Entertainment Series 5: Joel High / Creative Control Content / Music Supervisor / Producing

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

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Joe, we're live.
Take your time with your drink.

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I got my coffee over here, got
some water shelter.

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I'm really looking forward to
this, man.

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I'm really looking forward for a
number of reasons, but number

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one is because I'm a music
junkie and a movie junkie.

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And you exist right at the
intersection between those

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worlds, which I'm really, which
I'm really excited about.

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So you're a music supervisor or
we're a music supervisor.

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You do a lot more than that
currently.

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Still a music supervisor?
Still a music supervisor, among

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other things, And you run a
company called Creative Control

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Entertainment.
That is correct.

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Can you tell me just briefly I
guess then we'll talk, we'll get

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into it just about the company
and about how you got started

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with this.
Sure, I started this many

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decades ago when I started
working at Trimark Pictures,

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which is is no longer existence,
but it was the home of

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everything from Eve's Bayou to
the Leprechaun series and

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Warlock and other fun, fun, fun
movies.

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And so I started in the music
department there and within a

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year of if going into the music
department, became the head of

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the music department and built
out their publishing company,

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built out their record label and
supervised all of the films that

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went through there and also
oversaw everything from

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deliverables in terms of music
for acquisitions.

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You know, everything had to do
with music.

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And then Lionsgate acquired
Trimark and in the process

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acquired me and I became the
head of music for Lionsgate and

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did the same activity there.
Or, you know, I supervised

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almost every single title both
in in film and television that

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came through those doors and
started their label, started,

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you know, built up their
publishing catalog and ran that

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department for a good long
while.

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And then in 2006, I decided to
go independent and started my

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own company, Creative Control,
which was founded on the idea

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that I had already, you know,
basically been the music

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department for for two, you
know, film studios.

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And I could do the same for
independent film studios who

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didn't have the wherewithal or
need the, the need for a full

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time music department.
And so we, we contract with,

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with several companies to do
their, all their music services.

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And also at the same time, I
was, you know, you know,

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starting my own company and I
wanted to explore what more I

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could do.
And we started a live events

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division where we worked with
different usually Canadian

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groups like like SEMA, Canadian
Independent Music Lines and

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they're publishing groups and
you know, factor and all these

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great, you know, governmental
kind of funded entities that,

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you know, were there to, you
know, support the arts.

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And my pitch was, you know, you
guys have such amazing artists

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up in Canada.
Why don't you engage more with

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the, the community that is
putting music and film and

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television in the United States?
And so they basically contracted

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with me to start like I started
Canada House and the Canadian

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Blast BBQ with them at South by
Southwest.

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And you know, did that for
several years as well.

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So we had a very vibrant kind of
live kind of event thing where

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we would host also like
lunchtime events at, at like

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Hotel Cafe here in Los Angeles
where we would invite a like the

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entire like film and television
community to come out and see

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various Canadian artists and,
and meet the, the label people

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and the reps and all that stuff.
And so that was fun.

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We did that for years.
And we did, Canada had us host

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all of their Grammy events for
years and, you know, everywhere

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from like the House of Blues to
other kind of venues.

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And then I realized that that
was exhausting.

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So it was much more my, my, my
passion was in, you know,

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telling stories with music.
And so I focused much more on

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like film and television.
And early on you can tell me if

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I'm just rambling, but.
No, I'm loving this.

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I'm going to backtrack at that.
When you when you when you

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finish.
And I'm going to go back to the,

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you know, asking questions from
the beginning, but this is

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great.
My my first major client, in

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fact, one of the the impetus for
me not renewing my contract with

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Lionsgate and started my own
company was that I met Tyler

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Perry and worked on his first
movie there, which was Diary of

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a Mad Black Woman.
And we hit it off like

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gangbusters.
And he's a totally independent

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guy.
Firm believer in doing it

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yourself.
And don't like listen to how

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other people tell you how it's
supposed to be done, but do what

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your gut says.
And so I've been with with Tyler

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for 20 years, ever since his
first movie.

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And I've worked on basically
every movie he's ever done.

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And that's 30, maybe some movies
and all of his television series

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that he does.
And he currently has the biggest

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studio on the planet and.
He really?

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Oh yeah.
He's got where, where, where,

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Where's the base it's.
In Atlanta.

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It's in Atlanta television.
Studios 12 Gigantic sound stages

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back lot A A scale model replica
of the White House.

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You know it's like it's amazing.
It's astounding when the first

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time people come out there and
see it, they're just like, wow,

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it's 400 acres.
He bought a an old Civil War era

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army based.
And.

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Converted into, like I said,
like the biggest studio on the

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planet as far as I know.
So incredible he's.

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Been my, my main client for the
last 20 years and yeah, and it's

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been great working with him and
working with all the other film

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makers that I, I continue to
have a relationship with.

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Wow, it's awesome.
It's awesome.

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And you got into producing a
little bit also, right?

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Yeah, when I originally started
in this industry, I wanted to be

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a filmmaker, and I started when
I was in my teens here in LA

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working on music videos.
You know, everything from like

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being APA to shooting B roll to,
you know, working as assistant

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director, working at the
lighting department and

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everything like that.
And so I originally started

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working at Trimark in their
production department and was

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kind of encouraged to go into
music because there was no

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opportunities to move up in the
production department.

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So my first love was, was making
movies, you know, And so I spent

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many decades doing that by
through the music department and

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I've given like the first starts
to a number of huge composers

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and things like that.
But as if I was preceding my

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career as a music supervisor, I
was brought on several films

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where I my role was outsized for
just like the music I was

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involved in casting I.
Was involved in.

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Helping with the financing,
helping with secure

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distribution, things like that.
And so I'm like, I'm producing

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this in a way.
So I started asking for, you

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know, a producer credit when
that kind of a lift and that

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broad of a scope of work was was
required of me.

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And they didn't necessarily have
the money to pay me as much as

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like they should.
I said, well, make me a

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producer, make me a participant
in this.

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And so I was like, who was that
first Mario?

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Alright, man Peoples.
Which is like one of the first

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ones who said, yeah, you're a
producer.

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That's a, that's a pretty common
trade off from what I've, from

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what I've read, right, that if
films have a hard time coming up

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with the money that they'll
offer produce or some kind of

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title.
So you can associate, you can

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associate and leverage it for
another job in the future,

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right?
Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Having a, a track record as a
producer is, is something that

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you can have as a precedent and
kind of it, it's unusual for a

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music supervisor to, to take on
that role.

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But I was, you know, very lucky
when I was at Trimark.

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My my boss there, Kenny
Winikoff, who was at a

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production, allowed me to sit in
all of the meetings that I

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wanted.
To So I sat in.

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Marketing meetings, I sat in
finance meetings, I sat in

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acquisitions, distribution
meetings and all that kind of

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stuff just so I could learn.
And that.

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Was kind of our trade off that
was she allowed me to

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participate and learn everything
from like how to get a picture

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bonded to how to work with a,
you know, distribution and you

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know, PNA spends and things like
that.

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So.
Incredible.

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Yeah.
I, I, I one of the things that I

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noticed in your story and that I
feel like I've noticed in a lot

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of people's stories that kind of
run their own businesses or

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start steering their own chips
is that you're a, a willingness

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to kind of put on a lot of hats
and like be willing to just

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learn whatever your whatever's
out there, you know, and you

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know, to be so.
Yeah, yeah.

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And you know, because I've
noticed that recently, or at

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least in a corporate world, and
I don't know if you have this

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experience, but jobs and
responsibilities are very

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compartmentalized.
And you know, whoever you know,

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whoever does one thing, that's
what they that's the lane they

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steer in and stay in, you know?
But for you to be able to do

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what you did right, which is to
branch off eventually on your

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owner, to even do a job
exceeding all expectations at

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other companies, you'd have to
be willing to go above and

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beyond, I'd imagine, right?
Yeah, it's completely.

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It's like you, you get what you
kind of give into it, what you

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want to participate in.
So it's like at my company, I

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have a couple of music
supervisors who work with me and

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I basically give them as much
responsibility as I have.

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I'm an open book with them.
I let them read all the

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contracts because I want them to
learn how I learned.

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I want to be able to say, hey,
I've got to step away for a

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little bit to deal with this.
You're in charge of all this.

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And they go, yeah, got it.
Because they have that

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experience.
And so, you know, I've had a lot

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of of, you know, we have very
strong internship program here

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where we bring in interns from
different universities and give

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them a very broad kind of like
education on how we do this.

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Because you know, in, in my way
of thinking again, I, I am, I

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come from film production to get
into, into music supervision and

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it's always been in my kind of
my kind of view of it is the

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proper view is that I don't work
in the music industry.

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I work in the film industry.
So.

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I am.
A a, an employee of a film and

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my responsibility is the
department of music.

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So where there is like a camera
department, there is an electric

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department.
There's like sets and hair and

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makeup and whoever's in charge
of that isn't in charge of

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everything from budget,
schedule, you know, employees,

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all that kind of stuff.
And so when I come on to a

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movie, I start at the script
phase, break it down, do a

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budget and do like a, a plan of
how we're going to do it from

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very start to distribution and
marketing and things like that.

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And so I.
Let the people who come through

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my shop, including the interns,
learn the basics, but then I

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expose them to whatever they
want to go so they can go to

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recording sessions they can go
to like the mix stage, they can

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go to set if it's allowed and
participate in everything we do

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there.
So and because I want them to be

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able to get a real good
education that they're not going

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to get at school.
Yeah, definitely, definitely.

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You learn way more from our
experiences, I imagine.

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I feel like at least for myself
and actually when I was talking

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to a couple of buddies of mine
that was telling them how

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excited I was for this
conversation, you know, I

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mentioned music, music
supervisor.

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I got mixed responses as far as
questions for does this music

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supervisor have to do with the
score, like, you know, like the,

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you know, famous scores from
like, John Williams or Hans

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Zimmer's and that's being
composed on the spot.

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Or whether it's more of like a
Guardians of the Galaxy or

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Scorsese or Tarantino type of
acquiring the rights to, you

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know, different types of songs
to be able to play in the film.

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And you know, and, and you know,
so and maybe you could shed some

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clarity as to like what the
responsibilities are for a music

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supervisor if it goes over both.
Yeah, I mean, it's it what it's

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done, right?
It's all of that.

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Because like I said, it's it's
the, it's the boring stuff of

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like, you know, budget and
schedule and, and legal

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00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:16,960
clearances and everything like
that.

225
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,280
But it's also, you know, the
exciting stuff about, you know,

226
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:25,160
trying to find a great composer,
setting up interviews, you know,

227
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,200
and listening to that and
recommending them to a director,

228
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,200
putting them together, you know,
doing like spotting sessions

229
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,040
where we watch the film and say,
I want I think that you should

230
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,040
start here.
And I think that this is a big.

231
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,040
Action.
That you should get a little bit

232
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,840
bigger here and and then you
should end here and, you know,

233
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,640
go through that whole thing with
the composer and the director

234
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,240
and the producer and be involved
in that.

235
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,120
And because I've done, you know,
close to 300 movies, maybe I

236
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,480
don't even remember now, but you
know, it's like I have a good

237
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,200
experience and a good instinct
for that.

238
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,600
And I let and I and I work with
the composers through the whole

239
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,000
thing.
And at the same time, I'll also

240
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,040
be picking songs to play some
different places and

241
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,400
recommending those to the, the
creative people.

242
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,120
We don't ever choose anything
necessarily because that's not

243
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,960
our job.
Our job is to give options and

244
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,960
to fulfill a film makers vision
and help them tell their story

245
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,480
with music.
And so we recommend different

246
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,160
songs and stuff and then it's
our job to go after the rights

247
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,760
to make sure that we can secure
those rights to use it.

248
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,280
And then you know that it comes
in budget and all that stuff.

249
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,560
So what it's done right?
It is all of the above and

250
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,040
beyond.
Like you wouldn't even imagine

251
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,520
some of the stuff that we have
to do as to music, but can.

252
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,040
You give me some examples, some
details I mean.

253
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,600
Please.
Sure.

254
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,520
Right now we've got a movie
coming up that we're in pre

255
00:14:54,520 --> 00:15:00,440
production on and it has 23
songs that are all on camera

256
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:01,680
that are written into the
script.

257
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,000
And so right now I'm securing
the rights to use those.

258
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,360
I'm looking for somebody who's
going to be doing the

259
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,960
arrangements on this because
that's not my job.

260
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,920
I, I hire the people who do
this.

261
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,000
So we're going to have to do
arrangements of them, do demo

262
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:24,920
recordings, set up sessions with
the we're going to talk to the

263
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:26,960
management for all the actors
who are going to be singing

264
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,200
these things to make sure we
know what their their, their

265
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,760
right pitch, the right key is
for these things.

266
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:33,440
Because if we do an.
Arrangement.

267
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,280
We have to make sure that it's
in the key that they can sing in

268
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,080
most easily.
Sure.

269
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,800
And then send it over to them.
Help them rehearse.

270
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,720
Hire vocal coaches if we need to
work.

271
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,440
With the coach.
And the actors hire songwriters

272
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,280
if there's not a song that's
specifically enumerated in the

273
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,960
script.
So we'll hire a songwriter, give

274
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,560
them a brief of what we want,
and then work with a songwriter

275
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,240
to do the a demo of that.
And then, you know, negotiate

276
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:09,200
those rights, you know, hire
musicians to record a track of

277
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,400
these things.
You know, your own, like listed

278
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:13,840
label, essentially you're your
own.

279
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:15,200
Yeah.
I mean, it's a whole thing.

280
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,320
This part is like a record label
for this movie, right?

281
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,520
Yeah.
We have to make sure that we

282
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,840
have a pre record done in time
so that if we need to, we can

283
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,200
play that back on set and we can
pantomime, you know, doing this.

284
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,720
But most likely we're going to
have, you know, some live

285
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,200
performance of this stuff.
And so I have to be in touch

286
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,200
with the assistant directors
crews to make sure that I'm in

287
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,040
touch with the cast and that
they are aware of what we're

288
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,320
doing.
I have to be in touch with props

289
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,640
because we have to make sure
that there are functioning

290
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,120
instruments.
I have to be in touch with hair

291
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,520
and makeup.
I have to be in touch with

292
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,520
casting about setting this up
and and making sure everybody's

293
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:59,080
properly contracted and you
know, all through it.

294
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,240
We have to go through all of the
different departments to make

295
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,079
sure that we're like set up
ready to go and everything is

296
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:07,800
there and in place.
Then they shoot it and then we

297
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,520
take that and we off to the
races in post production.

298
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,040
So it's.
Crazy.

299
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,200
And how much of this do you have
as a I mean, I'm sure by now,

300
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,680
but it's already down to
science.

301
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,640
But when you were starting, how
much of it?

302
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,079
No, it's not.
You make it up, it's different

303
00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:24,640
every time because you don't
know who you're going to be

304
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,800
necessarily working with and
what their capabilities are and

305
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,360
and what it's it's going to
entail on on for me and my crew.

306
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,120
And every movie is different.
So it's like I have, you know,

307
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:40,040
best practices of how it's
supposed to go.

308
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:46,040
But again, you know, we adapt
how we do it based on the the

309
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,960
situation at hand, so.
So you have to be really

310
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,200
flexible.
You have to be able to fly by

311
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,520
the seat of your pants if you
know something comes up.

312
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,680
And you just got to have how
much of this is contacts versus

313
00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,840
experience?
Like, OK, I need someone to call

314
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,160
that knows how to deal with this
or oh, I've dealt with this.

315
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,480
They're one.
In the same, they're one in the

316
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,840
same, you know?
Yeah, that experience that I

317
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,160
have of, of how to execute
something like this is, is also

318
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,320
the experience that I have of
who because I can't do any of

319
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,680
it.
So it's like my experience is

320
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,960
like, oh, I know exactly who to
call on that one and.

321
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,760
Then.
Rely on their experience, you

322
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,120
know, so it's, it's, it's all
one and the same.

323
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:25,400
It's like I've been doing this
for long enough so that I have,

324
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,320
you know, deep contacts and deep
resources.

325
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,480
And if I don't know that, I know
who to call to, who will know

326
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,360
somebody who can do something?
Right, so.

327
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,120
I rely on my team a lot to be
able to handle a lot of this

328
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:41,000
stuff and yeah.
Awesome.

329
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:46,000
And who who was some what was
some inspirational movies or

330
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,640
some inspirational directors,
actors, people in the industry

331
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,520
that got you, you know, started
in it that, that, that, that

332
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,320
that wanted you down this path,
you know, starting down this

333
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,920
path because it sounds like you
started early enough that you

334
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,040
didn't have a ton of commitments
that you could have thrown

335
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,280
yourself all in, you know, to
this.

336
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,520
But if you know one thing I've
always wanted, you know, I've

337
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,000
always had, like, my heart in
the entertainment world, and it

338
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,160
just felt like you have to
really throw everything aside

339
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,680
for it.
Do you feel that's the case?

340
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:22,760
Sometimes I, I worked myself
very hard to get to a place

341
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,760
where I knew this and I worked
long hours and, and I, and I

342
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,400
actually, you know, worked in
the legal department as well.

343
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,640
And that was at a time when
there was no like, you know, on

344
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,440
computers, there wasn't like cut
and paste function.

345
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,320
So I had to retype all of these
contracts and stuff like that.

346
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,680
And it was brutal because I.
I was not a somebody who's

347
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,720
sitting in front of a keyboard
kind of a person.

348
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:50,400
I was like an onset guy.
So I had to really lean into it

349
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,360
and learn it and, and be devoted
to it.

350
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,960
And, you know, and that's, you
know, good or bad.

351
00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,920
I, it got me to where I am.
I don't have my crew.

352
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,600
I don't ask them to devote that
kind of, of time and energy to

353
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,640
what they do.
I depend on them getting the job

354
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,520
done.
But it's like our our rule is

355
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,400
like don't call me before 9:00
AM unless it's an emergency.

356
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,160
And I won't call you at all
unless it's an emergency.

357
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,040
And you know, after 6, I don't
want to hear from you unless

358
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,040
it's an emergency.
And I won't call you unless it's

359
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:25,680
an emergency because I want them
to be.

360
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,120
I don't want to burn them out
you.

361
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:30,480
Know because.
This is really hard work.

362
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,480
When we're deep into it, it's
very much like it's all hands on

363
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:35,800
deck.
So like this movie that we've

364
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,920
got with the 23 songs, you know,
it's, it's a lot of work and.

365
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:41,640
So and.
And we're not even at, we're

366
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,320
like 3 weeks out from production
and so all the pre production

367
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,880
stuff has to go into it.
And so then then the real hard

368
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,600
stuff of being on set happens.
And so I want them to not have

369
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,480
burned out by the time we get to
set.

370
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:55,600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's so funny.

371
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,000
It's so funny you say that.
I lived in Seattle for a year

372
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,680
and one of my roommates while I
was living there got a job with

373
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,560
Microsoft and, you know, there's
a lot of big tech companies

374
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,720
around there.
And one thing that a lot of

375
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,600
young people had that said, you
know, in common, you know, one

376
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,840
common theme was that the
companies that they work for

377
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,920
Microsoft, Facebook, Airbnb, you
know, whatever they want their

378
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,480
employees to be happy, you know,
and their and their hours were

379
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,440
generally like what you said,
nine to five, nine to six, you

380
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,800
know, pretty flexible.
If you have anything going on,

381
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,040
take your time.
Exactly.

382
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:31,160
And he said, because, but when
we have projects, you know, we

383
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,520
got, we, you know, we, we're the
best, we're the, we're the best

384
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,920
at what we do, you know.
And so, you know, they, they, so

385
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,680
I, I, I, I think that's a good
mentality because I grew up in

386
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,440
the New York world where it was
almost like a matter of like

387
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,400
pride.
How many hours you worked that

388
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,520
week, you know, Oh, I worked 70.
That's the way I was when.

389
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,160
I started, I was like, I was in
the office for 10 hours doing

390
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,400
this stuff and they're like, oh,
cool.

391
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,560
I guess, yeah, yeah, it's a,
it's a, it's a mentality.

392
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,160
And I, and I, I hear that
because I think people equate

393
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,680
busyness with productivity, you
know, so, oh, you're spending X

394
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,200
amount of time busy, you must be
really, really productive, you

395
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,280
know, and yeah, starting to work
in the, starting to starting to

396
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,160
do sales.
I've learned the opposite, you

397
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,040
know, that the amount of time
that you spend actually working

398
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,840
generally does not necessarily
correlate with how productive

399
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,680
you're being while you're while
you're there.

400
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,080
You know, that's really, really
cool.

401
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:30,560
So what, what when, when the
when, when the Tristar got

402
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,520
acquired by Lionsgate.
I'm I'm sure that's a pretty

403
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,400
significant cultural switch in
terms of the size of the studio,

404
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,160
what you had, you know, the type
of management that you had hand

405
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,480
holding.
Sort of, yeah.

406
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,360
I mean, Lionsgate was not very
big.

407
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,640
It was just they had a lot of
money and some leadership that

408
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:53,120
was that was very aggressive.
So they were actually smaller

409
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:55,880
than than Trimark was.
Oh yeah.

410
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,760
Staff and, and production and
all that stuff.

411
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,760
And they acquired Trimark
because of that they library,

412
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,920
but they also wanted the
infrastructure because it was,

413
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,400
it was not a huge production
house like it is now.

414
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,240
Like, I think like, like
American Psycho was one of their

415
00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:19,880
first movies and stuff.
And they were not like a, a

416
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,640
hugely productive entity.
They were Canadian company.

417
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,320
As a matter of fact, that was
mostly about acquisitions and

418
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,200
distribution.
And they acquired Trimark for

419
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,360
the library and for the
infrastructure.

420
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,400
And so it wasn't a big shift and
it was very nerve racking, but

421
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,400
you know, it's like I'd proven
myself at, at at Trimark and

422
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,560
what I had built basically
single handedly.

423
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,520
And so when it they came and
they were like doing like these

424
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,160
these nerve wracking kind of
interviews about like, you know,

425
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,560
tell us what you do and what.
Value do you bring?

426
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,880
To the company kind of stuff.
I was like, let's take up a

427
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,640
seat, let's go.
Yeah, you.

428
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,200
Know and I told them all the
stuff that I had built and and

429
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,720
how about like the the revenue
that comes from music publishing

430
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,760
pays for this and makes sure
that this is actually a not just

431
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,440
a a straight out expense, but it
is an investment in and what

432
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,480
you're going to have is an asset
and stuff and they're.

433
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,840
Like, yeah, yeah, it's really
cool.

434
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,720
Did you do you ever listen to
the podcast The Town with Matt

435
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,440
Bellamy?
It's it's like a business

436
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,280
oriented Hollywood podcast.
Half an hour 2-3 times a week.

437
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,320
It's awesome.
He's great, but no, not

438
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,360
anything.
Well, either way, it's like I.

439
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,040
Don't.
I don't watch the studio, you

440
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:38,880
know.
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.

441
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,800
Right.
I'm like, no.

442
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,720
Right, so they stay away from
they stay away from their

443
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,360
opinions on things.
They more report on the business

444
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:51,240
of what's going on.
For example, you know, this Leo

445
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,320
movie that just opened this
weekend, is it a hit or not?

446
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,800
You know, and they discussed the
potential down the line business

447
00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,400
opportunities and, and OK, well,
if open to 30, then what does it

448
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,400
mean down the run and what does
it mean domestic versus

449
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,400
international?
So it's cool to be able to

450
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,520
explain because those concepts
have like didn't mean anything

451
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,440
to me.
And now I mean, you know, I

452
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,120
mean, the way I, the way I
consume entertainment is totally

453
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:13,480
different.
You know, when I kind of have a

454
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,840
little bit more of that, of that
concept in my mind, it's really

455
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,560
cool.
So how did how, how does, for

456
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,280
example, again, Guardians of the
Galaxy, and maybe you don't know

457
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,000
the answer to this, but I'm sure
with your experience, you know

458
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,720
something about it that Disney
repackages their, you know, the

459
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,960
collection of songs that
guardians put on in the movie

460
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,360
and they sell it on vinyl and on
Spotify.

461
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,200
They put on Spotify and
everything Disney makes the

462
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,240
money from that or the original
artist some some of the money.

463
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,400
So.
It's like when you have like a

464
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,840
soundtrack that is is like on
Spotify of pre-existing songs.

465
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,480
It's a playlist.
It's a playlist.

466
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,040
It's.
Almost impossible for them to

467
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,000
monetize something like that as
they do some sort of a deal with

468
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,600
with like the artist that says,
you know, we're going to put it

469
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,200
on this playlist and it's going
to boost your sales by this and

470
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,280
we want a participation in it,
which they may do, I don't know.

471
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,520
OK.
But generally speaking, it's a

472
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,240
playlist.
It's like if I made a playlist

473
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,160
and and put it on the world and
it's like, great, you know?

474
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,440
And I guess that would be
incentive for the families or

475
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,360
for the for the.
Yeah, they may.

476
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:19,760
Do that.
And that's, that's kind of like,

477
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,600
you know, they may do that and I
don't know, but it is, it is a

478
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,720
marketing thing for for the most
part, like we have like for

479
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,000
beauty and black, which is a
show that I supervised with Leah

480
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,120
Avraham.
And it's all we they Netflix

481
00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:39,880
puts out a playlist of like the
songs that we've used in in that

482
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,360
scene.
Right.

483
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,440
And then they, they, it's just
there, but it's like the

484
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,240
audience wants it.
So it drives, it drives people

485
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,360
to go to the, the playlist and,
and do the show.

486
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,560
But we also have a, a, a
soundtrack that's digital for

487
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,520
the show.
That is the score from Wow Jones

488
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,400
and Jimmy James.
That is phenomenal.

489
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,400
All their, their, their score
for the show.

490
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,800
And that one we do participate
in because we own that music.

491
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,400
Right.
When Disney puts out like, you

492
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,840
know, a Guardians of the Galaxy
as a mixtape, like a physical,

493
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,560
it's just like, it's just like
the old school, you know,

494
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,280
compilation album.
Yeah, yeah.

495
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,640
Final, because that's a physical
good that you can cut out a

496
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,200
royalty to go to these artists,
but then the over is going to go

497
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,240
to to Disney, whoever releases
it.

498
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,240
I see, I see.
And how difficult is it to kind

499
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,120
of get these rights, You know,
like, I mean, if I, I and I, you

500
00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:39,080
know, I know not not very hard
most of the time.

501
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,440
So to put to rights on our
record.

502
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,160
No, I'm so sorry to it writes
for songs to use in a in a film.

503
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,120
Oh.
It's it's totally dependent on

504
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,160
billions of factors.
You know, there's like there's

505
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,840
libraries you can go to where
you're like, here's $5, can I

506
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,120
use the song?
And they were like, yeah, go,

507
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,400
please.
Yeah, yeah.

508
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,160
Or there's, you know, if you
want to go and and put like, you

509
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,040
know, ACDC in your movie, Yeah,
you know.

510
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,480
Get ready to write 7 fucking.
Figures.

511
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,880
Yeah, I heard about that film.
There's other artists, you know,

512
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,520
it's like, they're like, no.
Not for.

513
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,840
Any circumstance will you be
able to use this song unless you

514
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,840
are related to one of the people
on the record, you know, kind of

515
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,880
a thing It's like, and it's
again, it depends on the deal

516
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,120
that these artists have with the
with the labels, the deal with

517
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:29,960
their publishing companies, who
the publishing companies and

518
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,560
labels are, their
responsiveness.

519
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,120
All of these things are factors
that that which is, you know,

520
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,480
one of the skills that we
develop music supervisors.

521
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,720
Yeah.
And I guess that's why, I guess

522
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,360
it's the value of having an in
house kind of program or an in

523
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,360
house label or record or
whatever because you you have

524
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:47,680
your own selection of music to
pick from.

525
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,520
No.
Not really.

526
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,000
I mean we do some of that.
I mean like there is no like

527
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,360
there like Sony Pictures does
not have a special deal with

528
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,560
Sony Records.
Oh no, does not No.

529
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,320
I mean, they can't because they
can walk over to their building

530
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:05,120
and be.
Like, yeah.

531
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,400
Let's do this and they can be
like, no, we're a different

532
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,160
revenue stream and we've got to
make sure that our, you know,

533
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,920
quarterly numbers.
Are.

534
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:14,520
Yeah, sure.
And.

535
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,040
We don't care about what your
numbers are, you know, so it's

536
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,840
not always that and it's, you
know, it's also like anti

537
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:23,640
monopoly kind of stuff and all
that.

538
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:24,560
Kind of thing.
So it's.

539
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,120
You know, they used to say that
you cannot have like the label

540
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,240
on the same campus as the film
studio and the publishing

541
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,400
company had to be at a different
campus as well.

542
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,440
Like physically could not be at
the same place.

543
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,520
Those rules are not the same
anymore.

544
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,120
But you know, that's how how
kind of like firewall they were

545
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,480
because again, an artist doesn't
want to sign with the label

546
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,040
who's going to go?
Yeah, yeah, you can totally have

547
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,920
this song for like $5.00 because
it's.

548
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:53,960
Going to have the.
Bottom line of the of the film

549
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,720
and stuff because the artist
would be like what?

550
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,960
Yeah.
That's my money.

551
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,320
Right.
But I would, I would imagine if

552
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,320
I was an artist, right?
And you were a studio and you

553
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,800
said, hey man, I'm Sony, I'm
Tristar, you know, I'm

554
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,960
Lionsgate.
I'm about to put your movie,

555
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,560
your song in Iron Claw with Zac
Efron, right?

556
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,200
I don't have a lot of money
budgeted for this, but this

557
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,040
could be really big for your
career, you know?

558
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,160
What do you say about getting
your?

559
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,720
What about getting this on here?
It's not fair, you know, I mean,

560
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,040
it's, it's totally cut throat
and, and, and a lie you.

561
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,960
Know.
So I I never do that.

562
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,720
You never do that, but.
We have Beauty in the Black,

563
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,600
which is #1 Series in Netflix #1
Series on all streamers, right?

564
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,120
Huge, huge 1.3 billion people
watched it, but hours were

565
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,000
watched in a week.
And so we could say, hey, you

566
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,720
know, we're going to, we're
going to make you famous.

567
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,520
You're going to get into this
thing and you should pay us to

568
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,400
be in Beauty in Black.
But the philosophy we have is

569
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,280
that music matters and music
should have value and should be

570
00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,920
paid.
We don't have a lot of money in

571
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:04,200
Beauty in Black for, for these
licenses and we use a ton of

572
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,760
music.
And so we tell them upfront and

573
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,280
like, we'll, we've only got this
much and that's what we're

574
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,600
paying other people as well.
Just so you know, we're not

575
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,640
like, you know, just
undervaluing you.

576
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,080
We're undervaluing everybody.
Right.

577
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,280
And so you can say no, you can
just say no and don't want to do

578
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:22,600
it.
We're not going to promise you

579
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,120
that you're going to have like,
you know, this many TikTok, you

580
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,840
know, watchers and, or any of
that shit, because we can't

581
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,480
control that and it's a lie.
Well.

582
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,760
You can't control it.
You, you definitely can't

583
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,720
control it.
But I as an art I, I if I was an

584
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,720
artist, I would imagine.
That I would let you do that I'm

585
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,760
not going to talk anybody into.
It I gotcha.

586
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,280
Promises like that if you say,
Oh my God, I love beauty in

587
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,360
black.
I have to be.

588
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,280
I mean, we, we, we did the
clearances for, for several

589
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,440
seasons of, of the game FIFA,
right?

590
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,640
And the money they paid for, for
licensing on FIFA is, is

591
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,280
miniscule to like what like a
big film will pay and all that

592
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,280
kind of stuff.
But guaranteed if you, if FIFA

593
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,280
calls up one of these artists
who's kind of like breaking

594
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,960
through and stuff and said, we
want to put you in FIFA, they

595
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,280
are like stoked.
They are so stoked.

596
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,440
They're like, Oh my God, I'm a
FIFA artist now.

597
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:15,840
And.
It's like it's.

598
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,000
Like bragging rights to the
entire world because everybody

599
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,080
plays this and then they get
super excited and they can

600
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,720
literally tell everybody they
know I'm in FIFA and it's like,

601
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,400
it totally makes it happen.
People are like absolutely,

602
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,760
absolutely, we'll do the deal,
you know, and they'll do it for

603
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,040
not very much money, but we do
the same deal with everybody

604
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,840
unless it's like a big superstar
that we want to do.

605
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,240
But they tend to want to go for
the up and coming, you know,

606
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,920
artists out of Nigeria and
stuff.

607
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,840
So it's like they want to blow
these guys up too, so.

608
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:46,960
It's awesome.
It's really cool judgment.

609
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,960
Calls based on this and and and
you know, anybody who tells you

610
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,560
that you should do this because
you're going to get famous and

611
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,680
you know, we're bigger than
anything is a lie because that

612
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,160
could be true, but it should be
coming from a place where music

613
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,520
has value and you should be paid
something fair.

614
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,560
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
I totally agree with that.

615
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,720
I was thinking actually more
from the other side than the

616
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,920
studios, the studio side in that
case.

617
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,080
That's all.
That's what I was asking about.

618
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,960
But from the studio side I
totally agree with you that in

619
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,960
the sense like the moral thing
to do I would imagine, or the

620
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,880
fair thing.
To agree come at me and my

621
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,080
people constantly.
I bet.

622
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,560
My music in your movie.
I please put my music in your

623
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:25,240
movie.
Put it in.

624
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,320
I love Tyler Perry.
I want to be in this thing.

625
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:28,640
Whatever.
Let's do it.

626
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,400
And then I don't make a decision
based on on, you know,

627
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,800
somebody's desire to get in a
Tyler Perry movie.

628
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,800
I make a decision on what's best
for the movie and tells the

629
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,440
story.
Yeah, yeah, definitely,

630
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,680
definitely.
How different is get is the

631
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,480
gaming world and the television
world and the and the film world

632
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,360
from one another when it comes
to this kind of to to the music?

633
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:50,400
It's subtle.
It's subtle.

634
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:56,880
I mean, films are obviously much
more longer stretch of time that

635
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,080
you're able to work on
something.

636
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,760
It's much more of a of a slower
pace.

637
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,000
And they tend to, you know,
except for like an independent

638
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,040
film, they tend to have a little
bit bigger budgets.

639
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:12,040
And so you could make decisions.
You can watch something, play it

640
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,040
back and, and going forward and
see if it really works and all

641
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,880
that kind of stuff.
Whereas in television, again

642
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,239
going back to the model Beauty
in Black, we those are we did

643
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:29,440
16-1 hour episodes the first and
second season and we were

644
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,520
literally given a week to do 2
episodes.

645
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,920
Wow.
So and that was, you know, 8

646
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,159
weeks, 16 episodes, no time to
think, put the music in, make

647
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:42,199
sure we would pre clear a lot of
stuff too.

648
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,600
So just because we didn't have
the flexibility of like wanting

649
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,480
to put something in and then
waiting on, you know,

650
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,960
negotiations, we would pre
negotiate, you know, some of

651
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,360
these fees and be like, drop it
in, let's go.

652
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,520
And then we tell them.
If it was used or not, you know,

653
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,880
that kind of thing.
It was totally different pace

654
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,760
that that's an extreme version.
Most TV series are going to have

655
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,000
a lot more time to be able to do
that, but it's still a lot

656
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,080
faster than a film.
And then games on the other

657
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,640
hand, it is a long time that
they are in development and all

658
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,920
these things and thinking about
these things and and be able to

659
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,720
play songs and work with score.
And it's very much more involved

660
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:25,480
because you have to be have the
score be adaptable to like

661
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,280
different scenarios and it
changes whenever the player

662
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,200
decides that they're going to do
something different, like if

663
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:32,160
all.
Of a sudden, they're going to.

664
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:36,040
Pull out a sword and attack
something right in the middle of

665
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,040
like this beautiful Meadow or
something like that.

666
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,360
You have to go from Meadow music
to metal music, you know?

667
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,040
And be able.
To seamlessly transition.

668
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,480
I made that one up fine.
Yeah, let's close these guys.

669
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,840
It's great.
Between the the score as part of

670
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,080
the, the, the the writing
process, they have to be able to

671
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,400
make it so that that the the
songs don't or the music doesn't

672
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,080
like bump against each other and
make the the gameplay feel

673
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,360
wrong.
You know what I mean?

674
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,240
Yeah.
And also one of the the big

675
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,120
things about games is it's the
the only one of those that's not

676
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,200
a fixed medium.
So whereas like a film, you

677
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,800
finish it, you release it and
it's done right.

678
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,640
TV shows, same thing, release
it, it's done right.

679
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,920
Games you can go and and you
know like with like FIFA or

680
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,560
something like that if you're
playing and some reason like

681
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,920
some one of the players that's
in one of the teams becomes like

682
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,120
a huge superstar, you can go and
adapt it and have like you know

683
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,400
downloads that'll like change
some of the music and see like

684
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,720
if you want to play this player
here's a modular kind of thing

685
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:46,800
that you can do that this is
this player's favorite songs and

686
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,240
and change it as it goes so.
Yeah, wow.

687
00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:52,840
It's probably, it's bigger
projects than I imagine, right,

688
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,720
Because you have to have a lot,
you have to be able to adapt to,

689
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,720
you have to have the potential
response to a lot of different

690
00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:02,360
scenarios and they all have to
be pre.

691
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,800
I mean, that's The thing is.
It's there's, you know, there's,

692
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,720
there's like, you know, giant
games like, you know, like.

693
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,480
Like even the Mario theme song
is is classic or whatever.

694
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,720
Yeah, but I mean.
Like then there's also like

695
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:20,800
these, you know, portable, you
know, downloadable games that

696
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,800
are made in somebody's garage,
you know?

697
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:24,600
And.
It yeah, it's still like, you

698
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,280
know, it's, it's a different
thing of, of scope, but you

699
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,360
know, but the same philosophy on
how you craft it.

700
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,560
I see, I see, I see.
And Which one do you enjoy the

701
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,240
most working with?
Working on.

702
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,400
I like.
Films you like films I.

703
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,360
Like films.
It's yeah, where I came up,

704
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,720
where I grew up, you know?
Yeah, so cool.

705
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:51,200
So you get a script and in the
script it has, you know, all the

706
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,520
lines, it's got the dialogue.
And then it does it usually say

707
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,920
in the script, you know, in the
scene instructions or whatever

708
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,040
it's called, you know, XY and Z
song begins to play or.

709
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,600
Sometimes, I mean, like with
with Tyler Perry, he'll

710
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,480
sometimes put in songs in the
script.

711
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,000
And because he is the writer,
the director and the producer

712
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,240
and the star, those will
probably stay, right.

713
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,400
In other cases, when you're
doing that, the writer sells the

714
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,560
script, hands it off, it says,
you know, the band starts to

715
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,840
perform Stairway to Heaven and
then the producer sees that and

716
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,800
goes, oh, no, they don't.
They're not paying for a

717
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,480
Stairway to Heaven.
And so it's gone.

718
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,040
You know, it could be written
into the script, but again,

719
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,520
those are just like, you know,
that kind of stuff is just a

720
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:41,280
rough guide because when it gets
into production, you know, even

721
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,600
if somebody's singing fly, fly
me to the moon in, in the in the

722
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,960
script, the director goes, I
hate that song.

723
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,280
I want them to be singing, you
know, something totally

724
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,640
different.
And then, OK, they're singing

725
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,960
something totally different.
Or if like it's written in like

726
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,520
the the end titles role and then
you hear, you know, ACDC and

727
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,160
then the director's like, no,
that's not what I want.

728
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,440
I want it to be score.
And so now it's score.

729
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,200
So it could be written in there,
but it doesn't mean that it's,

730
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:10,120
it's totally, absolutely set in
stone.

731
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,000
Like my obligation is to then,
you know, give recommendations

732
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,000
and say if you use Stairway to
Heaven, it's going to be 7

733
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,840
figures.
And if you're ready to pay for

734
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,680
that, I'll go and secure those
rights for you.

735
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:27,080
Or try, you know, yeah.
But so that would be like, you

736
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:28,880
know, pre production, try and
get those rights.

737
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,200
What it says in the script, it'd
be literal about it.

738
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,640
But also be smart and give
recommendations saying this is

739
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,280
going to be really expensive.
Here's some other options

740
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,200
recommended if you like Led
Zeppelin kind of stuff.

741
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,200
Yeah, I gotcha.
I gotcha.

742
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,000
And how much what you
recommended, you recommended

743
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,800
similar types of, by the way,
it's kind of fun.

744
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,040
I feel like it's like sharing a
song with a friend and like, Oh

745
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,120
yeah, if you like this, I'll
turn you on to that, you know?

746
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,600
That's our job.
It's like who's the cheap

747
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,080
version of this?
It's really cool.

748
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:57,800
And by the way, there are a lot
of them out there.

749
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,200
I've noticed at least, you know,
like all my friends, I, I listen

750
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,320
to a lot of different genres of
music and all my friends and I

751
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,280
have like different friends
compartmentalised for each

752
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,160
genre.
And you know, and each time I'll

753
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,160
show them something new, they'll
come back with something similar

754
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,320
or better within minutes that
I've never heard of.

755
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,240
And I just can't, I, I, it's
hard to keep track of

756
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:18,120
everything, you know, I mean,
it's really, really cool.

757
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,640
So you said that you got to go
into the in person?

758
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,440
Industry a lot in person
entertainment a lot or events

759
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,040
rather.
I'm sorry, in person livestock,

760
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,200
yes.
Has that rebounded?

761
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,840
Is that industry kind of gone?
Is that back?

762
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,320
Not at all.
I mean it's.

763
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,560
Different, it's different.
I think that, you know, with

764
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,080
streaming and everything that
being so readily available and

765
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:49,120
it's and it seems so, you know,
it's so cheap to just stream a

766
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:50,800
song and listen to it.
That you.

767
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,360
Know live is is very vibrant you
know it's it's it's it's come

768
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,720
back in a lot of ways that's why
you know like vinyl is come back

769
00:40:58,720 --> 00:40:59,360
it's.
Because.

770
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:02,640
You want something that has that
has value, you know, and, and

771
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,360
experience is something that's
going to have value, a live kind

772
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,680
of event and stuff like that.
It's not, it's not perfect.

773
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,560
The industry is not, you know,
always going to be like, you

774
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,920
know, blowing up, but it's it is
one something that is still like

775
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:16,680
actually I think has more value
now.

776
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,960
And so, you know, people want an
experience, they want to hold

777
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,120
the physical thing.
They don't.

778
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,560
Want to just?
Be like, Oh yeah, that song,

779
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:25,680
Here you go.
Boom, here it is.

780
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,360
I mean, like when I grew up,
sorry.

781
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,760
I used to call up KXOU was the
local college radio station.

782
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:39,720
And when I was in, in junior
high and high school, we'd stay

783
00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:47,720
up until midnight on a Saturday.
And Stella on straight pop with

784
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:50,920
straight pop was the DJ then.
And she still is.

785
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,920
And she would play all the punk
rock stuff.

786
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,560
And so we you could call her,
you'd physically just pick up

787
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,520
the phone, call Stella and be
like, Stella, can you play TV

788
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,320
Party by Black Flag?
And she's like, yeah, sure.

789
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:04,760
Hold on a second.
Talk to you.

790
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,440
Later, Joel, you know, with our
tape recorder, you know, I'm

791
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,720
play, record, pause, and when it
comes on, we'd take the pause

792
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:14,760
button off and we'd record it.
It's so experience and it was.

793
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,520
Because we didn't have digital,
we didn't have things that this

794
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,240
and I couldn't afford to go out
and buy all the records so.

795
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,000
I had one of my buddies from
college and my former roommate

796
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,880
Sam, who actually, he moved me
to Seattle.

797
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,880
He's a Brewer, but he's also a
musician, a beer Brewer rather.

798
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,360
And, and he used to run the
radio station in Binghamton,

799
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,400
upstate New York for the
college.

800
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,800
And I'd TuneIn from wherever I
was, you know, whenever his, it

801
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,160
was his hour and I'd always give
him a call and I'd always, you

802
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,080
know, recommend a couple of
songs and he'd always laugh and

803
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,800
you know, and then, you know, it
would be different time slots,

804
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,520
you know, so like 1 semester
when he first started, he had

805
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,800
like the three to three to four,
3 to 5:00 AM slot.

806
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,120
And you would be coming back
from a party and like, we'd just

807
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,000
see him getting up and getting
ready to get out of the, you

808
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,400
know, walk out of his apartment.
And it was, and he had a host

809
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,560
room of records.
And he would, and I'd ask him

810
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,640
about the song, he'd go to the
room and he'd pick out the

811
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,520
record and pop it on.
And he invited me to a couple of

812
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,480
the shows and I came down and
it's, it's, it's like a music,

813
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,400
it's a music junkie heaven.
It's so cool.

814
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,200
It's so much fun to be in those
kind of environments.

815
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,840
I tell you the the, the Loyola
Marymount station because it's,

816
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,320
it's, it's not an algorithm.
It's not going to play me what I

817
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:31,880
want to hear it's.
Going to play.

818
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,960
Whatever these people play, you
know, like I can't control it

819
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:36,520
and I'll be experiencing
something new.

820
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,720
And I listen to KZSC up in Santa
Cruz.

821
00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:42,520
I listen to that online.
I listen to like tons of like

822
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,320
college radio stations because I
always hear something that I

823
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,800
didn't expect or didn't know
about or whatever.

824
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:51,760
And it's but I get so much of my
inspiration from that still.

825
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,520
I was going to say how much?
What do you what do you notice

826
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,120
about music today versus music
while you're growing up?

827
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,360
I guess you listened to punk
rock growing up, but everything.

828
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,800
But yeah, everything.
So what do you think of music

829
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:03,200
today?
That was.

830
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,640
My mainstay I was, I was a punk
kid here in LA.

831
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:11,720
But music today versus it's
easier to make.

832
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,160
And so.
There's like very low threshold

833
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,320
to be able to create music.
Now people just get out their

834
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,920
garage band and make it, you
know, but that means that

835
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,080
there's it's just flooded with
stuff on on online and stuff

836
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:26,880
like that.
So it's, it's kind of hard to

837
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,600
filter through and kind of find
something that's a gem.

838
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,520
I that's why I listen to like
the radio.

839
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,000
That's why I like, I talk to
friends about what it is so that

840
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,640
I don't have to sit there and,
and be flooded with because I

841
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,520
get, I get, I get so many emails
every morning I wake up and

842
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,440
literally I've got emails from
every single artist that you can

843
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,800
imagine of like listen to this.
And by and large, unless it's

844
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,000
like personalized to me and
knows they know what I'm working

845
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,120
on, I spend my morning just
going delete, delete, delete,

846
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:58,880
delete.
Oh my man, listen to this stuff.

847
00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:01,920
Yeah, because you don't.
Yeah, it's.

848
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,320
Like I have to just get through
and delete all the stuff unless

849
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,720
somebody is like, Oh my God, I
love Beauty in Black.

850
00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:09,160
And yeah, I know your season 3
is going to come up.

851
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,360
This would be great.
I'm a Chicago area hip hop

852
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,520
artist and blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, yes, I will

853
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,080
listen.
To that right, right, right.

854
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,640
So you so, so you got to have
some kind of something that

855
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,000
makes you stand out and also
relevant to the projects you're

856
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,880
working on if if you're trying
to get your attention.

857
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:24,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a
e-mail.

858
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,600
First of all, sorry.
Don't call me dear music

859
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:34,000
supervisor.
Right, yeah, I've got a couple

860
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,960
of those emails also, like dear
come together podcasts and I'm

861
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,120
like yes, my name is all over
the website.

862
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,120
You couldn't take 5 minutes to
figure out you know what my

863
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,280
first name is, then you know,
whatever the.

864
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,520
Ones the emails that are like
dear Joel.

865
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,720
I really loved episode one O 6
in Beauty and Black where you

866
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:53,280
used this song and my song is
very similar to that.

867
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,280
I'm like, oh, OK, OK.
You are.

868
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,280
So talented Joel, the music that
you put in your shows blows me

869
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,320
away every time.
It's like you're reading my

870
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,240
mind.
Oh, yeah, Oh, yeah.

871
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,560
My first podcast that I the way
I got my first guest on my

872
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,280
podcast was sending an e-mail
because I, I actually read his

873
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,120
book, a gentleman named Ben
Fritz.

874
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,160
He wrote a book about Hollywood.
He's a Wall Street Journal

875
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:22,520
writer for a while and and my
first e-mail I sent him was

876
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,840
introduction from a fan and
podcast request, you know, and I

877
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:25,960
told him how much I loved his
book.

878
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,200
And the first thing he said to
me was compliments.

879
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:29,520
We'll get you everywhere.
Let's have a talk.

880
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,520
Let's have a conversation, you
know, let's talk about it.

881
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,160
You got a hold of me too.
Yeah, it is to say I, I, I, I,

882
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,400
I, I'm thinking, listen, this is
salesman, you know, I mean,

883
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,320
being a being a one man show,
I'm sure, you know, is, is a lot

884
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,640
of sales and a lot of
relationships and a lot of a lot

885
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,080
of following up, you know, but
it's, but that's actually go,

886
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,160
you know, full circle back to
the live events kind of thing.

887
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,280
I really feel like that's what
the value of it, you know, is.

888
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,480
And it's hard to kind of put a
dollar value on, you know,

889
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,640
relationships and networking and
stuff like that.

890
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,040
And I know that during COVID, a
lot of companies felt like, holy

891
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,280
cow, look how much money we're
saving by not doing corporate

892
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,800
dinners or not going to drinks
anymore as a team and not doing

893
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,000
this.
But then everything kind of felt

894
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,240
cold and dead, you know, like,
you know, and like even this, I

895
00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:16,240
mean, how much, how much fun
would it be if we had, you know,

896
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:18,560
if we were able to sit together
with a cup of coffee or a beer

897
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:20,480
in a studio?
And, you know, I mean, this is

898
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,240
great, you know, but ideally,
you know, the ideal world, I'd

899
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,880
fly you out, have you come down
and, you know, and sit down with

900
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:28,400
you because that's the ideal
experience.

901
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,160
You know, we're working on it,
man.

902
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,160
Well.
I mean, look, I, I mean for, for

903
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:36,600
my company, like when COVID hit,
I had, you know, another

904
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,640
supervisor working for me and
like 3 coordinators and stuff at

905
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,720
the time.
And we would get together like

906
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:45,160
every day and go over stuff.
And then COVID and we're all

907
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,480
apart.
And I feel like they're, what I,

908
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,480
the way I came up to was like,
you know, the supervisors and

909
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,880
the labels and the publishers
would all get together and go

910
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,400
someplace they don't, they would
invite us out to see a show and

911
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,040
we'd get together and get to
know each other.

912
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,640
And that just went out the door.
So it's like a lot of the people

913
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,520
who were working for me at the
time did not get the experience

914
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,440
of, of being able to, to mix it
up with the people that we work

915
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,720
with and get to know each other.
And I think the industry really

916
00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:14,080
suffered because of it.
I think that people lost some of

917
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,640
the big skills and some of the
connections that are important

918
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:22,080
because my job is so much easier
because I'm, you know, work

919
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,560
friends with so many people.
I've.

920
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,640
Been doing this so long, it's
like, you know, it's like I was

921
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:34,080
an assistant the same time as
the CEO for Warner Chapel was an

922
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:35,680
assistant.
And so she's a dear friend of

923
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,880
mine because we went back and we
went to shows together and

924
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,440
stuff.
And now she's like big mucky

925
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,600
muck.
And it's the same thing.

926
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,520
You know, it's like that's how
you make these relationships

927
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,080
where I or I can pick up the
phone and get like Doctor Dre's

928
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,200
lawyer on the phone because I
worked with them like, you know,

929
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,160
20 years ago.
And so it was like that.

930
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:59,200
Relationship and I always make
sure that my, my, that my

931
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:05,640
interactions with people are
honest and, you know, no games

932
00:49:05,720 --> 00:49:08,880
and, and, you know, friendly
and, and, you know, really like

933
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,720
to say thank you to people
because you never know down the

934
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:14,960
road where you're going to need
to pick up the phone and ask for

935
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,160
a favour or something like that.
And we do it all.

936
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:21,280
The time and it's like, like my,
the people who work for me are

937
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,800
able to do their jobs really
well and, you know, do

938
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:25,280
clearances and do all that
stuff.

939
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,080
But if something's going a
little bit sideways, like we

940
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:34,200
just had a clearance for some
something from Tupac and it was

941
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,280
going really slowly, really
slowly.

942
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,280
And we were getting responses
because the the state wasn't

943
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,480
taking it seriously and stuff.
And so I got on the phone and I

944
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,320
said, can you make this a
priority?

945
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,680
And they said, yeah, it was
done.

946
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,360
By the way, a lot of my problems
in business, in life, have been

947
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,800
resolved with a phone call
instead of an e-mail or a text.

948
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,560
So many issues have been
resolved by picking up the phone

949
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,200
and saying, what's the story?
Dead skill?

950
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:01,560
What's the?
Deal.

951
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,000
Yeah, like the yeah, by the way,
I I also hear it because it's

952
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:09,000
not it's not entirely pleasant
to call someone and say AI need

953
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,480
something or BI don't have news
that you necessarily want to

954
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,800
hear or maybe I'm bothering you
out of the blue or whatever it

955
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,600
is.
Like I, I, I do understand that

956
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,200
level of it, but well, you know,
when I started in sales, I would

957
00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:21,320
like, I work with my, I, I, it's
a family business.

958
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,720
I work with my dad.
I used to literally, we worked 2

959
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:27,320
desks apart from one another,
you know, across, and every time

960
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,680
I phoned a ring with a potential
customer, I would run around,

961
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,000
give the phone to my dad and
answer the phone for me, you

962
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,480
know, and, and give it to him.
And then eventually I was like,

963
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,800
eventually I'd realized, what's
the worst that can happen?

964
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:40,680
I'll just say, I don't know.
I'll, I'll find out, I'll get

965
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:42,760
your number, I'll call you back,
you know, and I started doing

966
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,120
that and then all of a sudden I
realized there's nothing to be

967
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,360
afraid of, you know, and it
took, for it took, it took

968
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,840
probably a year for me to, you
know, really get that skill.

969
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,640
So I encourage anyone listening
or anyone in general to really

970
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,040
work on that, work on that.
Too is that, you know, I'm a big

971
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,480
fan of fake it till you make it,
you know, and say, yes, you

972
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,440
could do anything and everything
like that because that's how I

973
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,000
got here.
Like, like I, you know, you

974
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,680
know, I didn't have the skill
sets in a lot of ways and to get

975
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:13,120
jobs and stuff at the same time
when I was at at the head of

976
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,000
music for Trimark when I was
first started, I had a year in

977
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,360
my under my belt of actually
doing this industry.

978
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,160
So I would get on the phone with
like the heads of other music

979
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,000
departments at big studios and
be like, can I take it to lunch?

980
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,320
Because I don't know what the
hell I'm doing.

981
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,680
And I would love to hear it's
because none of it's online

982
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:31,720
back.
Then because there.

983
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,840
Wasn't that kind of a thing?
This was back when we had to fax

984
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:39,120
requests and stuff.
Sure, high pitched beeps I.

985
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,040
Mean the relationships that I
formed by telling, being honest

986
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:47,160
with these, these other heads of
studios was great because they

987
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,520
were like, Oh, yeah, completely.
Come on, let's go.

988
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,720
And I'll, I'll give tell you
anything you need to do because

989
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:54,840
there's, you know, there's no
reason not to in this community

990
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,080
that I'm in is very much like a
generous kind of like, you know,

991
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,360
it's like if I don't get a gig
and I find out that one of my

992
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,840
peers got the job that I didn't
get, I'd be like, oh, good

993
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,200
choice.
That's actually great.

994
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:06,760
You know, they're actually
wonderful.

995
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,160
I think that's actually a better
choice than than hiring me.

996
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,280
So it's kind of like that kind
of a community is is hard to

997
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:13,640
find and I'm really grateful for
it.

998
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,040
Yeah, Yeah, It's a it's, it's,
it's really, really cool.

999
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:23,040
It's really special.
I what do you think that the

1000
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,040
industry has changed so
dramatically that you would

1001
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,720
recommend to someone young and
starting out in it that they

1002
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:33,280
would follow the kind of path
that you did, which was try to

1003
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:38,080
get into, you know, a place
where as many hats as possible

1004
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,080
be OK with, you know, taking on
more responsibilities than you

1005
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:42,800
thought you signed up for and
that'll work out for you.

1006
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,920
Or what kind of direction do you
think people need to take these

1007
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,360
days to kind of make it?
Really, it's so hard to get into

1008
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,640
the industry.
My first instruction is if

1009
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,720
you're at at a university, do
internships.

1010
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,040
That's how you start meeting
everybody and you Start learning

1011
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,880
the craft, you know.
And then when it comes time to,

1012
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:07,200
when it comes time to find a
job, take anything.

1013
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:09,280
Take anything.
Anything.

1014
00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:13,080
Yeah, basically, unless it's
like terrible, terrible work and

1015
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,560
terrible work environment.
Take anything because you don't

1016
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:17,960
know what path you're going to
go down to.

1017
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,040
And once you have a job, it's
easier than to find other

1018
00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:24,800
things, make the connections
while you're working and then

1019
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,480
find another job.
You know, I mean, I, I, I'm a

1020
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,800
big fan of loyalty and, and
sticking with it and everything

1021
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:32,400
like that.
But with like my people, I'm,

1022
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,040
I'm like, if you're finding that
you have, are like there's

1023
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,120
opportunities for you, tell me
about it first.

1024
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,120
If you're like looking at like
going at in studio or something

1025
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,760
like that and like they're
courting you, tell me right off

1026
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,440
the bat like #1 be honest with
me.

1027
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,000
Don't surprise me about this
stuff because in return I will

1028
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,160
give you the best letter of
recommendation that you will

1029
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,840
ever, ever get.
And I will say I love working

1030
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,200
with this person at my company,
but this opportunity of being

1031
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,440
able to go over to the studio
and work for you is something

1032
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,840
that I cannot tell them not to
take.

1033
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,360
And I.
I totally support and that's the

1034
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,560
exchange that we have is that if
they need to go somewhere else

1035
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,560
and they have a great
opportunity, they tell me early

1036
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,160
and I say, yeah, go, you know,
and it's worked out for all of

1037
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:17,600
us.
And so I've got a lot of people

1038
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,480
who used to work for me are up
in high level positions.

1039
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,720
So it's like, I don't know what
that wasn't what what you asked,

1040
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:25,720
but.
No, it is.

1041
00:54:25,720 --> 00:54:27,520
It's what you would have meant.
Take any.

1042
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,240
Job.
Take any job because you don't

1043
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:32,680
know where that's going to lead.
And it could lead to your

1044
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,600
because I didn't know I was
going to be a music supervisor

1045
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:35,800
because I didn't know that was a
job.

1046
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:39,400
But then I ended up there and
I've been doing it for 30 years.

1047
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,400
So you just don't know where
it's going to take you.

1048
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:46,000
And if you are too picky and
finicky and think that you

1049
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:49,400
should be the head of XYZ right
off the bat of the gates, you're

1050
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:50,880
insane.
So.

1051
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,080
Be humble, take whatever
position you get.

1052
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:58,000
Entertainment business is tough.
It doesn't always pay the best.

1053
00:54:58,240 --> 00:55:01,160
And I always say that you either
got to be dumb or crazy to want

1054
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,440
to do it.
Most of them are kind of crazy

1055
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,840
because they love film,
television, music, all that

1056
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:08,240
stuff.
And that's what they want to do.

1057
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,360
And so that's, that's, that's
it, Go go for it.

1058
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,800
And if you're dumb, OK, go for
it too.

1059
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,880
Good luck.
Yeah.

1060
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:22,640
And it's interesting because I
only, I always imagined, you

1061
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:24,880
know, when I said I want to work
in Hollywood, I'm like, I got to

1062
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,000
work for Disney, like period.
You know, like that's the

1063
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,520
company.
But as I like, started diving

1064
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,560
into this, I realized that
there's tons of small mom and

1065
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,920
pop businesses, that there's a
whole ecosystem of Hollywood or

1066
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,160
entertainment rather that exists
when it ended, you know, within

1067
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:43,760
it of itself.
And so, yeah, yeah, I don't.

1068
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:46,800
Know anybody that woke up like
when they were a kid and we're

1069
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,720
like, I want to be a Foley
artist.

1070
00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:52,680
I want to do footsteps for
elevation, you know, but it's

1071
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,840
like a great job.
It's really like everyone of you

1072
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,200
go to these sound stages.
I take like my interns when they

1073
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,120
come in, I'm like, we're going
to go to the Foley stage because

1074
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,920
it'll blow you away.
We go to the Foley stage and

1075
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:07,200
they've got like 90 different
kinds of shoes and broccoli and

1076
00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:10,200
celery to make sounds and like
glass to break.

1077
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,040
And it's, it's like that's what
they do is they, they make sound

1078
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:14,240
effects all day long.
And I'm like.

1079
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:15,320
That.
So is that stuff usually in

1080
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:16,960
house or hired out, that kind of
stuff?

1081
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:20,960
There's people who are
freelance.

1082
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:23,280
A lot of it is like, it's at a
sound house.

1083
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,680
Like a sound supervisor is going
to be like, we'll mix it here

1084
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,080
and we'll, you know, do all the
editing here and we'll do our

1085
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,960
Foley here and we'll have like
Walla, which is like, you know,

1086
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,800
background people.
Like if you're in a restaurant,

1087
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:38,600
people are there.
Literally it's like people in a

1088
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,720
room going, how are you doing?
I'm doing fine.

1089
00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:43,040
I'm glad to see you.
Like a whole bunch of them all

1090
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,360
at once doing that.
And that's a, that's a job.

1091
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,880
Yeah.
It's like background Walla, you

1092
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,680
know, it's like, and that all
takes place under like, you

1093
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,200
know, usually one like sound
supervisor is going to do that

1094
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:55,360
and take care of all those
details.

1095
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,560
And then I'm the music guy, so
I'm the enemy.

1096
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,600
So you're the enemy because
you're because you're

1097
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:02,480
contrasting their sounds.
Yes.

1098
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,400
That's right, it's.
It's, it's, it's music, dialogue

1099
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,520
and effects.
Those are the, the three things

1100
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,280
that go into a mix and they're
all kind of competing.

1101
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,400
And of course, I'm like maybe
turn down some of those effects

1102
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:17,960
because you can't say turn down
the dialogue because dialogue,

1103
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,200
dialogue, all those.
Things I I was, I showed my high

1104
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,200
school class, I teach high
school English part time.

1105
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,240
And one assign, you know, and
one is, yeah, you got to, you

1106
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,560
got to pause it for a minute.
I, no, I got, I think I got to

1107
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:32,240
get going.
I think I have something backing

1108
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:33,800
into this.
I didn't know how long this was

1109
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:34,960
supposed to be.
But no problem.

1110
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:36,680
No problem.
OK, well, let's let's call it

1111
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:38,840
here, Joe.
Thank you.

1112
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:40,000
So.
Much if you if you had another

1113
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:41,600
question, I have time for a
second because they're they're

1114
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,600
going to be calling me and
that's why I know I have to jump

1115
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,320
but.
OK, so I'll cut that part out.

1116
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,560
Well, I didn't even think I had
a question.

1117
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:55,760
I was going to say that I, I, I
showed them the the Toy Story

1118
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,240
and I was explaining to them.
I was showing them the

1119
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,080
background stuff in the in.
I was like everything was CGI.

1120
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,320
It started with a blank movie
screen, you know, and sorry,

1121
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,840
blank computer screen.
I was like every shadow that you

1122
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:10,520
see, every ripple, every ray of
sunshine that could that you

1123
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,360
know that that's in this shot.
You think it's intentional,

1124
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:16,560
right?
It's put there every single time

1125
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:18,880
that you that you know that you
have this background behind me

1126
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:20,800
and that light bulb is over
there and you see the reflection

1127
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:24,680
off the off the off the window,
you know, like that was that was

1128
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,440
black.
Yeah, same thing with sound.

1129
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:29,560
You know, it's like you have
production sound that's recorded

1130
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,520
when you shoot it, but almost
everything else, including the

1131
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,160
music, is all created
intentionally.

1132
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:37,440
And it's like, we're on the
stage and we're like, you know,

1133
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:42,200
a car peels out in the driveway
and you're like, I don't like

1134
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:43,240
that.
Doesn't sound right.

1135
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:44,600
They're like, oh, let me try
another one.

1136
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:46,680
And you try like all these
different cars peeing up, you

1137
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:51,360
find the right one.
Amazing footsteps.

1138
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,240
Footsteps are all created.
You know, every time it'll,

1139
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:57,600
it'll blow you away when you
watch movies and you're like,

1140
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,200
like people like talking off
screen is all created because

1141
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:02,920
somebody's like, I need somebody
to say this.

1142
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:03,960
And you're like, OK, there we
go.

1143
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:05,800
Now you got it.
So cool.

1144
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:06,480
So cool.
Yeah.

1145
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:08,920
And then you you hear, you hear
$200 million budgets and you're

1146
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:10,520
like, what could that possibly
go to?

1147
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:12,320
And then you hear, then you
think about everything that

1148
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:13,960
we're talking about and you're
like, oh, now I see where it all

1149
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:15,600
goes to.
Makes a ton of sense.

1150
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:18,080
Joe, I really appreciate your
time.

1151
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,240
This is so this is so much fun.
This is such a pleasure.

1152
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,280
I'm really so happy you got to
connect and thank you so much

1153
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:25,200
for the opportunity and for
being great.

1154
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:26,640
This is this is awesome
conversation.

1155
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:27,520
I really appreciate it.
Well.

1156
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:30,760
And if you celebrate, which I
think you do, have an easy fast.

1157
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,320
Thank you very much.
I do and I will I'll do my best

1158
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,360
to at least I'm pretty good
about that and and I look to I

1159
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:39,360
hope I hope to be in touch.
This is this is really such a

1160
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:40,320
pleasure.
Thank you so much, Joe.

1161
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:41,760
Absolutely.
You reach out anytime.

1162
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:43,640
All right, take care.
Have a great one.

1163
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:44,200
Bye.
Bye now.

1164
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:57,280
Bye.
Music.