Entertainment Series 12: Marc Eliot / Jack Nicholson / 60-70’s Hollywood/ Walt Disney & the FBI

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

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Mark Elliott, thank you so much
for coming onto the show.

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How are you?
Fine, thanks.

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I really appreciate you making
time, especially because you

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mentioned how busy you are.
And looking at your library,

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it's very clear how busy you
keep yourself.

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You do an astounding amount of
work on a really, really

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wonderfully wide array of
topics.

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And I just want to say, as a
podcast host that tries to keep

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up with that same spirit, I
really appreciate all the work

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that you're doing and that
you've been doing.

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Well, thanks.
It's a, you know, it's a

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lifetime of work.
It seems like it.

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It seems like it.
What were you?

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What, what got you what, what
were you most passionate about

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when I got you started?
Because you write about

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politics, you write about music,
you write about cinema and

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actors and and the entertainment
world.

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What got you started?
Well, originally I was in the

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theatre.
I was an actor for many years as

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a child.
I just a lot of TV and live

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theatre.
I lived in Greenwich Village in

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the 60s and I fell in with the
folk music crowd and became very

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friendly with a lot of a lot of
the young, still unknown

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performers, especially
Sterloaks, David Blue, Tim

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Hardin, people like that who
were on the precipice of

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becoming quite famous and still
are.

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I became especially close to
Phil Oakes.

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He was a topical folk singer,
very charismatic and brilliant.

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Brilliant singer and songwriter.
He had a had a beautiful voice.

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If you've never heard him, you
should do yourself a favor and

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Google him and you'll be
pleasantly surprised.

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Anyway, after I struggled
through undergraduate school at

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the CCNY City University of New
York, majoring in liberal arts

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and, you know, kind of growing a
little bit out of theater,

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mostly because I didn't like, I
didn't like 2 things.

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I didn't like the environment
and I didn't like the scripts.

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I thought most of the stuff that
came my way was kind of junky

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and predictable and mediocre.
So I was thinking about making

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writing more of my profession,
which I had always been writing.

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I had been writing since I was a
kid, but never really thought

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about it as something to do
instead of acting.

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While I was at City College, I
took a film course as an

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elective and I I took it because
I thought, well here's 3 credits

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that I don't have to do anything
for and I'll watch a movie, get

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3 credits and get the hell out
of there as soon as I can.

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I made a similar decision.
Yeah, I think everybody did at

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some point or another.
You look for those courses.

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Did you go to the movies?
Yes.

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OK, you get a name.
The course was taught by a

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fellow named Herman G Weinberg.
Herman G Weinberg had written a

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biography of Joseph
Monsternberg.

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People may not know who he is by
name, but Sternberg was a

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director of the Blue Angel very
famous movie with Marlena

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Dietrich.
He had discovered Dietrich while

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she was still in Germany as a
kind of a nightclub singer,

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dancehall girl.
Whatever she was, he fell in

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love with her.
This is Sternberg and he made 8

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movies with her and each of them
was less successful as they were

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made.
The more his obsession with her

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grew, the less disciplined the
films became and more

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specialized.
You know, he would shoot her

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through gauze, he would do all
kind of special effects.

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He showed all 8 films.
That was the course.

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It was.
It was Sternberg.

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Dietrich was the name of the
course, and for me it was an

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absolute revelation that film,
one film of a director, was

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related to another film of the
same director.

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That in order to understand one
film, you really had to see all

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the films.
That opened up a whole new way

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of thinking about film, writing
about film and acting in film.

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There were It just kind of
opened everything like a flower

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in the spring.
I finally graduated from City

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College with ABA.
You might see hanging back there

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somewhere.
And then I was determined to

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become a writer about film.
But my hero at the time, one of

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my heroes, was Andrew Cyrus.
Andrew Cyrus, for those who

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don't know, brought or tourism a
French theory of film criticism

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to America, and it made him the
preeminent film critic of the

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70s, eighties and so on.
But mainly in the 70s when we

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had a second called the American
New Wave, I guess you could say

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those wonderful films as
Scorsese, De Palma, Mike

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Nichols, all those great
independently produced movies as

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the studio system was dying out.
Anyway, a friend of mine came to

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me and said, you know, you ought
to get your, your degrees, your

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graduate degrees, because when
you're writing doesn't work out,

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you can then you can then teach.
I said, are you crazy?

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What do you mean by when my
writing?

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Of course it's going to work
out.

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No, no, you better do it.
So I said, I have, I don't want

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to spend another minute in
inside an institution.

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Then he came back and he said,
you know, I'm, I'm on the board

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of Columbia Presbyterian
Hospital in New York, in

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Manhattan, he said.
And Columbia University is

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starting a film program, a
graduate film program that you

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should, you should get in there
and pick up those degrees and

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something you like.
That's I really I.

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And the head of the program is
going to be Andrew Sarris.

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Well, that changed everything.
When I realized I had the chance

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to study with him.
Reluctantly, I applied to

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Colombia.
I hadn't even taken the GRE, so

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I had no I had an OK record of
grades and all.

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I didn't think I had a chance,
but they were.

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It was their first year.
They wanted students.

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They were trying to compete with
NYU that had a big film school.

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Yeah, very prolific.
And my friend who was on the

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board somehow managed to get a
fellowship for me to go.

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So in effect, I was going for
free.

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And so I, you know, I bit my
tongue and I went back to school

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and spent about seven years at
Columbia getting my MFA,

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teaching there, doing my PhD,
all of which I I had no reason

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to get because I never planned
on teaching while I was in my

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after I took my oral exams for
my doctorate, Sill Oaks

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committed suicide.
He had by that time become one

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of my best friends.
We have made a movie together.

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But previous July he had said,
hey, Mark, I want you to make a

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film with me.
I sure.

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What's the film?
The farewell performance of Phil

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Oakes.
He said, we're going to shoot it

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down at Dirtys, Folk City, big
famous folk club where Bob Dylan

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began.
And he said, can you get it

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together in a couple of days
with your friends in Columbia?

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And I'll, he said, I'll back,
you know, all the expenses.

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So I went, I went to see all my
friends, not so much at

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Columbia, but I had friends at
NPR.

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A lot of my friends worked on
Sesame Street.

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So they had cameras, they had
film or video, they had sound

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equipment, and they just brought
everything down to Folk City.

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We sat up for three days, made
the movie, and you can tell that

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Phil was not well, I mean, to
say the least.

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He, he, he had some mental
issues that eventually won the

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battle.
Six months later, he he was dead

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of his own family.
So that really I've changed

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everything for me on, on a lot
of levels.

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First of all, the loss of a
great friend, a major influence

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on my creative side, and someone
who had opened up so many ways

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of approaching subjects that I
really hadn't thought about

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before.
Combined with Andrew Sarris, who

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became my mentor in film.
So I felt in an odd way

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reloaded.
I went to tell you a quick funny

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story.
I went to I decided to write

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Phil's life.
So the most I had published were

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a couple of small articles and a
couple of college newspaper

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pieces.
I had become the film critic for

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Penthouse magazine to a crazy
quirk of fake, and the only

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thing I can say about that is
they threw tremendous Christmas

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parties.
Anyway, I bought a book.

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There was a book that they used
to sell in bookstores and

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remember bookstores.
I still frequent them every now

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and then.
Yeah, they're like ancient

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relics.
They're like Ozamandias.

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There was a book how to get your
book published and you could buy

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it and it had no value, had no
absolutely no value.

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You get a typewriter, you know,
it was that kind of thing.

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But at the end of the book, they
always had a list that came out

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every year of agents, literary
agents.

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And that's why everybody bought
the book.

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So I went through the list of
agents.

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The only agency that I recognize
was the William Morris Agency,

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because everybody knew William
Morris Agency.

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You know, all our grandparents
had people who worked at the

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William Morris Agency in
Barnville and all that, and at

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William Morris.
CA didn't exist yet, right?

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What didn't exist?
The CAA did not exist yet right

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there was.
Still work came out anymore,

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Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

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That's.
Right.

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It was a rebel.
It was a.

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Michael Ovitz.
Yeah, Mike Obitz, who had begun

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it.
William Morris.

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So did you sweat?
About him, he's a cool dude.

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He's I know my therefore I
wouldn't be able to write.

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David Geffen came out of William
Morris also.

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Yes, yes, yes.
Elliott Roberts, who who

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partnered up with who I knew as
a kid.

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Elliott grew up a block away
from me.

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Wow.
Elliott Rabinowitz when I knew

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anyway.
So in those days, we're talking

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about I guess, 7879.
In those days, you could still

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do what I did.
I took a subway up to Midtown,

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where William Morris was.
I walked in, you know, they had

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where they were in The MGM
building and they had a security

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desk in a lobby.
And I said, I want to see.

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I want to go up to William
Morris in the writing division.

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OK.
They said, take the elevator to

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the 16th floor.
Those were those days.

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So I did.
I went up to the 16th floor.

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The elevators opened.
There was a reception desk.

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And that pretty young girl was
there.

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And I I said, yeah, I'd like to
see an agent.

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She said, well, do you have an
appointment?

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I know, but I I have a project.
She said, well, let me see.

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I don't know if anybody will see
and see what, Oh, we have a, we

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have an agent who it's really
his first day and he has no

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clients.
Maybe he'll see you.

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So she called them up, you know,
buzzed them and he said, all

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right, send them in.
So I went in and how do you do?

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And sat down and he said, what
have you got?

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He said, well, I'm going to
write a book about Phil Oaks.

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Never heard of it.
I sorry.

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Chill Oaks, everybody else but
you.

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You're the guy who hasn't heard
of him.

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And I talked to him for about
1/2 hour.

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Is it folk singer, 60s Greenwich
Village, Bob Dylan?

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You know, all the all the butts.
At the end of the half hour he

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said all right, let me think it
over and call me tomorrow.

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So I left.
Wow, going back to that book,

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how to get your book published?
Besides agents, they had a list

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of editors.
So in the film that I made, the

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opening I wrote, I wrote an
introduction to the book.

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The only part I wrote based on
the opening of the show, What

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went on the tumultuous night at
the Folk City.

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And I had sent it out to I think
it was 39 editors and they all

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came back one by one.
No, no, I got a letter from one.

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I said this is a nicely done but
not for us.

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So I thought, well, I called
them up and I said hi, Mark

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Kelly.
Who I say I wrote this, I sent

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you a letter of Phil Oaks thing
and you sent the thing back,

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meaning not for us.
What do you mean by that?

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It means we don't want it.
We hung the phone.

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You know the lessons that you
learned.

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And finally I got AI got a
letter from a pub from an editor

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saying, look, you have to have
an agent.

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You can't just send stuff over
the trance and nobody even reads

225
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:15,760
it.
It's, it's illegal to read it.

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00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,800
Get yourself an agent.
So that's when I went to the

227
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,680
agent page.
That's when I went to William

228
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,360
Morris.
The next day I was about to call

229
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,840
Mel my age, no burger, and my
phone rang.

230
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:31,760
So I thought it was William
Morris.

231
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:37,640
I, I picked it up and on the
other end I heard, hi, my name

232
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:42,320
is so and so.
We've had your Phil Oakes

233
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,520
proposal here for a couple of
months.

234
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:50,440
That's how long this has taken.
And we can publish it.

235
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,720
If you don't want too much
money, we'll, we'll take a

236
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,160
chance on it.
And I said to him, you'll have

237
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,400
to talk to my agent.
Well, who's your agent?

238
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,160
I said, oh, William Morris and I
gave him Mel's number.

239
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,040
I hung the phone up and I called
Mel immediately.

240
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,880
Let me talk to Mel.
Mel gets on the phone.

241
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,920
Who is this?
And I said Mark Elliott, I was

242
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,839
just there yesterday.
I can't.

243
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:18,560
Phil Hawks.
I don't.

244
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,960
I don't know.
I can't do.

245
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,400
I said, look, I just got a call
from Doubleday.

246
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,160
They want to publish the book.
And I told them you were my

247
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,000
agent.
Hop into a cab.

248
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,400
Come right up.
I'll be waiting outside.

249
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,000
I'll have the contractor sign it
on the taxi door.

250
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,120
And then we'll go up and I'll
call this guy and I'll get you

251
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:43,000
the deal.
He'll get me the deal.

252
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,280
I I got him the deal.
His first.

253
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:51,320
His first deal.
So sure enough, while we go up,

254
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:56,520
he calls the John was the
Fellows now a kid, a young,

255
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,400
young kid who tried for three
months to get Doubleday to agree

256
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,880
to publish the book.
A Doubleday was the last family

257
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,200
owned publisher, which is the
only way you could get a book

258
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,080
like Phillips published.
The corporation would be near.

259
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:14,120
And by the end of the day, I had
a book deal.

260
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:19,880
I was a writer, published
writer, and that's how I became

261
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,160
a professional writer.
You couldn't do it today.

262
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,920
When I tell young people that
story, they, you know, I have a

263
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,560
friend who's been trying to
publish a book for 10 years and

264
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,360
they can't even get to an agent.
You know, they, it's so

265
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,160
difficult today.
An agent won't take you unless

266
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,600
you're published.
You can't get published unless

267
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,040
you have an agent.
It's a very, very difficult

268
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,600
crazy field.
And now with AI, it's even

269
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:53,280
tougher.
I did, I did the Phil Oaks book.

270
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,680
Doubleday didn't know really
what they had.

271
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,160
Not so much me as a book about
Phil, Phil's brother Michael

272
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:10,120
Oakes, who became a well known
source of photographs.

273
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,800
Michael Oakes archives.
He just passed away a few months

274
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,320
ago.
Opened every door.

275
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,960
Anybody I wanted to talk to.
I moved out to LA, lived with

276
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:26,440
Michael and spent six or seven
months researching that book.

277
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,880
When I finally got it all
together and the book was

278
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,880
published, nobody at Doubleday
thought this was going to sell

279
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:41,240
10 copies.
The book came out the first

280
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,800
week.
The New York Times Sunday Book

281
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,000
Review did a half page of the
book.

282
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:54,760
It wasn't a rave, but it wasn't
a it wasn't a bad review.

283
00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,320
It was a pretty good review.
That review made my career.

284
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,440
Yeah.
To be in the Sunday book review

285
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:08,360
with a half page for a first
time writer that made my career.

286
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,840
The next day, Monday, the
publisher called me up.

287
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:14,560
Come on, we want to have lunch
with you.

288
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,960
And what do you want to do next?
In our way, we'd love to sign

289
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,880
you for a whole.
Everything changed.

290
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,600
And from then to now, I've never
really been out of work.

291
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,840
That's incredible.
That's how I became a writer.

292
00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:35,720
I love that there's so much,
there's so much about that

293
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,920
that's so wonderful.
And I think that from my own

294
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,080
experience, at least the podcast
world, because similar to the

295
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,720
publishing world, I would
imagine every time Dick and

296
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,600
Harry has a podcast or wants to
start a podcast, they want

297
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,560
something to do with it, right?
So you got to do something to to

298
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,560
stand out and show that you're a
little different.

299
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,920
And one of the things that I
realized is that everyone's got

300
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,240
to find a way to like, if you
want to make it, you have to be

301
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,280
creative about being scrappy and
you have to be creative about

302
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,480
about like forcing opportunity
and really, you know, and almost

303
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,440
making your own luck.
Like things happen.

304
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,640
The more effort I found that I
put in, the more that things

305
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,800
fall into place without any of
my intention of it falling into

306
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,640
place that way.
I don't even know what I kind of

307
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,040
am intending for it just all,
you know, I just know that I'm

308
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,040
putting in the work and then
things are kind of happening as

309
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,920
it goes along.
And I feel like that's because I

310
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,600
think everyone that tries to
stick to a formula ends up

311
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,320
creating this kind of enormous
backlog of everyone trying to do

312
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,040
the same thing in the same
system is trying to vet out, you

313
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,280
know, everyone that's playing
this, that that that particular

314
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,360
version of the game.
But if you're able, if you're if

315
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:42,640
you're able to circumvent it in
some kind of creative way, like

316
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,360
what you did, I mean, what you
did was really just you, you

317
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:48,640
just sold yourself and you
managed to convince someone to,

318
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,120
you know, to both people to bite
at the same time, you know,

319
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:54,640
again, for to I guess sounds
like serendipity, but it's I'm

320
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,600
sure no, it's in no part without
the effort that you exerted for

321
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,360
months to try to make it happen,
you know?

322
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:03,040
Yeah, I mean, it's serendipity,
but it isn't and it isn't.

323
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,440
I sent out those 39.
Sure, that's my point.

324
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:11,640
And I didn't know any better
that you can't walk into an

325
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,640
agency.
I just said I'm going to go up

326
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,440
there.
Why not?

327
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,040
It was, you know, the times were
different.

328
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,560
Aggression.
Some of it came out of

329
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,400
ignorance.
You know, I didn't know any

330
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,040
better.
When you I say you tell people

331
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,440
today that story, how did you
can't do that?

332
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,440
You have to do this and that.
Well, I didn't read the book,

333
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:32,840
so.
Yeah.

334
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,640
And.
That's why I'm able to make it.

335
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,480
I love that.
And I also thought that anybody

336
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,080
who heard the name Phil Oakes
would immediately want that

337
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,240
book.
Little did I know you know how

338
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,200
uninterested most people were in
publishing about Phil.

339
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,960
Right, right.
There's so many places to go,

340
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,800
but I, I, there, there's a
couple of topics that I, I want

341
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,040
to dive into and, and, and
there's two that I care the most

342
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,560
to get into and that is
Springsteen and Disney.

343
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,520
Those are my, those are the two
that I, I think that I know the

344
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,480
most about.
So I'd like to have a in depth

345
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,400
conversation, but I also want to
talk about Jack Nicholson

346
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,920
because you weren't, you spent a
lot of time talking about film

347
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,520
and, and the film world in the
60s and 70s.

348
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,080
And there's a great book that
I've referenced in the podcast

349
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,880
before called Easy Rider, Raging
Bull about, yeah.

350
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,360
And about, about the, the, the,
the development of the creative

351
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:37,560
power over time when, as it
pertains to movies and film and

352
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:42,240
you and the 60s and the 70s were
the directors era and you know,

353
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,040
with Scorsese and Spielberg and
George Lucas and, you know, I

354
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,800
mean, and then everyone was kind
of making the way you describe

355
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,440
it, these art films that were
turned into, they were really

356
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,720
character driven and real
narrative driven.

357
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,080
I, I, I, I've read, you know,
accounts of everyone scoffing at

358
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,120
Star Wars because it was this
big commercial, you know, space

359
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:05,920
cowboy movie and that was so
different from what mean Streets

360
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,000
would be or something like that.
Well, it wasn't.

361
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,320
It wasn't just because it was a
space film.

362
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,280
What happened was just to.
Please.

363
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,240
Give my view.
I I think that Peter Biskins

364
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,440
stuff is is for the most part
pretty good sometimes.

365
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:26,800
Hey everyone real quick if
you're enjoying the show, click

366
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,720
subscribe and rate the show. 5
stars helps a ton.

367
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,920
Thanks so much.
Less good than others, but he,

368
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,680
he know, he, he's never really
been in the business.

369
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,360
He, he looks at the business.
What happened with Spielberg and

370
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,000
Lucas is that they, they didn't
want to be independent film

371
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,840
makers.
They wanted to be studio film

372
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,920
makers.
You know, Spielberg's walking

373
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:59,400
into was it Fox or it was Fox
taking an office and, you know,

374
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,200
running into Lou Wasserman and
nobody knowing that he wasn't

375
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,280
there.
These were guys who wanted who

376
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,000
grew up on studio movies.
They didn't grow up on

377
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,760
independent films like Scorsese
did.

378
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,760
Scorsese grew up on Italian
films he saw on Channel 9 in New

379
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,400
York.
His parents watched every night,

380
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:26,040
black and white, near realism
Spielberg and Lucas.

381
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:32,600
Lucas after, after Star Wars,
no, after American Graffiti came

382
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:39,760
out, came to Columbia University
where I was at the time, and he

383
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:46,160
and his wife, his then wife
Marsha, sat in, ran a class and

384
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,280
somebody said, what do you want
to do next after American

385
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,920
Graffiti, which is basically an
independent film done by Zoetro.

386
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,800
That's a great movie.
Yeah, great movie.

387
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,360
Yeah, Francis Coppola produced
again.

388
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:05,280
So he said, I want to, I want to
do Flash Gordon.

389
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,560
Now, if you're of a certain age,
you grew up with Flash Gordon,

390
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:16,080
Saturday mornings on TV with the
Buster Krab serial version.

391
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,920
If you were my age, you watched
it in the movie theaters every

392
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,280
Saturday morning, and you
worried all week, how is Flash

393
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,360
going to get out of this?
And then you went back and you

394
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:30,520
forgot that they changed the
thing a little bit so he could

395
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,400
survive.
That's what Lucas wanted to do.

396
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,200
He wanted to be a studio.
Gotcha.

397
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,280
There are different paths.
There are different paths.

398
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,440
Yeah, he he independence didn't
mean anything to him or to

399
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,240
Spielberg.
Freedom did.

400
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,640
And they thought that freedom,
that they could get freedom in

401
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,640
the studio system because all
the heroes were directors who

402
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,440
worked in the in the system.
So as but by then the system had

403
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,280
collapsed totally.
It had become ATV distribution

404
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,360
it.
Didn't mean so much money,

405
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:07,360
right?
Because TV was making so much

406
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:10,200
money.
Well, it was it was making

407
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:15,080
money, but they no longer had to
put the money in to feature

408
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,680
films and release one film every
month.

409
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,840
They could just grind it out,
same set, same actors, you know,

410
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,200
long term contracts, residuals,
run it a million times so.

411
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,960
Law and Order comes to mind.
Let's Yeah.

412
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:33,880
Grey's Anatomy comes to mind.
Survivor comes on.

413
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,680
Shows, I mean, they are they not
so much for the actors, but for

414
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,520
the producers.
It's just, you know, it's a cash

415
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:48,920
register that keeps ringing.
So Lucas and Spielberg made a

416
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,800
deal with, I think it was you.
I was Universal.

417
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,160
They made a deal with Universal
that they would partner up with

418
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,600
the studio, where they in effect
would have their own independent

419
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:07,240
production house with Universal.
That's how everything changed.

420
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,720
That kind of killed off the idea
of studio and independent

421
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:17,640
together for anybody else.
So you either worked under that

422
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,440
umbrella or you went into TV, or
you made independent films and

423
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,400
hoped you could sell them at the
new way, which was festivals.

424
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,000
Right.
So that's that's really what

425
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,040
happened.
And it begins, as Biskin points

426
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,600
out, really with Bonnie and
Clyde.

427
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:42,960
It begins then where what he
called New Hollywood displaces

428
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,640
Old Hollywood.
If you saw the Academy Awards

429
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:51,080
this year, the one the most
notable thing about it for me

430
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,320
was that there was nobody there
where were the great stars?

431
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,680
And that's always the reason
people watch the Oscars is to

432
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,320
see who's there, what they're
wearing.

433
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,440
This was a group of people that
nobody ever heard of except fan

434
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,400
film fan people.
So you know, the the wheel terms

435
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:16,600
and and it turns from the 60s
where teenagers were depicted as

436
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:23,280
beach blanket bingo kids, where
Vietnam War was raging, music

437
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:29,000
was creating a counterculture,
campuses were in protest and

438
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,960
Hollywood is making films about
Frankie Avalon singing on the

439
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,240
beach.
I mean, they were so out of

440
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:40,720
touch by that time.
There was nobody wanted to see

441
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,320
that.
They wanted to see something

442
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:48,200
real, not to them.
So the independent film movement

443
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,440
began.
And what's interesting about it

444
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:56,680
for me and for Jack Nicholson,
is that when everybody left the

445
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:03,880
village, Greenwich Village, and
migrated W to films, to a new

446
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:10,960
scene on Santa Monica Blvd. a
new kind of music, there was a

447
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,520
group that fancied themselves a
combination of hippie and

448
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:20,280
beatnik.
Who was in it?

449
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:27,080
It was Bruce Dern was in it.
Robert Walker Junior was part of

450
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,120
that.
That group.

451
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,320
The kid who did all the
acrobatic dancing in West Side

452
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:38,560
Story, he was in it.
A lot of guys who weren't really

453
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:43,080
young aren't really hippies.
They considered themselves kind

454
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,120
of literate.
Yeah, kind of neo beats.

455
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,360
Yeah.
And they had, they had a group

456
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,040
where they would meet in small
clubs and they would get up and

457
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,520
recite poems and they would
write screenplays.

458
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:04,440
One of them was Jack Nicholson,
who originally went to Hollywood

459
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,680
to be a writer, a screenwriter.
He had been he'd gone to high

460
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,480
school in in New Jersey, in
Neptune, NJ, right where Bruce

461
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,840
Springsteen is.
Comes from very creative little

462
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,280
place in New Jersey.
Whatever they're eating down

463
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:26,600
there, put back in your diet.
He he tried to he wanted to be a

464
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,880
football player.
Nicholson too small and couldn't

465
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,120
play.
He tried baseball.

466
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,080
He wasn't fast enough.
So he he got into a play in high

467
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:42,840
school and, you know, the magic
wand of getting girls swept over

468
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,000
him.
And he figured, well, that's for

469
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,800
me.
I mean, this is this is what I

470
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,080
want.
I was going to do that.

471
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,120
And he moved to California, you
know, like, like all the

472
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,960
lemmings and go to where they
go.

473
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:01,280
You know, the most beautiful
girl in any hometown who says

474
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,400
I'm going to be a movie star
goes to Hollywood.

475
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,360
And Hollywood is nothing but
beautiful girls from small towns

476
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:15,760
who become like every other girl
except Sidney Sweeney, who is

477
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,480
Creme de la Creme.
But most of them lined up, you

478
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,360
know, as as other things, you
know, they they wait on tables

479
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,000
for five years and they get
their job on the sitcom waiting

480
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,960
on tables.
Hey, I'm an actress.

481
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:38,760
This group fell in with a
producer of independent films.

482
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,280
What was his name?
The guy did all the Edgar Allan

483
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:48,640
Poe film.
Cooper name slipped by Mark.

484
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,320
Anyway, a Corman, Roger Coleman.
So Coleman was making these

485
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:59,680
independent films that cost
nothing and he used all of these

486
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:02,880
actors because they all wanted
to be in movies.

487
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,640
So Norman said, well I'll put
you in a movie, I can't pay you

488
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,640
almost nothing, but maybe
something will come out of it.

489
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,840
And so they all made these crazy
films, these low budget, no

490
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:21,240
budget Edgar Allan Poe films and
a whole bunch of crazy vampire

491
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,920
stuff.
And Jack Nicholson wrote most of

492
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,000
them.
The other guy who came out of

493
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,480
that was Peter Founder.
Sure he did all the motorcycle

494
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,800
films they had, you know, Wild
Angels and all that was all

495
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,840
that.
That was all Roger Corman, who

496
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,680
established a really good
independent small studio in the

497
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,880
60s.
And part of the reason that he

498
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,840
succeeded is because there was
no competition.

499
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,440
Hollywood was in such disarray
that a guy like Corman could

500
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,240
come and fill a place where
they.

501
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,920
Where Hollywood used to make B
movies, Carmen made B movies and

502
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,760
sold them as a movies and mostly
drive, insurance and Saturday

503
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:15,639
night dating movies.
Now, what happened was that, as

504
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:25,639
Biskin tells the story, Fonda
hooked up with A with his

505
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:30,360
partner in an Easy Rider, the
actor.

506
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,000
Oh, a naughty guy.
Yeah, A.

507
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:37,040
Naughty guy.
Oh gosh yeah, I forgot his name.

508
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,360
Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper.
Dennis Hopper.

509
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:49,320
Yes, Hopper was friends with a a
director who was partnered with

510
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,440
a guy with the president of
Columbia Pictures.

511
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:58,520
So the head, the president of
Columbia Pictures partner in

512
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,640
various crimes of cinema, was a
friend of Dennis Hopper.

513
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:12,440
Hopper went to to Peter Fonda
and said, look, we're making

514
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:18,920
these these motorcycle movies.
They're junk.

515
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,080
I have an in at Columbia
Pictures.

516
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:30,240
If we can make a movie, a decent
motorcycle movie, I can get it

517
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:30,960
made.
Wow.

518
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,360
The two guys I told you about,
the president of Columbia and

519
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:40,320
his friend had already been
successful with ATV show called

520
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,400
the Monkeys.
They had dreamt up the idea of

521
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,200
hey, what?
Look at The Beatles.

522
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,040
And we certainly can do that.
We'll put it on TV.

523
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:50,080
We'll make.
A That's right.

524
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,560
Create a band.
You know all.

525
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,360
Of that I remember.
I remember reading about this

526
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,640
this the same time, I'm sorry,
as the book Indecent Exposures

527
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,160
going on where?
Yeah.

528
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,680
So that's who that was, that
Davis, that was the head of

529
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,520
Columbia at that point.
David yeah, not, no, not Davis.

530
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,520
If you have, look up who who
produced Easy Rider.

531
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:23,960
OK, I'll find it.
Yeah, producer of Easy of Peter

532
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,920
Fonda was the producer, but
Barbara Fowleson and Bert

533
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,520
Schneider, Yeah.
Bert Schneider and and who was

534
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:35,560
the other guy?
And Bob Raffleson.

535
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,360
Raffleson, Bob.
Raffleson OK, so Rayfulson.

536
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,160
Rayfulson was a director who was
a friend of Schneider.

537
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,400
Schneider's father had been a
big wheel at Columbia.

538
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,600
And so with nepotism, full
blast.

539
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,480
The whole.
Industry, the whole industry as

540
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,160
a whole, the whole planet.
So Schneider became the head of

541
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,960
the company.
They wanted to make a feature

542
00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:03,600
film with the monkeys.
They say, well, it was such a

543
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:09,080
big success, let's make a movie
and put these four guys in it

544
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:14,560
and we'll make a fortune.
They needed a script.

545
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:20,440
And so the only guy they thought
had any talent at all was Jack

546
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,440
Nicholson.
So they hired Nicholson to

547
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,480
write.
I forgot the name of the film

548
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,280
that they did, but it was, it
was a monkey's feature, the only

549
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:34,160
feature of their head.
It was the name HEAD, an

550
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,800
apartment name.
Because everybody was stoned all

551
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,360
the time, especially Jack and
that whole gang.

552
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,520
And the film was directed by Bob
Rathelson.

553
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,480
So then Raphelson and it was
pretty good and made some money

554
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:52,760
on.
It's not a great film.

555
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,600
I don't think it's going to go
into the Hall of Fame of great

556
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,520
movies.
But you know, it was what it

557
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,920
was.
The the monkeys had a moment and

558
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:06,520
so they exploited it.
Jack Nicholson was so depressed

559
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,600
by having to work on this
idiotic movie, a film called

560
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,280
Head with all its meanings
implied.

561
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,840
He was going to drop out of it's
going to drop out of the

562
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,440
business.
He he he didn't want to write

563
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:33,160
anymore.
Based on the success of the

564
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:39,160
Monkeys movie, Schneider and
Raphelson heard about this

565
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:44,600
motorcycle film that Peter
Fonder and Dennis Hopper wanted

566
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,280
to make, and they decided they
would back it.

567
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,040
Yeah, which was a nightmare,
right?

568
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:59,560
RIP.
RIP Torn was in it and RIP Torn

569
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,000
was going to play the part that
Jack Nicholson eventually

570
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:08,080
played, but it at Peter Fonders
Townhouse in the East 60s in New

571
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,720
York.
RIP Torn and Peter Fonda got

572
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:12,520
into it.
Was it Peter Fonda or it was

573
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:13,800
Dennis Hopper?
Dennis.

574
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,560
Hopper, Dennis Hopper.
A fight that's it was like in a

575
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:23,280
movie, it spilled out of the
brownstone onto the street doing

576
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,480
this.
And that was the end of RIP

577
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,280
Torn.
So they needed someone to play

578
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:34,240
this character and it, you know,
it's like in a movie where where

579
00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:36,560
people say, what are we going to
do now?

580
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:41,080
And everybody's head turns to
this one guy and it's Jack

581
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,720
Nicholson.
And they say, Jack, we want you

582
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:47,680
to play this guy.
He's a kind of a nerd and, you

583
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,080
know, just kind of stuff that
Jack never wanted to do.

584
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,520
But they convinced it was a real
movie was Columbia Pictures.

585
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,120
They convinced him to do it.
And of course, it made him a

586
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,560
star overnight.
He stole the picture from

587
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,800
everybody.
The only thing people remember

588
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,000
there was this crazy and getting
killed while he was sleeping.

589
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,880
And and that thing he that
philosophical thing he does

590
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,920
about marijuana, all people
remember from the film and the

591
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:15,960
guys getting their heads blown
off at the end.

592
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:23,680
But what they did was they touch
the zeitgeist of of 1969 his

593
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:30,480
counterculture hot heroin.
All the cycles, I mean, it had,

594
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:37,720
it had everything that era
appealed to young people.

595
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,400
That's good.
Still does.

596
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:41,760
Absolutely.
Still does.

597
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,080
It made Nicholson the star.
It made him a bigger star than

598
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,960
Peter Fonda.
It it it brought back Dennis

599
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,640
Hopper from one of his several
trips to oblivion that took

600
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,200
place in his career.
He's and his next movie was so

601
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,960
incomprehensible that again, it
killed his career for another 10

602
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,000
years.
Well, apparently he was having a

603
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,920
hard time even during the
filming of Easy Rider in the

604
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,760
sense I apparently, like you
mentioned with a fight leading

605
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:12,760
up to it.
He was.

606
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,160
He's becoming less and less
manageable as time went on.

607
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,880
Well, you know, drugs played a
part in it.

608
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:24,000
Ambition and and no real script.
Nobody knew what they were

609
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,520
doing.
Bob Raffleson, that's an

610
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,880
interesting director.
He made a couple of interesting

611
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:34,120
films, but when I put him on the
level of Alfred Hitchcock, no.

612
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:40,960
The follow up that they made was
a film that Raffleson directed

613
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:49,960
for Columbia, 5 Easy Pieces. 5
Easy Pieces not only confirmed

614
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,680
that Nicholson was a star, but
it took him out of the hippie

615
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,200
thing.
It made him a mainstream star in

616
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:04,960
a film that could appeal to a
wider audience than hippies or

617
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:10,920
college kids or counterculture.
It was a real film, a very good

618
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,960
film.
Nicholson was superb in it.

619
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:23,320
And that's really how Nicholson
from this way faraway turns and

620
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,160
twists like on a roller coaster.
You know, it finally leveled off

621
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:33,200
and he became the biggest box
office star of the 70s.

622
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,120
It's a kind of a morality tale
from misfits.

623
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,360
I mean, this is how you do it.
If you're a misfit, you you

624
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,280
become the great misfit.
It kind of reminds me a little

625
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,520
bit of Timothy Chalamet.
You think so?

626
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:54,360
In in that tremendous charisma,
hard to cast.

627
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:59,480
Very diverse.
Yeah, but when he does a role,

628
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,600
you know, like that Dylan thing,
that what?

629
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:07,040
Do you think of that?
I hated it, but I thought he

630
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:08,920
was.
I thought he was worried.

631
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,160
The girl who played Joan Baez,
Spectacular.

632
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,720
You know, there was one good
moment in the film for me.

633
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,680
First of all, I lived through
that whole thing and I don't

634
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,880
remember anybody ever being
awake in the daytime.

635
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:29,160
And yet 900% of the film is shot
in the daytime on the streets of

636
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,720
Greenwichville.
Nobody was awake at that time.

637
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,720
So, you know, there's so much is
not right.

638
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,800
But what they did get right was
at the end of the film when Elle

639
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,400
Fanning, who's playing Susie
Rotolo, is his girlfriend.

640
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,840
And meanwhile he's with Joan
Baez.

641
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:53,800
And on screen, on stage, he and
Baez have this magic.

642
00:43:55,080 --> 00:44:02,360
And so he, Dylan invites Susie
to come see him at Newport.

643
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,200
And we had that troubles, you
know, they, they're breaking up

644
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:11,760
and they she doesn't want to be
a part of that, but she comes

645
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,920
and she's standing behind the
fence watching and she sees

646
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:22,400
Dylan and Baez Chalamet and that
wonderful girl who played Baez,

647
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,760
who's also in that prime one O
1.

648
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:30,000
She walked away with that movie.
She sees what they have and

649
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,360
realizes that she can never have
that with Dylan because his life

650
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,320
is up there on that stage.
And I thought, yeah, that's

651
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,560
right, They got that right.
But the rest, I mean, it's like

652
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:48,320
the Jolson story, if I had the
pleasure of seeing that or

653
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,320
Yankee Doodle Dandy.
I mean, these films that they're

654
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:56,320
fiction, yeah, but they.
I think that, I think that

655
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,960
Shamelay, I think that happened
with, with a couple of the

656
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,920
movies that I've seen where the
films are never going to be

657
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,200
great.
But I guess the question is how

658
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:09,880
the performer, how the how the
actor makes a historical record

659
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,440
of the of the musician, you
know.

660
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,880
And I think that Shamelay did a
great job.

661
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,400
I think the Austin Butler and
Elvis did a great job.

662
00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:19,720
And it just started the
Springsteen movie last night

663
00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:24,480
that I could not get through.
But the opening scene I thought

664
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,320
of the 81 river river like
closing.

665
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:33,160
I thought that that choreography
and Jeremy Allen, what was his

666
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:34,880
name?
Jeremy Allen White, I believe I.

667
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,640
Think.
I thought that his Springsteen

668
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:43,200
mannerisms and face and like and
the hand motions, the gesture

669
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,760
and the energy and like even the
leg kick at the end.

670
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,880
I thought that they did a really
good job recreating the 81

671
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,160
scenes.
But the movie itself, I was

672
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,240
like, I can't.
This is this is tough, man.

673
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,960
There's a genre of films, of
biographies.

674
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,080
You've got Michael Jackson
coming out.

675
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:07,840
That film, God only knows what.
Where's Michael?

676
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,440
He's with some kids, you know, I
don't know what they're going to

677
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:15,360
do with that film, but their
their responsibility.

678
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,480
The reason why they don't work
generally is because their

679
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:23,840
responsibility is to film and
not to music and and that that

680
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:28,720
skews everything in a weird way.
I mean, why my feeling?

681
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:34,200
Why go see Springsteen the film?
There's so much of Springsteen

682
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,680
on YouTube, the real thing.
Why go see the Dylan's film?

683
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:42,640
I have to sit through all that
BS when you you can see Don't

684
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:48,680
Look Back, the great Pennebaker
film and nothing can reach that

685
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:54,280
in in terms of who is Bob Dylan,
Ronaldo, even Ronaldo and Clara.

686
00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:58,480
I mean you there's so much of
the real stuff which when they

687
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,320
made the Jolson story, Yankee
Doodle Dandy or although Nicole

688
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,880
Porter, you didn't have that
other outfit.

689
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,800
So the films became film of
record.

690
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:12,440
Making a Springsteen film to me
and then releasing a soundtrack

691
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,360
album of the guy singing
Springsteen songs.

692
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,200
What?
See, if you have a studio

693
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,280
system, that would never happen.
Not that I have a lot, you know.

694
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,800
You don't, so I tend to agree
with your sentiment and that way

695
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,480
of thinking.
The only thing that I would say

696
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,680
is that it can help.
I know that for myself because

697
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,320
I'm 30 right?
I'm a self-taught old soul and

698
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:40,600
sorry.
I'm 32.

699
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:47,480
There you go, you're looking
and, and I'm self-taught with

700
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,720
all this stuff and the way I
come across a lot of this stuff

701
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:51,120
is actually through covers,
right?

702
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,840
So for example, I've been into
the Grateful Dead a lot in the

703
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,600
last couple of years.
The way I got into the Dead was

704
00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:00,560
I heard a cover of Springsteen's
Atlantic City by a Grateful Dead

705
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,480
cover band, right?
And I'm like, wow, this is

706
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:04,840
really cool.
And my friend goes, if you think

707
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,400
that's cool, check out the
Grateful Dead.

708
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:07,880
I'm like, who are they?
And he's like, that's the band

709
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,520
they're covering.
And so I stumble into this whole

710
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,480
universe that I got exposed to
through a, through a, through a

711
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,360
cover.
You know that that wasn't even

712
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:18,640
like the cover, right?
The band's cover is like the

713
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,680
cover for Atlantic City, but you
know that that this band did it.

714
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:24,880
And and then, and then I
stumbled into this whole

715
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:26,400
universe and the same thing
happens with, you know, I'm

716
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,920
listening to Billy Strings and
all of a sudden I find myself on

717
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,160
a dock in a row Hudson record.
And I say, how'd I even get

718
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,640
here?
But I think that so I think that

719
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,240
you're right.
And as far as the sentiment

720
00:48:35,240 --> 00:48:38,000
goes, but as far as exposure, I
have a lot of friends that watch

721
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,040
these movies and have now been
turned on to Dylan and now I've

722
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,040
been turned on to Springsteen.
And then they'll say, you know,

723
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,000
I don't like Dylan's voice.
I'm like, well, go to this,

724
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,800
this, this and this live
recording and go try this album

725
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:50,640
from this year, because it
sounds pretty different

726
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,240
throughout the years.
And you know, but it's a, it's

727
00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:55,520
a, it's a, it's a journey for a
lot of people to discover this

728
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,040
art and, and, and however they
get there, I'm happy to have

729
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:00,840
different avenues for them to,
to figure it out.

730
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:08,640
I mean, yeah, it look, any way
that gets people to the people

731
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,480
they should get to is
legitimate.

732
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:17,000
I'll tell you a funny story.
I was driving up to my house

733
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:23,560
upstate and I was with a a young
girl in her 20s before you call

734
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:30,800
the police and I said New York.
Yeah, yeah, I'm from Rockland.

735
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:36,080
Greene County, that's where my
house Woodstocks around there.

736
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,240
Yeah.
So I say you want to hear some

737
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:42,280
music.
And this is a young girl in her

738
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,560
late 20s.
I said I'll put, I'll put the

739
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:51,320
iTunes thing on.
You know, the the Wi-Fi thing.

740
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:59,040
I put it on Bob Dylan comes on,
She says I kid that guy's voice

741
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:03,640
hurting my ears.
Take that off and you know,

742
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,520
crushed, sorry, you know, almost
almost went off.

743
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:11,600
They turned.
I just voice of a generation how

744
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,960
things have changed.
You know, it's just still is

745
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:17,480
hurting her too.
So, you know, things change.

746
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,320
They definitely do.
They definitely do.

747
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,080
Can we?
I wanted to just also say about

748
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,200
Jack Nicholson, I'm curious your
thoughts on this and then we'll

749
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,880
kind of transition on.
But Jack Nicholson to me

750
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,760
represents also the shifting of
the the creative power in

751
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:37,920
Hollywood from directors to
actors.

752
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:43,280
And he was kind of the bridge
between that creative, the

753
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,960
creative force behind the camera
and then the people on the

754
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,800
camera.
And he really like, like what

755
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:50,720
you said.
And it almost takes a a misfit

756
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:52,480
to be able to do something like
that.

757
00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:55,040
To cross over.
Yeah, yeah.

758
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,840
But he, but he embodied.
He embodied authenticity and

759
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:03,400
real darkness in like people
that film felt like it was.

760
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,600
It was, it was.
It was not popular to touch

761
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,040
unless you were an amateur film
maker, you know, like he

762
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,760
embodied just so many different
aspects of human psychology

763
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,320
throughout his throughout his
acting that a lot of people

764
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,000
didn't weren't necessarily used
to seeing portrayed on screen.

765
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,400
I thought that was really,
really cool too.

766
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,640
Well, you see, he he doesn't
come from nothing.

767
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:31,800
During the studio era, actors
and actresses were trained how

768
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:36,560
to act for the screen.
They were the studios.

769
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,840
It's such a fascinating subject,
the life inside of a studio.

770
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,160
I mean, you, you lived there.
It was like a college campus.

771
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:50,040
You did everything there.
You you know Warner Brothers had

772
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:57,440
a a whore house on on their
premises because they they

773
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:04,240
didn't want their actors to make
any outside women pregnant

774
00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:07,040
because of the scandal.
No way.

775
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:14,480
So they just and and who peopled
the the whorehouses starlets,

776
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,640
you know, it was part of their
deal was all you're going to

777
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,760
have to do this kind of thing.
In those days, you could get

778
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:26,080
away with that.
So along with their sex lives,

779
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,480
they were also trained in a
certain way.

780
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:34,480
If you look at actors during the
studio era, Jimmy Stewart, Cary

781
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:41,280
Grant, John Wayne, Ronald
Coleman, all these classic

782
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:48,040
actors, the women too, all those
women who came out of those

783
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,720
movies, they all act in a
certain way, which you could

784
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:56,720
describe as playing for the
camera and external.

785
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:02,480
Here's what happened.
All those great actors were

786
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:07,440
conscripted or volunteered to be
in World War 2 during this

787
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:14,360
Greatest Generation era.
Five years later when they came

788
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,680
out, they were either shell
shocked like Jimmy Stewart or

789
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:22,680
are they had been physically
wounded or they had age, they

790
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,240
had be lost what they had as
leading men.

791
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:32,000
So there was a gap.
There was a vacuum of a need for

792
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,120
leading men.
So where did they go?

793
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,240
Where did Hollywood go?
They went where they always

794
00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:41,480
went, to Broadway.
But Broadway had become

795
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:45,800
methodized through Kazan and
Tennessee Williams.

796
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:50,280
It was a new kind of Broadway.
And the actors that they got

797
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,640
from Broadway, we're not playing
for the camera.

798
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,320
They were playing for
Stanislavo.

799
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,320
And so you had Who came out of
that?

800
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,760
Montgomery Clift.
Marlon Brando.

801
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,920
Al Pacino No.
Later, James Dean.

802
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:13,880
Yeah, those 3, Cliff, Brando and
Dean, revolutionized what you

803
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:18,560
could do on screen, playing
these pained, sensitive,

804
00:54:19,720 --> 00:54:26,560
beautiful men who made everybody
in the audience love them in a

805
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:31,040
way that Cary Grant didn't.
Cary Grant, certainly everybody

806
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,480
loved him, but there was a kind
of a different kind of worship

807
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:39,240
there.
Out of them came De Niro, came

808
00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:46,440
Pacino in The Next Generation,
the Great Escape guy.

809
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:55,560
I don't know those guys, but
only a very Warren Beatty.

810
00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:01,200
Only a few of them could do what
you're saying.

811
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,400
Most actors did not have that
kind of power.

812
00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:09,480
If you were a character actor,
you were a character actor.

813
00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:14,960
If you were a leading man and
with a comedic bent, that's what

814
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,080
you did.
If you were a dramatic dark

815
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:22,120
looking actor, you know, mean or
that's what you played.

816
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:28,000
So it was only guys like Brando,
Cliff and Dean, later on De Niro

817
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:35,600
and Pacino and Beatty, they all
were able to call their own

818
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,400
shots.
But whenever they deviated from

819
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,600
what they, what audiences
wanted, that films didn't do

820
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,120
well.
So there was a de facto

821
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:50,200
categorization, you know,
typecasting or even for the

822
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:57,160
biggest actors when De Niro
tried in the King of Comedy,

823
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:01,320
where he played that comedian,
Luna.

824
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,080
Was that a Scorsese movie too?
Yeah, Scorsese movie.

825
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:05,400
That's right.
That's right.

826
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:10,520
And Jerry Lewis is in it, right?
Andre Bernhardt, Sandra

827
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,240
Bernhardt.
Yeah, I think that's on that.

828
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:15,600
Very, very funny the the film
Bond.

829
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:20,480
I mean, it laid a golden egg.
It wasn't until years later that

830
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:24,640
it gained A reputation as being
a wonderful film, and it's a

831
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:29,240
pretty good film.
But as soon as De Niro tried to

832
00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:34,880
shift into something else
besides the broodings, you know,

833
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:40,240
method wounded sensitive guy, it
didn't work.

834
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:45,960
So even then there was a limit.
The only difference between the

835
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:50,160
studio system and then was in
the studio system, if you didn't

836
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,040
want to do a film and you were
under contract, you were

837
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,600
suspended until you agreed to do
the film.

838
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,040
In modern filmmaking, if you
don't want to do it, you move on

839
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,560
to the next thing.
There's no one to say you can't.

840
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,640
So that that's kind of the power
difference.

841
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,600
Right, I got you Cool Steve
McQueen.

842
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,160
Gotcha.
Well, let's well, let's talk

843
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:16,840
about Disney.
I'm really excited about this

844
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:20,800
because I've been a Disney
behind the scenes fan and how

845
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,920
the company works and the back
story for a long time fan for a

846
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:26,480
long time.
And I've read a lot about it.

847
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,360
But I've never until recently
been exposed to the notion of

848
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:33,920
his working with governments.
I mean, I have heard during

849
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,480
World War 2 that he'd make these
animations, you know, help with

850
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:41,520
propaganda purposes, but I
didn't know much about it until

851
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,200
I recently saw that.
A guy, I don't know if you've

852
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,640
heard of him, Mike Benz online
is excellent.

853
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:52,000
And he does a whole thing about
the CIA and their investment in,

854
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,840
you know, throughout different
entities and including

855
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,320
entertainment.
And he was being advised through

856
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:01,080
Bank of America and then while
they're purchasing the land for

857
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:06,720
Disney World through a lot of
CIA assets and actual players

858
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,280
that have been involved in
various schemes for a very long

859
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:15,280
time.
I don't know much about the his

860
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,600
politics and his relationship
with the FBI that I know that

861
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,240
you wrote about.
And I do want to actually ask

862
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:23,560
because I did do Google on this.
It looks like you got a little

863
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,720
bit of lash back for, for the
work that you did about that.

864
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,440
I want to ask about that.
And I want to ask about the

865
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,480
actual content.
And we, we can go wherever you

866
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,120
want because I'm having a ton of
fun listening to you.

867
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:35,320
So wherever you want to go with
this.

868
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:39,600
Well, first of all, when when
you get, what did you call it?

869
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:40,720
The.
Lash back.

870
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,240
A flashback that's that's not
bad.

871
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:51,880
I mean that's you know, that's
something that means people are

872
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:55,080
reading people are listening to
you here.

873
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:59,760
Here's what happened after I
wrote Death of a Rebel.

874
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,120
And I did two or three other
books, really wonderful books.

875
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:08,480
So one of them was called Rock
Anomics, which was Financial

876
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,000
History of Rock.
Yes, I want to talk.

877
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:14,120
Yeah, yeah.
Which is great book, if I can

878
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:17,600
say so myself, because it
dispels all the myths and tells

879
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:19,760
you what the business was.
Sure.

880
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:25,160
Anyway, then I got the only time
in my career got a writer's

881
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:29,480
block of monumental proportion,
a couple of years where I just

882
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:33,280
couldn't.
I couldn't follow Death of a

883
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,400
Rebel with anything that was
that important to me.

884
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:44,720
And then one day I was reading
Truman Capote's By the Biography

885
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:49,040
of Truman Capote, a very big,
definitive book.

886
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:56,080
And I thought to myself, who
cares about Truman Capote worst

887
00:59:56,080 --> 01:00:01,400
of all, and how can you write
800 pages on him?

888
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,800
And what did he do?
He wrote a wrote 1 short story

889
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:08,320
and 11 gruesome book about a
murder.

890
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:12,600
I mean, what, what did he do?
He went an awful long way on a

891
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:18,360
very short string of success.
But yeah, I read it and I

892
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,440
thought, wow, it's really, you
know, impressive.

893
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,200
And I thought, I want to write a
book like that.

894
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:31,400
I want to write a big sprawling,
warts and all.

895
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,080
I mean, the, the Capote book had
leprosy.

896
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:37,000
That's how many, many works that
were in that book.

897
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:41,560
I, I said, I want to write a
book like that.

898
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:49,080
And somehow the name Walt Disney
came to me.

899
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:51,640
I, I don't know.
I don't know how, but I thought

900
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:53,440
Walt Disney.
What do we know about Walt

901
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,560
Disney?
Well, we know two things, Mickey

902
01:00:56,560 --> 01:01:02,840
Mouse and we know who he is
because of this TV show, Walt

903
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,280
Disney presenter or Disneyland,
whatever it was called in the in

904
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:08,880
the 50s.
His persona is very tailored.

905
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,720
Yeah, and, and, and, you know,
everybody knows.

906
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,960
Everybody knew who he was.
The only other director I could

907
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:21,120
think of at the time who had
that was Alfred Hitchcock

908
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:26,360
because of his TV show.
So I thought, well, you know,

909
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:30,840
that's a good starting point.
People who you don't know, who

910
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:35,320
you know because of their image
rather than who they are.

911
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:43,040
Right.
So I I wrote a proposal and my

912
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:47,720
desperate agent, when are you
going to do something, sent it

913
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:52,760
to a very big publishing house.
And I met with the editor and he

914
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:57,640
said, so this you want to do
what Gerald Clark did with

915
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,280
Truman Capote.
I said, if you mean write a real

916
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:06,840
book, yes.
He said, OK, you can do it.

917
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:09,360
And here's what happened.
Is that considered risky?

918
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,560
Is that, was that considered
risky for the person on the

919
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:14,840
other end of it that's, you
know, signing up?

920
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:16,680
Is that like, do they consider
themselves signing up for

921
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,400
trouble at that point?
Probably.

922
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:28,400
I mean, whenever you try to tell
the truth, instead of do PR, you

923
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,560
go through a legal vetting
thing, which is a nightmare.

924
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:35,800
You know, you think that this
absolutely needs to be in there.

925
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,280
And they say it absolutely can't
be in there.

926
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:44,960
But here's what happened.
I called up, I was living in

927
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:49,920
Lai, called up the Disney
Studios and I said I would like

928
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:55,480
to go into your archives.
The archives are run by a fellow

929
01:02:55,480 --> 01:03:02,840
Dave Something, who his job was
to keep the archives going.

930
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:08,400
The archives at the Disney
studio in Burbank is

931
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,280
underground.
They keep like a temperature

932
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:13,560
evolved and they've got all the
negatives that got off.

933
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,360
They've got the entire history
and all the.

934
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:25,320
It's legendary.
And I said, look, I'm writing a

935
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:31,320
big biography for a major
publisher, and I want to get the

936
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:36,320
real story.
At this point, I had no real

937
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:42,160
opinion about Walt Disney,
except I was skeptical that he

938
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:45,280
was everybody's uncle.
I thought that whole thing was a

939
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:47,760
little bit calculated, Uncle
Walt.

940
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:52,280
So I went to the studio.
They were great.

941
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:55,760
Oh, come on in, Mr. Elliott.
Oh, we're so happy you're here.

942
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:59,040
And we're going to take you into
the archives, and you can have

943
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,640
anything you want, except
there's only one small thing we

944
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,920
want you to do for us.
What's that?

945
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:13,160
We'd like you to sign a contract
saying that we have final say

946
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:14,920
over the book.
Sure.

947
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:17,920
By the way, what year is this,
I'm sorry, or around what year?

948
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:23,320
AM 90.
Got it.

949
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:25,560
OK.
So that's Michael Eisner.

950
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,360
Was the CEO at the point or not?
Yet yeah, Michael Eisner was

951
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:29,600
there.
Gotcha.

952
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,400
OK, I didn't get to meet him.
But The funny thing was, so they

953
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,960
escorted me off.
They actually called security

954
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:41,840
and no way off the studio
grounds.

955
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:51,880
Well, Hollywood is so crazy.
The next day I went back and

956
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,960
then they had no offenses.
You could just walk on to the

957
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:57,800
studio.
So I walked on to the studio.

958
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:00,200
I went into the animation
building and I talked to

959
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:04,120
everybody in there and they
still had they had what Disney

960
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:08,280
had what what they called the 9
old men based on the Supreme

961
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:09,960
Court.
They were the big animators, the

962
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,120
guys that's right there from the
beginning.

963
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:17,240
I talked to every one of them
and everyone who was still

964
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:22,000
alive, and then they were great.
Now one of them said, you want

965
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:29,600
to talk to this other guy who
Disney fired, Art Babbitt.

966
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:32,040
Arthur Babbitt was just sure I.
Remember his?

967
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:34,000
I know the name, yeah.
Yeah, great.

968
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:38,760
Adam there.
Babbitt was living in a small

969
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:40,440
house.
I went to visit him.

970
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:47,240
His nickname was Stick the Stick
because he was so skinny, and he

971
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:51,120
told me a story about Walt
Disney's that blew my head off.

972
01:05:54,480 --> 01:06:04,040
Babbitt had drawn Snow White
based on a real person, a real

973
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:09,280
actress, and that actress was
Marge Champion.

974
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,840
What?
She became Marge Champion Gower

975
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:18,040
Champion's wife later on, But
her first husband was Art

976
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:20,320
Babbitt.
And Babbitt said that when he

977
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:26,080
started dating Marge, Disney had
him thrown into an insane

978
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:28,960
asylum.
Had Art thrown in?

979
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:36,080
Yeah, because he said anybody
who would do that to Walt Disney

980
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:40,400
is obviously crazy.
Wait, what?

981
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:41,800
Walt Disney?
I'm sorry, can you?

982
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,680
I don't understand.
Have an affair with Snow White?

983
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:49,080
Oh, he was married to.
He was dating.

984
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:52,280
But he did eventually marry her.
Gotcha.

985
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:54,960
He was dating the girl that was
the that was the role model for

986
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:56,360
Snow White, and Disney had to
throw her.

987
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:59,040
To sleeping with her.
And everybody knew it.

988
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:01,960
And Disney went into a rage
about it and he thought, this

989
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:04,760
guy has to be crazy.
And so we had him locked up.

990
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:09,400
And he was also a bit of a rebel
in his own way, but very

991
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,600
creative.
He never worked in Hollywood

992
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:17,760
again and he got released.
He was blacklisted from

993
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:22,120
Hollywood.
And he said to me, if you really

994
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:27,120
want to know the story of Walt
Disney, get a hold of this FBI

995
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:31,120
file under the Freedom of
Information Act.

996
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:36,720
I'm sure there's a law in there.
Took me two years to get that

997
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:41,200
file.
I, I hired a girl to work for me

998
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:46,560
whose only job was to get that
file and, and she was amazing.

999
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:49,400
I don't know how she did it.
This girl was great.

1000
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:56,040
The file was the size of the
Manhattan phone book, and it was

1001
01:07:56,040 --> 01:08:00,680
largely redacted and it had
things in it that were

1002
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:07,800
astonishing most of all.
And if you have the book or you

1003
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:11,760
look at the book, the back of
the book is a page from the

1004
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:19,160
files that identifies Walt
Disney as an FBI agent SAC and

1005
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:28,279
agent contact in the files.
It clearly, and it's heavily

1006
01:08:28,279 --> 01:08:31,040
redacted, but there was enough
there.

1007
01:08:31,279 --> 01:08:35,319
You know, like the Epstein
files, there was enough there to

1008
01:08:35,319 --> 01:08:41,640
show that what Disney was doing
was allowing the government to

1009
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,120
come in and go through the
files, the employment files of

1010
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:51,359
everybody at the company to make
sure they didn't have subversive

1011
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:53,399
connections.
Disney.

1012
01:08:53,399 --> 01:08:56,040
Was a huge anti communist point
of time right?

1013
01:08:56,399 --> 01:08:58,640
To the to the right of Attila
the harness.

1014
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:05,120
They say first of all, he didn't
like Hollywood when he arrived

1015
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:10,640
in 1922 to be an animator
because he began at Universal as

1016
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:13,319
an animator and he created our
Walls of Rabbit.

1017
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:14,680
Right.
Got stolen.

1018
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:19,560
Souls from him and that's how
Mickey was created, because he

1019
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:22,920
wanted to have his own
character, but he blamed it all

1020
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:25,960
on Jutes.
That was the thing with Disney.

1021
01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:28,319
Disney did.
Do we have a record of that?

1022
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:32,040
It's in the it's it's in the
files and in the people I

1023
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:34,840
interviewed here, here, Here's
why.

1024
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:41,319
All the studios were run by
Jews, mostly except one or two,

1025
01:09:41,319 --> 01:09:45,479
but most of them all the power
and and you know, there were a

1026
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,640
million books about why
Hollywood was Jewish and.

1027
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:52,439
They couldn't.
Any other corporation, all of

1028
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:57,440
that, and he was not.
And so he felt that he couldn't

1029
01:09:57,440 --> 01:10:01,920
break in because they, he wasn't
a member of what he, what did he

1030
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:04,840
call the Old Boys club, the
European Boys Club.

1031
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:09,520
And it was probably some truth
in that, some level of truth.

1032
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:10,920
That's, you know, who is this
guy?

1033
01:10:11,440 --> 01:10:14,960
You know, we don't trust them,
they don't trust us.

1034
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:17,520
And so it was a kind of a mutual
thing.

1035
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:24,240
So he started his own studio and
he did something and all the

1036
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:27,440
people who flashed back on the
book seem to forget that I call

1037
01:10:27,440 --> 01:10:31,360
them a genius in the book and
pointed out some fantastic

1038
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:34,360
things he did.
He created the three minute

1039
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:38,480
cartoon with Mickey Mouse,
Steamboat Bill and all that

1040
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:42,480
without dialogue.
And the reason who did that was

1041
01:10:42,480 --> 01:10:45,280
so he could sell them all around
the world.

1042
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:52,480
Every country could buy a Disney
cartoon without dialogue music.

1043
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:53,720
True.
Yeah.

1044
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:57,400
And so that's how he made his
money.

1045
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:01,400
And.
And as he made all this money,

1046
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:08,960
his real goal was to make a
feature animated cartoon, which

1047
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:12,440
turned out to be Snow White.
His brother Roy.

1048
01:11:13,440 --> 01:11:19,920
Roy was the business end.
Roy, No matter what, no matter

1049
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:22,800
what Walt wanted to do, Roy
would say you can't do that.

1050
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:25,760
Crazy.
Well then I go bro, no.

1051
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:28,120
Yeah.
Yeah, and they went ahead, did

1052
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:32,360
it, and of course made history.
But you know, when Disney formed

1053
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:36,760
his own studio, he really wasn't
an artist.

1054
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:40,040
He if you want to call him
something, you call him a

1055
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:44,040
visionary.
The real artist was this fellow

1056
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,600
called AB Iworks that nobody has
ever heard of.

1057
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:50,080
I think you wrote a book.
I never read a book by him.

1058
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:53,160
Yeah, it may have later.
On it wasn't very good.

1059
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:55,560
I, I didn't like it very much.
Rather, it wasn't speak to me,

1060
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:58,080
but I, but I, I think I've read
it before, yeah.

1061
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:04,200
They were partners in the studio
and the name of the studio was

1062
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:10,120
Iworks Disney.
One day, Disney said said to AB.

1063
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:17,360
You know, oh, no, the name of
the studio was Disney Iworks.

1064
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:21,120
That was the name of the studio.
And one day Disney said, you

1065
01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:24,760
know, it sounds like we we make
glasses.

1066
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:28,920
Disney Iworks.
It doesn't sound like a studio.

1067
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:33,760
So would you mind very much if
we change the name to the Disney

1068
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:37,160
Studios?
And who was really a very

1069
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:40,480
talented technician.
He created a dry plane.

1070
01:12:40,480 --> 01:12:41,960
So he did a lot of wonderful
stuff.

1071
01:12:43,440 --> 01:12:49,040
He didn't know any better, and
so he agreed to it and put

1072
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:53,480
himself into permanent oblivion.
Only the only who were

1073
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:59,760
interested in animation who on a
deeper level than cartoons

1074
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:02,960
going, nor who he was like.
Cosby act as Steve Jobs.

1075
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:04,120
Almost.
Yeah, that's right.

1076
01:13:04,440 --> 01:13:08,840
That even less so than that.
Like the guys who were partners

1077
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:11,800
on Facebook, those guys.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1078
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:15,280
But that's, see, that's who
Disney was.

1079
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:18,320
He was a kind of a conniving
genius.

1080
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:26,480
And when the war was about about
to break out, World War 2,

1081
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:33,200
Disney was an American firster.
He didn't want the country to go

1082
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:35,760
to war.
Why not?

1083
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:41,400
Because he was a fascist and not
because he liked Hitler the way

1084
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:47,000
that Wender did, who was also
anti war.

1085
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:53,040
Because his market was overseas
where he made all his money.

1086
01:13:53,480 --> 01:13:57,240
So you go to war with Germany.
Germany was a huge market for

1087
01:13:57,240 --> 01:14:00,120
Disney.
They loved his cartoons and so

1088
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:06,200
he didn't want to go to war.
And in his head, he blamed Jews

1089
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:11,400
for the war.
You know, of course, the

1090
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:16,880
Holocaust and all of that which
came out later, he felt proved

1091
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:19,680
his, his point that they were
the enemies.

1092
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:24,520
And also the the Jewish cabal,
as he referred to it in America

1093
01:14:25,160 --> 01:14:28,240
was going to make money off of
the war.

1094
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:38,480
So that he so he decided that
the only people who wanted to go

1095
01:14:38,480 --> 01:14:41,840
to war were the communists
because they were the avowed

1096
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:46,520
enemies of the fascists.
And that's where the whole anti

1097
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:53,520
communist thing begins.
He, he formed various groups, he

1098
01:14:53,520 --> 01:15:00,040
helped anti going to war groups
he formed, he helped form the

1099
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:05,880
first HUAC investigations.
He he which didn't go very far

1100
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:09,840
during the war, but after the
war Hollywood committed suicide

1101
01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:12,960
and he was one of the people
behind all of it.

1102
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:18,560
Then when he was called to
testify and this is all in the

1103
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:24,600
file, he named 3 animators who
he said were comments.

1104
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:31,680
One of them was a fellow
Silverman who had gone to the

1105
01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:36,560
Moscow Arc Conservatory in the
20s to study art.

1106
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:40,800
Ominous.
I found him living in a cold

1107
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:44,960
water Canyon in the suburbs or
in the woods outside San

1108
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:46,600
Francisco.
Never worked again.

1109
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:53,680
He and his wife Silverman kept a
scrapbook of the big strike in

1110
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:57,720
1940, at the time the biggest
Hollywood strike.

1111
01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:00,320
We.
And here's where the Uncle Walt

1112
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:03,080
thing comes in.
I said to Silverman, can I copy

1113
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:07,040
this at Kinko's?
Well, OK, yeah, go ahead.

1114
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:09,520
So I dragged all this stuff to
Kinko's.

1115
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:14,560
I stood there while they
hundreds of pages took it back

1116
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:17,080
with me.
And it is.

1117
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:21,000
Even the people who hated the
book begrudgingly acknowledge

1118
01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:27,840
that I did the best strike story
of what took place during that

1119
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:30,160
strike as essentially this is
what it was.

1120
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:35,120
Disney was anti union, the same
unions with communism.

1121
01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:43,240
And he felt that his studio was
a family and and so he wanted

1122
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:49,120
people to call him Uncle Walt
because you can't go on strike

1123
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:53,080
against your family.
You can't complain to a family

1124
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:56,280
member.
I'm your uncle, you know, you

1125
01:16:56,280 --> 01:16:59,040
don't need to join a union.
I'll take every care of

1126
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:01,280
everything.
Well, they went out on strike.

1127
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:07,160
The strike lasted nine months,
and the only way it was settled

1128
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:12,600
was that Roy the businessman got
Nelson Rockefeller to send

1129
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:15,480
Disney to South America on a
goodwill tour.

1130
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:18,640
Free war.
And while he was away, Roy

1131
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:23,720
settled the strike which.
Wow, is that when he got into

1132
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:25,320
all the nature stuff?
I think that was around the time

1133
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:26,800
he started doing all the nature
documentaries.

1134
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:29,120
Right.
A little later, this is when he

1135
01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:31,600
did the three caprieros, right,
Right, right.

1136
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:35,800
All the Latin stuff, the nature
stuff came with TVA little bit

1137
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:39,960
later.
And so that that split the

1138
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:45,800
brothers that put something Roy
Walt never forgave Roy for

1139
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:50,960
settling that stripe.
And you And if you look at the

1140
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:55,320
films that were made during it,
like Dumbo, watch Dumbo again

1141
01:17:55,320 --> 01:18:00,680
and you'll see there's a group
of men working for the circus

1142
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:04,080
who are kind of strike work a
strike strikers.

1143
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:08,920
It's a very look at it again.
It's an incredibly telling film.

1144
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:12,960
Look at Bambi with the no
father, which goes back to

1145
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:20,960
another part of Disney's life.
But in 1949 or 50, Disney wanted

1146
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:24,440
to open up a an amusement park
called Disney.

1147
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:31,120
He wanted to open it in Burbank
right next to the studio.

1148
01:18:31,480 --> 01:18:36,720
The Burbank is about 5 miles
east of Hollywood.

1149
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:40,000
A lot of the studios were there.
Most of them were there Warner

1150
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:43,440
Brothers, Columbia.
Columbia was close to and

1151
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:45,960
universe.
When Universal found out that he

1152
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:50,520
wanted to open up a studio near
them because they were all near

1153
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:52,520
each other, they bought the
land.

1154
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:59,160
Jim Fury, Disney.
So he wound up buying an orange

1155
01:18:59,160 --> 01:19:03,600
robe in Anaheim, but he didn't
have the money.

1156
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:12,120
So at the same time, ABC, the
ABC network, which today was

1157
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:16,800
owned by Disney, but back then
they couldn't compete with the

1158
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:22,200
CBS and NBC and the DuMont
Network, which was the 4th

1159
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:26,880
network back then, and they
needed content.

1160
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:32,960
So they made a deal with Disney.
They would fund Disneyland in

1161
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:37,720
return for having access to his
library of films, which would

1162
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:41,160
give them content.
And Walt said I'll make that

1163
01:19:41,160 --> 01:19:45,920
deal if I can host the show.
And that's how Disney became

1164
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:51,960
everybody's uncle Disney and TV
Land, how he funded Disneyland

1165
01:19:53,440 --> 01:19:59,200
coming out of Hewack and kind of
whitewashing his image in

1166
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:06,320
Hollywood by being this
avuncular TV host saved ABC from

1167
01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:09,680
going out of business with that
Sunday and then Wednesday night

1168
01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:13,280
show.
So it's a great saga and.

1169
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:19,840
You, in my opinion, you can't
write a book about anybody if

1170
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:23,800
you don't tell the whole story.
You know, there's another guy

1171
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:25,560
who wrote a Disney book after
me.

1172
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:27,800
I'm not going to mention his
name because I threatened to

1173
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:34,080
beat him up at a party because
what he did was he went to

1174
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:38,680
Disney and said the same thing.
I want to go into the archives

1175
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,120
and they said, well, you have to
let us see it.

1176
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:47,240
And he did.
He let them really write the

1177
01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:53,480
book for him in return for which
he wrote a less acerbic account.

1178
01:20:54,440 --> 01:20:58,160
And I, OK, you know, fine, if
people want to read that, let

1179
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:01,000
them read it.
Then he started going on TV

1180
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:05,000
shows and putting my book down.
You know, unlike Elliott's book,

1181
01:21:05,280 --> 01:21:08,360
my book.
So I happened to run into him in

1182
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:10,200
a party.
Come here.

1183
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:14,360
I'll talk to you for a second.
I got a little rough with him.

1184
01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:19,080
Not physically, but I said to
him, if you mentioned my name

1185
01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:23,440
again in any way connected to
your book, I will break your

1186
01:21:23,440 --> 01:21:26,640
neck.
All right, OK.

1187
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:31,120
And, And he's kind of a meek,
kind of a schmuck jerk.

1188
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:33,400
You call him Schmuck, that's
fine.

1189
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:36,880
Yeah, Schmuck.
Schmuck is actually closer to

1190
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:40,640
what he is.
He never again mentioned my book

1191
01:21:41,240 --> 01:21:44,080
because you could you know you
when these things come on Google

1192
01:21:44,080 --> 01:21:49,480
tells you I hate just this whole
demeanor changed after that.

1193
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:54,840
Not to say that I'm a tough guy
or something, but I it's so

1194
01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:58,160
outrageous.
The politics behind the Disney

1195
01:21:58,160 --> 01:22:04,720
book by Disney hired a when my
book came out the daughter hired

1196
01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:10,840
yeah Diane Disney hired APR
group to discredit the book and

1197
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:14,920
the week the book came out they
issued essentially a book

1198
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:21,400
attacking everything in my book
but and distributed free to

1199
01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:30,440
everybody but never sued me
never can't write any any action

1200
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:32,280
against.
You know what discovery?

1201
01:22:33,320 --> 01:22:35,400
Yeah, that's right.
And also the wife was still

1202
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:39,000
alive, Lily and Disney.
So they and she's in the book

1203
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:44,000
they they knew they couldn't sue
because they knew it was true.

1204
01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:47,360
So the only thing that they had
was cash.

1205
01:22:47,440 --> 01:22:49,920
Credit, yeah.
And we?

1206
01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:54,160
Do that everywhere, huh?
Yeah, that turned into a whole

1207
01:22:54,240 --> 01:23:00,280
other situation.
But the New York Times called me

1208
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:04,600
and said can we see the the
Disney file?

1209
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:07,680
Can we see it?
Yeah.

1210
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:10,680
So I'll send it to you, but
please send it back to me.

1211
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:14,440
They got it and they wrote a
piece.

1212
01:23:14,440 --> 01:23:19,120
They wrote two pieces justifying
everything I said in the book

1213
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:23,360
was essentially true.
One was on the page and 1 was by

1214
01:23:23,360 --> 01:23:27,200
Russell.
That their famous editorial,

1215
01:23:27,920 --> 01:23:33,600
Russell somebody, Russell Baker,
wrote this piece talking about

1216
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:37,880
the book.
What happened was they then

1217
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:41,920
hired A reviewer for the book
review, the Sunday book review,

1218
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:44,800
and he trashed the book based on
the Disney thing.

1219
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:52,320
But even he said that the the
stuff about the strike was in

1220
01:23:52,440 --> 01:23:58,600
great.
So you know, what I learned from

1221
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:04,520
all of that is that when you
write a book about Walt Disney

1222
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:11,440
or any, any of those icons, you
can't really write that book

1223
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:15,760
because you have to overcome the
image that they've spent a

1224
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:19,240
century building and they're
now, you know, mega corporation

1225
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:21,400
and now own ABC among a million
others.

1226
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:27,040
You have to either not write
that book or go in and take your

1227
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:30,760
lumps.
So at that time, I was coming

1228
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:34,880
out of a writer's block.
I did not go into the book

1229
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:39,760
wanting to trash him.
But it was Silverman who had

1230
01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:44,600
been mentioned in in the
Disney's testimony.

1231
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:47,520
All three of the artists he
mentioned never worked again,

1232
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:52,120
who said, get the look at the
strike stuff.

1233
01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:57,520
This is who Disney was.
Disney hired thugs, strike

1234
01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:01,760
Breakers.
One of them wound up working for

1235
01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:06,440
it was in Reagan's cabinet.
So some of the stories are so

1236
01:25:06,440 --> 01:25:08,880
great that you really can't go
into here.

1237
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:13,880
But it taught me a lot about how
to how to write a biography as

1238
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:18,680
opposed to how to writing Hagia.
And there's a big difference.

1239
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:24,480
And, and then of course, I got
involved in the OJ case, which

1240
01:25:24,480 --> 01:25:32,800
was a nightmare, but my biggest
book because I had the goods.

1241
01:25:33,320 --> 01:25:38,360
And then I wanted to, I, I said,
finally after two years of that,

1242
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:43,560
I want to write a book where
nobody is going to put me on the

1243
01:25:43,560 --> 01:25:46,480
witness stand and nobody is
going to try to kill me.

1244
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:49,880
I said, what about it?
I was living with a girl who had

1245
01:25:49,880 --> 01:25:56,240
connections to, to Irving Azoff,
who was the Eagles manager.

1246
01:25:56,880 --> 01:26:00,160
So I, I said I'm going to write
a book about the Eagles.

1247
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:06,280
What harm can there be in that?
Well, I, I said to her, I said

1248
01:26:06,320 --> 01:26:11,360
we send a send a fax over to
Irving telling him that I want

1249
01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:15,560
to interview the Eagles.
Well, we got a fax back 10

1250
01:26:15,560 --> 01:26:19,320
minutes later.
Tell your boyfriend and not only

1251
01:26:19,320 --> 01:26:22,400
will he not talk to the Eagles,
but he won't talk to anybody

1252
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:25,920
living in Los Angeles.
I will make sure I mean, and it

1253
01:26:25,920 --> 01:26:28,840
was just war over all over
again.

1254
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:33,440
It was another battle that began
a war and I spent two years

1255
01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:38,520
battling them.
Finally, the book.

1256
01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:42,680
This is a great this really this
this you'll leave this in.

1257
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:47,880
I'm sure the book was done and
they were protesting it.

1258
01:26:48,480 --> 01:26:52,840
Here's why they were so angry,
among other things, including

1259
01:26:52,840 --> 01:27:00,400
Don Henley's a mania for privacy
at which he sees as some kind of

1260
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:06,560
measure of authenticity.
But you had Warner Brothers,

1261
01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:11,800
right?
And all kind of attachments.

1262
01:27:11,800 --> 01:27:15,760
Warner Books little.
Record label, Yeah.

1263
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:20,680
Warner records at the top.
Warner films at the top of the

1264
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:23,560
pyramid.
The biggest money maker, The

1265
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:27,800
biggest single money maker in
the history of Warner Brothers

1266
01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:30,800
was the Eagles.
No way.

1267
01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:31,880
Yeah.
Oh yeah.

1268
01:27:32,240 --> 01:27:34,480
Until today.
They're doing this fear now and

1269
01:27:34,480 --> 01:27:37,280
I can't imagine how much money
they're bringing in and setting

1270
01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:39,920
up the.
Receipt since they started that

1271
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:42,840
billboard.
Billboard lists the attendance

1272
01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:47,040
every week, not an empty seat.
It's incredible.

1273
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:50,840
It's going to be it's going to
be a film and they're going back

1274
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:54,680
on tour, their 9th of retirement
post retirement tour.

1275
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:56,560
That's what they there.
Was as many as Elton John.

1276
01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:00,320
Or The Who?
They're the champion.

1277
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:06,440
So they said you can't publish
this book because where are

1278
01:28:06,440 --> 01:28:10,000
Warner Brothers?
Hey, the publishing division is

1279
01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:12,160
independent.
You know, we can't stop them.

1280
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:15,720
And they were.
The book was already in galleys,

1281
01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:19,440
which is a proof copy, a printed
proof copy that goes out and

1282
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:22,240
reviews.
Finally, I said, you know, this

1283
01:28:22,240 --> 01:28:26,360
has been going on since 1990.
It's now 1997.

1284
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:28,600
I just want to go up to my
house.

1285
01:28:28,840 --> 01:28:32,960
I want to turn the phones off.
I just want to catch my breath.

1286
01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:39,760
The first morning I was there,
my phone rang at 7:00 in the

1287
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:42,480
morning.
I said, really, it's just too

1288
01:28:42,480 --> 01:28:45,800
much.
I picked it up.

1289
01:28:46,480 --> 01:28:49,520
Is this Mark Elliott?
Yeah.

1290
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:54,440
So hold on for David Geffen.
Whoa, yeah, sweet.

1291
01:28:55,680 --> 01:28:58,280
I'm on the phone.
Another girl comes on, said Mark

1292
01:28:58,280 --> 01:28:59,560
Elliott.
OK, David's coming.

1293
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:02,800
Hold on.
Finally, 33 assistants down.

1294
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:06,000
David gets on the phone.
Mark, how are you?

1295
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:08,840
How's everything?
I've never met him, even though

1296
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:11,680
he's in the Eagles book.
He had refused to be

1297
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:16,400
interviewed.
I said, what do I owe this

1298
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:24,280
lovely phone call to?
And he said, he said, you know,

1299
01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:28,680
I read your Eagles book and I
have to tell you, it's terrific.

1300
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:33,480
However, you left a couple of
things out.

1301
01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:36,400
Now, bear in mind there are two
things.

1302
01:29:36,400 --> 01:29:37,960
First of all, the book was
embargoed.

1303
01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:41,440
There was no way he could get a
copy of the book, but he was

1304
01:29:41,440 --> 01:29:44,840
David Geffen, and so there's.
No way he couldn't get a copy of

1305
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:48,080
the book, actually.
I mean, I couldn't get a copy.

1306
01:29:48,080 --> 01:29:54,160
I you know what I discovered
writing the book was that Geffen

1307
01:29:54,280 --> 01:29:58,760
and Henley hated each other.
Hated each other.

1308
01:29:59,120 --> 01:30:04,200
And the reason they did was
because when Henley, when Henley

1309
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:08,240
and the Eagles signed with
Geffen, Geffen was creating an

1310
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:14,360
independent label called Asylum
Hit the allure for the Eagles,

1311
01:30:14,360 --> 01:30:16,680
who considered themselves anti
corporate.

1312
01:30:16,960 --> 01:30:18,960
You know, we don't want to be
part of the machine.

1313
01:30:19,120 --> 01:30:22,640
We want to be independent.
And Geffen said, well, I'm the

1314
01:30:22,640 --> 01:30:26,360
guy you know, I'm the guy who
will give you all of that.

1315
01:30:27,640 --> 01:30:32,280
So they, they signed with
Asylum, they made an album,

1316
01:30:32,400 --> 01:30:36,480
Desperados, the album,
everything was fine.

1317
01:30:36,480 --> 01:30:44,040
And then Geffen sold the album,
sold the label to Warner

1318
01:30:44,520 --> 01:30:52,400
Electra, Merge, became Warner
Electra Atlantic Asylum.

1319
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:57,040
That's right.
And suddenly Don Henley finds

1320
01:30:57,040 --> 01:31:04,080
himself working for the biggest
corporation and music, and he

1321
01:31:04,280 --> 01:31:08,640
blames David Geffen.
And so they get into all kind of

1322
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:12,120
lawsuits because he also had a
solo contract with Gavin.

1323
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:14,040
He didn't want to give him the
solo stuff.

1324
01:31:14,040 --> 01:31:15,840
And Gavin, I'm taking you to
court.

1325
01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:17,120
You have to give me these
wrecks.

1326
01:31:17,480 --> 01:31:20,800
So when Geffen.
So when I wrote the book, I

1327
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:25,520
didn't know any of that.
You know, I wrote the book the

1328
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:31,480
way I could, Geffen says to me,
I'm going to tell you some

1329
01:31:31,480 --> 01:31:35,120
things that nobody knows that
need to be in your book.

1330
01:31:35,120 --> 01:31:37,000
I said, well, you have the book
in front of you.

1331
01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:39,080
It's already written.
Don't worry about that.

1332
01:31:39,840 --> 01:31:42,520
I'll call.
I'll call your publisher.

1333
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:47,120
We'll work the whole thing out.
Just listen to me and listen

1334
01:31:47,120 --> 01:31:49,920
carefully.
Flip the tape recorder on.

1335
01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:53,840
I spoke to him for a week, one
week.

1336
01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:56,960
Every morning, he would call me.
Now, don't forget 7:00.

1337
01:31:56,960 --> 01:32:01,240
My time is 4:00 in the morning
in LA That's David Gaff, 24

1338
01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:02,560
hours.
Yeah, that's right.

1339
01:32:02,560 --> 01:32:08,080
By the time the week was over,
my eyes were open.

1340
01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:15,080
And I say to the publishers, you
know, I have all this new

1341
01:32:15,080 --> 01:32:17,040
information I want to put in
what they say.

1342
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:19,400
Well, the book is already
written.

1343
01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:24,760
Then Irving Azoff, the manager
of the Eagles, called the

1344
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:30,600
publisher and said, we
understand that Mark talked to

1345
01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:32,680
David Geffen.
Is that true?

1346
01:32:33,840 --> 01:32:37,000
And my publisher says, yeah,
yeah, yeah.

1347
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:38,400
And we're going to redo the
book.

1348
01:32:38,880 --> 01:32:43,680
So Irving Azoff says, well, you
can't redo the book unless Mark

1349
01:32:43,680 --> 01:32:49,960
talks to Don Henley, the guy who
swore I would never be able to

1350
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:54,360
step foot in Los Angeles.
They wound up all talking to me

1351
01:32:54,360 --> 01:32:57,520
and I rewrote the whole book.
Wow.

1352
01:32:59,640 --> 01:33:04,320
And they paid me again, which
big money they paid me again to

1353
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:09,920
agree to pull the book, rewrite
the whole thing and release it.

1354
01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:16,680
Henley I, I, I, I spent a lot of
time with him, with all the

1355
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:20,120
living Eagles.
It was a different book.

1356
01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:23,720
It was, it was fantastic.
And still he wasn't happy

1357
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:28,360
because Henley wanted me to take
out the story about the, the

1358
01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:31,040
girl that overdosed in his
house.

1359
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:35,080
And he went, he actually went to
trial and they were going to put

1360
01:33:35,080 --> 01:33:37,720
him in jail.
He didn't want that to come out.

1361
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:42,200
I said why it happened and he
said I don't want my 97 year old

1362
01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:45,160
mother to read that.
I see your your 97 mother year

1363
01:33:45,160 --> 01:33:48,520
old can read.
She she's going to be reading a

1364
01:33:48,520 --> 01:33:49,720
rock book.
Come on.

1365
01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:57,640
Anyway, the book came out Graves
still in print to this day.

1366
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:02,040
You can go on Amazon and you'll
see it's not only as an imprint,

1367
01:34:02,200 --> 01:34:04,680
but it's always high on numbers
of rock books.

1368
01:34:04,680 --> 01:34:09,240
It's always like 30, 2015.
It's one of the biggest books I

1369
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:15,080
I ever wrote.
So the life of a writer.

1370
01:34:15,080 --> 01:34:18,240
I mean, that's, that's that's
how it goes.

1371
01:34:18,480 --> 01:34:22,760
You have to be aggressive.
You have to be either ignorant

1372
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:28,080
or fearless or both.
Both helps and you have to want

1373
01:34:28,080 --> 01:34:36,360
to be able to tell a story, but
you give you get 100 artists in

1374
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:45,120
a room and you get David the
statue of David in Florence by

1375
01:34:45,280 --> 01:34:50,040
Michael and you say to them
here's here's the marble, here's

1376
01:34:50,040 --> 01:34:54,600
the chisel, here's the hammer.
These are all the tools that

1377
01:34:54,600 --> 01:35:01,280
Michelangelo use.
Make David point being that you

1378
01:35:01,280 --> 01:35:04,720
can have all the training, you
can have all the technical

1379
01:35:04,720 --> 01:35:08,200
knowledge, but you also have to
have talent.

1380
01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:14,000
You have to be able to make that
magic leap into talent.

1381
01:35:15,640 --> 01:35:23,160
So I got into biography because
of Phil Oakes's death and

1382
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:26,320
wanting to tell that story
before someone came in and

1383
01:35:26,320 --> 01:35:32,960
screwed it up and we biographer
became my main, not my only

1384
01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:37,160
subject, but my main subject.
The last big one I did was Merle

1385
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:39,840
Haggard, which it's a five star
book.

1386
01:35:40,440 --> 01:35:44,120
Everybody loves that book and
everybody, almost everybody,

1387
01:35:44,200 --> 01:35:47,840
talked to me for it.
And I'm working on two books

1388
01:35:47,840 --> 01:35:52,520
now, not exactly biographies,
but one is a movie book and 1 is

1389
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:55,000
a film, a music book and film
book.

1390
01:35:55,680 --> 01:35:59,320
So they're my 30th and 31st
books.

1391
01:35:59,800 --> 01:36:02,560
Incredible.
Incredible age of 35.

1392
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:07,560
I've done all these books.
Wow, Age of 32, Ripe age of 32.

1393
01:36:07,560 --> 01:36:13,080
And you've done all this.
You know I would.

1394
01:36:13,720 --> 01:36:14,960
I know, I know we're out of
time.

1395
01:36:14,960 --> 01:36:18,080
I know we're a little overtime.
I would love to do another

1396
01:36:18,080 --> 01:36:20,800
episode with you if in a couple
of months, if you have the time,

1397
01:36:21,080 --> 01:36:24,240
because I'm having so much, I'm
having so much fun with this.

1398
01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:27,840
And I just want to ask maybe one
or two last questions if you

1399
01:36:27,840 --> 01:36:28,960
have a minute.
Sure.

1400
01:36:29,920 --> 01:36:32,080
Do you?
There's so many good things over

1401
01:36:32,080 --> 01:36:35,560
here.
Circling back to Disney, do you

1402
01:36:35,560 --> 01:36:41,440
think there's any reason to
assume that that he stopped,

1403
01:36:41,440 --> 01:36:43,280
that he said that the company
stopped working with the

1404
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:46,200
government, with FBI and, you
know, treat, you know, giving

1405
01:36:46,200 --> 01:36:48,760
that kind of internal
information to the government at

1406
01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:51,000
any point?
I mean, one thing that is a

1407
01:36:51,000 --> 01:36:54,920
famous sentiment is that once
government to anyone gets power,

1408
01:36:55,160 --> 01:36:57,680
it takes an awful lot for them
to relinquish any of it, you

1409
01:36:57,680 --> 01:37:00,240
know, And so like, once a
precedent is set, I, I imagine

1410
01:37:00,240 --> 01:37:04,120
that the fear is that that it
could just keep on happening.

1411
01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:10,120
Well, first of all, it wasn't.
The company was Disney OK,

1412
01:37:10,360 --> 01:37:15,000
individual OK.
Secondly, Ronald Reagan.

1413
01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:19,440
I wrote a biography of Reagan
called The Hollywood Years that

1414
01:37:19,440 --> 01:37:23,160
is only about what he did before
he became a.

1415
01:37:23,160 --> 01:37:26,720
Professional, Ronald.
Reagan and it's it's a wonderful

1416
01:37:26,720 --> 01:37:28,520
book.
It's being made into a

1417
01:37:28,520 --> 01:37:33,920
documentary now.
It it shows you where all of his

1418
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:39,920
abilities came from, mostly from
Jack Warner and Warner Brothers.

1419
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:47,960
It's a really wonderful story.
Reagan also collaborated with

1420
01:37:47,960 --> 01:37:53,200
the FBI when he was the head of
the screen, the Screen Actors

1421
01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:58,720
Gil Sack.
When Reagan was asked about it,

1422
01:37:59,840 --> 01:38:01,280
he said, well, of course I did
it.

1423
01:38:01,280 --> 01:38:05,160
It was the patriotic thing to
do, see, And that's where the

1424
01:38:05,160 --> 01:38:08,960
Disney people went off.
They should have said yes, he

1425
01:38:08,960 --> 01:38:13,760
did because he was doing it for
the sake of what he felt was his

1426
01:38:13,760 --> 01:38:16,880
patriotic duty.
Instead, they went crazy.

1427
01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:21,160
No, he never, even though that
said on every page in the file

1428
01:38:21,440 --> 01:38:24,680
that he was a special agent.
SAC.

1429
01:38:25,120 --> 01:38:29,160
What is an SAC?
Special Agent contact, which

1430
01:38:29,160 --> 01:38:34,520
meant that the FBI had agents in
all over Hollywood.

1431
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:38,600
That's a whole other story.
The war between Hollywood and

1432
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:41,760
Washington.
And they had contacts in every

1433
01:38:41,760 --> 01:38:45,960
studio and they would call them
an SAC.

1434
01:38:46,280 --> 01:38:51,440
So in their memos, they would
say to J Edgar Hoover re

1435
01:38:51,480 --> 01:38:57,120
regarding Walt Disney SAC, Walt
Disney special agent Wow.

1436
01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:03,360
You see the back cover of the
book, there's a page from the

1437
01:39:03,360 --> 01:39:06,360
file that shows you Walt Disney
SAC.

1438
01:39:06,840 --> 01:39:11,040
So all the all the accusations
that they made and all the the

1439
01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:15,080
lying and the covering up didn't
hold any water.

1440
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:19,680
Yeah, because I had the goods,
but I didn't have the goods.

1441
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:22,360
Believe me, they would own my
country house today.

1442
01:39:23,320 --> 01:39:25,080
That's right, that's right,
that's right.

1443
01:39:25,080 --> 01:39:28,720
Well, thank you.
Thank you really sincerely for

1444
01:39:28,720 --> 01:39:31,160
the great work that you've done
and that you continue to do.

1445
01:39:31,160 --> 01:39:38,240
And I love the mentality of not
listen, we live in a world that

1446
01:39:38,240 --> 01:39:42,080
is so dependent on people who
self censoring out of

1447
01:39:42,080 --> 01:39:45,280
intimidation and fear that it's
really, really wonderful to hear

1448
01:39:45,280 --> 01:39:47,600
someone say, you know, look at
the machine in the face and say,

1449
01:39:47,600 --> 01:39:49,120
Hey, I don't know what you're
talking about.

1450
01:39:49,120 --> 01:39:50,960
I got the facts right here.
You want to fight with me about

1451
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:52,200
the facts, fight with me about
the facts.

1452
01:39:52,200 --> 01:39:53,920
But like, I don't know what you
want to say about this.

1453
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:57,640
And I know that it takes and you
know, I don't know, I, I, I'm

1454
01:39:57,680 --> 01:39:59,800
beginning to learn very, very
slowly.

1455
01:39:59,800 --> 01:40:02,480
And you know that there is an
enormous amount of pushback for

1456
01:40:02,480 --> 01:40:05,320
just pointing out the obvious a
lot of times and pointing out

1457
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:07,920
reality.
So thank you really.

1458
01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:10,960
For, for the great work that
you're that you're doing and

1459
01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:13,520
that you've done.
And I really would love to

1460
01:40:13,520 --> 01:40:15,400
record again in a couple of
months, maybe when you have some

1461
01:40:15,400 --> 01:40:17,760
more free time, but to dive into
a lot more of the work you do

1462
01:40:17,760 --> 01:40:19,720
that you've done.
Because I'm having a really

1463
01:40:19,720 --> 01:40:21,880
amazing time.
And this conversation is exactly

1464
01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:24,360
down, down my alley.
And I'd love to have a lot more

1465
01:40:24,360 --> 01:40:25,880
of it.
All right.

1466
01:40:25,920 --> 01:40:32,120
Well, yeah, happy to to do it.
I always like to nothing I like

1467
01:40:32,120 --> 01:40:34,000
better than talking about myself
so.

1468
01:40:34,480 --> 01:40:35,440
There we go.
Beautiful.

1469
01:40:35,440 --> 01:40:36,960
I've noticed a lot of people
have that in common.

1470
01:40:38,360 --> 01:40:41,000
Anyway, Mark, thank you so much.
I really appreciate the time.

1471
01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:42,920
This is really wonderful.
Thank you.

1472
01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:43,840
You're welcome.