Entertainment Series 14: Lawrence Levy / Taking PIXAR Public (IPO) / Steve Jobs / Eastern Philosophy / Search for Meaning

1
00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,040
Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

2
00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,320
Yes.
Lawrence.

3
00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,480
Mr. Lawrence Levy, Pinch me.
I've said this on the podcast

4
00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,280
before, but as time goes on, I
find myself saying it more and

5
00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:25,280
more often.
Pinch me.

6
00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,240
I can't believe we're here.
But welcome to the show.

7
00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:29,400
I'm so happy to have you here.
How?

8
00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:30,680
Are you?
I'm really happy to be here.

9
00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,120
You know, so you're the most
patient person in the world.

10
00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,800
You must have stayed in touch
with me for so long about doing

11
00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,440
this.
So I really appreciate your

12
00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,960
patience and I'm I'm really glad
to meet you and be doing this.

13
00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,960
Of course, of course.
So for a little bit of context

14
00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,160
for background, and I'm sorry if
I was just going to brush over

15
00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:48,920
this real quick and we could
kind of dive into it.

16
00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,400
I read your book to Pixar and
beyond in you published I think

17
00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,280
2016 or 17, right?
Yeah, that's right.

18
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,120
Yeah.
So I must have read a year or

19
00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:57,560
two after it came out in
college.

20
00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,280
And I remember, I remember not
only where I was while I was

21
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,360
reading it, I remember how I
felt while I was reading it.

22
00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,280
There's something about the
writing and even the topic.

23
00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,160
Forget about, you know, there.
There's the writing, of course,

24
00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,040
and the combination of
technology, business,

25
00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,240
entertainment, creativity, fun,
search for self meaning, search

26
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,800
for purpose.
And like all of it is being

27
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,320
expressed at one time.
I felt like I was kind.

28
00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:24,960
I, I, you know, and then I, I,
I, I, I felt such a visceral

29
00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:28,240
connection that I had to.
I just googled your name, found

30
00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,680
your e-mail and sent you an
e-mail telling you how much I

31
00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,240
enjoyed the book and
particularly was curious about

32
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,560
your, your exploration into the
Eastern culture, which I've, by

33
00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:42,000
the way, since developed even
more of a you know, I don't know

34
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,760
if I call it appreciation for
rather than understanding.

35
00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,920
But, and then, you know, years
and years later, I've started a

36
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,760
podcast and, and your name, for
whatever reason, just slipped in

37
00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,160
time.
Oh, I was teaching a class.

38
00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,120
I teach high school English and
I'm teaching my students about,

39
00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:01,640
about the entertainment world a
little bit and a little bit

40
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,240
about the background.
And I recommend this book.

41
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,160
And I say, I haven't read this
book in a long time.

42
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,560
And so I reached back out and
read it again.

43
00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,920
I found myself at points
relating particularly the way

44
00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:17,840
that you describe the feeling of
succeeding once Pixar IP owed.

45
00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:19,920
I, I, I was tearing up a little
bit.

46
00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:23,880
I, I, I, I was absolutely there
with you in that moment that I

47
00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:25,880
feel at least.
And again, you know, we, you and

48
00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,680
I started talked off camera
about the experience of wisdom

49
00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,600
and the, the fact that wisdom
and experience are tied hand in

50
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,240
hand.
I related to the feeling of

51
00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,880
like, feeling like I don't know
where I'm working.

52
00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,400
I'm working towards something.
Oh, this is it.

53
00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,240
And like that, that, that, that
it's a break and it just comes

54
00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,200
over you and I'm so honored to
have you here.

55
00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,520
I'm so happy to have you here.
That's a little bit the

56
00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,120
background.
I think we should quit while I'm

57
00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,360
ahead.
I think we.

58
00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:54,560
Should like thank you for having
me.

59
00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,800
That was just amazing.
Yeah, exactly.

60
00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:01,040
So I'm here.
So I'm actually going to, I'm

61
00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,600
actually so, but the podcast
tends to be a little

62
00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:05,400
unstructured and a little bit
more conversational.

63
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,520
So I kind of want to actually
let you decide.

64
00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,600
Do you want to start with tell
me a little bit about your

65
00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,720
upbringing coming up or a little
bit about your professional life

66
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,600
and then talking more about the
personal stuff.

67
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,360
What do you how?
How do you feel like you want to

68
00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,560
you want to start into this?
Whatever you want, I'm I'm happy

69
00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,920
to jump in anywhere.
What do you think your your your

70
00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,040
your audience would would be
interested in?

71
00:03:24,640 --> 00:03:27,680
Well, let's let's get up
unwrapped in in what you did and

72
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:32,640
who you were and, and to talk.
And there's so much that I want

73
00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:34,000
to elaborate on.
There's so much that I'm

74
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,120
interested in that why don't we
start with at least the premise

75
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,920
of your book and the premise of
your experience, and we'll go

76
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:41,080
from there.
Sure.

77
00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:42,840
Well, I'll give you a little
background, I guess.

78
00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,400
So I, I, without going into my
whole new life story, but I, I

79
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,920
grew up in London, England, in
the, in the northern suburbs of

80
00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,120
London.
I moved to United States when I

81
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,880
was in my late teens with my
family.

82
00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,200
You know, I ended up going to
undergrad and then I ended up

83
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,120
going to law school and I became
a lawyer.

84
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,520
I became a lawyer near you in
Miami, FL.

85
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,040
I was practicing that in
downtown Miami.

86
00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,720
And this is in the 80s.
I got a bug to understand more

87
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,800
about what the time was a brand
new industry, which was software

88
00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,480
and technology.
And I started going around

89
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,360
learning this.
It was a really new field of

90
00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,160
law.
No one was doing it and I was

91
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,520
like no one is doing it.
I should be doing it didn't?

92
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,120
Scare you away?
Pardon.

93
00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,560
It didn't scare you away that no
one was doing, it did.

94
00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,880
People tell you no, it was the
opposite.

95
00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,040
I didn't know it then, but it's
turned out I had kind of a sort

96
00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,320
of, you know, entrepreneurial,
sort of, you know, risk taking

97
00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,080
spirit even as a lawyer, which,
which can be a little more

98
00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,480
conservative.
But like I anyway, I, I saw that

99
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,960
the place to do it, if there was
one, was Silicon Valley.

100
00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,240
And, and you know, my wife,
Hillary, you've now met.

101
00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,920
We had a one year old baby and
we moved out to Silicon Valley

102
00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,880
and I and I went to a law firm
here and I said, I, I just want

103
00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,240
to do this new stuff, this new
technology software stuff.

104
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,400
And, and they gave me an
opportunity to do it.

105
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,400
I was a young associate and we
built this big legal department,

106
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,440
the first technology
transactions, law practice

107
00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,400
actually ever.
And, and then at at the end of

108
00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,760
that, I became a partner at this
firm and I came home to, to

109
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,320
Hillary and I said, I, I think
I'm going to move out of this

110
00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:22,360
field.
And she's like, we've been

111
00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,480
working for this for years.
We finally made it, you know,

112
00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,600
that big chance and, and you
want to leave?

113
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,240
And I said, well, it's not that
I necessarily want to leave.

114
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,160
I just don't want to do this for
the, you know, this is this is

115
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:35,440
hard.
This is really a grind and I

116
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,240
want to try something else.
And I ended up going to work for

117
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:43,840
one of my clients who was F Ryan
Mouazi was the founder.

118
00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:46,440
He was a very famous
entrepreneur from Israel.

119
00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,760
And I ended up helping to take
that company public.

120
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,840
And then and then the story that
where the book starts, you know,

121
00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:56,640
it happens a few years into
electronics for imaging when I

122
00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,760
it's 1994 and I literally get a
phone call in in my office and I

123
00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,560
literally pick up the phone and
at the end of the line I hear,

124
00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,840
hi, this is Steve Jobs.
I heard about you and I thought

125
00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:12,520
we might work together someday.
And I have a company I'd like to

126
00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,200
tell you about.
I was as flabbergasted by that

127
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,680
call as it will be.
You know, hearing about it can.

128
00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:23,800
You tell me like to I'm sure you
remember the the experience very

129
00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,600
vividly, but did you think it
was a joke?

130
00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:27,840
Did you think it was an
accident?

131
00:06:27,840 --> 00:06:28,560
Like what?
What was your?

132
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,600
What was your?
No, I mean, I took it at face

133
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,800
value.
I thought I knew that.

134
00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,520
And also the context matters a a
lot because at that moment in

135
00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:42,120
time, you know, Steve was, was
probably the low point of his

136
00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,440
career because he'd had a spring
of failures over the preceding

137
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,480
10 years.
He had been fired, famously

138
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,440
fired from Apple.
And then he did the Pixar

139
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,160
imaging computer, which was a
failure.

140
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,720
He did the next computer, which
is where he what he was doing

141
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,680
then that had no commercial
success and he was being written

142
00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,160
off.
And so this was a moment in time

143
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,200
when, you know, people would say
to me things like, you know, why

144
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:05,840
would you want to work for
Steve?

145
00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:08,360
Because he's sort of lost his
edge, you know, that kind of

146
00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,680
thing.
And so I knew all that, of

147
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,520
course.
And so, you know, I thought he

148
00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,200
was talking about next computer,
but he wasn't he was, he was

149
00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,840
talking about Pixar.
So, but he was still, you know,

150
00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:23,120
the the famous wunderkind, you
know, what created Apple?

151
00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,000
And so I was like, sure, you
know, let's get together and,

152
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,680
and, and I'd love to hear what
you have in mind.

153
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,160
And in that interim time, you
know, it was more time when

154
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,600
people were like, you know, you
wouldn't want to go work for

155
00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,680
him.
And, and I was, you know,

156
00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,200
figured I'd sort of judge for
myself.

157
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,520
And then, you know, I met him.
I went to the offices of next

158
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,680
computer and, and we sat across
from each other and we just hit

159
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,840
it off.
I mean, there's just two people

160
00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,800
that met and hit it off, you
know, forget all the background

161
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,040
noise around it.
And, and so I, I just said, OK,

162
00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,560
why don't I go explore this, you
know, explore this company,

163
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,000
Pixar.
That's awesome.

164
00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,120
I, I, I find that I found this
with a couple of friends that

165
00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,080
I've had a couple, there's
certain people that I've met

166
00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,560
that I've immediately clicked
with and felt a real chemistry

167
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:12,720
with.
And one of the things that I

168
00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,920
find is that I'm very drawn to,
and it doesn't make a difference

169
00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,320
in what way it manifests, but
people that are very intentional

170
00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,880
about their lives, about the way
that they spend their time,

171
00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:24,520
about the direction that they're
heading.

172
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:26,280
And they're thoughtful about
things.

173
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,400
And thoughtful in the kind of
sense that the way that you're

174
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,920
describing where you're very
successful at a job in the

175
00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:33,840
industry or a career in the
industry.

176
00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,120
And, and, and have the
self-awareness to kind of look

177
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,760
yourself in the mirror and say,
is this, is this the kind of

178
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,120
thing like I, I, I know that
I've hit XY and Z achievement by

179
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,360
someone's standard, by American
standards or society standards

180
00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:47,800
or my parents standards, whoever
it is.

181
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:53,320
But I myself feel like there's,
you know, that that with my I've

182
00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,560
got a life that I have to live
and what I've got more to do,

183
00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,160
you know?
Well, totally, I, I felt that

184
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,840
several times in, in my career.
And this was a moment of it as

185
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,880
well because, you know, as I
said, like most people were, and

186
00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,320
it's not just that Steve was in
a doubt So you sort of moment,

187
00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,600
but, but Pixar was way worse.
I mean, this was like over a

188
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:17,080
year before Toy Story came out
and Pixar had literally lost $50

189
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,280
million of Steve's personal
money.

190
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,000
It had no money, you know,
payroll was being paid out of

191
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,440
Steve's personal checkbook.
It had no business model or, or

192
00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:30,880
people were sort of writing off
Pixar as, as a sort of another

193
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,040
Steve Jobs kind of graphics kind
of, you know, failure.

194
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,880
And so, so there's no good
reason to do it.

195
00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,200
But I went up there, you know,
and and and.

196
00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,320
Hey everyone real quick if
you're enjoying the show, click

197
00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,200
subscribe and rate the show. 5
stars helps a ton.

198
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,480
Thanks so much.
But I, but this time I was so

199
00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,000
well versed in, you know,
Silicon Valley, I, I knew what

200
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,200
it was to do, you know, the
risks involved in startups and

201
00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,760
that kind of thing.
And I met the team and the crew

202
00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,600
out there and I watched the
first few minutes of Toy Story

203
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,320
before it was even finished.
And at the time, you know, I

204
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,600
didn't know how rocky of a
journey it would be.

205
00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,360
And I was perhaps a little naive
about it, but I certainly felt

206
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,960
that there was that it was a
kind of feeling that if there's

207
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:18,360
a breakthrough to happen in this
field, guys that are going to do

208
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,120
it right?
And maybe it won't happen and it

209
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,400
probably won't happen.
But if it does happen, then

210
00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,480
they'll do it.
And so, so, you know, with that

211
00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,000
I said, you know, why not just,
you know, let's jump on board

212
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,120
here.
And they certainly don't have

213
00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,000
anybody that brings to the table
what I do a kind of financial

214
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:43,840
strategic, you know, technology
oriented sort of strategic way

215
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,280
of looking at things.
And so, and Steve was busy at

216
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,000
next so I could go in there and,
and, and perhaps help them shape

217
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,920
it into a company that turned
out to be way harder than I ever

218
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,800
imagined.
That was what at least I thought

219
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,400
going into it.
Yeah, hard enough to write a

220
00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,480
whole book of that, I imagine.
Yeah, and I want it and I want

221
00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,880
to disentangle and from your
perspective too.

222
00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:10,960
But I would like to get a little
deeper and disentangle a little

223
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:12,640
bit of the challenges that you
overcame.

224
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,160
Because one thing that, you
know, the I, I started this show

225
00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,280
and part, and the big reason why
I started the show was A, to

226
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:24,680
learn from my own self, but B,
to help I, I I, I, I think that

227
00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:28,880
one of my calling in general is
to help teach and help raise

228
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,000
people up from, you know, and
help achieve their potential

229
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,280
more.
And I think that a lot of the

230
00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,400
challenges that you've
experienced that you outline,

231
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,480
especially in the book, are a
lot of experiences that, that

232
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,760
people go through on a regular
basis and don't really know

233
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,760
where to draw from.
Because a lot of the especially

234
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:53,080
for men in business tech law
type of world are not

235
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,600
particularly inclined to be
expressive of doubt and fear and

236
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,880
insecurity and and and and and,
and even.

237
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,520
Did I even make the right choice
in doing this to begin with?

238
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,400
You know, and, and, and, and I
think that these decisions haunt

239
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,880
a lot of people.
And I'm curious as to what the

240
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,440
tools that you've had.
I don't know if this is your

241
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,160
personality.
I don't know if this is your

242
00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,560
relationships with your, with,
with your people and wife and

243
00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:23,560
family around you.
What allows you to leap from A,

244
00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:27,640
the comfortable to the
uncomfortable and B, to process

245
00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:29,160
a challenge.
And we'll talk about some of the

246
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,520
challenges that you've
experienced, but to not

247
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,320
experience the challenge as, Oh
my God, I'm going to fail.

248
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,280
How do I, how do I resolve this?
How do I, how do I come to some

249
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,320
kind of conclusion?
And I'd love to hear something,

250
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,360
some of your thoughts about some
of those questions.

251
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,040
So it's a, that is a really good
question.

252
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:45,800
If I think about it, I think.
Thank you.

253
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,440
I guess one thing about me that
I would say is that I'm unafraid

254
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,440
of reality.
OK.

255
00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:03,000
I think it's very difficult to
sort of base reality and a lot

256
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,960
of reasons for that because
things that are happening to us,

257
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,000
we it's very hard to sort of put
an emotional layer on top of it

258
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,400
and deny, you know, sort of
what's happening.

259
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,600
So I've always, I'd say, been
good at sort of fearlessly

260
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,560
looking at what's happening.
Sometimes it's good stuff and

261
00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:24,480
sometimes it's really scary
stuff.

262
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:27,920
And, and I could be in business
and it certainly can be personal

263
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:29,800
as well.
So, you know, when there are

264
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,400
personal challenges to deal
with, you know, health crisis in

265
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,680
the family, you know, all kinds
of things that we all go through

266
00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:38,280
in life.
I'm sort of 1 to sit back and

267
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,200
sort of draw in, you know,
what's really happening, not be

268
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,600
afraid to, you know, to look at
it and with that to get very

269
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,000
constructive about it, you know,
so to sort of take the the

270
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,880
actually what's happening and be
really constructive about OK,

271
00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:56,760
now what do we need to do?
Right.

272
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:03,480
And so, and, and that what do we
need to do now is born from

273
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,520
reality.
And so, you know, so to use

274
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,320
Pixar, which is a good example,
I mean, and you know, I tell the

275
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,640
story in the book and it's true.
You know, I, I, I knew Pixar had

276
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,480
problems.
I really didn't understand the

277
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,760
extent of their problems.
You know, they, they, they

278
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:18,680
really was much worse than I
thought.

279
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:22,840
I mean, none of its businesses
had any promise at all.

280
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,680
It was making software and it it
made these sophisticated

281
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,400
machines for, for putting, you
know, film, I mean, computer

282
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,520
images on film.
It was making that, you know,

283
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,840
this sort of Toy Story project.
But even that was with the

284
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,840
Disney company that has sort of
tied up Pixar and animation.

285
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,560
Financially particularly right?
Actually for like a dozen years.

286
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,960
And so you could look at that
and say, even if this film is

287
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,640
really successful, you know,
Pixar's not going to make

288
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,720
anything from it.
And so there was no hope.

289
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,760
There was no kind of way out of
this box.

290
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,120
And I came home and I told
Hillary, I said, you know, I, I

291
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,600
really think I've, I've made the
biggest mistake of my career.

292
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,520
I don't think this company has a
chance, you know, because I, I'm

293
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,960
really, I'm like looking at the
facts now, those facts were

294
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:10,360
correct.
So the, the, the businesses that

295
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,000
I thought have no hope had no
hope.

296
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,280
So it, it wasn't like there was
a surprise upside.

297
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,280
They, it, it really didn't
materialize, You know, it sold

298
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,680
famously rendering software to
studios that were doing computer

299
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,080
animation.
Great unbelievable software.

300
00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:33,280
The the studios really needed
it, but there was like 14 of

301
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,280
them.
And so, you know, you couldn't

302
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,640
see a market outside of that.
I mean, how many people are

303
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,520
really doing, you know, super
high end computer animation, you

304
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,520
know, in, in 1995, a few special
effects studios are doing it.

305
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,560
That's it.
So you, you could have a, you

306
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,320
know, small business that keeps
10 people busy, but you can't,

307
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:51,520
you know, build a company on
that.

308
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,720
And so, and then animation was
weird because now I'm learning

309
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,960
about the animation business,
which I didn't really understand

310
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,360
before.
And I'm realizing that literally

311
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,640
no company in history succeeded
in the animated feature film

312
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,960
business.
Walt Disney, you know, this came

313
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,120
close, but he was on the edge of
bankruptcy all the time, all the

314
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,360
time, all the time.
By this time, I was reading the

315
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,320
books, I was going to the
museums.

316
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:21,320
I understood a lot about Disney
in the 1920s and 1930s and I

317
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,720
could see that they couldn't
pave the way that Pixar was

318
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:27,760
ostensibly, you know, trying to
do.

319
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,240
So Walt Disney diversified.
He, he created, bought land to

320
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,120
to create the Disney World and,
and he went into television, he

321
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,440
went into live action film.
He had to diversify to protect

322
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,120
himself from the ups and downs
of anime.

323
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,320
So that's literally the business
worth facing.

324
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,960
But, and I was the person, you
know, I went to Steve and I

325
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,440
said, I don't see much of a
chance for this company.

326
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,760
But if there is a chance, it's
in animation and it's a very

327
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,440
small one and no one's going to
believe that we can do it

328
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,960
because no one's ever done it.
And so that led to, and Steve

329
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:02,200
was the same way, by the way,
it's it's interesting.

330
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:07,800
I mean, he also was really faced
like he wanted to know, like,

331
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,880
just like me, you know, like
what, what we were really up

332
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,680
against, you know, he, he wasn't
someone that you have to sort of

333
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,760
like pretend that things were
better than they were, you know,

334
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,680
he, he, he, he, he wanted to
know.

335
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:27,400
And, and so from that reality,
we started to build this plan.

336
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,040
And, and even though that plan
was was a long shot, you know,

337
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,160
it was a launch, but it still
was a plan.

338
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,680
And so that is sort of how I
tackle and tackle, you know, a

339
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,920
lot of things.
This is what we're up against.

340
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:44,120
This is our plan.
Probably won't work, but let's

341
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:46,440
go for it and then really go for
it.

342
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:49,360
Yeah, and it's a real amazing
story.

343
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:53,240
It's a really amazing story of
hope and almost David and

344
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,760
Goliath type of type of aspect,
you know, because the Disney

345
00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,080
company at the time and you
know, again, context does matter

346
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,240
is experiencing the golden age
of Disney, you know, Jeffrey

347
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,600
Katzenberg and Michael Eisner
and Joe Roth and and all those

348
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,360
guys that you that you
mentioned, Peter Schneider

349
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,200
Schneider.
Yeah, Peter.

350
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,200
You know, they, they, they, they
brought in, they ushered in some

351
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,440
of Disney's most remarkable
movies.

352
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,120
And here comes a tech company,
really a tech company in San

353
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:24,720
Francisco out of Hollywood, out
of the scene.

354
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:30,080
You know, that that is actually,
you know, fighting not to exist.

355
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,280
I guess kind of to exist for
like could just make its next

356
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,560
movie to be able to turn a
profit, to be able to tell Steve

357
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,400
Jobs who put $50 million into,
hey, it's going to take you out

358
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,240
25 years to get your money back
at this pace because you know

359
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,920
what I mean, They're taking X
percent of the revenue, 8090% of

360
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,400
the revenue.
And, you know, best of luck.

361
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,480
This how Hollywood works.
Welcome to Hollywood, Steve

362
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,400
Jobs.
You know, and and you turn that

363
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,000
in and you turn that into
something else.

364
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,720
Yeah, though that's, that's
exactly what it was by the way,

365
00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,080
I felt I fought this dynamic my
whole career because when I when

366
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,920
I came out to Zealous Valley in
1980's, the whole thing was

367
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,680
David versus Goliath, right?
So it was startup companies were

368
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,880
trying to break into industries.
And at the time it was more like

369
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,400
going up against like IBM and
dating on these huge and Kodak

370
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,600
and Canon and these like huge
monolithic companies that

371
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,440
existed in on the East Coast and
in Tokyo or Japan and other

372
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,040
places.
And so we were, I was, I spent

373
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,800
my career basically
representing, you know, the

374
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,840
startups trying to break into
those worlds.

375
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,520
And the the bad news is that
those are really big, strong,

376
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,360
powerful companies.
And the good news is that they

377
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:41,760
don't take you seriously.
And so they actually don't

378
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,480
believe that you can do it.
And so you have to be pretty

379
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,320
relentless about it.
But, you know, their size and

380
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,360
success almost becomes your
advantage because, you know,

381
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,960
you're like a family on the side
of the elephant and they don't,

382
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,880
they think they can swat you off
until it's too late, until you

383
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,720
know, you're actually there.
And we lived in fear every day

384
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,160
that the that Disney would just
wipe Pixar off the map by

385
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,000
learning computer animation.
I think until it really

386
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,040
happened, they didn't actually
think it was possible.

387
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,320
And so, you know, we're just
chugging along.

388
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,840
One reason, by the way, I kind
of lament a little bit.

389
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,720
So it could that work the way
because it's reversed.

390
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,880
So now the establishment, you
know it's Goliath.

391
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,760
Yeah.
And well, I think that's a it's

392
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,920
a tribute to its success.
I think it's a shame in terms

393
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,800
of, you know, as I lost it, lost
that, you know, sort of like

394
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,280
that, that spirit a a little bit
that, you know, so it's got too

395
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,440
much to defend.
So it's a different vibe now.

396
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,080
Yeah, and it's really
interesting because I, I did a

397
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,640
very interesting podcast episode
the other day with a gentleman

398
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,160
named Tim Pickens, who's a
propulsion engineer.

399
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:56,400
And he was, he's worked on some
of the 1st commercial as in

400
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,560
privatized crafts that ever got
launched to space.

401
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,880
And he had some very, very
interesting and cool stories.

402
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,040
But one thing that that that he
and I were talking about was

403
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,600
there's this fun they were
talking about.

404
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,080
There's a spirit that, that,
that, that America embodied of

405
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:19,120
intelligence, passion and fun.
And like you kind of stick all

406
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:22,560
those together and, and, and,
and all of them do potentially

407
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,760
have a little bit of a darker
aspect to them or darker side of

408
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,400
them where, you know, the fun
could turn into something a

409
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,760
little bit more malicious or
malevolent.

410
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,880
And the, and the intelligence
could turn a little bit into

411
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,880
haughtiness or a little bit
into, into something else.

412
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,600
And, and the lines are
extremely, extremely blurry.

413
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,000
And so I mean, it's very hard to
take a company, for example, and

414
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,920
just throwing out, you know,
open AI growing at the rate that

415
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,600
they grow with the, you know,
with the money that's being

416
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,120
injected in them.
You know, it's, I don't know how

417
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,400
anyone would be hypothetically
able to maintain that same kind

418
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,840
of spirit, you know, that
wholesome, youthful spirit that

419
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,760
that requires an enormous amount
of intentionality.

420
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,520
You said with Pixar, you know,
you had a team of leaders that

421
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,000
that embody this kind of spirit
and that everyone else was able

422
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,600
to kind of just draw from that.
But then as the company gets

423
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,560
bigger, you have the problem of,
hey, I have to scale, I have to

424
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,120
scale values.
How do you scale values?

425
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:19,040
You know, I mean, it's, it's,
it's really interesting.

426
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,600
I think you're right on the
money and I think it is very

427
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,200
hard and I think it is a shame
because I think the other thing

428
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,440
it also, I think it's part of
the cultural or even the

429
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,280
spiritual challenge that we
have.

430
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:39,600
It also dehumanizes us.
And so when we feel a loss of a

431
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,160
sort of a loss of autonomy, a
loss of contribution, when we

432
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,640
feel too much of A cog and a big
machine kind of a thing, we not

433
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,680
only lose our humor, we lose our
our sort of sense of purpose

434
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,440
even, you know, and I think I
agree with you.

435
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,680
I, I'm not in those companies,
but I think that growing at that

436
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,160
rate is very, very chaotic.
And my, I imagine it's like

437
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,240
living in a storm and it's very
hard to live in a storm.

438
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,600
You know, storms should be
occasional like, you know,

439
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,800
hurricanes in Florida need to be
like once every two years or

440
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,560
something like that.
But you know, if they're too

441
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,720
often, it's, it's, it's too
chaotic.

442
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,160
You know, you lose stability
And, and I think there's

443
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:21,680
probably struggling with
stability.

444
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,480
That's the inside information.
That would just be my guess.

445
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,840
As a as a home owner paying home
owner insurance, that's about 7

446
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,560
times what my father in New York
is paying.

447
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:34,680
I, I could confirm that that is
that is certainly the case.

448
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,640
Yeah.
But yeah, I, I think that I

449
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:38,760
think that there's something
there.

450
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,560
There was, there was also a
spirit and, and I wanted to

451
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,400
actually, we're going to talk
about this a little bit more

452
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,840
after.
I want to stick on this on, on,

453
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,000
on the Pixar material a little
bit more, if that's OK.

454
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:56,200
Yeah, negotiating, negotiating
as a little guy with Disney.

455
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,200
You've said that you've had
experience.

456
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,800
You mentioned, of course, being
the underdog forever, you know,

457
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:04,440
and being the the fly by the
side of the elephant.

458
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,360
I guess 1 enormous benefit that
you have is that you're new to

459
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:12,920
the animation world and the and
the entertainment world.

460
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,160
And so you were you, were you at
all?

461
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,000
What's the word by the presences
of the people that you were

462
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,520
negotiating with and dealing
with?

463
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,680
Or did you feel, I feel like I'm
new to the game.

464
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,120
I've done this before.
I've had no, you know, and, and

465
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:30,560
and, and this is, this is just
another round of a familiar

466
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,480
sport that I'm used to sparring
in.

467
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:38,840
Well, neither.
I think I, I, I certainly not

468
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,240
really.
Oh, you know, there's just not a

469
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:45,920
game I'm just going to do this.
So I think that in at Pixar and

470
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:51,320
working with Steve and, and, and
startups and, and generally we

471
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,960
took negotiation, you know, that
negotiation we did with Disney

472
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,360
and without a company very, very
seriously.

473
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,280
And so nothing about it was
cavalier.

474
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,360
Nothing about it was, you know,
like shooting from the from the

475
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:08,800
hip or something like that.
And so we saw it as a, a, a

476
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,600
problem to analyze.
And so we would very extensive.

477
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,360
And this is another example of
like seeing things for what they

478
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:20,280
are, you know, so the first
thing in the negotiation to

479
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,360
understand, and it's, it's a
soft thing.

480
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:26,080
So it's not easy to understand,
but is what's your leverage,

481
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:28,280
right?
What is your, your relative

482
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,840
power in that in, in that
negotiation, right?

483
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,000
Where can you seek it?
Where can you find it?

484
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,600
Right?
So an example of this, like you

485
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,120
could say that Pixar had was
tied up for 12 years by

486
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:42,360
contract.
So we had no leverage, right?

487
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:47,640
None, none whatsoever.
But we learned that in, in, in

488
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,600
Hollywood, success is leverage.
And so there there, there's a

489
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,960
mentality there that if you've
had a success, a hit record, a

490
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,640
hit book, in our case, a hit
movie, that it gives you

491
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,200
leverage at the table.
And you could say, well, why

492
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,360
it's stupid because Disney has
tied you up for 12 years, you

493
00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:10,200
whether you're success or or
failure.

494
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,120
So why should they pay attention
to you if you've had success or

495
00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:17,320
the reason because Hollywood,
Hollywood just disturbed

496
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,960
Hollywood culture is it wants to
cultivate good relationships

497
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:27,440
with sources of success, sources
of good quality entertainment,

498
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,280
whatever form it is.
And so and so that gives you

499
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,880
some leverage.
And it wasn't obvious to us at

500
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,000
first because we're like, ah,
man, there's a contract.

501
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,960
There's nothing we can do about
it, you know, And so that's just

502
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,200
one example.
So we would dissect the

503
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,320
situation to, you know, to
understand what is the leverage

504
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,920
that we can have and then what
what can we do with that

505
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,120
leverage.
And so that's one part of it.

506
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,880
And then the other side of the
equation is what do we need, you

507
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,240
know?
What do you want from them?

508
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,080
What do we need in this
negotiation?

509
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,120
And so, you know, you, you have
different scenarios for that.

510
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:03,040
You, you can have a pie in the
sky, you know, I want

511
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,880
everything, but you never get
everything.

512
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,360
And so it comes down to like,
where's the line of that?

513
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:14,440
The what we need that if we go,
you know, that we need this line

514
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,880
in order to, to, to accomplish,
you know, our goals.

515
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,920
And if we can't accomplish our
goals, it just might not be

516
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,440
worth it to us.
And so we and I spend quite a

517
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,360
bit of time in the book on this,
but we, we, so it's a very

518
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:32,640
deeply thoughtful process.
So by the time we go into the

519
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,640
negotiation, we, we are very
prepared.

520
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,080
And so that's one part of it.
And the other part of it is and,

521
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,560
and this is just a tactic.
So I I'm not saying it's good

522
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,800
for all situations, but at least
the way Steve and I approached,

523
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,280
there is no Plan B.
No Plan B.

524
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,120
No.
Plans Gary, Steve Jobs as as

525
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:54,320
you've.
Gone to a negotiation with the

526
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,120
Plan B, what Plan B is you've
basically negotiating with

527
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:01,760
yourself and you've realized
that, right?

528
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,480
You know, like, OK, plan A
doesn't work I'm going to take

529
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:05,960
Plan B.
You've already done the

530
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,480
negotiation for the others, for
the other people.

531
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:16,440
And, and so we would tend to be
just this is it, this is what we

532
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,440
need, this is what we want.
And like, it's like the Holy

533
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,960
Grail, like like there's
nothing.

534
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,040
It's sacred.
You know, this is it, this is

535
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,280
what we want.
And we would go into negotiation

536
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,720
like that.
And, and then when we get pushed

537
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,080
back or, or, or something like
that, only then do we consider,

538
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,840
you know, whether we might back
off, you know, from plan A.

539
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,480
So it's like we put ourselves
into pain, you know, by having

540
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:44,040
to being so convinced about plan
A and I think this produces a

541
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,360
better result.
It it it can be a little

542
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,160
painful, but and these complex
negotiations get dicey.

543
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,320
You know, as I described, you
know, we did walk away from a

544
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,960
negotiation with Disney that
walking away from it really

545
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,280
could have destroyed Pixar.
I mean, it was like insane, you

546
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,240
know, to walk away from it, you
know, but there was a line and

547
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,080
we were like, you know, we're
just going to have to take off

548
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,040
chances here.
So again, I you know, you have

549
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,680
to do, there's no rules about
it.

550
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,920
You know you you just have to
evaluate each situation.

551
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,960
Can I add your opinion and
speculation?

552
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,520
And you don't have to answer
this if you don't want to at

553
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:19,840
all, by the way.
No pressure, of course.

554
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,560
Do you think that Steve didn't
make the deal because he didn't

555
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,840
like dealing with Michael Eisner
and and he dealt with Bob Iger

556
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,400
in a much more collaborative
kind of way that he felt was

557
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,680
more like that?
Because I've read that in a

558
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,480
couple of counts but accounts,
but that's from a journalist's

559
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,400
perspective.
And I well, there's two deals

560
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,040
that I'm talking about.
The one you were talking about

561
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,960
is when Disney bought Pixar.
The one that I've been talking

562
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,640
about is the one where.
You renegotiated.

563
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,240
The pictures, because that
renegotiated contract was the

564
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,880
contract, the deal that put
Pixar on the map.

565
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,760
That was the one that changed
everything for Pixar.

566
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:03,320
So that happened with Michael
Eisner and I was forever

567
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,800
grateful to Michael Eisner for
that because he doing it.

568
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,920
Eisner sort of got a reputation
for sort of taking his eye off

569
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,400
the ball of animation at Disney.
You know, I wasn't there at

570
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,960
Disney, you know, to that is
correct or not, but he

571
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,520
definitely got a reputation for
that.

572
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,200
A couple of big swings in the
non animation department that I

573
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,320
don't think worked quite as well
as you would have hoped.

574
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:28,880
That, that you know, that's
right.

575
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,960
So I think when it came time to
the to, to Pixar, to the

576
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,720
acquisition of Pixar by Disney,
I think it's correct.

577
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,000
I don't think Steve would have
done that with, I think it'd be

578
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,960
much harder to have done with
Michael Eisner.

579
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,200
And the change of regime there
definitely helped to make that

580
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,600
possible.
But the first deal that we did,

581
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,560
which in some ways was the
Pivotal 1, Michael Eliza

582
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,320
definitely did that.
I'm, I'm actually this is this

583
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,760
is so funny that I'm talking to
you about this, but there's a

584
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,200
there's a great book I read
called Disney War by James

585
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,240
Stewart.
Yeah, awesome book.

586
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,160
You read it.
No, but I know about it.

587
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,080
Yeah, it's a phenomenal book.
It's really it it it's a guy.

588
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,880
It's a textbook on one of the
coolest, one of the coolest

589
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,440
companies, you know, and all the
background.

590
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,880
And one thing that James Stewart
says that Eisner said was I

591
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,960
wouldn't be surprised if I was
the last creative executive in

592
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,760
Hollywood and and, you know, and
Bob Iger, you know, is a

593
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,680
businessman.
And since then, Bob Shay Peck

594
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,960
and man, I'm blinking his name
and I'm it's going to drive me

595
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,200
crazy.
I remember in a minute, but the

596
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,560
newest the newest CEO Josh
tomorrow are both both came from

597
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,960
parks and famously Dana Walden,
who is head of pictures and

598
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,360
entertainment.
A little bit more of a creative

599
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,040
job was Pat.
What you know is passed over.

600
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,320
And one thing that you discussed
in the book is your business

601
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,560
decision, a thoughtful business
decision made by the board and

602
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:57,840
Steve and everyone to give
creative control over to you

603
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,720
know, to the creative team.
And you can afford to do such a

604
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,360
thing as a startup.
You could do afford to do such a

605
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,600
thing as a little company with
like like a nimble company like

606
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,640
Pixar bouncing around.
What do you think of you know,

607
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,320
do do you think it's that hard
to do because you're a

608
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,040
corporation?
You think there's a certain risk

609
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,280
aversion in business.
What do you think is the is the

610
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,480
is the because this one was full
circle, right?

611
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,360
Because of what we're talking
about over here are are

612
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,880
decisions that are being made.
Listen, there's no coincidence

613
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,360
that the main revenue that
Disney gets, that that's

614
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,320
reliable year after year is the
parks.

615
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,360
There's no question that the
person that's going to run the

616
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,320
show for the shareholders has to
be the face of the person who

617
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:37,600
understands the business the
most.

618
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:38,960
Yeah.
But what did the company come

619
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,480
down to, you know, and that and
that really is what the question

620
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,480
is.
Well, I think there's no fixed

621
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:45,840
answer to it.
Pixar.

622
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:52,160
When Pixar did that, I think
that it was a crazy bet and, and

623
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,760
I think there were good reasons
for studios to not do that.

624
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,840
But you know, it is almost like,
you know, Pixar had sort of less

625
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,560
to lose.
We, we were, you know, high,

626
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,080
high risk, high, high reward.
And so we, we made this bet, you

627
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,000
know, deliberately.
I, I can't say that, that I

628
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,680
even, I say this in the book,
you know, I can't say that's the

629
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,560
best decision for every company
at it.

630
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,760
You know, at every time there
are very good reasons for

631
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,360
executives to maintain some
controls over creative

632
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,480
decisions, but I think it's a
balance that every company and

633
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,720
situation has to find for
themselves.

634
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,640
You know, they decided to bet it
all on the people.

635
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,640
And, you know, and we had John
Masseter and Andrew Stanton and

636
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:37,040
Pete Doctor and Brad Bird who
made Incredibles and Toy Story

637
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,840
and, and, and Finding Nemo and
up.

638
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,000
And so, you know, that was good.
That was a good bet.

639
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,120
And but there are there are all
good creative people at all

640
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,000
these places.
So I think every situation has

641
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,760
to find it's it's it's balance.
I'm going to say that's the only

642
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,560
way to do it, but it's the way
that we did it.

643
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,040
Sure, sure.
Yeah.

644
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,640
And, and, you know, the other
side, of course, is that there

645
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,840
is a corporate responsibility to
shareholders.

646
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,000
And like we mentioned earlier,
Walt Disney, when he was putting

647
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,800
movies first, was constantly
bankrupt.

648
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,960
You know, I mean, how does
Hollywood even respond when

649
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,480
every time you take one of these
creative risks, you're on the

650
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,239
verge of break, you're on the
verge of bankruptcy?

651
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,600
You know, it's crazy.
Yeah.

652
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,120
And I think that's the balance
in in, in the creative world in

653
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,159
general, in music and books and
everything like that.

654
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,760
It's a balance between how how
much do you let the creators run

655
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,760
with it and and how much do you
sort of try to take control and

656
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,880
bring some sort of executive
wisdom to it.

657
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,159
Yeah, certainly.
So I teach high school English

658
00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:34,760
for the last four years.
Great.

659
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,360
And yeah, it's a lot of fun.
I teach in North Miami Beach and

660
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,719
I do it for 2-3 hours a day,
four or five days a week.

661
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,360
And it's wonderful.
I, I, it's one of, it's one of

662
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,760
the highlights of my life and
I'm very happy to be able to do

663
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,400
it and.
One thing to teach, Sorry.

664
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:50,880
What's your favorite book to
teach?

665
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,040
That's a great question.
It depends on the class.

666
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,160
It depends on the class I had.
I struggle with my itinerary

667
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,560
because I'm throwing away
lessons so often.

668
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,440
I can't keep up with it, you
know, and because, you know, one

669
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,080
thing I've learned is that you
can't control the direction of

670
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,680
the stream, but you can kind of
go with it.

671
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,280
And, you know, you could kind of
channel everyone's, you know,

672
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,840
what everyone's flow is.
And listen, what 1 you know, I

673
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,760
mean, my, my, my freshman from
four years ago are seniors now,

674
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,440
and I've showed them some of
their writing from when they're

675
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,120
a freshman and they can't even
believe that they're the same

676
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:29,200
people.
And.

677
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,560
It's amazing.
But one thing that that that I

678
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,720
ask everyone every year, there's
a couple of things that I always

679
00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:37,280
come back to that always that
always important to me to teach.

680
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,960
And that is if you woke up
tomorrow with all the money in

681
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,440
the world, you know, and what
are you going to do for the rest

682
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,960
of your life?
And then the next question, and

683
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,280
I had them right on the, on the,
and then they have to turn the

684
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:51,880
page over.
The next question is, now that

685
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,440
you've told me what you've done
for the first five years or 10

686
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,560
years, what are you going to do
for the rest of your life after

687
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,800
that?
You know, because everyone talks

688
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,400
about going on vacation and
owning other houses and boats

689
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,320
and whatever.
And, and there's a question of

690
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,080
there's a real question of what,
what am I here for?

691
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:09,960
What's the, what's the, what's
the point of my life?

692
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,800
What, what, what, what, what,
what and, and, and, and you can

693
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,520
tell me it's to provide for my
family and I and I and I

694
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,680
wholeheartedly accept that.
In what, in what manner?

695
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,000
In what direction?
How do I, how do I go about

696
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,480
this?
So you found yourself at a point

697
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,680
in your life where you got a lot
to go.

698
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,280
Oh, you got a long way to go and
you can hypothetically ride off

699
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,200
into the sunset and do whatever
you want.

700
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,760
And you're kind of confronted in
real time with this question of

701
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,200
now what?
I got a whole life.

702
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,400
Yes.
Well, remind me to ask you that

703
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,280
question at the end of this
conversation, by the way.

704
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,800
OK, Yeah, you got that.
And I would put it, I think I

705
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,920
put it slightly differently.
I don't think I was confronted

706
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,240
with that question.
I think that most people don't

707
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:56,000
ask that question.
You know, I live in Silicon

708
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,920
Valley where there's a lot of
success.

709
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,760
Startups have turned into Google
and Facebook and Apple and that

710
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,520
kind of stuff.
And I think the difference with

711
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,440
me is that I did ask that
question.

712
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,840
I think you're asking that
question of your, your, your

713
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,440
high school students is
fantastic, but I think most

714
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,280
people don't are they just want
to keep going, right?

715
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,480
So, you know, and so most people
even in my position didn't ask

716
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,720
the question.
They just kept doing more.

717
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,920
You know, I'm going to do
another company, another

718
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,680
startup, another IPO, another
venture capital fund.

719
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,240
You know, I want it to be bigger
and stronger and better and I

720
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:33,720
want to keep this this thing
rolling that's the null.

721
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:40,120
And so I think the fact that I
asked it makes me kind of weird

722
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:45,240
or different and sort of thing.
And I had been asking myself

723
00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:50,120
this question for a long time.
And so, you know, I was at

724
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,320
Harvard Law School and when I
was 23 and I was at Harvard

725
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,640
Square and used book stops, used
book shops, like looking at used

726
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,920
books on like meditation and,
and, and you know, I was.

727
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,560
You're always interested.
Pardon.

728
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,280
You're always interested in
that, in that.

729
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:06,440
Spiritual work, always
interested.

730
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,840
You know, I was 28, you know,
like now I've got, you know, a a

731
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,800
newborn and a three-year old and
you know, I'm travelling on a

732
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,200
plane for business in a reading
philosophy and I have a journal

733
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,880
that I could get real.
And it's the, you know, it's the

734
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:22,200
sort of understand about
reality.

735
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,600
I was on this quest for a long
time and it's one of the reasons

736
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,200
that I was sort of able to make
changes in my career.

737
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,160
And one of the reasons that I
was able to work with Steve is

738
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:39,480
because I didn't self identify
with with I didn't make my work

739
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,920
my life.
I understood that these were two

740
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,960
different things, you know, and
that is very easy to get caught

741
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,320
in the trap of self identifying
as I'm a lawyer, I'm an

742
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,880
executive, I'm successful.
You know, I'm in the animated

743
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,680
feature film business.
Isn't that cool?

744
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,760
You know, it is cool, but it's
not my life.

745
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,480
It's not me.
I really understood this.

746
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,120
You know, I understood that
you're in the business of

747
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,440
selling medical equipment,
right?

748
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,160
And there are no red carpets in
that, right?

749
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,440
You don't go to film premieres
and, you know, you dress up, you

750
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,640
dress up like that.
So it's not as sexy as, you

751
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,200
know, what you think of as
Hollywood.

752
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,760
But I always understood that
that is a false difference, that

753
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,960
there's no difference.
You know, the fact that it's

754
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,920
animated feature films or
selling medical equipment or

755
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,280
having a corner grocery store
or, or whatever it is, is, is

756
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,680
not the defining factor.
And so I was always able to sort

757
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:43,400
of distance myself, you know,
from the from the substance of

758
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:49,440
the success and understand that
my life would, was was not

759
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:55,080
defined by that.
And this was so it was easy for

760
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,360
me.
You know, it's sort of when I'd

761
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,800
had a good run, be able to say I
don't really need to do this

762
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,480
anymore, You know, what shall I
do?

763
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:10,160
Now, answering that wasn't easy,
but I did have this very strong

764
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,320
pulse to go keep answering the
question that I asked when I was

765
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,400
23 and 28, which is like
basically, what are we here for?

766
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,520
What is the meaning of life?
You know, what is this?

767
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,600
What, what is this about, right?
What is the, the, the sort of

768
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,640
deep quest, you know, that we're
on?

769
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,160
I was pretty convinced that the
answers lied in, in some kind of

770
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:36,680
spiritual undertaking in life.
And I, I and so, well, I won't

771
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,640
get into that more right now,
but that's, that's where I found

772
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,080
myself.
And so I was like, that's the

773
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:43,360
thing that I want to go figure
out.

774
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,320
Yeah, yeah.
I would love to start talking

775
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,760
about this or or at least dip
our toes into it, because one

776
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,360
thing that I've noticed and I've
spoken to a lot of people about

777
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,360
recently is that is that the
generate I I don't really know

778
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,360
what to call them, but let's say
that 20 and unders or 21 and

779
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,920
unders and I have younger
siblings that are that this age.

780
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,720
I have brother in law's.
I have students that are this

781
00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:09,240
age.
I've found that a lot of people

782
00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:13,160
are disconnecting from the
things that have been very

783
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,920
harmful to my generation.
For example, I like social media

784
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,920
and like avoiding in whatever
capacity, spirituality, religion

785
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,400
and saying that, you know, if
you can't put on a chart, then

786
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,360
it doesn't, it's not anything
that's worth looking at.

787
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:27,480
And they're rejecting that
notion.

788
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,920
Not only they're rejecting that
notion, they're returning to

789
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,520
what's interesting.
They're returning to movie

790
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,880
theaters, they're putting their
phones away on a more regular

791
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,560
basis.
They're, they're, they're,

792
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,280
they're, they're more inclined
to go attend live music concerts

793
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,000
and stuff like that.
Then, then, then a lot of my

794
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,720
generation growing up has, I
think, or a lot of people, let's

795
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:47,520
say for those 10 years between
the age of 20 and 30 that are,

796
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,960
you know, so the people that are
born from the early 2000s to

797
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:58,080
2010, I would say, you know,
they there, there, there,

798
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,280
there's a there's a revival.
I believe in, in intentionality

799
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,040
and awareness and spirituality.
I hope that's going on around

800
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,880
the world.
And I think that one of the

801
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,840
reasons why was because my
generation is experiencing such

802
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,600
a challenging time and
experiencing such hardships with

803
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,840
social media addiction and with
a lack of meaning and with a

804
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,360
lack of, you know, like, and
what's really interesting, and I

805
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:22,960
don't know if you're aware of
the gentleman named Scott

806
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,800
Galloway, who's at NYU is, is a
business professor there.

807
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,240
He's been on this tour talking
about how young, how young men

808
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,160
have very little meaning in
their lives.

809
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,320
And, and, and, and, and this is,
and this, and this is an

810
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,360
enormous challenge.
And I believe and, and you know,

811
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,440
I've been preaching on the
podcast as much as possible,

812
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,600
embodied experiences, community
spiritual experiences, these are

813
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,960
all things that are waiting for
us, you know, but these are the

814
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,280
things that, that, that, that,
that are right here and that

815
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,480
we're living for.
So, and for some reason, for

816
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,600
many years, there was a stigma
to say that you're spiritual.

817
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,680
There was a stigma to saying
that you're religious, you

818
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,320
believe in God or that you
believe in force of the

819
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,680
universe.
And now it seems it feels like

820
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,200
that's giving way.
That's that's becoming a little

821
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,440
bit more acceptable.
So I would love to hear a little

822
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,200
bit more about your and by the
way, as far as you're getting

823
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,760
real journal, I had my own
variation called dear me letters

824
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,080
where I would often write dear
me and I wouldn't know what I'd

825
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,240
write about.
I just date it.

826
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:23,920
And then I would just start
typing.

827
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,840
I'd be like, I feel tense.
It could be.

828
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,560
And then I'll just write.
And I often found that my

829
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,880
fingers were typing things that
my, my, the front that that, you

830
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,280
know, my consciousness wouldn't
allow myself to even admit to

831
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,600
myself or or bring forward.
So I think that this, this

832
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,160
combination of this variation of
meditation, spiritual practice,

833
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:48,840
whatever you want to call it is
going, is not only necessary

834
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,360
aspect to be happy and satisfied
in life.

835
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,120
It's kind of it's, it's, it's,
there's a revival of it now, I

836
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,480
hope.
And so perhaps you could, you

837
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,720
could tell me a little bit about
your spiritual experiences or

838
00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:01,720
thoughts or maybe philosophy's
perspective if you're, if you're

839
00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:03,520
interested.
That's all we could spend all

840
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,480
day on, but let's let's this is
my this is my favorite, you

841
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,800
know, my absolute favorite topic
that I've let's do it.

842
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,360
I'm thinking about.
And I've also, you know,

843
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,760
struggled with this, not
struggled with, but you're aware

844
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,880
that you're like words like
spiritual and consciousness, you

845
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,080
know, it's been like dirty
words, you know, this year, like

846
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,960
20 years ago, you know, that was
like, whoa, you know, it's like,

847
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:26,120
you know, so sort of some
mystical stuff.

848
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,440
And I sort of had to sort of
wade through all that and tried

849
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,920
my best to sort of not get stuck
on the words and, you know, and

850
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,000
stuff and, you know, sort of see
what's really going on.

851
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:39,240
And so without trying to sound
woo or hokey or, or anything

852
00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:41,960
like that, and remembering that
I'm still this guy in Silicon

853
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,560
Valley who loves innovation and,
and all this kind of stuff.

854
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,760
I, I, I've long believed.
And I, and I think there's

855
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,160
nothing that's deterred me from
this.

856
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:55,720
I think at the end of the day,
we are spiritual beings, whether

857
00:44:55,720 --> 00:45:00,120
we, we, we can, you know, it,
it, it, it means that there's,

858
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,560
that there's a, there's an arc
to our existence.

859
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,880
There's an there there, there's
a quality of mind, you know,

860
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:16,320
within us that once it reaches
to feel certain things, among

861
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,000
those things and top of mind of
those things is connection, you

862
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:25,600
know, love, friendship.
Awe is a big experience.

863
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,920
Awe is huge.
Awe is is something like that we

864
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,600
we've come to see these as sort
of soft things, right?

865
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,400
These are the things that we
sort of become secondary because

866
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:43,080
the material things wealth and
success and reputation and likes

867
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,320
and all that kind of stuff come
first.

868
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,960
So the one reason I got into
this space is because I think

869
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:54,840
there's a dissonance there that
has hurt an entire generation,

870
00:45:54,840 --> 00:46:00,800
right, including including mine,
and that the sidelining of

871
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,480
golden spiritual values or
something like that has caused a

872
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,960
lot of disconnection.
And we are suffering from it.

873
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:14,200
And, and, and I think actually
the hallmark of a, a sort of an

874
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:18,760
advanced or mature culture is
one that integrates both of

875
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,240
these things.
So it's not one that issues

876
00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:24,400
innovation and creativity and
prosperity and all the things we

877
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,480
need, you know, to produce the
amazing things that we have.

878
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:31,280
And it's not one that issues,
you know, sort of spirituality

879
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,720
and these softer things, but it
integrates both.

880
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,360
And this is a very difficult
thing because they they feel

881
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:39,960
like they push against each
other.

882
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,880
And so I'm thrilled that, you
know, people today, you know,

883
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,720
would, would, would have this
kind of awareness.

884
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:49,480
And it's 1.
You know, I used to say in my

885
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,880
talks that there's nothing
better in life than having a cup

886
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,520
of tea with a friend.
And it seems obvious or it

887
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:02,080
seems, you know, people sort of
can sort of get that, you know,

888
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,800
but I say, but what it means is
that you really have to show up

889
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,400
for it so hard to not show up
for it.

890
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:14,520
It's so hard to be it's so, I
mean, it's so easy to be there,

891
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,720
but not be there to be there,
but think, oh, there's something

892
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:21,040
better that I should be doing,
you know, to be there and not

893
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:25,080
pay attention, you know, to the
very, very human, you know,

894
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,720
connection.
That's that's that's happening.

895
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:31,520
And that is a skill.
And not only do I think we have

896
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,360
to cultivate and learn that
skill, I think that school is

897
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:39,040
going to become more important
in our future as AI and things

898
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,680
like that, you know, probably
start to be able to do more of

899
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,000
the things that, you know, sort
of that that we've been able to

900
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,680
do.
So, you know, underlying this, I

901
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,840
think it's, it's very deep
philosophy, you know, so, so I

902
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,400
think like, you know, I've gone
very deeply into the world of

903
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,800
philosophy, Eastern philosophy,
I studied Kabbalah philosophy at

904
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,080
the, you know, the very
beginning of all this.

905
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,800
And at the root of these
philosophies is, is the idea.

906
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,160
It's essentially of like, don't
take the surface reality

907
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,720
seriously.
You know, living in a kind of

908
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:18,400
story that is created by your
circumstances and your culture

909
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,000
and what's happening around you
and behind it is something

910
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,960
deeper.
And you want to try to connect

911
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,040
with that as well as live in the
world that you're in.

912
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,080
And this is the beauty of that
of, of, of that philosophy.

913
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,400
It's not an escape from the
world you're in, but it's a

914
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,280
recognition that there's
something out there that that's,

915
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,960
that, that that's grounding,
that's deeper, that goes beyond

916
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,480
the circumstances of the
immediate moment.

917
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,800
And I think if you can reach and
find that it's it'll change your

918
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,720
experience.
Yeah.

919
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:52,120
And I think that a lot of times
all it really takes is to really

920
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:57,280
be present in a moment.
It, it does, but this is the,

921
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,800
the, the thing about this is
very easy to say.

922
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,760
So people will say, you know, be
present, be mindful, be this, be

923
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,800
that, right?
And so, but it requires, it's a

924
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:13,760
discipline that has to be
cultivated because the mind is

925
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,200
very tricky.
You know, the, the, the mind

926
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,680
will say, oh, I want to be
present, but it's anything but

927
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,360
present.
Yeah, you know, it's, I'm aware

928
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,400
of that.
You know, like what it's really

929
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,080
hard is I'm worrying about this
problem.

930
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:30,320
I'm worrying about that.
And so and so how do we, in

931
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,000
order to be present, so to
speak, or, you know, we, we have

932
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,760
to sort of like bring the mind
down a little bit.

933
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,040
You know, we, we have to give
the mind perspective, allow it

934
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,600
to, to, to sort of rest.
Yeah.

935
00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:48,880
And that is, that takes some,
some effort, you know, some

936
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,240
work, it's a practice.
And so, you know, I start my day

937
00:49:53,240 --> 00:49:57,240
with, you know, we, we, we have
a little meditation room at home

938
00:49:57,240 --> 00:50:00,240
with some sort of biographies in
it, you know, kind of a thing

939
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,000
and somebody to look at an
iconography, whatever it may be,

940
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,520
the picture of a teacher or the
picture of a Buddha or, or, or

941
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,960
something like that.
I'm like, well, the iconography

942
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,880
itself is just junk.
I mean, it's a piece of metal or

943
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,440
it's, or it's a piece of paper,
right?

944
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,520
Or something like that.
But it represents what it

945
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,360
represents is something beyond,
you know where you are in this

946
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,760
immediate moment.
So when you connect with it,

947
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:27,000
you're reminding yourself, you
know, that there's a perspective

948
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,360
to be had on your life and your
moment that will help you throw

949
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,840
it.
And so, so when I start each

950
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:34,840
day, I connect with that
perspective.

951
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,640
And that's a practice that keeps
me in that space because every

952
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,800
day, every day, you know, even
just a 5 minutes, every day, I

953
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,120
come back to it.
I remind myself every day.

954
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:49,000
And so these kinds of rituals
or, or whatever we want to call

955
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,800
them, have a real potency in our
life.

956
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,440
And I think this is something
I've learned in that in, in, in

957
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,560
the last like 20 years doing
this, I used to think like, oh,

958
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,920
you can just think your way to
enlightenment or whatever it is.

959
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,520
You can just think your way to
happiness and Peace of Mind and

960
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,440
all those things.
And I don't think we can because

961
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:11,480
I tried and I recognized pretty
early on that it's actually a

962
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:16,640
way of being.
Yeah, yeah, I and it's it's it's

963
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:20,080
it's beautifully put.
It's beautifully put.

964
00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:24,760
I think that it's funny because
when I think of some of the most

965
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:30,800
transcendent experiences that
I've had, they weren't

966
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,600
necessarily something that I
intended to be that way.

967
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:39,520
So for example, you know, I, I
have, for example, very, very

968
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,600
vivid memories.
I lived in Seattle, WA for a

969
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:43,240
year.
I loved it there.

970
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:46,280
And I went through a particular
heartbreak over there and, you

971
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,560
know, particular context.
And at the time, I was a big

972
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:50,440
Springsteen nut, huge
Springsteen fan.

973
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,520
And especially the live shows
I'd find, I'd find, I'd listen

974
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,080
to hours and hours of his live
concerts that I can tell you a

975
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,440
set list from years to years.
And there's something about and

976
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,320
there's something about the way
that he related his relationship

977
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,960
to what I was experiencing.
And I'm listening to this while

978
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:10,040
I'm jogging and I'm going around
this park that is my comforts

979
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,280
play like comfort place, you
know, And there's a track by

980
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,520
Lake Washington by Magazine Park
and you go around and a couple

981
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,080
times around is a mile and and
I'm listening to this music and

982
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:23,480
I'm embody it.
My brain is off because I'm I'm

983
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,920
in the kind of the zone of
jogging, but I'm ABS I'm but I'm

984
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,320
sharing and I'm absolutely
having this interaction with

985
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,280
this Springsteen performance.
And he'll never know ever, you

986
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,680
know, that that that that a fire
Hershman, you know, at 20, at 23

987
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,880
years old, sitting there is
jogging around, connecting in a

988
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,480
most meaningful way.
But that moment was transcended

989
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:46,040
and I experienced a real, you
know, and and I'm curious

990
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,280
actually, what you think of this
kind of stuff as far as like

991
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,760
consciousness and out of body
experiences and stuff like that.

992
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:55,760
But I experience, you know, real
being beyond myself, rising,

993
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,240
rising above any particular
instant that I felt like was a

994
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:03,360
fry Hirschmann I was connected
to something that was far more

995
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,800
deep and far more at its root.
And I found that a lot of this

996
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,800
is like a muscle and a lot of
this is you have to exercise it.

997
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,680
Like you said, it took you 20
years to, to, to work at this,

998
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,400
but it's a muscle and it takes
exercise every single day and

999
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,880
some days feel better and some
days feel worse and some days

1000
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:20,880
more productive.
But then when you have that

1001
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,760
breakthrough moment and you
realize that I couldn't have had

1002
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,440
this breakthrough moment had I
not put in all that time before

1003
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:30,880
that, then that's when you start
to value the process of building

1004
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,760
muscle along the way, other than
just having that final goal that

1005
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,880
you're looking to achieve.
I think that's absolutely right.

1006
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,200
I mean, I think that people,
there are many, many people can

1007
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,640
have like what I would call like
a peak experience, right?

1008
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,520
So you can get it through
meditation, you can get it

1009
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:49,600
through drugs, you can get it
through, you know, an EDM

1010
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,320
concert.
That worked.

1011
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:55,760
I did one time.
And so and so I think people

1012
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,600
definitely experience it.
To me, it, it's like gives you

1013
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,720
like a little glimpse of, of,
of, of something that's sort of

1014
00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:03,840
beyond your immediate thing.
And when you see it, you know,

1015
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,440
wow, that, that, that really
feels good, right.

1016
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,320
And so then the question is
like, are you going to be sort

1017
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,320
of constantly on the hunt for
that peak experience, in which

1018
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,720
case you got to go jogging
through the park with Bruce

1019
00:54:13,720 --> 00:54:14,760
Springsteen playing in your
head?

1020
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:22,320
And the goal of the practice, I
think, is to steady the mind

1021
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,760
into that kind of space.
And so it's not necessarily to

1022
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,040
have like the, the peak
experience, that the peak

1023
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,080
experience is like the
motivation, you know, to realize

1024
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,800
that I should do something for
my life that sort of takes me

1025
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:38,240
beyond the immediacy of what's
happening and gives me a glimpse

1026
00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:41,200
of some other possibility.
I maybe I'm reading philosophy,

1027
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,720
maybe I'm doing meditation,
maybe I'm lighting a candle

1028
00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:46,400
every morning for, you know, but
I, I'm doing something that

1029
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,600
moves me beyond the, the, the
sort of immediacy of the moment,

1030
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:54,080
because that kind of grounding,
when you really feel it will

1031
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:58,120
transform experience that it
will give a perspective on, on

1032
00:54:58,120 --> 00:54:59,760
life.
You know, that's different.

1033
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,160
The greatest Buddhist
philosophers that I started are

1034
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:06,000
like, enlightenment is a change
in perspective.

1035
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,640
You know, it's not some place we
go.

1036
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,520
You know, we're not often
excluded from some land of

1037
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,960
enlightened beings.
And if if only we could get

1038
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,080
there.
It's a shift in perspective on

1039
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:22,400
where we are, right.
And that shift in perspective is

1040
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,600
what I'm talking about is just
sort of, you know, just

1041
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,880
connecting with that and, and
realizing that our views on

1042
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,920
things might be limited.
And so when we open our minds to

1043
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,880
other possibilities, then our
experience changing.

1044
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:39,320
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's amazing
work.

1045
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:42,240
And once you do it, you can't
undo it.

1046
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,880
You know, once you once you've
started and once you once you've

1047
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:46,880
had that experience of
enlightenment where you have

1048
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,040
that, Oh my God, realization
where your perception does

1049
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,840
shift.
You know, that's enough to that,

1050
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,440
that people remember that the
rest of their lives.

1051
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,520
You'll hear people talk about a
particular experience and they

1052
00:55:58,520 --> 00:55:59,480
don't know how to replicate it
again.

1053
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,720
And they're not to get back to
it again, but they'll, they'll

1054
00:56:01,720 --> 00:56:03,760
talk about it forever.
People recognize that.

1055
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,680
They recognize it, but what I'm
that that's true again, in, in,

1056
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:09,400
in terms of a particular
experience.

1057
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,960
But when you start to integrate
at the way that I'm talking

1058
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:17,440
about, the goal is to sort of
shift your perspective for the

1059
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,360
mundane.
That's the thing.

1060
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,960
It's not a hunt for peak
experience.

1061
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,720
It's like, what are you
experiencing right now?

1062
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,400
You know and when things are
hard and you know when your kids

1063
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,440
are sick or when you've.
Got So how do you do that?

1064
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,560
That's what that's one of these
things that are easier said than

1065
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,680
done.
But if you know and I don't

1066
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,640
know, the answer might be
everyone's different and I'm

1067
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:42,440
sure that that is a big part of
the answer.

1068
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:45,280
How do you?
How do you?

1069
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,160
How do you teach, you know,
unless it's a maturity thing?

1070
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:51,160
Is this an age thing?
Is it like, you know, like

1071
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,920
youths wasted on the youth and
kids are so busy running around

1072
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:55,920
and having fun that they're not,
you know, that they miss out on

1073
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:57,360
that and and then only.
After you.

1074
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,080
No, no, I think it's a sort of
lifelong learning thing.

1075
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,400
You know, I think sometimes we
sort of think like, oh, I got to

1076
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,520
the age of 21 or 25 and sort of
I'm growing up and I'm done.

1077
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:07,840
And I think that that's not
right.

1078
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,240
I think we've physically grown
up.

1079
00:57:09,240 --> 00:57:13,280
And, but I think our arc of
life, our arc of learning, our

1080
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:15,480
arc of, of the development is
just beginning.

1081
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:20,600
Because now the journey will
shift from the physical things

1082
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,840
of, you know, I've got to drop
develop my brain, you know,

1083
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:24,720
learn math and English and all
that kind of stuff.

1084
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,600
Now it will turn to, to more
sort of inner things, right?

1085
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:32,040
How do I transcend some of the
challenges, you know, from the

1086
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:33,880
past?
How I, how do I transcend some

1087
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,000
of these thoughts in my head
that drive me crazy from, you

1088
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:39,560
know, it's just a different kind
of learning.

1089
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:43,280
So, so I think that you're
always on this journey, but that

1090
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,680
you find out about it not from
the peak experience, but from

1091
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:50,400
the change in your experience
for the ordinary things, right?

1092
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,360
The, the, the, you know, how you
treat a friend, the challenge

1093
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,720
you're working out with your
wife, The, you know, the

1094
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,720
challenges of raising family.
I mean, family is a is family by

1095
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,680
itself, you know, is, is an
opportunity for practicing these

1096
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:06,200
things like no other.
Oh yeah.

1097
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:08,120
Oh yeah.
I have to catch myself all the

1098
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:09,560
time.
And particularly because so, for

1099
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,520
example, my wife's family does
this.

1100
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:14,720
I, my family did not.
But I'm, I was happy to oblige

1101
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:17,040
for this particular tradition
because it didn't, there's no

1102
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,760
skin off my back.
But there's, there's a tradition

1103
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:23,480
in sex of Judaism that you, that
you let your kids hair grow

1104
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,200
until you're 3 for your son.
And then at three years old, you

1105
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:30,320
cut it and there's a lot of
really nice potential, you know,

1106
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,000
what it could represent and the
ideas that it can embody.

1107
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:40,560
But we did it for my son.
And for me to go from being a 25

1108
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:45,240
year old, you know, single guy
with no direction in my life to

1109
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:49,120
by the time I'm 30, giving my
son a haircut and, you know, and

1110
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:53,720
watching this kid and thinking
to myself, I don't even really

1111
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,120
know what happened, You know,
what happened between now and

1112
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:57,240
then.
Like I know that there are a

1113
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:01,560
couple of significant moments,
but I, I, I, I, it, it, I had

1114
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,840
to, I have to periodically
remind myself in the moment,

1115
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,920
bedtime is not bedtime is not a
burden.

1116
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:11,720
Bedtime is an opportunity, you
know, you know, spending time

1117
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:13,880
with changing my daughter's
diaper is not a burden.

1118
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,640
It's not something, OK, I'll go
do it.

1119
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:21,240
It's an opportunity.
And and it's very it's a muscle,

1120
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:25,880
but it's something that far too
often we hear.

1121
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:27,840
And this is something that I
hope, and I don't know how

1122
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:32,280
education can have an impact.
You hear, you know, life goes by

1123
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,760
so fast and then it does.
And you're like, whoa, that went

1124
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:40,080
by so fast.
What's going on?

1125
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,800
Changing your daughter's diaper
is more than an opportunity.

1126
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,440
Yeah.
Life doesn't get better.

1127
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:54,600
It, it, it, you know, we're all
racing after these things.

1128
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,000
And I'm not saying that the
other things aren't are, you

1129
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,520
know, are important.
But there you are changing your

1130
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,280
daughter's diaper right There
you are taking care of an aging

1131
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:05,160
parent.
There you are, you know, doing

1132
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:09,480
things that seem mundane.
You know, you know, I noticed

1133
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:11,360
sometimes, you know, people
like, you know, you, they get

1134
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,400
burdened with troubles, you
know, they're, they're taking

1135
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,360
care of, you know, sick people.
But it's like, OK, I'll put my

1136
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:17,920
life on hold while I'm doing
this.

1137
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:19,840
Yeah.
And then when I'm done with this

1138
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,960
difficult thing, I'm going to
get back to my life, you know,

1139
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:26,400
And I'm like, no, no, no, no,
no, no, that's your life, right?

1140
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,200
That's literally your life.
You know, So you're either there

1141
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,080
for it or you're not.
And so, but the mind, you know,

1142
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:35,280
because we're conditioned, you
know, to sort of, it's

1143
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,200
conditioning, you know, we're
sort of conditioned to think

1144
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:38,520
differently.
You know, we're conditioned,

1145
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,440
prioritize different things.
We're conditioned to think that,

1146
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,240
you know, listening to Bruce
Springsteen is more fulfilling

1147
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:45,840
than changing my daughter's
diaper or something.

1148
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:49,600
And it's not, it never was, it
never will be.

1149
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:53,120
It's just a question of where
the mind is when The thing is

1150
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,240
happening.
And I think that's what this

1151
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,240
connection that what this sort
of whatever you want to call it,

1152
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,640
spiritual discipline, whatever
you want to call it is is is is

1153
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,040
all about.
But you know why we still have

1154
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:07,240
it here.
I got a question for.

1155
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:08,320
You.
Yes, please.

1156
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:10,800
Right.
So you've made all the amount of

1157
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:12,920
money in the world that you ever
wanted.

1158
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,080
What are you going to do with
the rest of your life?

1159
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:20,120
I am going to keep doing the
podcast with all the money I

1160
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:24,520
ever had.
I'm going to have a enormous

1161
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,320
family, I hope, with all the
money I've ever needed.

1162
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:31,640
And I am going to be.
I'm going to keep.

1163
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:33,480
I'm going to keep teaching.
By the way, my life would

1164
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:35,960
probably look exactly the same
as it looks today.

1165
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,120
Yeah, except I'd probably cut
out sales and I'd replace that

1166
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,560
with with piano playing or music
playing.

1167
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,480
And I think everything else in
my life would be pretty much, I

1168
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:49,880
don't think I could handle or do
much more with my intentionality

1169
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:51,920
than I'm doing now.
I don't know that I could do

1170
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:55,800
more than be his, be a husband
that invests in his

1171
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,880
relationship, be a dad that
invests in my kids, be a podcast

1172
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:03,520
host that invests in authentic
conversations that really are,

1173
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:05,760
you know, that I have to prepare
for and be thoughtful about

1174
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,520
teaching the future generations,
teaching the high school.

1175
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:12,160
I fought to teach high school.
I wanted to teach college.

1176
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:14,520
I thought that, you know, high
school students are boring.

1177
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:16,680
They can't have sophisticated
conversations with them.

1178
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,800
And then I gave them some
assignments and I just gave them

1179
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,400
some creative writing prompts.
And I just was blown away by.

1180
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:25,520
And by the way, it was also very
interesting because I teach an

1181
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:29,720
ultra Orthodox Jewish school.
And so the kids are not exposed

1182
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:33,000
to smartphones and they're not
allowed to have social media.

1183
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,280
And you could watch the
difference in their interactions

1184
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,560
and in their self-confidence, in
their ability to express

1185
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,560
themselves, in their ability to
play and to and to have fun and

1186
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:44,640
to also, there's a great way to
put that Jonathan Hate put this

1187
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,200
in a great book called the
anxious generation, but low

1188
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:53,600
consequence, low consequence
conflict where hey, I want this

1189
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:56,280
candy, you got that candy, I
want a snack, you got a snack.

1190
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:57,160
How are we going to work this
out?

1191
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:59,280
The both of us are going to, you
know, are going to be OK about

1192
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,080
it.
And at the end of the day, if it

1193
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:02,400
doesn't work out, it's just your
candy.

1194
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:05,200
That's not like best case
scenario you get yet skills.

1195
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:08,000
Worst case scenario, you lose a
candy and everyone's happy.

1196
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:13,120
So I think that I think that the
purpose of my life is to help

1197
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:17,600
bring out the best in others.
And I do that most by sharing.

1198
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,560
And I'm I get intensely
passionate about the things that

1199
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:23,200
catch me.
You know that I'm that, that

1200
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:25,680
that ignite me.
I can't imagine that things will

1201
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,800
be too different, except that I
hope to be able to.

1202
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:30,680
I work with my father.
We've worked together.

1203
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:32,360
I swore my whole life I'd never
worked with him until I

1204
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,280
graduated college with a
creative writing degree.

1205
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:38,600
And then things change.
But that, that that's, that's,

1206
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:43,120
you know, I would love to take
care of them in my way rather

1207
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:46,480
than be supported by I'm looking
forward to that switch in life

1208
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,600
where I can help take care of my
parents the way they took care

1209
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:53,760
of me my whole life, but my own
way not doing it the way that

1210
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:56,280
they've set out for me to, you
know, the table they set for me

1211
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,080
already.
Yeah, well, I'm glad that I'm

1212
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:02,520
interviewing you now and that's
a very beautiful and inspiring

1213
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:04,720
answer.
And, and and and I think it will

1214
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:06,360
and should inspire others as
well.

1215
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:09,680
So it's and I think it's
actually think it's quite rare.

1216
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:14,280
So thank you, you know, so so
that that's that's just awesome.

1217
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:15,720
That's just anything else you
want to tell me I.

1218
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:18,680
Had AI, had a friend.
I had a friend that had a

1219
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,120
question actually, because I
gave me a book as soon as I read

1220
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:23,040
it the first time.
And he wanted to know how much

1221
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:27,080
Steve Jobs had to do with your
and I know now talking to you,

1222
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:29,960
but how much had to do with your
interest in in in Buddhism and

1223
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:35,960
Eastern philosophy?
Because yeah, no. 00, yeah.

1224
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,000
Is he shocked when you were
already interested in it when

1225
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:42,600
you started talking about no?
Shocked, you know, I, I think

1226
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:45,600
actually more respectful,
appreciative, not shocked.

1227
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:48,320
I think he appreciate, he
appreciated Buddhist philosophy

1228
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,480
a lot, especially Buddhist
aesthetics, but he wasn't a sort

1229
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,440
of practitioner of it.
You know, his, his wife was in

1230
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:57,680
his work, you know, and you
know, and, and the product of

1231
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:00,240
his work was what you saw, you
know, at Pixar, but especially

1232
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,320
at Apple and, and the sort of
aesthetics and the detail and

1233
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,240
everything like that.
You know, that was, that's what

1234
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,360
lit him up.
That's what drove him, you know,

1235
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,680
that, that, you know, 24, you
know, you know, 24/7.

1236
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:17,840
So I'd say he had an
appreciation for the, the, the

1237
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:22,360
sort of spiritual engagement in
a journey, so to speak, but but

1238
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:26,160
his expression of himself was,
was through it through, through

1239
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:28,760
his work and his creativity
there.

1240
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:32,360
OK, well then a couple, just a
couple more last, last questions

1241
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,640
that I think are very important.
What are you hopeful for and

1242
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:40,000
what advice do you have for
young, young folk that do feel

1243
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:41,760
this world is daunting At the
moment?

1244
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:45,720
It is relatively daunting and
we're facing a lot of strife

1245
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:48,080
that we haven't probably faced
since the 70s, I would probably

1246
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:52,840
say 60s or 70s.
And with hardship does come a

1247
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:56,000
lot of beauty.
You know, with challenges rises

1248
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,840
creativity and greatness.
But but those who are nervous,

1249
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:03,280
those who are scared, some
advice and some some hope for

1250
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:05,600
the future.
Yeah, I mean, I find myself

1251
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:09,120
hopeful for the future, you
know, but I think that we're in

1252
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:13,320
a sort of transitional phase for
a couple of reasons. 1 is that

1253
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,520
the old paradigm is sort of
running its course, the old

1254
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:20,600
economic paradigm.
You know, I grew up at a time,

1255
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:23,080
you know, you, you, you graduate
from college, you got a job.

1256
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:25,800
You 10 years later, you, you
know, you got a house, you know,

1257
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:29,480
that kind of thing, right.
And so, and that that that

1258
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,920
paradigm is, is, is, is not what
it used to be.

1259
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,520
And now whatever changes is
having is being now being

1260
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:38,800
accelerated by tech.
So I think AI is causing like a

1261
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:41,920
fear to sort of, you know,
descend on, you know what, you

1262
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,120
know what, what is, you know,
what does this mean?

1263
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:49,480
But I would say something like
this, like don't think that the

1264
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,800
people before you had it all
figured out.

1265
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:56,040
I, I, I don't think they did.
I don't think my generation did.

1266
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:58,840
I, I think, you know, we look
successful, right?

1267
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:01,280
You know, because we grew up
and, and, you know, we were

1268
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:05,280
inventing technologies and, and
computers and all this stuff.

1269
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,240
But I don't think that's the,
that, that, that's the sign that

1270
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:12,640
we sort of had it all together.
And I think we're on a

1271
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:17,520
trajectory to find a way of
being that ultimately I think

1272
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:22,240
will be more healthy because it
will integrate the two sides of

1273
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:26,680
the coin that I'm talking about.
You know, an example of this is

1274
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:32,160
I think we are already and we
will continue to live more by

1275
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:35,960
community and by extended
family.

1276
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:38,720
You know, not just the nuclear
family.

1277
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:41,480
You know, the nuclear family is
like it's two people against the

1278
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:42,760
world.
You know, this is all everything

1279
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:44,280
out.
The extended family is a

1280
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:46,680
village.
And I tell my family and my kids

1281
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:50,400
these days, and I really mean
this, like life is a team sport,

1282
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:52,240
right?
It's a team sport.

1283
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:56,040
And you got to learn how to play
it as a team sport because

1284
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:00,080
otherwise you're sort of
clinging on to sort of your

1285
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,600
piece of life.
Yes, yes, yes.

1286
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:05,760
And this is a falsity.
And so I think that this next

1287
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:08,520
generation Rich and is more
likely to appreciate this.

1288
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:11,280
I try to instill this even in my
own kids too, right?

1289
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:15,320
Like, you know, we're playing a
team sport And and because, you

1290
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:17,479
know, the things that are
happening to us, the hardships

1291
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:20,399
and the challenges that we're
having are not happening because

1292
01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:22,920
of us.
They're they're they're

1293
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:25,800
happening because they're
happening because world is

1294
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:30,359
shifting and changing.
So we have to adjust to succeed

1295
01:08:30,359 --> 01:08:36,960
in a new environment.
And I think getting a team and

1296
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,840
and playing in that way as
opposed to just, it's as like an

1297
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:42,160
individual sport.
It's me against the world,

1298
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:43,760
right?
I got to win, I've got to

1299
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:45,840
succeed.
I don't think that's going to

1300
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,240
going to work as well anymore.
But I think when we do have this

1301
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:52,040
attitude, life will be way
richer for it.

1302
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:55,359
But it requires a shift within
us, you know, because the

1303
01:08:55,359 --> 01:08:58,920
challenge is like, we can really
self critique ourselves.

1304
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:01,960
You know, I felt successful
enough or I didn't get a job or

1305
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:03,479
I didn't do this or I didn't do
that.

1306
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:06,840
And that's no good because
what's happening is not our

1307
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:08,479
fault.
It's not because we failed or

1308
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:10,720
because we didn't do something
right or anything like that.

1309
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:12,479
It's just circumstances is
changing.

1310
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:16,760
So we have to let go of the self
critique and and get down to

1311
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:19,720
business of how do I cope with
what's happening now?

1312
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,640
Yeah.
And I think what comes out of

1313
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:27,399
that could be way better than
than what's been.

1314
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:30,960
It could be richer and deeper,
but it will require us to adjust

1315
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,279
our sort of values and our
expectations and our thoughts.

1316
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:37,439
Yeah, I hope so.
It's funny because I I've

1317
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:41,200
noticed I would tell last summer
now I went to a friend's wedding

1318
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:45,600
in Israel and along the way
stops in Amsterdam and and Spain

1319
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:47,680
on the way home, just briefly.
I haven't been to, I hadn't been

1320
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:49,200
to either place.
And I wanted to check out what

1321
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:50,960
the world, what the, what the
world was like there.

1322
01:09:51,279 --> 01:09:55,000
And, and I've been to Ireland,
I've been to Dublin, which I

1323
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,920
which I absolutely adored.
And I went to Galway and I loved

1324
01:09:57,920 --> 01:09:59,760
it.
And one thing that I've noticed

1325
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:05,120
that people, it feels like, and
again, as a tourist, it's just

1326
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:07,880
my experience that my my couple
days there, whatever it was,

1327
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:13,360
felt like they were not as
isolated in these social bubbles

1328
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:16,320
of technology and phones and air
pods.

1329
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,080
And I mean, I know that I go to
the supermarket.

1330
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:20,840
I said this before and I'll say
it again.

1331
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:24,120
And the cashier has headphones
in and his mind in their own

1332
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:25,720
business.
And I'm walking by and I'm not

1333
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,880
paying attention because I'm
texting and my headphones and

1334
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,520
I'm listening to podcast while
I'm shopping.

1335
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:33,120
And the best experience that
I've had is when I bumped into

1336
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:36,000
someone said, I'm so sorry.
Like that's OK, you know, were

1337
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:37,160
you looking for this?
I'm looking for that.

1338
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:38,360
Oh yeah.
You know, I love this thing.

1339
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:40,120
It's my favorite thing.
And all of a sudden, that two

1340
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:43,920
second spark of connection that
that wall just came crumbling

1341
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:45,960
down.
And, and, and I think that like,

1342
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:49,320
like, and this is a common
theme, Dave and Goliath startups

1343
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:52,440
and, and big companies, you
know, it feels like the whole

1344
01:10:52,440 --> 01:10:55,720
world is pushing down.
Like you're saying it takes very

1345
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:57,440
little to peek a hole of light
into it.

1346
01:10:57,440 --> 01:10:59,800
Did the poke a hole to poke a
little hole into that?

1347
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:02,040
And then who knows how big that
hole gets.

1348
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:05,960
So I hope that that that, that,
that America rebounds from this

1349
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:08,800
kind of isolation and like you
said, become part of a

1350
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:11,480
community.
And, you know, there's something

1351
01:11:11,480 --> 01:11:14,400
about, especially in recent
years with, you know, being

1352
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:18,720
Jewish and, and even really
having to re look and re

1353
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:23,520
evaluate, you know, and about my
relationship with Israel,

1354
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:27,400
Judaism, not, not in a bad way,
but just to say, hey, a lot's

1355
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:29,920
going on.
And it does require some thought

1356
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:32,960
and some thoughtfulness and it
does require just another

1357
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:35,800
perspective and another looking
at from a new from a new lens.

1358
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,160
And it's really, really hard to
do.

1359
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:41,720
But you find yourself connecting
with more people than ever in

1360
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:44,400
the world doesn't become
smaller, it becomes larger.

1361
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:47,520
The world becomes, the world
becomes more of an opportunity

1362
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:50,200
for people that you didn't even
dream of or more similar to than

1363
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:53,280
you ever could have thought.
And it's beautiful and it's

1364
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:54,840
amazing.
And all we have to do is just

1365
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:56,600
give ourselves that chance to
get there.

1366
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:00,680
I think that's absolutely right.
I think that there's it's an I

1367
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:04,760
all this is a muscle, right?
So I call it the human first

1368
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:07,800
muscle.
It's like, and it's it's very

1369
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:12,200
easy to exercise.
Like all you have to do is, you

1370
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:14,520
know, like at any point during
the day or night or whatever,

1371
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:17,520
you think human first, right?
And you just think to yourself

1372
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:21,400
about anybody, anything, anyone
that you know that may be going

1373
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:23,360
through something difficult or
maybe going through something

1374
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:25,040
good, right, something like
that.

1375
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:28,360
And you just have to acknowledge
it, right?

1376
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:31,040
So the text that you never sent,
right?

1377
01:12:31,480 --> 01:12:34,040
You know, because someone went
to the doctor or someone, you

1378
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:37,560
know, had a surgery or, you
know, somebody, whatever, you

1379
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:41,080
know, you know, whatever it is
in that moment, human first,

1380
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:42,440
right?
I'm just going to say, hey,

1381
01:12:42,440 --> 01:12:46,240
how's it going, right?
We sometimes feel almost awkward

1382
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:50,040
doing that.
And and I say, step into it, get

1383
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:54,840
burn putting humans by putting
people first, Let it let it burn

1384
01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:58,920
you because it will produce much
more rewards than it does burn.

1385
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:01,160
One out of 10 people might say,
Hey, what the hell are you

1386
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:02,680
doing?
And I, you know, but one out of

1387
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:06,120
100, I've actually never
experienced it, you know, you

1388
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:09,680
know, I'm like when you just pay
that little tent, it's just a

1389
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:13,560
little muscle, right?
Just pay attention, you know,

1390
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:17,160
get your mind off of yourself
and your needs and this and

1391
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:18,680
that.
Just pay attention to what that

1392
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:21,400
other personal thing, you know,
might want just once a day.

1393
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:26,360
These are the practices that
shift.

1394
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:28,400
Building blocks.
Building blocks that, that,

1395
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:32,240
that, that, that shift minds.
And you know, I, I, I've, I've,

1396
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:34,720
I've read all this fancy
philosophy and I could, I'm

1397
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:36,920
happy, you know, I can talk to
you all day about it.

1398
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:40,320
But you know, I'm really serious
though, when I say that is my

1399
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:44,440
practice, you know, the, the
philosophy and everything and

1400
01:13:44,440 --> 01:13:47,200
all that is to enable that.
It's not really good at

1401
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:49,880
philosophy.
You know, which I'm, which I

1402
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:51,840
love and I'm happy to talk
about.

1403
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:54,600
It's for that, you know.
The philosophy is a

1404
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:56,720
justification to be able to get
there.

1405
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:59,960
It's to be able to get there.
It's so that I can put a break

1406
01:13:59,960 --> 01:14:04,040
in my day and say, no, I'm going
to pay attention to this person,

1407
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:07,800
this thing, you know right now.
And it's the little things.

1408
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:10,320
It's the way you word a text,
the way you word an e-mail,

1409
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:12,560
right?
The, the just thinking of these

1410
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:15,000
things and that it's very
mundane.

1411
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,960
But that's where the that's
where the grist of it is.

1412
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:22,600
Mr. Lawrence Levy, thank you so
much for your time.

1413
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:26,320
This is again a dream come true
and I really appreciate your

1414
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:29,920
time and I hope to be in touch
because you are clearly a source

1415
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:34,120
of a lot of wonderful wisdom and
ideals and and I and I consider

1416
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:36,120
myself lucky that I got to get
in touch with you so.

1417
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:37,280
Thank you very much for staying
in touch.

1418
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:39,640
We're friends now and you can
call, you can call me anytime.

1419
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:41,000
There we go.
Beautiful.

1420
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:42,760
Thank you so much.
Have a great evening.

1421
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:43,760
We'll talk soon.
Thank you.

1422
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:44,400
Bye everyone.