#125: John Perkins / Economic Hitman / Death and Life Economies / China / Central and South America

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and We Are Live.
John Perkins.

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Mr. Perkins, John, thank you so
much for doing this.

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I am I'm so excited that to be
talking to you.

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How are you?
Great.

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It's my my pleasure to be with
you, Ephraim.

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Thank you so much.
Thank you.

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So as a quick introduction, I,
I, I, I mentioned to you when

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you spoke the other day, but I
read your book and it

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immediately blew my mind that
the confessions of an economic

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hitman and did.
And I'm going to try to make the

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conversation, I guess, or ask my
questions as pointed and

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condensed as possible.
So we could try and make this,

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you know, as, as you know, as
packed with information as it

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could be.
But can you give me a brief

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breakdown of what the with the
hitman Dubai?

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I found your YouTube little
animation that I thought was

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really excellent.
So I'm going to post the link to

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that too.
But you know what, what what?

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What was your responsibility?
Yeah, I should say that that

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animation I had nothing to do
with.

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It just appeared it uses my
voice but they never asked my

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permission.
No.

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I I often use it 'cause I don't,
I don't ask their permission.

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I've actually tried, but they
don't seem to exist anymore.

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But I love it.
I think it's a great video and I

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like to say it's very humbling
because it does in 2 minutes

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what I have to spend 250 pages
in a book to try to do.

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And it pretty much covers what
an economic hitman does.

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So, yeah.
So it's it's it's pretty

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hilarious.
It's a lot of fun.

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So I I encourage your viewers to
watch.

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It's accurate.
It's very accurate.

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It felt like it.
It felt like the best SparkNotes

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I've ever seen.
Exactly.

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So yeah, my real title is chief
economist at a major Boston

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based consulting firm.
And but you know, I had a staff

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of anywhere from 10 to 50 people
at different times.

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And what my job really entailed
was identifying countries with

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resources our corporations
covet, like oil or other

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resources.
Today, it might be one of the

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rare minerals and, and lithium
cobalt things that are used in

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high tech.
And once we identify that

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country, to convince the country
to take a huge loan from the

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World Bank or one of its sister
organizations, the money never

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actually went to the country.
The resource was used as

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collateral.
So the country signed off on the

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loan, but the money actually
went to our own corporations,

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big engineering corporations
like Bechtel or Halliburton or

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Brown and Rood or Stone and
Webster to build large

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infrastructure projects in that
country.

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Things like electric power
systems, highways, ports,

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airports, industrial parks.
And these were things that

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benefited a few wealthy families
in those countries, the people

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who own the businesses, the
industries, the commercial

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establishments.
And they benefited tremendously

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from this improved
infrastructure, as of course did

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international corporations, our
corporations, and of course the,

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the, the, the engineering
companies that built the

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projects made huge profits off
of it.

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But the majority of the people
in a country suffered because

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money was diverted from from
education, healthcare and other

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social services to pay the
interest on the loans.

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And in the end, the country
couldn't pay the principal.

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So we'd go back, usually under
the guise of the International

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Monetary Fund and say, hey,
since you can't pay your, your,

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your debts, you, you owe us,
sell your oil real cheap.

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It's, it's your collateral.
Sell it real cheap to our oil

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companies without environmental
or social regulations.

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Let us build a military based on
your soil.

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Sell, sell off your, your water
and sewage systems and other

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Public Utilities to our
investors.

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Vote with us on the next United
Nations vote here.

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See Cuba or some such thing.
And in that way, we were really

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building a global economy.
Yeah, and that was, and as I was

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reading the book, I think even
within the 1st 1015 pages, I, I

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was struck and then it was kept
on getting further reinforced,

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but by the notion that there was
America, the empire that was

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acting along the interests of
any empire, which is to expand.

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And then there's America, the
homeland, which is, you know,

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the people that are kind of just
funding and living there.

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The question I wanted to ask is
when we like, you know, for

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example, let's say
hypothetically or like in your

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case, when you, when you were
dealing with working in Panama

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and you know, the government,
let's say we gave or the World

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Bank gave a loan to the, to the
government of Panama to build

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the infrastructure.
That that's a sense that's

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taxpayer dollars going to going
to the country, correct?

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It's American taxpayer dollars
going to Panama.

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Yes, often very indirectly
through the World Bank or the

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Inter American Development Bank.
Yeah, which the the the United

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States is not the only, but the
primary financer of those

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institutions.
And then it's paid back at the

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end of the loan.
Who?

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Who gets who?
Who Who is Panama paid return

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the loan to to directly to the
corporations that are doing the

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work or to the World Bank?
No, to the World Bank.

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The World Bank makes the loan,
then the money is used to hire

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American companies to build
these infrastructure projects.

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And I should mention also that
it, it was my job was pretty

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easy because the, the, you know,
I, I, I like to make the kind

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of, it's a metaphor.
But I, I say that, you know, I

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walk into a president's office
and say, hey, in this hand, I've

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got a few billion dollars to
build these projects that are

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going to help you and your
friends and your family because

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you own, you own the industries.
And if you don't agree to this

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deal, and this is how I got a
gun.

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And I didn't actually carry a
gun, but I knew and he knew the

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president knew the people right
behind me, we called jackals did

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carry guns.
And we have a long history of

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overthrowing or assassinating
governments.

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For example, a Hendi in Chile
and harbins in Guatemala and

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Mossadegh in Iran and on and on
and on.

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The list is very long.
So, so you know, the president's

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faced with this choice, do I
take this money and and put my

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country deep into debt and help
my family and friends, or do I

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risk being overthrown or
assassinated?

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Yeah, it's a pretty impossible
position to be in, I imagine,

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you know.
Well, it's not much of A choice,

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frankly, for most people now.
The President of Ecuador, Jaime

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Roldos, and the president and
the head of state of of Panama,

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Omar Torrijos, were the only
clients I had that that did not

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buy the deal.
They took the risk and they both

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ended up dying very suspicious
deaths in their private

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airplanes.
Well, and they were both people

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that you admired greatly, right?
I mean, at least the tone in

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your book indicates that they
were both very admirable.

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And, you know.
Yeah, great people.

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Yeah, they were guys with a lot
of integrity.

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And I, I frankly had mixed
feelings because my job was to

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bring them around, you know, and
I, I was, I was ambitious.

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I wanted to be successful in my
job.

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But I also liked them,
especially Omar Torrijos of

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Panama, who was extremely
charismatic.

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He was a party animal.
He was a really good president,

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but he also liked to enjoy life.
And we became quite good.

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I felt like we were good
friends.

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And so, you know, I had very,
very mixed feelings that I

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wanted to succeed at my job.
But on the other hand, I really

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admired these guys for taking
your stand.

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I, I, I was idealistic and it
made to sound to your listeners

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like, well, no, how could you be
idealistic and do this job?

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But for most of the time I did
the job, I believed I was doing

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the right thing.
Because statistically we can

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show that when you invest this
money in, in infrastructure

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projects in a poor country, you
grow the economy, the GDP

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increases rapidly and
significantly.

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And it does.
And GDP per capita, which makes

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it sounds as sound as though
everybody in the country is

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doing better per capita.
Wow, That's everybody.

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And so that's what I was taught
in Business School.

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And the World Bank continued to
promote this.

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And so I believed in this for a
lot of the time.

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And it was really Omar Torrijos
of Panama who took me aside one

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time and said, John, don't you
realize that you're lying to

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yourself and to the world?
GDP only measures how well the

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really wealthy are doing in the
big international corporations.

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It measures how what kind of
wealth they're bringing to the

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rich people of the country.
And GDP per capita is simply

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that number divided by the
number of people in a country.

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Doesn't really tell you anything
about how well the the average

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citizen is doing.
Right, right, right.

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So you say, is there in a in AI
guess in a more ideal world, in

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a little bit more of a, let's
say moral way or a fairway of,

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you know, trying to make these
kind of deals?

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What would be the, what steps
along the way would enable the

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population of the country that
you're actually giving the loan

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to to actually succeed?
Would it be that the interest

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wouldn't be as high?
Would it be that you're not

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giving them a loan that's so
huge that they couldn't afford

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to pay back?
It would be a smaller loan.

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What would, what would have to
be the steps that would actually

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allow a country to actually
become, you know, more wealthy

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and more and more modernized, I
guess.

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That's a that's a key question
and it's a question that I had.

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I just, I spent a lot of time in
Latin America today and I, I

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just came back from a former
Soviet country and, and, and the

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Middle East and Europe.
And I'm asked that question a

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lot by these countries and by
African countries.

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And my response is, you know,
that the, the only that I think

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the best way in the long run is
to recognize that, that you have

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resources that the world wants
that otherwise we wouldn't be

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doing this.
And in the case of Africa, it's

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the wealthiest continent in the
world on a based on resources.

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And the poorest.
Yeah.

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I mean, it's got the most
resources.

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It's got incredible resources,
probably Latin America's second.

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And yet they're very poor from a
from a human standpoint, from an

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average human standpoint.
And but if they could come

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together, could unite and say,
you know, like we're not going

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to take on this debt of these
outrage with these outrageous

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conditions.
Yeah, we we don't have the

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technology to develop some of
these resources.

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We need your help US or now
China and other parts of the

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world.
We need we need your industry.

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We we need your technological
know how.

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But these are our resources and,
and so we expect you to help us

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develop value, add it.
We don't want to just produce

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barrels of oil that you ship out
and send to your refineries.

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We want refineries here.
And beyond that, we want plastic

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companies.
We want the companies that use

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the oil to do things other than
just power cars.

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We, we, we want industry here.
We, we, we demand that we're not

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going to continue this process,
but really that that's going to

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take a, a united effort on the
part of many of these countries.

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And in both Africa and Latin
America, they'll tell you, you

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know, they have this long
history of division.

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It's, it's, and it's a lot of it
was imposed it, it's a result

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of, of colonialism by the
Portuguese and the Spaniards in

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Latin America and now the
Americans and by the Dutch and

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the, and the British and the
French and others in, in, in

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Africa.
So I have this history of

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division.
It makes it hard to do this, but

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I like to look back to the US
history.

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There was a lot of divisiveness
between the 13 colonies back in

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the 1770s.
You know, the, the South had

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very different interests than
the North.

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And within each of the colonies
in the north and each of the

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colonies in the South, they had
different interests from their,

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their neighboring.
There was a lot of divisiveness.

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It took, it took an effort, it
took a big effort.

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It took a tremendous amount of
politicking by people like John

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Adams and, and Benjamin Franklin
and others to pull people

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together.
But they did it.

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So they became united.
And, and I, and I really want to

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encourage Africa and Latin
America to do something similar.

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And it doesn't require all the
countries, but it requires a a

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significant number that have
these resources that the world

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desperately wants.
Sure, sure, sure.

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I mean, and I guess, I guess
just, I guess piggybacking on

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this, on this notion, we,
there's more opportunity now

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than ever to kind of democratize
news and information and

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00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,960
messaging to get across, you
know, especially on different

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platforms that you know, because
like what you, you know, so

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let's say America or China goes
to Africa, America or China or

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both of us go to Africa and say,
Hey, we want, you know, XY and Z

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resources.
And they say, well, we know

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these resources are valuable to
you.

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We insist on, you know, being
dealt to fair hands.

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You know, in this, in this, in
these negotiations.

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They say, well, you know, we
have the money in one hand.

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We have the jackals in the other
hand.

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And they say, well, we have a
microphone, you know, or we

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have, you know, we have, we have
the world, you know, we have the

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voice of, you know, civility
and, and humanity, you know, on

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our on our sides.
And like what you said, I think

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it would require a massive
organized effort of just saying

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we're not being treated fairly
for the whole world to be like,

249
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:26,040
Oh my gosh, they're not being
treated fairly.

250
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,800
And to take a step.
I mean, you know, I mean, that's

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00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,560
you could, you could definitely
make the argument that that

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00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,840
Hamas and Gaza are currently
winning the OR have been winning

253
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:38,360
the PR war for the last two
years relative to Israel, judged

254
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,480
by the fact that the sentiment
overwhelmingly lies with them at

255
00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,480
the moment.
And, you know, I think that if

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00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,440
any, if any country that was
quote, UN quote on the on the

257
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,640
bottom, you know, could manage
to rally some kind of effort and

258
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,400
democratize the information,
make their voices unified, then

259
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,640
you really have a chance of
fighting of fighting.

260
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,520
Oh, absolutely, you're right.
And incidentally, it may be that

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00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,920
Hamas and Palestine, the
Palestinians are winning, but

262
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,840
but in a way, it's, it's
actually Netanyahu and his

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00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,520
administration that's losing the
propaganda war.

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00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:13,120
I mean, shooting themselves in
the foot.

265
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,160
But both, it takes both.
And I think that's a really good

266
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,400
point that I, I emphasize what
needs to be done in in Africa

267
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and Latin America.
But at the same time, the people

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00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,800
of the United States need to be
better educated about this.

269
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,760
So we, we have the sense, you
know, like I people will tell

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00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,920
me, well, why are they
demonstrating against embassy

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00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:36,040
in, in Ecuador or wherever?
We're just there to help them.

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00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,760
Well, that embassy is not there
to help the people of Ecuador or

273
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:41,440
any other country for the most
part.

274
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,240
That may, that may not be true.
Maybe they are there to help

275
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,080
countries to some degree in
Europe.

276
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,520
But really that embassy is there
to serve the interests of

277
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:51,760
American corporations for the
most part.

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00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,680
And American foreign policy,
which right now and for quite

279
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,960
some time has been very
expansionistic.

280
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,720
It's either, it's the most
expansionist now, I think

281
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,200
despite the fact that Trump came
into the presidency saying he,

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00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,040
you know, he, he didn't want to
get involved in these things,

283
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,680
but that's been our history of
getting involved in these things

284
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,600
and, and expanding and
expanding.

285
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,000
And so, but Americans don't
understand that we truly think,

286
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,800
I believe that a majority of
Americans truly believe that

287
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,760
what we're doing in these other
countries is helping them.

288
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,880
And maybe to their detriment
that oh, you, you can't help

289
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:29,320
them.
Well, it's true that we

290
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,520
shouldn't be helping them in
ways that exploit them.

291
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,680
But we can offer services,
technology and, and, and money

292
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,160
to help, but only if it truly is
used to develop.

293
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,120
Yeah.
And to develop these countries,

294
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,880
to develop the businesses in
these countries, help employment

295
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,560
in these countries.
We talk about the immigration

296
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,880
problem.
The immigration problem is a

297
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,760
problem because we've created
economies in Central America

298
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,240
that are just exploited by our
corporations.

299
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:07,200
NAFTA, the Central American Free
Trade Agreement, and I mean the

300
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,319
North American Free Trade
Agreement and Kafka, the Central

301
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:14,839
American are are totally biased
to helping out big corporations

302
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:19,240
and in the process making it
very, very difficult for the

303
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,880
average person in in much of
Central America to make a

304
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,240
living.
So they emigrate.

305
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,120
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I wonder So what I I, I can

306
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:33,440
vouch for both myself
anecdotally and with really

307
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:38,000
almost everyone that I know it.
I know only a handful of people

308
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,200
that know much about any other
part of the world other than

309
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,720
America that grew up here.
And even then, you know, what

310
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,120
they know is, is severely
limited.

311
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,640
And, you know, so actually I do
want to dedicate probably, you

312
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,960
know, a chunk of this recording
to talking a little bit about

313
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,160
other countries, especially from
your experience.

314
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:55,760
I think that that'd be extremely
valuable.

315
00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:02,680
One thing I wanted to ask for
you to please elaborate on a

316
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,440
little bit was the notion of a
corporatocracy that you've

317
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,480
discussed.
Because I think that the way

318
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,760
that you, the way that you
expressed it in the book, at

319
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,200
least had put it into such plain
and digestible terms.

320
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:24,560
And a notion that primarily has
been kind of put, put aside for

321
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,560
the kooks, you know, for the
conspiracy theorists.

322
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,920
And, you know, you walk around
with terms like a deep state or

323
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,520
whatever it is.
But but there is, but, you know,

324
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,120
there is this notion of a
corporatocracy.

325
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:35,240
Can you explain what that is
please?

326
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,720
Yeah, well, my, what what I've
written about is the

327
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,720
corporatocracy is not really a
conspiracy theory as such.

328
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,760
So that's sort of overarching
agreement with the Bildenberger

329
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,320
whenever they get together to be
in dark corners and, you know,

330
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,600
to to plot things.
But the conspiracy, if you want

331
00:18:54,600 --> 00:19:00,560
to call it that is, is a a
philosophy that is part of what

332
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,600
I call predatory capitalism,
which is the kind of capitalism

333
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,120
that rules the world right now.
And that philosophy is that you

334
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:10,560
maximize short term profits
regardless of the social and

335
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,760
environmental cost that drives
these corporations.

336
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,680
And it pretty much drives our
governments that to set up

337
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,920
policies that help us maximize
materialistic consumption and

338
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,840
short term profits for
corporations.

339
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,240
Now, corporations need to make
profits.

340
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,440
All businesses do.
But they don't need to maximize

341
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,440
them to the extent that they
just basically disregard the

342
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,880
future, right?
You know, and the idea of

343
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,200
maximizing profits regardless of
the social and environmental

344
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,000
costs is ridiculous when you
think about it.

345
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,840
And yet that's the driving
force.

346
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:48,840
So let's say you take the oil
companies and you may have Exxon

347
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,040
and Chevron and Shell are all
competing for you at the gas

348
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,840
pump.
They're all advertising our oils

349
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,840
better than their oil, you know,
saying, but that's what they're

350
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,440
doing.
But but if, if, if, if any

351
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,800
country in the United States or
any of the countries where they

352
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,600
have oil wells begins to look
like they're going to institute

353
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,720
policies that in some way are
going to negatively impact the

354
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,760
oil company, the oil companies,
they all basically.

355
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,840
They don't have to come together
in a dark room and agree to do

356
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:18,840
this.
They don't even have to meet

357
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,560
with each other.
They just automatically know

358
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,200
we're all going to fight to get
rid of this policy, to keep this

359
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,000
policy down.
We're all, we're going to spend

360
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,480
a lot of money on, on, you know,
we at Shell are going to hire

361
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,720
our lawyers and, and you at
Texaco or Chevron are going to

362
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,160
hire your lawyers.
And we're, you know, we're all

363
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,480
going to fight this, this, this
policy and that goes through

364
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,960
all, all the various industries,
whether it's retail or food

365
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:49,240
production or, or chemicals or
pharmaceuticals.

366
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,960
So, so that's this
corporatocracy.

367
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,840
But on top of that, you've got
the fact that most of our

368
00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:01,080
government officials come out of
the corporate world or plan on

369
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,400
going into it when they leave
the government.

370
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,760
Yeah, yeah.
The revolving door.

371
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,840
And that's a form of corruption
that's been legalized.

372
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,680
It's so it's, it's not
corruption legally speaking, but

373
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,720
it is corruption on, you know,
from any standpoint.

374
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,000
And, and of course, these last
few years, it's gotten a lot

375
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,720
worse over these last few, few
months.

376
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,040
I mean to say it's gotten a lot
worse the the Trump

377
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,720
administration is blatant about
it, which may be a good thing

378
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,640
because it's bringing to the
surface the fact that the

379
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:43,360
presidents and other politicians
use their positions to enhance

380
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:46,680
their own personal wealth and
that of their friends and

381
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,560
cronies.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

382
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,720
It's been.
I don't know whether this is

383
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,320
just the media that I've been
consuming lately or whether or

384
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,960
not this is the zeitgeist, but
it certainly feels as if it's

385
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,840
been a lot more blatant.
You know, the transfer of

386
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,920
wealth, prestige and power is
like unfolding in front of

387
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,640
people's eyes And it almost and,
and then at the same time, life

388
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,760
becomes a lot more, a lot more
difficult for the middle lower,

389
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,160
you know, economic class of, of,
of individuals.

390
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,320
And there's just nothing like
you could just it's a good

391
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,920
silent groan, you know, like
there's, there's not really much

392
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,720
that's happening other than
everyone just kind of throwing

393
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,920
up their hands and being like,
well, I guess, you know, I guess

394
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,840
this is life now.
I guess, you know, I guess I,

395
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,800
you know, there's not there's
really, it doesn't feel like

396
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,520
there's necessarily a way out.
Do do you have any kind of, you

397
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,200
know, hope or what kind of
positive other than, I guess

398
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,000
messages, messaging, other than
the speaking and the coming

399
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,040
together that we were talking
about, you know, is there

400
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,280
anything else that could happen?
Yeah.

401
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,160
Well, I think yeah, first of
all, yeah, it's, it's definitely

402
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,160
gotten worse.
So.

403
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,160
So I actually think we have
developed the, the conspiracy

404
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,080
theories in a way coming true.
It's it's self realization.

405
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,600
I think we have in the last
months we've been moving beyond

406
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:13,600
the kind of corporatocracy that
I talked about and we've been

407
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,480
moving much more into an overt
one, an oligarchy.

408
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,840
And that's not just true in the
United States, it's it's been

409
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,320
happening in many, many other
countries, Argentina among so

410
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,240
many countries, Italy, countries
in Europe.

411
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,800
You know, we're moving in this
direction increasingly.

412
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,600
And and I think that the message
here is it's these terrible

413
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,560
mistakes that we've all made in
the past.

414
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,280
Those those in power, those are
not even necessarily in power.

415
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,520
I don't consider myself to be in
power, but I'm part of, you

416
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,840
know, this white American
privileged class.

417
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,520
And we've kind of sat back and
watched, you know, the Democrats

418
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,760
have not done a good job at
dealing with what's going on.

419
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,960
And I'm not, you know, I'm not
just coming down on the Trump

420
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,840
administration.
I think the Trump administration

421
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,320
is stirring the pot and that
that's probably a good thing.

422
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,040
It needs, it needed to be
stirred.

423
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,800
The question is, can can we?
Can we cool down the pot before

424
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,560
it boils over?
Yeah.

425
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,600
That's the big question.
Can we truly save democracy?

426
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,160
Because I think I'm a, I'm a
very strong believer in

427
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,920
democracy and we've never really
had it in the United States, but

428
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,640
throughout our 250 year history,
we've been kind of on an upward

429
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,480
trend.
You know, women didn't have the

430
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,480
right to vote until the 19 until
1919, but they did get it.

431
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,640
And and then and then we've
still got tremendous inequality

432
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,800
and and so on.
But I think we were moving in in

433
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,680
the right direction.
And it takes time. 250 years is

434
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,960
not a lot in human history.
But but now it seems as though

435
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,960
we've taken a step back, as have
so many, many other countries

436
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,360
and really deeply concerned
about this.

437
00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:01,120
I was just recently in the
Republic of Georgia, which used

438
00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:05,000
to be part of the Soviet Union.
And they're terrified, you know,

439
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,640
they, they do not want to be
part of the the equivalent of

440
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,240
the Soviet Union again.
And they see what's happening in

441
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,400
Ukraine.
They are expecting that it will

442
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,320
happen to them if it unless it
gets stopped in Ukraine.

443
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,120
And you hear this all over
Europe.

444
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:21,040
It's a tremendous amount of
fear.

445
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,560
We in the United States are very
privileged in that we've got the

446
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,240
Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific
Ocean in Canada and Mexico.

447
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,200
So, yeah, these are not enemies.
I mean, we're, we're, we're,

448
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,080
it's getting close.
Are we?

449
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,240
Are we going to turn Canada and
Mexico into enemies?

450
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,200
That would be a terrible
mistake.

451
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,600
But I don't think we are going.
I don't think that's going to

452
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,960
happen.
And and so we've been so

453
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,520
privileged because most every
other country in the world has

454
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,760
neighbors that at one time or
another, including usually

455
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,840
fairly recently, were their
enemies.

456
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:56,920
So, well, they're very, very
aware of these kinds of threats.

457
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,040
We're not.
We're not.

458
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,200
We're spoiled.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

459
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,560
Well, something's gonna, I mean,
I guess something's gonna you're

460
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,280
spoiled until something wakes
you up in life.

461
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,240
You know, that's usually how it
that's usually how it works.

462
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:11,120
So I'm hoping we can learn, you
know, before we before we get

463
00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:12,920
one of those wake up calls that
we're not, you know, that we're

464
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:18,720
not very happy about.
Speaking of Ukraine, there was a

465
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,640
whole, and again, it wasn't a
huge, huge deal on the news, but

466
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,480
it was kind of a couple of
months back that Trump was

467
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,920
trying to push Zelensky towards
a mineral deal.

468
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,400
You know, is that the would that
be the equivalent of, you know,

469
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,200
extract, extracting this pound
of flesh that like, hey, we just

470
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,640
propped you guys up for X amount
of years and gave you X amount

471
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,440
of billions of dollars.
And now we're expected to.

472
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,360
Now you're expected to work with
us, whether you like it or not.

473
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,480
Yeah.
We didn't give them that money.

474
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,320
We, we, we, we've, it's, it's,
there's a lot of it is loans.

475
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,520
Some of it has been granted.
Oh, I see.

476
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,040
Most of it is loans and let's
remember that most of that money

477
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,120
or great a large share of it
that came back to us for them to

478
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:02,240
buy military equipment from us
and, and, and, and other

479
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,520
supplies from us.
So, yeah.

480
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,920
And, and why are we in Ukraine?
So that the people of Republic

481
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,320
of Georgia would say we, we went
through the same thing you, you.

482
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:19,600
So the I mean Russia annexed the
large parts of of of the

483
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:25,280
Republic of Georgia recently and
the world didn't react at all.

484
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,720
When was that?
It was what, 2000?

485
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,520
Shit, I just came from there,
you know, 2007, 2000.

486
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,240
Within the last 20 years.
Yeah, yeah, Oh, yeah.

487
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,120
There's I, I've met with a lot
of people who were told you've

488
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:44,120
got 48 hour, told by the
Russians you've got 48 hours to

489
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,440
get out of your house and and
move 350 miles away.

490
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,360
We now have taken over the
section, but who knows about

491
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,400
that?
I, I didn't really, I knew, I

492
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,800
knew about it, but I didn't
really know about it until I get

493
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,640
there and talk to these people.
And so they say, well, why

494
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,160
doesn't the world know about it?
Why Ukraine?

495
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,840
Why not us too?
We, we, we want to support

496
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,760
Ukraine, but what about us?
And the answer is they don't

497
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,040
have the resources.
Ukraine has these amazing

498
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,240
resources that, that are
available to including it's,

499
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,080
it's known as the bread basket
of Europe, huge, huge

500
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,840
agricultural production.
So that's why.

501
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,440
And it's about these resources.
It isn't about just human

502
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,520
decency from a here's.
The thing as a from a from.

503
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,400
A human standpoint, yes, you and
I and many other people were

504
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,240
very sympathetic to the
Ukrainians or the Palestinians

505
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,200
or whoever.
So there's that human aspect.

506
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,680
But from a governmental policy
standpoint, it's all about

507
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,280
resources.
It's all about superpower

508
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,760
status, and usually that also
means it's about personal

509
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:03,000
ambition of of heads of state
like President Xi of of China

510
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,880
and President Trump of the
United States, or any president

511
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,360
of the United States for that
matter.

512
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:14,440
Yeah, I've heard before that the
issue with organizations like

513
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,600
governments or corporations that
they act like sociopaths in the

514
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,920
way that they're kind of treated
like people, but they're never

515
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,960
responsible for actions.
They don't feel, you know, when

516
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:25,560
they hurt someone or when they
do anything.

517
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,280
There's no sense of remorse or
guilt or any kind of morality to

518
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,760
kind of hold anyone back.
And everyone kind of just points

519
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,040
at the other person or looks up,
you know, rather than and, you

520
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,360
know.
And so I mean, I guess that

521
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,240
would be the purpose of having
generally speaking, democracy is

522
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,320
to say is for the for the humans
to say, whoa, like the humanity

523
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,160
in this situation has gone way
down, you know, and and the way

524
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,720
that you're the way the
government, which we don't even

525
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,640
expect to behave like a human
because they're not humans.

526
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,160
It's just a machine that's like,
you know, almost like moving on

527
00:29:55,160 --> 00:30:00,280
its own accord, you know, the
way, you know, we have to we are

528
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,320
going to re navigate.
We're going to take the debt,

529
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,160
we're going to take the steering
wheel and we're going to, you

530
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,960
know, realign what the values
and the way they were behaving

531
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,960
are, you know, is I guess are
I'm not sure which one you put

532
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,400
there, but I guess, I guess
ideally that's what democracy

533
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,400
would be about, right?
Yeah, it's, it's an unfortunate

534
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:24,760
fact of history, I think that
systems have been created that

535
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,040
that do encourage nationalistic
sociopaths to rise to the top,

536
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,800
whether it's in government or
business.

537
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:33,720
Sure.
It looks big business.

538
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,320
It's that's just there like, who
wants that?

539
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,880
Who wants those jobs except
somebody who's narcissistic and

540
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,240
sociopathic.
I don't want one of those jobs

541
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,880
really.
You know, it's tough.

542
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,800
And I wouldn't say that
everybody that has those jobs is

543
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,200
that way.
And there's certainly varying

544
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,440
degrees.
Some are more so than others,

545
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:58,640
but it's a system that we've
created that does that.

546
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,880
That's not human nature in my
opinion.

547
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,160
And as you know, I spend a lot
of time with indigenous people

548
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,720
in the Amazon and elsewhere in
the Himalayas and, and, and so

549
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,440
on and so forth.
And if you really look, if you

550
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,440
look at indigenous cultures
throughout history and let's

551
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,120
face it, we've, we've all have,
we all come out of indigenous

552
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,120
cultures.
It's in our DNA to want

553
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,240
something better, to realize
that as the indigenous people in

554
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,160
the Amazon that I, I continue to
spend a lot of time with,

555
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,600
understand if anybody in the
community is suffering

556
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,280
needlessly, then everybody is
suffering.

557
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,960
So somebody may have a broken
leg and they may suffer

558
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,560
something, whatever, but if
they're lacking in love or

559
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,840
they're lacking in food or water
or or housing or whatever,

560
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,320
everybody suffers.
You've got to take care of them

561
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,320
and, and when they form
organizations to get together,

562
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,360
for example, right now in the
Amazon, it's a big step to, to,

563
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,120
to oppose, for the indigenous
people to come together to

564
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,840
oppose the oil companies and
the, and the, and the, and the

565
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,440
Chinese big mining operations
that are going in, in cattle

566
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,640
ranch.
And when they do that, they,

567
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,280
they, they have a system where
they elect for every community

568
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,440
elect someone can't serve for
more than two years.

569
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:24,360
And then that person then meets
with the guy in the next in the

570
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,760
other communities of the same
nation.

571
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,920
But we used to go try, but now
at least in many parts, they

572
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,920
recognize as nations.
And then they, and then they

573
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,240
come together to elect 1.
So let's say the Ottawa people

574
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,760
of the Amazon, there's 46
different communities that send

575
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,080
in 40 to 6 different
representatives and they are

576
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,680
like 1 to, to meet with the
representative from the Schwarf

577
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,000
Federation and, and the Kichawa
Federation.

578
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,360
And then they all come together
and it's all just for two years.

579
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,960
So these guys, these people are
elected to really serve the

580
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,320
interests of the community.
It's a bottom up approach where

581
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,440
we've got this top down approach
where you don't, you know,

582
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,760
what's, you know, the community
I live, live in, what's the

583
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,400
chances that it's really going
to have an impact outside of

584
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,080
this community?
And it's, it's controlled by the

585
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,920
top.
And you don't, you know, you

586
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,800
don't get to the top, you don't
get to be president of the

587
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,720
United States unless you've got
a huge support system behind you

588
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,440
and a lot of money behind you.
And the system is rigged for

589
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:31,920
that way.
And it's rigged.

590
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,040
You know, it's become
increasingly rigged that way

591
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,760
with Citizens United and in
recent Supreme Court, the

592
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,040
decisions that really favour big
corporations and favour the

593
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,000
power of the executive branch of
government.

594
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,920
I'm going to let you decide
which way, which path you want

595
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,480
to go down.
Do you want to talk a little bit

596
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,680
about China or do you want to
talk a little bit more about the

597
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,440
South and Central American
tribes and a little bit more of,

598
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,840
you know, the I want to, I want
to go a little bit more into the

599
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,160
other types of books that you've
written and other types of work

600
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,920
and philosophy and meditation
and practices.

601
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,840
Which which path would you like
to meander down?

602
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,360
Well, I think they're connected.
So let's let's try this one.

603
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:18,639
The two biggest countries, the
two most powerful countries in

604
00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:23,840
the world, China and the United
States, contribute almost 50% of

605
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,000
the world's economy, something
between 40 and 50% and also

606
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,679
between 40 and 50% of the
world's pollution.

607
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,520
And what we've really done is
created a, what economists are

608
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,239
calling a death economy, an
economic system that's that's

609
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,280
killing itself, that's polluting
and consuming itself toward

610
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,800
extinction.
And it is based on this one goal

611
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,239
of maximizing materialistic
consumption and short term

612
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,280
profits for corporations.
Can I?

613
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,040
Ask real quickly, I'm so sorry,
just to, but real quickly, China

614
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,080
doesn't operate on that same
time as time scale and corporate

615
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,160
interests as America do, do
they?

616
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:02,720
Certainly not the same.
No, they don't.

617
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:05,080
And neither one of those in the
time scale they're much, they

618
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,160
look to the long term much more.
But it's still considered a

619
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,920
death economy in that sense.
Yeah.

620
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,800
Because what they're, they're,
they're, they're, they're still

621
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:20,280
looking at making huge profits,
maximizing profits regardless of

622
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,120
social and environmental costs.
And then the maximization of

623
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,400
profits may include a little bit
longer term.

624
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,120
So it may not be quite as
maximized.

625
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:28,360
Right.
Right.

626
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,320
Yeah.
And it's still looking at

627
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,080
controlling the resources of the
world, you know, and a major

628
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,000
difference is that many of the
big corporations in China are

629
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,000
51% or more owned by the Chinese
government.

630
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,440
So they don't really have to tax
their corporations because they

631
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,040
profit from them.
You know, you're already getting

632
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,800
51%.
You know, it's a hell of a lot

633
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,200
more of our corporations.
So it's it's actually a very

634
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,480
smart system and their economic
hit band are just doing a bang

635
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,600
up job.
I mean, they're they're smart.

636
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,320
I think you know this.
This map tells.

637
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,560
You about please?
Yes.

638
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,880
Can you explain the top in the
bottom?

639
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,840
So the top, the top is like in
the year 2001, the United States

640
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,880
was the number one trading
partner in 80% of the world's

641
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,560
countries.
By 2023, China had taken over

642
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,040
70% of the world's countries.
Crazy.

643
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,280
And, and since 2023, it's gotten
more so.

644
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,800
So, you know, China's economic
hitman.

645
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,280
Well, first of all, they have a
great story to tell, and that is

646
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,040
that they brought over 800
million people out of dire

647
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,240
poverty.
That's huge and more than twice

648
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:42,880
the population of the United
States.

649
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:48,360
And they have, they had economic
growth of around 10% a year for

650
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,600
30 years.
Nobody else has ever done that.

651
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,640
So if you're the president of a
country in in Africa or Latin

652
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,200
America or, or other parts of
the world that you want to

653
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,360
develop your economy, you look
at that as a pretty successful

654
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,120
model.
You may not like the Chinese

655
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,120
government, you may not like the
way they run, but you think that

656
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,480
that economic system looks
pretty damn good compared to the

657
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:15,000
US system where we put our our
federal minimum wage today is

658
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:21,600
lower when adjusted for
inflation than it was in 1973.

659
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,680
Wow.
And that's crazy.

660
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,520
Yeah.
And, and, and some country

661
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,480
president of the country looks
at this stuff, you know, and

662
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,560
also there's a tremendous
resentment of the United States.

663
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:37,560
If you're a Muslim country, you
really resent the fact that the

664
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:42,240
United States went into Iraq and
Afghanistan and is, is, is

665
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:44,600
supporting Israel against the
Palestinians.

666
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,120
This history and, and, and, and
so many country we have, we've

667
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,000
have military bases in over 100
countries.

668
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,120
China has them in one, maybe 2.
And they're not really very

669
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,440
strong military bases.
They're supply bases.

670
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,280
People don't like to be occupied
by a foreign power.

671
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,320
We didn't in the United States
back in the 1700s when the

672
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,200
British were here.
We always went to war over Cuba.

673
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:10,920
Yeah, yeah.
You know.

674
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:15,160
Yeah, and, and, and now
Venezuela, you know, we, we, we

675
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,080
want to control the policy.
I hate, you know, Maduro.

676
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,080
I'd, I'd like to see him go, but
that's another story.

677
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,480
Anyway, so, but the thing about
China and the United States both

678
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:31,240
is we're is we're competing is
to expand the death economy.

679
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,120
And the the challenge today is
to get these two countries that

680
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,280
have so much influence in power
politically, economically,

681
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,960
militarily, to work to create a
life economy and a life economy.

682
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:47,760
This gets back to the other side
of the story here.

683
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,480
The indigenous people have had
life economies.

684
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,840
We're up to 200,000 plus years.
We've conceived ourselves as

685
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,400
human beings.
We've we've lived most of that

686
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,880
time in life economies.
It's only been within the last

687
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,040
several thousand years and it's
gotten worse in the last few

688
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,760
decades that we've had this
death economy.

689
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,080
And so the life economy, you
know, is a recyclable economy.

690
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,000
It's a circular economy.
It recycles it, it, it, it

691
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,040
circulates and it doesn't
destroy resources.

692
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:22,080
It helps to replenish resources.
So as a practical case, we, we

693
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,640
pay people to clean up all the
plastic that's floating around

694
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,160
in the oceans and recycle it to
replant devastated environments,

695
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,200
devastated forests, to, to, to
restore all of devastated

696
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,720
environments, to recycle, to
create new technologies.

697
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:40,400
You know, we, we've been on that
path.

698
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,360
Solar, wind, electric cars is
taking us in the right

699
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,880
direction, but we need to go a
lot further, a lot faster.

700
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,320
And so the, the life economy is
not about, you know, living,

701
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:57,360
going back and living in caves
or having lousy lives.

702
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:02,400
It's about paying ourselves and
each other to do things that

703
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,400
make the.
Future of the world, a better

704
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,480
place to make the world a better
place for us, our children, our

705
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,360
grandchildren, our great
grandchildren.

706
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,960
And it's exciting, you know, I,
I think this is an incredibly

707
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,960
exciting time.
That's why I say we're stirring

708
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,720
the pot And I, I'm hoping that
out of this pot, you know, comes

709
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:27,680
an amazing Stew of life economy.
I would, I would, I would love

710
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,160
that.
Can you so tell me some stories,

711
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,400
perhaps if you, if you don't
mind, of some of your

712
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,160
experiences in South America or
Central America and about the

713
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,120
cultures?
Because again, one of the things

714
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,280
when, you know, I emailed you
when I reached out, one of the

715
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,000
things that I said, aside from
how much I loved your book was

716
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,720
I've been so I've been learning
more about different parts of

717
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:50,280
the world.
I never dreamt, you know, I, I

718
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,040
could never, I could never even
imagine existed, you know, and

719
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,640
you started bringing a lot of
life to a lot of these South and

720
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,440
South and Central American
countries.

721
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,760
So do you want to just tell me
some, you know, some of your

722
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,160
favorite aspects of these
countries or which countries in

723
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,920
particular are, you know, speak
to you or resonate with you?

724
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,200
Yeah, well, yeah, there's a lot
that speak to resonate with me.

725
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,120
I'm particularly enthralled by
the Amazonian people who live so

726
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:21,480
close to nature and, and really
is believe that they are a part

727
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,600
of nature, not a part from it.
And, and that's the biggest

728
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,640
thing.
And, and I don't idealize these

729
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,120
people.
There are murderers amongst

730
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:29,400
them.
They're crazy people.

731
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,040
There are wife beaters.
You know, there's good and bad

732
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:33,800
people.
They're people, but they have a

733
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,000
philosophy of life that they
live as part of the economy, as

734
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,520
part of the part of the natural
world, part part of part of the

735
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,440
world.
Whereas we have a philosophy

736
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,840
that we are a part from the
world, that we have a superior

737
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,640
over it.
And that's, that's the basis of

738
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,840
our, of our problems.
And so I, I take people on trips

739
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,120
of the people who've read my
books on, on indigenous cultures

740
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,320
often to, to learn from the
indigenous people.

741
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,320
It's one of the aspects that
they are most impressed with is

742
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,920
how much these people live
within the system as part of it.

743
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,400
They're not destroying it.
They are trying to keep others

744
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:14,880
from destroying it.
They're trying to keep us from

745
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,240
destroying it, but they've
they've always, always lived as

746
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:20,680
part of it.
And as I said, we all have that

747
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,320
in our DNA.
Do they, do they have multiple

748
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,840
religions or one religion or
what's their, how do they,

749
00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:33,640
what's this version of, I guess
of, of national storytelling or,

750
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,160
you know, philosophical compass,
you know, what's their compass?

751
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,120
Yeah, I don't think you can
generalize and there's there's

752
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,440
many different.
There's a bunch of them.

753
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,680
Yeah, but but if you were to, to
generalize, you'd say, you know,

754
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:54,200
they, they believe that
everything has spirit and soul

755
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:57,440
trees and the animals and the
rocks and the rivers.

756
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,880
So they, they honor that and
most of them believe in some

757
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,920
bigger force that we would call
God or different.

758
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,640
There's different words for it.
And most of them believe in

759
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,160
that, that, that beyond all of
this is that.

760
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,520
And they believe for the most
part, and again, I'm

761
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:19,000
generalizing here that, you
know, life, the soul never ends,

762
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,440
that the body dies, but we, that
we transform often into trees or

763
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,760
plants.
They, many of them believe that,

764
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,880
you know, being human is one of
the toughest aspects that you

765
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,800
don't want to come back as a
human being.

766
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,320
The humans, we're here as humans
to learn about the difficulties

767
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,960
that humans have such power.
So we're here to learn how to

768
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,600
use that, that power over the
rest of nature to, to continue

769
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,440
to, to, to support nature, to
continue to be part of nature.

770
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,400
And we're, and right now we're
in this incredibly difficult,

771
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,480
chaotic, but important time of
really understanding that we

772
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:03,000
need to evolve into a better
understanding of what it means

773
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,720
to be human beings, being human
on this planet.

774
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,760
And they understand that.
And again, I don't idealize them

775
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,120
as individuals, but as a
philosophy of life to really

776
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,680
understand this.
And again, we all come from

777
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,960
that.
But I love that about the

778
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,840
indigenous people and the Amazon
and, but I, but I also the Mayan

779
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:30,080
people of, of Central America
are, are incredible because they

780
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:34,040
know that they went through
something around the year 900 in

781
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,680
our calendar, like what we're
going through today.

782
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,520
They have these huge pyramids,
you know, amazing, amazing

783
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,240
pyramids that just phenomenal.
They built these.

784
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,960
They don't get any attention
relative to Egypt, right?

785
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,560
Very little attention.
To Egypt, yeah.

786
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,960
And to me they're much more
impressive than the Egyptian

787
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:52,960
pyramids.
I've spent time in both because

788
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,280
there's 2 views that the shamans
still use them in their

789
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,520
ceremonies, that they're,
they're, they're, they're a

790
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,720
living part of these people's
lives, but they don't build them

791
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:05,520
anymore.
And so between the years 800 and

792
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:11,920
900 in our calendar, they had
drained the swamps and cut the

793
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,560
forest in order to build these
vast, spectacular cities.

794
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,680
And there were dozens and dozens
of these huge cities.

795
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,480
Some are just now being
discovered by Lidar

796
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,040
technologies.
And, and as they built these

797
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,720
cities, they changed their
environment like we're doing.

798
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,840
The rain stopped and, and the
food dried up.

799
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,240
And so the cities began to go to
war with each other, which

800
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:42,800
they'd always been peaceful
before over scarce resources.

801
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,960
And then eventually the people
who lived outside the cities but

802
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,960
supported the city.
So you only have the royalty

803
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,120
living in the cities and their
administrators and their

804
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,040
religious people, you know, the
upper class, the people lived

805
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,280
outside and supported the
cities, gave them, you know,

806
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,720
provided the food and everything
else just said I, we don't want

807
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:03,240
to kill our neighbors anymore.
We're leaving.

808
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:05,680
And they went up into the
mountains or deeper into the

809
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,320
jungle.
They abandoned the cities.

810
00:46:07,720 --> 00:46:10,800
The cities were grown over by
nature took over, which is a

811
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,520
wonderful aspect.
And for hundreds of years,

812
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,480
nobody knew these pyramids were
there.

813
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,080
Maybe some of the Mayans knew,
but nobody from the outside

814
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,760
world knew until the the 1800s
when they were rediscovered and

815
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,400
started to be excavated.
But so today the Mayan people

816
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,360
who who left and they, they kept
their traditions.

817
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,760
They were built their calendars,
their incredible calendars and

818
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,800
their readings of the calendars
and their prophecies and their

819
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,240
fire ceremonies and their and
their respect for nature.

820
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,000
And they live very simply.
They didn't they.

821
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,800
So they kept those things, but
they didn't continue to build

822
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,600
these cities.
They realize that you got to

823
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:54,680
live much more simply and have
really good lives and enjoy your

824
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,120
families and, and, and provide
good food.

825
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,480
So they've got this and now they
want to teach us because they've

826
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,000
seen what happens when you take
this too far.

827
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,560
So which?
Which countries in particular

828
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,880
are these?
Did this happen in?

829
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,280
Did this I just what do you
which country are you talking

830
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,040
about where this happened?
Well, for the Maya, it's, it's,

831
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,360
they were basically what today
we, we, we consider to be

832
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:27,040
Guatemala, Mexico, Honduras,
Salvador and Belize, 5 countries

833
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:31,760
and probably the one that's done
the most to kind of protect

834
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,960
these sites and, and, and
continue to use them is, is,

835
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,600
well, Mexico's done a good job,
but it doesn't allow the shamans

836
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,320
to do their ceremonies.
Guatemala does.

837
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:45,400
And so those two countries,
Mexico and Guatemala and

838
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,880
Guatemala are the ones that have
the most preserved, you know, if

839
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,120
they preserve this and you know,
so I are.

840
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,400
Part of their culture.
What are?

841
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,320
Psychedelics, part of the
culture, they're part of the.

842
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,920
What I didn't?
Are psychedelics part of their

843
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:09,920
culture?
Oh, with some of them, Peyori is

844
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,360
now in the Amazon and that's in
Central America.

845
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,360
And the fire ceremonies, they do
take you into altered states.

846
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,960
I mean, they're amazing.
So it's it's not something you

847
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,960
ingest, but they do use peyote
in some of them.

848
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,360
But many of them don't use
anything except the fire

849
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,200
ceremonies.
Historically, we don't know

850
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,440
exactly what they did, but now
in the Amazon, ayahuasca is a

851
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,320
very important in many of these
cultures.

852
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,320
And you probably know what
ayahuasca is and that's, you

853
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,760
know, very, very strong.
This takes you into altered

854
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,720
states.
I just.

855
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:47,280
I'm still here because I
continue.

856
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,960
OK, so yeah.
And, but you know, it's, it's,

857
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,520
it's very interesting to me that
I was trained as an ayahuasca

858
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,400
shaman back in 1969.
I was a Peace Corps volunteer

859
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,200
living deep in the jungle with
the schwa people.

860
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:08,560
And, and I was dying at one
point and a schwa shaman saved

861
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,000
my life using ayahuasca and then
demanded that I become an

862
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,320
apprentice for a couple of
years.

863
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,080
So I did.
Wow.

864
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:17,920
When was this?
Was this before After your

865
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,200
economic career?
Long before this is right after

866
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,560
I got out of Business School and
I joined the Peace Corps because

867
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:27,560
it was a way to avoid the draft
and I didn't believe in the war

868
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,480
in Vietnam.
So I joined the Peace Corps.

869
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,720
They sent me deep into the
Amazon and I got very sick.

870
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:35,080
At one point I was dying in
ayahuasca.

871
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,240
They saved my life and and I was
trained as an ayahuasca shaman.

872
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:43,480
And you know, I take people
there now who one night we do

873
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,200
it.
They don't have the opportunity

874
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:46,840
to do it.
They don't, Some of them don't.

875
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,400
They don't have to.
But, you know, I am concerned

876
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:54,680
that some of these are being, I
think are being misused or

877
00:49:54,680 --> 00:50:00,600
overused now because typically
indigenous people will take

878
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,600
ayahuasca once just if they
really need it.

879
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,880
And some guy the other day asked
me, he said, you know, what was

880
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,240
the, how many?
He said I took ayahuasca 20

881
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:14,200
times last year.
How many times did you take it

882
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,920
and say, I haven't taken it for
10 years and I'm still working

883
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,360
with that plant.
It's in me and it's working with

884
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,440
me.
And the shamans who serve

885
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,000
ayahuasca do when I was trained
to say you, you take it a lot

886
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,480
more than that.
But the normal people, you

887
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,520
don't.
It's not it's I, I, I'm afraid

888
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,440
in this culture of that we're in
now to some degree with some

889
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,120
people, it's almost become a
social addiction.

890
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,560
People say, well, there's an
ayahuasca ceremony next Saturday

891
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,160
night at so and so's house.
Let's go.

892
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:49,200
And, and that concerns me that
we may be, it's using it like,

893
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,440
like so many things that, you
know, I mean, we, we can say we

894
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:57,200
experience something similar
with antibiotics where we, you

895
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,880
know, being abused.
We certainly have experienced

896
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:03,120
with tobacco tobacco's, another
sacred plant that's used in the

897
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,640
Amazon.
And it's very, very important,

898
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,000
but it's used in a special way
and in ceremonial ways.

899
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,680
We've perverted that in the
United States and and throughout

900
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,520
most of the world by, you know,
producing cigarettes that are

901
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:20,000
terribly harmful.
Because we consume, because we

902
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,360
care about, we just care about
just, you know, you know, trying

903
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:29,520
to fill our insatiable, you
know, hunger for whatever it is,

904
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,000
you know, and.
Yeah.

905
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,240
And if you have a, if you have a
great experience on ayahuasca

906
00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:38,160
tonight, last night, if you had
a great experience and you say,

907
00:51:38,240 --> 00:51:41,960
well, I want to do that again.
Or if you didn't have a good

908
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,560
experience, you say, well, if it
didn't work, but I understand

909
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,920
it, that might have just been
that that particular potion or

910
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,120
whatever, I, I need to try some
more.

911
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,440
Whereas the fact of the matter
is in both times, it probably

912
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,960
did work.
You've just got to understand it

913
00:51:55,960 --> 00:52:00,000
and maybe give it time to work
with you or for you to work with

914
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,160
it and not and and really open
yourself to what the plants

915
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,880
trying to tell you.
When I was dating my wife, we're

916
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,800
married for just about four
years, 4 1/2 four years now.

917
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:14,800
And, and you know, she asked me,
you know, you know, one of the

918
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,360
important conversations prior
to, you know, our getting

919
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,000
married, you know, she was
asking me about whether or not I

920
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,960
consume drugs.
And I told her for honesty.

921
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,880
I was like, you know, I've done
I've done LSD a couple, you

922
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:32,720
know, a couple of times and she
was like, and she couldn't

923
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:36,000
understand me when I and she's
like what's last me did I said

924
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,000
two years ago and she couldn't
understand that like that, like,

925
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,320
you know, in her head, like a
drug was like something that

926
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:42,640
like you want to do all the
time.

927
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:47,160
And I was like, I did that once
and I do not feel the need to

928
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,000
like I will never.
I won't do it again until I feel

929
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:53,680
that calling.
It's not a it's not, it's not

930
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,080
just something I just do or just
take for fun.

931
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,560
I mean, I could be like, I mean,
I happen to be very into like,

932
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:01,800
you know, the counterculture,
Grateful Dead hippie kind of

933
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:05,440
movement, you know, But I think
I'm very happy that I'm watching

934
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,960
it as an observer from the side
100 years later, you know, 870

935
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,920
years later, then, you know,
living in it at the moment, I'm

936
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:13,920
sure I would have had a much
harder time finding a healthy

937
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,240
balance with, you know, again,
the consuming and the and the

938
00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:19,160
magic.
But you know, one of the things

939
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,040
I had to explain, and there's an
enormous amount, I guess of

940
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,120
stigma, reputation around it is
that this isn't addicting.

941
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,800
I'm not like I'm not, I'm not,
I'm not here to at least I'm

942
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,760
trying to be thoughtful or
conscientious about it.

943
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,840
You know, I'm like, this is,
this is part of a journey and

944
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,600
part of an experience.
And I did a breath work class

945
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,120
recently.
I forgot, I keep on forgetting

946
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,920
the name of it, but it takes you
into, I guess, another elevated

947
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,920
state.
And again, I did it to check on,

948
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,080
I felt like I needed to check
under the hood of my, of my head

949
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:48,880
and see where I was in my life.
And I did it.

950
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,320
And my wife keeps on asking me.
She says, you know, there's

951
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:52,760
another class this week, another
class this week.

952
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,240
I'm like, I, I'm not, I'm not
there yet.

953
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,600
You know, I, I checked into the
hood and I'm still working with

954
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:00,240
what?
With, you know, with what the,

955
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,240
with what it's telling me, you
know, but, but you know, I, I,

956
00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:05,920
I, I, what you're saying deeply
resonates with me.

957
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:08,400
Well, good.
Yeah, No, it sounds like you're

958
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:09,960
dealing with it just the right
way.

959
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:13,600
It it is something that can be
very, very important in our

960
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,360
lives, but it can also be
misused.

961
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:21,760
And, and it's got, you've got to
be conscious and mindful of the

962
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:25,080
way that you use it.
And I know I'm going to have to

963
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,120
get off in in about 5 minutes,
but I'd love to do more of this.

964
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,120
I enjoy very much talking to
you.

965
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,560
So I'm sorry I've got to get
off, but I have other

966
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,520
commitments.
Part 2 Another time if you have

967
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:37,600
time but.
I want to leave you with, I

968
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,200
don't want to leave your
listeners with five questions

969
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,120
that we can all ask ourselves.
So this to me is the key to

970
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,800
where we're going.
So if we want to transform the

971
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,840
death economy to a life economy,
we all know that there's certain

972
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:55,280
practical things we can do.
Use less fossil fuels, eat a

973
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,800
more plant based diet.
You know so many things that we

974
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:01,760
can all that we can all do that
we know.

975
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,920
Consuming the way that we do.
Yeah, exactly.

976
00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:08,480
But 5 questions that go beyond
that.

977
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,080
And one, the first question is
what do I most want to do for

978
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:15,840
the rest of my life?
That's so important, so

979
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:17,520
important.
And I would answer that question

980
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,000
by saying I want to write.
I love to write.

981
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:23,560
My day is not complete unless
I've spent an hour or two at

982
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,000
least writing.
But I have a friend who's a

983
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:28,720
who's a Carpenter, the opposite
end of the spectrum.

984
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,440
He says I want to work with my
hands and wood question, how do

985
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,720
I do this in a way that will
help transform the death economy

986
00:55:36,720 --> 00:55:39,320
to a life economy?
So whether you're a plumber, a

987
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:43,120
teacher, a parent, a student
Carpenter, a writer, whatever

988
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,720
you are podcast host, you know,
that's what you want to do.

989
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:49,760
But how are you going to do it
in a way that makes the world a

990
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:51,880
better place?
And as a writer, I'd say I'm

991
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:53,960
going to write about those
things and try to inspire

992
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,720
people.
And my Carpenter friend would

993
00:55:56,720 --> 00:55:59,920
say, well, I'm only going to use
sustainable woods.

994
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,360
And I'm going to plant a tree
for every tree or hire somebody

995
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,960
to plant a tree for every tree
that's cut from my work.

996
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,600
And the question #3 is what's
stopping you?

997
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,840
What voice is telling you, well,
you're not good enough to do

998
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:16,360
that.
You don't have the time to do

999
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,120
that?
You know, that would be it for a

1000
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:19,360
writer.
He might be.

1001
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:22,920
Yeah, like, I know that to be a
successful writer, I've got to

1002
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:24,680
write for at least two hours a
day.

1003
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,560
I don't have time.
And my Carpenter friend might

1004
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:33,840
say, well, my, my clients don't
want to pay the extra price for

1005
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,640
me to plant trees and use
sustainable materials.

1006
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,840
Question 4.
When you really confront that

1007
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,560
blockage, that thing that's
holding you back #3 when you're

1008
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,720
really confronted, when you
don't run away from it, when you

1009
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:51,800
go out and touch it, when you
confront it, how does it change

1010
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,600
your perception?
Because we change reality by

1011
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:59,200
changing our perceptions.
And, and, and I would say, you

1012
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:03,000
know, as a writer, well, I could
stop writing for, I could stop

1013
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,400
watching television for two
hours every night and write or

1014
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:07,920
get up a little early in the
morning, right?

1015
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,160
My Carpenter friend would say,
I'm going to tell my clients

1016
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:15,320
that the extra price is not a
cost, it's an investment in the

1017
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,600
future.
They're investing in the future.

1018
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,640
And the 5th question is what
actions do I take immediately?

1019
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,720
Where do I get started?
What are they going to start

1020
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:26,480
writing about?
And the, I got to start, you

1021
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,640
know, building cabinets using
and telling my clients that

1022
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,640
they're investing in the future.
And I think, you know, if we all

1023
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,480
do that, we can all take
different paths, but we're all

1024
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:37,880
going to head toward
transforming the death economy

1025
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:43,120
to a life economy.
Very exciting to be alive and do

1026
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,040
this.
Yeah, I think the most important

1027
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,320
question that I've I
realization, I think I've one of

1028
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,760
the most important I've ever had
in my life is that I'm the only

1029
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:52,480
thing that's ever holding myself
back from anything.

1030
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:54,680
You know, like.
That.

1031
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,680
That that changed when I
realized that that changed

1032
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,640
everything about the way I live,
about the way I think about the

1033
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,720
way I act, about the way I
exercise and eat and the way I

1034
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,880
conduct business is I'm the only
thing that's getting in the way

1035
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,360
of myself, you know, or not, you
know, I could be my best friend

1036
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,960
or my or my worst enemy, you
know, But just that realization

1037
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,520
that there's no one out there
but you, that's, you know,

1038
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,080
that's putting that, that block
in front of you, you know, I

1039
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:25,400
think was was really important.
John, thank you so much for the

1040
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,080
time, for your incredible,
incredible work.

1041
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,120
Maybe we'll be able to do Part 2
if you have the time, because I

1042
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,080
think this is awesome and I
could, I would love to talk to

1043
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:34,880
you about while I, while we were
talking.

1044
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,720
I have 100 notes that I'm of of
follow up ideas that I have.

1045
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:40,760
But one day, one day I hope I'll
be able to do this again.

1046
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,200
Thank you, this is amazing.
Let's do it again.

1047
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,920
And maybe we want to concentrate
more on the indigenous and the I

1048
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:49,440
and the use of some of the
plants and where the Yeah.

1049
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,440
Can I, I'm sorry real quickly,
real quickly as we close, I'm

1050
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:59,160
sorry, becoming, I guess, a
trained shaman in ayahuasca and

1051
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:01,680
then going off and being an
economic hitman.

1052
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,200
Did you what was the?
Do you have an internal conflict

1053
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,640
the whole time or were you again
ideal like?

1054
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:11,760
That has to be in the next show
that.

1055
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:13,680
Has to be in the next show.
OK, we'll lead off to that

1056
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:14,400
question.
OK.

1057
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:15,960
That's awesome.
Thank you so much, John.

1058
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:17,680
I really appreciate everything.
Take care.

1059
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:18,880
All the best.
Bye.