#137: Robin Dreeke / FBI CounterIntel / Spy Flipping / Social Media Madness / Big Picture Thinking

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

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We're live.
Robin Drake, thank you so much

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for coming on.
I'm so excited to be talking to

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you.
It is an awesome pleasure,

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Efrims.
We're glad we can finally make

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it happen.
Apologize for my chaotic life

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and schedule.
No reason to apologize, it looks

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like I just showed my high.
I teach high school English part

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time and I just showed my class
the Dead Poet Society.

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It's an old one.
Oh man.

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Yeah.
But let me tell you something

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that shook them.
That movie shook them.

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But but one you know, I just
going through going through your

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resume and going through your
website and going through doing

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some homework on you.
You really carpet the heck out

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of the DM in the in your life,
haven't you?

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That's.
That's interesting.

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Yeah, I guess so.
Not by design, as I often say

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The, you know, people ask me how
I got to run the behavioral

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analysis program for the FBI,
spy recruiting and all that.

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It sounds like that was the
trajectory, like early drive.

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But the truth is, you know, that
I completely failed.

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Everything I wanted to do, I
wanted to do.

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Oh yeah, I wanted to be an
astronaut.

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Wow and.
And I didn't have the didn't

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have the grades, didn't have the
scores, didn't have, you know,

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and the most important thing
that each of us can have in life

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is a is a great teacher, mentor,
guide and loving critic.

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And with my background, with my
family of how I grew up, you

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know, with I was the first one
to go to college.

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I was the first one to even to
stay to own a home.

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And so there I'm first
generational professional and so

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there was no mentor and guiding
at home because it was uncharted

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territory.
And so I was relying upon

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creating relationships.
Again, when you're younger, you

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don't realize it, but you're,
you know, in order to solve

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life's most wickedly challenging
situations, you're, you really

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rely on relationships.
And so I was fortunate earlier

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in life to have some that helped
me maneuver through, but not

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enough to help me really
capitalize on my blind spots

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that I didn't realize I had.
Right, right, right, right.

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I think I, I, I, I think it's
actually, it's funny, I come

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from a similar, as far as, you
know, not quite making, at least

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not yet making what I thought I
wanted to do and having to

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figure out another way around
it.

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I had, no, I was not under any
kind of false pretense as to

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what my capabilities were.
And I was always actually

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looking to, to fill in a round
out the parts of my, you know,

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the parts of the things I wasn't
as great at with close

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relationships and mentors and
good friends.

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And I, I had to figure that out
at a relatively early age, even

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though I was switching high
schools.

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I was miserable in 9th and 10th
grade.

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And I wanted to switch to
another local school and they

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didn't want me because my grades
were awful.

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And I had to have a good
relationship that with a teacher

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that was in that school.
And he advocated for me.

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And the school eventually let me
in.

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And it was the best thing that
as far as I'm concerned, ever

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happened, one of the best things
that ever happened to me.

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And it was just because I was,
you know, I maintained a good

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relationship with this, with
this teacher.

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And I knew him from my
neighborhood and I was always

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nice and polite and respectful
to him.

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And I ended up taking his neck
out and got, you know, getting

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me where I where I wanted to
get.

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And so I think that you're
right.

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I think that cultivating good
relationships, especially

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understanding our own
shortcomings or, you know, no

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one's perfect.
So it's just about finding the

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partners that could round out
where you are.

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Yeah.
And I'm, I'm curious with that

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teacher that did that for you,
are you in a line of work and

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doing things in your life right
now that were inspired because

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of his encouragement or the
things he said and the things

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did during that time period
where he made you feel seen and

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valued?
Yes, but not he was more he he

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was a rabbi.
So he taught Judaic studies.

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And that's certainly, I mean, I
still, I still, there's

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different, you know, just like
if you have different leaders in

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your lives or different role
models and mentors for different

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things with different rabbis or
in a spiritual capacity that,

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you know, some will help you
with more practical aspects of,

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of day-to-day life.
Some of them will be a little

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bit more like how to direct your
relationship with your wife,

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your kids.
Some of them are more about your

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personal relationship and growth
with God.

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And so he happens to be he, he
does fill in a role in, in my,

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in my spiritual life that to
today is, is super fundamental.

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And he's, he's known for that.
He's awesome.

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Yeah, it's usually that period
of life between the ages of 9 to

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24.
The, the positive impact of the

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people or events that we have
typically shape how we move

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through life.
Not necessarily with the exact

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things we do, but the things
that gave us great feeling of

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safety and comfort.
We start wanting to repeat, not

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necessarily exactly the task,
but the emotion we had and the

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things we experienced that
during that time for that gave

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us that emotion.
So that's why anytime we can

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identify those data points, it's
it's just fun.

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It helps us understand people at
a deeper level and that's what

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we do when we're making
connections.

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You know, that great question is
of who is it all those years ago

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that inspired you or gave that
spark to be who you are today?

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Let them take you on that
journey and you're going to

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start really uncovering the
people in someone's life and the

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types of relationships that
meant something valuable to

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them.
And a lot of times that people

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are unaware of it as well, just
because they hadn't really

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thought in hindsight about those
types of people.

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Yeah, yeah.
There's a great show called

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Trafficked with Mariana Van
Zeller.

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I don't know if you heard of it.
It's on Hulu.

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And she's an investigative
journalist.

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And each episode is a breakdown
of some underworld crime world.

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And one of the things that she
does so well is she

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contextualizes, you know, what
brings people to, you know,

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drives people to a life of crime
and far.

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It's almost never that someone
just says, Hey, I want to be a

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bad guy, you know, and it's
almost never that someone said

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and, and, and it's funny.
There's an episode with

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assassins and she was talking to
the young assassin and he said

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that I got started.
My, my, my dad was killed.

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And she says, well, don't you
know that all the dads that

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you're killing?
And he goes, I don't touch women

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or children because but then,
you know, all the dads you're

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killing are that was the same
thing that happened to you.

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And the kid might end up doing
the same thing.

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And it had not dawned upon that
guy at all.

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And I, who knows how many
assassinations he's carried out.

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And he stopped the interview and
said, I, I, you know, that you

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really shook me.
I really don't.

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I have to think about this and
who knows what he's going to do,

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But the fact is that very few
people have that.

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Well, and, and here's why, So we
can even analyze him in the same

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way we look at everyone and look
at ourselves.

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And so here's a guy, a young man
that experienced something

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traumatic by his dad.
And so at a very young age, like

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most of us, myself very much
included, we get in the the

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routine and get the reps in of
solving our problems.

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And so when you start solving
your own problems, you get very

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good, get very gritty, get very
resilient, get very innovative

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in order to solve our problems.
And along the way, in order to

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solve our problems, we are
forging relationships to help us

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solve our problems.
And they can be good, healthy,

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strong relationships.
But what happens at a certain

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point when you are starting
mature and people are expecting

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you to mature into leadership or
a position where you have to

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actually think of someone other
than yourself?

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And So what this assassin didn't
really realize until that point

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was he was very good at solving
problems.

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He's very good at creating
relationships in order to get

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what he needed to do to move
forward and be successful in

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life.
Because the guarantee of us all

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is that we're always going to
act in what we think is our own

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best interests in terms of our
safety, security, and

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prosperity.
It's just the empathy aspect is

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what that looks like to that
other person from their context.

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And so at that certain point
with the assassin, someone let

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him know that other people are
working with their challenges,

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priorities, and pain points in
life, not just you.

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Other people are solving their
problems, not just you.

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When you actually have that aha
moment, you're like wow, other

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people have other crap they're
working on too and those

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profound moments.
If you are a humble student of

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life, you can actually take that
information in, process it, and

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start making shifts like he did
apparently.

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Yeah, I hope, I hope, I hope, I
hope so.

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But it's a good metaphor either
way.

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But I, I, I've noticed since,
and I've been actually trying to

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advocate for this as as often
and as strongly as I can.

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Our brain evolves with the
addition of responsibility, I've

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noticed.
And you know, whether it's being

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responsible for a wife or kids
or community or friends, or even

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having, for example, having
responsibility to yourself.

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I play an open mic every now and
then.

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You know, I've been, I've been
practicing slowly, you know,

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playing guitar every night, you
know, and I, I was practicing

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for years and I kind of got held
up a little bit recently with

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all the stuff on my plate.
But one of the responsibilities

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that I have is that if I'm a
face that people can, you know,

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count on on a weekly basis or a
store owner counts on to show up

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and, and, and create a crowded
environment.

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Having a sense of responsibility
greatly, greatly enhances your

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sense of consciousness and your
sense of, of awareness.

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And you start to think a lot
less.

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You start to think in a lot
bigger of a circle and a lot

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less just about yourself.
And then you also realize that

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the more that people, the better
off the rest of the world is,

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the better off you are too,
because I mean, who, you know,

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who I mean, who wants to live in
an environment that is

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surrounded by misery?
And who wants to live in an

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environment that's surrounded by
healthy, happy relationships?

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And everyone has to take their
part in it, I think.

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And a lot of misery can also be
context.

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Half the world's divided into
wound collecting victims and the

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other half is collect collected
into problem solvers.

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And interesting that you use
that word responsibility.

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But another word that a lot of
psychologists will use is

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friction.
Brain only grows and evolves

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when it has friction.
It needs resistance in order to

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move through that resistance.
And it's like a, it's like a

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muscle.
Brain is a muscle.

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You know, the more you flex your
muscles and the more you work

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them, the bigger they get, the
more resilient they get, the

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better they get.
A processing, same thing with

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the brain.
And the way the brain gets

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better, gets more resilient,
matures and grows is when it has

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friction, frictions,
responsibility.

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Friction is anything that is
something other than sitting on

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your couch and doing nothing.
So some resistance.

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Resistance is more, some
resistance is less.

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And here's the other thing,
beautiful thing about on the

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brain also, we don't remember
average days.

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No.
So we don't remember days that

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are extremely challenging or
extremely joyous.

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Yeah.
And so that's what we also

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remember.
So always make sure you go out

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there and create a day you're
gonna remember.

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It's funny you say that.
When I was, I was living in the

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in Manhattan for a couple of
months and I really didn't like

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it there.
But one thing I was trying to be

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very intentional about was
trying to do something every day

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that I would remember at the end
of the week, like Monday, I did

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this Tuesday, like just one
thing that that was out of the

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ordinary so that I could shake
things up and make something

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memorable in my day.
It was extremely difficult to

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do.
It's so challenging, but, and

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00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,080
it, and it's tiring.
You have to think of a new thing

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00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:50,320
every day.
What's a new thing that I

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00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,320
remember at the end of the week?
And then, but I, I, I digress.

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00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:57,320
We're 10 minutes in and I
didn't, I didn't give you any

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00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:58,680
introduction.
I didn't give any kind of

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00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:01,000
context other than you
mentioning very briefly that you

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00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,640
were that you're the head of the
counter Intel, the FBI, and you

236
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,000
also have a history at the Navy
and the Marine Corps and you

237
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,840
have written many books now and
again.

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00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,840
You know, it looks like you
really seized the day as far as

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00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,360
the days in your life go.
It looks, you know, I mean, I

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00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,480
just know that I'm trying to
accomplish even a fraction of

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00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:21,680
what you're doing, even writing
a book.

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00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,760
And it's taken me a long time.
So, you know, just I would like

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00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,080
to, I'd like to hear a little
bit about your journey about a

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00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,280
little bit about, I mean, you
seem to obviously be very

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00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,320
psychologically in tune and
inclined and aware and

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00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,160
especially about human nature
and people's personalities and

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00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,680
such.
Was this always the case?

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00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:42,840
Was this something you learned?
Do you feel like you had some

249
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,960
kind of proclivity towards
people?

250
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,400
And how did you decide that you
wanted to get into into

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00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,200
government and protecting
protecting people?

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00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,560
So I'll, I'll take you on that
journey way, way back that we

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00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:59,120
all have about what's that spark
and inspiration to be who we are

254
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,720
today.
And however that manifests can

255
00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,480
look different over time with
opportunities and jobs and all

256
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:10,720
that.
So first, the reason behind

257
00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,960
human behavior and being really
into it and really enjoying it

258
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:19,440
is my I try to keep things very,
very simple.

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00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,560
Anytime something seems
complicated means you don't

260
00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:23,600
understand it enough.
And so you got to dig deeper to

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00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,720
make it simple.
So the best, most intelligent

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00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,600
people in the world can explain
complex things in a few words.

263
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,160
And so for me, it's really
plainly simple as I kept boiling

264
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,520
things down to really the root
motivation I have.

265
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:41,200
And that is I want to be liked,
have friends, be part of great

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00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,560
teams and be the best at it.
Yeah, be the best liked.

267
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:46,840
I mean, it really just comes
down to that.

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00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,960
And so the motivation that got
me better at that was how I grew

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00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:52,280
up.
You know, I grew up in a in a

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00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,400
household where, as I said
earlier, you know, first

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00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,520
generation professional.
My my parents were very young

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00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,240
when they got married because my
mother was six months pregnant.

273
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No, three months pregnant.
And and so that cut and my dad

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00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:13,000
was 21 going on 22, my mom was
20 and no promise.

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I mean, just no, nothing lined
up.

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And so it's just like, here's
life go.

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So you grow up very gritty,
resilient to solve problems.

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00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,320
And because my problem was I
needed money to buy school

279
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,080
clothes so I could fit in with
the rest of the kids.

280
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,720
I needed, I needed, I needed
things that my parents couldn't

281
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,040
give me.
So I went out and I did it.

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00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,640
I am a hardcore, you know, all
the things, all the memes you

283
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,880
see about Gen.
Xers on X on Twitter and and and

284
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,840
TikTok and everything.
That's me 100%.

285
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,840
I was free range from the very
young age and see when you're

286
00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,600
doing these things at a young
age, getting what I call those

287
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,760
reps in when you're bullied, you
get to understand and really

288
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,400
recognize owning, OK, what am I
doing that's causing them to

289
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,480
fixate negative attention on me?
And when I need to build

290
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,160
relationships and allies to get
through that.

291
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,160
But then also I had big
aspirations.

292
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,160
I want to go to the Naval
Academy at a very young age.

293
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,480
And so I needed, I need to build
resume.

294
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:10,960
I need to be on the football
team.

295
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:12,680
I need to be captain of the
football team.

296
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:14,200
I need to run for a student
office.

297
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,320
And I did.
I mean, all these things, all

298
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,200
these milestones in life that I
need to build that resume to get

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00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,760
into a very tough school to get
into and get the grades I need

300
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,800
to get into.
And I didn't have the grades.

301
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,040
I had OK grades, but I needed
even more allies for that.

302
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:29,360
It took me a year of prep
school.

303
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,840
I almost got kicked out of Naval
Academy 4 times because my

304
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,000
grades were so bad.
Was it the problem with school?

305
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,520
I'm sorry, what was the problem
with school for you?

306
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,960
Because I had a problem as far
as test taking goes.

307
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,280
My I would get nervous.
My brain would go blank.

308
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,120
So.
What was the middle of you?

309
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,920
High school, no problem, you
know I did well but the

310
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,520
standardized test SAT sucked.
I had to take the SAT 7 times to

311
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,560
get the minimum score to even
get an application.

312
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:59,160
So for me what I've come to find
out later in life is everyone

313
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,680
learns very differently
visually, audio, tactile.

314
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,640
And for me I actually learn best
when I'm moving.

315
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:08,440
I'm it's called a kinetic
learner.

316
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,120
So I listen to audible books now
when I walk multiple I walk like

317
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:13,160
3 * a day.
I rock.

318
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:14,960
I got 35 lbs on my back and
stuff.

319
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:20,200
But when I listen to audiobooks
I remember everything awesome.

320
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,600
When I'm sitting down and trying
to read something, forget it, it

321
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,720
1/4 of it may be retained with a
lot of effort.

322
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,560
And so that was part of it.
And also when you're not

323
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,520
challenged in in high school and
I wasn't challenged, I didn't

324
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,120
come from a grade high school.
It's a good one, but not a super

325
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,960
one that didn't teach me skills
I needed because I could just do

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00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,560
bare minimum and do really well.
I was just using that natural

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00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,920
intuition St. smarts kind of
stuff to get by and did decently

328
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,320
enough.
And so when I actually went to a

329
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,640
university like the Naval
Academy to study engineering, I

330
00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,880
was like way overwhelmed with, I
couldn't do it.

331
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,960
I mean, it's the first time in
my life that I'm, I'm facing

332
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,040
aerospace engineering as a major
as I wanted to be an aerospace

333
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:02,320
engineer, wants to be an
astronaut.

334
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,040
And I was like, I was looking at
a page I didn't know, I didn't

335
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,080
know what I was even looking at,
you know, And it would take me

336
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,840
all night long to work 3
engineering problems.

337
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,480
I had to blow off my other
classes because at the Academy

338
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,920
had taken roughly 20 to 22 hours
semester hours a semester, all

339
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,440
in hardcore sciences, and I had
to blow off all my other courses

340
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,000
to do these 3 problems and get
every question wrong anyway.

341
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,760
I mean it was just, it became
ludicrous really fast.

342
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,080
That was my problem.
It must be demoralizing.

343
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:34,440
It must have been.
How did you push yourself

344
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,720
through it?
The same skills that I had of

345
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,760
problem solving again, it kept
reinforcing.

346
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,720
I got to solve my problem.
I got to solve my because to me

347
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,360
there was no option if I failed
out, I was not going to college.

348
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:47,480
We didn't have money for
college.

349
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,640
I was either going to the Naval
Academy and coming a naval

350
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,600
officer or Marine Corps officer
or nothing in my mind.

351
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:58,520
And so was all in.
And I also never ever was I

352
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,920
saying it's their fault, it's
their problem, it's too hard.

353
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,880
It was always me.
It's like I am doing something

354
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:05,800
wrong.
And so the one thing that I did,

355
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,040
and this was the the arc of my
life.

356
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:11,760
How did I get through all that?
My professors love me.

357
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,839
It wasn't that I was doing
horrible and they thought as a

358
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:17,720
dirtbag or I wasn't trying.
Everyone saw the effort.

359
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,920
I was in extra instruction with
all my professors, every single

360
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,839
one of them, all the time.
I had great relationships,

361
00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:26,760
matter of fact, electrical
engineering, I don't think I

362
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,480
ever passed a single quiz or
test in electrical engineering.

363
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,560
And yet I passed the course with
AD because I, I swear I must

364
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,080
have guilted the professor into
passing me.

365
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,160
Yeah, because he saw the effort,
you know?

366
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,000
So effort and relationships will
get you a lot farther in life

367
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,840
than pure root brute strength
will.

368
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,320
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I mean, I think that if anyone

369
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,800
studies literally anyone, any
great, any great person, you'll

370
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,520
find that, you know, very, very
rarely is someone just a pure

371
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,880
force in an isolated, you know,
vacuum. 100%.

372
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,040
And it was interesting when you
were mentioning about walking

373
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,680
and learning because I, I, I
feel I'm an experiential

374
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,480
learner.
I have to, I never got the

375
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,560
geography of America until I
drove across the country and

376
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,200
like, it all made sense to me
and it all clicked.

377
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,600
And Steve Jobs used to say the
same sentiment about, you know,

378
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,800
whenever you'd hold big business
meetings, he would have it in

379
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:24,560
the least formal, generally on a
walk around Apple campus, just

380
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,880
because he's like, the best way
to be productive is to be moving

381
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,160
and to indicate your brain, your
blood flowing and your brain

382
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,000
moving.
And then let's and let's talk

383
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,440
things out.
And you know, and also I think,

384
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,360
and I've experienced this myself
on personal levels, just with

385
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,880
friends and even with,
obviously, even when I started

386
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,240
the podcast, I would do just
audio without video and I would

387
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,480
often walk around the room or go
for a walk while I was recording

388
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,040
just to get my brain flowing.
It's one of the things I missed

389
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,640
about it.
But it's, I think it's really

390
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,560
important.
I think that we live in a very,

391
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:59,000
very sedimentary world and
everyone's very still very, very

392
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,760
frequently.
It's something I'm a little

393
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,480
concerned about.
In fact my my last book, I'm

394
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,840
republishing my first one.
It's not all about me, but my

395
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:09,320
last book on Breakable Alliance
is.

396
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,360
I Wrote While Walking.
Oh, really?

397
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,000
So I, what I did was I
interviewed my, I came up with

398
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,680
the content of the chapters that
I wanted, of the content I

399
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,360
wanted to cover.
And then I created 9 questions

400
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:24,400
because every, every, every
chapter in the book has sections

401
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,960
and every section of the book is
answering a key question for the

402
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,240
big question of that section of
that chapter.

403
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,560
And so I did was I came up with
on 9 questions per chapter that

404
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,800
I wanted to have answered.
And So what I did was I

405
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,320
interviewed myself asking me
that question.

406
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,880
I narrated it out loud as I'm
walking.

407
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,000
I then took the transcript and
then edited the transcript.

408
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,200
Incredible.
I love that because I think

409
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,960
better when I move and so I said
if I think better when I move.

410
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:52,440
Let me move while I write this
book.

411
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,880
Yeah, yeah, I and I, I've
noticed that that's worked for

412
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,000
me with public speaking.
I know that when I speak

413
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,200
publicly, I like to walk around.
I like to move and shift and,

414
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,720
and use a lot of body language.
And I, I encourage, I teach my

415
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,000
high school students and I
haven't done it this past year

416
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,240
yet, but I, I, we do public
speaking every semester, 5

417
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,280
minute public speech, no more,
no less.

418
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,680
Or you have 30 seconds within
each, within each range.

419
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,960
But I think it's important to
learn how to do that, to get a

420
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,320
point in a couple of minutes and
to speak in front of people.

421
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,000
And one thing I encourage is for
people to walk around.

422
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:22,840
But when I was doing a lot of
public speaking.

423
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,080
In college, I would do exactly
what you said.

424
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,160
I would take a voice note, a
memo, I'd record, practice what

425
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,280
I want to say.
I have a list with a couple of

426
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:32,800
bulletins of topics I want to
get to.

427
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,280
And that was it.
And then I would, and then I

428
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,080
would just walk and practice.
And then by the time it came up,

429
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,520
I already had the whole thing
flushed out of my head.

430
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,040
And someone, there's a, there's
a girl that tried to speak after

431
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,200
me one time and we were friends
and, and she forgot in the

432
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,200
middle what she was saying.
And you could see in her face

433
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,400
everything froze And she was
like, and she never knows you

434
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,400
have anything in front of her.
And she came up to me after

435
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,120
she's like, how do you do it?
And I said, I don't just walk up

436
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,840
and try to speak off the cuff.
I was like, I spent, I probably

437
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,200
spent an hour, 45 minutes
preparing.

438
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,160
Every single time I get up for,
for a 10 minute speech or a 5

439
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,320
minute speech, I prepare for, I,
I prepare at least half an hour,

440
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,160
45 minutes.
I know exactly what I'm going to

441
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,760
say.
And I have the, I have the

442
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,360
bulletin points in my head and I
know I'm going to go with it,

443
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:20,080
you know, So I think that it's a
really cool method of being

444
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,920
productive.
There's never a wasted moment

445
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,880
when you're practicing, you
know, every time as I ran our

446
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,640
behavioral analysis program for
the FBI, the counterintelligence

447
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,240
team, and we strategize
recruitment operations as spies.

448
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,920
And one thing that we always had
case agents do is we always told

449
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,000
him you have to get in reps, you
have to role play this out

450
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,920
multiple times on just as an
example, bringing my kids back

451
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:45,480
into.
So my son's a Marine Corps

452
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,440
fighter pilot.
And before they do any flight,

453
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,280
whether it's a training mission
or anything else, they chair fly

454
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:53,880
it.
They actually literally go

455
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,720
through all the motions, all
this, all the verbals, all the

456
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,520
mode, you know, they, they walk
between chairs about what the

457
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,880
route they're going to fly.
If there's a great movie, they

458
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,880
used to have it on Netflix, I
think it's on Prime right now,

459
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:10,320
called the Blue Angels.
It was made I think in 2022 or

460
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,000
2023.
It's actually the Blue Angel

461
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,680
flight team.
And you will see them doing

462
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,040
exactly the same thing at the
extreme levels.

463
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,120
And you think these guys are are
perfect and fly The Jets best in

464
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:19,960
the world.
And they do.

465
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:21,840
But it's not because it came
natural.

466
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,680
It comes with a lot, a lot, a
lot of reps Everything we do in

467
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,360
life is another Rep.
There's never a bad repetition.

468
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:32,000
Everything's a learning moment.
Definitely I did.

469
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,120
I did a recording with a
gentleman that was formerly on

470
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:39,040
Secret Service, and one thing he
said was that they have a very,

471
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,600
very high turnover rate because
it's a lot of drilling and not a

472
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,560
lot happens because people
actually get burned out because

473
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,440
you know you're drilling for all
these potential scenarios and

474
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,560
then when you're actually.
And he goes and, and then

475
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,000
another gentleman who is also in
a similar world said, and

476
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,640
there's, there's never a pat on
the back.

477
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,360
There's never a good job.
And he goes and you really have

478
00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:58,840
to be.
And like what you said, you got

479
00:22:58,840 --> 00:22:59,960
to do what you got to do for
yourself.

480
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:02,520
You got to do what you got to do
because this is what you find

481
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,080
valuable and important and
meaningful.

482
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,600
And you're not looking for
necessarily a think you're a pat

483
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,200
on the back and you're not
looking necessarily to be in the

484
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:11,480
midst of action.
You're looking to do the right

485
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,680
thing and you're, and, and, and
when you're focused on that, it

486
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,080
allows practice to become
invaluable and it allows to you

487
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:20,960
like practice becomes meaningful
to you.

488
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,120
I I don't know what in what way
my guitar playing is ever going

489
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:27,400
to manifest, but I practice
every single day and I don't

490
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,800
feel like I've wasted a minute
of my life doing it, you know?

491
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,160
It's it's muscle memory is what
it's develops.

492
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,640
And so in all these situations
where it becomes high stress,

493
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,480
when you're under high stress
and your brain's being

494
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,680
emotionally hijacked, it's going
to revert to what it already

495
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,040
knows what to do.
That's why we trained.

496
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,920
That's why we get the reps in.
And then going back to, since

497
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,680
you mentioned that servicing and
going back to the second part of

498
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:52,000
the original question was, so
why Marine, you know, this life

499
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,000
is service basically because I
went for the Naval Academy,

500
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,720
graduate from the Naval Academy
and went to the Marine Corps

501
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,560
instead of the Navy.
It's a, it's a choice and

502
00:23:58,560 --> 00:23:59,880
option.
If I did additional training,

503
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,280
which I did when the Marine
Corps, served the Marine Corps

504
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,520
for five years, got out of
captain and came in the FBI

505
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,920
after that and worked for
intelligence for 22 years before

506
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,280
I retired in 2018.
So that it was all about

507
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,960
service, 100%.
And when I was retiring from,

508
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,280
well, getting out of the Marine
Corps and going the FBI, it

509
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,000
wasn't because I was rah rah FBI
guy, was because it was an

510
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,760
opportunity to continue to
service my country.

511
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,480
So I always see myself as a
patriot first.

512
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,560
Government institutions, they
give me a retirement check.

513
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,040
And so I always say that they,
they allowed me to continue a

514
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:37,280
patriotic service because
organizations, institutions can,

515
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,800
you know, ebb and flow with
popularity or unpopularity and

516
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,320
it's becomes a mess.
But yeah, the people I worked

517
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,200
with, mission, mission, mission.
I was always extremely mission

518
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,680
oriented with being of service.
That's really awesome.

519
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,920
That's really beautiful.
And I mean, I think I, I, I, you

520
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,000
know, what do you, have you
found out a lot of others that

521
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,920
you worked with were like that?
Is that a general sentiment or

522
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:02,120
you think it's a mixed bag?
Mixed bag.

523
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,280
Typically people come into
organizations when they're

524
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:12,160
younger with a very, you know,
altruistic, humanistic outlook

525
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,320
and and very service, selfless
orientation why they do things

526
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:20,080
sometimes along the path, people
become that balance.

527
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,760
Like for me that it was always
out of balance.

528
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:26,000
My career didn't need mean as
much to me as my service did and

529
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,560
the mission.
And so I was out of balance.

530
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,360
You know, it's always mission,
mission, mission.

531
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,680
And if you don't take in career,
when I say career, I'm talking

532
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:39,720
about understanding and working
with internal politics, both for

533
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,280
personal and professional gain
as well As for mission.

534
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,840
Because in order to have the
mission accomplished and get a

535
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,800
yes to do in operations, you
actually have to have the

536
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,160
relationship to do that.
And those same relationships

537
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,680
will actually serve you
personally and professionally if

538
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,680
you want to advance.
And so mine was a bit out of

539
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,000
balance because I was 2 mission
focused for many, many years and

540
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,720
unaware of the the fact that
many around me were shifting

541
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,000
into being career oriented and
less mission oriented.

542
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,840
So I'd say everyone comes in
with a very good reason and in

543
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,000
their own mind they're doing it
for all the right reasons

544
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,000
throughout.
It's just what what happens is

545
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,960
there becomes shifts in
priorities with all human needs

546
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,760
and all jobs.
I'm curious in your 22 years at

547
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,640
the FBI because I mean, I, I
guess I'm curious about really

548
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,680
anyone, but does the political
party that's in power at the

549
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,720
time change the entire
environment of everything that

550
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,920
you're doing?
Is it like every four years or

551
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,560
eight years is just a reset and
just like, hey, we're starting

552
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,640
over again?
Or what's, what's it like when

553
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,080
you go through periods of
transition, especially with and

554
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,320
especially with relatively
dramatic differences as far as

555
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,400
policy goes, I don't really, you
know, I'm not really interested

556
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,440
in talking about one policy or
the next more in just actual

557
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,200
environment within the agencies.
How does that affect day-to-day

558
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,720
life, or how did it affect your
job?

559
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,440
During my time in I I was in
from 96, roughly 96 going to 97

560
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,240
all the way up to 2018.
I went through 4 directors.

561
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,080
I had Louis Free was when I was
came in, then Bob Mueller then

562
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,520
call me and then Ray on the way
out.

563
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:28,760
And it typically politics
doesn't affect anything because

564
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,520
the FBI enforces law And so laws
are laws, you know.

565
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:38,000
And so the on the criminal side,
the guys that do criminal

566
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,520
investigations, it doesn't
really impact that much at all

567
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,320
unless it gets into the area of
white collar crime or public

568
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,720
corruption.
Then you might see a thumb on or

569
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,240
a supposed thumb on a scale.
But it's, it's funny the way it

570
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,480
works.
The FBI enforces law.

571
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,120
It investigates, you know, the
statutes that have been

572
00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:59,920
violated.
And you always have more things

573
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:01,880
being done, more crimes being
done.

574
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,840
Then you have people to
investigate them always.

575
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,760
Like when I was at, even at FBI
headquarters, you know, I had

576
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,200
three stacks, a stack of stuff.
If I didn't do it, I was going

577
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,400
to get fired.
A stack of stuff if I didn't do,

578
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,760
I'd probably go to jail.
And a stack of stuff that I had

579
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,960
to get done or someone else's
life was going to suck.

580
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,280
And you can only get done maybe
a portion of one of those stacks

581
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:22,360
a day.
So every day you're coming and

582
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:24,600
reshuffling stacks.
And this is everyone's job in

583
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,360
life, you know, but the
government's no different.

584
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:28,520
There's never a day when you
went home is, oh, everything I

585
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,200
got everything done today.
Never.

586
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,520
And so you're reshuffling that
stack or your management above

587
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,600
you is helping you reshuffle
that stack.

588
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:38,520
That stack.
Everything in that stack is

589
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,320
righteous.
In other words, it's good

590
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,760
investigations, violations, all
these things.

591
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,960
But sometimes, you know, in
recent years, I'm thinking that

592
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,360
someone that's a political
appointee will want something

593
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,360
more focused on than another
thing.

594
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,920
And it's not that any of them
are necessarily wrong, it's just

595
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,520
that someone will reshuffle that
stack for you potentially,

596
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,000
Potentially.
But so here's the thing to

597
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,880
realize with all government
organization institutions, with

598
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,520
political appointees, every
organization inside the

599
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,240
government is run by a political
appointee.

600
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,840
They then bring in their own
people that they then hire

601
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,360
underneath them at that higher
echelon of those organizations.

602
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,560
And so the Bureau point
directors of a 10 year

603
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,760
appointment unless removed or
fired by the next president.

604
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,360
And so they should, they should
be and typically are

605
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,440
nonpartisan.
So then someone's partisanship

606
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,080
that comes down as subjective
opinion.

607
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,840
Inside my time inside the
Bureau, I never saw a

608
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,080
difference.
Very cool.

609
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:40,880
That's awesome.
That's awesome.

610
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,680
Long answer, but I I think
sometimes it needs clarity by.

611
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,440
I think it absolutely does.
I think it's absolutely worth

612
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,720
it.
I think that it's also, I think

613
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,960
it's really, really important to
give everyone the opportunity to

614
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,680
express their point of view, you
know, about especially,

615
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,880
especially especially someone
that's been, you know, inside

616
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,840
and one argument actually, you
know, do you mind if we pause

617
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,080
for two seconds?
You're starting to rain out

618
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:00,880
here.
Yeah, sure.

619
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:01,840
OK.
Sorry.

620
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,200
My coffee anyway.
OK.

621
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,320
I'm sorry about that.
We're back.

622
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,520
So I apologize for the
interruption.

623
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,000
What were you just saying?
No, we're just talking about

624
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,200
just the how government
organizations, institutions work

625
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,040
with the appointees at the top.
My time in I, I didn't see it.

626
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,440
I mean, I saw, I mean, you know,
anytime you're working in a

627
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,440
world of counterintelligence,
you're working with a lot of

628
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,240
other agencies.
We had always coordinate with

629
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,960
CIA.
We had to coordinate with State

630
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,880
Department a lot.
And so the heads of those

631
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,280
organizations will also weigh in
on what you're doing or not

632
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,720
doing when it comes to
operations.

633
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,920
And those people are also
political appointees.

634
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,640
And so it's always, it's always
a blend.

635
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,560
But I never saw anything
massively shift when during my

636
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,920
time in, you know, the last
couple years, I couldn't tell

637
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,080
you, but it's been it's just
been different.

638
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,760
But every day is different
everywhere else.

639
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,640
Yeah, yeah, seriously, it just
feels like the difference are

640
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,840
getting better.
I feel like the events that

641
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,160
happen feel like they're on a
bigger and bigger scale every

642
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,600
time something happens.
You know, and that's very

643
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,120
interesting.
I will say they're appearing

644
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,720
that way because they're being
presented that way.

645
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,040
I mean, one of the things I do,
if you're going to have a

646
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,480
beautiful interaction with a
human being, the most important

647
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,960
thing to do is be present for
that other human being.

648
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,720
And the way to be present into
is to engage another human being

649
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,520
free of an agenda, especially if
it's centered around you.

650
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,920
The only agenda should be
actively curious about what it

651
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,520
is the other person wants to
share.

652
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,560
Identify a critical life
challenge and see what you can

653
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,960
do to be a resource for them in
terms of that critical life

654
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,480
challenge while establishing
trust with open, honest

655
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,320
communication, transparency and
vulnerability.

656
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,640
So in order to do that, in order
to be present for that other

657
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,480
human being, you have to be
extremely calm with have a calm

658
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,240
brain, no crazy brain, grown
free of emotional, you know,

659
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,520
baggage reactions and definitely
to the best of our abilities,

660
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,680
free of confirmation biases.
In order to do those things, you

661
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,640
have to have, for me, what I
have to do is I have to have a

662
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,840
vast historical context of what
is is because it keeps me calm.

663
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,360
When you see the world in chaos
around us, remember, we see the

664
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:20,000
world in chaos because that's
what's being presented to us by

665
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,240
whatever media outlet you want
to listen to.

666
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,800
Whether you're getting all your
things from social media through

667
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,440
the multiple things, or you're
whether you're listening to, you

668
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,920
know, cable news networks,
legacy news, I don't care what

669
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,920
you're looking to.
Everything that you're consuming

670
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,320
has an agenda to get you to
watch, to sell you ad space.

671
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,000
They're they're automatically
targeting you for you to consume

672
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,600
the information that's going to
validate your own self opinion

673
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,760
and the things you want to hear
because we have liking

674
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,240
confirmation that things we want
to hear because that will then

675
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,360
sell more ad space.
That's exactly how it works.

676
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,280
And so for me, in order to
maintain calm brain so I can be

677
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,880
present for the other person, I
just have historical contacts.

678
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,520
And so the world's, the world is
better today than it's ever been

679
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,120
before.
You're just seeing the five

680
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,080
second highlight reel of chaos
the world's presenting to you.

681
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:16,000
It is safer now as a human being
living on this planet, your,

682
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,880
your risk of death by violence
from another human being is at

683
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,400
an all time low for our species
and still going down.

684
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,200
Believe it or not, You know, you
don't have to look far back in,

685
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,320
in the history of our just in
the last 100 years of the chaos

686
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,400
that has ensued.
I mean, you know, if if anyone

687
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,680
wants some, some really good
deep context, read any book from

688
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,680
World War 2, anything from any
Holocaust survivor and you're

689
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,280
going to see, oh, no, we're
fine.

690
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:46,360
Yeah.
The chaotic.

691
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,360
Yes.
And does the human species

692
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,440
evolve in in generational
timeframes?

693
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,160
No, we're talking millennial
timeframes.

694
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,920
So I read a lot of it.
Matter of fact, right now, one

695
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,760
of the books I'm going through,
it's called Kindred.

696
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,600
It's actually the history of the
Neanderthals.

697
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,040
You want to you want to talk
about a fascinating time period.

698
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,680
Imagine our planet in a time
period that when no one had ever

699
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,120
recognized with the species of
human beings on it that you

700
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,000
wouldn't even recognize either,
you know, living in a very

701
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,000
harmonious way.
One of the reasons why I think

702
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,679
they died off was their calorie
requirement was so high.

703
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,679
And also they never evolved
beyond really high artisan

704
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:24,320
craftsmanship of Stone Age and,
and woodworking because they

705
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,360
didn't battle each other.
The evidence they have right now

706
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,120
is they are actually extremely
peaceful with each other, which

707
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,760
also means that they don't covet
things, which means you're not

708
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,199
craving things, which means
you're not battling against

709
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:38,040
others or resources like the
Homo sapiens did, which also

710
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,600
means you're not going to
innovate as much either.

711
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,639
So it's, it's just amazing.
Again, what's this give me as I

712
00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:45,480
go on my my sidelog monologue?
Oh I love this.

713
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,719
It gives you context.
Another book Noah Havari wrote,

714
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,639
the great book Sapiens, followed
up by Homo Deus and then Nexus.

715
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,960
You know, these books are good.
You great, amazing understanding

716
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,040
of context of us as a species.
And then you read other

717
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,480
beautiful historical biographies
and novel, and not novels, but

718
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,560
historical fiction, historical
books that gives you more

719
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,240
context of where we are today
and the great scheme of

720
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:11,040
evolution, the great scheme of
human interaction, nation states

721
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,640
so that you can be calm to
realize, OK, take a deep breath.

722
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,480
Let's just have a great
conversation with this person

723
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,080
and meet them where they're at
and be interested in what it is

724
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,560
they want to share.
There you go, long answers.

725
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:25,920
That's awesome.
I love that.

726
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,920
That's awesome.
I I so I I I I.

727
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,040
I know you're correct.
The way I know you're correct is

728
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,880
because I used to consume
several news podcasts a day and

729
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,440
was like, this is going to drive
me nuts.

730
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,280
I'm going to like it was
actively it was actually

731
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:43,800
detrimental.
And at a certain point I

732
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,040
realized that majority of what I
was listening to was actually

733
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,840
just essentially being repeated
on a daily basis and, you know,

734
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,360
changed the context.
But the same ideas and the same

735
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,400
and and similar vernacular and
similar urgency and similar

736
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,360
tone.
And I was like, dude, once a

737
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,640
week is fine.
Like once a week an update is

738
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,120
OK.
And again, like you said, take a

739
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,000
step back.
And the and the bigger context

740
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,280
is like, hey, like I went to bed
last night, sure that we were

741
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,960
going to be at war today.
I went to bed absolutely

742
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,880
positive of it.
You know, I was like, well, I

743
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,560
saw in the news that Iranian
airspace was cleared and that

744
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,600
Israel apparently was going in.
I saw the, the Chinese had, had

745
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,160
had air, had had aircrafts in,
in Iranian space.

746
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,120
I was like, that's it, we're
going to war and I wake up and

747
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,160
nothing happened.
I'm like, that's incredible that

748
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:29,800
I mean, you know, and credit
where credit's due.

749
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,640
I really think, you know,
because I was, I was really

750
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:39,360
concerned about the general war
tendency of the of the current

751
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:44,120
administration and it really
hasn't, you know, I mean, to be

752
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,880
fair, it hasn't really resulted
in, in, I don't think any

753
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,120
American deaths as far American
military deaths as far as I

754
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,120
know.
And I don't think it's really

755
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,520
resulted in any kind of massive
destruction of American

756
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,120
equipment or taxpayer dollars.
And I mean, we'll see what

757
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,960
happens long term, but it looks
like there's been a lot of bark

758
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,080
and a lot of restraint at the
same time.

759
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,560
And so everyone that you know,
but I'm sitting there every day

760
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,000
freaking out and getting blasted
with going to war or going to

761
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:11,920
war.
This is a war.

762
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:12,920
This is a war.
There's a war.

763
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:15,160
And like, we're okay, we're
okay.

764
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,080
It's.
And the other thing to round up

765
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,280
what you were saying as far as
Homo sapiens and needing

766
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,120
resources, I'm reading, I, I, I
did an interview with and I'm,

767
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,000
I'm reading the newest edition
of the Confessions of an

768
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,240
Economic Hitman by a gentleman
named John Perkins, which was,

769
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,080
which is an awesome book.
And one of the and basically the

770
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,720
whole book lays out that a lot
of the wars that we've been

771
00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:41,400
through have been obviously
judged for resources almost

772
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,920
since all of them everything.
Everything as a species, you

773
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,840
know, from the time we want
that, we decided we have to

774
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,480
leave The Cave.
You know, it's food insecurities

775
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:56,320
#1 you know, we've only started
really going after other

776
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,320
resources other than food as a
species in the last like 100

777
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,960
years.
I mean, we as a species, we

778
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,400
finally, you know, for everyone
that always argues against

779
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,600
genetically modified food and
all those things, I'm it's

780
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,320
great.
You can argue against it, you

781
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:12,960
know, because a lot of people
say, oh, you know, a hunter

782
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:14,200
gatherer is so much more
natural.

783
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:15,720
Yeah.
You know, the average age of

784
00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:18,320
hunter gatherer society was
around 30 to 40 tops.

785
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,960
And yeah, their food might have
been healthier, but there was

786
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:26,760
no, no food security ever.
And so what's amazing about that

787
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,640
is only in the last, within the
last 50 to 100 years as a

788
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,080
species.
Again, I got this from Noah

789
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,560
Havari's book, which is I think
it was next.

790
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:36,920
A Homo Deus is the next one
after that.

791
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,320
Did we as a species conquer
famine?

792
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,080
There's no famines you might
have.

793
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,640
There's food insecurity around
the world, but not because

794
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,120
there's crops going bad because
of famine or drought or

795
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,840
anything.
We as a species have scienced

796
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,080
ourselves out of that.
And so that's what's pretty

797
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,320
remarkable.
And so we can feed the world.

798
00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:01,400
We just choosing not to because
and why because the people in

799
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,800
control of different parts of
the world are battling for their

800
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,640
own resources.
They want to control.

801
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,840
You know, I can't remember the
name of the book.

802
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,440
I mean the movie, it was really
profound.

803
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,120
It's really good.
It was it was it was it was a it

804
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,400
was a horror kind of thriller,
but it's all about the the

805
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,520
really getting to the root core
religion of the world.

806
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:28,640
What was the first religion of
the entire species control?

807
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,040
That is the religion of our
species.

808
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,280
We want to control.
We want to control our

809
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,000
environment.
If we didn't control our

810
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,040
environment from from the
elements, our children would

811
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,800
die.
If we can control our food, our

812
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,600
children would die.
So is actually.

813
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,160
Us as a species has been always
trying to control control the

814
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,040
resources so that we can
procreate and pass on what we

815
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:52,800
have to others.
It's and so that and.

816
00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:56,320
Death is so scary for that's why
death is so scary, because we

817
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,680
have no, we, we don't know and
we have no control.

818
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,120
Yeah, as far as we know, you
know, And that that, that

819
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:02,360
really.
It's easy to go down to

820
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,320
philosophical right but that,
but again, reason for this in

821
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,640
the study of all these things,
because you understand context

822
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,680
of everyone, then you understand
what motivates people.

823
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,440
When you understand what
motivates people, which is

824
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,360
simple.
People want to feel safe.

825
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,520
Yeah.
I always think in terms of what

826
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,400
can I do to inspire someone to
feel safe with me, to inspire

827
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,440
them to feel safe to share
information, inspire someone to

828
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,080
feel safe, to say yes to my
operation.

829
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,640
What can I do to inspire my
children and feel safe sharing

830
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,920
information with me from their
perspective, which forces you

831
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,880
outside yourself into them to
talk in terms of their

832
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,920
challenges, priorities, pain
points and friction points in

833
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,320
life.
And, and the most important

834
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,040
thing is any great interviewer
will tell you the worst thing in

835
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,160
the world you can do is show
someone their shame because

836
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,800
everyone has shame.
And if you identify it, don't,

837
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,320
don't show it to them because
it's, and even though it might

838
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,800
be nothing to you, it's
something to them because again,

839
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,880
it's, it's meeting people where
they're at.

840
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,520
Is that that's what that means.
It means meet them what, how

841
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,400
they see the world through their
optic and lens, which is that

842
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,280
deep, deep, active empathy, that
empathy in terms of what some

843
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:05,960
people hear the words mushy,
gushy stuff.

844
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,640
No, it's empathy, which is
literally taking off your skin

845
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,240
and get inside theirs and see
through their eyes, their

846
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:14,720
experiences, their background,
their ethnicity, generation,

847
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:16,400
orientation.
I don't care what the hell it

848
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,920
is, it's their life.
And then you'll understand and

849
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,960
always understand this.
They are acting in what they

850
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,320
think is their best interests.
Give them the credit.

851
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,480
Now, granted you you think from
your armchair quarterback and

852
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,600
that you know what their best
interest should be.

853
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:33,720
Oh yeah, that's not from their
optic.

854
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,280
And that's why we get into
disagreements like this, just to

855
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,880
understand what's motivating
them to make those choices

856
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:42,840
because they think it's in the
right, right interest.

857
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,320
So find out what that is.
Let's try to twist this because

858
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,440
I'm having the time of my life
and I and I know that we're we,

859
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,120
we don't have.
Long in time, sorry.

860
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,520
But but I would like to, I'd
like to turn this into counter

861
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,320
Intel because I'm sure that a
lot of what you just said flows

862
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:00,760
into that.
And those are the things that I

863
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,120
will say to prompt the next, I
guess step is I teach in a

864
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:10,080
Jewish in high school and
especially obviously post

865
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,120
October 7th, a lot of times my
students were saying, you know,

866
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:14,360
you got to do this and they're
the bad guys.

867
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,320
And I said, can I ask you a
quick question?

868
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,000
I'm like, I'm not saying I'm not
saying you're wrong.

869
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:18,880
I'm not saying I disagree with
you.

870
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,240
I was like, what do you think
they're saying to themselves?

871
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:23,200
Like, what do you think their
defense is?

872
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,240
Like, do you, do you think they
say we're the bad guys and we're

873
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:29,640
just trying to be the bad guys?
And there's like, yeah.

874
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,160
And I said really?
You think that I think you, you

875
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,080
think that I was like, you think
that the kids that, you know,

876
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,680
that have their houses blown up
or that, you know, they see

877
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,120
their sister getting killed, God
forbid that they, you know, that

878
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,320
they, they just think I want to
be a bad guy.

879
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,400
You think that they think, Oh
no, they're the bad guys.

880
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,720
And, you know, we're just trying
to survive and do our own thing.

881
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,600
And I was like, we're we're
removing the context from the

882
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,400
conversation just to make it
about the way you feel about

883
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,840
something.
And and it's, I mean, I think

884
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,320
the term is called othering
people, right?

885
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:58,920
Yeah.
You know, it's us and it's them.

886
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,760
And then and there's a great,
there's a great book by the late

887
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,280
Jonathan Sacks, who was a
phenomenal, phenomenal,

888
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,560
phenomenal Jewish writer.
He was a professor at NYU or

889
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,240
Columbia, I forgot which one.
And he, he wrote a book called

890
00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:15,520
Not in God's Name, which is
basically the argument.

891
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,160
Listen, you got to set, you got
a list of that of instructions.

892
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,960
Anything else than that, don't
say it's in God's name.

893
00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:25,800
Don't say that you know that
we're doing this for God and

894
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,440
there's always an us and there's
always a demon.

895
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:31,520
We're allowing and, and by doing
that, we allow ourselves to do

896
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,760
to do to others.
They're not humans.

897
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:34,760
We can do anything you want to
them.

898
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,600
You know they're not, they're
not us.

899
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:38,440
We can do anything you want.
They don't feel the same way.

900
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,440
They don't suffer the same way.
I mean, how many times you hear

901
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,480
they're animals?
How many times you hear they're

902
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,080
you know that and and they're
not.

903
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,840
And so here's here's what
happens in every single one of

904
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,080
these situations.
So what inspires people to take

905
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,880
any action whatsoever, that is,
especially if it's going to be

906
00:43:54,880 --> 00:44:00,440
violent action or some sort of
action like that, is fear #1 the

907
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,080
only motivation of all of us to
do actions like that is fear.

908
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,840
And so how do we feel fear?
Or what happens next is the

909
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,800
people in control, the religion
of control.

910
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,840
Control.
What you're taking in is

911
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,240
information that's causing that
fear.

912
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,200
And so now you're being told I'm
fearful.

913
00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:25,640
Here's what's causing that fear.
Here's the actions you need to

914
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,120
take to overcome that fear.
We directed, yeah.

915
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,200
And so, and here's the fear we
all have, is the safety,

916
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,960
security and prosperity for
ourselves knows we care about.

917
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,480
Knowing that every human being
in any group and organization is

918
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,800
going to act in her best
interest in terms of safety,

919
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,120
security and prosperity for
ourselves knows we care about

920
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,480
and we're fearful of not being
in control of that.

921
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,920
The people around us controlling
our information input is telling

922
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,160
us what that fear is being
caused by is being caused by

923
00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:58,960
them the other and in order for
doing that.

924
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,160
So that's why cults work this
you know, every organization

925
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,920
that is going to do harm to
others that for the benefit

926
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:09,000
themselves and lead led by
charismatic individual that is

927
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,800
going to do horrendous thing.
That's a cult.

928
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:13,720
You know, that's the definition
of a cult.

929
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,880
And So what the cult then does
is they isolate when the other

930
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,400
things that cults do is they
isolate people from being able

931
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,960
to consume information outside
of their control.

932
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,200
And so a lot of times that's why
you get radicalization.

933
00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:31,320
You're only going to, it's only,
it's only legal to consume my

934
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,120
information.
And if you don't, here's your

935
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,760
fear, you're going to hell.
So this is how control happens.

936
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,480
This is how fear is used to
manipulate people to take

937
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,600
actions that they think are in
their best interest.

938
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:45,200
How did that?
So can you tell me, can you give

939
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,080
me maybe an example or two, if
you, if you can, of how this

940
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,240
would apply in the world of
counter Intel or or you know, at

941
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:54,040
least in your career and maybe
maybe highlight this point a

942
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,960
little?
Bit well, yeah, so people, a

943
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,920
typical question people ask is
so how do you recruit a spy?

944
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:01,720
How do you recruit an
individual?

945
00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:03,720
How do you recruit a an
extremist?

946
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,920
Well, first thing first thing
you have to do is you have to

947
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,040
identify a critical life need in
their life.

948
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,840
It's like if I'm recruiting a
spy, I have to see a critical, a

949
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,600
critical challenge of priority
that they're facing that that

950
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,960
needs solving.
And then at what scale and level

951
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,800
are they willing to do something
to overcome that critical life

952
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:25,880
challenge?
Say it's it's they don't want

953
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,760
their kids growing up under
Putin's regime.

954
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,440
Say it's because he's a
horrendous oligarch destroying

955
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,560
their country.
That's a critical life challenge

956
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,080
that they are, they don't want
their kids growing up in this

957
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:40,160
this kind of environment.
Then you have to place yourself

958
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,000
in their line of sight with a
solution.

959
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,560
Yes, I am a resource for you
overcoming this critical life

960
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,960
challenge.
And then the most important part

961
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,680
is because we often see, all
right, I have a challenge,

962
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,960
Ephraim, you can solve it.
But the biggest question, can I,

963
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,480
can I trust you with my life to
do it?

964
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,800
So now we're going to be testing
the other person's

965
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,800
trustworthiness and with when
making sure they have open eyes,

966
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,320
communication with us,
transparency, vulnerability, in

967
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:08,680
other words, owning their own
behavior.

968
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,480
Then their actions and deeds
have to be aligned with that.

969
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,560
They have to be, you know,
thinking in terms of us, we're

970
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,480
looking for emotional stability.
We're looking for all these

971
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,600
things in other human being to
see if I can actually trust them

972
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,520
commensurate to the level the
request that I'm I'm putting on

973
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,400
them.
And so that's how so that's how

974
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,040
I recruited spies.
You didn't you put yourself in

975
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,080
their line of sight knowing that
they have a critical life

976
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,600
challenge and needs solving.
I could be a person to do that

977
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,320
for you.
And I'm going to do that by

978
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:36,840
demonstrating these behaviors of
trust.

979
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,160
You can trust me with your
family's life and your own.

980
00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:42,680
And so now when you're thinking
in terms of radicalization is

981
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,040
same thing.
You're, you're you.

982
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:50,400
A lot of times you're telling
someone that's in pain or

983
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,200
feeling disenfranchised or
feeling down about something,

984
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,400
full of resentment towards
something they don't have a

985
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,920
place to direct yet because they
see themselves as a victim or as

986
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,040
a wound collector.
You're now getting someone

987
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,560
coming in, telling them, hey,
here's the cause of this

988
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,680
critical life challenge that you
have.

989
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,960
You want to feel safe.
You want your family to feel

990
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,840
safe.
I'm the resource that's going to

991
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:13,360
overcome that.
And here's what I'm going to do

992
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,160
to allow you to feel safe in my
environment.

993
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,000
See.
It's the same thing, no doubt.

994
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:23,320
No difference whatsoever.
And so I imagine that that

995
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,520
system, so the system of
incentive incentivizing and

996
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,680
offering security and
essentially what really

997
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:35,560
everyone's looking for probably
better method of recruiting and

998
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,520
changing minds rather than
threats and and other more and

999
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,040
malicious I guess methods.
Yeah, it absolutely does.

1000
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,120
So anytime you're going to use
coercion or manipulation in any

1001
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:51,000
kind of proactive way, what's
happening is you're making it a

1002
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,360
very transactional relationship.
Transactional relationships

1003
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,560
will, they can work.
You can get exactly what you're

1004
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,840
looking for from a transaction
relationship, but it's going to

1005
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,240
be extremely short term.
And typically the person that

1006
00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:06,440
you're getting the information
or getting the action from is

1007
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,200
going to have what I call
buyer's remorse.

1008
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,760
You know, they're going to leave
that interaction with you at

1009
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,120
some point not liking you, very
distasteful.

1010
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,040
And what that then does is it
destroys your brand.

1011
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,040
So say, say, I mean, the FSB,
the Russian FSB does a beautiful

1012
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,360
job of, of this.
As you know, what they'll do is

1013
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:29,840
they will abuse the local and
local diplomats in Moscow,

1014
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:35,920
whether it's CIA or MI 5 or or
or Shin Bet or, or anyone you

1015
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,040
know, they will abuse the local
diplomats by following them too

1016
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,600
close.
They'll, I'm, I've, I've, I know

1017
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,360
horror stories of like when CIA
officers, diplomats go on leave

1018
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,040
back home, the FSB will enter
their homes, they'll destroy

1019
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,560
homes, they'll leave, they'll
leave extra men in different

1020
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,920
parts of the house.
I mean, it's, it's, it's

1021
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:57,760
horrendous.
They just treat them very

1022
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,520
poorly.
So what happens is they have a

1023
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,160
negative reputation.
Who wants to volunteer to that?

1024
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:05,400
Who wants to cooperate with
that?

1025
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,840
So they use nothing but court.
And so then if they need to

1026
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,880
recruit someone as an
intelligence source, they can

1027
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,880
use a honey trap on them.
They can use blackmail on them,

1028
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,280
but then it becomes a very
transaction relation.

1029
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,920
Then they'd actually can't trust
the information they're getting.

1030
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,000
And so then you have to have
other sources to verify that

1031
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:22,080
information.
I mean, just look at all the

1032
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:23,480
work you're going through
because you're an ass.

1033
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,800
Meanwhile, if you if you become
the person that people want to

1034
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,120
work with, you become that
lighthouse, that beacon of trust

1035
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,920
and confidence.
And so even, I mean, we did this

1036
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,560
all the time in my organization.
So say I walked up and I had

1037
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,800
this beautiful operation over.
And these are never just one

1038
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,000
offs, never like walk up to a
stranger, say, hey, here's

1039
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:46,480
$1,000,000.
I wanted to cooperate.

1040
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,640
These are months, sometimes
years in development where you

1041
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,040
can create just the right
environment for them to feel

1042
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,840
safe to have an interaction and
dialogue with me where we can

1043
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,600
start maybe discussing some
critical life challenges and

1044
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,920
things I have to offer.
At the end of the day, if they

1045
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,560
say no, which is more times than
not, they decline the beautiful

1046
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,480
offer I have to solve this
critical life challenger in

1047
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,280
life.
And you leave like you just did

1048
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:09,720
right there with a smile on
their face.

1049
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,720
If they go back and tell their
friends, their colleagues, dude,

1050
00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:16,720
I was just approached by the FBI
and of course I said no.

1051
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,680
But then their friends and
family say, well, what was that

1052
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,760
experience like?
How they treat you now you have

1053
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:24,600
a positive brand.
Well, they're professional.

1054
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:25,920
They did this, this and this and
this.

1055
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,040
I mean, they craft this entire
operation, thousands of dollars

1056
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:34,760
worth of time, effort, and
resources just around me to make

1057
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,320
it perfect for me, free from
manipulation, free from

1058
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,040
subterfuge.
They just made the most

1059
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:43,280
beautiful moment they possibly
could because they knew what was

1060
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,240
wrong with my life.
And they're there for me with a

1061
00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:51,360
solution without it, without,
without reciprocity, without

1062
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,000
expectations of, of, of
coercion.

1063
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,800
That's a beautiful moment.
Who, who wouldn't want to have a

1064
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:58,920
conversation with me?
That's why we do it the way I do

1065
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,200
it.
So can I ask and I really, I

1066
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,600
mean, I'm really just wondering
and you can either correct me,

1067
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,280
disagree or agree or neither,
whatever.

1068
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,120
But you know, one of the things
that I've been reading about and

1069
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:15,000
one of the reasons why globally
China has become such a huge

1070
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,960
business presence and economic
presence was because from my

1071
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,240
understanding again, and this is
purely based on my

1072
00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:26,000
understanding, maybe you can
correct me that America for

1073
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:31,200
America's economic exchanges,
right?

1074
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:36,320
We could call them very loosely,
I guess, which would be in South

1075
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,400
or Central America or the Middle
East or throughout the world

1076
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,760
really was that we'd give you
would give them a loan.

1077
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:45,200
And then we would demand that if
the loan wasn't paid back that

1078
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:50,520
we would extract either, you
know, resources or military

1079
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,600
bases or you or votes or, you
know, come along with us on our

1080
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,360
agenda.
And a lot of countries felt like

1081
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,720
we were being too transactional
and China would come in and say,

1082
00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:01,880
hey, we're not going to be as
pushy.

1083
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,200
We don't build military bases,
you know, in other countries and

1084
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:09,160
that could and that ostensibly,
at least for the last 2025 years

1085
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,400
has led to a global shift in
perspective and, and and and

1086
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,360
attitude towards America versus
China.

1087
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,800
Now China's having its own
problems as far as quality and

1088
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,880
as far as they do eventually
start to show, you know, the

1089
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,400
true colors behind their that
behind their loans, of course,

1090
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:31,120
But what do you think?
I think that I think that what

1091
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,720
you're saying is beautiful and
accurate, and I think that it's

1092
00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:36,040
true, and I think that it's a
whole nother fight to actually

1093
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:41,120
get a country to act in that way
on a, you know, on a on a even

1094
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:45,520
on a semi regular basis.
But my concern is that or you

1095
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,640
know, just as a guy growing up,
just a 30 year old data too, is

1096
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,720
that while you're saying all
these things that are true, a

1097
00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:54,440
lot of times we see and maybe
it's just the stories we hear.

1098
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,400
And maybe it's just that it's
the bad news that gets

1099
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:57,880
publicized and pushed to the
front.

1100
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,320
But it doesn't, it doesn't feel
like we act as that as often as

1101
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,160
you probably should.
And the proof would be in the

1102
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,800
pudding in the sense that a lot
of sentiment around the world is

1103
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,760
that, hey, we don't want to deal
with deals with America.

1104
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,800
And if it comes down to dealing
with America or China or dealing

1105
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,600
with America in another country,
then maybe maybe it's worth

1106
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:15,840
taking a shot with another
country.

1107
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:17,800
Do you have any thoughts on
that?

1108
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,920
It's a really interesting
observation about the

1109
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,280
transactional viewpoint versus
long term.

1110
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,920
So dealing with China first, the
they are very good at what they

1111
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:28,800
do because they do play a very
long game.

1112
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:30,800
Yeah, them have looked into
every four years.

1113
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,080
Out of every nation state in the
world, I think China is probably

1114
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:35,760
the most patient.
And they're also, they

1115
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:37,520
understand the philosophy of
they.

1116
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,760
They will steal an entire beach
1 grain of sand at a time.

1117
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,560
They grind like that, very slow,
very methodical, very patient,

1118
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:51,320
very practiced.
They everyone's and I'll, I'll

1119
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,840
say everyone in this most
people's capacity to do what I

1120
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,760
just described about how to have
it one of these conversations

1121
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:01,160
and how to have an an actual
alliance and create, you know, a

1122
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:05,000
recruitment op opportunity is
very few, very few people have

1123
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:06,280
the ability to do it because
why?

1124
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,040
Because nation states are
battling for resources, you

1125
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,160
know, so I mean, think about it.
If a nation state could actually

1126
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:16,320
act like we just had discussion
of the Putin's of the world

1127
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:17,440
would come in and roll over
them.

1128
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,720
And so in order to it's an
interesting dichotomy in order

1129
00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:30,360
to counter the, the the supreme,
you know, Machiavellian, you

1130
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:36,200
know, horrendous individuals,
nation states in the world, you

1131
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,000
have to face them with
resistance because otherwise the

1132
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,960
warlord, because they'd be are
typically as as a species are

1133
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:44,720
warlords.
The warlords will come and roll

1134
00:55:44,720 --> 00:55:46,400
over you because they want your
resources.

1135
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:48,320
Yeah.
They don't want to feel a threat

1136
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,480
from you in any way.
But the only way to do that is

1137
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,000
to get people inside their
organization to undermine them.

1138
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:57,280
And how do you get people inside
their own organization,

1139
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,600
undermine them?
Like we were talking about, you

1140
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,320
know, it's it's it's a
fascinating.

1141
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,360
That's why I was saying, you
know, as we're on our break

1142
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,720
before, you know, it's, well,
actually not on break, But when

1143
00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:09,240
I was talking about
Neanderthals, you know, it's

1144
00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:12,360
interesting studying us as not
just nation states, but as a

1145
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,320
species, what we tend to do
because that helps us predict

1146
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,520
behavior much better.
And because one thing you can

1147
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,400
do, you can really fall down the
trap of hope sometimes.

1148
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,680
So, like, I hope Putin will be
different next time.

1149
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,160
No, he won't.
This guy's got, you know, when I

1150
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,400
was an FBI in New York in
199697, you know who the

1151
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,680
president was, just came in
Putin, He's been around a long

1152
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:35,240
time.
He's got reps and being this

1153
00:56:35,240 --> 00:56:38,920
way, he's extremely predictable.
Russians have been doing things

1154
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,160
like this for an extremely long
time.

1155
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,840
Life arcs, I call him.
When we can establish a pattern

1156
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,200
behavior with someone, the
likelihood of them deviating is

1157
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:52,520
almost zero unless a new factor
comes in and spikes it.

1158
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,040
And if they do change of
behavior, then you have to then

1159
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,440
zero in on what caused that
change of behavior because

1160
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,480
unless there's something major,
they're not going to change it.

1161
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,640
Putin's always going to do what
he's going to do.

1162
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,840
And so they you can keep trying
these different things, but his

1163
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:06,480
actions are going to remain
exactly the same.

1164
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:12,160
And so it's a fascinating thing
as a species to understand what

1165
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:14,160
a lot of horrendous people will
do.

1166
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,320
They're going to want to come in
and take your resources to make

1167
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,440
themselves feel safe because
they have a distorted view of

1168
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,840
what that safety can look like.
Definitely, definitely.

1169
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,880
OK.
And then I guess, and I guess

1170
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:29,080
the hope lies in the individuals
like yourself and myself that

1171
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:36,200
are trying to, that are trying
to have this organic, you'd call

1172
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,200
it a grassroots type of positive
influence and, and really trying

1173
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,040
to encourage the kind of
behaviour that we were just

1174
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,560
talking about that, you know,
and I think it all comes down

1175
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,000
to, you know, the way I like to
put these kind of things is junk

1176
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:51,880
food or health food.
You know, a lot of this stuff

1177
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,640
can be done, can be consumed
quickly, easily, like a bag of

1178
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:56,480
chips and hey, you know, I'm
hungry.

1179
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,240
Grab a bag of chips off the off
the shelf.

1180
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:00,280
I'm good to go.
Or you could take a little bit

1181
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,120
of time and you could, you know,
cut it, you know, you know, dice

1182
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,880
an onion and cut up some celery
and make some tuna fish and, and

1183
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:07,640
have, and get a, get a good
protein meal.

1184
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:09,760
And it might take a little
longer and it might require a

1185
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,800
little bit more patience and it
may take a little cleaning up,

1186
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,080
but you're going about things in
a healthy way and organic way

1187
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:17,960
that people could really feel
that is, is really beneficial

1188
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,240
to, to hopefully really everyone
involved.

1189
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:23,360
And I don't think there's a
problem with benefiting with

1190
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:24,400
other people.
I really don't.

1191
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,040
I think that if you bring
something to the table that

1192
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,000
other people benefit from, then,
you know, hats off to you and

1193
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:30,920
you deserve a little bit too,
for sure.

1194
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,080
I think that, I think that we
just have to, I think we, I

1195
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,840
think that we can't get too
complacent with institutions

1196
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:43,400
because institutions are almost
inherently sociopathic and

1197
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,600
individuals are much more
feeling.

1198
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,040
And so I think we need to focus
on individuals rather than

1199
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:50,640
institution.
A good balance of everything,

1200
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,800
you know, everything's a balance
to me, you know, and so, and the

1201
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:56,800
balance maintained is the
balance that you need to have.

1202
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:58,880
So you don't have resentment
towards organizations,

1203
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,080
institutions or individuals
because of resentment is what

1204
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,920
starts us down the path of the
dark triad, you know, of

1205
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:09,320
machiavelliism, narcissism and
psychopathy when violence starts

1206
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,960
ensuing.
So it's just keeping a good

1207
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:19,200
healthy balance being of service
and but also the I don't get

1208
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:23,480
wrapped up in, in I hope things
will get better or things like

1209
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,280
that, because the world's going
to do what the world's going to

1210
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,760
do.
I'm more focused on what

1211
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,400
behaviors can I model for the
people around me and, and just

1212
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,600
be that much.
I mean, really the only thing we

1213
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,720
are individually doing of
consequence on this planet, each

1214
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,200
one of us individually is
modeling the behavior for those

1215
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,080
around of us, of those that are
impacted by us of how to have

1216
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:48,800
healthy relationships in their
lives.

1217
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,920
And if we can model the behavior
of how to have a healthy, strong

1218
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,520
relationship with them and they
touch six more people and they

1219
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,360
touch six more, you know,
generationally that's how you do

1220
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,440
it.
But anything else in life, it's

1221
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,240
it's it's.
It's, it's nothing.

1222
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,360
It's literally the only that's
why I'm always just focused on

1223
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:08,880
what behaviors can I model to my
kids, which are amazing human

1224
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,600
beings that they can then model
and watch my kids do things and

1225
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,880
have the types of relationships
that I have modeled for them.

1226
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,160
It's a win.
I'm good, you know, that's and

1227
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:22,000
so it's just modeling those
behaviors for others because if

1228
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:26,560
we focus too far out on what we
hope things will be, you lose

1229
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:28,280
track of what you need to be
today.

1230
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:30,320
You know, Eckhart Tolle, another
beautiful author.

1231
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:32,480
I love the power of now.
You.

1232
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,680
Know time is a construct that we
created because we're all

1233
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:41,320
literally living only now, can't
control what's happened

1234
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:45,000
yesterday and we certainly can
only hopefully influence what's

1235
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:46,840
going to go on tomorrow.
But the only thing we are

1236
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,920
actually in control of is that
our own personal actions right

1237
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,840
now, right?
Yes, I think that's I think it's

1238
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,240
a beautiful place to leave it.
Robin, thank you so much for

1239
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:58,440
your time.
I hope we can do this again

1240
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,160
because I could probably because
I could talk to you for a very

1241
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,200
long time about a lot more, I'm
sure of your experiences and

1242
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:06,560
thoughts.
But I think that this is this is

1243
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:08,880
really awesome and I really
appreciate your time.

1244
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,880
And I'm so happy that we found
that we're able to make this

1245
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:14,520
work and keep following up and
and make it happen.

1246
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:15,840
And I hope we can do this again
sometime.

1247
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,200
Thanks Ephraim, you too.
Great conversation, can't wait

1248
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,080
for the next one.
A lot of fun, thank you.