Entertainment Series 8: Billy Aronson / Creating RENT / Playwriting & Screenwriting /Kids & Adult TV

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and we're live with Billy
Aronson.

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Billy, what's going on?
How are you?

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Ephraim, so glad to be here.
I'm so happy that you're here

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too.
I, I'm excited for a number of

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reasons.
Number one is I came across your

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site and I, I audibly laughed
out loud a bunch of times.

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And, and then I was also struck
with the holy shits of, of all

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the great credits that you have.
So that's number one.

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Number two is I have been
exhausted and miserable the last

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week and you're and just the
goofiness of this beginning of

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the conversation is already
already taking a load off.

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So I really appreciate it.
Thank you.

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Thank you.
I goofiness can help sometimes.

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It definitely does.
I, I, the truth is that I'm, I'm

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very aware of it.
I need to surround myself with

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more of it, you know, because I
think that it's not something

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that you necessarily take for
granted.

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And it creates a, you know, a
certain light heartedness that

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is, it's important, I think, to
have every now and then.

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Yeah, yeah, important to me for
sure.

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Definitely tell me a little bit
about yourself, tell me a little

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bit about who you are and and
what you've done, and then we'll

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kind of dive into some of the
fun, creative and talk a bit,

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talk a little about your journey
along the way.

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Well, I think of myself as a
playwright.

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I kind of thought of myself as a
playwright before I was actually

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writing plays.
In fact, when I was a kid and I

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started doing that in college
and sort of as an obsession.

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I just had to, I didn't know
anything about it, but I had

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just, my heart had been broken
by a girl when I was 17.

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And it just opened my eyes to
the world.

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I saw things and feelings and
everything was exploding in my

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head and I had to do something
with it.

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And I couldn't put words to it.
So although I, I was, I played

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music a lot.
I've played jazz flute and piano

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and stuff before that.
I thought, I need this.

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I need something that, that I
can control that will express

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this insanity that I'm feeling
about the world and excitement,

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the pain, the joy, all of that.
And so I just started writing

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plays and I learned how to do it
by failing.

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And then when after college, I,
I wrote all through college, I

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wrote plays and made my friends
be in them.

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And then I went right on to
drama school at Yale and learned

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how how that I would could not
that no one could tell me how to

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do this, that I had to figure it
out on my own.

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And then I went to New York and
learn how to do it.

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And while learning, I I got
involved in the creation of the

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musical Rent.
It was actually my idea.

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I work with Jonathan Larson.
I'll just give you this the

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short version.
You can ask for more anything

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that I'm saying.
Yes, we're going to go back, but

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yeah, some.
Original concept and additional

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lyrics for rent.
I figured out how to make money

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with my writing while I was
learning to write my plays,

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writing for TV a lot and
children's television in

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particular.
And that turned out to be a real

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adventure.
And maybe 10 years ago, I

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actually got to write to make
create my own children's

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television show with an artist.
We made a cartoon called Peg

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Plus Cat that teaches math on
PBS.

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Nice.
And having already written for

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Beavis and Butthead, encourage
the Cowardly Dog and the Wonder

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Pets, a wide variety of
especially animated stuff.

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I guess Goofy goes with
animation a little bit and and

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yeah, so that's pretty.
I think I touched them.

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Opera is 1 interest of mine.
That led me to work on the, the

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Boem Opera, the Boem musical, a
Rent.

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But also I've started writing
librettos for operas and that's

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been a joyous thing.
Music.

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I like to be near music and
around music.

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I'm not a good musician, but I
like to be near people who are

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because I think when you're,
when you're dancing, you know,

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when music makes you feel so
much so quickly and so

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intensely.
So I like to have something to

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do with that.
Beautiful, beautiful love that

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that was that was a great
elevator pitch for the story.

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Elevator pitch for my life.
I love it.

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I love it.
Excellent.

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I, I hope that what that I could
have an elevator pitch that that

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is that that's concise and
colorful.

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Anyway, I want to, there's a lot
I want to get into because

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there's so much that you said
that was so relatable and so

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much fun.
Starting with your heartbreak,

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which is not the fun thing, but
I always feel like looking back

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on that, I know for myself that,
you know, when I was in high

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school, my first heartbreak at
16 took me like a year and a

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half to recover from.
And it was really, and and I

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really don't know what about it
struck me so deeply.

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And I didn't, I remember not, I
remember feeling that same

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sensation that you're
describing, which is not having

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an outlet and like having all
this and not knowing what to do

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with it, you know, and I
actually ended up comforting my

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or working on comforting myself
with my fellow hopeless

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romantics in my in my class, you
know, the ones that were always

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getting rejected.
And we'd find a collection of

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great slow, sad Billy Joel songs
or, you know, some great, you

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know, pop rock music that we
were first discovering, James

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Taylor and, you know, that all
kind of tender and emotional

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rock, I guess, you know, you
have songs like Summer Highland

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Falls.
I don't know if you're familiar

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with that song, but, you know,
it's either.

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It's weird, these are not the
best of times, but they're the

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only times you've ever known.
And it's either sadness, sadness

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or euphoria, I think is the
mine.

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It's like you have to.
Me.

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It was Joni Mitchell.
There you go, friend.

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Turned me on to Joni Mitchell
and I listened to Blue when I

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was with her and then I couldn't
get over.

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I've still.
Listened to Blue, Yeah.

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And you can't listen.
You can't listen.

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It's the song is so strongly
associated in your brain.

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It's seared in with your with
your relationships.

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I still have songs now that from
a decade ago, you know, or, you

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know, bring back extremely vivid
memories, whether you know, and,

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and just from different girls
that I've gone out without my,

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my life.
But so you, so you always loved

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music and you always found a
way.

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And you're using it kind of to
find a way to express whatever

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you're feel, you know, whatever
you're going through inside.

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Yeah, right.
Yeah, I think, you know, we live

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in a rational world of rules and
logic and you got to achieve

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things.
And it's that's you're

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convinced, you're taught that at
a young age, you pick that up.

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But I think that the power of
the the intuitive and the

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emotional and the subconscious
is much bigger.

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I mean, I think the
consciousness is a little island

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in this huge ocean of emotion
that we have and irrationality

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and passion and music
understands that.

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Music connects me to that.
Yeah.

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I mean, do you find that you
could tap into that while you're

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playing music because you said
that you're.

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Yeah, yeah, the question has
right.

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Jazz is almost it's, it's very
improvision, Improvisional, yes.

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I love improvisation, to tell
you the truth.

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I think everything in life if
the more like improvisation it

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is, the better.
In other words, when you're with

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with jazz is an extreme version
of it, like comedy.

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Improv is, which my daughter
does, where you have to be.

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So in the moment, you're not
looking at yourself, you're not

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thinking about what's this
adding up to.

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You're just experiencing where
you are, who you're with.

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You're listening to everybody
else, and you're responding

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intuitively.
There might be a conscious part,

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but it's mostly intuition.
And like when you're watching a

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basketball player, they're just
there.

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They're in that moment, they're
responding, and it's beautiful

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and exciting.
I think all the most important

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stuff in life happens that way.
The best decisions, and

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certainly the most beauty is
created that way.

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Yeah, definitely, definitely.
So have you found that at a

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younger age or have you found
throughout your life that you

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were able to kind of navigate
your way through emotions or

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through particular chapters of
your life, good or bad, through

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music or through playing music?
Or is it mostly through

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consuming and sharing?
Well, I've tried so hard to, to

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stay close to that musical, to
stay honest and clear and be

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listening and be in the moment
the way you are with music.

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I'm not a musician, but with my
writing, I until I was 60, I was

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very introverted.
I was shy and I couldn't really

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think clearly in the company of
other people.

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So that's, I think that's good
for a playwright by yourself.

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You organize it only I could
only write well when I was

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really relaxed, when I was into
that, that kind of improvisatory

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feeling.
Yeah.

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So I would go back and do that
by myself and then share the

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play with the world.
Yeah.

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I'm not sure I answered your
question.

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But that's OK.
It's because you did answer.

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You answered that you figured
out a method of navigating it

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through playwriting as opposed
to through playing music.

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Yeah, yeah, it sure is exciting
though when you're when you're

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playing music at a party with
other people and you're just,

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you've had a drink or something,
you're all relaxing together.

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It's, it's a closeness that's
just a wonderful feeling to be

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that close to people.
I now do something called after

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I did years of yoga and now I do
this, this cult thing called,

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it's not an actual cult, but
it's like it called 5 rhythms

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dance where we get and it's a
little bit they they appear all

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over the world, but it's in New
York.

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I do it on Sundays for two
hours, 80 people in a room

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moving without talking to each
other.

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But we were late through the
music, just moving to music.

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And I, it's such a wonderful
feeling to be connected to

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people.
That's what I I seek in the

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theater.
Everyone's laughing at the same

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moment.
You're connected impulsively,

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you're connected at some deep
level and it feels great it

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you're part of a community.
You're not alone.

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I mean, as an artist, you're
alone what's inside me.

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But to connect that to other
people is a joy.

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And especially I think the, the
there, there's extra level of

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joy that's that's shared really
by the performer and the

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audience when the performer
behaves in a way that's

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particularly vulnerable and
could be misinterpreted as not

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good.
And the audience responds

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positively and sharing.
And then it's almost like a

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moment like for everyone and
everyone is happy and everyone

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kind of laughs along.
And I feel like the and and and

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and I was actually, and I want
to talk to you about the

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difference between, you know,
the writing for stage, writing

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for screen and performing for
stage and performing for screen

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because it's a different
universe.

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I mean, and I know with my very,
very limited exposure in

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college, but but that was one
thing that I feel like that that

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live feedback with the audience
is something that you don't get

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the same way.
But it's part it's almost part

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of the same magic.
That's a concert in the sense

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that like the great, you know,
Jerry Garcia of the Grateful

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Dead used to say about the early
acid trips when everyone was

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kind of in like these big test,
you know, warehouse and they're

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playing music.
He's like the the for the from

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the band's perspective, the
audience was the emphasis.

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You know, like it was just us
talking to each other and

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sometimes they liked what we
said and sometimes they did it

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and we'd laugh about it and that
was the end of it.

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But like, you know, you got it
with the performing arts it, you

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know, especially with the live
card, I feel like that's really

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a big, big component of it.
Sure is.

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Even I think, you know, it's
obvious with jazz that these

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notes haven't been played
before.

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But even when you're doing
Beethoven's Symphony and

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Orchestra, them, the great
musicians will tell you it's

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like that performance is fresh.
It's like it's never been played

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before every time you do it,
which is tricky, you know, with

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Hamlet or with a classic.
But but that's what makes it

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thrilling.
That's what makes it beautiful.

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Yeah, yeah.
And it's actually because I, and

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I actually was, I, I for a
couple of years, Springsteen

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really saved my emotional state
of mind, you know, and I

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00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,480
connected on a very deep level
to a lot of his, his albums Born

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to Run in Darkness, in the Edge
of Town in particular, where

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like 3 like deep to my like when
I, when I like.

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It's the combination of of
tragedy and and like, like

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almost like mourning and at the
same time defiance and hope like

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00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,520
being placed together in the
same albums was so it just was

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so engaging to me for so many
years.

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One, and then I was thinking a
couple of years ago, I was like,

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00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:40,520
I wonder how he brings this
passion like night after night

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after night, because I feel like
you're singing the same song for

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00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,320
50 years.
You get burned out of it, I

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00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,720
imagine, you know, And I imagine
that's why a lot of bands burn

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00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,920
out, you know, But there's
something, there's something

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about, you know, these great
live performers when they say

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that the performance isn't the
music.

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00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:57,680
The performance is a dance with
the audience.

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And so they seem.
That's what keeps it alive and

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fresh and going strong.
It's so thrilling that they can

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00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,720
do that.
Yeah, I've heard James Taylor do

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00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,040
Fire and Rain alone.
I've seen him four times, and

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00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,600
every time he did it, he does
the hits and it's like he's

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00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,280
never done it before.
He's talking to you.

253
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:14,560
You're just the way that I'm
talking to you.

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00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:17,960
You know, I don't know what
we're going to say, but that's

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00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,600
the way a great performer does
their even the hits.

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00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:25,360
I, I dragged my wife to James
Taylor with and we, and actually

257
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,000
her grandmother found out we
were going and she came to and

258
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,360
he went to Tanglewood last year,
4th of July to watch him in, up

259
00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:37,400
in Tanglewood and it was such a
great experience.

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00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:39,800
Have you been to Tanglewood
before that part?

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00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,520
I've not.
Heard about it many times.

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00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,360
Yeah, I mean, you've heard,
you've heard plenty then, but it

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00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,080
was just one of the best venues.
And the only problem was getting

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00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,120
home at, you know, like leaving.
You're just sitting in a, you

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00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,720
know, parking lot for till 2O
clock in the morning.

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00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,360
So tell me about when you
started playwriting and you said

267
00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,120
that you failed your way through
college.

268
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:05,640
How did you keep pushing through
writing and keep pushing through

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00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,200
get, I guess not being happy the
results that you got, because

270
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,480
that's something, you know, I'll
put down my guitar for six

271
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,560
months at a time and be like, I
freaking can't write a melody

272
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:18,440
for my life or I'm trying to
write a song.

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00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,720
I'm trying to write a poem and
I'm like, I can't get it done.

274
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,160
I just walk away.
You know, how do you how do you

275
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:23,840
do?
How did you do that?

276
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,680
I had to, is all I can say.
I imagine that's how you feel

277
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,160
about songwriting.
You have to keep coming back to

278
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:32,160
it.
You just have to.

279
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,880
I needed it so badly.
So I would write a play, and I

280
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:41,320
guess it's partly a kind of
automatic stupidity.

281
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:47,240
It's like like after finishing a
play, no matter how badly it

282
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,640
went, I believe the next time
I'm going to get it right.

283
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,080
Excuse me.
It's just this feeling that

284
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:53,680
keeps coming back.
Got it.

285
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,880
Now I've got it.
This next one is going to be

286
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,640
amazing, and that's probably
what brings you back to writing

287
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,760
your next song.
It's like the I got no, no, you

288
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,560
know, it might be defying all
odds given how many times I've

289
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,920
failed or how badly I failed,
but this is going to be the one

290
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,800
I still have that I can't.
I couldn't write something new

291
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,160
if I didn't fail.
It was going to be better than

292
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,840
anything I've ever done and
perhaps the best thing in the

293
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,160
world.
And I totally believe, I totally

294
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,000
relate to that.
And but did you, was there a

295
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,000
particular, for example, did you
have like I have a structure

296
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,080
that I try to stick to or try to
develop when it comes to like

297
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,120
lyrics or, or poems?
Or did you have any like when

298
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,440
you, when it came to
playwriting, how did you go

299
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:37,120
about developing characters,
lyrics, performance, whatever,

300
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,720
whatever it was?
How did you learn to keep all

301
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,240
these things in mind?
Did you learn to keep like, did

302
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,600
you like have any idea about
this stuff or you just kind of

303
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,160
improvising?
What was it like?

304
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,320
Yes, I was just kind of
improvising.

305
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,400
I didn't have a formal
playwriting class.

306
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,080
I just wrote exactly what I
wanted to see on a stage.

307
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,200
And it unfortunately took me a
long time to realize the

308
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,480
connection between what you
write on the paper and what's

309
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,320
going, what an experience it's
going to be on stage, right?

310
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,760
It's like writing a recipe for a
cake without you just write it

311
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,640
and you make it.
You say, Oh my God, this is

312
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,760
awful.
But I learned a ton from doing

313
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,560
that constantly.
I mean, on the page, I would

314
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,320
write long monologues, for
example.

315
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,280
I thought, this is so powerful.
This is, you know, and the

316
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,800
minute you get it on stage or
you the actor's just reading it,

317
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,120
you say, Oh my God.
Forward through.

318
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,440
This please stop talking.
Stop talking.

319
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,440
You know, So during rehearsal, I
learned to cut a lot.

320
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,280
I learned, for example, that
storytelling on stage, it's it's

321
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,200
the play is nothing like a novel
or a short story.

322
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,480
It's more like a dance or a
fight or a sword fight,

323
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,200
something.
It's got to keep moving and

324
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,960
leaping ahead.
You can't put it down and come

325
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,360
back.
You can't take a break in the

326
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,440
middle.
You can't Daydream a little bit,

327
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,120
you know?
So I learned that very quickly,

328
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,040
right?
And I don't think anyone could

329
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,520
have told me that.
They certainly couldn't have

330
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:07,319
made me feel as bad as listening
to a long monologue made me feel

331
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:09,160
you.
Just for me.

332
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:10,640
You just need to learn by doing
it.

333
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,920
So I learned what a character
was by by trying to write them.

334
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,920
I learned what a play is or
what, and it's also it's my

335
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,920
rules there.
There are things that are true

336
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,040
for everybody, I guess.
But I think if you're an an

337
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,120
artist, I think each of us is
unique is and, and the

338
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:33,840
uniqueness, the weirdness of us
of each person is the best thing

339
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,280
about their art, right?
So you can learn a lot of

340
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,840
traditional things, but that
weird the thing that works for

341
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,840
you and nobody else.
So the thing that you need to do

342
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,160
that no one else would need to
do is the best thing about your

343
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,360
work.
So that's something you just

344
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:53,120
have to try.
You have to have your hunches

345
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,040
and your impulses and say this
is how I want to do it and find

346
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:57,680
out maybe you're right or you're
wrong.

347
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,520
Right, right, right, right.
That's really cool.

348
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,480
That's really cool.
And then how and then how did

349
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,880
you start blending the concept
of performing, I guess

350
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,520
playwriting with musicals?
And yeah.

351
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,840
And I guess one thing I've
personally and anecdotally, but

352
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,800
personally notice is that I
also, I, I too have a very hard

353
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,800
time.
I when I write, sometimes I'm

354
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,080
capturing an idea and then when
I say that idea out loud, I'm

355
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:22,200
like, that's not what I meant to
say.

356
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:23,600
Like that's not what I'm trying
to do.

357
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,280
And I'm sure what your reaction,
you relate, but like, I, you

358
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,400
know, so I, I, I always tell my
students, actually my high

359
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,480
school students, I teach them
English and I and I try and I,

360
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,880
and they're like, how do I know
if my paper is ready to, you

361
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,720
know, hand in?
I'm like, did you read it out

362
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,720
loud?
And they're like, no.

363
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,680
And I said read out loud.
Like why?

364
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,080
Like, because you're going to
catch 1000 things that, that

365
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,800
look like they make sense on
paper, that don't make sense in

366
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,560
your head.
You know that's.

367
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,480
A great idea.
I wish my teacher had told me

368
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,120
that.
Yeah, yeah.

369
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:54,480
I wish my teacher told me a lot
of things too.

370
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,960
But, you know, that's, I think
that's what living, that's what

371
00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:59,240
living is for.
Yeah.

372
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:00,560
So what's the difference
between?

373
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,080
So how'd you integrate lyric
writing and music into into

374
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:09,680
playwriting?
Well, again, trial and error

375
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,080
with Rent was my first real
musical, I guess.

376
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,960
Yeah, so I'd seen a bunch, but I
also knew I wanted to do it a

377
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,280
little differently.
I wanted it to be a little

378
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,920
rough, to be very rough.
And I put in the the swear words

379
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,000
and things like that.
I just thought for these

380
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,360
characters, this is how they
would would go.

381
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,080
And it took me.
The first draft I wrote was

382
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,680
really terrible.
But then I and Jonathan told me

383
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,680
that and then I did another
draft that was more because I

384
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,880
think the first I was trying to
write it like what I imagined

385
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,640
people would want me to write.
The second one I said, OK, I

386
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,440
give up.
This is what I have to do.

387
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,320
And so I just had those two
characters sitting there in the

388
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,880
cold, just kind of swearing with
kind of a punk rock rhythm, da

389
00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,960
da da, you know, And that became
the song Rent.

390
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,120
And I wrote them the way I
basically the way I write

391
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:11,440
dialogue, except with the rhythm
heightened in a in on the stage.

392
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,560
You can heighten rhythm to an
extent and the lyrics, I guess,

393
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,320
but you want to be careful it
doesn't get sing songy or two.

394
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,800
You don't want to rhyme unless
there's a real reason for it.

395
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,760
You prefer not to rhyme.
What?

396
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,560
Sorry.
You prefer not to rhyme if you

397
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:26,680
can.
That's right.

398
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,000
Nothing should be more
interesting than it needs to be

399
00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:35,760
or it's a distraction.
Yeah, I learned that from my

400
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,880
playwriting, that if if
characters language.

401
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,520
Because on the pet you read a
lot of Shakespeare and Beckett

402
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,040
and all these players, these
artists who are great with with

403
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:44,400
rhythm and the sound of
language.

404
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,280
But if you go too far with that,
it becomes a distraction.

405
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,840
And it you're just aware that
the playwright is.

406
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,120
Yeah, I.
Have.

407
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,120
I have that issue with, with
some of my students who I'm

408
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:57,160
trying to show them a song or
I'm trying to show them, you

409
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,120
know, lyrics to particular song
and try to examine the depth of

410
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:02,000
it.
And they get carried away with,

411
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:05,320
you know, different aspects of
the song that kind of, you know,

412
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,120
grabs at, you know, I guess a
little bit more of a superficial

413
00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:11,440
level of their attention that
kind of pulls away from their

414
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,280
from, from their ability to pay
attention to what I'm really

415
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,600
trying to show them, which would
be the lyrics, you know, I

416
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,000
guess.
If there's one thing, there's

417
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,000
that one germ inside any work of
art, I think that you've got to

418
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,000
be true to and you got to get a
sense of, even if you can't put

419
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,600
words to it, what sense of what
that thing is and follow that.

420
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,320
If you start making, you know,
putting bells and whistles or,

421
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,680
you know, cutes cuteness on it,
it's it's really annoying and it

422
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,440
and it art really has to be pure
or it doesn't work.

423
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,280
If if you you can only push even
with with TVI found this out

424
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,920
because you know, you have
commercial considerations or

425
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,400
things that editors will come in
and tell you to do something.

426
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,080
And you have to be very careful
with that because especially if

427
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,280
you're doing something new in
bold like a Bruce Springsteen

428
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,680
song or a Joni Mitchell song,
it's got to be just right.

429
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,240
You can't put anything extra.
They're perfect, you know?

430
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,280
Anyway, so that's I learned
writing a musical by having by

431
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,040
trying and having Jonathan
Larson still working at you

432
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:13,000
guys.
So how'd you go?

433
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,800
How'd you go up with the idea?
How'd you go up with the

434
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,160
concept?
Well, when I was new in New

435
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,840
York, I lived in Hell's Kitchen,
which was then much more like

436
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,080
the name implies, in my little
crowded building.

437
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,280
There were drugs all over the
place and, and it was cramped

438
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,840
and it was cold.
But I lived nine blocks from the

439
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,840
Metropolitan Opera.
It's where you're right near the

440
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,000
Lincoln Center.
So I used to go up and that's

441
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,560
that's where I learned to like
opera, just because it was drama

442
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,840
with a big, gorgeous stage, big
sets, big costumes, gorgeous

443
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,720
music.
And and if you got standing

444
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,400
room, it was cheap.
I think it might have been $8,

445
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,160
something like that to stand in
at the Metropolitan Opera all

446
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,520
the way in the back.
And they were long and I had

447
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,920
time.
I didn't want to be in my

448
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,320
apartment.
It was too small and I didn't

449
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,600
have any privacy.
So and, and La Boheme in

450
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,120
particular I fell in love with
because it's about young artists

451
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,480
who are really poor, you know,
who are struggling.

452
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,320
They're burning their own work
to, to keep the fire going.

453
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:21,760
But they are that they fall in
love.

454
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,720
They have great friends, great
friends and great love, romance,

455
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:32,360
intense romances.
So I, I related to that and only

456
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:36,240
when I was walking home one time
through the cold on my way to my

457
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:41,960
Hell's Kitchen apt, I thought,
wow, my boem, my, my artist

458
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,960
world is very different.
It's sharper and it's, it's like

459
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,760
broken glass compared to the
smoothness of the, the

460
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,640
Zeffirelli sets and the luscious
Puccini music.

461
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,720
There's nothing luscious about
New York in the mid 80s if you

462
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,440
live in Hell's Kitchen.
So that's when I got the idea to

463
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,120
do something.
And I don't write music I love,

464
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,680
you know, I can play it, I dance
to it.

465
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,520
But so I went to Playwrights
Horizons, a theater that I

466
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,280
worked at.
I mean, that was doing readings

467
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,720
of my work and and Ira Weitzman
there, their musical theater guy

468
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,560
recommended me to two composers,
one of whom was John Larson.

469
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,680
So that's where we.
Hooked up.

470
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:23,520
We hooked up through that.
Right.

471
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,960
Wow, amazing.
I love the way that you and it's

472
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,560
funny that you described it as
gritty and a little bit more

473
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:38,800
rough around the edges, but
because a it is, but it's so

474
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,640
endearing.
It's in such an authentic, not

475
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,240
kind of try way, you know, not
trying to, it's not, it's not

476
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,320
imposing, you know, the, the,
the, the lyrics and the

477
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,720
characters and, and the whole
storyline.

478
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:57,000
It is done in such a, it feels
so subtle and it feels so

479
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,600
natural and organic.
It's just like you're kind of

480
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,960
peeping into these people, like
the way these people organically

481
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,320
live.
And there's no kind of sense of

482
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,120
showmanship nearly as much as
just a bunch of people having

483
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:10,640
fun together and, you know, kind
of sharing and expressing life

484
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,040
together.
I think that's what makes it so

485
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,480
relatable.
And I think that's what makes it

486
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:21,040
so much fun to so many people
because I think there's, I think

487
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,040
we, I think we almost, I think
there's a certain expectation of

488
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,160
like a certain properness, you
know, to musicals.

489
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,000
And there's, and there's such a
strong tradition and it's a rich

490
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,960
one and it's a beautiful one and
it's a really deep one.

491
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:37,000
But like, this was like an
individual's, you know, this is

492
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,960
like a unique, an individual's
expression of what a musical is.

493
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,840
And I think that's really what
caught what caused so many

494
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,000
people's imagination and what
caught fire to so many people.

495
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,280
Yeah, Jonathan and I worked
together on it for a year or

496
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,400
two.
We couldn't.

497
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,960
Nobody was biting, nobody was
interested in doing.

498
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,280
We wrote 3 songs together in a
in a draft of a script.

499
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,200
So we decided to go our separate
ways.

500
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,240
We put it aside and he asked if
he could go ahead on his own.

501
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,960
So he gets the credit for this
wonderful thing that it became.

502
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,520
Aside from my 3 songs, I'm
credited with original concept

503
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,320
and additional lyrics.
OK, my 3 songs are still in

504
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:17,280
there.
Which ones?

505
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,320
Rent Santa Fe and I should tell
you the love duet.

506
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,360
Oh nice.
Love those.

507
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,000
Nice, that's.
Great.

508
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,440
It did catch fire.
He kept Jonathan stuck with it

509
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,320
and and made it really great and
expressed his heart through it

510
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,360
and and it did catch fire.
It I, I think you're right that

511
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:43,320
it's it felt personal.
It felt humble, open hearted and

512
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,680
people could relate to it, to
the characters.

513
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:52,640
There and sincere for sure.
And, and I think that even I

514
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,120
think that it kind of, I would
almost hope that it would almost

515
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:59,560
be inspirational to kind of
people today in a weird way,

516
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,880
because despite such bleak
circumstances that the

517
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,400
characters are living through.
And like you said, New York in

518
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,520
the 80s is no picnic, you know,
but there's still a romance and

519
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,000
a magic of participation and
community that, that, that, that

520
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,880
the place had.
And I think anyone that lives in

521
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,000
New York would tell you that
for, you know, for many years,

522
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,240
that's what made it so
wonderful.

523
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,640
And I actually think it's
probably what we're missing in

524
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,400
today's world, because today's
world almost feels like there's

525
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,560
a lot of, there's not a lot of
economic comfort for a lot of,

526
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,960
for many, many young people,
many, many middle-aged people,

527
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,560
you know, many people in
general.

528
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,840
There's a lot, there's a lot of
economic insecurity and there's

529
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,120
not really, I don't think people
really, and also people are

530
00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:49,120
isolated in a very intense kind
of way, you know, and that's for

531
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:51,360
a number of reasons.
And you know, and we can talk

532
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:55,520
about that, but I actually think
that if people looked at that

533
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,480
and said, is this what my life
could be like?

534
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,960
Look at this joy, look at this
kind of fun and authenticity and

535
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,480
and and real and real happiness
that some people are sharing and

536
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,840
love and and meaning that there
even though things are hard,

537
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,080
community is what is a community
is what people are living for.

538
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,520
I think that that would be that
should be so inspirational to

539
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,440
people today.
Yeah, people still enjoy the

540
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,680
show.
Yeah, thank God.

541
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,360
Yeah, because we keep getting
checks and.

542
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,680
There you go.
There you go.

543
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,800
Yeah, I, I remember I was, I
think I mentioned in my e-mail

544
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,760
to you when I introduced myself,
but I was forced to go see it in

545
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,600
Community College.
I was in Rockland Community

546
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,240
College upstate and and my and I
took a class and the professor

547
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,600
made us go and I was like, what
is this?

548
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,600
I don't know.
And like I read the description.

549
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,640
I'm like, I don't know, I went
there and I'm not exaggerating.

550
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,800
A minute, 90 seconds in, I was
completely hooked.

551
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,800
And I was like, I don't know
what this is, but I'm a part of

552
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,480
it.
I love this.

553
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:56,680
This is great.
So thank you.

554
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,080
Great to hear from.
Thank you.

555
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,360
Of course, of course.
So yes, let's talk about your

556
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:04,920
man.
Do you want to talk about your

557
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,120
kids programming first or TV
writing or what do you want to

558
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:09,240
go?
What do you want to go from?

559
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,720
Here anything involving me is
fine.

560
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,120
OK, great.
Or we can talk about you, too.

561
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:17,840
TV writing.
OK.

562
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,680
Well, I did it.
I began it to make money because

563
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,080
I was, I'd gotten engaged to my
sweetheart who lived in Boston.

564
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,280
I was in New York.
She was going to come live with

565
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,920
me in New York.
And I wanted to, I wanted to

566
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,360
make it clear that I could pay
my end of things, that we were

567
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,680
going to raise a family.
And I was serious about this.

568
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,720
Sure.
And I've been living.

569
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,800
How old are you at this point?
About 30.

570
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,080
Cool.
Sounds really young to me now.

571
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,120
Yeah.
Then I felt old.

572
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:50,840
I am too old to be having
roommates and to be not knowing

573
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,400
where my next check is coming
from.

574
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,280
And so I wanted to, I wanted to
have the comforts of like ATVA

575
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:01,360
big TV, you know, a big screen
TV and AVCR stereo.

576
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,760
And and I also just wanted to
have some stability.

577
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,520
So I got into and I found
writing for television.

578
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,920
If I find in general, I tell
artists, if you can use your

579
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,760
skill, your craft to make money,
you'll make money much more

580
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,160
quickly than often than bussing
tables or I was doing paralegal

581
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,320
work at night.
So I, I just applied to

582
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,440
everything.
I watched all of the channels

583
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,680
that were on TV and I looked is
there anything that has that I

584
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,280
would be interested in?
If I if there was a show I

585
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,480
thought I could write for, I
would wait till the closing

586
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,080
credits, see who produced it and
figure out how to approach them

587
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,840
and tell them how much I love
their show.

588
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,080
Nice SO.
Mostly you get no response, but

589
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:50,240
occasionally people would bite
and I had good writing samples.

590
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,880
You had to have a sample.
Something funny and short was

591
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,160
usually for whatever show
involves comedy, you have to

592
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,040
make sure you have like a good
three page thing.

593
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:00,480
Someone you can read and go
haha.

594
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,000
Let's check out more of this
guy.

595
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,160
Did you, did you have one go to
sale, you have one go to Joke or

596
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,240
do you have a couple that you'd
work on based on whoever you're

597
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,120
applying to, no.
Sketches, like comic, like

598
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,520
little Playlit, you know, 3
pages or 4 pages.

599
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,160
I don't.
I'm not very good at writing

600
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,800
jokes.
Others are, and that's a great

601
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,840
thing to have.
You can have a page of 10 jokes

602
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,200
that can get you a lot of work,
but I had my my I had like a

603
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,440
four rotation of four or five
different sketches.

604
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:31,000
I would use Gotcha kids TVI had
a Grover sketch I'd written and

605
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,440
for grown-ups TV other more
adult with stuff with sex in it.

606
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,000
But and I I would get some work
through that.

607
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,680
And I found that it wasn't
always, I wasn't always good at

608
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,160
what I thought I'd be good at.
For example, I thought that a

609
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,040
Comedy Central would would go
well for me, but it didn't

610
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,840
because like grown up wit wasn't
really my joke.

611
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,840
As I say, joke writing wasn't my
thing, but children's TV tended

612
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,960
to be good collaborations.
I tended to be good fit, which

613
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:03,800
surprised me.
But now, of course it makes

614
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,400
perfect sense because I'm goofy
and you know, I have a juvenile

615
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,960
side.
In fact, I think I don't have an

616
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:10,920
adult side.
I just have a juvenile side

617
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,080
that's good.
I got a lot of work writing for

618
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,920
kids, television, also writing
like educational books I really

619
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,360
liked.
Well, cool.

620
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:25,120
Like for kids educational books.
Yeah, like or OK, young through

621
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,880
6th grade, that sort of thing.
Like writing for Scott Forsman.

622
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:35,080
I did a book about the star
gravity and the stars astronomy

623
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,520
DNA.
Cool.

624
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,200
I find that it was fun.
If there's something that you

625
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,440
you understand but you're not a
scholar at, it's really fun to

626
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,920
teach it, to go to it and say,
wait a minute, here's what's

627
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,360
cool about the way the planets
were formed.

628
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,720
Here's what's cool about DNA.
And to talk and to talk kids

629
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,640
slowly through each step and
have it be funny the whole time.

630
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,320
That's the assignment, you know,
So that was a good gig.

631
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,800
And also a lot of children's
television and some quirky

632
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,360
cartoons like Beavis and Butt
Head.

633
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,480
Yes.
Even my wife, when that first

634
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,520
when that show first came out on
TV, we loved it because it

635
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,520
wasn't like anything else.
It was just so weird and and

636
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,680
true it that's what it's like to
be a 9 or 10 or 12 year old boy

637
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:21,840
13.
I guess they are.

638
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,160
And so when I got the call to
write for that, I was just

639
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:28,200
thrilled.
I.

640
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,800
I don't understand how that
works in terms of hiring new

641
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,440
writers once a show has already
started because isn't there a

642
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,200
particular pace and tone and
kind of, you know, like, I can

643
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:40,680
imagine it's really difficult to
do, no.

644
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,000
Yeah, I agree.
It's hard to to.

645
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,640
You're sort of learning to write
in somebody else's handwriting a

646
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,000
little bit.
Yes, right.

647
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,480
Which is tricky, but usually if
they're hiring new writers,

648
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,520
they're open to a little bit of,
they expect you to bring

649
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,760
something new to it within their
rules.

650
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,880
And again, it's hard to
communicate explicitly.

651
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,240
I mean, they'll always have a
list of rules, what they are and

652
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,440
clues to give you.
But you have to sort of feel it.

653
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,199
Again, it's like the
improvisatory thing.

654
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,560
You just sort of get the rhythm
of this show.

655
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,080
You get the personalities and
you love it.

656
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,600
And so you can get into it and
take it and make it, you know,

657
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,719
find the intersection between
you and it, right?

658
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,679
What it is and what you are,
right?

659
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,960
That's useful.
So fun.

660
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:25,960
So cool.
So take me through this only

661
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,920
because I'm, I'm particularly
enamoured by this because I

662
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,840
lived on the Upper West Side for
a little bit and spent a bunch

663
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:37,760
of time there in my early 20s as
a new single post college guy.

664
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,239
And one of my dreams, daydreams
how to walk by the ABC building

665
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,000
and just imagine walking in and
going to my writing job or going

666
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,760
to a television job there.
So can you paint to me the

667
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,199
picture of what it's like, what
a what a day of writing there,

668
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,760
you know, for a television
company or you know, for a

669
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,320
studio at the time was like?
Sure.

670
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,040
Well, I wrote freelance OK, so I
didn't always I would go in for

671
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,520
a meeting, OK, to the MTV
building or the.

672
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,480
The PBS, you go when you're
nervous.

673
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,480
Are you, are you dressed up?
Are you, are you, are you like,

674
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,080
who are you meeting with?
What's it like?

675
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,440
Nervous.
Yes, nervous because I was used

676
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,520
to being home alone and writing.
And then you come in and you

677
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,120
don't know what they're going to
say about your work.

678
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,280
There are going to be other
writers there tossing out ideas.

679
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,000
That whole thing was a was a
scary party for me.

680
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,280
But I did.
I was a head writer of the show

681
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,400
called The Wonder Pets much
later in my career.

682
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,680
And that was the only time, I
guess, when I went in every day,

683
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:36,160
all day, and I sat in an office
and I wrote and I edited other

684
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,840
people's writing and I went to
meetings.

685
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,000
And it looks from getting used
to.

686
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,120
See, you'd sit in and you have
scripts in your desk and you

687
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,080
would either start working,
continue them or edit them or

688
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,440
whatever.
And then a couple of times a day

689
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,480
you'd meet with other writers
who are coming up with

690
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,600
simultaneous ideas for the same
episode or for the next

691
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:56,640
episodes.
How did that work?

692
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,240
Well, it was mostly again, I was
the only in house writer.

693
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,400
The main thing was to dealing
with the show creator who was

694
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:09,480
there executive producer and he
knew exactly what he wanted.

695
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,960
So it's like I was the head
writer, but writing he was my

696
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,160
head.
So that was that was a source of

697
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,160
some terror.
Did you guys?

698
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:23,920
Yeah, collaboration.
Yeah, collaboration is hard for

699
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,760
me, but but when you get it,
it's a thrill.

700
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,040
And I think I got pretty.
I could often get what he

701
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,760
wanted, and that made me feel
great.

702
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,240
There was a lot of that, but I
also just like being around

703
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:36,520
other people.
There were all the animators and

704
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,800
the artists.
I go with Pike.

705
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,720
They were all creative and
young, yeah, and and fun to be

706
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:46,640
with.
So I liked being part of a team

707
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:47,360
that was.
Great.

708
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,120
Yeah, Yeah.
What's is there a difference

709
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,480
when you're writing for
animation as opposed to again,

710
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,320
for, you know, for the screen or
for actors?

711
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:01,080
Because I showed my class again
and this is how I already know

712
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,560
that time is passing a little
too fast for my comfort.

713
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,600
But they don't even they really
don't not familiar who with

714
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,120
Robin Williams and Aladdin, you
know, and I'm showing them the

715
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,480
outtakes of, you know, of the,
of the different concepts that

716
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,040
that that Disney had for, for,
you know, his, for his for

717
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,160
Genie.
And I'm expecting it to, I'm

718
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,120
expecting a similar reaction to
what I had when I saw it.

719
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,200
And they're kind of just met
with a blank stare, which is

720
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,000
crazy.
I know I have to expose them to

721
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:34,080
some more culture, but I'm sure
that writing is like animation

722
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,760
gives you so much more freedom
to express a point that words

723
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,840
don't necessarily have to carry
for you.

724
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:43,840
And if you can often let, and
I'm sure this is almost similar

725
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,880
to playwriting, if you can let
body language do the talking

726
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,280
instead of your mouth, a lot of
times that's preferable, right?

727
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,920
Yeah, yeah, cartoons are fun to
write for, I think.

728
00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:57,680
Animation I wrote for this show
called Courage the Cowardly Dog.

729
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:58,520
That was for like.
Middle.

730
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,120
I remember it.
That was a Cartoon Network,

731
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,880
right?
Yeah, Cartoon Network.

732
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,600
Yeah, yeah.
I mean every cartoon, all

733
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,200
animation, the rules are
different for what you can do.

734
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,200
But Courage the Cowardly Dog was
very stretchy and very

735
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,560
imaginative and bold, unlike
Beavis and Butt Head, which is

736
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,480
much more like a play where the
characters don't stretch, but

737
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,160
they can.
I love writing for for Dilworth

738
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,000
for that show.
John Dilworth was the creator

739
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,680
and you put in the stage
directions, very expressive

740
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:35,560
stuffs, you know, his his head
expands, his tongue goes out

741
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,360
around the world, that sort.
Of thing, but that's written in

742
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:38,640
it.
Right.

743
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:41,800
It's written into the script.
You write it into the script,

744
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,120
cool, describe it and of course
the then the animators make it

745
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,200
great.
But you have to put it in there.

746
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:49,640
That's that's how you tell the
story.

747
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,000
Anything is the script has to
have everything that tells the

748
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,480
story.
That's needed to express the

749
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,880
drama, the personality, the
meaning of it.

750
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,000
So I forget what I was going to
say.

751
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,120
Animation is different with
everybody.

752
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,000
I was doing it with younger
kids, though.

753
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,400
You have to have that.
You want them to see, to speak

754
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,960
and you want it.
Anything that's important to be

755
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,320
in the dialogue and in the stage
directions so that they're

756
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,640
seeing it and seeing and
hearing, right?

757
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,960
Because they haven't.
Language is fairly new to them,

758
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:27,480
so you want to make sure that
what they see on the screen is

759
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:32,560
described by words and what they
say with words is is done is

760
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,160
acted out for them.
And how cognizant is the, is the

761
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,600
creator or the studio's of this
concept or are they, are you,

762
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,160
were you cognizant of this to
begin with?

763
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,920
And like how did how like cuz
that sounds like something yeah,

764
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,040
people, people tell you.
As I would work, they say no,

765
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,120
no, no, you can't just write
that they have.

766
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,160
We have to see it and hear it at
the same time.

767
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,600
I see.
Cool.

768
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,200
And then I imagine with the kids
stories, you have to figure out

769
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,560
a way and there's a whole
another level of intelligence.

770
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,320
And the way, you know, is when
you when you have a really,

771
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,440
really smart person and they can
explain really, really

772
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,160
complicated ideas to anyone.
That's how you know how smart

773
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,560
they are, you know, and I think
so, yeah, totally.

774
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,000
It's.
A skill Einstein was pretty

775
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,080
good, I think, at explaining his
ideas, even relativity, very

776
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,800
simply and clearly.
He writes beautifully.

777
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,000
I think not all scientists can
do it, which is good for writers

778
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,400
like me who wanted to help them.
But with children's television,

779
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:34,000
I find that the important thing
is to express exactly what you

780
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,400
would for adults, except in
their language.

781
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,040
In other words, don't dumb down.
I mean, friendship is.

782
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,760
It's all still about love and
friendship and fear and tension.

783
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,480
It's hard.
It life is hard for whatever age

784
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:49,400
you are.
Yeah.

785
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:55,400
And to not dumb it down for kids
or, or to think, well, kids are,

786
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,800
you know, don't they aren't as
smart as we are.

787
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,640
So keep it simple.
It's still complex feelings, but

788
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,160
you just need to express it in a
language that they can get you.

789
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,120
Slow it down a little bit.
You watch the vocabulary.

790
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,320
Yeah.
But that's been my guiding

791
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,400
principle.
I find it, it's the best when I

792
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,600
really put my heart into it and
just think of it as though I'm

793
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,920
writing it for myself, just like
I would with a play.

794
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,000
It's the most beautiful thing I
can possibly create.

795
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,400
And I'll find a language to keep
it simple.

796
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,360
In my case, I just, I'm, as I
say, I'm juvenile.

797
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,720
So I have the concerns, I think
that overlap a lot with the

798
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:33,880
concerns of a four year old,
yeah.

799
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,720
I think a lot more people do
than they care to admit, by the

800
00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:40,960
way.
Yeah, Yeah.

801
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,600
How do you how do you have that
goofy side?

802
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,560
Like, do you feel like it's
constantly like bubbling up and

803
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,600
you kind of just let it go or
like, or do you feel like it's

804
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,960
kind of like a door you can open
and close this silliness or

805
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,200
goofiness?
How do you relate to it?

806
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,920
It feels natural to me.
It doesn't feel like a door I

807
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,560
can open and close.
I mean, I write about serious

808
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,120
things most of the time, right?
You know I'm writing a a musical

809
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,120
right now about war.
OK.

810
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,680
But it's funny.
I mean, it's kind of, you know,

811
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,920
it's, you see that there's
something terrifying happen, but

812
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,600
you look at the people, there's
something funny about it.

813
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:14,640
It's just my way of looking at
things.

814
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,200
I guess at at best, my heart is
in it.

815
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,360
But at the same time, I'm
stepping back and looking down

816
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:25,040
at it and think, really, yeah,
natural way to be for me.

817
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,560
I don't always wish I were that
way, but I make use of it.

818
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,120
It's got to be a great balance.
And I think it's, do you think

819
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,320
it's a coping mechanism?
Because that's, I feel like to

820
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,640
find the goofiness in something,
it's kind of protecting yourself

821
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,480
for distancing yourself from,
you know, taking something too

822
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:45,920
seriously or making it too
painful.

823
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:53,200
I know what you're saying to me,
it's not a coping mechanism.

824
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:58,240
It's natural.
It's, it's just my truth.

825
00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:00,920
I mean, this is how it feels
when I'm in pain, right?

826
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,880
I've had when I, I was visiting
my friend Connie in California

827
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:10,320
one time and I got terrible,
terribly sick on something I ate

828
00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:15,160
and I had awful, I mean, I was
terrible cramps and diarrhea and

829
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,000
vomiting and everything.
And she laughed at me.

830
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:19,680
She's it's just, you're so
funny.

831
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,200
You look so serious.
The way it's like whatever my

832
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,160
face was or you saw your rhythm
just changed.

833
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,080
So violent, so extremely.
She was laughing.

834
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,360
That's sort of me.
I mean, I found that with my

835
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,480
first play the, you know, it was
again about broken heart in the

836
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,280
night when my parents were
divorced and the way this hatred

837
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,120
between men and women, something
about the moments and there were

838
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,760
few that it worked.
People laughed.

839
00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:47,760
It's kind of a laugh of
recognition.

840
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:49,480
Yeah.
It wasn't like, because I was

841
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,040
trying to I I know you can make
jokes when you're trying to

842
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,120
avoid getting serious about
things, and I've done that when

843
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,760
I nurse at a party or something.
But it's really not that with

844
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,520
the art or with the cartoons for
me.

845
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,880
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
definitely that's.

846
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,880
How I experience pain?
The nuance for sure, for sure,

847
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:11,400
for sure, because one is kind of
a developed form that kind of

848
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,040
serves to that you've kind of
grown to protect yourself.

849
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:15,520
The other one is just kind of
the way that you are.

850
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,280
It's just true.
It's just your perception in the

851
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,920
way that you, you know, process
reality.

852
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,880
Yeah.
That's really interesting.

853
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:24,520
That's really cool.
I forgot I was.

854
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,680
I was gonna comment on something
that you said.

855
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,120
Something clever, maybe?
What, were you gonna correct me?

856
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:33,840
Something stupid I said, or No?
No.

857
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:35,800
No, no, I was gonna comment.
I was gonna comment cuz I was

858
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,800
gonna, I was gonna ask you
elaborate, but now I don't, no,

859
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,560
I don't recall.
So let's talk about a couple

860
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,280
more serious things because you
mentioned that you that, you

861
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,320
know, that a lot of people are
interested in, you've started

862
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,280
talking a little bit about, you
know, anxiety and depression

863
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,440
throughout your career.
Yes, terrible problem for me,

864
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:53,960
Terrible problem all my life
really.

865
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,960
But it got at its worst in my
50s I guess.

866
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:04,720
Do you wanna, do you, have you
thought about it enough or

867
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:07,440
looked at it enough to kind of
be able to draw a narrative in

868
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,000
your mind as to like have a
storyline where it began or how

869
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,520
it continued or developed
throughout your life?

870
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:14,600
Or are you not sure about that
yet?

871
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:19,920
Well, yeah, there.
I don't know in the end, but the

872
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,480
two ways I have of looking at it
are one, it was just my

873
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,960
chemistry, which would make
sense because everyone in my

874
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,200
family has suffered from
depression and anxiety.

875
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,880
OK, another is to say, but then
I can make the story of well,

876
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,040
when my parents were divorced, I
was 7 and I felt it was my job

877
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,760
to keep the family happy.
No one told me that, but as the

878
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,080
oldest of three children, so
every all the things that.

879
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:44,200
The.
Trouble.

880
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,440
I thought it was all my fault
all my life, and every time

881
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,920
something failed that I was in,
I thought it was my fault.

882
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,120
If a play didn't work, it
probably was my fault.

883
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,520
I still think that, but whatever
would go wrong in the world I

884
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,040
thought was my fault, and then I
just couldn't take it anymore.

885
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,760
After a certain point.
Whatever the reason, the

886
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,240
psychological or the biological,
it's the thing I've had to deal

887
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:09,240
with.
I just got used to being nervous

888
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,320
in public, in public speaking,
and I would go to parties with a

889
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,600
sentence ready to say.
So when people asked what I was

890
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,960
doing, I wouldn't draw a blank.
I wouldn't feel like I had this

891
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,920
negative thinking, terrible
negative thinking, and my

892
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,480
impulse would say I suck, I'm
bedded, everything.

893
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,240
Even if there was something cool
that I was doing, yeah, I would

894
00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:30,600
think, oh, that's just for
children or oh, it's I rent.

895
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,200
It was just, I did a little bit,
then I quit.

896
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,160
Always I would see the worst of
it.

897
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,440
So I'd have to have a sentence
ready so that I could say

898
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,400
something that sounded good when
people would ask what I was

899
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,360
doing.
It's a terrible way to live.

900
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,480
Terrible.
And then depression would come

901
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,600
and go sort.
I was sort of aware of it.

902
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,600
I remember in college one time,
I noticed that if I don't get

903
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,160
out of bed, there's this thing
that's going to happen to me, so

904
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:52,280
I better get out of bed in a
hurry.

905
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,160
Really.
Ghost that was pursuing me, What

906
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,040
is that thing I have to get out
of bed to avoid?

907
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,160
And then it caught up with me in
drama school and I couldn't get

908
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,720
out of bed.
And it came back, of course,

909
00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:07,440
much, much worse.
In my late 50s, I had a long

910
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,400
depression of I guess it was six
months of being almost

911
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,800
paralyzed.
Oh man, it was so awful.

912
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,920
But I was not funny.
I can imagine you think you're

913
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,360
funny to the observer, probably.
Yeah, Yeah.

914
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,520
You know, if I start telling my
problems, if I would tell

915
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,720
somebody something, I just as a
nervous person, I'm funny.

916
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:29,880
So, you know, people would laugh
at me.

917
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,200
I'd go to my place.
I was so nervous, I had to hide.

918
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,920
I would hide in back and people
would think this is a comical,

919
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,960
cute thing, but it was not fun.
It just sucked.

920
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,080
Yeah.
Feeling my stomach tight all the

921
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:45,120
time I had, I had panic attacks,
which again, a person like me

922
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,360
with a funny face, being
panicked can be hilarious.

923
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,480
But it sucked.
I didn't want to live like that,

924
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:52,320
no.
And then so I took a combination

925
00:47:52,320 --> 00:48:02,000
of yoga and medication and
therapy and mainly just focusing

926
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,200
on that negative thinking,
changing the way my mind worked

927
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,960
by any means necessary to Get Me
Out of it.

928
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:09,840
And right now I'm the happiest
person I know.

929
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:15,120
So I'm the opposite.
You know, when you get through

930
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,040
depression, the great news about
depression is when you get

931
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,600
through it, you're stronger, I
think, because of it.

932
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,240
Then through hell.
And you know what hell is like.

933
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:25,880
And you know how to avoid it,
right.

934
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,880
And you realize how great it is
just to be able to work to, to

935
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,280
wake up in the morning and look
out the window and just feel,

936
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:32,920
Gee, things are good.
Yeah.

937
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:34,400
It's OK.
Yeah.

938
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,360
Or if it gets cold.
Hey, that's OK.

939
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,160
It's winter.
It's supposed to get cold.

940
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,680
It's not like the world is
getting dark and evil where

941
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:47,360
you're getting old and tired.
I think that a lot.

942
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:48,680
I think that second thought a
lot.

943
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,640
You get tired and old yeah, I
just, I just turned 30 last week

944
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:58,600
and Oh my gosh, yeah well, I'll
spare you my I'll spare you.

945
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:04,000
But I, I, I feel, Oh no, my
forever disconnected from youth,

946
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,640
you know, is this, is this it?
But then of course, then of

947
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,800
course I hang out with my 2 1/2
year old and my 6 month old and

948
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,360
I'm like, of course, I'm not
disconnected from you.

949
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,600
You're crazy.
This is just dumb.

950
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,920
It's something that I think that
I think it's especially if it's

951
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:23,080
something that you don't take
for granted anymore, you start

952
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,600
to appreciate it, you know, in a
whole nother level.

953
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,960
And I think that, you know, like
this, that, that kind of, and

954
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,120
that's, I think why part of
what's fun about your

955
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,120
personality is that like for a
lot of people, they don't take

956
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,440
it for granted.
The, the, the silliness and the

957
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,360
way to look at and, and, and
that kind of way of looking at

958
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:40,720
things.
And so because it's not

959
00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:43,920
something that everyone has,
it's so much more endearing and

960
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,760
it almost feels intentional when
you, when you do come across it.

961
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:52,640
So it's, it's great.
Did you, was your, that second

962
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,400
bout of depression?
You say that you're familiar.

963
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,080
You had it, you had it a little
bit in college and drama school

964
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:58,800
and then it came back in your
50s.

965
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,280
Were you?
I mean, that's a 30 year gap.

966
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,160
I mean, but it was still there.
I mean, it was, it was like this

967
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,200
ghost, I could tell you.
But like when I got to New York,

968
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,680
OK, if I don't do something,
I've got all my whole life free

969
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:12,560
now I'm going to, I better do
something.

970
00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:15,120
And we're sort of always writing
a play I got and I got to get to

971
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,240
the next one or something.
The meaningless is going to hit.

972
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:18,960
I'll have nothing.
I'll be doing nothing.

973
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,760
My life will mean nothing
because everybody has a lot of

974
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,080
that, a little of that.
Meaningless.

975
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,320
The fear of meaninglessness is
what is what drove it.

976
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,680
It was a feeling of.
Yeah, of being, I guess,

977
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,200
existential nausea.
Call it what you will.

978
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,040
Yeah.
I didn't think of it as

979
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,480
depression so much as just.
I'm hiding from the truth.

980
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,840
There is nothing, you know, that
we're alone and naked, and it's

981
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,360
just nothing.
That meaning is imaginary, that

982
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,840
you have to create and cling to
this, the story of your life,

983
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:50,960
this getting somewhere, this
achieving.

984
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:56,960
You know, I couldn't enjoy
Sundays, for example, being a

985
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,320
Sunday on after a date.
You know, I don't want to relax.

986
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:01,520
I have to get right back to
work.

987
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,760
I don't want to have time to
think about the meaning of it

988
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:04,840
all.
Wow.

989
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,000
So I finally had to confront
that.

990
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,920
But yeah, it was.
It wasn't gone for 30 years.

991
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,280
It was.
It kept coming back at my own

992
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,600
wedding.
I was terrified, you know,

993
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,120
they're going to find out that
I'm a failure.

994
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,640
I don't belong with this woman.
I'm a loser.

995
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,320
Wow.
Very relatable.

996
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,600
It's very relatable.
Yeah, yeah, extremely relatable.

997
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,600
But you're doing so well.
You're a musician.

998
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:27,960
You've got these two great young
kids.

999
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,240
You're a teaching whiz.
You're good looking.

1000
00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:35,280
You're funny.
I I.

1001
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,360
Everything you're saying is
deeply, deeply relatable.

1002
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,360
And I actually, I've, I've
learned to recognize that

1003
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:52,480
sensation when I'm not creative.
So if a week or two will go by

1004
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,720
and I didn't write or I didn't
play, do a podcast or I didn't

1005
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,520
learn a new song on guitar.
And like that existential dread

1006
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,400
that you describe really, really
well, which is like, what am I

1007
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,320
even doing?
You know, like what, like what

1008
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,680
is this?
And, and then the scary thing of

1009
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:12,360
it being like, even if I do,
what is it, you know, and, and,

1010
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,880
and that was that, that's
something that I spent many

1011
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:19,360
years, a couple of psychedelic
trips, a lot of, a lot of great

1012
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,920
friendships, you know, spending
many, many hours discussing.

1013
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:28,200
And I think that at least for
myself, and I'd like to hear

1014
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,440
about maybe your, you know, what
with the way that you've kind of

1015
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,120
thought about it or worked
through it or different stages,

1016
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:34,320
I guess that you've gone
through.

1017
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:41,560
I think I had to separate from
myself the fact that I, if Ryan

1018
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,880
Hershman, am not going to be
relevant or remembered even in a

1019
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,680
generation or two.
But the impact that I have in

1020
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:52,680
the world absolutely will exist.
And like the things that I do,

1021
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,200
all this, all the snowballs that
I just, you know, roll down the

1022
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,200
hill that keep on packing up and
keep on getting bigger and

1023
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,520
bigger and bigger that I don't
even know where it's going to

1024
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:01,720
end up or where it's going to
go.

1025
00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:05,240
But I just have to have but, but
I have faith and hope in that my

1026
00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:09,840
actions actually lead to that,
that whether anyone remembers it

1027
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:11,480
down the line or not is
irrelevant.

1028
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,480
The fact the world's actually a
better place for my family, for

1029
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:19,320
my kids, from, you know, for the
future, for humanity is where

1030
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,880
I've been looking like.
That's that's kind of where I've

1031
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,760
settled for the moment.
I'm curious about what you how

1032
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:27,080
you answered those kind of
questions.

1033
00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:32,000
Well, you've done very well.
I mean, you've solved it at a

1034
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:33,960
young age.
You have a really good answer.

1035
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:36,160
I admire that.
I have to.

1036
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:37,440
Feel it.
We have to, you know, it's one

1037
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,560
thing to say, to feel it.
Believing it, having something

1038
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:47,120
to remind yourself.
Wait a minute, how have I

1039
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,000
answered it?
Now it's much easier for me.

1040
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:51,600
It's been much easier when I'm
older.

1041
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,400
I don't know why.
I just, I guess I feel like

1042
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,280
although I'm still working
really hard to create new stuff,

1043
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,920
I feel like I've done stuff so I
don't need to.

1044
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,400
It's not even about proving
myself to other people.

1045
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:08,680
It's about just I don't need to.
I mean, when you're 30, it's

1046
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,800
probably good that you feel this
compulsion to achieve because

1047
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,920
you, you know, it shouldn't be
unpleasant, but there's a lot

1048
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:17,040
ahead of you that you're going
to do.

1049
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:18,760
And that's great.
And it'll take some energy.

1050
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,680
It will continue to take energy
and imagination and everything

1051
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:22,640
you've got.
And that's great.

1052
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,200
I think I have come to a sort of
faith about my art.

1053
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,880
You mentioned the word faith.
Yeah, I had a strange thing

1054
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:36,040
happen a few years ago where an
opera I'd worked on I developed

1055
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:40,640
with a composer in the 90s that
got nowhere.

1056
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,680
We developed it and developed it
and did it in churches and

1057
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,640
schools and stuff.
Was picked up by a theater in

1058
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,560
Sweden.
They found it on the Internet

1059
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,480
and they did a full production
of it with a 70 piece orchestra,

1060
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,320
one of the largest stages in
Europe.

1061
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,480
And this is in Malmo, Sweden.
That was revolving and a

1062
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,080
gorgeous just blew me out there
and it was just gorgeous.

1063
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:07,480
And it struck me that it's
possible that the works that you

1064
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:11,880
do now that are not appreciated.
We love that opera that if you

1065
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,480
do your very best, if you put
your heart into it and do make

1066
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,840
it exactly what you think it
should be and it doesn't get

1067
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,360
recognized for whatever reason
it might be.

1068
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:22,680
In fact, there might be 30 years
from now.

1069
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,800
That was 30 years between the
perfect production, the perfect

1070
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:28,960
recognition of it.
You can't know that.

1071
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,200
Yeah, it probably.
I don't know.

1072
00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:32,640
I don't the odds.
I don't know what the odds are

1073
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:34,480
that it will happen, but it
might.

1074
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:36,960
Jonathan Larson never knew what
rent would become.

1075
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,520
He seemed to have a feeling that
it was huge and important.

1076
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,920
So I can only say that you have
to accept that for now.

1077
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,400
The the mission is to do your
absolute best, put your heart

1078
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,480
into it.
Live for the moment with that

1079
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,960
work.
Be in it, love doing it, love

1080
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,920
making it that that experience
of knowing that you're putting

1081
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,680
something gorgeous out into the
world, putting yourself into the

1082
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,000
world has to be enough because
you can't always know what's

1083
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,200
next and then let it go and move
on to the next one.

1084
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:10,480
And then there's also the
question that I deal with.

1085
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,560
I think I would like to be
strong enough that I can accept

1086
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,800
that, even if that's not even
about that.

1087
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,160
I don't even need to change the
world with my work.

1088
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,400
That just being and going
through the day and being good

1089
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,320
to my children and being kind to
people on the street, saying

1090
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:28,160
hello to people on the street
and sharing the positive energy

1091
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,800
with the crossing guard.
Yeah, that alone.

1092
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:34,440
Changes your life, changes your
life.

1093
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,560
By the way, when did, when did
you start implementing that?

1094
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,360
Because I started doing that
like a year ago, maybe a year

1095
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,280
and a half ago.
But I just started making eye

1096
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,120
contact and saying hello to
people and just being nice to

1097
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,800
neighbors and the male people
and the people at the

1098
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,640
supermarket.
And I go to the gas station now

1099
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:55,720
and if I'm in a bad mood, I walk
out five minutes later and I'm

1100
00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:58,640
just like, I said hi to three
people and had four and had four

1101
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:01,400
positive exchanges.
I'm like, this is great, man.

1102
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,240
I don't know what's going on.
But but, but, but things are

1103
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:04,000
good.
Things are good.

1104
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,600
You know, I it's amazing.
Well, this is not fair that

1105
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:08,840
you're know all this at 30.
I was going to point out how I

1106
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,960
it took me 68 years to get to
this, but there goes my story.

1107
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:14,640
Come on.
That's great.

1108
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:16,720
That's I agree with you.
There's no way you weren't doing

1109
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,560
this stuff the whole time.
It's just a question of whether

1110
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,440
you're aware of it, you know?
I mean, you couldn't have gone

1111
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,920
through all that you went
through with people at least

1112
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,600
getting this positive reception
of good and good vibe from you

1113
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:27,440
that they want to, you know, be
around.

1114
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,080
You well I agree it is a great
just saying hello to people

1115
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:33,280
making eye contact with people
is a beautiful thing and it

1116
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,920
makes you feel great makes makes
them feel great often.

1117
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:39,400
So what are some so, So what are
some things that you hope to

1118
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:41,800
that you hope to work on now?
What is some ambitions that you

1119
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:43,600
have?
Well, I'm doing a new musical

1120
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,040
that's my main project based on
a Shakespeare play called

1121
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:49,720
Troilus and Cressida, a not very
well known war play that he

1122
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,640
wrote.
That's also a odd, really odd

1123
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:56,960
comedy that that strikes me as
about now in a lot of ways, that

1124
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:58,360
asks.
In what capacities?

1125
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:03,520
What's what's the scenarities?
Well, it's about a war that the

1126
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,880
Trojan War, it's set in the
Trojan War that no one knows why

1127
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:08,920
they're fighting it.
It was about because Helen,

1128
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:13,920
because Paris took Helen from
Greece to Troy, but no one

1129
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,920
really likes Helen and you know,
on either side they don't like

1130
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:19,000
her.
So why are, and they've been

1131
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,160
fighting for 10 years at this
point and they but they just

1132
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:24,960
can't stop.
So that the theme, the question

1133
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:28,360
of why we hurt each other and
the romance, the toilets and

1134
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,600
crested romance is very painful
to both of them, even though

1135
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:36,040
they seem to want to they they
want to love each other and yet

1136
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:40,280
they destroy each other.
So and it's about a world in

1137
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,520
which both sides talk at each
other.

1138
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,800
Language is really difficult.
Languages makes up conflict.

1139
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,240
The more they talk, the more the
the conflict grows.

1140
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:52,000
Even when they're switching
sides of the.

1141
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,320
They don't even know what
they're talking about, but they

1142
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,440
just keep fighting.
What is that?

1143
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:58,320
Yeah.
So it asks that question.

1144
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,480
Wow.
And I found this composer whose

1145
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,560
music I'm in love with, G Hey
Lee, a jazz composer who's from

1146
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:05,880
Korea but lives in Brooklyn now.
Amazing.

1147
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:07,600
We're having a good time working
on it.

1148
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:10,840
Wow, that's so exciting.
I'd love to hear updates about

1149
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,120
that.
That sounds really cool, how are

1150
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:17,400
you?
Wow, such great themes.

1151
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,120
I think so.
And so how do you modernize it?

1152
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:22,200
You're taking this story and
you're like, you know what?

1153
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:24,520
I love this story.
I love these themes.

1154
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:26,680
Here's like my playbook for
this.

1155
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,360
I'm going to go ahead and I'm
going to, I want to put my own

1156
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,440
twist on this.
Now what am I, you know, how do

1157
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:33,440
you go about that?
Well.

1158
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,400
With rent, of course, for
example, we said it now what we

1159
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,120
said it in.
It was the late 80s.

1160
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,720
We said it then in that specific
time period, which was

1161
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,320
contemporary to what we were
when we were writing it.

1162
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:50,160
But with this, I thought it
should just stay as simple as

1163
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:51,560
possible.
I try.

1164
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,960
I considered, do we set it down?
Do we set it during World War

1165
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,400
One?
But that that wasn't the point.

1166
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,640
It needed to be simple and
mythical and feel huge.

1167
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,680
Yeah.
But feel like now, I mean, so I

1168
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:08,280
just, it's it's as I was writing
the script, I made it my own.

1169
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,240
So it it focuses on more women
characters.

1170
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:17,240
Yeah, a world that's Half Men
and half women and where the the

1171
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:19,440
the anger that's in
Shakespeare's play, but hidden.

1172
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,880
And there's a lot of tenderness
completely hidden in

1173
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:23,200
Shakespeare's play that I
brought out.

1174
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:29,480
OK.
That, but that's what makes it

1175
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,560
feel contemporary.
And I think people are getting

1176
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:35,800
that when we show it to them.
But it is a hard question.

1177
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:37,560
How do you do that?
How do you make it your own?

1178
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,520
How do you modernize it?
Yeah, yeah, because there's a

1179
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:42,200
lot that I've been thinking
about.

1180
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:45,640
I mean, I was just, I did a a
fascinating podcast last week

1181
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:50,200
with a woman that specialized in
the history, unknown history

1182
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,520
essentially, of Japanese war
crimes in World War 2.

1183
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:55,600
Wow.
I don't know anything about it.

1184
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:56,840
I didn't even know that that was
a thing.

1185
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,960
I didn't know anything, you
know, and, and, and apparently a

1186
01:00:59,960 --> 01:01:02,840
lot of information was
classified and, and there's

1187
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:04,400
only, and it was never even
digitized.

1188
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,280
And she had single handedly
almost, I think maybe a small

1189
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,840
team digitized like 1,000,000
copies or over 1,000,000 copies

1190
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:14,360
of information.
As she said, we have Civil War

1191
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:17,680
documents that are in better
kept condition because they were

1192
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,680
written on cotton paper as
opposed to World War 2 where

1193
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:22,880
production was pretty much at a
standstone in the States.

1194
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,760
And so the quality of paper was
garbage.

1195
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,680
So as soon as these papers
deteriorate, history's gone.

1196
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:31,720
You know, our awareness of that
of that was gone.

1197
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,960
But one thing that we were
talking about was so many things

1198
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:40,000
that were happening in the early
1900s are exactly rhyming with

1199
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,600
what's happening today.
And it wouldn't even take that

1200
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:44,760
much to kind of make
contemporary, you know, I mean,

1201
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:49,720
OK, trade a horse, trade a horse
and buggy for, for Aston Martin.

1202
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,640
And, you know, and trade, you
know, I mean, you don't even

1203
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:54,800
have to trade the characters,
like the main characters of the

1204
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:57,840
countries or whatever it is.
That's that's who it is, you

1205
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:03,520
know, So I think, I think that
it's more about the new, it's

1206
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:05,880
almost like cultural and like a
little bit of like nuance of

1207
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,080
like technology.
But other than that, a lot of

1208
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:10,280
this already lends itself to
just human nature, which is

1209
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,360
consistent.
Yeah, thank God human nature is

1210
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:15,160
consistent.
Yeah, you don't.

1211
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,280
You don't have to have cell
phones all the time to man.

1212
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,200
It's how you do a play.
That's my next step.

1213
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:21,360
I got to get rid of my cell
phone.

1214
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:23,640
I got to get.
I got to get one of those flip

1215
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:24,720
phones.
You know what I'm talking about.

1216
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:25,720
They don't have.
Really.

1217
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:27,800
Yeah, that's my next goal, I
thought.

1218
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,320
Your generation was quite
comfortable with all that stuff.

1219
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:36,520
We are I think that we're going
to see very quickly that we were

1220
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:42,320
a test, a lab test generation
for social media and the impact

1221
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:46,560
of constantly living in a
combination of comparison and

1222
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:48,720
consumerism world where everyone
is comparing themselves to

1223
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,960
everyone and purchasing
everything beyond any kind of,

1224
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:58,120
you know, sustainability, you
know, so, so I'd rather just

1225
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:00,320
separate myself from that off
the get go.

1226
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:03,320
And you know what everything I
got to do, I got to do, I could

1227
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,120
do on my computer.
You know, I mean, there's really

1228
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:09,120
no reason to walk around with.
I mean, if my wife used to call

1229
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:11,400
me, my kids need to call me.
Got a phone number, You want to

1230
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:13,360
send me a text SOS, I'll come
pick you up.

1231
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:16,480
And that's the end of it.
You know, that's, that's my

1232
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:18,000
ambitions.
Sounds like a good idea.

1233
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,560
Definitely, Billy.
I really appreciate the time.

1234
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:24,560
This is such a fun conversation.
This is really great and I

1235
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:28,320
really, you're thoughtful,
you're sweet, you got you tell

1236
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:32,800
an amazing story and I really
wish you tons of luck with all

1237
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,640
these next exciting phases and
hopefully you can accomplish

1238
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,480
success while treating yourself
well at the same time.

1239
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:40,920
That's the goal.
That's the goal.

1240
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:41,840
That's the goal.
Thanks.

1241
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:43,760
Brian, I've I've enjoyed this
very much.

1242
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:45,200
This is such a pleasure.
All the best.

1243
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:46,080
Take Care now.
Thank you.

1244
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:46,440
Take care.
Bye.

1245
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:46,680
Bye.