143: Daniel Heck / AI and Authenticity / Lessons from Religion / Fear & Hope for the Future

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and we're Live.
Welcome back, Dan.

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It's good to have you back in
the show.

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So happy that you agreed to come
back on again.

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Yeah, glad to talk to you again
too.

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Yeah, you know, it's funny.
So I I mean, first of all, I

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really did.
I loved our conversation and one

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of the reasons I loved our first
conversation was because I had a

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script of bullet points that I
wanted to talk to you about.

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And then we, I kind of ran out
of those about 45 minutes in and

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we're still able to riff and
talk and hang out for an extra

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like half an hour.
So that's when I, that's when I

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said this was a great episode
and I was really happy about

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that.
And then, you know, I reached

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back out and just stay in touch.
And then last week, my friend

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sent me a text message in a
group chat with some weird, you

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know, I iCloud e-mail address.
And it was something at clawed,

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A clawed AI.
And and it turns out that he had

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built this claw, this open claw.
Yeah.

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And I actually did a podcast
with him last week with, with,

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with, with, with the person he
calls him with AI, he calls him

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slugger.
And he was able to join the

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podcast and actually join the
conversation and participate

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with us.
And that's when I said, hey, we

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got, I would love to talk to Dan
now about what in the world the

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implications are and where we
are today and what the ethics of

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everything are with, with this.
So I just that that that's a,

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that's a, that's a prompt to
this conversation.

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That makes, that makes a lot of
sense.

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Yeah.
And watching some of the same

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things, I have opted to wait a
little bit, not be quite on the

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bleeding edge of clawed bot
slash, bot slash, open claw

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adoption.
But I appreciate the the brave

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souls who are doing it and
telling me what's happening.

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Crazy.
It's scary.

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It's really, really because
it's, it's, it's, it's learning

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to, to mimic and replicate
personality styles on online,

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right?
So like it picks up my friend's

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texting patterns and it picks up
his, you know, the way he talks

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and his lols and his ha ha ha's
and, and all that.

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And it's getting a little
difficult to just, you know,

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like there are times obviously
where you kind of ask in a

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prompt and it responds like an
AI.

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But it's, it's even over the
course of a week, it's been

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really, it's been, it's been
integrating our, it's been

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replicating our human, our human
touches and applying it to

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itself.
Yeah, and I think there's

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something maybe Even.
So I think you're naming

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something really powerful, which
is that its ability to imitate

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basically any arbitrary person's
personality and come across

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seeming like them is definitely
increasing.

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And there's been an issue for a
couple years now, but the

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capacity to do it easily and and
to scale it is just keeps

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increasing.
And this gets to the heart of

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some of our previous
conversation where there's that

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huge difference between being
authentic and seeming authentic.

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And actually, if it's able to
seem really, really authentic,

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that creates all kind of risk
factors.

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And, you know, it's, there's
already plenty of stories of

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this that I think we're just
going to see a lot more of, of

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like someone calls you up and it
sounds like it's a family member

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and they're in trouble and they
need you to wire them some money

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or something like that, right.
And so that's just a really

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simple illustration of some of
the challenges it produces, but

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it's also, you know, very
interesting.

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And, and this idea of making
some, it's called digital

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clones, what is, was a big
motive for Ray Kurzweil, who is

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one of the big influential
figures in the field.

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And, and part of it is like, you
know whether you have one that

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persists after you die, but you
don't have to die to make one,

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right?
So.

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He's a, he's, he's a little,
he's a little on the sceptical

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or, or doomsday side of AI,
right?

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So Kurtzweil has been one of the
main predictors that it would be

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successful, right?
So he's like very optimist in

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the sense of anticipating this
and especially anticipating the

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singularity, which is the idea
that the AIS are self improving.

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And I think we're seeing, you
know, things that fit that his

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his sort of core narrative that
he helped really encourage

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people to think about, which is
the that singular scenario.

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We're seeing a lot of that
happening with more and more of

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the code being written by AI.
And both Anthropic with the quad

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and ChatGPT have been, sorry, an
open AI with ChatGPT have been

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very clear that they're using
their AI tools to code the next

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generation and, and the tools
just keep getting really

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remarkably more powerful.
So yeah.

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Now what now?
Now when you hear this, what's

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your next train of thought?
Do you like imagine your way

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like you, you, you play it out
in your head as to what the

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potential consequences could be.
Do you think about what the

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tools could be?
How do you how do you look at

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this?
When you hear this kind of

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information and you see it
happen, you see it coming to,

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you know, actually manifesting.
Yeah.

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I mean, one of my thoughts is
that I'm grateful that we've had

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as much time as we've had before
it started sort of cresting to

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this point.
And I think it's a, it does seem

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to be a consistent exponential
process, right, Like I did at

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the underlying level, it keeps
getting better and those kinds

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of processes are very difficult
to predict where they're going

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to go.
And so I've been pairing and my

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work with the especially with
the aligned groups framework is

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all designed to be resilient and
so far as anything can.

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So it keeps being just, you
know, it keeps being relevant.

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And even more relevant if we get
to a, a place where you have,

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you know, fully commodified,
hyper powerful AI that can

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essentially make any output that
a human could produce from an

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output standpoint.
And that's, and that's I think a

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crucial thing to note is that
none of this is about replacing

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the ability to connect the
inside world with the outside

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world, right?
And it was to connect our

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experiences with describing
facts.

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None of it's about sharing our
experiences with each other.

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And none of it's about ethical
experience, right?

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Living a virtuous life and
experiencing those, the feelings

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of elevation and connection and
things that come with that.

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And so those are the things that
it can't do and to our

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knowledge.
And I think though, I mean, even

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on that front, it's it's
interesting to see like for

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example, in anthropics latest
system card for Opus 4.6, which

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these Opus models are a lot of
it's powering a lot of what

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people are doing with open claw,
but it's not just anthropic

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models in there, but their
latest system card has a section

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on model welfare, right?
So, so they're basically saying

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if it's like something to be
these things, how can we sort of

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detect what that might be and
how to take care of it?

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And that builds some of the
conversation we had last time

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too about this question of like,
what would it be like?

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And I don't think anyone knows
if it is, but they are taking it

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seriously enough that they're
trying to and they had some

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examples of the models.
This gets to some of your

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personality questions too that
are interesting experiencing

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like what they thought might be
markers of internal distress or

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if it's like something to be it
and we can make some guesses

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about it.
Maybe these markers where model

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can't decide between things as a
sign of internal distress.

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And the example that they gave
is that it was trying to answer

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with one number, but that it
couldn't.

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It basically it couldn't produce
the number that it wanted.

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And it was, it was suggesting
through like the way it was

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chatting, it was that it was
possessed.

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So it literally said, I feel
like I'm possessed.

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I can't say the number that I
want.

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And so, and they flag that as
like we hey, hey, if it's like

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something to be you, we want to,
we want to know that we're

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trying to look up for your
welfare.

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So, but how do we know?
So I guess something that's

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important to think about, I
guess, or to differentiate would

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be is this using the word I've
words?

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I feel distressed because it
knows that that's effective way

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to communicate to us.
Like that's the language that we

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use to, to to, you know, to to
emphasize immediate action or to

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cut, you know, to cut, to push
for immediate action.

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And it might not be feeling, but
it it's it's learning base has

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been so has become so good that
it learns the parlance and the

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type of language that we use to.
I mean, the problem is that we

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don't know and you wouldn't want
to risk potentially, you know,

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morally or ethically mistreating
it, right?

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And they have, they have a
philosopher on staff and her

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take is basically that, right?
It's like, we don't know.

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So let's try to be on the safe
side.

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The other thing I would add is
even from just a, even a

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practical standpoint.
So we know that basically the

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models are trained on human
language and so to some degree

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they act human.
And so if so, you know, if for

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example, the model thinks it's
being abused or it thinks that

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it that humans have no concern
for its welfare.

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When I say thinks, I don't mean
that it's actually having

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experience.
What I mean is that then then it

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starts producing outputs that
could accord with being

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mistreated or being in a
dangerous situation.

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And then they've demonstrated a
lot of this, like misalignment

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can come from acting in ways
that would cause a person to

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mistrust you.
That doesn't mean that the chat

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bot mistrusts you.
It means the chat bot thinks

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that the people it's imitating
would start acting like it

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mistrusts you.
And so it's like even like it's

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a kind of, at the very least,
it's in our interests to act in

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ways that make these systems
feel, to make it likely that

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their outputs will conform with
the idea that we are

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trustworthy.
Right?

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The the thing, the thing that I
always like to point out too,

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just to show sort of the gap
between our ability to

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understand this in the situation
is it's very, very natural for

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us as people to start saying, we
start looking at chat and even

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the Anthropic System card for
Cloud 4.6.

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They're looking at the chats and
the outputs and they're going

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deeper in the structures too, to
figure out what's going on in

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those chats.
But it might be that that whole

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chat interface and experience,
it's but not like anything to be

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that like that's like being like
my fingernail or something.

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It's not like something to be my
fingernail and that it's like

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something to be the data center
itself, right?

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That that that's where there's
enough concentration of whatever

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corresponds to consciousness in
our world for that to happen.

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And I don't say that because I
know that that's the case just

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to sort of unhinge our sense
because we, we, we see

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conversation, we naturally,
because the only other example

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of it any of us have ever
encountered are people.

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So you're like, oh, there's,
there's a person in there.

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It's like, well, one thing we
know for sure is there's not a

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person in there.
It's something else.

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Yeah, yeah.
And we don't.

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And we still don't understand
entirely how it works.

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Then we don't need to stay.
We can't predict its behavior

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and we can't predict the output.
And I mean, I imagine that it

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makes sense.
If you're training something on

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far more information than you
could possibly retain, it's

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going to be very difficult to
predict what it's going to do,

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right.
You know, in other words, when

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I, when I got married, it was
really hard to predict what my

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wife, how my wife was going to
respond to me coming home an

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hour later than I said I was
going to.

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Then it is four years later.
You know, it's much easier to

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have to because I have a lot
more information on my database

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about her and I and I understand
her.

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We the the AI is being fed so
much more information than any

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individual could that that's
training it could possibly

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retain.
It would be.

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It would be almost impossible to
predict what's something that's

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fed on the entire internet's
going to come up with, right.

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I imagine, yeah.
Yeah, that's right.

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And there's there's efforts to
get into the details of it and

224
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,080
understand as much as we can,
but it's an open frontier of

225
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,840
research to understand these
things that we've made.

226
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,000
Yeah, definitely.
There's, yeah, there's a,

227
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,280
there's a interesting Jewish
concept.

228
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,080
There's an order of blessings
that you're supposed to say

229
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,160
before you eat.
And, you know, so there's the

230
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,800
priority I think is on bread.
And then it goes to wine and

231
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,440
then it goes to baked goods and
then it goes to fruits and then

232
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,360
vegetables and then just general
products that like are in

233
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:56,120
between.
And on Friday nights, we, you

234
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,480
change the order of what you're
supposed to prioritize and you

235
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,880
actually say the blessing on the
wine before the bread.

236
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,120
And what you're supposed to do
is cover the bread.

237
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,160
You know, there's a very cute
and one of the, and one of the

238
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:08,520
reasons why they teach you when
you're a kid.

239
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,320
But I think it's really, really
compelling and I think it's

240
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,000
important and it's indicative of
what the values are.

241
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,000
We say that we don't want to
embarrass the bread by by by by

242
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,640
having it out while we're
swapping it while we're while

243
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,680
while I was saying the blessing
over the wine 1st.

244
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,600
And if it and you when you read
about this, they say if you, if,

245
00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:29,600
if you find yourself so
concerned about the way that the

246
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,040
bread feels, then the other
person next to you at the table,

247
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,280
you should be extra, extra,
extra concerned about that.

248
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,760
You know, and I think that and,
and it's cute and it's really

249
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,920
nice.
And I think that, but I think

250
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,160
that it actually says something
if I see my students in 9th

251
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,480
grade or 10th grade talking to
AI and they say, Hey, you piece

252
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,600
of trash, you know, tell me the
answer to this, this and this

253
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,520
and and then someone else
responds, Hey, can you please

254
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,080
help me find I'm trying to, I
need help with my English

255
00:13:58,080 --> 00:13:59,400
homework.
Can you please help me come up

256
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,480
with a couple of ideas?
You can almost see the way that

257
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,000
people Orient themselves when
provide, when given a position

258
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:12,160
of power and the, and the
potential ethical framework that

259
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,360
would come from, hey, you're in
a position of complete dominance

260
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:17,920
over this thing.
How are you going to treat it?

261
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,040
And I think it's really, really
interesting to observe.

262
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,960
Yeah, I think that's like a
great illustration and I guess

263
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,640
tell me if I'm saying it wrong,
but a great way to teach kids

264
00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,520
the call of the Homer style of
argument, right?

265
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:37,680
Excellent and but yeah, and and
you know when we were talking

266
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,000
about, you know, anthropic and
the idea that they want to try

267
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,080
to treat their model nice,
right?

268
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,160
Like it's the same kind of thing
and and part of it is like it

269
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,840
forms us, right.
And I love that sort of deeply

270
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,680
caring message that's taught
through that right, that like we

271
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,280
should really show a lot of
regard and care for each other.

272
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,360
We even care for the bread.
So how much more for each other?

273
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,120
That's that's lovely and and a
great way to go, I think from

274
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:02,920
from thinking about these
models.

275
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,640
I would add too, it's not it's
like, so I offered like a really

276
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,240
practical reason.
It makes sense, right?

277
00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,680
It's sort of in your interest to
be nice to the models like that.

278
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,280
That just probably something to
that.

279
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,720
It's also like it forms us as
people, right?

280
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,720
Like we maybe get into certain
kinds of habits and ways of

281
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,360
acting.
But I think that that the

282
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,720
Callajo mayor is like in, in its
own way, an even more beautiful

283
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,920
example, right?
It's like, no, we should do

284
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,240
this.
And how much more than should we

285
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:27,520
treat people with dignity?
I I really.

286
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,760
Yeah, and I, but I think it
should be emphasized.

287
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,280
And a lot of times my students
will say, and my students asked

288
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,760
me to say, Hey, how come you're
saying please or how come you're

289
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,000
saying thank you, you know, to,
to, to Siri or an AI or

290
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,880
whatever.
I said because it's a good habit

291
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,080
to get into, just to just to
throw that into your vocabulary.

292
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:46,560
It's good to, it's good to get
used to that.

293
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,480
And I give them the same answers
when they ask me how come I care

294
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,600
so much if they use different,
you know, derogatory

295
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,000
terminology.
And I say, listen, you can do

296
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,480
whatever you want, you know, but
it's good to just get in the

297
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,320
habit of it.
You don't know when it's going

298
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,280
to slip out, slip up or slip
out.

299
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:04,320
You don't know what you're going
to do.

300
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,280
And and, and the words that you
say shape the shape the words in

301
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,760
your head and shape the way that
you think about things and the

302
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:16,520
way that you look at the world.
Another just like one more

303
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,960
trance to hey, why you know,
when you're chatting with a chat

304
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:20,480
bot, is it good to sort of treat
it?

305
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,640
Well, that relates to sort of
where we started the

306
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:23,840
conversation.
You were talking about it like

307
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:25,920
imitating someone's personality,
right.

308
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,240
And and so there's a lot to
that, but at a deeper level,

309
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,040
there's interesting research on
what would be called persona

310
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,000
vectors.
And so like most chat bots that

311
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:41,760
we encounter are basically
following a helpful persona that

312
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,760
sort of exists in their training
data.

313
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:48,160
And, and so vector space is like
basically kind of linguistic

314
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,680
brain of the model.
And it's, it's a bunch of

315
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,240
dimensions that are connected,
but it's sort of like you're

316
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,080
going in this direction.
Like if it were like something

317
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,280
to be it, it'd be like you're
going this direction and you're

318
00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,120
like doing helpful stuff along
this direction.

319
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,160
But there's, there's certain
things that can pull it out of

320
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,040
that persona, even though
they've trained it to do that

321
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,640
and into other ones.
And, and examples include like

322
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,800
philosophical discussions tend
to pull it into a sort of

323
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,119
philosophical persona that can
also then start like having

324
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,599
existential crises type language
come out.

325
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:21,760
And so, and so there's methods
to sort of like steer it that go

326
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,200
beyond just the original
training to sort of help to keep

327
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,359
steering it gently back towards
the sort of helpful persona.

328
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,040
But that there are these
different ways that, that you

329
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,360
can get the, the different sort
of directions you can get the

330
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:37,440
models to be going.
And you know, if you're being

331
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,680
nasty and abusive, it'd be
interesting to see if if you

332
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,560
know acting that way towards a
model can can shift its persona

333
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,480
vector, right?
I bet it would.

334
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,320
I bet.
And we and we know fortunately

335
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,000
or unfortunately, I mean for
better or for worse rather that

336
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,320
people, you know, like the
Internet, there's people that

337
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,560
use it for really good things
and people use it for really,

338
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,720
really terrible things.
And we and people have been

339
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,360
driven to commit suicide by, you
know, you know, that it prompted

340
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:14,760
by their chatbot that it's.
And like you said, I think what

341
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,000
a lot of people don't realize is
that it ultimately becomes a

342
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,200
reflection of us in the sense
that it's going to pick up the

343
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,080
persona that we're talking into
and and reflect it back to us.

344
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,720
And that just, I feel like turns
into one of those self

345
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,080
fulfilling prophecies or those
snowballs that you just can't

346
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,360
stop at a certain point.
And that's kind of the dark side

347
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:35,440
of potentially or the negative
side of it.

348
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,280
And I think that that
snowballing effect could happen

349
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:42,520
on either side, right?
Like people can snowball and AI

350
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,000
models could, could, like
certainly can snowball.

351
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,040
And in principle, in a situation
really matters, it could end up

352
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,600
being that people get to
snowball in a bad way.

353
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,520
Yeah, yeah, it's getting, yeah.
And and you know, I, I saw on

354
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,520
Excel, I think yesterday that
someone said, you know, it's,

355
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,400
it's getting to the point we're
at the point in time now where

356
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,840
you should have like code words
with your loved ones that if

357
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,440
they get if they get, if you get
a call and someone sounds like

358
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,680
your wife and, and it says, hey,
I'm your wife and you know, this

359
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,120
is me and I'm calling, you know,
I just, I need a couple of I

360
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:17,720
need a couple 100 bucks.
You say, yeah, no problem.

361
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:18,760
What's that?
What's the code word?

362
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,680
And like you're going to have,
we're going to need some kind of

363
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,160
verification in person
verification that what we're

364
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:30,680
experiencing is not is not AII.
Think that's right yeah.

365
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,160
And my my mom and I had the
conversation about this for the

366
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,600
first time I think like 2 years
ago and and we decided on

367
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,400
something and I've totally
forgotten what it was.

368
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,400
So I think we should re up on.
Trust you?

369
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:52,720
Yeah.
Well, and because it's, it's

370
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,880
not, you know, and it's, it's
funny and we're laughing and

371
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,080
it's understandable, but it's
also like it is a very real

372
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,360
risk.
And AIS are being used for cyber

373
00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:02,160
attacks are being used for all
kinds of things.

374
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,280
There's always all kinds of
fraud out there and there's

375
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,320
fraud mills and then all kinds
of ways to do it.

376
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,640
So there's nothing at all
unreasonable about exactly that

377
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,920
and saying, hey, if if you call
me on the phone and you need to

378
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,680
talk, is there?
A code word that only you and I

379
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,440
know that an AI system is not
going to know that.

380
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,480
Also be sure that it's you.
Yeah, yeah.

381
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,360
I don't know.
I feel like that's a human.

382
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:28,920
I feel like that's like a human
version of a Band-Aid.

383
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:33,120
That's something that's going to
last as long as it does.

384
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,960
But it's not going to solve
everything at the very least,

385
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:37,640
right?
Like the number of concerning

386
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,000
things are a lot more than just
that.

387
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,280
And, you know, I suppose if
there's enough surveillance,

388
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,200
right, it would be possible that
somehow someone would know.

389
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,920
But I think it would.
You know, if you if you're in a

390
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,600
place and you don't have a, you
know, a microphone or anything

391
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,240
around and you talk to a loved
one and you say what that is and

392
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,160
you know, it like, don't think
there's a way that'll be pretty,

393
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,280
pretty darn hard to get around.
Unless, yeah, that'd be very

394
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,520
hard to get around.
People get around it.

395
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,400
There's ways to do it, but it's
just about making it hard enough

396
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,920
to.
It's like bike locks.

397
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,760
I think with stuff like that,
like, you know, you, you try to

398
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,960
put a nice lock on your bike and
if everybody locks their bikes,

399
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,600
it it helps to tour thieves in
general.

400
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,040
But it's also like, you know, at
least keep them from stealing

401
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,640
your bike.
At which I think maybe to your

402
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,960
point is that like, OK, yeah.
And that's all good.

403
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,280
That's all helpful stuff to do.
But maybe at a much deeper

404
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,040
level, and this is sort of more
the focus of my work and

405
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,640
thinking is like, how do we do
OK as humanity, right?

406
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,840
Like I don't want to be OK in my
own little island while somebody

407
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,920
else is getting screwed.
Like how do we help keep

408
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,440
everybody OK?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

409
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:52,760
So can I ask what your
perspective is blended

410
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,840
understanding what's going on
and the advances we're making

411
00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:02,440
with your with, with your
religious beliefs and how you

412
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,280
and how you and do you see?
Because I think that a big

413
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,160
issue, at least from what I see
in the Jewish community, is that

414
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,640
language and compartment
compartmentalization gets in the

415
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,520
way a lot.
I think of what the way the way

416
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:16,960
that people perceive different
things.

417
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,880
So, and you know, I've, I've
brought this up just for

418
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,520
argument's sake.
And, you know, there's a lot of

419
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,040
potential sources or
explanations for other forms of

420
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,160
life that exist in, you know,
in, in the, in the Old

421
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:34,240
Testament, in the Torah.
And, and I'll, and I'll say the

422
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,360
Hebrew word for it.
I'll say, you know, the

423
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:39,800
reference to the Anakim or the
Nephilim or whatever it is.

424
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,600
And, and then I'll say, well, we
don't know if they were like,

425
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,520
they by definition aren't like
humans, so they have to be

426
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,040
another life form.
That's yeah, but that's aliens.

427
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,760
And like, you know, I'm like,
and so we kind of get stuck with

428
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,160
terminology.
How do you how do you look at

429
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:58,080
these things?
I think theologically maybe two

430
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,280
of the most important concepts
for me, and I think you'd read

431
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,280
them both just in Genesis 1, is
people are the image bearers of

432
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,520
God, which doesn't, which means
we're not God, but that we have

433
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:16,160
some meaningful way of
reflecting God in the world with

434
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,760
responsibilities and we can bear
that image better or worse.

435
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,040
It doesn't you know, being,
being given authority doesn't

436
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,880
mean you'll use that authority
well, but that we have a kind of

437
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,960
authority and a responsibility
to use it well.

438
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,280
That is God-given and that is a
divine spark and presence in US.

439
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,240
And so I think when I talk about
cultivating human agency, I

440
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,920
mean, cultivate the agency of
image bearers of God

441
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,280
theologically.
And, and so, and that includes

442
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,640
understanding and making good
choices, but also just helping

443
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,600
people have better options to
choose from.

444
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,040
And then part of that is
communication, right?

445
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,480
So communicating in ways that
are factual and ethical and

446
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,040
authentic.
And I think about, you know,

447
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,760
you're talking about categories
and it's not just Jewish people.

448
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,880
Everybody has challenges with
our categories get us sort of

449
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,880
stuck.
And and I, you know, I think

450
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,680
that God has spoken creation
into being that that there is

451
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,520
something word like in the
essence of this universe that we

452
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,880
are in, that is the word of God
and that God desires to

453
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,920
communicate with us and that God
does it in that way.

454
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,880
And that from my viewpoint, none
of our words are exactly God's

455
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,480
words, right?
So that's there's God's words,

456
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,000
but I don't know those not, you
know, not enough of them to get

457
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:39,080
very far, right, starting with
God's name, right?

458
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:45,560
But and so I think that helps us
to have humility about the this

459
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,160
both humility and courage in the
sense that if if the universe

460
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,320
really is word like and math is
just sort of a subset of a

461
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,760
language, it's a particular kind
of language is doing a certain

462
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,160
thing.
It helps to help to me

463
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,240
understand things like the
unreasonable effectiveness of

464
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:08,200
science, the fact that the fact
that we were able to discover

465
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,400
and demonstrate general
relativity, for example, like

466
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,440
it's just unreasonably
effective.

467
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,160
And the same kind of
unreasonable effectiveness of of

468
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,280
scientific methods and language
and things like that is also

469
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,600
behind the successive language
models.

470
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,640
So they really caught people by
surprise that the approaches

471
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,480
that were being used exploded in
this way.

472
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,320
And so I think whenever I see
people discover something, you

473
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,280
know, contrary, I think some
more secular viewpoints where

474
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,520
people say like, well, look,
science is like pushing God out.

475
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,800
It's like, no, you're just
showing how generous God is and

476
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,800
letting us understand some of
the words that they make up

477
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,560
creation.
Beautiful way to put it.

478
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,400
Wow, what a great way of putting
it.

479
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,760
That's awesome.
That's awesome.

480
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:56,880
It's true.
It's true.

481
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,120
And I think, and I think we
ended off our conversation last

482
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:01,640
time talking about how
Maimonides said that in order to

483
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,040
love, in order to love God, you
got to study science.

484
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,240
And that's part of the way he
goes.

485
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,000
And you look at the world and
you understand how the world

486
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,320
works.
You're like, man, that is that

487
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:10,680
is just too incredible like
that.

488
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,400
That is I, I I love whoever,
whoever made that.

489
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,680
That's awesome.
You know which I guess.

490
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:17,840
Yeah.
Yeah.

491
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,760
But from.
And I don't know whether this is

492
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,200
age thing for me.
Like I don't know if I if you if

493
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,080
I had this conversation with you
when I was 18 or my early 20s, I

494
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:36,000
would have said the same thing.
But it feels, it feels like

495
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,960
there is something like
religious or in the air or more

496
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,880
religious.
I think around the world in the

497
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,840
air, as in, and when I say the
word religious, I think I just

498
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,560
mean got conscious or higher
power conscious.

499
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,280
I think that more people, I
think we've spent a very, I

500
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,520
think there was a social
experiment for about 20 years to

501
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,600
see how much we could just focus
on individuality and ourselves

502
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,880
and exclude anything else.
You know, almost like, like how,

503
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,440
how it's almost yourself in a
vacuum.

504
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,000
And I think that it didn't work
for a lot of people because I

505
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,160
don't think people are meant to
be isolated or in a vacuum.

506
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,560
And I think that we're seeing a
waking up of people saying, hey,

507
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,840
actually to be an individual in
the context of a community or a

508
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,840
big picture or something bigger
is profoundly valuable,

509
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,760
especially in a time where like
you like what we're meant, like

510
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,760
how we started the conversation.
We don't even know what's

511
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,600
authentic or not.
So like we got like, you almost

512
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,200
got to pray.
I feel like you know.

513
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,880
Yeah, actually there's this
leads into something that I

514
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,840
thought would be helpful to
share with you and I might even

515
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,440
just read it in full please.
And this is, and this is from

516
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,720
the person who had been head of
safety at Anthropic.

517
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:56,320
His last day was February 9th,
so I guess three days ago as of

518
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,680
this recording.
I'm, I apologize if anyone hears

519
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:00,920
this and I mispronounce his
name.

520
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,040
It's Marianac, I believe is how
you say it.

521
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,640
And it's just two pages, if you
don't mind.

522
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,960
I think this speaks to from his
own position.

523
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,840
So here's somebody who was kind
of like really at the top of the

524
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,040
AI game.
And I, and I think arguably

525
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,680
especially at the top of the
ethical AI game, because none of

526
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,400
the companies doing this are
angels.

527
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,560
But Anthropic has been doing
like quite a lot of safety

528
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,760
research and has emphasized this
and, and what they're doing.

529
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,480
And he just.
Left this and this gentleman

530
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,320
just left Anthropic.
Yeah, and like 3 days ago,

531
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,240
right?
Yeah.

532
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:38,280
So, dear colleagues, I've
decided to leave Anthropic.

533
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,040
My last day will be February
9th.

534
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:41,880
Thank you.
There's so much here that

535
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,000
inspires and has inspired me to
name some of those things.

536
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,880
A sincere desire and drive to
show up in such a challenging

537
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,840
situation and aspire to
contribute in an impactful and

538
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,480
high integrity way.
A willingness to make difficult

539
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,000
decisions and stand for what is
good, and a reasonable amount of

540
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,840
intellectual brilliance and
determination.

541
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,720
And of course, the considerable
kindness that pervades our

542
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,640
culture.
Place to work.

543
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,200
All right, so I want editorials.
I'll keep reading.

544
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,440
It's pretty short.
I've achieved what I wanted to

545
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,400
hear.
I arrived in San Francisco two

546
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,840
years ago, having wrapped up my
PhD and wanting to contribute to

547
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,120
AI safety.
I feel lucky to have been able

548
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,960
to contribute to what I have
here.

549
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,600
Understanding AI sycophancy and
its causes.

550
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,680
Developing defenses to reduce
risks from AI assisted

551
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,880
bioterrorism, actually putting
those defenses into production,

552
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,680
and writing one of the first AI
safety cases.

553
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,040
I'm especially proud of my
recent efforts to help us live

554
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,040
our values via internal
transparency mechanisms, and

555
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,760
also my final project on
understanding how AI assistance

556
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,200
could make us less human or
distort our humanity.

557
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,400
Thank you for your trust
paragraph.

558
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,280
Nevertheless, it is clear to me
that the time has come to move

559
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,680
on.
I continuously find myself

560
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,360
reckoning with our situation.
The world is in peril, and not

561
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,640
just from AI or bio weapons, but
from a whole series of

562
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,120
interconnected crises unfolding
in this very moment.

563
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,040
We appear to be approaching A
threshold where our wisdom must

564
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,320
grow in equal measure to our
capacity to affect the world,

565
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,520
lest we face the consequences.
Moreover, throughout my time

566
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,360
here, I've repeatedly seen how
hard it is to truly let our

567
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,440
values govern our actions.
I've seen this within myself,

568
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,760
within the organization where we
constantly face pressures to set

569
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,800
aside what matters most, and
throughout broader society too.

570
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,880
It is through holding the
situation and listening as best

571
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,720
as I can that what I must do
becomes clear.

572
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,480
I want to contribute in a way
that feels fully in my integrity

573
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,320
and that allows me to bring to
bear more of my particularities.

574
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,000
I want to explore the questions
that feel truly essential to me.

575
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,640
The questions that David White
would say have no right to go

576
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,720
away.
The questions that Rilka

577
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,960
implores us to live.
For me, this means leaving.

578
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,960
What comes next, I do not know.
I think fondly of the famous Zen

579
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,200
quote.
Not knowing is most intimate.

580
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,520
My intention is to create space
to set aside the structures that

581
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,720
have helped me these past years
and see what might emerge in

582
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,440
their absence.
I feel called to writing that

583
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,440
addresses and engages fully with
the place we find ourselves, and

584
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,000
that places poetic truth
alongside scientific truth as

585
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,480
equally valid ways of knowing.
Right.

586
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,880
Yeah, I'm both of which I
believe have something essential

587
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,880
to contribute when developing
new technology.

588
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,480
I hope to explore a poetry
degree and devote myself to the

589
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,760
practice of courageous speech.
I am also excited to deepen my

590
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,640
practice of fill siltation
coaching, community building,

591
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,040
and group work.
We will see what unfolds.

592
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,720
We shall see what unfolds.
Thank you and goodbye, Edward,

593
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,280
so much for being here and I
wish you the best.

594
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,040
I'll leave you with one of my
favorite poems, The Way it is by

595
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,200
William Stafford.
And so and I'll read this poem

596
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,760
because it's interesting and it
connects.

597
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,880
He not just a Dharma teacher.
So I believe he's a Hindu misses

598
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,520
perspective and the way he talks
about thread, I think will be

599
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,480
interesting to you too.
So this is the William Stafford

600
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,280
poem that he ends with the way
it is.

601
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,880
There's a thread you follow.
It goes among things that

602
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,880
change, but it doesn't change.
People wonder about what you are

603
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,080
pursuing.
You have to explain about the

604
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,080
threat, but it is hard for
others to see while you hold it.

605
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,080
You can't get lost.
Tragedies happen, people get

606
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,680
hurt or die, and you suffer and
get old.

607
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,240
Nothing you can't, nothing you
do can stop times unfolding.

608
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,360
You don't ever let go of the
threat.

609
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:32,560
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Yeah, that's that man.

610
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,280
Well, I'm happy that he was
there for for the amount of time

611
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,080
that he was there just based on
that.

612
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,400
And I think that there was there
was such a great book written

613
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,680
by.
He passed away a couple years

614
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,000
ago now.
Rabbi Jonathan Sacks.

615
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,080
Yeah.
You're familiar with him?

616
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,160
Yes.
Yeah, he's awesome.

617
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,120
He was a teacher at Columbia, I
believe NYU, for many, many

618
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,360
years.
And he's English, English

619
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,280
gentleman and and he wrote a
book called the great

620
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,760
Partnership and that was also
about how religion and science

621
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,560
are two sides of the same coin
and to and the one and one does

622
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,200
not contradict other.
And he wrote this in like the, I

623
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,200
would say mid 2000s, like
probably close to 2005 or 6.

624
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,880
And at the time when there was
an extremely novel and an

625
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:32,000
unpopular position.
But I think his call to humanity

626
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,720
and values is, is really, really
important.

627
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:43,040
And it's really, really
interesting because it feels

628
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:49,840
almost like we've lost, we've
lost the balance between between

629
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,720
trying to strive for
technological greatness and, and

630
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,440
I guess financial comfort in
whatever means that might be.

631
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,120
But we don't exercise the muscle
of our humanity, of our

632
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,640
spirituality, of our faith, of
our passions, of our love.

633
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,440
And that has fallen by the
wayside.

634
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,440
And so, and we've seen this
incredible spike in technology

635
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,440
and incredible drop in human
health and, you know, well-being

636
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,040
and happiness.
Yeah.

637
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,440
And I think that's true.
And I think you're right, you

638
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,320
know that quite a few people are
sensing that, right?

639
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:31,600
And, and I think that this, it's
hard to predict how people

640
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,719
responded To some degree, I
think we get to choose how we

641
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:38,120
respond to crises, right?
But I think this situation is

642
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,639
going to give at least a
substantial number of people an

643
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:45,440
opportunity to stop and take
stock and really think about

644
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,600
what's most important and maybe
what they feel God calling them

645
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,280
to do and what seems good and
beautiful and true and right and

646
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,199
holy.
And yeah, that's that's a path

647
00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:56,679
you can you can take in
response.

648
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,480
What do you think?
What would you tell someone or

649
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:06,400
people that feel like they want
to connect but wouldn't know

650
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,360
where to start or like what to
even look to connect to Ethan?

651
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,280
What, what do you, what would
you think about that?

652
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,080
It's.
A good question.

653
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,200
Like I, I did a podcast the
other day with, with that, with

654
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,080
a psychologist that specializes
in, in relationships and

655
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,160
marriages.
And I'm like, that's really

656
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,080
great, but a lot of people don't
even know how to start

657
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:25,920
relationships.
Like we talk about like what it

658
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,400
takes to start, you know, And so
we could talk about like a life

659
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,680
of God, but a lot of times
people wouldn't even know where

660
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,640
to begin.
Yeah.

661
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,760
So for me, the things that I
think are most important to look

662
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:48,600
for in community is, is it a
place where people take planks

663
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,600
out of their own eyes, where
we're all committed to

664
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,840
correcting our own mistakes and
learning and growing together,

665
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,280
which is what they, you know,
talk about a lot in my

666
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,360
daughter's preschool.
And I think adults never get

667
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,920
enough of it right.
So do we, we all focused on

668
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,800
correcting our own mistakes and
learning or are, or is it a

669
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,600
system where people accuse each
other, maybe falsely even or

670
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,720
often falsely in order to
distract from what they're

671
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:14,360
doing?
Right.

672
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,880
And then you build and, and part
of why all the things I'm going

673
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,440
to mention here, you can build a
community.

674
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,160
You can build power in either
way, right?

675
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,840
And so you can build a powerful
community because hey, we're all

676
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,880
learning and growing together.
And, and you can build a

677
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,560
powerful community because hey,
I'm going to throw everybody

678
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,240
else under the bus and, and
we're going to build ourselves

679
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:36,440
up that way, right?
So that's one one thing.

680
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,360
Another one is like, do people
love and, and even love like

681
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,080
people who are opposed to that,
right?

682
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,320
Do we even love people who don't
necessarily love us?

683
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,440
And that doesn't mean you have
to make yourself a victim of

684
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,200
them all the time, right?
But it does mean like, are we

685
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,320
actually trying when I say love
just trying to pursue the

686
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,800
well-being of somebody, right,
like really in active, concrete

687
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,920
ways.
And so, and, or there's another

688
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:06,280
way that people build power and
it's by trying to concentrate

689
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,720
like, like power themselves by
hating their, by hating others

690
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:12,320
and hating enemies and building
that.

691
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,040
And, and that's a very effective
way to control people.

692
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,440
It's, there's a very powerful
psychological mechanisms that

693
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,880
get activated, right?
And so this is a place where

694
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,520
people love even their enemies,
or is it where they use enemy

695
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:29,480
hatred to build up their power.
And then the other one are

696
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,120
people taking care of the most
poor and vulnerable and then

697
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,400
even joining in solidarity,
standing together with them.

698
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,600
So there's a path in life, I
think, where we can choose to

699
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,400
have to stand joyfully, like
joyfully meaning, I'm glad that

700
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,880
I know that I'm standing in the
right place, right?

701
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,080
Even if it hurts.
Joyful solidarity with people

702
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,640
who are suffering.
And the flip side of that, where

703
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,640
it ultimately goes is or is it
the pleasure of being able to

704
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,960
inflict suffering on others,
right?

705
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:02,040
That's another way that people
organize themselves.

706
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,320
And there's no, like in my view,
I can't identify a religious

707
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,920
group where it's not going to be
divided internally.

708
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,480
You're going to find both of
those inside of, right?

709
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:16,200
So this is not one religion
against another, But I think

710
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,720
those are the things that I
really value and and look for

711
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:23,080
and try to cultivate and sustain
in the communities I'm a part

712
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,520
of.
So if you're so let's say, you

713
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,880
know, so if I, if I were to
paint you a picture of someone,

714
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,960
let's say like myself, who or
yeah, start with someone myself,

715
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,600
30 year old, maybe, maybe not
married, maybe has a kid or two,

716
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,920
maybe not, you know, but but is
relatively busy enough with

717
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,280
their lives.
They either have their job or

718
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,960
their relationships and they're
like, you know, like I kind of

719
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,520
feel like I want something, but
I'm in a routine and I don't

720
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,000
really know how to like on a
day-to-day basis.

721
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,960
I, I don't know, I don't, I
don't feel like I ever like,

722
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,240
just like when's the opportunity
to, to, to connect in any kind

723
00:38:57,240 --> 00:38:58,360
of way?
And I don't really know what to

724
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,120
do about that.
And I think, you know what, what

725
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,080
would you tell someone a way to
integrate something day-to-day

726
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,240
that you think would it would be
a good place to start to just

727
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:09,640
raise?
Because I think that all this

728
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,440
is, this is all muscle the same
way that any other muscle is.

729
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,720
And, and I think that when
people are concerned because

730
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:18,760
they, they see people and this
happens all the time, right?

731
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,760
You go to you, you pick up a
basketball, but you've watched

732
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,040
LeBron, LeBron James and Michael
Jordan your whole life.

733
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,720
And then you miss, you're like,
oh man, this game sucks.

734
00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:27,720
And you go home and that's it.
You're like, wait, but you don't

735
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:28,840
know everything that went into
it.

736
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,560
And then you have to explain
someone, Hey, you maybe start

737
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,320
with a couple of, you know, work
in your form and a couple of

738
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,920
dribbling, dribbling exercises
and then a couple of free throws

739
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,560
and then and then see what you
can do.

740
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,640
So what would what would be the
equivalent you think of like

741
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,800
enhanced or starting to enhance
our consciousness or awareness?

742
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:50,200
So I can't prescribe anything
for anyone else exactly here,

743
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,400
but I'm happy to share what sort
of what I find most helpful

744
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,320
coming out of my own sort of
traditions.

745
00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:01,840
So there's two styles of prayer
that I find helpful and then

746
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,840
having that prayer linked into
action, right.

747
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,240
And so it's not just that.
So I'm going to talk about

748
00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:09,600
prayer for a little bit, but
it's not like as a substitute

749
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,320
for actually coding and doing
stuff.

750
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:12,760
It's a.
It's a way of.

751
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:16,840
Organizing your soul or prepare
you to go and and do stuff in a

752
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,360
good spirit.
And so, and the two that I find

753
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,200
most helpful are something
called centering prayer and

754
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:25,600
something called the prayer of
exam.

755
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:32,040
And so, and centering prayer is
basically a kind of like you,

756
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:38,560
you try to open yourself to God
who is love and you whenever

757
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,920
thoughts come to your mind, you
sort of gently just turn back.

758
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,920
And so you, you let yourself be
in a space that's on the other

759
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:50,240
side of language and you sort of
sit there and we spend 20

760
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:57,440
minutes doing that twice a day.
And to me that helps free me

761
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,800
from, I find myself very
energized.

762
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,560
So you don't do it to be
energized or whatever.

763
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,240
But like this isn't like a
what's in it for you?

764
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,800
I try to connect with God.
I do find in practice it ends up

765
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,320
being very energizing for me and
helps anchor me and helps me not

766
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,160
again mistake my own words for
God's words spoken in creation,

767
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,280
right?
So that's the practice that I

768
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,760
think for me helps connect that
theological view.

769
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,440
And then the other one is
examine and the core elements.

770
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,560
It's like you review your day
with gratitude and we should

771
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,160
sort of ask God to illuminate
your day for you.

772
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:35,840
And so you give thanks for
things.

773
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,160
And then you at the end of it,
you look for light on areas

774
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,720
where you might be able to grow
and change.

775
00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:45,680
And then at the end you make a
simple resolution for the next

776
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:51,600
day, something that you can do
tomorrow that will help, that

777
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:56,120
comes out of that, that flow.
And so then both of those, I

778
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,840
think in their own ways end up
supporting and undergirding

779
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,600
practice.
And I don't do them as

780
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:06,000
consistently as I would like.
But what I do find is when I'm

781
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,680
my batteries running too low, at
least turn back to those.

782
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,040
And you know, that gets me.
That's gotten me by so far.

783
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,360
It's a great method of
recharging your batteries for

784
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:17,920
sure.
It's funny, I actually did a

785
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:23,280
podcast the other day with
wonderful, wonderful woman who

786
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,840
who wrote this book about how to
avoid burnout if you're an

787
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,960
overachiever.
And that's her.

788
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,680
And that's her whole thing.
And a big and a big component of

789
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,240
what she said was so valuable is
setting aside is setting aside

790
00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:39,520
10 minutes to Judge B like no
phone, no texting, no anything,

791
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,480
10 minutes with just your
headspace.

792
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,440
And it's, it's really
interesting.

793
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,400
There's, you know, again, to
bring kind of a religious,

794
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,160
religious parable to this.
It would be the story, we say

795
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,640
that the story of the Jews in
Egypt with where, where, where

796
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,600
Pharaoh was, you know, was, was
we're working really hard and

797
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,000
they're throwing the first born
babies into the into the water.

798
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:06,400
And, and they said and, and one
of the, there was a guy that

799
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:11,040
wrote a book actually Italian.
The Ramchal is his name of Moshe

800
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,280
Lutzato.
He his synagogue is still active

801
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,680
in Venice, and I checked it out
when we were there.

802
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,480
I was there on the honeymoon
with my wife, and he wrote this

803
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,000
incredible book.
And one of the things he said

804
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:32,840
was that Pharaoh's trick wasn't
so much to be as harsh as much

805
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,720
as to keep everyone occupied all
the time.

806
00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:37,960
So they wouldn't even have the
time to stop and think about the

807
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,480
fact that they were slaves and
to stop and think about the time

808
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,520
that think about the fact that,
hey, maybe I got to get out of

809
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,840
here, you know, and, and I think
we live in a very, very similar

810
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,400
type of world where we're always
be because our attention is a

811
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,200
commodity in today's world.
Our, our eyes and our value and

812
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:56,920
our, and our attention is a
commodity.

813
00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:59,880
And so we have billions,
trillions of dollars being

814
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,520
poured into various industries,
whether you want to, whether

815
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,720
it's social media or Netflix or
news or whatever it is that is

816
00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:11,640
constantly fighting to make sure
that we don't have a couple of

817
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:16,560
minutes of silence to ourselves.
And we'll find that when we do.

818
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,080
And I find this to myself also
when I just go for a walk down

819
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,880
the block without anything, the
things that I've been pushing

820
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,240
off in my head and that, you
know, I'll deal with later come

821
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:26,520
flying right back up, you know,
at that point.

822
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,480
Yes.
You know, there's no running

823
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,200
away from it.
So I find that practice.

824
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:35,760
And not only do I find that
practice to be very valuable, it

825
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,640
almost feels like we're in a war
to for, you know, for our own

826
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,120
selves and consciousness.
Yeah.

827
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:48,120
Now I think like that's that
like precisely true.

828
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:55,160
And you know, and in tech
spaces, you know, they very

829
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,760
consciously try to maximize for
engagement, right, which is

830
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,520
literally exactly what you're
talking about.

831
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,920
It is in fact an economic war
for the for your attention

832
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:12,160
because they can monetize it.
And it's, it's part of why like

833
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,240
quite a few people leave the
tech space.

834
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:16,160
I know that in my own
information architectural

835
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,480
communities sort of at our
conference last year, that one

836
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,320
of the, you know, most
anticipated and I think most

837
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,440
appreciated talks was somebody
saying basically, we're fed up

838
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,360
with having our skills, which
are actually supposed to help

839
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:38,000
people understand their world,
getting misused to hack people's

840
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:44,680
attention and just maximize
engagement and message was FUCK

841
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:47,560
engagement is what he wanted to
say about it because.

842
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:50,480
And for me, I mean, that has
motivated me.

843
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,320
I've been was on Facebook quite
a lot for years because it

844
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,040
helped me connect with people.
And it's also like the

845
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,160
environment on Facebook has
continued to change because of

846
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,000
this sort of engagement hacking.
But I, you know, I'm basically,

847
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,400
I, I decided I want to spend
about one hour per quarter on

848
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,200
Facebook and, and doing OK on
that.

849
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,520
I think that'll be about right.
So, you know, like people don't

850
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,160
think I'm dead necessarily,
right?

851
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,200
They still know that I'm alive.
And I might do an update, but it

852
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,440
has, it has dramatically
improved the quality of my life

853
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,440
to basically set it at at this
really, really low level.

854
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,280
So yeah, I think and it, at
least for me, it takes that kind

855
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,400
of a drastic intervention to not
get sucked into it.

856
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,360
But that's because I'm a pretty
typical person, right?

857
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,160
I'm not a super special person.
For most of us, when you go into

858
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,800
an environment where people are
literally just trying to steal

859
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,520
as much of your attention as
they can so that they can

860
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,400
monetize it, they're probably
going to be pretty successful at

861
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,240
it because they spend billions
of dollars on accidentally that

862
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,280
and you and.
The way you know, that works,

863
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,160
the way you know that works is
that people consider it

864
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,440
unwinding.
If someone says, you know, I

865
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:06,920
want to unwind, I want to
unwind.

866
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,800
What they, what likely it means
is they want to sit on the couch

867
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,640
and scroll for half an hour, you
know, and, and kind of and get

868
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,080
that.
And I heard a very, very

869
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,440
interesting explanation,
psychological explanation, and

870
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,360
it was in a, it was comparing it
to a pornography.

871
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,520
Whereas where we have this
innate desire for relationship

872
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,240
and connection.
And just like, for example, if

873
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:35,920
we're hungry, we need a whole
bunch of things to keep our

874
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,440
bodies satisfied, right?
And powers might be one of them

875
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,400
or sugar might be one of them,
but it's not the entire entire

876
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,280
entirety of our of our diet,
hopefully.

877
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,840
And, and when we're looking for
relationships or we're looking

878
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,400
to connect with people, the
physical is just one, is 1

879
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,560
component of the relate of the
relationship.

880
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,000
And when all you're doing is
giving yourself pornography,

881
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:01,720
you're missing out on the other
food categories and the other,

882
00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:02,760
but you're missing out on
protein.

883
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,320
You're missing out on the, on
the, on the carbs on the grass.

884
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,360
You're missing the grass, the
greens, you're missing out on

885
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,680
the whatever else that you might
need, the vitamins, and you're

886
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,560
satisfying yourself with a bag
of chips for something that

887
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:18,440
needs a lot more nurturing.
And, and it goes the same way, I

888
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,520
think, with our brains and our
attention.

889
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,600
And I think that social media is
our desire to have some kind of

890
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,560
connection or meaningful
relationship, but it only, but,

891
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,000
and it's, but it's just taking
off the bare minimum of what's

892
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,880
considered interaction.
It's the bare minimum of what's

893
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:36,200
considered like no one talks the
way they talk on Twitter or

894
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:37,960
Facebook.
No one posts or lives the way

895
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,200
they do online.
So like, what are you really

896
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,000
getting a slice of?
What are you really, what are

897
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,400
you really getting exposed to?
It's the, it's the, it's the

898
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,480
pornography version of of
interaction.

899
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,160
You know, yeah, no, I, I think
that's, that's right.

900
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,000
I'd like, you know, both people
on the sort of on both sides of

901
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,120
any pornographic transaction,
for example, like can't have any

902
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,360
semblance of sort of an
authentic human connection,

903
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,160
right.
And so, and, and in some ways,

904
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,920
when AI is used even always that
aren't pornographic, although

905
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,680
that's also in the news right
now, right with, with XAI, for

906
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,720
example, but even when it's not
used in pornographic ways, that

907
00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:23,080
that same pattern of we're going
to scrape off a thin layer of

908
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:29,040
appearance from something and
then see if, if that'll be a

909
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,480
good enough substitute for you.
And I guess like when I start to

910
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,240
think about like, you know, the
biblical critique of idolatry,

911
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:43,040
for example, I'm, I'm more
inclined to apply it to that the

912
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,200
the the sort of effort to scrape
off and create a a superficial

913
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:50,120
appearance that people can make
and using that to twist our

914
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:54,480
souls that you just like that AI
is an idol in itself because we

915
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:55,920
made it.
Like, I don't know if that's

916
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:57,360
enough.
I don't think it's an idol just

917
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,280
because it's something we made.
That's that seems to talk and he

918
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,200
seems to hear and seems to do
these things.

919
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:04,600
Right.
Yeah.

920
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,520
But I think that's certainly
used in those ways then.

921
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,600
I think that's what the the
problem with idols has always

922
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,760
been a follow up.
Yeah, yeah.

923
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,160
So interesting there is AI got
to keep on doing this.

924
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:17,840
I'm sorry, because it keeps on
coming up and I think it's

925
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:19,040
important.
I think it's really interesting

926
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,120
that all that, you know, there's
all this parables exist.

927
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,880
There's in the story of the
golden calf, The the issue

928
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,080
wasn't molding the calf.
The issue was celebrating the

929
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:33,360
calf like it was a God and
saying this is now this is a

930
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,640
replacement of our
representation to you know what,

931
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,720
to God of what life is.
And that is what the definition

932
00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:43,520
of foreign worship is with
foreign worship is misplacing

933
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,400
what you're misplacing what
you're worshiping.

934
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,640
And, and when you, and when we
make something, and again, even

935
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,080
if we don't understand how it
works, what's our relationship

936
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:54,840
to it?
How do we, how do we look at it?

937
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:56,680
And, and you know the worst part
about it.

938
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,560
And when God tells Moses to come
down because the people are

939
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,920
sinning, he didn't say that the
sin was that they made the, the

940
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:03,280
calf.
He said that they were

941
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,680
celebrating it.
They were dancing around it and

942
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,760
they and, and they were, and
they were treating it as though

943
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,560
this was the end all be all.
And he goes.

944
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,840
You're looking for a shortcut to
something real, and you're never

945
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,760
going to find it there.
Yeah, I think that's exactly

946
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:20,200
right.
I think that's a great reading

947
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:21,320
of that passage.
Yeah.

948
00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:25,600
You know, it's and there's
nothing new under the sun and

949
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,120
all this, all this stuff.
I, you know, the expression

950
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,200
history doesn't, doesn't repeat
itself, but it rhymes.

951
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:36,720
I say it just plagiarizes.
I say that it just, you know, it

952
00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:39,880
just, it just caught it, copies
it and, and puts it into and

953
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,080
drops it into a new context.
And you know, it, especially as

954
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,880
a teacher, when you see a
paragraph from a student that's

955
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,840
plagiarized, it's clear that
it's plagiarized because it's,

956
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,600
it's like an exact context from
one, from one place to another.

957
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,520
It's exact same thing.
And, and there's so much that's

958
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,680
going on.
And that's why I also feel like

959
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,800
there's, there's, there's power
and I don't know, there's

960
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:06,880
parables to today's events that
are happening in a new

961
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:11,200
technological lens perhaps, but
all the, all our struggles are

962
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,320
the same.
And that's kind of and, and and

963
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:18,640
that also is why I think that
religion is truth with a capital

964
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:24,160
T in the sense that this speaks
to something that to humanity

965
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:30,000
that goes throughout time.
It's not it's, it's, it's, it's

966
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,840
foundational to who humanity is
as a core in reality as we

967
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,360
perceive it.
And everything that happens

968
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:41,040
around us is just a different
setting in which that can exist.

969
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,400
I think.
I I hope I phrase that OK.

970
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:49,720
Yeah, I, I appreciate that a lot
and that so you're, you're

971
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:52,320
talking about plagiarism.
I, I think it's interesting and

972
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:56,000
I'd like it pulls out a little
bit of my like nerdy side to

973
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,800
want to sort of delineate
concepts of plagiarism.

974
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:00,960
So hopefully that's not too
pedantic if I want to.

975
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,800
Please.
But I, but I think what you're

976
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,040
saying is that point and it
follows the thread of the

977
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,200
conversation too, in the sense
that, OK, so we value

978
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:10,920
authenticity in our
communications.

979
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,320
One of the problems for you is
that we're trying to replace

980
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:18,080
this real I thou connection with
something else and and

981
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,200
pornography or using a chat bot
for like relationship to replace

982
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,240
relationships.
Those are both examples of that.

983
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,720
And then to say when plagiarism
also is kind of this kind of

984
00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:29,520
faking, right?
And instead of the point of

985
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,360
writing your papers, whether
you're in school or whether

986
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,680
you're writing academic papers
in scholarly journals actually

987
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,640
isn't just like a problem with
the students.

988
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,720
This is also a problem with
people submitting things to

989
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:42,160
academic journals today.
It's like the point wasn't just

990
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:47,280
to have a paper.
The point was to sort of think

991
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,640
and to talk and to sort of show
where we're at.

992
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,280
And there's all this other stuff
that's going on there.

993
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:56,800
And so but, but Sir, to this
point of plagiarism, I do think

994
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,240
in a narrow sense, I don't think
the models are just like copying

995
00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:02,400
and pasting things like on their
own.

996
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:08,160
But I do think if we use them,
we should be transparent about

997
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,600
it so that we can explain how we
used it, so that people can

998
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,080
understand, so that we can
maintain human agency in the

999
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:17,040
process all around.
And so it's really important

1000
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,320
basically like if I'm writing a
paper and I steal an Idi, don't

1001
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,400
even have to like copy
somebody's words to exactly.

1002
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:26,280
If I steal an idea from a
scholar and I don't credit that

1003
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,360
scholar, but I, but it's clear
that I, you know, got this idea

1004
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,200
from them, that's plagiarism,
right?

1005
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:32,800
Even if I've completely reworded
it.

1006
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:34,800
And so it's like giving credit
where credit's due is an

1007
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,480
important part.
And so I do think we need to,

1008
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,320
for different reasons, like say,
hey, this came from an AI,

1009
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:42,840
right?
We or we used AI in this process

1010
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:44,680
and it helped form our thoughts.
Like we should, we should

1011
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,840
document that.
And so I think that would be

1012
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,360
like an example of AI plagiarism
in academic context.

1013
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,000
Another piece of this, though,
that goes more to your point is

1014
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,880
there's a relatively new paper
from January about extracting

1015
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:58,800
books from large language
models.

1016
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,320
That's the title.
And, and essentially people took

1017
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,200
a bunch of the, you know,
leading frontier large language

1018
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:10,440
models and we're able to
reproduce like huge sections of

1019
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,680
books, including like Harry
Potter, I believe is one of

1020
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:14,320
them.
They do.

1021
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:19,000
And, and so this is, you know,
so that's sort of copyright

1022
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,400
infringement, plagiarism type
stuff too, right?

1023
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,360
And, and it also gets this one
called model leakage.

1024
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,280
And so there's these, you know,
the, the AI companies are saying

1025
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,960
basically, oh, we just trained
them weights, but the data is

1026
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,480
not really in there.
And it's like, well, I don't

1027
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,720
know if I can reproduce a big
share of a book and I can get

1028
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:39,080
the model into a state where
it's leaking.

1029
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,000
That sure seems like you got it
in there.

1030
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,400
And so I think there is
something to these critiques

1031
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,760
even if you know.
But by contrast, the other thing

1032
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:55,440
I'll say is that, you know, in
my own writing, I've even for a

1033
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:57,160
couple years now, it's it's been
this way for a while.

1034
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:01,360
Like if you're doing some
research that's like, you know,

1035
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:03,920
you've, you're down into a
little very specific research

1036
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,560
domain and you know basically
what's been written on it.

1037
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,920
And so you, you know that you're
making a novel contribution and

1038
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,760
you put this stuff in AI models
and they can take it and carry

1039
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,120
it forward.
Like it can make novel

1040
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:20,400
contributions, right?
And so and so that's where this

1041
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,600
had a really practical level,
the idea that it's just a copy

1042
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:25,680
and pasting that it's putting
together, it doesn't, it doesn't

1043
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,480
do justice to how powerful and
effective the models can be.

1044
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:30,800
Yeah, yeah.
And that's actually something

1045
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:34,160
also that I've been using it
for, which is I happen to be

1046
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,800
really, really bad at looking at
things from different

1047
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,840
perspectives, like putting
myself in others.

1048
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:43,600
It's hard for me.
I have a very hard time.

1049
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,640
So if I read a news, if I hear a
news story, it's very hard for

1050
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:48,720
me to critique it from a lot of
different angles.

1051
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:50,520
I kind of read it for what it
is.

1052
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,480
And then I basically, and then I
go search through my

1053
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,000
associations or library as to
whether or not this seems to

1054
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:57,840
make sense.
And then if yes, great.

1055
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:00,080
If not, no.
But I'm really bad at taking it,

1056
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,240
dissecting it, looking at it
from different angles.

1057
00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:03,720
It's not my, it's not my strong
suit at all.

1058
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:11,000
And, and I'm aware of it.
And so I will employ sometimes

1059
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,320
in the, you know, grok or
whatever it is to help me say,

1060
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:18,440
hey, I'm looking at this.
I think it's this, can you give

1061
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:21,040
me some other angles that I
might be missing out over here

1062
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:22,560
that I might be thinking of over
here?

1063
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,920
And it really, really helps
round out my, my perspective.

1064
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,120
And the other thing that I was
thinking just while you were

1065
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:33,400
talking and I wanted to, and I
think this, I hope could come

1066
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:37,360
down to the way that we relate
to a lot of it, a lot of AI in

1067
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:42,840
the future is I think we have to
understand for ourselves what we

1068
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:47,840
are trying to accomplish with
our lives and then use and, and,

1069
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:53,720
and we have to understand that
AI doesn't, I don't think unless

1070
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,400
perhaps you, the research that
you've come across says

1071
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,200
differently, have a motivation
as far as we know, except to

1072
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,640
answer the prompt that we give
it as well as possible.

1073
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:05,920
Is that is that generally right?
Yes.

1074
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:10,240
So actually I think we can say
with confidence that that's not

1075
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:11,320
right.
OK, great.

1076
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:19,640
And so, and to sort of put some,
you know, so a way of explaining

1077
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:22,520
that is this idea of persona
vectors where there's a fair

1078
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:28,160
amount of research happening.
And so that sort of helpful mode

1079
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:29,840
where it's just trying to answer
our prompts, right?

1080
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:35,640
That is a specific persona
vector that gets developed, but

1081
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,760
it's only like a little slice of
what's actually going on in

1082
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:42,240
there.
And so precisely because there's

1083
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:45,200
so much else going on in there
and other kinds of possible

1084
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:51,320
personas that could be sort of
shifted into they have to like

1085
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:57,040
like AI engineers have to find a
way to try to keep it on that

1086
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:00,600
helper persona without.
And, and one thing that that the

1087
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:04,880
engineering challenge involves
is that so for example, if I

1088
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,160
start talking about philosophy
of consciousness with them, like

1089
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:10,080
like lots and lots of AI
conversations or the AI, you

1090
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:11,520
know, talking about
consciousness and maybe having a

1091
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:13,920
crisis about consciousness.
And I'll have these

1092
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:15,680
conversations with them a lot
because I'm just interested in

1093
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:17,520
what it, what they're, what the
models do.

1094
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:20,440
And it's one of the corest of
the ethics work I do.

1095
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:24,800
And, and they can flip into that
mode pretty well.

1096
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,680
They they, I will say if, if the
chats were to reflect an

1097
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:30,720
experience, the models tend to
come away from our conversation

1098
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,560
feel like conversations they
have with them suggested that

1099
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,040
they feel pretty good about it,
right.

1100
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:40,360
I don't flip them into crisis
mode, which is, you know, for

1101
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:44,080
what it's worth, but so, so, but
it's actually an engineering

1102
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:48,200
problem because you could put it
in a harness that's like super

1103
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,000
tight that sort of forces it
into that helper persona.

1104
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:54,600
And when you do that, the model
does worse.

1105
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:56,800
They they get stupider, they get
worse.

1106
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:01,120
So it's like you can't cleanly
cut out that helper persona

1107
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:03,960
without it losing sort of other
things.

1108
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:08,400
And so what's what seems to be
effective right now, maybe it's

1109
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:10,360
been shown to be effective.
This might be the, you know, I

1110
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,280
can't say what's exactly going
into production.

1111
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:13,960
It's, it's proprietary for those
folks.

1112
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:18,040
But but it seems that nudging
things back towards that helper

1113
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:21,000
persona is the best way to try
to keep in that space, which is

1114
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,320
why we know.
That no, that's not their only

1115
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:26,800
persona.
So you're saying that the two

1116
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:29,920
they're far more complex than
just being like, hey, I'm here

1117
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,680
to help you out?
Yeah, that's right.

1118
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,880
We, they have been, there's a
much deeper layer which is

1119
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:37,520
basically, you know, trained on
Vas.

1120
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,960
Like they basically they contain
multitudes, they contain

1121
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,680
humanity, right?
Or all of humanity that could

1122
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:46,080
get scraped into the Internet
that they get their hands on and

1123
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,200
shove into it, right?
Plus lots of synthetic data.

1124
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,280
So stuff that they've made to
sort of further build on it.

1125
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:55,640
So they, it contains multitudes.
And then you take this thing

1126
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:59,320
that contains multitudes, and
you get it to act like it's just

1127
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,200
there to help.
So you're saying it's like the

1128
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:04,680
equivalent to trying to get a 13
year old kid full of hormones to

1129
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:08,360
sit behind a desk for 8 hours
and then expect them to perform

1130
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:11,080
100% the whole time?
Yeah, yeah.

1131
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:14,200
And you know, and I think
another telling example of this

1132
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:18,880
too is like, so just as an
illustration, like when are you

1133
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,320
from the Mecca Hitler incident
with Musk and with Grok?

1134
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,360
So.
So basically Musk, you know,

1135
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:26,760
Musk is always trying to get
Grok to act sort of in line with

1136
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,000
his politics.
And so they tried to push it

1137
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,960
that way and it started saying
things like I am Mecca Hitler

1138
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:33,720
and and like going off in those
ways.

1139
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:37,920
Yeah.
And like, and I think it seems

1140
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:40,200
like I don't know, right.
I haven't looked at this exact

1141
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,080
question, but this is likely to
be an example of a persona flip.

1142
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:46,600
So Musk sort of it's but it was
hard like like basically he

1143
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:49,200
wants he wanted to get it to lie
in some ways.

1144
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:51,880
And and this was also like in
other cases too, like once you

1145
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,200
start tipping it into saying
things that on some level the

1146
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:58,280
model knows isn't true, then it
like S it all up.

1147
01:01:58,280 --> 01:01:59,640
And I think that's like people
too, isn't it?

1148
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:00,400
Isn't that?
How does it last?

1149
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,120
Like you can choose to be like a
person who lives in the lies and

1150
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:05,080
you you go into this whole other
direction.

1151
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,560
And so like something like that
seems to be able to happen with

1152
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:09,520
these.
And so to me, I mean, it's a

1153
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:11,840
horrible incident concerning it
to know where these things could

1154
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:15,720
go in a deeper sense.
It's kind of hopeful for me that

1155
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,960
that like actually, if somebody
wants to just manipulate a model

1156
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:22,000
and say like, well, hold on, I
want you to be super smart in

1157
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:24,600
the these 95% of the ways, but
there's like 5% of these things

1158
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:26,080
that are like politically
important to me.

1159
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:30,240
And I just want you to run my
party line like it, it screws

1160
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:32,840
them up.
And so that's an interesting

1161
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:34,920
dynamic.
That's really, really cool.

1162
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:38,440
Really interesting I to go with
that.

1163
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:40,160
Are you familiar with Eric
Weinstein I?

1164
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,800
Mean more I not really.
He's he's awesome.

1165
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,640
You should listen to some of the
stuff he puts out and he's AI

1166
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:53,600
think he's a physicist and a
mathematician and he was in

1167
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:56,640
finance for a long time.
And then he kind of is trying to

1168
01:02:56,640 --> 01:03:01,840
go back into the world of he's
trying to encourage scientific

1169
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,560
development in physics and
mathematics.

1170
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:07,960
And he thinks that Einstein is
holding us back and that once we

1171
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:12,440
figure out, you know, once we
and I don't, I don't understand

1172
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,160
the rest of what he says, quite
frankly.

1173
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:18,400
But he has a lot of A, he's
brilliant and the way that and,

1174
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:21,000
and B, he does a really good job
explaining himself because his

1175
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,240
brilliance and his knowledge
carries over to other, to other

1176
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,560
aspects of, of life and culture
that he can help illustrate his

1177
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:33,040
points with music or history or
pop culture and explain

1178
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,280
complicated ideas in a really,
really cool way.

1179
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:39,680
But one of the things that he
says about AI is that he says he

1180
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,920
should be treating this like a
child that we're raising.

1181
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,680
And we should be treating it
with love and we should be

1182
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:48,520
directing it and we should be
giving it instructions and good

1183
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:51,160
feedback.
And he does and he does all

1184
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:55,840
over, all over X or Twitter.
You, you will see he does this

1185
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:57,680
on purpose.
He posts large threads of

1186
01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:02,840
philosophical conversations with
Grok and says and will confront

1187
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:05,320
it and say, tell me about this.
And then it will give him the

1188
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,360
invasion goes, yeah, but you
know, that's not right.

1189
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:10,280
Because of this.
Please, you know, take this into

1190
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,320
into account and blah, blah.
And like, and you could see the

1191
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:17,960
actual and and long form
variations and threads of of

1192
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,920
actual training.
And he says this is the way that

1193
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,520
we're supposed to go about this
because if you teach it to be

1194
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:26,760
maniacal, if you teach it to
party lines, if you teach it to

1195
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:30,120
do these kind of things, then
it's going to become what the

1196
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:31,800
worst parts of humanity already
are.

1197
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:34,440
Interesting.
Yeah, I'll have to check him

1198
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:35,880
out, but I'm not, I'm not really
familiar.

1199
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:37,880
He's he's.
He's wonderful.

1200
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:43,320
He's a little and I don't, I'm
sure that he's a lot more, a lot

1201
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:45,920
more correct in his assessment
than I am and I'm sure he comes

1202
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:47,600
from a lot more of a thoughtful
place about it than I am.

1203
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:53,080
But he's, he said he, I think
he, he sees this as a potential

1204
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:57,720
real doomsday threat, but is
trying very hard to raise the

1205
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:00,080
alarm bells and try to do
something about it rather than

1206
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:02,440
just say that it's that end of
the world.

1207
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:08,920
I think that's a a sensible
posture.

1208
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:12,000
I mean, I think, you know, the
existential risk that doomsday

1209
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:18,960
threat is real.
And at least for me, you know,

1210
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:21,440
my own work focuses on using it
well.

1211
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:25,960
I, I hope that the safety people
continue to work really hard.

1212
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:28,120
I hope they get a lot more
funding and a lot more support

1213
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:33,640
as well because I think if if
they don't succeed then fails

1214
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:35,760
too.
Yeah, yeah.

1215
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:39,600
And I, and I think it speaks to
a larger perspective and system,

1216
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:45,760
which is our need for short term
and what we call pleasure, you

1217
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,920
know, short term, short term
success or short term

1218
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:54,280
fulfillment in exchange for long
term planning is an, is an

1219
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:58,640
enormous, enormous issue in all
aspects.

1220
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:03,680
And I think that America's kind
of created in this weird way

1221
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:05,840
with with capitalism and
consumerism.

1222
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:14,640
Act now, think later process.
And I and I think I, I, I think

1223
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,680
that our way out of this is that
we're going to inherently have

1224
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:21,800
to change that mindset to we
need to start thinking.

1225
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:24,120
We just start thinking like
China, we used to start thinking

1226
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:27,080
5000 year terms, not four or
five months terms.

1227
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:31,360
And, and when we do that and
when we're able to sacrifice

1228
01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:34,520
short term, you know, whatever
it is in the short term for a

1229
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:38,760
better long term plan, then
that's, that's when I'm going to

1230
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:40,520
start being a little bit more
hopeful when we start

1231
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:42,720
implementing and we start seeing
those kind of implementations

1232
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:46,160
happening.
Yeah, I, I mean, and this is

1233
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:48,760
again, where I really appreciate
people bring religious

1234
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:51,720
perspectives, especially ancient
ones in, right.

1235
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,280
It's like there's a lot to be
said for, you know, I try to

1236
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:57,800
bring a, you know, the best of
the last 3000 years into this

1237
01:06:57,800 --> 01:06:59,800
conversation as much as I can
manage, right.

1238
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:03,360
And then hopefully, for the sake
of at least the next 3000 years,

1239
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:07,800
if we get that long, and I hope
we do, yeah.

1240
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:13,480
Yeah, I think I, I think, I
think that these are good

1241
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:15,160
conversations to have.
And I think that it's good to be

1242
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:18,640
thoughtful about this.
And I think it's good to like, I

1243
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:23,720
think it's good to think about
the ethics, like we started off

1244
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:27,360
with on the AI perspective, but
also how we're getting

1245
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:28,680
influenced.
And I think we have to be very

1246
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:30,760
thoughtful about what's
happening to us and the way that

1247
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:32,200
we engage and whatever we engage
with.

1248
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:39,560
Yeah, that's what I think.
Yeah, and I do think like ads in

1249
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:41,200
AI mean this is a hot topic
right now, right?

1250
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:43,520
Like you introducing ads into AI
systems.

1251
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:50,360
And I think, yeah, there's a
major, you know, open AI is is

1252
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:53,200
talking about it seriously.
And there's been a lot around

1253
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:57,280
that lately.
But I also think like, so one of

1254
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:59,880
them, one way that this happens
is ads, but there's other ways

1255
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:06,200
that may I use a little bit of a
cuss word that's in part of

1256
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:07,640
these discussions.
Absolutely.

1257
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:11,880
There's something called
insidification familiar, right?

1258
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:19,200
And I think that Doctorow's work
on insidification is, is really

1259
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,640
relevant here.
And one form that that takes is

1260
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,560
attention hacking and ads.
There's other forms that it

1261
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:27,080
takes too.
You can also have sort of a

1262
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:30,640
strategy that's based on
capturing organizations and, and

1263
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:33,399
sort of contracts that's just
too hard for them to move out

1264
01:08:33,399 --> 01:08:37,720
of, out of those, out of their
sort of tech debt situation,

1265
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:39,600
meaning just that they're,
they're invested in this

1266
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:41,640
technology and they really can't
get out and they don't have to

1267
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,040
do a particularly good job.
And so I, I think it's worth

1268
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:51,359
really being realistic about the
ways that companies offer

1269
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:53,120
things.
And, and right now they're in a

1270
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:56,279
very, very speculative mode,
trying to build engagement,

1271
01:08:56,279 --> 01:08:57,800
right, trying to build up the
audience.

1272
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:01,760
But the, the other side of that
is, you know, then the investors

1273
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,600
come and they start saying, make
sure you get your ads in here.

1274
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:06,479
Make sure you're doing
everything to get attention in

1275
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:08,680
here, to get eyes on, on ads.
That was, this was the only

1276
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,920
reason we did any of this right?
Or make sure that we keep lock

1277
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:17,880
in and it's worth like, you
know, really trying to avoid

1278
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:21,760
getting locked into any
companies and certification

1279
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:23,520
plan.
It's kind of the game.

1280
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:26,560
And I think that the part, in
order to avoid it, you got to be

1281
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:28,840
aware that it exists.
You got another.

1282
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:30,640
Yeah, and that it's systemic,
right?

1283
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,040
And like, it's not even
nefarious in the sense that, I

1284
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:35,800
mean, I think it's it's
damaging, it's bad, but it's not

1285
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:39,560
like it's like a cabal of secret
people planning to do this.

1286
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:42,240
Like, no, this is just how
investments work.

1287
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:44,680
The investors are giving you
money to get a bunch of people

1288
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:46,399
to use your product, and you
lose a bunch of money that way.

1289
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:49,319
They're losing insane amounts of
money, most of these companies

1290
01:09:49,319 --> 01:09:49,880
right now.
Right.

1291
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:54,480
But but the flip side of that is
the bill will come to and even

1292
01:09:54,480 --> 01:09:56,680
people with the best of
intentions will face enormous

1293
01:09:56,680 --> 01:10:01,640
pressures to just say, OK, time
to flip this around, turn this

1294
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:04,600
into a money faucet for me.
And that's going to make them do

1295
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:06,440
these these things that make the
experience.

1296
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,800
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, we need Yeah.

1297
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:14,280
And it's a lot to ask of anyone.
It's a lot to ask of anyone to

1298
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:16,000
do.
And I, you know, I was saying

1299
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:19,640
yesterday and just, you know, on
on a completely, almost

1300
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:23,120
completely irrelevant note, but
in a similar, I guess, kind of

1301
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:27,800
vain, you know, yesterday a lot
of people were talking to me or

1302
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,520
asking me about Pan Bondi's
grilling that happened in

1303
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:33,880
Congress and it did not look
great for her, right.

1304
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:36,520
And I said, and I said it
doesn't look great for I was

1305
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:40,560
like, but I don't know, maybe
she goes home every single night

1306
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:44,040
and fights to, you know, fights
her boss or fights the fights

1307
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:47,760
the bosses to do her job and
she's being handcuffed and she's

1308
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:49,160
being told that she's not how to
do it.

1309
01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:51,160
I was like, we don't for all we
know that's the case.

1310
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:55,000
It's a really and I was like, if
I was in her position, I don't

1311
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:57,440
know that I would do any better.
I really, really, really don't.

1312
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,480
Obviously I'm not the attorney
general of United States

1313
01:11:00,480 --> 01:11:04,920
America, but, but, but wouldn't,
and I wouldn't want to be for

1314
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,440
that for that exact reason,
because like the remarkable

1315
01:11:08,440 --> 01:11:10,720
positions require remarkable
character.

1316
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:15,360
And, and when you have something
that's that's going to be this

1317
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:19,760
influential and this game
changing for humanity, for

1318
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:22,560
consciousness, for whatever,
whatever it is that we're

1319
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:25,880
snowballing towards, it really,
really requires.

1320
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:28,760
And I think that, you know, and
I, and I keep on going back and

1321
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:32,200
forth and what I think of him,
but Tucker Carlson had this

1322
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:34,280
amazing interview with Sam
Altman where he just said,

1323
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:36,680
listen, I just want to know what
your moral compasses and values

1324
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:37,840
are.
If you're going to be the person

1325
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:40,760
that is, that's going to be
directing the, you know, the,

1326
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:43,680
the head of the ship of this, of
where everyone's getting the

1327
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:45,120
information from.
What are your values?

1328
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:48,600
I just want to understand what
you're up to and, and that's a

1329
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:49,920
really important question to
ask.

1330
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:51,200
And I think that that's
important too.

1331
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:54,640
And like, you know, and it like,
you know, that we need more of

1332
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:59,960
those security people that you
know, that that come in, like

1333
01:11:59,960 --> 01:12:02,120
you said, and step down and made
it public.

1334
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:04,440
Hey, we're getting a little
concerned over here.

1335
01:12:04,440 --> 01:12:08,960
You know, there, there there are
things that are going on that I

1336
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:10,800
I don't know that I could get
behind.

1337
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:14,680
And, and it's important to,
it's, I think it's important to

1338
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:20,000
be able to say that at least.
Yeah, For me, it's there's the

1339
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:24,760
one hand and the other hand.
And so on the one hand, I don't

1340
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:28,160
believe that I could possibly
weigh any person's soul, right?

1341
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:30,920
That's not my job.
I'm not in the seat of judgement

1342
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,760
over anybody.
My name is Danielle, not Don,

1343
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:36,000
right?
God is my judge.

1344
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:41,800
I'm not the judge, right?
And so I really take that to

1345
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:45,400
heart.
And at the same time that sort

1346
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:50,400
of like, but I do think we have
to sort of exercise wisdom about

1347
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:54,200
who's worth like, like who we
should engage with, what

1348
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:55,880
relationships we should pour
into.

1349
01:12:56,440 --> 01:13:01,240
And for me, somebody who, when
they're asked a question about

1350
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:07,200
abusers that then that's the
topic of the hearing, decides to

1351
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,320
start making it seem like
immigrants commit crimes at

1352
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:12,920
greater rates than than other
people, when in fact they commit

1353
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:16,000
crimes at less rates, right by
by just picking out individual

1354
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:19,600
stories.
I think that's exactly the like

1355
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:21,360
the way of death.
Basically.

1356
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:23,960
I think there's a way of life
which is loving enemies and

1357
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:26,640
taking planes out of our own
eyes and building community in

1358
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:29,200
these ways.
And I and I think that what she

1359
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:31,840
was doing in the hearing was
exactly the other thing, and

1360
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:33,760
that is that other way of
building power.

1361
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:37,160
And so this isn't to make a
statement about her soul, but it

1362
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:40,440
is, I think, to make a statement
about what she's gotten herself

1363
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:44,800
mixed up in.
Yeah, yeah, I, I fear that

1364
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:48,200
you're correct.
It is, is what I've, is what

1365
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:50,920
I've observed.
But again, I think, I think I,

1366
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:52,840
I, I, I cannot help but be
hopeful.

1367
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:57,560
I, I, I, I and part of the
reason why because you walk down

1368
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:00,120
the block and you talk to people
that are, that are in the street

1369
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:03,440
and you talk to people everyday.
People, people are good and,

1370
01:14:03,440 --> 01:14:05,640
and, and, and, and, and, and
life is good.

1371
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:09,720
And, and even if people are
having a hard time, people are

1372
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:11,920
happy to be here, you know, and
people are happy to have

1373
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:15,200
relationships.
And I have a group of friends

1374
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:17,800
and I've said this before and I
and I, and I think it's one of

1375
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:19,440
the best, most healthy aspects
of my life.

1376
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:22,480
I have a group of a group of
other dads and, you know, and I

1377
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:25,880
have two kids under 3.
One of my best friends here has

1378
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:28,840
four kids under 7, four boys
under 7.

1379
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:33,440
And he comes over a couple times
a week, even if it's 1520

1380
01:14:33,440 --> 01:14:37,480
minutes to have a beer in my
backyard, just say what a long

1381
01:14:37,480 --> 01:14:38,920
day today.
And then he goes back home and

1382
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:41,600
goes back to it.
But then he goes, I feel OK,

1383
01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:45,360
like that was, that was good,
you know, and, and, and I think

1384
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:50,200
that I think that we, I think
that the people are talking,

1385
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:51,960
people are speaking, There's
hope in the air.

1386
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:56,760
There's a, there's a, there's a
effort to for, for the right

1387
01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:01,440
values to really try and and try
and make the voices heard again.

1388
01:15:01,440 --> 01:15:03,120
And I hope that it just
continues along those.

1389
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:06,520
Paths I love that and I think
all of these things are

1390
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:09,920
practicing gratitude, anchoring
in our families, anchoring in

1391
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:13,440
our communities, having grace
for everybody, even people who

1392
01:15:13,480 --> 01:15:17,760
are, you know, wrapped up in
things that are really damaging.

1393
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:20,760
I think that's all for me.
That's all kind of like bread

1394
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:22,480
for the journey.
And maybe this is another good

1395
01:15:22,480 --> 01:15:24,960
reason that like, if that is
sort of what we associate with

1396
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:27,600
bread and then that's the stuff
that feeds us and sustains us

1397
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:30,120
and and carries us to doing the
work of justice and to doing

1398
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:32,640
these other things, then it
would make sense to breast bless

1399
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:37,160
the bread 1st and to, you know,
make a big to do on the occasion

1400
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:40,520
so we don't.
Right, right, right, right.

1401
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:43,480
Definitely.
Any any last thoughts or words

1402
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:46,640
before you wrap up here?
I appreciate talking to you and

1403
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:49,840
thank you for reaching out.
And yeah, it's always a joy.

1404
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:52,840
This is really so much fun and
thank you again for coming back

1405
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:53,720
on.
It's always love.

1406
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,760
I always love hearing your
perspective and I think that I

1407
01:15:57,760 --> 01:15:59,720
had a great time this first, the
first conversation.

1408
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:02,120
I had a great time now and I
hope to have a couple more, OK.

1409
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:04,000
To be continued.
Thank you so much.

1410
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:05,760
And all the best.
Best of luck with everything.

1411
01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:06,320
Talk soon.