#132 Kieron Connolly / Publishing / Hollywood History / Art & Artists / Streaming & Theaters

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

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Yep.
Awesome.

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Kieran, welcome.
We're live.

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How are you doing today?
Happy New Year.

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Very.
Well, thank you.

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Happy New Year to you too.
I'm very pleased to to be

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speaking to you Tuesday on New
Year's Day.

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Yeah, that's right.
I appreciate you taking the time

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on a holiday and I'm really
excited to talk to you.

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I found your profile because I
was looking for.

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I love Hollywood and I've been
learning a lot about just

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history in general recently.
And I've been trying to find all

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the niches and fun aspects of
history of the, you know, topics

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that I love.
And so I came across your book

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and it's actually on the way to
me now.

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I haven't had a chance to read
it yet, but but I did get a

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chance to shoot off an e-mail
and see if you wanted to talk

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about it first and a bunch of
other things because it happens

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to be that I'm also a writer.
I got a creative writing

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literature degree in college and
I've been writing short poetry

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for the most part ever since.
And I teach high school English,

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and, you know, and you have a
rare situation where you're on

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both ends of the writing
spectrum, where you're editing

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and you're finding, you know,
good stories and fascinating

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stories.
And then you're a writer

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yourself.
So I'm really excited to talk to

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you about a whole bunch of stuff
today.

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OK, can I ask a question?
Please.

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What What ages do you teach in
high school?

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I rotate on a on a yearly basis.
This year is 9th, 10th and 12th.

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What?
What age is that?

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That would be thirteen.
OK. 1314 is 9th grade, 1415 is

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10th grade, and then 1718 is
12th grade.

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OK, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

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Well, what's your?
What are you curious about?

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I was just wondering if, if you
know, what ages it was.

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And yeah, I mean, we're all
everyone's always interested in

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education because we we, you
know, we've all been through it

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some, some work in it and their
own stories of what was good or

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bad about their schooling.
So.

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I had.
It happens to be that I was very

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lucky to go to very good
schools, but I had a very hard

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time in school.
I had at a very difficult time

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taking tests.
I had a very, I would get very

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overwhelmed and then I would
panic and my, you know, and the

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information that I'd spent hours
and hours studying and taking

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notes on would just fly out of
my brain.

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And, and then I thought I was
dumb until I got to college and

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until, until I got took a
creative writing class as one of

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my professors.
And I learned that a much more

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eloquent and and well spoken
when I have an opportunity to

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put my own words to an idea and
not be boxed into particular

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answers or perspectives.
Yeah, which kind of fits the

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rest of my life.
It's great that you had that

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experience as sort of to see,
you know, to find your way.

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Yeah, yeah.
And it helps me a lot as far as

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connecting with my students
because I try very much to make

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it as relatable.
And, you know, I mean, the

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classes are relatively small.
They're between 10 and 15 kids

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apiece, which is a really good
size.

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It gives me a good amount of
time to be able to focus on each

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kid a good amount.
But yeah, I understand.

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I like the, I know the feeling
of not being able to sit behind

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your desk for, you know, 45
minutes or starting a class at

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5:45 PM and, you know, and
realizing that you got another

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45 minutes of your day to go and
you're 17 and you, all you want

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to do is play basketball.
So, you know, I, I, I, I relate

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pretty strongly to that.
Can you want to tell me a little

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bit about, about yourself and
your career?

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And I want to kind of dive into
some of some of the work that

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you've done and hear some of
your thoughts.

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Yeah.
So I've worked across

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publishing, publishing and
journalism for many years now,

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maybe 20 odd years now.
And you know, we're speaking

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today because I wrote a book
called The History.

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It's got various titles over the
years, but more recently it's

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been called The History of
Hollywood once it's called Dark

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History of Hollywood.
And this is a book was published

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by a publisher I, I worked for
in house at the time as an

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editor in the UK called Amber
Books.

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But cinema had always been a
great interest of mine from from

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being a child.
And I did go to the National

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Film and Television School in
England and I did a screen

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writing course and my interest
at that point was becoming a

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screenwriter.
But also I was always interested

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in, in generally in how the
industry worked.

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And my father was in the
industry a bit as a screenwriter

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himself.
So I, I met people over the

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years who worked in the
industry.

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I went on film sets.
I went into cutting rooms when I

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was a student.
I introduced some people, my

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first degrees in history.
I introduced some people about

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the process of making a film.
I introduced a, you know, a

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producer, a writer, a director,
a designer, an editor, a

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cinematographer, A composer.
And what a, you know, I hadn't

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to get them to tell me their
stories of how it how it works

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from their point of view.
So not just doing their

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celebrity interviews, which is
usually an actual director, but

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actually taking different people
involved in putting, putting,

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putting on the show.
And when the opportunity came to

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write this book for the
publisher, you know, I put my

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hand up and I was very pleased
to get the Commission to write

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it.
And it was a very intensive, but

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very happy summer writing the
book.

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And I would have spent many,
many, many months and years

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writing it, but that wasn't the
way it was going to work.

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There was a there was a
deadline.

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To me, the deadlines are quite
exciting and it's nice to, to

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reach to, to step up to that
challenge.

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And although I already knew a
bit about Hollywood, I learned a

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great, great deal more, mainly
sitting in the British Library

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reading other books on the
subject.

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Right.
And I'm so curious, even just

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from that little introduction,
what have you found as you spoke

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to different people?
Because you know, one thing that

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I did I'm doing is I'm focusing
on similar to what you did.

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I'm interviewing stunt double S
I'm interviewing music

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supervisors.
I'm I'm, I'm trying to interview

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writers and editors.
I interviewed the gentleman that

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produced the Taken series, which
was a lot of fun.

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And excuse me.
And I'm also trying to kind of

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get a feel for for this.
And, you know, reading about the

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history of Hollywood, you know,
Hollywood's kind of gone through

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different waves of power that
you know, or creative power.

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And you know, and, and, and to
kind of see even today the

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remnants of, let's say, the
director, the directing

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generation, you know, like how
much power and their prestige

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and reputation is, you know,
whether it's.

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Like the generation from the
late 60s to the early 80s,

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right?
Yeah, sixties, 70s till today,

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even the Spielberg's and you
know, and the modern school

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Stasies and all those gentlemen
that that pretty much can have

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an, you know, open check to any
studio they want to make any

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idea that they want.
And, and it's cool kind of to

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see how that how that works and
how the dynamics of Hollywood

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have changed over the years.
So what have you found when you

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started or what are some things
that surprised you or didn't

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surprise you when you started
interviewing people?

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So I didn't interview people for
for this book in particular.

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There wasn't really the the time
or the budget to do that.

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I interviewed people.
I've interviewed people over the

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years for other projects or just
wrote to people.

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Yeah, I'm trying to think of one
particular thing.

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I'm not sure I can settle the
111 sort of particular gem

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there.
I think what, what what struck

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me when I was researching the
book, which I didn't really know

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about before, was the sort of
the level of corruption in

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Hollywood in the 40s forties,
how the unions were corrupted by

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the mob.
That was something that I hadn't

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known about it.
It's in all the books.

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I just hadn't read it before.
That was an interesting area in

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terms of you're talking about
the director's generation.

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You know, I think it's, it's
interesting the way that the

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power shifts over the over the
decades.

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And I think those directors were
now would say how difficult it

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it is to get certain projects
made and easy to get other

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projects made and how the
studios are producing far fewer

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films.
And they're producing, you know,

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a lot of like Marvel type
superhero things and a few quite

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low budget films.
And like the mid budget movie is

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very hard to get financed now.
And I think about someone like

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Robert Redford, who died last
year in 2025, made in 198586 and

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85, I think out of Africa with
Sydney Pollock.

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And you're kind of oh, would
they make that movie today that,

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you know, with two big film
stars and expensive film in

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filming in Kenya or whatever.
I'm not sure they would finance

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that film today, or at least not
at that level.

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It would be a kind of a much
smaller production the way the

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way sorry I'd.
Probably go to streaming I

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imagine.
And it might be ATV series, it

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might it might be TV series on
streaming yeah.

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So how things how things change
and the different, you know,

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while Hollywood may make fewer
say with grown up films, there

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are there are other avenues now
there are other outlets.

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Yeah, definitely.
I'd say that film has become,

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has definitely become more
democratized over the years,

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especially with the technology
that's been available to

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everyone.
I'm showing my high school

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students now the movie Dead
Poets Society, and they are it's

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I had to give them.
Come out when I was about their

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age, right?
I was with 17.

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There you go.
And and I mean, it's actually

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funny that you say that because
last year I showed them the

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Blind side.
They said, what movie?

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What year did this come out?
I said 2008.

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They said that's the year we
were born.

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And I was like, Oh my goodness
gracious, That's that's wild.

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But I had to give them, I had to
really prep them in advance and

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explain that, you know, what a
drama was and how everything you

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know what from the from the
cinematography to the acting is

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much more intentional and that
you know, they're not going to

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this is a different type of
movie that they're than what

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they're used to watching, where
not everything is a cut

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immediately.
And you know, the bodies tell

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stories and the camera tells
stories.

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And you still get some of that
today, but I think a lot less

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less frequently.
And so I was kind of introducing

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them to that genre.
They didn't really know what to

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do with it, you know.
And yeah, I thought that it's,

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you know, so it's it is a, I
guess that genre is a lost art.

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There's a great book by
gentleman Ben Fritz called The

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Big Picture, I believe.
And, and he, he's a Wall Street,

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Wall Street Journal writer for
many years.

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And he, he talks about how the
reason why franchises are the

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primary films that the studios
are green lighting today is

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because the international
audience is so important now to

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the box.
And, and, you know, there's not

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as much, there's not as much
desire for an Ethan Hawke, Robin

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Williams drama as there is, you
know, for, you know, another

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transformer, you know, blowing
up, you know, Taiwan or

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Manhattan or something.
Yeah, yeah.

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That there's a point where the,
you know, the the markets beyond

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the US were just sort of extra,
extra thing.

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Now that we're at now it's it's
it's essential and integral to,

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you know, how they budget the
movie.

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And at the time when the dead
purse came out, you know, Ethan

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Hall wasn't was it was I think
it's his first film.

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So he wasn't a name at all.
Probably Williams isn't was a

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name, but sure, I've not seen
the film since it came out.

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It's kind of, so it sort of
surprises me to sort of for you

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to say, you know, the, the, the
kids found it kind of a

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challenge to watch because to me
it seemed like a very

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straightforward film.
But obviously ties move on.

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Yeah, yeah.
We're seeing, we're seeing our

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00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,680
attention spans getting, you
know, shot down.

226
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:25,800
And it happens to be that
because the school that I teach

227
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,000
at is an Orthodox Jewish school,
most of the students don't have

228
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,720
smartphones and they're not even
allowed to have them.

229
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,920
And so you could see the, the
developmental difference even

230
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,560
I'm the oldest of 6 and, you
know, my youngest brother's 14,

231
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,920
I'm 30.
And, and he, and the difference

232
00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:45,760
in attention and the difference
in the way that you can

233
00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,720
appreciate a film, I think is
pretty dramatic without, you

234
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,840
know, without having that
smartphone, you know, and the

235
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,240
way that you develop and go up.
Can you tell me a little bit

236
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,840
about the, about the corruption
with the mafia and the unions?

237
00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,120
And if you want to explain just
if anyone doesn't know what

238
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,680
unions are in the way they work
within the world of Hollywood.

239
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,640
OK, let's see if I can remember.
So, you know, with the ending of

240
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:14,960
prohibition in with prohibition
ended in 20s, When did it end

241
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,760
anyway?
The mob, the mob, when when

242
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,000
alcohol became legal again to
sell the mob, The mob was

243
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,080
looking for a new outlet.
Hollywood became one of those,

244
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,600
one of those outlets.
And one of the ways in was that

245
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,800
they, they would approach the
technicians unions, the people

246
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,000
who, who managed the, the unions
who, the, the organisations who

247
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,640
supported the, the people who
were the carpenters at the

248
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,680
studios.
These are all the projectionists

249
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,080
and the body that was supposed
to look after the, their

250
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,120
interests of the, of the
projectionists and the

251
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,720
carpenters, for example, and the
scene shifters.

252
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,040
And the more managed to
infiltrate that union and sort

253
00:12:52,040 --> 00:13:00,200
of say, you know, we will they
mostly infiltrate it and

254
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,440
actually start running it and
and then say, and then say to

255
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:09,600
the studios, rather than
improving the conditions for

256
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,640
these workers, give us a
kickback, a financial, you know,

257
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,520
give us some money and we'll
just we'll all pay a little lip

258
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,960
service to improve conditions.
So we'll do a little bit for the

259
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,280
workers, but mainly money's
going back to the mob.

260
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,440
And if you don't, and if you
don't do it, all these workers,

261
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,360
all the protectionists will shut
down and then you won't have

262
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,560
anyone coming in, you know, no
one, no one paying tickets,

263
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,520
sure, buying tickets at your
cinemas.

264
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,440
And this happened in the late,
late 30s and early 40s.

265
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:42,920
And finally, the law caught up
with them, and the head of one

266
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:47,560
of the studios went to prison
for a short time, and the

267
00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:51,520
mobsters were imprisoned.
And I think one of them later

268
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,840
died in a suspicious car
explosion when he was living

269
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:55,960
near Vegas.
Yeah.

270
00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,240
Yeah, it's suspicious, I, I
tell.

271
00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,280
The better in the book, yeah.
I see, I see.

272
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,560
Yeah, there was.
Oh man, I'm going to have to

273
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:11,080
recall the name of the book, but
I read about studio head

274
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,600
corruption and and
misappropriation of funds.

275
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:16,960
Oh man, it's going to drive me
crazy.

276
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,720
And I believe it was the
Columbia.

277
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,520
David Bagel man book and decent
exposure.

278
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:23,120
David.
Bagel.

279
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,040
Decent exposure.
Yes, that book was spectacular.

280
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,760
Yeah, cover to cover was great.
Long time ago since I looked at

281
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,120
that book.
But yeah, David Bagel, I tell, I

282
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,880
tell his story briefly in my
book, but only in, oh, yeah, 200

283
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:36,280
words.
Yeah.

284
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,000
Yeah, it's a great, it was a
great book.

285
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,320
And is that is that is that the
same around the same time period

286
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,960
that is occurring or?
No, because Begman was I think

287
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,360
late 70s, early 80s, and there's
thought I was talking about the

288
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,400
1940s, Yeah.
Gotcha.

289
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,440
And did.
The, the, the, the, the studio

290
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:52,880
header went to prison for a
while.

291
00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,040
Actually had a relationship with
a young Marilyn Monroe, like

292
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:58,280
before she was famous.
Yeah.

293
00:14:58,720 --> 00:14:59,160
Really.
He was.

294
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,440
He was much older, yeah, but
yeah.

295
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:03,800
She's been getting a lot of
people in trouble for a while,

296
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:05,880
huh?
I guess.

297
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,320
I mean, I don't know if you
could blame her, but yeah.

298
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,800
How does, how does, how does one
remove the mafia once they kind

299
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,880
of get the hooks into, you know,
some kind of one remove the

300
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,040
mafia once they get the hooks
into an organization, I mean.

301
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,680
Yeah, I mean, those guys did go
to prison.

302
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,880
So that was that was that sort
of that sort of I think ended

303
00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,080
that thing.
I don't know enough now to sort

304
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,280
of know how close things are,
but but that was the sort of the

305
00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,840
story from that period and it's
told, I think again in quite a

306
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:39,240
good book.
The the I can't remember it

307
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:39,840
right now.
I'll tell you.

308
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,040
I'll tell you before I'll.
Come to you, it was.

309
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:43,680
Surfaced at the end of the
interview, Yeah.

310
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,280
Definitely, definitely,
definitely.

311
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:46,960
Yeah, I did.
I did.

312
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,240
I did an episode with a
gentleman that studies the

313
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,920
history of gambling in general
and in Vegas and the mafia

314
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,840
connection, obviously.
And one of the ways that he

315
00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,200
basically said that the
government had to catch the

316
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,120
mafia in Vegas and get rid of
them was pretty much to kind of

317
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,600
just strip them of their civil
liberties and then, you know,

318
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,760
find them guilty and just toss
them in prison.

319
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,840
You know, which I'm not quite
sure what I think.

320
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,400
And you know the problem.
I've been thinking about this

321
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,320
quite a bit recently that, you
know, people say that regulation

322
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,200
leads to corruption, obviously,
but lack of regulation leads to

323
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,480
corruption too.
So like, you know, there's

324
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,720
really no perfect world.
And I think all we have to do is

325
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,520
just really be as vigilant as
possible because, you know,

326
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,160
there, there is no perfect
system that people will not be

327
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,680
able to, you know, kind of sneak
their way into and, you know,

328
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,840
one way or another really 'cause
some kind of damage.

329
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,000
So tell me a little bit.
I'm sorry.

330
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,120
So, so you, you see, how did you
get commissioned to?

331
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,360
So you you said that you were in
house, you're an editor and you

332
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,200
get commissioned to write this
book and you have a couple of

333
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,000
months to write it.
No, I had, I think I had sort of

334
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,840
from June to sort of late
September, yeah.

335
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,200
But adequate time is that is
that that that's.

336
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,480
Good.
But it was a real thrill.

337
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,000
It was because I think 58,000
words, including captions, like

338
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,839
quite long captions.
And that was a great thrill to

339
00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:13,440
write it.
And yeah, I would have happily

340
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,520
spent much longer.
But that was the sort of that

341
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:16,839
was what the schedule they were
working on.

342
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:20,319
And and there's there's quite
sort of, you know, I had nothing

343
00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:22,880
else planned for that summer.
So it was quite nice to say, OK,

344
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,040
this is all I'm going to do, you
know, and.

345
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,400
I'll and you always wanted to be
a writer.

346
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,760
I suppose, you know, when I was
younger, I was thinking about

347
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,240
movies and my, my father's, you
know, has been a journalist and

348
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,000
a novelist and a screenwriter.
So there's a sort of you grew up

349
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,640
absorbing this, this, this sort
of way of life, you know, for

350
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,240
better or for worse.
You know, maybe I should have

351
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:47,240
kind of looked further afield.
But, and so my, all my jobs have

352
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,360
sort of been on different sides
of this desk, either writing a

353
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,560
book or editing a book or when I
was in journalism.

354
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,000
But a lot of my work was sort of
finding books that we could do

355
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,840
do extracts from, like not
finding, pulling the thread out

356
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,840
of out of a biography to tell a
story.

357
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,280
So it's all sort of storytelling
in different ways.

358
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,000
And then when I then before
that, I was sort of trying to do

359
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,120
screen writing.
So I was trying to make up

360
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:08,120
stories and things.
And it was always.

361
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:09,120
Interesting.
What's the difference?

362
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,760
In the process story, sorry.
What's the difference in the

363
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,800
creative process when you when
you're trying to, when you're

364
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,400
trying to come up with a story,
how do you kind of outline that?

365
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,680
Well, I suppose I, I've had, you
know, less experience, also

366
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,400
less, less success in that
field.

367
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,840
And I suppose, you know, with
that, you're sort of stuck with

368
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:24,360
the blank page.
Whereas when you're writing a

369
00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:26,240
non fiction book, you're, you're
always drawing on something.

370
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,400
There's always another book on
David Bagel or, or on, you know,

371
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:34,080
1940s Hollywood that, that, that
you can look at.

372
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:35,440
So there's always more research
to be done.

373
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,240
And the, the danger is you end
up doing too much research or

374
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,640
you haven't got, we've run out
of time or, or you're kind of

375
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:40,920
you can't see the wood for the
trees.

376
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,440
And in fiction, you're fiction,
something kind of, you know,

377
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,360
seems interesting to you and you
sort of start running with it

378
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:48,840
and think this is going to go
very far.

379
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,320
I sometimes think about fiction
a bit like a bit like a sort of

380
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,280
Doctor Frankenstein studio and
you've got all these sort of

381
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,880
bits of severed limbs and, you
know, a torso, but no head.

382
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:03,360
Well, you've got a head but no
torso.

383
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:06,440
And you don't quite, and you
can't quite get the electricity

384
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,720
to it to, to make it come alive,
but you've got all these bits on

385
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,160
on a good day.
You think of it in more like an

386
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:12,920
artist's studio where there are
kind of some, maybe some

387
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,240
unfinished paintings, but
there's bits and pieces going on

388
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,600
and and you think at one point I
will finish that and it will

389
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,160
come to life and go somewhere.
Yeah.

390
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,920
So I've got various folders of
ideas and things scribble down

391
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,560
and things.
I'm very busy right now with

392
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,880
with other things.
So sure, sure, sure, sure.

393
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,080
Well, if you're editing and
you're looking for or you're

394
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,680
looking for a good story, what
are you looking for that catches

395
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,520
your eye as far as freshness or
character, you know, more

396
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,280
character driven story.
How do you determine what's

397
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,040
like, you know, what's going to
try to catch people's eye?

398
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,800
I mean, mainly now I'm working
in nonfiction and a lot of that

399
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,880
is history.
And you're so a lot of the

400
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:53,640
history is sort of quite well,
actually, it's just the history

401
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,080
of a country or it's the history
of a particular moment, moment,

402
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,120
moment.
So it's not necessarily hugely

403
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:01,320
character LED.
That said character LED history

404
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,040
is, is is is very stimulating
because it's much more

405
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,840
interesting for the reader to
follow one one person through or

406
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,960
a few people through a story
rather than, you know, you know,

407
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,280
15 different presidents or
something.

408
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:19,000
Yeah, So so.
You're looking for the kind of

409
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,760
both the interesting idea and
also how well the the author

410
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,680
tells it and how well do they
write, You know, and.

411
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,760
What would be considered good or
bad writing?

412
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,280
Like what what?
What would you look to avoid?

413
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,000
You know, avoid the cliches.
Tell me something I didn't

414
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,280
already know.
If you can tell me something

415
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,760
I'll already know, kind of tell
me it it to me in a surprising

416
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,720
way that kind of takes me, you
know, makes me think, oh, I

417
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:41,720
didn't know.
You know, I was reading

418
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,480
something that earlier today and
I thought, well, I kind of know,

419
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,760
know most of this already.
And the person who's telling it

420
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,560
to me isn't sort of presenting
it with any sort of fresh

421
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,160
insight.
So even if it's a well known

422
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,320
story, at least have such a good
perspective on it that you're

423
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:56,720
bringing something fresh to the
topic.

424
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,960
Right.
What kind of tasks do you set

425
00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:01,720
your your pupils to write at
school?

426
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:09,760
So it's actually funny you ask.
I primarily focus on creative

427
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,920
and self expressive assignments
as in, you know, write a story

428
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,040
about like, I just had my class
write a poem and the 2 rules

429
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,280
were it has to be about
something negative and it can't

430
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,240
end on a on a happy note.
And yeah, and one of the reasons

431
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,200
why is, like you said earlier,
to kind of avoid those cliches.

432
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,480
And my first year of writing in
college, I would only write, you

433
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,600
know, happy poetry.
And it was all bad.

434
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:35,920
It was all, it was all quite
awful.

435
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,240
And and my professor, you know,
pulled me aside one time.

436
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,200
He said, listen, he goes, I
really do appreciate the mindset

437
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,440
that you have where you're
trying to focus on the good.

438
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,360
He's like CE OS.
The problem is it comes off

439
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,120
sounding inauthentic and not
quite as organic.

440
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,200
And he's like, maybe try to be a
little bit more raw or a little

441
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:01,000
bit more real in your writing.
And, and then as the, as the

442
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,360
years have kind of followed,
I've noticed that my writing was

443
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:08,040
always better when I was kind of
trying to work through something

444
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,440
that I was, that was going on in
my, you know, and whether that

445
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,960
was fictional or whether that
was a poem or that was a letter

446
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:15,440
to myself.
And I'm just trying to work

447
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:16,960
through, you know, what's going
on in my head.

448
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:19,880
And I'm kind of trying and I'm
trying to give my students that

449
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:25,320
ability to do that because, you
know, I'm sure you're, I'm sure

450
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,040
you're just as aware as I am
that by the time these 9th

451
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,720
graders are in 12th grade, who
knows what, what college English

452
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,800
class is going to look like and
to what extent, you know, it's

453
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,720
even going to even be relevant
or necessary.

454
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,760
So, you know, I, I'm trying, I'm
trying to think about what is

455
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,400
going to be useful to them as
they get older.

456
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,240
And I think that one of the most
useful things that we can use

457
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,040
the English language for is to
help understand, is to help

458
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,960
express ourselves and understand
others and try to, if we don't

459
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,040
understand others, to use our
words to figure out what it is

460
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,960
that we get or don't get and to
kind of come to some kind of

461
00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,360
similar conclusion, you know?
Yeah.

462
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,040
Sounds good.
Yeah.

463
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,760
And, and you know, and I found
in, in, you know, you have

464
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:12,560
experimented with this, with the
students in class, that by

465
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,800
repackaging what they say back
to them and then presenting an

466
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:22,320
argument makes them much more
likely to be thoughtful about it

467
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,040
or consider another perspective
because you're, you're showing

468
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,040
them that, Hey, I understand
exactly where you're coming

469
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:30,560
from.
Like you, you are heard.

470
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,960
I, I, I, I understand you.
I understand the point you're

471
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:34,200
making and what you're trying to
say.

472
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,160
Have you considered in your
train of thought or in the way

473
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,400
that you're framing this, have
you considered that perspective

474
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,400
as well?
Because maybe that'll change the

475
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,280
way that you saw, you know, the
way that you actually have this

476
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,000
prep, this prep, this
preposition, this presupposition

477
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,320
rather.
And, and it and it typically

478
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:51,360
works.
It really does.

479
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,080
So if that could be the skill
that I teach them as far as, as

480
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,080
far as, you know,
self-expression in writing goes,

481
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,000
then I'm very happy.
And then as far as literature

482
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,120
goes, we kind of bounce around
quite a bit, their attention.

483
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,960
What kind of literature are you
are they reading?

484
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,480
It depends.
It depends on what they're I, I

485
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,320
actually give them a lot of
input.

486
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,880
So if they want to talk about
something in one class, love the

487
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,240
history of film.
So we've actually been talking

488
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,280
about Pixar.
We've been talking about how the

489
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:28,640
company got started and, and all
their creative strategies, like,

490
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,280
for example, the fact that they
don't take typical characters

491
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,120
they don't like every story is
not about a human being or two

492
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:38,120
human beings.
They have to be something a

493
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,280
different take on main
characters.

494
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,040
They can't be musicals and they
can't be traditional love

495
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,960
stories where boy meets girl
tries to find her, there's a

496
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,800
conflict and they end up back
together again.

497
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,360
And because at that point in the
90s, Disney was really

498
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,760
suffocating the market with
other, you know, the other

499
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,880
golden age of, of Disney
animation movies from Katzenberg

500
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:04,800
and, and, and Michael Eisner and
Pixar didn't know how to stand

501
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,760
out from them.
And this is one of the ways that

502
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,440
we came up with.
So reading material on that some

503
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,080
classes like psychology, more
understanding ourselves and

504
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,440
understanding kind of our
behaviour and the way that we

505
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,960
think.
And they, you know, we talk

506
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,640
about a lot about where the
place of anxiety, you know,

507
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,880
what, what place it has and
where it can, where it comes

508
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:29,280
from and how it gets out of hand
and, and a lot of other, you

509
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,240
know, experiences and emotions
that we have to try to

510
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,960
understand ourselves.
And you know, the best thing,

511
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,480
they look at me, they go, Mr.
Hirshman, this is just a

512
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:37,800
therapy.
This is just therapy glass.

513
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,640
And it's like, lucky, Yeah,
lucky you.

514
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:41,640
Exactly.
I'm not, you're lucky.

515
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,280
I'm not billing you for this.
You know, I'm billing your

516
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,120
parents for this because, you
know, I really, I really would

517
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:50,120
or, or should.
But one of my one of my biggest

518
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:53,000
challenges that I have as a
writer, personally, I, I'm good

519
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,960
at creating the fresh content
and unique kind of perspective

520
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,760
on things.
One of my challenges, I have a

521
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,880
very hard time keeping track of
a whole story or a whole

522
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,640
sequence or a whole narrative in
my head.

523
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,080
And I'm not organized enough to
really be able to, to really

524
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,720
know how to lay it all out.
That's not the really the way my

525
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,120
brain works.
Would you have any kind of

526
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,200
recommendations as to the way to
the way to kind of get more

527
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,040
organised or to or any
recommendations how to keep

528
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,800
track of a story for a longer
period of time?

529
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,240
Well, I, I suppose, you know, we
will find, you know, our own,

530
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,320
our own way there somewhere.
And some people would say you

531
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:34,240
have to kind of outline it very,
very, very, yeah, rigidly and

532
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,120
then stick to your outline.
And then you kind of know where

533
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:37,560
you're going.
And other people say, well, I

534
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,280
don't, I don't need to do that
because I know where I'm going.

535
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,000
So that's fine.
I would say no, I just want to

536
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,120
kind of start and see where I
go.

537
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:46,080
And I hope that it goes
somewhere interesting.

538
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:47,720
And maybe that's the, the thing
to do.

539
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,120
You know that yeah, you'll go,
you'll go somewhere and as as

540
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:56,160
you're going, you will find, I
mean, maybe it's not the story

541
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,480
you have originally thought you
were going to write, but you

542
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,520
write something else and that
becomes something worthwhile

543
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:01,600
anyway.
So it doesn't matter where you

544
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,600
thought you were going to go in
the 1st place because the story

545
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,800
has LED you elsewhere.
So I kind of hope that these,

546
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,240
these things sort of work for
people and everything.

547
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,400
Like everyone, everyone's
different.

548
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:13,760
Everyone has a different
approach to it.

549
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,040
Not the English novelist William
Boyd says when people say to

550
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,160
him, I've got a great idea for
the opening of a novel, and he

551
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,480
always said, he says, I always
say to them, have you got an

552
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,800
ending?
Because you know, for him,

553
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,680
obviously it's more important to
know where you're going to go.

554
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,600
And he always knows where his
novel's going to start, when

555
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,520
it's going to end, what the
story's going to be before he's,

556
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,000
he does all his research 1st and
before he actually starts

557
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,720
writing it, like a year to
research, a year to write it.

558
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,040
And he says and the, and the
researching and the sort of

559
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,840
planning does involve lots of
sort of blind alleys and that,

560
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,840
oh, no, that one, we'll have to
change things.

561
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,040
But others, others work
differently.

562
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,760
Obviously, there was a lot of,
you know, what you don't want is

563
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,360
a lot of sort of abandoned
material.

564
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,920
Although you suppose you could
say that that's part of the

565
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,280
process of finding your way as a
writer and thinking, you know,

566
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,320
actually I, you know, I can't
quite bring this character to

567
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,440
life or I don't quite know where
this, this particular story is

568
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,360
going.
But from that, something else

569
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,240
might happen that you might.
Yeah, you can recycle.

570
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:08,960
You think of something else and
you have a different character

571
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,400
and you realise and you, you
know, you've, you work out and

572
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,560
also people's styles.
You know, some people write a

573
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,320
lot of plot, some people don't
write a lot of plot.

574
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,440
And it doesn't matter as long as
it, as long as what you're doing

575
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,040
works.
You know, that what, what and

576
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,800
finding, I suppose also just
finding your voice.

577
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,560
You know that I think it's quite
interesting when you can't look

578
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,760
at some some writers and things.
I can't obviously can't right

579
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:30,360
now.
I can't right now.

580
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,880
I can't think of any examples.
But who in the in the early in

581
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,320
the early work were doing
something.

582
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,000
I know it's sort of OK, but they
hadn't quite hit their stride.

583
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,720
And then they sort of found
whether it's in novels or in

584
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,680
screen writing, and then they
sort of found this is what I'm

585
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,480
good at.
And you know, like they were

586
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,320
trying to be a very serious
writer, but actually naturally

587
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:48,400
they were a sort of comic
writer.

588
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,720
And that's what their strength
was, you know, and or vice

589
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,400
versa, or they were trying to be
funny, but they weren't very

590
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:53,640
funny.
But but they were great at sort

591
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,040
of historical research.
And that was that was what they

592
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,080
should be doing.
The guy who writes the actually

593
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,520
the guy who writes the crown or
the the TV Series A Crown about

594
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,280
the British royal family.
He did various things at first

595
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,080
in screen writing, including
writing sort of a couple of

596
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,640
romantic comedies and things,
and then kind of hit on the fact

597
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,680
that he was better at doing
factually based dramas, things

598
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,040
about about real people,
researching them and then

599
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,160
writing a drama around that.
And that's what he's since he

600
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,000
found that that's pretty much
all he's done since then is

601
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,200
write things that are about as
the crown or politicians or

602
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,720
people in public life.
But that goes back to what you

603
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,840
were mentioning earlier where
you know the difference between

604
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,960
having a blank page or some kind
of strand to start pulling at,

605
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,720
you know, and see exactly where
you go with that.

606
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,960
Yeah, it's also fun.
I'm a huge, I've been a huge

607
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,120
Springsteen nut for about 7
years now.

608
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,480
And, and I've listened to one of
the, one of the, one of the

609
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,800
great things I, I tend to like
artists that have this, they

610
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,360
have, the artists have big
archives of all their live

611
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,360
performances are a ton of fun to
go through because you really

612
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,080
get a idea as to who the artist
is as they perform in the way

613
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,280
and interact with the crowd.
And, and you really could feel

614
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,320
the, the magic and the energy in
the air.

615
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,080
Even when you're listening 50
years later, you can, I mean,

616
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,840
it's so tangible.
And one thing that I've noticed

617
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,240
that, you know, because I would,
I would listen to let's say an

618
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,880
album and I'd listen to the tour
and see how, you know, the live

619
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,880
versions compared to the studio
versions.

620
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,600
I tend to like the live versions
more.

621
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,280
But one of the things that I
noticed was that he would, that

622
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,880
Springsteen would have snippets
where he would kind of be

623
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,440
improvising in the middle of a
song.

624
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,560
And he'd have phrases where he'd
like kind of throw them out

625
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,840
while there was an instrument,
while there was an instrumental

626
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,080
break.
And he'd kind of mess around

627
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,880
with words and flow with a
little rhythm and just mix

628
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,800
something in there.
And then the next album, you'll

629
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,920
hear those words again as the
name of the song that he was

630
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,120
been working on the whole time.
And you can see that the chord

631
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,360
structure and the music
structure kind of was plucked

632
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:54,480
from this, from this other song.
And and he, you know, and if you

633
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,400
the the the examples, I think
was in Backstreet is one of his

634
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:04,200
more famous songs from born to
run in 75 and drive all night

635
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:09,200
from the river in in 1980.
You know, he the a bunch of the

636
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,880
lyrics and the verses came from
his impromptu rambles during

637
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,920
badge streets and the year and
the years leading up to it.

638
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,320
So that's.
Interesting to to trace the sort

639
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,160
of creative process, yeah?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

640
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:22,800
And that's, and that's the
that's the fun thing about

641
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,040
people.
And I guess, you know, you kind

642
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,960
of almost become a historian in
and of itself when you kind of

643
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,520
dive into these, you know, these
these musicians and these

644
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,440
performances as as deeply as you
can, because you do notice these

645
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,280
nuances and you pick up on them
and you find out, hey, when you

646
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,880
played that rendition of this in
this particular version that

647
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,240
year, like, what were you
thinking of?

648
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,480
And you know, it's it's it's a
ton of fun.

649
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,360
It really is very cool.
Have you?

650
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:47,680
Yeah.
Go ahead.

651
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:48,360
Go carry on.
Yeah.

652
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,120
Please please.
My question is irrevant to what

653
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,720
you've just been saying.
Let me ask you one first.

654
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,480
Yeah, please go ahead.
I was going to change the topic

655
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,000
too.
OK, I was just going to ask.

656
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,560
I was thinking about the kids
that you were showing Dead Poets

657
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,600
Society too, and I thought, you
know, can you show them a black

658
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,320
and white film or have you?
It would be, it would be.

659
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,640
It would have to be a sell and I
would have to prime them.

660
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,360
I'd have to emotionally prepare
them for what they're about to

661
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,480
experience.
If they walked in, they just

662
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,680
walked in from the whole day and
they just popped down in the

663
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,760
seats and I popped on the black
and white film.

664
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,200
The odds are very, very low that
they would just sit there and

665
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:24,520
watch it.
But if I would sit there and I'd

666
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,760
explain what it is they're about
to look for and what was so and

667
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,040
provide some of the context.
Because one of the big things

668
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:37,240
that I noticed as a teacher is
that my students don't want to

669
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:38,640
be there.
And I'm the teacher.

670
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,000
I want to be there.
You know, I find education

671
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,840
valuable.
And so I'm putting all this time

672
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,960
and effort into finding creating
fun and creative assignments and

673
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,960
fun interesting topics for them.
And all they think is I have to

674
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,280
go to class now.
So, you know, I try.

675
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,880
I actually, there's a certain
point with a couple of my

676
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,200
classes throughout the years
where I've been able to

677
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,240
essentially tell them, I want
you guys to have autonomy and

678
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,280
maturity and start making your
own decisions.

679
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,000
If you feel like you, if you
don't want to be in class for

680
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,480
these 40 minutes, but you will
do the, you'll do the makeup

681
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,280
work for the week.
I'll give you a weeks worth of

682
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,680
assignments in advance.
If you come to me at the end of

683
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,040
the week and you provide with me
all the assignments, you don't

684
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,840
have to come to my class and
you'll still get a good grade,

685
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,720
you know, because as long as
you're to me, and I hope you

686
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,800
agree, but a lot of this stuff
is a muscle that you just have

687
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,400
to keep on exercising.
And I don't care whether you're

688
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,280
exercising it between the hour,
the, the hours of four and 4:40

689
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,960
or whenever or 10:00 to 10:45 at
night, if you're in your own

690
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,040
room, if you want, you know, but
I just want you to be doing that

691
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,280
and, and present and giving them
that opportunity make you know,

692
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:46,720
and almost none of them took me
up on it.

693
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,880
OK.
When when provided the

694
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,160
opportunity for that, they said,
you know, what if we don't have

695
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:53,960
to be here, but like, what else
are we going to do anyway?

696
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,360
Then let's go.
You know, at least, at least at

697
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,520
least it's a choice that that
they that they make, that they

698
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,000
whatever they want to join.
And also it not being there that

699
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,960
involves them having to think
more about managing their own

700
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,480
time or studying at home.
No.

701
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,719
And I think they'll go with you
and say, OK, well, you'll,

702
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,800
you'll a teacher, Mr. Harrison.
You're responsible for what we

703
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,679
have to do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

704
00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:19,639
It's the problem is with
teaching.

705
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:21,239
I was talking about this in
episode I was recording

706
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,639
yesterday is that you really
have to be a moron or a martyr

707
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:27,199
to be a teacher, You know, and,
and I do it part time and I, you

708
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:31,159
know, I have other, I, I, I, I
do sales on the on the side and

709
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,040
I do this.
What kind of sales do you do?

710
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,440
I sell medical equipment.
It's a little family business

711
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,199
that my dad started when I was a
kid.

712
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,560
And you know, so I, I have the
luxury of working from home and

713
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,199
being able to go into school and
if I have anything urgent, I

714
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:50,760
could text, e-mail or call a
customer back or deal with

715
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,080
anything you got to deal with.
But primarily, it's usually

716
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,760
pretty quiet by 4:00 to 6:15 PM
every day.

717
00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,400
So I'm typically, I'm typically
not missing too much and it

718
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,520
gives me the opportunity to feel
like I'm giving back.

719
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,400
And also I, I, I, once I
started, I loved it.

720
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,160
You know, once you start seeing
the potential and the creativity

721
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,600
of, of, of kids, it just reminds
you of, of how much hope there

722
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,240
could be, you know, for, for,
you know, a lot.

723
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,400
There's a ton of potential and
talent and creativity out there

724
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:23,400
in the youth.
And we kind of just watch it or

725
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,000
try to, you know, we try to fix
fit, you know, fit triangles

726
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,800
into squares or squares into
triangles.

727
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,640
And we don't, we don't let them
be themselves.

728
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,320
And I can only imagine how much
more fun the world would be if

729
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,040
everyone kind of got to be
themselves a little bit more.

730
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:36,360
Right.
Good.

731
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:37,560
And how did you get into
teaching?

732
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,240
I always wanted to, I always
wanted, but there was, but there

733
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:44,400
was an open, there was an
opening and they said flexible

734
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,560
hours.
So I said they have flexible

735
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:47,800
hours.
And then, then I would love to

736
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,800
do that.
But you know, and I, I actually,

737
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,040
it's funny, I always, I also had
ambitions of being a

738
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,840
screenwriter until I took a
college course and my professor

739
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:03,320
told me my character, he read
like he was autistic and, and

740
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,240
he's like, was that intentional?
And I said it was not

741
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:07,200
intentional.
And he said, well, then you have

742
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,640
a lot of work to do and which is
which is, you know, good advice.

743
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:17,360
And but one thing I did notice
that was and my uncle as part of

744
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,440
the writers Guild.
And so he used to get scripts

745
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,680
every year sent to him and
hoping for him to vote for them.

746
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,960
So I've gotten my hands on a
bunch of fun scripts over the

747
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:27,600
years.
And what's really cool to see is

748
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,880
the difference between the way
that they play out on on word

749
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,840
and words and the way that they
play out on screen and Irishman,

750
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,320
for example, which is right down
I got must be down your alley as

751
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,280
far as actually.
I've not seen it, but I know

752
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,320
what you mean, yeah.
Yeah, you know, that that that

753
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,920
movie, the script was
remarkable.

754
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,760
I read the script and I and I
was blown away.

755
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,280
And I was glued to it and I
inhaled it and it was just just

756
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,440
awesome.
And then I watched it and I was,

757
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,080
I was only disappointed because
of how good the script was.

758
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,520
OK, OK.
You know that that it was the.

759
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,440
D aging thing OK.
I think that was part of the

760
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,600
problem.
Yeah, I think that was part of

761
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,600
the problem.
I think that, and I hate to say

762
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,760
it because they're they've given
so much to the genres and to

763
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,120
cinema, but I think that like,
you know, Scorsese's got to find

764
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,080
the young mobster, you know, I
mean, how old was De Niro when

765
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,360
he starred in The Godfather 2?
I mean, there are, you know,

766
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:27,760
anything that he did.
Al Pacino.

767
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,240
I mean, these guys, these guys
weren't start, you know, weren't

768
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:32,000
starring in The Godfather when
they were 80.

769
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,640
You know, I mean, even Marlon
Brando was, you know, was it was

770
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,360
not even that it was not up
there.

771
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,880
So I think that's a big problem
that we have in Hollywood today.

772
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,000
And perhaps you could talk about
the corruption that, you know,

773
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,520
that that works in the sense
that who gets to get where as

774
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,760
far as acting and actors and
talent goes.

775
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:51,680
You know, you talked a little
bit about the stocks and the

776
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,680
extortion.
I saw that there were some

777
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,520
topics that you dive that you
dove into.

778
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,000
What is What does it take to be
successful in Hollywood?

779
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,560
Yeah, I don't know about right
now, but I mean, I think all

780
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:09,720
these things is, you know, I
think Steven Soderbergh, the,

781
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:14,840
you know, director said, you
know, talent, talent plus

782
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:20,120
perseverance equals luck.
And, you know, I think I think

783
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,880
Hollywood is is it's so
difficult for anyone to sort of

784
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,880
to to get going.
So I think it's just a sort of,

785
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,640
you know, it is kind of like a
lot of work hard, a lot of

786
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,320
persistence and you know, you
and you hope that with, you

787
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,000
know, talent and, and and graft
and some luck that that that

788
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,680
things will sort of will pay
off.

789
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:40,120
Yeah.
But there's a whole history of

790
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,160
studio executives being taking
advantage of, you know, I mean,

791
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:45,600
I don't really know the extent
of men.

792
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,240
I'm sure.
I'm sure that does exist quite a

793
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:50,440
bit because Hollywood has always
been kind of a big gay culture,

794
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:55,240
I think.
And, and, but I mean, we

795
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:58,200
definitely know tons of stories
about about the abuse of women

796
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:00,960
and throughout.
The whole Harvey Weinstein stuff

797
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,320
and the and the me too stuff,
which this sort of stuff came

798
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:04,960
out.
Weinstein sort of came out after

799
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,960
I'd first, the first the book
was written came out first in

800
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,960
2014, ever since updated it.
But yeah, the history, history

801
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:12,600
of the sort of casting catch and
other things.

802
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,200
Yeah, there's been there from
the from the beginning.

803
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,160
And you know, you've got, you
know, very powerful men.

804
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,080
You've got a lot of young pretty
women.

805
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,680
The women will want a break in
this career.

806
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,480
Some of these men, you know,
will try to abuse that position.

807
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,480
Yeah.
Some of the women, you know,

808
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,720
will, will, will, might see it
as OK, I'm going to sort of see

809
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:34,120
this as a transactional thing.
And I hope it plays in my

810
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:35,160
favour.
And I'm sure there are plenty of

811
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:36,400
stories where it did play in
their favour.

812
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,680
And others think actually it it
didn't get me very far.

813
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,320
I I just ended up sleeping with
someone and and I didn't get a

814
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,480
good part or a good career.
And others would have just said,

815
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,800
no, I'm not doing it.
I mean, I think Ava Gardner, the

816
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,000
actress has sort of said in the
19 would have been 1930s at MGM

817
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,040
and she said, oh, well, you
know, I knew girls who, you

818
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,200
know, if this isn't so much
casting cuts as like a little

819
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,240
bit of prostitution.
So saying, Oh, I know people who

820
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:01,840
if, you know, if the rent was
low, they they, they give a

821
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,240
little bit away, you know, so
there's, there's always been an

822
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:07,120
element of sleaze in the in
Hollywood.

823
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,360
You know, it was a, it was a
new, a new industry that was

824
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:18,200
sort of uncharted at the time.
And is now more than a century

825
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,000
old, but it's say like in the
1930s, it was a very young

826
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,200
industry.
And yeah, power, beauty, youth

827
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:30,560
sleaze, corruption in that way.
And I think also, but plenty of

828
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,920
also a lot of plenty of decent
people just just working away,

829
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,320
getting on with their lives and
jobs.

830
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,440
Yeah, yeah.
It kind of reminds.

831
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,120
I mean it, it absolutely kind of
reminds me of of today's world

832
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,280
in the sense that in order to
get ahead, in order to become

833
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,360
anything, you either have to
work incredibly hard or be

834
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,680
incredibly divisive or
incredibly inappropriate.

835
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,920
You know, I mean, it's pretty
much one of those, it's pretty

836
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,600
much one of those 3.
And, you know, there are plenty

837
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,480
of people that make that make
whole careers, you know, out of

838
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,240
a formerly promiscuous
reputation or formerly or, you

839
00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:05,400
know, or people that caught, you
know, just stir up hate, you

840
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:10,520
know, and just use just use a
good amount of divisive language

841
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,960
that kind of attracts everyone.
And that's a good way to get

842
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,320
actually, the reason why I
started this podcast to begin

843
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,560
with was I feel like all this
information that we consume

844
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,240
could be either junk food or
health food.

845
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,440
And I think that a lot of the
people that kind of get to the

846
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,360
top get to the top vis A vis the
junk food method.

847
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,760
And the goal of the podcast is
to be organic and healthy and to

848
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:39,000
kind of provide reasonable and
useful information that could

849
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,480
unify people that people want to
listen to, to make their lives

850
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,720
better, not because they're
getting some kind of outrage

851
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:46,840
dopamine hit, you know?
Yeah, yeah.

852
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,240
I mean, you sort of hope that
the that, yeah, the dopamine

853
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:53,640
hit, the short, the short time
sugar rush will will pass.

854
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,560
And then in time people will
kind of find things that are of

855
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,880
value that are out there.
Yeah.

856
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:07,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I don't know, I the, the,

857
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,800
the film world world has become
so democratized and studios kind

858
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,320
of don't even have the same
reputation.

859
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,280
I I either.
A lot of people don't want to go

860
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,360
to the movies to the same
extent, and they only want to go

861
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,640
for some kind of cultural
experience.

862
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,680
The problem is it's very
difficult to make a cultural

863
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,800
experience when no one's going
to any movies, you know?

864
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,160
So, you know, it's kind of it's
kind of this, it's kind of this

865
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,000
spiralling, you know, self
fulfilling death prophecy for

866
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,760
for studios.
And I would love for people to

867
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,720
come back to it because I'm
actually a huge fan of the

868
00:42:39,720 --> 00:42:44,400
embodied shared, you know, film,
film watching experience and one

869
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,680
of the best.
And I wish that more people had

870
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,000
done this.
And this also kind of goes back

871
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,800
to your create your originality
point earlier, like what stands

872
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:52,720
out?
What's what's something

873
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,080
different?
I want?

874
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,720
I love to see the good guys
lose.

875
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,840
I love to see, or at least at
least at first, you know, and

876
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,080
one of my favorite cultural
experiences of growing up was

877
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,040
going to see The Avengers
Infinity War, where The Avengers

878
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,400
lost at the end of the first, at
the end of the movie.

879
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,400
And the whole movie theater was
absolutely packed to the brim.

880
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,760
And there were thunderous
moments throughout the film.

881
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,720
Everyone was laughing, everyone
was crying.

882
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:25,520
And then the film ended on like
this dark note and everyone just

883
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,520
kind of shuffled out of the
movie theater without really

884
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:33,080
knowing what was going on.
And, and it was so cool to be in

885
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,880
a collective environment where
so many people were having

886
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,080
highs, lows, highs, a moment of
like so close, a little bit of

887
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,160
hope and then and then let down.
And then now what?

888
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,880
And like you see people trying
to come to terms with like, what

889
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,400
do you do now?
So I think that we actually

890
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:52,600
missed that.
I think that that brings us

891
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,680
together.
I think that that's, I think

892
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,880
it's a wonderful thing.
I'm a big advocate of going to

893
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,400
see of going to see movies.
Me too.

894
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,800
And I think that thing about the
kind of the down ending is very

895
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,880
interesting because you have
seen movies where, you know,

896
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,360
some movies need need an up
ending, some made a down ending.

897
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,560
And you you have seen movies
over the years where you think,

898
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,000
oh, they've they've forced a
happy ending on this film

899
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:13,840
because they think they'll make
it more appealing.

900
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,280
And it just feels, and you just
feel manipulated.

901
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,880
And actually it doesn't make it
a, you know, a good ending.

902
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,760
And you kind of think they've,
you know, they've sabotaged

903
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,280
their own film or the studio is
forced to sort of sabotage their

904
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:28,880
own film and it's not, not as
good.

905
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:30,960
And actually, you think if they
had had the kind of courage to

906
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,680
say, no, no, there's actually
film actually ends down And it

907
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,480
would have had a far greater
impact and would probably have

908
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,480
resonated longer than the one
that kind of came out.

909
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,440
And people kind of liked it
enough, but kind of quickly

910
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,800
forgot about it by the by the
time they got home.

911
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And as far as movies go, I mean,

912
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,440
we as far as the studios go,
rather we know that they're as

913
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,520
as hesitant as can be to make
creative risks.

914
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,200
And then once creative risk does
work out, they just hope to

915
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,320
replicate that ad nauseam until,
until everyone stops going to

916
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,880
see it.
And and I mean, we've seen that

917
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,440
with franchises essentially.
And right, really what the

918
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:15,720
questions are now for lots of
studios is what is the next

919
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,600
franchise that we can start so
that we have 10 years of movies

920
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,680
down the pipeline.
You know, Minions had served, I

921
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,200
think how how enormous it was
and how well it's served for so

922
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,360
many years.
Think about The Avengers and

923
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,880
now, you know, DC is restarting
with James Gunn and now the

924
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,160
Mario world is going to be
absolutely enormous or the

925
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,720
Minecraft world.
And so these studios are not

926
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:40,640
looking necessarily for dramas
or for films about the human

927
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,040
condition.
They're looking to copy paste

928
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,280
success formula.
And I don't think if it you know

929
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:47,600
you can.
That's the reason why.

930
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,840
You buy an existing you, you
licensed an existing, you know,

931
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:52,400
intellectual property, then
they've got.

932
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,120
Barbie's going to be a big one.
You hope you've got a you, you

933
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,920
hope you've got a, you know, an
audience of some scale might not

934
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:01,440
happen, but that's that's the
kind of the.

935
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:03,360
But there's always a direct,
always.

936
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:07,320
There's always, always a direct
correlation between how the, the

937
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,920
rating, the critical rate, the,
the reviews of a film and how

938
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,000
much money the first one makes
and then the second one always

939
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,440
makes more money but gets worse
reviews and so on and so forth.

940
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,960
I mean, there's a few rare
exceptions like Toy Story or The

941
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,240
Godfather, you know, the
original Star Wars movies.

942
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:24,600
But short of that, it's a, it's
a very difficult thing to do.

943
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,920
And a lot of times 'cause they
don't want to take the risks,

944
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,080
they want to copy and paste the,
the, the, the formula that

945
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,240
worked.
And streaming is got to be the

946
00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:35,600
place for creators to do, to be
able to do that.

947
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,920
The real storytelling, I think
you got the.

948
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,320
What I think it was stripping
interesting thing is you just

949
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,120
had this much wider, you know,
many more hours to to to

950
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,640
structure the the the story.
So rather than thinking, rather

951
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,960
than thinking, I've got to get
this out this film into two

952
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,680
hours ish.
You think actually it's like

953
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,680
gone the wind, which where it
was three hour, 4 hour movie in

954
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,000
1939.
Well, that's still on on on as a

955
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,360
as a series.
Yeah.

956
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:01,560
And what do you think, do you
think?

957
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:02,960
I mean, that could have been
great.

958
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:07,240
I mean, I think, I don't know,
you know, I think that Netflix

959
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:09,200
had a Netflix, I think HBO
started it.

960
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,000
But Netflix had a ton of success
recently with their limited

961
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,160
series where they have 6-7
episodes.

962
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:20,840
And I mean I watched that
Scorsese movie The it was like 3

963
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,480
hours long with Leonardo
DiCaprio.

964
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,520
De Niro, the killer of the
rising Sun.

965
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,880
Rising moon?
Yeah, that one.

966
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:33,960
Killers.
Yeah, the new Scorsese movie is

967
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,320
killer.
One of that, yes, Yeah.

968
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:41,760
And that could have been a
remarkable 5 or 6 part Netflix

969
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,880
short series.
In fact, American Primeval was

970
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,120
very similar to it in that kind
of capacity.

971
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,920
And it did.
You just were able to tell a

972
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,240
story super, super, super well.
And I know that Peter Berg, the

973
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:55,640
director has been kind of
popping around on a podcast

974
00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:00,040
talking about how much fun he's
having, not being constrained to

975
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:05,640
that typical 2 hour thing.
And also studios, rather

976
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,880
streaming studios tend to be
much more generous with their

977
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,360
budget, with their budgeting.
They don't have to answer to a

978
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,040
box office.
They don't necessarily have to

979
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,600
release numbers in the same way.
So there's a whole different

980
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,280
level of responsibility that
they have that they can kind of,

981
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,640
they can tell people like Adam
Sandler, do anything you want.

982
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,640
It could be the worst thing that
you've ever always wanted to

983
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,120
make and that you've never got a
chance to do.

984
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,080
But as long as we see the name
Adam Sandler associated with

985
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,160
Netflix on top of it, then we
are happy to pay anything you

986
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:35,040
want for that.
I mean, in the, in the 1980s,

987
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,400
Woody Allen had that had that
kind of arrangement with, with

988
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:40,840
United Artists and then Orion
that they were kind of like,

989
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,480
well, within a certain budget,
you can sort of do what you want

990
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,800
to do.
And, you know, their films

991
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:50,200
weren't hugely expensive and
they usually did OK business

992
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,800
and, and also actually they did
well internationally, or at

993
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,560
least there was, you know, an
audience to some extent broadly

994
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,360
globally.
And he made quite a few movies

995
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,440
at that point, right, With that,
with that option.

996
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,280
He's a great example of like,
you know, a movie a year for for

997
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,160
and only really slowing down
now.

998
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,520
He's now 90.
But you know, when things got

999
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,920
trickier with the sort of
allegations against him.

1000
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:17,240
But you know, he's a very sort
of and I think the the the

1001
00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:21,440
director of Lost Boys, Joel
Schumacher worked in costume

1002
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,280
many years ago on on some Woody
Allen movies.

1003
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,240
And he sort of said, actually,
Woody Allen was very good at

1004
00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:27,280
telling me, you know, I was
saying I wanted to be as I

1005
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:28,680
wanted to write a script and
direct myself.

1006
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,080
And then and he said Woody Allen
was really good saying, OK, you

1007
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,720
have to finish the script you're
writing, you know, to move on in

1008
00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:36,160
life, you know, if you want to
do that, you've got to finish

1009
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:37,840
the script.
And he did finish the script and

1010
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:39,880
at some point became a
screenwriter and a director and

1011
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,080
had a, you know, a good career.
Yeah.

1012
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,600
And I think Allen's a good
example of someone you know, a

1013
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,120
very good work ethic.
Yeah, incredible, incredible

1014
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,560
work ethic and, and, and I guess
you know, and you have two

1015
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,160
schools of thought.
You have the the school of

1016
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,560
thought that says you got to
really embody and be the

1017
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,120
character and you have to find
the project that speaks to you

1018
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,040
and you got to find, you know,
the perfect story and the

1019
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,720
perfect script that with the
real voice, that kind of voice

1020
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:09,120
that you're looking for any
people that listen, I'm here to

1021
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:10,120
act and that's what I'm going to
do.

1022
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,360
I'm going to make it work.
You know, what's what are some

1023
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,200
films that that have shaped or
forged Europe or your

1024
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,480
perspective or appreciation of a
film?

1025
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,040
What are some what are some of
the iconic movies for you?

1026
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,640
So one of the my pretty favorite
film makers, probably not from

1027
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,960
the 1940s and 50s, mainly
working in black and white.

1028
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,120
So we'll be Billy Wilder.
Who?

1029
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:30,680
Made some recommendations
actually, by the way, I would

1030
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:31,960
love to.
I would love to look into them.

1031
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,000
So Billy Wilder, you know, who
made some like a hot the

1032
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,120
apartment, Double Indemnity,
Sunset Blvd.

1033
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:40,560
So he's probably my favorite
film maker.

1034
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,840
And in those movies you have
double Indemnity is a film noir

1035
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,280
from the 1944 or something like
that.

1036
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,720
Sound like the Hot is a, you
know, fast, a farce.

1037
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,760
Sunset Blvd. is a, you know,
sort of black comedy about

1038
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,520
Hollywood.
And the Apartment is, is a great

1039
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,760
sort of romantic comedy with a
kind of Christmas New Year

1040
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,520
setting, even from from when
1960 of Jack Levinson and Sheree

1041
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,440
MacLean.
So I think I like Wilder's sort

1042
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,760
of, he's smart.
His, you know, his movies are

1043
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,120
sort of bittersweet.
They're funny, but they're kind

1044
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,120
of, but they're not silly.
Well, sound like Hot is very

1045
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,400
silly, but it's very funny and
they're they're charming.

1046
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,240
And so I like him and I think
he's a very elegant film maker

1047
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:22,840
when he's when he was very good
in in the 40s and 50s, as with

1048
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,280
an elegant film makers.
So you kind of admire the

1049
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,280
storytelling and how how how
well it comes across.

1050
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,360
How would you, how would you
describe an elegant film if

1051
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,360
someone like, didn't understand
that you know, someone's

1052
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,440
listening and they're watching,
you know, Marvel and

1053
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,320
Transformers and you know,
Stranger Things?

1054
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,280
What?
What How would you describe like

1055
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,560
an elegantly made film that like
things that they should be

1056
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,680
looking out for or that they
could be more intentional about

1057
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,520
when watching?
So I suppose I don't know Marvel

1058
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,240
or or Transformers or strange
things very well, so I can't

1059
00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:53,880
come in on those.
But I'd say in terms of the

1060
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,920
storytelling that where and it
could happen in in prose or in a

1061
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,440
movie where where you where you
don't go, Oh, that was so

1062
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,080
obvious or, or that was kind of
like, oh, that's kind of dumb.

1063
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:04,920
Why does the character do that?
I don't believe that.

1064
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,520
And if there's a revelation, you
go, oh, oh, well, yeah, I didn't

1065
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:11,600
see that coming.
But it's obviously it's obvious

1066
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,880
now.
So this that kind of like, you

1067
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,080
know, sort of, and it's, or if
you have to kind of feed the

1068
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,920
inflation to the audience, it's
not done in a kind of now we're

1069
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:25,720
going to, you know, shove, shove
some information down your

1070
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:27,120
throats.
It's, it's, it's kind of

1071
00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:29,600
there's, there are ways to try
and sort of, you know, do the

1072
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,400
exposition so that the kind of
it's, it's, it's done with a

1073
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:38,360
delicate touch.
And and while it was was very

1074
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,640
good at those sort of things
when you know, at his best in

1075
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:48,200
the 1940s and 1950s.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1076
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,560
I think so.
So you, so you're going to

1077
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,280
equate or I guess kind of have a
relationship between elegance

1078
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:54,880
and nuance and subtlety and
nuance.

1079
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:56,760
Yeah, yeah.
That you can pass along.

1080
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:58,480
And I think that that's also
done.

1081
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,000
I think it's a more effective
way of storytelling.

1082
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,600
It's a far more effective way.
There's, I showed my class the

1083
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:09,920
movie Argo about, you know, the
1980 hostage hostage situation

1084
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,960
in Iran.
And, and then I, I, I'm doing

1085
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,800
hopefully soon a podcast, the
gentleman called that, that runs

1086
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:21,480
a website called Spy Culture and
it talks about the government's

1087
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,520
affiliation affiliation,
association with different

1088
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,240
films.
And, and he had a whole article

1089
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,320
that we read after Argo about
the CI as involvement in the

1090
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,960
actual making of the film.
And, and the way that they kind

1091
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,720
of insert themselves to make
them look as good, you know,

1092
00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:39,080
make them look as good as
possible.

1093
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:44,480
And it was done especially in
the film Argo, at least to me,

1094
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:50,680
it felt a lot more nuance, a
lot, a lot more subtle than a

1095
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,280
movie that I that movies that
I've seen more recently where it

1096
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,480
almost feels like there are
slogans that have to be injected

1097
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:03,600
into particular films that, you
know, that are almost like a

1098
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,640
toll, like a toll to be made by
the studio is like, hey, you

1099
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,000
know, you know, you can do
whatever you want, but the toll

1100
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,400
to get in here is you have to
throw this, this and this

1101
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,080
message in.
And even if the film was about

1102
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,680
that particular message, you
know, you got, you got to make

1103
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:18,360
it blanket.
You got to make, you got to make

1104
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,840
it out there.
And so I guess so I guess we're,

1105
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,000
yeah, it does feel like we've
lost some of that.

1106
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,720
I think there are still some
great film makers that do, yeah,

1107
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,360
kind of focus on that.
Have you Have you seen many

1108
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,480
Damien Chazelle films?
The Whiplash or La La Land or

1109
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,120
Babylon?
I've only seen Whiplash and La

1110
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:37,600
La Land.
I've not seen.

1111
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:39,960
I've not seen Babylon.
Yeah.

1112
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:41,560
Yeah.
I'm curious what your thoughts

1113
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,600
on it would because I think it
is based on 1920s Hollywood as

1114
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,440
as Hollywood was transitioning
from black and white with color.

1115
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,400
I should see.
I should see Babylon.

1116
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:54,640
I watched it in in theaters and
I hate to say I wanted to like

1117
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:58,960
it so, so badly and I couldn't
bring myself to and I don't know

1118
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,920
why, but I thought that he was,
I thought that from Whiplash

1119
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,280
Nala land that he was a really,
really, really remarkable

1120
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,280
director.
And apparently the story, his

1121
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:13,040
story is that he had wanted to
make La La Land 1st and no one

1122
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,640
would fund it.
And so and, and so he made a

1123
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,200
much lower budget whiplash and
and then, you know.

1124
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:21,440
That sounds reasonable.
Yeah, Yeah.

1125
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I guess it also goes to like

1126
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:25,720
what you were saying earlier
about the different ways to get

1127
00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:28,800
films done is sometimes you got
to work hard and just make it

1128
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,520
yourself or find another project
that's smaller budget until you

1129
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,040
prove yourself, you know, and
show yourself that it happens.

1130
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,160
I have a friend who's who's a
playwright in London and, and,

1131
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:39,000
you know, her first play was,
you know, had too many

1132
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,400
characters and too many, too
many scene changes and and so

1133
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:42,400
on.
Said, look, you know, this

1134
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,200
station career, just write a
play about two people in one

1135
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:45,720
room, which is what she's gone
and done.

1136
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:47,960
Yeah.
And, and it's on in London next

1137
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:48,320
month.
So.

1138
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:49,560
Yeah.
There you go.

1139
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,800
Beautiful.
Wow, really cool, really cool.

1140
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,120
What do you think?
And, and, and do you think that

1141
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,880
there's people all the audience
looks for something different in

1142
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,560
a novel versus a film or that
they should be kind of the the

1143
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,560
trajectory of the storytelling
should kind of be similar?

1144
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:07,680
Well, I think 1 interesting
thing about that is obviously is

1145
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:12,880
how how film, TV has changed
novels like the storytelling

1146
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,480
that we now now we've seen films
and television and that has

1147
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,080
changed our novelists, right?
Do do audiences look for

1148
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,400
different things in film as
opposed to on on the page?

1149
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,320
And what would you think about?
That well, I suppose the one

1150
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,240
great difference is, you know,
on the page, you are, you are

1151
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,720
well, you can be far more
intimate with, with the

1152
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:35,200
character.
You can hear, you can hear the

1153
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,760
character's thoughts in a way
that on on screen people talk,

1154
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:40,440
but that isn't necessarily what
they're thinking.

1155
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,560
You know, that's just what they
choose, what they're choosing to

1156
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:49,600
say or not to say to somebody.
So, so the, the struggle that,

1157
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:54,240
that the screen always has is,
is how to convey people's

1158
00:56:54,240 --> 00:56:57,480
feelings and people's thoughts
when you, when you've only got

1159
00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:59,960
the external, you haven't got
the internal voice.

1160
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:06,800
But film can do great things and
so can literature and, and you

1161
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,440
know, you know, I enjoy both and
I hope other people enjoy both.

1162
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:11,640
What other what other film I
want to do?

1163
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:16,200
I mean, I, I, I, the, the case
that always comes to my mind is

1164
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,600
Harry Potter, because I had, I,
I growing up.

1165
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,400
I have devoured those books over
and over and over again.

1166
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,240
And the films have let me down
time after time after time.

1167
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,280
At least I felt they couldn't
keep up with the, they couldn't

1168
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,560
keep up with my imagination from
the words on the page, like you

1169
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,760
said.
And there's so much going on in

1170
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:40,280
the background of these young
adults or teenagers with kids

1171
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,960
minds that are, you know, that,
that that cannot be described,

1172
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,360
you know, acted out or
described, I guess, on screen.

1173
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,600
I'm really, really curious how
HBO is going to do this because

1174
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,440
HBO has a wonderful history.
With the TV series.

1175
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,280
Yeah, of the TV series, correct.
And they have a wonderful

1176
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:03,120
history of really packing a lot
of emotion and character into

1177
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:04,840
films when they have the time
and space for it.

1178
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:08,200
Going back to that theme of not
giving the audience what they

1179
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:12,440
wanted watching The Sopranos and
it went, I don't know if you

1180
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,680
watched it, but there was a
scene where they were Tony, the

1181
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:17,280
main characters therapist was
raped.

1182
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:22,120
And, and she has the opportunity
to tell Tony who the person that

1183
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,480
did it was.
And, and you can see, and you

1184
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,560
know, this again goes to what we
were just talking about.

1185
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,280
You can see in her mind the
conflict the whole time.

1186
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,040
You can see that she's chewing
back words that she wants to

1187
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,640
say.
And and then the and then the

1188
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:38,960
and then David Chase does not
give it to you.

1189
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,600
He does not like you have.
And she's and Tony says, Are you

1190
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,520
sure that nothing that
everything's OK?

1191
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:45,200
And she looks at him and she
looks at the audience.

1192
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:47,280
She looks at the camera and she
says yes.

1193
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:51,040
And then the and the screen goes
black and and everyone was let

1194
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,160
down and everyone was frustrated
because all you wanted was this

1195
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:57,160
poor woman to get this, to get
her justice.

1196
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,440
And, and sometimes in life, you
don't get justice, especially if

1197
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,320
you want to be moral.
Sometimes, sometimes if you want

1198
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,200
to play by the games, by the
system, then you don't get

1199
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,760
justice.
That was a good, bold, a bold

1200
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,880
decision from, you know, David
Chase there not to give the

1201
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,120
audience what it wanted, but
what he felt was right for the,

1202
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:13,960
for the character, for the
situation.

1203
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:15,360
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's what that's

1204
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:16,920
what makes a great.
That's what I think makes a

1205
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:19,800
great creator is, is being
willing to take risks and have

1206
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:21,800
your audience be upset at you,
but then understand that what

1207
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:23,120
you're trying to do is make
something great for them.

1208
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:26,080
He's making a great new
apparent, I'm really hopeful, a

1209
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:30,000
new series on the MK Ultra
experiments that were going on

1210
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:32,880
in the 70s or 60s, seventies in
America.

1211
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:35,520
OK.
Which should be a lot of fun,

1212
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:38,040
but.
When you were talking about

1213
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,640
elegance before and one other
film came to mind of a recent

1214
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,400
more recent film for 1012 years
ago.

1215
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,560
It's a Polish film called Ida
IIDA at the name of the female

1216
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:53,640
character by Pavel Pavlikovsky.
And I think it's very elegant

1217
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:58,720
because it's so pared back in
terms of how much information it

1218
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:00,280
gives.
It gives you only the minimal

1219
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,240
information and often many
scenes are just like 11 long

1220
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:05,800
shot.
I don't find it very mannered

1221
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:11,960
and I just kind of admire it for
how how how compact it manages

1222
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,800
to be.
So I would recommend that It

1223
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:17,040
isn't black and white.
So just pupils might not, might

1224
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:19,760
not have had the patience for
it, but it's from the past 15

1225
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,600
years.
Again, I, I think, I think it's

1226
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:24,800
just preparing in the right way.
It's just getting your head in

1227
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,600
the right space.
And because some of the, you

1228
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,120
know, and I, I'll go through
phases depending on what I'm

1229
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,560
going through my life months at
a time where I can't watch a

1230
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,320
particular genre.
I'm just not, you know, I'm

1231
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,760
just, I'm just not there and I'm
sitting down and, and I've been,

1232
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:39,960
I've been like that with
comedies.

1233
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:41,720
I've been wanting to watch
comedies.

1234
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:44,120
I've been consuming a lot of
heavier material that are a

1235
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:49,280
little bit more philosophical, a
little bit more, tend to be a

1236
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:53,400
little more serious, and I can't
get myself to sit down and watch

1237
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:54,880
a comedy.
Even though I want to take the

1238
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:56,680
burden off and I do want to
lighten up.

1239
01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,920
I have to kind of get myself
back into that, into that zone.

1240
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:02,560
But that's OK because there's,
there's like that that I think

1241
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:05,520
it was, it was Umberto echo or
someone like that who said this

1242
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:07,720
thing about, you know, it's fine
to have a lot of books in your

1243
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:09,680
house you haven't read because
it, you know, because there's a

1244
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,040
time and a place for everything.
I'm going to come to that book

1245
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:14,640
at a certain point.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1246
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,840
I, I, I've been, I, I just had
to order 5 new books because I

1247
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,000
went to my bookshelf a couple of
times and I couldn't find

1248
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:25,520
anything, anything new.
But yeah, I'm always looking to,

1249
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,000
to learn new things in from a
different angle.

1250
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:29,640
And so I'm really excited to
check out your book.

1251
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:33,280
How did you so it was, it was,
it was, it was it was re

1252
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:36,080
released, I guess, or worked on
2023.

1253
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:38,520
I saw.
Would you add on to it?

1254
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:42,920
We updated the, these kind of
the story about Woody Allen and,

1255
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:47,440
you know, and about Harvey
Weinstein and Johnny Depp and

1256
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:48,800
Amber Heard.
So that's one of those sort of

1257
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:50,600
because the book was originally
called the Dark History of

1258
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:51,760
Hollywood.
So it was kind of it was the

1259
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,600
Commission was to look more at
the scandal than just general

1260
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:57,080
Hollywood.
My, my own interest is general

1261
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,640
Hollywood including scandal, but
just how it all worked.

1262
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,160
And so we had to update those
stories or include the Johnny

1263
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:09,080
Depp and Amber Heard story,
which hadn't been in the earlier

1264
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:11,720
edition.
Have you watched the Netflix

1265
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:13,680
documentary about that or the
series about that?

1266
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:16,320
About Johnny Depp.
Johnny Depp and Amber Heard.

1267
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:18,000
No, I'm not.
I've not seen that.

1268
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:20,160
So what's what was your
conclusion in the book?

1269
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:22,440
What was your perception of the
relationship and the conflict

1270
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:25,240
and?
I suppose one thing is I'm not

1271
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:26,640
hugely interested in their
relationship.

1272
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:32,480
So all I wrote about, I mean, I
wrote about, I've just read it

1273
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,480
today.
I wrote sort of 300 words, just

1274
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:41,080
sort of up to kind of writing.
You know how he sued the UK

1275
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:44,320
newspaper for libel because they
called him a wife beater?

1276
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,280
I think it was he lost the case.
You know how he was dropped from

1277
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:52,600
the Fantastic B series after the
second film, I think it was, or

1278
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:58,000
the first film.
And then he did win a defamation

1279
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,000
case against his ex-wife.
So there's a bit on both sides.

1280
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,120
And I kind of wondered, you
know, will his, you know, at

1281
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:05,040
that point he was approaching
60.

1282
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:08,640
He'd, you know, Pirates of the
Caribbean had run its course, it

1283
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:13,640
wasn't going to be any any any
more of the fantastic beast

1284
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:15,920
films, you know.
Would his career come back?

1285
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,440
None of his other kind of films,
the more serious films have have

1286
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,680
had made as a critical or
commercial impact.

1287
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:26,640
I think he was in something
recently that was getting some

1288
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:30,880
more attention at a festival.
But he hasn't really yet come

1289
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:32,400
back.
But maybe he will.

1290
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:34,440
Yeah, and he had a really
interesting.

1291
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:37,640
He's kind of, there's a lot of
actors like this where he starts

1292
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:40,840
his career with a lot of fun and
really unique kind of small

1293
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:43,080
indie and character driven
films.

1294
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:45,600
And then and then and then he
kind of, and then he and then

1295
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,800
with Pirates exploded into
another genre of film.

1296
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:51,920
But I would have, I would love
to see him go back to to to that

1297
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,160
the kind of earlier movies that
he was making, like Blow or

1298
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,320
What's Eating Gilbert Grape or
any of those type of films.

1299
01:03:58,320 --> 01:03:59,760
Yeah.
Gilbert is a lovely film and

1300
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:05,240
also I was like that film where
it's a mob film with him and

1301
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,000
Pacino.
Yes, Donnie Brasco.

1302
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:09,800
Donnie Brasco I really like.
Yeah.

1303
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:11,160
So yeah.
Excellent.

1304
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,040
Great book too.
Yeah, great book.

1305
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:13,840
Too.
I don't know.

1306
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:15,120
Yeah.
That was fun.

1307
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:17,400
How do you feel about separating
the art from the artist?

1308
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:19,600
Yeah.
I mean, that's something, you

1309
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:23,520
know, when you think about, you
know, with someone like with

1310
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:28,200
Woody Allen or something.
Yeah, I think I'm kind of all

1311
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:29,840
right.
One thing is I kind of don't

1312
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:31,120
really know what the truth is in
these stories.

1313
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:35,520
So, you know, with Woody Allen,
there's allegations he's, you

1314
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:37,960
know, lost custody of what the
children when they was younger

1315
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,080
or lost access to them.
But he was never charged with

1316
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,800
any himself.
So there's allegation, account,

1317
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:44,560
allegation.
But, you know, he was allowed to

1318
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:46,360
carry on making films because as
far as the courts could see,

1319
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:51,160
there was no issue here.
So I think I'm kind of OK

1320
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,440
separating the artists from the
art.

1321
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:58,440
Yeah.
And also because it's sort of

1322
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:01,000
more interested in what the art
is than than who the artist is.

1323
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,920
So I'm interested in what the
movie is, what the book is.

1324
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:09,440
Like, I think it's, you know,
I'm not really sure what I've

1325
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:10,840
thought of.
I haven't thought this all the

1326
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,000
way through yet, but Kevin
Spacey was an incredible talent

1327
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:16,760
and has not worked in in a very
long time.

1328
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:19,880
And I don't think again, as far
as the legal case goes, I don't

1329
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:21,600
think he was ever convicted of
anything.

1330
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,120
I could be wrong.
I don't, I, I haven't, I haven't

1331
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:28,760
been as you know, intuitive.
But these are it's just another

1332
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:33,880
example of someone that is just
an enormous talent that right or

1333
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:37,960
wrong reputation gets, you know,
and very, very well could be

1334
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:39,640
that whatever the allegations
were were correct.

1335
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,640
It could be that they weren't.
Again, how, you know, like if

1336
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:44,880
you're a studio, you know how
much you're going to let that

1337
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,920
affect your decision.
And I guess the answer is a lot

1338
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:49,920
you know.
Yeah, and I think there are

1339
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:51,440
certainly cases.
I mean, in the book we could

1340
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:54,160
look at look at Fatty Arbuckle
was in a comedy star in the 19

1341
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:57,640
or 20s, what it was.
And, you know, his career ended

1342
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:02,560
and you kind of felt that over a
scandal where I think think, you

1343
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:05,640
know, he was innocent
ultimately, but that the, the

1344
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:11,440
studios, you know, the whiff of
scandal, they washed their hands

1345
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,960
of him, you know, but actually
rather they didn't stand by him.

1346
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:19,560
Yeah, so so.
You can look at that point of.

1347
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:21,760
View and think, well, the
studios you know, should have

1348
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,240
had more backbone.
Of course, there are many other

1349
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:26,720
situations such as Harvey
Weinstein where you think will

1350
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:33,080
actually, you know, he was the
bully, bully in his own company

1351
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:37,840
and and people weren't weren't
blowing the whistle on him and

1352
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,240
he was getting away with it.
Yeah, yeah.

1353
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:45,200
And yeah, man.
And also, it's such a shame

1354
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:48,080
because he made such great
movies and you can't really, you

1355
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:50,640
can't really blacklist anything
that has Harvey Weinstein's name

1356
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:52,200
on it.
If you go through, if you look

1357
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,760
at his, his IMDb or, you know,
the collection of films that

1358
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:59,160
he's made, I mean, there's at
least that he's been associated

1359
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:00,440
with.
And again, that's another

1360
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:05,320
question is, and we know that at
this point, for example, in

1361
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:08,600
today's world that almost
everyone's name kind of gets

1362
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:10,360
thrown on, slapped on as
producers.

1363
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:12,840
You know, everyone, everyone,
everyone's a producer.

1364
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:14,480
If they had any, you know, if
they looked at the script,

1365
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:15,840
they're a producer.
If they, you know, if they

1366
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:18,680
talked to the actor about it,
you know, on set, they're a

1367
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:23,120
producer.
If someone you know, I don't, I

1368
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:26,480
don't know how much I you think
I don't know the involvement to

1369
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:30,680
the degree that he was part of
all these films that even if you

1370
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:33,040
know, you decided that you don't
want anything to do with Harvey

1371
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,080
Weinstein, that has to do with
Dead Poets Society or any or

1372
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:39,440
every decision that Miramax,
that Miramax made makes.

1373
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:44,040
You know, I mean, I think with
Weinstein, you know, someone's,

1374
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:46,760
I think someone said, you know,
he likes to think that he was

1375
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:50,640
creative.
And yeah, he was initially,

1376
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:53,640
initially he was responsible for
for distributing kind of often

1377
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:58,840
like non-us films in the US and
he was very good at marketing

1378
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:02,560
and selling those films to the
US market and then kind of moved

1379
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:03,720
more into producing things
himself.

1380
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:05,600
But there was always that sort
of allegation that you're always

1381
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:08,880
not really producing, but he's,
you know, can find the finance

1382
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:12,880
and for and very, very good at
the awards season marketing and

1383
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:14,600
then push.
Yeah.

1384
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:16,840
Push is a good word for you,
right.

1385
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:22,520
As far as as far as the way they
go about it goes, Yeah,

1386
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:27,680
definitely.
Yeah, yeah.

1387
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:29,240
With again.
So that doesn't have anything to

1388
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:31,920
do with him making the film.
You know, that doesn't have

1389
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:34,200
anything to do with, you know,
not watching the film because

1390
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:36,840
he's, because he pushed it for,
for an award, because he pushed

1391
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:40,960
it for, you know, for a Golden
Globe or for I, I don't know

1392
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,240
what that would have to do with.
No, he doesn't make me think any

1393
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:47,040
differently about, say, the
formula, The Crying Game, you

1394
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:53,640
know, you know, British Irish
film from early 1990s, you know,

1395
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:55,279
I just wouldn't want to work
with him.

1396
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:57,160
Yeah, yeah.
I can't imagine.

1397
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:58,960
I wouldn't want to work with a
lot of people in Hollywood.

1398
01:08:59,319 --> 01:09:02,040
That's it.
But and I think that that's

1399
01:09:02,319 --> 01:09:03,760
that, that's another
institution.

1400
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:06,840
I think that there has been kind
of reforming and kind of

1401
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:10,399
restructuring itself.
Have you, have you read into or

1402
01:09:10,399 --> 01:09:14,359
have you had any thoughts on
Disney and open AI's recent

1403
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:17,680
business transaction together?
I I've barely followed that.

1404
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,279
I know nothing about that so.
It's fascinating.

1405
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:25,319
Disney invested a billion
dollars into open AI and gave

1406
01:09:25,319 --> 01:09:29,880
them the rights to use their
characters in AI generated films

1407
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,840
for the next three years.
And Disney is historically

1408
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,399
extremely protective of their
IP.

1409
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:40,680
And so it's a really curious
decision, but it's also happens

1410
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:43,560
to work out very well time wise
because I think that this next

1411
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:47,479
year Bob Iger plans on stepping
down and, and, and I, you know,

1412
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:48,840
we've heard that plenty of times
already.

1413
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:50,240
He's stepped down before he's
come back, yeah.

1414
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:52,920
Exactly right, exactly.
So it's funny, yeah.

1415
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:56,360
And following the Disney saga,
there's an incredible book I

1416
01:09:56,360 --> 01:10:00,240
read called Disney War by James
Stewart, I believe is author.

1417
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:03,560
And it's about the, excuse me,
the history of the company from

1418
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:08,000
the 80s to the early 2000s and,
and the, and the corporate

1419
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:12,400
battle and you know, the, the
corporate inner workings of the

1420
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:15,680
company.
And the biggest issue that

1421
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:20,080
Disney has had since Walt Disney
himself is that people that run

1422
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:23,720
the, the ship have a very
difficult time finding or

1423
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:26,920
creating successors.
And so I think that that when

1424
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:31,760
Bob Iger made this deal, I
would, I would speculate as

1425
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:35,200
someone who is speculating and
just reading and listening and,

1426
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:38,920
you know, following on the side
that there's a risk that he can

1427
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:40,960
take with the company because
he's not going to be responsible

1428
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:43,360
for the repercussions.
And you know, that's going to be

1429
01:10:43,480 --> 01:10:46,520
same way that Bob Shaypeck took
over with during COVID for that

1430
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:49,600
for those couple of years while,
you know, he kind of watched him

1431
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:54,480
fail and then step back in.
You know, I'm very I, I this is

1432
01:10:54,480 --> 01:10:58,880
a big enough decision that it
could be him just saying, let

1433
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,680
me, I don't want this to tarnish
my reputation, but let's see how

1434
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:07,720
the future looks with this, you
know, anyway, Karen, this is a

1435
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:09,280
ton of fun.
I really appreciate you taking

1436
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:11,840
the time to coming on for coming
on and especially again on New

1437
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:14,840
Year's Day.
And I really enjoy talking to

1438
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:15,880
you.
This is really wonderful.

1439
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:17,400
And thank you so much for your
work.

1440
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:18,560
And I'm really excited to read
your book.

1441
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:20,120
OK.
We're welcome.

1442
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:21,520
You're.
Welcome.

1443
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:22,840
Thank you very much for coming.
Take care.

1444
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:24,240
Nice meeting.
You bye, bye.