#150: Alan Paul / Allman Brothers History / Living in China / Playin in the Band

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

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We are live with musician,
writer, journalist and podcaster

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Alan Paul.
Welcome.

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What's going on?
I'm so happy to have you here.

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Yeah, happy to be here.
Thanks for having me.

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You forgot to say bomb.
Oh man.

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Oh yes, of course.
I apologize and I'm so excited

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to talk about so many things.
You are the Allman's Brothers

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Authority, I would say, and I'm
sure that I hope you agree.

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And I've kind of wanted to talk
about for my own sake a little

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bit because I'm pretty familiar
with a lot of their history.

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But I'm sure.
But you're, you know, you really

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know the, you really know the,
the depths and get into the

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weeds of things.
And I would love to do that.

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I love learning, you know, the
lore and the depths of the

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background of, of, of my
favorite bands.

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And, and then you had quite a
reputation and career in China

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and I want to talk to you about
China and I want to talk to you

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about journalism.
So there's a bunch of places I

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want to I want to go to.
But if so, if some, if you're

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just introducing someone to The
Allman Brothers Band, what are

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you?
How are you describing it to

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them?
And what are you telling them?

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Is the like the foundation of
the spirit behind the band?

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I'm telling that I'm doing open
their wallet and buy my books.

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No kidding.
Well, The Allman Brothers for me

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are the the Great American band.
You know, you can certainly make

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a strong argument for the
Grateful Dead and and some of

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the same things apply to them.
I just for my own and, and I

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wouldn't really argue with
anyone who, who, who said that

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and the Grateful Dead probably
have had a deeper cultural

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impact in a lot of ways, but
both of them it so, so at that

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point it's a matter of taste and
I just prefer the The Allman

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Brothers.
I'm, I'm more of a Blues guy,

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you know, I listen to a lot of
Blues and jazz and The Allman

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Brothers are that intersection
where they brought Blues and

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jazz and improvisational music
and they, they had more of a

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swing than the Dead and really
more than any rock bands.

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And that was in part, well, it
was because of all of them.

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I mean, this, the six original
members, each of them was

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responsible for it.
But it's, it's that music that

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for me hits me in my, you know,
I feel like music and art you

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can appreciate with your, your
mind, you know, could be

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intellectually satisfying,
cerebral.

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It can be emotionally
satisfying, like in your heart,

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and it can be sort of each in
the gut or you, you know, like,

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like in this sort of very
visceral way.

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And for me, The Allman Brothers
touched all of those at the same

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time.
And I don't find that much music

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that engages all three of those
erogenous zones, so to speak,

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you know, intellectually
fulfilling, emotionally

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fulfilling and has that
guttural, you know, thing that

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that people love about
rock'n'roll.

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And, and so that, that that's
what does it for me.

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But they also the, the other
thing about them is that they

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were so diverse and highlighted
by the fact that they had two

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singer songwriters who were
really great and very different,

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and Greg Allman and Dickie
Betts.

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And so because each of them in
their own right, had they never

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been in The Allman Brothers,
probably could have had pretty,

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I'm sure, you know, successful
solo careers and they would have

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been quite different solo
careers, you know, and then

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bringing the two of them
together with that incredible

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band is what what makes them so
unique.

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So yeah, it's the breadth and
the depth of their music.

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Yeah, and what's really cool
about The Allman Brothers,

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similar to the Dead, is that,
and I want to talk a little bit

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about some of the history, but
that they've gone through a lot

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of changes in the band, like you
mentioned, you know, and and,

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you know, famously, but again,
if you don't know anything about

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this, there's they suffered 2
found, you know, foundational

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and monumental deaths in 7172.
Their break, I think their first

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album was in 69 or 68, So just a
couple of years after they, you

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know, they started and their
music like you can listen to

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Allman Brothers show from, you
know, the Fillmore East and 70

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in the 70s and get one type of
style.

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And then you can go back to the
80s.

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You know, in the dreams, the
whole dreams album in the whole

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that whole that whole era.
And you kind of get something

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else.
And then, and then you get the

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2000s where you get Warren
Haynes and Derek Trucks and you

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get JMO and you get, and you get
like, I mean, the 2003 and 2008

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tours in particular.
I know, I know I've listened to

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a bunch of the concerts from and
I mean, they're just as as far

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as the music and as far as the,
the, the, the song choice and

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the, and the variety in the set
lists.

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It just felt really, really
sophisticated.

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So and the Dead had, you know,
had a very similar, had a very

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similar repertoire in this in
the sense that, you know, as

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band members would come and go
and sometimes come and go from

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this world, you know, that their
their style would change.

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And Pig Pen died.
They missed a lot of that, you

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know, a lot of that, those great
Blues numbers that that that,

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that kind of just went to the
wayside and they became a little

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bit more country oriented.
So, so I don't know what you

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think about that, but to me
that's kind of what stands out

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also.
And for all these bands, there

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are member there are fans who,
you know, will say it was never

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the real band after.
So you know, he had some old

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dead heads and say I never
listened to them after pig band.

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You know, that was that was what
I loved.

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And certainly Allman Brothers
fans.

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There's a contingent of I never
listened to them after Dwayne

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and and you could take you know,
and I understand that, but I

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think ultimately it's a mistake.
I mean, certainly there are

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bands we lose a member and never
are able to successfully move on

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and replace it.
I don't think that's led.

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Zeppelin comes to mind.
Yeah, well, they didn't even

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try, right.
They, yeah, they, they, they

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made that decision.
But yeah, I mean, when when Pig

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Pen died and they added Keith
and they went in a very

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different direction and then
opened up this whole other area

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that that had a sort of jazz
tinge, almost prog, rocky

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approach.
And then you had with the All

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Brothers.
I mean, after Dwayne, I know

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that for people there, including
some of the band's management,

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to some extent, even the band,
it seemed impossible that they

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would continue.
They didn't know exactly how

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because Dickie Betts was such a
great guitar player and he rose

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to the fore, but he never was a
leader.

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And Greg was the obvious person
to be the leader because of the

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name.
But Greg was a very introverted

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person who was also sort of a
mess after Dwayne died.

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So musically, it ended up.
In what sense?

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In what sense was he a mess?
Is that what you mean?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, so even before Dwayne

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died, I mean, Greg was
struggling with substance abuse

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issues always, you know, with,
with alcohol and with opioid,

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heroin specifically.
I mean, he just did everything,

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cocaine, a lot of cocaine.
And when Dwayne died, he went

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into a depression.
I mean, Dwayne was not only his

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brother, he was only a year
older, but he was really the

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father figure.
Their father had been murdered

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when they were, I think, two and
three or three and four years

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old.
So they grew up without a

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father.
Their mother never remarried.

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And Dwayne, by virtue of his
personality, which was

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incredibly aggressive, take
charge, you know, became the man

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of the house at basically age 4
or five.

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And he always called Greg babe,
bro much for a baby brother.

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And I think Greg pretty much did
what what Dwayne said.

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And you know, when The Allman
Brothers Band first form before

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they were The Allman Brothers
Band, Greg was the last member

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in.
And I get different stories from

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different people, but I, I, I
think they both had a little bit

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of hesitation about being in a
band together, which they had

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just, you know, they had done
for years when they from when

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they were teenagers until that
point.

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I'm actually in a band called
the Hourglass, which had gone

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out to LA and ended sort of
badly.

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And Dwayne split and they barely
spoke for about 6 months.

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Greg was a little bitter about
Dwayne bit of abandoning him out

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there and pick up being under
his thumb a little bit, I think,

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and Dwayne felt that Gregg was a
little unreliable.

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Anyhow, they they were they they
it was clear and and some some

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of the guys have always said
that they had to bug Dwayne call

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Gregg because they you know,
they all knew what a great

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singer and songwriter.
Well, what a great singer was.

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His songwriting was just really
beginning.

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Jamal, who was the first member
that Dwayne hired, is insistent

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that Greg.
Dwayne told him from the start,

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I'm going to put this band
together and then get my

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brother.
Greg's the only one who can sing

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in the band I'm thinking of.
So Jamo tends to be really

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reliable.
So I'm going with Jamo.

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So I think Dwayne always planned
on having Greg in the band.

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But yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's
a unique situation, a unique

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dynamic.
And their ability to keep adding

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members, as you said, is, is is
also unique.

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And after Dwayne passed away,
you know, they played as just a

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five man band for a year.
And I think they did a

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remarkably good job.
I don't like listening to those

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shows that much.
I I find them a little sad.

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You can hear the holes, but
would you listen to it with an

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open mind?
I think it's, it's quite

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remarkable what they pulled off.
And then when Barry died just

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pretty much exactly a year
later, there went a similar

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situation and they added Lamar
Williams, who was Jamie's best

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friend from growing up and
continued to roll.

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And they became a bit different.
And I should, I forgot to

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mention before that they had
finally sort of replaced Dwayne,

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so to speak, with Chuck Lavelle.
So they replaced him with

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another great soloist, but on
piano and set a guitar, which

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was a really way to handle that.
It's like you're literally not

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asking anyone to come in and
play Dwayne's Parks.

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You're just looking for another
instrumentalist to fill out the

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sound, add to the power.
And what eventually happened is

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Lamar and Chuck had a real jazz
vibe and a sort of swingy thing.

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And so it changed the direction
quite a bit.

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And at times Dickie was would
get a little upset about how

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jazzy it got.
You know, he used to make fun of

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of Chuck and column Chopin and
Rachmaninoff and stuff like

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that.
But I think I think it it was

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great and the music really
stands up if you listen to the

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live shows from 1973 and and
sometime since 74 started to get

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a little a little shaky in
there.

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But J MO, Lamar and Chuck
developed this like

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synchronicity with each other
that eventually spun off when

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the band broke up to become the
band C level, which was, you

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know, over at least with a jazz
influence, sort of fusion, a

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instrumental, mostly music.
It's really cool to hear how how

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how you could, you know, you
look for a good player to kind

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of fit in this band, this noise,
this sound that you guys have,

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you know, the very subjective,
personalized sound that you guys

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have made and you kind of want
them to fill in.

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But you're also inviting in
someone else with a lot of other

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influences, like you said, and
it's going to inevitably have an

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impact on the music, you know,
And I, and I think that that

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that the, that the audiences can
be, or the fans could be the

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most challenging people to
persuade, you know, to, to, to,

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to change their minds about,
about the sound, You know,

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because we're committed to The
Allman Brothers that we know and

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that we love.
And, you know, and even though

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you got this new sound and
you're playing the same songs,

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it sounds like you're, you're,
you know, like you're, you're,

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you're the, the, the roots are
coming from different places.

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You know, that's.
That's definitely true, but

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counterfactual that is that
right after that New Dan came

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together after Dwayne had passed
away.

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There's one they had Peach.
Yes.

221
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,000
Well, you'd teach.
Then the next album, Brothers

222
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,800
and Sisters, by far the biggest
album ever, and they had their

223
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,440
first hit was Ramblin Man.
And so I guess they developed a

224
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,320
lot of new fans.
But yeah, it it, you know, to go

225
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,480
back to what you said at the
very beginning, it, it is sort

226
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,320
of stunning to think about that
Dwayne really was only a member

227
00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,400
of The Allman Brothers Man for 2
1/2 years.

228
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,600
And, you know, the band
eventually lasted 45 years, you

229
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,760
know, until 2014.
And I've written some stuff

230
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,040
about it that and I've re shared
it and I will again on my sub

231
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,440
SAC, which is called low down
and dirty.

232
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,880
But you know, that the extent to
which Dwayne was still sort of

233
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,040
the driving force of the band
until the end, 45 years later,

234
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,840
42 years after he had died, 43
years after he had died, really

235
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,240
quite remarkable like that.
He could have set that up,

236
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,280
especially that he because he
didn't sing and he didn't really

237
00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,920
write songs.
And that's really unusual for

238
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:06,040
for an instrumentalist to have
that much impact on a band from

239
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,880
a not front person perspective.
But I think until the very, very

240
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,200
end, there was an element of the
band that when there was a

241
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,840
decision that had to be made, it
was still sort of what would

242
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,360
Dwayne do, you know?
Which I think is pretty cool.

243
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:22,840
Yeah, he was dead.
He was like the the guiding

244
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:24,960
spirit of the band.
It's a cool concept.

245
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,080
It's a really cool concept.
I and what's I mean, like you

246
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,560
said, I mean, people don't like
to think about this, but I think

247
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,000
Deading Company has been playing
almost as almost as long.

248
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,840
No, I guess it's not really
true, but Deading Company's been

249
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:44,560
going on for what, since.
Since Jerry died in 95 till till

250
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:49,640
now.
I mean, there were there were

251
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,160
all kinds of other things what
happened with with various

252
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,280
members of the Grateful Dead.
I mean, but it what?

253
00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,920
But it wasn't dead and company
until 2116 or something like

254
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,160
that.
So it was really.

255
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:05,840
And then you know that, OK.
Gotcha.

256
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,520
Yeah, and that.
Ended with Bobby's passing,

257
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,800
which is, you know, still sort
of shocking because he was, he

258
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:19,560
was so everywhere that it's hard
to believe he's not not with us

259
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,480
anymore.
Yeah, I've talked to a lot of

260
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,240
people about it.
I've talked to a lot of people

261
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,160
about it since since he'd
passed.

262
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,760
And what's funny is that they
almost the universal reaction

263
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,400
from the dead fans have been
like like they're sad that he's

264
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:35,720
gone.
They're kind of in shock and

265
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,720
they're like, but we not like
like there, there was an

266
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,680
immediate, there's almost like a
sense, like there wasn't a sense

267
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,080
of tragedy.
There's a sense of more

268
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,960
celebration of his life when he
died, shocked that it happened,

269
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,520
but more celebration than I
think type of tragedy that that

270
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,280
so many of our favorite, you
know, musicians kind of we, we

271
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,680
associate with the with the way
that they that they leave this

272
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,520
world.
Yeah, well, Bob, who I, you

273
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,240
know, interviewed quite a quite
a few times and I didn't have

274
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,360
like an same kind of in depth
relationship with him that to do

275
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,800
with some of these guys in The
Allman Brothers.

276
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,120
But well, you know, I knew Bob
pretty well and was around him a

277
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:16,160
fair amount.
And he was very matter of fact

278
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,800
in the way he talked about death
in a way that always struck me.

279
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,280
So he would talk about Jerry.
He would say when Jerry checked

280
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,280
out, you know what I'd say when
Jerry left this mortal coil,

281
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,880
those were the two phrases he
used.

282
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,800
But he said that several times,
you know, when I was

283
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,440
interviewing him, he's like,
well, after Jerry checked out

284
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,880
and the first time I heard him
say that it was a little bit

285
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,560
striking because you're like,
wow, you know, that that that

286
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,960
sounds almost.
But I think that he really

287
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,840
believed in an afterlife and
left this mortal coil.

288
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,320
To me, it was his way of saying,
you know, then moving on to the

289
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,760
immortal coil.
That's how I heard it.

290
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,360
And so that's what I thought of
right away when I, when I heard,

291
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,880
I was shocked because I, I had
heard rumors that he was sick,

292
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,040
but I, I didn't, I didn't know
any details at all.

293
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:07,800
I don't think anyone did as far
as I know.

294
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:12,920
And so I, yeah, I wouldn't have
been shocked to hear that he was

295
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,560
ill, but to hear that he was
suddenly gone was shocking.

296
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,040
And then I, I thought about
that.

297
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,520
And I think that the morning
that people went through

298
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:24,079
certainly was for him as a
person, but it was also for the

299
00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:30,720
reality that this is is done and
the music went forever.

300
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,320
And you know, there's great
bands like Joe Russo's almost

301
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:39,960
dead and dark star and the fact
that Phil and Bobby and you

302
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,040
know, they played with so many
people.

303
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,880
So you have Otil was in denim
company for years doing Otil and

304
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,480
president.
He'll he'll forever have a piece

305
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,600
of that flag.
I imagine John Mayer will

306
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,440
eventually do something Dead
related.

307
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,440
And then Graham Lashville, son
has been very active and slow.

308
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,160
So, so many people.
Yeah, he was great.

309
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:03,920
Yeah.
And, And so those guys ran like

310
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:08,240
a Grateful Dead university for
the last like, decade or 20

311
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,200
years or something That that's
how I look at it.

312
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,120
And so they, they, they minted a
lot of PhDs in that music.

313
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:17,680
And so certainly the music's not
going anywhere, but, you know,

314
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,560
Dead and company wasn't the
Grateful Dead, but it was a

315
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:28,120
strong echo of it, I guess.
And, and having Bobby up there

316
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,240
was a huge part of that.
And so you could you could feel

317
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,000
like you're at a Dead show.
And I don't think there'll ever

318
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,080
be anything again played like
that.

319
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:43,040
So, you know, I feel, I wish, I
wish I'd gotten to see Dwayne.

320
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,320
I'm happy I got to see Jerry
and, and, you know, go to quite

321
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,200
a few shows and, and live in the
world where, where these guys

322
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,160
did and see Greg, you know, 100
times or whatever the heck I

323
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,960
saw.
And, you know, it's, it's, it's,

324
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,080
I feel I feel lucky to have had
these experiences and, you know,

325
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,320
not just with them, but
certainly very much including

326
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,000
them.
But you are lucky, I mean, and

327
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,800
you know what, you're also lucky
because I know that I, I bet

328
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,200
that in 20 years from now, you
know, someone's going to say to

329
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,440
you, you know, you went to
Tedeschi trucks at the Beacon,

330
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,800
you went to Billy Strings, you
know, in Newark.

331
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,600
Like, what was that like, you
know, in 30-40, fifty years from

332
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,440
now?
And I listen like, you know, at

333
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,360
the end of the day, I thank God.
I think that the musical torch

334
00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:32,360
that they, I, I for many years I
thought that, you know, great

335
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:34,000
music was gone.
It turns out I just didn't know

336
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,240
where to look.
And it was really, you know, and

337
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:37,840
for a couple of years it was
really sad.

338
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,240
And then I've discovered a whole
new world of just incredible,

339
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,880
incredible music and cross
genres.

340
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,800
And one thing I actually didn't
want to ask before we talk about

341
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:53,720
China a little bit was a lot of
the music scene in this late

342
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:58,440
60s, early 70s did revolve
around the coasts like San

343
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:03,480
Francisco, CA, Los Angeles and
the whole Laurel Laurel Canyon

344
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,080
scene, New York.
What were the Altman?

345
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:08,560
What were The Allman Brothers
doing?

346
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,440
Where were they geographically?
What was going on culturally

347
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,320
that that really like, because
you know that the that the dead

348
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,280
came from obviously psychedelia
and like Bob Dylan came from

349
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:22,440
this whole folk beat scene.
The Allman Brothers have, you

350
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,640
know, such a swampy.
But warm and fun and chaotic,

351
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,520
you know, kind of noise that I
mean, it really feels it.

352
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,240
It feels beat like beauty and
chaos all at once.

353
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,480
And I'm sure that's influenced
with their actual, you know,

354
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,440
where they're from and and where
they're where they were, where

355
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,760
they were coming up as a band.
Yeah.

356
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:43,360
What?
What can?

357
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:45,240
You tell me a little bit about
that, yeah.

358
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,840
So it's not really as simple of
a story like as the dad who were

359
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,680
decidedly from San Francisco.
You know, The Allman Brothers

360
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,200
came up in Macon, GA, but none
of them are from Macon, none of

361
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,680
them are from Georgia.
But that they moved there after

362
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,800
they formed.
They formed in Jacksonville, but

363
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,720
the only one actually from
Jacksonville was was Butch

364
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,000
Trucks.
Greg and Duane were from Daytona

365
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:13,120
Beach, FL, but they had moved
that, you know, they were also

366
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:16,120
from Los Angeles, so to speak.
I mean, they had been out there

367
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,400
with the hourglass and they had
had some very real experiences.

368
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:24,280
I mean, their first gig after
they moved to LA in 67 was

369
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,080
opening for the doors.
It was Summer of Light by fire,

370
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,120
you know, at and they played the
Whiskey a Go Go, they played

371
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:33,240
with Buffalo Springfield, they
hung out with Neil Young, the

372
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,480
Nitty Gritty Dirk Band, Jackson
Browne.

373
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,600
They saw Taj Mahal, which is
what well, they, they had some

374
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,200
real influence from California,
you know, they that they brought

375
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,280
back again.
Dwayne then was a session

376
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,360
musician for a while at Muscle
Shoals.

377
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:53,360
So he played with Wilson
Pickett, he played with Aretha

378
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:55,120
Franklin, he played with.
While.

379
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,520
Skaggs and Somebody owe me a
dime, which is just one of one

380
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,880
of my favorite tracks.
It is from that.

381
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,600
So they had a lot of experience
that Jamo had a fascinating

382
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,760
history.
I mean, he had tour, you know,

383
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,240
he's from Gulfport, Ms. that
ended up in Macon because he was

384
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,920
playing with different R&B
musicians.

385
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,680
He played with Otis Redding, he
played with Percy Sledge.

386
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,800
You know, when Matt When a Man
Loves a Woman was a giant hit,

387
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,360
He, you know, played with Joe
Tex, who was a giant star,

388
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:30,720
Clarence Carter.
So he had had all these great

389
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,880
experiences.
Barry Oakley had played with

390
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,200
this band Tommy Row in the
Romans, who was sort of like a

391
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,320
pop garage band and then ended
up in Florida after being on the

392
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,840
road with them.
And Dickie Betts and Barry had

393
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,160
been in this band called The
Second Coming, which was kind of

394
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:49,240
a psychedelic rock band who the
keyboardist of Wynans who went

395
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,440
on to play with Stevie Ray
Vaughan in Double Trouble.

396
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:58,440
So even though form they were
between I think 20 and 25, Barry

397
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,240
and Greg were the youngest and
Dickie and Jamie were the oldest

398
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,000
and Butch and Duane was Jordan
in the middle.

399
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,400
But so the oldest of them was
25, the youngest was 20, but

400
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,120
they still had so much
experience that they all brought

401
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:18,200
together, you know, from Otis
Redding to and Aretha Franklin

402
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,000
to, you know, having played
shows with, with Crazy with the

403
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,160
Doors and Buffalo Springfield in
LA.

404
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,760
So that was a lot.
So like Dickie Betts said to me

405
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,240
one time when I asked him about
that, I sort of said, how were

406
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,160
you guys so mature at such a
young age and and such a good

407
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,840
band so quickly?
Because they formed at the end

408
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,920
of March 1969.
They played their first proper

409
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,520
gig billed as The Allman
Brothers.

410
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,160
They had done these jams and
stuff on May 1st in Macon and

411
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,320
they recorded their first album
in August.

412
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:52,920
That was a lot, you know, really
fast.

413
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,120
And Dickie said, well, we
weren't a garage band, we were a

414
00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:00,880
nightclub band.
Everybody had played a lot of

415
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,840
shows before we ever met or did
anything together.

416
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,600
So.
But I think that the mate that

417
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,800
that the place where the make
and sound really came together

418
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:17,040
in his most heard in the all
brothers to me is brothers and

419
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,680
sisters.
That's an album that that that

420
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,080
we're Dick.
You know, after Dwayne had

421
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:27,240
passed away, Dickie.
Well, the one of the last things

422
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,080
he recorded with Dwayne was blue
sky.

423
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,640
That was one of the first times
that Dickie brought a little bit

424
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,640
of a country influence and and
then rambled man, they really

425
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,080
leaned into that.
And so I think that that album

426
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:45,480
is where the the country is
making Georgia Red play kicked

427
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,560
in a little bit and had a huge
influence on modern Nashville

428
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,120
now.
And all of what became known as

429
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:55,920
Southern rock, which Allman
Brothers never liked to be

430
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,480
called, really sprung from their
success.

431
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,520
And sonically probably from
brothers and sisters.

432
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,640
But Lynyrd Skynyrd, Marshall
Tucker, Wet Willie, the Outlaws

433
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,040
all got a chance to be
successful because of The Allman

434
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,800
Brothers success.
Before that, most man's was was

435
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,240
really considered as a rock
band.

436
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,600
If you wanted to make it,
wherever you were, you had to

437
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,960
move to one of the coast, you
know, and I mean.

438
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:23,560
Right.
Or play one of those big

439
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,040
festivals with everyone that
they did.

440
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,000
Yeah.
So they, they were just,

441
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,640
they're, they're a unique
animal, you know, it's just what

442
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,000
makes them, to me, an endlessly
interesting topic of

443
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,480
conversation and why I can keep
writing books about them and

444
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,240
articles and talking about them
because there was a lot, you

445
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:43,960
know, it.
There's a lot of stories that

446
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,440
come together to make the one
story.

447
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,560
And each of the six original
members are pretty interesting

448
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,520
characters that deserve
biographies in their own right.

449
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,920
And then over the years you had
a great characters like Chuck

450
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,920
Lavelle, Derek Trotz, Warren
Haynes who have stepped in, and

451
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,600
they each have their own sort of
fascinating story to tell.

452
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,560
Yeah, yeah, it's a.
It's a ton of fun.

453
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,840
It's a ton of fun.
And you know what, it's it's the

454
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:17,600
reason why I love musicians like
Bob Dylan, for example, who I

455
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,320
can never get him.
So it's always fun to try to

456
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,440
figure him out.
You know, like every time you

457
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:23,800
think you get a deal.
Yeah, everything.

458
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,200
Every time you think you get
Dylan style, you know, you

459
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,800
listen to another album or
another live bootleg set that he

460
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,600
releases and you're like, dude,
I don't even know anything on

461
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:32,760
here.
Like I don't, I don't, I don't

462
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,240
know the music, I don't know the
style.

463
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,200
I don't even know, I don't
recognize the voice over here.

464
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,160
And, and and it forces you to
kind of do homework.

465
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,320
And I think that, you know, such
an enduring in such an enduring

466
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,920
band again, you know, with such,
even though is so rich for a

467
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,120
short of time they were
together.

468
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,640
It's it's a band that was
together, like you said, 45

469
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,160
years.
That's it's there's there's got

470
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,800
to you.
You've got to go through a lot

471
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,080
in order to do so.
But what's also cool is that as

472
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,240
they would change the way that
they would play this.

473
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,560
I don't even know that they
would even add so many of dozens

474
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,280
of dozens of like Billy Strings
or the Grateful Dead or even

475
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,040
Bruce Springsteen would kind of
you know, they, they, they love

476
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,000
to cover songs and play a lot of
fun different covers and really

477
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,360
change up the setlist quite a
bit.

478
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,440
I feel like The Allman Brothers
typically had fairly regular

479
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,440
setlix and setlist rather than
the difference between them

480
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,400
would be the type of gaming that
they would play.

481
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,560
That's true for the most part.
It changed after that, after

482
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,560
2000 in one after Dickie Betts
was out of the band and Warren

483
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,520
came back in and Warren had left
for a few years and came back

484
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,400
and replaced Dickie basically.
And that's when the Dickie and

485
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,800
Warren era began.
I'm I'm sorry, Warren and Derek

486
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,000
era began.
And Warren, you know, was more

487
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,320
schooled in the jam band ethos
and certainly in the Dead World

488
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,240
by then.
He had played shows with them.

489
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,840
And he, just like we can't keep
playing the same.

490
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,120
He had been working on Dickey
for a long time.

491
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,200
You know, did I lose?
You.

492
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,560
No, I'm here, Efron.
Do you hear me?

493
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,440
I think I might have lost the
feed.

494
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,920
I still have you.
I mean, I still have myself, but

495
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:26,910
I don't know if you hear me,
maybe we should.

496
00:28:27,350 --> 00:28:36,600
Should we dial back in?
Am I still here?

497
00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:48,390
Damn back.
And yeah, you just froze up all

498
00:28:48,390 --> 00:28:50,910
of a sudden.
Hey everyone real quick if

499
00:28:50,910 --> 00:28:54,070
you're enjoying the show, click
subscribe and rate the show. 5

500
00:28:54,070 --> 00:28:55,950
stars helps a ton.
Thanks so much.

501
00:28:57,670 --> 00:28:58,510
All right.
We're back.

502
00:28:58,550 --> 00:29:00,870
Sorry about that.
As you were saying, I'm sorry.

503
00:29:00,870 --> 00:29:03,430
Yes.
Well, Dickie was should you go

504
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:05,670
all the way back to the origins
of The Allman Brothers.

505
00:29:05,670 --> 00:29:09,760
They played pretty much the same
setlist every night and they

506
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,240
would vary it a little bit.
It wasn't literally the same

507
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,440
set, but basically each tour had
a set list and they they sort of

508
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:20,040
stuck with that and very, very
different than the great for

509
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,040
them from the very beginning,
who were playing wildly

510
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,080
different set lists.
And I don't think This is why

511
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,720
they did it.
But in the end, that put a great

512
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,320
value on every show.
You know, with the tapes that

513
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,760
they were recording because of
Bear, I was in Stanley.

514
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,000
But because the shows are so
different, not just in

515
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,640
performance but also in the
actual setlist, every show

516
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,480
becomes like its own album.
You know, that The Allman

517
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:52,240
Brothers didn't quite do.
Now Warren, after they reformed

518
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,520
the 1989 really worked on Dickie
and wanted to change the setlist

519
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,400
up.
Greg to some extent and Dickey

520
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,240
to a larger extent where
hesitant to do that because

521
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,960
that's just not how they did
things.

522
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,600
And so he eventually got Dickey
to go to two set list.

523
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,520
So they would have like on a
tour an A list and AB list.

524
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,200
And so you can kind of figure it
out, like, Oh, well, let's see,

525
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,040
I'm going to the show on
Thursday, so I'll get the show.

526
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,600
They played on Tuesday before
Wednesday's show.

527
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,680
And.
And you could literally bank it.

528
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,400
Then eventually, they went to
three set lists, and Dickie

529
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,560
wouldn't really go past that.
After that, he was out of the

530
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,640
band in 2000, and Warren came
back.

531
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,640
They started really varying the
set list.

532
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,040
Yeah.
In the last, I guess 14 years of

533
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,320
the band, from 2000 to 2014,
their set lists were quite

534
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,440
varied.
Yeah, it's fun.

535
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,720
Yeah, maybe still not as much as
the dad, although maybe and and

536
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,840
and Warren did the set list and
he, you know, would always take

537
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,640
him to Greg for OK's.
And obviously Greg could change

538
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,280
things and stuff, but Warren was
very, very thoughtful about it

539
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,640
and always had an intent and
purpose to this as he put

540
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,440
together.
Listening to the I was just

541
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,280
listening before he came on to
Don't Think Twice, It's All

542
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,520
Right with Susan Tedeschi
sitting in and you know what?

543
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,600
I listened to Last Day between
to probably 5 different versions

544
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,840
of that song.
You know, I listened to Susan's

545
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,760
version, I listened to with the
with the with Kentucky Trucks.

546
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:27,720
I listened with Allman Brothers
and I'm so happy that they do

547
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,800
that.
And I'm so and, and you know,

548
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:31,960
the other thing that, you know,
that we talked that we touched

549
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,960
on about, you know, how
different genres bleed into each

550
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,840
other.
You really, really get a sense

551
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,280
for it.
And you know, after 2000 that,

552
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,480
you know, there's just so many
different influences that are

553
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,720
that that are bleeding in
musically to the to the setlist

554
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,040
and to that type of music that
they're playing.

555
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,040
I wanted to talk to you now,
please, a little bit about

556
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,520
China, because I'm really,
really fascinated about the

557
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,120
country in general, the people,
the society, the world.

558
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,640
What were you doing there?
How'd you get there?

559
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,760
And tell me about your fame.
Well, I'll tell you about.

560
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,160
All of that, but before I just
want to preface it with one

561
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:13,720
thing.
China changes so fast that and

562
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,440
I've been back for almost 20
years now.

563
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,920
So and for a while I was going
back to China quite a bit, but I

564
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:26,320
haven't been there since 2017.
I think I had a trip planned in

565
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,440
2020 that I had to cancel.
Forever.

566
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,720
It's changed.
Really fast in China and they've

567
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,560
really changed a lot since the
pandemic.

568
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,520
So.
But having said that, I went to

569
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,800
China in 2005 because my wife,
who's a journalist, Rebecca

570
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,200
Blumenstein, she's actually the
president of NBC News now.

571
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,400
Cool.
Yeah.

572
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:52,880
Something I don't talk about
that much.

573
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,320
I mean, not, I mean, I'm proud.
I'm very proud of her.

574
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,960
You know, we did together a long
time and I've watched her whole

575
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,360
career and helped her where I
could and everything, but it's

576
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:03,600
just, you know, whatever.
But.

577
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,000
But I don't talk about it that
much.

578
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:10,600
But she at the time worked at
the Wall Street Journal and was

579
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,320
Bureau chief for for tech and
telecom.

580
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,640
And somehow on conversation one
day came up, she wasn't that

581
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,200
that there was a Beijing Bureau
chief job was open.

582
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,240
She's telling another friend
about it.

583
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,720
And not even like that she was
going to go for the job, but

584
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,080
that it was like an example
because she was talking about

585
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,320
like, I don't know what I'm
going to do next.

586
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,720
But there's always something
like even this just came up and

587
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,880
we were just like having lunch
with our little our kids.

588
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,640
I mean, my son Eli was four
years old.

589
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:42,800
It was it was a friend of his
mother.

590
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,760
So I guess, you know, we were
with him and I was like, China.

591
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,800
That sounds cool.
And she was like, would you

592
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,880
actually move there?
And I said, yeah, they got wood.

593
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,680
And she was sort of shocked
because in the previous year, I

594
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,040
had been very discouraging about
moving.

595
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,800
There was a possible job opening
that she was interested in

596
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,400
within the Journal.
Two of them, one in Washington,

597
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:12,560
DC and one in San Francisco.
And I sort of like really was a

598
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:18,400
web.
Like we had three young kids

599
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,320
then.
My kids were, I think, about 2-4

600
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:26,960
and seven, and I have a pretty
good support network here.

601
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,000
We live across the street from
my aunt and uncle.

602
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,719
We have some other family
around.

603
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,440
My sister lived nearby.
And it was really important to

604
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,760
me.
You know, I was doing this music

605
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,639
writing at the time.
I was a staff writer for Guitar

606
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:43,679
World still and a slam magazine,
basketball magazine.

607
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,760
That's a whole other part of my
life that nobody knows about.

608
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,960
But I used to get the.
Magazines in high school and

609
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,120
print them and take their
posters, yeah.

610
00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:55,840
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I was a senior writer

611
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,400
for SLAM for 10 years before I'm
used to China, so that's

612
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,120
awesome.
Whole other.

613
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:03,040
Yeah, so.
And I kept writing for them

614
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:08,440
until not that long ago.
But yeah, I was hesitant to give

615
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,400
up my life here and my support
because I just thought, you

616
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,840
know, if we moved to San
Francisco or Washington or

617
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,720
something, I'm going to be
sitting alone in a house in a

618
00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:22,280
suburb where I don't know anyone
with these three kids.

619
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:28,240
I'm going to go insane.
But China, you know, in a way it

620
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:30,960
was it was obviously more
extreme, but it also was

621
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,880
temporary, you know, like we
could keep our house and rent

622
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,520
it.
The you know, it was like, and I

623
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,960
just thought this will be like
amazing.

624
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,000
I've never lived abroad and
like, what's the worst case

625
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,280
scenario that I hate it.
I'll still be like smarter and

626
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,240
and you know, more well-rounded
person on the other end.

627
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,200
So what the heck.
And so she was sort of shocked

628
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,080
and and then our friend was
there was sort of like acting

629
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,800
like the like a mediator.
She's like Alan.

630
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,360
So you really would go Rebecca,
would you actually be a

631
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,320
candidate?
She's like, I might be.

632
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,920
And so we left this lunch was
all that She would go in on

633
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,840
Monday and put her hand up for
the job.

634
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,000
And she did.
And Long story short, you know,

635
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,440
she got it.
And it was sort of a fluke,

636
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:24,520
really, because they tended to
send China experts there, you

637
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,000
know, for obvious reasons.
And there wasn't on at that time

638
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,720
one person who was supposed to
become the Bureau chief China

639
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,960
wouldn't give up a visa to
because they didn't like some

640
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,520
articles he had written.
And someone else dropped out and

641
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,320
so they didn't have a China
expert.

642
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,520
And so they just wanted to send
someone they trust.

643
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,280
Rebecca had done great work.
So she came home one day and she

644
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,080
was like, are you serious about
moving to China?

645
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,240
Because this is moving along and
they're actually taking

646
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,920
seriously.
And I could still like just say

647
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,920
I've changed my mind.
But it's like getting to the

648
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,640
point where pretty soon that
will be causing me a problem.

649
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,720
So were.
You were you anxious about this

650
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:06,400
at all?
What are you thinking?

651
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:12,240
You know, I, I wasn't, I was
surprisingly not anxious until I

652
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:15,520
did have AI did have a few
moments, but but for the at

653
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,320
first, I really was like, let's
just do it.

654
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,320
You know, I the Guitar World had
had a new owner.

655
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,240
They started saying that I was
on salary at Guitar World, which

656
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:28,560
was amazing, you know, so I was
able to stay home, be with my

657
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,040
kids.
You know that, I mean, they did,

658
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,480
I had to get daycare and stuff
for them but, and so I could

659
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,960
work.
But I was, you know it, it's

660
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,400
from where I live.
And the way I looked at it at

661
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,000
that .2 of us commuting into the
city was just going to be too

662
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:48,040
much, you know, But one of us
commuting in and then I was here

663
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,280
and I could be flexible and
again, as I said, some family

664
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:51,800
around.
So if I really couldn't do

665
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,560
something, I had some backup.
Yeah, Well, but, but Guitar

666
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,040
World had a new owner and they
were starting to basically say

667
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,120
it was getting close to where
they were going to cut me off of

668
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:02,920
gallery or make me come in the
office.

669
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:04,960
And I didn't really want to go
back.

670
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,160
I worked in the office.
I got total for six years.

671
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,280
I didn't really want to do that
again with the lifestyle we had

672
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:11,640
built up.
And I was doing this stuff for

673
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,520
slam and some other stuff.
So I was like, you know, my

674
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,800
sweet little gig here is going
to wrap up sometimes fairly

675
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,920
soon.
And this time sounds so cool.

676
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,840
Let's just do it.
I was born in Anchorage, AK.

677
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,400
Parents.
Yeah.

678
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:34,680
My dad is a pediatrician and he
joined the Indian Health Service

679
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,360
and I'll call the Native
American Health Service to

680
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,560
provide medical care to Native
Americans.

681
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,640
And they had a choice of going
to Sitka, Alaska or somewhere

682
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,920
Arkansas to a reservation, and
they chose Alaska.

683
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,720
And it was a very defining thing
for them.

684
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:52,080
You know, they stayed after he
was out of the service.

685
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,200
They moved to Anchorage for a
couple years, which is where I

686
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,160
was born.
And so I guess I and I talked to

687
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,280
my parents about it and I
remember my father said, look,

688
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,360
you know, you can't say no to
this.

689
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,960
Like the Alaska was defined our
lives in many ways like that we

690
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,440
could have never predicted.
And if I bet it will do that for

691
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:18,440
you and it turned out to really
be be that that was good advice.

692
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,440
And it's correct, it's to find
our lives.

693
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,600
And and my wife's parents
actually did something similar,

694
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,880
maybe not quite as extreme, but
they had moved from Detroit,

695
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,600
where she was born or she was
actually where they have lived.

696
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,960
And they moved when she was six
or seven years old and she had

697
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,920
two younger little sisters.
They moved to rural Maine for

698
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,640
three years.
And so I guess both of us had

699
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,360
this concept in our growing up
that you could do something

700
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,120
crazy when you have kids and
it's OK.

701
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,840
Yeah.
So China, you know, I didn't

702
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,560
know what I was going to do over
there.

703
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,800
I didn't.
And it just became like my world

704
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:01,400
opened up in so many ways and my
whole life and career.

705
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,680
I mean, not even not just for a
second to ignore like personal

706
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,520
growth and family growth and
stuff, but just strictly

707
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,600
focusing on the career.
You know, I took a risk because

708
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,240
I gave up these steady gigs.
But I, you know, didn't lose my

709
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:19,400
relationship with the magazines.
And it opened up so much.

710
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,320
You know, eventually I became a
columnist for the Wall Street

711
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,040
Journal writing about living as
an expat.

712
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:29,560
So it gave me, and I've been, I
mean, as much as I love the

713
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,640
music and the guitar stuff, I
was getting a little frustrated.

714
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,920
That's why Slam was so much fun,
because I, I didn't, but you

715
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,640
know, I, I liked, I could have
written about news, politics and

716
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,000
whatever.
And so that's what was a lot.

717
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,360
Of fun at that time too by the
way that the NBA was really

718
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,200
really awesome you know for the
at that point of time yeah it.

719
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,920
Opened up possibilities.
And then when I went and the

720
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,400
slam stuff, opened up a lot of
stuff in China because

721
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,040
basketball is huge in China and
the Olympics were coming.

722
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,360
And so, you know, I did a ton of
basketball there.

723
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,920
And then I ended up getting a
gig for NBC for the Olympics.

724
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,560
I worked at the 2008 Olympics,
sweetie.

725
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,840
What was that like?
That was amazing.

726
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,240
Yeah, it was Oh, man, what you
think we do Like I just like,

727
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,000
just like some cool experiences
that you had with them, because

728
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,360
I I would love to hear about
that with the Olympics.

729
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:26,840
Specifically.
Yeah, sure.

730
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:30,520
Well.
OK, so give me a second.

731
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,000
I'll, I'll get to that.
So by the time the Olympics

732
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,880
came, I have been in Beijing for
three years.

733
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,280
I had that city on lockdown.
Like I really knew what was

734
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,480
going on there.
I was writing that column for

735
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,360
the Journal.
I'd done that at that point, I

736
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,800
think for two years.
So I was very connected in the

737
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,880
expat world because of that and
because I had formed this band

738
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,400
with three Chinese guys over
that last that third year or so

739
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,400
by the time of the Olympics that
have been going for about a

740
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,960
year, I was very connected into
this Chinese sort of arts and

741
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,360
hipster world through my Chinese
bandmates.

742
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:12,240
And so the the NBC hired me.
They called it the Beijing

743
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:15,640
Blogger like to be like the, the
voice of local stuff, sort of.

744
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:21,640
So what my assignments were
really like, I had a full pass.

745
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:26,480
I could go to anything at the
Olympic, but they really wanted

746
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,840
me to focus on Chinese stuff
like, so I would I focus on on

747
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,040
events that Chinese were really
into that Chinese were likely to

748
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,080
win because that was sort of my
gig and I just went around.

749
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,800
I thought, yeah, I had my end.
My I still keep my credentials,

750
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,000
my, my Olympic credentials.
I keep them in a.

751
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:54,280
Yeah.
That because of course, yeah, it

752
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,320
was a it was a, it was a
highlight.

753
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:59,920
It was just an incredible
experience.

754
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:02,520
So that so.
Yeah, you could say he's even

755
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,560
worth moving there just to have
that opportunity, you know, just

756
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,560
that well.
I worked for like a year, you

757
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,440
know, I was like, I got to work.
I got to get a press pass for

758
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,880
the Olympics because it was such
a big thing looming over us.

759
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,480
And somebody's I don't, I don't.
Some of a friend of mine,

760
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,000
somebody said who who had worked
in sports marketing, it's like

761
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,840
you got to work for NBC.
Like NBC runs the Olympics.

762
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,840
If you can get, if you that's,
that's like the number one goal.

763
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,600
Spent like a year figuring that
out.

764
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,920
And you know, my wife's at NBC
News now she's done a lot of

765
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,360
cross pollination with NBC
Sports.

766
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,080
She was the first person.
We try to connect them together

767
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,640
a bit and one of the people she
ended up dealing with is the guy

768
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,280
who hired me for the Olympus.
He's still there and he he knew

769
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,840
he knew that I was her husband
and brought it up to her.

770
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,600
So that was a great experience.
But that was only like 3 weeks

771
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:02,200
out of almost four years.
And but I mean, I was still and

772
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,880
the band was a completely.
So yeah, tell me about the band.

773
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,080
How'd that happen So?
It's just incredible.

774
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,920
So when I went over to Beijing,
you know, I thought, well, you

775
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,320
know, I, I didn't have that much
financial pressure because I was

776
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,960
doing, I've been working so hard
because, you know, we have three

777
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,520
kids, We're paying daycare bills
and our mortgage and we're not.

778
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,840
And when I went over there, I
didn't really have to work

779
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,640
because what we had this expat
package like our housing was

780
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,320
pretty much free, you know,
child care was not free, but

781
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,760
like way cheaper.
It was just like financially, it

782
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,800
took a big burden off of me at
that time.

783
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,920
So my idea first year was I was
going to play a lot of guitar,

784
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,320
what I wanted to really.
And, and, and at the end of the

785
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,560
first year, I was sort of
disgusted with myself because I

786
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,400
had barely played at all.
I hadn't found anyone to play

787
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,120
with and I tend to not practice
very much if I'm not actively

788
00:44:56,120 --> 00:45:01,280
doing a project.
So I came home that summer after

789
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,960
my first year and I had a jam
session with some friends here

790
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:10,840
and in Maplewood, NJ.
And then I bought a new guitar

791
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,240
to sort of inspire me, which was
an Epiphone 335 because I have a

792
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:21,320
335 that I love right here.
It's a 197335.

793
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,080
Nice.
I didn't want to travel to China

794
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,160
with that because it's too
fragile.

795
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,240
So I left it with my brother.
And so I bought a an Epiphone

796
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:35,840
cheap knock off of that guitar.
Basically loved it.

797
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,280
Played it on these jam sessions.
I was really fired up.

798
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:39,400
I'm going to play a lot of
music.

799
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,200
I go back to China, they get
that thing.

800
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,520
They made me check it.
I open up the case and the head

801
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,640
socket broke it off.
No, I was really depressed, I

802
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,880
guess kind of like put it back
in the case and threw it under

803
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,640
my desk for a little while.
And when I was like, I got to

804
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:55,760
get this fixed.
So I started asking around.

805
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,880
It's a very broken head.
Sock is very fixable, but you

806
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:01,240
need someone who knows what
you're doing.

807
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:06,840
And so I started inquiring.
A couple people recommended this

808
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,960
guy, Woody Wu, who had a repair
shop in Beijing and he spoke

809
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,120
English because he was just back
from three years living in

810
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,320
Australia.
I contacted Woody and because I

811
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,120
wanted to get good treatment.
You know, I said this Alan Paul

812
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,000
from Guitar World, and it was
kind of funny because before,

813
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,800
like over the years when I went
in guitar stores, I would never

814
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,400
tell people here that I was from
Guitar World magazine.

815
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,280
I would be embarrassed I
couldn't play, mostly in the

816
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,080
shred era, you know, they would
expect me to play like that.

817
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,800
But in China, you know, I wanted
to make sure that he paid

818
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:43,840
attention to me.
And it totally worked, You know,

819
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:48,040
he wrote me back.
He's like, I looked you up.

820
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,680
You've interviewed so many of my
heroes, I would love to help

821
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,320
you, blah, blah, blah.
We made an appointment, brought

822
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,360
him the guitar.
He met me.

823
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,080
He was about 12 years younger
than me at the time.

824
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,320
I think I had just had my 40th
birthday.

825
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,800
He was 28 And did he have an
Australian?

826
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,840
Accent from Learning English
there a.

827
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,200
Little bit he had yeah, a little
bit he had a yes, he had a, he

828
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,400
had a little bit of a strange
accent, but yes, it leaned

829
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:17,240
towards Australia and he had an
Australian wife also and he,

830
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:22,040
which is how he had moved there.
He he is covered in tattoos.

831
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,720
He had a big nose ring.
He was wearing like aviator

832
00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:28,680
glasses when I met him.
And metal is pretty popular

833
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:30,200
there.
In fact, I had gone to like a

834
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,880
tribute to diamond bag there
concert because I saw it.

835
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:38,640
Listen, I'm like, that's wild.
Yeah.

836
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,000
I figured Woody was a metal guy
and and all those years on staff

837
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,720
at Guitar World.
I mean, I, I did not just my

838
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:47,600
passion stuff, but lots of you
know, I interviewed Metallica

839
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,680
and Megadeth, everyone, I mean,
whoever like, you know, I had to

840
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,120
write a certain number of
features a month and whatever

841
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,200
they needed I did.
And I just kind of figured

842
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,360
that's the stuff he had read.
But then, you know, he got the

843
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:01,800
guitar.
The guy was going to fix it.

844
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,560
He brought it to and we worked
it all out.

845
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,520
And then he said, oh, I'd love
to talk to you about your

846
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:07,920
experiences.
We sat down, he took his Jean

847
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,600
jacket off and he had a tattoo
look in his whole left upper arm

848
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,720
of Stevie Ray Vaughan all.
Nice.

849
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,200
And that was actually what he
had read, it turns out for me,

850
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,200
was stuff about Stevie Ray.
And I had written the liner

851
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,720
notes on the Stevie Ray Vaughan
box set, which was fairly new at

852
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:30,240
the time, I think a few years
old.

853
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,720
And he just couldn't believe
that the guy who wrote that, you

854
00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:38,200
know, sitting in the shop that
had walked into his shop in

855
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,080
Beijing.
That was wild to him.

856
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:45,160
But to me, it was wild.
Like, I mean, I just found 28

857
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,600
year old Chinese guy with a
tattoo of Stevie Ray Vaughan.

858
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,280
So we were both sort of
delighted to find each other and

859
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,040
surprise, you know, he thought I
was a big deal.

860
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,720
I thought he was a big deal
really, you know, And then we

861
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,840
exchanged numbers and stuff and
I just thought like, oh, I got

862
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,480
this Chinese friend, maybe he'll
take me to some cool bars and,

863
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,560
like gigs and, you know, I meet
some cool bands and stuff.

864
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,080
And then when the guitar was
ready, he invited me.

865
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,960
You know, he told me it was
ready and he said I'm ply of a

866
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,640
gig with a kind of cool band,
like on Wednesday night, you

867
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,520
know, do you want me to?
Do you want to come see us?

868
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,440
I'll pick and pick it up there.
So yeah, that would be great.

869
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:28,000
So I did.
And the band was actually really

870
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,480
cool.
And he said to me before, you

871
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:31,960
know, he showed me the guitar.
It was great.

872
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:36,160
And, you know, China was really,
at the time, it was all cash,

873
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,560
cash society.
They went from cash to cashless

874
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,560
really fast with no credit card
in between.

875
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:45,480
It's all paid by app.
But anyhow, it was totally cash.

876
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,000
And they were like, you didn't
get anything without cash in

877
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,160
advance.
And the first sign that Woody

878
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,360
was a different kind of Chinese
guys, he was just like, yeah,

879
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,840
the bills in the case, just, you
know, we'll figure it out.

880
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,440
And I was like, OK, so then he's
like, hey, do you want to jam

881
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,760
with us?
Well, I said sure.

882
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,760
He said, all right, I'll make
sure the guitars tuned and leave

883
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,760
it on stage and we'll call you
up.

884
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,880
And I'm like, all right, just,
you know, I love the best year.

885
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,840
So, you know, just tell me the
key when I come up and make it a

886
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,280
repetitive songs that, you know.
Oh, no problem.

887
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,640
There was.
So he called me up and they did

888
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,760
that.
It was a very like pink floydy

889
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:28,200
song, sort of like a Blues and E
And I play mostly and I think I

890
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,200
played a solo.
It was fine.

891
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,120
It's not like I killed it or
anything, but it was, it was

892
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,800
fine, you know, And then I got
off and then I sat back down and

893
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:44,720
then the, the guy introduced me.
He said like in Chinese, we have

894
00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:49,320
a very famous American
journalist, rock journalist

895
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,840
here, Alan Paul, you know, they
introduced me.

896
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,200
I'm like, oh, that's nice, you
know, And I, I kind of waved.

897
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,360
I was just sitting by myself at
a table drinking a Qingdao, you

898
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,560
know?
Then he said something else and

899
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,160
I but it was all in Chinese.
And I understood the first part,

900
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:06,640
but I sort of lost him on the
second.

901
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,560
I didn't understand some of the
verbs and I was like, he's

902
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,160
talking about me, but what is he
saying?

903
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,160
Then I realize everyone's
clapping and looking and what he

904
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:21,000
was doing was calling me back up
and basically like he was going

905
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,360
to walk off stage and just give
me the band.

906
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,120
And I had a little, I was sort
of freaked out.

907
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,040
I had a little bit of a fight or
flight, almost ran, but you

908
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,960
know, there wasn't, I wasn't
that strong.

909
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,920
So yeah, so I went up and I was
just like, jeez, what am I going

910
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,520
to do, you know?
And nobody speaks English except

911
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,480
Woody.
Woody was playing lap steel, I

912
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:43,720
should have said.
And he's cool.

913
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,040
Yeah, it's cool.
He was really good.

914
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,520
So I was trying to think what
would sound good with lap steel.

915
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:55,120
So I played deep L and Blues,
you know, that song.

916
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,520
And I played Dead Flowers, which
probably got a little tricky

917
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,320
because it's an easy song, but
it has some changes that if you

918
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:03,680
don't know what you might not
expect.

919
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,040
And then I played a really
dumbed down version of

920
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,600
Southbound, like without the
basically.

921
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:15,320
And it was cool, you know, like
my expectations were so low, but

922
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,480
I was just like, hey, I didn't
below it.

923
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,320
And people seem to like it, you
know, that was cool.

924
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:22,720
And that was that.
And then it's pretty diverse.

925
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:25,520
It's a pretty diverse kind of
set list, no?

926
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,480
Yeah.
Well, it was literally off the

927
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:32,080
top of my head.
I know like the what you know,

928
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,840
because I was I was so thrown in
there like what what will I not

929
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:39,920
mess up that the other guys can
pick up and that I'm comfortable

930
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:41,480
singing.
You know, that was, that was

931
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,280
more the issue for me, actually
been playing with the Stinging

932
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,160
and he loved it.
Yeah.

933
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:51,680
And so then afterwards, you
know, Woody said to me, I

934
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,720
thought your singing was great,
which is I was like, wow, OK,

935
00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:57,560
really.
In retrospect, my singing was

936
00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,920
probably better than my guitar
playing, but I was more

937
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:02,040
confident in my guitar playing
and my singing.

938
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,080
You know, I shouldn't have been.
But so.

939
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,160
Yeah.
So he was like, I'd love to do

940
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,920
more stuff with you.
And I had an American friend who

941
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,480
owned a really nice restaurant
and I had played there a couple

942
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,320
of times with other people.
I had started like sitting in

943
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:25,120
with people and jamming a bit,
but and she wanted me to host a

944
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:25,520
joke.
Find these.

945
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,440
Places when you're going to have
to sit in with people like, you

946
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:33,480
know, I think a lot of people.
Show that that that place where

947
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:37,440
where where was near my house.
It was a kind of a really cool

948
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,040
expat hang out, but a very it
was a it was a mixed Chinese

949
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:46,200
expat crowd and the owners were
a couple with a Chinese man and

950
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:50,160
an American woman.
That was another one, you know,

951
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,600
and I never would have sung in
public in this much.

952
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,280
I sang with these guys.
I sat in with there because I

953
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,840
had got, I was friendly with her
and I got these other guys to

954
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,600
gig there and she said to me
also, I love your singing.

955
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,000
You know, I'd, I'd be cool for
you to host an open mic here.

956
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:10,520
And I wasn't confident enough to
like play like host an open mic

957
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:14,880
by myself.
But I like the sound of two

958
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,600
guitars more than one guitar.
And he has I'm not really a

959
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,600
leap.
I'm not like a finger picker who

960
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,280
can like carry it by himself.
I mean, I can for a song or two,

961
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:27,000
but well, once I met Woody, he's
like, I'd love to do more with

962
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:28,000
you.
I said, hey, you know what?

963
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,520
I have an open invitation to
host an open mic.

964
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,600
You want to like work up a set
and we'll do that.

965
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,920
And he said, sure.
So basically we did that, and

966
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,520
then a friend of mine who was
another American guy, was a

967
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,280
great saxophone player I had
jammed with a few times.

968
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:46,440
I invited him.
I just thought he'd play a song

969
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:47,600
or two.
But he ended up playing the

970
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:54,760
whole set and we worked up a set
list that had, I don't know what

971
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:56,560
was in it.
I mean, probably all those songs

972
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:01,160
I mentioned maybe.
And then I don't know.

973
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,200
That's what love will make you
do.

974
00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:07,440
Meet me in the morning.
Did they know all this stuff?

975
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,760
Were they willing to learn it?
Was it like, what was the

976
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,680
reaction?
What was that like?

977
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:17,920
Yeah, Woody didn't know most of
that stuff, but was willing to

978
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:21,040
learn it and he knew who all the
people were for the most part,

979
00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:25,960
but he know it really well.
The crowd, like those initial

980
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:28,600
crowds, those were mostly act
that that place was a mostly

981
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,960
expat crowd, which made it kind
of easy because I had been there

982
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,520
for a year, I guess a year and
change by then I knew a lot of

983
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:37,160
people.
And so I had a lot of friends

984
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:39,680
there and they were just kind of
into like seeing their buddy

985
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:40,760
play.
Sure.

986
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,000
Then we we went through a few
different we had like a

987
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,760
different upright bass player
for a while and we had a

988
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,000
percussion player.
I we're going to keep a really

989
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:55,920
acoustic and then percussion was
the cool guy was that African

990
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,200
guy was a music teacher at my
kids school who played in a

991
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:01,240
really cool reggae band.
Actually.

992
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:05,160
There was a lot of interesting
people floating around Beijing,

993
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:06,320
like there really were.
And.

994
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,800
And eventually when Woody
realized like that we were

995
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,520
getting better and better and we
played some stuff, he went and

996
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:17,880
got an amazing drummer and bass
player and a bass player 1st and

997
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,520
then the drummer.
And that was sort of our second

998
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:25,360
year as a band.
And that's when it became really

999
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,120
a band.
So it was all like just kind of

1000
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:30,640
everything we did before that
was just like laying the

1001
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,680
groundwork to get to that.
Yeah.

1002
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:39,040
And these guys were incredible.
And I I, you know, I had this,

1003
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,880
there's ABB King song called You
better not look down if you want

1004
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,920
to keep on flying.
And that was sort of my mantra

1005
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,200
because I had a lot of things in
China happened to me that I

1006
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,640
couldn't believe were happening,
you know, like writing the

1007
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:54,800
column.
It was successful and forming

1008
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,120
the band and then the band, you
know, and, and I was just like,

1009
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,680
I can't think about this stuff
too much.

1010
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,800
I got to like stay in the moment
and keep reacting because I have

1011
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,600
learned, you know, even like on
the gigs, you know, if I allowed

1012
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:13,400
myself to wander my brain even
for a second, I would mess up

1013
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:18,920
the song, you know, if I even
was like, oh, where's you know,

1014
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,080
Rebecca?
I thought she was coming or it's

1015
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,520
really crowded.
I hope so and so got in or

1016
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,840
anything, you know, anything
that wasn't what I was doing, I

1017
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,880
would then realize I messed up.
So something that's actually

1018
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:32,720
something I really like about
performing.

1019
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:35,640
You know, I like that a lot of
like I I'm a big skier.

1020
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,680
I like that about skiing.
I started playing hockey in

1021
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:40,440
Beijing.
I I never have again.

1022
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,200
I like that about hockey.
Like if you quit focusing for a

1023
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,000
second, you're you're.
I do jiu jitsu.

1024
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,440
It's the same thing, yeah.
Yeah, I like, I like that.

1025
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:52,600
And it took me a while to
realize that about myself.

1026
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:56,080
The devils that brought out a
part of me that's in a good way.

1027
00:57:56,080 --> 00:58:00,800
It's very therapeutic.
And so it was just step by step.

1028
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:04,400
Like I never would have formed
the band thinking like, I'm

1029
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,680
going to form a great band and
we're going to make like a run

1030
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:10,760
at, at something.
And it was just one thing after

1031
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:12,280
another.
We got those guys and they were

1032
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,720
really good.
And then Woody was like, you

1033
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,040
know, we could actually be a
good band, but are you willing

1034
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,800
to, like, rehearse and, like,
arrange these songs?

1035
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,360
Because we were still sort of
just jamming every time we got

1036
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,760
together.
And I said, yeah, you know, he

1037
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,120
wrote me when I was home on,
like, a long summer break.

1038
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,280
And he said, we have to have a
meeting about the band when you

1039
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,240
get back.
I was like, OK.

1040
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,800
And I was sort of dreading it
because I thought he was going

1041
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:43,640
to say that he want.
He was, you know, And when we

1042
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,000
got together, he basically was
like, you know, we could keep

1043
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,600
doing what we're doing or we
could try to be a real band if

1044
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,440
you're willing.
And he was actually told me

1045
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:54,200
later of surprise that I said
yes because he knew how busy I

1046
00:58:54,200 --> 00:59:00,120
was and with my kids and stuff.
But to me, the opportunity,

1047
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:04,560
first of all, to do it in China
was obviously incredible.

1048
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,200
But even beyond that, like just
the chance, like the meeting

1049
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,960
that I had with these guys, like
if I had been starting a band

1050
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:16,040
here, I wouldn't have been able
to get that quality of musicians

1051
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:17,920
at the level I was at at that
point.

1052
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:20,880
And they were great and I knew
it.

1053
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:25,920
And I, and that made me get
better, you know, fast because

1054
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:28,920
I'm not going to be the weak
link.

1055
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,160
I mean, I maybe I still am going
to be the weak link, but I'm not

1056
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:35,280
going to be that weak.
And the like, yeah, I really

1057
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,440
worked.
I really, really worked on music

1058
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:41,480
in a way I hadn't quite before.
Always something I did for

1059
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,400
years, but not but that much
focus, intent.

1060
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,600
I never approached it the same
way like I approached my writing

1061
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:52,280
of like really thinking and
putting in the time and really

1062
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,120
focused effort to get better and
learn things and.

1063
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,920
Do you find your mic more
surgical now, or more much more

1064
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:05,000
nuanced about music in general?
You know, I'm probably I'm, I'm

1065
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,560
a lot better in a lot of ways.
I'm certainly have a lot more

1066
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:11,040
experience, but I don't think
I've, in some ways I'm probably

1067
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:15,360
not as good because I'm playing
in this band now, friends of the

1068
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,520
brothers, which is great.
I put it together with Junior

1069
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:23,360
Mack and Andy Alanard, who
played with Jamo and Dickie

1070
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:25,960
Betts, respectively, yours and
we're doing all my brothers

1071
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,040
stuff, but we've put together an
incredible band.

1072
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:31,280
But I just play acoustic guitar
in that band.

1073
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:35,400
And so my I've gotten, we've
learned a lot of songs and my

1074
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,040
right hand has gotten amazing
because I'm playing with two

1075
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:40,120
amazing drummers and a bass
player.

1076
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:45,000
But it's different than like in,
in so the Chinese band, the name

1077
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:48,800
was Woody Allen, which is pretty
funny, our names.

1078
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,480
But in Woody Allen, I mean, I
was carrying the band.

1079
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,800
I mean, because I was often the
only guy playing chords.

1080
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:57,760
We went through different
things.

1081
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:00,280
I played electric guitar.
Woody played lap steel in

1082
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:03,720
electric guitar and slide.
I mean, I'm sorry, in harmonica.

1083
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,600
But we eventually realized,
like, our sweet spot of a sound

1084
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,880
was with him playing lap steel
and me playing acoustic.

1085
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:15,600
And that made us really unique.
And so eventually I quit playing

1086
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:19,160
electric in the band and he
mostly quit playing electric.

1087
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:22,760
And so, and then we still had
Dave's in sax player.

1088
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:26,480
So our we had a killer rhythm
section and the front line was

1089
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:29,640
Alto sax, acoustic guitar and
lap steel.

1090
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:33,560
It's a pretty different sound,
you know, it sounds really cool.

1091
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:36,440
Yeah.
Easy for us to sound like music

1092
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:37,600
on.
Spotify or online?

1093
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:42,040
It's not it.
It was, and unfortunately, my

1094
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:44,360
Chinese record label seems to
have disappeared.

1095
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,880
Oh, dear.
We did record an album called

1096
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:49,560
Beijing Blues.
I'm going to get it back out.

1097
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:51,720
I I, I own the copyrights, all
this stuff.

1098
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,040
I I can totally do it.
And I and I will.

1099
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:55,640
Yeah, yeah, I'd.
Love to hear it.

1100
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:57,160
I'd love to.
I'd love to share it for sure.

1101
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:58,360
Yeah.
It's it's.

1102
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:01,760
It's pretty cool, you know, And
I had never really written songs

1103
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:03,160
before.
I had written a lot of half

1104
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:06,160
songs, but I hadn't really
finished that many songs.

1105
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:10,080
And I wanted to start writing
original music for the band.

1106
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:14,320
I mean, we we knew it was an
imperative and it's fun.

1107
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:17,840
This is where like my journalism
cross with it in a way, because

1108
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:19,920
I remember thinking, OK, what
should I write about?

1109
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:24,080
Well, I thought of the way
Robbie Krieger from The Doors,

1110
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:27,680
the first song he ever wrote,
was like my fire because Jim

1111
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:30,720
Wilson at a rehearsal was like,
you know, I'm writing all the

1112
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,080
lyrics when you guys write some
damn songs.

1113
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:38,240
And he told Robbie, told me that
Jim told him sometime just focus

1114
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,240
on the elements, you know?
So that's where he came up with

1115
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:42,920
fire.
So he's like, what element?

1116
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:45,800
Fire.
OK, fire, fire.

1117
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,120
And yeah.
So I thought of that.

1118
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:52,320
I was like, well, what are the
elements of Beijing pollution,

1119
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:55,280
you know, at that time that it's
improved a lot.

1120
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,360
Yeah.
The time the air was really bad.

1121
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:00,600
I mean, it was often like this
thick, soupy thing.

1122
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:05,240
So I just wrote the first line.
They say the sun is shining, but

1123
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:09,240
I don't see it anywhere.
And because that was all

1124
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:11,640
experience, Like, you could
look, you could look at the

1125
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:15,600
weather map, you know, and it
would show a sunny day, and you

1126
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,360
look outside, and it was like
totally fog.

1127
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,600
That's crazy.
So, yeah, so I just started

1128
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,800
writing from my experience, you
know, and then turned out that

1129
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,000
our bass players, amazing
Chinese musician named John

1130
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:32,760
Young was a great songwriter and
he brought a sort of bringing

1131
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:35,080
some songs in in Chinese.
And so then we became a

1132
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:40,920
bilingual band.
It was probably still like 70%

1133
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:44,480
English maybe, but yeah, we
started doing more and more

1134
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:46,720
Chinese songs, which was cool,
you know?

1135
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:52,520
And, and it wasn't a Chinese guy
singing English.

1136
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:58,600
He didn't understand or English
speaking guy, me singing bad

1137
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,840
Chinese.
It was an American guy singing

1138
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:04,800
in English and a Chinese guy
singing in Chinese.

1139
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:06,960
And I, you know, I think that's
better.

1140
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:10,840
So yeah, it was, we had an
amazing run.

1141
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:12,120
We recorded this.
How long do you?

1142
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:16,480
Guys play for.
We play well.

1143
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:20,720
We had like 1 full year in that
edition of the band, you know,

1144
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:25,120
actually from yeah, like from
September until like July when I

1145
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:27,160
moved.
No, no, no, no, I'm sorry.

1146
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:29,480
I moved in, you know, a year and
a half, year and a half, Sorry.

1147
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:35,680
And, and it was incredible.
We were just really kind of

1148
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:40,280
gaining a next level.
We won this award as best band

1149
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:45,000
in Beijing, which was incredible
in a reader's poll from That's

1150
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,360
Beijing Magazine, and it was
incredible.

1151
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:52,520
And then that got that got us
attention and we toured a bunch.

1152
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:57,320
We played all over the country.
We played big festivals.

1153
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,840
It was what are the what?
Are the people there like what's

1154
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:03,040
the what's the society and
culture they're like?

1155
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,560
Do you find you just like could
slip right in and just say

1156
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:09,600
you're you're OK with?
Yeah, I mean, again, just to

1157
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:12,200
reiterate what I said at the
beginning, I mean, China has

1158
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:17,440
changed so much that I can.
But yes, Chinese people are

1159
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:20,760
very, very open.
They're they're, they have a lot

1160
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,640
in common with Americans.
They they tend to be pretty

1161
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,440
China centered, just like people
here are America centered, the

1162
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,920
big countries that don't have to
think about the rest of the

1163
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,920
world that much, unlike a lot of
other places in the world.

1164
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:40,880
And they're very family oriented
and they like to have a good

1165
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:44,120
time and they're not automatons.
You know, people I think have a

1166
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:46,160
vision of them being like North
Korea.

1167
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:49,280
It's not like that.
We were also there during sort

1168
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:52,280
of a golden era was opening up
quite a bit.

1169
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:56,000
There was a sense that both
politically and economically

1170
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,040
things are changing.
Certainly economically on there

1171
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,680
were way more middle class
people there were great.

1172
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,960
I think 600 million people out
of poverty, yeah.

1173
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:07,480
I mean, it's one of the great
success stories, you know, for

1174
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:13,160
all the laws and issues they
had, it was also interesting.

1175
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:16,240
I mean, you're Jewish, right?
That's right.

1176
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:20,200
Well.
I I'm Jewish too and and my

1177
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:21,960
Chinese bandmates were
fascinated.

1178
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:25,280
O Tai ran is Jewish person in
Chinese.

1179
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:31,240
O Tai means Jewish and ran as
person and they had great

1180
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:36,520
reverence for O Tai ran.
A lot of it based on 1st

1181
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:43,600
stereotypes, but you know, like,
oh, you know, you know, Jewish

1182
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,000
people are like us.
They had a sense that they're

1183
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:49,160
like Chinese more than other
Westerners.

1184
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:55,640
Are they like they care about
family and education.

1185
01:06:57,040 --> 01:06:59,440
That's that's that's what I'll
say those and and they're good

1186
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,520
with money, you know, and that
that was the stereotypes they

1187
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,480
had and that and they were
positive stereotypes as far as

1188
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:08,800
that goes.
And they had they had, in my

1189
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:12,240
experience, very was all only
positive to be an old tyrant in

1190
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:14,840
China.
Most people just didn't care.

1191
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:19,360
But I mean, I remember at one
point the Chinese bandmates

1192
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:23,640
were, it was like Christmas or
Easter, some, some holiday and

1193
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:25,920
they were surprised that I was
available like that.

1194
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:28,160
I didn't wasn't doing formally
stuff or whatever.

1195
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:32,120
And I said, you know, Wilshire
Otayran, you know, I'm, I'm

1196
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:38,760
Jewish and like, oh, kind of
like, oh, now I get it.

1197
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,520
But it was, it was just another
interesting part of the

1198
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:44,960
experience.
We went to a really cool

1199
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:51,320
synagogue there called Kahila.
Fishing was inherently, you

1200
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:56,040
know, the, the only options
there was that or Chabad.

1201
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:01,120
So in fact, we had our kids
Sunday school at Chabad because

1202
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:03,960
they they had a they're.
Very into education.

1203
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,200
Chabad, yeah.
And they were willing to like,

1204
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:09,280
let us run our own school sort
of like they didn't try to

1205
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:14,200
impose their their style on us,
which was which was great.

1206
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:21,600
And yeah, but other than Chabad,
that the synagogue was it.

1207
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:28,760
So people from, you know, modern
Orthodox to very reformed

1208
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,200
reconstructionists and
everything in between came

1209
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:35,960
together.
And so we had, I'll call them

1210
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:39,520
non denominational services.
You know that, You know, I'm

1211
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:41,160
sure everybody would have liked
it to be.

1212
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,319
Some people would have liked
rolls, some people would have

1213
01:08:43,319 --> 01:08:48,000
liked last, but we but nobody
really cared because it was also

1214
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,479
just a wonderful community.
And it's an interesting

1215
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:53,720
experience.
You know, it's like I live in a

1216
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:57,760
place that's, that's, I don't
know, there's, there's plenty of

1217
01:08:57,760 --> 01:08:59,840
Jewish people.
My kids had Jewish and non

1218
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:02,520
Jewish friends, but everybody
knows that the, you know, our,

1219
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:06,479
our schools are public schools
are off for all the holidays.

1220
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:10,760
Certainly the non Jewish people
are very, very well aware of the

1221
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:14,319
holidays of the religion and bar
mitzvahs and everything else.

1222
01:09:15,319 --> 01:09:19,040
And so it's easy to just
continue with with, you know,

1223
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:22,160
whatever you're doing.
It was an interesting experience

1224
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:26,120
for me to go over there where
nobody cared and most of our ex

1225
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:30,080
pet friends were not Jewish.
It would have been very easy to

1226
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:34,800
just not do it.
And and what do you?

1227
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,319
Think kept you tied down?
You think they're tied to it?

1228
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:41,880
Well, my wife is a little more
observant to me, so she would

1229
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,040
never not do it.
Be honest.

1230
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:48,720
It was and I, I don't know.
So I'm not sure how I would be.

1231
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:51,080
I don't think I would either,
actually, but I might and she

1232
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:54,720
definitely wouldn't.
No, it was very meaningful.

1233
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:57,480
It was, it was, it made it more
because it was more thoughtful

1234
01:09:57,760 --> 01:09:59,560
because, because it was a
choice.

1235
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,240
Like you couldn't take three
years off and nobody would have

1236
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:05,280
been any of the wiser.
You know, it was, it was really

1237
01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:06,760
like, do I want to do this or
not?

1238
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,120
I had the same.
I had the same experience.

1239
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:12,800
I, I, I grew up in a Rockland
County is all Jewish, you know,

1240
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:15,200
all, all, all enormously
Orthodox.

1241
01:10:15,480 --> 01:10:19,000
And I found that I, I, you know,
I went to College in Binghamton

1242
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:23,920
and I, I moved to Seattle and I,
I moved to South Florida, but

1243
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:26,280
you know, a quieter part.
And I found that the smaller

1244
01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:30,160
communities where you don't take
for granted the fact that, you

1245
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:32,760
know, all your neighbors down
the block or you know, that

1246
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:36,440
there's 10 restaurants that are
all kosher and available, you

1247
01:10:36,440 --> 01:10:38,720
know, and, you know, the
question becomes, do you, you

1248
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:40,240
know, do you really want to do
it or not?

1249
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:43,080
That's when it becomes the most
meaningful I've found.

1250
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:44,640
So I pursued the small
communities.

1251
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:49,400
Yeah.
And, and the addendum to that is

1252
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:53,120
that, well, look, like, I
remember going to, you know,

1253
01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:57,600
like High Holiday Holiday
services, we're like, it was

1254
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:01,400
really something because like
nobody knew where I was or what

1255
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:03,840
I was doing.
That was really like, you know,

1256
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:05,600
we, we, we didn't have a
building.

1257
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:09,400
We, we used like a ballroom at
an Athletic Club where they

1258
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:13,920
were, they were very nice and
kind of, but it was like there

1259
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:17,600
was whatever, 100 of us or
probably less 50 or 70 of us may

1260
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:21,720
be in this room.
And we were like the only people

1261
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:26,720
in the city of 9019 million, you
know, And whoever was at the

1262
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:28,960
Chabad, you know, I have no idea
how many people that was.

1263
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:33,320
So yeah.
It, it, it, it, it was kind of

1264
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:35,560
felt special and, and, and
meaningful.

1265
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:37,920
And then we also got to have
three New Year's, you know, you

1266
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:38,160
know.
Yeah.

1267
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:43,080
New.
Year and you know, December 31st

1268
01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:45,600
and Jewish New Year.
So more New Year's is better.

1269
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,880
I I recommend everyone to pull
more New Year's as many as we

1270
01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:50,440
could.
Get So yeah, we still saw.

1271
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:52,520
A red Chinese New Year.
So we do all three.

1272
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:59,000
In fact, this I have this red
bracelet on was my wife and I

1273
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:01,600
actually are both year of the
Horse, which is this year.

1274
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:04,480
And we went out to dinner on
Chinese New Year with some

1275
01:12:04,480 --> 01:12:09,040
Chinese friends in New York.
And when they realized we were

1276
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:13,160
year of the Horse and we weren't
wearing anything red, they got

1277
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:17,520
very, very upset.
And they carry these around just

1278
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:19,880
for people who are the year of
the Horse.

1279
01:12:20,480 --> 01:12:21,840
Thank you.
Yeah.

1280
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:24,360
You're supposed to have read on
all year because you're actually

1281
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:26,520
considered vulnerable.
Oh, yeah.

1282
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:27,320
I.
Was going to ask what it

1283
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:29,160
signifies.
What does it signify it?

1284
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:33,880
Just it's, they don't use this
word, but my, my understanding

1285
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:37,760
of it is it's sort of warding
off evil spirits, warding off

1286
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:40,760
luck or whatever.
Because evil eye Yeah, you're

1287
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:43,760
considered vulnerable during
your year.

1288
01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:46,440
It's cool that these.
Superstitions exist everywhere,

1289
01:12:46,440 --> 01:12:49,000
dude, because you go, you go to
the, you go to the, you know,

1290
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:51,000
you go to Israel, you go, you go
to the Kota, you go to the

1291
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:53,200
Wailing Wall.
And people give you the exact

1292
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:56,560
same red bracelet, red string
bracelet for the exact same

1293
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:58,360
purpose, to protect you from
evil eyes.

1294
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:00,280
Yeah.
I I don't know whether you know,

1295
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:01,640
And they're two different
universes.

1296
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:05,400
Yeah.
It's yeah, I, I, yeah, I don't

1297
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:07,120
know what the IT.
Well, Chinese people

1298
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:11,560
traditionally will wear red
underwear during during their

1299
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:13,920
birth year because that way they
always have red on.

1300
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:16,240
That's the easiest way to make
sure you always have red on.

1301
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:18,760
It's just by a bunch of red
underwear and wear it.

1302
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:22,800
So my friends who gave this to
me were like, yeah, either buy a

1303
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:24,640
bunch of red underwear or keep
this on.

1304
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:27,480
And so it's only been like a
month, but I've kept it on so

1305
01:13:27,480 --> 01:13:28,600
far.
I hope you.

1306
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:31,720
Good luck continues.
Well, I.

1307
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:35,680
Did realize 12 years ago, you
know, which would have been my

1308
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:41,440
last year of the horse was 2014.
That was a year one way out came

1309
01:13:41,440 --> 01:13:44,480
out which was like changed my
life in a good way.

1310
01:13:44,480 --> 01:13:48,600
So I wasn't protected, I did not
have red underwear or red string

1311
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:53,760
bracelet and I had good luck.
But now that I know I'm not

1312
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,400
taking my chances, so.
I just showed my high school

1313
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,960
class The Matrix and there's a
scene where don't worry about

1314
01:13:59,960 --> 01:14:02,880
the vase is like, what vase?
And he turns out knocks it down

1315
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:06,360
and she's like, that one is
like, but the question is, if I

1316
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:08,280
didn't say anything to you,
would you have knocked it over?

1317
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:11,120
You know, like, did I put that
in your head and you know that

1318
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:13,280
make that happen or did you, you
know, or not going to happen

1319
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:14,080
anyway?
Yeah.

1320
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:15,720
Once you know, you got to
protect yourself.

1321
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:17,440
So that's where I am.
Well, I.

1322
01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:20,160
Wanted to, you know, one of the
things that came to mind to me

1323
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:25,520
about your this whole story
about this China, that about

1324
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:31,480
your band experience in China,
is there's such a really there's

1325
01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:37,240
such a fun value to like low
stakes, no consequence fun and

1326
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:39,360
whether that's jamming or
whether that's open mics or

1327
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:40,640
whether it's doing things like
that.

1328
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:43,760
You know, I I think we've I
think that, you know, if you

1329
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,000
look back to some of the best
shows that people talk about or

1330
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:48,960
some of the best bands or
concerts, a lot of them happen

1331
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:51,120
in these like smaller
environments before the bands

1332
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:53,320
get enormous and before they
start filling stadiums.

1333
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:56,640
Like you hear about a great
performance at the you know, a

1334
01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:59,760
club, you are a little like, you
know, fifty person, you know,

1335
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:07,000
venue, whatever it is, And I
feel like I I and and there's so

1336
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:09,520
many opportunities.
I think I I feel that people can

1337
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:13,880
have to kind of make this magic
happen on a regular basis and

1338
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:15,720
all you got to do is just get
out there, make it happen.

1339
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:18,040
We feel like, oh, well, that's
not really this kind of world

1340
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:19,200
anymore.
Like we don't really have that

1341
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:22,040
anymore, But I think your story
indicates that we do have that.

1342
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:23,640
And I I think it's really
exciting.

1343
01:15:24,480 --> 01:15:25,800
Yeah, thank you.
I'm looking.

1344
01:15:26,440 --> 01:15:30,240
I was looking for a place, can't
quite find it.

1345
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:32,480
And this is my book.
I wrote about it, the experience

1346
01:15:32,480 --> 01:15:34,840
called Big in China.
We.

1347
01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:41,480
Yeah.
OK, I'll, I'll, I'll read you a

1348
01:15:41,480 --> 01:15:44,000
little bit of this.
This was the place we ended up

1349
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:48,120
playing called Jung Hu Juba
downtown.

1350
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:50,440
And I realized it took me a
while to realize this, that

1351
01:15:50,440 --> 01:15:55,160
Woody was happy to play out in
the expat places, but he didn't

1352
01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:58,600
start booking us gigs downtown
with the Chinese people that he

1353
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:01,520
knew until he felt like the age
1.

1354
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:04,240
Yeah.
But this place was amazing.

1355
01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:07,440
It was actually owned by
musicians, A couple of the guys

1356
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:10,400
who were in that band that I
jammed with that that first

1357
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:12,480
night.
You say you entered.

1358
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:16,000
You entered Jung Hu through a
small stone entryway covered in

1359
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:19,120
the colder months with a heavy
blanket, and walked down a short

1360
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:21,920
hallway into a charming
courtyard filled with a few

1361
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:24,880
picnic tables.
The bar nestled against the back

1362
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:28,240
wall to the left was a small
room with a foosball game and a

1363
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:31,720
few tables occupied by young,
hip Chinese who are playing

1364
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:35,440
cards, strumming acoustic
guitars, sipping tea or beer and

1365
01:16:35,440 --> 01:16:38,360
smoking like chimneys.
To the right of the courtyard,

1366
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:41,320
through a French door, was a
rectangular room that could

1367
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:44,600
squeeze in 50 people.
A tiny stage was in front.

1368
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:47,120
There were no toilets.
To relieve yourself, you had to

1369
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:50,400
walk 20 yards down the dark
coupon to public facilities.

1370
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:54,480
The owner was Woody's former
bandmate, a happy go lucky hit,

1371
01:16:54,480 --> 01:17:02,840
the saxophonist named Tian Chow.
So eventually and we became like

1372
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:05,120
the house band there as much as
we could.

1373
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:08,040
And there was one night we
played there on their first

1374
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:12,040
anniversary party and and all
these there was like a famous

1375
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:14,160
Chinese musician.
They were got up and jammed with

1376
01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:17,240
us and band was just cooking.
It was so good.

1377
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:21,880
And I remember thinking after I
was like, I always wanted to

1378
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:25,320
find like the great band in the
cool little place.

1379
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:30,080
And now I am the great band.
That was incredible.

1380
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:32,640
That was one of the first you
better not look down if you want

1381
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:37,400
to keep them flying moments.
And and that night, that

1382
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:41,600
anniversary night we had to end,
they wanted us to keep playing

1383
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:47,360
because our bass player had like
a, a good paying gig that he had

1384
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:49,120
to go off to until he made his
money.

1385
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:52,240
And we're like, well, we're
going to have to wrap this up

1386
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:54,720
because.
And a guy in the crowd was like,

1387
01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:56,280
I can.
Play bass.

1388
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:00,240
A random guy got up and played
with a couple songs with us.

1389
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:02,880
It was just stuff like that.
It was, it was really, really

1390
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:05,640
fun.
And you know, I feel really

1391
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:08,680
lucky to have had that
experience and to have brought.

1392
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:13,240
And when I came back to America,
I wrote the book Big in China.

1393
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:16,880
And you know, I've been a little
bit off of writing about the

1394
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:19,040
other music stuff.
I mean, I never stopped, but it

1395
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:20,720
certainly was doing a lot less
of it.

1396
01:18:21,440 --> 01:18:25,280
And it was cool to have been
live it instead of write about

1397
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:27,800
it.
And then that opened up a lot of

1398
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:32,040
doors for me because for a lot
of reasons, I but in a very

1399
01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:35,560
direct way.
Butch Trucks read my book Big in

1400
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:37,840
China and loved it.
And they're nice.

1401
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:40,880
They're about turning the guys
on to The Allman Brothers.

1402
01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:43,760
Yeah.
Because of that, a year or so

1403
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:47,640
later when I started proposing
to do One Way Out, Butch was

1404
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:50,160
really supportive of me and a
big help and.

1405
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:53,360
Wow, awesome and.
So what's he, what's he like?

1406
01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:58,960
Well, but Butch was a complex
guy.

1407
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:04,680
He, he was very smart.
I mean very well read, very

1408
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:09,920
knowledgeable about physics,
about philosophy, about a lot of

1409
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,280
things.
He had great ideas.

1410
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,240
You know, he started Mugus,
which was like a streaming

1411
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:19,080
service and streamed the 2000, I
think 8:00 and 9:00 all my

1412
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:22,360
brothers runs at the Beacon.
And it totally flopped as a

1413
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:26,520
business, partly because it was
just really expensive to run and

1414
01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:30,000
it wasn't people didn't quite
have enough broadband yet not or

1415
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:34,360
wasn't widespread enough.
But I mean, basically he started

1416
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:37,640
nugs.net.
I don't know when they started,

1417
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:40,760
but a bunch of years before that
I think 2:00. 1011 or 12 years

1418
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:42,760
12 he.
He had great ideas.

1419
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:45,520
He was smart.
He had a, a really bad temper,

1420
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:51,200
you know, so that was like the,
the, the, the, the downs, the,

1421
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:53,920
the, the negative sides of
Butcher, just that he, he really

1422
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:58,320
had a bad temper, which he he
got really mad at me after we

1423
01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:03,080
had gotten really quite close.
And from about 2015 to 16, he

1424
01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:06,240
didn't talk to me.
And it was over something that

1425
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:11,280
was really silly in my mind.
I did I was in the wrong,

1426
01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:13,920
something I left out of the book
that he finally realized.

1427
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:16,760
But it was a very minor thing
that could have been addressed

1428
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:20,120
in a conversation.
But that was that was how Butch

1429
01:20:20,120 --> 01:20:21,640
could be.
And luckily.

1430
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:24,440
That all ended and we had some
really nice time together in the

1431
01:20:24,440 --> 01:20:27,840
last year they had he, you know,
he put together the band that

1432
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:32,360
became late Breyers, which was
put and J MO and Mark Quinagas

1433
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:34,080
and Otil.
So the whole Allman Brothers

1434
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:39,360
rhythm section with Jack Pearson
and Bruce Katz and keyboards and

1435
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:42,200
my friend Lamar Williams Junior,
which I really got to know.

1436
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:46,040
Lamar and I went on the road
with them a few times and rode

1437
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:48,720
the bus and we had some great
times.

1438
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:53,240
And I'm, I'm very, very thankful
that I that I did and that Butch

1439
01:20:53,240 --> 01:20:56,880
and I were on very good terms
when he passed away.

1440
01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:00,120
And his death was shocking to me
and UPS.

1441
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:02,840
It still is.
You know, he died by suicide.

1442
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:06,360
Nobody.
I didn't know that.

1443
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:09,440
Yeah.
There was no sense that that was

1444
01:21:09,440 --> 01:21:11,280
imminent.
Nobody wasn't what?

1445
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:14,360
One of those things.
I think it was an impulsive act.

1446
01:21:15,080 --> 01:21:17,280
He had a gun.
It's another reason that I don't

1447
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:18,800
think people should have guns in
their house.

1448
01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:22,120
And Butch wasn't a big gun guy.
He wasn't that kind of guy.

1449
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:23,880
Actually.
Nobody really knew he had a gun.

1450
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:27,560
Like he had it just in a dorsum
or it wasn't, it wasn't like a

1451
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:32,440
gun guy.
So yeah, it's, it's still really

1452
01:21:32,440 --> 01:21:36,680
upsetting to me.
And it's just like any suicide

1453
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:40,680
leaves the people behind with so
many questions and feelings to

1454
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:43,360
kill, you know?
So yeah.

1455
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:45,320
Yeah.
I even look back at the year

1456
01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:48,680
that he was so mad at me.
It's like maybe I should have

1457
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:51,000
been more, you know, that not
that had nothing to do with

1458
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,200
anything, but you just start
looking back and questioning

1459
01:21:54,200 --> 01:21:56,960
every interaction and
relationship.

1460
01:21:57,480 --> 01:22:02,800
And I certainly wish that he had
known how much support there was

1461
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:06,160
for him and and the outpouring
that happened when he died.

1462
01:22:06,640 --> 01:22:09,960
And I wish there was some way he
could have seen that while he

1463
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:11,600
was alive.
You know, I wish I could have

1464
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:14,600
written some big article about
him like that, a video him or

1465
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:16,360
what, whatever.
That would have gotten a lot of

1466
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:18,200
attention.
Let him see how much people

1467
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:19,560
loved him.
Yeah.

1468
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:23,680
So.
And a personal level, I personal

1469
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:27,200
belief is that, you know, I, I
do believe in, in some in that,

1470
01:22:27,200 --> 01:22:30,080
that, you know, when you close
our eyes here, that, that, you

1471
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:31,240
know, that's not the end of it
all.

1472
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:35,960
And I, you know, so I, I, I, I,
I, I personally don't feel, I

1473
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:39,680
feel like when that happens that
people do see that, you know,

1474
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:41,960
especially if there's an outcry
of love and outpour of love.

1475
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:46,480
But unfortunately, we the living
never get, we living here never

1476
01:22:46,480 --> 01:22:49,320
get to never comfort in the same
way.

1477
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:54,320
Yeah, exactly.
You know, this is really been so

1478
01:22:54,320 --> 01:22:58,560
much fun.
I had such a pleasure hearing

1479
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:00,760
you.
I I not only your story, but

1480
01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:03,400
also getting some of your
perspective on things, I think

1481
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:05,440
is a lot of fun and really,
really interesting and you gave

1482
01:23:05,440 --> 01:23:08,320
me a lot to think about and
it's.

1483
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:12,360
We'll touch base again.
We'll be back when when I have

1484
01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:14,080
the next book ready.
I'm.

1485
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:15,600
Looking forward to it.
I think it's going to be, I'm

1486
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:18,280
really excited about it and
hopefully you can hustle it out

1487
01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:19,600
as quickly as possible.
I'm.

1488
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:21,720
Working on it.
Yes Sir.

1489
01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:23,520
Thanks.
And I take care.

1490
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:24,600
Thank you so much.
You're.

1491
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:25,320
Welcome.
Bye.