Jan. 28, 2026
Entertainment Series 10: Tom Secker / Government & Hollywood / Propaganda / Aliens / CIA & Homeland
Tom Secker is an investigative journalist, writer and producer of the website Spyculture.com.
He is the coauthor of National Security Cinema: The Shocking New Evidence of Government Control in Hollywood (https://a.co/d/j2QsJCz) , and Superheroes, Movies, and the State, How the US Government Shapes Cinematic Universes (https://a.co/d/afDvNRk)
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Welcome to another episode of
come together,
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Tom Sucker.
Welcome.
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I'm so happy to have you here.
The creator of spy culture, an
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awesome website.
How are you I'm.
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Great.
Thanks.
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Thanks for having me.
It's good to be talking to you.
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Yes, yes, I'm really excited to
be talking.
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I, I came, I came across your
work by accident, but but once I
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saw it, my, my eyes lit up and,
and I caught fire because this
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was because it's some of the
coolest work and contrary
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actually to what I want to
hopefully, you know, open our
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conversation about contrary to
lots of other work, your work is
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meticulously sourced and really,
really well detailed.
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And it's, it's, it's tons of fun
to just go through and you can
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learn so much just from, you
know, just your timeline is
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incredible.
Oh, the CIA Hollywood timeline.
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Yeah.
Oh yeah.
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That's incredible.
That's really amazing.
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Thanks.
Thanks.
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That took a lot of lot of time.
Well, I mean, it's years and
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years of research that
ultimately went into that.
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But even just putting it
together took days, weeks, I
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can't remember a couple of weeks
maybe.
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So yeah, that was a bit of a
labor of love, that one.
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I always wanted to take pretty
much everything I had, or at
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least the essence of everything
I had on the CIA and Hollywood
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and put it together all in one
place for people.
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So yeah, yeah, any anyone who's
listening, go look at the CIA
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and Hollywood timeline.
It's a it's a lot of, lot of
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work.
It's spyculture.com.
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Yeah.
And it's, it's again,
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meticulously done, super well
sourced.
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I was just reading through it
before you hopped on.
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I was reading about the CIA
document that you posted about
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their mishandling of Zero Dark
30 and, and our and, you know,
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and, and basically all
regulations as far as far as,
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you know, the way that the
government supposed to relate to
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Hollywood.
But we're going to, I'm sure
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we're going to talk, we're going
to dive into a lot of these type
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of topics.
The I, I, I, I wanted to
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actually begin, if you don't
mind.
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I saw what it must have been a
relatively new post because I
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missed it the first time I went
through.
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Was your post about the weird
scenes inside Laurel Canyon
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book.
Yeah, I, it's funny because I
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didn't talk about this book for
months, but it happened to be
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that the podcast that I recorded
that mentioned it, the author
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was what asked me to hold off a
couple of months to publish it
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until his newest book came out.
So I just released it the other
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day and I happened to talk about
this book then too.
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But I read the book and I was
really excited to get my hands
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on it.
And I and I heard about it being
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talked about in a couple of
podcasts and I picked it up and
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I start going through it and I,
and, you know, red lights just
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started going off my head and
alarm bells started ringing.
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I said, this feels just not
great.
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And then and then I and then,
and then I read and then I got
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up to parts that I really didn't
know about, you know, like for
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example, the Grateful Dead and,
and, and Pig Pen's relationship
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with Janis Joplin and yeah, and,
and, and, and her, you know, her
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mysterious death and not really
mysterious was an overdose.
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Everything was just, everything
felt like it was being shoved
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needlessly into conspiracy and
it felt like it didn't have to
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be like there's plenty of great,
there's plenty of crazy stories
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out there that we don't have to
necessarily.
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We don't have to fictionalize
everything or, or I guess what's
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the word for it when you we
conspiracize everything.
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Well, I mean, that's what the
book does.
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It tries to take all these
disparate stories about
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relatively disparate people.
I mean, there's some
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interconnections at at various
points, but it turns it into
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this grand overarching
conspiracy theory about pretty
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much everything that was going
on at that time, culturally
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speaking.
And also it it, it amalgamates
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so many different things.
There's this the whole thing
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about the the Lookout Mountain
Observatory or Lookout Mountain
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Laboratory, which is in
Mcgowan's book, is supposedly
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the sort of top secret military
facility that's somewhere in
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Laurel Canyon.
But he doesn't really seem to
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know that much about it.
And it's almost like the absence
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of information is a cause to be
suspicious, right?
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And and he claims it was somehow
at the center of this CIA
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military intelligence, create
the hippie movement, influence
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the hippie movement, overarching
conspiracy theory that kind of
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runs through the whole book or
most of the book anyway.
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But he doesn't cite any evidence
for that.
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He doesn't cite any connection
between any of these musicians
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and film stars and so on, these
hippies that lived in Laurel
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Canyon and the actual Lookout
Mountain Laboratory.
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And as far as I can tell, there
basically is no connection
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except they happen to live in
the same or exist in the same
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geographical area at the same
time.
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It's sort of, there's a lot,
there's a lot of conspiracy by
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association in the book, and
there's a lot of conspiracy by
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geographic location in the book
because these people lived
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around the corner from these
people.
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They therefore must have been
connected in some profound way.
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But were they or did they just
know each other?
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Did they sometimes go to parties
with each other?
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Did they occasionally record an
album or a song together?
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I mean, that doesn't prove a
conspiracy.
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It's just what people do, right?
Yeah, and it's just as easily
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likely as it is unlikely.
I mean, you know, I mean, I have
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so many friends that and and I
think about this quite a bit.
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Oh man, with with the whole
Jeffrey Epstein story where I
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think how many people are on
this quote UN quote list or how
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many people associated with him
really just really like just
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knew him on a superficial level
that are now just getting
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bundled up with him.
And you know, I'm just there,
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there are plenty of people, I'm
sure that had a lot of
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wrongdoing, but there's a lot of
people that I mean, I think I
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could think about so many people
in my life that I've had
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positive associations with that
I haven't kept up with that.
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I've had a year of friendship
with a couple of month
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relationship with and then
disappeared.
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And I haven't heard from them in
10 years.
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And I find out that there one
day, you know, some kind of
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terrible sex offender and I've
been really, you know, and, and
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I and I said I had a
relationship with them ten years
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ago where I knew them for a
couple of months or for a year
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or two.
Guilt by association.
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Like it could be, but it could
just as equally not be.
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Absolutely.
I've.
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I've known some people in my
life who I was even friends with
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for quite long periods of time
who turned out to be doing
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horrible things.
Doesn't make me responsible for
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that.
It doesn't mean that I I'm in
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any way guilty or I'm in any way
responsible or liable for what
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they did.
And I know what you mean about
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the Epstein thing, because it
still isn't clear exactly to
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what extent Maxwell and Epstein
were entrapping people or
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providing these, I don't want to
call them services, but we're
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providing essentially underage
sex slaves or trafficked.
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Yeah, yeah.
Teenage girls and what have you.
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We don't actually know the
extent to which that was
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happening.
It seems it must have been
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happening to some degree.
But then people leap in and say,
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oh, because this person is on a
flight log, they were once on
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this plane or they flew on this
plane 6 times, right?
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And that means they flew on a
plane.
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That doesn't mean they
necessarily knew everything
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Epstein was up to, let alone
we're participating in it.
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Some of them we have to assume
were, but we don't know which
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ones.
And until people actually
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outline some solid evidence of
this being more than just an
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association with Epstein, I'm
not really sure where we go with
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it.
And that is a real problem,
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because I do think something
very serious and very dark and
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very sick and twisted and psycho
stalker creepy pervert
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paedophile thing happened there.
But I don't know exactly who was
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and wasn't involved.
I certainly don't believe
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Epstein killed himself.
I'll, I'll say that much.
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I can't.
I can't imagine it.
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It's possible, but I can't
imagine it.
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Have a lot of time with it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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But, you know, and I think
you're right.
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And I and I and I think that end
of the day, there has been so
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much good work done and there is
so much information available.
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If you want to do your homework
and if you want to make it
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happen, excuse me, phone drops.
If you want to make it happen,
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you can do it, you know, and so
that's that's kind of what
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bothers me about a lazy
conspiracies or and I'm not
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going to call weird things that
inside of Canyon a lazy
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conspiracy per SE, because the
author obviously put a lot of
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effort into actually writing the
book and getting information
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that he did.
But it feels like he stopped a
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step short of what he could
have.
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And I think that we, you know,
it's it becomes a dangerous
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game, you know, because like,
like you said, it just becomes
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association and that doesn't
necessarily mean anything.
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So I think I think it's I think
it's a good point.
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I think it's really interesting.
I mean, the biggest problem I
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have with that book, which I
outlined in the podcast episode
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that I did, reviewing it and
honestly tearing into it in
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places, people, people don't
have to agree with my opinions
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in that one.
But I would actually ask that
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you at least go and have a read
or a listen to it and consider
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have I been a little bit
suckered maybe by some some of
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the things that people have said
here?
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Or have I maybe been a little
bit lazy in my own thinking and
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taking some things too seriously
or just taking them for granted.
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The biggest problem for me is
that at no point does McGowan
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mention any of the actual
cultural warfare operations that
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we know were going on at that
time, including it, including in
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Los Angeles, let alone the CI as
infiltration of the hippie
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movement, the anti Vietnam War
movement, Operation Kale.
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If you want to look up Operation
Chaos, it was this CIA
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infiltration and spying
operation looking at the the
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radical left, the hippie
movement, the anti war movement,
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all of that and infiltrating,
getting in there some ways and
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presumably trying to sabotage
and disrupt in some fashion.
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And you would think that's
directly connected to most of
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what only some of what Mcgowan's
talking about.
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And yet it isn't mentioned
anywhere in the book.
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And so I'm wondering if you want
to you really want to flesh out
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this theory that he's espousing.
That's just an obvious place to
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me to look is to associate it
with this, to situate it in that
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context of what is definite and
already known, rather than this
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relatively loosely affiliated
and awfully often loosely
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defined conspiracy theory that
he he does espouse.
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Yeah, yeah.
And it's funny because I feel
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like it's, it's hard to even do
that much homework and collect
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information that he did without
coming across that.
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I mean, I'm a casual reader and
I've, you know, and I've come
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across way more than what?
Than what at least.
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Listen, I didn't finish the
book.
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I got about, you know, just
about a little bit less than
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halfway through and just said,
I, I, I don't have the patience
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to keep on going with this.
And and I really try to push
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through and I really do.
But I was like, I have so many
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books I want to read and this is
really isn't giving me too much
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to work.
It's not even giving me homework
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to do so.
So I had to put it aside for
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now.
But I'm happy that that you I'm
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happy that you have a similar
perspective with me.
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And then, at least to me that
when it comes to this book,
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because I love that point in
history.
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I love that music.
I love that time.
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I'm fascinated by it.
The book Chaos by Tom O'Neill.
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I don't know if you read it, I I
thought was a remarkable work
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that really brings a sheds a lot
more light onto this into this
222
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,440
world without really making he
he he provides so much
223
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,160
information without me.
He does the opposite of of what
224
00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:17,800
McGregor does.
He he, he provides all the
225
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,240
information without coming to
any definitive conclusions and
226
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,240
says there's too many
interplaying factors over here
227
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:24,720
for me to say for sure what it
is.
228
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,800
And in too much evidence has
been destroyed and too many
229
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,880
people are dead now for me to be
able to really make a decision.
230
00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,160
But there was some weird stuff
going on, you know, and here's
231
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,720
the record of the weird stuff.
And here's Jolly West and here's
232
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,480
and here's the introduction of
amphetamines in San Francisco.
233
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,440
And here's that, you know,
here's Manson with, you know,
234
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,240
meeting with, with Jolly WX
amount of times.
235
00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,800
And like, what does it mean?
I don't know, but here's the
236
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,480
data, here's the hard facts.
Do with that as you will, I
237
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,280
think that's that.
That's a much more preferable
238
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,600
way of going about it.
Well, and just for what it's
239
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,000
worth, I do think there was some
a lot of weird shit going on in
240
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,720
the San Francisco part of the
with with Tim Leary and all of
241
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,280
that kind of thing.
There is definitely something to
242
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,560
that and if people want to give.
Me about Tim Leary's
243
00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:12,680
relationship, if you don't mind,
because I, I, I know the name
244
00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:14,600
for sure.
And he's a counterculture hero.
245
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,440
He's a beat, I think, right?
Or the end of the pre hippie
246
00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:19,480
around that time.
Yeah.
247
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,880
Yeah.
But I never heard about his
248
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,840
relationship with any kind of
government association.
249
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:26,520
Do you?
Do you, do you know off the top
250
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,160
of your head, you know, any more
detail than that?
251
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,800
Well, certainly he had some
involvement with the CIA.
252
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,480
That's fairly well established.
He was being, I'm pretty sure,
253
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,120
being spied on by the FBI
simultaneously.
254
00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,680
And there is this whole thing
about the CIA running
255
00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:43,360
experiments, including in San
Francisco with, with acid, with
256
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,320
LSD.
They were sometimes running
257
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,720
essentially brothels where they
would ensnare.
258
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,040
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Where they would ensnare
259
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:56,120
clients, get them to come in,
dose them up with acid and then
260
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,040
film them to see what the hell
happened.
261
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,120
And these are pretty, I mean
that's a pretty messed up
262
00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,280
experiment and potentially very
dangerous experiment or series
263
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,440
of experiments operations they
were running.
264
00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:10,360
Exactly where that connects and
overlaps with with Tim Leary,
265
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,280
I'm not 100% sure, but it was
happening at the same time in
266
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,200
basically the same place, to
some extent the same place.
267
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,800
So therefore we have to assume
there is a connection there.
268
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,920
And yeah, that part of the AP
movement, certainly the more
269
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,480
sort of drug fueled psychedelic
or excessively maybe psychedelic
270
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,480
part of the AP movement I do
think was being infiltrated and
271
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,760
manipulated.
But that's a bit of a different
272
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,400
thing to what was going on in
Southern California around Los
273
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,360
Angeles and Laurel Canyon.
So I'm not sure if those two
274
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,720
things are actually integrated
in any way.
275
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,000
They, if there were, if there
were operations being run in
276
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,680
Laurel Canyon and certainly I
think the FBI were spying on
277
00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:47,520
some of these people.
We know that much.
278
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:51,760
Are those things connected or
not?
279
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,560
Or in what ways are they
connected?
280
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:55,000
I'm, I'm still not sure about
that.
281
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,360
I have a lot of scepticism about
the hippie movement, despite
282
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,520
being essentially A hippie.
I mean, I wasn't born until the
283
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,520
1980s, but I absorbed a lot of
the hippie philosophies, the
284
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,960
hippie anarchist philosophy
growing up.
285
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:09,480
Nonetheless, I do have a lot of
questions about this movement
286
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,560
and, and it is a disparate
movement.
287
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:16,000
There are it is multifaceted and
to be fair, McGowan does say
288
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,760
this.
He does say isn't just one
289
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,440
amorphous movement or one very
specific movement.
290
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:22,800
There's like different wings of
it.
291
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,200
And he does say that as far as
he's concerned, a lot of this
292
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,160
was about trying to divert
people from the more practical
293
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,400
anti war, anti Vietnam War in
particular side of the movement
294
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,440
and get them more towards to
just take drugs.
295
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,760
You know, TuneIn, drop out free
love.
296
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,160
And I'm not, I'm not actually a
huge fan of that hippie
297
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,640
movement, to be honest.
But some people are.
298
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,160
I mean, people can make their
own judgments on this.
299
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,720
Yeah, I say I'm very happy that
I could look at the hippie
300
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,320
movement in the rearview mirror
because if I was born in that
301
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,760
time, I have a very difficult
time believing I'd have as
302
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,240
balanced as a life of it as I do
now, you know, And I'm living
303
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,160
with more of the echoes and the
ripple effects of that of that
304
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,080
culture.
And I could embrace it in the
305
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,680
way that I feel is appropriately
anachronistic, as you said, as
306
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,000
you, you know, as you're putting
it.
307
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,040
But yeah, I feel that.
I, I, I feel the same way.
308
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,240
And what's what, what I think is
is interesting or curious
309
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,160
perhaps and just completely
speculative is that it seemed
310
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,640
like that, that, that, that
federal agencies.
311
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,720
And there's certainly a paper
trail with this.
312
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,160
And there's another great book,
Blitzed I believe by Norman
313
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:36,760
Orwell, 00 Norman Ohler, German
author, and he has a couple of
314
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,000
great books, but this book
tripped, I'm sorry, tripped is
315
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,120
the book.
And he and he, there's a paper
316
00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,080
trail of LSD from Switzerland to
Nazi Germany, straight to
317
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,240
straight to the state straights,
pretty much straight to San
318
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,520
Francisco.
And, and what's interesting is
319
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,280
that people didn't really know
what LSD was going to do.
320
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,320
And it looks like towards the
late 60s, early 70's, the FBI or
321
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,040
the CIA or whatever government
agencies were experimenting with
322
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,640
the impact of LSD, saw that it
kind of was mushroom into its
323
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,840
own culture.
And they ended up introduce,
324
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,480
introducing amphetamines into
the culture and, you know,
325
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,440
heroin and speed and stuff like
that.
326
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,400
And that ended up causing
enormous decay and 'cause, you
327
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:20,960
know, that was the end of the
summer of love was.
328
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,800
And, you know, I've read
multiple accounts of just, of
329
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,400
just regular everyday people
that were living there that were
330
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,000
great, you know, dead heads or
fans of just, you know, just
331
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,920
real hippies.
And, and they said the, the, the
332
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,480
just over the, over the course
of a couple of months, it just
333
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,000
felt like everyone went from
loving each other and sharing
334
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,600
food and the diggers and, and,
you know, and free love and free
335
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,880
culture and that's art and
sharing to just like a bunch of
336
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,800
zombies in the street.
And they said, we have no idea
337
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,640
what happened.
But but again, the work from
338
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,520
from Tom O'Neill sheds a little
bit of light into, into the,
339
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,040
into the introduction of of
speed and those uppers into,
340
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,280
into the culture that was really
doing really well with the
341
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,720
psychedelics, I think, or for
the most part, you know, with
342
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,640
the psychedelics.
But they are two fundamentally
343
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,960
different.
I mean, metabolically, they're
344
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,079
two fundamentally different
kinds of drugs.
345
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:15,880
I think people want to take
psychedelic drugs.
346
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,359
I mean, I've taken a few in my
time.
347
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,280
And so I do know, I know
personally what this can be like
348
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,119
and what kind of influence it
can have on you.
349
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,440
And it can help open the the
doors of perception if you like.
350
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,280
It can certainly help broaden
your mind, can certainly help
351
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,880
open you up your imagination up
to different possibilities.
352
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:37,000
Whereas cocaine, amphetamines,
those kind of things.
353
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,400
Honestly, I've I've occasionally
tried them and they just don't
354
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,560
work for me at all.
They don't, they don't seem to
355
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,240
fit with my metabolism or my my
mentality.
356
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:50,320
And I can see how on mass this
can help shift a movement and
357
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,400
shift the culture and make it
more about that sort of buzzy
358
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,560
impulsive.
It's got to be now, now, now.
359
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,920
But then you crash because it's
all sort of now, now, now and
360
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,560
then you crash and then you
don't do anything.
361
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,720
Whereas psychedelics is a bit
more medium long term, it's a
362
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,640
bit more slow paced in many
respects.
363
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,240
It's like I say, metabolically
and in terms of biorhythms and
364
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,000
everything, just a fundamentally
different kind of drug
365
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,600
experience and a fundamentally
different kind of culture that
366
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,720
results.
Sure, sure.
367
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,120
Yeah.
I mean, and I, I guess, I guess
368
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:22,280
they're both quote UN quote
medicines in the right
369
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,960
application in different way.
But yeah, I, I tend to agree.
370
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,360
I have no interest in the uppers
and the speed and the
371
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:32,160
amphetamines and stuff.
I'm I'm much more curious about
372
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,840
these unexplored sense of the
consciousness and, and the whole
373
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,000
psychedelic trippy type of world
in general anyway.
374
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,320
So for me, for me personally, it
does, it doesn't speak very much
375
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,520
to me either.
I, I have so many things that
376
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,920
that I kind of want to dive into
and this has been, this is great
377
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,360
already.
One thing that I was curious
378
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:53,480
about to hear your thoughts or
an observation I made while I
379
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,800
was going through your timeline
a little bit was one thing that
380
00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:02,040
I noticed first of all was that
the OSS pre CIA, which was the
381
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,600
government institution that had
preceded it.
382
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,960
I think the CIA was for what is
45 or 46 around that year.
383
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,760
It's 47.
It's the National Security Act,
384
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,240
the same time the Department of
Defense was founded.
385
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,120
Right, right, right.
And but until then, even until
386
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:20,520
then, the government was aware
of the enormous impact of film
387
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,800
on society and its potential for
propaganda.
388
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,440
And what I've noticed was that
the 40s and the 50s felt a lot
389
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,840
more like the like the influence
or the job of the government was
390
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:36,360
to direct the stream.
And then in the 60s and 70s and
391
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,240
became more about fighting a
narrative.
392
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,960
And so you kind of have a shift
in strategy, at least what it
393
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,720
looks like to me from, hey, we
have open heart.
394
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,720
We have, you know, we have a
relatively open society that is
395
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:54,520
that is malleable that we could
kind of push along different
396
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,320
types of social stigmas or
philosophies or political ideas.
397
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,520
And right now?
Maybe what maybe people will
398
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,560
like them, maybe they'll eat
them up.
399
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,120
And so the 40s and 50s felt like
they're a little bit more about
400
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,160
like, you know, that's when they
buy the rights to the to to
401
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,480
Orwell's books.
And that's when, you know, they,
402
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,440
they actually in the whole, I
want to talk about honey traps
403
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,600
too, But I mean, the 60s and 70s
is much more about pushing back
404
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,400
against what this anti
government, anti war, anti, you
405
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,200
know, anti establishment culture
became.
406
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,520
So is, is that, do you think
that's a correct assessment or
407
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:29,720
do you know that?
Do you think it's something
408
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,680
else?
I think you're right that the
409
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,160
certainly the post war
consensus, the kind of liberal
410
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,120
internationalism that grew up
post World War 2, a lot of the
411
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:44,560
earlier CIA operations seem to
be based around that.
412
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,360
They seem to be based around,
let's firstly try and maintain
413
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:53,120
this fairly cushy consensus
society that is emerging or has
414
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:56,880
possibly existed for a while.
And like you'd say directing
415
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,400
that a little bit, directing
that in without necessarily
416
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,120
trying to challenge much or
subvert much, right.
417
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:06,840
Well, oral, I mean, the other
side of things is the stuff that
418
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,240
was targeted against the Soviet
Union, the Cold War propaganda.
419
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,840
But then again, that's part of
the same thing is that we're
420
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,200
saying sort of there is this
liberal international consensus
421
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,960
and somehow the communist Soviet
Union is a rogue element
422
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,840
fighting against this.
It's like, well, there's they
423
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,920
are on the UN National Security
Council.
424
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,960
So I'm not quite sure how you
square that circle, to be
425
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,440
honest.
But but yeah, once you get into
426
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,120
the 60s, you get Vietnam, you
get the the beginnings of the
427
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:36,440
end of that consensus society
and the age, the end of the age
428
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,320
of innocence in America.
A lot of historians think that
429
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,800
actually started in the 60s.
It was not just Watergate, but
430
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,480
Vietnam, I think to some extent
after after Eisenhower left.
431
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:53,600
And then politics became so
acerbic and and angry, angry,
432
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,800
viciously angry at times in the
Nixon Kennedy election.
433
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,560
And because one side of that
one, everyone on the other side
434
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,920
got really quite pissed off for
some reason.
435
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:07,600
Well, for obvious reasons.
And so that consensus society
436
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,000
started falling apart and it
started becoming this more
437
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,240
polarized and fractured society
that we certainly now live in
438
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,040
where everything is sort of
niche and there is no consensus
439
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,960
really on anything much anymore.
And and so, yeah, they were
440
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,920
fighting against certainly the
more radical and subversive
441
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,280
elements of that, while also
trying to assert themselves and
442
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,720
brand themselves because the
CIA, all the people knew the CIA
443
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,440
existed in the 40s and 50s, but
officially they didn't really
444
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,600
confirm or deny much of
anything.
445
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,720
But then post Bay of Pigs, the
failure at the Bay of Pigs in
446
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,480
the early 60s, a lot of people
were suddenly thinking, well,
447
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,840
who the hell are the CIA?
What the hell are they up to?
448
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,760
And so they had to go into a
more public branding mode where
449
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,720
they actually had to try and
brand and and PRFI the CIA
450
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,360
itself.
They had to turn it into
451
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:59,000
something that what did have a
public image, whereas I mean,
452
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,920
even, excuse me, even that
concept of a spy agency, a
453
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,760
secret agency, having a public
image is itself kind of self
454
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,360
contradictory and paradoxical.
And yet it's what they've been
455
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,800
doing since at least the early
60s.
456
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,800
Why?
And just as a parallel in this
457
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,960
country, at the same time, you
get the James Bond movies, the
458
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,840
early James Bond movies.
Now, the British government at
459
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,280
that time didn't admit that MI 6
existed.
460
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,240
In fact, they often denied that
it existed, even though lots of
461
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,200
people knew it existed.
And yet you still have this very
462
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,520
public branding of MI 6 through
the James Bond novels and the
463
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,680
James Bond films.
So it's like you can talk about
464
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,960
this in Hollywood while the
government itself is still
465
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,560
pretending it.
It's not a real thing.
466
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,440
It doesn't exist anymore.
So again, paradoxical PR, if you
467
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,480
see what I mean.
Certainly, Certainly.
468
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,680
Yeah.
And I imagine that one job, but
469
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,600
I think that one job is so much
harder, you know, And I mean, I
470
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,000
just know this from my own
experience.
471
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:59,440
I teach high school and I find
it so much easier to direct a
472
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,640
stream of the students and the
populate the general population.
473
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,160
I find it so much easier to kind
of feel out where they are and
474
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,160
then help.
OK, I see that you guys are
475
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,080
really antsy today.
Let's direct the class to
476
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,640
something that's a little bit
more oriented towards
477
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,480
conversation as opposed to just
sitting and reading or writing,
478
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,000
right?
Or you guys are looking a little
479
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,760
tired today.
So let's, you know, let's, let's
480
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,400
take things a little differently
as A and, and that's a much
481
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,040
easier job.
It's a much easier it's much
482
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,480
easier to be effective when
you're trying to do that as
483
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,160
opposed to when people are, you
know, if it then if my student
484
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,560
is exhausted, I say, come on,
let's go get up, get moving.
485
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,080
And and you just met with
enormous amount of pushback
486
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,960
because you're not meeting
people with where they are.
487
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,360
And so I imagine that the
propaganda.
488
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,520
Or even meeting them halfway,
right?
489
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,280
Yeah, sure, sure.
Exactly.
490
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,720
And I imagine the propaganda job
is, is, is that much more
491
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,040
difficult when there's a huge
sentiment like, why are we in
492
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,520
Vietnam, you know, and, and,
and, and, and, and, and I think
493
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,080
that and, and, and, and for
better, for worse.
494
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,280
When we have a breakdown, for
example, and, you know, for
495
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,280
modern, a modern reference, if
you ask the Trump administration
496
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,040
today why they went to
Venezuela, you know, why we did
497
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,520
what we did in Venezuela, you
literally get 3 or 4 different
498
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,200
responses depending who you're
talking to.
499
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,480
You know, Marco Rubio is going
to say one thing, Trump's going
500
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,120
to say something else.
Pete Headset is going to say
501
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:20,720
something else.
Tulsi Gabbard's going to say
502
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,720
something else.
And, and each of them probably
503
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,320
have their own perspective that
they're coming from, but it's
504
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,640
weird because there's not like
this organized facade anymore.
505
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,720
It feels too uncoordinated and
there's too much, there's too
506
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,640
many flying parts for anyone to
even be to have this organized
507
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,440
facade.
It just it feels like it's
508
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,120
really hard to contain.
It is.
509
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:43,720
There are too many spinning
plates.
510
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,920
The world has got more and more
complicated, more and more
511
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,720
populated.
The economies are in most
512
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,400
countries are in not great
shape.
513
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,480
Widespread consensus, any kind
of democratic consensus doesn't
514
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,520
really seem to exist anymore.
Normalized trust has fallen
515
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,440
through the floor in Western
society.
516
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,280
Most people in most Western
societies don't trust public
517
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,320
institutions, don't even
necessarily trust other people
518
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,720
just generally in the society
that much anymore.
519
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,200
And So what you're seeing, I
think it as a reaction from the
520
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,080
system is it's attempting to
become more authoritarian in
521
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,600
order to try to maintain its
position of authority.
522
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,040
But as it becomes more
authoritarian, more people are
523
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,200
rebelling against it, or at
least becoming cynical and
524
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,960
distrustful of it.
And so that dynamic is just,
525
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,360
it's a, it's a race to the
bottom.
526
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:31,880
It's a downward spiral because
the more people distrust the
527
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,520
government, the harder the
government tries to mess with
528
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,760
their heads and, and just lie
about everything that they're
529
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,120
doing in order to try and
maintain their position.
530
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:42,120
But they can't actually to
maintain that position because
531
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:44,240
trust is just sinking through
the floor anyway.
532
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,240
So you see what I mean?
It's a downward spiral in
533
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,880
democratic politics.
Not that I'm a huge fan of
534
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,840
elective democracy.
I'm just saying from a from the
535
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,880
point of view of someone
observing this, that's what it
536
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,080
feels like to me.
That's what it looks like to me.
537
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,560
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Listen, I, I, I, I don't think.
538
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,040
And I think that this is also
another thing that's come up
539
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,920
with a partisan and polarized
world.
540
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,360
I don't think there's anything
wrong with criticizing, with
541
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:09,960
having some, with having love
for something and pointing out a
542
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,680
flaw in a, in a way that it
could be better, you know, like,
543
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,200
and, and the fact that people
take that as an as an offense or
544
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,520
an insult is it's just so
bizarre to me.
545
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,880
If you told me, hey, I think
you're, I think you're a great
546
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,360
podcast host.
It would have been really
547
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,080
helpful if you interrupted me a
little bit less.
548
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,160
I'm going to say screw you, pal.
Like you know, you, you're not
549
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,480
you're on my side.
You're not on my side.
550
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,760
I feel like, OK, I appreciate
the foot and the feedback.
551
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,680
If that's if that's something
I've been blind to, I'm not
552
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,600
aware of or I was aware of, but
I do need to hear that
553
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:36,800
reinforcement.
Great.
554
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:37,960
Please go ahead.
You know, but.
555
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,840
We all need a little negative
reinforcement.
556
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,920
We all need a little positive
reinforcement.
557
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,400
Generally I try and I try to be
more positive and encouraging
558
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,000
when I do criticize people.
But other times I do just lose
559
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,800
my shit and say whatever it is
that I'm thinking.
560
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,560
We all, we all make mistakes.
We all sometimes go a little far
561
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:59,880
in the things that we say.
But you're right, it is, it's
562
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,800
not just polarized, it's it's
fractured.
563
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,600
There's a, there's a real
spectrum here where anyone who
564
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,760
exists in any particular
political and social demographic
565
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,400
is trained almost in within that
bubble and certainly encouraged
566
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,920
and conditioned within that
bubble to be suspicious of
567
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,360
anything from any other bubble.
And so, and you have to be
568
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:23,240
loyal, you have to be very, very
loyal to the bubble.
569
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,800
So even if you're inside it and
you say, well, actually, I mean,
570
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,160
for the most part, I love this
political movement.
571
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,840
I agree with most of its
principles.
572
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,120
I'm I'm on board with trying to
elect this candidate or
573
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:33,880
whatever.
But I do have some problems
574
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,240
with, with some of these
policies that you're suggesting.
575
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,240
It's like, no, no, you're not
allowed to question the policies
576
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:39,960
we're suggesting.
You have to be completely loyal
577
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,840
to us because otherwise you're a
secret Trumpist or a secret
578
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,320
Democrat or a secret this secret
Zionist, whatever.
579
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,480
And it's like, you're allowed to
be multifarious.
580
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,000
You're allowed to have more than
one opinion about something.
581
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,200
You're allowed to feel more than
one thing.
582
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,680
We contain multitudes.
Each individual contains
583
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,800
multitudes and is more than one
thing.
584
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,200
But certainly politically these
days in terms of the media
585
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,200
politic landscape that we find
ourselves in is supposed to be
586
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,200
just this thing.
You're a part of this
587
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,200
demographic, you're part of this
political movement.
588
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,680
You have these beliefs and any
variation on that is treated
589
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,000
with suspicion and quite often
hostility.
590
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,760
But we do we, we contain more
than one thing.
591
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,520
We are complex beings and we
should just be fucking honest
592
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,840
about that, to be honest.
I I hear hear.
593
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,960
I could not agree.
I could not agree with you more.
594
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,480
I I totally agree.
I wanted to ask, I, I, I, when I
595
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,600
was going through your timeline,
I didn't notice that there was
596
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,960
sometimes where, and you do make
this fair, to be clear, which is
597
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,120
I want to ask you, there are
times where you say that I don't
598
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,920
have a record of support from
whatever government institution,
599
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,880
but there are signs of support
on particular films, right?
600
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,040
And I'm not even bringing up any
particular example unless you
601
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,200
want to provide me with one.
But I just did notice that you
602
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,040
do that sometimes where you say,
you know, there's no official
603
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,240
record of the CIA or the FBI
supporting this film.
604
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,920
However, there are signs, there
are signs of support.
605
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,320
But what what would what would
indicate whether a movie or film
606
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,680
or a television show has has the
support of an agency or not?
607
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:11,960
And how would you identify it?
But.
608
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,440
With the CIA, it's quite
complicated and difficult
609
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,320
because they lie about
everything all the time.
610
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,560
But it can be something as
simple as a piece of stock
611
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,760
footage of CIA headquarters at
Langley.
612
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,920
You don't necessarily have to go
to the CIA to get that, but for
613
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,680
the most part people do.
So you see something like that
614
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,560
in a film, you think, have they
at least gone and got some kind
615
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,280
of courtesy support?
Just a little bit of stock
616
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,960
footage, that aerial panning
shot of Langley that we've seen
617
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,440
in so many films or use of the
CIA seal that you know they.
618
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,960
That's a big one, The compass.
Rose with the eagle at the top
619
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,400
and all of that.
You don't necessarily have to
620
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,760
get the CI as permission to make
a some kind of thing up on the
621
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,880
wall or on the floor or whatever
to show that it is ultimately
622
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,440
public domain.
But still, do you really think
623
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,880
Hollywood film makers are just
going to go fuck the CIA?
624
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,520
What are they going to do to us?
No, they're going to, they're
625
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,680
going to go and ask permission.
And if even if it's just a
626
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,200
little bit of permission here, a
little bit of help there, a
627
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,040
little bit of technical advising
or consultancy that's
628
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,560
essentially off the books, that
happens all the time.
629
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,880
And so these little hallmarks of
CIA support or just for example,
630
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,560
if if a filmmaker, TV producer
hires a former CIA officer as a
631
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,400
consultant, what relationship
does that consultant have with
632
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,920
the agency?
Because they are being hired to
633
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,840
talk about the CIA and they are
supposed to send everything that
634
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,680
they publish about the CIA
through the pre publications
635
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,880
Review Board.
Do they do that with technical
636
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,440
advice and consultancy?
Because some of these people
637
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,320
have said in interviews, public
interviews have said, actually,
638
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,240
I run everything that I do on
the agency past the agency's
639
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,440
Office of public affairs or
someone within Langley.
640
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,160
And I don't know if that's true
for all of these consultants or
641
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:56,880
not.
But so that's another one of
642
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,120
those little hallmarks of were
the agency involved possibly at
643
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,240
one stage removed or something
in this maybe.
644
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:04,760
And it is how they like to do
things.
645
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,680
They do like to recruit assets
and not necessarily do the
646
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,240
things themselves as CIA
officers, but find someone else
647
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,720
to do it for them.
So there's also this, this
648
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,680
lawyer, Rich Klein, who I
mentioned, I've mentioned loads
649
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,400
of times on my side.
I emailed him actually try to
650
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,240
get him on the podcast like you
get them.
651
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,880
I, I came across, I, I, I found
his e-mail and I was like, I
652
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,440
want to hear about your
experience, man.
653
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,720
Well, there are CIA documents
that describe him as a long time
654
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,120
contact of the Office of Public
Affairs at Langley, which to me
655
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,840
just says CIA asset.
I mean, that's what that means.
656
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,640
Ultimately, this guy was, he's a
lawyer.
657
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,440
He was in the State Department,
I think under the Clinton
658
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,040
administration in the 90s.
He then joined Kissinger
659
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,360
Mclarty.
So Henry Kissinger and Mack
660
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,640
Mclarty's law firm that then
split into two law firms.
661
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,240
And Rich Klein went off with
Mclarty and started running this
662
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,720
offshoot or office within that
firm called MC Clarty Media.
663
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,960
It's a media consultancy.
And he said, he said in
664
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,360
interviews, I'm not really a
movie guy.
665
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,080
And so I'm left wondering why on
earth are you that now this
666
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,840
movie consultant for this inside
the Beltway Washington, DC law
667
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:14,640
firm?
It doesn't.
668
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,920
That just doesn't quite add up
to me, Rich, to be honest.
669
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,480
I think I think you may be a bit
of a plant to be honest.
670
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,000
Rich Klein, I have said many
times you are ACIA asset.
671
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,440
It's because you are clearly
some kind of CIA asset.
672
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,000
But there again, if he's working
on say, a Transformers film,
673
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,840
something that doesn't depict
the agency at all, does that
674
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,800
imply that they had any
influence on that?
675
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,440
Maybe, maybe not.
It's another one of those little
676
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,560
hints that you have to think
through and think what what
677
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,840
would be the CI as interest in
this?
678
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,880
And is part of it just about
developing relationships,
679
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,680
winning friends, influencing
people?
680
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,480
And it's, and it's part of it
actually about influencing
681
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,040
content, the stuff that we see
when we actually turn on the
682
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,840
screen and and watch something.
Often I don't know is the
683
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,960
answer.
Often I simply don't know to
684
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,360
what extent the CIA were
involved in something.
685
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,920
But I included all of that stuff
in the timeline because I was
686
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,239
trying to be as be as
comprehensive as possible.
687
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,440
There's no point in doing
something like that without
688
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,320
trying to be as comprehensive as
possible.
689
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,239
Yeah, and to be fair, you again,
you did it.
690
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,080
You did an awesome job.
I wouldn't have even thought.
691
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,800
I also reached out to another
gentleman that that that popped
692
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,520
up on your on your list quite a
bit, Robert Baer.
693
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,600
Yeah.
Reach out to him before I before
694
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,280
I even knew that you before you
before I read your timeline,
695
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,760
which is how I just I was like,
that's great validation to know
696
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,000
that I'm heading the right
direction.
697
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,520
I'm trying to reach out to
people that you already that
698
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,440
you've been, I guess pre vetting
for me.
699
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,280
I appreciate that.
So, you know, I was just like,
700
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,040
because I would love to just
hear what their what their
701
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,320
perception is and what and, and
what their and what their
702
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,040
answers to the public would be.
Just like, Hey, tell me about
703
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,679
your experience and like, what,
what, what was that about and
704
00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:55,760
why, how did you get involved?
Why are you involved?
705
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,520
Do you like it?
You know, and and kind of just
706
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,640
hear the human end of their
justification to themselves,
707
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,960
because I think a lot of people
don't especially you get
708
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,640
approached.
And I feel like this way about
709
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,800
I've been showing my high school
class the movie Miracle since
710
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,960
I've been teaching high school.
And that's about that 1980
711
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,720
hockey US Olympic team that the
fought the Soviets.
712
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,760
And the movie provides an
enormous amount of context into
713
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,680
what was going on at the time,
You know, the Iranian, the
714
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,480
Iranian embassy hostages and
the, the issues with gas, the
715
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,760
shortage in the country and, and
Watergate was fresh in
716
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,760
everyone's mind.
And I just one mess after the
717
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,000
next.
And then, you know, this scrappy
718
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,440
team of, of, of college players
come together, Team USA, this
719
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,640
underdog team that, that skates
and beats the Soviets and, and I
720
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,600
show this movie my class.
I think, you know, not all
721
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,520
propaganda is necessarily bad
propaganda.
722
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:52,720
Not all this, this, this
encourages A scrappy effort and
723
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:56,360
unity and working together and,
and whatever, whatever you think
724
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,120
of kind of the, the notion of,
let's say, deleting the
725
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,400
individual identity for the sake
of a larger country and a larger
726
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,400
purpose.
Whether you agree with that or
727
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,680
not, I can definitely hear the
argument being made.
728
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,800
And I'm sure a lot of people
really feel like they're doing
729
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,880
their patriotic duty to the
country by having a positive
730
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,360
impact on the way Americans
perceive America, you know?
731
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,480
In short, not all propaganda is
inherently evil.
732
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,720
I agree with that.
I mean, and pretty much
733
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:26,720
everything in media is
propaganda anyway of some sort
734
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:30,320
or another.
And even even a film, even some
735
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,320
of the worst films that I've
seen from a political point of
736
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,000
view, stuff where I really hate
the politics that it's trying to
737
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,040
inject into the minds of its
audience.
738
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,000
Sometimes I still quite enjoy it
as a movie, just as a thing to
739
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,240
watch.
You can feel more than one thing
740
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:46,080
and have more than one reaction
to something.
741
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:47,920
And I think that's.
What movies?
742
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,480
What movies bother you like
that, can I ask?
743
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,040
I'm sorry I hate to cut you off,
but just what examples of
744
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:56,440
movies?
One of the best examples is the
745
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,720
first Iron Man film, because
that's AUS Air Force sponsored
746
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,120
kind of mythologizing of the war
in Afghanistan to some extent.
747
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,680
And where the central character
gives this lovely press
748
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,160
conference where he speaks out
against the military industrial
749
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,160
complex and how he's, you know,
spent most of his life making
750
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,000
weapons that have just cost
people their lives and destroyed
751
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,520
property and, you know, just
made things worse.
752
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,480
And then he proceeds to make
this incredibly high tech
753
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:22,760
weapon.
And the rest of the film is
754
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,400
actually about watching him blow
stuff up.
755
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,040
So there is a a contradiction
there in terms of is this film
756
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,560
actually criticizing the war in
the military industrial complex
757
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,880
or not?
Is it glamorizing it or not?
758
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,720
It's a little difficult to say.
Certainly there's a lot of
759
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:41,360
politics in that film that that
bugs me and that frankly, I
760
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,640
disagree with a lot of it.
Nonetheless, it's an enormously
761
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,640
entertaining film.
And Robert Downey Junior was
762
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,200
perfectly cast as Tony Stark.
And it's really fun to watch.
763
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,080
It just is a really fun
superhero origin story.
764
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,880
The first Wonder Woman film
actually feel the same about.
765
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,480
I really like the first Wonder
Woman film just as a piece of
766
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,000
cinema, but it is this
mythologizing of World War One
767
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:05,800
has some weird gender politics
in it.
768
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,440
I have to say some stuff that I
find a bit predatory and
769
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,120
disturbing.
It certainly in moments in a
770
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,840
film it's like that.
And it ends up, as with so many
771
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,800
of these films, in this massive,
overly laden CGI, overly long,
772
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,480
overly loud, sensorily
overwhelming, bloody battle
773
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,840
sequence that doesn't really
tell us anything.
774
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:28,480
It doesn't add that much to the
film.
775
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,480
And that was supported by the
British military, the British
776
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,040
Ministry of Defence, a lot of
these sorts of films.
777
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,320
When I find out who, who
actually supported them, I'm
778
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,920
like, that makes sense.
That's why it has that sort of
779
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,920
politics.
It's either something that that
780
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,640
institution has insisted on in
some cases or at least
781
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,920
encouraged in others, or just
film makers know if we want
782
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,320
their help, we have to flatter
their preconceptions and we have
783
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,120
to flatter their agendas.
And it sometimes it's difficult
784
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,800
to know exactly what's happened
in any individual case, but I'm
785
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,200
just using these superhero
movies as examples because
786
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:02,400
they're the ones that are coming
to mind.
787
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,440
And I wrote a book on on Super
Bowl Co wrote a book on
788
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,400
superhero movies and how a lot
of them are propaganda.
789
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:09,640
What's the cause?
I'd love to read it.
790
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,560
Superheroes movies and was it no
hang on superhero movies and the
791
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,080
state or is it superheroes
movies and the state?
792
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:18,960
I keep forgetting it's the most
recent book I've written.
793
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,120
I can't bloody remember the
title anyway, it's the one.
794
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:22,760
It's the one I wrote with Tricia
Jenkins.
795
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,400
People can if they look up Tom
Seka, Tricia Jenkins superhero
796
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,720
book I'm.
Sure, because movies and the
797
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:29,440
state have the US government
shaped cinema.
798
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,560
Oh man, I am so excited to read
this book.
799
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:32,760
I'm ordering this right now, by
the way.
800
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,680
I love this because you know
what?
801
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,240
And if this is half as well
sourced as as the rest of your
802
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:38,720
site, I'm sure that I'm going to
love it.
803
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:43,880
So then in that case, and can I,
I ask now, how do you, and I've
804
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,240
been thinking a lot about this
for my own life, how do you
805
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,040
filter information, find
information that you feel like
806
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,920
is reliable that isn't just
propaganda?
807
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,080
I have my own answer that I've
really been thinking about a lot
808
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,600
recently, but I'd love to hear
your perspective on this.
809
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,880
Well, that's a tricky one,
because some of the some of this
810
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,920
is theoretical, some of this is
more philosophical or spiritual,
811
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,400
where you just have to try to.
Approach things from lots of
812
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,160
different angles.
Try and spin them around 45��,
813
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,640
ninety degrees, 180��, spin them
on different axes and just see
814
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,400
what does this look like from
different perspectives.
815
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,120
There's also just a quality of
source material thing.
816
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,000
If you're talking about news
media or any kind of journalism
817
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:24,120
is what's the quality of
sources?
818
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,560
Is it all anonymous officials
who were quoted saying such and
819
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,960
such off the record, deep
background.
820
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,560
Well, those people could be
anyone and they could be saying
821
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,960
anything and that journalist
could just be making the whole
822
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,600
damn thing up because no one
checks this stuff.
823
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,360
Editors don't give a damn.
They don't check this stuff.
824
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,520
They don't actually say, well, I
want to hear the recording of
825
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,280
the phone conversation you had
with this source.
826
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,200
They just assume that their
journalist is either telling the
827
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,560
truth or they just don't care if
they're making it up.
828
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,880
So I mean, this is one of the
reasons why I'm so frankly
829
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,200
obsessive and fetishistic about
publishing documents on my site
830
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,880
is to show this is the actual
paper trail I've been able to
831
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,960
find.
You might not agree with every
832
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,520
interpretation Ioffer of it.
You might see other things in it
833
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:06,680
that I've missed.
Of course.
834
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,280
Please, please look and try and
figure that out for yourselves.
835
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,040
That's one of the reasons why I
put it out there is so that at
836
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,360
least people have the primary
source material.
837
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,720
At least they can actually go as
close to the source as possible,
838
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,400
the sort of origin server of the
propaganda machine, and see what
839
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,080
it actually is doing and has
done and has said about itself.
840
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,400
Yeah, like I say, different
interpretations are always
841
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,480
possible.
People can criticize things and
842
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,400
analyse things from different
angles than I can.
843
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,160
I'm only one person.
By trying to see things from
844
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,560
lots of different angles, by
drawing together, you know,
845
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,760
reading a lot of history books,
I've read a lot of philosophy,
846
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,160
critical theory, just loads and
loads of different stuff.
847
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,960
Listen to interviews with
different people, listen to
848
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,040
podcasts with different people.
And try and just let all of that
849
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,960
not necessarily wash, wash over
you, but get into your head.
850
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:54,720
So it's there and it's available
to you.
851
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,320
So when you are being lied to,
you're a bit more likely to go.
852
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:01,440
I've heard something about this
before and I think this person
853
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,160
might be lying to me or at least
making something up to some
854
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,240
degree.
So at least you can filter out
855
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:08,400
the crap.
That's the main thing.
856
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,760
It's like there are no perfect
sources of information.
857
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,120
My website is not perfect.
I am not perfect.
858
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,120
I'm not claiming that at all.
I just try and be better than
859
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,800
most and I try and be as open
source about where I got this
860
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,440
information from as I possibly
can and provide it just as a
861
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,920
public resource, as a thing for
the sheer number of journalists
862
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,320
and students and academics and
teachers and so on who've got in
863
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,200
touch with me over the years.
Either to say I found this
864
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,520
really useful, this thing I
found on your site, or asking
865
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,240
me, do you have anything more on
this?
866
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:37,800
Do you have any other
unpublished files?
867
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,760
And trust me, I have files I
will never get around to
868
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:42,800
publishing.
I may one day do a massive
869
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,440
document dump without any
analysis or anything.
870
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,640
It's your links to everything
I've never published that I've
871
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,520
just, you know, never found the
time to upload and sort through
872
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,760
and write about.
I might do that someday.
873
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,360
But seriously, if you are
interested in this and there is
874
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,840
something that sort of, there's
a little bit of it on my site,
875
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,560
but you may be thinking, well
actually I'd like to know about
876
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,120
some other films like that.
You can e-mail me.
877
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,440
And if I've got any further
documents on it, I will just
878
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,000
send them to people.
I'm not in any way try to keep
879
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,720
this secret or holding anything
back.
880
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:10,080
I want this stuff to be out
there.
881
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,160
I want people to use it.
I want people to read it,
882
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,720
whether they're writing a
master's dissertation or they're
883
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:18,120
writing an article for some
media outlet or if they're just
884
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,840
interested in it, or if you're
just interested in this thing
885
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,120
and want to learn more, you can
feel free to e-mail me.
886
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,560
Or I mean, some people know my
my social media or phone number
887
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,000
or whatever, but mostly it just
emails the best.
888
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,360
If you get me in in touch with
me like that, I will happily
889
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,840
stick something up on a cloud
server and just send you a link.
890
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,640
It doesn't take me very much
time at all.
891
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,640
I'm happy to do it.
Yeah, and I appreciate it.
892
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,880
And again, this is, this is fun
work.
893
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,480
It's important work.
And it's really, and it's and
894
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,680
it's interesting too that that
that's what I love about it.
895
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,480
It's, it's so, it's so niche,
but so relevant.
896
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,720
And one of the three reasons,
the reason why I, the reason why
897
00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:59,440
I became fascinated or even
obsessed with the film world to
898
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,440
begin with was because when I
was younger, I was in high
899
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,880
school and I was always getting
rejected by, by any girl that I
900
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,560
was friends with that, that you
know, that I ever dreamt, dreamt
901
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,800
to be more than that.
And, and I was, and I called
902
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,520
myself this hopeless Roman,
yeah, I'm OK now, this hopeless
903
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,520
romantic.
And I thought to myself one day
904
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:20,800
I was talking to a couple of
friends of mine.
905
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,560
I'm like, what does it even mean
to be romantic?
906
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,480
And like, every time I think
romantic, I think of like an
907
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,640
Adam Sandler movie walking on
the beach and 51st dates or
908
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,280
something like that.
And I don't even know what the
909
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,120
word means.
And then I realized how much of
910
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,720
my understanding of everything
I've kind of left up to, to to
911
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:38,600
film and to movies and to
entertainment that to dictate to
912
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:44,200
me what things should be.
And, and in some cases it's
913
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:45,840
better.
In some cases I realize it was
914
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:46,960
worse.
And I said, you know, I want to
915
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,040
be a part of this to try to have
a positive, you know, influence.
916
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:55,880
But I think that I think that I
think that people realize this.
917
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,960
And I think the work that you're
doing is really, really cool and
918
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,640
really, really fun.
And again, spyculture.com and
919
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,000
I'll put the link to it in the
in the in the what do you call
920
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,680
it in the show notes for sure.
The way the way you described is
921
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,480
very similar to what I actually
had concluded as well, which was
922
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,840
pretty much, I feel like we can
end the film world is kind of
923
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,560
like this too.
We can either live in a world
924
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,360
where an algorithm algorithm is
pushed on us, or we can kind of
925
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,720
build our own algorithm of our
own trains of thought.
926
00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:24,800
And what you said about history,
I thought was particularly
927
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,440
insightful and relevant because
the more that the more that I'm,
928
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,920
you know, keeping up with
current events while
929
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,280
simultaneously reading history
or learning, learning about the
930
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,400
places that the current events
are occurring in, the more I
931
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:43,480
realize that nothing really has
been is that new and, and all
932
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,520
this has been done before.
And so one of the best markers
933
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:53,200
of how of ways to determine
information I've noticed is to
934
00:45:53,680 --> 00:46:00,720
find a, is to find a simple and
reasonable motive like money,
935
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,000
for example.
You got to make money.
936
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,800
You got to have profits.
You know, if there's a war in
937
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,520
Venezuela, are we trying to
kidnap their, you know, their,
938
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,960
their, their leader.
What you know, what, what, what,
939
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,280
what, what is there to follow is
that, you know, historically,
940
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:13,960
have we ever been involved in
Venezuela?
941
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,160
Who has relationships with
Venezuela historically?
942
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,520
And what have they been
importing or exporting and what
943
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,520
are they valuing?
And then you say, it's so easy
944
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,760
to see, you know, but all you
had to do is do a couple of a
945
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:25,960
couple of you had to do a couple
of deep dives or listen to a
946
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,280
couple of podcasts about the
history or read a book or two.
947
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,600
You could sit on the couch and
let everyone yell at you what
948
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,440
they think it is.
And the more that you engage in
949
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,720
it, the more specific the
bubble's going to be.
950
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,000
But that's allowing the
algorithm to happen to you as
951
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,840
opposed to you shaping your own
your own perspective, I feel
952
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,400
like.
I mean, absolutely, I agree with
953
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,120
that.
I don't use social media much
954
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,880
partly because it's now been so
algorithms that it's impossible
955
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:54,360
to find anything you really want
to see.
956
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:59,680
Or half the time it is also it
it that sit on the couch, let
957
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,400
the TV shout at you kind of
approach to understanding the
958
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,400
world will just make me put
people more shallow and more
959
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,480
impulsive.
Rather than be a being able to
960
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,240
have that self-discipline to
reflect and challenge their own
961
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:15,200
assumptions.
And maybe clear out some of this
962
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:19,560
accumulated soul baggage and
soul poison that we've been
963
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,560
subjected to in a lot of ways or
sometimes allowed into ourselves
964
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,160
over the years or decades that
we've been alive.
965
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,200
And you're right, this sort of
this sort of propaganda,
966
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,480
cultural propaganda in
particular, has been around for
967
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,080
as long as human civilization
has been around.
968
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,600
I I was a theatre studies
student at school and one of the
969
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,560
things we learnt about, yeah,
shocker.
970
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:45,800
Yeah.
One of the things we learnt
971
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,920
about was how in ancient Athens,
a lot of the plays that they put
972
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,880
on were designed to be cathartic
for the audience.
973
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,600
They were designed to help
cleanse the the citizens and
974
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,400
civilians of Athenian society,
ancient Athenian society, of
975
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,920
whatever was plaguing them, of
whatever was bothering them,
976
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,560
that there was a psychological
or soulful aim here.
977
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,960
And OK, that was something
imposed by the Athenian elites
978
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,680
and then almost unabashedly, and
it's something we know quite a
979
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,040
lot about now.
If you if you're fascinated by
980
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,600
ancient Athens, as I have
sometimes been, is that a good
981
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,360
thing or a bad thing?
Is it partly good?
982
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,560
Is it partly bad?
Was it sometimes a good thing
983
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,560
and sometimes a bad thing?
Consider those kinds of
984
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:29,440
perspectives rather than this
sort of knee jerk.
985
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,840
It has to be good or it has to
be bad or it is propaganda.
986
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,880
Therefore it's this, you know,
that kind of impulsive, shallow.
987
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:36,680
It's this.
Therefore it has to be that or
988
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:38,000
it has to be this thing, all
that thing.
989
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,720
It can't be both.
It can't be neither.
990
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,920
That in particular I'd I'd say
is one of the most important
991
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,600
critical thinking skills to to
develop and to try and
992
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,520
internalize is whenever anyone
is telling you it's either one
993
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,240
thing or another, this binary
thinking, you have to make a
994
00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:55,000
binary choice between it's
either pro this thing or anti
995
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,760
this thing.
Ask yourself the question, is it
996
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:02,000
both or neither to try and
remind yourself of that question
997
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,560
and you'll, you'll make a, a
quantum leap forward in your
998
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:09,160
critical thinking and your
ability to resist the easy
999
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,880
temptation of just going, Oh,
well, it has to be one of these
1000
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:13,160
things.
So I'll just pick, I'll pick
1001
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,680
inside the column A of column B.
So I'll pick column B and and
1002
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,840
that's who I am and that's who
I, I will always be.
1003
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,200
Don't do that.
Basically just don't do that.
1004
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,360
Have the self-discipline and the
self respect to go.
1005
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,000
I think this is actually a bunch
of crap, and it's neither.
1006
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:27,800
I think there's another
perspective here where there
1007
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,800
might even be a hundred other
perspectives here.
1008
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,640
Or maybe it's actually both
simultaneously, as paradoxical
1009
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:35,520
and self contradictory as that
might appear.
1010
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,360
Sometimes paradoxical self
contradictory things are true.
1011
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,960
Yes, a lot of times they are.
A lot of times they are.
1012
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:44,480
Yeah.
I, I mean, I don't know if I
1013
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,200
don't know if this made you its
way into the, into the UK news
1014
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,040
cycle, but in the States, we're
having this, you know, enormous
1015
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:55,280
conflict with ICE in the state
of Minnesota just the other day.
1016
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,160
It looks, it doesn't look good.
I don't know the full context,
1017
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:02,560
but there was this, this, this,
I, I believe an ICU nurse was,
1018
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,640
was killed by ICE and he had,
and he had a, and he had a gun
1019
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,960
on him, although he had never
taken it out.
1020
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,480
They only discovered that he had
the gun once he was, I think
1021
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:17,320
already getting kind of beaten
up a little bit or pushed around
1022
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,080
a little bit.
And then once they discovered
1023
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,040
the gun, I think that was an
excuse to go, you know, to
1024
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,680
continue whatever they're up to,
which is essentially I, it's
1025
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,760
killing him.
I mean that they, they, he was,
1026
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,800
he was killed as from what I see
from my, from from what I was
1027
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,400
able to see from the from the.
Video.
1028
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,320
I agree.
And, and then do this enormous
1029
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,880
immediate response on the right
and again, a right that, that
1030
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,240
I'm not criticizing for the sake
of criticizing because I don't
1031
00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:46,760
like the left or the right or I
don't like, I'm historically
1032
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:47,520
left or right.
I'm not.
1033
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,200
I, I, I, I haven't been
historically politically
1034
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,040
anything because everything has
been so inconsistent that it's
1035
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,560
that I've had my own values and
everyone's been letting me down
1036
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:58,800
about it.
But like, you can't have a gun.
1037
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,360
And if, if you go to, if you go
to, you can't carry a gun if you
1038
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,480
go to protest, like you can't
carry a gun if you go to
1039
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,000
protest.
If you said the same thing
1040
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,680
three-year, if, if the Joe Biden
administration or the Obama
1041
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,640
administration said the same
thing, you would be on the
1042
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,560
street with pitchfork say, you
know, I mean, I don't even know
1043
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:19,320
what you're talking about.
And so to demand that your that
1044
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:26,320
that that your base abandoned
their values to be on your side
1045
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,280
is it is, is, is just, I mean,
if politics feels like Hollywood
1046
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,320
now, politics feels like it's an
extension of Hollywood.
1047
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,920
Tim Dylan, who's an awesome
comedian and very, very funny,
1048
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,760
and I'm split about what I think
about what he thinks, but I
1049
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,720
think that he's endlessly
entertaining and brilliant.
1050
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:44,480
And I think that he says the
same thing.
1051
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,040
He's like, it just feels like
this is just like a it's just a
1052
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:48,760
show.
It's a movie and it just feels
1053
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,000
dumb at this point.
And I can't help but but think
1054
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,720
that a lot of people around the
world are becoming more and more
1055
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:56,920
aware of this and feel that way
very, very strongly.
1056
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,120
For sure.
I mean, politics is just
1057
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:05,280
Hollywood for ugly people.
As was it Jack Valenti said that
1058
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,880
or something.
Anyway, whoever it was who said
1059
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,280
that, it's just.
It's a great phrase.
1060
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,000
It's a great quote.
Yeah.
1061
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,120
This is what they do.
They just gaslight people.
1062
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,680
They light them up and they.
I mean, they, they killed that
1063
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,400
guy, certainly.
And from what I've seen, I've
1064
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,000
mostly, I don't know if it's
actually been in the English
1065
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,680
British media cycle much at all.
I followed it.
1066
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:25,880
What I know about that, I
followed through the project on
1067
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,720
government oversight, which is,
in my opinion, a very good
1068
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:30,720
organization.
They do a lot of good e-mail
1069
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:32,480
bulletins.
And I actually get caught up on
1070
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,240
quite a lot of things quite
quickly that way.
1071
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:39,440
But yeah, they they project on
government oversight.
1072
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:43,280
I think it's pogo.org.
Certainly I recommend people
1073
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,120
taking a look at their e-mail
newsletters and maybe signing up
1074
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,160
for those.
It's a much better way than to
1075
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:49,040
it.
For sure.
1076
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:50,200
Awesome.
Thank you.
1077
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:51,920
Yeah.
So anyway, I'm sorry, continue
1078
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:52,560
your thought.
I'm sorry.
1079
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:55,760
Well, this is what it's going to
say, that they've somehow
1080
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,280
convinced, like you say, if this
has been Biden who'd said this,
1081
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,720
that you can no longer in any
way have a gun at a protest.
1082
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,440
I think there are quite
substantial portions of people
1083
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,320
on the on the right,
particularly the libertarian
1084
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,160
right, who would be absolutely
apoplectic about this.
1085
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,400
They would be rejecting it.
They would be saying this is
1086
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,800
government authoritarianism.
We're not going to stand for
1087
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,080
this.
We're not going to take this.
1088
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,480
And in my opinion, to some
extent, quite rightly, if I
1089
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,560
lived in the States, I, they
don't know.
1090
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:23,640
I suppose it depends which part
of the states I lived in as to
1091
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,480
whether I would have a gun.
I certainly don't have some kind
1092
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,880
of blanket.
No one should ever own private
1093
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:30,760
firearms.
People own private firearms in
1094
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,600
this country.
And it's not, it's not like a
1095
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,880
significant problem as far as I
can tell, outside of, you know,
1096
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,280
gangland and, you know,
organized crime.
1097
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,120
It's mostly, it's mostly just
people who I don't know, maybe
1098
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,800
do a bit of hunting, maybe they
live on farms or something.
1099
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,040
It's much more of a rural thing
than a city thing in this
1100
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,880
country.
But at any rate, you're right
1101
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,440
that that sheer hypocrisy of,
oh, we're now accepting, we're
1102
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,880
now somehow being gas lit into
believing that this principle
1103
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,880
that we've stood by and there's
been a real sort of maybe it's
1104
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,280
not a principle, just a general
attitude in politics for a long,
1105
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,440
long time that we don't want the
government dictating to us
1106
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:11,080
whether or not we're allowed to
carry firearms or what exactly
1107
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:12,920
were allowed to do with them or
not do with them.
1108
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,480
Whether you agree with that
belief or not, it is one that's
1109
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,960
been maintained by the American
right for a long time.
1110
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,080
And yet all it takes is to
suggest, oh, because it's about
1111
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,280
now about immigration, It's now
about ICE and immigration
1112
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,080
enforcement.
Oh, now you have to be on the
1113
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,760
side of that.
So now you have to choose, are
1114
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,080
you in favor of privately owned
firearms or are you in favor of
1115
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,080
cracking down on the, on the
so-called bleeding illegal
1116
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,520
immigrants, whoever, whoever the
hell you think these people are?
1117
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,440
And I mean, it's not like you
can tell by looking at someone
1118
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,120
where they were born or whether
they've got certain paperwork
1119
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,120
and so on and so on.
And yeah, from what I
1120
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:49,120
understand, the ICE officers, if
you want to call them that
1121
00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:51,680
escalated that situation.
They basically picked a fight,
1122
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,080
escalated it, and then when
things started to go bad, they
1123
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,320
killed someone.
And it's just the same as we've
1124
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,960
seen from police and FBI and all
sorts of, especially government
1125
00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:03,120
federal agencies and the big
city police departments.
1126
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:04,880
They do this sort of thing all
the time.
1127
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,120
They provoke situations, they
pick fights, they escalate them.
1128
00:55:08,240 --> 00:55:10,240
And if anyone fights back,
suddenly the person who's
1129
00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:12,760
fighting back is the problem,
but they're not.
1130
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:17,360
Wrist is what they call them.
Something like that lone wolf
1131
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:19,840
whatever, some sort of absurd
media label.
1132
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:22,200
But it's, it's just bollocks to
be honest.
1133
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,760
It's just bullshit.
People are allowed to reject the
1134
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:26,800
authority of the state.
They're allowed to fight back
1135
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,520
against it, especially when it's
actively impressing them in that
1136
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,600
moment.
It's not, it's not like this
1137
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,120
person went and shot a
politician because of something
1138
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,400
they said three years ago.
That's, that's, that's a very,
1139
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,160
very different thing that we're
talking about.
1140
00:55:38,720 --> 00:55:40,840
People are allowed to rebel
against the government.
1141
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:42,640
If you're not allowed to rebel
against the government, then
1142
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,040
you're essentially living in a
fascist security state.
1143
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:47,640
And I I don't want to live in a
fascist security state and
1144
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:51,240
pretty much no one does.
Well, some people do, but, but I
1145
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:53,360
think that they don't, they
don't think about the
1146
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:54,480
repercussions.
I think.
1147
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,840
And I'm actually trying to teach
my students about a lot of that
1148
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:58,880
stuff now.
I'm teaching them the, the the
1149
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:00,040
giver.
Now, I don't know if you if you
1150
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,840
remember that book, but that was
that was that was a really good
1151
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,040
example of it.
Yeah.
1152
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:07,560
And you know what?
And I don't think there's
1153
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:08,760
anything wrong.
Like I've had friends that
1154
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:10,200
brought it up to me because it's
funny.
1155
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,680
I tend to be on the left-leaning
end of my, you know, for my
1156
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,760
right wing friends and then more
right wing for my left wing
1157
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:18,880
left-leaning friends.
But they're like, what do you
1158
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,680
think of this Sound like, dude,
I think it's terrible.
1159
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,080
Every time a government agent
kills a civic kills a citizen of
1160
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:26,800
their of their, of their
government period.
1161
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,360
Like if you want to talk about
how it has to escalate the
1162
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,680
particular one off, whether it
could have happened or whether
1163
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,280
it shouldn't have happened, you
know, we could talk about that
1164
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,320
particular case.
I was like, but dude, like you
1165
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:41,560
can say I want to get rid of the
let's say whatever you say you
1166
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,760
are against having the, the
immigrants in this country
1167
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,360
undocumented or illegal or we're
trying to get them out.
1168
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:49,760
Let's say you're for that.
That doesn't mean you're for
1169
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:51,960
government killing citizens like
that one.
1170
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:53,920
A does not equal B.
They're not mutual.
1171
00:56:54,240 --> 00:56:58,080
They're not mutually exclusive.
And it's not fair to, it's, it's
1172
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:01,000
not fair to ask people to line
themselves up with that camp and
1173
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:02,240
again, throw away all their
values.
1174
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:05,520
But I, I digress.
I'm going to talk.
1175
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:09,400
I want to, I want to actually, I
want to ask your thoughts, if
1176
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,040
you don't mind.
And maybe this is a little
1177
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:14,240
bonkers, but I don't know if it
is, what's your thoughts on the
1178
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:20,280
relationship between the
government, Hollywood, aliens,
1179
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:21,960
or a little bit more of the
paranormal stuff?
1180
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,640
Because there's a lot of
documentation that the
1181
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,400
government at least takes this
stuff very seriously.
1182
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,720
There's a lot of, there's a lot
I, I don't know, I have to
1183
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,280
actually find the hard documents
about Spielberg being associated
1184
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,080
with the government.
But certainly I heard that
1185
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,120
there's, there's a lot of
relationships there.
1186
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,000
Do you have anything on that or
do you know anything?
1187
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,400
About that, Well, Spielberg has
definitely made a whole bunch of
1188
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,000
films that were supported by
government agencies, an awful
1189
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:48,800
lot of which star Tom Hanks, if
you want to.
1190
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,400
Yeah, for some reason he's, he's
just addicted to making state
1191
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,320
sponsored propaganda with Tom
Hanks relief was for about 20
1192
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:57,720
years.
You know, certainly the the
1193
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:03,400
aliens thing that has shifted.
It used to be for a long time
1194
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:08,160
that the military would reject
any UFO movie, extraterrestrial
1195
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:10,480
movie, anything like that.
They had a big fight on
1196
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,200
Independence Day in the mid 90s
over whether or not they were
1197
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,040
going to support that film,
which included bizarre stuff
1198
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,680
like some military official
actually wrote a memo saying
1199
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:24,160
that the Area 51 facility that
they go to in the third act of
1200
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,640
the film, second third act of
the film, that that should
1201
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,640
actually not be run by the
government in any way.
1202
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,160
And they wanted it to be some
kind of, you know, nonprofit,
1203
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,680
fairly vague organization, sort
of non state in some fashion.
1204
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,000
And one of these military
officials even suggested having
1205
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,560
that facility be run by an
extraterrestrial disguised as a
1206
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:45,920
human being.
So this is some kind of, you
1207
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:51,080
know, David Icke, lizard man,
shapeshifter, I don't know what.
1208
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,040
It's a really bizarre thing to
read in one of these one of
1209
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,680
these documents.
Like what do you make of that?
1210
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,440
Well, maybe that military
official just liked David Icke
1211
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,920
like that sort of idea.
I don't know.
1212
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,520
But certainly since the
certainly since the turn of the
1213
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:13,360
2000s, the military has now been
involved in a tonne of
1214
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:17,440
extraterrestrial and UFO movies.
Spielberg's version of War of
1215
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,240
the Worlds, which I'm not a big
fan of that film.
1216
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,480
I have to say I did do a podcast
on it some years ago, or I was
1217
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,760
on a podcast discussing it some
years ago and it was just kind
1218
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:27,840
of like petty gripes, the
podcast.
1219
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:31,080
Every single scene we had some
kind of gripe out, pretty much.
1220
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,280
It's a good time and I hope you
had a couple of Guinness, a
1221
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:36,720
couple of beers of you or
something like that.
1222
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,040
We do, we do have a good time
talking about that and having
1223
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:41,400
having a good bitch about the
film.
1224
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:45,800
But that had that an absolute
ton of military support of all
1225
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:47,960
the, all the documents that I've
been able to find on that,
1226
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,760
they're all on my site now.
And then into the late 2000s,
1227
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:56,480
early 2000 and 10s, you get
Pacific Rim and that battle Los
1228
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:59,720
Angeles and a whole bunch of
other alien or extraterrestrial
1229
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:03,840
invasion movies.
The first Superman Warner DC
1230
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,200
Universe film, Man of Steel, is
essentially an alien invasion.
1231
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:09,640
Film.
It's not really a superhero
1232
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:11,520
film, it just happens to have
Superman in it.
1233
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,200
It's otherwise a moderately
generic alien invasion film.
1234
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:17,360
Loads of military support on
that one.
1235
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:19,120
On and on.
I mean, you can.
1236
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,520
You can lead.
Read a list of these things on
1237
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,160
my site.
Captain Marvel was a centrepiece
1238
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:26,800
of this.
It was a centrepiece of this
1239
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:32,160
effort to try to essentially
weaponize the UFO movie to
1240
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:34,240
promote the militarization of
space.
1241
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,280
And they've been trying to push
some version of the military's
1242
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,520
been trying to push some version
of this, you know, boots on the
1243
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:43,720
moon, bases on the moon, some
kind of satellite based weaponry
1244
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:48,560
since I think the early 70s was
as far back as I was able to, to
1245
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,760
find anything on it.
So that has been building for a
1246
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,480
while.
And when you see in the 2000 and
1247
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,480
10s, you have all of these UFO
declassifications, all of these
1248
01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:59,600
videos, all of these documents,
they're suddenly saying,
1249
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,200
actually, we've had a ton of
this stuff for decades and we're
1250
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:03,680
now just going to dump it all
online.
1251
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,040
Hundreds and hundreds of
thousands of pages of documents,
1252
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:09,320
UFO files from the Navy, the Air
Force, whoever, same in this
1253
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,040
country.
British Ministry of Defence just
1254
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,840
started dumping.
Yeah, vast amounts of
1255
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,360
documentation through the
National Archives, finally
1256
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:17,880
admitting that.
Yeah, actually we seem to have
1257
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,120
had a whole bunch of.
It's not just some crackpot
1258
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:22,280
who's stoned and sat on a
hillside who's claimed they've
1259
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,720
seen a UFO.
It's actually our own military
1260
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,320
officials who are saying they've
been abducted at times and
1261
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,120
things like that.
So whether or not you believe
1262
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:32,440
those things, make your own
judgment calls.
1263
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:37,000
I, I don't know, actually, a lot
of the time I'm not sure why I
1264
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,160
think of a lot of that stuff,
but certainly there is this
1265
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:42,720
thing in the 2000 and 10s when
Space Force got on the military
1266
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:47,320
agenda again, they started
pushing it in Hollywood in 2015
1267
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,560
I believe.
And this was done covertly.
1268
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:51,960
This wasn't done through
specific film projects they were
1269
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,440
working on.
It was actually a producer at
1270
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:59,280
Marvel at the time called Jeremy
Latcham, who Trisha interviewed
1271
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,040
for our superhero book,
superhero movie book.
1272
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:06,560
And he said there was this
senior Air Force Colonel
1273
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,640
general, certainly a high up
official, high up officer in the
1274
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,080
Air Force hierarchy, who was out
in Hollywood shortly after the
1275
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:17,160
2nd Avengers movie came out,
Avengers Age of Ultron.
1276
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:21,040
And that was in 2015, two
thousand and 1516.
1277
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:25,040
Before Trump even gets elected
the first time, the US military
1278
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,200
are pushing Space Force in
Hollywood and pushing the
1279
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,360
weaponization and militarization
of Space Force in Hollywood.
1280
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,800
So then Trump comes in and he
sort of latches onto this thing.
1281
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:36,240
It was obviously a Pentagon
plan.
1282
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,080
It's I know it was branded as a
Donald Trump thing.
1283
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,320
It wasn't.
The Pentagon were pushing this
1284
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:44,600
for years, if not decades before
Trump ever even got into office
1285
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,000
the first go round.
And then he becomes so, you
1286
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:48,920
know, makes this big
announcement, this whole new
1287
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:51,320
branch of the military, all the
rest of it.
1288
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:53,600
And around the time that Trump
starts making these
1289
01:02:53,600 --> 01:03:00,000
announcements, the Air Force ran
a tour essentially kind of junk
1290
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,760
it for Hollywood types going to
Space Command.
1291
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:06,920
And among the people who went on
that tour were the producers and
1292
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:09,320
the two Co directors of Captain
Marvel.
1293
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,040
So then Captain Marvel comes out
right as Space Force is being
1294
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:14,960
officially founded, give or
take.
1295
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:18,000
This timeline is I've, I've put
this on on my site and I think I
1296
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:21,160
did an episode on Captain Marvel
and I've done other articles on
1297
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:25,160
this.
This was clearly a concerted and
1298
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:29,560
coherent propaganda effort to
take the supposed threat of
1299
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,240
alien invasion and use it
through Hollywood among other
1300
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:36,560
means, but through Hollywood as
a justification for militarizing
1301
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,400
and weaponizing space.
It's like it's the new threat.
1302
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:43,720
It's no longer or alongside the
terrorists and the ISIS and
1303
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:45,800
Russians and Chinese and all the
other threats that they
1304
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:47,880
constantly bombard us with and
tell us are they sort of
1305
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,280
existential threat, existential
risk to our civilizations.
1306
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:53,960
It's now we've got to worry
about the the you know, green
1307
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,360
headed multi eyed Martians or
whatever, whoever, whoever the
1308
01:03:57,360 --> 01:03:59,280
hell they are in all these
different films.
1309
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:02,800
And so many of those films are
supported by the military.
1310
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:07,040
The CIA has had a slightly
different history with this
1311
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:09,760
because sometimes they've
actually pushed or encouraged
1312
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:15,160
ufology as a subculture.
They've sometimes, it seems,
1313
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:18,560
been involved in UFO movies
going back to the day the Earth
1314
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,480
stood still in the early 1950s.
That some people believe was
1315
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:25,520
some kind of CIA experiment to
see how people would respond to
1316
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,400
this or what they thought of it
or to just put the idea out
1317
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:29,720
there.
You know, just trying to
1318
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:32,760
acclimatize people to this idea
that there might be a big alien
1319
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:36,400
invasion or alien alien arrival
at some point.
1320
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:39,680
And maybe it's already happened
and it just all got covered up
1321
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:41,720
or something weird.
And we don't know, do we?
1322
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:46,720
We don't know if, if Roswell, NM
if there was a crash in 47, it
1323
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,880
seems there was most of the
evidence tends towards something
1324
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,240
happened there, but what the
hell it actually was.
1325
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,880
I don't know.
I I mean, I, I haven't dug into
1326
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:58,480
it in great depth or anything,
but just I mean as much of how.
1327
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:00,640
Contact.
The what?
1328
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:01,560
Once the what?
Sorry.
1329
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,480
It was called moment of contact.
I don't.
1330
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,440
I've only become aware of it
very recently and it was about a
1331
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:17,120
Brazilian case where apparently
a crashed UFO and beings were
1332
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,880
not only recovered, but
actually, and there's records of
1333
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:25,800
this.
There was a, there was an alien
1334
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,360
or not human entity that was
taken to a that was taken to two
1335
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:33,760
regional hospitals in Brazil. 1
turned it away at the door and
1336
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:39,520
the other one got checked out
And the officer that had handled
1337
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:43,040
actually like scooped up the
injured being got a little bit
1338
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:48,000
of bacteria under its nail, his
nail and died very short very
1339
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:52,520
shortly after.
And then they just got when you
1340
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,560
locked this up just the other,
just the other day, the head
1341
01:05:55,560 --> 01:06:01,160
neuro, the head neurosurgeon, I
believe at the hospital to, to
1342
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:05,720
come before Congress and say
that I had contact.
1343
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:09,960
I had eyes on this being for
several minutes and was and,
1344
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:14,160
and, and, and, and he had, and,
and then there was a group of
1345
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:17,320
other doctors that had worked
with him for 3035 years that all
1346
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:20,760
are testifying to his very sound
state of mind and being.
1347
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:24,440
And like, you don't know what,
that, what that meat, you know,
1348
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,000
I mean, and I, I, I, I, if
you're interested in this kind
1349
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:30,280
of thing or like the potential
truth of it, moment of contact
1350
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:34,000
and, and a lot of work is being,
is unfolding in real time right
1351
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:35,320
now.
And I don't know what to make of
1352
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:38,480
it either.
Like this stuff is this stuff is
1353
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:42,560
wild, but it does feel like
we've been like I, I, there's a
1354
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:47,080
very, it feels like it's been a
slow drip exposure event that
1355
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:49,160
like over the course of time,
people are becoming more and
1356
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:52,480
more, you know, through film and
through lore and through
1357
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,040
podcasts and through
information, people are becoming
1358
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:57,920
more and more open to this
concept when particular in
1359
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,280
America, it's it's so ridiculed,
it's crazy.
1360
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:04,440
And well, I think it's it's
simultaneously being normalized
1361
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,280
and ridiculed, which makes it a
little difficult to understand
1362
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:09,640
what's the agenda here?
Is it only one agenda or the
1363
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:12,520
multiple agendas in terms of the
propaganda around this
1364
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:14,360
particular subject?
Sure.
1365
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:17,960
Like countering the thing that
bothers me the most about it is
1366
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:21,680
that people see this thing, that
OK, so we do seem to be getting
1367
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:24,680
more and more evidence of
intelligent life beyond Earth.
1368
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:29,200
And that is most likely, it
would seem by now, unless all of
1369
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,320
these things are somehow
fabricated or all of these
1370
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:32,880
things are somehow
hallucinations.
1371
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,720
It seems that there has been
some kind of alien crash, alien
1372
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,120
visitations, abductions, things
like that.
1373
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:40,320
These things do seem to have
happened.
1374
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:42,400
As.
As if I had to, if I had to
1375
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:44,240
hedge my bets, that's the side
I'd go on.
1376
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:47,720
Yeah, but how, how is the system
responding to that?
1377
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:50,240
Is it saying actually, it says
this could be a great thing,
1378
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:53,040
This could actually be an
amazing thing for the human
1379
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:54,520
race?
It's going no, no, no.
1380
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:56,440
They're a threat.
There's something we have to
1381
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:58,440
militate against.
There's something we have to be
1382
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:02,640
afraid of that we go back to
that, you know, that that very
1383
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:05,520
negative energy, that very
negative response to it.
1384
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:10,280
We we revert to the to seeing it
as a national security threat
1385
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:12,840
when it's like, well, it isn't
even a national security threat
1386
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:14,360
anyway.
If it is a security threat, it's
1387
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:17,640
a global threat.
But I don't really see it as a
1388
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:19,399
threat anyway.
I mean.
1389
01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:22,920
Because we're all here.
Well, if this has been going on
1390
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:25,720
since the 40s or 50s, like
everyone's been saying, or even
1391
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:29,359
longer than that, I mean, they
loves us alone to be here for me
1392
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:32,000
and you to be talking, you know,
I mean, like life is still going
1393
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:32,960
on.
Things are OK.
1394
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,359
And if anything, a lot of the
speculation is that a lot of the
1395
01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:39,200
great advancements that we've
made have been have have been
1396
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:41,120
as, as, as a consequence of
their technology.
1397
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,800
And so like you said, it doesn't
seem like it's it's going to be
1398
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,479
a threat as much as an
opportunity to evolve.
1399
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:51,359
Or just an opportunity to learn
more and try to understand
1400
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:54,120
ourselves better, which I guess,
yeah, I mean, that's what you're
1401
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:55,319
saying.
That's a form of spiritual
1402
01:08:55,319 --> 01:08:56,760
evolvement.
Or yeah, yeah.
1403
01:08:57,319 --> 01:08:59,439
Evolvement, but also
technological evolvement.
1404
01:08:59,920 --> 01:09:01,760
Evolution.
It would seem that that is,
1405
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:05,840
again, if, if we, if we assume
that these crashes and things
1406
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:08,439
and, and landings and whatever
else has happened have taken
1407
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:12,000
place, it would make sense that
some of that technology has been
1408
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:14,439
reverse engineered and
understood and has found its way
1409
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:17,200
into something that we're now
using.
1410
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:20,680
I mean, does anyone really
understand, for example, how the
1411
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:22,439
Internet works and where it came
from?
1412
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:24,479
Because it's lots of different
pieces from lots of different
1413
01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:27,399
places that have to come
together in a particular way for
1414
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:30,760
us to get the Internet that
actually works, including things
1415
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:32,840
like encryption and decryption
in the Internet.
1416
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:38,279
And you know, I won't get into a
lengthy Babble about my concerns
1417
01:09:38,279 --> 01:09:40,880
about exactly where the Internet
came from and my questions about
1418
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:42,560
that.
But all of these technologies
1419
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,800
that we now enjoy and many of
which are really cool in terms
1420
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,439
of facilitating this
conversation, for example,
1421
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:51,840
wouldn't be possible back in the
90s.
1422
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:52,960
We just wouldn't be able to have
it.
1423
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:55,560
I don't think wouldn't even be
able to get in touch.
1424
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:57,400
Wouldn't be I wouldn't even had
a website.
1425
01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:59,640
You wouldn't even had a podcast.
It just wouldn't have happened.
1426
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:03,120
And that's not that long ago.
So that's great.
1427
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:04,760
You're.
In the bucket, literal drop in
1428
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:07,800
the bucket relative to to
everything else you know.
1429
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:13,520
And so I, I don't see it as a
threat, partly just because I've
1430
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:17,400
spent my whole adult life living
in this politics of fear world
1431
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,360
where almost everything is
described in scary terms and
1432
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:22,600
everything is a threat.
And it doesn't matter which
1433
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,120
person or type of person we're
talking about, which country
1434
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:28,240
we're talking about, which I
mean, people, people blather on
1435
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,400
about like social media being a
threat.
1436
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:33,680
Well, it's just a technology.
It depends on how we choose to
1437
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:36,920
use it and how we use it.
Otherwise, it's just a bunch of
1438
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:39,000
apps and websites.
It's not inherently threatening
1439
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:42,920
to anyone.
So we have to make, we have to
1440
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,080
make better choices.
To be honest with a lot of these
1441
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:49,440
things, and I'll say that, but I
just, I generally reject this
1442
01:10:49,440 --> 01:10:56,320
mentality of, of making fear the
primary reaction to things.
1443
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:59,640
I've lived with enough, enough
fear in my own personal life
1444
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:02,720
because I mean, some people know
this, a lot of people know this.
1445
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:05,480
I suffer from PTSD.
I'm not going to get into
1446
01:11:05,480 --> 01:11:08,320
exactly what's happened to me.
It's caused that, but it's a
1447
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:10,000
long term, it's a long term
condition.
1448
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:12,760
So I know fear.
I know fear better than I think
1449
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:15,320
most people do, or at least I've
lived with a lot more fear than
1450
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:17,520
a lot of people have.
And so I kind of just almost
1451
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:20,920
reflexively reject it when the
media tries to impose it on me,
1452
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,280
or when politicians try to
impose it on me and others.
1453
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:25,440
And fuck that.
No, we've got more than enough
1454
01:11:25,440 --> 01:11:27,440
fear in this world.
We don't need more.
1455
01:11:27,440 --> 01:11:30,800
We don't need to artificially
make people more traumatized and
1456
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:33,920
more fearful and more anxious
and more stressed and more
1457
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,720
paranoid, because frankly, we've
had enough.
1458
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:38,960
We've suffered enough from this
stuff anyway.
1459
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:41,440
I certainly have in my own life.
I know loads of other people who
1460
01:11:41,440 --> 01:11:44,120
have too.
And so, yeah, I, I just almost
1461
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:47,040
knee jerk reflexively go, no, I
don't, I don't buy this thing,
1462
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:50,000
this latest threat that you've
lined up and you're now hyping
1463
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:53,320
up in the media and maybe you've
been hyping up for years,
1464
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:57,320
decades, possibly centuries in
some things, with some things.
1465
01:11:57,560 --> 01:11:59,880
I just don't buy it.
I don't want to buy it.
1466
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:02,280
And so unless someone shows me
some incredibly compelling
1467
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:05,760
evidence that we are being
bombarded by alien attacks
1468
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:08,840
without somehow noticing it,
then I'm, I'm just, I'm just not
1469
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:10,280
buying that worldview.
I'm not buying.
1470
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:12,880
It's not even a worldview.
It's a universe view, a Galaxy
1471
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:15,000
view, a solar system view,
whatever you want to call it.
1472
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:17,000
I just don't buy that way of
looking at things.
1473
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:20,880
Yeah, well, I mean, we do know
that the most effective way to
1474
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,880
control people is through fear,
right, Because fear, I think my
1475
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:27,760
understanding of at least my
fear of my fears in general, and
1476
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:32,600
I tend to be a pretty fearful
person as as far as historically
1477
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:38,320
is, is the is I feel like fear
for a lot of people is the is
1478
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:42,720
the in the the the cut you're
you're not confident in your
1479
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:45,720
ability to handle the unknown or
what you're about to face.
1480
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,600
And and and that's why people
like familiarity.
1481
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:51,920
And that's how people prefer
even to struggle with a similar
1482
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:54,880
issue than potentially face an
unknown solution.
1483
01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:57,960
That which is a famous
expression that out of the the
1484
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:00,480
devil that you that you know,
then the solution that you don't
1485
01:13:00,480 --> 01:13:03,080
know.
And I think that a lot of people
1486
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:06,360
feel like that.
But I think that, listen, if you
1487
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:09,880
want to study people and big
and, and groups of people and
1488
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:12,960
fear, you don't have to look
much further than COVID.
1489
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:15,760
You don't have to look further
than Trump's, you know, entire
1490
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:18,160
political career.
You don't have to look further
1491
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:20,160
than Biden's, Biden's
presidency.
1492
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:23,680
I mean, the, the you, you can
look anywhere and everything is
1493
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:26,560
just about a culture of and this
is the worst thing ever.
1494
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:30,320
And like you said, you know,
personal life is complicated
1495
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:32,560
enough.
It's so hard to get through
1496
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,400
day-to-day and live your life as
a human being and try to
1497
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:37,840
accomplish something and you
know, and have meaningful
1498
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:39,960
relationships and really do
something with yourself.
1499
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:42,720
It's hard enough to do that
without the entire world
1500
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:47,520
imposing just one in one
catastrophe after the next, just
1501
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:49,320
lining up and bombarding you
with it all the time.
1502
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:52,520
So I commend you for for, for,
for not playing that game and
1503
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:54,480
for rejecting that view.
I think it's really valuable.
1504
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:57,840
Well, I commend you too.
I think it's a really important
1505
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:00,320
thing.
The the reasons, the the biggest
1506
01:14:00,320 --> 01:14:02,680
driver of human behaviour is how
people feel.
1507
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:06,200
If people feel less fear, less
anger, they're likely to behave
1508
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:07,760
a lot better.
They're likely to be able to.
1509
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:11,360
They react to things a lot
better for one and, and, and be
1510
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:14,360
proactive in, in more ways.
It can be hard, quite hard to be
1511
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:17,360
proactive in your own life when
you're bombarded by fear because
1512
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:20,160
it is paralyzing.
It does keep keep you in the
1513
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:22,200
same place.
And it can be hard to confront
1514
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:24,880
or sometimes some people
impossible to confront, at least
1515
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:26,280
for a time.
You know, these things
1516
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,640
overcoming and and recovering
from these things can take a lot
1517
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:32,120
of time.
Just personally speaking and
1518
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:35,360
just, I know, I know a lot of
people who suffered from various
1519
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:38,120
things and have a lot of trauma
in their lives and they're sick
1520
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:39,480
to death of all of this stuff
too.
1521
01:14:39,480 --> 01:14:42,160
And they often just switch off
because it's like, I don't, I
1522
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:44,120
don't need any more fear and
anger in my life today.
1523
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:45,800
I don't need to be paranoid and
neurotic.
1524
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:47,960
I'm already paranoid and
neurotic enough to be honest.
1525
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:55,560
Everyone I know that watches too
much news is already already has
1526
01:14:55,560 --> 01:14:58,800
enough anxiety and, and, and
fear in their lives to, to, to,
1527
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:01,920
to be able to cut that out and
still be and still have a have
1528
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:06,360
plenty to work on, you know?
And so you're right, a lot, a
1529
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:09,520
lot of people do go for what's
familiar because it seems to be
1530
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:12,800
comfortable.
And we are simultaneously
1531
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:15,720
creatures of habit.
And so we like the familiar and
1532
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:18,680
we like the things that we know
and that we think we can rely on
1533
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:21,520
and feel we can rely on.
But we are also creatures of
1534
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:24,360
imagination.
And imagination can be
1535
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:28,520
pessimistic or optimistic.
You can catastrophize and
1536
01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:31,360
imagine the worst case scenarios
and that can hold you back.
1537
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:33,880
Or you can try and be
optimistic, try, try and be
1538
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:36,320
loving and optimistic towards
yourself, towards others,
1539
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:39,760
towards the future and think
things can get better because
1540
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:44,120
they can using every single time
I've I've hit the emotional rock
1541
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:46,760
bottom in my life, things have
got better afterwards.
1542
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:49,160
And I keep trying to remind
myself of that, that yeah, life
1543
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:53,000
can be really horrible at times,
but it can also be fantastic at
1544
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:55,200
times.
And that you can overcome these
1545
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:57,640
things and you can keep going
and you can get better.
1546
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:02,640
And I say, maybe we need to
somehow weaponize the optimistic
1547
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:06,160
imagination against the
pessimistic imagination, or at
1548
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:08,960
least at least instrumentalize
it against that.
1549
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:13,320
And that's, that will, that will
get us somewhere that will
1550
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:16,040
improve us, that will lead to
better societies and better
1551
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:19,400
individuals and just a more kind
of compassionate and
1552
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:23,080
understanding and mutually
accepting of differences and and
1553
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:24,720
so on and so on.
All the things that a lot of
1554
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:26,800
people actually want from
society, or at least would feel
1555
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:29,440
a hell of a lot better if that's
what our our human civilization
1556
01:16:29,440 --> 01:16:32,280
was more like.
I think that's possible.
1557
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:33,960
And it's not just I think it's
possible.
1558
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:36,160
I know it's possible.
I know it from my own life and I
1559
01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:37,440
know it from the lives of
others.
1560
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:39,240
Yeah, yeah.
And that's the goal of this
1561
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:41,040
podcast.
I mean, the goal of this podcast
1562
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:44,160
is to be that hopeful
alternative and to say, yeah, I
1563
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:48,800
try that whatever, whatever,
whatever rabbit hole I go down,
1564
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,600
there's, there's almost always
something positive that could be
1565
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:55,680
done about it or something not
even necessarily positive, but
1566
01:16:55,680 --> 01:17:00,120
some some form of autonomy where
you could take your own response
1567
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:02,440
and your own reaction into your
own hands and do something about
1568
01:17:02,440 --> 01:17:07,720
it in a way that is not
necessarily what is prescribed
1569
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:09,840
to, you know, for you.
And I think that's really,
1570
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:13,680
really valuable.
And we can try and overcome
1571
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:15,920
conditioning.
We can't always do it.
1572
01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:19,040
But there is more to human
behaviour than just the BF
1573
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:20,760
Skinner conditioning and
response.
1574
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:23,320
That's not all we are.
We aren't just input output
1575
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:25,320
machines.
We can have, we can do something
1576
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:27,320
about that.
We can interrupt those
1577
01:17:28,480 --> 01:17:31,760
conditioned, enculturated,
impulsive responses to things,
1578
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:34,720
even if they're things that were
driven into us as children.
1579
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:38,000
Some people can overcome those.
I think everyone can overcome
1580
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:41,480
them at least a bit.
And, and, and not feel quite so
1581
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:44,800
enslaved and not actually be
quite so enslaved to these
1582
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:48,480
conditioned responses to things
and to that mentality of
1583
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:52,360
pessimism and catastrophizing
and falling down the emotional
1584
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:54,240
wells.
You know, the spirals that I was
1585
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:57,400
talking about before, they're
just as much individual
1586
01:17:57,400 --> 01:18:00,320
psychological, emotional spirals
as they are on mass.
1587
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:03,360
On the scale of a country of
three, 400 million people like
1588
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:06,040
you live in, it's the same
thing.
1589
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:07,960
It's all the same feelings,
ultimately.
1590
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:12,800
So we have to recognize that and
we have to try and do something
1591
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:15,080
about it.
And it isn't always possible,
1592
01:18:15,440 --> 01:18:19,680
but it is often possible.
Yeah, yeah, beautiful.
1593
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:23,680
I want to, I want to, I want to
actually end with the last, you
1594
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:26,000
know, 10-12 minutes that we got
if that's OK.
1595
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:28,920
I want to act.
I want to talk to you a little
1596
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:33,840
bit about the separation of
power and influence that you
1597
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:38,640
think because I we know and, and
this is not with how just with
1598
01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:42,040
Hollywood, this is with anything
that is regulated.
1599
01:18:42,440 --> 01:18:46,240
It feels like has a revolving
door with industry insiders and
1600
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:49,160
the regulators.
And I, you know, and like you
1601
01:18:49,160 --> 01:18:52,080
mentioned, you know, before we,
we mentioned our buddy Rich, was
1602
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:53,680
it Rich Klein?
Is that who that his name?
1603
01:18:55,000 --> 01:19:02,200
You know, he seems to be one of
these type of examples, but do
1604
01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:05,840
you think the government, how
much of A distinction do you
1605
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:08,920
think that there should be, for
example, Right.
1606
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:11,160
And I know that this and I'm
sure this does happen because I
1607
01:19:11,160 --> 01:19:15,160
saw this on the site films that
go ahead without CIA approval or
1608
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:17,440
without government approval.
They want you to change this and
1609
01:19:17,440 --> 01:19:18,960
they push back on a script about
this.
1610
01:19:19,480 --> 01:19:22,120
How much control do you think?
Do you think they should say,
1611
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:24,320
hey, we'd like for you to do
this, but do whatever you want
1612
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:26,480
or it's important that you do
this because of it.
1613
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:28,600
It it affects XY and Z
situation.
1614
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:31,760
Do you think that there should
be some kind of relationship or
1615
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:33,120
you think it should be
completely fractured?
1616
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:37,960
I mean, ultimately I'm
anarchist, so I don't think the
1617
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:40,280
federal government or any kind
of government should exist.
1618
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:45,920
But within the existing
superstructure and paradigm, I
1619
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:49,160
think it I think that the
relationship is, it's fine to
1620
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:51,880
have some kind of access
relationship to these assets,
1621
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:53,880
but they are publicly paid for
assets.
1622
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:57,000
So why should these agencies be
allowed to deny them to film
1623
01:19:57,000 --> 01:19:59,360
makers?
Because that's the real power
1624
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:01,520
that they have.
Sometimes films on TV shows
1625
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:04,120
don't even get made because not
because the government
1626
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,040
necessarily censors and blocks
them, though that does happen,
1627
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:09,680
but just because they deny them
access to something.
1628
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:13,800
If you, you can't make a.
Had a note a drama set on a
1629
01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:16,680
aircraft carrier without access
to an aircraft carrier.
1630
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:18,840
I mean technically I suppose you
can try and do the whole thing
1631
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:22,240
with CGI, but it looks schlocky
and digitized and sooner or
1632
01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:24,560
later people will notice and
lose interest because it looks
1633
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:26,640
like everything else.
The real thing always looks a
1634
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:29,440
bit better.
So if you can't get access to
1635
01:20:29,440 --> 01:20:32,400
that aircraft carrier, you can't
make your film or TV show set on
1636
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:34,960
it.
It's that thing.
1637
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:38,000
It's that they have the power of
denial and the power of softer
1638
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:41,160
or harder censorship, depending
on exactly which project and
1639
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:43,520
what relationship they have with
the film makers and so on and so
1640
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:45,160
on.
It isn't always a uniform
1641
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:48,680
process on every single project
they work on, but it is that
1642
01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:51,280
power of denial, that power of
refusing access.
1643
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:54,920
Why shouldn't film makers who
pay their taxes and all the rest
1644
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:56,840
of it, be able to access these
things?
1645
01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:59,320
All they're saying is we want to
go and shoot a couple of scenes
1646
01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:02,960
outside CIA headquarters or FBI
headquarters or whatever it
1647
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:05,040
might be.
Why should those agencies be
1648
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:06,800
allowed to turn them down
because they don't like their
1649
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,360
content?
That is actually a denial of
1650
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:12,360
critical speech or free speech
against the government in some
1651
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:14,680
ways.
That was if you call that a
1652
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:18,680
first, that would be that would
be like a free speech that that
1653
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:21,800
that you're prohibiting free
speech at that point is your, is
1654
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:25,240
your, is your take on that.
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I agree with
1655
01:21:25,480 --> 01:21:28,320
the, I'm not a constitutional
law expert, of course, but I
1656
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:31,480
agree with some of the people
who, who are, who've said they
1657
01:21:31,480 --> 01:21:33,840
consider this a violation of the
1st Amendment.
1658
01:21:34,160 --> 01:21:37,880
And so why, why should film
makers have their have their
1659
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:41,120
rights violated in that way?
Why should audiences have their
1660
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:44,320
rights to be able to hear this
kind of thing or see this kind
1661
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:46,880
of perspective on a screen or
however they're consuming it?
1662
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:51,240
Why should they be denied that,
especially when the number one
1663
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:53,800
reason why things get rejected
and denied is that they're
1664
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:55,840
critical of the government in
some fashion.
1665
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:58,440
It's not necessarily they're
critical of an individual
1666
01:21:58,440 --> 01:21:59,680
president or something like
that.
1667
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:02,640
It's, it's the government in
general, it's the institutions
1668
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:04,760
themselves.
That's what they're really
1669
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:07,200
protecting.
And I think that's wrong.
1670
01:22:07,760 --> 01:22:10,440
I, I think it's deeply wrong.
So if you are going to have this
1671
01:22:10,440 --> 01:22:14,400
sort of relationship, it has to
be 1 where you can't reject a
1672
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:17,080
request due to content.
You might be able to reject a
1673
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:19,360
request because someone comes to
you and says I want, you know,
1674
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:24,320
115M1 Abrams tanks and you just
don't have a spare 115 tanks on
1675
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:26,240
that day.
I get that sometimes
1676
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:29,480
administratively people are do
get a bit carried away and ask
1677
01:22:29,480 --> 01:22:33,040
for the impossible, but if
they're asking for something
1678
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:35,440
that loads of other film makers
have had access to but you just
1679
01:22:35,440 --> 01:22:37,920
don't like their script, I don't
think that's a justifiable
1680
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:41,080
reason to deny them at all.
And so it's either access for
1681
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:43,120
everyone or or access for no
one.
1682
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,200
Yeah, yeah, that's a great
point.
1683
01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:49,280
I couldn't believe I just
watched Homeland for the first
1684
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:52,760
time this year and I could not
believe that that that show was
1685
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:58,040
able to get made even.
I mean, and, and, and, and, and
1686
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:01,720
according to your site, it
looked like it got a lot of
1687
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:05,920
green lights from various
government bodies, including the
1688
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:08,640
CIA.
But that movie does not that
1689
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:12,040
show rather does not make the
American government or American
1690
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:16,240
history look very good at all.
And I am shocked with how far
1691
01:23:16,240 --> 01:23:20,440
they're willing to go as far as,
you know, this, these deep CIA
1692
01:23:20,440 --> 01:23:23,840
agents or the CIA going row
against the president or, or
1693
01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:28,360
even this the drone campaign and
everything that I didn't know
1694
01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:31,400
any history about that.
Even my, my, my parents who I
1695
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:34,040
told them to watch the show,
they didn't know anything about
1696
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:36,160
that either.
And it kind of highlights a
1697
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:38,760
really not great period of
American history that I'm
1698
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:41,600
shocked that the agencies kind
of let the show, the showrunners
1699
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:44,040
get away with for eight seasons
or however long it was.
1700
01:23:45,480 --> 01:23:49,040
If if this was the US military,
they wouldn't have. the US
1701
01:23:49,040 --> 01:23:52,960
military is obsessed with
positive image imagery of itself
1702
01:23:53,480 --> 01:23:55,880
the CIA seems to actually quite
enjoy.
1703
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:59,000
I think it's partly because the
CIA is sort of half stocked with
1704
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:01,560
statistic psychopaths.
More.
1705
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:03,320
More than half.
More than half, yeah.
1706
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:08,960
Maybe more than maybe more, but
they they seem to they seem to
1707
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:12,720
enjoy this dark image of the
CIA, this torturing, drone
1708
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:16,960
striking, murderous, completely
corrupt, win at all costs means
1709
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:20,480
to an end kind of approach to
the CIA because it scares
1710
01:24:20,480 --> 01:24:23,800
people, it intimidates people.
It means that people don't want
1711
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:26,040
to fuck with the CIA.
It mean, it might even mean that
1712
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:28,640
the, the Russians or the Chinese
or whoever else might be
1713
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:31,280
watching this overseas and
thinking actually, if, if the
1714
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:34,680
CIA is kind of openly admitting
on a, a popular network TV show
1715
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:37,960
that they do this stuff, maybe
we shouldn't mess with them
1716
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:40,080
quite as much as we were
thinking of messing with them.
1717
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:43,160
There is a, it's, it's like I
was saying about positive
1718
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:45,480
reinforcement versus negative
reinforcement.
1719
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:48,800
The the shows like, I don't
know, Jack Ryan, Amazon's Jack
1720
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:51,760
Ryan that offers generally
speaking, a very positive
1721
01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:54,120
reinforcement of the CI as
image.
1722
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:58,960
Homeland in some ways is much
more negative in in a lot of
1723
01:24:58,960 --> 01:25:00,880
places.
I think it's a fantastic piece
1724
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:02,720
of television in most of its
seasons.
1725
01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:05,360
Some of them some of them aren't
so good as others, but some of
1726
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:06,600
them are absolutely great.
TVI.
1727
01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:08,880
Mean it flips the whole war of
terror on its head.
1728
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:11,920
It's, it's, it's really the
whole Middle Eastern war.
1729
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:15,680
At least it flips on its head.
And it really, it really brings
1730
01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:17,120
up a lot.
And it's funny because around,
1731
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:19,440
because just a couple months
earlier, I was really doing a
1732
01:25:19,440 --> 01:25:23,040
lot of homework and finding out
what our, you know, how America
1733
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:25,640
kind of caused a lot of the War
on Terror to ourselves.
1734
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:29,320
And this brought that all to
light.
1735
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:31,840
And I'm like, but if you're
doing this, Americans aren't
1736
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:34,040
going to trust or people
watching this aren't going to
1737
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:37,120
trust agendas anymore.
And I understand what you're
1738
01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:41,040
saying about the about trying
to, you know, flex perhaps, or
1739
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:44,440
to show almost like almost in a
psychopathic way.
1740
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:47,760
Hey, we're not even apologizing
the way that we do things and
1741
01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:50,680
you better watch out.
But that's not a really good way
1742
01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:53,680
to make friends and at a time.
And and and this is obviously we
1743
01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:55,640
could we can't start this with 5
minutes left.
1744
01:25:55,640 --> 01:26:00,240
But as China with a with a
massive economic and social and
1745
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:03,360
political is becoming a huge
force.
1746
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:05,000
It's over.
It's absolutely overtaking
1747
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:10,320
American majority of the world.
I don't think that it's really
1748
01:26:10,320 --> 01:26:12,080
beneficial to make ourselves
look like a bunch of
1749
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:17,800
psychopaths, you know?
You, you, you wouldn't because
1750
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:22,920
you're not psychopathic.
But I do wonder it is a bit like
1751
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:25,240
the the psychopathic serial
killer who when they're
1752
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:29,200
eventually caught, just
confesses or other other
1753
01:26:29,200 --> 01:26:31,360
psychopathic predators.
When they're caught, quite a lot
1754
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:34,200
of them confess because one,
they don't really give a shit.
1755
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:37,240
They're just cold blooded and
they don't actually care that
1756
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:39,640
much what happens to them.
But also some of them like to
1757
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:40,880
boast.
Some of them have that
1758
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:43,840
narcissistic quality of like,
yeah, I killed 17 people and
1759
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:45,680
it's taken you 20 years to catch
me.
1760
01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:48,640
They actually want to boast
about what what it is that
1761
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:50,520
they've done.
So there may be an element of
1762
01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:53,000
that in some of the CI as
Hollywood PR.
1763
01:26:53,440 --> 01:26:56,760
And I do think intimidation
propaganda is a real thing.
1764
01:26:56,880 --> 01:26:58,840
They want us to be scared of
them.
1765
01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:02,880
If you look at something like
The Good Shepherd, which is this
1766
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:06,280
quite conspiratorial CIA
sponsored film where it suggests
1767
01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:09,800
that a lot of the CIA originates
in the Skull and Bones Yale
1768
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:13,640
secret society or semi semi
secret fratity, whatever you
1769
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:17,040
want to call it.
Sorry, excuse me.
1770
01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:19,120
A very a very much plays up to
that.
1771
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:22,040
I don't know mythology.
How about that myth about the
1772
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:22,960
CIA?
Is it a myth?
1773
01:27:22,960 --> 01:27:24,720
Is it a reality?
People couldn't again, make
1774
01:27:24,720 --> 01:27:27,440
their own judgments on that.
But there is quite a lot of dark
1775
01:27:27,440 --> 01:27:30,800
stuff in CIA sponsored films
that when I'm watching it, I'm
1776
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:33,560
thinking there's no way the
military or the FBI would put up
1777
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:35,280
with this.
They would only want they would
1778
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:38,120
want a much more positive image
and maybe a tiny, tiny little
1779
01:27:38,120 --> 01:27:41,640
bit of, you know, one guy goes
rogue and does something wrong.
1780
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:43,840
They can tolerate that.
But the notion of the whole
1781
01:27:43,840 --> 01:27:46,280
institution is somehow corrupt
or terrifying.
1782
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:49,000
They won't do.
They just won't, won't accept
1783
01:27:49,400 --> 01:27:51,920
the CIA.
On the other hand, they seem to
1784
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:57,800
see the benefit of both the more
happy, positive PR, the happy
1785
01:27:57,800 --> 01:28:01,400
positive image of the CIA, and
the negative, scary, terrifying
1786
01:28:01,480 --> 01:28:03,800
image of the CIA.
They actually seem to see value
1787
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:07,680
in both, which makes you wonder
what the hell they they're
1788
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:10,000
really up to.
And also what the hell is it
1789
01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:12,000
that they do that we don't
already know about?
1790
01:28:12,160 --> 01:28:13,680
Because that's the thing.
It's like once you're caught
1791
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:16,680
drone bombing and torturing and
all the rest of it, what what
1792
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:18,480
option do you have?
Do you then try and put the
1793
01:28:18,480 --> 01:28:20,920
genie back in the bottle and
convince people actually, we're,
1794
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:23,520
we're good, We didn't actually
do this, this sort of thing that
1795
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:25,680
much?
Or do you try to normalize it?
1796
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:27,720
Do you try to make people accept
it?
1797
01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:30,960
And I think Homeland from a
propaganda point of view, is a
1798
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:34,480
massive normalization project.
It made people, you know, it
1799
01:28:34,480 --> 01:28:36,880
makes people more cynical, makes
people just go, oh, well, this
1800
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:39,080
is this is what happens.
There's nothing we can do about
1801
01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:40,640
it.
This is just the CIA is too
1802
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:43,080
powerful and too evil and too
terrifying.
1803
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:46,760
And so it's kind of exciting to
watch in a spy drama, but in
1804
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:49,040
terms of the real world, I'm not
going to challenge this because
1805
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:51,600
then they might drone bomb or
hack me or torture me or, or
1806
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:54,600
something else.
So it does scare people.
1807
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:57,360
Again, the negative images do
scare people.
1808
01:28:57,360 --> 01:29:00,240
And that that is the only
rationale I can offer for why
1809
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:04,240
the CIA gets involved in films
and TV shows that don't in any
1810
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:07,720
way really portray them, but not
very much portray them very
1811
01:29:07,720 --> 01:29:10,360
positively.
I got you, I got you.
1812
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:13,040
I think that's a perfect place
to leave it, Tom.
1813
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:18,240
This was a ton of fun.
You're such a pleasant, such a
1814
01:29:18,240 --> 01:29:20,320
pleasant person to talk to.
Thank you so much for the time.
1815
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:23,160
I hope we can maybe do this
again because I have AI have a
1816
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:26,040
whole list of notes over here
that we didn't get a bunch of
1817
01:29:26,040 --> 01:29:29,120
it, but but I hope we could do
this again in a couple of months
1818
01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:31,840
maybe.
Thank you so much for your time.
1819
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:36,360
This is so much fun and I'm
going to post your whatever you
1820
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:39,040
would like for me to share as
far as your website and your
1821
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:40,720
socials.
You don't have social or you
1822
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:43,160
don't use it very often, but
your website and your contact
1823
01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:46,800
and I'll be happy to and I and I
would love to talk again and be
1824
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:48,560
in touch.
Oh, sure.
1825
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:50,720
I mean, you've got my e-mail.
Let's do this again sometime.
1826
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:52,160
And it's been great talking to
you.
1827
01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:54,840
I really enjoyed this.
I think we've looked at this
1828
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:57,480
from a a different perspective
than a lot of the interviews and
1829
01:29:57,480 --> 01:29:59,160
things that I've done.
So yeah, let's have another
1830
01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:01,320
conversation sometime.
I'd love it.
1831
01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:03,680
Awesome.
OK, well, feel good again.
1832
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:06,720
Cheers to your health, good
health to both of us and lots of
1833
01:30:06,720 --> 01:30:09,080
lots of lots of good work
together, hopefully in the
1834
01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:10,520
future.
Thank you so much, Tom.
1835
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:12,200
Take care man.
Take care, yes?
1836
01:30:12,480 --> 01:30:12,680
Bye.
00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,000
Welcome to another episode of
come together,
2
00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,040
Tom Sucker.
Welcome.
3
00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,760
I'm so happy to have you here.
The creator of spy culture, an
4
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:22,080
awesome website.
How are you I'm.
5
00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:24,240
Great.
Thanks.
6
00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:26,000
Thanks for having me.
It's good to be talking to you.
7
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,600
Yes, yes, I'm really excited to
be talking.
8
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:34,080
I, I came, I came across your
work by accident, but but once I
9
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,680
saw it, my, my eyes lit up and,
and I caught fire because this
10
00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,920
was because it's some of the
coolest work and contrary
11
00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:44,880
actually to what I want to
hopefully, you know, open our
12
00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,800
conversation about contrary to
lots of other work, your work is
13
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,440
meticulously sourced and really,
really well detailed.
14
00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,360
And it's, it's, it's tons of fun
to just go through and you can
15
00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,120
learn so much just from, you
know, just your timeline is
16
00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,680
incredible.
Oh, the CIA Hollywood timeline.
17
00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,000
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
18
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,320
That's incredible.
That's really amazing.
19
00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:08,320
Thanks.
Thanks.
20
00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,320
That took a lot of lot of time.
Well, I mean, it's years and
21
00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:13,440
years of research that
ultimately went into that.
22
00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,360
But even just putting it
together took days, weeks, I
23
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,280
can't remember a couple of weeks
maybe.
24
00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,600
So yeah, that was a bit of a
labor of love, that one.
25
00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,360
I always wanted to take pretty
much everything I had, or at
26
00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,320
least the essence of everything
I had on the CIA and Hollywood
27
00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:29,880
and put it together all in one
place for people.
28
00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,440
So yeah, yeah, any anyone who's
listening, go look at the CIA
29
00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,160
and Hollywood timeline.
It's a it's a lot of, lot of
30
00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,560
work.
It's spyculture.com.
31
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:39,720
Yeah.
And it's, it's again,
32
00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,080
meticulously done, super well
sourced.
33
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,000
I was just reading through it
before you hopped on.
34
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,840
I was reading about the CIA
document that you posted about
35
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,200
their mishandling of Zero Dark
30 and, and our and, you know,
36
00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,440
and, and basically all
regulations as far as far as,
37
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:56,960
you know, the way that the
government supposed to relate to
38
00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,560
Hollywood.
But we're going to, I'm sure
39
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,520
we're going to talk, we're going
to dive into a lot of these type
40
00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,040
of topics.
The I, I, I, I wanted to
41
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:06,840
actually begin, if you don't
mind.
42
00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,199
I saw what it must have been a
relatively new post because I
43
00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:11,640
missed it the first time I went
through.
44
00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,600
Was your post about the weird
scenes inside Laurel Canyon
45
00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:19,440
book.
Yeah, I, it's funny because I
46
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,400
didn't talk about this book for
months, but it happened to be
47
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,920
that the podcast that I recorded
that mentioned it, the author
48
00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:28,600
was what asked me to hold off a
couple of months to publish it
49
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,400
until his newest book came out.
So I just released it the other
50
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,040
day and I happened to talk about
this book then too.
51
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,200
But I read the book and I was
really excited to get my hands
52
00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,040
on it.
And I and I heard about it being
53
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,960
talked about in a couple of
podcasts and I picked it up and
54
00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,400
I start going through it and I,
and, you know, red lights just
55
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,720
started going off my head and
alarm bells started ringing.
56
00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,800
I said, this feels just not
great.
57
00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,880
And then and then I and then,
and then I read and then I got
58
00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,440
up to parts that I really didn't
know about, you know, like for
59
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,160
example, the Grateful Dead and,
and, and Pig Pen's relationship
60
00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,640
with Janis Joplin and yeah, and,
and, and, and her, you know, her
61
00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:11,320
mysterious death and not really
mysterious was an overdose.
62
00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,040
Everything was just, everything
felt like it was being shoved
63
00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:20,560
needlessly into conspiracy and
it felt like it didn't have to
64
00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,200
be like there's plenty of great,
there's plenty of crazy stories
65
00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,800
out there that we don't have to
necessarily.
66
00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:32,080
We don't have to fictionalize
everything or, or I guess what's
67
00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,600
the word for it when you we
conspiracize everything.
68
00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:37,840
Well, I mean, that's what the
book does.
69
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,920
It tries to take all these
disparate stories about
70
00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,680
relatively disparate people.
I mean, there's some
71
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,480
interconnections at at various
points, but it turns it into
72
00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,720
this grand overarching
conspiracy theory about pretty
73
00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,360
much everything that was going
on at that time, culturally
74
00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,880
speaking.
And also it it, it amalgamates
75
00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,920
so many different things.
There's this the whole thing
76
00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:03,000
about the the Lookout Mountain
Observatory or Lookout Mountain
77
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,240
Laboratory, which is in
Mcgowan's book, is supposedly
78
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,840
the sort of top secret military
facility that's somewhere in
79
00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,200
Laurel Canyon.
But he doesn't really seem to
80
00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,640
know that much about it.
And it's almost like the absence
81
00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,959
of information is a cause to be
suspicious, right?
82
00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:22,920
And and he claims it was somehow
at the center of this CIA
83
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,240
military intelligence, create
the hippie movement, influence
84
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,920
the hippie movement, overarching
conspiracy theory that kind of
85
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,280
runs through the whole book or
most of the book anyway.
86
00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,400
But he doesn't cite any evidence
for that.
87
00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,040
He doesn't cite any connection
between any of these musicians
88
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,560
and film stars and so on, these
hippies that lived in Laurel
89
00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,880
Canyon and the actual Lookout
Mountain Laboratory.
90
00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:47,560
And as far as I can tell, there
basically is no connection
91
00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,960
except they happen to live in
the same or exist in the same
92
00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,960
geographical area at the same
time.
93
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,640
It's sort of, there's a lot,
there's a lot of conspiracy by
94
00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,800
association in the book, and
there's a lot of conspiracy by
95
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,360
geographic location in the book
because these people lived
96
00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:02,760
around the corner from these
people.
97
00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,800
They therefore must have been
connected in some profound way.
98
00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,080
But were they or did they just
know each other?
99
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,040
Did they sometimes go to parties
with each other?
100
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,160
Did they occasionally record an
album or a song together?
101
00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:14,640
I mean, that doesn't prove a
conspiracy.
102
00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:19,160
It's just what people do, right?
Yeah, and it's just as easily
103
00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,600
likely as it is unlikely.
I mean, you know, I mean, I have
104
00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,960
so many friends that and and I
think about this quite a bit.
105
00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,080
Oh man, with with the whole
Jeffrey Epstein story where I
106
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,200
think how many people are on
this quote UN quote list or how
107
00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,160
many people associated with him
really just really like just
108
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,760
knew him on a superficial level
that are now just getting
109
00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,840
bundled up with him.
And you know, I'm just there,
110
00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:39,840
there are plenty of people, I'm
sure that had a lot of
111
00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:43,680
wrongdoing, but there's a lot of
people that I mean, I think I
112
00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,520
could think about so many people
in my life that I've had
113
00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,040
positive associations with that
I haven't kept up with that.
114
00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,200
I've had a year of friendship
with a couple of month
115
00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:52,680
relationship with and then
disappeared.
116
00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:53,920
And I haven't heard from them in
10 years.
117
00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,520
And I find out that there one
day, you know, some kind of
118
00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,920
terrible sex offender and I've
been really, you know, and, and
119
00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:01,800
I and I said I had a
relationship with them ten years
120
00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,640
ago where I knew them for a
couple of months or for a year
121
00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,640
or two.
Guilt by association.
122
00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,160
Like it could be, but it could
just as equally not be.
123
00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:11,520
Absolutely.
I've.
124
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,720
I've known some people in my
life who I was even friends with
125
00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,120
for quite long periods of time
who turned out to be doing
126
00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:23,080
horrible things.
Doesn't make me responsible for
127
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,400
that.
It doesn't mean that I I'm in
128
00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,240
any way guilty or I'm in any way
responsible or liable for what
129
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,000
they did.
And I know what you mean about
130
00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,440
the Epstein thing, because it
still isn't clear exactly to
131
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:41,640
what extent Maxwell and Epstein
were entrapping people or
132
00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,480
providing these, I don't want to
call them services, but we're
133
00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,960
providing essentially underage
sex slaves or trafficked.
134
00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,640
Yeah, yeah.
Teenage girls and what have you.
135
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,600
We don't actually know the
extent to which that was
136
00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:55,760
happening.
It seems it must have been
137
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,800
happening to some degree.
But then people leap in and say,
138
00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,160
oh, because this person is on a
flight log, they were once on
139
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,840
this plane or they flew on this
plane 6 times, right?
140
00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,080
And that means they flew on a
plane.
141
00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:08,760
That doesn't mean they
necessarily knew everything
142
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,640
Epstein was up to, let alone
we're participating in it.
143
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,720
Some of them we have to assume
were, but we don't know which
144
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,440
ones.
And until people actually
145
00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,520
outline some solid evidence of
this being more than just an
146
00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,360
association with Epstein, I'm
not really sure where we go with
147
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,120
it.
And that is a real problem,
148
00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,480
because I do think something
very serious and very dark and
149
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,360
very sick and twisted and psycho
stalker creepy pervert
150
00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,280
paedophile thing happened there.
But I don't know exactly who was
151
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,400
and wasn't involved.
I certainly don't believe
152
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,360
Epstein killed himself.
I'll, I'll say that much.
153
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,600
I can't.
I can't imagine it.
154
00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,120
It's possible, but I can't
imagine it.
155
00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,320
Have a lot of time with it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
156
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But, you know, and I think
you're right.
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And I and I and I think that end
of the day, there has been so
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much good work done and there is
so much information available.
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If you want to do your homework
and if you want to make it
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happen, excuse me, phone drops.
If you want to make it happen,
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00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,360
you can do it, you know, and so
that's that's kind of what
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00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,600
bothers me about a lazy
conspiracies or and I'm not
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00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,000
going to call weird things that
inside of Canyon a lazy
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conspiracy per SE, because the
author obviously put a lot of
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effort into actually writing the
book and getting information
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that he did.
But it feels like he stopped a
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step short of what he could
have.
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00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,760
And I think that we, you know,
it's it becomes a dangerous
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game, you know, because like,
like you said, it just becomes
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association and that doesn't
necessarily mean anything.
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So I think I think it's I think
it's a good point.
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I think it's really interesting.
I mean, the biggest problem I
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have with that book, which I
outlined in the podcast episode
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that I did, reviewing it and
honestly tearing into it in
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places, people, people don't
have to agree with my opinions
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in that one.
But I would actually ask that
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you at least go and have a read
or a listen to it and consider
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have I been a little bit
suckered maybe by some some of
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the things that people have said
here?
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Or have I maybe been a little
bit lazy in my own thinking and
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taking some things too seriously
or just taking them for granted.
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The biggest problem for me is
that at no point does McGowan
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mention any of the actual
cultural warfare operations that
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we know were going on at that
time, including it, including in
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Los Angeles, let alone the CI as
infiltration of the hippie
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movement, the anti Vietnam War
movement, Operation Kale.
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00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,160
If you want to look up Operation
Chaos, it was this CIA
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infiltration and spying
operation looking at the the
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00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,200
radical left, the hippie
movement, the anti war movement,
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all of that and infiltrating,
getting in there some ways and
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00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,160
presumably trying to sabotage
and disrupt in some fashion.
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And you would think that's
directly connected to most of
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what only some of what Mcgowan's
talking about.
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00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:45,760
And yet it isn't mentioned
anywhere in the book.
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And so I'm wondering if you want
to you really want to flesh out
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00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,040
this theory that he's espousing.
That's just an obvious place to
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me to look is to associate it
with this, to situate it in that
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context of what is definite and
already known, rather than this
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00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:04,600
relatively loosely affiliated
and awfully often loosely
200
00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,680
defined conspiracy theory that
he he does espouse.
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00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,320
Yeah, yeah.
And it's funny because I feel
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like it's, it's hard to even do
that much homework and collect
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information that he did without
coming across that.
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00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:19,520
I mean, I'm a casual reader and
I've, you know, and I've come
205
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,080
across way more than what?
Than what at least.
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00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:23,320
Listen, I didn't finish the
book.
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00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,880
I got about, you know, just
about a little bit less than
208
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,080
halfway through and just said,
I, I, I don't have the patience
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00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,720
to keep on going with this.
And and I really try to push
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00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,080
through and I really do.
But I was like, I have so many
211
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books I want to read and this is
really isn't giving me too much
212
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:40,800
to work.
It's not even giving me homework
213
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,400
to do so.
So I had to put it aside for
214
00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,760
now.
But I'm happy that that you I'm
215
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:47,760
happy that you have a similar
perspective with me.
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00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,320
And then, at least to me that
when it comes to this book,
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00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,400
because I love that point in
history.
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00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:54,960
I love that music.
I love that time.
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00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,320
I'm fascinated by it.
The book Chaos by Tom O'Neill.
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00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,800
I don't know if you read it, I I
thought was a remarkable work
221
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,720
that really brings a sheds a lot
more light onto this into this
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00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,440
world without really making he
he he provides so much
223
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,160
information without me.
He does the opposite of of what
224
00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:17,800
McGregor does.
He he, he provides all the
225
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,240
information without coming to
any definitive conclusions and
226
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,240
says there's too many
interplaying factors over here
227
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:24,720
for me to say for sure what it
is.
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00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,800
And in too much evidence has
been destroyed and too many
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00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,880
people are dead now for me to be
able to really make a decision.
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00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,160
But there was some weird stuff
going on, you know, and here's
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00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,720
the record of the weird stuff.
And here's Jolly West and here's
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00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,480
and here's the introduction of
amphetamines in San Francisco.
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And here's that, you know,
here's Manson with, you know,
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00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,240
meeting with, with Jolly WX
amount of times.
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00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,800
And like, what does it mean?
I don't know, but here's the
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00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,480
data, here's the hard facts.
Do with that as you will, I
237
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think that's that.
That's a much more preferable
238
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,600
way of going about it.
Well, and just for what it's
239
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,000
worth, I do think there was some
a lot of weird shit going on in
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00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,720
the San Francisco part of the
with with Tim Leary and all of
241
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,280
that kind of thing.
There is definitely something to
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00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,560
that and if people want to give.
Me about Tim Leary's
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00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:12,680
relationship, if you don't mind,
because I, I, I know the name
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00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:14,600
for sure.
And he's a counterculture hero.
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00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,440
He's a beat, I think, right?
Or the end of the pre hippie
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around that time.
Yeah.
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00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,880
Yeah.
But I never heard about his
248
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relationship with any kind of
government association.
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00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:26,520
Do you?
Do you, do you know off the top
250
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,160
of your head, you know, any more
detail than that?
251
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,800
Well, certainly he had some
involvement with the CIA.
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00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,480
That's fairly well established.
He was being, I'm pretty sure,
253
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being spied on by the FBI
simultaneously.
254
00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,680
And there is this whole thing
about the CIA running
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experiments, including in San
Francisco with, with acid, with
256
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LSD.
They were sometimes running
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00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,720
essentially brothels where they
would ensnare.
258
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,040
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Where they would ensnare
259
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:56,120
clients, get them to come in,
dose them up with acid and then
260
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film them to see what the hell
happened.
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00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,120
And these are pretty, I mean
that's a pretty messed up
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00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,280
experiment and potentially very
dangerous experiment or series
263
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,440
of experiments operations they
were running.
264
00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:10,360
Exactly where that connects and
overlaps with with Tim Leary,
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00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,280
I'm not 100% sure, but it was
happening at the same time in
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basically the same place, to
some extent the same place.
267
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,800
So therefore we have to assume
there is a connection there.
268
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,920
And yeah, that part of the AP
movement, certainly the more
269
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,480
sort of drug fueled psychedelic
or excessively maybe psychedelic
270
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,480
part of the AP movement I do
think was being infiltrated and
271
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,760
manipulated.
But that's a bit of a different
272
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,400
thing to what was going on in
Southern California around Los
273
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Angeles and Laurel Canyon.
So I'm not sure if those two
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things are actually integrated
in any way.
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00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,000
They, if there were, if there
were operations being run in
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Laurel Canyon and certainly I
think the FBI were spying on
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00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:47,520
some of these people.
We know that much.
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00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:51,760
Are those things connected or
not?
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00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,560
Or in what ways are they
connected?
280
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:55,000
I'm, I'm still not sure about
that.
281
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,360
I have a lot of scepticism about
the hippie movement, despite
282
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,520
being essentially A hippie.
I mean, I wasn't born until the
283
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,520
1980s, but I absorbed a lot of
the hippie philosophies, the
284
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,960
hippie anarchist philosophy
growing up.
285
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:09,480
Nonetheless, I do have a lot of
questions about this movement
286
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,560
and, and it is a disparate
movement.
287
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:16,000
There are it is multifaceted and
to be fair, McGowan does say
288
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,760
this.
He does say isn't just one
289
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,440
amorphous movement or one very
specific movement.
290
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:22,800
There's like different wings of
it.
291
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,200
And he does say that as far as
he's concerned, a lot of this
292
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,160
was about trying to divert
people from the more practical
293
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,400
anti war, anti Vietnam War in
particular side of the movement
294
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and get them more towards to
just take drugs.
295
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,760
You know, TuneIn, drop out free
love.
296
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,160
And I'm not, I'm not actually a
huge fan of that hippie
297
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,640
movement, to be honest.
But some people are.
298
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,160
I mean, people can make their
own judgments on this.
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00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,720
Yeah, I say I'm very happy that
I could look at the hippie
300
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,320
movement in the rearview mirror
because if I was born in that
301
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,760
time, I have a very difficult
time believing I'd have as
302
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,240
balanced as a life of it as I do
now, you know, And I'm living
303
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,160
with more of the echoes and the
ripple effects of that of that
304
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,080
culture.
And I could embrace it in the
305
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,680
way that I feel is appropriately
anachronistic, as you said, as
306
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,000
you, you know, as you're putting
it.
307
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,040
But yeah, I feel that.
I, I, I feel the same way.
308
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,240
And what's what, what I think is
is interesting or curious
309
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,160
perhaps and just completely
speculative is that it seemed
310
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,640
like that, that, that, that
federal agencies.
311
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,720
And there's certainly a paper
trail with this.
312
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,160
And there's another great book,
Blitzed I believe by Norman
313
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:36,760
Orwell, 00 Norman Ohler, German
author, and he has a couple of
314
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,000
great books, but this book
tripped, I'm sorry, tripped is
315
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,120
the book.
And he and he, there's a paper
316
00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,080
trail of LSD from Switzerland to
Nazi Germany, straight to
317
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,240
straight to the state straights,
pretty much straight to San
318
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,520
Francisco.
And, and what's interesting is
319
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,280
that people didn't really know
what LSD was going to do.
320
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,320
And it looks like towards the
late 60s, early 70's, the FBI or
321
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,040
the CIA or whatever government
agencies were experimenting with
322
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,640
the impact of LSD, saw that it
kind of was mushroom into its
323
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,840
own culture.
And they ended up introduce,
324
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,480
introducing amphetamines into
the culture and, you know,
325
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,440
heroin and speed and stuff like
that.
326
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,400
And that ended up causing
enormous decay and 'cause, you
327
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:20,960
know, that was the end of the
summer of love was.
328
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,800
And, you know, I've read
multiple accounts of just, of
329
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,400
just regular everyday people
that were living there that were
330
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,000
great, you know, dead heads or
fans of just, you know, just
331
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,920
real hippies.
And, and they said the, the, the
332
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,480
just over the, over the course
of a couple of months, it just
333
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,000
felt like everyone went from
loving each other and sharing
334
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,600
food and the diggers and, and,
you know, and free love and free
335
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,880
culture and that's art and
sharing to just like a bunch of
336
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,800
zombies in the street.
And they said, we have no idea
337
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,640
what happened.
But but again, the work from
338
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,520
from Tom O'Neill sheds a little
bit of light into, into the,
339
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,040
into the introduction of of
speed and those uppers into,
340
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,280
into the culture that was really
doing really well with the
341
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,720
psychedelics, I think, or for
the most part, you know, with
342
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,640
the psychedelics.
But they are two fundamentally
343
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,960
different.
I mean, metabolically, they're
344
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,079
two fundamentally different
kinds of drugs.
345
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:15,880
I think people want to take
psychedelic drugs.
346
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,359
I mean, I've taken a few in my
time.
347
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,280
And so I do know, I know
personally what this can be like
348
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,119
and what kind of influence it
can have on you.
349
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,440
And it can help open the the
doors of perception if you like.
350
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,280
It can certainly help broaden
your mind, can certainly help
351
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,880
open you up your imagination up
to different possibilities.
352
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:37,000
Whereas cocaine, amphetamines,
those kind of things.
353
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,400
Honestly, I've I've occasionally
tried them and they just don't
354
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,560
work for me at all.
They don't, they don't seem to
355
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,240
fit with my metabolism or my my
mentality.
356
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:50,320
And I can see how on mass this
can help shift a movement and
357
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,400
shift the culture and make it
more about that sort of buzzy
358
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,560
impulsive.
It's got to be now, now, now.
359
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,920
But then you crash because it's
all sort of now, now, now and
360
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,560
then you crash and then you
don't do anything.
361
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,720
Whereas psychedelics is a bit
more medium long term, it's a
362
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,640
bit more slow paced in many
respects.
363
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,240
It's like I say, metabolically
and in terms of biorhythms and
364
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,000
everything, just a fundamentally
different kind of drug
365
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,600
experience and a fundamentally
different kind of culture that
366
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,720
results.
Sure, sure.
367
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,120
Yeah.
I mean, and I, I guess, I guess
368
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:22,280
they're both quote UN quote
medicines in the right
369
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,960
application in different way.
But yeah, I, I tend to agree.
370
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,360
I have no interest in the uppers
and the speed and the
371
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:32,160
amphetamines and stuff.
I'm I'm much more curious about
372
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,840
these unexplored sense of the
consciousness and, and the whole
373
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,000
psychedelic trippy type of world
in general anyway.
374
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,320
So for me, for me personally, it
does, it doesn't speak very much
375
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,520
to me either.
I, I have so many things that
376
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,920
that I kind of want to dive into
and this has been, this is great
377
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,360
already.
One thing that I was curious
378
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:53,480
about to hear your thoughts or
an observation I made while I
379
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,800
was going through your timeline
a little bit was one thing that
380
00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:02,040
I noticed first of all was that
the OSS pre CIA, which was the
381
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,600
government institution that had
preceded it.
382
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,960
I think the CIA was for what is
45 or 46 around that year.
383
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,760
It's 47.
It's the National Security Act,
384
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,240
the same time the Department of
Defense was founded.
385
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,120
Right, right, right.
And but until then, even until
386
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:20,520
then, the government was aware
of the enormous impact of film
387
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,800
on society and its potential for
propaganda.
388
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,440
And what I've noticed was that
the 40s and the 50s felt a lot
389
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,840
more like the like the influence
or the job of the government was
390
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:36,360
to direct the stream.
And then in the 60s and 70s and
391
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,240
became more about fighting a
narrative.
392
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,960
And so you kind of have a shift
in strategy, at least what it
393
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,720
looks like to me from, hey, we
have open heart.
394
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,720
We have, you know, we have a
relatively open society that is
395
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:54,520
that is malleable that we could
kind of push along different
396
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,320
types of social stigmas or
philosophies or political ideas.
397
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,520
And right now?
Maybe what maybe people will
398
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,560
like them, maybe they'll eat
them up.
399
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,120
And so the 40s and 50s felt like
they're a little bit more about
400
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,160
like, you know, that's when they
buy the rights to the to to
401
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,480
Orwell's books.
And that's when, you know, they,
402
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,440
they actually in the whole, I
want to talk about honey traps
403
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,600
too, But I mean, the 60s and 70s
is much more about pushing back
404
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,400
against what this anti
government, anti war, anti, you
405
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,200
know, anti establishment culture
became.
406
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,520
So is, is that, do you think
that's a correct assessment or
407
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:29,720
do you know that?
Do you think it's something
408
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,680
else?
I think you're right that the
409
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,160
certainly the post war
consensus, the kind of liberal
410
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,120
internationalism that grew up
post World War 2, a lot of the
411
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:44,560
earlier CIA operations seem to
be based around that.
412
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,360
They seem to be based around,
let's firstly try and maintain
413
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:53,120
this fairly cushy consensus
society that is emerging or has
414
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:56,880
possibly existed for a while.
And like you'd say directing
415
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,400
that a little bit, directing
that in without necessarily
416
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,120
trying to challenge much or
subvert much, right.
417
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:06,840
Well, oral, I mean, the other
side of things is the stuff that
418
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,240
was targeted against the Soviet
Union, the Cold War propaganda.
419
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,840
But then again, that's part of
the same thing is that we're
420
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,200
saying sort of there is this
liberal international consensus
421
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,960
and somehow the communist Soviet
Union is a rogue element
422
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,840
fighting against this.
It's like, well, there's they
423
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,920
are on the UN National Security
Council.
424
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,960
So I'm not quite sure how you
square that circle, to be
425
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,440
honest.
But but yeah, once you get into
426
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,120
the 60s, you get Vietnam, you
get the the beginnings of the
427
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:36,440
end of that consensus society
and the age, the end of the age
428
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,320
of innocence in America.
A lot of historians think that
429
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,800
actually started in the 60s.
It was not just Watergate, but
430
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,480
Vietnam, I think to some extent
after after Eisenhower left.
431
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:53,600
And then politics became so
acerbic and and angry, angry,
432
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,800
viciously angry at times in the
Nixon Kennedy election.
433
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,560
And because one side of that
one, everyone on the other side
434
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,920
got really quite pissed off for
some reason.
435
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:07,600
Well, for obvious reasons.
And so that consensus society
436
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,000
started falling apart and it
started becoming this more
437
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,240
polarized and fractured society
that we certainly now live in
438
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,040
where everything is sort of
niche and there is no consensus
439
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,960
really on anything much anymore.
And and so, yeah, they were
440
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,920
fighting against certainly the
more radical and subversive
441
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,280
elements of that, while also
trying to assert themselves and
442
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,720
brand themselves because the
CIA, all the people knew the CIA
443
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,440
existed in the 40s and 50s, but
officially they didn't really
444
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,600
confirm or deny much of
anything.
445
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,720
But then post Bay of Pigs, the
failure at the Bay of Pigs in
446
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,480
the early 60s, a lot of people
were suddenly thinking, well,
447
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,840
who the hell are the CIA?
What the hell are they up to?
448
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,760
And so they had to go into a
more public branding mode where
449
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,720
they actually had to try and
brand and and PRFI the CIA
450
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,360
itself.
They had to turn it into
451
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:59,000
something that what did have a
public image, whereas I mean,
452
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,920
even, excuse me, even that
concept of a spy agency, a
453
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,760
secret agency, having a public
image is itself kind of self
454
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,360
contradictory and paradoxical.
And yet it's what they've been
455
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,800
doing since at least the early
60s.
456
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,800
Why?
And just as a parallel in this
457
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,960
country, at the same time, you
get the James Bond movies, the
458
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,840
early James Bond movies.
Now, the British government at
459
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,280
that time didn't admit that MI 6
existed.
460
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,240
In fact, they often denied that
it existed, even though lots of
461
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,200
people knew it existed.
And yet you still have this very
462
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,520
public branding of MI 6 through
the James Bond novels and the
463
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,680
James Bond films.
So it's like you can talk about
464
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,960
this in Hollywood while the
government itself is still
465
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,560
pretending it.
It's not a real thing.
466
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,440
It doesn't exist anymore.
So again, paradoxical PR, if you
467
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,480
see what I mean.
Certainly, Certainly.
468
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,680
Yeah.
And I imagine that one job, but
469
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,600
I think that one job is so much
harder, you know, And I mean, I
470
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,000
just know this from my own
experience.
471
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:59,440
I teach high school and I find
it so much easier to direct a
472
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,640
stream of the students and the
populate the general population.
473
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,160
I find it so much easier to kind
of feel out where they are and
474
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,160
then help.
OK, I see that you guys are
475
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,080
really antsy today.
Let's direct the class to
476
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,640
something that's a little bit
more oriented towards
477
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,480
conversation as opposed to just
sitting and reading or writing,
478
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,000
right?
Or you guys are looking a little
479
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,760
tired today.
So let's, you know, let's, let's
480
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,400
take things a little differently
as A and, and that's a much
481
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,040
easier job.
It's a much easier it's much
482
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,480
easier to be effective when
you're trying to do that as
483
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,160
opposed to when people are, you
know, if it then if my student
484
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,560
is exhausted, I say, come on,
let's go get up, get moving.
485
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,080
And and you just met with
enormous amount of pushback
486
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,960
because you're not meeting
people with where they are.
487
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,360
And so I imagine that the
propaganda.
488
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,520
Or even meeting them halfway,
right?
489
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,280
Yeah, sure, sure.
Exactly.
490
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,720
And I imagine the propaganda job
is, is, is that much more
491
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,040
difficult when there's a huge
sentiment like, why are we in
492
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,520
Vietnam, you know, and, and,
and, and, and, and, and I think
493
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,080
that and, and, and, and for
better, for worse.
494
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,280
When we have a breakdown, for
example, and, you know, for
495
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,280
modern, a modern reference, if
you ask the Trump administration
496
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,040
today why they went to
Venezuela, you know, why we did
497
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,520
what we did in Venezuela, you
literally get 3 or 4 different
498
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,200
responses depending who you're
talking to.
499
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,480
You know, Marco Rubio is going
to say one thing, Trump's going
500
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,120
to say something else.
Pete Headset is going to say
501
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:20,720
something else.
Tulsi Gabbard's going to say
502
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,720
something else.
And, and each of them probably
503
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,320
have their own perspective that
they're coming from, but it's
504
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,640
weird because there's not like
this organized facade anymore.
505
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,720
It feels too uncoordinated and
there's too much, there's too
506
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,640
many flying parts for anyone to
even be to have this organized
507
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,440
facade.
It just it feels like it's
508
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,120
really hard to contain.
It is.
509
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:43,720
There are too many spinning
plates.
510
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,920
The world has got more and more
complicated, more and more
511
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,720
populated.
The economies are in most
512
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,400
countries are in not great
shape.
513
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,480
Widespread consensus, any kind
of democratic consensus doesn't
514
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,520
really seem to exist anymore.
Normalized trust has fallen
515
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,440
through the floor in Western
society.
516
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,280
Most people in most Western
societies don't trust public
517
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,320
institutions, don't even
necessarily trust other people
518
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,720
just generally in the society
that much anymore.
519
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,200
And So what you're seeing, I
think it as a reaction from the
520
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,080
system is it's attempting to
become more authoritarian in
521
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,600
order to try to maintain its
position of authority.
522
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,040
But as it becomes more
authoritarian, more people are
523
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,200
rebelling against it, or at
least becoming cynical and
524
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,960
distrustful of it.
And so that dynamic is just,
525
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,360
it's a, it's a race to the
bottom.
526
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:31,880
It's a downward spiral because
the more people distrust the
527
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,520
government, the harder the
government tries to mess with
528
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,760
their heads and, and just lie
about everything that they're
529
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,120
doing in order to try and
maintain their position.
530
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:42,120
But they can't actually to
maintain that position because
531
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:44,240
trust is just sinking through
the floor anyway.
532
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,240
So you see what I mean?
It's a downward spiral in
533
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,880
democratic politics.
Not that I'm a huge fan of
534
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,840
elective democracy.
I'm just saying from a from the
535
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,880
point of view of someone
observing this, that's what it
536
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,080
feels like to me.
That's what it looks like to me.
537
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,560
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Listen, I, I, I, I don't think.
538
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,040
And I think that this is also
another thing that's come up
539
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,920
with a partisan and polarized
world.
540
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,360
I don't think there's anything
wrong with criticizing, with
541
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:09,960
having some, with having love
for something and pointing out a
542
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,680
flaw in a, in a way that it
could be better, you know, like,
543
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,200
and, and the fact that people
take that as an as an offense or
544
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,520
an insult is it's just so
bizarre to me.
545
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,880
If you told me, hey, I think
you're, I think you're a great
546
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,360
podcast host.
It would have been really
547
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,080
helpful if you interrupted me a
little bit less.
548
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,160
I'm going to say screw you, pal.
Like you know, you, you're not
549
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,480
you're on my side.
You're not on my side.
550
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,760
I feel like, OK, I appreciate
the foot and the feedback.
551
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,680
If that's if that's something
I've been blind to, I'm not
552
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,600
aware of or I was aware of, but
I do need to hear that
553
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:36,800
reinforcement.
Great.
554
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:37,960
Please go ahead.
You know, but.
555
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,840
We all need a little negative
reinforcement.
556
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,920
We all need a little positive
reinforcement.
557
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,400
Generally I try and I try to be
more positive and encouraging
558
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,000
when I do criticize people.
But other times I do just lose
559
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,800
my shit and say whatever it is
that I'm thinking.
560
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,560
We all, we all make mistakes.
We all sometimes go a little far
561
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:59,880
in the things that we say.
But you're right, it is, it's
562
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,800
not just polarized, it's it's
fractured.
563
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,600
There's a, there's a real
spectrum here where anyone who
564
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,760
exists in any particular
political and social demographic
565
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,400
is trained almost in within that
bubble and certainly encouraged
566
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,920
and conditioned within that
bubble to be suspicious of
567
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,360
anything from any other bubble.
And so, and you have to be
568
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:23,240
loyal, you have to be very, very
loyal to the bubble.
569
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,800
So even if you're inside it and
you say, well, actually, I mean,
570
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,160
for the most part, I love this
political movement.
571
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,840
I agree with most of its
principles.
572
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,120
I'm I'm on board with trying to
elect this candidate or
573
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:33,880
whatever.
But I do have some problems
574
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,240
with, with some of these
policies that you're suggesting.
575
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,240
It's like, no, no, you're not
allowed to question the policies
576
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:39,960
we're suggesting.
You have to be completely loyal
577
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,840
to us because otherwise you're a
secret Trumpist or a secret
578
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,320
Democrat or a secret this secret
Zionist, whatever.
579
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,480
And it's like, you're allowed to
be multifarious.
580
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,000
You're allowed to have more than
one opinion about something.
581
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,200
You're allowed to feel more than
one thing.
582
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,680
We contain multitudes.
Each individual contains
583
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,800
multitudes and is more than one
thing.
584
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,200
But certainly politically these
days in terms of the media
585
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,200
politic landscape that we find
ourselves in is supposed to be
586
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,200
just this thing.
You're a part of this
587
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,200
demographic, you're part of this
political movement.
588
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,680
You have these beliefs and any
variation on that is treated
589
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,000
with suspicion and quite often
hostility.
590
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,760
But we do we, we contain more
than one thing.
591
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,520
We are complex beings and we
should just be fucking honest
592
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,840
about that, to be honest.
I I hear hear.
593
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,960
I could not agree.
I could not agree with you more.
594
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,480
I I totally agree.
I wanted to ask, I, I, I, when I
595
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,600
was going through your timeline,
I didn't notice that there was
596
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,960
sometimes where, and you do make
this fair, to be clear, which is
597
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,120
I want to ask you, there are
times where you say that I don't
598
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,920
have a record of support from
whatever government institution,
599
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,880
but there are signs of support
on particular films, right?
600
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,040
And I'm not even bringing up any
particular example unless you
601
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,200
want to provide me with one.
But I just did notice that you
602
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,040
do that sometimes where you say,
you know, there's no official
603
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,240
record of the CIA or the FBI
supporting this film.
604
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,920
However, there are signs, there
are signs of support.
605
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,320
But what what would what would
indicate whether a movie or film
606
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,680
or a television show has has the
support of an agency or not?
607
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:11,960
And how would you identify it?
But.
608
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,440
With the CIA, it's quite
complicated and difficult
609
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,320
because they lie about
everything all the time.
610
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,560
But it can be something as
simple as a piece of stock
611
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,760
footage of CIA headquarters at
Langley.
612
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,920
You don't necessarily have to go
to the CIA to get that, but for
613
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,680
the most part people do.
So you see something like that
614
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,560
in a film, you think, have they
at least gone and got some kind
615
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,280
of courtesy support?
Just a little bit of stock
616
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,960
footage, that aerial panning
shot of Langley that we've seen
617
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,440
in so many films or use of the
CIA seal that you know they.
618
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,960
That's a big one, The compass.
Rose with the eagle at the top
619
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,400
and all of that.
You don't necessarily have to
620
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,760
get the CI as permission to make
a some kind of thing up on the
621
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,880
wall or on the floor or whatever
to show that it is ultimately
622
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,440
public domain.
But still, do you really think
623
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,880
Hollywood film makers are just
going to go fuck the CIA?
624
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,520
What are they going to do to us?
No, they're going to, they're
625
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,680
going to go and ask permission.
And if even if it's just a
626
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,200
little bit of permission here, a
little bit of help there, a
627
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,040
little bit of technical advising
or consultancy that's
628
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,560
essentially off the books, that
happens all the time.
629
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,880
And so these little hallmarks of
CIA support or just for example,
630
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,560
if if a filmmaker, TV producer
hires a former CIA officer as a
631
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,400
consultant, what relationship
does that consultant have with
632
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,920
the agency?
Because they are being hired to
633
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,840
talk about the CIA and they are
supposed to send everything that
634
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,680
they publish about the CIA
through the pre publications
635
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,880
Review Board.
Do they do that with technical
636
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,440
advice and consultancy?
Because some of these people
637
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,320
have said in interviews, public
interviews have said, actually,
638
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,240
I run everything that I do on
the agency past the agency's
639
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,440
Office of public affairs or
someone within Langley.
640
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,160
And I don't know if that's true
for all of these consultants or
641
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:56,880
not.
But so that's another one of
642
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,120
those little hallmarks of were
the agency involved possibly at
643
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,240
one stage removed or something
in this maybe.
644
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:04,760
And it is how they like to do
things.
645
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,680
They do like to recruit assets
and not necessarily do the
646
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,240
things themselves as CIA
officers, but find someone else
647
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,720
to do it for them.
So there's also this, this
648
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,680
lawyer, Rich Klein, who I
mentioned, I've mentioned loads
649
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,400
of times on my side.
I emailed him actually try to
650
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,240
get him on the podcast like you
get them.
651
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,880
I, I came across, I, I, I found
his e-mail and I was like, I
652
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,440
want to hear about your
experience, man.
653
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,720
Well, there are CIA documents
that describe him as a long time
654
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,120
contact of the Office of Public
Affairs at Langley, which to me
655
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,840
just says CIA asset.
I mean, that's what that means.
656
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,640
Ultimately, this guy was, he's a
lawyer.
657
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,440
He was in the State Department,
I think under the Clinton
658
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,040
administration in the 90s.
He then joined Kissinger
659
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,360
Mclarty.
So Henry Kissinger and Mack
660
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,640
Mclarty's law firm that then
split into two law firms.
661
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,240
And Rich Klein went off with
Mclarty and started running this
662
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,720
offshoot or office within that
firm called MC Clarty Media.
663
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,960
It's a media consultancy.
And he said, he said in
664
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,360
interviews, I'm not really a
movie guy.
665
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,080
And so I'm left wondering why on
earth are you that now this
666
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,840
movie consultant for this inside
the Beltway Washington, DC law
667
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:14,640
firm?
It doesn't.
668
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,920
That just doesn't quite add up
to me, Rich, to be honest.
669
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,480
I think I think you may be a bit
of a plant to be honest.
670
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,000
Rich Klein, I have said many
times you are ACIA asset.
671
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,440
It's because you are clearly
some kind of CIA asset.
672
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,000
But there again, if he's working
on say, a Transformers film,
673
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,840
something that doesn't depict
the agency at all, does that
674
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,800
imply that they had any
influence on that?
675
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,440
Maybe, maybe not.
It's another one of those little
676
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,560
hints that you have to think
through and think what what
677
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,840
would be the CI as interest in
this?
678
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,880
And is part of it just about
developing relationships,
679
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,680
winning friends, influencing
people?
680
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,480
And it's, and it's part of it
actually about influencing
681
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,040
content, the stuff that we see
when we actually turn on the
682
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,840
screen and and watch something.
Often I don't know is the
683
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,960
answer.
Often I simply don't know to
684
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,360
what extent the CIA were
involved in something.
685
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,920
But I included all of that stuff
in the timeline because I was
686
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,239
trying to be as be as
comprehensive as possible.
687
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,440
There's no point in doing
something like that without
688
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,320
trying to be as comprehensive as
possible.
689
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,239
Yeah, and to be fair, you again,
you did it.
690
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,080
You did an awesome job.
I wouldn't have even thought.
691
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,800
I also reached out to another
gentleman that that that popped
692
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,520
up on your on your list quite a
bit, Robert Baer.
693
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,600
Yeah.
Reach out to him before I before
694
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,280
I even knew that you before you
before I read your timeline,
695
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,760
which is how I just I was like,
that's great validation to know
696
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,000
that I'm heading the right
direction.
697
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,520
I'm trying to reach out to
people that you already that
698
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,440
you've been, I guess pre vetting
for me.
699
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,280
I appreciate that.
So, you know, I was just like,
700
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,040
because I would love to just
hear what their what their
701
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,320
perception is and what and, and
what their and what their
702
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,040
answers to the public would be.
Just like, Hey, tell me about
703
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,679
your experience and like, what,
what, what was that about and
704
00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:55,760
why, how did you get involved?
Why are you involved?
705
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:57,520
Do you like it?
You know, and and kind of just
706
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,640
hear the human end of their
justification to themselves,
707
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,960
because I think a lot of people
don't especially you get
708
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,640
approached.
And I feel like this way about
709
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,800
I've been showing my high school
class the movie Miracle since
710
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,960
I've been teaching high school.
And that's about that 1980
711
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,720
hockey US Olympic team that the
fought the Soviets.
712
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,760
And the movie provides an
enormous amount of context into
713
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,680
what was going on at the time,
You know, the Iranian, the
714
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,480
Iranian embassy hostages and
the, the issues with gas, the
715
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,760
shortage in the country and, and
Watergate was fresh in
716
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,760
everyone's mind.
And I just one mess after the
717
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,000
next.
And then, you know, this scrappy
718
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,440
team of, of, of college players
come together, Team USA, this
719
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,640
underdog team that, that skates
and beats the Soviets and, and I
720
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,600
show this movie my class.
I think, you know, not all
721
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,520
propaganda is necessarily bad
propaganda.
722
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:52,720
Not all this, this, this
encourages A scrappy effort and
723
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:56,360
unity and working together and,
and whatever, whatever you think
724
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,120
of kind of the, the notion of,
let's say, deleting the
725
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,400
individual identity for the sake
of a larger country and a larger
726
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,400
purpose.
Whether you agree with that or
727
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,680
not, I can definitely hear the
argument being made.
728
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,800
And I'm sure a lot of people
really feel like they're doing
729
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,880
their patriotic duty to the
country by having a positive
730
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,360
impact on the way Americans
perceive America, you know?
731
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,480
In short, not all propaganda is
inherently evil.
732
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,720
I agree with that.
I mean, and pretty much
733
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:26,720
everything in media is
propaganda anyway of some sort
734
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:30,320
or another.
And even even a film, even some
735
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,320
of the worst films that I've
seen from a political point of
736
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,000
view, stuff where I really hate
the politics that it's trying to
737
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,040
inject into the minds of its
audience.
738
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,000
Sometimes I still quite enjoy it
as a movie, just as a thing to
739
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,240
watch.
You can feel more than one thing
740
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:46,080
and have more than one reaction
to something.
741
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:47,920
And I think that's.
What movies?
742
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,480
What movies bother you like
that, can I ask?
743
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,040
I'm sorry I hate to cut you off,
but just what examples of
744
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:56,440
movies?
One of the best examples is the
745
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,720
first Iron Man film, because
that's AUS Air Force sponsored
746
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,120
kind of mythologizing of the war
in Afghanistan to some extent.
747
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,680
And where the central character
gives this lovely press
748
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,160
conference where he speaks out
against the military industrial
749
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,160
complex and how he's, you know,
spent most of his life making
750
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,000
weapons that have just cost
people their lives and destroyed
751
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,520
property and, you know, just
made things worse.
752
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,480
And then he proceeds to make
this incredibly high tech
753
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:22,760
weapon.
And the rest of the film is
754
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,400
actually about watching him blow
stuff up.
755
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,040
So there is a a contradiction
there in terms of is this film
756
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,560
actually criticizing the war in
the military industrial complex
757
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,880
or not?
Is it glamorizing it or not?
758
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,720
It's a little difficult to say.
Certainly there's a lot of
759
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:41,360
politics in that film that that
bugs me and that frankly, I
760
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,640
disagree with a lot of it.
Nonetheless, it's an enormously
761
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,640
entertaining film.
And Robert Downey Junior was
762
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,200
perfectly cast as Tony Stark.
And it's really fun to watch.
763
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,080
It just is a really fun
superhero origin story.
764
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,880
The first Wonder Woman film
actually feel the same about.
765
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,480
I really like the first Wonder
Woman film just as a piece of
766
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,000
cinema, but it is this
mythologizing of World War One
767
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:05,800
has some weird gender politics
in it.
768
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,440
I have to say some stuff that I
find a bit predatory and
769
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,120
disturbing.
It certainly in moments in a
770
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,840
film it's like that.
And it ends up, as with so many
771
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,800
of these films, in this massive,
overly laden CGI, overly long,
772
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,480
overly loud, sensorily
overwhelming, bloody battle
773
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,840
sequence that doesn't really
tell us anything.
774
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:28,480
It doesn't add that much to the
film.
775
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,480
And that was supported by the
British military, the British
776
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,040
Ministry of Defence, a lot of
these sorts of films.
777
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,320
When I find out who, who
actually supported them, I'm
778
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,920
like, that makes sense.
That's why it has that sort of
779
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,920
politics.
It's either something that that
780
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,640
institution has insisted on in
some cases or at least
781
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,920
encouraged in others, or just
film makers know if we want
782
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,320
their help, we have to flatter
their preconceptions and we have
783
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,120
to flatter their agendas.
And it sometimes it's difficult
784
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,800
to know exactly what's happened
in any individual case, but I'm
785
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,200
just using these superhero
movies as examples because
786
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:02,400
they're the ones that are coming
to mind.
787
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,440
And I wrote a book on on Super
Bowl Co wrote a book on
788
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,400
superhero movies and how a lot
of them are propaganda.
789
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:09,640
What's the cause?
I'd love to read it.
790
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,560
Superheroes movies and was it no
hang on superhero movies and the
791
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,080
state or is it superheroes
movies and the state?
792
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:18,960
I keep forgetting it's the most
recent book I've written.
793
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,120
I can't bloody remember the
title anyway, it's the one.
794
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:22,760
It's the one I wrote with Tricia
Jenkins.
795
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,400
People can if they look up Tom
Seka, Tricia Jenkins superhero
796
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,720
book I'm.
Sure, because movies and the
797
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:29,440
state have the US government
shaped cinema.
798
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,560
Oh man, I am so excited to read
this book.
799
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:32,760
I'm ordering this right now, by
the way.
800
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,680
I love this because you know
what?
801
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,240
And if this is half as well
sourced as as the rest of your
802
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:38,720
site, I'm sure that I'm going to
love it.
803
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:43,880
So then in that case, and can I,
I ask now, how do you, and I've
804
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,240
been thinking a lot about this
for my own life, how do you
805
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,040
filter information, find
information that you feel like
806
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,920
is reliable that isn't just
propaganda?
807
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,080
I have my own answer that I've
really been thinking about a lot
808
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,600
recently, but I'd love to hear
your perspective on this.
809
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,880
Well, that's a tricky one,
because some of the some of this
810
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,920
is theoretical, some of this is
more philosophical or spiritual,
811
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,400
where you just have to try to.
Approach things from lots of
812
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,160
different angles.
Try and spin them around 45��,
813
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,640
ninety degrees, 180��, spin them
on different axes and just see
814
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,400
what does this look like from
different perspectives.
815
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,120
There's also just a quality of
source material thing.
816
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,000
If you're talking about news
media or any kind of journalism
817
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:24,120
is what's the quality of
sources?
818
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,560
Is it all anonymous officials
who were quoted saying such and
819
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,960
such off the record, deep
background.
820
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,560
Well, those people could be
anyone and they could be saying
821
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,960
anything and that journalist
could just be making the whole
822
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,600
damn thing up because no one
checks this stuff.
823
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,360
Editors don't give a damn.
They don't check this stuff.
824
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,520
They don't actually say, well, I
want to hear the recording of
825
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,280
the phone conversation you had
with this source.
826
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,200
They just assume that their
journalist is either telling the
827
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,560
truth or they just don't care if
they're making it up.
828
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,880
So I mean, this is one of the
reasons why I'm so frankly
829
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,200
obsessive and fetishistic about
publishing documents on my site
830
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,880
is to show this is the actual
paper trail I've been able to
831
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,960
find.
You might not agree with every
832
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,520
interpretation Ioffer of it.
You might see other things in it
833
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:06,680
that I've missed.
Of course.
834
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,280
Please, please look and try and
figure that out for yourselves.
835
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,040
That's one of the reasons why I
put it out there is so that at
836
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,360
least people have the primary
source material.
837
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,720
At least they can actually go as
close to the source as possible,
838
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,400
the sort of origin server of the
propaganda machine, and see what
839
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,080
it actually is doing and has
done and has said about itself.
840
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,400
Yeah, like I say, different
interpretations are always
841
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,480
possible.
People can criticize things and
842
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,400
analyse things from different
angles than I can.
843
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,160
I'm only one person.
By trying to see things from
844
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,560
lots of different angles, by
drawing together, you know,
845
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,760
reading a lot of history books,
I've read a lot of philosophy,
846
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,160
critical theory, just loads and
loads of different stuff.
847
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,960
Listen to interviews with
different people, listen to
848
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,040
podcasts with different people.
And try and just let all of that
849
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,960
not necessarily wash, wash over
you, but get into your head.
850
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:54,720
So it's there and it's available
to you.
851
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,320
So when you are being lied to,
you're a bit more likely to go.
852
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:01,440
I've heard something about this
before and I think this person
853
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,160
might be lying to me or at least
making something up to some
854
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,240
degree.
So at least you can filter out
855
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:08,400
the crap.
That's the main thing.
856
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,760
It's like there are no perfect
sources of information.
857
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,120
My website is not perfect.
I am not perfect.
858
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,120
I'm not claiming that at all.
I just try and be better than
859
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,800
most and I try and be as open
source about where I got this
860
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,440
information from as I possibly
can and provide it just as a
861
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,920
public resource, as a thing for
the sheer number of journalists
862
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,320
and students and academics and
teachers and so on who've got in
863
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,200
touch with me over the years.
Either to say I found this
864
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,520
really useful, this thing I
found on your site, or asking
865
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,240
me, do you have anything more on
this?
866
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:37,800
Do you have any other
unpublished files?
867
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,760
And trust me, I have files I
will never get around to
868
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:42,800
publishing.
I may one day do a massive
869
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,440
document dump without any
analysis or anything.
870
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,640
It's your links to everything
I've never published that I've
871
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,520
just, you know, never found the
time to upload and sort through
872
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,760
and write about.
I might do that someday.
873
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,360
But seriously, if you are
interested in this and there is
874
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,840
something that sort of, there's
a little bit of it on my site,
875
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,560
but you may be thinking, well
actually I'd like to know about
876
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,120
some other films like that.
You can e-mail me.
877
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,440
And if I've got any further
documents on it, I will just
878
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,000
send them to people.
I'm not in any way try to keep
879
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,720
this secret or holding anything
back.
880
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:10,080
I want this stuff to be out
there.
881
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,160
I want people to use it.
I want people to read it,
882
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,720
whether they're writing a
master's dissertation or they're
883
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:18,120
writing an article for some
media outlet or if they're just
884
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,840
interested in it, or if you're
just interested in this thing
885
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,120
and want to learn more, you can
feel free to e-mail me.
886
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,560
Or I mean, some people know my
my social media or phone number
887
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,000
or whatever, but mostly it just
emails the best.
888
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,360
If you get me in in touch with
me like that, I will happily
889
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,840
stick something up on a cloud
server and just send you a link.
890
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,640
It doesn't take me very much
time at all.
891
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,640
I'm happy to do it.
Yeah, and I appreciate it.
892
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,880
And again, this is, this is fun
work.
893
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,480
It's important work.
And it's really, and it's and
894
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,680
it's interesting too that that
that's what I love about it.
895
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,480
It's, it's so, it's so niche,
but so relevant.
896
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,720
And one of the three reasons,
the reason why I, the reason why
897
00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:59,440
I became fascinated or even
obsessed with the film world to
898
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,440
begin with was because when I
was younger, I was in high
899
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,880
school and I was always getting
rejected by, by any girl that I
900
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,560
was friends with that, that you
know, that I ever dreamt, dreamt
901
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,800
to be more than that.
And, and I was, and I called
902
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,520
myself this hopeless Roman,
yeah, I'm OK now, this hopeless
903
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,520
romantic.
And I thought to myself one day
904
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:20,800
I was talking to a couple of
friends of mine.
905
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,560
I'm like, what does it even mean
to be romantic?
906
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,480
And like, every time I think
romantic, I think of like an
907
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,640
Adam Sandler movie walking on
the beach and 51st dates or
908
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,280
something like that.
And I don't even know what the
909
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,120
word means.
And then I realized how much of
910
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,720
my understanding of everything
I've kind of left up to, to to
911
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:38,600
film and to movies and to
entertainment that to dictate to
912
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:44,200
me what things should be.
And, and in some cases it's
913
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:45,840
better.
In some cases I realize it was
914
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:46,960
worse.
And I said, you know, I want to
915
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,040
be a part of this to try to have
a positive, you know, influence.
916
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:55,880
But I think that I think that I
think that people realize this.
917
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,960
And I think the work that you're
doing is really, really cool and
918
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,640
really, really fun.
And again, spyculture.com and
919
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,000
I'll put the link to it in the
in the in the what do you call
920
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,680
it in the show notes for sure.
The way the way you described is
921
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,480
very similar to what I actually
had concluded as well, which was
922
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,840
pretty much, I feel like we can
end the film world is kind of
923
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,560
like this too.
We can either live in a world
924
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,360
where an algorithm algorithm is
pushed on us, or we can kind of
925
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,720
build our own algorithm of our
own trains of thought.
926
00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:24,800
And what you said about history,
I thought was particularly
927
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,440
insightful and relevant because
the more that the more that I'm,
928
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,920
you know, keeping up with
current events while
929
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,280
simultaneously reading history
or learning, learning about the
930
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,400
places that the current events
are occurring in, the more I
931
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:43,480
realize that nothing really has
been is that new and, and all
932
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,520
this has been done before.
And so one of the best markers
933
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:53,200
of how of ways to determine
information I've noticed is to
934
00:45:53,680 --> 00:46:00,720
find a, is to find a simple and
reasonable motive like money,
935
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,000
for example.
You got to make money.
936
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,800
You got to have profits.
You know, if there's a war in
937
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,520
Venezuela, are we trying to
kidnap their, you know, their,
938
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,960
their, their leader.
What you know, what, what, what,
939
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,280
what, what is there to follow is
that, you know, historically,
940
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:13,960
have we ever been involved in
Venezuela?
941
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,160
Who has relationships with
Venezuela historically?
942
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,520
And what have they been
importing or exporting and what
943
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,520
are they valuing?
And then you say, it's so easy
944
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,760
to see, you know, but all you
had to do is do a couple of a
945
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:25,960
couple of you had to do a couple
of deep dives or listen to a
946
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,280
couple of podcasts about the
history or read a book or two.
947
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,600
You could sit on the couch and
let everyone yell at you what
948
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,440
they think it is.
And the more that you engage in
949
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,720
it, the more specific the
bubble's going to be.
950
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,000
But that's allowing the
algorithm to happen to you as
951
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,840
opposed to you shaping your own
your own perspective, I feel
952
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,400
like.
I mean, absolutely, I agree with
953
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,120
that.
I don't use social media much
954
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,880
partly because it's now been so
algorithms that it's impossible
955
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:54,360
to find anything you really want
to see.
956
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:59,680
Or half the time it is also it
it that sit on the couch, let
957
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,400
the TV shout at you kind of
approach to understanding the
958
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,400
world will just make me put
people more shallow and more
959
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,480
impulsive.
Rather than be a being able to
960
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,240
have that self-discipline to
reflect and challenge their own
961
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:15,200
assumptions.
And maybe clear out some of this
962
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:19,560
accumulated soul baggage and
soul poison that we've been
963
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,560
subjected to in a lot of ways or
sometimes allowed into ourselves
964
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,160
over the years or decades that
we've been alive.
965
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,200
And you're right, this sort of
this sort of propaganda,
966
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,480
cultural propaganda in
particular, has been around for
967
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,080
as long as human civilization
has been around.
968
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,600
I I was a theatre studies
student at school and one of the
969
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,560
things we learnt about, yeah,
shocker.
970
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:45,800
Yeah.
One of the things we learnt
971
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,920
about was how in ancient Athens,
a lot of the plays that they put
972
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,880
on were designed to be cathartic
for the audience.
973
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,600
They were designed to help
cleanse the the citizens and
974
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,400
civilians of Athenian society,
ancient Athenian society, of
975
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,920
whatever was plaguing them, of
whatever was bothering them,
976
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,560
that there was a psychological
or soulful aim here.
977
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,960
And OK, that was something
imposed by the Athenian elites
978
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,680
and then almost unabashedly, and
it's something we know quite a
979
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,040
lot about now.
If you if you're fascinated by
980
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,600
ancient Athens, as I have
sometimes been, is that a good
981
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,360
thing or a bad thing?
Is it partly good?
982
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,560
Is it partly bad?
Was it sometimes a good thing
983
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,560
and sometimes a bad thing?
Consider those kinds of
984
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:29,440
perspectives rather than this
sort of knee jerk.
985
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,840
It has to be good or it has to
be bad or it is propaganda.
986
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,880
Therefore it's this, you know,
that kind of impulsive, shallow.
987
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:36,680
It's this.
Therefore it has to be that or
988
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:38,000
it has to be this thing, all
that thing.
989
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,720
It can't be both.
It can't be neither.
990
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,920
That in particular I'd I'd say
is one of the most important
991
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,600
critical thinking skills to to
develop and to try and
992
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,520
internalize is whenever anyone
is telling you it's either one
993
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,240
thing or another, this binary
thinking, you have to make a
994
00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:55,000
binary choice between it's
either pro this thing or anti
995
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,760
this thing.
Ask yourself the question, is it
996
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:02,000
both or neither to try and
remind yourself of that question
997
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,560
and you'll, you'll make a, a
quantum leap forward in your
998
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:09,160
critical thinking and your
ability to resist the easy
999
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,880
temptation of just going, Oh,
well, it has to be one of these
1000
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:13,160
things.
So I'll just pick, I'll pick
1001
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,680
inside the column A of column B.
So I'll pick column B and and
1002
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,840
that's who I am and that's who
I, I will always be.
1003
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,200
Don't do that.
Basically just don't do that.
1004
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,360
Have the self-discipline and the
self respect to go.
1005
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,000
I think this is actually a bunch
of crap, and it's neither.
1006
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:27,800
I think there's another
perspective here where there
1007
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,800
might even be a hundred other
perspectives here.
1008
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,640
Or maybe it's actually both
simultaneously, as paradoxical
1009
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:35,520
and self contradictory as that
might appear.
1010
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,360
Sometimes paradoxical self
contradictory things are true.
1011
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,960
Yes, a lot of times they are.
A lot of times they are.
1012
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:44,480
Yeah.
I, I mean, I don't know if I
1013
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,200
don't know if this made you its
way into the, into the UK news
1014
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,040
cycle, but in the States, we're
having this, you know, enormous
1015
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:55,280
conflict with ICE in the state
of Minnesota just the other day.
1016
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,160
It looks, it doesn't look good.
I don't know the full context,
1017
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:02,560
but there was this, this, this,
I, I believe an ICU nurse was,
1018
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,640
was killed by ICE and he had,
and he had a, and he had a gun
1019
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,960
on him, although he had never
taken it out.
1020
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,480
They only discovered that he had
the gun once he was, I think
1021
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:17,320
already getting kind of beaten
up a little bit or pushed around
1022
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,080
a little bit.
And then once they discovered
1023
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,040
the gun, I think that was an
excuse to go, you know, to
1024
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,680
continue whatever they're up to,
which is essentially I, it's
1025
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,760
killing him.
I mean that they, they, he was,
1026
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,800
he was killed as from what I see
from my, from from what I was
1027
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,400
able to see from the from the.
Video.
1028
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,320
I agree.
And, and then do this enormous
1029
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,880
immediate response on the right
and again, a right that, that
1030
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,240
I'm not criticizing for the sake
of criticizing because I don't
1031
00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:46,760
like the left or the right or I
don't like, I'm historically
1032
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:47,520
left or right.
I'm not.
1033
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,200
I, I, I, I haven't been
historically politically
1034
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,040
anything because everything has
been so inconsistent that it's
1035
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,560
that I've had my own values and
everyone's been letting me down
1036
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:58,800
about it.
But like, you can't have a gun.
1037
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,360
And if, if you go to, if you go
to, you can't carry a gun if you
1038
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,480
go to protest, like you can't
carry a gun if you go to
1039
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,000
protest.
If you said the same thing
1040
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,680
three-year, if, if the Joe Biden
administration or the Obama
1041
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,640
administration said the same
thing, you would be on the
1042
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,560
street with pitchfork say, you
know, I mean, I don't even know
1043
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:19,320
what you're talking about.
And so to demand that your that
1044
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:26,320
that that your base abandoned
their values to be on your side
1045
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,280
is it is, is, is just, I mean,
if politics feels like Hollywood
1046
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,320
now, politics feels like it's an
extension of Hollywood.
1047
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,920
Tim Dylan, who's an awesome
comedian and very, very funny,
1048
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,760
and I'm split about what I think
about what he thinks, but I
1049
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,720
think that he's endlessly
entertaining and brilliant.
1050
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:44,480
And I think that he says the
same thing.
1051
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,040
He's like, it just feels like
this is just like a it's just a
1052
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:48,760
show.
It's a movie and it just feels
1053
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,000
dumb at this point.
And I can't help but but think
1054
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,720
that a lot of people around the
world are becoming more and more
1055
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:56,920
aware of this and feel that way
very, very strongly.
1056
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,120
For sure.
I mean, politics is just
1057
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:05,280
Hollywood for ugly people.
As was it Jack Valenti said that
1058
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,880
or something.
Anyway, whoever it was who said
1059
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,280
that, it's just.
It's a great phrase.
1060
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,000
It's a great quote.
Yeah.
1061
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,120
This is what they do.
They just gaslight people.
1062
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,680
They light them up and they.
I mean, they, they killed that
1063
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,400
guy, certainly.
And from what I've seen, I've
1064
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,000
mostly, I don't know if it's
actually been in the English
1065
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,680
British media cycle much at all.
I followed it.
1066
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:25,880
What I know about that, I
followed through the project on
1067
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,720
government oversight, which is,
in my opinion, a very good
1068
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:30,720
organization.
They do a lot of good e-mail
1069
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:32,480
bulletins.
And I actually get caught up on
1070
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,240
quite a lot of things quite
quickly that way.
1071
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:39,440
But yeah, they they project on
government oversight.
1072
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:43,280
I think it's pogo.org.
Certainly I recommend people
1073
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,120
taking a look at their e-mail
newsletters and maybe signing up
1074
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,160
for those.
It's a much better way than to
1075
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:49,040
it.
For sure.
1076
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:50,200
Awesome.
Thank you.
1077
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:51,920
Yeah.
So anyway, I'm sorry, continue
1078
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:52,560
your thought.
I'm sorry.
1079
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:55,760
Well, this is what it's going to
say, that they've somehow
1080
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,280
convinced, like you say, if this
has been Biden who'd said this,
1081
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,720
that you can no longer in any
way have a gun at a protest.
1082
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,440
I think there are quite
substantial portions of people
1083
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,320
on the on the right,
particularly the libertarian
1084
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,160
right, who would be absolutely
apoplectic about this.
1085
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,400
They would be rejecting it.
They would be saying this is
1086
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,800
government authoritarianism.
We're not going to stand for
1087
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,080
this.
We're not going to take this.
1088
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,480
And in my opinion, to some
extent, quite rightly, if I
1089
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,560
lived in the States, I, they
don't know.
1090
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:23,640
I suppose it depends which part
of the states I lived in as to
1091
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,480
whether I would have a gun.
I certainly don't have some kind
1092
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,880
of blanket.
No one should ever own private
1093
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:30,760
firearms.
People own private firearms in
1094
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,600
this country.
And it's not, it's not like a
1095
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,880
significant problem as far as I
can tell, outside of, you know,
1096
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,280
gangland and, you know,
organized crime.
1097
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,120
It's mostly, it's mostly just
people who I don't know, maybe
1098
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,800
do a bit of hunting, maybe they
live on farms or something.
1099
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,040
It's much more of a rural thing
than a city thing in this
1100
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,880
country.
But at any rate, you're right
1101
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,440
that that sheer hypocrisy of,
oh, we're now accepting, we're
1102
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,880
now somehow being gas lit into
believing that this principle
1103
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,880
that we've stood by and there's
been a real sort of maybe it's
1104
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,280
not a principle, just a general
attitude in politics for a long,
1105
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,440
long time that we don't want the
government dictating to us
1106
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:11,080
whether or not we're allowed to
carry firearms or what exactly
1107
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:12,920
were allowed to do with them or
not do with them.
1108
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,480
Whether you agree with that
belief or not, it is one that's
1109
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,960
been maintained by the American
right for a long time.
1110
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,080
And yet all it takes is to
suggest, oh, because it's about
1111
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,280
now about immigration, It's now
about ICE and immigration
1112
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,080
enforcement.
Oh, now you have to be on the
1113
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,760
side of that.
So now you have to choose, are
1114
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,080
you in favor of privately owned
firearms or are you in favor of
1115
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,080
cracking down on the, on the
so-called bleeding illegal
1116
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,520
immigrants, whoever, whoever the
hell you think these people are?
1117
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,440
And I mean, it's not like you
can tell by looking at someone
1118
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,120
where they were born or whether
they've got certain paperwork
1119
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,120
and so on and so on.
And yeah, from what I
1120
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:49,120
understand, the ICE officers, if
you want to call them that
1121
00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:51,680
escalated that situation.
They basically picked a fight,
1122
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,080
escalated it, and then when
things started to go bad, they
1123
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,320
killed someone.
And it's just the same as we've
1124
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,960
seen from police and FBI and all
sorts of, especially government
1125
00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:03,120
federal agencies and the big
city police departments.
1126
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:04,880
They do this sort of thing all
the time.
1127
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,120
They provoke situations, they
pick fights, they escalate them.
1128
00:55:08,240 --> 00:55:10,240
And if anyone fights back,
suddenly the person who's
1129
00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:12,760
fighting back is the problem,
but they're not.
1130
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:17,360
Wrist is what they call them.
Something like that lone wolf
1131
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:19,840
whatever, some sort of absurd
media label.
1132
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:22,200
But it's, it's just bollocks to
be honest.
1133
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,760
It's just bullshit.
People are allowed to reject the
1134
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:26,800
authority of the state.
They're allowed to fight back
1135
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,520
against it, especially when it's
actively impressing them in that
1136
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,600
moment.
It's not, it's not like this
1137
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,120
person went and shot a
politician because of something
1138
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,400
they said three years ago.
That's, that's, that's a very,
1139
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,160
very different thing that we're
talking about.
1140
00:55:38,720 --> 00:55:40,840
People are allowed to rebel
against the government.
1141
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:42,640
If you're not allowed to rebel
against the government, then
1142
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,040
you're essentially living in a
fascist security state.
1143
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:47,640
And I I don't want to live in a
fascist security state and
1144
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:51,240
pretty much no one does.
Well, some people do, but, but I
1145
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:53,360
think that they don't, they
don't think about the
1146
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:54,480
repercussions.
I think.
1147
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,840
And I'm actually trying to teach
my students about a lot of that
1148
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:58,880
stuff now.
I'm teaching them the, the the
1149
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:00,040
giver.
Now, I don't know if you if you
1150
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,840
remember that book, but that was
that was that was a really good
1151
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,040
example of it.
Yeah.
1152
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:07,560
And you know what?
And I don't think there's
1153
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:08,760
anything wrong.
Like I've had friends that
1154
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:10,200
brought it up to me because it's
funny.
1155
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,680
I tend to be on the left-leaning
end of my, you know, for my
1156
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,760
right wing friends and then more
right wing for my left wing
1157
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:18,880
left-leaning friends.
But they're like, what do you
1158
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,680
think of this Sound like, dude,
I think it's terrible.
1159
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,080
Every time a government agent
kills a civic kills a citizen of
1160
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:26,800
their of their, of their
government period.
1161
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,360
Like if you want to talk about
how it has to escalate the
1162
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,680
particular one off, whether it
could have happened or whether
1163
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,280
it shouldn't have happened, you
know, we could talk about that
1164
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,320
particular case.
I was like, but dude, like you
1165
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:41,560
can say I want to get rid of the
let's say whatever you say you
1166
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,760
are against having the, the
immigrants in this country
1167
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,360
undocumented or illegal or we're
trying to get them out.
1168
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:49,760
Let's say you're for that.
That doesn't mean you're for
1169
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:51,960
government killing citizens like
that one.
1170
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:53,920
A does not equal B.
They're not mutual.
1171
00:56:54,240 --> 00:56:58,080
They're not mutually exclusive.
And it's not fair to, it's, it's
1172
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:01,000
not fair to ask people to line
themselves up with that camp and
1173
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:02,240
again, throw away all their
values.
1174
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:05,520
But I, I digress.
I'm going to talk.
1175
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:09,400
I want to, I want to actually, I
want to ask your thoughts, if
1176
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,040
you don't mind.
And maybe this is a little
1177
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:14,240
bonkers, but I don't know if it
is, what's your thoughts on the
1178
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:20,280
relationship between the
government, Hollywood, aliens,
1179
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:21,960
or a little bit more of the
paranormal stuff?
1180
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,640
Because there's a lot of
documentation that the
1181
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,400
government at least takes this
stuff very seriously.
1182
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,720
There's a lot of, there's a lot
I, I don't know, I have to
1183
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,280
actually find the hard documents
about Spielberg being associated
1184
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,080
with the government.
But certainly I heard that
1185
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,120
there's, there's a lot of
relationships there.
1186
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,000
Do you have anything on that or
do you know anything?
1187
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,400
About that, Well, Spielberg has
definitely made a whole bunch of
1188
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,000
films that were supported by
government agencies, an awful
1189
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:48,800
lot of which star Tom Hanks, if
you want to.
1190
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,400
Yeah, for some reason he's, he's
just addicted to making state
1191
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,320
sponsored propaganda with Tom
Hanks relief was for about 20
1192
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:57,720
years.
You know, certainly the the
1193
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:03,400
aliens thing that has shifted.
It used to be for a long time
1194
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:08,160
that the military would reject
any UFO movie, extraterrestrial
1195
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:10,480
movie, anything like that.
They had a big fight on
1196
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,200
Independence Day in the mid 90s
over whether or not they were
1197
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,040
going to support that film,
which included bizarre stuff
1198
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,680
like some military official
actually wrote a memo saying
1199
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:24,160
that the Area 51 facility that
they go to in the third act of
1200
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,640
the film, second third act of
the film, that that should
1201
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,640
actually not be run by the
government in any way.
1202
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,160
And they wanted it to be some
kind of, you know, nonprofit,
1203
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,680
fairly vague organization, sort
of non state in some fashion.
1204
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,000
And one of these military
officials even suggested having
1205
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,560
that facility be run by an
extraterrestrial disguised as a
1206
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:45,920
human being.
So this is some kind of, you
1207
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:51,080
know, David Icke, lizard man,
shapeshifter, I don't know what.
1208
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,040
It's a really bizarre thing to
read in one of these one of
1209
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,680
these documents.
Like what do you make of that?
1210
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,440
Well, maybe that military
official just liked David Icke
1211
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,920
like that sort of idea.
I don't know.
1212
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,520
But certainly since the
certainly since the turn of the
1213
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:13,360
2000s, the military has now been
involved in a tonne of
1214
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:17,440
extraterrestrial and UFO movies.
Spielberg's version of War of
1215
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,240
the Worlds, which I'm not a big
fan of that film.
1216
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,480
I have to say I did do a podcast
on it some years ago, or I was
1217
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,760
on a podcast discussing it some
years ago and it was just kind
1218
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:27,840
of like petty gripes, the
podcast.
1219
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:31,080
Every single scene we had some
kind of gripe out, pretty much.
1220
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,280
It's a good time and I hope you
had a couple of Guinness, a
1221
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:36,720
couple of beers of you or
something like that.
1222
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,040
We do, we do have a good time
talking about that and having
1223
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:41,400
having a good bitch about the
film.
1224
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:45,800
But that had that an absolute
ton of military support of all
1225
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:47,960
the, all the documents that I've
been able to find on that,
1226
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,760
they're all on my site now.
And then into the late 2000s,
1227
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:56,480
early 2000 and 10s, you get
Pacific Rim and that battle Los
1228
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:59,720
Angeles and a whole bunch of
other alien or extraterrestrial
1229
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:03,840
invasion movies.
The first Superman Warner DC
1230
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,200
Universe film, Man of Steel, is
essentially an alien invasion.
1231
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:09,640
Film.
It's not really a superhero
1232
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:11,520
film, it just happens to have
Superman in it.
1233
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,200
It's otherwise a moderately
generic alien invasion film.
1234
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:17,360
Loads of military support on
that one.
1235
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:19,120
On and on.
I mean, you can.
1236
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,520
You can lead.
Read a list of these things on
1237
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,160
my site.
Captain Marvel was a centrepiece
1238
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:26,800
of this.
It was a centrepiece of this
1239
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:32,160
effort to try to essentially
weaponize the UFO movie to
1240
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:34,240
promote the militarization of
space.
1241
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,280
And they've been trying to push
some version of the military's
1242
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,520
been trying to push some version
of this, you know, boots on the
1243
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:43,720
moon, bases on the moon, some
kind of satellite based weaponry
1244
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:48,560
since I think the early 70s was
as far back as I was able to, to
1245
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,760
find anything on it.
So that has been building for a
1246
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,480
while.
And when you see in the 2000 and
1247
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,480
10s, you have all of these UFO
declassifications, all of these
1248
01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:59,600
videos, all of these documents,
they're suddenly saying,
1249
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,200
actually, we've had a ton of
this stuff for decades and we're
1250
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:03,680
now just going to dump it all
online.
1251
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,040
Hundreds and hundreds of
thousands of pages of documents,
1252
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:09,320
UFO files from the Navy, the Air
Force, whoever, same in this
1253
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,040
country.
British Ministry of Defence just
1254
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,840
started dumping.
Yeah, vast amounts of
1255
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,360
documentation through the
National Archives, finally
1256
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:17,880
admitting that.
Yeah, actually we seem to have
1257
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,120
had a whole bunch of.
It's not just some crackpot
1258
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:22,280
who's stoned and sat on a
hillside who's claimed they've
1259
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,720
seen a UFO.
It's actually our own military
1260
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,320
officials who are saying they've
been abducted at times and
1261
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,120
things like that.
So whether or not you believe
1262
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:32,440
those things, make your own
judgment calls.
1263
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:37,000
I, I don't know, actually, a lot
of the time I'm not sure why I
1264
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,160
think of a lot of that stuff,
but certainly there is this
1265
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:42,720
thing in the 2000 and 10s when
Space Force got on the military
1266
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:47,320
agenda again, they started
pushing it in Hollywood in 2015
1267
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,560
I believe.
And this was done covertly.
1268
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:51,960
This wasn't done through
specific film projects they were
1269
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,440
working on.
It was actually a producer at
1270
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:59,280
Marvel at the time called Jeremy
Latcham, who Trisha interviewed
1271
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,040
for our superhero book,
superhero movie book.
1272
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:06,560
And he said there was this
senior Air Force Colonel
1273
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,640
general, certainly a high up
official, high up officer in the
1274
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,080
Air Force hierarchy, who was out
in Hollywood shortly after the
1275
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:17,160
2nd Avengers movie came out,
Avengers Age of Ultron.
1276
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:21,040
And that was in 2015, two
thousand and 1516.
1277
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:25,040
Before Trump even gets elected
the first time, the US military
1278
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,200
are pushing Space Force in
Hollywood and pushing the
1279
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,360
weaponization and militarization
of Space Force in Hollywood.
1280
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,800
So then Trump comes in and he
sort of latches onto this thing.
1281
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:36,240
It was obviously a Pentagon
plan.
1282
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,080
It's I know it was branded as a
Donald Trump thing.
1283
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,320
It wasn't.
The Pentagon were pushing this
1284
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:44,600
for years, if not decades before
Trump ever even got into office
1285
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,000
the first go round.
And then he becomes so, you
1286
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:48,920
know, makes this big
announcement, this whole new
1287
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:51,320
branch of the military, all the
rest of it.
1288
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:53,600
And around the time that Trump
starts making these
1289
01:02:53,600 --> 01:03:00,000
announcements, the Air Force ran
a tour essentially kind of junk
1290
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,760
it for Hollywood types going to
Space Command.
1291
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:06,920
And among the people who went on
that tour were the producers and
1292
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:09,320
the two Co directors of Captain
Marvel.
1293
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,040
So then Captain Marvel comes out
right as Space Force is being
1294
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:14,960
officially founded, give or
take.
1295
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:18,000
This timeline is I've, I've put
this on on my site and I think I
1296
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:21,160
did an episode on Captain Marvel
and I've done other articles on
1297
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:25,160
this.
This was clearly a concerted and
1298
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:29,560
coherent propaganda effort to
take the supposed threat of
1299
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,240
alien invasion and use it
through Hollywood among other
1300
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:36,560
means, but through Hollywood as
a justification for militarizing
1301
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,400
and weaponizing space.
It's like it's the new threat.
1302
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:43,720
It's no longer or alongside the
terrorists and the ISIS and
1303
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:45,800
Russians and Chinese and all the
other threats that they
1304
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:47,880
constantly bombard us with and
tell us are they sort of
1305
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,280
existential threat, existential
risk to our civilizations.
1306
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:53,960
It's now we've got to worry
about the the you know, green
1307
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,360
headed multi eyed Martians or
whatever, whoever, whoever the
1308
01:03:57,360 --> 01:03:59,280
hell they are in all these
different films.
1309
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:02,800
And so many of those films are
supported by the military.
1310
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:07,040
The CIA has had a slightly
different history with this
1311
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:09,760
because sometimes they've
actually pushed or encouraged
1312
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:15,160
ufology as a subculture.
They've sometimes, it seems,
1313
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:18,560
been involved in UFO movies
going back to the day the Earth
1314
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,480
stood still in the early 1950s.
That some people believe was
1315
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:25,520
some kind of CIA experiment to
see how people would respond to
1316
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,400
this or what they thought of it
or to just put the idea out
1317
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:29,720
there.
You know, just trying to
1318
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:32,760
acclimatize people to this idea
that there might be a big alien
1319
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:36,400
invasion or alien alien arrival
at some point.
1320
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:39,680
And maybe it's already happened
and it just all got covered up
1321
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:41,720
or something weird.
And we don't know, do we?
1322
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:46,720
We don't know if, if Roswell, NM
if there was a crash in 47, it
1323
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,880
seems there was most of the
evidence tends towards something
1324
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,240
happened there, but what the
hell it actually was.
1325
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,880
I don't know.
I I mean, I, I haven't dug into
1326
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:58,480
it in great depth or anything,
but just I mean as much of how.
1327
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:00,640
Contact.
The what?
1328
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:01,560
Once the what?
Sorry.
1329
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,480
It was called moment of contact.
I don't.
1330
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,440
I've only become aware of it
very recently and it was about a
1331
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:17,120
Brazilian case where apparently
a crashed UFO and beings were
1332
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,880
not only recovered, but
actually, and there's records of
1333
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:25,800
this.
There was a, there was an alien
1334
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,360
or not human entity that was
taken to a that was taken to two
1335
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:33,760
regional hospitals in Brazil. 1
turned it away at the door and
1336
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:39,520
the other one got checked out
And the officer that had handled
1337
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:43,040
actually like scooped up the
injured being got a little bit
1338
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:48,000
of bacteria under its nail, his
nail and died very short very
1339
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:52,520
shortly after.
And then they just got when you
1340
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,560
locked this up just the other,
just the other day, the head
1341
01:05:55,560 --> 01:06:01,160
neuro, the head neurosurgeon, I
believe at the hospital to, to
1342
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:05,720
come before Congress and say
that I had contact.
1343
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:09,960
I had eyes on this being for
several minutes and was and,
1344
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:14,160
and, and, and, and he had, and,
and then there was a group of
1345
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:17,320
other doctors that had worked
with him for 3035 years that all
1346
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:20,760
are testifying to his very sound
state of mind and being.
1347
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:24,440
And like, you don't know what,
that, what that meat, you know,
1348
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,000
I mean, and I, I, I, I, if
you're interested in this kind
1349
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:30,280
of thing or like the potential
truth of it, moment of contact
1350
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:34,000
and, and a lot of work is being,
is unfolding in real time right
1351
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:35,320
now.
And I don't know what to make of
1352
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:38,480
it either.
Like this stuff is this stuff is
1353
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:42,560
wild, but it does feel like
we've been like I, I, there's a
1354
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:47,080
very, it feels like it's been a
slow drip exposure event that
1355
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:49,160
like over the course of time,
people are becoming more and
1356
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:52,480
more, you know, through film and
through lore and through
1357
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,040
podcasts and through
information, people are becoming
1358
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:57,920
more and more open to this
concept when particular in
1359
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,280
America, it's it's so ridiculed,
it's crazy.
1360
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:04,440
And well, I think it's it's
simultaneously being normalized
1361
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,280
and ridiculed, which makes it a
little difficult to understand
1362
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:09,640
what's the agenda here?
Is it only one agenda or the
1363
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:12,520
multiple agendas in terms of the
propaganda around this
1364
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:14,360
particular subject?
Sure.
1365
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:17,960
Like countering the thing that
bothers me the most about it is
1366
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:21,680
that people see this thing, that
OK, so we do seem to be getting
1367
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:24,680
more and more evidence of
intelligent life beyond Earth.
1368
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:29,200
And that is most likely, it
would seem by now, unless all of
1369
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,320
these things are somehow
fabricated or all of these
1370
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:32,880
things are somehow
hallucinations.
1371
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,720
It seems that there has been
some kind of alien crash, alien
1372
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,120
visitations, abductions, things
like that.
1373
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:40,320
These things do seem to have
happened.
1374
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:42,400
As.
As if I had to, if I had to
1375
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:44,240
hedge my bets, that's the side
I'd go on.
1376
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:47,720
Yeah, but how, how is the system
responding to that?
1377
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:50,240
Is it saying actually, it says
this could be a great thing,
1378
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:53,040
This could actually be an
amazing thing for the human
1379
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:54,520
race?
It's going no, no, no.
1380
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:56,440
They're a threat.
There's something we have to
1381
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:58,440
militate against.
There's something we have to be
1382
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:02,640
afraid of that we go back to
that, you know, that that very
1383
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:05,520
negative energy, that very
negative response to it.
1384
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:10,280
We we revert to the to seeing it
as a national security threat
1385
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:12,840
when it's like, well, it isn't
even a national security threat
1386
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:14,360
anyway.
If it is a security threat, it's
1387
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:17,640
a global threat.
But I don't really see it as a
1388
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:19,399
threat anyway.
I mean.
1389
01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:22,920
Because we're all here.
Well, if this has been going on
1390
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:25,720
since the 40s or 50s, like
everyone's been saying, or even
1391
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:29,359
longer than that, I mean, they
loves us alone to be here for me
1392
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:32,000
and you to be talking, you know,
I mean, like life is still going
1393
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:32,960
on.
Things are OK.
1394
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,359
And if anything, a lot of the
speculation is that a lot of the
1395
01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:39,200
great advancements that we've
made have been have have been
1396
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:41,120
as, as, as a consequence of
their technology.
1397
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,800
And so like you said, it doesn't
seem like it's it's going to be
1398
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,479
a threat as much as an
opportunity to evolve.
1399
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:51,359
Or just an opportunity to learn
more and try to understand
1400
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:54,120
ourselves better, which I guess,
yeah, I mean, that's what you're
1401
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:55,319
saying.
That's a form of spiritual
1402
01:08:55,319 --> 01:08:56,760
evolvement.
Or yeah, yeah.
1403
01:08:57,319 --> 01:08:59,439
Evolvement, but also
technological evolvement.
1404
01:08:59,920 --> 01:09:01,760
Evolution.
It would seem that that is,
1405
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:05,840
again, if, if we, if we assume
that these crashes and things
1406
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:08,439
and, and landings and whatever
else has happened have taken
1407
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:12,000
place, it would make sense that
some of that technology has been
1408
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:14,439
reverse engineered and
understood and has found its way
1409
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:17,200
into something that we're now
using.
1410
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:20,680
I mean, does anyone really
understand, for example, how the
1411
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:22,439
Internet works and where it came
from?
1412
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:24,479
Because it's lots of different
pieces from lots of different
1413
01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:27,399
places that have to come
together in a particular way for
1414
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:30,760
us to get the Internet that
actually works, including things
1415
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:32,840
like encryption and decryption
in the Internet.
1416
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:38,279
And you know, I won't get into a
lengthy Babble about my concerns
1417
01:09:38,279 --> 01:09:40,880
about exactly where the Internet
came from and my questions about
1418
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:42,560
that.
But all of these technologies
1419
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,800
that we now enjoy and many of
which are really cool in terms
1420
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,439
of facilitating this
conversation, for example,
1421
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:51,840
wouldn't be possible back in the
90s.
1422
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:52,960
We just wouldn't be able to have
it.
1423
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:55,560
I don't think wouldn't even be
able to get in touch.
1424
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:57,400
Wouldn't be I wouldn't even had
a website.
1425
01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:59,640
You wouldn't even had a podcast.
It just wouldn't have happened.
1426
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:03,120
And that's not that long ago.
So that's great.
1427
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:04,760
You're.
In the bucket, literal drop in
1428
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:07,800
the bucket relative to to
everything else you know.
1429
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:13,520
And so I, I don't see it as a
threat, partly just because I've
1430
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:17,400
spent my whole adult life living
in this politics of fear world
1431
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,360
where almost everything is
described in scary terms and
1432
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:22,600
everything is a threat.
And it doesn't matter which
1433
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,120
person or type of person we're
talking about, which country
1434
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:28,240
we're talking about, which I
mean, people, people blather on
1435
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,400
about like social media being a
threat.
1436
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:33,680
Well, it's just a technology.
It depends on how we choose to
1437
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:36,920
use it and how we use it.
Otherwise, it's just a bunch of
1438
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:39,000
apps and websites.
It's not inherently threatening
1439
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:42,920
to anyone.
So we have to make, we have to
1440
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,080
make better choices.
To be honest with a lot of these
1441
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:49,440
things, and I'll say that, but I
just, I generally reject this
1442
01:10:49,440 --> 01:10:56,320
mentality of, of making fear the
primary reaction to things.
1443
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:59,640
I've lived with enough, enough
fear in my own personal life
1444
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:02,720
because I mean, some people know
this, a lot of people know this.
1445
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:05,480
I suffer from PTSD.
I'm not going to get into
1446
01:11:05,480 --> 01:11:08,320
exactly what's happened to me.
It's caused that, but it's a
1447
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:10,000
long term, it's a long term
condition.
1448
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:12,760
So I know fear.
I know fear better than I think
1449
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:15,320
most people do, or at least I've
lived with a lot more fear than
1450
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:17,520
a lot of people have.
And so I kind of just almost
1451
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:20,920
reflexively reject it when the
media tries to impose it on me,
1452
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,280
or when politicians try to
impose it on me and others.
1453
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:25,440
And fuck that.
No, we've got more than enough
1454
01:11:25,440 --> 01:11:27,440
fear in this world.
We don't need more.
1455
01:11:27,440 --> 01:11:30,800
We don't need to artificially
make people more traumatized and
1456
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:33,920
more fearful and more anxious
and more stressed and more
1457
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,720
paranoid, because frankly, we've
had enough.
1458
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:38,960
We've suffered enough from this
stuff anyway.
1459
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:41,440
I certainly have in my own life.
I know loads of other people who
1460
01:11:41,440 --> 01:11:44,120
have too.
And so, yeah, I, I just almost
1461
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:47,040
knee jerk reflexively go, no, I
don't, I don't buy this thing,
1462
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:50,000
this latest threat that you've
lined up and you're now hyping
1463
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:53,320
up in the media and maybe you've
been hyping up for years,
1464
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:57,320
decades, possibly centuries in
some things, with some things.
1465
01:11:57,560 --> 01:11:59,880
I just don't buy it.
I don't want to buy it.
1466
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:02,280
And so unless someone shows me
some incredibly compelling
1467
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:05,760
evidence that we are being
bombarded by alien attacks
1468
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:08,840
without somehow noticing it,
then I'm, I'm just, I'm just not
1469
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:10,280
buying that worldview.
I'm not buying.
1470
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:12,880
It's not even a worldview.
It's a universe view, a Galaxy
1471
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:15,000
view, a solar system view,
whatever you want to call it.
1472
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:17,000
I just don't buy that way of
looking at things.
1473
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:20,880
Yeah, well, I mean, we do know
that the most effective way to
1474
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,880
control people is through fear,
right, Because fear, I think my
1475
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:27,760
understanding of at least my
fear of my fears in general, and
1476
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:32,600
I tend to be a pretty fearful
person as as far as historically
1477
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:38,320
is, is the is I feel like fear
for a lot of people is the is
1478
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:42,720
the in the the the cut you're
you're not confident in your
1479
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:45,720
ability to handle the unknown or
what you're about to face.
1480
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,600
And and and that's why people
like familiarity.
1481
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:51,920
And that's how people prefer
even to struggle with a similar
1482
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:54,880
issue than potentially face an
unknown solution.
1483
01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:57,960
That which is a famous
expression that out of the the
1484
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:00,480
devil that you that you know,
then the solution that you don't
1485
01:13:00,480 --> 01:13:03,080
know.
And I think that a lot of people
1486
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:06,360
feel like that.
But I think that, listen, if you
1487
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:09,880
want to study people and big
and, and groups of people and
1488
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:12,960
fear, you don't have to look
much further than COVID.
1489
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:15,760
You don't have to look further
than Trump's, you know, entire
1490
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:18,160
political career.
You don't have to look further
1491
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:20,160
than Biden's, Biden's
presidency.
1492
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:23,680
I mean, the, the you, you can
look anywhere and everything is
1493
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:26,560
just about a culture of and this
is the worst thing ever.
1494
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:30,320
And like you said, you know,
personal life is complicated
1495
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:32,560
enough.
It's so hard to get through
1496
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,400
day-to-day and live your life as
a human being and try to
1497
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:37,840
accomplish something and you
know, and have meaningful
1498
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:39,960
relationships and really do
something with yourself.
1499
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:42,720
It's hard enough to do that
without the entire world
1500
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:47,520
imposing just one in one
catastrophe after the next, just
1501
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:49,320
lining up and bombarding you
with it all the time.
1502
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:52,520
So I commend you for for, for,
for not playing that game and
1503
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:54,480
for rejecting that view.
I think it's really valuable.
1504
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:57,840
Well, I commend you too.
I think it's a really important
1505
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:00,320
thing.
The the reasons, the the biggest
1506
01:14:00,320 --> 01:14:02,680
driver of human behaviour is how
people feel.
1507
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:06,200
If people feel less fear, less
anger, they're likely to behave
1508
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:07,760
a lot better.
They're likely to be able to.
1509
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:11,360
They react to things a lot
better for one and, and, and be
1510
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:14,360
proactive in, in more ways.
It can be hard, quite hard to be
1511
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:17,360
proactive in your own life when
you're bombarded by fear because
1512
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:20,160
it is paralyzing.
It does keep keep you in the
1513
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:22,200
same place.
And it can be hard to confront
1514
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:24,880
or sometimes some people
impossible to confront, at least
1515
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:26,280
for a time.
You know, these things
1516
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,640
overcoming and and recovering
from these things can take a lot
1517
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:32,120
of time.
Just personally speaking and
1518
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:35,360
just, I know, I know a lot of
people who suffered from various
1519
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:38,120
things and have a lot of trauma
in their lives and they're sick
1520
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:39,480
to death of all of this stuff
too.
1521
01:14:39,480 --> 01:14:42,160
And they often just switch off
because it's like, I don't, I
1522
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:44,120
don't need any more fear and
anger in my life today.
1523
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:45,800
I don't need to be paranoid and
neurotic.
1524
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:47,960
I'm already paranoid and
neurotic enough to be honest.
1525
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:55,560
Everyone I know that watches too
much news is already already has
1526
01:14:55,560 --> 01:14:58,800
enough anxiety and, and, and
fear in their lives to, to, to,
1527
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:01,920
to be able to cut that out and
still be and still have a have
1528
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:06,360
plenty to work on, you know?
And so you're right, a lot, a
1529
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:09,520
lot of people do go for what's
familiar because it seems to be
1530
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:12,800
comfortable.
And we are simultaneously
1531
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:15,720
creatures of habit.
And so we like the familiar and
1532
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:18,680
we like the things that we know
and that we think we can rely on
1533
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:21,520
and feel we can rely on.
But we are also creatures of
1534
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:24,360
imagination.
And imagination can be
1535
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:28,520
pessimistic or optimistic.
You can catastrophize and
1536
01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:31,360
imagine the worst case scenarios
and that can hold you back.
1537
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:33,880
Or you can try and be
optimistic, try, try and be
1538
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:36,320
loving and optimistic towards
yourself, towards others,
1539
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:39,760
towards the future and think
things can get better because
1540
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:44,120
they can using every single time
I've I've hit the emotional rock
1541
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:46,760
bottom in my life, things have
got better afterwards.
1542
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:49,160
And I keep trying to remind
myself of that, that yeah, life
1543
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:53,000
can be really horrible at times,
but it can also be fantastic at
1544
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:55,200
times.
And that you can overcome these
1545
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:57,640
things and you can keep going
and you can get better.
1546
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:02,640
And I say, maybe we need to
somehow weaponize the optimistic
1547
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:06,160
imagination against the
pessimistic imagination, or at
1548
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:08,960
least at least instrumentalize
it against that.
1549
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:13,320
And that's, that will, that will
get us somewhere that will
1550
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:16,040
improve us, that will lead to
better societies and better
1551
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:19,400
individuals and just a more kind
of compassionate and
1552
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:23,080
understanding and mutually
accepting of differences and and
1553
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:24,720
so on and so on.
All the things that a lot of
1554
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:26,800
people actually want from
society, or at least would feel
1555
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:29,440
a hell of a lot better if that's
what our our human civilization
1556
01:16:29,440 --> 01:16:32,280
was more like.
I think that's possible.
1557
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:33,960
And it's not just I think it's
possible.
1558
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:36,160
I know it's possible.
I know it from my own life and I
1559
01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:37,440
know it from the lives of
others.
1560
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:39,240
Yeah, yeah.
And that's the goal of this
1561
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:41,040
podcast.
I mean, the goal of this podcast
1562
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:44,160
is to be that hopeful
alternative and to say, yeah, I
1563
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:48,800
try that whatever, whatever,
whatever rabbit hole I go down,
1564
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,600
there's, there's almost always
something positive that could be
1565
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:55,680
done about it or something not
even necessarily positive, but
1566
01:16:55,680 --> 01:17:00,120
some some form of autonomy where
you could take your own response
1567
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:02,440
and your own reaction into your
own hands and do something about
1568
01:17:02,440 --> 01:17:07,720
it in a way that is not
necessarily what is prescribed
1569
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:09,840
to, you know, for you.
And I think that's really,
1570
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:13,680
really valuable.
And we can try and overcome
1571
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:15,920
conditioning.
We can't always do it.
1572
01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:19,040
But there is more to human
behaviour than just the BF
1573
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:20,760
Skinner conditioning and
response.
1574
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:23,320
That's not all we are.
We aren't just input output
1575
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:25,320
machines.
We can have, we can do something
1576
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:27,320
about that.
We can interrupt those
1577
01:17:28,480 --> 01:17:31,760
conditioned, enculturated,
impulsive responses to things,
1578
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:34,720
even if they're things that were
driven into us as children.
1579
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:38,000
Some people can overcome those.
I think everyone can overcome
1580
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:41,480
them at least a bit.
And, and, and not feel quite so
1581
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:44,800
enslaved and not actually be
quite so enslaved to these
1582
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:48,480
conditioned responses to things
and to that mentality of
1583
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:52,360
pessimism and catastrophizing
and falling down the emotional
1584
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:54,240
wells.
You know, the spirals that I was
1585
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:57,400
talking about before, they're
just as much individual
1586
01:17:57,400 --> 01:18:00,320
psychological, emotional spirals
as they are on mass.
1587
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:03,360
On the scale of a country of
three, 400 million people like
1588
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:06,040
you live in, it's the same
thing.
1589
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:07,960
It's all the same feelings,
ultimately.
1590
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:12,800
So we have to recognize that and
we have to try and do something
1591
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:15,080
about it.
And it isn't always possible,
1592
01:18:15,440 --> 01:18:19,680
but it is often possible.
Yeah, yeah, beautiful.
1593
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:23,680
I want to, I want to, I want to
actually end with the last, you
1594
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:26,000
know, 10-12 minutes that we got
if that's OK.
1595
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:28,920
I want to act.
I want to talk to you a little
1596
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:33,840
bit about the separation of
power and influence that you
1597
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:38,640
think because I we know and, and
this is not with how just with
1598
01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:42,040
Hollywood, this is with anything
that is regulated.
1599
01:18:42,440 --> 01:18:46,240
It feels like has a revolving
door with industry insiders and
1600
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:49,160
the regulators.
And I, you know, and like you
1601
01:18:49,160 --> 01:18:52,080
mentioned, you know, before we,
we mentioned our buddy Rich, was
1602
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:53,680
it Rich Klein?
Is that who that his name?
1603
01:18:55,000 --> 01:19:02,200
You know, he seems to be one of
these type of examples, but do
1604
01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:05,840
you think the government, how
much of A distinction do you
1605
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:08,920
think that there should be, for
example, Right.
1606
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:11,160
And I know that this and I'm
sure this does happen because I
1607
01:19:11,160 --> 01:19:15,160
saw this on the site films that
go ahead without CIA approval or
1608
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:17,440
without government approval.
They want you to change this and
1609
01:19:17,440 --> 01:19:18,960
they push back on a script about
this.
1610
01:19:19,480 --> 01:19:22,120
How much control do you think?
Do you think they should say,
1611
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:24,320
hey, we'd like for you to do
this, but do whatever you want
1612
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:26,480
or it's important that you do
this because of it.
1613
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:28,600
It it affects XY and Z
situation.
1614
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:31,760
Do you think that there should
be some kind of relationship or
1615
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:33,120
you think it should be
completely fractured?
1616
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:37,960
I mean, ultimately I'm
anarchist, so I don't think the
1617
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:40,280
federal government or any kind
of government should exist.
1618
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:45,920
But within the existing
superstructure and paradigm, I
1619
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:49,160
think it I think that the
relationship is, it's fine to
1620
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:51,880
have some kind of access
relationship to these assets,
1621
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:53,880
but they are publicly paid for
assets.
1622
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:57,000
So why should these agencies be
allowed to deny them to film
1623
01:19:57,000 --> 01:19:59,360
makers?
Because that's the real power
1624
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:01,520
that they have.
Sometimes films on TV shows
1625
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:04,120
don't even get made because not
because the government
1626
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,040
necessarily censors and blocks
them, though that does happen,
1627
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:09,680
but just because they deny them
access to something.
1628
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:13,800
If you, you can't make a.
Had a note a drama set on a
1629
01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:16,680
aircraft carrier without access
to an aircraft carrier.
1630
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:18,840
I mean technically I suppose you
can try and do the whole thing
1631
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:22,240
with CGI, but it looks schlocky
and digitized and sooner or
1632
01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:24,560
later people will notice and
lose interest because it looks
1633
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:26,640
like everything else.
The real thing always looks a
1634
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:29,440
bit better.
So if you can't get access to
1635
01:20:29,440 --> 01:20:32,400
that aircraft carrier, you can't
make your film or TV show set on
1636
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:34,960
it.
It's that thing.
1637
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:38,000
It's that they have the power of
denial and the power of softer
1638
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:41,160
or harder censorship, depending
on exactly which project and
1639
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:43,520
what relationship they have with
the film makers and so on and so
1640
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:45,160
on.
It isn't always a uniform
1641
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:48,680
process on every single project
they work on, but it is that
1642
01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:51,280
power of denial, that power of
refusing access.
1643
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:54,920
Why shouldn't film makers who
pay their taxes and all the rest
1644
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:56,840
of it, be able to access these
things?
1645
01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:59,320
All they're saying is we want to
go and shoot a couple of scenes
1646
01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:02,960
outside CIA headquarters or FBI
headquarters or whatever it
1647
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:05,040
might be.
Why should those agencies be
1648
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:06,800
allowed to turn them down
because they don't like their
1649
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,360
content?
That is actually a denial of
1650
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:12,360
critical speech or free speech
against the government in some
1651
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:14,680
ways.
That was if you call that a
1652
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:18,680
first, that would be that would
be like a free speech that that
1653
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:21,800
that you're prohibiting free
speech at that point is your, is
1654
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:25,240
your, is your take on that.
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I agree with
1655
01:21:25,480 --> 01:21:28,320
the, I'm not a constitutional
law expert, of course, but I
1656
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:31,480
agree with some of the people
who, who are, who've said they
1657
01:21:31,480 --> 01:21:33,840
consider this a violation of the
1st Amendment.
1658
01:21:34,160 --> 01:21:37,880
And so why, why should film
makers have their have their
1659
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:41,120
rights violated in that way?
Why should audiences have their
1660
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:44,320
rights to be able to hear this
kind of thing or see this kind
1661
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:46,880
of perspective on a screen or
however they're consuming it?
1662
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:51,240
Why should they be denied that,
especially when the number one
1663
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:53,800
reason why things get rejected
and denied is that they're
1664
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:55,840
critical of the government in
some fashion.
1665
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:58,440
It's not necessarily they're
critical of an individual
1666
01:21:58,440 --> 01:21:59,680
president or something like
that.
1667
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:02,640
It's, it's the government in
general, it's the institutions
1668
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:04,760
themselves.
That's what they're really
1669
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:07,200
protecting.
And I think that's wrong.
1670
01:22:07,760 --> 01:22:10,440
I, I think it's deeply wrong.
So if you are going to have this
1671
01:22:10,440 --> 01:22:14,400
sort of relationship, it has to
be 1 where you can't reject a
1672
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:17,080
request due to content.
You might be able to reject a
1673
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:19,360
request because someone comes to
you and says I want, you know,
1674
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:24,320
115M1 Abrams tanks and you just
don't have a spare 115 tanks on
1675
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:26,240
that day.
I get that sometimes
1676
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:29,480
administratively people are do
get a bit carried away and ask
1677
01:22:29,480 --> 01:22:33,040
for the impossible, but if
they're asking for something
1678
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:35,440
that loads of other film makers
have had access to but you just
1679
01:22:35,440 --> 01:22:37,920
don't like their script, I don't
think that's a justifiable
1680
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:41,080
reason to deny them at all.
And so it's either access for
1681
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:43,120
everyone or or access for no
one.
1682
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,200
Yeah, yeah, that's a great
point.
1683
01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:49,280
I couldn't believe I just
watched Homeland for the first
1684
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:52,760
time this year and I could not
believe that that that show was
1685
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:58,040
able to get made even.
I mean, and, and, and, and, and
1686
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:01,720
according to your site, it
looked like it got a lot of
1687
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:05,920
green lights from various
government bodies, including the
1688
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:08,640
CIA.
But that movie does not that
1689
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:12,040
show rather does not make the
American government or American
1690
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:16,240
history look very good at all.
And I am shocked with how far
1691
01:23:16,240 --> 01:23:20,440
they're willing to go as far as,
you know, this, these deep CIA
1692
01:23:20,440 --> 01:23:23,840
agents or the CIA going row
against the president or, or
1693
01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:28,360
even this the drone campaign and
everything that I didn't know
1694
01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:31,400
any history about that.
Even my, my, my parents who I
1695
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:34,040
told them to watch the show,
they didn't know anything about
1696
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:36,160
that either.
And it kind of highlights a
1697
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:38,760
really not great period of
American history that I'm
1698
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:41,600
shocked that the agencies kind
of let the show, the showrunners
1699
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:44,040
get away with for eight seasons
or however long it was.
1700
01:23:45,480 --> 01:23:49,040
If if this was the US military,
they wouldn't have. the US
1701
01:23:49,040 --> 01:23:52,960
military is obsessed with
positive image imagery of itself
1702
01:23:53,480 --> 01:23:55,880
the CIA seems to actually quite
enjoy.
1703
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:59,000
I think it's partly because the
CIA is sort of half stocked with
1704
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:01,560
statistic psychopaths.
More.
1705
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:03,320
More than half.
More than half, yeah.
1706
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:08,960
Maybe more than maybe more, but
they they seem to they seem to
1707
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:12,720
enjoy this dark image of the
CIA, this torturing, drone
1708
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:16,960
striking, murderous, completely
corrupt, win at all costs means
1709
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:20,480
to an end kind of approach to
the CIA because it scares
1710
01:24:20,480 --> 01:24:23,800
people, it intimidates people.
It means that people don't want
1711
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:26,040
to fuck with the CIA.
It mean, it might even mean that
1712
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:28,640
the, the Russians or the Chinese
or whoever else might be
1713
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:31,280
watching this overseas and
thinking actually, if, if the
1714
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:34,680
CIA is kind of openly admitting
on a, a popular network TV show
1715
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:37,960
that they do this stuff, maybe
we shouldn't mess with them
1716
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:40,080
quite as much as we were
thinking of messing with them.
1717
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:43,160
There is a, it's, it's like I
was saying about positive
1718
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:45,480
reinforcement versus negative
reinforcement.
1719
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:48,800
The the shows like, I don't
know, Jack Ryan, Amazon's Jack
1720
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:51,760
Ryan that offers generally
speaking, a very positive
1721
01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:54,120
reinforcement of the CI as
image.
1722
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:58,960
Homeland in some ways is much
more negative in in a lot of
1723
01:24:58,960 --> 01:25:00,880
places.
I think it's a fantastic piece
1724
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:02,720
of television in most of its
seasons.
1725
01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:05,360
Some of them some of them aren't
so good as others, but some of
1726
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:06,600
them are absolutely great.
TVI.
1727
01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:08,880
Mean it flips the whole war of
terror on its head.
1728
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:11,920
It's, it's, it's really the
whole Middle Eastern war.
1729
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:15,680
At least it flips on its head.
And it really, it really brings
1730
01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:17,120
up a lot.
And it's funny because around,
1731
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:19,440
because just a couple months
earlier, I was really doing a
1732
01:25:19,440 --> 01:25:23,040
lot of homework and finding out
what our, you know, how America
1733
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:25,640
kind of caused a lot of the War
on Terror to ourselves.
1734
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:29,320
And this brought that all to
light.
1735
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:31,840
And I'm like, but if you're
doing this, Americans aren't
1736
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:34,040
going to trust or people
watching this aren't going to
1737
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:37,120
trust agendas anymore.
And I understand what you're
1738
01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:41,040
saying about the about trying
to, you know, flex perhaps, or
1739
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:44,440
to show almost like almost in a
psychopathic way.
1740
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:47,760
Hey, we're not even apologizing
the way that we do things and
1741
01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:50,680
you better watch out.
But that's not a really good way
1742
01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:53,680
to make friends and at a time.
And and and this is obviously we
1743
01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:55,640
could we can't start this with 5
minutes left.
1744
01:25:55,640 --> 01:26:00,240
But as China with a with a
massive economic and social and
1745
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:03,360
political is becoming a huge
force.
1746
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:05,000
It's over.
It's absolutely overtaking
1747
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:10,320
American majority of the world.
I don't think that it's really
1748
01:26:10,320 --> 01:26:12,080
beneficial to make ourselves
look like a bunch of
1749
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:17,800
psychopaths, you know?
You, you, you wouldn't because
1750
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:22,920
you're not psychopathic.
But I do wonder it is a bit like
1751
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:25,240
the the psychopathic serial
killer who when they're
1752
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:29,200
eventually caught, just
confesses or other other
1753
01:26:29,200 --> 01:26:31,360
psychopathic predators.
When they're caught, quite a lot
1754
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:34,200
of them confess because one,
they don't really give a shit.
1755
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:37,240
They're just cold blooded and
they don't actually care that
1756
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:39,640
much what happens to them.
But also some of them like to
1757
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:40,880
boast.
Some of them have that
1758
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:43,840
narcissistic quality of like,
yeah, I killed 17 people and
1759
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:45,680
it's taken you 20 years to catch
me.
1760
01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:48,640
They actually want to boast
about what what it is that
1761
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:50,520
they've done.
So there may be an element of
1762
01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:53,000
that in some of the CI as
Hollywood PR.
1763
01:26:53,440 --> 01:26:56,760
And I do think intimidation
propaganda is a real thing.
1764
01:26:56,880 --> 01:26:58,840
They want us to be scared of
them.
1765
01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:02,880
If you look at something like
The Good Shepherd, which is this
1766
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:06,280
quite conspiratorial CIA
sponsored film where it suggests
1767
01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:09,800
that a lot of the CIA originates
in the Skull and Bones Yale
1768
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:13,640
secret society or semi semi
secret fratity, whatever you
1769
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:17,040
want to call it.
Sorry, excuse me.
1770
01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:19,120
A very a very much plays up to
that.
1771
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:22,040
I don't know mythology.
How about that myth about the
1772
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:22,960
CIA?
Is it a myth?
1773
01:27:22,960 --> 01:27:24,720
Is it a reality?
People couldn't again, make
1774
01:27:24,720 --> 01:27:27,440
their own judgments on that.
But there is quite a lot of dark
1775
01:27:27,440 --> 01:27:30,800
stuff in CIA sponsored films
that when I'm watching it, I'm
1776
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:33,560
thinking there's no way the
military or the FBI would put up
1777
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:35,280
with this.
They would only want they would
1778
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:38,120
want a much more positive image
and maybe a tiny, tiny little
1779
01:27:38,120 --> 01:27:41,640
bit of, you know, one guy goes
rogue and does something wrong.
1780
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:43,840
They can tolerate that.
But the notion of the whole
1781
01:27:43,840 --> 01:27:46,280
institution is somehow corrupt
or terrifying.
1782
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:49,000
They won't do.
They just won't, won't accept
1783
01:27:49,400 --> 01:27:51,920
the CIA.
On the other hand, they seem to
1784
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:57,800
see the benefit of both the more
happy, positive PR, the happy
1785
01:27:57,800 --> 01:28:01,400
positive image of the CIA, and
the negative, scary, terrifying
1786
01:28:01,480 --> 01:28:03,800
image of the CIA.
They actually seem to see value
1787
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:07,680
in both, which makes you wonder
what the hell they they're
1788
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:10,000
really up to.
And also what the hell is it
1789
01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:12,000
that they do that we don't
already know about?
1790
01:28:12,160 --> 01:28:13,680
Because that's the thing.
It's like once you're caught
1791
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:16,680
drone bombing and torturing and
all the rest of it, what what
1792
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:18,480
option do you have?
Do you then try and put the
1793
01:28:18,480 --> 01:28:20,920
genie back in the bottle and
convince people actually, we're,
1794
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:23,520
we're good, We didn't actually
do this, this sort of thing that
1795
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:25,680
much?
Or do you try to normalize it?
1796
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:27,720
Do you try to make people accept
it?
1797
01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:30,960
And I think Homeland from a
propaganda point of view, is a
1798
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:34,480
massive normalization project.
It made people, you know, it
1799
01:28:34,480 --> 01:28:36,880
makes people more cynical, makes
people just go, oh, well, this
1800
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:39,080
is this is what happens.
There's nothing we can do about
1801
01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:40,640
it.
This is just the CIA is too
1802
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:43,080
powerful and too evil and too
terrifying.
1803
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:46,760
And so it's kind of exciting to
watch in a spy drama, but in
1804
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:49,040
terms of the real world, I'm not
going to challenge this because
1805
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:51,600
then they might drone bomb or
hack me or torture me or, or
1806
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:54,600
something else.
So it does scare people.
1807
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:57,360
Again, the negative images do
scare people.
1808
01:28:57,360 --> 01:29:00,240
And that that is the only
rationale I can offer for why
1809
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:04,240
the CIA gets involved in films
and TV shows that don't in any
1810
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:07,720
way really portray them, but not
very much portray them very
1811
01:29:07,720 --> 01:29:10,360
positively.
I got you, I got you.
1812
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:13,040
I think that's a perfect place
to leave it, Tom.
1813
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:18,240
This was a ton of fun.
You're such a pleasant, such a
1814
01:29:18,240 --> 01:29:20,320
pleasant person to talk to.
Thank you so much for the time.
1815
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:23,160
I hope we can maybe do this
again because I have AI have a
1816
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:26,040
whole list of notes over here
that we didn't get a bunch of
1817
01:29:26,040 --> 01:29:29,120
it, but but I hope we could do
this again in a couple of months
1818
01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:31,840
maybe.
Thank you so much for your time.
1819
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:36,360
This is so much fun and I'm
going to post your whatever you
1820
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:39,040
would like for me to share as
far as your website and your
1821
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:40,720
socials.
You don't have social or you
1822
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:43,160
don't use it very often, but
your website and your contact
1823
01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:46,800
and I'll be happy to and I and I
would love to talk again and be
1824
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:48,560
in touch.
Oh, sure.
1825
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:50,720
I mean, you've got my e-mail.
Let's do this again sometime.
1826
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:52,160
And it's been great talking to
you.
1827
01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:54,840
I really enjoyed this.
I think we've looked at this
1828
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:57,480
from a a different perspective
than a lot of the interviews and
1829
01:29:57,480 --> 01:29:59,160
things that I've done.
So yeah, let's have another
1830
01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:01,320
conversation sometime.
I'd love it.
1831
01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:03,680
Awesome.
OK, well, feel good again.
1832
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:06,720
Cheers to your health, good
health to both of us and lots of
1833
01:30:06,720 --> 01:30:09,080
lots of lots of good work
together, hopefully in the
1834
01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:10,520
future.
Thank you so much, Tom.
1835
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:12,200
Take care man.
Take care, yes?
1836
01:30:12,480 --> 01:30:12,680
Bye.