hit send and send

521
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,280
the the manuscript for Book 2
off to them for their review.

522
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,080
No way.
It's ready.

523
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,480
It's ready for them to review.
It is not ready to publish, but

524
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,800
it's ready for them to review.
So, you know, I'll send it to

525
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,840
them and it doesn't have to go
back and forth multiple times

526
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,400
unless I were to make really
substantive changes.

527
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,480
So as long as I do the
redactions that they say I need

528
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,160
to redact and I'm.
I'm, I'm relatively certain

529
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,520
they'll be even fewer in this
book than in the first one,

530
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,480
because the first one I was
taking great pains to, to talk

531
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,320
about, you know, inner workings
of the agency and, and paint a

532
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,440
picture, you know, talking about
the exterior of the building and

533
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,840
the Nathan Hale statue outside
of the main headquarters in the

534
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,920
lobby.
And then the, the, the seal, the

535
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,400
great seal, you know, on the, on
the granite floor of the lobby,

536
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,680
the memorial, the stars carved
in the memorial wall.

537
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,520
The, you know, what's in the CIA
museum, you know, the greatest

538
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,680
collection of espionage related
artifacts in the world that the

539
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,680
vast majority of people will
never see.

540
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,600
I talked about certain things in
there and you know, how the, how

541
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,640
the, you know, the floors are
laid out and things like that.

542
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,800
So I, I was putting a lot of
detail in the first book.

543
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,640
Again, a lot of it, you know,
take a lot.

544
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,120
Of that detail.
Out No, no, they didn't make me

545
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,040
take.
They didn't make me take hardly

546
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,880
any of that detail out.
It was more they're really

547
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,320
worried about what we call
sources and methods, right?

548
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,560
They're worried about, you know,
either inadvertently talking

549
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,920
about something that still
remains classified or talking

550
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,040
about, you know, well, you know,
the sources and methods, you

551
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,160
know, techniques that that they
don't want, you know, put out

552
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:40,840
there.
So.

553
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,360
So yeah, the, the, you know,
what color the walls were and

554
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:46,040
all that.
They weren't.

555
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:47,400
They weren't too worried about
that.

556
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,360
Right, right, right.
But something that could be a

557
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,520
little bit more used to
understand the workings of or

558
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,680
day-to-day.
Right if.

559
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:57,160
Things could be more concerned
about.

560
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:03,720
And, and the plot line also goes
back to to you can almost call

561
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:09,360
it historical fiction because I
used real incidences that

562
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:15,240
happened when I was there
involving a famous KGB defector

563
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,880
who defected to the agency and
then re defected months later.

564
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,800
And that's a major plot line in
the book.

565
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,920
So I was used, I used his real
name and real facts about that

566
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,800
case, you know.
No, it's not it That story

567
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,360
itself is.
Yeah.

568
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,280
The guy's name was Vitaly
Yurchenko.

569
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:42,240
He was a K GB Colonel that
defected in 1984.

570
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,200
Five, I think.
So the middle of the Cold War.

571
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,480
Yeah, the middle of the Cold
War.

572
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:54,520
And he, he defected in, I think
he was stationed in Berlin.

573
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:55,760
I have to go back and read my
book now.

574
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:02,360
He's stationed in Berlin and
defected to the agency.

575
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:09,080
We scooped him up, got him back
to the US, debriefed him at, you

576
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,760
know, a facility and then moved
him around.

577
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,639
There's a whole bunch of moving
parts around him.

578
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:22,000
And what eventually happened is
he the members of the office

579
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,760
security, which is which I
worked in, had him out in

580
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,360
Georgetown at a, at a specific
restaurant.

581
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,199
And I named the restaurant
doesn't exist anymore, but I

582
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:35,280
named the restaurant and it's
you know, it's common knowledge

583
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,760
where it happened and the
location.

584
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,800
There's actually a plaque on the
wall of the building on on

585
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,480
Wisconsin Ave.
I think where it happened.

586
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,360
And and what happened is he, you
know, he has to go to the

587
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,920
bathroom.
Something came back, told the

588
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,800
rookie CIA security officer that
was with him.

589
00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:58,120
Are you going to shoot me if I
walk away?

590
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,480
He said no.
And he said, I'm sorry, I'm

591
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:02,880
doing this to you.
And he turned around and walked

592
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,360
away and walked out.
And then, you know, chaos

593
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,400
ensued.
They couldn't find him until a

594
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,240
day or two later, he showed up
at a press conference at the

595
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:15,440
Soviet embassy.
So then the big the big story

596
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,520
was, was he a double agent?
Was he sent there on purpose?

597
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,320
Was he sending all of that I
work into the book.

598
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:30,960
So I used a lot of true, you
know, you know, events and weave

599
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:32,480
that into the storyline of the
book.

600
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,640
How much, how much does or how
much are you guys are you

601
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,000
trained in?
And I guess this applies for

602
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,120
both CIA and your security job.
How much are you trained in

603
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,320
psychology and understanding
people and dealing with people

604
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,960
when it comes to your type, when
it comes to security, type of

605
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,240
positions?
So, well, it, it depends on your

606
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,880
role in the agency.
You know, obviously there, there

607
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,400
are certain roles where a case
officer, for example, which I

608
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,000
was not in the director of
operations, a case officer is

609
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,080
what the, you know, in the
vernacular, people call them a

610
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,240
spy, the ones that work overseas
and their job is to convince

611
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,160
other people to spy for them
against their country, right.

612
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,840
So they, they are trained very
heavily on how to manipulate

613
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,400
people and read people and do
certain things along those

614
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:32,160
lines.
In my world in security as an

615
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,080
investigator, we are trained in
certain investigator techniques,

616
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,080
investigation techniques, and in
certain elicitation techniques

617
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,440
and how to interview somebody
and elicit the information we

618
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:50,480
want, how to gain their trust
and how to, you know, work, work

619
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,840
a case in a specific way towards
a logical conclusion while

620
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,000
gaining, you know, all the facts
that you need to gain.

621
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:03,960
And, you know, the interview
process is a big part of that.

622
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,440
So there's a lot of psychology
built around that and techniques

623
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,560
that that we use.
And that was both in the agency.

624
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,640
And then, you know, as my, my
global security career

625
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,080
progressed, you use the same
type of things when you're

626
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:22,160
investigating a theft or any
type of threat or investigation

627
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,880
that that you have to do for
corporate entities.

628
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,120
It's the exact same tools and
skill sets I would have used

629
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:31,600
during my agency days.
I see.

630
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,400
So your skill set was able to
carry over pretty easily from

631
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,160
the public sector to the, I
guess, the corporate, I guess.

632
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,040
From the to.
The to the corporate sector.

633
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,240
Yeah, 100%.
I, I did.

634
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,360
And because I, I always worked
in large global international

635
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,240
companies, it, it directly
translated, you know, I, I

636
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:55,280
think, I'm not exactly sure
where I am right now.

637
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,960
I've lost count, but I've
probably visited, worked in 70

638
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:06,120
countries or more, you know,
across every continent pretty

639
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:06,680
much.
So.

640
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,840
So I've done a lot of
international work just like I

641
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,920
did in the agency for these
global companies.

642
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,720
Again, you know, with all the
same type of issues, whether

643
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:25,680
it's physical security or
investigations or threat

644
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,360
analysis.
You know, I always would have a

645
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,320
intelligence function of some
sort with my background.

646
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,000
You know, I would always build
an intelligence function in

647
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,720
every one of the corporate jobs.
I had to have a team of analysts

648
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:42,120
that are looking at threats
globally and how they might

649
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,880
affect either the company
itself, our personnel, our

650
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,800
assets, our Tier 1 suppliers,
etcetera, etcetera.

651
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:52,560
Right.
And that actually that's going

652
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:57,840
to get me I think to kind of the
next, I guess transition

653
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,840
transitional phase.
I want I'm going to come back to

654
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,520
the book and the writing for
sure.

655
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:09,720
But first of all, if there are
very similar skill sets that

656
00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:14,200
carry over from that CIA sector
to the corporate sector, is

657
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,880
there is there a relationship
between the two?

658
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,320
Did you continue to have some
kind of relationship, You know,

659
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,640
once you're kind of working
corporate, big company, private

660
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,960
security abroad, I imagine you'd
have to work with kind of

661
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,040
American authorities if it's
going to be an American based

662
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,920
company, right?
Yes, certainly, you know, we

663
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,400
would have relationships with
all manner of federal agencies,

664
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,400
whether it's the the FBI or
immigration or, you know,

665
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,960
Marshall Service or you, you
name it.

666
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,240
You always wanted to maintain,
you know, relationships

667
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,200
throughout, you know, various
government entities.

668
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,960
I had a unique relationship with
the agency, obviously because of

669
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,160
my background.
And occasionally they'd be

670
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,400
interested.
And this is not classified.

671
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:04,840
There's a entire function of the
agency whose job it is to, you

672
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:09,400
know, interface with
corporations and, you know, ask

673
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,640
questions.
And, you know, if, if there are,

674
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,280
you know, employees that are
travelling to certain areas,

675
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,160
maybe going to a conference or
something like that, the the

676
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,680
agency might want to interview
those people when they come

677
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,360
back.
It's all you know, you know.

678
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,600
Understood declared above board.
There's nothing clandestine

679
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,240
about it.
So I would have those type of

680
00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:37,680
relationships and then 11
situation popped up where I had

681
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:39,960
I was I was in the private
industry.

682
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,160
I was getting ready to make a
trip to Moscow.

683
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,280
First time I I was going to
Moscow I what that was a denied

684
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,160
area when I was in the agency.
I couldn't go there then, but I

685
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:56,040
was going as part No, no, just,
you know, it's a deny.

686
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,160
It was a denied area.
So there had to been of a

687
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,040
mission critical reason for me
to have been going to Moscow.

688
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,280
I wouldn't I wouldn't have gone
there on vacation or something

689
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:10,640
like that.
So, but I was out of the agency

690
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:15,080
and I was in private industry
and I had, you know, a corporate

691
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,200
reason to go.
I had mentioned it to one of my

692
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,640
buddies that was still in.
And then I don't know, it was

693
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:27,080
probably a week or two before I
was leaving.

694
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:32,040
I got a call from the chief of
station in New York asking to

695
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:33,840
meet with me.
And I said sure.

696
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,600
And I went and met with him and
he, he told me, he said, I

697
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,600
understand you're going to, to
Moscow.

698
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,520
And I, I, I had to put the
pieces together.

699
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,760
How did he know?
And I, I said, oh, my buddy must

700
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,320
have told him somehow it gotten
through the system.

701
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,000
And he said, we highly recommend
you don't go.

702
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,680
And I said, OK, give me a
reason.

703
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,480
He said, well, it is a little
bit convoluted story, but

704
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:02,320
apparently what happened is the
FBI had wrapped up a retired,

705
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:09,720
this is back of the days of KGB,
a retired KGB officer and the

706
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:13,320
rush the Soviets, I think it's
still at the time were not happy

707
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,760
about it because this guy was
out of the game and he got

708
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,560
arrested.
And the threat was that they

709
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:24,160
were going to arrest the next
former CIA guy that came in the

710
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,840
country.
And apparently that apparently

711
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,920
that was going to be me.
So, you know, as soon as they

712
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,160
told me that, I said no problem.
I have no interest in seeing the

713
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,600
inside of Lubianca prison.
I'm good.

714
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,040
I and I said I'm not going and
it's like I postponed the trip.

715
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,760
And then 6-8 months later,
something like that, I got a

716
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,400
call saying, OK, we're good to
go.

717
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:50,280
It's been resolved, you can go.
And so eventually I ended up

718
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,520
going like I think I visited
twice, something like that.

719
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:59,960
Moscow, But yeah, yeah.
So but that was a it, it was, it

720
00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:03,280
was amazing.
It was, it was AI went twice.

721
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,400
I went once in the dead of
winter, which I wouldn't

722
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,640
recommend.
It was cold.

723
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,000
Everything you hear about, about
the, you know, the, the freezing

724
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,240
cold and what the, what happened
in World War 2 and all that kind

725
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:16,440
of stuff, you know, I can see
it.

726
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,160
Then I went one time in the
spring and it was beautiful And,

727
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:25,120
and it, you know, the, the
Soviet Union had fallen at that

728
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,360
point.
And there was, you know, this

729
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:32,160
weird mix of, of capitalism
trying to start and a lot of

730
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,760
weird things going on.
But yeah, it was a great

731
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,760
experience.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

732
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:44,640
I, I, I've been to, I've been to
Ukraine, I've been to Poland and

733
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,600
I've, I kind of, when I went,
when I was in, in school, I was,

734
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,160
I spent a year studying in
Israel.

735
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,880
And part of what they do is they
offer you an opportunity to go

736
00:43:54,880 --> 00:44:00,120
to Poland and Ukraine and kind
of get and, and get a history of

737
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,120
World War 2 and what happened
and actually, you know, kind of

738
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:04,320
go through it.
Yeah.

739
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,480
And my grandfather, who'd been a
survivor, although he kind of

740
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,560
survived him and his family
struggled through actually the

741
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,640
Russian side of things.
I just, I'm just discovering all

742
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,560
this because he passed away two
or three years ago.

743
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,800
And I wasn't really aware of
geography or politics or history

744
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,040
at that point.
So whenever he was talking to

745
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,120
me, it was very hard for me to
process and place what was going

746
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,360
on in my mind, you know.
But he was born in Poland right

747
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:37,360
before Germany took it, I guess
in World War 2, on the border of

748
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,280
Poland and Ukraine, and his
family crossed over to Ukraine

749
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,200
figuring the Russians would be
better to deal with than the

750
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,440
Nazis.
But they got 10.

751
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,200
That's a tough choice, isn't it?
Yeah, I mean, America has to

752
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:50,840
make that tough choice to deal
with too, right?

753
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:52,040
You know.
Everyone has to.

754
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,800
Deal at that point with that
tough choice, but they chose to

755
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,240
go to the to Russia and they got
sent to a slave labour camp in

756
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:03,080
Siberia or sorry, not a slave
labour, A labour camp in

757
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,000
Siberia, which is essentially a
slave labour camp.

758
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:10,120
And until they until they made
their way to, you know, I guess

759
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,200
Northern Asia, you know, towards
the end of the war, are they

760
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,920
able to get out of the out of
that part of the out of the

761
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,440
world?
But, you know, I'm just, I'm so

762
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,640
fascinated now.
I've been so fascinated.

763
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,000
Now, now, right there, there's a
novel for you to write.

764
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,040
There's there's that's a really
compelling story My.

765
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,800
Father was begging, was actually
begging me to write this because

766
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:33,760
I'm a, he's a, he was a
historian.

767
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,120
And he actually published.
Did he leave any?

768
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:40,520
Did he leave anything behind?
Any notes behind?

769
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,480
Oh yeah, he published.
A memoir, and I could actually

770
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,320
send it to you, I think.
I mean, it's really, really

771
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:46,840
interesting.
And it's really.

772
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:48,880
I'd love to read it.
Yeah.

773
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,840
Well, pick it, Pick.
It's really funny you should say

774
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:57,960
that because just yesterday I
dug up a, a memoir of sorts of

775
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:02,480
family history that was written
by one of my relatives way back

776
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,600
when, who kind of along the same
lines.

777
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:13,360
My family tree goes from Germany
to Russia to the Volga region of

778
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,360
Russia.
And then from so this is German

779
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,720
immigrant population that went
to Russia and then in the 1800s

780
00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:25,680
or so, mid to late 1800s
immigrated to to the US.

781
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,680
We saw there's a German Russian
connection.

782
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,400
And I, I just dug up this book
yesterday looking at to say

783
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:37,680
maybe, you know, a project down
the line could be a family

784
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,800
history memoir type thing using
that book that was written in

785
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,640
19.
It was written about the time I

786
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,320
was born because I'm actually in
the book that they list me as a

787
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,240
family member.
So it had to be in 1962 or so

788
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,440
that it was that it was made.
So, So yeah, if you have

789
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,480
something from your grandfather,
which I think is amazing, you

790
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,360
know, that would be, that would
be a great jumping off point

791
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:09,720
for, for either a, you know, a
true memoir written well or a

792
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,320
historical fiction or something
along those lines.

793
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,320
Yeah, that's exciting.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

794
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,320
I would love to, especially
because now again, it speaks to

795
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:19,800
me and I think that, you know,
he was.

796
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,720
Yeah, again, he was an historian
and none of my family is.

797
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,000
And I was the oldest to my
family, so, you know, he was.

798
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,200
So I, you know, if I wasn't
really interested and none of my

799
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,280
younger siblings are mature
enough or, you know, I guess

800
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,520
even educated enough to really
be aware of what was going on.

801
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,280
But but it was really, I mean,
it, it, it and now I have it and

802
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,240
it feels so cool and so special
to have that bit of family

803
00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:46,240
history to be able to like, you
know, be able to relate and

804
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:47,800
understand and kind of look into
that.

805
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,400
But yeah, actually, and, and
maybe that I could bring us back

806
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,880
a little bit to the writing
conversation because my biggest

807
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,880
problem as a writer is I have a
hard time keeping track of the

808
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,080
whole story and then getting
lost and actually making the

809
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,280
story happen.
What's your, what was your

810
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,040
process when it comes to, when
it comes to the big picture

811
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,280
story and then, you know,
writing the filling in the

812
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,000
details and the characters along
the way.

813
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,840
So you in in the writing
community, they call it a you're

814
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,600
either a plotter where you plot
out everything.

815
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,560
And there's many ways to do some
people just do it, you know, in

816
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,400
a notebook.
Some people do it post it notes

817
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,600
on the wall.
Or you're a pantser.

818
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:30,400
You know, you, you're flying by
the seat of your pants.

819
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,800
You just start writing and see
where the story goes.

820
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,440
I thought I was a plotter.
Yeah, well, yeah.

821
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:41,680
So I thought I was a plotter.
I plotted out my book where

822
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,360
where I thought the story was
going to go, what the story was

823
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,840
going to be.
I did, I had it from A-Z written

824
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,840
out.
And then after probably 2

825
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,160
chapters in, it took a hard left
turn and went a completely

826
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,400
different direction.
And I just, I just went with it.

827
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,720
I just said, OK, I'm just going
to go with this story the way

828
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,800
it's the way it's written.
I, I would come up with new, no,

829
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,880
I saved everything I, I plotted
out for that book.

830
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,040
I saved it because maybe it'll
end up in book 3 or 4.

831
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:20,680
It's not in book 2, but, but
yeah, so I, I just, they also,

832
00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:22,440
people also call it a discovery
writer.

833
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,240
And it, it really kind of spoke
to me as I started writing

834
00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:28,680
something and then an idea hit
me and I kept going with it and

835
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,400
going with it.
And, and the, the, everything I

836
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:36,000
talked about the your Chenko
redefection, all that was none

837
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,920
of that was in book one.
It was in the, what I plotted

838
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,360
for book one.
It just ended up there as I, you

839
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:44,240
know, made my way through the
story.

840
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,720
And, and then, but to your point
also on how do you keep track of

841
00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:49,760
everything?
There are, you know, you know,

842
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,600
some people just write in Word
or in Google Docs or there's a,

843
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,600
there's a software called
Scrivener, which is very robust.

844
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,760
And you can have in that
software you're writing in one

845
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:06,440
pane and then you have tiles,
you know, in other panes with

846
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,120
plot points and you can move
chapters around.

847
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,440
You can do all kinds of fancy
stuff with it.

848
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,840
And I wrote book one in that I'm
actually using a different

849
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,760
software for book 2.
Yes, it, it, it does.

850
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:20,880
You could, and there's a,
there's a number of different

851
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,720
software's that that do things
like that.

852
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:27,160
So you can, you can be as
sophisticated as you want as you

853
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,760
do it.
I just try and keep it all in my

854
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,840
head as I'm going.
And then I go back as I'm

855
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,600
making, you know, edits, I'll
think of something and say, OK,

856
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,360
I got to go back to this chapter
because I know that's where this

857
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,800
incident happens.
And you know, then I'll, I'll

858
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,160
work on it there.
So, but I, I enjoy the process

859
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,480
of weaving myself through the
story.

860
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,360
And then you end up, you know,
sometimes you write yourself

861
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,600
into a corner, you end up with a
plot hole you can't get out of.

862
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,400
And then I'll sit there and
struggle with it.

863
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,200
And then, you know, one day in
the shower, I'll be driving in

864
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,520
my car.
Well, eventually he comes to you

865
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,200
say, OK, either either you give
up and you backtrack and you go

866
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,200
a different direction, which I
which I'm just too stubborn to

867
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,560
do that, or you you figure it
out.

868
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,200
And eventually I figured out a
way to get out of a certain plot

869
00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:25,320
that I was stuck in for weeks.
And and and and.

870
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:27,880
Yeah, go ahead.
Sorry.

871
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:29,040
Finish your thought.
I'm sorry about that.

872
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,960
So in in book 1, I wrote it in a
linear fashion.

873
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,960
I started at, you know, the
opening sentence, which I

874
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,680
rewrote 57 times, but the
opening sentence and then all

875
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,640
the way through the end in a in
straight order.

876
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,160
In book 2, I got myself in a
little bit of a jam.

877
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:49,560
And so I said, you know what,
I'm going to leave this.

878
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:54,080
And then I went, I jumped ahead
10 chapters to a scene that I

879
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,720
had in my head that that I knew
I was going to write.

880
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:03,040
So I jumped ahead to that scene
and then went back and bridged

881
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,720
the gap.
And so that was a way to Get Me

882
00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:08,680
Out of, you know, get my head
out of this plot hole I was in,

883
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,960
go write a scene that I knew I
was going to be in there and

884
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:13,320
then figure out how I was going
to bridge them.

885
00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:16,840
So that that was a fun way to do
to do it this.

886
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,000
Way it's a great it's a great
method.

887
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,280
I had a teacher that used to say
you got to plan your life

888
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,640
somewhere between 5 minutes and
five years from now.

889
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,000
And if you don't know what it's
going to like look like in 5

890
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,840
minutes, then think about it in
a year or in a week or in a

891
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,880
month.
And then and then where you want

892
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,520
to be and how are you going to
bridge those two, Right.

893
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,680
And I think that's a very
similar experience that what

894
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,640
you're just what you're just
describing, you know, where

895
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:44,520
sometimes you know the right
path to take, look where you

896
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,240
want to end up and then and then
and then see what options lie,

897
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,120
you know, lie before you.
I think it's a really, I think

898
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:52,600
it's really cool.
Another thing that you, that you

899
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,360
mentioned that I wanted to kind
of jump on also that I want you

900
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,600
to bring some more light to and
focus to is that you don't throw

901
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,800
out or get rid of any of these
like plot points that you start

902
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,440
wandering down and meandering
down.

903
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,520
And just even today, you know, I
had some students, I'm trying

904
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:09,920
to, I'm teaching 9th grade, the
difference between capitalism

905
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:15,680
and communism and, and you know,
and my students are, you know,

906
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,640
trying to write these answers
and they get frustrated.

907
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:18,960
They RIP up their paper and
throw it out.

908
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:20,360
I'm like, no, what are you
doing?

909
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,200
They're like, they're like, it's
not good.

910
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,120
I'm like, it's fine.
It's important that you keep

911
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,960
track of the way that you're
thinking and important for you

912
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,680
to be able to keep this and look
back and be able to say, oh,

913
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:33,960
right, that didn't make sense.
This makes sense, you know, or

914
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:35,360
that.
Yeah, a couple.

915
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,240
Of sentences worked out this
couple of sentences, didn't you

916
00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:41,200
know, but at least you can save
a little bit for later.

917
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:46,920
One of the another great writing
writing exercise that we did

918
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,640
when I was learning how to write
creatively was everyone would

919
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,240
write a poem, you know, for 5-10
minutes, whatever it was.

920
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,480
And then everyone would read
their poem out loud and you

921
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:03,000
would write whatever details.
It could be a word or a line or

922
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,800
a description or a sentence.
You'd write what captured you,

923
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,640
you know, and you'd be forced to
integrate that into your next

924
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,360
poem because there's something
about that that stuck out to you

925
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,640
enough to make itself stick in
your head.

926
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,120
And that's there's a reason for
that.

927
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,120
So don't throw that out.
That's not garbage.

928
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,080
Use that again, you know,
recycle it.

929
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:27,920
And I think that any writer will
tell you recycling is a huge

930
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,720
part of the.
Industry, yeah, I mean, because

931
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,560
you never know when that nugget
that you had before will fit

932
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:40,720
someplace else or, or just serve
as inspiration to get you say,

933
00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:45,400
yeah, this was OK, but I could
now use it in a different way

934
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,160
or, you know, give you the
inspiration to to take off on

935
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,320
another project.
Yeah.

936
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,200
So tell me about your early how
you got into the agency.

937
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,760
Was this a family thing?
Was this like a?

938
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:58,720
Patriotic thing?
No something.

939
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,080
You just weren't sure what you
wanted to do, so you decided to

940
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:02,480
end up there.
How'd this happen?

941
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:04,880
No, it was more of the patriotic
thing.

942
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:10,320
So I went to school in San
Diego, UC San Diego, and was

943
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,720
graduating as a political
science major.

944
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:17,800
This was after I'd spent, you
know, three years as a pre Med

945
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:22,440
major, but after I failed, after
I failed organic chemistry for

946
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,880
the second time, I figured, you
know, the doctor things just not

947
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,480
going to work out for me.
So I've heard that, by the way,

948
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,720
about organic.
Chemistry from a lot of a lot of

949
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:37,000
we've all said.
That yeah well, it it organic O

950
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:41,560
Cam and I did not get along so
so I you know, I thought to

951
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:45,080
myself, you know what else do I
like I like politics back then

952
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:49,800
and I still do so I you know, I
dropped you know the and how old

953
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,120
are you?
I think I I guess college you

954
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,960
were so this is this is my
junior year, halfway through my

955
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,760
junior year of college.
And so what's going on?

956
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,120
You know, I dropped that you're.
Involved politically right now.

957
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:03,880
Oh, now or back then?
No, no, no.

958
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:05,760
Back then what?
What made?

959
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:07,320
You.
Interested back then so well

960
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,520
back then.
So this was 19.

961
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,800
I graduated in 84.
This is like 83.

962
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:17,680
So, you know, it was Ronald
Reagan and, you know, the

963
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:21,560
shining city on the hill type
thing and, and the, you know,

964
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:26,880
the Soviets were the red menace.
And so all of that was kind of,

965
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:32,040
you know, building the, you
know, the the world around me.

966
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,800
And so I went to I became a poli
sci major.

967
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,440
I graduated on time.
I was able to, you know, drop

968
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,960
all the science classes, pick up
all the poli sci classes, work

969
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,400
my butt off to get out in time
and again.

970
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,960
So now I'm dating myself.
This was the Internet didn't

971
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,640
exist.
And you know, what I did is I

972
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,200
walked into the Career Center
one day and there's a bunch of

973
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:59,080
binders on the wall that, you
know, for various companies and,

974
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:04,480
you know, agencies and, you
know, not, not for profits and

975
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,200
you name it.
You know what any college Career

976
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,040
Center would have for every
major.

977
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,560
And I'm looking and I there was
one, there's a Central

978
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,000
Intelligence Agency.
And I knew I want to do

979
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,960
something in the government with
my poli sci background.

980
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,400
And so I was applying to, you
know, congressional offices.

981
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,360
I applied with what back then
was called the Naval

982
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,560
Investigative Service and I
pulled the agency one down and I

983
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,240
read through what they were
looking for and you know, of

984
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:36,160
course it, it, it seemed really
interesting to me.

985
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:41,120
So I, I'm sure I went back to my
dorm room and pulled out the

986
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:46,480
typewriter and typed out a
letter and send it off in snail

987
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,120
mail.
And, you know, weeks later, I

988
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,360
got a phone call from a Mr.
Jones.

989
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,440
And of course, I thought that
was immediately thought that was

990
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,160
a pseudonym.
Turns out his name really was

991
00:57:55,160 --> 00:58:00,520
Mr. Jones.
Yeah, through the interview

992
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:03,000
process.
And they, they were looking for,

993
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,160
you know, it was again, you
know, for your listeners, this

994
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:11,640
was 40 years ago, so a much
different time in the world.

995
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,280
And they were looking for the
all American men and women who

996
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,680
could, you know, for God and
country, you know, join the

997
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:25,400
agency, pass the polygraph and
go out and do their work and

998
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,000
pass the polygraph.
You know, I think that.

999
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,040
Mean you're not lying about
something or pass the polygraph

1000
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:32,840
that shows.
You but yeah, well, no to assume

1001
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,480
you're not lying.
So part of the background, you

1002
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,480
know, the background
investigation was very intense.

1003
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,480
You know, they do a full scope.
We call a full scope background

1004
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:45,320
investigation everywhere I had
lived for the past 15 years,

1005
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:48,360
every place I had worked, which
admittedly wasn't much.

1006
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:49,760
I had a couple of part time
jobs.

1007
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:50,840
I was coming right out of
school.

1008
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:56,440
Every, you know, you know, the
family members were interviewed

1009
00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:01,560
and friends and you know, other,
you know, people were, were

1010
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,960
developed as, as to be
interviewed as to, you know,

1011
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:07,680
everything about me.
Then, you know, I had to go back

1012
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,480
and pass, you know, a medical
exam and pass a polygraph to,

1013
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:15,120
you know, prove that I wasn't a
Soviet agent and all of that

1014
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:19,120
type of thing.
And when I got to the polygraph

1015
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:21,800
part, I, I said, OK, I'm pretty
sure I'm going to get this job

1016
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:23,840
because I, I knew I wasn't a
Soviet agent.

1017
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:25,920
I knew I'd pass the Poly.
Still.

1018
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:30,320
They still, they still, yeah,
they still really put you

1019
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:31,720
through the wringer on that
thing.

1020
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:36,440
And and then you know, when
you're in, you get repollied.

1021
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,360
They called periodic
reinvestigations re polygraphs

1022
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:44,160
every couple of years.
And you know, it's never a

1023
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:46,400
pleasant experience, but if
you've got nothing to hide,

1024
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,040
you've got nothing to hide as
you go through it.

1025
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,000
My wife on the other hand failed
it every time she would get I

1026
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:53,520
don't know how she I don't know
how they ever hired her because

1027
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:57,800
she every time she took the Poly
she just got so nervous she she

1028
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,600
would end up failing and have to
go back and take it again until

1029
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,880
the shoes finally.
You know, got through it, but

1030
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,440
you know, they can tell if
you're being deceptive or if

1031
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:10,920
you're just being nervous and
making the box flutter, you

1032
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,480
know, so there's, there's a,
they're really good at what they

1033
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,720
do.
You know, there's an art to it,

1034
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,160
there's a science to it and
there's an art to being a

1035
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,120
polygrapher.
I, I toyed with the idea of

1036
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,200
joining the, the, you know,
becoming a polygrapher and

1037
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:28,040
joining that team when I was in
and, you know, never, never

1038
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:32,160
actually went down that road.
But so, yeah, so cool.

1039
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,000
World to dive into as from an
author's perspective.

1040
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,960
Yeah, I mean, oh, 100% and that,
that that's.

1041
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:41,880
Cool.
Yeah, that'll definitely, you

1042
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,800
know, they'll they'll that'll
play somewhere in my in my

1043
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,600
stories.
I mean, I mentioned, I think I

1044
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:54,040
mentioned it in book one.
It is, you know, just as a, a

1045
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:57,320
side comment about, you know,
having to take a, a polygraph

1046
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,880
exam, you know, when you're,
when you're inside the agency.

1047
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:05,080
But so that process, you know,
it takes quite a while.

1048
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:11,640
I think I graduated in, I
graduated in May or June.

1049
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,280
And well, I'd started the
process before I graduated.

1050
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:20,640
And I, like I said, I entered on
duty in September of, of 84.

1051
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,560
So it took, it took a few months
to get through.

1052
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:26,800
Yeah.
And it's probably it's longer

1053
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,200
now.
Please sorry finish your

1054
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:30,640
thought.
I'm sorry.

1055
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:35,040
Not to say it's longer.
I'm sure it takes longer now and

1056
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:39,000
they're looking for different
skill sets now, you know, you

1057
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,160
know, now I'm sure they want
people with extensive overseas

1058
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:45,440
experience who've lived
overseas, worked overseas.

1059
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,080
Again, depending on the type of
roles, you know, for case

1060
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,560
officers, they're going to want
somebody that speaks foreign

1061
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:54,840
languages and has other type of
experiences that I didn't have

1062
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,200
back then.
But I also wasn't looking, you

1063
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:00,200
know, at that point, I wasn't
looking to become a case

1064
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:04,080
officer.
I was drawn to the, the, the

1065
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:06,720
security side.
So I spent my career doing

1066
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:09,280
investigations.
I spent a long part of my

1067
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:14,120
career, which is what the books
are based on, on the director's

1068
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,000
protective staff.
Back then it was called the DCI

1069
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:18,760
security staff.
Now it's called the director's

1070
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,000
protective staff.
They're the, they're the

1071
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:25,920
internal team that protects the,
the director and the deputy

1072
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:30,080
director in their families.
And so I, I spent a long time

1073
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:33,320
doing that, travelling around
the world doing that for a long

1074
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,440
time.
That's that's the basis for the

1075
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:40,400
primary character in my His Name
is Grant Hunter in my Grant

1076
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:45,040
Hunter thriller series.
Well, OK, I got a lot of I got a

1077
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:47,040
lot of follow up questions over
here, but this is great.

1078
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:50,360
First of all, I guess that this
could be just quick.

1079
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,320
This is a quick follow up.
Is the case officer something

1080
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:55,920
just glorified by Hollywood or
does it have a lot of status in

1081
01:02:55,920 --> 01:03:00,040
the agency that oh, he's a case
officer, she's a case officer

1082
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:01,760
and it's really hard to do.
It's really impressive.

1083
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:02,960
And so you have more respect for
them?

1084
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:06,720
Or is that just kind?
Of well, they, they definitely,

1085
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,040
I mean the every role in the
agency is important.

1086
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:15,120
So there you have your your case
officers are the ones that are

1087
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:21,600
out primarily overseas, you
know, working their assets to

1088
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:25,320
gather the information that's
important to the country.

1089
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,480
Then you have, you know, so
that's, that's a very important

1090
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:30,680
role.
And that's the one that tends to

1091
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:36,120
get glorified most by Hollywood.
But then you have your is.

1092
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,400
It one of the more difficult
roles or careers to get within

1093
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:41,360
the agency or it's you.
Know it's that's.

1094
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,240
Just.
It's again, it depends on your

1095
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:48,160
it depends on your skill set.
You know, if you you know there

1096
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:51,680
arguably some would say, you
know, the ground branch

1097
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,880
paramilitary team is a very
difficult role to get because

1098
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:58,120
you have to come into that with
military experience and

1099
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:03,360
background tier one work.
So case officers is, is it

1100
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:05,960
difficult?
Because you have to, it's a very

1101
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:08,880
difficult life.
You have to have a specific

1102
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:13,200
mindset to do it.
You're undercover primarily your

1103
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:15,960
entire career.
And I was undercover my entire

1104
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,240
career.
So that that's a undercover

1105
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,520
security, you know, it's AII was
I was undercover.

1106
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:27,360
So I was not a declared agency
person until I left.

1107
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:31,280
They opened me up when I left.
But during my entire time.

1108
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:36,480
Yeah.
So I I didn't, you know, if you

1109
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,560
asked me who I worked for, I
would have given you my cover.

1110
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,280
My wife and I had to come up
with a cover story of how we met

1111
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:46,080
because she was open.
She was a known open CIA

1112
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:49,240
employee and I was undercover.
So we had to have a cover story

1113
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:51,720
of how we met.
We had to have a cover story of

1114
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:54,920
why was it, why was the the
director of the CIA at our

1115
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:56,920
wedding?
Because.

1116
01:04:57,280 --> 01:04:58,800
So we had to have a cover story
for that.

1117
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:01,680
We had, you know, there was,
it's a, it's a difficult

1118
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:04,920
lifestyle when you're under now
only a small fraction of agency

1119
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:08,560
personnel are undercover and
have to go through that type of,

1120
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:15,120
of process and, and, you know,
understanding of how you're

1121
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:17,800
going to live your life.
So yes, you know, case officer

1122
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:22,400
is a difficult role, but it's,
you know, it could be argued

1123
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:27,240
that an analyst has an equally
difficult and arguably as

1124
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:31,160
important a role because they
have to take the raw data that's

1125
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:35,160
coming in from the field and
synthesize that into actionable

1126
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:38,640
intelligence that the policy
makers can then use.

1127
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,840
So you have you have your
collection side of the house,

1128
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:47,960
you have your analysis side of
your house, you have directorate

1129
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:50,080
called the director of science
and technology.

1130
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:53,320
You know, those are all the big
brain guys that are, you know,

1131
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:58,400
coming up with the covert
communications and you know, you

1132
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:00,880
know, the the latest and
greatest technology for

1133
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:06,000
eavesdropping and, and dead
drops and all of those kind of

1134
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,040
things.
So that's a that's a very

1135
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,680
important role.
Then you have what in my day is

1136
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:12,240
called the director of
administration.

1137
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:14,640
I think it's called the director
of support now, and that's

1138
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,480
everyone else that makes the
agency run.

1139
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:22,320
So without, you know, the
security team and, or the

1140
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:26,960
psychologist and the medical
professionals and, you know,

1141
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:31,400
the, the lawyers and the
congressional liaison and all of

1142
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:35,560
the other things that make, you
know, the, you know, people, you

1143
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:39,520
hear people refer to the agency
as a company, you know, make the

1144
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:45,240
company run equally important.
So it just depends on where your

1145
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:48,840
skill sets fit and you got
linguists and everything else in

1146
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:53,360
between.
It's a It's a fascinating place

1147
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,040
to work.
I can imagine, I can totally

1148
01:06:56,040 --> 01:07:00,320
imagine The other thing I wanted
to ask you just based on your

1149
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:03,080
answers before and maybe you can
give me a little bit of a

1150
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:08,200
contact understanding context.
One thing I've been thinking a

1151
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:13,280
lot about recently is the fact
that history didn't start today,

1152
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:16,240
you know, or last year or five
years ago or when I was born,

1153
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:21,680
you know, and I'm really, really
curious, especially when you

1154
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:26,000
were politically, you know,
active or interested and engaged

1155
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:31,360
in the 80s.
What, what do you think?

1156
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:34,880
What, what, what was like the
core difference between, you

1157
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:37,040
know, what was considered a
liberal back then and a

1158
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:43,280
conservative back then relative
to today, you know, and what you

1159
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:47,000
know, like, you know, obviously
Russia was the big was the big,

1160
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:49,640
you know, blip on America's
radar in the 80s.

1161
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:55,400
What was what was the we?
Did everyone agree left and

1162
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,800
right that Russia was a problem?
Did it was just a difference in

1163
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:00,400
how to resolve it or how to deal
with it?

1164
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:03,440
Or was there a question as to
whether or not Russia was even a

1165
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:05,720
problem?
Whether you know what you know

1166
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:09,760
what, what, what, what was the
political world like while you

1167
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:12,000
were engaged in it?
You know and you know and you,

1168
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:14,880
you feel free to elaborate on
your personal opinions or to

1169
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:16,560
leave them out, whatever you're
more comfortable.

1170
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,240
With yeah, so this is
definitely, this is definitely

1171
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:22,560
the world according to Scott and
not, you know, not agency

1172
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,399
doctrine or anything else.
I mean, obviously you've already

1173
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:28,160
hit on it.
It was a completely different

1174
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:30,800
world in a number of different
ways.

1175
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:34,800
Yes, there was, you know, the,
IT was still when I was there,

1176
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:41,560
it was still the Soviet Union
which was the big primary, a not

1177
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:45,640
the, but a big primary focus.
But so is China, right.

1178
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:51,040
So and and then there was how?
Sure.

1179
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:55,359
Yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, China was not as

1180
01:08:56,120 --> 01:09:00,200
sophisticated as the Russians
were in far as far as

1181
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:06,680
geopolitical and again, my
opinion, geopolitical influence

1182
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:09,600
peddling and all of that as as a
Soviet work.

1183
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:13,800
Remember the, you know, the
Soviets were again decades

1184
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:18,479
before, you know, causing mayhem
with the, you know, the Cuban

1185
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:20,720
missile crisis and things like
that, where they were pushing

1186
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:24,760
their influence out and, and
threatening the the US in a

1187
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:31,800
number of different ways.
And when I was in the Soviets

1188
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:33,720
who had made their move into
Afghanistan.

1189
01:09:34,279 --> 01:09:39,240
And so, you know, we were
supporting the Muhaja Deen and

1190
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:46,200
it it was a proxy war of sorts
supporting them and as well.

1191
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:48,279
That's exactly where I was
going.

1192
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:52,520
You know, you know, it's, it's a
little bit dramatic, but I think

1193
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:56,080
it was Charlie Wilson's War is a
excellent movie for any of your

1194
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:59,520
listeners that are interested in
that time period to go watch

1195
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:03,840
because it it's you know, from
my limited.

1196
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:08,760
Yeah, it's I, I think it's, I
think it's outstanding.

1197
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:13,120
It tells the story in a fairly
accurate way of how, you know,

1198
01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:20,880
the agency started building up
its its support of anti Soviet

1199
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:23,320
forces.
Now I think the agency will be

1200
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:25,360
the first to admit and, and I
will too.

1201
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:31,400
After the Soviets left, we
dropped the ball there and which

1202
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:36,680
allowed the, you know, the, the
fermentation of the radical

1203
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:40,320
Islamic, you know, extremism,
which ended up coming back to

1204
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:44,240
get us on 9/11, right.
So there's, you know, there's

1205
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,480
lessons to be, there's
definitely lessons to be learned

1206
01:10:47,480 --> 01:10:49,720
there.
But but, and then the other

1207
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:52,600
thing, you know, you know, you
asked about what was

1208
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:54,240
conservative and what was
liberal.

1209
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:59,080
You know, back then it was, you
know, Democrat and Republican.

1210
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:05,000
But, but if you think, and I, I
know that I, you know, I'm much

1211
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:08,880
older than you are.
But back then, you know, the

1212
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:12,200
Democrats and the Republicans
actually worked together.

1213
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:15,360
You know, you'd have tip
O'Neill, who is the speaker of

1214
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:23,440
the House for, you know, decades
would work with Republicans to

1215
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:27,640
and, and vice versa to actually
get some things done.

1216
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:32,280
It wasn't this, this bomb
throwing animosity that we have

1217
01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:36,160
now.
And, and, but you know, a lot of

1218
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:40,360
what we, you know, a lot of the
social ills that we have now,

1219
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:44,840
I'm convinced are part and
parcel to, you know, the advent

1220
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:49,160
of social media and the fact
that anybody, you know, can say

1221
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:53,440
anything at any time and push it
out to millions of people.

1222
01:11:54,560 --> 01:12:00,320
And so there's the the the
extremists on both sides are to

1223
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:05,120
me, you know, very it's very
disappointing.

1224
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:10,520
And I was asked in another
podcast, yeah, well, I think so

1225
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:12,000
as well.
But I was asked in another

1226
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:15,160
podcast is do I do I let any of
that into my writing?

1227
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:21,000
And I'm, I'm being very
deliberate not to, you know, AI,

1228
01:12:21,480 --> 01:12:23,640
just like I said, it's
disappointing and I think it's

1229
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:28,120
dangerous to a certain extent.
But B, just as a, you know, as

1230
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:32,320
an author and you know, you want
it, you're also a businessman

1231
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:34,720
because you, you've got this
business around your books.

1232
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:38,400
You know, I don't want to
automatically, you know?

1233
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:41,000
Turn off half your audience.
Piss off half of the half of my

1234
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:44,840
reading audience because I land
on one side of the political

1235
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:47,920
spectrum or the other.
So that's that's just not good

1236
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:50,280
business.
But also, I don't think it's

1237
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:54,720
it's compelling storytelling
either, unless there's, you

1238
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,080
know, a specific plot point
you're trying to make.

1239
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:02,160
So at the time, left and right
agreed that there is the same

1240
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:07,640
issue and they just had varying
degrees or I guess line or, you

1241
01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:10,560
know, responses and what would
be appropriate to deal with the

1242
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:13,000
issue.
Because it feels like today.

1243
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:15,320
And one of the actually one of
the reasons why I even started

1244
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:19,480
this podcast to begin with is
because, you know, today we

1245
01:13:19,480 --> 01:13:21,920
can't even agree on what the
same freaking problem is.

1246
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:26,080
I mean, you could tell someone,
hey, you know, this, you know,

1247
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,760
this, this group is a problem.
And they'll be like, what group?

1248
01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:30,640
And then like, you know, and
then you wait four years and

1249
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:32,360
then the next group will be
like, that was a big problem.

1250
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:33,680
You're like, what?
You, you didn't respond.

1251
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:35,760
You've been talking about that
for four years because you were

1252
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:43,080
talking about it, you know.
And yeah, you're absolutely

1253
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:44,960
right, both sides are guilty of
it.

1254
01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:49,640
And, and it's, you know, it's
the extremist viewpoints on both

1255
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:51,920
sides.
I mean, you couldn't get them to

1256
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:55,440
agree that the sky is blue right
on on any given day.

1257
01:13:55,800 --> 01:14:02,240
So when, when there's absolutely
0 common ground at all, you

1258
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:04,400
know, I don't know how anything
can get done.

1259
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:09,360
So, you know, it's a, we're
certainly not going to solve it

1260
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:14,240
on this podcast, but it's a,
it's a, it's a significant, it's

1261
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:19,720
a significant problem, but.
Yeah, it is.

1262
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:24,240
One thing you just mentioned
also was was the online presence

1263
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:29,520
which has become extremely I
guess controversial.

1264
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:35,280
And, you know, one of the points
that people make is that

1265
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:38,760
potentially that and almost
certainly not even potentially

1266
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:41,400
that different, that different
intelligences around the world

1267
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:50,200
will will kind of try to push or
highlight stories on online to

1268
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:53,000
kind of create or force a
narrative.

1269
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:59,880
You know, and on one hand, you
kind of feel torn because you

1270
01:14:59,880 --> 01:15:01,120
want to protect freedom of
speech.

1271
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:03,840
On the other hand, you know,
these are potentially foreign

1272
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:06,720
adversaries acting.
Do you do you have any?

1273
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:09,640
First of all, I think that's a,
that's a great thing to

1274
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:12,440
influence into a book, right
into the question of what to do

1275
01:15:12,440 --> 01:15:16,120
with such a thing.
But do you, do you have any

1276
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:20,600
thoughts on any of that?
Well, I mean, it's, it's

1277
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:23,440
certainly, I mean, we've, we've
seen it, it's the case.

1278
01:15:23,480 --> 01:15:27,240
And again, on both sides, you
have, you know, various

1279
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:33,200
adversaries that are, you know,
pushing a, as you say, a

1280
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:38,880
narrative or, you know, I hate
the term fake news just to try

1281
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:43,800
and muddy the waters or maybe,
you know, influence those that

1282
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:48,200
are susceptible to it.
I mean, I, I truly believe, you

1283
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:53,600
know, people have a, a duty to,
to be, you know, aware of what,

1284
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:55,800
you know, who and what they're
voting for.

1285
01:15:56,600 --> 01:16:00,720
But those that are, are more
susceptible to a certain type of

1286
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,640
rhetoric or whatever.
Certainly that happens.

1287
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:09,680
And, and now, you know, we're,
we're getting into even more, I

1288
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:15,800
believe, dangerous territory
with the advent of AI and the

1289
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:19,240
things that can happen in AI
that, you know, back in the day,

1290
01:16:19,560 --> 01:16:22,680
you know, a politician would get
caught in a sex scandal or

1291
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:23,880
something.
There'd be a photo of them.

1292
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,360
And they'd always say that photo
was, you know, was doctored or

1293
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:29,840
photoshopped and it never was.
It was always them.

1294
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:35,000
Well, nowadays with AI and what
they can do, you know, they can

1295
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:37,880
make a whole videotape that and
you cannot tell.

1296
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:44,240
So, so there's it, it's just a
strange new world that we're all

1297
01:16:44,240 --> 01:16:48,000
going to have to, you know, get
ourselves through.

1298
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:53,400
And, and again, I, I'd be the
last one to say I have any, you

1299
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:56,760
know, any true answers for, for
any of these problems.

1300
01:16:56,920 --> 01:17:00,240
But as you keep alluding to,
there's, there's plenty of

1301
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:05,360
plenty of fodder for, for future
storylines and plot lines and,

1302
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:11,080
and you know, ways to weave some
of this, these challenges in

1303
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:14,280
into the book.
And, and, and you know, right

1304
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:19,040
now I'm because of how I wrote
the, the book one with

1305
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:22,400
references to what was happening
in 1984 with the Yorchenko

1306
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:26,320
defection and all that.
It, the, the book Book 1 was

1307
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:30,920
kind of set in like 2012.
Book 2 is like in 2014, 2015.

1308
01:17:31,160 --> 01:17:34,720
Eventually I'll be moving
forward and, and I always have

1309
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:38,080
to catch myself and go back and
as I'm doing research on a, on a

1310
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:41,800
certain technology or a weapon
system or an aircraft or

1311
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:45,840
whatever, I have to go back and
Google it or at ChatGPT.

1312
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:49,040
Did this exist in, you know,
2014?

1313
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:51,800
Because last thing I want to do
is get called out for a second,

1314
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:54,880
you know, No, Scott, that didn't
come out until 2022.

1315
01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:59,800
So, yeah, so yeah, there's, you
know, as I move, as I move the

1316
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:02,880
storyline, as I move the
storyline forward, I will

1317
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:07,040
eventually be, you know,
incorporating some of these

1318
01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:13,560
newer, you know, challenges and
topics into future stories.

1319
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:16,400
Yeah, what's, what's your
homework like?

1320
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:18,600
What's your homework like when
it comes to a topic?

1321
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:20,640
Because you know.
There are people I, I, I have a

1322
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:24,360
friend of mine and you know, I
met him a couple of months ago

1323
01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:27,320
and he's, he's a great dude.
And one thing that he does so

1324
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:30,640
well is that every time he's
interested in the topic, he

1325
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:33,840
loves doing deep dives and
homework into, you know, and

1326
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:37,640
like, you know, crawling into
these rabbit holes and just, you

1327
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:41,640
know, seeing where he ends up.
Do you what's, what's your

1328
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:43,880
homework like when it when it
comes to writing this?

1329
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:47,440
Do you do homework hoping to
find new material or do you have

1330
01:18:47,440 --> 01:18:50,000
the material in advance and look
to do homework after that?

1331
01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:51,640
What's the?
What's the process?

1332
01:18:52,880 --> 01:18:54,440
It's a, it's a little bit of
both.

1333
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:57,640
I mean, obviously I knew as I
walked down this, this one

1334
01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:02,240
storyline with, with the
Yorchenko defection, I knew I

1335
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:06,360
was going with that and I, I'd
lived some of it and I'd

1336
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:09,040
researched that particular case
quite a bit.

1337
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:12,240
And I was polling from multiple
sources, not just Googling it.

1338
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:17,000
I was going to the agency and
you can go online in the agency

1339
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:20,400
and look at, at certain things
that they're published about

1340
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:23,120
certain issues where it's
declassified, it's out there.

1341
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:27,960
So I was researching that and
then I would, you know, I, I, I

1342
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:32,600
had to go through, there's a
part of the plot line involves

1343
01:19:33,440 --> 01:19:36,080
the use of one time, you know,
cipher, one time pads.

1344
01:19:36,440 --> 01:19:39,760
So I had to get smart because I
had never actually used one

1345
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:42,840
myself on how A1 time pad
worked.

1346
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:47,240
So I, I went down that rabbit
hole and then, you know, it,

1347
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:51,960
the, the book was initially set.
The initial scenes are in

1348
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:54,200
Thailand.
Now I'd visited Thailand and

1349
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:56,520
worked in Thailand on several
occasions.

1350
01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:00,440
So I had broadly knew what I was
talking about.

1351
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:04,840
But then to, you know, make
specific, you know, if I was

1352
01:20:04,840 --> 01:20:08,440
describing A surveillance
detection route, I wanted to be

1353
01:20:08,440 --> 01:20:11,360
accurate.
So then I was researching the

1354
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:15,080
road maps and you know, if I was
running an SDR in Thailand

1355
01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:18,120
today, these are the roads I
would take and then weaving that

1356
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:21,320
into the book.
So there's, you know, I, I think

1357
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:27,000
that the, that the research is
just as enjoyable as the writing

1358
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:29,800
part.
You know, there's a lot to a lot

1359
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:32,480
to get into.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1360
01:20:32,480 --> 01:20:35,720
Do you do you watch White Lotus?
When?

1361
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:37,800
This newest season?
Are you a fan of the show?

1362
01:20:39,040 --> 01:20:42,080
No, my my wife.
My wife is a fan but I don't

1363
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:44,840
think I've ever seen it.
You should check it out.

1364
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:48,760
It's, it's what, what I think
you would like about it,

1365
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:53,520
especially from a writer's point
of view, is that it's a very

1366
01:20:53,520 --> 01:21:02,360
deliberate and intentional and,
and, and it feels like there was

1367
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:07,040
a lot of love and attention put
into every single shot and every

1368
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:11,160
single scene.
And, you know, and so from a

1369
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:15,480
commercial sense, it's not too,
you know, typical in terms of

1370
01:21:15,480 --> 01:21:17,360
like popping and cutting or
whatever it is.

1371
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:21,240
But you know, from a, from a
storyteller's perspective, it's,

1372
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:24,040
it's, it's really a work of art.
And the and the and the and the

1373
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:29,600
latest season was was in was in
Thailand, which is what I was

1374
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:31,720
asking.
About yeah, that's what she told

1375
01:21:31,720 --> 01:21:32,440
me it was.
I just.

1376
01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:36,720
Yeah.
I find it, I find it fascinating

1377
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:42,600
that, you know, and I guess this
is done and I guess this is for

1378
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:47,000
good reason.
But how little we know about how

1379
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:50,520
little at least Americans seem
to know that the rest of the

1380
01:21:50,520 --> 01:21:54,760
world, you know, like the Far
East, Thailand and Japan and you

1381
01:21:54,760 --> 01:21:57,600
know, China.
And I mean, those are, these are

1382
01:21:57,600 --> 01:22:00,280
all rich cultures that have been
on for thousands of years that,

1383
01:22:00,520 --> 01:22:03,480
that I don't remember hearing.
I, I didn't, I couldn't point

1384
01:22:03,480 --> 01:22:06,280
out a map where they were, you
know, and I didn't even notice

1385
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:08,320
how much ground they covered on
the map.

1386
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:10,880
You know, and it's just, it's
something that's not really

1387
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:13,400
discussed, but it's, it's, it's
a remarkable culture, isn't it?

1388
01:22:16,120 --> 01:22:19,600
Yeah, it, it definitely is.
And the, you know, the more you

1389
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:24,160
travel the world, the more
glaring that becomes because,

1390
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:29,720
you know, you'll, it's amazing.
You you go to number places how

1391
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:32,640
many people speak English as
their, you know, as a second

1392
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:36,360
language just because of how
business is run.

1393
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:40,080
And yet, you know, we have
people here that have no clue,

1394
01:22:40,480 --> 01:22:43,240
you know, again, you know, where
to locate certain places on a

1395
01:22:43,240 --> 01:22:46,000
map or, or how to act when they
travel.

1396
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:51,200
And so, yeah, it, it, like I
said, it's, it's interesting

1397
01:22:51,200 --> 01:22:57,480
when you see people stumbling
through certain places and, you

1398
01:22:57,480 --> 01:23:01,240
know, I've, I've always enjoyed
learning each of the cultures,

1399
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:05,080
you know, in places where I've
worked to try and, and, you

1400
01:23:05,080 --> 01:23:09,200
know, respect, you know, respect
their, their customs and norms

1401
01:23:09,200 --> 01:23:12,440
and everything else to make sure
that I'm not the quintessential

1402
01:23:12,440 --> 01:23:14,200
ugly American travelling
someplace.

1403
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:16,720
But there's no place like home
at the same time.

1404
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:21,560
That's very true, there's no
doubt about it.

1405
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:24,760
Yeah, I went to, I was in, I
went on a honeymoon a couple of

1406
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:26,800
years ago.
We went to Greece, Italy and

1407
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:29,320
Ireland for that, for our
honeymoon.

1408
01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:32,320
It was a ton of fun.
And I've never been, I've been

1409
01:23:32,320 --> 01:23:36,280
to Dublin once before that.
And, you know, we're in Gree.

1410
01:23:36,280 --> 01:23:41,000
I think we're in, we're in Italy
and we're talking to, we're

1411
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:43,200
talking to a couple of stranger,
a couple on the street that we'd

1412
01:23:43,200 --> 01:23:44,560
met.
We were, you know, we just,

1413
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:48,760
we're just hanging out with.
And it was at a bar and they

1414
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:52,320
said, what do you call someone
that speaks 3 languages?

1415
01:23:53,440 --> 01:23:56,480
I'm like trilingual.
They're like, yeah, we call

1416
01:23:56,480 --> 01:23:59,800
someone that speaks 2 languages
like bilingual, like in someone

1417
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:03,920
that speaks one language.
I'm like American.

1418
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:09,720
And I was like, oh man, you
guys, you guys really didn't

1419
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:13,280
have to do much like that.
That cut deep, but it's funny.

1420
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:14,480
It's true.
It's funny, you know.

1421
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:16,520
We're talking about, we're
talking, you know, we're talking

1422
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:20,000
and you know, and we were in
Italy and another couple came up

1423
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:22,240
and asked a question.
Tell me, I wanted to actually

1424
01:24:22,240 --> 01:24:27,360
ask you about work life balance
because I, I presume based on

1425
01:24:27,360 --> 01:24:29,160
everything you're telling me,
you've got a family, including

1426
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:31,920
the fact that, you know, your
kid went to college and, you

1427
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:35,760
know, in, in New Orleans and
another kid in California.

1428
01:24:37,560 --> 01:24:40,440
What was work life balance like?
I know that there's a good

1429
01:24:40,440 --> 01:24:45,160
newfound, you know, almost like
it's almost like part of

1430
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:47,840
everyday life no matter what.
But I'm sure that wasn't the

1431
01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:50,600
case while you're working
security or at the agency.

1432
01:24:51,480 --> 01:24:53,680
So what'd you do?
Yeah, no.

1433
01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:57,280
So you're right.
You know, way back in the day,

1434
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:01,520
work life balance wasn't a term
that anybody used.

1435
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:08,280
So and you know, initially, as I
said, my wife is in the agency

1436
01:25:08,280 --> 01:25:11,880
too.
So she knew what she was getting

1437
01:25:11,880 --> 01:25:14,480
into with me, that I'd be
disappearing for weeks at a

1438
01:25:14,480 --> 01:25:18,440
time.
And you mentioned you recently

1439
01:25:18,440 --> 01:25:22,520
got married.
I disappeared like for three

1440
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:25,440
weeks right before the wedding,
you know, in the crunch time

1441
01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:29,480
wedding planning and I was gone
on a three-week Middle East

1442
01:25:29,480 --> 01:25:31,840
trip.
So I wasn't too popular at home

1443
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:34,480
for that one.
But so but she knew what she was

1444
01:25:34,480 --> 01:25:38,000
getting into the lifestyle I was
in her her father was a police

1445
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:39,880
officer, her brother was a
police officer.

1446
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:45,640
So she she knew about that.
And then when, you know, Fast

1447
01:25:45,640 --> 01:25:48,760
forward a few years and we
started having kids, same thing.

1448
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:53,960
She, you know, she ended up, she
worked initially and then we did

1449
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:55,640
the math.
And it wasn't the math wasn't

1450
01:25:55,640 --> 01:25:57,680
mapping and it wasn't making
sense for her to continue

1451
01:25:57,680 --> 01:26:00,080
working.
She'd left the agency by that

1452
01:26:00,080 --> 01:26:03,240
point.
She'd been at one point, she'd

1453
01:26:03,440 --> 01:26:07,160
just been lured away by private
industry for, you know, they

1454
01:26:07,160 --> 01:26:10,080
were looking to hire people that
had security clearances, you

1455
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:13,160
know, some of these Beltway, you
know, companies that were doing

1456
01:26:13,160 --> 01:26:17,320
work with the government.
So she'd left the agency and

1457
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:20,120
then eventually when we had
kids, it didn't make sense for

1458
01:26:20,120 --> 01:26:22,120
her to work anymore.
So she was home with the kids.

1459
01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:25,360
We were fortunate enough to to
have that, you know, be the

1460
01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:26,840
case.
But I would be for.

1461
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:28,880
America, you could do that.
Yeah, right.

1462
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:33,040
It was a back, it was a while
ago, but then I was, you know,

1463
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:36,800
transitioning to corporate
America where as I mentioned

1464
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:41,640
before, I was still travelling
extensively overseas quite

1465
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:45,360
often.
So, you know, she, she took on

1466
01:26:45,360 --> 01:26:50,440
the burden of, of the family at
at that point and I'd be present

1467
01:26:50,440 --> 01:26:53,840
when I could be.
Then as you know, you know, the

1468
01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:58,120
corporate life continued and I
got more senior in my position.

1469
01:26:58,120 --> 01:27:00,000
I didn't have to travel
necessarily as much because I

1470
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:05,280
had teams that were doing it.
And then, you know, all the way

1471
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:10,040
up to more recently when work
life balance became an actual

1472
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:12,200
issue.
But of course, you know, over

1473
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:16,480
the last, you know, 5-6 years,
we had the COVID, you know,

1474
01:27:16,480 --> 01:27:20,640
issue hit and then working
remotely became a thing that

1475
01:27:20,640 --> 01:27:25,320
didn't exist before.
So that was a big pivot to be

1476
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:28,000
able to say, OK, now our kids
were older at this point.

1477
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:32,880
But again, you know, being able
to work, literally work from

1478
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:38,760
anywhere has been beneficial.
And, you know, it's, it's

1479
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:42,400
completely different world now
for for my kids, the three of

1480
01:27:42,400 --> 01:27:45,920
them in their careers, two of
them work fully remote.

1481
01:27:47,440 --> 01:27:51,360
And yeah, and they and they have
thriving careers and they're

1482
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:54,360
able to do that.
And quite frankly, I worked, I

1483
01:27:54,360 --> 01:27:58,880
was, you know, mostly remote
for, for the vast majority of

1484
01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:04,280
the pandemic, you know, before
we started going back.

1485
01:28:04,320 --> 01:28:07,800
And even then, you know, now,
now I'm in the office four days

1486
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:14,200
a week because I screwed up.
I retired, I, I served 12 years

1487
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:18,040
as a chief security officer for
one of the big three automotive

1488
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:25,160
companies here in Detroit.
I retired in last year thinking,

1489
01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:27,880
knowing that I would probably
get back in the game at some

1490
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:30,240
point.
And that's when I wrote the book

1491
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:33,440
and did all that.
And then I screwed up one day

1492
01:28:33,440 --> 01:28:37,160
and answered the phone call from
a headhunter and I got, I got

1493
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:41,320
dragged back into the corporate
world and I'm really enjoying a

1494
01:28:41,800 --> 01:28:48,120
totally new field right now.
But, but so now I'm balancing.

1495
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:53,920
I am, I'm the vice president of
security, safety and loss

1496
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:59,320
prevention for a very large
global in our space, the largest

1497
01:29:00,360 --> 01:29:02,720
restaurant chain in our, in our
space.

1498
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:07,320
So, so it's a it's a new world
for me being in the, you know,

1499
01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:11,360
the restaurant type world.
But so I'm now balancing, you

1500
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:15,920
talk about work life balance,
I'm balancing, you know, you

1501
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:21,280
know, running a global operation
with my family obligations here,

1502
01:29:21,440 --> 01:29:25,600
you know, a brand new grandchild
and then, you know, then now

1503
01:29:25,600 --> 01:29:27,720
this, my burgeoning author
career as well.

1504
01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:30,680
Well, congratulations on the
grandchild.

1505
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:31,920
Thank you.
Yeah.

1506
01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:33,720
Very exciting.
Yeah.

1507
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:36,280
Yeah, yeah.
Do you?

1508
01:29:36,280 --> 01:29:42,240
Did you ever talk to you?
But it was, I guess my question

1509
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:44,720
is, it was just from an
emotional level.

1510
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:47,920
It was just a reality that dad's
busy, Dad's working, dad's out

1511
01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:51,040
of the house.
Or how did you feel as dad, you

1512
01:29:51,040 --> 01:29:53,640
know, for particular events
being away for weeks?

1513
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:57,120
Yeah, I, I mean, I tried, I
tried my best, as I'm sure you

1514
01:29:57,120 --> 01:30:01,480
do, and and others that, you
know, to be present when I could

1515
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:05,200
for major events and all that.
I don't think I missed, you

1516
01:30:05,200 --> 01:30:08,160
know, I, I know I missed some
Christmases, you know, when I

1517
01:30:08,160 --> 01:30:10,920
was out on assignment and, and
things like that.

1518
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:15,200
And I'm sure I've missed
birthdays, but but I tried to be

1519
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:18,320
as present as possible when I
could be.

1520
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:21,320
It was interesting when my
grandchild, my granddaughter was

1521
01:30:21,320 --> 01:30:26,680
born, my son-in-law, my daughter
obviously had, you know, long

1522
01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:30,800
maternity leave.
My son-in-law had an equally

1523
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:35,320
long paternity leave, which
didn't exist, which absolutely

1524
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:38,920
did not exist when, you know,
when my kids were born, you

1525
01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:44,240
know, 25 years ago and more.
So I think I, I think I was off

1526
01:30:44,240 --> 01:30:48,600
for a day and 1/2 or something
to help out when I was back at

1527
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:49,760
it.
Yeah, exactly.

1528
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:56,520
So, so, so it's different, but
again, you know, you have, you

1529
01:30:56,520 --> 01:30:59,680
have to be thoughtful and
intent, you know, attentive to

1530
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:02,600
when you are home, that you are
present with the kids.

1531
01:31:02,600 --> 01:31:07,320
And you know, again, I'm, I'm
the last one to give, you know,

1532
01:31:07,320 --> 01:31:11,880
parenting advice, but we've,
we've been blessed and, and

1533
01:31:11,880 --> 01:31:16,360
successful with our family and,
and, you know, we had, we had

1534
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:19,600
the support of other family
members to help when, when

1535
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:21,560
needed.
And it was just a different

1536
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:25,720
world than it is today.
It was, you know, it's funny, I,

1537
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:29,360
I was talking to a friend of
mine this weekend and she was,

1538
01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:31,240
and, you know, they were
complaining, him and his wife

1539
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:34,160
were complaining that, you know,
their family lives a little far

1540
01:31:34,160 --> 01:31:37,760
away in another state.
And they feel bad saying that

1541
01:31:37,760 --> 01:31:39,720
they're kids.
They have like I think 3 kids

1542
01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:42,640
under the age of 5 or 6.
They said they feel bad saying

1543
01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:44,720
their kids take up all their
energy because they know how

1544
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:47,120
wonderful it is.
But I said, I said to them, I

1545
01:31:47,120 --> 01:31:49,640
was like, you guys are living in
one of the first generations in

1546
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:53,960
history, you know, where family
doesn't just like, move in with

1547
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:56,200
you and help out or you don't
move in with family and like,

1548
01:31:56,320 --> 01:31:58,680
like, you guys don't live
together as one big unit where

1549
01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:00,040
everyone helps take care of each
other.

1550
01:32:00,160 --> 01:32:02,480
You know, like, this is one of
the first times ever that

1551
01:32:02,920 --> 01:32:06,440
someone moves, you know, away
from a different state, you

1552
01:32:06,440 --> 01:32:11,120
know, from their parents and has
kids and is just left by

1553
01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:13,520
themselves in this new state
trying to raise the kids by

1554
01:32:13,520 --> 01:32:15,400
themselves.
I was like, you shouldn't feel

1555
01:32:15,400 --> 01:32:18,280
bad about being exhausted.
Isn't, you know, like the world

1556
01:32:18,280 --> 01:32:21,040
didn't, I don't think the world
really, you know, like you said,

1557
01:32:21,040 --> 01:32:23,000
when you were gone, you had
other family members that were

1558
01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:24,720
able to, that were able to help
step up.

1559
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:27,920
You know, but that's true.
Yeah.

1560
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:32,520
And you're right.
The, the, no, I, my family, we

1561
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:38,400
had moved, you know, away from,
from my parents family support.

1562
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:40,960
So it was a big deal for us to
see our grandparents.

1563
01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:45,680
You know, it was a once a year
thing that, that I, I always

1564
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:48,280
thought it was so cool to, you
know, it was exciting to go see

1565
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:51,320
your grandparents.
And I couldn't understand how,

1566
01:32:51,480 --> 01:32:55,320
you know, my, my friends, they
see their grandparents every

1567
01:32:55,320 --> 01:32:57,440
weekend.
You know, they live next door,

1568
01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:00,200
they live down the block.
And that was totally foreign to

1569
01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:04,160
me.
And then the way our lifestyle

1570
01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:08,440
has developed, my, my brothers,
there's three of us and we live,

1571
01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:10,720
you know, across the country
from each other.

1572
01:33:10,720 --> 01:33:15,160
So my my one brother still lives
in California, where we grew up,

1573
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:18,080
But the other one is lives on an
island off the coast of

1574
01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:20,880
Washington State.
And I'm out here in Detroit.

1575
01:33:20,880 --> 01:33:25,200
But I spent, you know, I spent
almost 20 years and well,

1576
01:33:25,200 --> 01:33:29,960
actually more than that between
Washington and and New Jersey.

1577
01:33:29,960 --> 01:33:34,400
And so, you know, we're used to
having families spread around

1578
01:33:34,400 --> 01:33:37,400
and then valuing our time
together when we can get

1579
01:33:37,400 --> 01:33:41,640
together with everyone.
And we're making more of an

1580
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:46,000
effort now to do that to, to,
you know, have I heard it

1581
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:49,880
called, you know, experiential
rather than, you know, Christmas

1582
01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:52,920
is where we, you know, the, the
girls don't need another purse.

1583
01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:54,240
The guys don't need another
watch.

1584
01:33:55,160 --> 01:33:58,960
You know, So the last few years
we've been thoughtful about, OK,

1585
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:01,960
at Christmas, we're going to all
go together on a trip someplace

1586
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:07,400
and go, you know, scuba diving
and, and, you know, or what

1587
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:10,720
whatever the case may be, go on
a cruise one year we did.

1588
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:14,280
So, you know, just trying to be
together when we can.

1589
01:34:14,320 --> 01:34:17,080
It's so funny you say that
because you know, I, I, my, my,

1590
01:34:17,160 --> 01:34:19,360
the.
The, my, my primary job is I do

1591
01:34:19,360 --> 01:34:21,800
sales.
And so even though I've, I've

1592
01:34:21,800 --> 01:34:24,840
been work, I've been working
remote since 2019, since before

1593
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:30,440
it's cool.
And you know, and I, and so even

1594
01:34:30,440 --> 01:34:32,720
though I'm always remote, I'm
never off the clock.

1595
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:36,360
And so for our anniversary this
past year, you know, we had a 1

1596
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:38,600
1/2 year old and my wife was
expecting and we had no idea,

1597
01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:42,440
you know, like it just kind of
snuck up on us and I put my

1598
01:34:42,440 --> 01:34:44,440
phone away for the first time.
I was like, I'm just not going

1599
01:34:44,440 --> 01:34:46,320
to take any calls today.
We're just going to go to the

1600
01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:48,520
beach and just walk, you know,
we live 5 miles from the beach,

1601
01:34:48,520 --> 01:34:51,920
but we never go there, you know,
and we had such a pleasant day

1602
01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:54,400
where we just acted like
tourists in South Florida and I

1603
01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:56,920
just put my phone away for just
the day and we just spent time

1604
01:34:56,920 --> 01:35:01,400
together and it was so it was so
wonderful, you know, and I'm and

1605
01:35:01,400 --> 01:35:03,720
I'm and I'm craving for that.
And, you know, and like, you

1606
01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:06,160
know, I'm thinking the next time
I could take a vacation like

1607
01:35:06,160 --> 01:35:11,680
that because I, I, I really do,
you know, I, I think that

1608
01:35:12,040 --> 01:35:13,920
there's always a give and take
and we always take certain

1609
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:17,640
things for granted.
But I, you know, I think that

1610
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:19,960
everyone reaches a point in
their lives where it, it could

1611
01:35:19,960 --> 01:35:23,520
have been earlier or later, But,
you know, where, where the

1612
01:35:24,480 --> 01:35:27,600
quality of what you're doing
matters so much more than like,

1613
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:30,240
you know, the amount of money
you spent to get there or where

1614
01:35:30,240 --> 01:35:32,280
you're eating or what you're
doing or something like that.

1615
01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:36,520
You know, 100%, I agree.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

1616
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:37,600
Yeah.
So tell me about scuba.

1617
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:39,840
Diving real quick before we
before we hang up because.

1618
01:35:40,080 --> 01:35:42,120
Apparently there's a passion of
yours and I would love to hear

1619
01:35:42,120 --> 01:35:44,600
about it.
It is and it's.

1620
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:46,480
Something my.
Wife got sick of me talking

1621
01:35:46,480 --> 01:35:49,920
about SO.
I remember again, so it might

1622
01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:53,800
have been our way back when on
our anniversaries, we used to

1623
01:35:53,800 --> 01:35:57,800
just try and get away.
So this was probably our second

1624
01:35:58,080 --> 01:36:00,400
or third anniversary.
I think we we might have had one

1625
01:36:00,400 --> 01:36:02,960
kid that we left with my with my
mom.

1626
01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:06,920
And we went out to Catalina
Island and spent the weekend up

1627
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:10,080
there.
And I was walking down the pier

1628
01:36:10,440 --> 01:36:12,640
and the guy said, hey, you want
to try scuba diving?

1629
01:36:12,640 --> 01:36:14,640
I said sure.
And he said, OK, put this on,

1630
01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:17,360
put this on, put this on.
Breathe through this, let's go.

1631
01:36:17,360 --> 01:36:20,720
And we jumped in the water.
I don't know how I didn't drown.

1632
01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:24,680
And then, you know, Fast
forward.

1633
01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:27,840
Yeah, Fast forward.
And I didn't drown, thankfully.

1634
01:36:27,840 --> 01:36:32,920
And Fast forward, you know, 30
some years later, I was still

1635
01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:36,040
talking about, you know, wanting
to do that for real and learn

1636
01:36:36,040 --> 01:36:39,720
how to do it.
And we had a couple of tropical

1637
01:36:39,720 --> 01:36:43,080
trips lined up, kind of what I
was just talking about, you

1638
01:36:43,080 --> 01:36:44,600
know, what we're doing with the
family.

1639
01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:47,840
And she said, will you shut up
and just do it already?

1640
01:36:47,840 --> 01:36:51,120
And I'm like, you know, I'm 60
years old and, you know, can I

1641
01:36:51,120 --> 01:36:54,080
really do this at 60?
And it turns out I could.

1642
01:36:54,120 --> 01:36:56,560
And I fell in love with it.
Yeah.

1643
01:36:56,560 --> 01:37:00,640
I absolutely loved it.
And so I've really gotten into

1644
01:37:00,640 --> 01:37:03,040
it.
And every opportunity I can, I'm

1645
01:37:03,160 --> 01:37:06,680
I'm diving, even though I tend
to get seasick and I have to

1646
01:37:06,680 --> 01:37:09,680
deal with all that problems once
I'm under the water.

1647
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:12,800
And you know, it's, you know,
that whole new world and there's

1648
01:37:12,800 --> 01:37:17,320
a technical challenge to it that
I find exciting and, you know,

1649
01:37:17,320 --> 01:37:19,760
making sure that I get down
there and get back up without

1650
01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:24,600
any drama.
And so I've, I've done, I've

1651
01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:27,280
gotten, you know, wreck
certified, you know, diving

1652
01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:31,840
wrecks down in South Florida.
And and you know, I've, I've go.

1653
01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:34,120
You have to let me know.
I would.

1654
01:37:34,400 --> 01:37:35,560
Are you a diver?
I'd love to.

1655
01:37:35,560 --> 01:37:38,120
Well, I'm not a diver, but you
could teach me.

1656
01:37:38,120 --> 01:37:39,440
And if not, I'll have you open.
Yeah, I could.

1657
01:37:40,120 --> 01:37:43,360
I could definitely you.
Know I could, I can, you know.

1658
01:37:43,360 --> 01:37:44,440
Influence you?
Yeah.

1659
01:37:45,120 --> 01:37:47,000
So yeah, I love diving down in
the Keys.

1660
01:37:47,640 --> 01:37:49,960
So I've done a lot of diving
down there.

1661
01:37:50,320 --> 01:37:53,800
I dove overseas every time we go
on vacation I I find the

1662
01:37:53,800 --> 01:37:56,920
opportunity to dive.
I dove in Turkey and Greece and

1663
01:37:57,600 --> 01:38:02,720
places like that.
I I've dove in Missouri.

1664
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:04,840
You wouldn't think there's a
place to dive in Missouri, but

1665
01:38:04,840 --> 01:38:07,240
there is.
It's it may be closed now I'm

1666
01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:09,400
not sure.
Called the bond Terre mine.

1667
01:38:09,400 --> 01:38:15,680
It's an old Civil War LED mine
that's got, you know, it's 160

1668
01:38:15,680 --> 01:38:20,160
feet deep of crystal Clearwater
and and it's like an underground

1669
01:38:20,320 --> 01:38:22,680
lake.
So it's not cave diving because

1670
01:38:22,680 --> 01:38:24,280
you can't, you can't get to the
surface.

1671
01:38:24,280 --> 01:38:27,000
But it's a, it's this
underground lake now.

1672
01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:30,240
It's a, it's, you know, an old
guy like me, it's rough.

1673
01:38:30,240 --> 01:38:33,640
You're, you're humping all your
gear down, you know, a quarter

1674
01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:37,720
mile underground to get to the
dive platform to then dive this

1675
01:38:37,720 --> 01:38:40,720
thing and then have to haul
everything back out again.

1676
01:38:41,160 --> 01:38:43,560
But that was a unique and
different experience.

1677
01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:48,480
So have you, have you been to
Crater Lake in Oregon or

1678
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:50,160
Colorado?
I have not, no.

1679
01:38:50,640 --> 01:38:52,320
Yeah.
Do you know what it is?

1680
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:54,000
Are you familiar?
With it, Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1681
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:55,720
Yeah.
Yeah, I do, people.

1682
01:38:55,720 --> 01:38:57,520
Do people dive there?
Because that's like.

1683
01:38:58,040 --> 01:39:03,680
I think the size of a mountain.
Yeah, I, I think, I think, I'm

1684
01:39:03,680 --> 01:39:06,120
sure somebody.
Has, but again, you have to get

1685
01:39:06,120 --> 01:39:08,280
all your gear up there and all
that kind of stuff.

1686
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:10,200
So but you could drop them to
the surface.

1687
01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:13,440
I mean, I, I drove, I, I, I
took, I used to live in in.

1688
01:39:13,440 --> 01:39:17,160
Washington and I I drove down to
San Francisco once to meet a

1689
01:39:17,160 --> 01:39:19,600
buddy.
We took one to go South.

1690
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:24,840
We took five more inland on the
way up and then on the way up we

1691
01:39:24,880 --> 01:39:27,640
took we stopped at Crater Lake
and.

1692
01:39:28,240 --> 01:39:31,000
I'm not.
Exaggerating when I say within

1693
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:36,360
45 minutes, the temperature went
from being 115�� in desert to to

1694
01:39:36,400 --> 01:39:41,080
being snow covered mountain tops
with, you know, with this

1695
01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:43,600
beautiful lake that's just in
the center of it.

1696
01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:46,120
But I mean, you can, you can
walk right up to the surface of

1697
01:39:46,120 --> 01:39:49,280
the lake if you wanted.
I'm sure, I'm sure there's

1698
01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:51,880
people that dive it then, you
know, and here in Michigan.

1699
01:39:52,320 --> 01:39:55,680
We have tremendous wreck diving
and, and they're, they're not

1700
01:39:56,240 --> 01:40:01,000
purpose built, you know, wrecks
that were sunk on purpose to be

1701
01:40:01,000 --> 01:40:05,560
a reef like like in, in Florida,
the Spiegel Grove and, and the

1702
01:40:05,560 --> 01:40:08,600
Dwayne and, and some of these
massive wrecks that are down

1703
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:13,720
there, up here, they're, you
know, 1800 vintage.

1704
01:40:14,040 --> 01:40:17,280
You know, wooden schooners that
went down in the Great Storm of

1705
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:21,520
1913 or something like that.
And so there's and it's fresh,

1706
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:24,280
cold, fresh water.
So they're extremely well

1707
01:40:24,280 --> 01:40:26,360
preserved.
So there's some fantastic wreck

1708
01:40:26,360 --> 01:40:31,200
diving up here in Michigan and
Lake Huron and Lake, MI and

1709
01:40:31,200 --> 01:40:34,440
others that that I've enjoyed,
you know, diving some of those

1710
01:40:34,440 --> 01:40:37,560
racks.
So, yeah, so I that that's a

1711
01:40:37,600 --> 01:40:41,440
whole another podcast, but I can
talk about diving a lot and I

1712
01:40:41,440 --> 01:40:43,400
just continue to try to get
better at it.

1713
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:47,240
Honestly, it's as cool to me as
everything else you've spoken to

1714
01:40:47,240 --> 01:40:49,640
today, You know, I mean, I.
Find the whole, I found the

1715
01:40:49,640 --> 01:40:54,440
whole underwater world just so
captivating and so, so

1716
01:40:54,440 --> 01:40:57,880
mysterious, you know, and you're
in a perfect place for it down

1717
01:40:57,880 --> 01:40:59,160
there.
I was.

1718
01:40:59,560 --> 01:41:00,960
It's so funny because you
mentioned, you know.

1719
01:41:01,280 --> 01:41:02,960
Like a guy you know, an older
guy like me.

1720
01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:07,200
I read I was reading a biography
recently.

1721
01:41:07,200 --> 01:41:08,920
I hope.
I hopefully will have the author

1722
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:13,080
on the podcast soon, too, the
Grateful Dead biography.

1723
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:17,360
And Jerry Garcia, you know, who
is not known for his health

1724
01:41:17,360 --> 01:41:22,080
habits, to say the least, you
know, became an avid diver in

1725
01:41:22,080 --> 01:41:24,480
like 40s or 50s.
Yeah.

1726
01:41:24,480 --> 01:41:28,080
And he and he loved it and.
He said the.

1727
01:41:28,080 --> 01:41:31,240
Same thing and not the same
thing, but he said that, you

1728
01:41:31,240 --> 01:41:34,440
know, once he got underwater
because physically he was he was

1729
01:41:34,440 --> 01:41:38,120
in the worst condition, you
know, a person could really put

1730
01:41:38,120 --> 01:41:42,160
themselves into.
But you know, as underwater, he

1731
01:41:42,160 --> 01:41:44,640
was just like, it's another
universe.

1732
01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:48,400
And even the way that you move
and the way that you function

1733
01:41:48,400 --> 01:41:51,200
and and your interaction with
the world is so fundamentally

1734
01:41:51,200 --> 01:41:54,760
different that oh, yeah, it just
feels like a whole new life,

1735
01:41:54,760 --> 01:41:56,560
like you're just living a new
life under there.

1736
01:41:56,920 --> 01:42:01,520
So, yeah, maybe we'll maybe
we'll do Part 2 about scuba

1737
01:42:01,520 --> 01:42:04,720
diving or in a couple of months
and your next book is ready to

1738
01:42:04,720 --> 01:42:06,000
come out.
You can let me know.

1739
01:42:06,080 --> 01:42:08,240
I'd love to.
But Scott, this is it's so much

1740
01:42:08,240 --> 01:42:10,000
fun talking to you.
This is real pleasure.

1741
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:15,360
And, and I'm really excited for
to see what your career is going

1742
01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:17,280
to be, what your writing career
is going to become.

1743
01:42:18,040 --> 01:42:20,680
Thank you very much.
Look forward to checking out

1744
01:42:20,680 --> 01:42:23,120
your book, reading it, and
really diving.

1745
01:42:23,120 --> 01:42:25,440
In and then and then when.
I when I get a couple of beers

1746
01:42:25,440 --> 01:42:27,360
in you one time when you come to
South Florida, you'll tell me

1747
01:42:27,360 --> 01:42:29,040
what's made-up in the story and
what's not.

1748
01:42:30,200 --> 01:42:32,760
I'd be happy to do that.
I really appreciate you having

1749
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:34,080
me on.
I've very much.

1750
01:42:34,080 --> 01:42:35,800
Enjoyed it.
Thank you very much.

1751
01:42:36,000 --> 01:42:37,440
I hope there's a good podcast
experience.

1752
01:42:37,440 --> 01:42:39,040
You should have many more.
I'll talk to you soon.

1753
01:42:39,240 --> 01:42:40,320
It was great.
Thank you.

1754
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:41,640
Yeah.
Thank you.

1755
01:42:41,640 --> 01:42:41,960
Bye.
Bye.