Entertainment Series 9: D.J. MacHale/ Writing Pendragon / AI & Post Capitalism / Creative Processes

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Welcome to another episode of
come together

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DJ McHale.
What a pleasure I the 13 to 15

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year to 16 year old me is
freaking out inside right now,

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and I'm very, very happy to be
talking to you.

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How are you I'm.
Happy to be here.

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I'm, I'm excellent.
It's good to meet you.

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It's good to meet you too.
So, you know, I started, I was

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doing, I was talking to a friend
of mine who I told you I just

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texted at letting him know we're
talking about, we're, we're

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recording together and we're
talking about potential guests

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and great writers that I, you
know, that we would like to talk

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to.
And we, and then I said to him,

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I was like, dude, you must have
read PED Dragon growing up.

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And he said, yeah, dude, he
goes, I actually didn't know too

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many other, everyone knew about
it, but not too many of my

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friends actually had read it.
And I was like, yeah, well, I

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loved it.
And, and I said I got to reach

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out to the author and then I did
some homework other than other

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than the book.
And I saw you had quite a

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incredible creative career in
general on screen and in

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writing.
And so, so I'm happy because

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that gave me a lot more
firepower and things to talk

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about so.
Right.

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Yeah, that's good.
Well, it's kind of fun how when

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you when you make television,
unless you're a big highfalutin

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star or whatever, most people
don't know who makes television

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shows.
They, they, it's the actors, you

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know, it's it's the it's the
whoever show and they don't know

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who the writers are and whatnot.
And it wasn't till but people do

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know who writes books because
their name is right of the book

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And people, chances are they
might not even know the title of

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the book, but they know the
author.

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And so it's, it was fun, you
know, to start a while ago, but

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it's fun where combination of
being an author and getting my

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name on books and social media.
So the people like putting two

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and two together, they're like,
whoa, wait a minute, that's the

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same guy that I watched in that
show.

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So it was, so it was really,
it's kind of fun to get, oh,

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it's the right word without
sounding egotistical, getting

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recognized or getting kudos for
having done something that back

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when I did it, no one knew with
or in front of the dark.

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No one had any idea.
So I talk about it more today

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than I did back then.
I feel a similar scenario

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happened with people like Ben
Stiller where he directed that

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awesome show Severance.
And I, you know, and someone

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told me like, hey man, you
should watch Severance.

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And I said, I'm not crazy about
Ben Stiller.

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And he's like, no, there's
nothing to do with the Ben

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Stiller that you think you know
or don't know.

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He's like, there's a whole
another side of him that, that,

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that, that comes out here.
And it's really good.

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And I have to say I was blown
away.

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So I love when people and also
who knows how long he could have

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been wanting to direct something
serious, you know, or something

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a little bit more thought
provoking and just never got the

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chance to because he was
typecast for, you know, whatever

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reason or for however long, you
know.

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Well, he's having a pretty good
career without doing that.

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So whether he was feeling like
he's missing something, I guess,

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but he was, he was doing quite
fine before that.

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So this is just adds to it.
So he's he's so good for him.

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He's he's doing fine.
Definitely, definitely so.

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So I want to hear if you don't
mind, I would love for this to

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kind of be a combination of me
kind of picking your thoughts a

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little bit.
Just in general.

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I want to hear a little bit
about your creative process and

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the way that you come up with
stories and your world building

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which seems which is really
exceptional.

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And I also would love to hear
just a little terms of narrative

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and little biographical aspect
as to what, you know, parts of

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your life you were writing or
working for television which

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came first, which was a passion
and we kind of start wherever

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you prefer.
But those are the two areas I

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would like to, you know, get to
with our time.

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Yeah, the, the one of the things
that's kind of fun for me is

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when I speak at schools, most
because of the books, not just

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the TV, because of the books.
And I have a speech, I've given

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it 8,000,000 times.
But and it's I've it's, it's

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honed down.
Believe me.

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It's I know exactly how to get,
I can give it in my sleep.

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But one of the things that I
start with that is absolutely

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true, but it also endears me to
the kids, is that I start off by

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saying I hate to write.
OK.

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And so you know who that gets
everyone's attention?

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Like, oh really?
Talk to some boring author and

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he who hates to write.
Tell me more.

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But it was that hatred of
writing that got me to become a

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writer.
And, and as odd as that sounds,

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it's because when I was in
school, when I well, throughout,

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you know, SEC first, but it's
not secondary education.

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It's, you know, K through 12,
let's say which one?

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Where were.
You in New York, Connecticut,

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which is, which is actually
suburban New York.

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I mean, it's it's, I mean, you
can see Manhattan from my town.

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So it's so I feel like a New
Yorker even though it's

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Connecticut.
But it wasn't so much that I

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hated writing, as it turns out.
It's that I just didn't have the

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discipline to do it.
I just hated having to sit down

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and not running around outside
and not watching TV or not

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playing, whatever it happened to
be.

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So it was about 8th grade that
for whatever amazing stroke of

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good luck.
Now, this is a long time ago.

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This is the dark ages.
This is like 1970.

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There's a media specialist on a
school teacher who, I'm not sure

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what he did, but he was the
media specialist and he came to

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me one day and I don't know why
he did this, but he said, DJ,

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we, we just got this thing in,
do you want to use it?

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And it was a, he called it a
portable videotape recorder.

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Now, by today's standards,
there's nothing portable about

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this thing.
I, you know, it was between the

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cables and the cameras and the
batteries and the, you know,

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it's, it's probably gas powered
for all I remember.

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But black and white reel to
reel, you know, really old

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school, horrible quality.
And he said, you want to use

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this.
And I said, no, what?

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I want to use it.
But then a couple friends of

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mine and I who had the same
mindset were like, hey, who?

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We came up with the best scam.
We said whenever we have to do a

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report on something, an essay,
whatever it is, rather than

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write a report that we hate
because we hate to write, maybe

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we can make a videotape about it
instead.

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Awesome.
So you know, today that's

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commonplace if people, they're
walking around in their pocket

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with the technology to do that.
But no one was doing it back

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then.
So we used to go to teachers and

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say, can we make this video
instead?

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And they'd all have the same
reaction.

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They have this look like I want
to be supportive, but are they

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trying to get away with
something like I don't, I don't

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know.
If so, they'd say, I guess I'm

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like, OK, thank you, goodbye.
And from from that like 8th

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grade, I guess that was from 8th
grade until 12th grade.

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There are three or four of us
that whenever a report came up,

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whether it's for our class or
somebody else's class, they'd

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say time to make another show,
time to make another video.

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And we're like, OK, And we made
comedies, We made dramas, we

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made game shows, we made
documentaries and.

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I loved.
It everything and, you know, all

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horrible, but but and and we
learned about whatever the thing

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was that we were doing it about
and the thing that that also we

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didn't.
Well, we thought we're so smart

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because we were having fun.
We were getting out of writing

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because we hated to write and
because it was so new, teachers

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had no idea how to grade these
things, so we always got A's.

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So I was like, yeah, this is
fine.

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It wasn't until I I'll jump
ahead pretty quickly.

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When I graduated high school, I,
I went, I didn't know what I

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wanted to do for life, but I
knew I should go to college.

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So I went to a college that I'm
going to be a pre law like yeah,

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right.
That's.

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I did that too, English major.
There's there's anything I

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learned at that, at that
university, it was like, I don't

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want to be doing this.
Yeah.

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So it was my girlfriend at the
time who said, you know, you

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really liked in high school
making movies.

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Why don't you go to film school?
I was like, oh, isn't that a bad

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idea?
OK, fine.

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So I replied to you in a church.
I went to NYU film school and

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there was a a real moment that I
had that I had to take a writing

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class because you have to take
all these film type things

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that's writing.
And I went to the professor and

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I said this is going to be ugly.
And she said why?

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And I said because I hate to
write.

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And she laughed at me and I was
like, what are you talking

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about?
She said, DJ, you come up with

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stories, right?
Oh, yeah, she says, and you like

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telling these stories, right?
Yeah, she says.

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And and you like getting
feedback from people, see how

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they like.
And if they based on the

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feedback, you either make it
funnier, scarier, change or

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whatnot.
Yeah.

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She was with Doofus.
What do you think writing is?

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And I was like, oh, you know,
just because I wasn't sitting

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typing it or writing on a piece
of paper, whatever, that didn't

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feel like that was writing.
But she said you for all the

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films you've made, you probably
did more writing than any kid

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whoever went through that high
school of yours, like, Oh my

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God, that's pretty good.
So that's when I kind of

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realized that, Oh, maybe I, I
can be a writer and, and to get

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into the film business.
And back in those days, kind of

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along the same lines of nowadays
you can make a feature film with

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your, your iPhone.
It was very expensive to be

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actually making films back then.
And so I thought I couldn't

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afford that.
I was poor.

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So it's like, if I'm going to
get into this business, it's

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going to be through writing.
So that's kind of how I got into

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being a writer and writing
screenplays and writing

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teleplays and things like that.
So that was that was really the

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the beginning of it.
That's awesome.

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That's really cool.
And what's what's so cool about

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that is I guess it answers the
question of which came first.

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And the answer is the word built
the world building.

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You know, if you're, if you're
going to be taking all the

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assignments that you're doing
and there is a creative muscle

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that is being flexed or
exercised when you're

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transmuting information or
repeating information on your

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own that a teacher wants to
hear, Especially if you're going

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to put, you know, your own spin
on it, like making it to a game

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show or a drama or a comedy.
And, and that, that's, that's

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the beauty of, of really a lot
of writing.

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And it's funny because I try to
get, I teach high school English

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and I try to get my students to
break out of the formal writing

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at the moment they're, you know,
they're used to it.

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And one thing that, and I'm, and
I would love to get your

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feedback on this, but I said
these students are, you know,

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9th through 12th grade.
They know that I know rather

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that by the time they get into
college, writing essays is going

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to be almost obsolete as far as
AI goes, as far as skills go, as

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far.
Yeah, unfortunately, yeah.

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And I try to emphasize instead
that they've got to learn how to

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articulate their thoughts and
express their own selves on

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paper, because that's the muscle
that has to be exercised.

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And so I kind of focus more on
reactions to information as

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opposed to summarizing informal
paragraphs.

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And I try to encourage poetry
and they, they look at the word

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like it's, you know, awful.
I just show them the movie Dead

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Poet Society.
I show it to my 12th graders.

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And it, it rocked that it really
shook them to their core.

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You can see that how, how, how
much of an impact it had on

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them.
But they're learning that that

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writing is that writing is
talking just, you know, I mean,

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it's pretty much the same thing.
And except you have an

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opportunity to edit and revise
what you're saying and really,

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really get to really get to have
fun with it.

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Well, well, that's, that's where
the art comes in it.

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It's putting your own spin on
it, your own point of view, your

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own take on it.
I have a debate with a friend of

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mine who is a, who's a very,
very talented artist, a painter.

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And I mean, like amazing.
I mean, he's one of those guys,

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like a criminal would want to
hire him to do a forgery of a

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painting because that, that's
how good he is.

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It it's, it's really remarkable
and that's such a skill and he's

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worked at it and whatnot.
But but it's not art.

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00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,160
It it's the art is the person
who created the original piece,

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who chose what the subject was,
what the angle was, what the

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lighting was, what the colors
are going to be.

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He is very skilled.
I couldn't do it.

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He's very skilled in recreating
it, but he's not putting his own

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voice into it.
So it doesn't become art until

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you put your own voice to it.
So with a script, with a story

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or whatever, until you your own
voice comes through and that.

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And that's I think one of the
big knocks on AI.

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It's like AI doesn't have a
soul.

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It just takes what's there and
extrapolates and whatnot.

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So that's why I hope AI will
never well, God, I can't believe

246
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,440
I'm thinking I'm an old guy.
I'm like there's AII don't know.

247
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,880
No, is it, Well, I mean,
apparently you have the

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foresight or at least have
thought about the, the, the

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notion of like, you know what,
what is what this road's going

250
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,080
to lead down and you know, it's
it's not, it's not too pretty.

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I don't, I don't think
potentially, but I think.

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00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:27,960
I just had an experience the
other day and literally just a

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couple days ago where it was on,
I think it was on Facebook.

254
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And well, I get these things
that notice that oh, my name

255
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,000
popped up in something.
And then I go to the article,

256
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,640
see what it is, usually somebody
selling something and I look at

257
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:41,800
it.
But every once in a while an

258
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:47,240
interesting article pops up.
And it was not an article, but

259
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,920
it was, it was a verbal essay,
whatever about my first

260
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Pendragon book about the
merchant of Death.

261
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,080
And it was clearly an AI voice
that was saying it.

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But but the description of the
book, it's like, wow, this is

263
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:07,720
and it wasn't just this is what
happened.

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And that's what happened.
This was going into the

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philosophy behind it by the the
essence of it.

266
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And it's like, wow, this person.
I, I don't know if I, I even

267
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,440
thought that through all the way
when I wrote it, but wow, it's,

268
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this is pretty and it kind of
dawning.

269
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It's like, wait a minute, this
was AI.

270
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This wasn't somebody who sat
down and wrote this.

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This is just someone who who did
but interpret something that

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already existed.
Yeah.

273
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,160
The AI did not come up with
something they interpreted

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something that already existed.
And you can tell, you can tell

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when something's AI written.
I could tell with my student,

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00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,640
you know, and it's not judged
that there's degrees of, you

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know, polished, you know, the AI
has relative to my students have

278
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,680
of course, but you can tell, you
can tell with a lot of articles

279
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,280
there is, there's even like some
kind of soul that's missing to

280
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,560
the writing.
It's a weird way to put it, but

281
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,960
I, I think that it's, it's if
you translate that same idea

282
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:01,520
over to music, it works really
well.

283
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,240
And that example that even you
gave earlier.

284
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,280
I'm a big Grateful Dead fan and
I've been for a couple of years

285
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,440
now, not my whole life.
I'm not, but you know, it's,

286
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:17,680
I've kind of tripped into it a
little bit and I, and they start

287
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,480
as essentially a cover band and
when they first got their first

288
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,920
record contract, they panicked
because they didn't have any

289
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:29,560
original songs to play.
They, what they excelled at was

290
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,240
playing cover songs their way
and creating this whole new

291
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,280
style of playing music.
And I find that a lot of a lot

292
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,240
of the great musicians that I,
that I've really followed

293
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,800
throughout the years and
listened to real deep tracks and

294
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,600
really, you know, listened to a
lot of their live performances

295
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,400
and stuff.
They've, they too will often

296
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,240
cover their influences.
But you can find the, you can

297
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,360
see their own spark and their
own humanity and their own

298
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,600
individual touch to a lot of it.
And it, it turns that song into

299
00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,280
their own.
I think that every single person

300
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:04,080
that does that really takes, you
know, so it and I guess that

301
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,120
would be AI is missing that part
where it's reforming it into

302
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,440
something new.
It's instead it's kind of just a

303
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,480
cold summary or soulless
summary, but it's but it's

304
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:15,480
scary.
It's really good.

305
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,520
I, I heard this phrase, I
shouldn't say what it was

306
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,400
referring to, but I'll, I'll
tell you the phrases is that

307
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,480
when you listen to a song like
that, let's say AI generated

308
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:32,440
song like that, it all seems
polished and correct for the

309
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,680
most part and thoughtful.
Thoughtful is probably not the

310
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,400
right word.
Polished, correct, technical,

311
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,080
well polished, incorrect,
incorrect factually.

312
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,920
But somewhere in the mix,
there's a dead hand.

313
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,360
It's just that makes it fall off
and it just takes away there,

314
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,560
there isn't a soul in this
thing.

315
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,280
There isn't a point of view in
this thing.

316
00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:00,360
It's just fact.
And will that change?

317
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:06,240
Will, will we get to Hal in 2001
and space and they'll take over

318
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,000
or Terminator and then suddenly
they're taking over the world?

319
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:13,000
I don't know.
It's quite possible.

320
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,359
It's really scary when machines
can start thinking for

321
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,880
themselves.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

322
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,920
Because we're getting at the
point and I've been thinking a

323
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,520
lot about this too.
And I'd love to hear if you have

324
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,160
any thoughts on this or just
any, you know, kind of playing

325
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,200
these might, you know, these,
these thought these thought

326
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,000
experiments out.
But we're not too far from Elon

327
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,920
Musk putting, you know, Grok
into a Tesla robot or a Tesla

328
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,360
humanoid robot and having it
walk around essentially for.

329
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:42,840
And I think he said the starting
price that he wanted to charge

330
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,600
was between 20 and 30 grand for
this, these Tesla robots, you

331
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,280
the cost of all labor and the
cost of really everything is

332
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:57,680
going to drop enormously.
And it almost feels like we're

333
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,080
snowballing and hurtling towards
a post capitalistic society

334
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,440
because capitalism is not going
to be necessary.

335
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,440
You're not going to need.
It's going to be almost a world

336
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,600
of meaning and relationships and
adventure relative to, as

337
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,440
opposed to a world of
maintenance for an out of

338
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:23,280
necessity.
Well, you're you're right, but

339
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:32,240
that that spells doom because
unless what people do generate

340
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:38,840
money, generate income or
generate value, then where does

341
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:43,760
value come from?
So I don't know, I mean, I, I

342
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,800
don't, I'm glad I'm closer to
the end than the beginning of my

343
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,440
life, so I won't have to worry
about it.

344
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,040
But I just read an article at
that long ago that was talking

345
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,000
about the viability of creating
a robot like you just described,

346
00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,520
like a humanoid type robot.
And I don't put anything past

347
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,280
anybody.
I believe at some point that's

348
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,200
probably going to be viable, but
it's a lot of.

349
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:12,960
Have you seen it recently?
Yeah, but but what they show are

350
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:16,880
really controlled tests and
whatnot that but apparently

351
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:24,000
mechanically even not even not
even the the software create

352
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,000
recreating the human movement
and whatnot unless they come up

353
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,560
with robots that aren't human
like which they do have too as

354
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,640
well.
Yeah, exactly.

355
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,480
To try to emulate the ergonomics
of a human being are a lot more

356
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:41,160
difficult than creating Rosie
the the the maid from the

357
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,400
Jetsons.
I don't know but that.

358
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,160
But as I said to say that won't
happen someday.

359
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,080
I I don't know but but unless I
take it in a much more

360
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:56,960
rudimentary level, it's like how
how many people no longer find

361
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,920
jobs on assembly lines.
I mean no one's.

362
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,560
Using a wrench on an assembly
line anymore that's, that's not

363
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,480
new, that's been that way for 40
years or whatever.

364
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,640
So it's like, what are people
going to do?

365
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,840
What, what, what's, what's going
to be?

366
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,200
How are they going to generate
value in what they do in order

367
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,120
to feed the machine that's going
to give them the machine?

368
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:21,000
You know, I I don't know the
answer to it.

369
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,600
So I think that I mean, what I
would imagine in just playing

370
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,520
this out, if you take away and
I, I've asked the student this

371
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:33,240
before and I think about this a
lot because I've, I grew, I've

372
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:42,040
grew up in a upper class world
and I and I, and I see people, I

373
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,560
saw people collect money for far
more than they could possibly

374
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,200
ever use it for, you know, and,
and one of the benefits that

375
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,960
obviously they get is this kind
of social currency for saying

376
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,640
that they have so much money or
indicating somehow that they

377
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,560
have a lot of money, that they
create a lot of value.

378
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:03,280
And when that becomes not as
impressive because value or

379
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,440
things that are monetary or
things that are physical are

380
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:12,160
going to be so cheap and so
easily made, then the then our

381
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,120
values for what we find
important in life are going to

382
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,240
have to shift from something
that's currency based to

383
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,440
something else.
So for example, if you're in

384
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,760
Russia or China, it's the
motherland or the, or the, you

385
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,320
know, or the, or the Chinese
party or whatever it is.

386
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,640
And if you're America, it's
capitalism.

387
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,720
But maybe the answer might be
meaning and adventure.

388
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,840
Maybe the answer is, you know,
OK, let's go to space now and

389
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:36,360
see what you see, what we could
do from here.

390
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:42,000
In other words, stop focusing on
money being the yardstick that

391
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,520
we're measuring our success in
the time that we spend our lives

392
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:50,760
with, and instead change the
emphasis to adventure or, or

393
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,120
life development or meaning and
relationships and stuff like

394
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:55,720
that.
Because at the end of the day,

395
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,920
that is what people live for.
And, you know, no matter how

396
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,240
much physical, how many, how
many stories have we heard of,

397
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,720
of wealthy people that are
depressed, suicidal, that we

398
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,920
just know that at a certain
point it, it money is security.

399
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:13,560
And money, you know, provides
happiness in the sense that you

400
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,640
feel secure and not anxious and
concerned about where your,

401
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,080
where your safety's going to
come from.

402
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,920
But beyond that it doesn't
provide anything or as much.

403
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,120
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, unless you want to pay to

404
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:34,400
go to outer space or or go out
on an adventure or whatever.

405
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:44,320
I mean, it's people have to eat
and short of going out and

406
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,040
hunting and gathering
themselves, they're going to

407
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,200
have to get someone to grow that
food for them.

408
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,120
So unless we go back to a total
what what's the term agronomy?

409
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,080
Yeah, it's society.
It's I, I I just don't see it.

410
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,960
I mean, it's it's I'd love to be
able to be make money off of

411
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:08,640
adventure, but or, or make a
make a survive off of adventure.

412
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:10,880
Exactly.
You wouldn't be making money.

413
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,160
I, I mean, I think that the
cause of things would be so

414
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,440
cheap that there'll be, it'll be
effectively free to live.

415
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,960
I mean, I, if, if you, if you
scale any kind of robotics and

416
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,640
any kind of AI and you stick
them together and you scale

417
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,240
that, think about how quick San
Francisco can change.

418
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,720
And then think about how quickly
that can just ripple out.

419
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,760
Think about how quickly and
we've seen the impacts of, you

420
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,960
know, it might take 15 years, it
might take 20 years, it might

421
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,040
take 50 years, but we've seen
that we've seen the standard of

422
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,120
living is higher now, especially
in America than we ever than

423
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:48,600
we've ever been.
I saw a really interesting

424
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,520
article that talks about a
country that primarily that

425
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:58,720
their primary resource that they
create are services is a wealthy

426
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,360
country and countries whose
primary services are material

427
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:07,280
goods is a developing country.
And we've been, you know, and,

428
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,200
and we've been providing, if you
think about what we provide,

429
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,760
it's tech companies, it's
finance, it's banking, it's AI,

430
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,400
it's software.
It's a lot of this, it's a lot

431
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,800
of the, it's Hollywood, It's,
it's, it's, it's great

432
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,280
entertainment.
A lot of these aren't, we're

433
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,200
not.
And maybe cars, but we're not,

434
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,560
we don't have sweatshops.
You know, Nike doesn't make

435
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,760
anything in America and Apple
doesn't make anything in

436
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,640
America.
And so we're already the, the

437
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,720
standard of living here is
already higher because of

438
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,360
technology.
And I and I think that everyone

439
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:40,120
in the world is hoping that, you
know, we could just keep, we

440
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:41,200
don't even know where it's
going.

441
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,720
It's just a freight train and
it's just chugging along.

442
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:49,800
Well, that's, I mean, that's a
horrifying thought because, and

443
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:55,200
I think it's an accurate one,
because there there's still a

444
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,120
baseline of need.
People need shelter, they need

445
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:06,360
clothing, they need food.
And there there's a value in

446
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:08,080
that.
There's a value in providing

447
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:14,000
that, whether you're a farmer or
a, or a rancher or or whatever,

448
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,160
whatever.
So that will never go away

449
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,280
unless, unless the healthcare
for I'd say, you know how you

450
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,960
know, or are doctors going to
work for nothing?

451
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,760
And, and as we live in an
entirely bartering society, I, I

452
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,560
just don't, yeah, I don't.
And I'm the first one to be I, I

453
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,280
don't want to say I'm anti
capitalist.

454
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,320
I'm I'm not.
But where one side of the aisle

455
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,120
they fear the government, on the
other side of the aisle they

456
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:48,840
fear on my side of the aisle,
they fear big business.

457
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,760
It's like at least the
government at at least their

458
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:59,600
charter says they're supposed to
be there to help you business.

459
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,440
No, their their job is to make
money and and I've seen it again

460
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,200
again, they will they will throw
their mother under the bus if it

461
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,360
raises the stock price.
So I where it all leads.

462
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,360
I I don't know.
Yeah, I've talked a lot about

463
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:20,720
that about that concept because
I find myself kind of homeless

464
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,640
as far as like I don't think
either of them are very have

465
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,720
been have proven to be very
effective ways of of helping

466
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,840
people.
So I don't really know what it

467
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:34,440
is, but I've been pretty I've
been pretty black pill this as

468
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,840
far as my understanding of of
having optimism in either of the

469
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,640
two parties at the moment.
But I think rest I don't know.

470
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,680
I don't know what I don't know
where it's going to go from

471
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,240
here.
But I'd love to hear if you

472
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,680
don't mind a little bit about so
you came, you see, told me how

473
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,440
you started writing.
How did you come about the world

474
00:26:53,440 --> 00:27:00,920
building and the concepts?
And I growing up, the first of

475
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,560
all I loved, I think it was a
second book with or the third

476
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,520
book with the water planet.
The whole the second book and

477
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,480
that and the character Spader
just for some reason had like a

478
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,920
special place in my heart.
But there's, I wanted to ask

479
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,800
about a couple of things #1 the
world building and also the

480
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,880
characters, because you did a
really cool job blending the

481
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:28,240
main characters as far as jocks
and nerds and someone straddling

482
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,720
the line in between and, and the
awkward teenage, you know,

483
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,240
everything.
And, and you captured that

484
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,200
experience so perfectly.
And it was because, and one of

485
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,000
the things I was in in a kind of
timeless way, I was talking to

486
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,200
friends about of mine recently
about Calvin Hobbes.

487
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,480
And one of the things we were
saying was even if you may not

488
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,800
get the cultural, you know, the
cultural references common thing

489
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,800
on humanity.
And like these human traits

490
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,400
don't change on a day-to-day
basis.

491
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,400
Bill Waters can be writing in
2025 for anyone, for anyone

492
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,160
knows, and it'll be just as
funny and just as accurate.

493
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,000
And I know that from my siblings
and my students and and my

494
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:02,880
friends.
So.

495
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,480
So can you tell me a little bit
about your process and how this

496
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,520
went?
Yeah, it, it, I mean, if there's

497
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,200
Boisele, I could answer there's
a million different ways because

498
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:18,440
it's not a it's kind of like the
easy question that I got asked

499
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,520
is So what were you inspired by?
You know, it's just like, oh

500
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,560
boy, that that answer is it's
there's no easy answer to that

501
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,800
because, because inspiration
comes from multiple sources and

502
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,400
they usually then coalesce and
do a story or a character or

503
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,880
whatever.
If there's one thing and I I

504
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,640
can't tell you why this is
important to me.

505
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,560
If I had a therapist, you could
ask my therapist, But if there's

506
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,720
one thing that is it consistent
in all of my writing, whether

507
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,880
it's the TV shows that I've
written or the books that I've

508
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:59,120
written, it's the concept of
self empowerment where it's, and

509
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,760
I, and I often I write about all
ages, but often kind of hit that

510
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,720
sweet spot of like around 1415
years old, which is what Bobby

511
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,680
Pendragon started.
And, and I love that age because

512
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,320
it's an age where you're right
in between, where you're, you're

513
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,320
no longer joint at the hip to
your parents.

514
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,720
You can start having a little
bit of, of freedom and

515
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,600
independence yet you don't know
anything yet.

516
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,040
You think you do, but you don't.
So, so you're just learning on

517
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:39,840
your own about the world.
And I we say how people always

518
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,680
ask why, why in Disney films do
the parents always have to die?

519
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,040
And it's like, that's an easy
one.

520
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,800
I mean, yes, there's the
sympathy factor.

521
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,000
You want to feel sorry for the
kids whose parents died.

522
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,160
You know, poor Bambi, your
mother got shot.

523
00:29:54,440 --> 00:30:01,760
But, but, but the, the, the real
reason is that in order for the

524
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,360
kid to go on the adventure of
both the conflict and the

525
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,640
learning whatnot, they have to
do it on their own without help

526
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,080
from outside sources.
So I always put young people

527
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,560
into difficult situations where
the first thing they do was I

528
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,280
looked at my parent for whatever
reason, parents out of the

529
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,880
picture.
I, I did 91 episodes of Are You

530
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,120
Afraid of the Dark and got rid
of the parents in 91 times.

531
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,400
They candy.
They're not, for whatever

532
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:28,840
reason, their parents aren't
around.

533
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,280
They'll go to the police.
I can't get to the police.

534
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:32,800
I go to a teacher, can't get to
the teacher.

535
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,600
Doors keep closing in front of
them until they say like, oh, if

536
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,640
I'm going to get out of this,
I've got to do it on my own.

537
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,280
And therein lies the growth and
the adventure.

538
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:45,240
So that's one kind of starting
point with all my stories is

539
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,440
about a person, no matter what
the age is, whether they're

540
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:52,000
really young or even adult, it's
like, how are they going to see

541
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,840
their way through the jungle
here to to solve their issue

542
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,800
and.
With the character trajectory

543
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,760
that you want to that you want
to emphasize.

544
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,520
Yeah, it's one of them.
I mean, it's not necessarily the

545
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,760
first, but it's one of.
I said there are many things

546
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,160
that that's one of them, but I
always.

547
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,040
You're saying like piece of
paper and you're and you're

548
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,640
like, where do I, I want to
start something?

549
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,600
Do you start with talking it
out?

550
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,240
Do you start like because I, I'm
the someone, for example, that

551
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,000
I, I start, I just start writing
and I kind of see where I start

552
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,880
writing.
I'm very bad at planning ahead

553
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,320
of what I'm going to write.
A lot of times if I try to plan

554
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,600
ahead, it all falls apart And
that's why I'm bad at long form

555
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,240
writing actually.
Or I haven't must exercise that

556
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:30,960
muscle.
I see.

557
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,960
Yes.
Well, you know, it's funny

558
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,400
there, there are two schools and
and I get into this with other

559
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,800
authors all the time.
There are the people who like

560
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,360
you where it's just like they'll
sit down and like, OK, I have an

561
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,280
idea, let me just start writing
it and see where it takes me.

562
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,240
Perfectly valid that that's
fine.

563
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,880
I can't do that.
You can't read 10 books.

564
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,160
Like that.
Well, no, I, I outlined, I, I

565
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,400
outlined those 10 Pendragon
books in about two weeks.

566
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:08,080
I, I, yeah, I mean, in broad
strokes, it was yeah, yeah.

567
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,880
And, and also part of that is
because a lot of my stories, all

568
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,480
my stories are very, they're
plot heavy and there's a mystery

569
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,760
involved that has to be solved.
And so you can't really write

570
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,800
about it until you know where
it's going to end.

571
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,840
In order to write a murder
mystery, you have to know who'd

572
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,760
done it.
Then you work backwards as to

573
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,720
laying in the clues or the
misdirections or all that kind

574
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,720
of stuff.
So, so, so my process and

575
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,640
actually this is, that's what
I'm about to say.

576
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,960
It's the second part of the
process, but the first part of

577
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,440
the process is kind of like
they're like 3 different areas.

578
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,960
1 is what kind of character do I
want to write about, which you

579
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,720
just talked about.
It's like what kind of who are

580
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,720
they, what kind of journey
they're going to go on?

581
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,960
What do they have to overcome?
Because every good story is

582
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,440
about someone who wants
something that you come any

583
00:32:58,440 --> 00:32:59,840
story, what is it?
What do they want?

584
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,720
And the story is how they get it
or not get it and what the, and

585
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,320
the story is the impediments
they have along the way to try

586
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,080
to get that thing, whatever that
thing is.

587
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,320
You know, Wizard of Oz, Dorothy
wants to get home.

588
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,800
That's what's driving her the
whole time.

589
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,160
The fact that she meets the
Scarecrow in a 10 minute, that's

590
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,880
just, that's just.
Yeah, step along the way.

591
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,120
It steps along the way and
impediments and victories and

592
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,840
all that kind of stuff.
So I start with a character that

593
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,240
that wants something.
Yeah.

594
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,040
And, and, and, and this is kind
of critical too.

595
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,480
Usually my stories have a big
hook to them, whether it's a

596
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,520
science fiction hook or a
supernatural hook.

597
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:49,640
But I want a story about someone
or some or a few people who

598
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:54,480
whose story would be interesting
even if they never came upon the

599
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,160
science fiction boogeyman.
Whatever it happens to because I

600
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,240
want, I want a story about a
kid, an adult, doesn't matter

601
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,520
that they're going through a
really relatable real life

602
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:06,760
situation.
Conflicts.

603
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,280
Does that be hugely dramatic if
it's a, you know, already afraid

604
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,800
of the dark?
But it's something that they've

605
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:16,199
got to overcome that readers or
viewers can relate to because

606
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,840
we're going to care about what
happens to them.

607
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,760
And maybe our caring amounts to
we hope they fail because we

608
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,760
hate them.
I mean that that's valid too.

609
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,040
But they would be interesting to
read about or or watch even if

610
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,880
they never came upon the
supernatural hook, because then

611
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,040
now there's the second part of
the story is of the process is

612
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,719
what's the supernatural hook?
What's the science fiction hook

613
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,719
and whatnot.
And that's equally important to

614
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,520
come up with something that is
interesting to me that I think

615
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,360
will be interesting to people,
whether it's a land entirely

616
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,560
covered in water and there's a
sunken city that they have to

617
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,240
find in order to stop these
underwater farms from from being

618
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:04,480
poisoned.
You know, that's the fun setting

619
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,120
for it.
That's that's the second one.

620
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,640
The third one is I try to come
up with some kind of theme that

621
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,280
what are we really talking about
here?

622
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,280
It's not just about a kid who's
being bullied.

623
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:20,760
Whatever I made just made that
up.

624
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,240
What's the larger picture that
I'm talking about here?

625
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,160
And with each of the Pendragon
stories, there's, there's a much

626
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,960
larger thing and and there's,
there's, there's a theme that

627
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,160
runs with the whole thing
that's, that is homogeneous to

628
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,000
the whole thing.
But then each book has its own

629
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,640
particular theme that is plays
out as the characters are

630
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,000
playing out their individual
conflicts and the conflict of

631
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,840
that book.
That's saying more about, that's

632
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,120
speaking more than just, oh,
here's a good guy and a bad guy

633
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,440
and we got to try to beat the
bad guy because he's bad.

634
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:03,360
So, so I I try to have it a
little deeper and more complex

635
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:09,320
than just a superficial thing.
And I do all that before I ever

636
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,520
put pen to paper.
It's all that's the fun part for

637
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:12,880
me.
And and.

638
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,240
So how do you do that?
Are you talking this out?

639
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:17,560
Are you writing this in in a
notebook?

640
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,520
Are you with, are you with
friends or family?

641
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,640
Do you have a particular?
Do you have a particular method

642
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:28,200
that goes about that?
In the beginning, it's, it's a

643
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,200
three-step process in, in the
beginning, it's just in my head.

644
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,200
And the older I get, the more I
have to take notes because it's

645
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,640
like, what was that good idea
that I had?

646
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,000
Oh, damn, that was so good.
I wish I could have remembered

647
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:40,800
it.
Oh man.

648
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:44,680
But most of it's just in my
head.

649
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,480
I'm literally just thinking it
through.

650
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,400
And one of the talk about
process I have, I've trained

651
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,840
myself to, let's talk about
writer's block for a second.

652
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,760
Most people think writer's block
is when you can't come up with

653
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,760
ideas.
To me, that's not writer's

654
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,920
block, that's you can't come up
with ideas.

655
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,720
To me, writer's block is the
impediments that keep you from

656
00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:14,920
working on coming up with those
ideas, the distractions.

657
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,160
And so, you know, I'm, I'm
sitting here and I'm writing

658
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,240
whatever I'm writing.
I'm like, oh, I got to feed the

659
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:22,840
dog.
I got, oh, no, I can't do it.

660
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:23,800
OK, let me go.
OK.

661
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,280
God, I'm so tired.
I can't, oh, I can't do that.

662
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,480
I'm thirsty.
I better get something to drink.

663
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,600
Those are all the things that
are stopping you from being

664
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,680
productive.
So excuse me.

665
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:37,440
I've trained myself when I first
wake up in the morning, when my

666
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:43,120
brain is clean slate, it is
clear that I, I turn myself to

667
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,040
whatever story I'm working on.
And that's when I come up with

668
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,280
so many of the ideas because I
can focus solely on that I,

669
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:52,960
that, that challenge that I
meant that I, whatever it

670
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,440
happens to me, it's, it's
remarkable.

671
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,800
I also will go for a run or go
for a walk or something like

672
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,400
that just to clear out all the
blocks that allows you to

673
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,360
somehow magically focus in on
the challenge that you've, how

674
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:07,600
am I going to get him to do
this?

675
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:08,680
And that story?
I don't know.

676
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,040
You could be beating your head
against the wall.

677
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,080
Then you go out for a run.
You're like, oh, of course

678
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,480
that's that's what it's going to
be.

679
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,000
Why didn't I think that was
easy?

680
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:16,880
And it seems so easy, but it
wasn't.

681
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,720
So in the beginning I just come
up with ideas in general and

682
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:25,000
whatnot.
Then the first thing I do is I

683
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:30,160
write an outline, and once I'm
kind of have in my head where

684
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,640
the story's going to go, who the
character is, what the themes

685
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:38,360
are, then I make it a little bit
more concrete by typing out an

686
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,840
outline.
And the term outline is probably

687
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,440
too formal for what I do.
It's not like 11-A1B1C.

688
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,160
It's not quite like that.
It's just putting notes down to

689
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,200
shape a story.
And the beauty of that is that

690
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:59,120
it's so easily changed because
you're not sweating writing the

691
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,520
right words that people will
read.

692
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:03,720
No one else is going to read
this but me.

693
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,840
So we can move things around.
You can tell that shouldn't

694
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:07,800
happen there.
Well, that sucks.

695
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,040
OK, You know, I can.
I can move things around so

696
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,320
easily and beat out the story in
broad strokes all the way

697
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,440
through to the end, so much so
that I'm confident.

698
00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:20,800
OK, this works.
I, I, I get it.

699
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,160
Everything up to that point is
fun for me and enjoyable.

700
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,960
I should say it stops getting
enjoyable instantly at that

701
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,520
point.
So when I write a first draft, I

702
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,920
hate writing the first draft
because you are writing words

703
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,320
that people are going to read.
So suddenly you're worried about

704
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,920
rearranging deck chairs in the
Titanic Where so, but oh, but by

705
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,600
the way, at that point, I throw
away the outline.

706
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:49,880
It's like I, I don't even refer
to it.

707
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,560
It's just that I but the outline
is forced me to go through a

708
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,480
process.
So I'm confident that as long as

709
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,920
I hit these major points, it's
going to work out in the end.

710
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:04,600
And I often find that once I
start writing, you know what, I

711
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,040
imagined it was going to go like
this.

712
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,160
It really went like that.
And but I always have in mind

713
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,600
that I know I have to end up
over here.

714
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,840
So like that.
And then I will get stuck and

715
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,560
I'm like, well, what did I, what
did I mean?

716
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:17,720
What was, what was it going to
be?

717
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,000
So I'll go back to the outline
and go, whoa, that's not at all

718
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:25,200
what I had thought of before.
Whatever, but it it the the only

719
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,880
real.
I think downside to writing an

720
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:33,080
outline is that if you consider
it etched and granite where

721
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,080
you're writing it, you come up
with the idea and you're like,

722
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:36,600
well no, that doesn't go to the
outline.

723
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,280
So I can't do that.
You can't do that because that

724
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,360
stops you from coming up with
better ideas Because just

725
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,240
because that was your first
idea, even if it was your 5th

726
00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:47,000
idea, it may not be the best
idea.

727
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,200
But as you actually go through
the process and the story is

728
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,080
really taking shape.
I mean, actually in a nuts to

729
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:56,560
bolts level, usually taking
places that you better places

730
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,120
that you never really imagined,
you start going deep into

731
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,360
things.
And, and so eventually, you

732
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,160
know, it's kind of like if
you'll get it, I think of it as

733
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,480
like a map, map of a forest and
you have your starting point,

734
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,720
you have like 4 or five places,
you know, you're going to hit

735
00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:10,880
and you know where you got to
go.

736
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,920
But who knows what that trail is
that's going to get you.

737
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,960
You have to carve through that
forest to get to these places.

738
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,920
As long as you hit those major
points, and you may even change

739
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,440
those major points when you get
there, it'll get to the end.

740
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,800
So that that's really the then I
get to the end of the first

741
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,240
draft, thank God.
And then it gets fun again,

742
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,120
because then you can start
playing with it and you go back

743
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,000
to see what you wrote.
And it's like, Oh, I could do

744
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,480
this much better.
Oh, it's that I love rewriting

745
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,080
and it which is I say this to
kids.

746
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,840
I don't know.
It's going to be the death of

747
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,960
me.
Well, OK, maybe you won't say

748
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,800
this to your students, but, but.
Every, every, every writer that

749
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,480
I admire, every that I know
personally that I admire, edits

750
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,200
a ton and loves the editing
process and I hate it and I

751
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,760
can't stand it.
And I'm the only one.

752
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,720
I see it from the good writers
and the bad writers, because all

753
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:05,640
the good writers love to edit
and I can't stand it.

754
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,200
Well, it's hard because it's
hard to get it down on paper,

755
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:10,920
and it's like, I got to change
it now.

756
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,920
This is crazy, but I will tell
you, people often ask how many

757
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,160
drafts do you do?
And I'm like, I couldn't even

758
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:24,440
count because I'll write 7 pages
in a day, let's say 7 single

759
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,400
space type pages.
The first thing I do the next

760
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,080
day, I'll go back and I'll
rewrite those pages because,

761
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:34,120
because, because coming up with
those words is hard.

762
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,360
And you're, and you're worried
so much about the, the micro

763
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,000
that you may not be seeing the
macro.

764
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,240
So once, once you've got it
down, then you go back and go, I

765
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,720
kind of can't believe I wrote
that and change it.

766
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:46,720
And, and I say this to kids all
the time.

767
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:49,480
And, and you should say it to
your kids, even though you don't

768
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,920
believe it yourself.
Well, you may believe it, but

769
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:56,280
you may not like it.
But I'll say it to you too then.

770
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,960
OK, I'll say it to you that that
when I say to kids, if they have

771
00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:03,280
to do a report or whatever, this
is free, AII guess.

772
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,160
But I was like, if you've got an
assignment to write about the

773
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,320
Titanic, whatever it happens to
be, whatever or whatever it is,

774
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,280
first of all, don't leave it
till the last minute and say do

775
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,320
do it soon.
Do it right away and just get it

776
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,240
done and then put it away.
Forget about it, go on with

777
00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:26,760
life, do whatever else life
brings to you, do your sports,

778
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,120
do other things, do whatever.
And then you know, a little bit

779
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,120
before it's due, go back to it.
Because then suddenly you'll

780
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:39,240
look at it semi objectively and
you'll be able to find out where

781
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:41,840
the flaws are.
That your teacher is then going

782
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,680
to read and go, Oh no, because
now you're reading it like them

783
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,920
from their point of view, not
100% but but close to it.

784
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,840
And you'll change it.
I mean, believe me, I'm somebody

785
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,480
who hated writing in school.
So when, when the teacher would

786
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,800
say, OK, you're going to write
this thing, first you have to

787
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,520
write an outline.
Then then you write the, the

788
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,000
paper, whatever.
I'm like, well, wait a minute,

789
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,160
you want me to write an outline?
Then you want to write the

790
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:04,320
paper.
That's like 2 outlines.

791
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,640
That's like 2 papers.
I don't want to do that the.

792
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,160
Response has not changed in 50
years.

793
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,640
No, it's human nature.
I get it.

794
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:15,480
I I believe me, I get it.
But if you want your writing to

795
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,680
be good.
I tell them to read out loud to

796
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,400
themselves and that's typically
what I do with myself is I'll

797
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,920
actually read what I write out
loud and then and then when it

798
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,720
comes out of my mouth and my ear
bounces off my ears, the things

799
00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:32,400
that don't, that aren't natural
or don't flow or aren't organic

800
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,720
will typically strike or are
very striking.

801
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:37,120
It's very quick to.
Yeah.

802
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,160
And your eye is easy.
Your eye wants to just process

803
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,760
it all quickly, you know.
You it's like Paris and the the

804
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,480
spring.
You know that that old thing

805
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,080
where it's Paris and the the
spring and you don't read that

806
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,840
there's two thes there.
You just, you just blow by it.

807
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:54,280
I do that too.
I definitely do with

808
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,360
screenplays.
I mean that because that really

809
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,040
is meant because I do dialogue
and whatnot.

810
00:44:58,040 --> 00:44:59,760
You.
Have to do that I want, I want,

811
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,280
I want to get into that.
I wanted to ask you one another

812
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,840
quick question as far as drafts
and writing stuff goes.

813
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:09,360
I've heard this phenomenon that
happens particularly with very

814
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:14,200
character driven stories, is
that at a certain point, once

815
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,000
you've given the character
enough personality or history or

816
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,840
written a certain way, even if
you have other plans for the

817
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:24,560
character, he he or she will cut
will take their own form of life

818
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:30,840
and will almost despite whatever
plans you originally had.

819
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,480
Their character needs a
different arc because of what

820
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,120
they've become.
Whether you've meant for that to

821
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:39,120
happen or not is that.
That you create that is.

822
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,320
That's not it's, it's absolutely
true.

823
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,880
Actually, I'll tell you a story
that and I won't mention the

824
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:50,160
name, but when I was at NYU,
this is going way back, I took a

825
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,080
comedy writing class because I
thought for a minute I could

826
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:57,120
write comedy.
I'm not a comedy writer.

827
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,040
The I can write humorous.
I can't write.

828
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,040
I can't write funny.
No one laughs away.

829
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,560
The the best I ever get is,
yeah, that's the most I'm going

830
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:07,880
to get out of.
But no, Bobby Pendragon says

831
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,880
something wise.
Podcast comedy.

832
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:11,880
Yeah, I could.
Well, yeah, I could.

833
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,720
And I took a common writing
class from a a very notable

834
00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:17,920
comedy writer.
I won't mention names.

835
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,800
And and this person had prior to
the big job they had at the

836
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,920
time, which was really cool.
And I won't mention what it was

837
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,000
because I don't want not not
that they're going to see this,

838
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,200
but but they'd also written on a
notable sitcom prior to that

839
00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:37,120
with a notable sitcom character
and that that show had been on

840
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:42,160
for years.
And this writer was talking to

841
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,880
the class and saying how tough
it is to be a writer, basically,

842
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,800
and how especially when you're
just a writer on a show as

843
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,000
opposed to the showrunner on a
show, you're at the mercy of the

844
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,280
showrunner.
So the showrunner is the last

845
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:57,960
word, literally.
And this person was writing this

846
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,800
character that that the world
knew, or at least the United

847
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,840
States knew.
And the showrunner definitely

848
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,680
knew.
And this person wrote a line of

849
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:13,840
dialogue and turned the script
in and the showrunner said, this

850
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,000
is her telling the story.
This is the writer telling the

851
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,200
story.
And the showrunner said this

852
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:24,280
character would never say that.
And the writers come back to us.

853
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,440
I mean, I think, I think what
the writer said to the

854
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:31,640
showrunner was oh, OK, but what,
what the because, because

855
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,520
showrunner was the boss for.
The classroom when you tell the

856
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,320
story about it later.
Yeah, telling how so how this

857
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,480
writer felt about it was this is
a fictional character.

858
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,120
I I can they say what I tell
them to say.

859
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,640
And even as a kid who hadn't had
that much experience, I'm

860
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:52,880
thinking what you were just
said.

861
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,240
It's like, oh, no, that's not
you're wrong.

862
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:01,000
If you've created a character
who has a voice who you know how

863
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,520
they're going to act, they can't
do things that go against that

864
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:06,920
or you're going to lose your
audience.

865
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:13,040
So it so you are 100% correct
and it shocked me that this

866
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,320
really notable writer didn't
believe in that.

867
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:23,560
Like, OK, but you're right.
If your character has a strong

868
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,160
enough voice, thrown off
personality, thrown off

869
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,560
character, you're you're tied to
that.

870
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,080
You know they can grow.
If you know if they can, they

871
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,480
can, then what they should grow.
So they may grow to the point

872
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,560
where they would say something
goofy like that.

873
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:40,480
But you have to show that
growth.

874
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:42,720
You can't just have them out of
the blue.

875
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,040
Yeah, say something that doesn't
matter.

876
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,800
I I was listening to a Joe Rogan
podcast the other day with Ben

877
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,520
Affleck and Matt Damon and they
were pushing there they were

878
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,160
pushing the new Netflix film
that that that just came out a

879
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,560
couple of days ago.
And I started adding it, adding

880
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,240
it around to watching yet.
But one thing that they

881
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:04,720
mentioned in the in the
interview was that Netflix is

882
00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:08,160
acutely aware of the fact that
people are, are typically not

883
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:09,680
paying attention while they're
writing.

884
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,320
And so they'll push the writers
to repeat and re emphasize plot

885
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,800
points throughout the throughout
the script, whether or not the

886
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,760
writer wants to put it there
because they know the audience

887
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,000
might not be paying attention.
You know, they're scrolling for

888
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:24,160
what?
The first time you say 10

889
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,040
minutes in and then they're
scrolling the second time you

890
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,760
say 30 minutes in.
And so for, you know, an hour,

891
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,000
an hour and 20 minutes in, you
got to re summarize everything.

892
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,200
And the issue with that becomes
the same kind of issue as what

893
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,880
we're talking about now, which
is a kind of it, it ruins the

894
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,880
organic flow of what a show was
even supposed to be.

895
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,400
And I even, and again, just to
give the Dead Poets Society

896
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,040
example, again, there were so
many scenes in that movie and I

897
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,000
told I had to prepare my
students for the movie.

898
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,400
I said, this movie's a genre.
There used to be a genre called

899
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:59,840
dramas, and they used to be that
used to act and express things

900
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:01,880
without necessarily saying
something.

901
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,840
So the director would do
something with the camera

902
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,240
worker. the OR the actor would
say would specifically not say

903
00:50:08,240 --> 00:50:10,160
something.
Or Jerry Garcia used to say the

904
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,680
chord unstruck, the the note
unstruck that you would not

905
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,000
play.
And as a lookout for that and

906
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,720
lookout for moments that make
you think and that are like

907
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,480
that.
And there are several moments in

908
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,560
the film where half the students
weren't sure whether to laugh or

909
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,800
to cry or like, they weren't
sure what emotion to feel.

910
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,280
And there was nothing directing
them in any particular way.

911
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:35,200
It just sat with them.
And that's such a lost art.

912
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,360
But that's, I feel the real.
What was such a beautiful art of

913
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,800
storytelling and filmmaking.
And even, you know, especially

914
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,480
with books, cause books, you
have your brain as the as the

915
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,120
imagination, as the, as the
projector.

916
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,640
Your brain is the projector.
And so while you're reading in

917
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,800
your and you're and you and I've
and I dove in and I'm on the

918
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,840
couch for 45 minutes or an hour
straight, just turning pages

919
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,480
over and over and my my brains
going on like a like a, like a

920
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:05,360
movie projector.
I feel like with because we're

921
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:10,880
aware of human behavior, we're
trying to compensate for how far

922
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,520
our attention span has fallen
and how far our ability to

923
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,360
appreciate the arts are.
And instead of trying to pick

924
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,360
people back up, we're adjusting.
We're we're, we're moving the

925
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:24,400
yardstick down instead, instead
of trying to raise people up.

926
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,840
Well, you know, I'll tell you.
I've heard that about Netflix

927
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:34,400
from other sources too.
Where from other writers who

928
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,720
said not necessarily that you
have to repeat it every 10

929
00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:40,120
minutes or whatever, but that
was very specific, but it's just

930
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:44,080
more like they know that people
are distracted on their phones

931
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,880
and what not.
This one particular writer said

932
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,920
so they don't care that it sucks
because people aren't paying my

933
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,200
close attention.
One thing I've noticed, and this

934
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,000
is this is a little positive in
here too.

935
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:04,640
I found that where that
phenomenon occurs is with these

936
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:09,880
made for streaming movies.
There are some big movies, they

937
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:14,560
aren't cheap movies, big cast,
big budgets and they're just

938
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:17,480
terrible.
The the writing is just terrible

939
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,680
and.
It it seems like, well, Temple

940
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,720
does a lot of them.
And you think this is this is

941
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:25,520
going to be good and you're
like, this sucks, this is

942
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,800
horrible.
The good part is it's almost

943
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,000
like we're we're topsy turvy
world now.

944
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:36,960
What's really being elevated is
television writing, not movies,

945
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:38,960
episodes.
Oh yes.

946
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:44,440
That's where all the good stuff
is and, and it's and you're it's

947
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:46,680
the short attention span is
built in.

948
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,840
It's not a 2 1/2 hour movie.
It's a 45 minute episode.

949
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:53,720
So you don't have to, they don't
feel like you have to repeat it

950
00:52:53,720 --> 00:52:56,920
or, or be stupid.
So there's some really, really

951
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:02,000
smart series on that are really
impressive where the movies are

952
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:06,600
just horrible, but but the
series are really good.

953
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,640
The limited series too.
I love the limited series.

954
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:11,160
In particular the limited
series.

955
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,920
Because, because what they do is
they take something that would

956
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,760
have been too short for a
television series that, that,

957
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,200
that that is the typical station
would have, would have wanted to

958
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:24,040
kind of, you know, make 20
seasons of or something like

959
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,040
that.
Or, you know, it's not quite

960
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,040
there and it's not quite in the
two hour movie and it's

961
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,480
somewhere in between, but it's
still a real and you can get a

962
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:35,200
grade writers, directors,
whatever to tell and it's name

963
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,120
and it's an A+ story.
I I read a great book by a

964
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,680
gentleman named Ben, Ben Fritz,
who actually I spoke to I meant

965
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,840
to start another podcast before
I started this one a couple of

966
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:46,440
years ago and he was going to be
my first guest.

967
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,160
But he wrote this a great book
called the Big Picture about why

968
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,560
particular genres are not in
film anymore, or at least in

969
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,680
movie theaters rather anymore.
And one thing he said was the

970
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:03,600
fact that global markets now
don't, you know, dictate the the

971
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,800
business decisions that studio
executive make.

972
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,040
Because you depend so heavily in
the box office.

973
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,800
And if something doesn't convert
to a Chinese audience or to a

974
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:15,760
European audience or whatever,
then it's they're missing out on

975
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,440
potentially hundreds of millions
of dollars that they could be

976
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,200
making.
And so he says that's why you

977
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,000
see such a enormous rise in
franchises for for theaters,

978
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:30,720
whereas streamers specifically
want to be as eclectic as

979
00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:32,960
possible because they want as
many different types of people

980
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,880
signing up for their service.
And so they're green lighting

981
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,800
all sorts of genres and all
sorts of movies because they

982
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,520
know even if one out of every 50
people watch it, that's a lot of

983
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:44,880
that, that put that across the
world.

984
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:46,840
I mean, that's, that that's
significant.

985
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:50,240
And, and if you think and, and
what I, what I've always noticed

986
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:54,000
is, but I'm, I'm in an Airbnb
right now, you go to, you log

987
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,160
into the Netflix and you look at
the algorithm and you look at

988
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,600
the, at the potential of what
you could watch.

989
00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:04,960
And none of it is the same thing
as the thousands of stuff that's

990
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,680
on my Netflix account.
You know, I mean, there's no

991
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,000
overlap.
So it just showed how, how, how

992
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,800
personalized a lot of this
content is and they just keep

993
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:15,080
making it.
It's incredible.

994
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:20,200
And, and fortunately, from a,
from a economic point of view,

995
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:26,880
it's not good for the people
making it because these short

996
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:31,760
series, you know, 8 episodes,
you can't make a living doing

997
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:36,280
that.
It's and to get a second season

998
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,160
on some of these things is huge.
To get a third season is unheard

999
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:40,960
of.
I mean, it does happen

1000
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,480
sometimes, but it's unheard of.
So it, it, it's really changed

1001
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,720
the paradigm of, of being
someone working in this

1002
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:51,960
industry.
I, I see it also with there's so

1003
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:56,320
many big stars that are in,
suddenly they're all over the

1004
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,240
place.
It's like Harrison Ford is like,

1005
00:55:58,560 --> 00:55:59,840
I, I think he's like in a whole
movie.

1006
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:01,320
The other, I mean, he's in
everything now.

1007
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,280
It's because what he's in,
they're all short term.

1008
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,200
You're only shooting it for a,
a, a little bit at a time.

1009
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,360
And so therefore you could do 5
projects or in three projects

1010
00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:13,960
and it doesn't bode well for
the, for the, the people, the

1011
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,360
writers and the workers 'cause
they're, there's no security in

1012
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,200
doing it.
So it's, and because with

1013
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:26,760
streamers, because the Netflix's
of the world are of the world,

1014
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:30,000
It's not the old days where it's
just NBC is in the United States

1015
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,000
and then you can license it
elsewhere and there could be a

1016
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,240
revenue stream there.
Now it's all Netflix wants.

1017
00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:37,000
Everything well.
Yeah, but depending where you

1018
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,360
go, I think they're a little bit
more, I think it's a little bit

1019
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,120
more technical than that.
I because I, I know that, I

1020
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,680
mean, obviously even based on
where your country is, like what

1021
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,600
country you're in, the licensing
rights are different and I don't

1022
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:49,640
know.
And everything gets a little

1023
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,400
squirrely outside the States
from my understanding.

1024
00:56:53,720 --> 00:56:55,760
Well, Netflix, they want
everything.

1025
00:56:56,200 --> 00:57:00,560
They do want to.
Pay higher, higher fees up pay

1026
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:04,520
higher fees up front, but.
That's what draws them in.

1027
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,720
That's and that's the stupid
that's the same short term

1028
00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:12,080
problem that that we have.
I think the if, if America

1029
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:16,520
stopped getting off a three or
four month business plan,

1030
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,920
instead started focusing a
little bit more on a couple of

1031
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,680
years down the line.
And I think that a lot would

1032
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,040
change very quickly.
And I think that this

1033
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:28,880
incredibly, incredibly short
term thinking and incentivizing

1034
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:34,640
is just, I mean, think about, if
you think about I'm, I'm hungry

1035
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:36,520
and you're not going to think
about what the food, how, what

1036
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,520
the food's going to make you
feel like in an hour from now,

1037
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:40,800
then you're never going to eat
well.

1038
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,000
Then you're think about how
quickly your body will fall

1039
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,200
apart if you, if you can't plan
for the future at all.

1040
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,480
And I remember even with Amazon,
I've read, I've read about, I've

1041
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:50,840
read a couple books about them.
And one of the main things that,

1042
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:53,640
that, that, that everyone
admired and was was blown away

1043
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:55,600
by was the fact that they didn't
care what their stock prices

1044
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:56,920
was.
They said, listen, if Wall

1045
00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:58,600
Street wants to punish us,
they'll punish us.

1046
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:00,880
But at the end of the day, we're
looking to grow our business and

1047
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:02,720
we're not looking to make any
friends in Wall Street.

1048
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:06,200
We don't need every projection
to be the top thing in the

1049
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:07,680
world.
In a year from now, when they

1050
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,560
see what our plan is, they'll
all come running and look what

1051
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,080
happened.
I mean, you got, you got.

1052
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:14,640
To now he's the richest man in
the world.

1053
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,040
Yeah, Yeah.
Well, yeah.

1054
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,280
Other than what's all the world
like that?

1055
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:21,800
Yeah.
I wanted to ask for we, but I

1056
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:23,360
know you're running out of time.
You've got a couple minutes

1057
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:24,960
left.
I wanted to ask about the

1058
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:28,240
difference between screen
writing and script writing and

1059
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:32,440
fictional writing or any other
form because I know I, I tried,

1060
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:34,920
but my heart, my original
aspiration was to be a

1061
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,720
screenwriter.
And I, I, I always wanted to,

1062
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:41,880
and I took a creative, I took a
screen write screenplay writing

1063
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:46,520
class in college and I talked, I
told the story and I, I loved my

1064
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:51,000
professor, but he, I, I
submitted my first assignment

1065
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:55,400
and he looks at me and he calls
me over after and he goes, So is

1066
00:58:55,400 --> 00:59:04,520
your character autistic?
I said not intentionally read

1067
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,720
your script out loud.
And I said OK.

1068
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,920
And I took the paper and I read
out loud and I'm like, I cannot

1069
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:15,080
believe how mechanical and
robotic and terrible this

1070
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:16,880
sounds.
And and, and, and I and it

1071
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:18,640
turns, you know, I mean,
obviously it was a pretty blunt

1072
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:20,160
way of putting it, but he was
right.

1073
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:21,720
Yeah.
I mean, it was, it was terrible.

1074
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,080
So can you you want to can you
tell me a little bit about the

1075
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,600
what it takes to write for for
script as opposed for just the

1076
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,680
page?
Well, there, there's, there are

1077
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,960
a lot of similarities too, and
it goes back to what we were

1078
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:37,040
talking about before.
I mean, when I, when I gave you

1079
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,120
my, my, my triumvirate of things
that I look at with, you know,

1080
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,200
the character, the setting and
the theme, it's the same as a

1081
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,840
screenplay or, or, but it it's
all the same stuff.

1082
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:50,280
It's good characters who want
something, I mean, based on its

1083
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:55,200
storytelling.
So that that's the same, the

1084
00:59:55,200 --> 01:00:01,960
mechanics of it, the screenplay
structure for the most part is

1085
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:06,760
very rigid and, and I used to
fight against that because I'm

1086
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:10,000
like, oh, people will sometimes
turn down scripts just as it

1087
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,120
doesn't fit some kind of format
with that four points.

1088
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:13,640
Wait a minute.
No, I got to write what makes

1089
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,840
sense and whatnot.
And, and there's truth to that,

1090
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:25,320
but the the scene structure,
pacing, pacing is so different

1091
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,240
and.
And the actual writing itself is

1092
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:34,600
very different because when
you're writing a screenplay,

1093
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,960
that's not the finished product.
The finished product is what's

1094
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,800
going to be on the screen.
And there are a whole lot of

1095
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:42,920
people that are going to take
that, starting with the

1096
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:47,000
director, who are going to take
that and add to it.

1097
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:49,120
That might not necessarily be on
the page.

1098
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:54,840
So one of the challenges in
writing a screenplay is writing

1099
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,400
with economy.
You, you can't describe things.

1100
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:02,200
You can't go thought process.
You can't it, it's all got to be

1101
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:04,920
you have to you have to see it.
You have to imagine what it's

1102
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,400
going to look like on screen.
And so you have to learn an

1103
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:12,000
economy of words to describe
what a scene should look like,

1104
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,600
what a setting should, what a
world should look like very

1105
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,720
quickly.
You, you can't expand and

1106
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:22,000
expound on something.
It's got to be fast because of

1107
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:23,600
course now I'm going to go
against that now.

1108
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:25,360
I don't know why movies are now
three hours long.

1109
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,400
It's crazy.
They don't need they.

1110
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:30,960
Not that they don't need to be.
They shouldn't be.

1111
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:35,840
I mean, Woody Allen once.
Pillars by the flower moon I

1112
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:39,280
took an I took an aisle seat
just so I could walk up and down

1113
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:41,640
the stairs while I was while I
was watching it to stretch my.

1114
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,760
Leg yes, yes, like what is the
heck?

1115
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,120
And and then you see these
budgets are 400 million to $300

1116
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:50,680
million.
It's like I could have cut $100

1117
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:52,920
million out of that and it would
have been a better movie.

1118
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:55,920
So.
So I don't, I don't, I don't get

1119
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:57,760
that phenomenon.
It's on the budget.

1120
01:01:57,760 --> 01:01:59,000
It's crazy.
It's crazy.

1121
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,640
I, I, I really don't get the
thinking there because it's not

1122
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,280
like it's a one off.
It's like they're all that long.

1123
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:06,800
I mean, usually a cut.
Woody Allen used to say that the

1124
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,160
ideal length for a comedy is 89
minutes.

1125
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,880
What movie is 89 minutes now?
It's they don't exist.

1126
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:18,280
We're streaming like I'll are
they I don't know I'll, I'll

1127
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:21,840
maybe I'll, I'll turn on a a
comedy that was made for

1128
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,280
streaming thinking, Oh, this
will be a short, fast thing.

1129
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,040
No, it's goes 2 1/2 hour.
What?

1130
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:30,840
Come on.
What's aren't studios saying?

1131
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:37,120
You know, come on.
So, so maybe my, my economy here

1132
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:41,400
isn't operative anymore.
I I don't know.

1133
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:46,640
But but you have to be able to
write visually that that's the

1134
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:51,000
big really with a short few
amount of word found in words.

1135
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:55,200
And you can't, it's the old show
don't tell thing with with a

1136
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:57,800
screenplay, you have to know you
are showing it.

1137
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:00,280
You're going to see it on
screen.

1138
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:04,520
The people are going to be
speaking dialogue where with a

1139
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:06,520
book, you can take some time
with it.

1140
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,200
You you can get into thought
process.

1141
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:12,120
You could, I mean, you don't no
one's going to see this.

1142
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:16,600
They're only going to see what
they're imagining is on your

1143
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:19,600
page.
So, so that's a very big

1144
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:23,840
difference that you have to be
much more hand holdy with books

1145
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:27,520
now.
Now things have changed a little

1146
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:31,040
bit too.
This is boy, and it speaks to

1147
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:34,440
ADHD.
Now, granted, I don't write

1148
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:36,960
great literature.
I, I'm the first one to say that

1149
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:40,200
I don't write great literature.
I write, I tell good stories and

1150
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:46,480
I talk about well and, and talk
about talk about reading it

1151
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:48,000
back, reading it aloud and
whatnot.

1152
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:54,320
So many of my books are written
in first person, so I write it.

1153
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:56,560
It's as if the character is
telling you the story.

1154
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,520
So the voice, whether it's
specific to Bobby Pendragon or

1155
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,640
Marshall Seaver or or whoever it
happens to be, you know, I come

1156
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,920
up with their, the way they
speak.

1157
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:09,720
I come up with the way, the way
they, their word choices,

1158
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:11,840
whatever.
And then I tell the story that

1159
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:13,400
way.
But it's like me telling them

1160
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:18,520
the story in that person's
voice, which is why it doesn't

1161
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:20,880
lend to great literature.
So unless you're Aaron Sorkin,

1162
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,880
where everyone has these
speeches that are like, wow,

1163
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:25,520
they came up with that at the
spur of the moment.

1164
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,400
That's that's brilliant.
That that character is amazing

1165
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:32,160
because I told you.
But especially for young people,

1166
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:37,160
they're not only writing their
own dialogue or telling their

1167
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:39,200
own dialogue, they're also
describing us going on.

1168
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,200
So it's a much simpler way of
writing.

1169
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:42,640
That's why I say it's not great
literature.

1170
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:45,920
You're not going to get lost in
the prose of, of what I wrote.

1171
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:48,960
It's it's very simple.
Where is I going with this

1172
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,720
screen?
Writing similar that way I

1173
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:53,320
think.
Yeah, screen writing is more

1174
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:54,920
like that.
You, you've, you've got to,

1175
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:57,440
you've, you've got to forget if
it's simplified, you've got to

1176
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:01,560
paint the picture very quickly.
And then you have to, there's a,

1177
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:06,520
oh, I know what I started to
say, but to this day, you know,

1178
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:09,840
a book in my mind, a book is
different than a than a movie.

1179
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:12,760
You know, a book is you can kind
of get lost in a book.

1180
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:16,080
Even my books, even if you're
not writing great literature

1181
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,240
that you're like, oh, the word
play is so Marvel.

1182
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:19,160
You know, it's not going to
happen.

1183
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:22,920
I, I once heard a review of one
of my books.

1184
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:25,280
It was, it was a Morpheus Rd.
book.

1185
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:27,720
And I think it was a kid.
I don't, I don't know who it was

1186
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:33,240
and I, I, I know where I read
the review, but it was the

1187
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,520
review started out with this
book was really slow to get

1188
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:39,200
started and I thought, oh, oh,
here we go.

1189
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,120
This, this is this doesn't bode
well comma.

1190
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:48,080
But after the 1st 10 pages it
really took off like.

1191
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:51,440
What?
1st 10 pages, that's barely the

1192
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:54,360
title page.
This is a book.

1193
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,920
It's not a video game.
It, it's, it's not a, it's not a

1194
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:02,080
like, but, but that's what kids
want, especially kids and adults

1195
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:03,760
too.
It's not just it's adults.

1196
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,520
You've got to the pace has to be
so fast.

1197
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:09,200
So unless you're know you're
going to write, read something

1198
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:11,720
that's true literature where you
know you're going to settle in.

1199
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:15,600
If you're writing popular stuff,
it's got to be as fast-paced as

1200
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,160
a movie.
I've never realized, I've never

1201
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:21,160
realized the extent of the truth
of what you're saying until I

1202
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:25,120
read the first couple.
My, my great uncle was a writer

1203
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:27,240
for ABC for many years and was
part of the Writers Guild.

1204
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:29,440
And so he used to get
screenplays sent to him all the

1205
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:32,160
time just to hoping that they
would, they would vote for them

1206
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:36,000
for best, best script and he'd
give you, he'd give them to me

1207
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:39,520
and I and I'd read these awesome
scripts going, you know, I, I

1208
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:41,200
wasn't growing up.
I was in college when he

1209
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,840
realized that I was in teens
giving them to me and, and I

1210
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:52,760
realized the writing is so
minimal and so sharp and so and

1211
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:57,200
what I also realized they write
like there was almost like a

1212
01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:00,800
transcribe of a conversation.
You're not writing, you're

1213
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:03,200
transcribing.
I start to talk and you

1214
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:04,480
interrupt what I'm saying the of
saying it.

1215
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,920
Or, you know, you feel a great
emotion while, you know, while

1216
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:09,040
kids pissed off or someone else
walks in the room and have to

1217
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:11,200
abruptly change my intention in
the middle of my sentence,

1218
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:13,800
something else.
So you might be 3 words into a

1219
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:16,560
sentence and then just shift it.
And you have to get used to

1220
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:20,040
writing like that.
Yeah, I imagine because that

1221
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:22,600
when I read it, I was like, oh,
that's why I'm bad at this,

1222
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:24,600
because I, I, I, I, I, I'm
wordy.

1223
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,320
I I, I like the fans in the
library, you know?

1224
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,000
Well, well, if you're Aaron
Sorkin, you could be wordy, too.

1225
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:35,200
That's what the words are.
I'm sorry, just I, I, I thought

1226
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:38,200
you'd appreciate this.
I, I did, I did a podcast with a

1227
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:41,520
really interesting guy who was a
homicide detective in Arizona

1228
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:46,880
and a very, very sweet guy.
And I asked him, I told him, I

1229
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:49,920
said, one of my least favorite
things about stupid crime movies

1230
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:52,400
or superhero movies is every
time you have a villain, you

1231
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,080
know, you're, they have him in a
dark room and they say, why did

1232
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:57,120
you do this?
He says, when I was 12 years old

1233
01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:59,920
and he goes into a whole
monologue, you know, like what

1234
01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:02,800
happened?
And he says, I cannot tell you.

1235
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:05,360
And this is what he told me.
He goes, I cannot tell you how

1236
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:08,600
often it actually does happen.
Well, I'll ask them.

1237
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,000
I'm, you know, I'm sitting
across from someone that

1238
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:15,080
committed a crime and I'll say
I'm, I'm not judging him.

1239
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:16,439
I'm just asking, why did you do
it?

1240
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:19,240
Would you like what, what, what,
what happened?

1241
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:22,640
And he goes, so many people are
so quick to just tell the truth

1242
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:24,040
because they figure they're
caught, they're in trouble.

1243
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:25,520
That's it.
Like they're not thinking you're

1244
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:27,760
trying to game anything.
And at the end of the day, you

1245
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:29,880
know, you watch someone on
screen and they could be all

1246
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,160
tough when they're confined and
handcuffed to a table.

1247
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:34,439
And he said most people just
want to get out of it, just want

1248
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:36,760
to just want to, you know, OK,
I'm caught, I'm done, I'm

1249
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:38,080
whatever.
So he goes, what's the story

1250
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:39,479
goes?
Well, I really, you know, I

1251
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:41,720
hated my ex-wife and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.

1252
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,720
And then he goes, You have no
idea how many people monologue.

1253
01:08:44,720 --> 01:08:48,960
So I thought that was very
funny, but so it changed my tune

1254
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:51,560
a little bit.
Well, but that's an extreme

1255
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:53,319
example too.
I mean, that's, that's, I think

1256
01:08:53,319 --> 01:08:55,399
there's this whole psychological
thing with that where people are

1257
01:08:55,399 --> 01:08:59,520
like, I got to get this off my
chest because it's weighing on

1258
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:01,200
me.
Oh my God, whatever.

1259
01:09:01,279 --> 01:09:05,000
Or maybe maybe the person I'm
telling this to won't take pity

1260
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:08,920
on me and realize that because I
was abused as a child, maybe

1261
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:10,840
they'll let me go, whatever it
is.

1262
01:09:11,319 --> 01:09:13,560
Maybe.
But but you're right.

1263
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:16,240
But with normal conversation
like we're having right now,

1264
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:18,640
people don't speak in well, I
know some people speak in

1265
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:23,840
monologues, but it's like, you
know, yeah.

1266
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,880
It's like, stop.
All right, TMI, You got to stop

1267
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:29,399
now.
But yeah, you have to.

1268
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,000
You have to learn how to do the
rhythm.

1269
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:34,960
And it it with books a little
bit too, but it's a little more

1270
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:36,439
of a leeway.
You have a little more leeway

1271
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:38,760
with books.
But when you're actually seeing

1272
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:42,720
it for real on screen, for real,
you see it for real on screen,

1273
01:09:43,399 --> 01:09:46,680
it's got to ring true.
And people do cut people off

1274
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:52,600
and, and people do lose focus
or, or they leave the whatever

1275
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,680
happens.
So you have to be able to,

1276
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,880
That's why to be a good writer,
you have to be such a, a student

1277
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:03,400
of human nature and, and observe
people all the time and how they

1278
01:10:03,480 --> 01:10:05,880
do react.
I, I'm doing that all the time.

1279
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:12,040
And they use traits of, of
people that I know just because

1280
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:13,400
it's like, well, that's
interesting.

1281
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:18,000
The way they always interrupt
you and you're always, you can't

1282
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:20,320
get 2 words in edgewise because
they want to tell you about what

1283
01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:22,520
they have to say.
It's whatever.

1284
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:27,800
That's one example.
But in some ways, screenplays

1285
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:31,840
are more real than writing a
novel.

1286
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:35,480
Yeah.
It's like, I don't know if this

1287
01:10:35,480 --> 01:10:38,360
is a good analogy, but it's like
when you watch a a musical on

1288
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:42,480
Broadway.
It's like people don't break out

1289
01:10:42,480 --> 01:10:45,840
in song what you know what, but
this is not real.

1290
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:50,760
But in that genre, in that, in
that forum, you get it makes

1291
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:51,760
sense.
You go with it.

1292
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:56,080
With books, you can kind of give
a little more leeway on a

1293
01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:59,520
conversation in exchange or
whatever it is.

1294
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,400
With screenplays, it's got to be
more real.

1295
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:05,560
Yeah, it's.
A little bit less and less

1296
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:06,280
forgiving.
Yeah.

1297
01:11:06,440 --> 01:11:09,480
So, but then there are also
similarities.

1298
01:11:09,480 --> 01:11:11,480
They said it's all about good
characters who want something

1299
01:11:11,480 --> 01:11:14,400
and, and the interesting things
that get in their way to do it.

1300
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:17,200
So that that, that that's just
good storytelling, whether it's

1301
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:21,040
a a play, a movie, a, a book or
whatever it happens to be.

1302
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:22,520
Then then there are
similarities.

1303
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:26,280
It it was fun.
I, I had a, there was a couple

1304
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:29,680
years that it was, oh man, I
wish I could go back and do this

1305
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:33,040
again where I was in the middle
of writing a Pendragon books.

1306
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:36,960
So I'd write essentially A
Penndragon book a year and then,

1307
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:40,000
and that took roughly 6 months
all told, string it all

1308
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:43,320
together.
But then the other six months of

1309
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:46,960
the year I was making a TV
series called Flight 29 Down and

1310
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:49,120
writing the scripts and
producing that show in Hawaii.

1311
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:52,720
So it was like, so when I was
doing the show, just when I was

1312
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:56,760
sick of dealing with the set and
people and crews and actors and

1313
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:59,840
all that kind of stuff, just
when I was like, Huck, I get, I

1314
01:11:59,840 --> 01:12:02,120
get to sit in my cave and write
a book that I can do whatever I

1315
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:03,920
want.
Then after I'm like, I don't

1316
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:06,080
tear my hair out, I'm making it
back on the set again where I

1317
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,600
could, I could actually
communicate with people and have

1318
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:10,480
other things happen.
So that that was fun.

1319
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:14,080
And, and I don't know if this is
a good analogy, but if you ever

1320
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:17,520
played sports, I remember as a
kid, I remember there was always

1321
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:22,520
a, it's not so much anymore, but
usually when you're a kid, back

1322
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:28,040
when I was a kid, you would play
the sport that the pros, the,

1323
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:29,520
the schedule is the same as the
pros.

1324
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:32,240
You play baseball in the summer,
play football in the fall, you

1325
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,640
play basketball in the winter.
Not so much anymore.

1326
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:37,360
Now kids are like so refined.
They're playing baseball year

1327
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:39,160
round because they think they're
going to get a scholarship or

1328
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:41,200
whatever it happens to be.
But I always remember that

1329
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:47,160
transition period of throwing a
baseball to throwing a football.

1330
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:51,360
It's different mechanics, it's
different setups, it's different

1331
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:58,240
body motion and, and at first
it's just like what it takes a

1332
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:01,440
while to get.
Oh, OK, that's what, And that's

1333
01:13:01,440 --> 01:13:03,440
what it's like going back and
forth to be writing a screenplay

1334
01:13:03,440 --> 01:13:06,280
or writing a book.
It's like, oh, I'm, I'm doing

1335
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:08,040
this.
I'm taking too much time in this

1336
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:09,440
scene.
What what am I doing?

1337
01:13:09,440 --> 01:13:12,840
It's like, all right, I got to,
I got to start start cutting it

1338
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:15,000
down South.
There there are different.

1339
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:16,640
It's awesome analogy.
It's a great analogy.

1340
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:19,920
I, I, I live like that on a, on
a daily basis, more than a

1341
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:22,520
monthly basis.
So I work from home during the

1342
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:25,280
day and I go crazy.
So I go teach and then I get

1343
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:26,880
back from teaching.
I'm ready, I'm ready, I'm ready

1344
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:29,560
to pass out And I, you know, I
want my kids to bed and I'm

1345
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:33,480
like, Oh my God.
Like so so I, I, I hope to be

1346
01:13:33,480 --> 01:13:36,960
able to kind of stretch out my
tolerance for each each step of

1347
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:40,280
my.
Yeah, yeah, couple hours is not

1348
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:43,560
a good fact, to be fair, to be
up to here.

1349
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,400
Certain writer like myself, you
know, very short writer like

1350
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:48,640
myself, I just think in the
paragraphs out of time and

1351
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,560
that's the extent of it.
There you go.

1352
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:54,480
I really appreciate the time and
getting to me and getting back

1353
01:13:54,480 --> 01:13:55,640
to me and making the time for
this.

1354
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:59,560
This is really a ton of fun and
maybe I'll check out some of

1355
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:02,040
your TV shows, Reach out and see
if we'll do something else about

1356
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:05,160
that because sure, absolutely.
This is really tons of fun.

1357
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:07,480
And I thought we came on going
for a long time, but I want to.

1358
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:10,200
I know you.
Got good luck cutting this down

1359
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:13,840
into a listenable.
Oh, this is going to be, are you

1360
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:14,920
kidding?
This is going to be awesome.

1361
01:14:15,480 --> 01:14:17,480
Anyway, I appreciate the time.
Thank you.

1362
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:19,440
Great to meet you, Jeffrey have.
A great night.