Education Series 3: Dan Fitzpatrick The Ai Educator/ AI for Students / Learning to Learn

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and we're Live.
Dan Fitzpatrick, thanks so much

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for coming on.
I really appreciate it.

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Yeah, it's great to be with you.
And yeah, it's great to see

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sunny Florida in the background.
It's as you can probably tell

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here, it's it's rainy England.
So it's it's nice to partake in

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in the sunshine virtually.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

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It's what do you call it this
time of year?

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It's already, it's already, it's
already been cold, huh, For a

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couple of weeks now.
Yeah, probably, probably, yeah,

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about two weeks or so.
I was, I was working in

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Kazakhstan last week and that,
that was a lot colder.

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So I'm, I'm actually happy to be
back in this.

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This.
It feels a bit feels warmer, but

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it's it's a type of weather
where we can put the the fire on

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in the house.
Yeah.

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And so I love that because, I
mean, it feels really cozy.

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Yeah.
That's right, That's right.

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What are you doing, Kazakhstan?
I was I was keynote in the

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conference on on AI.
So I was but it but doing lots

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of things.
So I, that was why I was there.

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But I got to, I had meetings
with their, their government

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about, about artificial
intelligence and got to meet

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some of the amazing innovation
that some of their students are

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doing.
So two guys, in fact, I wrote a

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Forbes Article 2 days ago on
this, but I met two students, I

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think they were, they were about
14 or 15 years old.

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And they'd created a virtual
reality science lab that would

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recreate any type of scenario in
terms of absolutely phenomenal.

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And they've integrated an
artificial intelligence tutor to

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talk the, they're using an AI
voice to talk the students

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through what to do and how to do
it.

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Phenomenal created by the
students themselves.

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So I was kind of wanted to help
them out to try and get

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attention on them for that
project.

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Really.
So it's yeah, some some amazed.

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It's not.
I don't know about you guys in

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the States, but we don't really
hear about those, those

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countries like Kazakhstan and
Mongolia, like we, we just don't

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hear about them that much in the
news.

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So you, I mean, some of the
names of the countries around

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there I just didn't even know
existed.

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And but actually they're some of
those, some of those cities are

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really advanced and they,
they've got a lot of oil money.

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So they they can they can do
some really cool things.

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So yeah, it was a pleasure to go
somewhere completely different.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We, I, I, I, I've been, I've

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been noticing more and more.
And actually there's, I've been

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focusing also on my podcast
about learning more about other

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places because as an American,
we think that, you know, America

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takes up 95% of the world.
And then like, you know, maybe

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like 5% of the world goes to
like, you know, China and Europe

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and like, that's it, you know,
as far as like we're concerned.

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And it's a shame because there's
so much that other places have

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to offer and there's so much to
learn from different styles.

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And you know, we know that our
systems are not necessarily

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perfect, you know, and that's
actually why, you know, I've

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even reached out to begin with
because I, you know, so you,

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you, you really, and I'm sure,
please correct me, but you

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specialize in the combination of
education and implementation of

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AI into education, Is that
correct?

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Yeah, so I, I, I suppose I spend
a lot of my time writing.

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So I write books on on AI and
education.

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I write for Forbes and then the
the kind of the other half of my

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time I spend with schools, with,
with governments, with

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universities and some businesses
as well, like mainly Ed tech

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businesses, but helping them to
upskill, but then also to

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strategically integrate and to
and to strategically stop

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because we can get into this, I
guess.

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But I'm, I'm a big believer that
education, especially education

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systems around the world have
been on borrowed time for a

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long, for a long time anyway.
AI is just exasperating that.

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And so I, I, I see a big part of
my work is helping schools and

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governments actually not just
deal with AI, but CAI is the

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catalyst for more holes for, for
bigger change of those systems.

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Overhauling an old system it
feels like.

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Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah, so I actually teach high
school part time.

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I've been doing it in my 4th, my
4th year doing it.

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And, and I, I, one of the
reasons why I wanted to start

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teaching to begin with was
because I know that there's a

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lot of not great teachers out
there.

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And I, and I know that the, at
least in the states, the

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incentive structure and the
social incentive structure,

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financial and social do not
really lend themselves to

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encouraging great, charismatic
or fun teachers.

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You know, a lot of times and
even the set, the set the, and

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we could talk about this, the
actual setting of the classroom,

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you know, to have lines of desks
and have 14, you know, 13 to 18

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year olds sit for seven hours
and be told that they're bad or

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wrong or stupid.
If they, you know, if they're,

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if they can't do that for that
period of time.

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And I don't even know that
they're necessarily supposed to,

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you know, And so I wanted to be
able to kind of be able to help.

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And and if, if I could have, you
know, if I have a positive

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impact on even, you know, 15
students at a time, 20 students

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at a time, then I know it goes a
long way even for my own life,

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you know, having having
hopefully, you know, having had

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some good teachers in the past.
Yeah.

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Yeah, it's it's interesting
because I think I sometimes

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think we've we've engineered a
system that and actually there's

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some parallels here with the AI
really.

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So we've engineered a system
that to try and be as efficient

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as possible.
And I think one of the first

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rules of efficiency is control.
How do you control the

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situation?
So the first thing we do and I,

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I'm not sure about you, Efrain,
but when I was when I was

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trained to be a teacher, because
I was, I was a high school

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teacher too.
The first thing they teach you

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is how to control the class, how
to, and it makes sense because

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you've got thirty teenagers in
front of you.

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If you can't control them, then
you can't do anything with them.

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But I think there's some,
there's some kind of weird

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paradox there where actually
we're, we're saying that, well,

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in order to do schooling, first
of all, we must take control of,

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of the students.
And I think there's an inherent

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fault with that, that.
And, and I think it's just,

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it's, it's a symptom of a system
that is mass produced.

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So and I, and I, I'm, I'm, I'm
quite generous saying 30

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students in the class in the UK,
sometimes we can have 3540

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students in a class.
No, my teacher, yeah, because of

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teachers shortages.
Shortages.

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Yeah, absolutely.
And so of course you need to

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control, but as soon as you
start controlling you, you kind

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of squash curiosity, you squash
student LED learning and then

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and then you follow things
through and you go right, well,

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what's the most efficient way to
get through that hour?

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You put the you put the tables
in rows.

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You have the teacher stood at
the front.

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You and I feel like we've just
really, really made a system

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that that is efficient at
getting to success, but success

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defined by the system, which I
don't think is necessarily what

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true success should be.
So yeah, it kind of makes sense

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in a way how we've done it, but
I just think the system isn't

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entirely relevant now.
And yeah, I think I think we've

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got, we're going to have to do
something new and there's going

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to have to be a lot more options
and variety, which I think we're

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starting to see as well.
We're starting to see these,

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these new experimental schools
pop up in places on on in the

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UK, the fastest growing school
at the moment is an online

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school.
So on.

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I know in the States you guys
have had online schools for a

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while now, but they're, they're
quite new here in the UK.

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So I, I, I, I'm optimistic, but
I, I do fear for the system

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sometimes and that it, that it's
not going to be able to cope

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with the, the democratization
of, of so much ability that that

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AI brings to us and our
students.

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Yeah, Yeah, that's a great,
that's a great way of putting

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it.
One of the things that I've

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think that I personally
observed, I think or that you

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know, anecdotally at least, is
that is that my students and

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students in general are kind of
taught to be cogs and to

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understand that they have a good
place and apart.

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And like almost like to be a
cookie cutter and creativity and

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like your own taking your own
way of doing things is not

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encouraged.
And not only, and probably

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again, for the reasons that we
talked about, you have 30

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students.
It's very hard to let for one

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teacher to pay different
attention in an hour to 30

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different students, right?
And that's kind of what the

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issue, one of the issues stems
from.

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But I think that in the world
that will, and perhaps you can

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clarify your thoughts on some of
this too.

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But I think in the world of AI
in the future, the I think that

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generalized knowledge and like,
like for to have a lot of

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knowledge, a little bit of
knowledge in a lot of different

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areas.
And then to learn how to use AI

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like a companion to help you
dive deeper into whatever

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direction and whatever rabbit
hole you want to go down or

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whatever skill you want to learn
to advance would be a far more

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effective system for someone
growing up in the world today.

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Because a lot of jobs that we're
training people for now are

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going to be irrelevant.
You know, I mean, we're teaching

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people how to work in factories
still when we have everything is

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being robotic, you know, or
you're teaching, you know,

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people how to be doctors when
AI, you know, does X amount, you

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know, diagnosis X amount more
successfully than you know,

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human doctors do.
And we haven't and we kind of

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just like clinging to this like
familiar notion.

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And I think part of the reason
why is because education is so

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deep rooted in society.
We don't really know how to how

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to, how to gauge someone without
that, right.

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So you have an, if you have an
employee that you're looking for

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that you know, how, how you know
whether you want to hire them or

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not.
A lot of what you look at is how

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they did in school, how they do
in college, how they get, how

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they do in their grades, you
know, and but a lot of that,

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what they picked up in that
doesn't necessarily correspond

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to the type of responsibilities
they'll need in a modern day

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workforce, you know?
Yeah.

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And it's crazy, isn't it,
because we at some point in

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time, we went into an exam hall
and we, we did, we did an exam

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and now we carry that grade with
us for the rest of our lives.

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We got to carry that ABCDEF for
the rest of our lives.

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And, and it's, it's a reflection
on, on a, on a tiny moment in

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our lives where we could have
been, we could have had a bad

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night the night before.
We could have just been having a

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really crap year.
We could have.

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And then all of a sudden that
labels us for the rest of our

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lives.
And I think, I think it's just

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not first of all, I don't think
it's a fairway to, to, to define

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success when it comes to
education.

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And I think, I think touching on
some of the what you just said

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as well, like kind of what do we
learn?

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What, what should we learn in
education?

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And I think we've, the way
education, I feel like has been

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created over the last few 100
years is that we're almost, we

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want to give everyone the
knowledge of, of the world.

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So it's like, right, let's teach
them everything there is to know

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about geography, everything
there is to know about history,

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everything about biology up up
to a certain degree, up to a

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certain level.
But I kind of think we keep

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adding to that.
So like in the UK about 10 years

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ago, a bit longer, actually 15
years ago, kind of a whole third

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was added onto the curriculum.
And, and therefore it, it kind

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of coming back to what we said
earlier, it the teachers and the

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school systems don't have any
choice but to be try and be as

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efficient as possible just now
just to get through that much

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content.
And it, it kind of cocks back to

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a, a world where at the school
was the, the authority on

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knowledge did have, wasn't the
gatekeeper on, on knowledge.

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But that's, that hasn't been the
case for a long time now.

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And I, I think like you're
saying as well, they, if we can

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teach them how to collaborate
with technology to, to be

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inquisitive, to learn, then we,
we, we will soon realise we

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don't have to teach them
everything.

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We just need to teach them
enough to, to, for them to go

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and enjoy continuing to learn
themselves, whether that be with

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AI, whether it be with Google,
whether it be with books, a

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library, whatever it might be.
But I just, I think once you

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start to do that, you let go of
control because you then have to

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start admitting that, well,
students can learn elsewhere.

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It might be even be able to
learn better elsewhere.

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And I think once you start
getting into that territory as a

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school system, you it gets
scary.

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It gets scary.
And in fact, I just wrote a

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piece on LinkedIn this morning
saying get called, get out of

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the way about how we, we need to
get out of the way of our

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students and not think that we
know what's best all of the time

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for them.
And we know what they should be

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learning all of the time.
But actually give them the tools

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to, to get curious, to want to
learn.

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And then just step out the way
every, even if it's just one day

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a week, like step out the way
and see what they can do, see

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what they.
But yeah, I think we've, I think

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AI coming back to AI, I think AI
is kind of exposing this a bit

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more than than we're used to.
And I think that's the situation

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we're in at the moment where now
schools are starting to think

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well and universities as well.
I guess how do we lock this down

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and not let AI ruin what what
we've got, the systems we've got

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where I think we should be
thinking the other way around,

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like how how can we use this as
an opportunity to to prepare our

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students for this world?
Do you think it's?

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Just a generational thing, you
think it's just like sometimes

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you have to just kind of let the
course of like old school

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teachers kind of, you know,
recycle.

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And then you have the younger
generation that's more because,

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you know, at a certain point
that's kind of what it has to

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be.
And you know, and I think that

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if institutions hang on too
long, then people reject it and

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go somewhere else.
You know, for example, I was

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even with the podcast space,
right?

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Like there were gatekeepers of
information for, you know,

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decades that, you know, there
was systematic distrust, you

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know, almost on like universal
level, I'd say in the last half,

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you know, half a decade or so
since around, you know, 19,

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2019-2020 ish.
And, and you know, and you can

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either kind of fight the fact
that, you know, that, hey, you

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know, people are learning a lot
or getting a lot of news and

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information and new
understandings and perspectives

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from podcast, or you can kind of
just try to be a gatekeeper and

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try to hold people back.
But I think at a certain point

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it's going to happen one way or
another, you know?

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And so, so the question just
kind of becomes like, you know,

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are you going to be willing to
embrace that?

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You're just going to hang on
until you're, you know, until

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you can't anymore, you know?
Yeah, yeah, you kind of, you

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reminded me of, there's a
Planck's quote where you said

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science advances one funeral at
a time.

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And, and his whole point is you
don't get changes to science

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until the the gatekeepers
actually actually die.

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Yeah, I don't know.
I just think I I think I even

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say this attitude from students
sometimes that because it's the

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only system we know, then of
course I think of sometimes I

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think of course AI is bad for
the system.

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00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,840
Of course it is.
It's going to make you, oh, if,

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00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,200
if you're, if you, if you want
to use it this way, it's going

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00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,520
to help you cheat.
It's going to help you do some,

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00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,040
do some things that are
dishonest.

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00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,320
It's going to help you like it's
bad for the current system.

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It really is.
And if, if all you know is the

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00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:10,119
current system, then of course
you're going to want to hold it

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00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:11,839
at arm's length.
You might want to ban it.

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00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:15,599
You might want to say this is
bad for me, of course it is.

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00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:19,040
But I, I think we need to step,
take a step back further than

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that and go right, what actually
is?

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00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:24,960
Could we do the system better
here?

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00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,040
Could we, could we change what
we do and make it a bit better

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00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,320
so that actually AI is a part of
that and we can collaborate with

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00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,480
it.
And but I think it's about, it's

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00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,320
about true innovation, I think,
and something that I don't think

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00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,360
education has gone through.
Not a very Valentine, yeah?

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00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,720
Yeah, yeah, I, I think that you
hit the nail on the head earlier

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00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,760
with also the notion of learning
how to learn.

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00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:53,440
You know, anecdotally, again,
you know, I'm, I'm Orthodox Jew

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00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,600
and, you know, I went to
seminary after high school to

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00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,760
learn, to spend some time
learning about Judaism.

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00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,840
And, you know, it's very common,
you know, for Orthodox Jews to,

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00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:06,600
to spend some time in a seminary
at some point in their lives and

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00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,600
just, you know, learn some
foundational texts and stuff.

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00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,920
And one thing that I, yeah, that
I realized was I'm, you know,

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00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,280
I'm likely going to go, I'm
going to college.

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I'm going to a college campus
somewhere.

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00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,240
And I'm going to, you know,
there's certain students whose

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00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,040
philosophy when it came to this
was I want to learn enough to be

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00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,280
able to protect me, you know, so
I can maintain my values while

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00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,120
I'm in another world, right?
You know, the world that doesn't

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00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:32,320
necessarily value the same
things that I do.

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00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:33,960
But, you know, I want to be able
to be strong enough.

320
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:35,840
And so I'm going to learn the
foundation, you know, and I

321
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,440
realized when I was when I was
there, I was about 1819 years

322
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,440
old, that there's no 1819 years
old.

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00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,960
There's no way I'm going to
learn enough to carry me through

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00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,240
the rest of my life.
And I realized that the, the

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00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,960
value was learning how to
continue learning and where to

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00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,320
look to keep on learning, you
know, and so to not look at this

327
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,600
point of my life like this, I'm
accumulating X amount of

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00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,720
knowledge that I'm going to,
that's all I'm going to have

329
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:01,000
forever.
And that's when I'm going to

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00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,720
draw on this whenever the
scenario comes up.

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Rather, I'm learning to learn
how to learn, learn how to

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think.
And so I could keep on building

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00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,240
my skills.
And I think that teachers are

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00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,920
used to being the, the people
that tell you how to tell you

335
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,040
what you know, you know, as
opposed to helping you figure

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00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,800
out how to think and how to
learn, you know, And so AI is

337
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,320
helping us.
Hey, you want to, I think the

338
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,240
much more important tool to use
would be how do I prompt AI

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00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,240
properly?
How do I, how do I find out

340
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:30,480
whether AI is telling me the
truth?

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00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,920
How do I find sourcing for the
information that it's presented

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00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,120
to me?
So I could find out whether it's

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00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:35,920
real or not.
And then I could kind of build

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00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:37,920
my own knowledge and whatever
I'm whatever I want to dive

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00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,120
into, you know, and if someone
is interested in engineering,

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00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:43,520
for example, or history, it's
really important to you.

347
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,480
But I think that they could, to
be able to use AI as a companion

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00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:51,800
tool can help you learn to learn
forever, you know, and you never

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00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,240
stop.
And the amount that you could,

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00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,480
the amount that you could create
and the amount that you can, you

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00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,720
know, accomplish.
I mean, with my podcast, for

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00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,480
example, I learned, I started
integrating AI to help me find

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00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,320
guests.
I want to talk to people about

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00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,200
AI ethics and education.
Give me 10 contacts with people

355
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,080
that XY and Z in the industry
and with the e-mail addresses,

356
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,280
please.
That's how I found you, right?

357
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,480
And what it took me for the
first six months of my podcast,

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20 hours a week takes me 5 now
you know, and, and the other and

359
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:20,520
the other 15 hours.
I'm so much more productive

360
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,160
because I'm dedicating it to
things that I can do, the only I

361
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,080
can do.
The AI is doing what AI needs to

362
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:27,880
do, and I'm doing what I need to
do by having these

363
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:33,840
conversations, you know?
Yeah, it's, I think you touched

364
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,960
on something really important
and I was thinking about this

365
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:43,120
last week about, OK, clearly we
can outsource some of what we do

366
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:47,880
now to AI, but we need to make
decisions about what we

367
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,680
outsource and, and what we.
And I think that's going to be

368
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,920
different for different people
like like you yourself doing

369
00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:58,280
getting 10 guests for your
podcast.

370
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,640
I think, I think some people, I
think some people might be like,

371
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,320
oh, well, I, I run a podcast and
I want to know, I want to I want

372
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,120
to do the research.
That's the fun part.

373
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That's what I enjoy doing.
I want to read someone's book

374
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:12,960
and then think, can I get them
on the podcast?

375
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,600
Whatever.
And then but like you yourself,

376
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,600
you, you go, right, Well,
actually, I'm going to get AI to

377
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,800
help me do some of this research
and give me some insights.

378
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,840
Somebody in the middle might
actually employ somebody who

379
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,640
does what that AIAI did for you.
And, and I think there's a whole

380
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,840
spectrum here.
And I think if there's one thing

381
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,400
that people love to do at the
moment is tell people what AI

382
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,480
should be doing for them, what
it shouldn't be doing for them.

383
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,120
And I think we've got to learn
this for ourselves.

384
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:49,960
I think especially as adults,
maybe we, maybe us, our young

385
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,520
people, our children need
guidance.

386
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,640
But I think as adults, we need
to figure this out because like

387
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,000
some things I think will just be
automated.

388
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:04,120
Like when I get in my car and I,
I put the SAT NAV on, it takes

389
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:09,320
me where I need to be.
I I don't sit there and lament

390
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:15,000
not having them up skills and to
be able to, of course, I don't

391
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,760
like it means I can now listen
to some amazing podcasts.

392
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:23,200
It means I can focus on chatting
with my family in the car.

393
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,760
It means I can just have some
peace and not not and just just

394
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,160
do some thinking while I'm
driving.

395
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:34,120
Like I, I love that fact that
that's been automated and I and

396
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:38,960
I don't miss map skills at all.
Not, not in the slightest.

397
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,960
And, and so I, I think we've,
we've got to be really clever

398
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,200
with this and use this in a way
that, that is going to benefit

399
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,800
us personally.
Then I think going back to our

400
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,840
children in the education
system, I think we've got to

401
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,520
give them the, the choice to a
certain extent as well and go,

402
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,440
right.
If this is, this is what AI can

403
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:08,080
do for us, how can we, how can
we use this to boost who we are,

404
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:15,400
to boost our, our potential in
the world, I guess, and get them

405
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,080
to, in a certain extent, figure
that out for themselves as well.

406
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,800
And, and, and I think that that
whole like lifelong learning,

407
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,400
I'm always telling my, I know
before we went live, we were

408
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,840
talking about our kids and, and
I've got a 5 and a six year old

409
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,080
and I, I think I say to them
probably on a daily basis, like,

410
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,800
you've got to keep learning.
You've got to keep like school's

411
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,640
not the only place you learn.
You've got to, you'll be

412
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,680
learning forever.
And the people who do do succeed

413
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,120
in life are the ones who
continue to learn and see life

414
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,200
as, as a learning journey.
And now we've got a tool that

415
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,440
helps us do that pretty much all
of the time.

416
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,880
And I think that's going to get
better and better and better.

417
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,320
But yeah, it's, it's, it's a new
world that we, we have to try

418
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,080
and figure out.
But I think we have, I think

419
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,800
there's there's going to be a
lot more opportunities than

420
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,600
there were before.
Yeah, So what are some what are

421
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,800
some upsides and downsides or
some benefits and dangers,

422
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,600
especially especially in that
education world?

423
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,680
You know, I mean, I keep on
hearing, you know, on one hand,

424
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,440
again, we've talked about a lot
of benefits.

425
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,880
On the other hand, I think that
there is something, you know,

426
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,880
one of the things I tell also my
students like how come this

427
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,320
matters?
What if this doesn't matter to

428
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:32,160
my life?
How come it's not?

429
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,120
What if it's not relevant?
How come I have to learn this

430
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:36,240
right?
A lot of times I'll be like a,

431
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,560
it will be but or B, even if it
isn't the almost the learning

432
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,800
how to the construction of these
ideas in your head is really

433
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,840
valuable.
You know, I'm learning how to

434
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:49,720
create the understand that
there's a process or, you know,

435
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,560
understand and to learn how to
build on complex ideas is

436
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,560
really, really important.
Do you think that AI would

437
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,880
shortchange or could shortchange
that, you know, that kind of

438
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,160
constructive creative process
that our heads have?

439
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:08,880
Yeah, 100%.
Let me tell you the story of AII

440
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:15,080
interviewed a high schooler for
an article I did and a guy in

441
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:20,400
San Diego and we were talking
about how how students in high

442
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,480
school use AI.
And it was interesting because

443
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,520
his school from the outside have
have ticked every box.

444
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:34,240
So they they have an AI policy.
They do, They do professional

445
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,320
development with their staff
around artificial intelligence.

446
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,720
They do AI literacy classes with
their students kind of like

447
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,200
everything, everything you, you
would hope that a forward

448
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,600
thinking school would be doing
in terms of AI right now they're

449
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,720
doing.
However, this high school

450
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,680
student told me that they are
still using AI to do their their

451
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,720
homework and to cut corners.
And when, when we talked about

452
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,960
this, there was it was
interesting because there was a

453
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,120
couple of things that, that they
said.

454
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:09,000
And one of the things was that
they think that the, that the

455
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,440
teachers know they use an AI.
But because there are just so

456
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,400
many students using AI, the
teachers turn a blind eye

457
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,680
because if they were to
investigate every single

458
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,880
instance, they would never go
home.

459
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:24,880
They would be working
constantly.

460
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:28,600
So teachers are almost being
forced to turn a blind eye to

461
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,800
this.
Secondly, it's very, very easy

462
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:36,160
to manipulate something that you
get from AI to make it sound

463
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,960
natural and make it sound like
it's your own work and, and,

464
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,800
and, and to kind of slip through
that that net.

465
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,800
But I think thirdly, the the
most revealing thing I found was

466
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,400
that he was very honest with me.
He just said, look, homework

467
00:26:54,400 --> 00:27:00,000
especially is a hurdle that a
student has to get through on an

468
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,880
evening.
So they might come home, they

469
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,160
they want to go see their
friends, they then have dinner

470
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,840
with their family.
They want to go on the Xbox and

471
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,840
talk to their friends while
playing some games for an hour

472
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,120
home. 3 bits of homework has to
be fitted in to that, to those

473
00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:20,880
few hours on an evening.
And so that just becomes a

474
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,680
hurdle to get over and just like
adults, if you've got to get

475
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,000
over an admin task, you, you
look for shortcuts.

476
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,720
And so in the in the biggest
shortcut at the moment is

477
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,160
getting AI to do before you and
I.

478
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:42,040
And it really made me think just
how much of of the work we give

479
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,920
our students is just an admin
hurdle to them.

480
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,000
There's no and if you like, if
you think like, if you like when

481
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,000
I was when I was teaching and
when I was a student myself, you

482
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,800
every lesson is just another
every class.

483
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:58,920
You might have four or five
classes that day.

484
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:00,640
You're just getting through
them.

485
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,120
Like you, your brain will is
going to engage in it and but

486
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:07,040
you're still thinking right at
the end.

487
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,120
At the end of the hour, the
Bell's going to go.

488
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:14,720
I'm on to the next, next class.
It's they're hurdles to get

489
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,760
over.
And I think, I think now it's

490
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,120
that's not a problem with the
student, it's a problem with

491
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,880
with an outdated system now.
And I think we're going to have

492
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:30,000
to start thinking, how do we
give our students work to do?

493
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,520
How do we engage our students in
some work that they find

494
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:39,760
meaningful that they actually
want to want to complete because

495
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,240
we just aren't doing that at the
moment.

496
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,720
And, and if, if we actually want
them to exert some cognitive

497
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,280
effort, then we're going to have
to get them excited about it.

498
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,760
We're going to have to make it
relevant.

499
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,600
We're going to have to get, get,
let them see the meaning of it.

500
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,960
We're, we've got so much to do
rather than just hear some work,

501
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,400
do it.
And we've got to make, we've got

502
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,040
to make what we're doing
actually relevant and meaningful

503
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,840
and, and build the curiosity to
go with it.

504
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:14,040
So I think, I think absolutely
AI kind of going back to the

505
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,400
start really of the
conversation, I think AI can can

506
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:23,040
be a negative, but I think
that's not the fault of the

507
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,080
student.
I think we just, I think we have

508
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,520
to stop being a bit more
creative with, with the kind of

509
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,040
work we do with them, I think.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that I

510
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,920
think you're right.
I think if students look at the

511
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,920
problem is actually I had this
I, you know, I teach because I

512
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,880
want to right Teach because I
think it's important, it's fun.

513
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,200
And so I would go for years,
right?

514
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,440
The first, the first 2 1/2 years
that I was teaching, I'd go in

515
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,000
and put a lot of effort.
And especially, you know, I do

516
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,080
the podcast and I have a sales
job and I got a family and I

517
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,520
have a lot.
I'm always running around and I

518
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,960
always try to put time to making
sure that the classes, if the

519
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,560
classes, if the students do not
respond, I typically take the

520
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,960
blame and say, it's guys.
I know that you guys.

521
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,960
Yeah, it's a long day.
I'm obviously not presenting

522
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,240
this in a way that's speaking to
you guys.

523
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,040
And it's because I could have
done more effort, you know, I

524
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,120
could have put more effort into
this.

525
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,120
I'm sorry.
If you guys could please work

526
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,760
with me just for the rest of the
day today.

527
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,680
I promise that tomorrow's class
is going to be a lot more

528
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,200
engaging, you know, and but one
thing I realized was, and it was

529
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,360
such a crazy realization, it
took me so long to realize was

530
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,440
I'm there because I want to be.
No one there is there because

531
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:25,760
they want to be.
They're all there because they

532
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,520
have to, you know, and I was
and, and so, you know, at a

533
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,240
certain point I was able to
actually build up a certain

534
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,040
amount of trust my students
where I said, listen, I think

535
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,680
autonomy is really important in
your life.

536
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,360
New schedule, you know, I think
that you feel like you have

537
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,880
control over the way that you
spend at least some of your time

538
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,360
is really important.
I was like, I will, I will give

539
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,200
you if you guys come to me the
beginning of the week and tell

540
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,600
me, hey, I don't want to come to
class this week, but can you

541
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,280
give me assignments to do on my
own time?

542
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,200
You know that I will, I will be
responsible about I was like, I

543
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,840
have to get to know you guys and
you have to show me that it's

544
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,600
worth it.
But if that's the case, you

545
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,000
don't have to come in and sit
behind a desk for 45 minutes and

546
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,760
you can do what you want with
that time as long as you get me

547
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:05,600
the work by XY and Z time or
date, you know, and, and to my

548
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,880
surprise, all 20 students
decided to come back every

549
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,400
single day, you know, almost,
and you know, every now and then

550
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,080
one or two students would come
to me and say, hey, today, I

551
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,640
need a break today.
Can you give me some makeup work

552
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,840
to do?
But I think once they, once they

553
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,880
realized and they felt like this
isn't a like this isn't

554
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,800
something we have to do.
This is something that we could

555
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,320
do if we like it.
You know, everything kind of

556
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,000
changed overnight, you know, and
it was really, really cool.

557
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,720
Do you so are you, are you
proponents of homework now that

558
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,400
we're talking about, you know,
that or you think that projects

559
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,160
are probably better or, you
know, like longer term creative

560
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,120
engaging assignments is probably
better or depends for the class

561
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,840
or what do you think?
Yeah, I.

562
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,880
On the homework question, I'm,
I'm, I'm not really sure because

563
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,920
I think, I think is if I'm
looking at it from like a

564
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:58,120
complete democratic point of
view, I think homework just

565
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,160
widens the gap because not, not
every student's home life is the

566
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,600
same.
Not every student's parents are

567
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,760
the same.
So what you're essentially when

568
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,400
you give homework, you're
essentially saying, right, if

569
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,800
you come from a family that is
motivated and want to help you

570
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:21,200
learn, then you can get a head
start here because the family's

571
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,960
going to help them.
They're going to, they're going

572
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,360
to make sure they get the
homework done.

573
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,320
They're going to make sure they
see it as important and so on.

574
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,960
Whereas a family that doesn't do
that, that student's going to be

575
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,520
left behind.
Interestingly, I also think the

576
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,440
same about AI as well.
So I, I think I, I've got a

577
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,880
friend and I wrote, I wrote
about him in my first book, The

578
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,680
AI Classroom, about how he
really struggled to help his

579
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,520
daughter with math work because
he just didn't understand it

580
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:53,480
himself.
And so he used ChatGPT as, as a

581
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,080
bit of a bit of a Co partner
with his daughter and they both,

582
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,840
they all the both of them learn
together with ChatGPT and it

583
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,840
really, really boosted her
skills and she went on to win an

584
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:11,480
award for math because of it.
So I, I think with homework,

585
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,040
it's interesting because I think
my kids, even if they didn't get

586
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,680
homework, I'd probably still
work with them on various

587
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,640
things.
So we, we probably can't close

588
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:28,440
that gap anyway.
But yeah, I think, I think we

589
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,120
have to look at the we have to
put the horse before the cart.

590
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,920
I think in terms of what we
learn and how we learn it, we've

591
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,400
kind of set up a system that
goes, right, let's learn all of

592
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:44,240
this stuff just in case, right?
We're going to learn how rocks

593
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,360
form.
We're going to learn how to cook

594
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,160
a pasta dish.
We're going to like, it's

595
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,200
literally like some crazy mix of
things every single day and

596
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,600
we're going to learn it all just
in case you might need to learn

597
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,720
it at some know it at some point
in the future.

598
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,600
And let's be real, how many
times have you had to know it?

599
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,960
Like 1% if that of the things
you learnt.

600
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:13,080
Whereas I think if we flip it
and go actually let's do

601
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,800
something which requires us to
learn those skills.

602
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,960
And I suppose that that does fit
into more the project based side

603
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,600
of things.
But if we go right, how do we, I

604
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,280
don't know.
Let's yeah, just, I don't know,

605
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,040
like I used to when I, when I
worked in, in, in secondary

606
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:38,560
schools, I, my other job was
also the careers coordinator for

607
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,920
the school.
And so we looked at like kind of

608
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,920
what, what local businesses,
what, what issues they were

609
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,480
having.
So like if there was, if there

610
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,639
was a local business that was
really having an issue with, I

611
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:56,639
don't know, getting customers to
buy their their chips, maybe

612
00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:59,080
it's a, it's a chip company and
then they're getting customers

613
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,240
to buy their chips and they're
really struggling.

614
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:03,800
They're not as popular as they
used as they used to be in the

615
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,680
90s.
Sales are going down, right?

616
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,000
Let's get some students on that
and let's think we'll visit the

617
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,880
fact, we'll visit the factory.
We'll have a look at, we'll get

618
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,680
to understand the business and
then we'll go right.

619
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,280
Well, what skills are we going
to need?

620
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,880
Well, we're going to need, we're
going to need some financial

621
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,000
skills to understand these
financial documents.

622
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,400
We're going to need some
marketing skills.

623
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:32,200
We're going to need some skills
on how how humans work with each

624
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:33,560
other.
A whole hosting.

625
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:38,080
So I think, yeah, I'm always
reminded by a guy called Rob

626
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:43,040
Hoban, who who was the the
manager of a school in the

627
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,240
Netherlands called Agora.
And on the first day that a

628
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:51,840
student starts their school, the
first question they ask them is

629
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,000
what do you want to do?
And then and then, so if a

630
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,360
student says, right, I want to,
I want to make a skateboard, I'm

631
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,160
in the skateboard and I want to
make a skateboard.

632
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,080
Then their whole school is set
up so that they, they have a

633
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:11,120
project manager who will, who
will help meet with them every

634
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:12,760
day.
Say, all right, I think you

635
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,560
should probably go and learn
about how to bend wood.

636
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,440
Let's maybe set you up on a, on
a play on a work placement with

637
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,920
a, a joiner in the city and you
can go there every Wednesday

638
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,560
morning.
You're probably going to need to

639
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,880
know the maths behind the angles
of that wood.

640
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:32,040
So we're going to need to, we're
going to need to learn that.

641
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,200
And then the students, they
don't do traditional classes.

642
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,440
What they do that their school
looks a bit like a Google

643
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,320
office.
So they do a lot of

644
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,800
collaborative work.
They do a lot of meetings with

645
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,600
people learning from individuals
and within groups.

646
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:53,520
So they I just think that makes
more sense to me because then

647
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,800
you're you're learning for a
reason.

648
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,720
So if we don't learn the first
time available to even do.

649
00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:02,840
This until now, it was kind of
like a hopeless new romantic

650
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,520
thought that hey, I would love
to, you know, a teacher would

651
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,800
love to tell every student what
do you want to learn and teach

652
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,480
them individually.
But a teacher would always

653
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,880
respond, I don't have the time
or the knowledge set even

654
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,680
necessarily or whatever the
resources AI is the resources.

655
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,480
Now all the teacher has to do is
just collaborate with the

656
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,680
student, check in on them, make
sure that they're, you know,

657
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,320
heading down the right path,
making sure they're being

658
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,640
responsible with their time.
But the learning that they're

659
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,960
doing then from that they're
getting could a lot of it could

660
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,680
come from their own homework
that they do.

661
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,840
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that attitude of I'm

662
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,520
the teacher, so I'm the
authority authoritative voice on

663
00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:41,840
this topic.
I mean that I don't think that's

664
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,520
been the case since YouTube
existed.

665
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,840
Like because any, any student
can now pull up an expert on

666
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,760
YouTube that probably knows 10
times more than the teacher.

667
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,840
So there's there's just no way
that like that.

668
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,640
And and and if if the teacher
takes the view of well, no

669
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,120
YouTube, then you are seriously
limiting that student to your

670
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:05,640
role.
It would be terrible to do.

671
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,040
Imagine if someone told.
Me, you can't listen to podcasts

672
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,000
while I was in school.
I'd be like, well, then I have

673
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,920
no idea what I'm going to.
I, I, I, I don't know what I'm

674
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,320
going to learn.
You know, it's crazy.

675
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,560
I I you limit, you limit the.
Ceiling for those students,

676
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,200
yeah, to the to the the ceiling
of the stuff in that school.

677
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,560
And surely we want them to go
beyond where we are.

678
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,840
Yeah, we hope.
You hope.

679
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,040
I.
One of my to go with that theme

680
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,600
and I, you know, I, one of my
most successful projects to date

681
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,600
has been a film project where my
students, well, you know, so for

682
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,280
example, we did a Western song,
Grateful Dead song, because I'm

683
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,440
a big fan of that type of that
era of music.

684
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,520
And it was an old western about,
you know, a couple of Cowboys.

685
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:50,240
We only deal with our cowboy
culture.

686
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:52,560
And then, and then I said, OK,
now you guys are going to break

687
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,000
into groups of five.
You're going to write a 5 page

688
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,720
movie script and then you guys
are going to film the movie and

689
00:38:58,720 --> 00:38:59,840
edit it.
And then we're going to have a

690
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,200
pizza party and watch that,
watch everyone's 5 minute, you

691
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:03,800
know, 5 to 7 minute movies
together.

692
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:09,000
And that general and from that,
like English class, as far as

693
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,160
I'm concerned, everyone has
different skills that they're

694
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:12,560
better at.
Some are better at orally

695
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:13,960
communicating, some are better
at writing.

696
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,200
Some are better at being behind
the camera, being behind the

697
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:17,960
scenes, but are very detail
oriented.

698
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,960
And you're able to actually see
it's almost like shaking up a

699
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,480
jar with oil in it and watching,
you know, as things kind of

700
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,760
separate and, and, and come
apart, you see which students

701
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,960
rise up to which thing that's
more their speed.

702
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,120
Some students are great leaders
and some group students are

703
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,800
great orators and actors.
And some of them are really

704
00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:36,720
passionate.
It's what the whole body is.

705
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:39,840
Some of them have emphasized the
writing, you know, and then

706
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,680
they'll and then, and then you
see, as the week goes on, you

707
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:43,880
know, like take, give me a
script.

708
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,160
You're gonna work on this
because as you're speaking,

709
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,040
you're gonna realize that people
don't talk like, you know, the

710
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,120
way that you're used to writing,
you know, the way how are you

711
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:52,760
today?
No one talks like that.

712
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,680
Hey, how's it going?
Is what you write, you know, and

713
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,360
so, and so make these
adjustments and you could

714
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,840
really, really see that like
and, and, and so it's a learning

715
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,640
experience for everyone, but
everyone kind of gravitates

716
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,360
towards what they're good at
naturally.

717
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,160
And that's when I try to
encourage them and they're like,

718
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,320
we should do this project again.
I said we absolutely should

719
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,320
because everyone here is getting
this is developed, is honing and

720
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,960
sharpening the skills that
they're good at and I try to get

721
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:17,920
them to expose themselves to
things that are not as good at

722
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,520
too.
You know, if someone's less

723
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,760
comfortable reading a script,
hey, why don't you try getting

724
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,000
just in one scene, You know, why
don't you get a couple of lines

725
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,400
in a scene and see if you can,
you know, try to get your feet

726
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,000
wet with that.
But I think that that's, I think

727
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,600
that that goes with what you're
saying that the whole notion of

728
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,480
let's, let's let students decide
what their passion and what they

729
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,000
and, and everyone kind of has a
feeling inside an intuition and

730
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,880
a gut feeling as to what speaks
to them more.

731
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,480
We should be trying to isolate
what that is and helping people

732
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,600
hone that.
Yeah, yeah, I think so.

733
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,480
And I think from a teacher.
Perspective AI can be enormously

734
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,800
helpful too, not just from the
students, for the teachers.

735
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:03,440
Yeah.
And yeah, I just think there's,

736
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,120
there's some, there's so many
ways we could do this better.

737
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:15,480
There's so many ways we can and
I think instead of us go now

738
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:20,880
this is how it should be
actually what would happen if we

739
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,200
just give parents and students
the choice.

740
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,800
And I think that's what's that's
what's starting to happen.

741
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:31,360
I think with with a lot of these
schools that are starting to to

742
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:36,200
to exist now and experimental
micro schools and online schools

743
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,360
and so on that actually I think
parents and students are going

744
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,640
to have more choice.
So if you, if you do, if you're

745
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,520
adamant as a parent, no, no, I
do want my child to go to a

746
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,800
traditional school where they,
they have five classes every

747
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,200
day.
They sit in rows and I think

748
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,160
that then amazing.
Go for it, do it.

749
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,120
But if you're a parent and
you're a student who goes, you

750
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:01,280
know what?
That's not for me.

751
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,800
I, I've probably got ADHD and I
can't sit down for five hours a

752
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:12,080
day, but there is a school over
here that allows me to do some

753
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,920
cool outdoor learning and do
lots of social learning.

754
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:17,760
Then absolutely amazing.
Go for it.

755
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,360
So I think, I think it's, there
are so many different ways we

756
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,440
can do this and not all of them
are perfect because it's just

757
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,040
the nature of it.
Nobody like learning isn't

758
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:31,920
perfect.
Learning is messy.

759
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,040
It's really messy.
Yeah, because if it was easy as

760
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,120
just sticking a plug in your
head and downloading all the

761
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,560
information, then then we would
have done it.

762
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,600
We would, but it's messy.
It's because it because it

763
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:52,080
involves real human life.
And I think personally, I think

764
00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:56,880
the kind of traditional rose sit
down for five hours a day tries

765
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:01,200
to suck the human life out of it
so that we can get as close as

766
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,920
possible to the plug in the
head.

767
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,320
So but I think actually we're
missing the point there.

768
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,480
That actually probably the most
meaningful learning that comes

769
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:15,560
from the messiness comes from
the, the, the, the unpredictable

770
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:20,160
comes from the, the, the lack of
control sometimes and the, the

771
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,920
hand and over of the control.
So, but I, I'm really encouraged

772
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,720
that there's, we're starting to
see more and more options for

773
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:30,880
education.
I do think I am worried that it

774
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,760
we could be because I think a
lot of these schools you've got

775
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,400
to pay for them.
And so I think the, the equity

776
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:44,680
piece here for parents who don't
have much income, I think that

777
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,520
could be quite dangerous going
forward in terms of if you've

778
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,560
got any disposable income, you
could have, you might be able to

779
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,560
afford some kind of experimental
or some kind of progressive

780
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,680
education for your child.
Whereas if you haven't, you're

781
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,760
just relying on the, on the
state education.

782
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,880
So I do think that could that's
that could be problematic.

783
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,280
It's always take time.
It'll take time to catch.

784
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,840
Up, you know, so you're going to
be a couple of steps behind,

785
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,200
unfortunately.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

786
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:18,720
Well, I think anything run by a
government is is reactive rather

787
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:22,320
than proactive.
Yes, I, I think it's just the

788
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,640
nature of government.
That's how government works.

789
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:26,120
Yeah.
So it's.

790
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,880
Responsive, right?
Yeah, absolutely.

791
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,800
And I just that that's the way
it is, I think.

792
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:36,240
And so if you want to, if you
want to get ahead, then I think

793
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:40,520
you've probably got no option
but to find some alternative

794
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:45,920
education or supplement
mainstream education, which I

795
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,200
know a lot of parents already do
anywhere.

796
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:49,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You.

797
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,120
Want to tell me a little bit
about your book, the AI

798
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,440
classroom, please, and what the
process is like writing it and

799
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:55,160
what it's about.
Curious.

800
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,000
I'm almost curious because I
can't well, I can't write long

801
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,040
form it's very hard for me.
So I'm always curious what the

802
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,320
process of writing a a full book
is for everyone.

803
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,200
Yeah process.
Well, the.

804
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,600
The number one thing is don't
think of it as writing long

805
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,480
form.
Chunk it down just like we do

806
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:14,840
for our students.
Chunk it.

807
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,120
So I always think average book
60,000 words.

808
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,240
So I think, well, let's say
there's 10 chapters, 6000 words

809
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:26,560
per chapter.
And then I think well, within

810
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:31,600
each chapter I'm going to put
six parts and each part's going

811
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,960
to be 1000 words each.
So I go right.

812
00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:37,040
And that could be like the first
part would be an introduction to

813
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,520
the chapter.
The second part could be do's

814
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,240
and don'ts around this topics.
Next bit could be top advice

815
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,640
like you chunk it down and then
I, so then I just think, well,

816
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,000
every chapter is essentially 6
blogs.

817
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,440
So I just have to write 6 blogs
and that's otherwise I would go

818
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,960
crazy.
So I, I, I have to do it like

819
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:07,160
that.
But yeah, so, so 2/2/2023 we

820
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:12,920
wrote the AI classroom, which
was a very much of its time.

821
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,920
Still, I'm still amazed that
there's still so many teachers

822
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,800
who get in contact with me a lot
saying they, they get so much

823
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,480
out of that book because I think
I think because, and you're

824
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,440
probably the same, but because
I'm in a bit of an AI bubble, I

825
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,440
feel like we've moved on so much
from that from two years ago.

826
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,560
But actually there's a lot of
teachers still at square 1 and,

827
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:39,560
and need that introduction.
And then early this year I

828
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,800
released infinite education,
which is, is more the, the

829
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,320
strategic side.
So it's, it's for school leaders

830
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,080
and anybody who wants to be a
school leader.

831
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:53,200
So it's essentially the first
half of the book is why do we

832
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,480
need to, to think of strategy in
a new way in education?

833
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,800
And then the second-half of the
book is essentially how do you

834
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,320
do, how do you strategize?
And it's very practical.

835
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:08,920
And so, yeah, I kind of wanted
to do like, like, you know, like

836
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,080
you see those, you see the
business books, like the

837
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,200
strategy business books.
I kind of wanted to do one of

838
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,080
them.
But specifically for school

839
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:21,760
leaders of how, how can we move
forward in this new world.

840
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,560
So yeah.
And, and I, I, so I, I say to

841
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:32,400
teachers by the AI classroom, if
you want help school leaders, if

842
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,120
you're looking to change
education than that infinite

843
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,040
education.
But yeah, I, and I've also got

844
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:45,440
for the last two years, I bring
a book out every summer, which

845
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:50,440
is quite a short book, but which
is essentially a compilation of

846
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:53,840
different essays from people.
And I edit it.

847
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,280
So we've just released that,
which is called the the

848
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:04,640
Educators AI Guide 2026, which
has, yes, it's, it's really good

849
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,800
actually, you know, like many,
because probably because I

850
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,440
didn't write it, I just edited
it.

851
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:14,480
But it's the first section is
just we, we surveyed hundreds

852
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,200
and hundreds of teachers about
what, what tools, what AI tools

853
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,680
are they finding the most
useful?

854
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,160
And so the first section is all
about that.

855
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,760
It's all, it's all teacher
voice.

856
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,280
The second section is, is all
around 7 case studies from 7

857
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,200
different schools who are
integrating AI.

858
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,040
And then the last section is
kind of essays on the ethical

859
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:39,320
questions.
So there's one on

860
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:48,160
sustainability, one on data
privacy, one on strategy and so

861
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,560
on.
So, yeah, so if you want kind of

862
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:55,720
an up to date, how do I get
started with AI, that A-Z type

863
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:58,840
book, then then that, that book
is great.

864
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:03,120
But yeah, I, yeah, I suppose
it's just it comes back to that

865
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,040
thing, doesn't it?
It's great that satisfaction of

866
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:12,080
producing something and, and,
and I often think of the book as

867
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,240
it's something that can go much
further than I ever can.

868
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,520
Now I'm quite lucky, I get to
travel quite a bit of the world

869
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,640
doing this work, but the book
goes so much further than I

870
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,800
could.
Like I get emails and messages

871
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,840
from people all over the world
saying how much the books are

872
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,000
helping them.
And it's, it's amazing to be

873
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,520
able to to produce something
that that can do that really.

874
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:39,760
So it also helps, but it also
helps keep the work going as

875
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,320
well.
On a really practical level is

876
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:46,600
because people discover you and,
and ask you for further help.

877
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:52,000
So yeah, it's a it's it, it
keeps me.

878
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,360
I suppose it's one of the
reasons why I write for Forbes

879
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,120
every week as well.
And I, I do a podcast every day,

880
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,560
like a 10 minute podcast.
Awesome, thank you.

881
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,760
It, it the whole point of it is
to keep me on my toes because

882
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:10,160
like, as you'll know, like this,
this field is moving so fast.

883
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,240
So I, I almost need to back
myself into a corner to force

884
00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:16,600
myself to stay up to date with
it.

885
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:18,440
Sure, sure.
Yeah.

886
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:23,280
So I I've now got mechanisms
where I like the podcast, like

887
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:28,480
articles where I've got no
choice but but to research

888
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,080
constantly.
Yeah, which is which it works at

889
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,880
the moment.
I haven't had a haven't had a

890
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:35,880
nervous breakdown just yet.
That's good.

891
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:42,960
But yeah, if it goes any faster
maybe, but hopefully it's it, it

892
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,920
stays at this speed also this
kind of stuff that you're.

893
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,640
Doing, I believe, at least the
writing and the podcasting.

894
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:54,160
All this is our muscles in our
heads that we we have to keep

895
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,120
growing and keeping them strong.
Just the same way you have to be

896
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,800
physically healthy writing all
the time, talking all the time,

897
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,640
expressing ideas and being clear
all the time and elaborating

898
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:06,360
and, you know, making sure that
you're understood.

899
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:10,160
These are all muscles that need
to be worked on all the time,

900
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,440
you know, And it's one thing
that was Thomas is like English

901
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,600
is so important because it's
relevant to anything that you

902
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:18,200
do.
You know, like you want to be a

903
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:19,760
lawyer, you want to be a
businessman, you want to be a

904
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,640
doctor, you want to be a
husband, you want to be a dad,

905
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,200
you want to be a good a good
brother, a good friend.

906
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,080
Learn how to express yourself
because miscommunication is

907
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:31,760
probably 95% of everyone's
issues, you know, and I think

908
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,480
you saw right there.
And even just for the idea

909
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,040
process, like if you're having
to think about something

910
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,160
meaningfully every single day
and or, and produce a bit of

911
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,880
content every single day.
Now, 9 out of 10 of them might

912
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:50,440
be, might might be just average.
In fact, they will be average.

913
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,320
But one out of 10 of them might
be a LinkedIn post or a blog or

914
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,640
a podcast that goes a bit viral.
Maybe one out of 50, maybe one

915
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,480
out of 100.
But the more you do in it that

916
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,800
you're increasing the frequency
of that, that one that that does

917
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,000
really well.
So therefore you learn, you

918
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,160
learn actually, actually that's,
but that's the type of thing I

919
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,520
should maybe be looking at and
exploring more.

920
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,600
And if you're into business,
because if everybody needs

921
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:23,240
money, like that's how we
survive.

922
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,800
So if you want to monetize what
you're doing, then it really

923
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,720
helps because you get to think,
well, actually that's the kind

924
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:32,880
of content people resonate with.
So maybe I'll focus on that a

925
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:38,440
bit more and, or, or that's the
big type of content that feels

926
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,440
more authentic to myself.
So maybe I should focus on that

927
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,040
more.
So it's yeah.

928
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,960
But if you just did one bit of
content every month, you

929
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:51,040
wouldn't you, it would take you
decades to get there, whereas

930
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,640
somebody who's doing it every
day would get there in just a

931
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:57,520
just a year or so.
So I, I do think whether it's

932
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,920
for business, whether it's just
to have a presence on social

933
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,720
media, whether you want to write
a book, you've got to be putting

934
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,080
stuff out there constantly.
And it's the real feedback you

935
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,200
get from other human beings that
that helps you craft and helps

936
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,040
you.
I used to before I was a

937
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,560
teacher.
I did stand up comedy for a

938
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,240
couple of years.
No way.

939
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:20,360
Yeah.
I loved that.

940
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:22,200
Yeah.
Well, I loved.

941
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,320
It, but I was, I started
training to be a teacher and it

942
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:29,560
started to clash.
So I, I, I give it up in the

943
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,920
end.
But I, I one of the things that

944
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:37,200
people used to say in the stand
up comedy circuit is that you

945
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,880
only practice when you're on
stage.

946
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,760
So because you can't practice
stand up comedy in front of a

947
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,400
mirror like you, like you could
have the funniest joke in the

948
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:48,760
world, but you don't, you don't
know.

949
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,360
You could have the worst joke in
the world, but you don't know.

950
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,800
You've literally got to be in
front of people to practice.

951
00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:57,720
And when you start to stand up
comedy, you get 5 minutes slots.

952
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,240
Yeah.
So if you're doing 5 minutes

953
00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:04,440
once a week, you're going to
learn at a much slower pace than

954
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,680
somebody who's doing 5 minutes
every night.

955
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,560
Yeah, even three days a week.
Yeah, yeah.

956
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,480
So.
So the whole idea when you're

957
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,480
starting out with stand up
comedy is you want to be on

958
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,360
stage as much as possible.
Like so people move to a busy

959
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,560
city and move to New York where
you're from.

960
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,280
They because because there's so
many comedy clothes, that means

961
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,200
they can get more and more stage
time and therefore they can

962
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,000
learn faster and get more
successful faster.

963
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:37,240
And I think, I think that lesson
applies to everything and, and,

964
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:41,080
and very much applies
professionally as well in, in,

965
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,120
in how we come up with our
ideas, how we keep ourselves

966
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:49,160
fresh, how we, how we learn
from, from our surroundings.

967
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,640
So yeah, it's, but the great
thing is with social media, you

968
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:57,120
can, you can do this.
You just have to get, you just

969
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:58,440
have to get rid of the
inhibition.

970
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,160
A feeling that says if I post
this, will I look silly?

971
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:03,680
Like little bit loud never
hurts.

972
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,960
It never hurts.
Pint again.

973
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:11,240
I needed my first open mic.
I needed a pint again just to

974
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:14,960
ask the guy to sign me up a shot
just before I went on stage.

975
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,800
You know, I was like my.
Yeah, I played a little bit too.

976
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:22,440
Yeah, I do, I do.
It's hard the.

977
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,840
Truth I wanted to start writing
stand up because I think it's

978
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:26,880
fun.
I think it's really clever and,

979
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,240
and it requires real
sophistication and, and wit and

980
00:55:30,240 --> 00:55:34,480
intelligence.
But I'm just, I have, I think

981
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:35,520
also it's just.
Craft.

982
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:39,120
It's like because they said, you
know, if you, if you write, the

983
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:41,240
first of a time is art.
Yeah.

984
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:42,920
But the first?
Time you ever get up?

985
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,800
You might write, I don't know,
let's say 10 jokes within 5

986
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,240
minutes.
Maybe one of those jokes work.

987
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:55,960
And so the next time you go up,
you write 9 new jokes and keep

988
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,440
that joke in and then maybe and
then maybe one more works.

989
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,560
And then if so, if you do that
10 times and on average you're

990
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,040
getting a new joke work which
which is quite a high rate of.

991
00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:14,720
Jokes within 10.
Ten goes in 10, 10 open night,

992
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:19,240
open mic nights, you've got a 5
minute routine and that's like

993
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,720
within a year you could have a
full half hour you could have a

994
00:56:22,720 --> 00:56:26,600
full hour and that's that's
that's how comedy works You, you

995
00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:31,480
it's a craft and you've just got
to see what what sticks, what

996
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,920
doesn't stick.
But I think imagine if we took

997
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,960
that and allowed our students to
work like that.

998
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:43,040
Yeah, if we, if we give them
some, if we, let's say a project

999
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:47,680
bit of work and we went, you
know what, like amazing piece of

1000
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:52,400
work, but only about 5% of it
is, is good.

1001
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,360
Why don't we, why do, why don't
you hold on to that?

1002
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,480
And then let's try and build
another 5% that's good.

1003
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,680
And another.
I don't, I assume through a bad

1004
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:02,600
rating.
I don't.

1005
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,000
Let them throw it out again.
There's something in there that

1006
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:06,720
you're going to want to use
again another time.

1007
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:10,360
So like even if you never want
to use 95% of that again, like

1008
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,800
you just said, there's going to
be a couple of good lines, a

1009
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,080
couple of good descriptions.
Like, you know, just like, you

1010
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:17,520
know, I felt a shudder and I'm
like good, keep that.

1011
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,720
You know, like I heard the sound
of brass breaking, like

1012
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:21,680
excellent.
That's like very visual.

1013
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,120
Throw the rest of it away, you
know, just keep that for now,

1014
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:25,160
you know.
Great.

1015
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,320
Yeah, absolutely.
And a bit like.

1016
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,480
In stand up as well, you might
you might tell a joke and it

1017
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,280
doesn't go down well, but you
might still go away a thing.

1018
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,320
And actually, I think there's
something in that I just need

1019
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:39,800
to, maybe the timing needs to be
different or the, the punch line

1020
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,160
needs to be a bit sharper.
And so you, you craft it a bit

1021
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:48,160
more and you try it out again.
And, and, and I just think,

1022
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,040
imagine, imagine that's how we
approach learning with our with

1023
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:55,760
our students and, and almost
taught them that as a craft,

1024
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,320
that that's how you get good at
something rather than just

1025
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,440
memorise as much as possible and
then go into an exam hall and

1026
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:04,800
try and regurgitate it.
It's like we actually taught

1027
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,800
them how to craft and how to get
good at anything.

1028
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:13,360
And then therefore, no matter
what they want to do, they have

1029
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,640
now got the core ethic of what
it takes to get good at

1030
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:22,560
anything, absolutely anything.
We just don't teach.

1031
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:24,640
We just don't teach that.
And I think it comes back to

1032
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:29,960
something you said very early on
that I don't think a lot of

1033
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,920
teachers have that experience to
be able to pass on themselves

1034
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,520
and not, I am a teacher, I've
got family who are teachers,

1035
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:40,160
I've got friends who are
teachers.

1036
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:45,560
So this isn't a slight on
teachers, but I just think we

1037
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:50,440
don't, it's just, it's just not
something that I think a lot of

1038
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,800
people know.
So yeah, yeah, we've got a,

1039
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,320
we've got a long way to go.
We do.

1040
00:58:57,560 --> 00:58:59,680
We do.
There's before I leave you

1041
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,680
because I appreciate your time
and we got an hour slot before

1042
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,000
before we call this.
It is really such a pleasure.

1043
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:08,480
It's so nice.
Thank you again.

1044
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,480
What what is what is what is
some kind of easy implementable

1045
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:15,560
and practical advice that you
can kind of it's universally

1046
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:17,200
useful.
You think that you'd recommend

1047
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:18,800
leaving off with that anyone can
have?

1048
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,000
In terms of artificial
intelligence and in terms of

1049
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,080
either education or.
Artificial intelligence that you

1050
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,640
think that anyone listening
would be like, you know, this is

1051
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:30,240
a really easy, quick step that
you could take to really just

1052
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:35,080
make a big difference.
I, yeah, I mean, first of all,

1053
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:36,320
it's been amazing to be with you
as well.

1054
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:40,080
I, I love doing podcasts because
and, and I know we had

1055
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,240
conversations beforehand where
you were said, you said, do you

1056
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:45,400
want me to send you over some
questions and things like that?

1057
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,120
And I said, no, it's OK because
I, I love, I love it when we can

1058
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,160
just, I don't know what's going
to come out my mouth.

1059
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:53,720
I don't know what's going to
come out your mouth.

1060
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:56,240
And we just actually have a
conversation because it helps me

1061
00:59:56,240 --> 01:00:03,440
clarify my thoughts as well.
But I suppose I'll try and do

1062
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,240
this really quickly.
So I'm a big fan of it.

1063
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,440
There's an innovation model
called the three box solution to

1064
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,440
innovation.
And I mention this in all my

1065
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:13,160
books.
Box 1 is 3 boxes.

1066
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:15,720
Box 1 is all about.
What are we currently doing,

1067
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:17,720
what are we currently good at?
And you can apply that to a

1068
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:20,200
business, to a school.
It's the systems, it's the

1069
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:24,640
procedures, it's the success
metrics it and we can innovate,

1070
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:28,160
we can get more efficient, we
can maybe get by with it with

1071
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:29,800
less budget, whatever that might
be.

1072
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,000
But it's our performance engine,
it's our day-to-day.

1073
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,480
But there's also two other boxes
that in that to jump to the

1074
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,080
third box.
The third box is about creating

1075
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:45,120
the future because if we just
carry on in box 1 then it might

1076
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,760
become irrelevant after a while.
Think, Think blockbusters.

1077
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,760
Think Kodak.
These companies had amazing

1078
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:57,160
performance engine businesses
but still failed because they

1079
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,240
didn't create the future.
The middle boxes.

1080
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:04,360
What can we give up that might
have worked in box 1 but does

1081
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:06,720
not does no longer work in box
3.

1082
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,560
It's a scary box.
Yeah, 100.

1083
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,240
Percent, 100%.
And this is the, this is the

1084
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,880
main framework I use when I do
innovation with schools and with

1085
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:18,640
government.
But I suppose my, the one thing

1086
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,440
I want to say is I also use it
with my personal life, with my,

1087
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:25,960
with me.
So I always, I always think to

1088
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:28,280
myself, right, what am I working
on right now?

1089
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:31,080
What takes up the majority of my
time?

1090
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:33,800
What am I good at?
What's the systems I have in

1091
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:37,400
place at home, my personal life,
maybe my work life.

1092
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,960
And then I think, what else
could I be doing for the future?

1093
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:46,920
Could I, could I get up every
half an hour early every morning

1094
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:52,080
and, and learn a new skill that
that could become something I

1095
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:56,680
move into in the in the future?
Is a could I be looking at

1096
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,520
another way to make money for my
business?

1097
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,400
Could I be looking at another
career?

1098
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:07,840
Could I be making connections
with people who are in in the

1099
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,760
realm that I would eventually
want to be in myself?

1100
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,480
So I think I think always be
thinking right, even if things

1101
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,520
are going really well, always be
curious as to what else could I

1102
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:23,160
be doing to get to the next,
next stage.

1103
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:30,480
My when I was a teacher, one of
one of the leaders once said to

1104
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:35,440
me, she, she asked me in for a
meeting and she said, what's

1105
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:40,040
you're out?
What's you're out and and I I

1106
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:43,400
want, I said to her because I
didn't want to appear that I

1107
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,640
wanted to get out because I
wanted I was really enjoying my

1108
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:47,640
job.
I was like, I don't have an out.

1109
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:49,600
This is I'm committed to the
school.

1110
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,920
And she said no.
She said every good leader has

1111
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:58,440
an out because if if you come in
one day and you've been laid

1112
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:03,040
off, you've been made redundant.
If you come in one day and you

1113
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:05,680
realise you need more money and
this job isn't doing it for you,

1114
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:09,160
what something could happen out
of your control.

1115
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:12,280
So watch you out.
What were you going to do?

1116
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,480
So always be working on
something that you can

1117
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,360
transition, transition to.
So it's something that I always

1118
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:23,640
keep trying to keep in my in my,
the dynamic of my life.

1119
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:28,800
And I think, I think it's really
good, really good advice that I

1120
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:32,240
was given and that I think and
really helps.

1121
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:34,040
And it, and it links back to
what we've said before, doesn't

1122
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:37,040
it, about lifelong learning.
It's because that's essentially

1123
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:40,040
what we're talking about.
It's how do you continue to

1124
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,640
learn so that you can keep
moving in life, you can keep

1125
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:46,040
progressing and I think people
will find that.

1126
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,640
Curiosity is also a muscle, you
know that the more that you

1127
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:52,400
practice being curious or how
does that work or what else can

1128
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,640
I do, you'll find that you come,
you come to better solutions and

1129
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:57,520
better and, and and more
creative answers.

1130
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,280
The more the more that you time
that you spend doing, you know,

1131
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:02,640
working on that train of thought
for sure.

1132
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:04,960
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, absolutely.

1133
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,240
And I find for me, I find the
thing that ignites curiosity the

1134
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:15,280
most is, is when I hang around
with people who are, are kind of

1135
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,360
doing better than I am.
And that that really makes me

1136
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:23,760
think like how, because I'm
always surprised by just how

1137
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:27,240
normal everybody is.
It doesn't matter if you're like

1138
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:32,000
an Uber airless celebrity, a
billionaire and you get into a

1139
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:36,040
room with somebody, everyone's
just a normal person who who

1140
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,520
was, there's not much difference
between US.

1141
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:41,400
And that always really
fascinates me because then I

1142
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,840
think what it does for me first
of all is it thinks I start to

1143
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:48,680
think, well, if they can do
that, surely I can do it because

1144
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:50,160
they're not very different to
me.

1145
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:52,920
And then that makes me really
curious to start thinking, well,

1146
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:56,160
how do they do it?
How, how do they do it?

1147
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:58,320
And I think even just
associating yourself with

1148
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:02,960
somebody who's a bit out of your
circle, like can do so much for

1149
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,840
you can really can ignite,
ignite so much.

1150
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,560
Beautiful, beautiful Dan.
Thank you so much for the time.

1151
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:11,400
This is such a pleasure.
Maybe we'll do this again,

1152
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:14,640
especially working this sounds
like this has been a ton of fun

1153
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,000
and I'm sure we have a lot more
we can talk about, but for now,

1154
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:19,640
this is such a pleasure.
Thanks so much for your time and

1155
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:22,160
I really appreciate this.
Thanks Efrain.

1156
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:24,640
Cheers, thank you so much.
Take care and have a good day.

1157
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:25,120
Bye bye.