#124: Justin Bocock / Homicide Detective / Secret Service / True Crime Author

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and we're Live with Justin
Bocock.

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Welcome and thank you for your
many, many years of service.

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I really appreciate it.
How are you?

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Good, good.
Thank you very much.

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I'm really, I'm really excited
to talk.

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I'm really excited to be in
touch.

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So you had 22 years in a
combined, over 22 years combined

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federal and local law
enforcement career, correct?

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Yes, correct.
And you want to tell me a little

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bit about how that started and
how you got into it?

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Yeah.
Yeah, You know, I really fell

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into law enforcement.
It just kind of happened.

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So I graduate.
I was born in Tucson, AZ and I

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graduated high school and
college really wasn't going to

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be my thing.
So I decided to join the Air

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Force.
Well, I ended up being an

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aircraft mechanic on large cargo
airplanes, C141 BS at McGuire

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Air Force Base, New Jersey.
And part of what we did there

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was we transported the limos for
presidential visits.

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So that's how I found out about
a thing called the the Secret

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Service Uniform Division.
So I did four years in the Air

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Force and I got out after four
years and I actually got a job

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working in Seattle where I did
heavy maintenance on United

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aircraft.
And before that I started

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applying with the United States
Secret Service Uniform Division.

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But it's about the uniform
division.

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So yeah, the uniform division is
basically, I didn't know what it

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was either until I talked to
them.

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They basically secure the
property.

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So agents will secure the people
and uniform division.

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We were responsible for, like
the residents, the motorcade,

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when it stops, if they go to a
hotel, we'll secure that hotel.

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If you've ever been to a
presidential event and you go

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through the magnetometers in the
beginning, so stuff that look

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for metal and weapons and things
like that, that's what uniform

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division does.
And we all could wore uniforms.

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You know, you have to go to the
White House and you see people

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with white shirts and a
presidential seal on their arm

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in black pants.
That's uniform division.

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Excellent.
And it took three years to get

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the security clearance for the
job.

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So I was out of the military for
a year and a half, living in

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Seattle, working on airplanes.
And I got a call at 4:00 in the

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morning and they said, hey, the
Academy starts in two weeks.

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We want you to be there.
And we need, we need a yes or no

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right now.
So of course I said yes, yes.

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And I packed my stuff up and
drove to Washington, DC, where I

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went through the Secret Service
Academy, graduated from there,

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and I was assigned to the Naval
Observatory, which is the

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official residence of the vice
president.

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And at the time, that was Al
Gore.

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I'm dating myself a little bit,
but I was in, I was, I would

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watch Al Gore's house when he
was there.

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I did that for about a year and
a half.

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Secret Service uniform division
was awesome, Great training.

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It was a lot of fun.
What was the training like?

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Can you tell me about the
training?

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Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, it it was.

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So you start your training in
Beltsville, MD, and then you go

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down to Fletzie, which is a
federal law enforcement training

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center in Glencoe, Georgia.
You go down there for 20 weeks

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and you get certified as a
federal police officer.

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And basically down there you
learn how to be a police

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officer.
We learned the laws, the federal

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laws, what we can and cannot do,
how to arrest somebody.

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It's basically like a police
Academy.

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We went through scenarios where
it was like a domestic violence

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call and you get called to it
and you had to figure out how

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you and your partner had to
figure out how to manage this

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situation.
They taught us driving,

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obviously shooting a lot of
firearm stuff, but it was your

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basic police type training.
So after you graduate that

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Academy, you go back to
Washington, DC or the Secret

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Service Academy is actually in
Beltsville, MD.

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And there we got specialized
training where it was.

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And honestly, we did a lot of
PTA, lot of physical training.

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We did a lot of running.
We had water survival stuff.

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And it was all centered around
protecting the person.

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So they would have a dummy that
would be the the same height and

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weight as Bill as Bill Clinton.
He was the president at the

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time.
And it would be like, OK, you're

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in a burning building, get him
out, figure out as a team how to

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get him out of the building.
Cool.

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We got to do all these things.
There was a lot of team building

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and it was great training.
I mean, we learned so many team

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building things and basic EMT
stuff and obviously firearms.

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And it was, it was it was
really, really good training.

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But your, your job is your
training for the thing that you

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hope never happens, right?
You're training for that thing

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that hopefully never happens.
And when I got to the Naval

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Observatory, it was really
boring.

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It was really boring.
And then you're going to lie, it

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was really boring.
It's a lot of sitting around and

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I'm like, and everybody I saw, I
was still in Academy mode.

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So somebody would walk by.
It's a public roadway right by

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the Naval Observatory there on
Massachusetts Ave.

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And they're walking by and I'm
watching them intently, you

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know, got the binoculars.
And nothing ever happens.

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And I'm not saying I wanted
things to happen.

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But you.
Go through, you know, you go

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through, you know, 40 plus weeks
of training.

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You want to do your job.
You're like, I'm, I'm ready.

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Like I've been in the scenarios
where a guy pops out with an

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AK47 and shoots paintball rounds
at me.

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I'm ready.
I'm ready to do this.

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Vigilant.
Do they change?

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Do they train you, train you how
to remain vigilant because they

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know that it's like you're going
to be boring 98% of the time or

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something like that?
Yeah, absolutely.

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And they do that in the
scenarios.

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So when I've said the AK47, they
obviously didn't shoot real

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guns, but everybody's probably
heard of it now.

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It's called simunitions.
And it's basically, it looks

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just like a bullet.
It has a very small amount of

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gunpowder, but it has a little
paint on the end and you can

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actually put it into regular
guns.

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So we would carry our regular
handgun, They would carry the

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bad guys would carry AK-40
Sevens or AR Fifteens or

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something a lot heavier than
what we had because we mainly

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carried handguns.
And they would say we would have

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scenarios where they would just
simply say, I want you to walk

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down the street and you're going
to lunch.

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You and your partner, you're on
break, walk down the street, go

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to lunch.
And we're in a controlled

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environment on, you know, the
Secret Service training Academy,

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which they have a whole, they
have like a three block city

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that they built there.
And some, some scenarios you

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walk down the street and you're
you're hand on gun.

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Like are you going to walk down
the street with your hand on

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your gun?
You know, I mean, you're in DC,

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you're going to lunch, just
walk, go to lunch.

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There are sometimes where you
would go and nothing would

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happen.
You would just walk to lunch and

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you'd walk in the door and
they'd go break scenarios over

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and you're kind of like, well,
what, what, what is that?

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Because like not every situation
is bad, but there's other times

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where they would say just walk
to lunch and you're walking down

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and all of a sudden literally
one of the one scenario that I

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had is a bank robbery occurred
right in front of us.

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You know, 2 trucks come out,
they people come out, automatic

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weapons.
And they're like, and the

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instructors behind you, like a
bank robbery's happening.

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What do you do?
Well, I guess we get involved.

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You know, we're uniformed police
officers.

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We have jurisdiction, we have
handguns.

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Let's get involved.
And you get into a gunfight with

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people with machine guns.
So your simple lunch turned into

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something horrific.
That's how they train you to be

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vigilant.
And it's the same thing in the

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in the, in the Police
Department, because that's the

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same thing.
It's 90% boredom, 10% sheer

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terror is you always have to
prepare and think for the worst.

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So you'll always be thinking
about the worst.

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And if you're always thinking
about the worst, if it happens,

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you're really not surprised,
you're really not shocked, you

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know?
So now, so we would always go to

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lunch in DC if you'd walk around
and you'd always think like,

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Hey, that black car that just
stopped, figure it out.

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What are you going to do?
Oh, I'm going to take a couple

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over here and I'm going to do
this and I'm going to do that.

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Like they already have a game
plan.

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So that's kind of how they,
they, they, they, they, they

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train you on that.
That's cool, that's cool.

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Do they have a high, do they
have a high turnover rate

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because of the reasons that you
left also?

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Or is it or you know from your
experience at least, or do

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people tend to stick around and
and stay there for a long time?

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From my experience, yes, from my
graduating class, there's very

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few people that were in there.
We all kind of because it, it is

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something where you don't need a
college degree to get into the

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uniform division.
You just need a high school

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diploma or military experience.
So I had the military

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experience.
I left and went to the local

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Police Department, ended up
going to college there and kind

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of moving on there.
A lot of people that I still

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keep in contact with, they went
to like NYPD, Boston Police

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Department.
I have two friends who were on

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who went to the FBI, one to the
DEAA, couple of them got their

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degrees and then transferred
over to the agent side of the

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speaker service.
So it's kind of a good stepping

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stone.
So when I was there, I don't

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know what it is now, when I was
there, it was kind of a high

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turnover rate because it was
kind of a stepping stone to get

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yourself into the federal
service.

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You know, you can kind of get an
idea of it.

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You get the training, get a name
for yourself, get a reputation,

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learn about how the federal
government works, and that helps

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you get other jobs.
I'm going to say the amount of

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training, the amount of money
and effort they put into

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training you, just to have you
to have people leave on average

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after, you know, a couple of
years feels a little crazy.

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But I guess the thing you're
getting trained in is applicable

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for the rest of your life
anyway.

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Especially if they figure that a
lot of people would just be

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rotating to other kind of law
enforcement or government roles.

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Yeah, I don't know the exact of
it, but that would make sense

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because it did take a lot.
I mean, I was a low level dude,

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but it did take, I imagine our
training cost a lot, a lot of

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money.
But like you said, very few

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people are going to go through
that kind of training because it

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took a mount of commitment to do
that.

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Like you had to say, I want to
be here because they they put

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you through the ringer mentally
and physically.

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And then, you know, test if you
failed to test, you were out.

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So I mean it the people who who
did it really wanted to be

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there.
I don't know anybody that I have

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ever heard of that I know of
that went through all that and

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then just said, you know what,
I'm going to go work at the

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Safeway and work in the grocery
store.

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You know what I mean?
They they kind of stayed within

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federal or within law
enforcement as a whole.

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So yeah, it's kind of a.
Yeah, reference East Coast.

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They won't get that, but I don't
think.

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Yeah, but I appreciate that.
That's very funny.

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Then I see, I see, I see
something.

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You know, if you decide to go
local.

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Yeah.
So again, I just happened to

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cross.
I was at the White House.

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Al Gore had gone to the had gone
to the White House for a meeting

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and I was in the motorcade park.
So we went over there and I was

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just hanging out protecting the
motorcade.

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And someone said, hey, you're
from Arizona.

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There's a guy from Mesa, AZ Mesa
Police Department.

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Have you ever heard of him?
That's like Mesa is a small

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00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,040
little town in outside of
Phoenix.

227
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,720
So I ended up just talking to
him and he was really cool.

228
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,080
He's like, we're a growing
police agency and we have this

229
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,240
and that and you know, we're,
we're getting a lot of new

230
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:25,720
equipment and all that.
I'm like, you know what, I'll go

231
00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:27,120
ahead and apply.
This was 2000.

232
00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,880
So I applied and I actually
ended up getting the call and

233
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:35,560
end up getting the job in early
2000, February of February of

234
00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:38,720
2001.
So I was so I ended up leaving

235
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,560
right after the inauguration in
2001 of Washington, DC and, and

236
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,440
I went back to Arizona and I
love the Secret Service and it

237
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,640
was great.
Like I said, it was just, it was

238
00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,560
boring.
I didn't have a lot of friends

239
00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:52,760
in like the DC area.
So I yeah.

240
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,960
What is it in DC like?
Did you like it?

241
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,760
Being in being from Arizona,
where I'm not, it's not big

242
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,960
city, it was really hard for me
to get used to the big city.

243
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,960
And I lived in Alexandria, VA,
but it was, yeah, everything is

244
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,640
hustle bustle.
Everything is kind of who are

245
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,320
your parents?
You know, like, oh, what school

246
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,560
did you know, what school did
you go to?

247
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,760
And you know, and what degree do
you have in here?

248
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,600
And, and if you're like, oh, I'm
from Arizona.

249
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:20,160
Oh yeah.
I don't know anybody from

250
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,040
Arizona.
You know, it's like it's kind of

251
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,760
if you've ever been to DC, you
kind of know that most people in

252
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,440
DC are all from DC.
Yeah, that's a stereotype,

253
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,160
right?
Yeah, yeah.

254
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,160
So it was kind of weird.
So I was a young person, I was

255
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,600
in my mid 20s and I really could
just kind of, I socially just

256
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,280
kind of wasn't fitting in.
So I was like, you know what,

257
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,720
maybe I'm going to head back to
the, maybe I'll head back back

258
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:43,960
West.
So I went there.

259
00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,840
Anyway, by the way, it's a
better, it's a better, it's a

260
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,680
better lifestyle, I think living
in Arizona than living in DC,

261
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:53,200
for sure.
Yeah, and I've been back to DC

262
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:58,800
since then, and it's cool.
Like it was a lot of fun, but

263
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,120
yeah, you're right.
Like, you know the cost of.

264
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,320
Place to visit, place to visit.
It's a place to check into.

265
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,760
I don't know about, you know,
living there, especially

266
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,320
lifestyle, you know, long term.
I mean, I don't know many people

267
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,840
that stick around DC forever.
They find the suburb or they or

268
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,800
they go to, you know, somewhere
else.

269
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:16,840
So you head.
So you headed back to Mesa, AZ.

270
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,240
Yeah, yeah.
So I, so I, so I come.

271
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,280
So I come to Mesa, AZ go to the
Academy there, police officer.

272
00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,080
So I do police uniformed police
officer for about 6 years on the

273
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,560
streets.
I'm a field training officer for

274
00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:31,720
a couple of those years.
So I'm training new officers in

275
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,160
it.
And I loved the police work.

276
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,560
So when I was in the Secret
Service a year and a half there,

277
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,440
I pulled my firearm twice, OK,
in the line of duty, like, you

278
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:42,880
know, for training it was all
the time.

279
00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:46,520
But you know, in actual real
life I had to draw my firearm

280
00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,920
and give commands twice.
My first day on the street after

281
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,920
graduating the Academy, I had
already pointed my gun at like 4

282
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,800
people and arrested, you know, 5
people.

283
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:56,960
No way.
What was the?

284
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:58,400
What?
What's the?

285
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:04,440
Difference policing was so much
different than, you know, than

286
00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:08,240
than the uniform division.
It was way more fast-paced, way

287
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,880
more, you know, I would say
exciting because it is, you

288
00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:12,400
know, it's kind of exciting when
you're a young guy.

289
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,480
It's exciting now.
I would be like, I'm not doing

290
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,200
that.
But yeah, when I was young, so I

291
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,320
was like, I really enjoyed it
and it was fun doing the police,

292
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,200
the street level policing, you
know, it was a lot of fun

293
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,120
getting out there and just
interacting with the with the

294
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:27,600
people and helping the
community.

295
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,920
You really, some days you really
felt like you help you help

296
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,560
people out, you know, you're
like, I, I really helped that

297
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,560
community this week.
You know, I really did a good

298
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:39,080
job on that, but I really
started liking investigations as

299
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,160
well.
I like getting a case and being

300
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,520
able to run with it.
But you can only go so far as a

301
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,080
patrol officer because you have
to, you know, answer 911 calls

302
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,360
and you have to cover your area.
So you really couldn't do all

303
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,280
that.
So I, I applied for detectives

304
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,360
in 2012.
No 2007, sorry, 2007.

305
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,960
I applied for detectives and
ended up getting, I tested into

306
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,800
the detective role and I started
out on the graveyard shift and I

307
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,760
was the beer run detective.
So I handled beer runs.

308
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,760
And so really, yeah.
So that's how you start.

309
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,280
You start out at the very
bottom.

310
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:14,560
So like, you know, beer.
Run.

311
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,160
What's that right?
What's the beer run detective

312
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,640
do?
So it's I say it's simple, but

313
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,400
so you get so a beer run
happens, right?

314
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,280
And it's all on video.
So then you would look for

315
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,440
distinguishing marks, like
tattoos, things like that.

316
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,240
I would look up other cases and
see if somebody matching that

317
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,400
description was possibly in that
area doing other crimes.

318
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:39,360
And then I would get possibly
like investigative leads, create

319
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,320
a photo lineup.
So I'd make you know where you

320
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,840
have 6 pictures and five, you
know, five of them are not the

321
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,800
person and one is.
And then I'd go to the clerks

322
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,240
and I'd show them that we're on
duty at the time and I'd show

323
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,160
them the photo line and say,
hey, do you recognize anybody?

324
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,840
And sometimes they go, yeah,
that dude right there, that's

325
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,400
the, that's the guy that came in
and, you know, grabbed 2 things

326
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,280
and, and ran out the door.
So then I would do the follow up

327
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:00,400
and I'd go and knock on their
door.

328
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,200
In Arizona, that's a
misdemeanor.

329
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,600
So it's a ticket.
It's not.

330
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,120
So I would literally knock on
their door and be like, hey, are

331
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,160
you so and so and yeah, well, On
this date and time, you stole

332
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:12,760
some beer from the Circle K and
the.

333
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,120
Last time you're like.
Yeah, yeah.

334
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,520
How do you judge me?
Well, it's on video and then

335
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,160
I'll get KC some ID and here's
your ticket.

336
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,160
You know, it's a misdemeanor
theft.

337
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,240
Wow.
And you know that kind of thing.

338
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,080
And that's that's how it started
out.

339
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,480
And then one you had an.
Experience like that though, no.

340
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,560
You really want to work with
people and really learn how to,

341
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,240
how to really, I guess you
really get your feet wet, you

342
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,520
know?
Yes, and it's like everything

343
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,120
you have to start small.
So by doing that you learn how

344
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,680
to go through video, you learn
how to do research on things.

345
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,040
You learn how to look up other
calls for service and try to

346
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,680
link cases together.
You learn how to make photo line

347
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,480
UPS.
You also learn that sometimes

348
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,720
these guys, sometimes you look
at it and you identify a person

349
00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,080
and you find out that they have
a threat, a threat risk to them,

350
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,760
like they're on parole or
they've, you know, they've shot

351
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,280
at cops before or they've been
arrested for violent.

352
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,240
So then you'd have to start
thinking, OK, this isn't just a

353
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,119
knock on the door.
You guys should get a couple

354
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,440
other detectives and we need to,
you know, you know, put our

355
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,119
bulletproof vest on and go knock
on.

356
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:15,839
This isn't just a suit and tie
knock.

357
00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:18,640
You know, this is an actual,
maybe we should approach it a

358
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,440
little bit differently so it
doesn't get your feet wet.

359
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,520
Ready for the big ones.
You know, I always say

360
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,720
everything we do is training us
for the next big one.

361
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,880
And that's that mentality from
the Secret Service.

362
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:30,640
You know, you always got to be
ready for when the big 1

363
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,800
happens.
And one night I was the only

364
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,560
detective on duty in my
division.

365
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,200
I was like 3 in the morning and
I hear on the radio, hot call

366
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,680
comes out and it's shooting.
Guy gets shot and he's laying in

367
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,440
the middle of the street.
Suspects running this and that.

368
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,040
And they call me because they
say, hey, we called the on call

369
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,280
detectives.
They're not coming out.

370
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,080
They said you got it and like
and like you got it.

371
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,600
I'm like, yeah, I got it.
I got it, sarge, I got this, I

372
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,160
got it.
So I'm like, I'm going to be a

373
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,400
real detective now, you know, So
I leave my desk and my beer runs

374
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,880
and I go out.
And yeah, so I, I got involved

375
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,120
in an aggravated assault or a
shooting case.

376
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,680
And I did a lot of work that
first night and I ended up

377
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,880
identifying A suspect.
And then the next morning I got

378
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,320
a couple hours sleep.
Next morning, the day shift

379
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,720
detectives came in, you know,
the real, the real detectives.

380
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,400
And I worked with the violent
crime guys and I said, hey, this

381
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,320
is what I got.
This is my game plan.

382
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:25,840
And they're like, dude, great
game plan, Let's make it happen.

383
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,920
And we got the guy in custody
that afternoon.

384
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,240
And that's when I fell in love
with violent crimes.

385
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:31,560
I'm like, that's what I want to
do.

386
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,360
Like I want to do violent crimes
so.

387
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,160
Was there a lot of that where
you were?

388
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,040
What's mess?
What's mess of Arizona like?

389
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,000
Is that Arizona?
So at the time, so it's, it's a

390
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,920
suburb of Phoenix.
So if you, you know, you always

391
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,200
have like a big city and like
little towns all around it.

392
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:45,880
Sure.
Yeah.

393
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,480
Right next to Phoenix is Tempe
and everything.

394
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,440
And that's where the Arizona
State University is.

395
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,720
And a lot of good music music
concerts are there too.

396
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:55,400
Great, great, great.
Yeah.

397
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,200
That's like the nightlife.
That's like the nightlife.

398
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:58,880
And then right next to that is
Mesa.

399
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,760
So at the time, it's grown a lot
since then.

400
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,400
But back in the early 2000s,
Mesa had a population of about

401
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,680
450,000.
Our Police Department was about

402
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,800
750 police officers.
So it was a fairly big area.

403
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:18,680
I worked the central area which
was the downtown area and also

404
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,560
the high crime area.
That's where I get all my

405
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,200
greenies most.
Downtown's a high crime, right?

406
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,160
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so we had a lot of gang

407
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,240
areas.
We had little pockets of of

408
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,840
Vadnais and that's and I liked
the central area.

409
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,440
The further out you went, it got
more residential, it got more

410
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,400
business.
We actually have, we actually

411
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,160
have an International Airport in
Mesa.

412
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,120
So very extremes of it.
You have the airport, but there

413
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:44,080
it's very mild crime.
A multiple crime happened in

414
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:51,560
kind of the downtown area, and
it wasn't violent, but you had

415
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,800
violent acts right now and then
you had robberies, you had

416
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,720
shootings, you had stuff like
that.

417
00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,080
A majority of what we did,
though, was, you know, just

418
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,680
regular calls for service and
domestic violence calls for

419
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:02,920
service.
Beer runs.

420
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,880
There's a lot of beer runs.
You build up relationships with

421
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,480
people throughout like, you
know, I guess quote UN quote

422
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,440
civilians or whatever that would
kind of get to know you or

423
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,960
people like in the more high
crime area that would come to

424
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,120
that you'd come to recognize.
Or was it just constantly just

425
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,640
deflection of new people?
Oh, that's a great question.

426
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,800
No, absolutely.
That's how you become a really

427
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,760
good cop.
Yeah.

428
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,840
The community, you can't do it
by yourself.

429
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,320
And I did.
I had a lot of the cigarette

430
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,040
stores and liquor stores that
would get robbed a lot when I

431
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,240
was in robbery.
I made good connections with

432
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,160
those guys and gave them my
phone number and said, hey,

433
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,200
anything suspicious you call me
directly.

434
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,240
And they'd call me about all
kinds of stuff and I'd pass it

435
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:44,720
on.
Like they would literally say,

436
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,720
hey, you know, two guys bought
some beer in my store and then

437
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,240
they went out back to drink it.
And he goes, I was just sweeping

438
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,400
the, you know, I was sweeping
the the sidewalk and I overheard

439
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,400
him talking about doing a
robbery on some guy in the

440
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,400
neighborhood.
So I'm like, OK, hey, Peg.

441
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,240
So we look at it.
We actually, we actually were

442
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,600
able to prevent a crime, you
know, from doing the whole

443
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,040
thing.
Yeah.

444
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,440
It's all about, it's all about
community.

445
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,600
It really is.
And policing is changed a little

446
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,200
bit because we used to have what
they called the community

447
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,760
policing model where we would
rely on the community to give us

448
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,320
information.
And that's also how we knew we

449
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,320
were doing a good job is when
the community.

450
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:24,600
We trust you guys enough to call
you.

451
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,120
Yes, exactly.
When your customer says you're

452
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:30,320
doing a good job, you know
you're doing a good job.

453
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,120
And then about halfway through
my career, we changed into the

454
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:38,880
Comstat model, where Comstat
actually started in New York and

455
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,760
it was under I think Bill
Bratton, but it was basically

456
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,040
where you use statistics to
solve crime.

457
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,720
So basically you look at a map
and say there's a bunch of

458
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,160
burglaries in this area.
So we're going to put all of our

459
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,680
resources in that area to solve
the burglaries, which makes

460
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,560
sense.
But when you're constantly

461
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,240
moving people around, you really
just push crime.

462
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,640
And if you solve crimes in one
area, it's still going to happen

463
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,280
in another.
So you go to the other.

464
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,240
I mean, and when you do that to
determine our success, we saw

465
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,000
how our numbers went down.
So we were kind of our own

466
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,720
customer.
So we would reduce the numbers

467
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,440
and then pat ourselves in the
back and say we're amazing, but

468
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,280
we're not getting the buy in
from the community.

469
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,440
You know, it's easier or it's I
think it's more efficient and

470
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,480
better when you have the
community telling you you're

471
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,400
doing a good job and not you
doing something and then saying,

472
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,160
you know what, I'm pretty
awesome.

473
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,400
I did a good job on that.
I would love to have a local cop

474
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,040
that I had a, you know, a
friendly association with that,

475
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,520
you know, I, that I could talk,
you know, that, that we, that we

476
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:40,920
could talk to, you know, about
anything.

477
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,000
But I, I, I feel like
associations of the cops in

478
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,040
general are just so like, oh
God, what's going to give you a

479
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,320
ticket for now?
You know, like.

480
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,160
Yeah.
You know, like and I try I

481
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,280
really go on my way to try to
be, you know, friendly or, you

482
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,360
know, nice and and even like,
you know, wave in the street

483
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:58,360
wave, whatever, you know, just,
you know, kind of be nice.

484
00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:00,560
Have a have a good day officer.
Thanks so much, whatever it is,

485
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,440
but I do think that it also
helps establish the sense of

486
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,240
trust within the community that
like that there's a sense of

487
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,560
we're, we're all, we're all
working together.

488
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,160
We're all like, you know, 11
crew.

489
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,200
You know, it almost feels that,
I mean, at at least growing up

490
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,000
in my association with it, it
was like, you know, the cops are

491
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,560
out to get, give you tickets are
out to get you, you know, and,

492
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,200
and, and I don't and I, I think
and like what you're saying,

493
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:28,160
it's, it's unfortunate that's
the case because everything

494
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,920
would really be a lot better if
it's a lot more collaborative.

495
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,120
Yes, and you're absolutely
right.

496
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:36,080
And and like I said, I've been a
cop and we've all been in jobs

497
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,480
where there's people who are
good in their job and there's

498
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,800
people who are bad in their job
or not very good at their job.

499
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,720
It's the same thing with police
officers.

500
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,640
I was always the police officer
that was very chatty and very

501
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,640
friendly.
You know, I'm I'm the guy that's

502
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,440
got a story for everything.
And I'll if you stop me on the

503
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,120
street and said hello, I'd chat
you up and we'd be best friends

504
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:55,280
and shaking hands and you know,
and next time I saw you, I'd be

505
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,840
like, Hey, what's up for him?
You know, you'd be hey, Officer

506
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,160
Bocock, hey, what's up?
Anything good Hacker Day?

507
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,280
I'm like, no, I'm just chilling.
But there are other cops who

508
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,400
just don't like that, you know,
And even we as cops knew who

509
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,320
they were.
They were just the sour bunch,

510
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:12,280
you know, and sometimes they're
the people who would be on the

511
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,240
streets forever because there's
some cops who don't change

512
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,360
areas.
They just stay in one spot and

513
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:19,800
just become bitter and angry.
And they're even better.

514
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,240
And, and if the public would be
feel any better about it,

515
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,440
they're bitter and angry to
their coworkers too.

516
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,160
It's not just, it's not just the
citizens, they're just angry

517
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,320
people.
And we've all met them.

518
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,800
I've been pulled over by them.
I've gotten tickets from them.

519
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,280
You know where you know, it's
just, that's just their

520
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,800
personality.
They are just, they're just sour

521
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,800
people.
And that's not just cops.

522
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:44,960
You go anywhere in the world,
any, any business you go into,

523
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,600
there's going to be nice people
and there's going to be people

524
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,040
who just don't like their job
and are just going to be that

525
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,080
way.
So it is unfortunate that they

526
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,400
that we can't all be like that,
you know what I mean?

527
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,200
But every personality is
different.

528
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,320
You don't and ask the other
team, you don't want a bunch of

529
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,680
me on the police departments
because I always said it's just

530
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,120
like the military, you know,
they always have, like I was Air

531
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:07,480
Force and you need a Marine or
an Army person and like, oh, you

532
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,320
didn't carry a gun.
That's true.

533
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,280
But if it weren't for me, you
would have to walk everywhere

534
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,000
you went.
Like, so if you wanted to go to

535
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,760
war overseas, you had to get on
our airplanes and fly over

536
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:18,840
there.
We need it.

537
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,720
And and when I'm overseas, I
need Marines and Army to protect

538
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,720
my base so I can fix my
airplane.

539
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,240
We all have a position.
So I was a very, I wouldn't say

540
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,360
a lenient cop, but a very
understanding cop.

541
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,840
You know, if I went to a party
call and it's a bunch of kids

542
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,120
underage partying, I'm not going
to sit here and say, OK,

543
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:41,280
everybody's getting a ticket.
I'm going to say you got called

544
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:42,360
on you.
You know what I'm saying?

545
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,680
I'm going to be cool through
this one time.

546
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,560
But if I get called again, my
boss is going to be is going to

547
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,080
want me to do something and I'm
going to pull everybody out and

548
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,840
I'm going to do a breathalyzer
test.

549
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,560
And if you're under 21 and you
have alcohol on you, I am going

550
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,240
to give you a ticket.
You know what I mean?

551
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,800
So don't take my kindness as
weakness.

552
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,120
But this is your 1.
You know, a lot of times like

553
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,880
we're so sorry, We're so sorry.
We'll turn the music down.

554
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,640
We will don't tell my parents,
but you just please be cool.

555
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,320
I and there are other people who
are not who would show up.

556
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,240
And if it was their call, if
they would lead on it and they

557
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:14,720
would say, oh, no, I want
everybody out.

558
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,960
We're giving everybody tickets
because they have to learn.

559
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,480
And that's just expression, you
know, So you different officers

560
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,200
handle things different ways,
but you can't have everybody

561
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,560
handle the world like me because
people would take it.

562
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,520
People have taken advantage of
me as a cop.

563
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,600
I have.
I've been nice to people and

564
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,240
they have just totally taken
advantage of me.

565
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,080
And I was like, well, I got, I
got duped and I got to go back.

566
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,360
Like you duped me.
And like, yeah, I did.

567
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:41,720
Everybody has their place.
What?

568
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,560
Do you want to do about it?
The problem is, and I guess this

569
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,480
is my own little thing, I have
too much.

570
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,360
I have too hard of I have too
hard of a time pushing back

571
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:54,720
against authority to really even
to even, you know, consider like

572
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,360
if you came up to me and you're
like, I'll give you a break.

573
00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:58,040
I'm like, Oh my God, what a
hero.

574
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,160
You know, like I wouldn't think
like he had nothing on me

575
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,480
anyway.
You know, I wouldn't know.

576
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,880
I wouldn't, I don't, I don't
think like that.

577
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,160
But I guess there are plenty of
people that do.

578
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,400
And so I guess like you say, you
got to mix and match your

579
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,640
personalities that you're
dealing with.

580
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,880
Yes, yeah, everybody, everybody
has their puzzle piece that fits

581
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,400
in the puzzle, that makes it a
good puzzle.

582
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:19,520
Yeah, But you got, you got to
have people like me, but you

583
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,320
guys also have to have those,
you know, those hardcore cops,

584
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,440
None of them, none of us like to
deal with them.

585
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,720
But if you're in a but I'll tell
you what, if you're in a hostage

586
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,280
situation or a tough situation,
that's.

587
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:30,720
Oh yeah, you want that?
You know what I mean?

588
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,280
That's the dude you want, not
me, who's like, well, let's talk

589
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:34,680
it out.
You want him?

590
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,320
He's like, you know, we're
breaking the door in and we're

591
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,360
shooting everybody like, oh, OK,
yeah.

592
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What's I wanted to ask, and I

593
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,920
don't know if you have any
experience or known or read

594
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,360
anything or know anything about
this or personal experience, but

595
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,040
what, what's, what's corruption
like within the police world?

596
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,520
You know, that's a great
question.

597
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,840
So I will say this, East Coast,
East Coast policing and West

598
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,240
Coast policing way different.
So when I was in the Secret

599
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:07,440
Service, we were allowed to take
free stuff, at least back then.

600
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,560
I don't know what their policy
is now, but this is back in

601
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,360
1998.
So like for example, we would go

602
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,800
on details.
There was some senator died when

603
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,720
I was in when I was in and we
ended up going to I got we did a

604
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,480
detail to Massachusetts where
they buried them and President

605
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,080
Clinton went up.
He wanted to go to the funeral.

606
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,240
So he's in the funeral and I was
outside uniform region securing

607
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,640
the motorcade while he's in the
funeral.

608
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,800
So we have to there's uniform
division.

609
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,200
And that was my job was to stand
there and people would come up

610
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,320
to the rope line and they'd ask
like, oh, is that the limo?

611
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,640
Like, Yep, sure is.
Well, people would come up and

612
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,160
say, Hey, you know, we know who
you are.

613
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,240
Your Secret Service.
Here's some free coffee, you

614
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,640
know.
And that's nice.

615
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,840
Thank you very much.
Like, I really appreciate that.

616
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,760
You know, they're like, hey, you
know, I'm going to give you guys

617
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,480
a box of Donuts.
Is that OK?

618
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,480
Like absolutely, it's OK.
You know, they were completely

619
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,200
cool with that.
And I'm not saying that it's

620
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,600
that that's good or that's bad.
That's just how it was Sure I.

621
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,280
Wouldn't I Wouldn't be good.
OK.

622
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,040
I could see if someone came up
to you and gave you 500 bucks

623
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,240
and was like, hey, you know,
took a couple of minutes.

624
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,120
That's something else than
giving you a coffee or a

625
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:12,840
doughnut.
No.

626
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,240
Because it could be, it could be
perceived as some sort of

627
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,120
favoritism.
So let's say that person that

628
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,560
gives us coffee and doughnuts,
let's say later that afternoon

629
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,080
they do something where I have
to intervene and maybe I have to

630
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:27,960
put them in handcuffs.
Like let's say they move their

631
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,640
car in front of motorcade or
something along those lines,

632
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:31,800
right?
And I'm like, you know, you need

633
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,440
to move right now.
Oh, I was cool to you.

634
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,840
I gave you Donuts and you're
going to do this to me?

635
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,160
It kind of puts you as the cop
in a bad spot.

636
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,720
So it.
I hear that that's.

637
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,440
Always the best thing.
Well, in Mesa they were big.

638
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,160
Even in the Mesa Police Academy,
they would test you where they

639
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:51,840
would.
First off, the Mesa Police

640
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,760
Department policy was and still
is, You don't take anything for

641
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,680
free.
There is no gratuity at all.

642
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,160
If you find money, you turn it
in.

643
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,520
They would test us.
They had vending machines at the

644
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,360
Academy and if you bought
something from the vending

645
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,040
machine, they would put extra
change in there.

646
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:13,120
So if you bought for $0.50, you
put a dollar in and $0.50 and a

647
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,320
penny come out.
You have to take that $0.50 and

648
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,680
that penny.
You have to go to your your,

649
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,240
your off your training officer,
report it, write a report and

650
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,280
turn it in.
If you don't.

651
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,040
We actually had a recruit who
did it and they they removed,

652
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,440
they said, they said that's an
integrity issue.

653
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,360
They're like our policy is no
gratuities.

654
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,600
Wow, just like card you over to
the actual morale of the

655
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,840
officers throughout the years?
Or is that only for like the

656
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,480
training point?
No, it's, it's for, it's, it

657
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,000
goes on.
So it's not just training, but

658
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,040
it goes on and to the point of I
don't know if you guys have

659
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,720
quick trips for my for my West
Coast people, there'll be quick

660
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,480
trips.
A quick trip for my East Coast

661
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,400
folk are like a Wawa.
OK, gotcha, gotcha.

662
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,560
That's that's my language now.
Imagine your local convenient

663
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,840
gas station store that cops go
to get coffee.

664
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,160
Well, quick trip in Arizona,
they have a corporate policy

665
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,360
that cops get free coffee.
So what we would have to do is

666
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:14,840
is they would give us a free
coffee.

667
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,120
You would try to pay them and
they're like, oh, I get, I get

668
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,520
in trouble if I take money.
So we would basically just give

669
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,840
them the money for the coffee
and then say, hey, just buy the

670
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,160
person's coffee behind me or pay
for somebody else's coffee.

671
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,960
We had to do that because if and
if you didn't and, and somebody

672
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,080
found out you could be in, you
could literally be in trouble.

673
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,640
You would be fired once you were
out of the Academy, but after a

674
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,720
couple of violations.
So this goes to the corruption

675
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,600
side on the East Coast.
Everybody talks about that thin

676
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,560
blue line and how, you know,
cops protect cops.

677
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,560
I saw that back East.
I was going to ask about that.

678
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:48,560
Cops protect cops.
I.

679
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,400
Saw that, I, I straight up saw
that back east in, in Arizona,

680
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,040
not so much.
If you screw up, you screw up.

681
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,040
You're kind of on your own now.
Has it changed?

682
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,040
It definitely changed from in
2000 when I came to Mesa until I

683
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,200
retired in 20/21.
It had changed a little more

684
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,600
because we had become a bigger
city.

685
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,320
We went from 400,000 almost
800,000, we doubled.

686
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,880
So we got a lot and we got a lot
of people from back east.

687
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,040
We had some NYPD people come in,
we had and they brought their

688
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:23,520
back east policing and like,
hey, no, it's cool to do that.

689
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,440
So the paradigm is changed
within law enforcement.

690
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,600
But I will say East Coast, I
always said East Coast and West

691
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,000
Coast law enforcement are
extremely different.

692
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:38,040
So As for physical corruption, I
only heard of it in my

693
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,480
department once the guy got
caught and we all knew he was

694
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,440
shady.
We all do it.

695
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,640
It was the officer that always
did shady stuff.

696
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,840
He always would say, hey, you
know, I got, hey, come with me

697
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,440
to this house because I know
that they got.

698
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,560
I know right now they have, you
know, like 2 kilos of cocaine.

699
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,600
Yeah.
And like, how do you know they

700
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,880
have two cocaine?
Like I'm not going with you

701
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:01,880
because.
This is but they don't.

702
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,440
But they don't call you naive
for that.

703
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,200
Like I, I, I don't like, do they
say like, oh, grow up.

704
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,320
Like this is the world and we're
making, you know, like.

705
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,800
This is how you solve crime.
This is how I, I, I got the

706
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,720
information from a a, a, a a
source on the street.

707
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,560
And this is how you solve crime.
And I remember telling that

708
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,840
officer, I was like, I, I don't
want to be involved.

709
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,520
Grab somebody else.
You know, I don't want to be

710
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,520
your backup.
Well, then a year later I had

711
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,120
actually was in, I was in
detectives and I heard that DEA

712
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,160
actually did a sting operation
and they caught that officer.

713
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,760
He wasn't just getting
information off the street.

714
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,480
He was actually helping rival
gang members.

715
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,840
And they would tell him, Hey, I
know that my rival gang member

716
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,280
has drugs go bust them for me.
And then he would go and he was

717
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,600
straight corrupt and kind of
like, we all knew that guy was

718
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:49,840
shady.
You know, I didn't know he was

719
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,800
that corrupt, but he was shady,
you know what I mean?

720
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,160
And so police are police, you
know, police are, that's the

721
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,800
only real example that I have of
it.

722
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,960
But, you know, a lot of people
think that and I get how they

723
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,760
understand it.
Like, because I've been involved

724
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,360
in, you know, large scale
homicide investigations where

725
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,760
people will, management and
staff will make public

726
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,480
statements and then have to
recant those statements or say

727
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,080
something different later.
And it looks like they're lying.

728
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,560
And it really isn't that way.
Like it really isn't.

729
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,840
They really are not lying.
They just don't know.

730
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,000
They just don't.
Know, I see, I see.

731
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:31,320
I'm sorry, I'm just the reason
why I'm I'm like I'm holding my

732
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,239
phone actually right now is
because I I, you reminded me

733
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,679
while we were talking.
I, I did a interview with ADA

734
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,080
agent, super, super nice guy
Brian.

735
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,239
Oh gosh, I'll tell you his name
in one second.

736
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,040
Brian Townsend, awesome dude.
And one thing that I he worked

737
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,080
throughout the East Coast and
through Texas.

738
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,960
And one of the things that I had
asked him and talked to him

739
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,840
about was the relevance of
geography on the particular drug

740
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,600
trade that he was, you know,
trying to catch prevent.

741
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,040
Arizona is a big Arizona tends
to be a big area where drugs go

742
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:10,360
through right?
Right.

743
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,160
Yes, yes.
So was, So was I guess.

744
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,520
First of all, I'm sure that you
saw over the years the increase

745
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,320
in drug related crime.
Does that also almost always

746
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,520
include an increase in violent
crime as well?

747
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,120
Yes, absolutely, Absolutely.
When I was on the streets as a

748
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,400
patrol officer, methamphetamine
was the thing.

749
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,880
And almost all that
methamphetamine was coming from

750
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,400
Mexico.
Yeah.

751
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,200
And how far is Mexico from from
there?

752
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,400
It's about Tucson, so it's
probably about 120 miles.

753
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:45,760
So in two hours you could be in
Mexico like we're.

754
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,040
It's close.
I mean, like if someone could

755
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,960
just drive, drive through, they
could just drive, right?

756
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,240
You're one of the first big
places they drive through.

757
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,160
Yeah, the the first big place
you'll drive through is Tucson.

758
00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,200
OK, 40 minutes away got a border
and then after Tucson is 90

759
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,440
minutes N kind of in the center
of the state is Phoenix and

760
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,400
Mason area.
No, that's why as soon as we had

761
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,720
a violent crime like a homicide,
and if we had any indication

762
00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:11,200
they had Mexican ties, we
automatically got Border Patrol

763
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,560
and said, hey, look for this guy
crossing the border.

764
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,920
Because by the time we even get
on scene, they're halfway to the

765
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,440
border if they want to go so.
They usually follow through with

766
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,720
tips like that.
Or do you back?

767
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:25,480
If they follow through with
tips, do they call you back and

768
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:26,720
say, hey, thanks for the tip,
that was great.

769
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:28,360
Or do you used to read about in
the newspaper and you're like,

770
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,640
oh, they caught the guy?
Oh, no, no, absolutely no.

771
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,560
They'll they'll call us.
So, for instance, if we had a

772
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,240
homicide, and we have, we have a
suspect identified and we

773
00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:39,800
believe that he has ties to
Mexico and he may be headed to

774
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,480
Mexico, we call the Border
Patrol and we say, hey, if he

775
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,720
crosses at any one of the things
we want him detained, they will

776
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:48,840
detain him for us.
But they're federal officers.

777
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,240
Yes, and.
What will happen is we'll go

778
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:54,680
down there and then we'll
actually take custody of them.

779
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,040
So now they'll stop them and say
hey.

780
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,080
And a lot of times they'll just
say hey, you know, you're wanted

781
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,040
by Mesa PD.
And they'll get out and try to

782
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,120
run and then boom, they get
handcuffs and they might get

783
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,920
their own charges.
But yeah, they they do the

784
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:08,600
thing.
And I will even say even the

785
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,560
Mexican authorities were very
helpful because we would tell

786
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,360
our Border Patrol and then
Border Patrol would say, can we

787
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,520
tell the Mexican police on the
other side?

788
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,520
And we absolutely.
So they would tell them so just

789
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,560
in case they got past our Border
Patrol if it.

790
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,200
And then because then once you
go through ours to get into

791
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,400
Mexico, you got to go through
Mexican customs.

792
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,000
Sure.
They would know.

793
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,120
They never got through our
Border Patrol, but it was always

794
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,960
a secondary thing.
And they were always more than

795
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,920
willing to like, yeah, because
we don't want him in our

796
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:37,720
country.
You know what I mean?

797
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:39,560
Like if he, if he murdered
somebody, we don't want him

798
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,400
here.
Just we'll absolutely hand them

799
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,400
right back to you, but they'll
just deny an entry into the

800
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,200
country, give them back to
Border Patrol, and then they

801
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,120
hand them off to us.
So yeah, it's very, very

802
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,080
cooperative.
Awesome, awesome.

803
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,320
Yeah.
So I was going to ask about that

804
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,960
because I know that that, that
depending who you talk to, the

805
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,160
people say that the federal and
the local, you know, I guess

806
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,400
coordination could be a little
patchy sometimes or other times.

807
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:02,960
It's really wonderful.
What's what's been your

808
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,280
experience?
What's been your experience

809
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,760
working with the federal police
as opposed in a in a local

810
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,920
position?
Great.

811
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,400
But also I was in the homicide
world, so it's a little

812
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,240
different.
I think it really depends on the

813
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:18,480
crime.
So we had and we used the feds

814
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,600
almost exclusively.
So if we got a murder suspect,

815
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,440
so I have a murder, I identify a
suspect, I develop probable

816
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:31,560
cause and I can arrest them.
We had a unit in our in Mesa

817
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,400
Police Department called the
major felon unit.

818
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,080
They were Mesa and federal
agencies.

819
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,080
They had FBIDEA, they had all
the different federal, all

820
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,080
working together.
So if I had probable cause, I

821
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,960
would just go straight to them
because the feds, they would get

822
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,080
information that we didn't have
access to.

823
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,400
So if we had a phone number, the
feds could do amazing things

824
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,400
with that.
That is classified to the point

825
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,440
where as case agent, I didn't
even know.

826
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,080
They would just say, we know
he's at this address.

827
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,200
I can't tell you how I know
that, but we're going there and

828
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,200
going to arrest him.
And I'm like, OK, you know,

829
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,520
there's probable cause for
arrest, so go for it.

830
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,120
You know, you have, if anything
goes, SI will vouch that yes,

831
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,080
there's a there's a probable
cause to arrest this individual

832
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,560
and they would go and get him.
So the coordination was amazing

833
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,080
because it was a homicide.
And that looks good for

834
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:21,920
everybody.
Nobody wants a homicide person

835
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,880
on the street.
Where you get dicey is if the

836
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,240
crime is a little questionable.
So let's say you had like a

837
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:30,600
custodial interference
kidnapping.

838
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:35,080
So it's like a mom and dad are
divorced and then the dad takes

839
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,160
the kid and is holding them for
a couple of days longer than he

840
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,360
should.
It's a crime.

841
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,640
But are you going to have the
FBI SWAT team breaking in your

842
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,520
door?
You know what I'm saying?

843
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,760
That's where people say, that's
where people say, oh, the, the

844
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,640
feds in the state don't work
real well together because those

845
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,320
detectives would go to the feds
and say, hey, it is a crime.

846
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,080
It is a felony.
Can you find the guy?

847
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,080
And the feds are they're very
because again, if they show up

848
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,240
there and the guy says I'm not
coming out, what are you going

849
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,600
to do?
I mean, are you going to because

850
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,640
he kept his kid for a couple of
days?

851
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,800
You're going to get the media is
going to have a heyday with you.

852
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,520
Whereas if you're a murder
suspect.

853
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,040
It's kind of different, You
know, most society will say,

854
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,520
well, you know, I may not like
how the arrest went down, but he

855
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,720
did murder somebody.
You, you, you know what I mean?

856
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,400
So it really depends on the
crime.

857
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,560
So being in the homicide world,
it was very, people were well

858
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,120
more apt to to take our cases
because it was a homicide.

859
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,880
And society will, will believe,
will buy that better.

860
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,440
Was there any tension in sharing
and sharing the credit or, you

861
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,640
know, trying to take credit to
progress careers or anything

862
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,240
like that?
Meaning if it's a big homicide

863
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:45,400
case and you know, a bunch of
people are involved, like,

864
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,520
listen, this is a case that
could really put me on, you

865
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,240
know, could really advance my
career and, you know, elevate my

866
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:54,240
reputation.
I, you know, and then the feds

867
00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:56,240
coming, you know, the next, you
read in the newspaper that the

868
00:40:56,240 --> 00:40:58,600
feds, you know, caught this guy
and you're like, wait a minute.

869
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,360
I, I, you know, I'm on, I'm on
page 10 of this, of this news

870
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,480
story.
You know, like what what did

871
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:04,840
did?
Did that ever?

872
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,760
Does that get in the way?
It doesn't.

873
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,160
It never got in the way with me
because I always checked my ego.

874
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,080
It wasn't about me.
It wasn't about me.

875
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,840
It was about doing the job.
Did it happen all the time?

876
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,200
All the time.
Because what I did was the

877
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,720
boring stuff, you know, like I'm
the one who shows up on the

878
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:24,800
scene.
I write the search warrants, you

879
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,440
know, I do the administrative
stuff.

880
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,560
I I'm the one going through 1000
pages of telephone messages and

881
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,440
figuring all that stuff out.
That's very boring.

882
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,960
You know, that's why they don't
make movies about that of, you

883
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,680
know, oh, this guy sat behind a
computer for three days straight

884
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,600
and looked at all the text
messages and figured out it was

885
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,880
this guy.
That's not the fun stuff.

886
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,760
So, yeah, as soon as the feds
got involved and they would make

887
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,040
the arrest, it would always be,
you know, the FBIDEA and the

888
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,560
Mesa felon unit arrested this
guy for murder.

889
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,600
It was never, you know,
Detective Bocock who?

890
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:56,560
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I gotcha.

891
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,480
Who looked at, you know, 30,000
Facebook pages for three days

892
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,680
and identified the guy who?
Should, by the way, you should

893
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,440
get the credit for that because
at the end of the day we got.

894
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,400
The credit you didn't.
Do that, we're going to do it.

895
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,080
We got the credit within our
unit and so we knew that we did

896
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,840
it, you know what I mean?
And also they knew that we did

897
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,440
it.
And sometimes they would even

898
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,240
apologize.
It'd be like, you know, there's

899
00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:19,520
times where one time it wasn't
my case, but it was a high

900
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,960
profile case.
The unit that got that made the

901
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,800
arrest, they got awards from the
governor and the case agent

902
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,480
detective didn't.
And they fully apologized.

903
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,240
They were like, dude, we're so
sorry.

904
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,880
And everybody in our unit was
very like, hey, we get it, man,

905
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:34,480
It's cool.
Like, you know, you guys still

906
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,400
did a really good job.
You know, you did a really good

907
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,120
job.
And I think by doing that, it

908
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,000
was a good working relationship
because if we ever needed them,

909
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,680
they would go above and beyond.
Because I had a great working

910
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,440
relationship with those guys.
I always had their back on like

911
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,800
the administrative side to where
if something did go bad.

912
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,440
And sometimes I have had
situations where I authorized an

913
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,120
arrest, they went to make the
arrest and they had to shoot and

914
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:00,800
kill the guy.
Really.

915
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,240
And it went to federal court.
And I went to federal court and

916
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:07,800
I said the truth and I looked
right at the jury and I said I

917
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:09,360
had probable cause for his
arrest.

918
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,000
And I told this person, this
person, this person that there

919
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,240
was probable cause for the
arrest, you know?

920
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:21,120
What I mean, what's the, what's
the legal breakdown, I guess of

921
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,440
that case, right.
So you write up in the you, you

922
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:30,320
give probable cause for an
arrest and then the now when you

923
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,760
write up the probable cause for
arrest, does that obligate you,

924
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:38,280
local police, you or anyone else
working with you to go to that

925
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,000
person's house or anyone can go
there and use your probable

926
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,880
cause as as a method of arrest?
Yes, anybody can use that

927
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,280
probable cause.
And that's more on the civil

928
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,160
side because the shooting itself
will be judged on the shooting

929
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,960
itself, right.
So in in this particular case,

930
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,760
they went to arrest him.
He pulled a handgun out, he

931
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,560
pointed it at him, and then they
shot him.

932
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,160
OK, so that part would be
handled separately.

933
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,200
But we got sued civilly because
his family said you never should

934
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,120
have been in his house.
You never should have been

935
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,480
contacting him because he wasn't
a suspect.

936
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,040
And that's where you have to
have that good working

937
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,400
relationship.
Where I went and I said no, we

938
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,160
did.
And I had to, even though it was

939
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,040
a civil deal, I broke down the
evidence.

940
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,040
This this is the forensic
evidence.

941
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:23,760
This is the circumstantial
evidence.

942
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,640
This is a direct evidence.
And I was, you know, multiple

943
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,800
days on the stand explaining
exactly why they had it so the

944
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,800
jury could say, oh, and in that
case, the jury did say they go,

945
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,280
yeah, there was probable cause,
like the officers had a reason

946
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,480
to go there where the family was
just saying, oh, you just picked

947
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,120
him out of nobody and just
showed up in his house and

948
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,880
started yelling at him.
He was scared.

949
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:46,760
He pulled a gun and then you
shot him.

950
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,840
No, no, no, no, no.
If he, if he were to have

951
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,040
survived that arrest, he would
be in prison for murder because

952
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:54,360
we had probable cause.
You know what I mean?

953
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,120
We had a lot of evidence that it
was him, right.

954
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,760
So it's a give and take thing.
So they have to trust us to

955
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,800
where when I say, hey, guys, I
have probable cause, they have

956
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,560
to trust that if it goes bad
that I have and it's not, I'm

957
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:08,840
not going to go on the stand and
go.

958
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,560
Yeah, it was 5050.
You know, it might have been

959
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,560
him.
I really just wanted to question

960
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,520
him, you know what I mean?
I really just, I really just

961
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,520
kind of wanted to get his
fingerprints and then see where

962
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,800
it goes from there.
That's not going to fly then

963
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,680
this, then civilly, you know,
we're going to have to pay money

964
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,640
to somebody because that's not
appropriate.

965
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,320
That's not appropriate.
So I have to trust them to do

966
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,360
the right thing and they have to
trust me that I'm going to do

967
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,360
the right thing.
And so in that case, we had a

968
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,040
good working relationship, but
they always stole the credit.

969
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,040
It was always the guys.
It's always the guys that put

970
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,640
the handcuffs on somebody that
get the credit, you know what I

971
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,040
mean?
It's not behind the scenes.

972
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,240
You never hear about the
forensic people.

973
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:49,440
You know, the person who
identified the fingerprints.

974
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,960
They never say, hey, the person
who identified the fingerprint,

975
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:53,920
they're a hero.
Really, they are.

976
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:55,200
They're the ones who solved the
crime.

977
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,080
And then they tell us.
So we go out and put handcuffs

978
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,400
on it and we're the hero.
Yeah, I love.

979
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:06,400
That's why I like to, you know,
I, I was never aware until I was

980
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,080
aware that there's more to the
story.

981
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:09,920
And then as soon as I realized
there's more to the story, I

982
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,440
became obsessed to learn, you
know, with learning about what

983
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,880
else went into it.
You know, I I think that, you

984
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,040
know, like when you see a
finished product or like, for

985
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,440
example, even with how like, you
know, by so, you know, the, the

986
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,640
example I think is Hollywood.
You know, everyone associates a

987
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,880
movie with an actor in it, you
know, but you don't think about

988
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,600
the writer that's putting the
words in the actor's mouth.

989
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,040
You don't you don't think about
the director.

990
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,400
You don't think about the team
that edited that edit everything

991
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,160
or the music supervisor that put
the great soundtrack or the

992
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,480
great score in there.
And you're like, Oh yeah, that

993
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,520
movie is amazing because of
Leonardo DiCaprio.

994
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,200
And you're like, well, yeah, you
know, but also, like everyone

995
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,240
involved is like incredible, you
know?

996
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:47,280
And so like, yeah, I, I feel, I
feel that that's, that's, that's

997
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,480
great.
And I think it's beautiful that

998
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,880
you appreciated that for what it
was rather than letting your ego

999
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,960
take, you know, take over.
Because I think it's very easy

1000
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,760
for a lot of people to get
resentful or to get, you know, a

1001
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,000
little bit more like, hey, man,
like X amount of time.

1002
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,840
I probably should have been able
to, you know, I should get some

1003
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,320
credit over here, you know.
And on that movie thing, it's

1004
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,840
great that you bring that up
because how many movies have you

1005
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,760
watched that have?
And I've always said what

1006
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,480
exactly what you said, you have
a list actors.

1007
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,360
They consider great actors, but
they're in a movie and it's

1008
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,080
horrible and they're horrible
and and you're like, it's got to

1009
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,200
be the writing because they're
amazing actors, but it's got to

1010
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,640
be the writing wasn't very good.
You know what I'm saying?

1011
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,400
So you're right.
You're only as good as the

1012
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,040
people who support you.
But the person who's getting all

1013
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:37,640
the credit is the person that
you see.

1014
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,040
Yeah, and then they should be
judges with that credit too.

1015
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,480
They got to be generous.
They got to be generous with the

1016
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,840
credit and they got and they
can't think that they're.

1017
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,560
The worst thing I think is that
when people ultimately think

1018
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,840
that they that, you know, gets
their head where they ultimately

1019
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,440
think, yeah, I am a one man
show, you know, like I can do it

1020
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:55,640
all.
You know, that's the worst

1021
00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:00,240
because when they forget that
it's my son, my 2 1/2 year old

1022
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:03,320
son is we watch the movie cars
every day for the last six

1023
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,000
months, you know, and Lightning
McQueen is the guy that didn't

1024
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,560
need the, you know, the crew.
And at the end of the movie, you

1025
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,880
know, and he gets his whole, his
whole crew and the whole family

1026
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,200
together, you know, like it
saves the day.

1027
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,400
And like, it's, I, I love the
idea of pushing that kind of

1028
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,520
concept, especially when in, in
the form of education to, you

1029
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,280
know, just encourage people to
evaluate.

1030
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,120
I, I felt what I was here,
whether I heard about China or

1031
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:30,040
Russia, but that one of the two
countries, the, if you ask, for

1032
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:31,920
example, like a high school
teacher, like how important your

1033
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,520
job is, your job, Like, it's so
important.

1034
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,760
Like I'm raising the people of
tomorrow, you know, and then if

1035
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,200
you ask the mechanic how
important his job is, my job is

1036
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,480
the most important to the
motherland, you know, to China

1037
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,600
because, you know, without me
knowing to get around.

1038
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,320
And I, I feel, and it, it
doesn't feel like we have that

1039
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,960
kind of same priority, those
same priorities or values in

1040
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,040
America the same way at the
moment.

1041
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,120
I really would love to try to,
you know, continue encouraging

1042
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,920
that people really understand
and appreciate, you know, what

1043
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,360
their place in society is and
that they should be proud of it,

1044
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,360
you know, and want to contribute
and look at it like it's

1045
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,400
important, you know?
No, absolutely, absolutely.

1046
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,760
Because I and I, and I've been
on both sides of that, like as a

1047
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,040
homicide detective, again, I was
the face of of the

1048
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,120
investigation.
But honestly, it was a lot of

1049
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:22,480
the forensics, the analysts, the
people who made my job easier

1050
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,480
were the only reason I was able
to do my job sometimes, you

1051
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,080
know, and I was on the other end
of it in the Air Force.

1052
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,840
Whereas when we would do a good
mission, the pilots, the

1053
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,000
officers, you know, they took
all the credit for everything.

1054
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,040
If they flew a good mission,
they got all the credit for it.

1055
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,680
But you know what, for every
hour of flying, it took, you

1056
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:42,560
know, six to seven hours of
maintenance.

1057
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,320
You know, I'm the guy up all
night long put air in tires and

1058
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,920
fixing hydraulics and all that.
But no one's ever thanking you,

1059
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,640
you know what I mean?
So I've kind of been on both

1060
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,080
sides of that.
And I agree 100% that everybody,

1061
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:59,360
no matter what you do, you are
contributing to the greater

1062
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:00,480
cost.
You know what I mean?

1063
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,600
From the, and you all, and
people always think just like

1064
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,040
you said, like, oh, I got the
smallest job or I'm, I'm, I'm

1065
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,280
just a barista, I'm just a
custodian or something like

1066
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:08,880
that.
No, you don't realize how

1067
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,880
important your job is sometimes
because if you don't have that,

1068
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,200
don't have the morning coffee,
you know, don't have the

1069
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,360
bathroom that works and see how
other people can produce and

1070
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:18,320
work.
They can't.

1071
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,480
It doesn't work.
No, Yeah, that's a, that's a

1072
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:25,640
good lesson.
I wanted to talk to you a little

1073
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,440
bit about it because I happen to
love this particular field, but

1074
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:34,600
the psychological aspect of
being a homicide detective and

1075
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:39,360
either your personal experiences
in terms of coping mechanism

1076
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,880
mechanisms, therapy does, does
the, there's the force, you

1077
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,800
know, offer, you know,
substantial or adequate, you

1078
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:51,320
know, mental health, Because I
mean, we're not meant to see the

1079
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,200
things that you see, you know,
I, I don't think we are.

1080
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,520
And I think that exposure to
this kind of stuff, I everyone

1081
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,720
PTSD is rampant in, in, in the
country, you know, So what's,

1082
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,760
what's some of your thoughts or
relationship to the mental

1083
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,560
health aspect of the of the job?
So Mesa Police Department was

1084
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,440
really, really progressive in
that they actually have what

1085
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,560
they call a peer support team.
They were one of the first

1086
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,720
larger agencies to have that.
And I was part of it for a while

1087
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:19,240
until I went to violent crimes
because I can't, I, I, I

1088
00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:21,840
couldn't do both.
But they were very cognizant of

1089
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,280
it.
And we did have counselors on

1090
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,600
duty that you could see anytime
you wanted to that you could go

1091
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,880
talk to.
A lot of cops just didn't

1092
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:31,520
though, you know, it's kind of
that macho.

1093
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,680
There's still that macho
mentality of, you know, I don't

1094
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:36,040
need that.
I'm stronger.

1095
00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:41,360
I'm, you know, better.
As for the psychology of it, you

1096
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:42,600
have to really just be aware of
it.

1097
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:48,000
I saw in my 8 years of being a
homicide detective and before

1098
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:49,800
that, I saw that because even as
a patrol officer, we would

1099
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:51,880
respond to death.
And I still remember my first

1100
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,000
death call.
I can still see her face.

1101
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,400
I still see that you have.
I was noticing towards the end

1102
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,280
of my career that I was seeing
those early signs of PTSD.

1103
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,680
I was more emotional with things
I would cry for, you know, I'd

1104
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,720
watch a, a, a sad movie and I
would just kind of tear up and

1105
00:52:06,720 --> 00:52:07,880
my son would say, hey, are you
OK?

1106
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,640
I'm like, yeah, it's just, it's
just sad, you know, And I think

1107
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,200
you have to really recognize it.
And once you recognize it, that

1108
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,800
helps.
I've never been a big consumer

1109
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,200
of alcohol or anything like
that, so I never really saw

1110
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:21,360
that.
But I always paid attention to

1111
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,400
it.
I always paid attention to like,

1112
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:25,560
hey, if my alcohol starts to
increase, I'm going to start

1113
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,600
talking to somebody.
A lot of cops unfortunately

1114
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,800
don't.
And we kind of rely on each

1115
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,040
other to do it.
So within our unit, we really

1116
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,480
relied on each other.
I knew my other detectives when

1117
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,560
they were having a bad day.
And maybe I would say, hey, I'm

1118
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,200
going to go ahead and take that
part for you.

1119
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,000
You know, why don't you hang
back, get some pizza and do this

1120
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,760
part and I'll go handle the sad
part.

1121
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,880
And in some, some situations, it
would affect me more.

1122
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,080
And it always affected people on
a personal level.

1123
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,160
So like when I dealt with kids
that were the same age as my

1124
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,400
son, it was to me.
So people would step in and say,

1125
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,800
hey, why don't I go ahead and
take care of that part.

1126
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,320
And you go, you know, why don't
you go back to the office and

1127
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,280
write a search for it?
And I'd be like, hey, thanks.

1128
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:07,960
And then other people would have
situations.

1129
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,160
We had one, we had a female
detective.

1130
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,600
She just had a baby and we had a
baby death.

1131
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:14,800
And we're like, hey, why don't
you hang back?

1132
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:16,760
And you know do not.
Deal with that.

1133
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,840
Yeah, and you can do like the
phones and and and the social

1134
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,600
media part.
We'll go out to the scene.

1135
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,880
And she was like, hey, thanks, I
got it.

1136
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,360
We all.
So you watch, you take care of

1137
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,000
each other, you take care of
each other.

1138
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,000
But yeah, there is a
psychological part of it where

1139
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,160
but you also get desensitized to
it.

1140
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,520
I'm not even going to lie.
You just get desensitized

1141
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,280
because it's your job and you
don't realize it because also

1142
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,920
it's your job.
Like, you know, I've had to dig

1143
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,480
through brain matter and stuff
looking for bullets and it's but

1144
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,400
you don't think about it at the
time because you're thinking I

1145
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:51,800
got to find that bullet, you
know?

1146
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:56,520
Like that, but you revisit it.
It's exactly.

1147
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:00,920
It's kind of like, you know, you
do it and at the time you don't

1148
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,480
even think about it.
It's like 2 days later when you,

1149
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,280
when you, when you come down and
you're like, oh, that was

1150
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,720
horrible.
You know, that was just, that

1151
00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:12,080
was, that was, that was really
kind of messed up.

1152
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,480
So it's kind of when you leave,
when you get out of it is when

1153
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,640
you start kind of dealing with
it and realizing just how messed

1154
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:21,520
up the things are.
Just like I've had to, I've

1155
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,560
never had to shoot anybody, but
I've been very close and I've

1156
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,040
pointed my gun at people.
I've, I've taken the slack out

1157
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,400
of the trigger.
I was, I set my, my, my line.

1158
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,200
I almost did it.
At that moment, I didn't have a

1159
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,560
whole lot of stress.
I was focused on my training.

1160
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,840
I was like, stop or I, he was
coming to me with a knife and I

1161
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,640
basically said stop or I will
shoot you, you know, And he,

1162
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,600
he's like, no, he's like, he's
kept coming, like stop it.

1163
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:45,960
And I said, if you cross that
line, if you, I'm like, if you

1164
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:48,720
cross that curve, I will shoot
you and you will die.

1165
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:52,040
Do you understand?
He's like, no, you won't, yes, I

1166
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:53,720
will.
I will shoot you.

1167
00:54:53,720 --> 00:54:56,720
And he finally gave up.
It's only so at the moment, all

1168
00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:59,320
I thought about was a training,
you know, I'm just doing my job.

1169
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:04,000
It's almost robotic.
And then it's only afterwards.

1170
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:05,640
And in that situation, it was
afterwards.

1171
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:07,680
And I was, I was debriefing, you
know, because other people came

1172
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:09,000
out and I was like, kind of what
happened?

1173
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,480
Only then it's like a dump.
And I was like, oh, I got to sit

1174
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,800
down for a minute, like shot
somebody like that was that was

1175
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:17,360
crazy.
First off, he almost stabbed me

1176
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:19,960
with a kitchen knife.
Second, I almost shot him.

1177
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,600
You know what I mean?
So it's kind of, and that's kind

1178
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:23,720
of how it was in the homicide
world.

1179
00:55:23,720 --> 00:55:27,160
When you're in the in, when in
the heat of the investigation,

1180
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,520
you're so focused on getting the
evidence that you need, getting

1181
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,760
what you what you need, dealing
and it's all sad and dealing

1182
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,240
with the sadness of even talking
to the family and they're, and

1183
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,200
they're emotional and they're
crying and you're trying to get

1184
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,680
information from them because
you're trying to solve the case.

1185
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,880
It's only when it's all kind of
solved and done that you sit

1186
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:51,600
back at your desk and kind of
like, oh, like, what am I doing?

1187
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:54,880
Like this isn't normal.
But then you kind of go into the

1188
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,280
mode again, you're like, OK, now
I got to start writing this up.

1189
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:02,560
I got to get it ready for trial.
And it's, it's almost a robotic

1190
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,040
thing.
It's, it's almost like you just

1191
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,120
going along with like, this is
my job and I have to do a good

1192
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:08,960
job for them.
I can't break down right now

1193
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,440
because they need me.
You know, I got to get this

1194
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,760
ready for trial and we got to
get this guy prosecuted because,

1195
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,880
you know, we got to help this
family out because that that was

1196
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:18,840
wrong.
What happened to them?

1197
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,640
So, and then when I left, I
noticed right, right.

1198
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,000
When I, when I retired, I
stopped for 20 years in Mesa.

1199
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:26,960
You can retire and get a
pension.

1200
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,280
So I left because I knew I was
going to do other careers.

1201
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:30,440
I knew I was going to do other
things.

1202
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,320
So I'm like, I, I, I have a lot
of other interests and I just, I

1203
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:35,840
will, I will find something to
do.

1204
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,480
And so I left and I noticed
almost right away, like after

1205
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:44,480
six months of leaving, my
emotions evened out and I just

1206
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:45,880
felt better.
I just felt better.

1207
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,400
I was thinking more, yeah, it
really does.

1208
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:50,560
And it still effects you a
little bit, but not as much.

1209
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,960
Removing you from this, from the
situation really does help.

1210
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,920
It really does help.
So yeah, every police officer

1211
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,560
deals with bad things, and they
all have the PTSD.

1212
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,080
It's just a matter of how they
deal with it.

1213
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:07,960
Yeah, yeah, I hear.
I I was kind of, yeah, I kind of

1214
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:12,800
hope that the notion of therapy
becomes, you know, destigmatized

1215
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,720
to, you know, people in general,
including macho men, because.

1216
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,360
And I actually think just I was
thinking while you were, you

1217
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,560
know, describing everything that
I think it's almost, it's

1218
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:26,360
absolutely necessary to have a
process for you or for any

1219
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:30,720
officer to or anyone really
under high intensity situations

1220
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,520
to be able to.
There is a process and a line

1221
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:37,640
that I could turn to something
and a clear set of instructions

1222
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,640
and how to go about this, you
know, and so it's almost like

1223
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,680
there is an authority figure
there in your head that's like,

1224
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:46,800
this is what you do.
He takes a step over that curb.

1225
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,840
You do this, you know, when you,
when you, when he does that, you

1226
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:54,560
do that.
And I think that helps.

1227
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:59,000
I would imagine at least that
that helps the panic, you know,

1228
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,720
the, the adrenaline rush, you
know, the, the, I don't even

1229
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:02,640
know what you, I don't even
know.

1230
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,120
Like I there was one time about
a year ago now where I was

1231
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:10,800
driving my family back from
Orlando to South Florida and I

1232
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:12,360
was getting over, I was getting
gas.

1233
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,520
And I, I mean, it was so stupid.
I don't even remember what

1234
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:17,240
exactly what happened.
There's a woman that was

1235
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,120
fighting with her, with her,
with her boyfriend or whatever

1236
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:21,640
it was.
They were like screaming.

1237
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:23,280
And she was like, he's not
letting me get out of the car,

1238
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,560
not let me take my stuff.
And I, and please someone help.

1239
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:28,560
And everyone is ignoring her.
And I just started like taking a

1240
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:30,040
couple of steps over like, is
everything OK?

1241
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:35,600
And I didn't have a plan as I'm
walking over, like my heart is

1242
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,320
like pounding and I'm like, I
have no idea what's going to

1243
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,320
happen, Dan.
Like I can't not like say

1244
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:41,920
anything like no one's doing
anything.

1245
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,200
And like I had AI have a one
year old and so and this woman

1246
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:47,440
had a kid in the car and I was
like, I hope that like, I don't

1247
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:49,280
know what's going on, but is
everything OK?

1248
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,200
And I had no plan.
And I was, you know, and I think

1249
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,720
that made the whole experience a
lot more shaky, you know, and

1250
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:58,640
then, you know, then to have
here's a procedure and here's a

1251
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:04,040
step by step way to go.
What So, so, So what are So what

1252
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:05,080
are some things you're going to
pursue now?

1253
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:08,080
You wrote a couple of books I
saw, which I want to talk to you

1254
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:08,320
about.
So.

1255
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:13,320
Real quick on that.
So how people how you explain

1256
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:15,000
that?
So in all my training that I've

1257
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,160
had, it was explained the best.
It was in the Secret Service and

1258
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,760
the Secret Service guy explained
it, whereas he goes in all of

1259
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,840
our trainings.
We're giving you note cards in

1260
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,400
your head.
He says when you come on a

1261
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,160
situation that you've never
done, he goes, you have a little

1262
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,440
monkey in your head that's going
through the Rolodex and saying,

1263
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:35,880
OK, it's like your situation, a
girl needs help in a in a thing.

1264
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:39,120
If he goes through the Rolodex
and there's nothing there, I

1265
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,440
don't, I don't know what to do.
Yeah, he goes in training, we're

1266
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:45,040
filling your Rolodex.
So like, you know, so that

1267
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,280
situation would be there.
And that's kind of how it is.

1268
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,600
That's why in those training and
in training, you know, they

1269
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:52,080
always say training will help
officers.

1270
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,200
It will because that way when
you show up to a scene, very

1271
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:57,160
rarely have I ever been involved
in something.

1272
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:58,800
There's only a couple times
where I've been involved in

1273
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,000
something where I've been like,
I have no idea, like this is

1274
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:02,560
completely brand.
New What was that?

1275
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:04,240
What are those?
Contacts the monkey is like

1276
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,480
going through things.
One of them was had a homicide.

1277
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:10,160
The gal said she was possessed
by the devil.

1278
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:16,000
She said that she was that she
was a ritual was done on her

1279
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,800
when she was 10 years old and
that she was possessed by the

1280
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:23,440
devil and she stabbed her, she
stabbed her sister-in-law over

1281
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:25,840
270 times with a pair of
scissors.

1282
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:28,560
And that one like, I was getting
ready to go in and do the

1283
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:30,600
interview and I'm just, I'm just
like your face.

1284
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:32,760
I'm like, I don't even know.
I don't know.

1285
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:34,640
Like this is this is all new to
me.

1286
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:36,760
Like what do I ask?
So I just been in there.

1287
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,200
I just I and so I straight up
said tell me about the

1288
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:41,840
possession and she wouldn't
agree.

1289
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,320
What'd she say?
She had a great day deal.

1290
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,720
She said she had a fever.
She was from Mexico, and she had

1291
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:48,320
a fever when she was 10 years
old.

1292
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:52,520
And her grandmother was a like a
bruja or a witch or something.

1293
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,240
And she did a possession on her
to put a good spirit into her.

1294
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:58,520
And she said that worked for a
year.

1295
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:01,880
But after a year, I started
hearing voices to kill my family

1296
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,200
and that I had learned that it
was a batch of spirit had

1297
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,680
pretended to be good, but it was
a bad spirit in me.

1298
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,560
And she's lived with this for
almost 20 years.

1299
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:12,160
And I'm like, well, what do you
mean live with it?

1300
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:14,560
And she would tell me like, oh,
I got a job when I was 18.

1301
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,200
They came to America and she's
like, I got a job when I was 18

1302
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:21,480
and I almost murdered my manager
because I showed up to work and

1303
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,560
I was working at like a like a,
it was like a fast food

1304
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:27,840
restaurant.
And she said, the boy said, you

1305
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,440
need to kill your manager or I'm
going to hurt your family.

1306
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,000
And she's like, I almost did.
But I convinced them that it was

1307
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:35,640
OK.
And it's like, so that's kind of

1308
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:37,680
schizophrenic, but I'm not a
psychologist, you know what I

1309
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:39,480
mean?
So OK, maybe this is

1310
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:42,680
psychologist, but then I talked
to the family and the grandma

1311
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:44,400
confirmed it.
I talked to grandma.

1312
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:45,800
And again, what do you ask
grandma?

1313
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:47,400
So I just said, I'm going to ask
her the truth.

1314
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:50,000
Did you do a ritual on your
granddaughter when you're dead?

1315
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,800
She's like, yeah, Oh yeah, I'm a
I'm a witch.

1316
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:56,200
My, my mother was a witch.
I come from a long line of it.

1317
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:59,040
And we put and she like had the
name of the, of the spirit.

1318
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:00,800
She was, I put this spirit, this
is his name.

1319
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:03,400
And he said, and she's like, I
know it's a good spirit.

1320
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,160
She's just using this as an
excuse because she thinks it's a

1321
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,280
bad spirit, but it's a really a
good spirit because and there it

1322
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,960
was all this spiritual and.
What the heck do you?

1323
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:16,360
What do you make of that?
I kind of like, I kind of

1324
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:18,680
believe them.
I believe that they believe it

1325
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:21,360
and maybe it is true, Like, you
know what I mean?

1326
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:25,440
Like maybe it is true.
Maybe she is possessed and also

1327
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:29,160
the courts found her to be meant
mentally incompetent, so we

1328
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,600
couldn't.
She's in a state hospital now

1329
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:34,760
basically forever until she's
able to stand trial, which I

1330
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:38,120
don't think she ever will be.
Do the grandmothers?

1331
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,160
They can't.
Train you for like they can't

1332
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:43,760
train you for demonology in the
Academy because how often is

1333
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:46,480
that going to come out That's.
Crazy.

1334
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:48,880
That's such a crazy story in
that scene.

1335
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:50,920
Must have been crazy.
Yeah, it was weird.

1336
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,280
It was absolutely weird.
It was just weird doing the

1337
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:54,920
interview because you're like,
I'm not going to, I'm just going

1338
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:57,480
to ask her directly, you know,
what's the name of what do you

1339
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:00,120
do?
You have a hard time talking to

1340
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:02,440
murderers.
Yeah.

1341
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:03,080
Yeah.
Is it.

1342
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,400
Is it hard to sit across from
someone and be and know that

1343
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,520
they just killed someone and be
like, how am I going to treat

1344
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:09,200
you like, like, how am I going
to treat you like a person?

1345
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:11,680
Yeah.
It's hard in the beginning, but

1346
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,120
that's where homicide detectives
aren't just come straight out of

1347
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:17,040
the Academy.
That comes with years of

1348
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:21,360
interviewing people because you
have to like I've interviewed a

1349
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:25,280
lot of people on the street,
robbery people, rapists, things

1350
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:26,800
like that.
And you can't judge them.

1351
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:29,000
The minute you start judging
them, they're going to shut down

1352
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:31,240
on you.
So you do kind of have, and

1353
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:34,240
again, it's just doing the job,
you know what I mean?

1354
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:38,320
Like your job is to elicit a
confession or if not, elicit as

1355
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:41,320
much information as possible.
And it's one of those things,

1356
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,800
the Rolodex, you know, every
interview you learn a new

1357
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,280
technique.
So like a lot of times you would

1358
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:51,000
with murderers just make it like
not a big thing.

1359
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:53,560
Like, OK, so you know, and then
it asked them, did you defend

1360
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:54,720
yourself?
And some people like, no, I

1361
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,120
didn't want to defend him.
I just wanted to kill him.

1362
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:58,800
Well, why?
You know what?

1363
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:00,480
Why would make you think, do you
think that's wrong?

1364
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,120
And just kind of have a
conversation and not judge them?

1365
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:04,680
Because the minute you go in
there and you start judging

1366
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:07,040
people and being like you're a
murderer, you're going to prison

1367
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:08,600
forever.
They're either going to be

1368
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:10,400
confrontational back or they're
going to shut down.

1369
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:12,760
My experience is is they usually
shut down and say, I want a

1370
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:14,120
lawyer.
You're not going to listen to

1371
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:15,400
me.
But if you just like, say, hey,

1372
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:18,360
I know a murder just happened,
you know, you're in a lot of

1373
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:20,520
trouble.
But why?

1374
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:22,240
Like, you know, like, tell me
your side of the story.

1375
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:24,320
I'm going to, I'm not going to
ask any questions, you know,

1376
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:27,200
just you talk and let me know.
Why did this go down?

1377
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,240
And they'll start from when they
were six years old and talk for

1378
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:32,360
40 minutes.
But that's huge information.

1379
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,120
You have to listen because
you're going to learn a lot.

1380
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:37,120
They'll tell you everything.
You know what I mean?

1381
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:39,280
It may not be exactly how you
want every like, well, where'd

1382
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,160
you get the gun?
I don't know, because they

1383
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:43,160
probably don't know.
Like, I just shot somebody.

1384
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,360
I'm having an adrenaline drunk
too, you know what I mean?

1385
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,600
Like, I'm in police custody.
I'm a little worked up.

1386
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,640
I don't have those details, you
know, but we're like, no.

1387
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:54,320
You're seeing those, those
absurd, you're saying those

1388
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:56,920
absurd Hollywood monologues
actually happened in real life.

1389
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:58,640
You know I, we.
Actually do.

1390
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:01,000
Yeah, we actually do, yeah.
It's so funny.

1391
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:05,560
It's all the movies, the it's
the least favorite part of all

1392
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:07,720
those movies for me, you know,
or the monologues.

1393
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:09,320
I'm like, when does this
actually ever happened?

1394
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:11,080
This is the first time I'm ever
hearing about actually happening

1395
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:11,960
in real life.
Yeah.

1396
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:14,080
Oh, totally.
I will tell you if you most,

1397
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:17,840
most detectives and police
officers and people in general,

1398
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:20,320
when they ask a question,
they're not listening.

1399
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:22,640
They're already thinking about
the next question that they're

1400
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:24,000
that they're that they're
asking.

1401
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:25,640
I mean, we all do it.
I do it all the time.

1402
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:28,760
I've done it, I've I've done it
while we're talking, you've said

1403
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:32,360
things I'm saying in my mind, I
want to talk about, you know, a

1404
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:34,680
list actors with bad writing,
you know what I mean?

1405
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:39,840
So we all do it as human beings.
But if we just step back and

1406
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:43,640
kind of say, hey, recognize that
and acknowledge it and really

1407
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:48,320
listen to each other, you would
be amazed at like, I will ask

1408
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:50,440
people something and then
they'll, you know, ask them

1409
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:53,160
something and they'll answer it.
And just their answer alone is

1410
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:54,960
very damning.
Where you're like, woah, did he

1411
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:58,160
just say that?
Like, you know, and same thing

1412
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:00,600
where you just say, hey, you
give me your side of the story,

1413
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:03,120
No judgement, no nothing.
All right.

1414
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:05,720
But I'd always tell them, I'm
not your lawyer, I'm not your

1415
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:07,240
priest.
I'm still a detective.

1416
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:10,640
I'm not going to judge you, but
you tell me why this went down.

1417
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:14,280
And you would be amazed at the
most people would just say, OK,

1418
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:16,960
well, I felt disrespected and I
felt wrong.

1419
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:20,000
And, you know, and when I was
seven, I was disrespected and I

1420
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:23,400
swear I would never do it again.
And that's why I got a gun and I

1421
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:26,160
shot that guy because all right,
then you can get into the

1422
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:28,320
details, which sometimes they
just don't want to tell you the

1423
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:31,520
details or again, they just
don't remember because we as

1424
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:34,600
cops always forget that.
And in movies they always have

1425
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:37,000
these things where these
criminals are masterminds, you

1426
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:38,960
know, we're these super genius
masterminds.

1427
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:43,240
And that's not always the case.
The masterminds we don't catch,

1428
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:46,400
I've always said this, we don't
catch the smart ones, you know

1429
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:47,680
what I mean?
It's kind of like you have the

1430
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:50,960
lions thing.
Lions don't go to the center of

1431
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,520
the herd to get the the zebra,
you know.

1432
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:55,040
Lions, not the ones on the
outside.

1433
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,080
Lions get the outside buns.
You know, they're really, really

1434
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:00,280
smart criminals.
We don't catch because they are

1435
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:02,560
smarter than us or they're
thinking they have the

1436
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:04,000
advantage.
They straight up have the

1437
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:08,880
advantage.
Yeah, there was a great show.

1438
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,800
Have you ever watched Trafficked
with Marianna Van Zeller?

1439
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:14,920
No, I haven't.
Oh, it's on Hulu.

1440
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:18,240
It's on Hulu.
She's been on Joe Rogan's

1441
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:21,680
podcast a bunch of times.
I think every time she records a

1442
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:24,480
new season.
But one thing that she does is,

1443
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:27,560
I mean, she basically each
episode is a particular aspect

1444
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:30,480
of crime that she's
investigative, you know, doing

1445
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:34,320
investigative journalism on.
And so it's the fentanyl crisis.

1446
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:38,120
It's mail order brides.
It's you know, it's illegal

1447
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:40,600
street fighting.
It's it's and each episode is

1448
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:42,960
something incredible.
And one thing that she does

1449
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:46,480
super, super well is also that
no judgement judge, like why'd

1450
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:48,200
you do that?
You know, like, what do you?

1451
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:50,320
So one thing, there's an episode
where she was talking to

1452
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:55,480
assassins in I think South South
Africa, and this guy got into

1453
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:59,400
assassin assassinations,
becoming a hitman because

1454
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:02,520
because his parents, his dad was
killed or something like that.

1455
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:06,040
And she said to him, have you
ever thought about the fact that

1456
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,480
you're, you know, you're putting
someone, some, some other kid in

1457
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:14,200
that same situation, you know,
and the guy's like, no, I never

1458
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:15,440
thought about that in my entire
life.

1459
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:17,680
He's like.
And then apparently she came up

1460
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:19,520
to him afterward.
He came up to her after, after

1461
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:23,200
they finished rolling and said,
I really, you change, you change

1462
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:26,120
the way that I perceive things.
And I don't know if he's

1463
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:27,600
necessarily even happy about
that because that's his

1464
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:29,760
livelihood, right?
But he was like, I, I, you know,

1465
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:32,560
like I look at this guy like
he's a bad guy and I got to make

1466
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:33,800
a living and I don't care what
it is.

1467
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:36,319
And he's like, I never thought
about the fact that he has a kid

1468
01:08:36,319 --> 01:08:39,240
that was feeling the exact same
way that I felt, you know, and,

1469
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:41,920
and so just having these
conversations a lot of time is

1470
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:43,720
just like you wouldn't even
imagine.

1471
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,800
But it I guess, I guess it
works, you know.

1472
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:49,120
No, that's interesting.
I'm going to have to check that

1473
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:49,600
out.
That sounds.

1474
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:51,880
Yeah, you should.
It also makes me a question.

1475
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:57,439
I feel like the idea that people
talk when talk to like a people,

1476
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:02,760
like a person is pretty well
known, has been pretty well

1477
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:05,120
known for a long time.
And so it really, really

1478
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:09,080
astonishes me when we hear
stories about, like, people try,

1479
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:11,240
you know, especially, you know,
stories in our government,

1480
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:14,920
unfortunately about times a week
torture people for information.

1481
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:17,399
We're like, don't we know like,
beforehand that that's a bad

1482
01:09:17,399 --> 01:09:19,240
method?
Like, don't you know that that's

1483
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:20,600
not a good idea?
Who told you that you thought

1484
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:22,120
you were going to get a good
information, you know?

1485
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:23,439
No.
And, and that's absolutely

1486
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:24,880
right.
And I learned that as a patrol

1487
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:27,040
officer.
My FTO taught me and then I

1488
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:30,080
taught it to newer officers.
And I always said, if you're

1489
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:33,479
dealing with a homeless person,
if you want to get compliance,

1490
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:37,359
call him Sir or ma'am.
And I will tell you, you ask a

1491
01:09:37,359 --> 01:09:41,399
person like Sir, can I just ask
you, you know, like a homeless

1492
01:09:41,399 --> 01:09:43,399
person loitering out front of a
store and they call you, right?

1493
01:09:43,399 --> 01:09:45,359
And they call the police.
That's a regular police story.

1494
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:48,359
If you show up there.
These are already people in

1495
01:09:48,359 --> 01:09:49,720
society who have nothing to
lose.

1496
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:52,600
They've already lost everything.
They're in the worst possible

1497
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,560
situation.
Yelling at them is not going to

1498
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:56,080
make them any better or any
happier.

1499
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:57,560
You know what I mean?
And just like you were saying,

1500
01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,560
they're probably anti defiant.
So they're probably going to

1501
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:01,160
say, you know, I'm not going to
listen to you anyway.

1502
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:03,440
If you treat people with
respect.

1503
01:10:03,440 --> 01:10:05,080
I always call everybody Sir and
ma'am.

1504
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:08,120
If you come up there and say
Sir, I'm sorry to bother you,

1505
01:10:08,480 --> 01:10:11,160
but I have a call.
And I've had some people say,

1506
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:13,600
hey, you called me Sir.
You seem like a decent guy.

1507
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:15,480
What you want me to do?
They just don't want you here.

1508
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:17,400
OK, I'll leave.
You know what I mean?

1509
01:10:17,440 --> 01:10:18,880
Some of them still aren't going
to be that way.

1510
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:21,280
But same thing.
I've had so many people where

1511
01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:26,120
have just said, you know, even
people who are known criminals

1512
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:28,600
and gang members and they have
the, you know, the F the police

1513
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:31,040
tattoo on their neck.
And I call him Sir.

1514
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,920
And there's one guy who's an old
time Mexican mafia guy gangster.

1515
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:36,760
And he did, he was a robber.
He robbed a bank.

1516
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,520
And I was interviewing him and
he had F he had F the police on

1517
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:41,360
his neck.
He clearly did not like police.

1518
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:42,880
And I called him Sir the whole
time.

1519
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,640
And as I'm walking into jail, he
actually said, thanks for

1520
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:47,040
treating me with respect to
dignity.

1521
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,840
I appreciate it.
He's like, if I see you on the

1522
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:51,000
street, I'd probably try to kill
you.

1523
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:53,560
But he goes, I appreciate you
being cool with me.

1524
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:55,800
And I'm like, hey, Sir, you
know, you're a human being.

1525
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:58,040
And I appreciate you and I and I
wish you the best of luck.

1526
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:00,280
You're right.
I always found being nice to

1527
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:04,120
people, it gets you way for the.
Some folks you just can't be

1528
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:05,520
nice with because they're going
to try to kill.

1529
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:06,920
Like the guy just tried to stab
me with a knife.

1530
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:09,480
You know what I mean?
Like, yeah, my niceness was only

1531
01:11:09,480 --> 01:11:13,360
going so far, you know?
But 98% of the time, you're

1532
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,000
absolutely right.
If we just talk to people and be

1533
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:19,320
nice and show a little respect,
they may show some respect back.

1534
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:21,440
Yeah, yeah.
So.

1535
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:24,040
So what's coming up for you?
So actually, before you even you

1536
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:26,760
tell me what's coming up, I want
to ask, I wanted to ask you

1537
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,800
about the process of writing a
book or writing multiple books

1538
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:33,480
because I was a creative writing
literature major in college.

1539
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,640
And I came very, I came to the
realization very quickly that

1540
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:40,040
I'm never going to write a book
or very unlikely to write a book

1541
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:45,560
because I have a very, very hard
time keeping one overarching

1542
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:48,560
concept in my head and then
breaking it down into a lot of

1543
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:50,440
different chapters and ideas and
stuff like that.

1544
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:52,960
It's really, really hard for me.
I'm not good at writing.

1545
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:55,600
I'm good at writing short form
fiction and poetry and

1546
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:58,080
everything.
But tell me about what your what

1547
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:01,400
your what your strategy came to
you know was when it comes to

1548
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:03,800
writing and what your goals were
and what you wrote about.

1549
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:07,320
OK so I wrote a book.
So when I first got out so I

1550
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:11,200
wrote a book called On Call Put.
The link in the show not

1551
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:12,480
caption.
Awesome.

1552
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:15,840
So it, it kind of came, I never
thought again.

1553
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:17,680
I just kind of fell into it
because I never really thought

1554
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:19,920
about writing a book.
But when we were doing our, you

1555
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:23,040
know, doing our, our crime
scene, you're tired.

1556
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:27,040
And I remember thinking like,
I'm tired and I'm stressed and

1557
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:29,960
this kind of sucks, but there's
so many people in this world

1558
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:32,120
that this is an interesting job.
Like we have an I have an

1559
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:34,200
interesting job.
Not many people get to say

1560
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:36,640
they're homicide detectives.
So I was like, it's kind of

1561
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:38,880
almost like a morale booster for
me at times where it's like,

1562
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:43,440
instead of being a Debbie Downer
and saying, you know, you know,

1563
01:12:43,440 --> 01:12:46,240
like, oh, what was me?
And this is sucky and this is

1564
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:48,440
bad.
Hey, I'm doing something that a

1565
01:12:48,440 --> 01:12:51,000
lot of people would probably
want to be involved in.

1566
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:56,560
And then my wife loves watching
those two crime shows and I'm

1567
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:58,080
always watching and I'm like
that's how it goes.

1568
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:01,440
Like they miss because like they
say like OK, so this murder

1569
01:13:01,440 --> 01:13:04,080
happened and then we went and we
knocked on this guys door and we

1570
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:06,120
got him in custody.
And I'm like they missed

1571
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:10,200
something because you know, they
went from they went from A-Z and

1572
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:11,880
they didn't tell us anything in
the middle.

1573
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:15,200
Like that's not how it works.
So I kind of started getting the

1574
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:18,000
idea in my head of like it would
be, I think people would be

1575
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:20,840
really interested to see how
they really unfold and how

1576
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:22,840
sometimes it's really clean,
right?

1577
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,840
And sometimes it's really not.
Like sometimes you spend a lot

1578
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:30,360
of time looking for the wrong
person only to realize they're

1579
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:32,680
the wrong person and have to go
right back to the beginning and

1580
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:35,480
start from scratch or you're
biased.

1581
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:38,040
You know, that was AII talk
about that in the book about not

1582
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:40,000
being biased.
And I show some examples of how

1583
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:43,880
my bias affected the direction I
was going.

1584
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:48,200
And once I said, Hey, you got to
stop that, Let's let's go back

1585
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:51,280
to logic and facts and reason.
And it led me in a direction

1586
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:54,240
that led me to the truth.
So I was like, I think people

1587
01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:58,360
would be interested in that.
So I retired in 2021 and then

1588
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:02,520
about a month after retirement
is actually a former a person I

1589
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:06,040
used to work with in the Secret
Service was a subject matter

1590
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:08,520
expert for textbooks and they
wanted more subject matter

1591
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:09,880
experts for textbooks.
Cool.

1592
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:13,720
So they contacted me.
So for my first year off of in

1593
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:17,960
retirement, I was a subject
matter expert writer for two

1594
01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:20,360
criminal justice textbooks that
they use in college right now.

1595
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:23,400
And I wrote PowerPoints and also
scenarios.

1596
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:26,000
So, you know, they were like, we
want a scenario where you have

1597
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:29,080
to use or there's an exception
to the search warrant or the

1598
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:31,480
search rule or a Terry pat down
example.

1599
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:33,600
So I would use real life
example.

1600
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:35,520
You know, you're walking, you're
a cop and you're walking down

1601
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:37,960
the street at 2O clock in the
morning and you see a hand to

1602
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:40,840
hand, you know, and then you see
somebody lighting up drugs, you

1603
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:44,400
know, to approach them.
So I did that and that's why I

1604
01:14:44,400 --> 01:14:47,600
started learning about the
academic world and I started

1605
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:51,840
saying that academic policing
and real life policing are two

1606
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:54,440
different things.
You know, because you can read

1607
01:14:54,440 --> 01:14:56,840
it in a textbook, but it doesn't
happen that way in real life.

1608
01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:59,280
And again on the homicide thing.
So then I said, you know what,

1609
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:01,760
I'm going to write a book.
I wrote the first draft.

1610
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:04,960
I pitched it to some publishers.
They liked it, but they didn't

1611
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:07,280
like the content too much.
So I actually got a professional

1612
01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:11,600
editor who gave me some really
good ideas to include call outs.

1613
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:14,600
The the published book actually
has call outs.

1614
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:18,880
So it explains, it's almost like
a textbook as we talk about

1615
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:21,360
search warrants and physical
characteristics and things like

1616
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:22,800
that.
There's actually little call

1617
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:26,400
outs in there that tell you
exactly what they are.

1618
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:29,840
So like on the side of the book,
like this one's about firearm

1619
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:31,600
technology.
So this one, we're talking about

1620
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:34,640
firearms and then over here
we'll talk about the actual

1621
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,320
terminology that you'll that
you'll use.

1622
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:38,880
Like.
Casing, fired cartridges,

1623
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,760
stippling, things like that.
So little things that you can

1624
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:47,440
learn that the true crime reader
can learn and be more educated.

1625
01:15:48,440 --> 01:15:50,440
So with that I did a complete
rewrite.

1626
01:15:51,440 --> 01:15:52,880
I basically I kept the old
draft.

1627
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:54,400
It's all digital now, but I kept
the old draft.

1628
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:57,800
But I basically started from the
from scratch and rewrote the

1629
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:02,680
whole thing.
And just like you, I don't sit

1630
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:05,960
stillwell, So I decided that
each chapter was going to be

1631
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:09,000
about 20 to 30 pages and cover
one case.

1632
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:13,640
So you can sit in one in one
sitting and read because also

1633
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:16,520
not a lot of people have time to
sit and read a 300 page book

1634
01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:18,560
about 1 case.
You're going to walk away from

1635
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:21,080
it for a couple days and you're
going to lose track of what's

1636
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:24,000
going on.
So each chapter, there's 11

1637
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,720
chapters that cover 13 cases.
And that that case is broken

1638
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:31,360
down from the call out being the
first time that you're called

1639
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:34,560
out as a detective all the way
to prosecution and sentencing.

1640
01:16:35,480 --> 01:16:37,480
And you break it down in 25
pages.

1641
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:41,200
And each and each chapter talks
about a legal aspect.

1642
01:16:41,480 --> 01:16:45,400
I talk about jury selection, I
talk about testifying, about

1643
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:50,000
search warrants, making photo
line UPS, how photo lamps are

1644
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:52,760
good, how photo lamps are bad,
the difference in crimes.

1645
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:55,040
Everybody always if you, if
somebody breaks in your house,

1646
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:57,880
you always say I got robbed.
Actually you did, you got

1647
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:01,040
burgled.
So I explained robbery is where

1648
01:17:01,040 --> 01:17:03,280
somebody takes something from
your person by force.

1649
01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:05,800
Burglary is if they take
something from your property by

1650
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:07,360
force.
But even the media is like, oh,

1651
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:10,120
there was a robbery, not a
robbery, that's a burglary.

1652
01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:14,320
So I'm trying because I wanted
people to be knowledgeable and

1653
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:18,440
educated and also question what
they hear and see both in the

1654
01:17:18,440 --> 01:17:22,440
news and on TV and question it
and say, OK, they're saying

1655
01:17:22,440 --> 01:17:24,160
this, but what really happened
on the back end?

1656
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:25,840
Like what did they really have
on there?

1657
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:29,800
And don't just take what you're
told for fact because we're just

1658
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:31,040
sometimes we're just told
things.

1659
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:35,280
So after the full rewrite.
And so then it a publisher liked

1660
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:40,120
it, they published it and it it
was about a 2 1/2 year process

1661
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:43,400
for writing the book.
And I really enjoyed it and we.

1662
01:17:43,400 --> 01:17:45,040
Enjoyed it?
I enjoyed it.

1663
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:48,480
I enjoyed it was fun.
As for my writing style, I kind

1664
01:17:48,480 --> 01:17:51,360
of tried to write it like a
police report almost cool.

1665
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:56,280
I tried to write it like it's.
I wanted it to be for true crime

1666
01:17:56,280 --> 01:17:59,640
readers, but also for younger
detectives because as you're

1667
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:01,560
growing up in the detective
world, like when I became a beer

1668
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:04,680
run detective, that's because
there's no detective school.

1669
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:07,520
You have a recruit Academy to be
an officer.

1670
01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:10,480
There's no Academy for being a
detective.

1671
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:14,240
You have to learn as you go.
So by the time you become a

1672
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:16,240
homicide detective, you you test
into it.

1673
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:18,240
You have to have a good
reputation and you have to have

1674
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:20,240
a knowledge of it.
You can't be brand new and go to

1675
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:21,960
homicide because you're just not
going to know it.

1676
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:25,160
This is kind of a little bit of
a learning tool where if

1677
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:27,840
somebody's interested in doing
that as a career or in the

1678
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:31,720
career and interested in doing
violent crime, homicide or

1679
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:35,600
complex investigations, it gives
them an idea of kind of things

1680
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:38,280
that I did.
And I really focus on this 5050

1681
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:42,320
of my successes and my failures.
I really focus on that because

1682
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:44,200
I, I, I did things where I
thought out-of-the-box.

1683
01:18:44,200 --> 01:18:45,240
I'm like, I'm thinking
out-of-the-box.

1684
01:18:45,240 --> 01:18:47,200
I'm smarter than everybody.
Let's do this.

1685
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:50,080
And it totally didn't work.
And I want to let people know

1686
01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:52,200
that because it might work in
your case, but it didn't.

1687
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:54,800
Work in other times where?
I think out-of-the-box and it

1688
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:57,160
worked.
And it's like they go, wow, that

1689
01:18:57,160 --> 01:19:00,280
I didn't even think about that.
But yeah, I, I just, I literally

1690
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:04,000
just thought of it so.
Can, can I, I guess I want to

1691
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:08,320
actually ask your thoughts on
two, I guess recent and very

1692
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:11,680
famous, you know, scenarios, I
guess that you'd probably have

1693
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:17,000
experienced both in first of
all, the last year when when

1694
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:22,600
Trump got shot at.
And I get, I know that the

1695
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:25,720
Secret Service got grilled for
that, but that would that have

1696
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:30,040
been part of the field work that
would have been responsible for

1697
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:33,240
to see the different potential
positions that people could have

1698
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:36,800
been entering?
And if so, were they held

1699
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:39,120
responsible or should they have?
Or what would you have done

1700
01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:41,480
differently about that?
Or from your experience, what

1701
01:19:41,480 --> 01:19:42,640
what?
What went right or wrong about

1702
01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:46,040
that?
Yeah, so, so I was not, so I was

1703
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:47,280
not in the Secret Service at the
time.

1704
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:50,120
I have no inside knowledge on it
at all.

1705
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:51,320
I I.
Yes, of course, and.

1706
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:54,000
I and I also.
Just take the day.

1707
01:19:54,480 --> 01:19:56,040
Some time for that kind of
stuff.

1708
01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:01,160
But what I would say is, is that
on from my perspective as having

1709
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:04,320
been in those events.
Yeah, that was a lapse in the

1710
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:06,800
advance.
So when a president goes

1711
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:09,800
somewhere or any dictionary goes
somewhere, they'll do an advance

1712
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:12,480
where they'll say, hey, we need
this kind of resource.

1713
01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:14,400
So we need a cop here, We need a
cop here.

1714
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:15,560
This is going to be the entry
point.

1715
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:16,920
These are the vehicles we're
going to stay at.

1716
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:19,600
You know, they would even plan
like if something bad happens,

1717
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:22,080
this is the this is the airport
we're going to, this is the

1718
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:24,040
hospital we're going to.
All of that.

1719
01:20:24,480 --> 01:20:27,120
What I saw when I saw that and,
and I watched it on the news

1720
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:29,240
like everybody else.
And, and I was also kind of

1721
01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:30,720
enthralled in it because it was
my old thing.

1722
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:36,200
That was a huge lapse of
communication, I think, and

1723
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:40,680
advanced planning because I
still am not clear as a citizen

1724
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,040
who was responsible for watching
that roof.

1725
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:46,320
Because the Secret Service said,
oh, that was the locals and the

1726
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:48,240
locals are saying that was
Secret Service.

1727
01:20:48,440 --> 01:20:51,320
So clearly they were not
communicating, you know what I

1728
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:51,840
mean?
So.

1729
01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:56,680
I, I I.
Think it was poor communication,

1730
01:20:56,680 --> 01:20:59,600
I think it was poor planning and
I also think complacency.

1731
01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:02,080
Yeah.
When I was in the Secret

1732
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:06,160
Service, we were also very
complacent and, and right after

1733
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:11,240
I left, I left in February of
2001, September 2020 of 2001,

1734
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:14,880
911 happened.
And talking to people that I had

1735
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:18,480
been in the Secret Service and I
was in the PD at the time, the

1736
01:21:18,480 --> 01:21:21,560
local PD, but I would talk to my
friends that were still in and

1737
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:25,800
they had said it changed like no
more, you know, sleeping on duty

1738
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:27,640
or things like that because it
was very complacent.

1739
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:31,080
Nothing was ever happened.
So when I was in, no one had

1740
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:32,640
ever tried.
The last attempt on a

1741
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:36,000
president's life serious attempt
was Reagan.

1742
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:39,160
And that was in the 80s.
So that had been almost what,

1743
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:42,760
almost 1819 years?
They didn't even happen.

1744
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:45,800
And people get complacent.
And I think that's what happened

1745
01:21:45,800 --> 01:21:48,720
here is they were thinking it's
Pennsylvania, it's small town

1746
01:21:48,720 --> 01:21:50,720
Pennsylvania.
Everybody loves Trump.

1747
01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:53,880
He's not in really any danger.
No one's going to shoot him.

1748
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:55,600
You know what I mean?
Like, you don't think that, you

1749
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:59,760
know, but unfortunately in the
protective world, you have to

1750
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:01,840
think worst case scenario, you
know, your little member, the

1751
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,680
Rolodex and the monkey has to
go, ooh, guy on the rooftop

1752
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:06,920
shooting.
And I think so now for the next

1753
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:09,560
1015 years, that's all they'll
focus on his rooftops.

1754
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:11,720
Sure you with that.
And the Charlie Kirk thing,

1755
01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:15,360
they'll focus on rooftop, but
then some criminal will figure

1756
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:17,680
another thing out that we didn't
think of.

1757
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:20,080
And then we're going to have to
add that Rolodex in there again

1758
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:21,920
and go, oh, now we got to think
about this.

1759
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:24,560
You know, before 911, we never
thought about airplanes into a

1760
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:26,240
building.
Nobody ever thought about that.

1761
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:27,920
That wasn't a thing.
You know, if you mentioned that,

1762
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:29,400
you'd be like, I mean, it's even
possible.

1763
01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:32,560
You know.
It's something you've seen in a

1764
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:34,360
movie, like no one's going to do
that.

1765
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:37,880
So that's kind of my thing on
that is I think it was really

1766
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:41,720
lack of plan, complacency, lack
of planning.

1767
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:46,080
And like I said, as a private
citizen who watched it, I still

1768
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:48,360
am not clear who was supposed to
be watching that rooftop.

1769
01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:49,760
And I don't think they were
either.

1770
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:52,280
I think everybody else kind of
had that thing of like, oh,

1771
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:55,080
that's their responsibility.
I'm going to focus on this and.

1772
01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:57,840
Yeah, The other thing I was
thinking, the other thing I was

1773
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:02,960
thinking about that was also,
and I forgot where I heard this

1774
01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:05,200
from recently, It's probably ATV
show or a movie or something.

1775
01:23:05,440 --> 01:23:10,000
No, maybe it was a book, but it
was that we don't know all the

1776
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:13,880
right times that they've stopped
hundreds of thousands of

1777
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:15,760
attempts, you know, because we
don't, because they don't

1778
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:18,440
publicize it very often, you
know, unless it's unless it's,

1779
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:21,800
unless it's happened in such a
public way that it gets reported

1780
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:22,280
on.
Right.

1781
01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:25,640
But I mean, if, if the, if the,
if the agents do their job the

1782
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:30,280
right way, they can eliminate
the threat before anyone even

1783
01:23:30,280 --> 01:23:32,280
knows about it.
And then they don't want anyone

1784
01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:34,000
to know about it because they
don't want to hear about how

1785
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:35,520
they caught it.
You know, how they caught the

1786
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:37,320
person, you know that they're
trying to perpetrate it.

1787
01:23:37,320 --> 01:23:40,480
So, so the other thing is like
we give everyone, we give them a

1788
01:23:40,480 --> 01:23:43,240
very, very hard time, but we
have no idea how many thousands

1789
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:45,640
of other opportunities, you
know, situations had occurred

1790
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:48,280
leading up to that or in the,
you know, previously been

1791
01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:51,840
assessed or acted on that may
have led that someone to act

1792
01:23:51,840 --> 01:23:54,240
differently because of their
previous experience they thought

1793
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:56,000
had, you know, would have been
successful.

1794
01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:58,120
I don't know.
It's just something else that

1795
01:23:58,120 --> 01:24:00,960
that that came to mind.
And the second question also was

1796
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:04,560
also I guess, and that this
would be more about your your,

1797
01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:08,200
your homicide experience.
Was it Charlie Kirk?

1798
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:10,800
I was going to ask about that.
What are some of your thoughts?

1799
01:24:11,640 --> 01:24:16,520
And I am not a conspiracy nut by
any stretch of the imagination,

1800
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:19,880
although I hear I hear some of
them out and kind of try to do

1801
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:23,920
my own homework on some of them.
And I don't honestly, I don't

1802
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:27,680
know what to make of any of it
other than just how terrible it

1803
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:28,640
is.
But do you have any?

1804
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:31,080
Did you have any thoughts or
observations as it was happening

1805
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:33,880
or anything since then?
I haven't really.

1806
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:35,800
I've been paying a lot to the
conspiracy.

1807
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:38,960
I remember I watched it when it
first happened and I remember

1808
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:41,720
when it first happened, there
was that really close up video

1809
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:46,400
on on YouTube or TikTok, one of
the two.

1810
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:48,920
And I remember I downloaded the
video and I went frame by frame

1811
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:50,360
like I used to do in the old
days.

1812
01:24:50,400 --> 01:24:50,680
You.
Know.

1813
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:51,880
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, Frame.

1814
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:55,160
And I can tell that that, you
know, as a homicide detective,

1815
01:24:55,160 --> 01:24:58,920
when I saw that shot, you know,
and they were like always in the

1816
01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:01,240
hospital and, you know, and one
news report was like, oh, he's

1817
01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:02,720
standing.
I'm like, I don't think that's a

1818
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:07,800
survivable shot.
That was a really bad place.

1819
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:10,760
That's a bad place to get shot
in, in the neck.

1820
01:25:13,160 --> 01:25:15,560
And again, and, and, and the
conspiracy theories, I haven't

1821
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:18,960
heard a whole lot of them
because I kind of don't buy some

1822
01:25:18,960 --> 01:25:22,840
of those conspiracy theories.
You know, I, I, I kind of don't.

1823
01:25:22,840 --> 01:25:25,960
And I know like he was asked a
question about either a shooter

1824
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:29,120
or something and then the shot
came off.

1825
01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:32,920
But for that to happen, do you
realize and being a firearms

1826
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:36,680
person, it's hard to shoot
somebody anyway, right?

1827
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:39,120
It's hard.
And even though the guy had a

1828
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:42,040
hunting rifle and it wasn't that
hard of a shot, it still takes a

1829
01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:48,920
little bit of concentration.
But but to place a shot, right,

1830
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:51,360
when somebody says to shoot,
yeah.

1831
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:54,800
And then actually making that
shot, that's like Navy SEAL type

1832
01:25:54,800 --> 01:25:57,120
stuff, right?
And this guy is no Navy SEAL.

1833
01:25:57,120 --> 01:25:59,920
He was a hunter who had a little
bit of hunting experience with

1834
01:25:59,920 --> 01:26:03,200
that rifle and, and and he shot
somebody with that rifle.

1835
01:26:03,520 --> 01:26:06,640
So I don't necessarily buy that.
Yeah, I don't.

1836
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:11,480
I, I, I'm not, I, I don't, I'm
not convinced of much.

1837
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:15,600
It has to be like one of those
things where it's a very clear

1838
01:26:17,040 --> 01:26:19,600
correlation or connection and
then there's just absolutely no

1839
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:21,480
response for me to be like, how
come there's no response but

1840
01:26:21,480 --> 01:26:24,160
like this doesn't that that did
not seem like a particularly.

1841
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:26,000
What makes you think there's a
conspiracy?

1842
01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:28,200
Is it because there's not a lot
of information available?

1843
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:30,520
I think so.
I think so.

1844
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:33,760
And apparently there's a gag
order just placed on like

1845
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:37,880
several 1000 people, which is
also the and again, maybe it's

1846
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:40,880
not a conspiracy and maybe by
the way, it's just, it's just a

1847
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:43,720
case that they're working on.
And in, in cases are really hard

1848
01:26:43,720 --> 01:26:46,480
to, you know, when my when my
students were asking me like,

1849
01:26:46,600 --> 01:26:49,520
how did they get the wrong guy?
And I'm like, if I was like, you

1850
01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:51,840
don't understand.
You're gonna be in College in a

1851
01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:54,080
couple of years, guys.
You're gonna have a guy come to

1852
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:57,040
your campus that's considered
controversial.

1853
01:26:57,280 --> 01:26:59,560
And you're gonna go with your
friends and drink a lot of beer

1854
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:01,040
and hang out and maybe smoke a
Jay.

1855
01:27:01,040 --> 01:27:02,960
And then you're gonna go with
the whole crowd of people and

1856
01:27:02,960 --> 01:27:04,720
watch them fight with people.
And you gonna be like, this is a

1857
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:06,160
great time.
And then I was like, and then

1858
01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:08,400
something happens and everyone's
panicking.

1859
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:10,200
I was like, who's a reliable
witness?

1860
01:27:10,200 --> 01:27:11,840
Who's, who recounts what they
saw?

1861
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:14,080
Who's paying any attention to
anything going on over there?

1862
01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:16,840
And maybe just that there's so
much information and there's

1863
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:20,600
such little accurate, you know,
accounting of what's going on

1864
01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:22,280
that that's just really hard to
find.

1865
01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:24,160
You know, I, I'm not, I'm not
sold.

1866
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:26,680
I'm not sold any way on anything
other than just it was a

1867
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:29,640
tragedy, you know?
And and a lot of times I think

1868
01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:31,880
the gaggler so arresting that
one dude.

1869
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:34,480
First off, I mean, you can't
blame local police because at

1870
01:27:34,480 --> 01:27:35,960
first I was like, well, why
would they arrest him?

1871
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:37,320
But apparently he started
yelling.

1872
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:39,160
I did it.
I did it.

1873
01:27:39,280 --> 01:27:42,000
You can't as a cop just be like,
no, you didn't and just walk

1874
01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:44,280
away like you're a crazy dude.
No, you didn't.

1875
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:47,320
No, you'd pounce on him, put him
in handcuffs, even though more

1876
01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:49,600
than likely he didn't do it.
Like, he doesn't have a rifle.

1877
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:53,240
He's right there.
I mean, you know, But you, yeah,

1878
01:27:53,240 --> 01:27:55,440
as a responsible, like, I think
most people would understand,

1879
01:27:55,440 --> 01:27:57,760
you can't just walk away from
that guy and go go away, crazy

1880
01:27:57,760 --> 01:27:59,520
man.
So they're focused on getting

1881
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:02,200
him in custody.
The gag order.

1882
01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:08,840
I can see a lot of times we try
cases in the media and in social

1883
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:12,000
and in the social world before
they even go to trial.

1884
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:15,040
And I think they're from the gag
order in my perception is

1885
01:28:15,040 --> 01:28:18,600
they're trying to stop that.
But when you do that, it does

1886
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:19,800
seem like they're hiding
something.

1887
01:28:19,800 --> 01:28:22,720
I'm not even going to lie.
And and the conspiracy, when I

1888
01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:25,280
was in the military, I was
really big on the JFK conspiracy

1889
01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:27,520
conspiracy.
And all those books have just

1890
01:28:27,520 --> 01:28:29,760
come out.
JFK, the movie just came out.

1891
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:31,880
And I remember when I was in the
military, I read all the books

1892
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:34,800
and I was convinced the CIA and
the mob did it and this and

1893
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:37,160
that.
And then as I got older and I

1894
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:39,080
read more to it and I started
seeing it.

1895
01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:41,680
I went to Dealey Plaza once on,
you know, vacation when I saw

1896
01:28:41,680 --> 01:28:44,720
where that all of it happened.
And you're kind of like, maybe

1897
01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:46,560
he did just do it.
You know what I mean?

1898
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:50,240
It's really odd and weird, but
maybe he did, you know?

1899
01:28:50,240 --> 01:28:52,480
And then it comes out, they
release all the files, and

1900
01:28:52,480 --> 01:28:55,560
everybody's kind of like, yeah,
it looks like he probably did it

1901
01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:57,920
on his own.
Were there things behind the

1902
01:28:57,920 --> 01:28:59,040
scenes?
Maybe.

1903
01:28:59,480 --> 01:29:02,520
But yeah, I, I think sometimes
we want things to be bigger than

1904
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:06,320
they are and not just realize
that sometimes, like this

1905
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:10,000
Charlie Kirk situation, that guy
had the perfect opportunity at

1906
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:13,640
the perfect moment, was able to
get into the perfect spot, make

1907
01:29:13,640 --> 01:29:14,640
a shot.
That was.

1908
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:16,640
Everybody says it was, oh,
that's an easy shot.

1909
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:21,160
I've shot at 200 yards, even
with a rifle, it's kind of easy,

1910
01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:23,560
but it's not.
If you've never handled a gun,

1911
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:25,120
you're not doing it.
You know, you got to have a

1912
01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:28,760
little bit and you're shooting
another human being, you're

1913
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:31,040
stressed, you're thinking about
am I going to get caught?

1914
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:32,880
Am I going to get that?
So you got to add the stress

1915
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:35,080
factor on there as well.
So that probably.

1916
01:29:35,080 --> 01:29:37,120
On some couple of drugs you
probably drugged up in some sort

1917
01:29:37,120 --> 01:29:38,200
of way.
Yeah, that's true.

1918
01:29:38,240 --> 01:29:39,800
That's true.
So you know.

1919
01:29:40,040 --> 01:29:43,800
It was there was a lot of things
that went on that guy's side

1920
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:50,080
that make that come true.
So I don't know, is there AI

1921
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:52,640
kind of try to stay away from
the conspiracies because

1922
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:56,440
everything turns into a
conspiracy because we think

1923
01:29:56,440 --> 01:29:58,120
everybody's lying to us.
And if you think everybody's

1924
01:29:58,120 --> 01:30:01,080
lying to us, then you really
have to start wondering what do

1925
01:30:01,080 --> 01:30:03,040
I believe on anything?
And then we just start believing

1926
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:06,480
from people that we that we want
to believe and then we're biased

1927
01:30:06,480 --> 01:30:07,200
on that.
So.

1928
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:08,760
Yeah, that becomes a lot harder,
right?

1929
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:09,520
Exactly.
Yeah.

1930
01:30:09,600 --> 01:30:12,760
And that's what makes.
That's what you got to do a lot

1931
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:15,560
of these things per diem almost,
you know, But like, you know,

1932
01:30:15,560 --> 01:30:19,680
the question of do are any
conspiracy theories real?

1933
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:21,960
It's like, well, you think the
government is 100% telling the

1934
01:30:21,960 --> 01:30:24,280
truth on everything that's ever
happened, you know, in the last

1935
01:30:24,280 --> 01:30:26,600
100 years, like, well, probably
not 100%, you know.

1936
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:29,680
So of the ones that they are,
which ones is true and which

1937
01:30:29,680 --> 01:30:33,320
ones not?
And I actually think that, you

1938
01:30:33,320 --> 01:30:36,000
know, to be able to and, and
it's never, ever going to

1939
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:37,280
happen.
But like in this hopelessly

1940
01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:41,160
romantic, you know, world or
this idealistic world where

1941
01:30:41,160 --> 01:30:44,080
people would say, Hey, you know
what, we did it, we screwed up.

1942
01:30:44,080 --> 01:30:45,920
There's accountability.
This person's, you know, this

1943
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:47,400
person's in jail, this person's
fired.

1944
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:49,680
This person, you know, loses
their classification, will never

1945
01:30:49,680 --> 01:30:51,680
go, you know, step foot into
public service again.

1946
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:56,560
And then you say, now do you
know, we, we now illicit trust,

1947
01:30:56,560 --> 01:30:58,840
like we say, you know, now we
are now, now we, now we're

1948
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:01,600
standing, you know, but to, to,
I think that, I think that what

1949
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:04,880
gets a lot of people frustrated
is the feeling of being gaslit

1950
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:08,600
or being told no, no, no, no,
no, you know, and, and so then

1951
01:31:08,600 --> 01:31:10,880
that's when the slippery slope
kind of starts happening.

1952
01:31:11,480 --> 01:31:14,680
It's hard, but it's, it's also,
it's also like you said, you

1953
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:16,280
know, once you don't know who to
believe, you don't believe, you

1954
01:31:16,280 --> 01:31:18,880
become biased and you just start
thinking everything about

1955
01:31:18,880 --> 01:31:21,040
everyone, you know, and it's
like, OK, forget about it.

1956
01:31:21,040 --> 01:31:25,080
I'm sorry.
I've seen some experience media

1957
01:31:25,320 --> 01:31:28,480
and people with public fig or
with with a public voice will

1958
01:31:28,480 --> 01:31:32,840
make a statement that is
absolutely not true, that is

1959
01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:35,720
straight up not true.
But they have a voice, you know

1960
01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:37,480
what I mean?
And people believe them, so they

1961
01:31:37,480 --> 01:31:41,080
believe that.
And I always bring up the thing

1962
01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:48,560
of the George Floyd murder.
When it first happened, they

1963
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:52,680
mentioned excited delirium and I
remember watching a news thing

1964
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:55,040
where they said excited delirium
isn't a thing.

1965
01:31:55,720 --> 01:31:57,760
It's a made-up word and it's not
a thing.

1966
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:01,920
And regardless of the of the
whole George Floyd thing, I

1967
01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:04,680
remember hearing that.
I think no, it's not because

1968
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:07,000
police officers have been
trained in it.

1969
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:10,360
Like we have had hours and hours
and hours of training.

1970
01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:12,360
Excited delirium is a real
thing.

1971
01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:16,040
But I was watching these people
and there's like 3 experts and

1972
01:32:16,040 --> 01:32:17,920
they're all saying no, excited
delirium isn't a thing.

1973
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:19,680
It's proven in court not to be a
thing.

1974
01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:22,960
It's like, no, they're wrong.
It is, you know what I mean?

1975
01:32:23,200 --> 01:32:24,760
But nobody's going to listen to
me.

1976
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:27,320
I'm at the time I was a
detective and I'm not saying

1977
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:29,320
anything.
I'm like, yeah, you, you believe

1978
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:31,520
you, You know what I mean?
Let let the court forgot.

1979
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:34,520
So that was an example where I
saw for certain that people had

1980
01:32:34,520 --> 01:32:37,480
no idea what they were talking
about and then saying it.

1981
01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:40,720
And I'm sure it happens a lot
because I don't know everything.

1982
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:43,520
And people say things that I
believe because I trust them,

1983
01:32:44,520 --> 01:32:46,400
but I don't do the research on
it, you know what I mean?

1984
01:32:46,400 --> 01:32:48,640
And maybe I should, maybe I
should be Googling more of like,

1985
01:32:48,640 --> 01:32:51,400
hey, is this real?
And and then you got to wonder,

1986
01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:53,760
is that real?
So, so if you go down the

1987
01:32:53,760 --> 01:32:56,680
conspiratorial thing, it just
goes forever and ever and ever.

1988
01:32:56,680 --> 01:32:58,120
But I think that's a big thing.
It's a lot of.

1989
01:32:58,280 --> 01:33:01,000
From experience, it does and you
have to pull yourself out of it

1990
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:02,960
before it before it drives you
nuts.

1991
01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:04,440
You know I.
Think we always have to remember

1992
01:33:04,440 --> 01:33:07,480
this is that we think everything
is a conspiracy.

1993
01:33:07,480 --> 01:33:10,160
And I think more than likely
it's incompetence.

1994
01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:12,560
There's a lot, there's a lot of
people.

1995
01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:14,920
I've met a lot of politicians.
I've met a lot of people in

1996
01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:17,720
power and things like that.
And I will say not all of them

1997
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:20,720
are competent people.
You know, they're not all

1998
01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:23,600
politicians are good people.
There are politicians who are

1999
01:33:23,720 --> 01:33:26,840
I've met them.
They are bad people and but they

2000
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:28,000
get elected and that's the
thing.

2001
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:29,800
That's fine.
That's their job.

2002
01:33:29,800 --> 01:33:33,000
But I think we have to stop
taking everybody just because we

2003
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:36,880
see it on a podcast and go, oh,
that's, that's the truth.

2004
01:33:37,040 --> 01:33:39,480
When you watch another podcast
and go, OK, now that's the

2005
01:33:39,480 --> 01:33:41,560
truth.
Yeah, for ourselves a little

2006
01:33:41,560 --> 01:33:43,520
bit.
And we have the world at our

2007
01:33:43,520 --> 01:33:47,440
fingertips with AI and Google
and the Internet, whatever you

2008
01:33:47,440 --> 01:33:50,000
use, we have the world at our
fingertips.

2009
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:52,560
We should be our own detectives
and figure our own stuff out and

2010
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:55,280
maybe listen to ourselves
because we're not all experts,

2011
01:33:55,440 --> 01:33:56,880
you know?
We're not all experts on

2012
01:33:56,880 --> 01:33:58,560
everything, right?
Right, right, right.

2013
01:33:58,680 --> 01:34:01,360
It reminds me of, what do you
call it, that scene ever in

2014
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:07,840
Cheers when Woody Harrelson runs
for runs for office and he wins

2015
01:34:07,840 --> 01:34:11,320
by saying all the wrong things.
It's like, yeah, well, there you

2016
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:13,360
go.
Anyway, Justin, I really

2017
01:34:13,360 --> 01:34:15,480
appreciate your time.
This is such a this is such a

2018
01:34:15,480 --> 01:34:17,600
fun and fascinating
conversation.

2019
01:34:17,600 --> 01:34:20,640
And this has really been really,
really informative and a lot of

2020
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:23,760
fun.
And I I really appreciate your

2021
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:28,040
time and thank you so much.
Thank you for all the service

2022
01:34:28,040 --> 01:34:29,480
and all the great work
throughout the years.

2023
01:34:29,480 --> 01:34:32,800
This really means a lot and I
wish you lots of luck, hopefully

2024
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:35,040
be in touch and I'm very excited
to hear about what you got

2025
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:36,360
coming up next, OK?
Yes.

2026
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:37,800
Thank you very much.
I appreciate your time.

2027
01:34:38,320 --> 01:34:39,520
All right, take care.
Bye, bye now.