#139: Sheekha Singh / Avoiding Burnout / Balancing Life / India -> Nebraska -> Canada

0:01 Welcome to another episode of Come Together and we're Live Chica. Welcome. I'm so happy to have you on. I'm so excited for this conversation. Thank you friend. It's a pleasure to be on your show of. Course, so I came across your profile on pod match and a couple of things immediately jumped out at me. And one of them was your book, your newest book about burning out ambition and kind of how to maintain, you know, your maintain productivity despite occasional burnout.

0:49 And it struck me as particularly important because I, I'm someone that in the last couple of years, let's say, since I've just turned 30, So since I turned 25, I had gotten married, had two kids, bought a house, sold the house, started a podcast, started teaching and started jujitsu, you know, and maintaining sales and doing other work. And throughout the last couple of years, there have been so many times where I just felt like throwing my face in a pillow and screaming or, you know, running away forever or doing and, and, and, and, and I've been trying, I've been on a personal journey to try and figure out how to maintain my productivity, be kind to myself without beating myself up because I know that when I do that, I end up burning out even faster. And, and how to keep it up.

1:48 And, you know, so I would love to hear your thoughts and you look like you do so much on your own. And so I'd love to hear about you and how you managed to balance everything. Of course. And thank you again for that wonderful question. Congratulations first of all. Thank you. I think. You deserve a huge kudos for doing all of those things. That to Josh when you turned 30, that's a lot. So I have to tell you, it sounds like you're an overachiever and that's exactly why I wrote the book. It was, I know it was intended for overachievers, but like you mentioned, for people like us who want to do multiple things and give our 100% all the time, we have this expectation on our shoulders and this kind of a goal that we set for ourselves, which is not healthy.

2:39 We think it is healthy because we've done it in the past. And you know, you're like, oh, yeah, I'm, I've been doing this from 25 and now I'm 30. I can do everything. But the truth is it sometimes ends up taking more out of you than you originally intended for it to do. And by it I mean your dreams, your goals, milestones, your whatever you want to call it, like different name for the same thing. So the problem here is I wanted to tackle it from first of all, I didn't know that I was burning out because like you, I also end up doing a lot of different things and I feel like I can give it my best all the time.

3:23 And so in doing that, I put myself through so much that I did not even realize that I was burning out. I didn't know that all the symptoms that I had were pointing towards burnout and that my body was saying please stop it, we've had enough. And you? Describe some of the symptoms that you a feeling because I'm curious about that. Yes, definitely. Fatigue, constant irritation, then snapping at your partner or your kids or your pets or whatever. Getting annoyed by smallest little thing and then putting yourself through so much and saying it's just another project, I can do it, it's just one more hour, I can do it, It's just one more thing and I can do it.

4:05 Sometimes it can also be occasional dizziness, loss of appetite and also faking would be one of the biggest symptoms. So if you find yourself that you're faking a smile or you're trying to be someone because you've been that in the past and you loved it, that would also be one of the symptoms of burnout. And so I started doing this and I realized that, wait, why am I constantly being annoyed and irritated that my partner for no reason, you know, I'm doing everything that I wanted to do. I'm having a podcast, I'm writing a book, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, handling my 9:00 to 5:00 job. And then finally I was like, OK, I think I have to do something about it. So when I started doing my research, I realized that most of it is related to what success means to you. Nice.

4:55 Yes, because for overachievers, you know, you ask anybody anything, no matter what the definition is, end of the day, they want to be successful. And the reason why they're doing this is they're trying to check off all those boxes. I was the same. You were the same. But when I realized that the definition of success is what kind of molds the entire being of yourself and why you're doing certain things, that was when I realized, OK, I'm taking a step back. I don't have to do all of this. I'm going to be fine even if I don't record one podcast episode today. So that was the whole intention why I wrote the book and added a lot of different tips after each chapter in the book, added a lot of science back, art articles, research articles, and then added the immigrant point of view because, and I can speak to it later on, but that was the whole high level overview of burnout and overachievers.

5:52 I love it, I love it. I love that. Sounds amazing. Can I ask if you don't mind, because I actually had experienced a lot of these same symptoms as as you're describing, particularly the suppressed appetite was something that happened to me. And I found myself. And it's funny, my mom, who's a typical Jewish mom, you know, sat me down and said, you're too skinny. And he said, hey, you know, you lost, you lost a lot of weight. You're stressing me out. And I'm like, I promise, I'm not like avoiding. I'm not trying to avoid food. I just find myself just, you know, I find myself blinking and the whole day's gone. And I realized that I didn't do anything, you know, and it wasn't even, it wasn't even conscientious. But a lot of times it almost feels, especially when we're trying to accomplish something, like we're almost like in a Daydream where we sometimes forget that like, hey, I should be, I haven't laughed in a while, or I haven't, you know, I have been snappier. How come I have been a little bit less patient? What do you think we can do or people can do to even wake themselves up to even be aware that they might be starting to burn out?

6:53 Thing, and this sounds very stupid and very weird when I tell this to everyone but the thing and So what I did was before I even I get to the actual answer to that question, if I'm what I did was I actually implemented all the tips that I mentioned in the book. And so it's tried and tested. So one of the most important thing that I can suggest to people who are undergoing all of this is take 10 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes and do nothing. I'm telling you it makes a huge difference. And I actually, because, you know, people like us are so dependent on our calendars and our, you know, schedule that we do everything according to it.

7:36 OK, this time to this time you're doing this, this to this. I even got anxious because, you know, before this, I'm like, OK, I have to be on this from 12:00 PM. And then I have another thing. So what I do, and it sounds very lame, but I actually schedule time to do nothing on my calendar. And when you say nothing, you mean scroll on your phone or what do you mean nothing? Nothing. Just sit. And do nothing. I know it sounds very weird. No, it's amazing. I love it. Yeah. Yeah, because I live in Canada and winters, you really cannot do anything. Quite literally, it was -32 this weekend. But in the summers when I when that reminder would pop up on my calendar saying, oh, it's time to do nothing, I would just sit out in the front yard or the backyard and just stare at the plants or the trees or people walking by and I did nothing.

8:27 And it's so difficult. Like it sounds easy, but it's so damn difficult because 1st, if you're an overachiever and you have 10 things on your list, your mind is going to be OK. What am I going to do next? Oh, you know what, I should reply to this e-mail or I should go check this thing. Maybe I should just tell my editor one, I got another idea. You know all those things. So you will be forced to train your mind to actually think nothing and do nothing. It's very difficult. Sounds super easy, but very difficult. So that is one of the things that you can start and 2nd actually you're already on the right track because you, you know that you're losing appetite and that you've lost that appetite because you have made sure that you've scheduled your entire day and filled it with things that you thought were giving you joy.

9:19 So my entire goal when I was going through all of this was that you know what? I can do another thing. Why? Because I love doing it. I can add another interview on the podcast. Why? Because I love being a podcast host. So things like that. But then when I realized, OK, my fitness is all over, I'm not doing anything, or maybe I'm overdoing it. I remember one day, again, it was winter of last year, and I was editing on the laptop. I'm like, you know what? I shouldn't be just editing and sitting on a chair for so long. So I got my walking pad out and I started walking and I didn't realize that I walked for at least I think 10 to 12 kilometers at a stretch without even realizing it because I was constantly on the laptop. And next day, obviously, I woke up to blisters on my food, on my feet and I'm like, what is going on? So the first step, you are actually halfway there because you've realized it and you're aware that you're doing this thing.

10:18 So second is try to make sure that you're cutting things off and setting boundaries even with yourself and your goals. The biggest thing that anybody can learn is to say no. Yeah, once you start, and for people like us, it's very difficult because we know we can do it, We've already done it, and we know we're going to kill it. Like another episode. Yes, let's do it. Another thing, yes, let's do it. But just to protect your energy, you got to be selfish. And the minute you start saying no, you are automatically going to see that difference. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's, that's, that's really great advice, especially the just being because I think that I think our brains, I don't believe have been meant to be so stimulated constantly on, you know, it's such a regular basis with so many over, over stimulate.

11:12 I just like everything is just coming at us all the time. Our phones, our screens that, you know, traffic, emails, texts, like there's no, there's no break until just putting time aside is, is so important. The other thing I wanted to and something I noticed. And now I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. And then I want to also, I would love to hear about the immigrant, the immigration process and about India a little bit. I have a good friend from that I post college that that was that that's from Mumbai that actually lives there now and he's one of my favorite people in the entire world. And, and I'd love to just hear a little bit about your story. But one thing I did notice and want to hear your thoughts was, you know, I'm sure everyone you live and die by your calendar.

11:55 You have like those things that you have, you know, schedule that you want to do every day. And especially because a lot of success comes from habit building. And a lot of times when you build habits equals routine. And one thing that I noticed was sometimes if you try to keep everything dialed up to 10 all the time, then everything comes crashing down. But if you kind of play around with different things and you say, OK, today, this week, the podcast could be a level 6 effort out of 10. But that means everything else could stay at 8 or 9 out of 10. And then the next week, OK, well, you know what? I'm pretty tired physically, so maybe I won't work out as hard this week. But everything else is able to be maintained at A at a higher level.

12:35 You learn to kind of how to balance and be kind to yourself when you let one thing of all those things you're dealing with, you know, not be optimal just for the sake of letting everything else continue. Do you find that that something that happens to you? Exactly, yes, 100%. And you're right. Exactly right. What you mentioned was rescheduling your life. That's what I did after I finished the book. I did. After, you know, I finished all the research and I actually implemented those. I sat down and I thought to myself, what would happen if I don't take on another guest for the podcast?

13:15 What would happen if I don't release an episode this week? Nothing, nothing great's going to happen. The world's not going to end. Nobody's going to stop. Your analytics will still be fine. People might miss you if you have a huge following. I'm not Joe Rogan, but still, you know, you'll be fine. And there are people in the world who are not doing all the things that you're doing, and they're still living an amazing life. So that's exactly what I did. When you decide to take control, I call that taking control of your calendar. I tell people all the time, I used to be a productive activity, you know, fanatic. Like I was obsessed with all the apps.

13:58 I was obsessed with using different kinds of things my To Do List everything. But then when I started changing my mindset and thinking about things that way, that's when the shift started. Yeah, right. Exactly. Know what your body is trying to tell you and be aware of how you're acting with people who are close to you. And then adjust just all other things and prioritize accordingly because juggling too many things literally, quite literally drains all of your energy because you're wearing a different hat all the time. Yeah. Like if I have my 9:00 to 5:00 job, I'm my mind is totally different. But when I'm a podcast host, I am acting in a different way.

14:42 And then I have to switch hats and be a different person. So yeah. And people just say, oh, yeah, you're staring at screens all the time. But even that drains your energy because you're talking. You want to be good. You want to be presentable, and you want to be the best. And like you said, you know on days that you're feeling low, maybe cancel that interview or cancel the meeting or don't work out too much. It's OK if you don't get your 10,000 steps that day. You're still going to be fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it kind of goes back and forth because there's certain people that need to hear this and then there's certain people that need to hear the opposite of this. And, you know, and that, you know, we need a little bit of urgency in our in our day-to-day life.

15:22 And I think that everything is all about finding that perfect balance and trying to figure that out. So if you're listening and you know, you're using this as an excuse to allow yourself to have another day off when you don't know that you necessarily necessarily need one, then we're not telling you quite to do that. But we're, you know, we're talking about burnout over here. And I think that it's, I think it's really important. So, so far we have almost like an outline of steps that we've already kind of made our way through, which would be to take some time on a regular basis to do nothing. And it kind of allow whatever is going to bubble up in our head to just emerge naturally. And that becomes, and to learn to recognize ourselves essentially. And then with that, you can learn how to reprioritize your schedule, your calendar, take control over it and and then identify things that are healthy or unhealthy and how you can figure out tackling it. And I like, I love the example of, of, of juggling too many balls because there's the way I like to think of it is if one of them falls, you could at least like, OK, one falls for now. But if all of them crash at one time, then it's a nightmare. And then you have the risk of all them breaking. So and so it's going to happen eventually. You either learn to figure out to let a ball slip every now and then, especially if you're balancing too much or, or you risk just one big burnout and that and that happens too. Can you?

16:44 So let's use the second-half of this to talk a little bit about who you are. If you want to tell me a little bit where you can't, you know where you came from and who you are of. Course, yeah, that was the whole point of adding the immigrant point of view for the second book. So I'll also tell you what the first book was about because it kind of ties to my story. I grew up in India and I moved to Omaha, NE in the US in 2014 for my master's degree. I got a master's degree in Management Information systems, worked there for some time, wanted to write a book. 2014 you said? I'm sorry. Yes. OK, gotcha. Cool.

17:25 Worked in, worked in Omaha for some time, and then I wanted to write a book. I was on the H1B visa, which is the work visa in the US, and you cannot have any other passive income other than your 9:00 to 5:00. So I decided I have to do something about this urge to do something. So I'm applied for permanent residency in Canada, got that, moved here in 2020 and been here since. I'm yeah, five years. It'll be 6 years this summer. And then published my second book in Jan of this year. That was what we're talking about. Awesome trip. So how so? You said you came to the states when for for for masters programs?

18:10 So you must have been your early 20s. Yes, that's. Correct. OK, gotcha. And what was, I mean, I think most people don't know what Omaha, NE is like. What was the what was the, what was the culture shock like for you coming from one place to the next? You know, the first thing is I didn't realize how quiet it was because I come from a southern city in India, Hyderabad, and I am used to being around people and I am used to going to places, hanging out with friends all the time, celebrating things. And when I came to Omaha, everyone was so different than all my friends back home, even though they were Indians. Like I had the community.

18:54 Great people. But still, you know, it's like, oh, what are we doing for New Year's Eve? Nothing. What are we doing for a birthday? Nothing. And that was obviously very cold because, you know, it's the Midwest and winters are brutal. We had no car. We had nothing. So I had to walk in winter to the classes. I did my internship to pay for the rent and everything else. So you would have your internship from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM and then your classes from 5:00 PM to 8:00 PM. And then after that, you have to be just grilling yourself trying to get the assignments done, trying to get your housework done.

19:38 You know, you're sharing rooms, apartments, you're trying to cook, you're trying to save money, all of that. So it was just chaotic. Wow, very chaotic. Yeah. So you it's says that you're working a lot harder than the average college college student, unfortunately, but that's but I'm sure that I'm sure that had a huge impact on you. What was the internship that you did? I was a Java engineer for a company called Union Pacific. Oh it was so much fun. I had to wear formals even on Fridays. And and and and and and tell me so. So Canada makes makes sense, especially because because if you want to be able to do anything extra like you said, then then you got to be able to do that.

20:22 Where'd you move to? How do you like Canada? It's so much fun, it's beautiful. First of all, it's amazing. People are so friendly. Again, Omaha, I made great friends, great Co workers. I'm still in touch with a lot of them. So many people have visited us in the past years from Omaha, so I love the connections that I made there and I'm really glad I got experienced that. But people in Canada are less non judgmental, I mean compared to the Americans and they're very friendly, very sweet, very friendly. We moved here during COVID and I remember we were in the the Toronto downtown. I moved it to Ontario.

21:04 Now I live 3 hours from Toronto in a very small. Town Toronto. I've noticed you you don't have the second T in there. So yeah, but I remember it was 2020, September, COVID, Canada had very, very strict rules and we were lost. We had to go to this government building and we just couldn't find it. And just a random due to smoking on the side of the road is like, Oh my God, are you guys lost? Do you need help? Can I help you with something? And I'm like, I'm sure, OK, because we're not used to this when we were in Omaha. Not so like, yes, people are friendly where you go on a walk, people smile at you, but not this friendly.

21:46 And then we started to realize, wow, Canadians are really very sweet and kind and fun. I'm one now, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes sense. It looks like you're kind of people. I think that, you know, I was reading a great book. I'm sure, I don't know, I'm sure you've heard of it called Oh man, it was about social media. Jonathan hate the ancient generation. And one thing that he one thing that he was talking about was the fact that in America at this point, for some, for whatever reason, and there's probably a ton of them, we all kind of look at other adults and other strangers, like potential threats.

22:30 And like everyone that you don't know is a danger or is stranger danger is whatever. And like, and the truth is that I'm sure that it came probably well and you know, with some good intentions and probably came from somewhere. But what we inadvertently have done was just make a very, very suspicious Society of like everyone else. And I don't know how I would feel, especially if I were you, if I was just a woman walking around lost trying to find a building, if I was just by myself trying to find a guy. Because I don't think it's funny. I'm and I talk to my friends about this all the time. I'm 6430. I'm a 30 year old man and I don't, I don't imagine myself as a six, 430 year old man.

23:10 I look at myself like I'm just me. I'm just, I'm just a dude, you know, and someone walks up to me and goes, Hey, you need help, you know, do you need any direction where to go? I would run. I wouldn't even know what to do. It shows you the extent of, of how suspicious we are. It's it's a really, really interesting thing you say that that does, that culture doesn't exist as much in Canada. Yeah, no, everyone's like you don't get the feeling that you have to run away from something. You're so welcome. Even if you just go stop at a bar or restaurant, there are chances that at least five people talk to you and you will walk out of the bar making friends. That's good after, right? Yeah. It's the best feeling.

23:50 It's the best feeling. Can you tell me about the research project of writing your books and what went into that? It sounds like there's a lot of, there's a lot of different topics that you need to kind of read about and learn about in order to really speak about this. So how'd you go about that? Correct. So that's where the immigrant POV comes in the picture. When I started doing the research, I wanted to figure out why I'm doing this, and I found the entire reason to be the definition of success. And I realized that for me at least, my past or my immigrant experience plays a huge role in what I believe success to be or success to look like.

24:33 You know, when you move countries, when you're starting from scratch, especially if you're moving to a developed country, there are expectations on your shoulder no matter who you are. You can come from a rich family or a poor family or a middle class family, doesn't matter. You have, you know, people tell you and it starts from a very young age. If you were a smart or a bright kid and if you were into multiple things, people often tell you, oh, you know what? You're going to be the next so and so or you're going to be someone great one day. Your teachers tell you that oh, you have a bright future. You know you're going to be someone amazing someday. You're going to be a big person and you somehow forget about it as you're growing up. But then after a certain point in life, you're sitting down and you realize, OK, what did they mean when they would tell those things, right?

25:24 And what did I even do? They must have seen something in me, and they must have thought that I'm capable, but all I'm doing right now is doing my job and paying bills. Is that what's called being successful? And so I thought that me thinking that way drove a lot of my projects and my actions. So I kept wanting to prove to all those people whoever said, oh, you know what, You're going to be someone someday. Like, yes, I, I am going to be that someone someday. And I ended up doing this, this, this and this because I thought, OK, that's what's called being successful. And so when I started doing the research, it's actually proven that most of the burnout, especially at workplaces, one, obviously it depends on the systems that you have for yourself.

26:11 Second, it's on the definition of success. And that's heavily more like it tends towards the negative side of things for immigrants because 1st, that's culture shock. Second, you're trying to improve your lifestyle, you're trying to be someone better. And then there's the baggage thing like your parents, your responsibilities, you're like, oh, now you're earning more. You're, you have a good lifestyle. What about people back home? What are you doing to help them? And so now you're in this constant cycle. But then on the other hand, you're like, OK, I am there now. I have a big house, I have a car. I have, you know, family. I have this, I have that. But somehow it doesn't look like I'm successful because constantly as an immigrant, you've been taught while you were growing up a different definition of success. So what was the definition?

27:03 What was what's? What's the definition you grew up with? So for me, what I grew up with you, you need to be rich, you need to be, you need to have a good, you need to settle down. And that's what's called. Being successful. Right. So I thought, OK, I'm settled down now. I'm 33, I have a house, I have a car. Now what? So, so all those things play a huge role. And when I started doing my research, I realized that that is in fact true. How you perceive success drives a lot of the things that you do in your adult life and that work, that is one of the most important thing that causes burnout. And the second thing I wanted to touch is systems. Often times systems don't work for us, they work against us, especially for overviewers, right?

27:51 Like I said, calendar, it's a productivity tool. You're scheduling everything. But how does it make sense if your calendar has failed from 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM? That is not productive. So things like that. So you need to try. I have a lot of research in the book where I try to figure out all these reasons, Backed it up with articles, proven strategies for burnout and what it means to find success. So someone, let's say there's an immigrant watching or listening to this episode and they're like, yes, that's what I thought success being successful was, but what is success to me? Then there's another article that I've cited from one of the books called Finding Your True North, and that tells you what it means to actually find what you love and what a successful life looks like to you.

28:38 So yeah, there's a lot of things. Go check it out and it's going to be helpful. I I'm sure, I'm sure. Well, what, what how is your sense of how is your sense of success change? What do you look at it as now? No burnout. That's what you look at. You look at like success equals balance or healthy. Yes, balance. And second thing is I want to be present. My friends make fun of me saying that oh, we finally got an appointment in your schedule and then we finally got time to be. So. I just want to be present and I don't want to be tied to my calendar. I want the freedom to be financially free, but also to do things that I actually love without getting burned out.

29:26 Yeah, I grew up with, and I love this. I'm very lucky I have this. I grew up with the mentality. A lot of people go up with the mentality of you have to achieve XY and Z to be rich. You need a million dollars, 5 million dollars, 10 million, whatever it is, or you need XY and Z car, XY and Z, whatever. The way we grew up was, we just want to do what we feel like doing. So like, you know, if this week we just feel like getting pizza, then like that's all like we want, you know, and like, OK, so how do you figure out a way to make 20 bucks to make some pizza, you know, to get some pizza or, you know, like there was no, it was no, it was always very subjective. There was no, it was always, hey, what do we, what do we want? And sometimes in life, and you know, we, everyone goes through this curve where as you go through responsibilities and take on more aspects of your life, you got to make more money.

30:09 And then, and then as your expenses go down and you're, and you become a little bit less being this, you're less the sole orbiter of money in your, in your life, then the money goes down. And, and you should be OK with that because at the end of the day, like there you are exchanging, like there is a, there is a trade off happening. And you are getting presumably, hopefully time back. You are getting flexibility. You are getting the ability to invest in yourself and your passions and and finally to not burn out. I think it's wonderful. Where can people find you and find your, your, your social media or whatever it is before we before we close out for today? Sure.

30:49 So all my books are on Amazon. You can search for my name or you can search for the title. The second one is Unburnable Ambition and Anything About Me. All the writing stuff is on an Instagram handle that says Shikha Singh, under score writer for all the writing stuff. And the podcast is Rise and Tell with Shikha again, all the information you can find on my website, shikasingh.com. Awesome. You're gonna share it. And this is so much fun. Thanks so much for coming on tonight. Thank you so much, it was a pleasure and a blast to be on your show. Yeah, So nice meeting you. Best of luck with everything. Talk soon. Bye.