#136 Dave Davies / Economic History of Grateful Dead / A Decade of Shows / Entertainment Finance

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and we're Live.
Dave Davis.

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Davis, welcome.
How are you?

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I'm great Efren, how are you?
I'm doing great.

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I am excited to talk to you and
I really appreciate the quick

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turn around time.
I reached out to you on Sunday,

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today's Wednesday, and I already
started the book and and I, you

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know, I reached out to you
because I saw that you wrote

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this great book called Economic
History of the Grateful Dead.

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And this was the day after I
found I discovered your book the

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day after Bob Weir died,
unfortunately, and I had to just

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reach out and I wanted to kind
of have a laid back podcast talk

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to you about some of your dead
memories, writing the book, what

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you learned about writing the
book and the, you know, the

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perspective that you had.
And, and then and then the bonus

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feature is that your entire
professional career, other than

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this great work of, of
information has been an industry

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that I'm particularly fascinated
and that's the entertainment

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finance.
So I'm excited to talk with you.

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Well.
Let's do it.

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OK, beautiful.
So take which, where, where do

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you want to start?
You want to start talking about

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your, I guess your introduction
to the dead and their music and

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some of your experiences.
You want to start with writing

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the book.
How do you want to start this?

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Yeah, I I'll just do it
chronologically.

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So when, when I was 16 in 1975
was the first time I saw Jerry

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Garcia play.
And where?

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Were you?
Where were you living?

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I was living in in Andover, MA,
right outside Boston and in the

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starting in 1976, I, I saw the
Grateful Dead over over mostly a

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10 year period.
I saw them 82 times.

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I I kind of stopped in the mid
80s because it wasn't as fun,

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but times over over 10 years.
I bet, I bet, I bet.

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I've heard that from a lot of
people.

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I heard that from the mid 80s
especially because it got so, so

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packed and, and, and the venues
got so enormous that it became

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harder to maintain that kind of
feel.

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From for their last ten years,
the dead were like almost every

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year they were the top the top
box office attraction in the

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United States, so.
Yeah, yeah.

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Well, I mean, nothing really
gets more authentic, especially

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like as you get these hints and
whispers and leftovers from the

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60s and 70s.
You know, like I think that that

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kind of became romanticized and
became this whole little culture

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that people wanted to partake
in, whether it was, you know,

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quote UN quote authentic or not.
But you know, people were want

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to participate in it.
Well, Jerry was still there.

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So I think it's authentic that
whole period, the last just that

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they they were so tremendous
when I was younger in in the

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late 70s and the early 80s.
It's just they were so

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tremendous.
I didn't even want to see them

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so much after they got huge.
And plus I saw, I saw the

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Grateful Dead play in places of
2004 thousand people you know,

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instead of 50,000 and 70,000.
Yeah, it's those those those

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those smaller shows are always
better.

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I went to, I mean, I went, I, I,
I prefer to go to, I live in

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Hollywood, FL, South Florida and
there's a Hard Rock venue here

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with about 5 to 7000 seats
maybe.

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And the acts there are top tier
acts that typically would go

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around to stadiums.
But it's a real privilege to get

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to see whoever that, whoever it
is play there.

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You know, I've seen, I took my
wife to see John Fogerty there.

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We, I, I know that that
Springsteen was playing there,

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but his tickets were like 1200
bucks apiece just to walk in the

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door.
And that's the that's the

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problem with having these
limited venues with such a big

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act.
Yeah, but a lot of big acts like

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to play at a small venue if they
can, and especially back to

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that.
Yeah, it was.

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There's, there were all kinds of
interesting ideas like the, the,

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the dead between when they
started in 65 and then by the

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time 71 rolled around, which is
pretty early, they're, they were

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getting 5000 bucks a night and
playing places like the Felmore

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East and that kind of thing.
And so already they were making

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was what they thought at the
time was a really good amount of

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money.
I mean, you can't even compare

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what bands make now, you know,
like Taylor Swift tour or Bruno

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Mars tour or whatever.
You can't even compare that to

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how the world was back in the
70s and 80s.

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Yeah, because we found we, we
have never ending ways, excuse

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me, of sucking value out of
consumers.

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So, and, and we became much more
creative with our ability to, to

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really, I guess, merchandise.
And you make that point in the

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book about how the dead really,
you know, the whole, the whole

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entertainment industry was
really at his infancy.

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And the dead were Trail Blazers
and so many different ways of,

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you know, T-shirts and merch and
mailing lists and, and all this.

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And people would camp out by the
concerts and, and have these

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booths with it sell their stick
and, and all this cute stuff.

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That was all really to
encourage.

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And you know, actually something
I meant to, I meant to ask that

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I've always and curious about,
you know, I go to I go to Dead

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Cover band or I go see Dark Star
or J Rad or something like that.

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And they sell their concert
posters for, you know, 50 bucks

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apiece or their T-shirts for 45
bucks.

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Now I know I sound like I'm
complaining, but that almost

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sounds convoluted almost to the
spirit of what the Dead were

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with so much free stuff and so
much family.

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Or I almost felt like a family
more than a business.

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But I then I think back to,
well, if the concert tickets

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were, I don't know, $20 a ticket
pre inflation in the 1960s and

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1970s, that's not very cheap to
go to a concert, right?

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No.
No, no, they weren't 20.

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They were.
They were.

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They weren't $20 till the 90s.
Wow, OK but but Even so, let's

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say in the 60s and 70s or
selling tickets for three 4-5

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bucks.
Yeah, for sure.

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In the 60s and when I first saw
the dead in 7677, I like $6,

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seven dollars.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And So what do you think that
would be to people today post

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inflate, you know, to to kind of
match with match with inflation?

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You think that'd be like paying
40-50 bucks?

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You know, even if there were
four or five times as much, I

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mean, that's what I mean.
It's just that tickets are just

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so expensive to see any band
nowadays.

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And then on that, we didn't have
things like, you know, service

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fees, yadda, yadda, yadda fees.
Yeah, I have a friend that's in

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the ticket industry and he says
that he goes, you want, you want

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to open up a world of
corruption, You want to open up

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a can of worms, slide down,
slide into the ticket, the

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ticket business.
He says that he knows of some

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big companies that personally
buy tickets to concerts as the

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brokers and resell them as
ticket sellers.

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And I mean, that's like the S&P
holding stocks and then deciding

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who, you know, inside any kind
of trade, you know?

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That's well, the music business
has always been known as like

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somewhat shady finances and all
kinds of issues.

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Like, I mean, there's a, there's
a good, there's a good story in

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my book about there was a
concert up in Maine in 1980 in

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Lewiston, ME.
It was the biggest concert of

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the year.
And the Dead got paid $100,000,

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which was the most they got paid
at any show that year.

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And I think it drew 25,000 at 10
bucks or something 25,000.

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But it was there were two
promoters of this.

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One was the local Maine promoter
who was just a normal guy.

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And the other promoter was this
guy that it turned out later was

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a huge marijuana supplier in
Maine who would fly in in

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private airplanes from the
Caribbean in Britain.

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And that's what finances that
concert.

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And the the promoters lost like
$75,000 on that concert.

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And later on, they reported that
they had lost $100,000 when they

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were when they were arrested.
Oh, yeah.

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We, we, we've laundered the
money into rock concerts like

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the Grateful Dead and Lewis that
made.

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And it's like it's fascinating
that that the, the kind of

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people that were involved in the
music business even back then.

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So.
Yeah.

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Yeah, there was.
I mean, that's the entire

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entertainment world was really
filled with financial

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corruption.
I've read a couple of books

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about that, about Hollywood's
studio heads taking creative

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liberties with with budgets and
such like and such.

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But yeah, I what's so funny is
it feels to me that even though

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the dead by almost unanimous
accounts, you know, really were

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not manipulative, especially
with money in any way, shape or

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form, and they prefer to lose
money or get ripped off rather

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than participate in that.
Then, you know, even though they

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themselves could kind of keep
their hands clean or say that

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they never did anything wrong.
I'm sure there's a lot of weird

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stuff going on, going on all
around them, right?

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There was, but I mean, they were
smart as early as they could to

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partner with people that they've
been working with for like a

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long time.
So jump here was the East Coast,

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northeast New England New Jersey
promoter.

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What was his name?
John Shear.

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John Shear got you.
Yeah.

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Still around a little bit, but
Sean did, they did the, they,

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they, they, they promoted all
the shows outside of the Bay

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Area starting in 7576 for like a
20 year period.

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And they, I looked at, when I
was able to look at documents

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for like the Grateful Dead's
concert economics, individual

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shows and all this stuff like
that.

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They were so good at being
precise and so fair and honest.

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So like it was unusual in the
music business because Scheer

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and, and Monarch Entertainment,
they, they, they were, they were

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honest.
And so the Dead did business

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with them for 20 years.
And it was like it was, it was

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basically the split of the
revenue that shows between the

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Dead and the promoters.
And they were their promoters

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outside of the area.
So, so that, that that was a

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great experience for them.
And I, and I give them a lot of

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in my, in my book, I talk about
them a lot about how how Monarch

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was just so good at being fair
and came up with creative ideas

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and booked him in the right size
venues and all this.

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And then there was a known famed
promoter in the Bay Area named

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Bill Graham.
The.

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Legendary The legendary Bill
Graham.

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Legendary guy.
And there's a lot of evidence

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that Bill kind of ripped off the
bed a little bit.

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Yeah, well, he he would justify
it, but he did OK.

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So, but Bill also was so good at
promoting them that they get to

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play in bigger venues.
They would make more money.

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So I think he would.
And you know, I'm getting these

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guys a lot of money.
I'm going to take my piece.

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So I mean, they would have a
little dispute every once in a

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while, the debt management and,
and, and Bill Graham.

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But it's hard for me to call him
like unethical or compared to

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other people in the business or,
you know, or ripping them off,

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even things like that, because
he also made them a lot of money

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by the way he promoted them and
marketed them in the Bay Area.

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Like I moved to Berkeley in
1980.

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And so by first, you know, 40
times I saw the Grateful Dead

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was on the East Coast prior to
that between 76 and 80 and 80.

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And then all the shows I saw
after that were in, in either in

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San Francisco, Oakland or
Berkeley for the my last, you

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know, 44 shows or whatever.
They would play so often.

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And he knew exactly how many
times they could play and where

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they'd sell out.
And like, so, I mean, I can't

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really give him any grief, even
though he, you know, he might

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have fudged some creative.
Liberties.

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So yeah, yeah, I want to hear, I
want to hear a couple of things

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go back a little bit first.
So first of all, how do your

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parents feel or your family feel
about your newfound fascination

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with this, with this band?
And I know that not everyone

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probably was thrilled that their
kids hopping off to, especially

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with the reputation that
preceded the Grateful Dead.

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What were you like?
What, what was the reactions

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like?
What were these concerts like,

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especially in the East Coast in
the in the mid 70s?

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Because I know that you started
showing up, right?

222
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,360
The band took a quote UN quote
break for 75 pretty much.

223
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,840
Yeah.
And and then as soon as they got

224
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,800
back on, and I think that was
those were, I believe, according

225
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,320
to Dennis McNally, the coke
years, that's when everyone is

226
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,480
really getting fond of coke on
the scene as opposed to

227
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,720
psychedelics.
Did that have a difference in

228
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,880
the in the concerts and the
performances?

229
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,560
Did you get that it was a
tangible different feel of the

230
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:48,560
crowd?
What was that?

231
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:49,920
What was all that like at the
time?

232
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:57,120
OK, so #175 I went away to prep
school outside Boston my parents

233
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:04,160
would be and starting the next
77, I started going to College

234
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,880
in Maine.
So I wasn't anywhere near my

235
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,200
parents.
They were like at the house.

236
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,520
I used to hitchhike back then to
concert.

237
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,800
I could go through the concerts
I went to and see which ones I

238
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,920
hitchhiked with or I'd get a
ride.

239
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:24,520
But I, I would go in the late
70s after the break the the

240
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,400
Grateful Dead took, I would go
to all the shows in New England.

241
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:35,840
And then starting in 77, I went
to New York City and English

242
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,560
town New Jersey, he states.
In upstate New York.

243
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,480
I did all that and I continued
to, I would I would find more

244
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,040
friends with cars and stuff like
that.

245
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,560
So I would go to as many shows
as I could and they typically

246
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,600
were on the weekends because of
school.

247
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,760
I would try not to to to take
too much.

248
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,880
There was a lot of cocaine, but
that didn't really wasn't really

249
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:09,560
around more in where I was in
Maine or in the Grateful Dead

250
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,840
scene maybe till 79 or 80 and
probably in the early 80s too

251
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:21,400
when I moved to Berkeley.
So I guess you can go back and

252
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,160
listen to some of the shows and
you can tell when they're like

253
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,160
when the dead are like doing
coke.

254
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,840
No, for sure you can and you can
tell.

255
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,800
I think it was that Binghamton
show that you and I were talking

256
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:38,680
about that that has a really
dreamy, Spacey first set that

257
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,520
China cat into like this Spacey
jam for like, you know, in

258
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,200
between.
I know China Cat, I know you

259
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:51,480
rider and and you can just see
the psychedelic state.

260
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,840
But I've also noticed on my own
trips, like, you know, I've

261
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:55,640
tripped and and listened to a
couple.

262
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,880
Yeah, I've listened to a show or
two and I mean the format of the

263
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:04,720
shows follow the format of a
trip almost, almost, almost

264
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,359
exactly In Sync.
And in the sense that the the

265
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,880
shows start at a very happy
light mode, you know, throwing a

266
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,640
couple of the Bob Weir Westerns
that that everyone loves and you

267
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,119
know, China Cat and a couple of
Berthos and fast moving songs.

268
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,260
And then and then, you know, you
kind of get as the quote UN

269
00:17:24,260 --> 00:17:26,880
quote ego loss happens.
Or as you know, the trip kind of

270
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,840
comes to a climax.
You get dark star or Franklin's

271
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,520
or space or drums and you kind
of end up all far out and all

272
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:35,680
weird.
And then they kind of pull it

273
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:40,240
all together and sing you back
home and and the whole and that

274
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,560
follows like the step of every
of any psychedelic I've ever

275
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,720
done.
And almost like AT and so it's

276
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,440
really cool that they've kind of
fashioned the whole the whole

277
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:55,520
set as as one strange trip.
That's an interesting take you

278
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,040
have.
I'm not going to argue with it

279
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:04,200
because I've experienced the
same thing and you just think

280
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,000
that, wow, this is like done for
me.

281
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:14,600
You know, the, the, the, the,
the shows, especially in the

282
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:24,280
late 70s were like so phenomenal
and they were always like, all

283
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,800
the songs were different from
all this other shows around

284
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,400
then.
And they would bring songs back.

285
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:37,920
And it's like, that was that was
the key era for me as a concert

286
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,360
co-owner.
You know, it's so interesting

287
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:46,200
because like, OK, so the Dead,
I'm just going to tell you,

288
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,000
nobody has ever written about
this other than me.

289
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:55,080
But the Dead were the top
concert act as early as 1973.

290
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,280
And a lot of that has to do with
those big shows they did with

291
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:03,280
The Allman Brothers and the band
Watkins Glen Park, a stadium.

292
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,920
And when they took a break the
next year, when they did the big

293
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:13,600
the big Wallace Sound shows,
they couldn't play that many

294
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,560
shows.
So they weren't even in the top

295
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:20,120
10 of, of, of artists.
But so by the time they came

296
00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:24,080
back starting in 76, it took
them a few years to become

297
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,760
really popular again.
And so by 78 and 79, they were

298
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,160
in the top five.
And then later in the 80s and

299
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:39,400
the 90s, they were often #1 and
#2 and what's interesting to me

300
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:44,200
is that over the entire, you
know, 2530 year history of the

301
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:50,840
Dead, they were the top grossing
concert act in the United

302
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:56,360
States.
And of course, I mean, just like

303
00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,880
sheer number of concerts, times
tickets sold because someone

304
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,360
like The Rolling Stones would
come in every three or four

305
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:06,480
years.
And you know, and their average

306
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,160
buildings were three or four
times as big as the Dead were

307
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:13,880
playing Dead might be 10,000 and
they would be paying playing 30

308
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:20,360
or 40,000 a night.
But it's interesting to me that

309
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,800
people didn't really don't
realize how big of a deal the

310
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,160
dead were.
So.

311
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:29,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really
cool.

312
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,720
Do you want to take me through
the wall of sound, especially

313
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,080
from an economic standpoint,
because that thing was like

314
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:42,640
glorious and a headache and
magical and probably a fortune

315
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,720
to deal with.
And as you mentioned, they

316
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,920
probably they couldn't tour as
effectively because of how much

317
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,360
a headache.
I'm sure that's part of the part

318
00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:52,920
of the context, part of the
equation.

319
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,360
But you want to tell, you want
to tell me at least from what

320
00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,000
you can kind of figure out
financially about the wall of

321
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,680
sound and what was about?
Yeah, I don't have all the

322
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,400
information on the Wall of
Sound, but no, they spent, they

323
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,800
spent a lot of money creating
the Wall of Sound.

324
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,960
And one of the biggest issues
were in 73, like I said, they

325
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,600
were the top grossing actor in
the country.

326
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,720
But by creating the Wall of
Sound, they were only able to

327
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,920
play, instead of playing like 80
shows a year, they're all of a

328
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,040
sudden they're playing 40.
And a lot of that had to do with

329
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:35,120
the fact that that they had to
haul that stuff around and they

330
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,320
couldn't play Friday and
Saturday in two different

331
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,600
cities.
So they had they could only they

332
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,520
had to take extra day off.
And so there was that the dead

333
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:51,960
didn't the dead in 73 because of
those giant shows they, they

334
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,240
were sell, they sold 13,000
tickets a night.

335
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,160
And in 74 with the Wall of
Sound, they only sold 10 because

336
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:04,080
a lot of those wall of sound
shows were in small venues like

337
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,640
Winterland.
Some of the college gigs they

338
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:13,400
played early in the year.
Remember, I looked at this about

339
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:24,400
I looked at this that they, it
cost them something like 30 or

340
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,680
40% more to set up the wall of
sound and play in any individual

341
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,520
they like Springfield Civic
Center.

342
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,840
So it just it just like they
weren't making any more money.

343
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,280
They were going to sell out
these venues anyways.

344
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,920
So in my, in my book, there's
some, there's some analysis, all

345
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,080
the, all, the, all the data that
I could find on the wall of the

346
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,240
sound, but just there was
economically a good decision for

347
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,160
them.
Yeah, but they did it.

348
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,560
They did it for the same reason
to do anything else, which is

349
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,360
because it's fun or because they
felt like it.

350
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,120
That was the end of it.
You know, I think.

351
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:04,720
I mean, I tried.
I tried a little like that.

352
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,160
It's really difficult to.
But, you know, I think that I

353
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,400
think the more you practice it,
the better, the easier it is.

354
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,360
Yeah.
You also noted that the college

355
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:17,880
campuses tended to make more
money for the dead as opposed to

356
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,200
these other places.
Can you explain kind of why that

357
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,280
would be?
And and they were pretty

358
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,440
prolific as far as visiting
campuses.

359
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,840
Oh yeah well, number one, they
had a lot of fans that were

360
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,160
college students, especially
starting in 1970 when they made

361
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,520
American Beauty Working man was
like totally.

362
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,200
The fans were interested in
playing, having them come to the

363
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:50,000
campuses.
And if you're making a deal at

364
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,240
the Fulmore East or the
Winterland or like Bill Graham,

365
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,760
like these people, I'm telling,
like I was telling you before,

366
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,640
they're going to pay the debt
what they pay them always, you

367
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,000
know, 5 grand early on, you
know, those kind of things like

368
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,080
that.
But when you plan at college

369
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,040
campuses, you're negotiating
with students.

370
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,720
And so the students don't know
how much to charge.

371
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,360
And so instead of you getting
like 5000 a night, they make

372
00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:17,280
sure you might be able to get
10,000 and that.

373
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,040
And you see that, you, you see
that.

374
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,360
And it was pretty normal.
Just because they're, they're

375
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:28,000
just not sophisticated and they
don't know and they wouldn't get

376
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,000
them completely.
Most great Grateful Dead

377
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,720
managers wouldn't gouge them.
But I mean, they're going to

378
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,680
make more money playing there.
Also, because there was some of

379
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:45,480
their early shows at college
campuses in 1971 at Cortland

380
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,960
State and then at Yale
University in New Haven then

381
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,840
those were the biggest shows the
Dead ever played up to that

382
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,400
point.
So it wasn't it was it was in

383
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,120
the earlier days.
Those were some of the best

384
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,760
venues for the band to play out.
Were you at?

385
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,160
Did you get, Did you get to go
to the Cornell show, the famous

386
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:13,800
77 Cornell Show in Ithaca?
No, I went to the Boston show

387
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,200
the night before.
Yeah.

388
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,960
And then I've been trying to
find people that go that, that

389
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:26,440
that have been there because
that was that, that is that

390
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,880
might be other than 72.
Like the quintessential Dead

391
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,000
album is the Cornell one at
least the live 1A.

392
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,600
Lot of people like it, so yeah.
In Boston the day before.

393
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:45,920
So in in 77, because I saw three
shows in upstate New York in

394
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:52,800
November at Colgate in Hamilton
and Rochester and Binghamton,

395
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:58,920
and among my friends, we thought
those shows were better.

396
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,920
Than Cornell 77.
But you know that there's an

397
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,840
amazing recording of Col.
Cornell.

398
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,600
What's also interesting about
Cornell is that the debt had a

399
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,160
real big dispute with them over
over payment.

400
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,480
Real big meaning like, I don't
know, $100 or something.

401
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,800
They went on for a really long
time.

402
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,760
Really the university didn't
want to give it to them or do

403
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,240
they claim that?
I know that a lot of times

404
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,840
people, more people show up at
the gate or whatever then, you

405
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,720
know, had tickets.
It's a famous.

406
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,800
On the documents I've seen that
it's like there was some dispute

407
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,520
over like the cost of some item
or you know, whatever.

408
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,760
But I mean again, nowadays it's
like rounding error, but back

409
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,440
then.
That's the deal.

410
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:52,960
Yeah.
Definitely, definitely.

411
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:55,400
And what about what about the
Festival Express?

412
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,000
Because, and I don't know if you
wrote about that or not, but I

413
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,640
watched that movie and I
remember reading about that book

414
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,040
and thinking to myself, Oh my
God, like that sounds so cool.

415
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,520
How come that doesn't happen
more often?

416
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,840
And the answer must have been
that it was a logistics

417
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,920
nightmare or it made no money
like everything else that they

418
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,200
did.
But I mean, something stuck.

419
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,080
So I mean that.
And I know that that was one of

420
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,040
the most, that was one of the
most well known trip.

421
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,440
You know, it's tours that they
took other than, you know, the

422
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,400
Europe tour, that tour but and
maybe Egypt or whatever.

423
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,560
But I thought that was crazy.
Yeah.

424
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,360
Yeah, it, you know, it wasn't
really a Dead Dead organized

425
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:35,320
event.
It was like a lot of other bands

426
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,760
were playing.
It's almost like a festival, but

427
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,640
they're on a train show in
Winnipeg and they played a big

428
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,400
show in Toronto like that.
And.

429
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,400
And they didn't get paid that
much because, you know, it's,

430
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,160
it's the 60s.
Yeah.

431
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,080
Like tracking that stuff.
There's a few good articles in

432
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,120
Canadian newspapers about that
torto.

433
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:00,960
Oh really?
I bet.

434
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,760
I bet they probably don't look
at it in the most positive

435
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,880
light, right?
Whatever, you know, like these

436
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:13,640
hippies came on 30,000 hippies
came on to the field and you

437
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,000
know.
They know what to do with it.

438
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,000
They know to do with that
information what?

439
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,120
There's some cool footage of the
dead plane acoustic like.

440
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,480
Yeah, yeah.
Those those early tours, they'd

441
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,040
open with that acoustic set and
then close the electric one.

442
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:32,800
Yeah, I only, I only saw the
dead do that once, so.

443
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,120
What the acoustic one?
Acoustic set and then two

444
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:37,680
electric sets.
When do they do that?

445
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,520
Well, it was 80, so it was the
IT was the when they did the

446
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,440
shows in Warfield and Radio
City, and then I did the New

447
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,680
Year's Eve show in Oakland.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

448
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,680
And so the other thing that I
want to talk to you from the

449
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,760
business perspective, at least
as far as debt goes, because you

450
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,040
said that in the late 60s when
the dead really started

451
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,560
exploding, I think was 69 was
the was 68 or 69 was the.

452
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,080
Are they really as far as
finances and tickets sold really

453
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,960
exploded.
And one thing that you said that

454
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,800
was really relevant or a big
first for them was their first

455
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,840
major debt to a record label.
And I don't think people quite

456
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,560
understand how that works, the
dynamics and interactions.

457
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,440
So if you could explain that,
I'd really appreciate it.

458
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,320
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, a bunch of San Francisco

459
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,200
bands started getting record
deals.

460
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,760
I think it's like 67 or 68, like
the first.

461
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,040
I think 67 is when the first
Grateful Dead record came off

462
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,600
and they didn't get paid very
much.

463
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,640
And I actually have in my book,
I actually have all the stuff

464
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,960
from the contract, but I, I just
don't remember off the top of my

465
00:29:54,960 --> 00:30:00,120
head, it's something like
$20,000 or not very much.

466
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:08,040
And then what, what happened was
they recorded the, the record

467
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,840
over a period of time.
And like every other artist back

468
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,480
then, you, you would the, the
record label would like make,

469
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:21,000
you have like a make good.
So like, OK, you owe us 60,000

470
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:26,840
now because you spent that much
on studio time and you only made

471
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,720
and including the 25,000 or
whatever.

472
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:37,000
And so it's like nobody would
ever make any money off those

473
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,040
unless you were Crosby, Stills,
Nash and Young or Led Zeppelin

474
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,480
who would make a fuck load of
money.

475
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,520
These other artists didn't.
And so the Dead didn't really

476
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,600
start making money till about
till American Beauty and and

477
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,160
working man Deads came out and
then Europe 72.

478
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,840
They figured out ways to start
making money.

479
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:05,400
And then in the late 80s when
they made that, that album in

480
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,240
the 80's, the album A Touch of
Grey on it, that's when they

481
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,920
really started like getting
advances and making a lot of

482
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,320
money.
But a lot of that that I have

483
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,920
information on everything that I
have is in my book.

484
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,800
So when you base so so now if
I'm the dead in the in the late

485
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:28,200
60s and I owe the record
company, I owe them 60 grand.

486
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,600
I pay them back by touring, I
pay them back by making another

487
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:33,880
album.
How do I how do I pay?

488
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,560
How do I pay this back?
Only paying back by selling more

489
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,840
albums, making more albums and
then when the contract's done in

490
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,400
three or four years, it
basically gets written off, goes

491
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,280
away.
So then if.

492
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:49,600
You were in that it doesn't stay
forever.

493
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,200
So it's, it's a little bit
complicated and it wasn't like

494
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,480
they owed them the money.
It's just that we're not going

495
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:05,200
to pay you any more money until,
until you sell more albums.

496
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,080
So that way they get like they
they can latch on to the next

497
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,000
345 albums or something.
Gotcha.

498
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,200
So record deal is not all.
The is not is not the end all be

499
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,800
all as far as financial freedom
goes.

500
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,240
No, but I mean, because there's
just so few artists that made

501
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,880
money off records even even
today it's like that.

502
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:35,000
They make it off touring and the
Dead, that's why the Dead

503
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,280
toured, you know, 80 * a year
for 30 years.

504
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,320
So.
Well, I mean, I'm sure it was

505
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:43,280
because.
Yeah.

506
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,480
And I and I, and I wonder at
what percentage of that time was

507
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,320
because they had to and what
percent of the time because they

508
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,400
wanted to, you know, but.
Percent because they wanted to

509
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,040
maybe and when they're having
issues with Garcia and his

510
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,960
substance abuse problems, maybe
they didn't want it to.

511
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,440
He didn't want to tour as much,
but.

512
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,160
Yeah, yeah.
I think he was sick and tired of

513
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,880
being the the Jerry Garcia that
we know him as today and wanted

514
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,920
to be the little bluegrass Jerry
Garcia that that he was in the

515
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,280
early days.
But you know, we can't.

516
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,400
You can't put the genie back in
the bottle, unfortunately.

517
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,200
What do you what do you think of
John Mayer and Deneco?

518
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:30,480
I saw I've seen Deneco maybe
like 6 or 7 times starting in

519
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:37,480
2015 when they started and the
last two shows I saw were at the

520
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,520
Spear in 2024.
What do you think?

521
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,640
I think John is an excellent
guitar player.

522
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:51,880
And I just kind of like, I'm an
old guy.

523
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,240
I like listening to my old Dead
shows, you know, as more.

524
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,160
But I mean, it was fun to take a
bunch of people who had never

525
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:07,160
seen members of the Grateful
Dead like my wife so.

526
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,159
Yeah, what do you think of the
Sphere as a venue?

527
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,320
Oh, it's very fun.
I thought it was great.

528
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,840
I saw two shows there so I was
lucky.

529
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,639
I would love to part of the
sphere, so sorry.

530
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,199
From two different parts of the
sphere.

531
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:25,760
I saw one show from like near
the stage and one in the second

532
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,320
level.
Would you like more?

533
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,840
I don't know, I like them both.
You're like, well, that's a good

534
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,639
answer.
I would love to go see.

535
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:37,960
I would love to go see those
shows and and I think you're

536
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,040
right, yeah.
I don't spend a ton of time

537
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,560
listening to dad and Co.
They're a different pace for me

538
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,080
than I think I would.
I would like in general, and,

539
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,320
but I think John Mayer, whenever
it's funny, it's hard.

540
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,920
It's harder for me to listen to
him jam than it's much easier

541
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,400
for me to watch him jam.
I, you know, I picked up the

542
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,680
guitar a couple of years ago
from becoming a Deadhead,

543
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,400
obviously.
And, and it's, and, and to watch

544
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,000
him really is a source of
inspiration.

545
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,600
I know that.
And there are thousands of

546
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,760
stories of, of bad trips that
have been rescued as a result of

547
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,240
just sitting there and watching
Jerry, Jerry playing on his, on

548
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:18,920
his guitar.
So I think that, you know,

549
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,920
regardless of the tempo or the
pace of your preference, he

550
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,720
carries that that spirit of
this, this magician that's just

551
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,800
talking with, it's just talking
to you for and laughing, you

552
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,440
know, then the guitars have
different sounds.

553
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,160
I feel like Jerry's guitar
always had like a little laughed

554
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,600
here, a little sense of humor,
like a little.

555
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,040
And again, that might be just me
anthropomorphizing, but that's

556
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,680
what it always feels like to me
at least.

557
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:49,600
You know, it's interesting.
I, I respect John for everything

558
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,960
he did to the dead scene, but I
also got to see John play with

559
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,120
Bobby.
Rest in peace, Bobby.

560
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,400
Where?
Yeah, rest in peace, man.

561
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,120
Cheers to him man.
Here in at the Greek, which is

562
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:13,560
5000 people at the Greek LA in
the park and he, John Mayer sat

563
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,440
in for the second set of one of
those Wolf Brothers shows with

564
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,400
Bobby.
I think it's 22.

565
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,280
So those were the last three
shows I saw two at the Spear and

566
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,600
this one that one so.
Yeah, we need a Bob.

567
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:33,760
Bobby Weir is always, always
weird, Always, always, always.

568
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,560
It's funny.
And like if you take his this

569
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,200
style music that you would play
and write, it didn't always

570
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,680
necessarily fit in the way that
you would imagine.

571
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,720
And I love that little story
that you did reference about how

572
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:51,280
he and Pigpen shortly got fired
from the band in the in the late

573
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,760
60s, early 70s.
And it's just so funny to think

574
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,200
about because looking back, like
what would have happened and how

575
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,320
they even came to that
conclusion, you know, But they

576
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:06,040
like it's everyone, you know,
they're basically myths at this

577
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,160
point.
They're basically legends at

578
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:08,440
this point.
And they're not.

579
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,800
People talk about them like they
all know them at the time.

580
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,120
They're a 20 year old just
playing music together and just

581
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,000
figured like, hey, man, like,
you know, like we're not, you

582
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,520
know, we're not, we're not
digging this right now.

583
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,760
And you know, we'll try to get
in the future maybe.

584
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,280
But they're just people at the
end of the day.

585
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,280
You know, I think Bobby, if that
if they would have got, you

586
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,960
know, 1968, whatever it was,
they wouldn't have been a member

587
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,800
of the Grateful Dead.
After that, Bob Weir would have

588
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,520
played some bunch of other bands
like he did.

589
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,160
That's.
Right.

590
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:42,760
I've seen so many bands.
Rat Dog, the Bob Weir Band, he

591
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,560
wrote some.
He wrote some great songs on

592
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,400
those other albums that aren't
Dead albums.

593
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:50,840
I love it.
Oh yeah, I didn't even know

594
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,680
though.
I don't know his songs from the

595
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,880
Not Dead ones.
I have to check them out if you

596
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,120
if you want to let me know a
few.

597
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,880
My estimated profit might be my
favorite for that.

598
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,400
My favorite.
My favorite that he wrote.

599
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,360
I love estimated profit.
Yeah, I remember when the

600
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,880
estimated profit, when I first
saw it, it's like they would

601
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,840
just play it in like the middle
of the first set or whatever,

602
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,560
just a little 5 minutes.
So they did a good job with that

603
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,240
song.
Yeah.

604
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,040
It's fun to see and actually I
was talking about this to

605
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:25,800
another guy I was talking to
recently.

606
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:27,960
I don't even remember who it was
because I talked to too many

607
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,840
people, but I but I was talking
about how when I listen to when

608
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,960
you, especially when you're
following a band, you could

609
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,440
listen to the Dead or
Springsteen or Dylan or anyone

610
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,080
that has a lot of bootleg
recordings and you could see

611
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,600
snippets of their future songs
in the in the years leading up

612
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,240
to it and where the songs are
coming from and the bare bones

613
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:48,920
and, and what the influences
were.

614
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:52,160
And one thing I did notice was
with so much fun and what makes

615
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,920
what made the the experience is
probably so much fun too, was

616
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,680
that the dead were always
playing with different genres in

617
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,640
the same night.
There, you know, there often

618
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,000
would be 234 bands playing and
they would mix up the genres

619
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,720
like crazy.
I mean, you'd have some Blues,

620
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:09,840
you'd have some rock, you'd have
some, some other San Francisco

621
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,360
bands, you'd have some pop rock,
a Fleetwood Mac.

622
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,000
So you know, I mean, there's
some really cool.

623
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,640
So I, so you you pick up a lot
of other musical influences

624
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:26,280
while you're there.
Before I wrote this book, I I I

625
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,640
wrote my blog on the Dead called
Grateful Seconds Blogs.

626
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,680
It's up.
I have over 500 pieces up there

627
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,400
over a year period.
And just like I was like, here

628
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,520
are the cool shows that with
Bobby doing something, or here

629
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,800
are here are here are my
favorite shows from 1977 or

630
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,240
whatever.
And so I really, I really

631
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:57,960
studied, I really studied the,
the, the well, I've been, I've

632
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:03,560
been studying them for 40 years,
so 50 years now. 50 years is

633
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,520
crazy, 50 years is amazing.
And it's going to, it's going to

634
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,400
keep on going.
I'm excited to see what what

635
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,760
happens.
But the music never stops as far

636
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,600
as, as far as, as far as they're
concerned.

637
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,760
And and that's, that's what's
awesome.

638
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,800
They created a real world that
just, they created a little

639
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,600
Organism that just continues.
And it's this little spirit that

640
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,560
just keeps on going and it
influences everyone in all sorts

641
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,160
of crazy ways.
It's really, really cool.

642
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:32,680
I want to actually, so at the
end of your so late 80s, you

643
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,200
stop going to these shows, you
decide to start growing up a

644
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,960
little bit and, you know,
growing old going up and you

645
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,480
decide and, and, and you, you
have a career in the

646
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,800
entertainment finance industry.
How did that happen?

647
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,200
And how did you even go about
finding that, especially because

648
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,160
I imagine that that kind of job
is for someone from LA, you

649
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,520
know, that that was in the
entertainment scene their whole

650
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:58,600
lives.
And then they say, you know

651
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,560
what, I'm more of a money guy
than a creative guy.

652
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,360
And so I want to do this.
How do you guy from from from

653
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:12,080
Massachusetts end up doing this?
Well, in 87 I had been living in

654
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,720
the Bay Area and, and after the
Dylan Dead show at the, at the

655
00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:24,080
Oakland Coliseum and one show at
in, in, at Palo Alto in at

656
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:31,800
Stanford, I'm I, I moved to LA
and went to UCLA Business School

657
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:38,120
and I studied entertainment
management And in 89 I started

658
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,720
working at one entertainment
company.

659
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:47,000
And then in 95 I started working
for investment bank and then the

660
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,040
last 10 years of my career I
worked for a private equity

661
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:56,200
company all having to do pretty
much with what the value of

662
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,360
films and film assets.
So like here, like if you're

663
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:06,400
looking at the value of Grateful
Deads catalog of shows, how many

664
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,880
do they out a year?
How many do they sell?

665
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,720
If they were to sell those, what
would they worth?

666
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,080
It's the same kind of thing
where like for various reasons,

667
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,880
I would look at a bunch of
Warner Brothers movies from a

668
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,280
certain year that are going to
be in a transaction between one

669
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,640
company and another.
And and I would value what

670
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,480
they're worth because I became
an expert at that.

671
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,600
And then when I was started
working in private equity, we

672
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,240
started acquiring rights.
So we would, we'd like somebody

673
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:43,760
might own a 10% interest in
Stallone, might own a bunch of

674
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,320
interest in his movies.
And he's decided he wants to

675
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,800
sell that off because he's going
to stop being making any movies

676
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:57,480
and move to Florida.
So I mean, that's the ample and

677
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,800
it's like there are many
examples like that.

678
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:07,160
So that was my, my expertise was
knowing what, what film rights

679
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,240
are worth.
You know, we, you made $10

680
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:12,520
million last year, maybe you'll
make 5 billion this year.

681
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,040
And I guess it's simple.
Simple.

682
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,760
A similar mindset to how I
analyze the Grateful Dead.

683
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,360
Yeah, yeah, totally.
I mean, you could tell, you

684
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,960
could definitely see it.
I, I, I happen to love the film

685
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,040
world.
And so I would love to

686
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,720
understand a little bit more
about this, because I know, for

687
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:35,120
example, that sequels always,
almost always make more than the

688
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,600
originals, even though they're
almost never as good.

689
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:43,360
So if you're going to be a
private equity company or, or

690
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,600
you're a bank that's going to
finance a movie and a studio

691
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,560
comes to you and says, hey, we
did put Toy Story 1 grossed XY

692
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,320
and Z 500 million some whatever
it was, you know, and now we

693
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,280
want to make a Toy Story 2.
You take you, I'm sure you take

694
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,040
into account the, the history of
the audience.

695
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,040
And do you assume that it's
going to make more money based

696
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,880
on, based on the fact that this
is a trend or how much of this

697
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,000
is guesswork based on trends?
Or you know what?

698
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:10,720
What?
How do you how do you determine

699
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:16,240
a movie's value?
Well, I have the economics of

700
00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:21,120
movies, millions of them,
because I've looked at them, so

701
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,360
I know how much money they make,
Make in theaters.

702
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,760
Used to be on DVDs and then it
was like.

703
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,600
That was a huge market, right?
And like that, right?

704
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:38,360
And when we got into buying our
own movies, we would never buy

705
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:44,360
them before they're released
because that's too variable.

706
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,480
You don't know if they're going
to do 50 million or 100 million

707
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,800
or whatever.
So we would always buy them

708
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,720
after.
So that was it just because.

709
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,120
And it was really interesting
because it was just really a

710
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,400
bunch of smart guys that I've
known my entire career.

711
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:07,200
And they came up with this
concept that we could we could

712
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,440
buy these movies or pieces of
movies.

713
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:16,040
Usually it was pieces, usually
like a director or an actor or

714
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,000
something and and that kind of
thing.

715
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:24,120
So, but you would never be able
to buy a piece of Toy Story 2

716
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,360
because Disney knows 100.
Percent.

717
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,240
Big money.
So they don't need anyone to

718
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:32,480
finance that.
They don't want to share

719
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,240
profits.
So a lot of times early on it

720
00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:39,080
would be companies that are
trying to like pull some

721
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:46,240
bullshit or you know, or so it's
just it's interesting to find

722
00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:49,760
the right people to buy movies
off of and that kind of.

723
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,240
Thing well, I imagine like I
knew you mentioned briefly, but

724
00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:58,120
that the DVD sales were were
real, real money makers.

725
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,960
So, so I'm sure that there were
hedge funds, I guess investment

726
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,120
banks, Oregon hedge funds that
would buy just for the, just for

727
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,640
the after DVD market, you know,
so the movie opens in theaters

728
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,720
or it's a romantic.
And the other thing I also am

729
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:19,200
curious, do you keep in mind
how, how exactly if a movie,

730
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,120
let's say a movie cost $20
million to make and opens to

731
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,960
8,000,000 for the opening
weekend, how do you know if that

732
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:27,000
movie is going to make money or
not?

733
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,400
Oh, there's, there's kind of
formulas that you can tell if

734
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,360
it's a certain kind of movie,
it's going to either decline by

735
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:40,360
so much or so much more.
It's all it's all mathematical

736
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,480
like that.
But we like I said, it's hard to

737
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:49,320
it's hard to value those movies
when they're only been out for

738
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,200
one week too.
So it's value them six months

739
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,040
later.
It depends what you're trying to

740
00:46:55,040 --> 00:47:03,760
do exactly.
But like right now, because I, I

741
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:11,360
kind of retired around COVID, I
don't think there's even any

742
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,360
DVD.
No, but now it's streaming

743
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,960
rights.
Yeah, so that's that's that's

744
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,520
actually good and bad.
But the good part is that, OK,

745
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:26,880
so like some movie comes out
centers and now it's on HBO Max,

746
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,520
It's be streaming there for like
two or three years.

747
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,120
So you can kind of get it.
You can.

748
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,520
That's the that's the
predominant domestic revenue

749
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:39,240
over the next few years.
It's really big stuff.

750
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:47,160
But I mean, I'm retired now, so
I don't, I'm not, I'm not like

751
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,080
up to speed on the most.
Yeah, yeah.

752
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,480
No, I'm, I'm just, I'm, I'm
curious because I think it's a

753
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,680
really, really cool.
I think it's, I don't think a

754
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,080
lot of people think about the
fact that there are banks that

755
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,240
finance movies.
I know, for example, I believe

756
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:04,360
that James Cameron is famous for
taking out a lot of loans

757
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,560
outside of the studio to develop
the technologies that he wants

758
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,160
for his, for his movies.
And so, you know, that's when he

759
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,000
goes to the studio and says, OK,
I need as much of a budget as

760
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,400
you're willing to give me.
And they say, OK, I'll give you

761
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,040
$250 million.
Then he goes to a hedge fund or

762
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,160
he goes to investment bank.
It says, hey, I got $250 million

763
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:26,040
from the studio.
I need double that.

764
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,080
You know, I need double that for
the next couple of years to make

765
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,440
a movie that.
He might get it, he might get

766
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:38,160
it, he might get it that because
he's so has been so successful.

767
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,680
Yeah, yeah.
That's that's the point.

768
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:45,360
But it seems like such a like
that it's just someone like just

769
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,320
just saying, hey, watch like
some of your great movies.

770
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,280
And I see the numbers are great.
And so you know what, yeah,

771
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:50,720
here's $500 million.
Good luck.

772
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:54,000
Have a good, you know, hire, go,
go hire a city for five years

773
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,560
and, and make something happen.
And, and he does.

774
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,760
That's, that's the cool part.
I mean, I, I think that all

775
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,040
those movies have at least the
Avatar movies.

776
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,000
I think this third one opened
over a billion.

777
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,600
Granted I think it was a five
day weekend, but I mean they all

778
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,440
is all they they all three
avatars have cost a billion

779
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,280
already.
I think it was 25 years ago when

780
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:18,240
Titanic came out.
I think around that and my firm

781
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:23,680
at the time, we we tried to do a
deal with Fox to like it was to

782
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,880
ensure the performance of that
movie along with some other

783
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,200
movies.
And it went all the way up the

784
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:33,400
chain and the company and
they're like, OK, we'll do this

785
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:34,360
deal.
We'll do this deal.

786
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,560
We want to ensure it.
We want to make sure it does OK.

787
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,280
They didn't know how well it's
going to do and went up to

788
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:44,680
Rupert Murdoch, who was the head
of May still be the head of Fox.

789
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,440
I think he is.
And he looked at the deal and he

790
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,560
said, you know what, we're we're
in the business to take risks.

791
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:53,320
We're going to business to take
risks.

792
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:54,920
So he didn't do the deal with
us.

793
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,200
So we didn't make several
$1,000,000.

794
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,120
Wow.
Amazing, amazing.

795
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,240
That's crazy.
And how did they hire people to

796
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:07,680
that that were like in the film
world or had the quote UN quote

797
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,560
artistic perspective or they
were just purely about the about

798
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,240
the bottom line and try to make
it about as scientific as

799
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:17,000
possible?
Well, all the companies I worked

800
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:21,080
for over the years, I gained
more and more experience, like

801
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,800
30 years.
And like we all, we always use

802
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,320
the same people and like, we,
we, we, we were pretty

803
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,040
quantitative about it.
It was also good that I saw the

804
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:35,880
movies.
It's the same way with the dead

805
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,400
with, you know, it helps in my
book that I, I saw the dead 82

806
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,640
times.
I saw Garcia 100 times.

807
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,640
I saw we are 102 times.
You know it that it just it

808
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,640
helps when you have a real
interest in a subject for me.

809
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,080
Yeah, definitely.
The initial basis and it was the

810
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,760
same way in the in the movie
business.

811
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,440
Yeah, I heard that.
I heard that horror movies are

812
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,280
the real money makers of
Hollywood, that they're so cheap

813
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:12,640
to produce, to create and
produce and, and the and and,

814
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,960
and they're very consistent with
the at least with the theatre

815
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,080
performances.
And I know that the theatre

816
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,360
performance only has, you know,
there's only one capat one

817
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:26,400
category of ways to make money.
As far as as far as films go,

818
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,520
again, you talk about streaming
rights or DVDs or down the road

819
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,440
or whatever it is.
But but I've heard that that the

820
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,840
horror movies in particular were
really are really studios bread

821
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,720
and butter as far as as
reliability and money is

822
00:51:39,720 --> 00:51:44,320
concerned.
That's kind of true because

823
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,040
horror movies are so inexpensive
to make.

824
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,120
You know, you're filming out in
the woods in a cabin, you know,

825
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:56,560
whatever, that's your movie and
you can movie that way.

826
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:01,560
And there are people like
Bloomhouse that I think work

827
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,040
with the Universal and they're
just like they're, they're just

828
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:10,200
have such a track record up with
these inexpensive ideas that

829
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:14,040
can, that can perform like any
other studio movie.

830
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:20,480
Yeah, and they typically do not
depend on big star names that

831
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,240
are big, you know, big director
names that you have to that you

832
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:28,120
have to really budget for.
And it's a shame because I mean,

833
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,960
you think back to 2000 and
seven, 2008, when the superhero

834
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,520
movies were that genre of movies
where they were like, listen, it

835
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,520
wouldn't cost that much.
Robert Downey Junior was a

836
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,960
gamble, you know, and you didn't
know what you're going to get

837
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,040
with him and and you didn't know
what you're going to get with

838
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:47,880
what's his name, Jon Favreau.
And, and it worked and now you

839
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,520
now every movie, I mean, I can't
even imagine what percentage of

840
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,720
the budget just goes to, just
goes to names, just goes to

841
00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:57,400
signatures and names and faces
on screen that you know, you

842
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,440
recognize relative to what the
what the movie actually could

843
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:02,960
be.
Yeah, that that concept, it goes

844
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:07,520
in and out like star driven
movies or or other movies

845
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:15,040
without stars, but you have a
pretty good sense for a guy down

846
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:19,720
Florida.
Thank you, thank you very much.

847
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:21,520
I try to keep myself updated on
this stuff.

848
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,160
I love this stuff.
I mean, because I've always been

849
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,520
I've always been into music and
movies and I've always wanted to

850
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,520
kind of work in them in some
capacity.

851
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,600
And the truth is that this
podcast really gives me the

852
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:34,920
opportunity to free to freelance
and learn about as much about it

853
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,640
as I as I as I can and kind of
spread that information just

854
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:42,240
because I love there's so much
fascinating stuff behind the

855
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:44,160
scenes.
And it's, and again, even just

856
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,680
in economic history is just such
a great way to just take a step

857
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,560
back and objectively look,
forget about the reputation,

858
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:54,760
forget about the music, forget
about the drugs, forget about

859
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,320
the crowds.
Let's just talk about you can

860
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:58,960
take a literal look at the paper
trail.

861
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,880
Although I didn't want to bring
up everything was freaking off

862
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,800
the books then and everything
was cash then.

863
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,480
So like, how much can you really
even depend depend on the on the

864
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:09,240
books?
That's true.

865
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:13,960
I don't know how much,
especially when it's like cash

866
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,160
from the from the box office at
that show that night.

867
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,600
I don't know how many you.
I think the only thing is like

868
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,640
they know how much the tickets
are and they know me tickets are

869
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,600
selling and you're selling out
it.

870
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,480
By the time you're selling out
every night, you can't really

871
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,640
like fudge it too much.
But early on, if you want to say

872
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,880
only 3000 people paid, not 5000,
you know, that kind of thing.

873
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:44,400
Yeah, yeah.
But I even put the and I don't,

874
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:46,400
I don't know whether they're
still flies or not, but their

875
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:50,000
girlfriends and wives and
everything on payroll and on

876
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,360
salary.
And I mean, I can't even imagine

877
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,600
what doing their accounting or
or any kind of bookkeeping

878
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:01,400
looked like.
Yeah, well, continue reading

879
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,080
through my book, You'll you'll
come across some like, Grateful

880
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,480
Dead corporate financial
statements.

881
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:08,760
They're kind of interesting to
me.

882
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,960
They're fascinating too, because
like you said, you don't know

883
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,560
how much you can rely on, you
know?

884
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,640
Yeah, awesome.
Well, I think this is awesome.

885
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:23,520
I'm going to put the link to
your book up on the site and to

886
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,760
your blog, I hope.
But Dave Davis, thank you so

887
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,480
much for hopping on last minute,
making this really quick but

888
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,320
quick turn around.
This is such a pleasant

889
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conversation and great Bobby
Weirman and keep keep on, keep

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on trucking man.
Thanks.

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Thank you Efren, have a nice.
Day hopping on.

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All the best man, take care.