#146 Amy Binder / Left & Right on Campus / Trump / Libertarians / Organizational Influence on Campus

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and we're live Amy.
Welcome, welcome.

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Thank you so much for joining us
on the episode.

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I'm so excited to be talking to
you.

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Well, thank you for the
invitation and I'm very happy to

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be here.
Yes, I am.

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So I am excited to talk to you
because I hope that this will be

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a fun, informative and
thoughtful approach to politics

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and understanding of some of the
political temperament I guess

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in, in our world today.
And, and I came across the

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research and I thought, you know
what, I, we could really use

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some cool heads and you seem
like a cool headed person and we

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would like for you to prevail.
So I'd love to, I'd love to

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maybe you could just introduce
what you, what you do and what

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you study and we can go from
there.

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Sure.
I am a sociologist and I am at

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Johns Hopkins University, have
been here for a couple of years.

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Prior to that, I was at the
University of California, San

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Diego for most of my career.
And I moved to Hopkins because

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there is an interdisciplinary
institute called the SNF Agora

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Institute.
And we are committed to studying

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democracy and democratic
backsliding around the world.

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And we also are interested in
doing not just academic

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research, but also working with
community partners and having

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more of our work be public
facing than just purely

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scholarly oriented.
That's really cool.

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So what kind of outreach is
programming does this

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organization do?
So we do a lot of programming

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for students to help them think
about how to have difficult

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conversations across ideological
differences.

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And then and and we do that as
well internally with other

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faculty.
We think about whether there's

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room for greater viewpoint
diversity within the university,

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both our own and others as a
more programmatic idea.

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And then we also do a lot of
this public facing work.

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So a lot of, you know, writing
for publications, sub stacks,

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New York Times, The Atlantic, a
lot of us are quoted very

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frequently about our research
and also thinking about how to

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turn research into things that
practitioners can use, whether

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that's folks who are staffing
The Hill or or journalists

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themselves or dissidents in
other countries or artists and a

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whole variety of other folks
like that.

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Wow, that's so, it's so
interesting.

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It's so cool.
I have two questions.

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I guess the first easier follow
up would just be what other

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countries, can you give me an
example that you guys impact or

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go to or try to impact?
Yeah, so I have one colleague

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who's studying democratic
backsliding protest in

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Venezuela.
I have another colleague who's

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not a professor.
She's one of our fellows, Anne

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Applebaum, who writes for The
Atlantic, very prominent public

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intellectual, writes a lot about
Eastern Europe, has an

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incredible podcast called
Autocracy in America, comparing

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modalities in the US to that
which has happened in Turkey and

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Hungary and other places around
the world.

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And so we have, I have another
colleague who studies corruption

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predominantly in China.
So there really is an

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international core of folks.
Most of us study American

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politics in some way or another,
but we do have that global reach

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as well.
Sure, sure.

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Well, I mean, I think that in
order to understand American

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politics, and I think I've come
to realize this over the last

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probably year and a half to
maybe 2 years of my life, in

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order to understand American
politics, you got to have a

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little of a bit of an
understanding as to what's going

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on in the rest of the world.
Because, you know, our

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decisions, as much as I think a
lot of people would like, our

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decisions are typically not made
in a vacuum.

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You know, and the kind of
decisions that are made in the

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legislature that's passed and,
you know, whether you're left or

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right and whether the president
is left to right, No, decisions

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are just made in a vacuum of,
hey, you know, we're here in

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this country and I'm a Democrat
and we're here in this country

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and I'm a Republican.
And therefore we're just going

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to do this.
And I mean, it seems more clear

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to me now than ever that that
other countries definitely have

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a say or influence in or not.
I don't want to say influence,

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but perhaps influence, I don't
know.

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But at least the it's the the
other countries are taken into

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consideration.
Right.

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Well, there's geopolitical
influence, and then there's also

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kind of looking to other
countries as models for, you

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know, how to do things.
And I think that it's

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inescapable that the Trump
administration, for example, has

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looked prominently at Turkey and
at Hungary even more so to think

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about how it should approach
universities or how it should

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approach protest or how it
should approach.

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Interesting.
Have they?

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Yeah.
Yeah, I think so.

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I'm sorry.
What what are the relationships

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or what can you or what are the
you know what, what what have

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you correlation that you've
established potentially?

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Well, so this I, I will say that
this is outside my research

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area, so I'm just dipping my toe
in for the moment.

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But certainly in Hungary, Viktor
Orban's approach to shutting

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down universities or
constraining speech is very much

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a model for the Trump
administration especially.

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And Orban has been a favored
head of state in the US He's

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spoken at traditionally national
conservative conferences.

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So he's really looked to as, as,
you know, a person to emulate

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and a government to emulate.
Cool, really interesting.

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That's that's I didn't I didn't
I didn't know that and I should

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look a little more into that.
So, Turkey, and I'm sorry, where

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was and?
Hungary in particular.

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Yeah, of course.
Cool.

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OK, Well then let's dip our toes
into a little bit more about

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what you do, which is studying
college campuses, which is

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probably one of the most
important and lively and really

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constantly changing
environments, I would imagine.

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It's so cool.
How so tell me about, I mean, I

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know that you, so your first
book was about becoming right

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and how campus campuses shaped
conservatives, which I'm really

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curious to hear a little bit
about the premise and a little

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bit about that because I was
curious.

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My experience and from what I've
heard from my peers is that

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campuses predominantly lean left
on a general basis.

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So I am curious about, and I,
and I, and you know, for

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example, I do know, and I, I
mentioned I were on the phone

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that or, you know, before
recording that, that I'd, I've

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been a creative writing
literature major, which was a

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largely left-leaning, you know,
field of education.

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And, but, but I know that a lot
of my friends in the accounting

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school were not necessarily
surrounded by liberal

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professors.
Or I know that some of my

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friends and perhaps you know,
data or in engineering schools,

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we're not necessarily surrounded
by liberal teachers And I, I

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wonder if there's a correlation
between what students study and,

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and, and the political impacts
as of of their, you know, their

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outlooks.
Yeah, I mean, this is a huge

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question and thank you for it.
I just one tiny clarification.

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This is the kind of thing that
professors will make much of A

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muchness about.
But it wasn't my first book.

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Becoming Right wasn't my first
book.

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It was my second book, but it
was the first book about higher

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education.
So more or less correct.

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So I, there are many, many
things to say about this.

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So I became interested in higher
education and conservative

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college students around 2005,
2006.

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So I've been writing about these
things for a couple of decades

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now, and it was around that time
that there was a conversation

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that was being held.
I mean, it, it sounds so obvious

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now, but there is a conversation
that arose again in those times

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about universities as
indoctrination mills.

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And there were politicians and
there were pundits and there

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were, you know, folks in the
media who are very concerned not

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only about conservative college
students, but about all students

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being swayed by their liberal
professors into not only, like,

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personally being mistreated or
disrespected.

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But I think there was also a
concern that universities were

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creating a cadre of people who
would vote for Democrats in the

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future.
So there were political concerns

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or personal concerns.
And this was bubbling up in a

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whole bunch of ways and and
nobody had really studied what

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students themselves thought
about this.

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And so I thought I as a
qualitative interviewer, much

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like what you're doing with me
today on this podcast where you

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conduct lengthy interviews to
get long form stories about how

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people come to have their views
and do what they do.

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I thought it would be really
useful to actually talk with

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students and see what their
experiences were.

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So some of the research
questions were, you know, what

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does it feel like to be a
conservative at your university?

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I took out questions of, you
know, it's a great retaliation

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if you write something
conservative or is or is there

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not?
When does it happen?

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When doesn't it happen?
I also wanted to know, like,

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what kinds of politics they were
interested in, whether they

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wanted to kind of go big and be
provocative or be more kind of

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establishment and refined and
quieter.

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And so I chose a, tell me if
this is getting too deep in the

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weeds, but I chose two, OK.
I chose 2 universities. 1 was a

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private elite university on the
East Coast, let's call it an Ivy

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League university, and the other
was a public university in the

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interior WI.
Don't.

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I don't know what Football
League gets in, I'm sorry it's a

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big sports school.
But basically I wanted to look

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at 2 very different kinds of
settings, both 4 year colleges,

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both kind of flagship within
their own sector, and see if

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there were differences in being
at a big state school versus

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being at a small private elite
university that has very

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selective admissions.
And just to cut to the chase,

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what I found is that
conservatives on each campus

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more or less shared the same
ideological tenets at that time.

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They were both for low taxes,
small government, strong

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national security, generally for
cultural, the same cultural

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issues, anti abortion, anti-gay
rights, things of that sort.

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But what was really, really
notable is that the way they

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chose to express themselves were
very different.

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So at the public university
where people were more or less

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anonymous to one another because
it's such a big campus and a lot

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of students don't live on campus
and they don't know each other

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by name, they chose to engage in
very confrontational,

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provocative actions.
They didn't care if they upset

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other people, and they thought
that that would be a better kind

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of political flex for getting
the kinds of jobs that they

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expected in politics later on,
in state government and so on.

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Whereas the students at the
private elite university were

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much warier about doing
provocative actions.

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They knew about provocative
actions.

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They knew that it would be
really fun to do that, but they

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thought of themselves as being
elites and that they were going

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to be working across the aisle
eventually.

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And they chose to do much less
provocative actions because I

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didn't want to anger their
faculty, their fellow students.

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And they were basically setting
themselves up for, you know,

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like world historical positions
later on, right?

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So I could really see what the
effects were of going to a

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different college.
And I think this is this is kind

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of The upshot is that we tend to
think of people as, you know,

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learning about their politics at
the kitchen table with their

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parents.
But my research showed that it

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really matters which college and
university you go to because of

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particular style is kind of a
legacy style at each of these

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two places.
Wow.

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Hey everyone real quick if
you're enjoying the show, click

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subscribe and rate the show. 5
stars helps a ton.

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Thanks so much.
Sorry about that.

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We're back.
So first of all, the reason why

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I was laughing halfway through
is please, I really could not

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help but think about the movie
Animal House while you were

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describing the difference
between the public and private

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universities and, and the type
of frat traditions that they've

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had.
You know, and one guy, one group

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is just driving a motorcycle up
a frat house.

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The other one is, you know, even
though they're also engaging in

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similar behavior, you know, it's
much more organized and having

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that organized, you know, the
proper events and everything

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00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,840
like that.
And there's still just, as you

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00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,200
know, in a different sense, mean
spirited or mean hearted.

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00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,200
It just manifested, I guess, in
a different way.

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00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,000
But that was funny, Paladol,
that popped up in my head while

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you were describing that.
How many, how many students did

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00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,400
you interview?
How long did you run this, run

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00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,480
this, run this for this, study
for it?

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00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:05,720
So we interviewed I'm, I'm
having a hard time remembering

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00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,800
precisely it was somewhere
between 70 and 90.

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I've done a number of additional
studies since then, but it, it

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00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,840
was something like that.
But, and, and I also wanted to

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00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:22,840
add, I'm sorry to preempt your
next question, but you had, you

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00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:29,760
had said that in one academic
discipline, you experienced

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00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,120
professors in one way, but some
of your peers had experienced

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00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,880
their professors differently in
engineering and so forth.

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00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,440
And we did see some evidence of
that.

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00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,840
So students knew which classes
they wanted to avoid because

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00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,720
they were kind of hopelessly
leftist.

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00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,440
The word woke wasn't around at
the time, so they didn't use the

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00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,040
word woke.
But so we did see that there.

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00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,200
They felt like there was some
variation between classes and

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00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,000
especially at the private elite
university students said, look,

250
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,600
I just learned not to take a
critical gender studies class.

251
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:09,240
Like why would I do that to
myself?

252
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,120
I'm so much more conservative
than the professor in there.

253
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I'm not going to do that.
So there was some evidence that

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00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,800
conservative students were
selecting away from, from

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00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,400
certain areas of, of learning.
I'd also say, though, that at

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00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,200
the private elite university,
students generally thought of

257
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:34,520
their professors as being like
experts in their field and like

258
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,960
up on pedestals.
And they would never would have

259
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,760
been hired here if they weren't
like incredible professors were

260
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,320
very respectful of incredible
students like me.

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00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:50,280
So they didn't complain as much
about their professors as a

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00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,320
students at the public
university did who thought that

263
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:58,200
there was just unbridled leftism
in some of their classes.

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00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,640
So that was a really interesting
difference as well.

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I and I the way that I explain
it is that the greater the

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anonymity on classes, the more
you don't know your classmates,

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00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,680
the more you don't know your
professors, the more mistrust

268
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:22,520
can arise both ways, and the
more basically the more

269
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:27,760
polarization can occur because
you don't know and trust other

270
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,400
people on campus.
So I'm curious, just in response

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00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:38,440
to that, perhaps I would think
that if I didn't know what my

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00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,720
professor was thinking, then I
would be afraid to say anything.

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00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,040
I don't know that I would get
necessarily get more polarized.

274
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,120
I would be more likely to keep
my opinions to myself and I

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actually have a story.
So I, I, I in 2016, I voted for

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00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,680
the first time I did happen that
year.

277
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,840
I did vote for Trump.
I was more conservative minded

278
00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:01,880
back then.
And, and my professor, who I was

279
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,400
very close with from the
previous year.

280
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,240
He's my, the creative writing
and literature teacher that I

281
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,560
give him a ton of credit for
getting me involved in the, in

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00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,920
the literary world and teach me
incredible things.

283
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,640
But he abhorred Trump,
absolutely hated him.

284
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And and at a certain point, I
was actually TA ING for him and

285
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,080
he was going and his classes
would turn into almost 45 minute

286
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,280
monologues about, you know,
about Trump and the issues that

287
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,520
it, that, that, that the country
has and why, you know, we've

288
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,960
become the country that we are.
And at this point I'm, I'm

289
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:32,640
conflicted because I'm very
close with him.

290
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,840
I like him a lot.
I'm A and I and, and I know, and

291
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,720
I, I and I completely disagree.
And quite frankly, I'm more

292
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,280
interested in the creative,
creative writing aspect of, you

293
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:42,840
know, what the class is supposed
to be anyway.

294
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,280
And so I went to him out after
class one time and only I only

295
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,280
felt comfortable because I knew
him and I was ready to hang for

296
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:50,760
him.
And it was a real, you know,

297
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,880
we're relatively close.
I said, professor, I was like,

298
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,960
I'm just, you know, Joe, I I
love you, man.

299
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,400
I I just letting you know, like
between the two of us, I did

300
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,200
vote for Trump.
And I totally get why you don't

301
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,480
like him.
I totally understand.

302
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,160
But like, it's killing me that
like, you're just going on about

303
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,200
this nonstop.
And he said, and like, you could

304
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,520
see he was very, very conflicted
for a brief second.

305
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:10,920
And they said, you're absolutely
correct.

306
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:12,840
And then from then on, it's
actually very funny.

307
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,040
During his monologues, he would
take great care to say, and This

308
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:17,400
is why the system's in the
gutter.

309
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,720
And This is why we had people
like Trump and they'd look at me

310
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,400
and go and Hillary and Bernie,
and he's like, they're all a

311
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,840
bunch of Kirks.
And and he really did go out of

312
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,480
his way to, you know, try, I
guess, to not be as isolating

313
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,280
perhaps.
But I think and you know, and,

314
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,840
and on a similar note, I've
heard people make this argument.

315
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,760
I don't know whether I quite buy
it or not.

316
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,240
But also with the with gun use,
particularly in Florida where I

317
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,680
live, people say it's always
safe to assume that the I always

318
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,640
add that the person you're
dealing with has a gun.

319
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,800
Just to be extra safe, you know,
just to just to not try to

320
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,640
provide, you know, provoke
anything more intense than it

321
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,920
could ever possibly get, God
forbid to that point.

322
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:02,240
And I would imagine that.
Sometimes that might happen.

323
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,440
That might you know that I, I
think that the used to be kind

324
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,680
of a, a bridge between what
people's political opinions were

325
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,480
and what they would do in the
public eye, right.

326
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,880
Well, you know, I'm thinking a
lot about this example of your

327
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,880
professor, a trusted faculty
member, mentor.

328
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,600
And, you know, I, I don't know
the situation better, but I

329
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:29,000
really that concerns me that he
was politicizing the classroom

330
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:33,480
in that way.
And I think it's incumbent on

331
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:39,480
professional scholars teaching
young people not to bring their

332
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,720
politics into the classroom.
You know, one of the things that

333
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,320
I heard at public was the public
university was that.

334
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,800
So this was the year that these
were the years leading up to

335
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:59,680
Obama.
And I can't remember who he's

336
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,040
running.
It wasn't Romney in 2008.

337
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:07,800
Oh, McCain, McCain.
And and there were protests

338
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,280
against the war in Iraq.
And the students said that their

339
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,200
professors actually left them
out of class to join the

340
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,920
protest.
And I thought that that was

341
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,400
terrible.
You know, like they can go to

342
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:27,480
protest to the protest on their
own time, but as a faculty

343
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,840
member, you are condoning
certain political activity and

344
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,320
thought and not other political
activity and thought.

345
00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:40,360
And I don't think that is a
professional stance to take.

346
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,640
And interestingly so, there are
a lot more people in the public

347
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,680
university among the
conservatives who said that

348
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:55,040
there faculty members were less
professional than what we heard

349
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,160
at the private elite university.
I don't know, you know, I don't

350
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:04,120
know what that's about.
If there's, you know, not only

351
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:08,240
is there a legacy style for
students at the university, but

352
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,560
there's also a legacy style for
faculty at these different

353
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,880
institutions.
That's probably true, but I

354
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,560
thought that, you know, in
general, what was happening at

355
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,680
the elite private sounded better
than what was happening at the

356
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,680
public.
And so, you know, one of my

357
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,960
takeaways from that book was
that faculty have an obligation

358
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,240
to be very careful about
portraying their own politics in

359
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,520
class and that they to the best
of their abilities, they should

360
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,120
not do that.
You said that you voted for

361
00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:47,720
Trump in 2016.
I did not.

362
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,680
I grew up in a liberal family.
You know, I'm, I'm like many of

363
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:58,000
the faculty at my university
and, and left of center, But you

364
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,640
know, I would be extremely upset
if I heard that conservative

365
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,040
students or libertarian students
or students further to the left

366
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,040
then I am felt uncomfortable in
my class because of my political

367
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,760
stances.
So I try with the best of my

368
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,640
ability not to bring politics
into the classroom.

369
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:18,720
That's really awesome.
I really can do that.

370
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,400
That's really great.
I the other thing I was thinking

371
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,680
while you were just responding
about the public universities is

372
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,720
I was also wondering, and you
know what?

373
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,560
I so when I was in high school,
I, I started off in a small

374
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,280
private, all boys school and I
switched to a much larger, it's

375
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,680
also a private school, but a Co
Ed school about halfway through

376
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,480
high school.
And one thing my mom had warned

377
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,880
me about, because she was very
hesitant to send me there,

378
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,800
probably rightfully so.
My mom typically has known best

379
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,800
throughout my life.
So I trust her.

380
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,280
I trust her for almost
everything.

381
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,040
But one thing that that she had
said was there's going to be a

382
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,840
lot more shenanigans going on in
this bigger school.

383
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,480
And she's like, even if
hypothetically it's the same

384
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,240
percentage, just the fact that
you're surrounded by so many

385
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,480
more people, just the fact that
the population is so much larger

386
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,960
will probably mean that you're
going to just be exposed to more

387
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,200
of it.
And it's, it might be a little

388
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,600
bit more regular.
I'm curious if that's the case.

389
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,760
I mean, if you're, if you're a
university that has 10,000

390
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,160
undergrads or 15,000 undergrads,
and then you're a public

391
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,720
university with 100,000 students
or whatever, whatever number it

392
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,360
may be, you're going to, you're
going to have to hire a lot more

393
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:28,640
people.
And you know, and especially

394
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,480
with that kind of sense of
exclusivity that that these

395
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,760
private schools or Ivy League's
have had for so many years, you

396
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,520
know, it almost seems, it almost
seems inevitable that something

397
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,040
like that would.
Happen.

398
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,600
Yeah, I think that's right.
I, I, I do think that the

399
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,520
smaller the community, the, you
know, in many ways the easier it

400
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,040
is to have high quality
conversations.

401
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,360
The analog to that is like
social media versus like people

402
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:59,320
you actually talk with, right?
Like the more anonymous it gets,

403
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:04,480
the fewer guardrails there are
for talking.

404
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,720
So I think that's right.
I think the other thing that

405
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,560
happens when you're on a big
more anonymous campus is that

406
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:21,880
you try to you, you gravitate to
people who are within your

407
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,960
community, right?
And so then you get that whole

408
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,000
dynamic of an echo chamber.
So it's like US against the

409
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,000
world.
And I think that that probably

410
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,440
also exacerbates a sense of
like, we need to fight back and

411
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,080
we need to fight that card.
So yeah, those things happen as

412
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,360
well.
I in my in my my personal

413
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:49,640
experience, I've found that a
remedy to that type of thinking

414
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,520
is to actually try to engage in
a lot of different types of

415
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:57,440
communities.
So for example, I jog, I love

416
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,480
craft beer, I do jiu jitsu, I
write, you know, I teach it, I

417
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,280
teach high school English, I do
this podcast, I do business and

418
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:09,320
I do sales.
And so I find myself in a lot of

419
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,240
different worlds and I find
myself having to relate to

420
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,840
people on, you know, very
fundamentally different ways.

421
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,360
But really seeing that like
people are so good for like I

422
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,640
can so many different ways too.
And like, you know what, like

423
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,400
dude, as the dude at the brewery
that tends to be a little bit

424
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,680
more left-leaning says something
that I don't agree with about

425
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,000
foreign policy.
OK, you know what?

426
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,880
We're still having a beer and
hanging out and it's a Sunday

427
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,200
afternoon and watching a sports
game.

428
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,080
It's a good time.
And the same thing on the

429
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,600
jujitsu mat.
If someone tends to be a more

430
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,680
conservative minded and says
something I don't agree about,

431
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,600
about the current war that
we're, you know, that we're in,

432
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,880
then then OK, you know what?
We're here to roll.

433
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,600
We're here to have a good time.
And you know, I totally get

434
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,960
where you're coming from and
like, let's, let's keep like we

435
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,840
still, we still have this
relationship and establish

436
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,480
connection despite the
disagreement.

437
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,840
And I think that with social
media also like what you say,

438
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,600
what you're saying and maybe
what you're even implying is

439
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,040
that this cut the social media
bubbles of echo chambers

440
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,000
actually started earlier in the
early 2000s with college

441
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,520
campuses.
Is that something that you that

442
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:09,120
you think would be accurate?
Yeah, I, I mean, I don't know

443
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,440
the deep history of this.
We know that Facebook started at

444
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,280
Harvard so that Mark Zuckerberg
and like, right, how cute women

445
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,320
were or girls were.
So some of that was beginning.

446
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,760
I think that you see this in
social life all the time as

447
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:31,240
people find like minded people
and the more they feel at odds

448
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,480
with the larger society, then
they'll cluster together.

449
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,320
I I just think that's what we
do.

450
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,000
I mean, that's what ethnic
tribes are.

451
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,600
That's what race tribes.
That's why they're women's

452
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,240
organizations.
You know, like we do that kind

453
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:50,360
of thing, but the question is
how bad do we think the other

454
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,280
people are on the other side of
that boundary are right?

455
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,040
If you haven't read Robert
Putnam's book Bowling Alone, I

456
00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,520
would recommend that you read
that.

457
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,040
This is an older book, but it's
really about how the kinds of

458
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,040
community organizations and
associations that you were

459
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:16,040
talking about, you know,
breweries, jujitsu gyms, you

460
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,640
know, golf clubs, whatever, you
know, places, people where

461
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,440
people associate the the
frequency with which people do

462
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,760
this has absolutely plummeted,
absolutely plummeted.

463
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,960
And the beauty of a thing like a
bowling league was that it

464
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,080
wasn't just working class people
by themselves.

465
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:43,800
Like these associations were
more, you know, cross class

466
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,720
places.
And so people were seeing each

467
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,440
other more.
They were like, it creates more

468
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,600
interdependence, It creates more
trust.

469
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,880
Is it more social capital?
And the more we kind of hive off

470
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:02,800
into these like minded little
pods, you know, I think the

471
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,000
worse it is for for society.
Right, right, right.

472
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:08,840
I totally agree.
I completely agree.

473
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,520
And I think that I think that
there are things that we could

474
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,520
do to kind of get ourselves out
of it.

475
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,280
And I, I, you know, and I, I
think at events, I think in

476
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,280
person events, and I've been
saying this, my podcast for a

477
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,280
while.
Every time I, I have a

478
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,880
psychology series and I, you
know, every single time I talk

479
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,320
to someone that know that
understands people, they all say

480
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,600
the same thing.
They all say isolation is one of

481
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,080
the worst things that we can do
and we're effectively self

482
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,880
imposing it on ourselves almost
since 2020, you know, since

483
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,560
COVID has pretty much been, you
know, and I, and I was, and I'd

484
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,360
spoken to, you know, and
unfortunately, you know, after

485
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,800
the horrible, you know, variety
of school shootings or mass or,

486
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:53,960
you know, murders or whatever
that's happened to, you know,

487
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,800
throughout the year.
I, I, one thing that I can't

488
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,720
help thinking about is how long
that student, you know, this

489
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,480
19/20/21 year old, they were
1718 when COVID happened.

490
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:06,640
They're locked in their house
away.

491
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:07,640
They're locked away in their
house.

492
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,880
Rather they get out of, you
know, they're, they're trying to

493
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,320
find a job that they, maybe
they're in school remote, maybe

494
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,360
they're working remote.
I mean, we don't even know how

495
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,360
often do these people even have
any kind of relationships or

496
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,840
friends and to be blasted.
And you know, I, I just deleted

497
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,240
my Twitter again, again 2 days
ago, you know, because I was,

498
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:24,360
really, was really weighing me
down.

499
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,640
And two days later, I feel
incredible and, but I can't

500
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,760
imagine just the isolation and
the, and, and the stress and

501
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,440
just being bombed from all sides
by, you know, by, by, by, by

502
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,520
horrible, you know, divisive
news.

503
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,440
You know what living in that
living that guy girl's head

504
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,600
would be like, you know, and,
and so I'm immediately

505
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,040
overwhelmed with just sadness of
the scenario that took place

506
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,880
that even allowed this to, to,
to fester for so long and the

507
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,040
end and accumulate and something
so terrible.

508
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,680
Yeah.
And I, I think, you know, we're

509
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,840
talking about universities in
higher education, college

510
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:07,360
campuses and university campuses
are great labs for trying to get

511
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:13,040
people off their devices and
involved with other people.

512
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,080
And ideally with people who
aren't just thinking about

513
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,200
politics or thinking about
social issues or thinking about

514
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,400
masculinity or femininity or war
or peace or whatever.

515
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,840
Like get them talking to one
another.

516
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:34,880
And it's not easy, you know,
once we go down the route of

517
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,440
being more isolated from one
another, what other, you know,

518
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,880
whether that's like individually
isolated or within our own like

519
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,400
minded communities, it is hard
to bring people back into the

520
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,120
fold.
So you really have to design

521
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:56,640
activities and design class work
and design events so that you're

522
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,720
trying to overcome the hurdle
that that we've placed on

523
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,200
society.
But but I think universities are

524
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,200
really good places for that.
They cannot be the only places

525
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,760
for that because only about 30%
of the population goes to

526
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,160
universities and most of them
are, you know, between the ages

527
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:23,400
of 18 and 26 or so.
So we have to be that creative

528
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,200
and think about how universities
aren't the only places for this,

529
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,000
but they can be good test cases,
right?

530
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:36,280
Like, try things there and then
think about transporting those

531
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,280
models that you developed on
campus out into other parts of

532
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,800
society.
Totally, totally.

533
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,560
And I think that for what it's
worth, the most valuable part of

534
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:51,160
university for me was the fact
that I'm living in a town, a

535
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,280
complete city, literally a city
full of just people my age.

536
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,800
Like there was No Fear of like,
you know, like, you know,

537
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,680
walking through the street, you
know, walking through campus

538
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,320
AT2O clock in the morning.
There was no like, like everyone

539
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,320
around me is like my peer.
Everyone around me is someone

540
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,360
that's in a similar position to
me, that's around my age, that's

541
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,480
just trying to do the same
thing, which is me, which is

542
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,120
trying to figure themselves out
and how they're going to support

543
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,840
themselves in this world.
And like, and into how the

544
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,240
entire world where you grow up
with people around that were

545
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,400
you're in a, you're kind of in a
huge, so it's, it's a huge

546
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:28,120
social playground and it's a
huge opportunity to branch out

547
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,800
and experience and, and so many
people try so many wonderful new

548
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,880
things.
Even, you know, and I want to

549
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,080
even just take away the
education aspect for just a

550
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,040
second, even though it's hard
to, you know, it's hard to do.

551
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,120
It's college, you know, just,
you know, I, I tell students, if

552
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,560
they say, what's the, you know,
what's the point of going to

553
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,800
college?
I said, honestly, it depends on

554
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,360
what you want to do.
I was like, but there is so much

555
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,880
value in spending three or four
years on a campus in a city with

556
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,520
a bunch of people your age and
just discovering yourself,

557
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,400
having fun and getting to meet
you got to know people.

558
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,600
Like just that end of itself is
worth it, is worth spending a

559
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,920
couple of years of your life on.
I agree.

560
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,800
When I went off to college a
long time ago in 1982, I really

561
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:13,120
thought of it as, OK, this is a
great opportunity to break out

562
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,880
of whatever shells I was.
Yeah, I've been pretty high in

563
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,159
high school.
And I was like, I can, I can put

564
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:23,560
that aside.
I can be a completely different

565
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,560
person.
Nobody knows me here.

566
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:26,840
All right?
You know, if there are a couple

567
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,400
people from my high school here,
fine.

568
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:34,239
I'll just avoid that.
Like, I get to become a new

569
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,679
person.
I mean, this is one of the

570
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:42,239
reasons why I called that book
Becoming Right was because I

571
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,639
didn't think that people were
already set in stone when they

572
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:49,800
step foot on campus.
I figured that they were

573
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,920
becoming certain kinds of
people.

574
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,880
That's what college is, right?
Like, I mean, that's what all

575
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,200
parts of our lives are.
It's just really concentrated in

576
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,040
the college years, if you let it
be.

577
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:06,240
And I mean, you know, to your
point as well, seeking out

578
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:09,600
people who are more different
from you is very rewarding,

579
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,200
right?
Like there's a way to approach

580
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,080
college and do it in a, in a
safer way, right?

581
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,080
Like you gravitate toward people
who are more like you, whether

582
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,920
that's in sororities and
fraternities or on sports teams

583
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,400
or whatever.
But, and and I'm not saying that

584
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:33,960
that's a bad thing, but also do
the thing that is less

585
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,080
comfortable is less obvious.
Meet those other people, meet

586
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,480
the weirdos, meet the jocks, you
know, like meet the people who

587
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,720
don't agree with you
politically, who don't go to the

588
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:47,800
same church or synagogue or
temple or mosque or whatever,

589
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,800
you know, or none at all, you
know, like talk to those people,

590
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,720
learn from them.
Also learn what they're learning

591
00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:56,520
in class.
That was a real benefit for me

592
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,160
because like, I enjoyed my
classes, but I learned a lot

593
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,240
about what but other people were
learning in their classes and

594
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,320
that was just thrilling you.
Know, I didn't know anything

595
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,720
about college when I got started
and I was very quickly so

596
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:17,280
excited about how many cool
titles of classes there were.

597
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,000
And so my favorite question to
ask people when I was on campus

598
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,680
was what class do you take in
this semester as towards the end

599
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,480
of the semester, what do you
signed up for next semester?

600
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,320
What are you excited to, you
know, what class did you try to

601
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,640
get into that you got locked out
of because everyone's flocking

602
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,960
to that teacher, whatever it is
because, you know, I mean it's,

603
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,240
it's it's incredible how much
you know, I mean, you know, the

604
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:38,240
word has obviously a stigma to
it now, but diversity there is

605
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:42,480
in in the approaches of ways of
of of studying, of studying

606
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,040
anything.
I mean, it's really incredible.

607
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,000
I'm doing a podcast in a couple
of weeks with a professor, with

608
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,840
a professor that's a Bob Dylan
scholar, you know, and as I'm a

609
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,800
huge Bob Dylan fan.
And so this is, this is great.

610
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,680
But I would, I, I, I, I would,
if I knew in high school that I

611
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,920
could be a professor teaching
Springsteen and Bob Dylan

612
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,240
literature, you know, lyrics as
literature and like describing

613
00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:08,320
the American dream or politics
through the, you know, through

614
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,800
the zeitgeist of, of, of, of
lyrics and, and literary works

615
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,680
like that.
I'd be like, this is the best

616
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,000
freaking thing in the entire
universe.

617
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,400
I can't believe how wonderful
this is.

618
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,720
So I think that we have to give
ourselves shots too.

619
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,680
Right.
And as a student, I was an

620
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,560
anthropology major.
I became a sociologist later for

621
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,160
my PhD.
But the best class I took was a

622
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:34,120
American art since 1945.
You know, it gave me a whole new

623
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,040
lens for understanding visual
art.

624
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,040
It gave me a language.
And, you know, it gave me a good

625
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,520
cocktail conversation.
Like, do you prefer Pollock to

626
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,720
the Cooney?
You know, like there's all of

627
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:51,640
the stuff and, you know, it was
was visually inspiring and the

628
00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:56,800
professor was incredible.
And and so I remember more from

629
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,160
that class than I remember from
any other class that I took in

630
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,560
my major or in a more, you know,
social science adjacent.

631
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,080
So yeah, if we're trying to get
the word out there about how to

632
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,560
approach college, it's to be
very open minded and to

633
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,840
experiment a lot and and
experiment widely, I would say.

634
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,360
Yeah, and nothing is set in
stone for anything.

635
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,000
That's the other thing.
And you know, I mean, you can

636
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,600
try something and say it's not
for me.

637
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:28,720
And you could say, you know
what?

638
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:31,120
I, you know, I wanted it.
I, I, I checked this out, this

639
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,960
class or this teacher and even
the fact you could drop classes

640
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,280
and pick one up again for like a
month, a month and 1/2 at the

641
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,800
beginning of this semester is
such a blessing.

642
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:39,920
It's so cool.
You know what?

643
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:41,440
I took this professor for two
weeks.

644
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:42,840
I thought it was going to be
cool.

645
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,360
Wasn't my speed.
He was way too filling the the

646
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,480
blanks, you know, you know,
better or for worse.

647
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,640
And I'm going to do something
else and you can't Don, you

648
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,560
know, like it literally like,
you know, I think that I think

649
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,400
that that's the other thing.
I'm not going to like it.

650
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,920
Well, if you don't, you could
switch in a week or a class or

651
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,600
two classes, whatever you want.
But I digress on one.

652
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,360
Yeah.
Yeah, I would just add to this

653
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,320
conversation that some of the
research that I've been seeing

654
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:15,160
about people being fearful about
what they say in class is more

655
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:20,120
related to their concerns about
their peers than it is about

656
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,320
their concerns with their
professors.

657
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,120
So I, you know, I'm, I'm worried
about saying the wrong thing

658
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,880
politically, for example,
because I feel like I won't be

659
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,120
respected or I don't belong
here.

660
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:39,360
And I think as we move forward,
that's something that all of us

661
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,880
should take seriously.
It's not nearly to the extent

662
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,960
that some would have us believe.
I've, I've seen surveys of

663
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:52,200
students, including one here at
Johns Hopkins where about, you

664
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:57,960
know, like 5% or 7% or 10% of
students talk about this, not

665
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:03,200
90% even.
So, you know, 10% is too many to

666
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,320
be worried about being kind of
castigated.

667
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,480
If they say the wrong thing, but
I think there are ways that we

668
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,440
can kind of construct
conversations or create

669
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,360
opportunities for people to feel
more comfortable about

670
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:19,920
expressing themselves.
And, and I think at a place like

671
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,120
Johns Hopkins, part of it is
that they're just afraid of

672
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:29,920
saying not the politically
sensitive thing, but just like

673
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,200
the wrong answer we have such
like.

674
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,760
Yeah.
These are students who, like,

675
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,680
have thought of themselves as
overachievers their entire

676
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,760
lives, and so they just don't
want to get the wrong answer.

677
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,640
But, you know, in many of these
conversations that we have about

678
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,480
politics or social issues, there
isn't a wrong answer, right?

679
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,200
So we just have to get people
feeling more comfortable about

680
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,880
expressing themselves, and that
opens up a conversation that can

681
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:59,800
be more fruitful.
That's awesome.

682
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,280
It's awesome.
I wanted to lead into and I

683
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,400
think just because it would be
an absolute sin to not

684
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,800
acknowledge this for the sake of
our podcast, but what does among

685
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,960
campus from the left and the
right and the libertarians, I

686
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,440
suppose because you know, it's
interesting that your research

687
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,040
started at a particularly
intensive time.

688
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,200
And I was young.
I was born in 95, so I was only

689
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,120
1012 years old when you were
when you were doing this

690
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,240
research.
But I've since become aware of

691
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:36,280
the fact that, like you said,
Obama was starting to run for

692
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,920
president.
And we were in Iraq and it

693
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,120
looked, you know, and we were
just starting off and we weren't

694
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,440
sure what we thought about the
wars.

695
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,160
And, you know, and I know that
the public was split, was split.

696
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,280
And I know that Bush's
presidency, I, I don't know what

697
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,240
his popularity was like by 2006
or 5 or 6, but I know that right

698
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:57,840
after 911 it shot up.
And then Trump kind of comes and

699
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,280
literally, it feels like shakes
up campus.

700
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,080
And this is actually when I'd,
you know, when I've been there,

701
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:08,760
he shook up college campuses.
And, you know, there's a huge

702
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,840
difference between Trump one and
Trump two.

703
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,280
I would say that, you know, as
far as the presidencies, I would

704
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,400
say that when he was running
initially, I think a lot more

705
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,520
people were a lot more hesitant
to express their opinions and

706
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,000
perspective.
I know that I certainly was.

707
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,600
I was terrified to tell anyone
that I that I'd supported or

708
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,000
voted for Trump.
And I know that a lot of my

709
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,080
friends felt either like their
grades or social standings would

710
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,200
be at jeopardy if they if they'd
made that known.

711
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:41,880
And then it kind of became like
an act of, and then the club

712
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,360
kind of became an act of
defiance, I think around COVID

713
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,120
time.
And, you know, the transition to

714
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:53,480
the Biden presidency, once Trump
had lost, had, you know,

715
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,000
students had kind of been much
more comfortable expressing

716
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,080
themselves, perhaps because they
now saw themselves as the

717
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,880
underdog and as as opposed to,
you know, this just blatantly

718
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:07,480
obnoxious presence.
But there was, I mean, there,

719
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,600
there was a huge shift, I'm sure
culturally and on campus between

720
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,480
Trump one and Trump 2 over the
last 10 years.

721
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,080
And so I'm curious what your
thoughts on that in general are.

722
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,080
And then what do you think is
the next thing?

723
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:21,200
Because I mean, I think he's
running.

724
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,960
I, you know, he's especially if
the if the midterms turn out the

725
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,600
way that it looks like they
will, it doesn't look like he

726
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:31,600
has much time to do much else.
So what do you think, you know,

727
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,800
is something that's going to
affect college students in the

728
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,360
future now that Trump's time is
kind of up?

729
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,160
Yeah, I.
Love.

730
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,760
It by the way, the only thing I
would like if possible is just

731
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,960
to get an update on the is just
left and right perspectives and

732
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,000
and then what's next?
And you can take it from there

733
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,400
however you want.
OK, it sounds good.

734
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:59,680
So when I was conducting
research for my last book, this

735
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,360
is called the Channels of
Student Activism, How the left

736
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,000
and right are Winning and Losing
on Campus politics in Campus

737
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,040
politics today or some like
terribly long title.

738
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:15,960
Trump had just been elected.
This was in 2017 and this was

739
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,760
the first administration,
obviously.

740
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:24,840
And as you know, he really was
shaking up students on the left

741
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:30,360
and the right and really the
student clubs on the on the

742
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,360
right especially.
So there are a lot of students

743
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:41,640
that we talked with who were
definitely Trump advocates and

744
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,840
they thought of the College
Republicans as being hopelessly

745
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,680
behind the times and really
boring.

746
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,640
And they were kind of going
headlong into into this new

747
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,720
president.
And they, they actually use the

748
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:59,440
words that you use, which is
that the Republican Party needed

749
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,480
shaking up, right?
And so, and this is especially,

750
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,240
I've always been very attentive
not only to what students are

751
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:09,640
doing on campus, but also what
outside organizations are doing

752
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,480
to mobilize students on campus.
And this is right at the time

753
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:21,920
that Turning Point USA was, you
know, getting founded and and

754
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:27,000
getting on campus.
Yes, this was so we were on

755
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,360
campus in 2017 and 2018.
OK, gotcha.

756
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:31,920
I just went to that reference.
OK, gotcha.

757
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,960
Yeah, yeah.
And and students were kind of

758
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:42,240
the conservative students were
self segregating somewhere

759
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,080
gravitating to our college
Republicans and some are going

760
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:53,280
to Turning Point USA.
And they had quite a bit of they

761
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,640
did not respect one another very
much.

762
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,880
They saw themselves as very
different people.

763
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,200
We did, we did.
Well, I won't go into the weeds

764
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:06,720
on that.
So the yeah.

765
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:12,640
And the students who are left of
center, either leftist or

766
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,120
liberal, who I I think it's very
important to differentiate

767
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:20,160
between as well.
Yeah.

768
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:26,280
So when we asked students to
identify themselves, like, you

769
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,280
know, how how do you you know
what?

770
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,920
What?
What do you call yourself?

771
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,080
Students who called themselves
Democrats were very likely to

772
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,880
call themselves liberal.
Students to the left of liberal

773
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:46,080
eschewed the democratic label.
They did not call themselves

774
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,000
liberals.
They did not call themselves

775
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,320
Democrats.
Maybe they were, you know,

776
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,960
democratic socialists.
Maybe they were more anarchic,

777
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,800
but they really, you know, many
of them said that they really

778
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,320
didn't even see a difference
between Republicans and

779
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,800
Democrats.
And among the Liberal Democrats,

780
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,360
that was complete anathema,
right?

781
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:12,000
Like a horse there differences
Republicans, but but but it's

782
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,720
very important to see these
cleavages on both sides of of

783
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:20,400
the political spectrum.
And then libertarians, you asked

784
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,080
about libertarians.
I mean, it was really in this

785
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:27,560
project when I realized you
really can't clump libertarians

786
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:32,160
on the right in the way that
most people do because they are

787
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,240
orthogonal to conservatism in a
bunch of ways.

788
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,160
But they also don't agree with
the left in a bunch of ways.

789
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:44,840
So like really as, as some of
them would say, we don't fit in

790
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,880
at all.
So so we were looking at how

791
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:55,040
they were mobilizing as well.
So in terms of now, I mean, it's

792
00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:02,440
interesting.
I see maybe students on the

793
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:10,840
right being and my, my, I
haven't done research on this.

794
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:16,280
So my experiences more on one
campus alone, but students on

795
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:25,040
the right here at Hopkins are
I've met very few who say that

796
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,360
they are unbridled Trump
supporters.

797
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,480
It's.
Hard to be now if you were

798
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,880
voting for him last year.
Right, right.

799
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:39,080
And yeah, not I mean that like
meaning the fine.

800
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,280
I don't know if I don't know if
that's too politically partial

801
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,320
to say, but it did not see it.
It does not seem as though at

802
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,120
the moment that the agenda that
he found that a lot of people

803
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,240
were excited about were is
getting carried out yet

804
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:53,480
necessarily is what I meant to
say rightly.

805
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,680
Yeah, yeah, I think there are
some Trump supporters on campus.

806
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,640
I know that a few students have
started a Turning Point USA Camp

807
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:08,240
club on campus and so they see
themselves more mega than

808
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:11,200
Republican.
So there are there are a few,

809
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:16,640
but the more politically active
folks I think maybe are seeing

810
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:21,920
life after mega.
And in the same way that those

811
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:27,680
Eastern elite students were
worried about their future, they

812
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:32,000
didn't want to, they don't want
to cast their lot with the Trump

813
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,840
administration.
You know, I'm not exactly sure,

814
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:42,280
but I, I think that's going on.
I'd also say that there's kind

815
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:51,920
of less conversation about the
troubles that students have on

816
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,760
campus now.
And it's more just like full

817
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:59,080
bore anti university rhetoric
when it comes to higher

818
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,680
education.
So in a sense, like students

819
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:08,880
have maybe gotten less important
to the whole left, right

820
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:12,520
discourse.
You know, basically, you know,

821
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:17,040
folks like Chris Ruffo or Max
Eden or JD Vance seeing

822
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:24,880
universities as the enemy and
wish to see higher education

823
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,960
completely kind of obliterated
in its current form.

824
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,760
And so there's less kind of talk
about about what the role of

825
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,080
students is and what's happening
to students.

826
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,520
That's I'm curious.
Oh, man, that's really

827
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:46,480
interesting because I'm, I'm
just curious, do you think that

828
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,560
it that's the case because
students are always interested

829
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,280
or because the students are just
not interested in the two in the

830
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,280
in either party at the moment?
Meaning I think that right now

831
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,520
they just feels like there's
like I think more people are

832
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,680
politically homeless as I would
probably consider myself at the

833
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:08,040
moment that like, hey, I'm not
listen, you know, I'm not

834
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:09,720
marrying myself to either side
of them.

835
00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:11,040
I don't think that either one of
them are right.

836
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,520
I think that you have, whether
you have Obama, whether you have

837
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,120
Bush or whether you have Trump,
whether you have Biden, it's

838
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,440
still hard to buy a house.
It's still hard to, you know,

839
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,560
it's still hard to get a job.
I still have a lot of student

840
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:21,600
debt.
I still have a lot of credit

841
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,840
card debt.
So I think a lot of people were

842
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,080
told that a system was supposed
to help them succeed in a

843
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,200
certain way.
And that if you, if you take

844
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:33,000
these steps, then perhaps there
will be an outcome that is more,

845
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:38,080
that's more favorable to you.
And I think that after X amount

846
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,440
of years of hearing that doesn't
happen, whether that's five

847
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,680
years or 10 years or 15, I don't
really know how long that's been

848
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,240
going on for.
I know that I've been saying

849
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:47,000
that for probably a decade now
where I say, unless you, unless

850
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,720
you're studying something
specifically like engineering or

851
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:52,240
you're willing to, or you, I, I
don't think you should go to

852
00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:53,360
debt.
If you're going to study the

853
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:58,160
arts or the humanities
personally, I think that you

854
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,400
should, if you could find a way
to pay, you pay your way through

855
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:02,440
it and it's something you want
to do because you want to pursue

856
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,200
it.
And I don't, but, but I the

857
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:08,200
opportunities are so small out
of out of college.

858
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,480
And I tried every trick in the
book when as an English major, I

859
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:15,480
would take a business.
I think I used to take the

860
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,680
business school's portfolio case
and put my resume in it and go

861
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,200
to the business fair and give my
resume out to different

862
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:24,920
companies.
And they'd look at it and they'd

863
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:26,960
look at my resume and they'd see
I was an English major and walk

864
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,240
me out, even though I had, even
though I had real estate

865
00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:33,440
experience or I, you know, I was
on the project management side

866
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,160
or I was a broker.
And they just said, listen, we,

867
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,000
you know, it's, we're just not,
you know, we're not interested

868
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,120
and it's not the way we're going
to hire.

869
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:44,120
So I, I, I, so I think that, and
I think that a lot of times

870
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,120
political, you know, politicians
would where are, you know, the

871
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,560
youth vote is obviously
extremely important and the

872
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,480
college vote has been important
throughout American history.

873
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:54,920
You know, whether it's protests,
whether it's rallies, whether

874
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:57,880
it, you know, whatever it may
be, the students make themselves

875
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,040
heard.
You know, they always have.

876
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,160
So I know that they're valuable
for politicians.

877
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,880
I wonder if this is more of an
indictment on the system than it

878
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,080
might be on the students, that
the students are just saying,

879
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:10,760
hey, we just don't want to be
part of your game anymore.

880
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:16,200
Yeah, I I definitely see some
evidence of that.

881
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:22,600
At the same time, you know, if
you look at how college students

882
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:29,960
vote, I mean, you still see more
people voting for Democrats, but

883
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,840
that doesn't mean that they're
deeply invested in the

884
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,200
Democratic way, right?
Like, that could just be a vote

885
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:40,120
against the other person.
And a lot of, you know, a lot of

886
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:44,480
what polarization means these
days is it's not so much that I

887
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,400
like my party, it's that I hate
the other party, right?

888
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,000
That that is affective
polarization that you're very

889
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,840
negative about the other side.
So I think there's probably some

890
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:57,560
of that.
I think there is some holding

891
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:04,160
your nose and voting, but maybe
not being as invested on a

892
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:11,280
day-to-day basis.
And, you know, it could be that.

893
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,480
I mean, there are lots of
reasons why a lot of students

894
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:20,520
have decided to major in STEM.
That's where they think the jobs

895
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,320
are.
That's where they think higher

896
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,920
pay is, you know, all of that
kind of stuff.

897
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:29,160
But it also might be true that
STEM is a deep politicized.

898
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,480
I mean, in some ways it's not
really.

899
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:36,040
I mean, it's very political.
And so far as you know, this

900
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:43,040
administration has made funding
for medical research or

901
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,080
alternative energy or whatever
it is they, you know, that's

902
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,360
become very politicized too.
But it could be that students

903
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:59,480
decide to major in engineering
or, you know, do a pre Med major

904
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:04,000
because those are seen as less
politically salient.

905
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:08,880
I don't know.
I, I, I think it's more about

906
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,280
the job market than anything
else.

907
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:17,520
But you know, when I was talking
with students way back in 2000

908
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:23,920
and six, 2007, the conservative
ones, they said that their

909
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,920
science classes were less
politicized than than certainly,

910
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,120
I don't know.
There's there's probably some

911
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,840
combination.
Yeah, and I, and I, and I get

912
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,600
that by the way, especially
because, for example, you know,

913
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,320
and as a, I'm an English teacher
now it, you know, I'm teaching

914
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:43,640
high school English and a lot of
the, a lot of the material is

915
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:45,120
interpretation.
A lot of the material.

916
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:48,240
You're reading Brave New World,
you're reading, you know, 1984,

917
00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:51,840
you're reading Great Gatsby and
you're saying to yourself, and

918
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,720
you say to yourself, how am I
going to, how am I going to pass

919
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,160
the message?
You know, how am I going to

920
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,760
relate this information over to
the kids in a way that makes the

921
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,680
most it's most relatable to them
that I think is the most

922
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,880
effective and the most valuable.
You know, a lot of times, and,

923
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:09,920
and this is also interesting
because I think politics is

924
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:13,160
almost it has pervaded every
aspect of life.

925
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,560
You could talk about sports and
you can end up talking about

926
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,920
politics and you can end up
talking about, you know, you got

927
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,000
to talk about business, end up
talking about regulation and

928
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,640
politics end up talking about
medication and oh, you know

929
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:24,280
what?
I have AI have a rash into my

930
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:25,520
armpit.
Oh, well, it's politics.

931
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,120
You know, they're like, OK,
well, talk.

932
00:56:27,720 --> 00:56:30,840
About verbal halftime show and
you're talking about politics,

933
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:31,600
right?
Right.

934
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,160
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
And and so, so it's almost

935
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,520
become, you know, I did a
podcast at someone the other

936
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:41,240
week and they had a great line
that politics was Hollywood

937
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:42,760
would for less attractive
people.

938
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,640
And I thought that was very
funny.

939
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:50,240
But if it almost feels, you
know, I think that a lot of this

940
00:56:50,240 --> 00:56:53,920
is show, it is a lot of shows.
And who's willing to speak to

941
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:55,840
the youth?
I think that Momdani winning in

942
00:56:55,840 --> 00:57:00,040
New York, for example, and his
brilliant method of just going

943
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,640
to the communities had flipped
to Trump and saying, Hey, what

944
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,400
are the most important aspects
that caused you guys to change

945
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,000
your minds and vote for Trump?
Because I want to, I want to

946
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,040
help acknowledge that that's all
he had to do.

947
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:14,040
And like, all you had to do is
acknowledge the fact that the

948
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,640
youth and you know, and Trump
and Biden, I think both did this

949
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,360
or both, you know, Trump's doing
this now.

950
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,640
They say the economy is great
when you know, when, when, when

951
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,240
every other indication says
otherwise.

952
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,480
And some people are.
So at least there's a shred of,

953
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,440
of honesty and of the, you know,
I think that people like

954
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,240
breaking the 4th wall if you are
in Hollywood.

955
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,840
And I think that if you are in a
play, there's something fun to

956
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,080
someone looking at the camera
and waking at you and saying,

957
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:39,240
Hey, I got you covered over
here.

958
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:45,640
And you know, and I think that
that's kind of, and it's easy to

959
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:50,240
kind of pop up in college.
I but it also, I think it's just

960
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,040
become part of everyday life for
a lot of people.

961
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,760
Yeah.
And it used to be if you knew

962
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,920
that somebody liked NASCAR, for
example, you wouldn't

963
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:02,160
necessarily know what their
politics were.

964
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:09,120
It used to be that if somebody
liked, you know, name any of a

965
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:15,080
million other cultural things
that we engage in or eat or

966
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:17,200
whatever, you wouldn't
necessarily know what their

967
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,120
politics are.
But now we have so many stacked

968
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,840
identities on top of 1.
You like Taylor Swift, you're a

969
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:29,520
Democrat, you know, you like,
you know, like all of it.

970
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,320
It's just so it is.
It really has infused

971
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:36,920
everything.
And, you know, talk about a way

972
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,720
to keep separate people separate
from one another.

973
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:43,560
When you know the things you
wear, the things you eat, the

974
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:47,240
things you listen to, the car
you drive, the sports you watch,

975
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:53,720
you know all of it is coated
with left, right and jeez,

976
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,320
that's hard.
Much better if we went and

977
00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:01,640
bowled together.
Definitely.

978
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:03,760
I, I mean, you know, it's
interesting because I stopped.

979
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:08,720
I used to be a huge NBA fan and
it did, NBA got too political

980
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:10,120
for me.
And I'm like, you know, I just,

981
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,320
I just, I just want to watch the
people play the game that I love

982
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,000
the most at the highest level.
Like that's, that's, that's what

983
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:17,280
I'm here for.
You know, I want to do that.

984
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:22,160
UFC became the same way UFC, you
know, I mean, obviously you can

985
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:25,280
kind of guess that a martial
martial combat sport, martial

986
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:28,080
arts combat sport like that will
probably attract more of a right

987
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:29,720
leaning audience and a
left-leaning audience.

988
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,760
But Trump became the face of the
UFC while he was while he was

989
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,600
running essentially.
And so, you know, and Obama, you

990
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,400
know, used to pop up to
basketball games all the time

991
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:40,480
and he was personally very
invested in basketball.

992
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:45,720
And so like you and what I think
it's interesting because I'm

993
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:47,840
sure Obama's not saying, hey,
maybe he is, maybe isn't.

994
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,440
I'm sure I would be charitable
and say the man loves

995
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:51,920
basketball.
You know, like the man just

996
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,080
wants to go to a basketball game
and like, you know, in the

997
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,800
league wants to if the league
wants to be in the president of

998
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,000
United States is good graces,
then you're going to adopt his

999
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,880
mentality or his perspective on
things.

1000
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,880
And same thing with Trump.
Now you know with the UFC Where?

1001
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,080
But, but what I give UFC a lot
of credit for is that they're

1002
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:13,240
really great about free speech
and, and people say anything

1003
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:16,400
they want on there.
And Dana, Dana White, who will

1004
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:18,800
get on an interview and be like,
that guy's a moron.

1005
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:20,400
He reserves the right to be a
moron.

1006
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,880
I don't agree with anything he
says, but he reserves the right.

1007
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,040
He won the fight.
The microphones in his face, he

1008
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,560
can say whatever he wants.
And they've been very good about

1009
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:29,760
that.
As opposed to college campuses,

1010
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:32,880
which I have been a little bit
let down by as far as free

1011
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:36,600
speech violations.
Yeah.

1012
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:41,400
And I think it goes back to what
we were saying about change over

1013
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:45,560
time.
I do think that universities are

1014
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:51,520
playing catch up and in the
speech area, I think a lot of

1015
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:56,240
them have looked at what their
practices have been, what speech

1016
01:00:56,240 --> 01:01:01,200
codes have been, what their
positions on institutional

1017
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:06,680
statements, department
statements have been, and it's

1018
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,000
tardy.
You know, it would have been

1019
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,320
better if some of these issues
have been treated more seriously

1020
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,160
sooner.
I don't think it's just lip

1021
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:18,880
service.
I think universities realize

1022
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,240
that they have to do some things
differently.

1023
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:25,640
But also within universities,
there are many different

1024
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:31,040
stakeholders and some people are
not in support of change at this

1025
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:34,840
time.
And they see universities as

1026
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:40,560
being political actors and they
should be left coded political

1027
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:42,400
actors.
So there's tension within

1028
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:46,480
universities too.
But, and, and these are very,

1029
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:51,080
very, very large bureaucratic
structures.

1030
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:55,360
And large bureaucratic
structures don't move very fast.

1031
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:01,640
And so it's going to take some
time for universities to correct

1032
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,520
course in some areas.
I mean, in some areas they're

1033
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,120
absolutely magnificent
institutions, right?

1034
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,960
You've had a great experience.
I had a great experience.

1035
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:18,680
I hope I teach my students well.
We produce the best research in

1036
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:26,640
the world of all kinds, from
humanities to, to to Cancer

1037
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:30,160
Research.
So I hope that people are

1038
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:33,640
patient with the universities.
I hope universities can regain

1039
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:36,560
the trust of the of the
population.

1040
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:41,440
I mean the the amount that
universities have lost trust

1041
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:43,240
from among them.
Yeah, I think that they're going

1042
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:44,800
to have to show that they
they're going to have to earn it

1043
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:45,640
back.
I think.

1044
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:47,920
I mean, I don't think this is
something that you just

1045
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,240
apologized for in general.
I think the feeling is the Yeah,

1046
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:56,760
I think the feeling amongst the
youth is you guys, you guys, you

1047
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:58,880
know, we're we're in a ton of
debt.

1048
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,960
We have a very, you know, we
have very little job market, you

1049
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:03,400
know, very little job
opportunities rather.

1050
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:07,440
I'm sorry and, and every, you
know, and, and, and also I just

1051
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:10,600
and, and I don't know what
happened around COVID time.

1052
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:12,480
I mean, I do know what happened,
but around COVID time,

1053
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,440
institutional faith collapsed,
you know, and, and in general,

1054
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,760
anytime that anyone, I mean,
from now, and it's a shame, but

1055
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,840
I hear Harvard now and I think,
you know, like, I think, you

1056
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,600
know, like I think I, I, you
know, I hear, I hear big

1057
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:27,280
prestigious places and I'm like,
yeah, but come on.

1058
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:30,160
How full, how full of crap could
they be, You know, after, you

1059
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:33,760
know, after X amount of years of
doing X amount and targeting

1060
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:35,960
students so much money and
getting so much federal funding

1061
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,600
on, you know, and you know, and
like you say, these are enormous

1062
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,920
bureaucracies that their
tentacles do really go in so

1063
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,520
many different places.
It's really, you know, it's

1064
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:46,520
really.
They have many, many, many

1065
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,320
different constituencies to
please as well.

1066
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:55,800
Parents, students, trustees,
faculty, administrators,

1067
01:03:55,800 --> 01:04:02,760
funders, donors, the government,
other nations, you know, you're

1068
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:07,200
you just I, I don't know why
anybody would ever take the

1069
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,880
position of university
president.

1070
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,360
That just seems horrible and.
Tough.

1071
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:16,280
Yeah, tough.
Extremely tough.

1072
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:18,840
I want to ask you, I want to, I
want to kind of end on 2

1073
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:20,000
questions.
I want to talk about

1074
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:21,960
libertarians a little bit
because I do.

1075
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:25,800
And I think that the, IT looks
like to me at the moment that

1076
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:29,320
the future of the right at the
moment is a combination of

1077
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,840
libertarian MAGA as opposed to
neoconservatives.

1078
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:37,560
Just based on, I think that
reading, you know, reading

1079
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:40,840
social media, the room and I
appears the last X amount of

1080
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:42,520
years, last three or four years,
I would say.

1081
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:47,240
And folks like Thomas Massie and
the Paul's and they're getting

1082
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,000
a, they're making a lot of
noise, getting a lot of traction

1083
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:54,200
for talking about things that
feel very relevant to everyday

1084
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:55,960
people.
For example, Thomas Massie,

1085
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:58,880
first of all, an absolute hero
with the Epsom stuff.

1086
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:02,560
Him and Khan are absolute
heroes, you know, putting

1087
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:04,840
themselves on the line.
And it's one of the most

1088
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:06,960
dangerous positions that they
could possibly put themselves

1089
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:08,680
into some of the most dangerous
people in the world.

1090
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:11,880
So they deserve all the credit
in the world's real Khanna and

1091
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:13,920
Thomas Massie.
But even the Paul's talking

1092
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,640
about, hey, what's the spend?
How as Massey as he ever sees

1093
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:19,160
his invention that he has that
just constantly keeps track of

1094
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:20,880
the national deficit in real
time.

1095
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:24,440
And and he walks around every
time he goes to Washington, he

1096
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,240
wears this pin that keeps track
of the national deficit and says

1097
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:29,040
this is how much money we're
spending.

1098
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:31,760
This is how hard of a time we
are going to have paying things

1099
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:33,920
back.
And what the future of our

1100
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:37,160
student, of our students and
people's economic possibilities

1101
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:40,080
are, is going down into the
gutter with every number that

1102
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,040
this goes up again.
I didn't realize that he was

1103
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:49,320
libertarian leaning.
I know him more as an anti Trump

1104
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,200
Republican.
I don't know what his voting

1105
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:53,680
record is.
I mean, he's certainly been out

1106
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:56,840
on the front lines on the
Epstein case and some of the

1107
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,280
other, you know, tariffs and
things of that sort.

1108
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:01,520
Yeah.
So I think he would call himself

1109
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:04,440
part of the libertarian right.
I understand that there was a

1110
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:10,160
libertarian left and right,
which is kind of, I mean, it's

1111
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,840
almost like moderates is what I,
it's like my, I think that a lot

1112
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:14,920
of people that call themselves
libertarian left or right or

1113
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:17,640
really just some of the people
that we say that we said kind of

1114
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:19,960
fell out between the political
camps and don't know what to

1115
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,120
call themselves now.
But what I'm curious about is

1116
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:25,480
you think that there's any
chance of a third party.

1117
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,480
You think the parties will just
morph from being, you know, 1,

1118
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:31,000
you know, two parties, one of
them being primarily

1119
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:33,520
neoconservative and, you know,
liberal the way that, you know,

1120
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:37,360
we used to in the early 2000s,
to being whatever it is today.

1121
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:40,080
And do you think or do you think
it's going to change or you

1122
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:41,240
think that there's room for a
third party?

1123
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:47,520
Well, I mean, if you take the
historical view, it seems like

1124
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:50,640
the US is very allergic to 3rd
party.

1125
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,680
So that's tough.
And currently the Libertarian

1126
01:06:54,680 --> 01:07:01,440
Party is a mass, you know, we, I
did research with Libertarian

1127
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:04,800
scholars, so not folks in the
Libertarian Party.

1128
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:07,080
I actually know somebody who's
very good who studied the

1129
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:09,960
Libertarian Party in New
Hampshire and Los Angeles.

1130
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:11,400
If you want to, yeah.
I would love to.

1131
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:15,400
I would.
Love to he's a postdoc at USC,

1132
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:17,120
University of Southern
California.

1133
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:20,440
Sure, but so I know less about
the party.

1134
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:25,520
Certainly the scholars I talked
with by and large just want to

1135
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:29,600
keep as much distance between
themselves and the Libertarian

1136
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:35,040
Party, which actually varying
oddly and counter intuitively

1137
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:40,120
made a big maggot kind of turn
right with what is called the

1138
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:44,080
Mises Institute or not the Mises
Institute, the Mises caucus

1139
01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:49,080
within the party.
And they just became even less

1140
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:52,600
attractive, I think to most
people.

1141
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:58,040
So if a third party emerges,
it's probably not going to be

1142
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:01,200
from the foundations of the
Libertarian Party per SE.

1143
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:06,480
But you know, some of these some
of the issues that libertarians

1144
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:13,720
support open borders, very not
mega right, but also not not

1145
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:22,600
Democratic either, you know, gun
rights, not democratic, more

1146
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:26,800
conservative.
No doubt you've heard the phrase

1147
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:32,200
like I am economically
conservative and socially

1148
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:34,520
liberal.
And that's where a lot of the

1149
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:37,040
libertarian students we talked
with.

1150
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:41,479
So if somebody can find that
lane, there probably are a lot

1151
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:45,560
of people out there who would
support candidates like that.

1152
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:54,160
And it really depends how much
the party, the party bosses or

1153
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:58,880
the party leaders are able to
tamp down.

1154
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:02,920
But it would seem to me like
there's been talk, especially

1155
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:12,640
among Democrats, to, to like,
widen the tent more and to not

1156
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:17,520
have the social issues that so
many people in the party have

1157
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:22,000
been kind of obsessed with OK,
for the last number of years.

1158
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,160
You saw that.
I think it's a lot of clip on

1159
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:25,960
that.
Right, right.

1160
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:28,080
And I think there's a lot, I
think that I think that there

1161
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:31,120
was also a very visceral
reaction to because I mean,

1162
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:35,479
this, it was kind of building
since probably the late 2002

1163
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:39,359
thousand, 2010 to 12 I imagine
is really when what people would

1164
01:09:39,359 --> 01:09:43,240
call woke kind of started, you
know, gaining power or getting

1165
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:49,120
traction, right?
10 years of a lifespan, I think.

1166
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:52,520
And it still exists, but I think
in a much more docile way than

1167
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:55,360
maybe 5 or 6 years ago.
Yeah.

1168
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:59,760
And that's, you know, that's
some of the contentiousness

1169
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:03,480
within universities as well as,
you know, folks really did have

1170
01:10:03,480 --> 01:10:10,160
a foothold in universities and
that's dissipating some, but

1171
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:12,520
there's some people who are
still very, very, very committed

1172
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:15,360
to it.
So you get a lot of tensions

1173
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:19,480
within these structures, whether
it's a political party or a

1174
01:10:19,480 --> 01:10:24,920
university, about which
direction to move in the future.

1175
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:29,480
Probably very interesting to see
how young people get involved in

1176
01:10:29,480 --> 01:10:34,040
this.
And I'm also very curious as to

1177
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:40,040
how college educated and people
without a college education work

1178
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:44,160
together and if there can be a
generational cohort rather than

1179
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:47,360
just like a college educated
cohort and a non college

1180
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:53,440
educated cohort.
And if those issues can in some

1181
01:10:53,440 --> 01:10:56,000
way be coordinated.
I think that's a very strong and

1182
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:59,480
very strong contingency.
Well, I think that there are a

1183
01:10:59,480 --> 01:11:03,040
lot of issues that both I think
that and this, that was a great

1184
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:05,200
way to describe it.
Because one thing that I did

1185
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:09,440
notice was that I felt growing
up at least that a lot of PA lot

1186
01:11:09,440 --> 01:11:14,080
of political divide was based on
having the same premise and

1187
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:16,040
different approaches to how to
solve it.

1188
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:19,040
And I think that that changed
for a little while throughout 10

1189
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:23,080
years that changed 1012 years.
We couldn't even agree on what

1190
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:24,840
the same problems in the country
were.

1191
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:26,920
You know, like the same things
are trying to resolve and the

1192
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:30,920
same things are trying to fix.
I think now we know that whole,

1193
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,000
you know, housing is an enormous
issue that the left and the

1194
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:34,240
right are trying to work
together.

1195
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:37,080
We see mom Donnie working with
Trump on that, you know, meeting

1196
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:39,200
with him a bunch of times, even
though he's a self-proclaimed

1197
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:41,760
democratic socialist and calls
Trump a fascist, you know,

1198
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:43,800
pretty much his face.
He's like, you know what?

1199
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:47,200
We still need to live somewhere
like, you know, it's, it's a

1200
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:49,240
luxury to be able to call each
other these terms, you know,

1201
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:54,440
and, and then obviously I got
what I mentioned with Thomas

1202
01:11:54,440 --> 01:11:56,560
Massie, the economic feasibility
in the workforce.

1203
01:11:56,800 --> 01:11:59,560
So I think that I hope that what
you're saying is correct in the

1204
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:03,640
sense that people will kind of
say, hey, you know, that's why I

1205
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:05,680
think that libertarian, I think
that the right will probably be

1206
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:07,640
a little bit more libertarian
leaning and the left will

1207
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:11,120
probably look a little bit more
democratic socialist within the

1208
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:14,400
next 5-10 years.
Just because that kind of gets

1209
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:17,800
us back still to the same kind
of questions where we can all

1210
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:19,760
agree the issue exists in the
same way.

1211
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,920
And then the answer on how to
deal with it is going to just be

1212
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:27,640
a matter of opinion.
It's such a nice vision to think

1213
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:32,120
about people working on
something in meaningful ways.

1214
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:35,720
I I sure hope you're right.
Me too, me too.

1215
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:37,640
Last quick question for you.
I'm sorry.

1216
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:39,320
And then I'll let you go.
Thank you so much.

1217
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:43,080
This has been so much fun.
You mentioned Turning Point as

1218
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:46,720
an outside influence for
conservatives on campus.

1219
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:50,400
Can you mention a couple of on
either end of the on either end

1220
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:53,880
of the aisle of big institutions
that do have an impact on

1221
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:57,280
college students just for people
to know about, because I do.

1222
01:12:57,440 --> 01:12:59,560
I do know about Turning Point,
but I don't know about a lot of

1223
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:03,520
other in general, I think that
companies are these, these

1224
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:07,360
organizations tend to be pretty
in the background and subtle

1225
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:11,520
about their influence.
So maybe a couple of a couple of

1226
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:14,280
different ones on either side.
Yeah, absolutely.

1227
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:18,840
It's a wonderful question.
So on the right, there are many

1228
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:23,320
more organizations and they
differentiate among themselves.

1229
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:29,560
So Turning Point is not the
first organization that really

1230
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:32,960
occupied that niche.
There are other organizations

1231
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:36,400
like, you know, Young America's
Foundation, the Leadership

1232
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:42,960
Institute, which we're doing
some similar kind of training in

1233
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:47,640
the activist mentality, training
people to enter into politics in

1234
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:51,160
various ways.
And then Turning Point arrived

1235
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:54,960
on the scene and Charlie Kirk
was able to amass so many

1236
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:57,480
resources and Turning Point just
8.

1237
01:13:57,480 --> 01:14:00,760
These other organizations launch
basically.

1238
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:11,200
So in terms of more like culture
issues, anti left, those are the

1239
01:14:11,200 --> 01:14:14,360
organizations I'd named Turning
Point Leadership Institute,

1240
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:16,720
Young America's foundation.
I don't know how much they're

1241
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:19,920
around these days.
Prager you is around making

1242
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:25,240
videos in this in this area.
Hire some of the same people,

1243
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:30,000
have some conferences and then
there's kind of establishment,

1244
01:14:30,440 --> 01:14:36,400
right, not mega.
And there's some organizations

1245
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:39,840
like the American Enterprise
Institute, for example, that

1246
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:45,560
hosts summer programs,
conferences, week long programs

1247
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:49,600
for students who want to learn
about conservatism, more

1248
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:56,960
intellectual conservatism.
And they also have student clubs

1249
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:59,560
on campus.
I can't remember exactly what

1250
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:03,240
they're called, but they that
people can look that up.

1251
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:08,440
And then on the left, one of the
things that I and my co-author

1252
01:15:08,440 --> 01:15:15,400
Jeff Kidder discovered is that
students left of center are left

1253
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:18,800
much more to their own devices
on campus.

1254
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:22,600
So they look to their colleges
and universities for

1255
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:28,080
mobilization opportunities,
multicultural centers, even

1256
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:32,800
academic disciplines, but there
aren't things outside

1257
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:37,000
organizations that really
mobilize them, not nearly to the

1258
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:41,120
same tune in terms of money or
summer programs or conferences

1259
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:44,600
or whatnot.
And so one of the things that we

1260
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:48,040
found as a result of that is
that students on the left really

1261
01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:51,200
don't have the same kind of
conveyor belt from their college

1262
01:15:51,200 --> 01:15:55,120
activism into the world of
politics as the right leaning

1263
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:56,920
students do.
Interesting.

1264
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:00,520
They're much less supported,
they're more insular, it's more

1265
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:04,160
inward looking.
And I would love to see some

1266
01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:10,040
progressive organizations take a
lesson out of the rights

1267
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:14,200
playbook just to try to create
some more opportunities for

1268
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:17,080
students to get involved in
politics, because those could be

1269
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:20,960
really good potential leaders in
the future.

1270
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:25,520
And, and it would be absolutely
wonderful if this could happen,

1271
01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:32,280
you know, in the moderate area
and or independent area and in

1272
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:35,640
the libertarian space as well.
I think students really do need

1273
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:39,400
those kind of stepping stones
from their political commitments

1274
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:42,560
in college to out into the labor
force.

1275
01:16:43,320 --> 01:16:45,240
Right.
Do you think is a part?

1276
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:48,840
I don't know, I'm just asking,
is it possible that there's not

1277
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:52,480
as many, I guess, external
organizations the way you're

1278
01:16:52,480 --> 01:16:55,080
putting it for left-leaning
students?

1279
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:59,960
Because a lot of the
universities offer programs that

1280
01:16:59,960 --> 01:17:02,800
tend to, you know, have
professors or faculty offer

1281
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:04,880
programs.
It's already kind of, you know,

1282
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:08,280
in that, in that world for them.
And so they, they, they don't

1283
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:11,160
feel necessary.
So if I was an organization that

1284
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:14,560
wants to go to University of
Miami and influence students to

1285
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:19,320
become lefties, I wouldn't, I
wouldn't need to spend, you

1286
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:21,200
know, too much time and money
doing that.

1287
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:23,480
I imagine that a lot of a big
percentage of the student

1288
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:25,920
population or the OR the faculty
is already there.

1289
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,400
So I wouldn't necessarily even
get my money there, right?

1290
01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:30,840
Yeah.
So we thought about that quite a

1291
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:33,680
bit.
That was a hypothesis that we

1292
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:37,480
were working with as well.
I think that's true.

1293
01:17:37,480 --> 01:17:41,680
I think progressive
organizations have felt

1294
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:44,200
complacent about it.
Like the kids are doing all

1295
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:48,320
right in college, so why should
we spend any of our hard earned

1296
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:53,520
treasure on them?
The problem that I see is that

1297
01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:58,400
it means that students, when
they're looking to graduate and

1298
01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:04,520
enter political or social jobs,
they don't have that leg up that

1299
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:07,600
students on the right do.
They don't have that immediate

1300
01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:14,200
connection between their college
activism and, you know, in the

1301
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:21,200
world of actual politics.
And I would also say that this

1302
01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:24,080
means that their politics
themselves when they're on

1303
01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:29,680
campus can be very campus
oriented and.

1304
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:32,720
Good point.
Does it testing against?

1305
01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:35,000
Yeah.
The people that they're

1306
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:38,960
protesting against are actually
often times university leaders

1307
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:43,560
and that, that just seems like
insular, right and.

1308
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:46,480
Really good point.
And it doesn't get them, you

1309
01:18:46,480 --> 01:18:50,880
know, off their trajectory of
being in the college Malia.

1310
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:56,000
And I think the more we can get
people kind of focusing on

1311
01:18:56,360 --> 01:19:00,280
whatever social issue or social
problem they think needs

1312
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:04,680
addressing, but to get that
outside the walls, university is

1313
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:06,800
really important.
It's like teaching my, it's

1314
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:10,040
like, it's, it's like teaching a
kid to ride a bike on training

1315
01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:12,680
wheels as opposed to teaching
them how to wiggle and waggle on

1316
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:14,760
two wheels 1st.
And like you'll eventually get

1317
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:16,520
there and when you do, you're
good to go.

1318
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:18,240
But if you're learning on
training wheels, you're going to

1319
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:20,600
have to adjust to taking those
wheels off and then having to

1320
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:21,800
deal with that eventually
anyway.

1321
01:19:23,040 --> 01:19:24,880
Really just go down a couple
times.

1322
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:26,520
That's right.
That's it.

1323
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:29,440
By the way, Scrapes, not breaks,
is what I've read.

1324
01:19:29,440 --> 01:19:31,440
There's a policy, you know, you
got to bruise yourself up a

1325
01:19:31,440 --> 01:19:32,520
little bit.
As long as you don't break

1326
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:34,400
anything, it's OK.
That's right.

1327
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:38,120
You have to give people real
experiences out in the world so

1328
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:46,280
that you know, so that people on
the left are not just looking at

1329
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:50,080
university leaders to fix
problems that aren't university

1330
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:53,640
leaders problems to fix.
Right, that too.

1331
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:55,440
That's that's also a wonderful
point.

1332
01:19:56,880 --> 01:19:58,880
Yeah.
Yeah, certainly.

1333
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:03,520
Amy, this has been so much fun.
I loved picking at your brain

1334
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:07,640
for all this stuff and, and your
insight has been really, really.

1335
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:11,040
A lot of fun, very educational
and really thought provoking.

1336
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:13,480
You give me a lot to think
about, definitely.

1337
01:20:13,480 --> 01:20:16,040
So thank you so much for the
time and I hope to be in touch

1338
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:19,200
and this is really, really
wonderful.

1339
01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:21,160
Thank you.
Well, thank you for the

1340
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:24,840
opportunity to talk with you.
You asked fabulous questions and

1341
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:27,120
pushed me to think harder about
some of the things I thought I

1342
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:30,400
knew, so I hope we can stay in
touch.

1343
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:32,440
Yes, thank you so much.
All right, bye everyone.

1344
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:33,960
Take.
Care.