#137: James Thurber / Political Polarization / Elite vs Americans / Understanding Lobbying / Gov’t

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together,

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Jim Thurber.
Professor Jim, how are you?

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Good to good to be speaking with
you today.

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Thank you for taking the time.
Good to speak with you.

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Thank you for having me on your
podcast.

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I'm really, I'm really excited
to talk.

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As I mentioned, while we were
talking on our phone call the

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other day, I, I came across your
name and the references of some

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of the work that you've done in
John Perkins book.

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And I reached out and, and then
I did a little bit of homework

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about your career and the work
that you do and the research

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that you do.
And I, I knew that I, I knew

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that I wanted to hear and learn
as much as I can from you in the

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time that you have.
So I would love to dive into

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things.
It's an honour to be invited.

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Thank you.
Very much sure, sure.

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Of course.
So, so we have a lot of

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different directions that we can
go because you've had quite a

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career and there's, and there's
quite a bit that I think that I

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want to educate the audience on
as far as the way that the, our

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government works and, you know,
practicality, reality, your

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experiences.
And I know that one of the main

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things that you, that you work
on is, is understanding the

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roots of political polarization
and methods that are used to

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kind of keep us at one another's
throats.

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And nothing feels quite as
prevalent as, you know, it does

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today.
Even though I feel like every, I

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feel like every time I read in,
in the history book, they, they

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say that every time, you know,
at the date of publishing too.

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So I'm not sure if that's
something new or not.

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The polarization has been here
since the founding.

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Obviously, we had a revolution.
Yeah, I.

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Guess the king and we were
highly polarized then and and

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sometimes we forget that we are
polarized not only by the

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colonies, but between the
colonies and England, United

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Kingdom, but also within the
colonies.

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We were polarized because of the
the stain of of slavery and the

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fact that African Americans did
not have the vote, women did not

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have the vote.
But also sometimes we forget

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about the polarization with the
people who lived on the land

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when we came here, indigenous
people in all of the colonies,

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especially east of the
Appalachian Mountains.

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But let's bring it up to date.
We had a highly polarized

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democracy when we had a serious
disagreement between the South

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and the North over the question
of slavery in an economic system

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based upon owning people who
would work for you in the South.

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And that polarized period stays
with us today.

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It broke out in war, hundreds of
thousands of people died.

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But today we still have a form
of polarization based upon

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geography, the based upon
personal values, based upon the

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way our leaders lead in terms of
sometimes pulling us apart

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rather than pulling us together.
But let's go through a few of

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those things right now.
One is there's very differences

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between great differences
between the traditional South

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and the Rocky Mountains.
They are basically red areas

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except for Colorado in New
Mexico and the urban areas in

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rural areas, rural areas in
America, 94% of them voted for

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for President Trump.
And the, the polarization within

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the Republican Party is
important to focus on also

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because there's MAGA people, but
then there's conservative

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Republicans and they're very
different.

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And many traditional Republicans
feel a little alienated from

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what's going on with this
president now, especially in

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terms of his actions with
respect to Minneapolis, but

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also.
Iran and Venezuela has been a

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been a point of conflict between
the Republican Party for sure.

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Yeah, and the rural areas are
very different in terms of their

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values.
They're there for, they aren't

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for gun control.
They they want responsible use

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of guns.
They need guns in Montana and

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Wyoming elsewhere for a variety
of reasons.

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That's one source of
polarization.

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But also they have more
traditional values when it comes

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to religion and and other
values, the role of government.

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It's, it's OK to, to debate and
go and have a strong opposition

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to the size of government and
these and the amount of taxes we

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have.
And no one likes taxes.

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But people in rural areas are
struggling and they, they would

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like to have lower taxes.
They'd also like to have good

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health care.
And that's that's another

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problem.
Can I ask, I'm sorry, do you

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think that it's an issue of
paying taxes or feeling like the

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money that the taxes are going
isn't being well enough spent?

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Well, there's always that.
Better, no matter who you are,

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Democrat or Republican, you.
Well, Sir.

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You worry about how the money.
Is being spent whether it's.

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Being wasted, whether it's
corrupt, whether you're spending

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too much on on national security
and war and not enough on other

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things, or maybe that you feel
it's not the role of government

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to be involved in in healthcare
or retirement, etcetera.

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The the voters are are polarized
and when voters are polarized

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based upon some of these values
that are mentioned, then leaders

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take advantage of that
polarization frequently.

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But it also is a structural
phenomena in America where the

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real election for the House of
Representatives, for example,

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but also in many state
legislatures is the primary

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election.
Whoever gets, whoever wins in

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the primary basically will win
in the general election because

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there are very few competitive
districts right now.

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We're going into a midterm
election this year in November

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and it's estimated that there's
probably only 30 seats in the

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House of Representatives that
are competitive where you win by

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by less than 5%.
That may go up.

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It does in certain years when
there's looks like there's going

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to be a huge turnover and when
there's a lot of retirements.

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There are 41 retirements so far.
So the point is that if you want

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to get elected, you appeal to
the far right and far left,

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depending on the nature of your
district or some other issue

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that takes you away from the
from the middle, from the norm.

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Sure.
In America, so when you do that

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and you have people elected, say
to the House of Representatives,

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but also the Senate, you have
people that are that in order to

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get elected, they're pretty far
left or right.

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And then when they come
together, it's very hard to

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compromise.
And our, our whole democratic

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system is based upon compromise.
Our foundation of our Republic

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is based upon compromise.
Wasn't very nice about the way

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we treated African Americans and
Native Americans, but that's,

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you know, that's the foundation.
And we, we've evolved, we're

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better.
But when you get elected in the

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far right, far left, it's very
hard to come together and agree

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on things like right now we may
have another short term shutdown

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a government.
And as you know, we had a very

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long term in the fall.
And one of the reasons is that

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the that if you're a hardcore
Democrat or Republican and

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you're elected by people on the
far right or far left, it's very

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hard to come together and say,
OK, we'll take care of your

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issues of pro-life right now, or
we'll take care of try to

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improve ICE and what they're
doing.

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But if you come from a district
that disagrees with that and you

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want to get re elected, that's
the big drive.

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You're going to appeal to your
base.

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So polarize voters, create a
situation where leaders make it

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makes it very hard for leaders
to come together and compromise.

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Now there are very few people in
the middle.

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There used to be Blue Dog
Democrats, moderate Democrats in

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the middle.
They're gone.

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Really.
There used to be.

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Would you call a gentleman like
Ro Kahana one of those type of

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guys or the Thomas Massie's or
the Paul's on the on the

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Republican side or you wouldn't
even call them that?

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Yeah, they they're more in the
middle.

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They are more in the middle.
Yeah, there's some issues where

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they're not in the middle, but
they're in the middle.

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They're willing to compromise it
really to come together.

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And that's a problem for our
democracy.

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It creates difficulties for the
leadership to get people

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together to lead.
So we have polarized voters,

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polarized members getting
elected, and then we have

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polarized leaders because the
leaders are the people that the

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caucus wants in the House and
the Senate.

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They get the leadership that
they want.

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And if they don't, they're out
like McCarthy or or others in

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the past, riot, etcetera.
They fire them, they get rid of

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them because quote they were too
moderate.

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Really.
Yeah.

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And so like Ryan, former speaker
from Wisconsin, had 28 bills

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when he was speaker that where
he needed Democratic votes.

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He got roundly criticized and
pushed out of office for being

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too moderate by his caucus.
People saw that McCarthy had a

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similar situation, even though
even though he criticized Trump,

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at the end, he flew down to Mar
a Lago and said, you know, we're

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going to support you and
everything because he was the

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elected person.
Then he got pushed out.

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So you have these polarized
leaders that come from districts

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that are safe.
And we redistrict usually every

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10 years, but now we're having
mid, mid densest drawing right

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now in Texas, California, maybe
Virginia, maybe Illinois, maybe

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maybe Florida that put they draw
lines around the source.

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Yeah.
I redistricted the state of

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Washington many years ago, in
1972.

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I was a statistician then.
I merged census data with

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election data and I wanted more
competitive districts because

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there's empirical evidence that
if you have more competition in

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the general election, you get
more moderation by the people in

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office.
Makes sense?

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We're going in the opposite
direction.

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Yeah.
I became a reformer after that

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because the people who hired me
to redistrict where the state

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legislature run by Democrats and
I said I kept pushing, no, we

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need more competitive districts.
They wanted more.

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They wanted more districts that
were non competitive.

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So I pushed in my career for for
commissions to do redistricting

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with the idea that most of those
commissions, there are seven

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true commissions now in the
United States and a bunch of

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others that say they're
commissions, but they're highly

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partisan.
I pushed for them to draw the

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lines.
We'd have more competition and

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we have more competition in some
states.

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But now we have this mid census
drawing in California to create

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even more districts that are
safe for the Democrats out there

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and in Texas more for the
Republicans.

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So it's going in the opposite
direction.

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So the foundations of political
polarization come from the

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voters, the leaders, regional
differences, urban, rural

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differences that are very
different.

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And we have partisan sorting,
meeting people sort and they

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live in places where they agree
with people.

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And if they don't, they keep
their mouth shut or they change.

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If you're if, for example, if
you're a union member, pro pro

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Democratic and you come out of
Detroit, MI and you're a strong

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Democrat, you move to to the
suburbs of Phoenix or some or

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South Florida.
You don't go around knocking on

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doors, getting people to try to
vote Democratic.

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You, you shut up.
You reduce cognitive dissonance

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with your neighbors by not
saying much except people who

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are real community organizers.
They'll do it and they'll do it.

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They keep doing it.
But, but most people just want

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to have peace.
And so they sort, they agree

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with the people around them.
In rural America, in urban

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America, it's primarily
Democratic.

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And in the suburbs, that's where
there's a lot of battle and, and

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there are a lot of people who
are becoming independents.

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They're more independents in the
United States now, if you ask in

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surveys than there are Democrats
or Republicans.

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Those people are not voting.
They're young.

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Maybe they'll change.
I hope they change because the

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way out of this is to vote and
to vote people, and that you

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think will represent your
interests.

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We also added to it.
I'm sorry, there's a lot.

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No, I love this is this is
wonderful.

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This is wonderful.
There's a lot in the foundation

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of polarization.
We also have a polarized media.

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Yeah.
Podcasts, social media,

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Newspapers, radio programs, all
kinds of things are highly

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polarized.
And, and frequently these

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sources of media media are, you
know, on multiple levels.

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There's different kinds of
media, but, but many of them are

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polarized and they, they're
polarized to attract more

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eyeballs if people are watching
it or more ears if they're

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00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,520
listening to it.
And they ream podcasts

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sometimes, for example, you know
about them.

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I don't think this is one of
those.

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That's why I said yes to the
podcast.

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I try not to let it be.
Yeah, I think it's more

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objective than you looked at
some of them.

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You have people all over the map
in terms of ideology and their

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values and their research.
That's important.

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00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:04,640
That's not always the case.
The polarized media reinforces

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00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,840
the polarization of the of the
people elected and the voters

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00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,400
and it makes it more difficult.
And then we have this phenomena

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00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,360
that's been going on for 30 to
40 years.

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The missing moderates.
There used to be many moderates.

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I, as you know, I work in the US
Senate for then Senator Hubert

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00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,640
Humphrey from Minnesota and his,
his best friend was Dirksen, a

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00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,840
Republican who's the Republican
leadership.

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They used to get together, have
a little Scotch, figure out what

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they agreed on, what they didn't
agree, go to the floor and very

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00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:45,240
respectfully debated an issue.
Not attacking them, their

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00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:50,600
family, but with respect to
base, and they knew where the

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00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,560
votes were.
They'd have the vote and then

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00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,800
leave the floor with their arms
around each other, chatting,

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00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,280
going back for a little more
Scotch.

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That's beautiful, but when's the
last time you saw people do

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00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,280
that?
Very rare.

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00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:10,720
There are some issues that are
bipartisan, but very few.

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There's some.
It used to be that we had

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00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,480
bipartisanship when we left the
United States and hit the water.

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00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:23,880
In other words, when there was a
when there was a a threat to the

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United States, when there was a
war and then Vietnam happened

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00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:34,680
and Iraq and Afghanistan and
they ever named wars in the

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00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,040
Middle East and all those things
ripped the parties apart.

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00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,640
And that you've seen that right
now you'll see it in in the run

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00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,640
up to the midterm elections and
and in 2028 for the presidential

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election.
Back to the point, moderates are

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00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,040
not around anymore.
People don't run and say I'm a

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00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,840
moderate elect me now when when
Obama ran, he said I want to

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change the way Washington works.
He was referring to corruption,

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00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,200
but also he wanted to change it
by bringing people together.

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00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,960
And he had people together
because he had a huge majority

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00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,560
the first two years together in
the Republic and the Democratic

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00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,319
Party.
But then he lost overwhelmingly

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00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,119
the midterms, and he couldn't
really bring people together.

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00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:29,320
I think all modern presidents,
from FDR to, to to Trump's first

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00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,600
four years in office said those
things.

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00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,480
We want to bring Americans
together.

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00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,520
We all believe in freedom.
We all believe in in our

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00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,080
democracy, in our in our
capitalist system.

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00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,160
But Trump did not have that
message.

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00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,960
He didn't say, I want to bring
people together.

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00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,000
And he never has that message,
which is a problem that is

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00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,960
throwing gasoline on the embers
of polarization.

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00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,000
And his base likes it about a
third.

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00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,840
And then others didn't like
Biden that much or they didn't

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00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,800
vote.
And and he won overwhelmingly,

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00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,320
OK, for the second time around,
but he won with a highly

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00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:16,920
populist and polarized message.
Now he's governing on that also.

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00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:21,960
And support for him keeps going
down in the polls because

289
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,600
Americans are, I think, getting
tired of the chaos.

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00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,680
Tired, tired of the polarized
language.

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00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:35,560
They care about cost of living,
whether the kids can go to

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00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,760
college or not, whether they
whether the kids can have

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00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,440
housing, whether they can have
housing.

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00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,680
They care about these bread and
butter issues.

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00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:52,720
And in the polarized world,
polarized rhetoric, that is not

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00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,200
always the case.
And there's extreme statements

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00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,000
on the left and on the right.
And we have a president that has

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00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,280
some pretty extreme, extreme
statements.

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00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,840
And that's very hard.
He is not saying let's all pull

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00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,320
together.
Can I can I ask if you don't

301
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:09,720
mind?
I just have a couple of follow

302
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,840
up questions because I think
that I think a lot of what you

303
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,960
said really clarifies a lot and
explains a lot, especially as to

304
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,600
why it feels like everywhere you
look, people are just so extreme

305
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,280
and obviously that's being fed
to us.

306
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:32,560
I, I think that I have so many
the problem.

307
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,200
I think that potentially, and
I'm curious what your thoughts

308
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:41,040
are on this as someone that I
guess I just turned 30 and I

309
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,280
think I mentioned to you that I
mentioned that to you as well.

310
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,640
And, and there are a lot of
concerns or issues that Trump

311
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:57,440
ran on that it felt like was
unilaterally appreciated and

312
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,360
cared about by everyone, right?
For example, the Epstein, I

313
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:05,160
think was a problem with that,
that whole being swept under the

314
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,160
rug and this whole operation
just constantly being, you know,

315
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,440
I, I mean, there's no solid
story for anything.

316
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,000
And everyone left and right
wants to hear, and you hear

317
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,160
situations where the House and
Congress passed, sorry, the

318
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,200
Congress and the Senate passed,
you know, this remarkable vote

319
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,800
where they want to allow
everything out and.

320
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,040
Everything becomes redacted.
And I feel like anyone that had

321
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,040
hoped that this was going to be
the case is now disappointed.

322
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,440
And the same thing applies, I
feel perhaps to the to the

323
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,120
economy, right?
Trump and Biden both walked

324
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:42,760
around saying the economy is
great, the economy is great.

325
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,360
The America everyday Americans,
from my understanding, didn't

326
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:49,480
feel that way.
And then, and one thing that

327
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,200
John Perkins pointed out in in
his newest revision of

328
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,040
Confessions of the Economic,
Economic Hitman was that if

329
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,320
there's three people with
approximately half the wealth in

330
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,440
America and they make 10% on
their investments and everyone

331
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,680
else loses 3% or stays at stays,
you know, just about the same,

332
00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:11,640
then as a whole, the economy
went up, you know, And so

333
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:16,400
they're always, you know, there
are always ways to, for, for

334
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,000
leadership or politicians to be
able to say that things are good

335
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,920
and to able to try and convince
the audience or convince their

336
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,960
bases or convince anyone that
things are the certain way.

337
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:33,040
But I think that it's become so
blatant recently that the

338
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,480
conversation for a lot of people
isn't a question as to whether

339
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,240
or not politics are left and
right.

340
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,840
It feels more elite versus
everyday people, you know?

341
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,000
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's a good,

342
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,600
that's an accurate position.
Let me reflect on some of the

343
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:54,600
things that you said, Sir.
Trump ran, ran on the economy.

344
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,640
He ran against Biden being too
old and not with it.

345
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:06,320
He ran on immigration and many
immigrants, recent immigrants

346
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,640
agreed with him that there
should be a a legal pathway to

347
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,640
citizenship.
That's changed a little bit in

348
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,560
terms of his implement, serious
implementation of it now.

349
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:26,480
But he also ran on a strong
defense, but not getting into

350
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,800
wars around the world that were
directly related to us.

351
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,720
So this is a lot of popularity
there.

352
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:41,720
But he also said things about
when it came to the economy, the

353
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:47,320
division, the difference of
wealth in the United States.

354
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:50,800
But he didn't hit it real hard.
And then he forgot about it once

355
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,480
he got into office and brought
in all kinds of CE OS.

356
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:57,320
And.
Basically, they gave him all

357
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,800
kinds of contributions, not only
Musk but others for his

358
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,920
campaign, but also for for the
ballroom, all kinds of ways to

359
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,280
to be in a transactional
situation.

360
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,520
Politics is transactional, but
not as blatant as his

361
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:18,480
transactional things.
Behind that is what I call the

362
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,360
norm of reciprocity.
Now, what's the largest, what's

363
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:24,200
the most important norm in one's
life?

364
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,240
Love.
OK, in my opinion, it's behind

365
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,120
all kinds of religions, love and
caring for each other.

366
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,640
But behind that is reciprocity.
I'll help you if you'll help me.

367
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,560
You hurt me.
I may not get mad, but I'll get

368
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,040
even.
He is very blatant about that.

369
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,200
And that affects our
relationships with the world,

370
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:51,200
but also people's relationships
when they see this in the United

371
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:52,960
States.
There's a lot of transactional

372
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,600
things with respect to lobbying.
There always has been, but this

373
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,240
is much of it, in my opinion.
I write about ethics and

374
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,840
lobbying a lot A.
Lot of it is, I hope after.

375
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,720
It's it's it's ill.
Many things are illegal in my

376
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,000
opinion.
If you look at the standard

377
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,680
laws, which I know pretty well
back to the point he ran on

378
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,600
things that were popular.
He but most importantly,

379
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:23,000
remember there were 3rd of
America are a lot or more felt

380
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,680
left out.
That's related to the division

381
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,280
of wealth.
They felt left out.

382
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,440
They thought he would come in
and help them.

383
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:36,160
They felt that the elite in the
media and he attacks the media,

384
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,440
the elite in the media, the
elite in in elite institutions

385
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:46,640
of higher education.
The elite in government were not

386
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,920
to be trusted.
And he went after them.

387
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,720
Yeah, in a very populist way.
And that was popular.

388
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,040
Yeah.
But that's related to your point

389
00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:02,680
of this distribution of wealth.
It's getting worse and worth.

390
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,040
Very few people are in the
billionaire category and they

391
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,160
owned, you know, half the wealth
or more in the United States and

392
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,720
others are struggling and some
are not struggling that much,

393
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,920
but they're, they see their kids
struggling, they're adult

394
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,560
children that people want to go
to college, etcetera.

395
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:29,440
So then when Biden, but also
Trump says, well, geez, the

396
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,080
stock market's doing really
well.

397
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,200
Look at the data on
unemployment.

398
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:39,040
It's well baloney.
It's, it's what it costs to buy

399
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,080
some eggs.
It's what whether you can have

400
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,600
healthcare, whether you're going
to afford healthcare insurance,

401
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,680
whether your kids are going to
have a future and most of them

402
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,760
are are saying, well, we're our
future is not going to be as

403
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:58,280
good as what you had.
That's a very serious problem in

404
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,120
our democracy.
And I think the same language

405
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:06,040
from Trump going further now
about, oh, the economy is good,

406
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,720
don't worry about it.
It's similar to Biden's he but

407
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,400
but the strategy of Trump is to
flood the zones with zone with

408
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,760
all kinds of issues every day.
I don't know what they'll be

409
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,240
today.
And that controls what the media

410
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,400
are doing to a great extent, you
know, the general media.

411
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,200
And that's a strategy.
He's he's not stupid that way.

412
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,200
But the question is where does
this strategy lead us as a

413
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,680
democracy?
And I think it's leading us in a

414
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:44,440
way that is not very democratic,
it's not very equitable in.

415
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,680
Terms of quite frankly.
Pardon me.

416
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,200
It's terrible, quite frankly.
Yeah, it's terrible.

417
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:54,160
I mean, I, it's, it's and, and I
think, and I think something,

418
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,880
I'm sorry to interrupt, but
something as glaring as Epstein,

419
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,920
which is an like an exact, exact
example of literally the will of

420
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,520
the people that are supposed to
be keeping the executive branch

421
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,680
in check.
That is the checks and balances

422
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,680
in checks and balances is that
every single person except for

423
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,600
literally one person in Congress
and the, and the Senate voted

424
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,440
for something and for the people
not to have that and for 50 days

425
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,800
or 45 days, whatever it's been
to go by without any

426
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,280
repercussions.
And with the fact that Bill and

427
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,480
Hillary and Hillary Clinton had
just decided they got subpoenaed

428
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,640
and just didn't show up shows
that the institutions don't

429
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,200
really have one tier of justice.
And I think that it's so blatant

430
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,440
now that it's, it's really, it's
upsetting.

431
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,280
But I think a lot of people just
throw up their hands and say,

432
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:41,680
yeah, you know what?
It's not really democracy

433
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:42,920
anyway.
You call it whatever you want,

434
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,040
but like, no one really feels
like they're getting what they

435
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,840
voted for at the end of the day
a lot of times.

436
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:54,000
Well, the Epstein situation is
terrible.

437
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:57,600
I mean, if you had a daughter
that got caught up in this,

438
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,280
you'd be furious.
You'd, I'm curious, just

439
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,800
thinking about what happened.
And in your in your statement,

440
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:11,080
you refer to the Congress
article one of the Constitution

441
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,960
creates a very strong Congress,
but it has to act.

442
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,000
It hasn't acted.
And one of the reasons it hasn't

443
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,360
acted very, very firmly is that
we've got a president who's

444
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:25,360
dominating it in terms of what
he wants.

445
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:28,360
Yeah.
Now LBJ did that, Johnson did

446
00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:30,240
that.
Lots of people do that.

447
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,640
I've written a whole book on
called Rivals book, our

448
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,560
President of Congress and it it
changes.

449
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:42,520
But this is to the extreme in
terms of really forcing the

450
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,360
Republicans in the House and the
Senate not to challenge him on a

451
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,640
variety of things, even even on
Epstein and what happened with

452
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:58,400
Epstein and, and, and the papers
there, he has said terrible

453
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,960
things about it, like, oh, it's,
it's an extraction.

454
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,680
This is distraction.
Pardon me.

455
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,200
It, it, it doesn't, it, it
doesn't help us address the real

456
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,520
problems of immigration.
The criminals that are

457
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,120
immigrants, well, they're very
few criminals that are

458
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,960
immigrants.
There are some, in my opinion.

459
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,240
I mean, the data show that.
So we have a democracy that's a

460
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,680
pluralist democracy, meaning
groups are very powerful.

461
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,560
If they organize and push
things, they have some impact,

462
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,680
but our pluralist democracy
sings with an upper class

463
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,520
accent.
Yeah.

464
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,640
Pluralism sings with an upper
class accent.

465
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:51,360
It's and it has a patina of
elitism and certainly Epstein is

466
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,320
about that.
It's about the elites.

467
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,640
We have another world that can
do anything they want.

468
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,000
They can do disgusting things
with with young women that are

469
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,160
underage and get away with it.
Black market deals between

470
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,040
governments and, and I mean, I
mean, you know, arms deals

471
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,120
between governments.
I mean, we know that Epstein was

472
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,880
related to Iran Contra and we
know that I mean, there was

473
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,640
quite a bit that he was that he
participated in as far as as far

474
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,360
as Internet global politics, you
know, and.

475
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,600
Yeah, but it's not only Epstein.
It's it's we have a history of

476
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,600
that, Yeah.
Certainly.

477
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,680
Under Reagan, you know, under
every president, yes.

478
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,320
Therefore, there's distrust of
the elite in Washington.

479
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,120
By some, they're not, you know,
a core of his supporter.

480
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,800
Trump's supporters distrust
Washington totally.

481
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:47,560
He distrust professors like me.
It's good, even though I come

482
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:53,280
from a small rural community in
Oregon, you know, they, they

483
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,920
think I'm an elitist that went
to one of the Ivy League

484
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,280
schools.
And by the way, many of the

485
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,560
people in his cabinet went to
Ivy League schools, as you know,

486
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,640
and they don't talk about it.
If there are elites, there are

487
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,120
elites always in government
because we have a meritocracy.

488
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,440
If you do well in a particular
area, you get selected.

489
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,800
And that's still true.
Yeah.

490
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,400
Under.
Under Trump, Although you have

491
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,000
to he totally loyal to Trump,
there's nobody really standing

492
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,040
up to him.
You saw it happen with Marjorie

493
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,000
Taylor Green.
The second she stood up to him,

494
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,280
she was she was out.
That was it.

495
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,600
Yeah, but she may, she may not
be out.

496
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,200
The party is splitting a little
bit.

497
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,360
And she's America first type.
And he's getting us involved in

498
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,320
a variety of external things.
Bombing.

499
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,520
Yeah.
Iran going into Venezuela.

500
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,880
I'm not making a value judgment
about those things.

501
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,520
But he's, you know, he's, he's
expanding.

502
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,080
You believe that he should have
had to go to Congress in order

503
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,200
to do in order to do the
Venezuela strike to kidnap

504
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,360
Maduro?
Do you think he needed

505
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,280
Congress's approval?
I think under the War Powers Act

506
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,480
he should have gone to Congress
more quickly.

507
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,640
He should have had a, He should
have met with the 8 leaders,

508
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:16,880
House and the Senate in a top
secret meeting to let them know

509
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,640
what was happening.
And then he, and then he should

510
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,640
go forward with Congress to
approve or not approve the

511
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,560
continuation of the use of force
against another nation.

512
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,200
I, I think that we have a major
drug problem in the United

513
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:34,760
States.
But those boats that he's

514
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,600
bombing were not going, You
know, they, they let me put that

515
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,160
in perspective.
My son has lived in Ecuador for

516
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:43,400
30 years.
OK.

517
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,440
So he's seen what happened to
Ecuador.

518
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,320
He'd like to have a stronger
force going after the six major

519
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,520
gangs that really transformed
that country into a very

520
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,400
dangerous place on the
especially Guayaquil and all the

521
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,440
coast.
And he's influenced me.

522
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,200
I've been there many times.
I can see what it's done.

523
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,000
They shoot mayors, all kinds of
things.

524
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,880
There should be some action
inter, you know, inter

525
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,680
interjecting our force with the
approval of Ecuador that Ecuador

526
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,760
wants it to deal with that.
But to but to go after these

527
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,560
boats the way they are without
due process, in my opinion,

528
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,000
without the rule of law is not
right.

529
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,280
We had the Coast Guard stopping
these boats for many years and

530
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,920
submarines and and arresting
people when they saw evidence

531
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:40,640
and due process with those
people.

532
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:46,440
But but if you're going from
Venezuela to Trinidad in a

533
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,040
little fishing boat.
With some trace amounts of

534
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,800
marijuana and like, nothing to
do with fentanyl or heroin or

535
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,920
cocaine or anything like that.
That's right.

536
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,840
Used to be it was fentanyl, but
it wasn't.

537
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,080
None of it was fentanyl.
Then it was cocaine.

538
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,600
Oh no, it's not cocaine.
It's something else.

539
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,040
It's.
It's just something's legal in

540
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,320
half the states of the country
and medicinally available and

541
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,040
like that and like another 10
states.

542
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,320
It's it's, it undermines trust
in government, It undermines

543
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,719
what's going on.
Although there are a lot of

544
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,679
people say, yeah, we got to go
after drugs.

545
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,719
This is going after drugs.
It's symbolic more than real.

546
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,000
Right back to the point.
Yes.

547
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,239
Where we were about what he ran
on and what he's doing.

548
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,440
I think that he most
importantly, he didn't run on

549
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,639
this.
He's really wiped out Article

550
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:38,400
one of the Constitution
primarily on the on the power of

551
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,719
the purse.
And we still don't have a major

552
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:46,239
case before the Supreme Court
decided yet about whether it is

553
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:52,400
OK for him to impound money
unconstitutionally, in other

554
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,360
words, not spend it.
That's been authorized and

555
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,440
appropriate.
Congress needs to get together

556
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,840
to push back on that.
But the Republicans are not with

557
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,760
the Democrats on that.
So that's the problem.

558
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,320
I helped draft part of the
Budget Impoundment Control Act

559
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,480
of 1973.
Title 10 of that act is on

560
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,560
impoundment.
There's ways to impound money

561
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,200
legally.
Recisions and deferrals.

562
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,000
Recisions rescinded completely.
Deferrals defer for a year.

563
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,960
He's only had one rescission
message that went to the Hill.

564
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,640
It barely passed by one vote the
rest of the time.

565
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,720
Vogt, who's head of the OMB,
executive director of OMB and

566
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,880
and editor and author of many
chapters of the Heritage

567
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:40,280
Foundation's 2025 plan, has done
it unilaterally.

568
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,680
He has cut off money for AID
Luke unilaterally.

569
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,600
You may disagree with the AID,
but there's a way to change it.

570
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,360
There's a way to change the law.
They've shut down the Peace

571
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,800
Institute created through a
partnership by legislative

572
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:03,120
action and private sector
support and cut off money for it

573
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,200
illegally under Article One of
the Constitution.

574
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,040
The power of the purse belongs
with Congress.

575
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,840
The Congress currently has had
no oversight hearings on these

576
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,480
things.
They have no, they have no guts

577
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,800
to stand up against him behind
the scenes and I know this

578
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,440
because I have over 200 former
students working on the Hill.

579
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,320
Wow.
For years and four members of

580
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,320
Congress behind the scenes, the
Republicans poor mouth him all

581
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,600
the time and they, you know,
they say he's terrible, he's a

582
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,480
dictator, he's fascist, He's not
doing Republicans are saying

583
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,880
this, but they're not willing to
stand up against him because

584
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:44,800
they're worried they'll get
primary.

585
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,240
They're worried that the base,
which is far right in their

586
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:49,920
case, will come out against
them.

587
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,040
Sure.
Like with Congresswoman Green.

588
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,520
And so they don't do anything
about it.

589
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,960
So I see cracks in that right
now in terms of what he's doing

590
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,160
and how he's behaving.
I think most Americans you'll

591
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:11,400
see did not want us to invade or
buy Greenland.

592
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:17,480
I mean, that's that's gone now.
Maybe they don't want us to

593
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:24,280
break up at 80 year successful
coalition of western

594
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,440
democracies.
Under NATO.

595
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,040
Under NATO.
OK, OK.

596
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,200
I could hear, I could hear
arguments both way about that

597
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,800
for sure.
Sure, but but this, I'm saying

598
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,400
this, polls show that most
Americans want to continue.

599
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:37,600
OK, cool.
OK.

600
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,880
And then also change it, you
know, but not blow it apart.

601
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,000
So we're sorry.
So we end up with partners from

602
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,600
China and Russia.
Some people say, I don't think I

603
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,000
think that's an extreme,
although his position with Putin

604
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,680
certainly is very different than
previous presidents.

605
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,520
Sure.
But where am I going with this?

606
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,040
Not only the Poor Powers Act is
being ignored by the executive,

607
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,160
the power of the purse is being
ignored, and also the power of

608
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,800
Congress over.
Over.

609
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,960
Trade policy over.
Tariffs.

610
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:20,800
Tariffs with our friends as well
as with our enemies like China.

611
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,600
They have the right, but they
also have the responsibility to

612
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,240
stand up and do something.
They haven't.

613
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,600
The Supreme Court's going to
come up with a decision about

614
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,840
that.
It looks like from the

615
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,720
questioning about the tariff
issues and the role of Congress

616
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,600
that they're leaning against
this president's position,

617
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:45,800
although they've been very timid
about about challenging, right.

618
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,000
But he didn't run on getting rid
of article one of the

619
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,680
Constitution.
Although Congress is always a

620
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,760
very unpopular institution
generally except for their

621
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,040
member, you know, if you come
from a district.

622
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,600
Oh yeah, we love our member, but
Congress is the problem.

623
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,800
Because how much blame
corruption that people just see

624
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,680
it?
Yeah, and it's the corruption.

625
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,680
You're not going to like this,
but the corruption is not as

626
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,160
deep and as extensive as it
seems.

627
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,960
Because the headlines When you
see headlines about what ICE is

628
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:27,440
doing or headlines about FEMA's
mismanagement, that doesn't mean

629
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,400
the whole thing is that way.
Sure.

630
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:35,240
So I know many, many members so
who certainly never crossed the

631
00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:39,640
line in a shade of grey
ethically or any other ways, but

632
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,280
there are some, they're really
pushing it.

633
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,240
There's some people that it
seems to be not the sharpest

634
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:50,200
tool in the shed that you know,
you know, that speak out.

635
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:51,880
And those are the ones that
speak out frequently.

636
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,080
You don't know the the
workhorses behind the scenes.

637
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,360
So it's unpopular for me to do
this, but I'm going to stand up

638
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,920
for the institution.
I love the institution, OK.

639
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,760
We just need to have better ways
of getting more moderate

640
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,080
selected and better ways for
them to get some guts and stand

641
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:09,960
up.
Yes.

642
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,400
For the rights of the people
through Congress, and they're

643
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,840
not doing it right now.
OK, wonderful.

644
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,840
I think that's and I actually, I
really do appreciate your

645
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,440
optimism.
And I like that because I've

646
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,240
spoken to a couple of people,
for example, after, you know,

647
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,960
Trump had gotten shot at and
after Charlie Kirk got

648
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,280
assassinated.
And I was asking, you know,

649
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,040
everyone's making a big deal.
What's Secret Service doing?

650
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:35,320
And it's the failed year of
security.

651
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,240
And I said for every, every
failure, think about how many

652
00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:40,760
hundreds of thousands of cases
that they had prevented that you

653
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,000
don't hear about, that you don't
know anything about, you know,

654
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,560
and the same thing goes with our
institutions.

655
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,760
Think about, you know, that,
that the, the, and this also

656
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,160
goes with polarization, I
suppose that polarization is the

657
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,560
stuff that grabs people's eyes.
And so the people that are doing

658
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,920
the good, quiet, healthy work
aren't getting that same level

659
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,400
of of speculation, I suppose.
Yeah, they don't get the news.

660
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:03,240
No, they.
Don't get the headlines.

661
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,960
And I'm glad you said that about
the Secret Service.

662
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:11,880
They they've had some problems.
I used to be an outside speaker

663
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,800
that came in to speak at the
Secret Service Academy.

664
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,080
I did that for 15 years.
So I've met a lot of those

665
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,160
people.
I learned from them about what

666
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,480
they're doing.
You are absolutely right.

667
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:30,240
There are 10s of thousands of
threats every month just on

668
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,480
presidents and former
presidents.

669
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,920
And now there are thousands of
threats on members of Congress.

670
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,400
They're overwhelmed.
They're under budget.

671
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:45,160
They have a, a new world of
threats coming online that they

672
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,120
have to deal with, a huge
bureaucracy to deal with that.

673
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,920
It's amazing that we haven't had
other really tragic situations

674
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,880
and we may have more.
So I, you know, most of them are

675
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:03,760
doing, doing a very good job,
but sometimes one or two don't

676
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,120
and then that becomes the
headline.

677
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,200
That's my point.
Yeah, excellent.

678
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,440
Can you actually explain for
anyone that doesn't understand?

679
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,600
You mentioned this a couple of
times the midterms and how that

680
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,960
works please?
Sure, the midterms are elections

681
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,680
between the elections of
presidents.

682
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,360
They come up every two years.
Every member of the house is up

683
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,640
for for re election and 1/3 of
the Senate.

684
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:36,200
There are 34 this time that are
up for election, and this time

685
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:42,080
we have a situation where the
incoming party controlling the

686
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,440
House and Senate and the
presidency, unified party

687
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:51,600
government is under threat of a
huge turnover of of New

688
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,640
Democrats.
So on average from 1946 to

689
00:42:54,640 --> 00:43:00,320
present, the midterms have shown
that in this situation, there's

690
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:05,760
a turnover of 27 seats to the
out to the out party 27.

691
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,760
This time there'll there'll be a
huge turnover unless things can

692
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,400
happen.
I mean, things can happen with

693
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,920
this president every day.
It may help him, it may not help

694
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,280
him.
And with respect to ICE and a

695
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,640
variety of other things, right
now he's his popularity is, is

696
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,560
going down.
He's very His popularity has

697
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,440
gone down, as most presidents do
the first term.

698
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,880
They've just gone down.
Yeah, Obama happened to Obama

699
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:37,440
too.
Yeah, that's right.

700
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:45,200
And in the midterm, he lost over
50 seats, and so that's set a

701
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,120
record.
What?

702
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,680
What causes that what causes
something such dramatic turnover

703
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,800
is that policy is that
impressions is that, you know,

704
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,280
running based on idea and not
being able to quite didn't

705
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,560
happen yet and so you lose
people become disenchanted.

706
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,200
What causes such a dramatic
overturn?

707
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,760
All of those things, Obama's
case, it was a perceived

708
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,720
overreach in terms of new
policies that he was pushing

709
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:14,960
through like the Affordable Care
Act, so-called Obamacare.

710
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,760
People didn't understand it and,
and the opposition went against

711
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,680
it in simple ways.
They like certain things.

712
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,240
But for example, right now, if
you call, if people say do you

713
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:32,080
like Obamacare, there's a huge
percent say no, but it's the

714
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,000
same thing as the Affordable
Care Act.

715
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,080
And they say, Oh, yeah, we're
for the Affordable Care Act, you

716
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:37,840
know?
So that's right.

717
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,600
We don't like surveillance, but
we like the Patriot Act.

718
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,600
Right, exactly.
So you've got it.

719
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:51,600
So it's policy, it's it's also
style of leadership that maybe

720
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,840
people don't like.
It's Vince internationally, it's

721
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,160
the economy stupid.
If the economy doesn't don't go

722
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,120
well, you're going to it's going
to hurt you.

723
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:08,200
There are a variety of reasons
for for the in, in party in the

724
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,400
White House losing seats in
Congress.

725
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,400
Now, right now, it's all of
those things with respect to

726
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,800
Trump.
And I'm not going to predict

727
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,080
what's going to happen, but all
of the data show that it's that

728
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,760
he's in he's in serious trouble
and he's he's flooding the zones

729
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:31,320
with all kinds of new ideas and
things to get people to focus on

730
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:37,800
that, not focus on Epstein,
although he gave in on that, but

731
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,120
now he doesn't.
Oh, why are we still talking

732
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,520
about that?
Focusing on things like

733
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,400
Greenland, which, you know, why
don't we?

734
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:47,920
Why don't we?
You know, I go to Iceland often

735
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,240
because I knew the ambassador,
he invites me to give speeches.

736
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:56,160
This thing, we gave up a base in
Iceland and they protested us

737
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,400
leaving.
They wanted us to stay.

738
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,360
And now I know from briefings
that the Soviet, pardon me, the

739
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:08,200
Russians are fishing in their in
their fishing area.

740
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,960
They have overflights.
They have military ships that

741
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,840
come within their boundaries,
have all kinds of problems.

742
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,480
But we're talking about
Greenland.

743
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,840
Why don't we talk about Iceland?
You know, and that happened

744
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,200
under a long time ago.
It happened under George W Bush

745
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,680
when we got rid of that base.
But at Keflevic is the name of

746
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,920
the base.
So that doesn't come up in the

747
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,800
press.
At all, Not at all.

748
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,360
And if you're if you're what's
now known, like what's now, it's

749
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,000
almost a derogatory term these
days, but a neo con and you're

750
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,040
making an argument for, hey, if
America is not the Big Brother,

751
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,840
then like you know, then there's
a power vacuum.

752
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,080
This would be a case in point
for them, wouldn't it?

753
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:57,440
Yeah, well, yeah, Neo Con made a
lot of difference when we had

754
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,800
the Soviet Union.
Yes, a huge threat.

755
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:06,120
Sure, now Russia is a threat.
Certainly, I have 21 former

756
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,280
students that are Ukrainians
that are suffering in Ukraine

757
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,000
right now.
Some of them have been fighting

758
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,000
since 2014.
I get emails from them so I'm

759
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,120
biased about Ukraine.
OK.

760
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,720
I, I want to, I think we should
help them and NATO should help

761
00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:28,280
them stand up against, against a
bully against, against Putin or

762
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,480
he'll go after Lithuania.
I've been to Lithuania also, and

763
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,800
1/3 of their population is
ethnic Russian.

764
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,240
And he's going to say, oh, just
like in your game, we're going

765
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:42,600
to go for that.
Back to the point, we can't be

766
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:47,880
the cop everywhere in the world,
but we can set up certain

767
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:53,920
positions where we should, where
we should stop aggression.

768
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,200
And that's certainly happen
happening in Ukraine.

769
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,520
I I certainly hope that we have
peace there because the people

770
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,800
that I know have families, Yeah,
they've been seriously hurt.

771
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,720
Their property's been blown up.
And of course, we don't hear

772
00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:12,200
about Ukraine anymore.
No, it's that no white light.

773
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:17,080
Anymore.
The white light of of the media

774
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:22,600
is was on Greenland.
It's on, you know, it's on

775
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,280
Minneapolis, it's on a variety
of other things, but they're

776
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,160
still fighting and suffering.
Yeah, yeah, it's terrible.

777
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:29,080
Where?
Was I going with that?

778
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:30,920
I'm sorry I slipped off.
That's OK.

779
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,120
We were talking about how the
neocons would would the neocons?

780
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:39,400
Yeah, as as Iceland as as a case
in point for their philosophy.

781
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,960
Yeah, Wait a minute, neocons.
Yeah, it's it's an unpopular

782
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:46,600
position.
It is the.

783
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:52,600
Position within the jail track
part pre to a certain extent was

784
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:57,240
the neo body was tough on
communism and tough on on Cuba,

785
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:03,640
tough on on Soviet Union.
Now it's different.

786
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:11,800
It's really people that say, OK,
if you don't stand up now with

787
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:18,640
bullies like this one
circumstance in in Ukraine, then

788
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,960
then he will then take over
another country.

789
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,880
Now sometimes that's right,
sometimes it's wrong.

790
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:32,040
In the the Domino's theory in in
Vietnam was wrong.

791
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:37,640
Yeah.
And we lost a lot of American,

792
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:39,720
Great American soldiers there
for what?

793
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:43,880
So they can sell Coca-Cola and
build our Nike shoes?

794
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:49,400
I mean help, I mean so.
That's that's always the

795
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,320
consequence post war.
You know, throw a dart at a map

796
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,280
and you can find out where we
put, you know, we're even to 1

797
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,080
where Nike and Coke and and
Chevron have all filled in the,

798
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,640
you know, the empty areas that
got bombed out.

799
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,840
And where?
And then in Washington, DC area,

800
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,120
we get all kinds of great
restaurants, Vietnamese

801
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,680
restaurants.
Oh my goodness.

802
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,040
Iranian restaurants.
Can I ask?

803
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:18,480
Afghan restaurants.
I'm serious.

804
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:18,840
You.
Know.

805
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,480
Yeah, Yeah.
Can I ask your opinion?

806
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,440
And this can be brief, but I
just want to know your thoughts.

807
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,160
I know that it's it's a famous
story or relatively, I guess

808
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,240
infamous, depending what
perspective you're looking at it

809
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:33,880
from, but that Putin actually
asked to join NATO.

810
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,800
He asked George Bush to I think
junior to join NATO.

811
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,440
And what do you think would have
happened if he if that if that

812
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,480
was accepted?
I'm not capable of.

813
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,960
That's not my area of expertise.
I don't know what would have

814
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,240
happened.
OK, that's fine.

815
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:56,320
Watching his behavior, he's
broken all kinds of treaties and

816
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:05,120
agreements, First taking, you
know, 1/3 of Ukraine in 2014.

817
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,280
There were agreements, you know,
that he wouldn't do that.

818
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,800
So I wouldn't trust him.
OK, bottom line, I wouldn't

819
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,200
trust him, but I don't, I don't
know what would happen.

820
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:19,320
I know that war is is absolutely
terrible and you should try to

821
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,960
avoid it.
And I think that maybe Obama was

822
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:32,360
trying to do that by not pushing
back on Russia 2014 because

823
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:38,520
absolutely that's that was their
major naval base that that for

824
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:43,720
Russia.
And that would have maybe

825
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:46,240
triggered a major war.
And I think he was being very

826
00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:48,760
careful.
But also, you got, you know,

827
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:53,240
looks what look what happened.
I mean, it continues and tragedy

828
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,240
continues.
Yeah, for Ukraine, but also for

829
00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:59,720
Russia and Russian troops.
Yeah, certainly.

830
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,600
But this is an area that I'm not
an expert on.

831
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:04,520
No problem.
I was just curious.

832
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,240
Yeah, sure.
From the perspective of former

833
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:09,720
students, I've been to Ukraine
four times, OK?

834
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,840
I'm very concerned about
corruption in Ukraine and I have

835
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:21,160
been involved in in with
Ukrainians in trying to try to

836
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,640
go after corruption.
And now that the war has been

837
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,640
going on, people haven't thought
about it.

838
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:28,560
But you know, it's it's still
corrupt.

839
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,040
Sure.
Not everywhere, but it's pretty

840
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,720
corrupt.
And that issue will come back

841
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:37,440
once the war is over with no
matter what.

842
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:42,880
Yeah, and we should not forget
that.

843
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,440
We need to clean up, no matter
what kind of regime it is.

844
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:50,000
We need to clean up corruption
because then the people don't

845
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,520
trust government and you know,
you have huge problems, turmoil

846
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,960
as you know.
Yes, as I do.

847
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,520
And that's where actually I want
to lead into, if you don't mind.

848
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,840
I think there's a perfect time
to lead into lobbying and ethics

849
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,160
because I think everyone hears
the word lobbying, you know,

850
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,400
lobbyists and lobbying in the
news and people, I don't know

851
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,000
people really how it works or
what it means.

852
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,160
Or, you know, and people hear
about this evolving door that

853
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:19,120
happens between all sorts of
industries that an industry that

854
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,720
has relation any kind of
regulation and, and you'll see,

855
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:24,120
you'll see a revolving door
there.

856
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:28,160
So can you maybe explain in a
little bit of depth how lobbying

857
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,080
and ethics works, especially,
you know, within the political

858
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,280
system?
Yeah, a lot of people laugh when

859
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,480
I say that I teach a workshop, a
research workshop.

860
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,840
I'm teaching now on ethics and
lobbying and students are

861
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:45,800
looking at ethical problems and
what the law is and how to

862
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,600
improve it.
I've been doing this for 16

863
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,320
years.
I've had a grant to do this and

864
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,600
even though I'm Meritus, which
means I'm retired, I've the Dean

865
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:57,720
said no one can teach this
class.

866
00:53:57,720 --> 00:53:59,560
You have a grant.
We're going to lose the grant

867
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,040
unless you do it.
So I'm doing it and I enjoy it.

868
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:06,160
Great.
Lobbying throughout the world is

869
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,320
a dirty word.
In France, it's a dirty word.

870
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:14,880
In Italy it's a dirty word.
It's not a nice word in the EU.

871
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,920
And I've taught for 16 years on
the European Public Affairs and

872
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:25,040
Advocacy Institute, lobbying in
in a workshop there for two

873
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:31,760
weeks every year.
So I got to know the problems of

874
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:37,320
advocacy lobbying there.
But you know, lobbying is a

875
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:44,920
necessary function in democracy.
It is protected under the 1st

876
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,240
Amendment of our Constitution.
We have freedom of speech,

877
00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:50,480
freedom of assembly freedom,
freedom to petition government

878
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:55,240
for grievances without being
arrested and thrown in jail.

879
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,160
That's under freedom of speech,
all that.

880
00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:59,720
Freedom of speech, freedom of
religion.

881
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,320
It's it is there.
It's it's protected.

882
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:09,840
But when you look at the norm of
reciprocity that I talked about

883
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:15,600
before, scandal is often related
to lobbying.

884
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:21,040
The norm of reciprocity often
drive scandal and then therefore

885
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,400
reform.
What is the norm of reciprocity?

886
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:29,840
It's quid pro quo, a favor or
advantage granted or expected in

887
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,360
return for something, something
for something.

888
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,680
Now we have the perception that,
oh, you give a lot of campaign

889
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,800
contributions to somebody,
they're going to do something

890
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:41,280
for you.
And it's blatant.

891
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:49,000
Right now with the president,
with many members of Congress,

892
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,880
there are rules and regulations,
but some of those rules and

893
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,560
regulations are very, very
vague.

894
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,600
We have super PACs that are
secret.

895
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,760
You don't know who's giving
money to them or how the money

896
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,000
is spent until later.
It's controlled.

897
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,960
It's regulated under the IRS,
not under the Federal Election

898
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:14,760
Commission.
And so we have the perception

899
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,520
as, oh, all you have to do is
bring in like Musk, bring in

900
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,560
$250 million and you're going to
buy an election.

901
00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:24,000
Well, even he even he failed in
many cases where he was

902
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:29,960
supporting people in primaries
that that lost money is not

903
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:34,240
always power.
Political power in America is

904
00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:37,720
taking resources.
It could be money, it could be

905
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:43,080
mobilizing people, it could be
knowledge, it could be a variety

906
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:47,320
of things.
And being able to transform

907
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:53,280
those resources into an action
that you want, minus a

908
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:55,840
resistance.
Frequently in a pluralist

909
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,520
system, you have people on
either side fighting each other

910
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:04,320
with lots of money, and they're
fighting each other to gridlock.

911
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:09,240
Now we have gridlock, much of it
is partisan gridlock between the

912
00:57:09,240 --> 00:57:12,400
two parties, but we have
gridlock between, between

913
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,160
hospitals and doctor
associations and insurance

914
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:19,080
companies.
We have gridlock of the, the

915
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:24,680
cane sugar growers in Florida
and the beet sugar growers in

916
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:28,920
Idaho.
You know, it's, it's throughout

917
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,760
our system.
And when you throw in the

918
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,880
question of reciprocity, well,
we're going to give you a lot of

919
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,320
money to run because you're
doing the right thing for us

920
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:42,600
legally.
We're going to do this.

921
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,080
Then the public begins to think,
well, it's all about money.

922
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:50,720
It's all about these guys.
No, you can more money's wasted

923
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:58,160
in Washington, DC of the of the
$5 billion or more.

924
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:03,240
It's no, wait a minute, it's 14
billion now in lobbying then is

925
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:08,240
used appropriately.
Money just flows in here, but

926
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,400
it's on either side of the of
the issue.

927
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:15,200
And many times firms take it's,
I think it's unethical.

928
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,640
They take people on either side
of an issue and they take the

929
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:20,480
money.
Now, there was a guy by the name

930
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,560
of Jack Abramoff.
Now, Jack Abramoff was a guy who

931
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:28,280
did a whole bunch of illegal
things and went to jail for for

932
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:34,360
five years and 10 months, who
triggered ethics and lobbying

933
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,880
reform in 2006 and seven.
I worked with then Senator Obama

934
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,840
on the reforms, helped draft
some of them and it stemmed from

935
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:46,240
Abramoff, but lots of other
people who were doing things

936
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:50,560
that were illegal or in a shade
of grey ethically.

937
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,040
What would be the?
Example One example is there are

938
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,840
two Native American tribes in
the South.

939
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:06,840
One had a had a a license for a
gambling Oregon, a gambling

940
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:09,840
institution, which they had and
it was doing very well.

941
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,560
And then these are ways to make
a lot of money for tribes and

942
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:14,200
they use it in a variety of
ways.

943
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:22,160
Another one was geographically
close to this tribe in Louisiana

944
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:27,200
and it wanted a license.
Jack Abramoff took both of those

945
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:31,720
as clients.
Unethical, he said.

946
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:36,520
Well, there was a Chinese wall
between the two.

947
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,320
We didn't, you know, we had
different people in the firm

948
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,160
dealing with it.
Well, baloney.

949
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:49,200
They had a conflict of interest.
I had, I taught for 40 years a a

950
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:55,000
seminar called Public Affairs
and Advocacy Institute.

951
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:59,120
It was an institute about
treating, teaching people how to

952
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:03,240
do ethical lobbying and all the
strategies and tactics of direct

953
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:09,560
lobbying, grassroots social
media, all kinds of elements in

954
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,520
it.
I had a student who told me at

955
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:14,000
the end of this two week thing,
he said.

956
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:17,640
Professor Thurber, if I'd only
known what lobbying really was,

957
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:24,720
we would not have given Jack
Abramoff $25 million to support

958
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:29,000
our our cause.
The one who wanted a.

959
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:31,480
A license.
Now this is interesting because

960
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:38,040
Abramoff used that money not for
them, but to illegally fly a

961
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:43,680
delegation of people paid for by
Abramoff to London and then to

962
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:48,440
play golf in Scotland and back,
paying for everything on the

963
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:52,880
trip as long as well as other
things not related to the

964
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,640
lobbying for the Indian tribe,
the Native American tribe.

965
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:00,920
He that's what got him in
trouble and got members of

966
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,640
Congress in trouble.
In fact, just one example, there

967
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:08,720
was a conviction of
Representative Bob nay Nye,

968
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,080
pardon me, He was chairman of a
committee.

969
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,960
He went on this trip, everything
was paid for.

970
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:19,160
That's illegal.
He and then the, the laws were

971
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:23,280
changing even more, but he
wasn't allowed to receive more

972
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:27,000
than $50 a year from one source.
And this was thousands.

973
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:29,920
He went to jail, got convicted,
went to jail.

974
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:35,400
And it was related to Abramoff
bribes also directly to him.

975
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:42,720
So back to the point, the norm
of reciprocity often drives

976
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:48,320
reforms, OK?
Abramoff would help members with

977
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:52,760
campaigns, give them things,
these trips and things, but they

978
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:56,040
would give him information about
what was going on on the

979
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:59,600
committee.
He would offer them jobs also

980
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:02,360
before they left the Hill, which
now is ill.

981
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:04,520
You can't do it.
You got it.

982
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:09,320
The Ethics Committee is watching
this theoretically, and there

983
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:14,040
the reciprocity was.
OK, Chief of staff of the

984
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:17,280
Appropriations subcommittee, you
can have a job with me.

985
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,440
Just help me out a little bit on
this.

986
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:25,600
OK, So that triggered a lot of
scandal.

987
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:29,920
One more scandal and then I'll
get back generally to ethics and

988
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,320
lobbying.
Another example was a was

989
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,240
Representative Duke, his
nickname Duke Cunningham.

990
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,560
OK, Duke Cunningham came from
San Diego.

991
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:44,680
He was chairman of the defense
subcommittee of Appropriations.

992
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:48,640
They used to call it the candy
store, meaning most of the

993
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:53,480
earmarks setting aside money out
of that committee for

994
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:58,560
corporations, for example,
within members districts came.

995
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:00,560
Most of the earmarks came out of
that subcommittee.

996
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:03,720
He was chairman of that
committee.

997
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:13,160
He set aside a $250 million
earmark for a corporation in San

998
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:22,800
Diego to do what to digitized
top secret material for the

999
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,520
Army.
I had students who were in that

1000
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:28,440
division in the Army.
They didn't want it done.

1001
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:35,840
He asked that this corporation
do it and they got a sole source

1002
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:38,840
contract for that.
The corporation bought his house

1003
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:44,120
in San Diego for $750,000 over
market.

1004
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:49,600
They also got him.
They bought him a Rolls Royce

1005
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:53,480
used, but a Rolls Royce and a
lot of antiques and things.

1006
01:03:53,720 --> 01:04:00,560
Well eventually a local reporter
from the San Diego Union saw the

1007
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:01,880
sale.
This is weird.

1008
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,040
What's this corporation?
Well the corporation got this

1009
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:10,760
sole source contract and
therefore there was publicity

1010
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:13,640
about it.
So therefore, the US District

1011
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:16,040
Attorney was forced to do
something about it.

1012
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:19,200
They didn't want to do it, but
they they indicted him.

1013
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:20,640
He was convicted.
He went to jail.

1014
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:22,920
Good I.
Don't even.

1015
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,960
Think that the digitizing
necessarily a problem, you know,

1016
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,800
I mean I, I, I, I'm sure your
your army contracts would

1017
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:30,120
probably know better than I do,
but.

1018
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:33,080
Well, they didn't want it.
They didn't want it done.

1019
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,640
It wasn't needed.
It was marginal stuff to

1020
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:42,640
digitize a bunch of old army top
secret stuff.

1021
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:46,120
They had other priorities.
What it did is it took other

1022
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:49,520
priorities that were more
important in their in their

1023
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:53,120
division away from them and they
had to do this other thing thing

1024
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:55,520
with a sole with a sole source
contract.

1025
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:57,280
No, yeah, that's.
That's more of a problem.

1026
01:04:57,400 --> 01:04:59,240
That's more of a problem to me.
Serious problem.

1027
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:03,960
So anyway, there were lots of
causes for reform, but much of

1028
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,680
it dealt with reciprocity and
scandal.

1029
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:10,720
I won't go through all of them.
The latest, I'll go through one

1030
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:13,720
more.
Senator Menendez, New Jersey.

1031
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:14,880
Yes.
Yeah.

1032
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:18,800
He broke rules of the Foreign
Agents Registration Act.

1033
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:22,160
He broke rules of not paying
taxes.

1034
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:26,520
He had bars of gold hidden
throughout his house.

1035
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:31,120
And he blamed his wife, you
know, for it, for setting this

1036
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,120
up.
The connection was with

1037
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:39,400
Egyptians who were.
Who were importing beef?

1038
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,480
I won't go through all the
details, but he.

1039
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:45,120
I remember this story.
Yeah, he's convicted just

1040
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:47,640
recently, and his wife was
convicted.

1041
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:53,280
He's asking for a pardon now
from Trump, even though he was

1042
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:55,040
the Democrat.
He was chair of the Foreign

1043
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:56,840
Foreign Affairs Committee in the
Senate.

1044
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:58,320
It was a big deal.
Yeah.

1045
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:03,480
So it continues.
It's not widespread in my

1046
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:07,360
opinion, from knowing the
institution really well, but it

1047
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:12,760
continues and people never learn
and they get they get corrupted

1048
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:15,400
because frequently an elected
public official doesn't have a

1049
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,120
lot of money.
You.

1050
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,480
Know and they're living on the
margin and they have this

1051
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:25,840
opportunity to help somebody and
that person will help them So

1052
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:27,600
one more.
Yes.

1053
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:34,400
One more is that there were
dozens of people that should

1054
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:37,960
have registered under the
Foreign Nations Registration

1055
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:40,040
Act.
There are two there are two laws

1056
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,760
that apply primary laws that
apply to lobbying in the United

1057
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:46,200
States.
One is the Lobby Disclosure Act

1058
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:50,200
as amended in 2007 and the
Foreign Agents Registration Act.

1059
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:58,160
Manafort Paul Manafort was was
chair of Trump's campaign

1060
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:00,400
committee.
He was campaign director.

1061
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:05,520
He had clients in Ukraine but
also several in Africa.

1062
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:09,400
He did not register on the
foreign as Foreign Agents

1063
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:11,360
Registration Act.
That is a felony.

1064
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:17,600
OK.
He was convicted and convicted

1065
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:22,320
of a felony.
Then Trump pardoned him

1066
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:24,400
afterwards.
Manafort is still around and

1067
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:27,880
lobbying, but he was convicted
of felony what's what's the

1068
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:31,080
Foreign Agents Registration Act.
It started in 1938 because there

1069
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:34,800
were Nazis in the United States
around lobbying to keep us out

1070
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:41,000
of World War 2.
And they had rallies at Madison

1071
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:42,280
Square Garden, all kinds of
things.

1072
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:43,280
We didn't know what was going
on.

1073
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:48,800
So this requires them to show
who they are, how much money

1074
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:51,840
they're spending on what.
And that's what we have now.

1075
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:55,480
But now the president has said,
Trump has said, well, we're not

1076
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:59,280
going to enforce the Foreign
Agents Registration Act except

1077
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:05,680
in cases of espionage, not in
not in cases of of lobbying,

1078
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:10,120
only espionage.
So now the Saudis have over 100

1079
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:13,080
firms in the United in
Washington, DC that they've

1080
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:18,319
hired, including Ballard from
from Florida, hired to represent

1081
01:08:18,319 --> 01:08:20,279
them.
And they're not registering

1082
01:08:20,319 --> 01:08:22,279
under the Foreign Registration
Act.

1083
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:29,439
So the the ethical issues and
law illegal activities continue

1084
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:31,399
anyway.
We still need it.

1085
01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:36,880
We just need to enforce the law
under the LDA and, and, and

1086
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:42,920
Farah and have more transparency
about what's going on and clean

1087
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:47,319
things up because we need the
expertise and information coming

1088
01:08:47,319 --> 01:08:53,399
from lobbyists in the process of
making decisions in a democracy.

1089
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:57,160
So a lot of people say no on
that unless it's about their,

1090
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:01,520
their, their group like AARP.
No, no, they aren't lobbyists.

1091
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:03,600
They're lobbyists.
The Catholic Church is a

1092
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:04,640
lobbyist.
Sure, sure.

1093
01:09:05,319 --> 01:09:07,840
You know, we have 10s of
thousands of lobbying

1094
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:09,439
organizations.
We need them.

1095
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:13,240
We just need to enforce the law
with respect to what they're

1096
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:15,640
doing.
I'll probably talk too much

1097
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:17,319
about things that you don't want
to hear.

1098
01:09:17,319 --> 01:09:18,960
But no, not at all.
Not at all.

1099
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:21,240
These are great.
These are great case and points.

1100
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:27,240
But I would, I think it would be
remiss to to point out that and

1101
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:30,359
perhaps we need some kind of
like middle ground or solution,

1102
01:09:30,359 --> 01:09:33,160
just like we don't live in a
pure capitalist society, because

1103
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:39,040
that would be just a mess.
We need to, yeah, there has to,

1104
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:41,880
yeah.
Lobbying.

1105
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:46,800
Lobbying as it stands continues
down that same issue that we

1106
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,920
discussed earlier with with the
elite versus the regular folk,

1107
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:52,439
which is that if it's just going
to be a matter of dollars and

1108
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:56,400
cents, then then you can just
keep looking the other way as

1109
01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:57,800
long as you know, as long as
people are.

1110
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:02,400
Corporations and unions and
individuals can give an

1111
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:10,360
unlimited amount of money to
campaigns if the if, it's if,

1112
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:13,840
if, if it's regulated under the
IRS.

1113
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:17,240
So what's happened is that that
just opened the doors.

1114
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:21,760
It's like a Mississippian flood
stage that people stopped giving

1115
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:25,480
regulated money they'd still
given.

1116
01:10:25,480 --> 01:10:28,560
There's limits on what an
individual can give and limits

1117
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:31,360
what political action committee
can give.

1118
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:33,360
And I won't go through all of
those.

1119
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:35,680
And it was working pretty well
until the Supreme Court said,

1120
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:41,800
wait a minute, corporations can
can give them and unions and

1121
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,120
individuals can give an
unlimited amount in a different

1122
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:50,120
regulatory process through the
IRS, OK, through the Internal

1123
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:56,640
Revenue Service, that opened the
gates to super PACs, huge PACs

1124
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:59,360
that had hundreds of millions of
dollars.

1125
01:10:59,880 --> 01:11:01,520
And you don't know where the
money came from.

1126
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:06,200
It could come from Soros on the
left or come from Musk now.

1127
01:11:07,440 --> 01:11:11,160
Now they're openly saying how
much they're giving, like Musk

1128
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:13,160
did it and he gets credit for
it.

1129
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:16,440
With Trump, it's no longer a
controversy.

1130
01:11:16,440 --> 01:11:18,480
We're going in the opposite
direction now.

1131
01:11:18,480 --> 01:11:22,400
I feel that there should be
limits on contributions, as we

1132
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:27,320
had for many years under the
Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act.

1133
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:31,240
It was bipartisan, and that's
what that's what got changed by

1134
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:33,520
the Supreme Court.
I think that needs to be

1135
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:39,400
clarified.
So with respect to money, it's

1136
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:43,920
not only money.
We have shadow lobbyists there.

1137
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:48,360
There about 14,000 federal
registered lobbyists.

1138
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:52,160
And by some estimates, the
metropolitan area, Washington

1139
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:57,520
has as many as 80,000 people
involved in advocacy because

1140
01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:02,080
there are many things that are
not regulated under the Lobby

1141
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:05,880
Disclosure Act.
So the question is, what is a

1142
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:12,440
lobbyist?
And it's it's defined clearly in

1143
01:12:12,440 --> 01:12:15,840
the LDA.
And there's lots of loopholes if

1144
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:20,240
you, if you are a strategic
advisor, if you're a grassroots

1145
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,240
organizer, if you're a coalition
builder and you need all those

1146
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:28,000
things to win, if you're a
pollster, if you run an

1147
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:33,120
association here, if you are in
a law firm and you're doing

1148
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:37,480
regulatory lobbying before,
before an agency or you're a

1149
01:12:37,480 --> 01:12:42,720
think tank in the think tank
like Heritage Foundation or AAI

1150
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:45,760
or Brookings or others are
advocating, you don't have to

1151
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:50,760
register under the law.
So 14,000 registered lobbyists

1152
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:57,360
has been a level for many, many
years, for 20 years, but we have

1153
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:00,080
huge amounts of lobbying going
on.

1154
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:03,280
Yeah, far more than 14,000,
yeah.

1155
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,320
Yeah.
And so it's the tip of the

1156
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:09,680
iceberg and the money is the tip
of the iceberg cause only those

1157
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:11,800
who register.
So how much money that they're

1158
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:13,240
spending?
It's a lot of money.

1159
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:21,040
So we need, I think, a little
more regulation over who's

1160
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:24,080
lobbying, who isn't lobbying.
Now the definition of a

1161
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:25,800
lobbyist.
I'll go.

1162
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,160
You know, I go through it very
quickly under the LDA.

1163
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:32,240
It's two contacts with members
of Congress and staff, anybody

1164
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:36,920
on the Hill that's paid.
It's two contacts with political

1165
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:38,680
appointees in the executive
branch.

1166
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:44,560
It's about 8000 people and it's
spending 20% of your time on

1167
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:49,520
lobbying in contacts and efforts
to support those contacts

1168
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:53,200
quarterly.
Well, so there's this phenomenon

1169
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:55,560
in Washington and it's called
the 19% club.

1170
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:58,920
OK.
If you meet these other criteria

1171
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:04,760
and then you only are spending
19% of your time, you don't have

1172
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:06,680
to register.
So there's a whole lot of people

1173
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:09,760
not registering and they watch
that very carefully because it's

1174
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:18,280
audited by the GAO and there's a
limit 3500 income per lobbyist

1175
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:22,240
quarterly and 16,000 for an
organization quarterly.

1176
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:27,880
Look at Ballard, it's a firm,
you know, out of Florida,

1177
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:34,600
$16,000 quarterly is nothing.
You know, there's billions

1178
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:37,160
flowing and including from
Harvard.

1179
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:41,680
I had a call from people at
Harvard saying students for the

1180
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:45,840
Harvard Crimson.
They said, well, you know, why

1181
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:50,000
are they hiring Ballard?
Because it's associated with

1182
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:54,720
with Susie Wiles and the chief
of staff and the president.

1183
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:57,360
That seems crazy.
And I said, well, half of

1184
01:14:57,360 --> 01:14:59,640
lobbying is figuring out what's
going on.

1185
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:04,600
Yeah, sounds like it.
And that's they hire people,

1186
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:06,880
hire firms just to tell you
what's going on.

1187
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:09,120
And then you can make a decision
about what you're going to do.

1188
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:13,760
Most people think lobbying is
you're going and out of the

1189
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:15,200
lobby.
You go in and talk to a member

1190
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:19,560
and try to persuade them.
Well, no, it's, it's figuring

1191
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:23,600
out what's going on.
It's doing policy analysis, it's

1192
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:26,520
doing opposition research.
It's grassroots, it's coalition

1193
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:29,120
building.
It's using social media.

1194
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,640
You have to have all those
things now.

1195
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:34,680
Probably what Harvard was doing
is they just wanted to figure

1196
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:38,280
out what the hell was going to
go go on in the department of of

1197
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:40,800
Education with respect to higher
education.

1198
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:43,640
Boy, me on the mind.
Yeah, right.

1199
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:47,000
Yeah.
So I can go on and on.

1200
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:50,960
I just gave you half of a
semester of a seminar.

1201
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:54,240
I love you.
That's amazing.

1202
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:55,760
It's amazing.
We're going to have to quit here

1203
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:58,840
in a second, right?
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

1204
01:15:59,920 --> 01:16:04,240
If I can ask for your last
thoughts on positive steps or

1205
01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:07,880
helpful steps that you think
people can take to try and to

1206
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:09,840
try and have a positive
influence or impact.

1207
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:12,320
Can I, can I, can I bother you
to for your thoughts on that

1208
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:14,400
before you go?
Well, first and foremost,

1209
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:17,080
everybody should get out and
vote no matter what.

1210
01:16:17,440 --> 01:16:20,600
Even though they think it's a
fixed deal is not It isn't

1211
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:24,120
always a fixed outcome in the
primary of the general election

1212
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:28,600
vote OK.
And so people your age and and

1213
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:31,600
younger that are eligible vote
they're voting at very low

1214
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:33,200
rates.
They're they're alienated.

1215
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:37,760
My granddaughter, by the way,
goes to school at Eckert College

1216
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:44,360
in Tampa and she is a political
science major.

1217
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:46,920
She's going on to law school.
I tried to talk her out of it,

1218
01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:50,960
but she's law school always by
beta capital all that.

1219
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:56,400
So anyway, she in the last
election when Biden was running

1220
01:16:56,400 --> 01:16:59,120
against Trump, she said I can't
vote for those two old men.

1221
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:01,080
They don't represent what I
want.

1222
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:05,800
So there's a whole lot of that.
She eventually voted, I think,

1223
01:17:06,440 --> 01:17:11,880
you know, but but there's
there's an alien nation that's

1224
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:15,160
there breakthrough the
alienation, have hope, have

1225
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:16,840
faith that it makes a
difference.

1226
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:19,280
That's the that's the most
important thing.

1227
01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:24,360
I also think hope comes from
there are guardrails in our

1228
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:27,920
democracy still, even though it
seems like there isn't, even

1229
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:30,440
though a lot of people saying
our democracy is failing,

1230
01:17:30,440 --> 01:17:34,280
certainly it's challenged.
Guardrails are the courts, the

1231
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:37,080
federal courts, but also the
Supreme Court, but also the

1232
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:39,640
guardrails are to organize,
organize, organize.

1233
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:48,360
Saul Alinsky of Organizer in
Chicago in the 30s forties said

1234
01:17:48,440 --> 01:17:53,320
organize, organize, organize,
and he helped do community

1235
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:55,880
organizing to push back, to
change things.

1236
01:17:57,280 --> 01:18:00,800
Become involved.
Don't become so alienated that

1237
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:03,640
you're not involved and you just
say it doesn't make any

1238
01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:06,040
difference.
It's all bad to become

1239
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:12,680
organized.
Also, make sure that you go and

1240
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:15,240
it sounds silly, but go to the
town meetings.

1241
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:19,200
Stand up to people who are who
are running that maybe you

1242
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:21,040
disagree with in a respectful
way.

1243
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:26,120
Don't squirt things on them.
You know, don't be violent, but

1244
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,640
stand up and in a respectful way
and push back.

1245
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:30,640
That makes a difference.
I hope so come.

1246
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:33,080
Back from those town meetings
and say, well, wait a minute,

1247
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:35,440
there are a whole lot of people
who had good questions.

1248
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:39,320
Humphrey used to get a lot of
good ideas from going to town

1249
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:42,920
meetings in Minnesota but also
around the United States.

1250
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:46,440
And Thurber, take care of that.
That's a great idea.

1251
01:18:46,440 --> 01:18:48,640
And so we go with an amendment
or something.

1252
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:56,080
So get involved that way.
Also there was the phrase all

1253
01:18:56,080 --> 01:19:00,360
politics is local by Tip
O'Neill, former speaker, speaker

1254
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:04,560
of the House from Massachusetts.
Well, now all politics seems to

1255
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:07,560
be national.
These national things overwhelm,

1256
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:11,440
but all politics, in the end,
it's it's local.

1257
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:13,360
Yeah, there are these national
issues.

1258
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:18,760
And so get involved locally with
elected public office.

1259
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:21,640
That's where the hope comes
from.

1260
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:24,000
Or people like you and people
your age.

1261
01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:29,920
It's time for you to take over
from the old white men or now

1262
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:34,320
women in many cases, or African
Americans that are in their 80s.

1263
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:37,600
It's time to push them out and
and change things.

1264
01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:45,200
I think our democracy is being
challenged, especially article

1265
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:49,560
one of the Constitution.
The Republicans have to stand up

1266
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:52,680
and and go forward with what
they believe in.

1267
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:59,280
And they are now they're cracks
with respect to the shootings in

1268
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:03,760
Minnesota.
They are with a variety with

1269
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:06,280
respect to Greenland, a variety
of other things, but they got to

1270
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:11,400
do with respect to the bombing
of ships.

1271
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:15,720
Off of Venezuela, there are
little things here and there,

1272
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:19,120
but behind the scenes, quietly,
there are the workhorses that

1273
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:22,560
are coming together and working
together.

1274
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:26,400
We have a grant from the Hewlett
Foundation to train people on

1275
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:32,120
the Hill about how to how to
come together when you disagree

1276
01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:35,600
and go forward.
It had a major impact on the

1277
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:38,320
infrastructure bill when
Democrats and Republicans came

1278
01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:41,600
together, quietly compromised
and went ahead with a bill.

1279
01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:46,000
Now, you may not like the bill,
but it was an example of of some

1280
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:48,440
bipartisanship.
There's some of that going on

1281
01:20:48,440 --> 01:20:51,360
now with respect to China and a
variety of other things.

1282
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:59,480
So, so reward people who are
moderate and reward those who

1283
01:20:59,480 --> 01:21:03,000
stand up for the institutions
that are guardrails in our

1284
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:08,000
democracy, I think will overcome
some of the things that have

1285
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:12,480
that are happening now.
I think the midterm election is

1286
01:21:12,480 --> 01:21:15,400
going to put a big check on some
of those things.

1287
01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:18,320
There'll be oversight hearings.
Maybe they'll be too extreme,

1288
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:21,800
maybe they won't.
But the next presidential

1289
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:24,960
election is going to be very
important in terms of whether we

1290
01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:28,520
get it, get candidates or say
that, say, wait a minute, let's

1291
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:31,280
bring us together.
Let's work together, Let's work

1292
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:34,360
in the middle to solve problems.
That's what America wants.

1293
01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:37,520
That's what Americans want.
They don't want to be preached

1294
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:41,120
to like I'm doing right now, but
they they want you to listen to

1295
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:42,400
them.
And then they want you to come

1296
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:46,680
together and come together with
solutions to serious problems.

1297
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:50,560
It almost feels like it that
that this past, the reason why I

1298
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:53,240
was hopeful this past time was
because I felt like people that

1299
01:21:53,240 --> 01:21:56,880
were historically left like
Tulsi and RFK and and even Elon,

1300
01:21:57,080 --> 01:22:00,000
You know what historically I
think voted more left than

1301
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:02,000
right, He.
Was a Democrat, yeah.

1302
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:04,920
Yeah, you know, I think.
And Trump was a Democrat.

1303
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:05,920
Too.
Yeah, that's right.

1304
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:06,800
That's right.
That's right.

1305
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:11,160
But but my point, but my point
being that, you know, you have,

1306
01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:15,240
you have a you have a you have,
you have a, you have a guy

1307
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:18,000
running for president that seems
like he is trying to unify the

1308
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:20,200
two sides.
And you have people jumping from

1309
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:22,800
one side to the next to be part
of this quote UN quote populist

1310
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:24,480
movement.
It didn't happen.

1311
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:26,680
So, I mean, I hope it does in
the future and I hope that we

1312
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:30,400
can keep on doing that.
But I'm I I was that's really

1313
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:32,360
what's been the hardest about
the part about all this for me

1314
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:34,480
was I was so hopeful and I was
so excited.

1315
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:37,120
And then if and then, you know,
like I heard it put very

1316
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:37,960
astutely.
It's funny.

1317
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:39,720
It is.
You would never have guessed the

1318
01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:43,280
RFK is the least controversial
member of Trump's cabinet at the

1319
01:22:43,280 --> 01:22:45,760
moment.
You know, and you're so you're

1320
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:46,720
right.
I wouldn't have, I wouldn't

1321
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:48,920
never have thought that.
But that, yeah, that's, that's

1322
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:50,440
what we are saying.
Don't give up hope.

1323
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:55,840
OK, OK.
Good for you to.

1324
01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:59,480
Have hope and to continue to
stay engaged like you are.

1325
01:22:59,480 --> 01:23:03,320
That's very important to get
information, different views out

1326
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:06,200
and get people to talk.
And thank you very much.

1327
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:08,600
Professor J, Thank you.
This is such a pleasure.

1328
01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:10,160
Yeah.
Good luck.

1329
01:23:10,480 --> 01:23:11,720
I appreciate this.
Take Care now.

1330
01:23:11,720 --> 01:23:12,760
All the best, bye.