Episode 100: Shrey Ghate

0:01 Welcome to another episode of Come Together. And we're live. Shrey, welcome back. I this is, I say welcome back. I don't mean it's the podcast because I'm unfortunately this is your first time, although I'm so happy that you're the 100th episode because I was waiting for. I wanted a really great guest for 100th episode. And you and I, and I think I was was I in the podcast that you did a couple of years ago on the don't worry about it one. I was. I was, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I was. I was so. So we haven't done a podcast.

0:42 Yeah, we haven't. It's been it's this I'm, I'm sad that it took me this long to be on on your podcast, but now that I'm here, I'm hoping that this this is worth it. Oh, it's. Going to be awesome. I'm so excited. So, so why don't you start by telling, by telling us a little bit about, you know, who you are, where you where, where you're from, where you live, and we'll dive into a dive into things from there. Awesome. All right, So I am Sri. I am A, I live in India right now, but I used to live, I study and live in the United States where that's where I met Fe or F Prime as I like to call him. That's right. What I live in Bombay right now. That's where I'm where I'm originally from and I did engineering at Rutgers and then went on to work for consulting companies like Deloitte and now I do consulting for like the Pharmaceutical industry with Sip Line India. Oh, you do That's.

1:37 So you started, you got back, you're still in consulting. I am. I am, for better or worse than in consulting. Do you, do you have to travel? Do you travel the same rate that you did in America? No, it's, it's again, I don't know if this is a net positive or negative because I, I don't have a family like you yet, but I don't travel anymore. Like it went from 100 to 0 real quick. I think they quick, I think companies wised up. They realized that we were not really needed after the pandemic era to be in person in a lot of these client offsite meetings and that they could save a lot of money flying us down and feeding us expensive food. So unfortunately, yeah, nobody pays for you to travel anymore.

2:18 It's. All. It's so sad, isn't it? It is like it feels like my wings have been clipped. They have been because you, you were travelling everywhere, right? I mean, it was when we met with Seattle where you, just you, you work, you'd be consulting wherever you just hop on a plane and just get to. Everyone and you know, that was that was a time people thought I worked as a, as a, as a steward or a pilot. They would be like. No way. Like twice a week, like surely or you're, you're working with United or JetBlue. But I was like, Oh no. You should do that, by the way. I feel like that be fun. I've I've spoken to a couple. I have a couple of friends that have been that worked on airlines and even if it was just for a year or two, they've absolutely loved it. I have considered it.

3:00 I have. But you know what? I think I I I have something called congenital tremors, which is like these tremors that happen in my hand and I have no control over it. It's nothing really. But I feel like, yeah, yeah, I got it from my dad and my granddad. But what that means is that I make a terrible steward. Imagine I am out to give you your, you know, kosher meal or pour you a glass of wine and I pour it all over you over so myself. Yeah, that was that. You know, I'd be like a hot spot for litigations and a lot of. Well, if it makes you feel better, if it makes you feel better since the last time you wait. Have you been to the states since since 21? No, I haven't.

3:42 Like it's it. I so travelling customer service here has gone to shit, so I think that even if you did spill over over anyone, you'd probably still be one of the better, one of the better service people, I would imagine. Yeah. It's a shame. Mm Hmm. So wait, how long have you been working for this pharmaceutical company? When you do consulting, what do you do for? Them so I contrary to what I used to do for Deloitte, which was more external clients, this is more internal. So I, I've been with their IT vertical as a, as what they call business partner and I'm essentially responsible for, for streamlining and keeping the ball rolling on a lot of their projects within that department. So it could be anything from an integration with called, you know, of a certain software, it could be managing databases, it could be automating certain tasks. These are certain projects that come up and all internally because you know, we're we're always. Trying to Are you doing the building yourself or you just no, no, no.

4:46 I, I, I'm, I get involved from more of like a project management standpoint, SO or PMO as they call it, and I'm more responsible for liaisoning between the different parties and making sure that everyone's talking to everyone and we're getting things done. So it's more management. Type. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, more management type. Awesome. Awesome, awesome, so cool. So I wanted to talk to you today because I want to talk to you a lot of it, a lot of things. But one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is I was talking to my wife. We have to meet a couple of. Absolutely. A couple of weeks ago, I was so excited for you to come hang out again. We always have so much fun together.

5:28 But I wanted to, but I was talking to her and I was it actually started with AI. Did AI did an interview with a doctor this past week. And she before she went to Med school, went to India for a year and and she learned about meditation. She learned about Buddhism, she learned about yoga. She learned about dietary health and food health. And and then when she said, she said that when she went to Med school, she kind of went with a little bit more of a broad picture than most people would, you know, typically have. And when and while while we're talking, I realized that I feel like America in our in our exciting, excited, youthful, perpetual state of chaos, you know, kind of doesn't pay so much attention to other older, richer and, you know, more established cultures and parts of the world, including India, you know, and that's when I realized I knew nothing about your whole part of the world.

6:27 So I want so, you know, then the war kicked off and I don't know anything about that. So I wanted to, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about, about first of all, you know, day-to-day, you know, the differences between day-to-day life and Indian America and maybe a little bit about the political scenario and the war and what's going on, the tensions. And if all that stuff sounds fun, there's some of the history about Buddhism a little bit. So where do you want to start? I feel like there's so many great topics to pick up from. I let's, let's start actually from what you know, your friend was talking about, because I think that that we can, you know, segue from there, because I think there's a lot of interesting points you brought up there with her saying that just being from, from India and being exposed to holistic medicine here.

7:13 It if I'm if I got it correctly, it informed a lot of her approach towards medicine once she got into Med school in the States, right? Yeah. Well, one thing that we can, one thing that we both concluded is that there's a difference between health and medicine, you know, and someone could be a healthy person and not receive medicine and someone could receive medicine and not necessarily be a healthy person, you know? And so she said that she felt she learned more about health and life and longevity in India. And then the Med school was more about the medicine aspect. That's that's it. Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting observation because, you know, that's something that we think that I think about a lot these days and maybe not so much from a cultural standpoint, but you know, when you went there was the Olympics that happened recently. I don't know if it's as popular in the US as it is out here. But if some, if there's something that you notice is that a lot of the bodies that you see in front of you, whether it's in swimming or it's in weightlifting or table tennis, they're very differently shaped.

8:15 And these, well, you know, we're talking of pro athletes here, people representing their country at the highest level. And it made me think that, you know, we have really brought down health to looking a certain way to to an aesthetic standard when health is so much more than that. Because here I'm looking at people who are pro athletes, who are sportsmen, who I'm sure are incredibly healthy, but they don't fit that mole that we, you know, have kind of begin, begun to associate with being healthy or being fit in the conventional sense. You know, when you think about it now, it's like being ripped and muscular or so like you quality composition. I don't. I don't know about that but but. You know what I'm saying?

8:57 We all know it. You know what I'm saying, right? Like we, we've, it's, it's been, it's been distorted to an aesthetic standard and where, where health is is far more than that. And it's not just superficial, right, Right. It's, it's not just superficial and it's, it's interesting to know there are a lot of these people that look a certain way, often die 30 or 40 from a heart attack because you know, they've internally they're, they're a mess. Whereas you know, the, the people with a little bit of a pot belly and you know who, who look like they enjoy life. At the same time, a lot of them go on to live to like 90 and 100. So it's there's, there's something to be said about how, you know, health is more than what we make of it.

9:43 That's a great point. That's a great point is that is that idea more heavily emphasized in India than it is in America? Because I know in America it's obviously all about kind of the superficial looks, which is why I think like Ozempic has taken off those type of drugs has kind of taken off because everyone could feel like they look phenomenal without having to put the effort in. But I, I, I feel like everything in life kind of has a category of either being the equivalent of junk food or the equivalent of healthy food. And you can get the junk food if you want and you could be full off that, but it's not really what's good for you in the long term. And I feel like there's always short term things and long term things that you can do. And, and I feel like, you know, like generally speaking, you know, living a healthier lifestyle would be the equivalent of healthy food, while just opting to look good with Ozempic or one of those shots or whatever would, would be a little bit equivalent of at least unless, unless you're trying to use it to balance out and, and, and, and kick start your own healthy lifestyle.

10:42 You know, a lot of people that are overweight, you know, can't, can't even start working out. And so they need to lose a couple of pounds before they even start exercising. Right, right. No, absolutely. I think, I think Ozempic is one of those things that it's it, it depends on how you wield it, right. Like if, if there is something genetic about your, your body mass problems, like if you if you're diabetic or if there's something that's, you know, outside of the control of conventional things that you can do to medicine. Yeah, like I think I think there is there is benefit to it. But now I think there's also this idea percolating in people's minds where it's it's a quick fix solution to to being all weight like it's just you stab yourself every what once?

11:27 A week, a month, and. Something like that, yeah. And, and you, you, you know, you, you lose, lose the weight. But as research is coming out, people say that, you know, there's a lot of side effects we still don't know about. And it comes back to this idea that there are no free lunches, right? You got to put in the work. You have to, you know, do something to to get something and I think we will be seeing more of that as this miracle drug, as they call it. Yeah, yeah. Is it as big in India as it is in America? Not yet, not yet. So India is an interesting problem, and I think this comes down to like cultural things.

12:09 We are a population that is predisposed to hypertension and diabetes because of successive famines that were orchestrated by the British Empire. That's something I learned very recently as well. So can you. Explain that to me a little bit. Can you give me some more detail about that? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So if you if you notice that there, there tends to be a very skinny fat mole that a lot of South Asians tend to fall in, it's not exactly obese, but it's not exactly skinny. You know, there's, you know, skinny arms. But that weight, you know, you tend to put on more weight around your waist and hips and midriff. And I think a lot of research has been done into this. And while there are certain lifestyle factors to it, there's also negative component to it that goes back to the British induced famines. So when the the British colonized India. What year was that?

13:01 It was. So it started sometime in the 1800s and you know, by, I think by the 1830s they had most of the Indian subcontinent under their control. And at that, and you know it, it started as a company. It was the East India Company before it transitioned to the British Parliament. And whether it was the East India Company or the British Parliament, there was always a, a very extractionary approach to their rule in India, the colonial rule in India. So the food that was produced here, the raw materials produced here, the the wells produced here, the textiles produced here, a lot of that was just taken and sold in markets in the West and elsewhere.

13:43 So that was that was that was kind of the nature of colonial rule. So these that's. Crazy. Yeah, Yeah, it was it was an incredibly extractionary process. I mean, people today put the total loss to the Indian economy if, you know, you had to compare it in relative terms to billions of dollars and, you know, we're still in a way recovering from it. When you think of India as the third world or, you know, why is, why is India like that or why is Pakistan like that? It's it's essentially a lot of it is baggage from that era. But coming back to the coming back to the famines and the genetic component of, you know, our Physiology, these famines essentially caused us to adapt because that's that's the nature of the human.

14:25 It's the beauty and the curse of biology that we will adapt no matter what. So when when you don't have a lot of food and you have to make do it little, the body started to naturally store more fat in certain places as a way to as a way to, yeah, overcome that. So that is how this board, this Physiology started becoming a thing in the South Asian population. And, and, and that's why now when researchers talk about obesity in the South Asian context, they, it's not just about Ogo and Rananda Chadmur more or, you know, eat less. It's also looking at this genetic component that has developed over so many centuries, decades. Wow.

15:07 So, so is there, what do you, how do you change that? Is it just a slow progress? Like it just takes a lot of time to undo it? Likely likely what it it, it's taken. So it's, it's, it's a product of so many centuries. I mean, not so many, but like at least 2 centuries and a little more than that. Because that's how approximately how long the British rule lasted. And even even into the first year, decades of India's independence, food was a commodity that was often at the risk of scarcity and not it it's not always due to a lack of production or crop vitality. It's sometimes, you know, distribution issues, supply chain issues, the lack of warehouses, etcetera.

15:48 So I think until something called the green revolution, which happened in the 1960s in II was a food scarce country. It was after the Green Revolution that we became a food surplus bread basket nation. And now, now we have enough food to, you know, send out to other countries that have scarcity. But yeah, the the the genetic imprint was that done was. That done through industrialization or is that done just by the sheer number of people there and just worked working in farmers and stuff like that? The Green Revolution. Yeah, the Green Revolution. It it was, it was actually done through American help. So that was an American company and researchers that got together and they created these hybrid high yield varieties of rice and wheat which was then brought to India.

16:32 So these high yield varieties were more resistant to pesticides and you know, they use more chemical fertilizers to improve output. And that is what really helped take India from being a food scarce nation to a food surplus nation. I see. And is the, so you know, what a lot of people talk about these days, especially with RFK and everything like that is the whole Make America healthy thing. And that we noticed that all the stuff that we put in our food has been poisoning us for, you know, ever. Did you did you get that from with America's support? Was, was, was a lot of that kind of it does. I know, for example, I'm sorry, just to kind of clarify the point, when my wife and I went on our honeymoon to Greece, we ate bread everywhere all the time, you know, and we didn't and we felt great. We didn't feel bloated.

17:21 We didn't feel disgusting. You know, if I eat a hamburger bun in America and this from the supermarket, I feel like a piece of crap. You know, I feel, I feel like it sits in my stomach forever. Is India's food cleaner than or is it also impacted by the American help in the revolution, the Green Revolution? So that's an interesting, you know, point that you bring up because I think a lot of American travelers seem to echo that sentiment that when they go to Italy, they go to Florence and they eat the pizza there, suddenly there's no gluten intolerance. Suddenly, you know, like, yeah. Isn't it crazy? It is crazy. And I think people have kind of chopped it down to the way food is grown. So, you know, I, I do believe RFK, I mean, not agree with him on a lot of things, but I do think he has somewhat of a point here that there is an overabundance of chemical fertilizers and genetically modified variants of crops that, yeah, we, we don't fully understand the effects of that are that are, I don't want to use the word, but but yeah, poisoning the, the food system, the food, the food and it and it, and, and you're right that that has been a criticism of the green revolution in India as well.

18:27 And, you know, there that there are instances of farmers in the areas where, so the Punjab, you've probably heard of that area. It's in northern India. It's OK. It's a very, it's a very agrarian part, which is where the green revolution was particularly centered. A lot of the farmers that, you know, worked on these, they started developing cancers because and, and a lot of genetic defects because of their exposure to artificial fertilizers and chemical pesticides. So, you know, if if that's what the people drawing the food for you are, you know, suffering from, there is something to be said about how it percolates into the the food chain as well. But I think in India, there's also there's this deals do it. There's you know, you can find organic raw stuff that is drawn and devoid of a lot of these things. So as long as you can afford it.

19:23 And I think this is. Is it expensive? Is it like prohibitively expensive or it's it's reasonable? It's it's relatively reasonable. It's relatively reasonable. Like I, I wouldn't say it's as it's like if you had to go to Whole Foods, Yeah, I think that would that would work out to be a lot more expensive. Whereas in India it's a little more mainstream, OK. Cool, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha gotcha. So what so tell me so so you went so you spent a lot you spent a big chunk of your life in America, right and amazing. You know, and, and from what I, from what I understand, it was you you not only did you have a great time, but you're also. I'm going to say this for you. You were very successful in your, in your endeavors, right? In terms of in terms of community, in terms of friends, in terms of education and work.

20:10 You kind of you kind of you, you certainly thrived in, in all aspects. I know that, you know, I mean, think, think about all the times that we had together and think about the mutual friends we had and everything we had, you know, and everything that you've, that you've gone through it. What's what are some of the biggest cultural differences between the Americans and the Indians that you've observed while you're while you're spending time in America? Some of the biggest cultural differences, OK. Or similarities or both. Or similarities. So I think, I think that we're both very, very capitalist in some ways. You know, like we we're both very, you know, all about very enterprising. We're very, let's find a solution to this.

20:52 There's definitely an aspect of that it expresses, it finds expression in slightly different ways, but I think we're both very enterprising people that way. What are some other similarities? I think what are some Let's talk about differences. Yeah, we don't like families, their relationships and stuff like that. I know that in America people don't. People kind of look at relationships like you're kind of supposed to wait off to have, you know, get married and have kids till like you're in your 30s at this point. Is that the? Is that the case in India? Not really, but it depends on who you're asking. So like for me, for the, for instance, the, the kind of socioeconomic circles that I inhabit, we, we, we don't really care about it.

21:37 Like if my parents never ask me about marriage, they really a lot of my most of my friends are unmarried. The ones that are married don't plan to have kids or, or, you know, it's, it's no longer and it's not no longer the burning issue that it used to be previously. Of course, of course, I will preface this by saying that we're a small minority of people that mostly belong to like the, the, the metropolitan cities, the, the, the quote UN quote elite circles. So this is not, this is not something that you know, you will, you will see across the length and breadth of India. But but yes, there is if you go to the urban centers, if you go to cities in India, you'll see that kids here, the youth here are not very dissimilar to American youth in that sense. Like, you know, people are willing to put off marriage. They're willing.

22:26 There's a greater interest in self actualization in finding your path and things that you know you would you would see resonate among American youth as well. So, so there, there, there's definitely a lot of overlaps there that. So, so I think it's so from what I observed in America, especially from, you know, my parents and grandparents era, a lot of it, I think a lot of today's, you know, desire for self actualization, as you put it, typically comes from a feeling of being like suppressed as an individual while they were growing up. You know, like there wasn't a lot of emphasis on, hey, who are you? What's your passion?

23:08 How do you want to live your life? It was more like, here's your responsibility. You're supposed to have a wife, you're supposed to have a kid, you're supposed to get a little house and you're supposed to work hard. And and then before you before you blink, you're 60. And then a lot of people rejected that notion and said, well, yeah, what about what about my life? You know, I only got one of these. So is that, you know that that's from my, from what I see, that's the American kind of perspective is that is that, is that similar? So again, yeah, I wouldn't say it is something that the vast majority of Indians would resonate with. I think there is a certain. But in the big cities, you know, yeah, it's more of like the like the upper crust of certain big cities, right, Like Delhi and Bombay, that Delhi is the capital city. Bombay is think of Bombay as a cross between LA and New York. It's like the entertainment and the financial capital of the country.

24:00 So, yeah, so like in our cities or Bangalore, which is like our Silicon Valley, there is there is, you know, a very significant minority of people who who do subscribe to this American view of, you know, self actualization and like you said, finding your path and and but is that. Building on like the pain is that building, the pain of being told that they don't have like almost a right to be themselves, or is that just because, hey, let's just copy? Americans or. Like you want to live a better life? It's all economic. So I might be quoting this completely wrong. Like if, if for you and your listeners, please feel free to like chat, you do this later.

24:42 But there's a cope that goes something along the lines of, you know, people work as blue collar workers so that their children can work as white collar workers so that their children can work as poets and artists. So it's like, you know, people often times these choices are not really choices. They're they are kind of imposed on you because that's, that's just the circumstances that you grew up in. You have to do certain things, you have to take on certain responsibilities because you had no other option. But tomorrow, like for instance, and, and, and we see this across the board as well, right? Like tomorrow, the, the, the sons of a very successful billionaire are not likely to also want to be to hustle as much because the the fire in the belly is gone by then, right, Because you've grown up, you have grown up in comfort, you've grown up in luxury. You and and that's a good thing.

25:38 That's the point of human evolution. Like some people be more. I know there's that. There are people that say, Oh, no, you, you, you got to hustle as well. You got to, you know, go through the same rights of passage. But I don't I disagree. I'm saying that's the point to to for every successful generation to be more comfortable than the previous, to have choices that I wasn't able to make or my and you know, fathers and forefathers weren't able to. So I think that's where it comes from. The self actualization is just a natural combination of growing up in more comfort in being afforded more choice. Yeah. And more free. Yeah, that's right. That's right. It's a very interesting point, right. I think it's I think it's interesting because I think that these days, the way that you kind of see people manifesting themselves or like starting their own businesses.

26:26 They're not starting like a mom and pop supermarket, you know, like they want to start up one day and hang on to their kids. They're starting, they want to be a podcaster. They want to be, you know, social media guy. They want to be, you know, they want to be an entertainer, an actor or singer, you know, and I think it's good by the way, I think I think it's really beautiful. I actually think that we probably need that kind of the way you describe like the burning in your belly. You I think that we need to have, I think that it's a company. I think you have to balance in order to be in order to really accomplish anything great. You need to have that fire in your belly. It's just depends on which direction you want to, you want to handle it. And then there's a lot less urgency when you don't feel like your next meal is on the line as opposed to like, oh, let me just do this podcast or not, you know, and OK, fine. So this week I only have two episodes instead of three, but my family is still eating, you know, like, yeah. So you it becomes a lot easier to justify and rationalize and you might not not even necessarily have the same kind of work ethic because you have the comfort of knowing that you know that not everything will be fine for when you do. Yeah, exactly.

27:29 Your head. Right. And you know, this is interesting because I noticed this even, you know, just to give you a personal example, in, in my life, like in in the USI was on an H1B visa and I or, you know, like an OPT visa, which is kind of like a temporary work visa students are able to sign up for. And I knew that I was, you know, I had bills to pay. I had, I, I had to pay rent in Manhattan. I had to put food on the table. I needed to pay my, you know, con Ed like party bills and what. Yeah, absolutely. Like, and, and, you know, going out at night, like, it was all a lot to think about. But. And so that makes you more cautious about how you tread in the workplace.

28:11 Like you, you're more likely to, you know, if if your boss wants you to work till 1:00 AM all five days, you will do it because, you know, you may grumble a little bit, but you do it and you have more of an impetus to do those things. But now I realize in India, like I'm a little more outspoken or, you know, I'm, I'm more vocal about establishing and maintaining my boundaries. I would be like, OK, it is 7:00 PM. This is not, you know, a burning issue. It's not something that needs resolution. Now. We can do this tomorrow. So these are. All things I love that. Yeah, yeah, these aren't but but I also recognize that comes from a place of privilege, right? Like that I, and over here, I know I have a roof over my head.

28:53 I, I stay with my family. I, you know, there, there's food. Like I know I can, I can survive. So I, I'm able to make those boundaries. But I know, so I, I think it comes down to that again, like how, how much privilege you have to, to, to rock the boat, so to speak. Yeah, yeah, yeah, It's really, yeah. It's really interesting. I, I, I don't think that it's inherently a bad thing. I think that the next challenge that we're going to have as like as a species as I go, as, as a world, as, as, as humans, the next challenge we're going to have is that we're going to have so much abundance and, you know, and comfort and well, and hopefully I listen, I hope, I hope for everyone, right that, that, that the question really will become how, how much, how disciplined are the individuals now that they are comfortable to put their all into something else? And that's going to be the next challenge. You know, the next challenge is if you don't have to go to work tomorrow and you don't have to, you know, answer that e-mail for work because it could be responded to tomorrow, then then what are you doing with today?

29:59 Are you, you know, and, and unfortunately, I think that, you know, and by the way, I'm not saying this because I'm anti this. I'm I'm really, I'm really, you know, but like, for example, you see more Americans smoking a lot more weed now than which I know that you are almost inherently. What do you call it? Like you can, from what I remember, you weren't able to, yeah, you could just consume and not able to get Yeah, it just didn't work for. You, yeah, I, I had to, I remember going with Ari the next day because I was, I was like, I need to feel this. So we went and got went to a dispensary and got like their highest dose edible. And I remember for 45 minutes it still hadn't hit me. And I was like, you know, well, maybe, maybe I'm just immune to this.

30:40 Thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, so, so. I think the people, but the people, the people that aren't immune to it are kind of just doing it as almost like, well, I don't know what else to do now. So let me just do this. You know, I think that a lot of a lot of people in America, as weed has become a lot more accessible and a lot more, you know, legalized in more states. I think that we're actually kind of just like sedating ourselves by just saying, well, I did enough today and I'm comfortable. So let me just, you know, sit at home and take an edible or smoke a Jay and then I'll be fine. But that doesn't typically translate into, you know, that again, that but that burning belly in your in your stomach sometimes, you know, for some people, they could manage it. But I think that by and large, we have to figure out a way to kind of incentivize and motivate people to to be their best, not because, you know, dinners on the line, but because it's their own lives. And you only have one of it.

31:37 And like, you should treat your own life seriously because that's your life, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Want to tell me a little bit about? Buddhism, Buddhism. So I don't know a whole lot about Buddhism. I will be be very honest with you. I can speak to you more about Hinduism. Oh, yes, because I'm sorry. I I, I wait. I don't know the difference between them. I'm so ignorant. No, I apologize. You know, in some parts of India, they're, they're, they're interchangeable. And you know that this is an interesting way to talk about them as well, because in, in India, the, the way Indic religions are, the the lines are blurred. You know, like if you go to Nepal, for instance, where one stops being Hindu, where someone starts being Buddhist is, is very blurry because, you know, in yeah, yeah.

32:24 Like in a person in Nepal. And this is not just Nepal. It's, it's in other parts of India as well. In parts of Sri Lanka too. You could be worshipping Hindu gods, but you can also worship Buddha. And you may have elements of Buddhism in your life and you may mix and match them with elements of Hinduism. This is, it's, it's the South and even Southeast Asia with Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, it's very common for there to be a little mishmash if these two religions because Buddhism sprung out of Hinduism. It was almost a reaction to early Vedic Hinduism and it was it was kind of like a reformist creed at that time. And would it?

33:09 Be fair to compare it to Christianity and Judaism? Or is that is that a bad comparison? It's it's. It could be. OK. That's a very. Polite way of saying it. And no, no, no, because I mean it, it really depends. There's no right or wrong answers here. There's, there's it, you know, like it could be one way because the Christianity did come out as an offshoot of Islam. Sorry of, of Judaism I spoke or Judaism. So it's, it's in that sense, yes, Buddhism did emerge as an offshoot of Hinduism, but yeah, for very different motivations. And but going back to to our original point, it's it's how we talk about religion here can be very different from how you talk about it in the West or, you know, in other parts of the world where Abrahamic religions are more neater boundaries. And like, you know, a Jew is very different from a Christian and, you know, you will do a lot of things very differently and you're kind of cognizant at that. But in South and Southeast Asia, those lines can be very blurred, very blur.

34:11 It's interesting you talk. So what's the foundation of Hinduism? What's the what are the foundational ideas that you have? If you were to summarize to someone like myself who knows nothing, right? And you, Yeah, how do you? How would you? Yeah, the so the main foundational text or I can't even say text of the Hindus because it's an oral transmission much like the Torah was for for centuries is the Veda. So the Vedas were like the Torah. They were these series of hymns that were divinely revealed, much like the Ark of the Covenant, 2 sages in like 2003 thousand BCE. And they transmitted it through an oral tradition for several thousand years before they were actually put down. They formed the corpus of Hindus, Hinduism's spiritual core.

35:04 So they, and then everything after that is like an interpretation of it. So they're they what? Every other strand of it has a different interpretation of the way it does and that and those are the different schools of thoughts that have emerged. Cool, gotcha. So there's a basic, so there's a basic oral tradition. As time goes on, there's different understandings as to what the tradition, you know, how that, how that manifests and how people understand it. And then and then different sects break off because so is so is Buddhism a an offshoot or a sect of Hinduism like that in that sense? So Buddhism, it rejected the Vedas. They had rejected the authority of the Vedas and that's why it was it was so revolutionary groundbreaking at that time because they said we don't believe in this and we're our own thing. But a lot of concepts there is there are all apps like reincarnation, karma, the.

35:56 So what are those ideas? What's what's what's Hinduism's relationship with with afterlife or recreation? What do we believe about the soul? What do you believe about lives and afterlife or previous lives? What do we say? Right, so reincarnate. So Hinduism always is, let me preface it by saying, a very optimistic religion. Even our villains. Even the worst person that you can think of, Effie, will end up in a good place eventually. It's just that he will take more lives to get there. So every birth that you take is a way for you to atone for the sins of your previous birth and to go closer to a state of the Buddhists call it nothingness, the Hindus call it Satchitanand, which is pure bliss and of the consciousness. Now, these are very esoteric concepts that I don't think we'd want to get into, but it essentially means that you go to this undifferentiated state where there is no happiness or sadness.

36:55 There just is. You know, it's not, it's, it's not like we dream of a heaven in the Christian or Islamic sense. We aspire to reach, to become, to merge into the supreme consciousness that permeates us at all times, but we're not aware of because of our earthly limitations. That doesn't sound very far from Judaism at all. I mean, at least from my understanding of Judaism, you know, that, you know, we have these notions of what we call like Takana, which is to repair, you know, like repairing previous, you know, mistakes and, you know, and repairing, repairing our, our either our own, if we, you know, we're reincarnated our parents mistakes.

37:36 And right. It's a kind of, you know, I get and I and I and, and there is that also same theme of like oneness, you know, the whole interconnectedness and the whole, you know, mass consciousness. Yeah, that I, I, I have such a hard time believing that all these. Religions, you guys have this concept called tikkun olam, right, which is to make the world a better place by the smallest of actions. So it's, it's in a way to repair it, repair it, correct. Thank, thank, thank you for using the right word. So I, I remember reading about it and I said, that's very similar to, you know, how we Hindus, we, we may not frame it as repairing the world, but you know, just being good and doing good into the world so that it, you leave it in a better place than that which you received it. So, so there's, you know, there is, there is that idea as well also, But I would say there's also a lot of orthopraxy in Hinduism, similar to Judeaism.

38:31 Like there's a lot of ritualism, right? And things like that, which can, which can get a little madding and dizzying, But because it's, it's, it's a very personal religion, as we like to call it, a way of life. No, you're not. You don't have to subscribe to all of these things. You don't have to do a lot of these things to be a Hindu. You just are, you know, it's so like, you know, you know, in Judaism, you have a lot of mitzvot. I It's mitzvahs that you have. To you got it. You got it? Yeah. So, but in Hinduism we don't have it's not a hard and fasting you may want you can do it. We call them sunscars, you call them mitzvahs. You want to do it, you can do it. You don't want to do it. That's fine.

39:13 You know, it's a lot more flexible. Interesting. And there's no, are there notions of like quote, UN quote repercussions or I hate the word punishment because I like to think of more consequences to actions. For example, you know, if someone doesn't invest in healthy relationships, then they're probably going to end up just being lonely, you know, And like, I don't call that a punishment. I call that a consequence of years of years of a particular action or behavior or mindset, right? You know, is that is that emphasized? To some degree, but there's there's, you know, like there is. I think Indians tend to be a little more God fearing like so I think there's there's a certain fatalism maybe that people do believe in that they're that it's a weird contradiction, right?

40:00 Like there's there's this great belief in karma and personal agency, but there's also this idea that. There, there, there's predestination. So, so in, you know, in in between that you kind of live your life like there's because you may, you may control everything in this life and in the here and now, but some things that happened to you were written because of what happened, what you did in a previous life. Now you obviously have no memory of that life. So, so it kind of accounts Hinduism kind of accounts of both things. Like for the things that you can control, you obviously should be doing more and, you know, do your best. But for the things that you can't control, we, we'd say, well, that is because you might have done something bad in a previous life.

40:43 And it's, it's, it's, you know, a way of making sense of what can't of, of the unknown. Every religion has a way of doing that. And I think in Hinduism, we attribute it to the the, you know, it's like a carried forward death from a previous life. So interesting, so cool. I, I think it's, I think it's beautiful. I really, I, I think that that idea in general, because I think what it does is it gives you license to kind of take responsibility. And then if things don't go the way that you kind of expect it, then you don't say, oh, how come me you say, oh, well, this must be the hand that I was dealt with based on my, based on the way that I behaved in a, in a previous lifestyle.

41:26 And so now it's my job to kind of rectify it. So it's, I, I feel like that still is a lot of agency. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's actually a nice way. You've given it a new lease of life in my own head. Because there you. Go it does it it does take away a certain victimization because I think that's something that, you know, and I see this a lot in the West, especially where people that there's a little bit of an I me myself, why me idea? But but Hinduism tries to, you know, give you a more 30,000 foot level view of your life and say, well, you know, it's not just you and it might be due to something that happened in a different life and and that's and it's OK, you know, but yeah, now think about what you can do about it right now. So I think, yeah.

42:09 So I think that that does take away a little bit of that following in self between the You know you Can Fall chapter. Awesome. It's so it's so cool. What's are a lot so in America in the West these days, and I think we're actually coming a little bit the pendulum swinging the other way. But for probably the last 1520 years minimum, it was almost kind of like a like religion or God was kind of like almost like a bad word. You kind of didn't want to say it or admit it because you kind of almost seem to disqualify yourself as someone that was less than practical, which is, it might be a little silly, but you know what? You can't. You're going to do what you could do.

42:50 Yeah. What's, what's India? What's the general population's relationship with religion? Are a lot more people religious believers or religious or a lot more people secular? What's what's it like there? So I'll give you a take that is a little, you know, harsh, but but, you know, it is what it is. Yeah. In India, religion is a little bit of an opium of the masses because see, we've suffered a lot under colonialism and then on and you know, right after independence, we're we're, we're, we're a democratic country, yes, and a very thriving, chaotic one. But the, the institutions that we see today, they have taken a long, long time to build and they're not perfect. So when people have no way to.

43:37 How do I put the frame this, you know, when the institutions that are meant to serve you and promise you the life that you deserve for short, when there's corruption, when there's a lot of red tape and and you're not able to rise up and move to the next level because of the systemic injustices, then you can you. Give me an example of some of them. What are some? What are some kind of injustices that pop up? Let's say, let's say there's a village in a part of India in the hinterlands and the, the, the district collector or the person in charge of taking care of it is, is, is thoroughly corrupt and embezzles funds. So you, you know, you were promised electricity or, you know, and Wi-Fi and clean drinking water next year. But because of the corruption in the system, because there's, you know, problems with people taking that cut bribes and delivering substandard work, you are not able to get 100% electricity or the water connection you are looking for by the end of next year.

44:47 It may take two years, it may take three years. And even when it does come, it may come with its fair set of issues, it may not be as promised. So I think this is one example of it, a very, you know, contrived one, but it happens that it happens at all levels. It happens in different capacities. Some states are better than others. It's not, you know, like India's think of India as a subcontinent. It's it's like the European Union. Every region has its own story. But I think it's some, you know, if we, if we had to zoom out, we, you can say with certainty that this is a problem that plagues a large cross section of it. And because of this, yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

45:28 No, please, please. Because of this. Yeah, I. Said because of this systemic what I would call. Corruption. Or, you know, corruption. A bureaucracy, Maybe even. Yeah, this rock that exists, people have to repose their faith in something, right? Like so where? Who fills the void? It is. It is religion. It is. And that is why you see so much religiosity. And in some senses, religiosity is proportionate to how destitute cute they are. Because the more you feel like you have no way, no agency over bettering your life, the more you're going to trust an external force that might offer you salvation. Perspective.

46:11 Such a thoughtful perspective. So when you see like, so when you see people being religious in India, it's not so much because, you know, they, they want to do it. Like in some ways it's a sad thing because they have no other way of, you know, making sense of this life. They they think that they. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Some people, you know, like in the US might or not just the US, there's people doing it all parts of the world may turn to, to drugs to, you know, to, to numb the pain and whatnot. Some people turn to, to religion. So, you know, and, and I'm, I am not a Marxist by any stretch of imagination, but, but in I, I, I will tell you that it does hold true to some extent in India, where it is a, it's a coping mechanism. It's a it's, it's a way of filling the void that the the systemic injustices leave in India because for so many people, it's the only way for them to account for whatever is happening to them.

47:07 Yeah, yeah. Well, I feel like that's always been the case with the religion, right? That's what makes it so, so, so powerful. And that's what makes it in so enduring is that there's so many people that kind of depend on it to make sense of their lives. Right, Right. Which by the way, I don't think is a bad thing necessarily, because I think that I mean, my understanding with, you know, when I say, you know, when I, when I say that I believe that Judaism is, is, is truth, right? I, I, I think that it's truth in the sense that it's a guidebook to live a successful and happy and meaningful life for almost anyone that wants to kind of cling themselves to it. And you know, it sounds the same thing with Hinduism. It sounds, and I know it's the same thing with with all other religions That right, you know, that that it's almost like it helps give us directions and helps keep us grounded to I always look at religion almost like the evolution of consciousness, you know, that like we kind of go beyond the, you know, our our primal instincts for something greater, typically community or typically, you know, long term investments that we wouldn't ordinarily think to make right.

48:10 You know, I guess evolutionarily or biologically, you know, out of just, you know, desperate need to survive just the moment, you know, absolutely, I agree with that. Interesting. So cool. How how do politics work in India? What do you think of Modi? Is that his name? That's his name I heard. I heard. I heard him on Lux Friedman's podcast you listen to. That I don't think I'll be very honest with you. I typically don't listen to podcasts. I have heard some of yours before, but thank you. I yeah, but but I, you know, I typically don't listen to podcasts. I'm more and even if I do, I this sounds horrible, but I, I read the transcript. I love reading the transcript. I'm more.

48:51 That's great. Like I like, I like reading things rather than listening to things, even though it might be the same thing, but but it's just I feel like I process information faster that way. But no, I I haven't heard the Friedman podcast. But yes, Modi is his name. That's the the Prime Minister been serving his third term right now. Unlike the United States, we do not have a term limit. Yeah, a term limit. So you can stand theoretically as many times. As you want, is it for? Is it 4 year terms? It's 5 S 5 year. Term cool I. See this is this is his 11th issue going into 12th tier into power. And what what do people in India think of him? What are his what's what's his is? I don't I don't even know.

49:38 I like does does American American left and right politics translate to India left and right politics or not quite? That's a very good question. So I, I, it doesn't, it really doesn't because now let's say Modi is the leader of what would be considered the right wing party in India because he's touted to be Hindu nationalist and all of that. But now when I tell you about our nationalist right wing parties, they support a lot of policies at the economic level which are very socialist. So right wing in India is more to do with social conservatism to some degree and not so much with fiscal conservatism if that makes sense to you.

50:21 That does make. Sense. Sure, yeah. It's like, you know, over here, a very right wing party like the one that Modi leads at the moment is notorious for welfarism, for competitive welfarism, as we call it, where people are giving out dolls of 1200 rupees ���1500 if you belong to a certain minority or if you're a woman that earns less than so much, which is, which is unthinkable in a right wing party and say, the UK or the US. Yeah, the yeah, the, the more. So, yeah. To go going back to your question, it doesn't need to map onto the Indian political context. So what? So what, what what's what's India's general relationship to Modi?

51:04 What do you think of him, if I can ask you? I mean, if you don't want to answer, you don't have to. But you know, like I don't want you to be able to do anything. I not at all, no, there's no question you can ask me that will fail. But it's I'll briefly tell you, India definitely likes Modi. That's why he's enjoying his 12th year in power, although that popularity has taken a hit over the years, but but he's still holding, holding on. I mean, it's it's it's not fallen perceptiously. My own views of him are far a lot more complicated. I generally have not had a very positive opinion of him because I I don't agree with his politics. I don't agree with. And and you know, when you see, when you don't like someone in their first and second year of power, it's mostly theoretical, right, Because you you it's things they've said it's things they said they're going to do that inform your opinions. But now into his third term, I, I, I can see what he's done. I can see the results of his actions. I can see the consequences of a lot of them. Like, for instance, there was a time when he banned a certain currency not in the Indian system. And all of us had to line up to, you know, turn them in before a deadline.

52:17 And this was ostensibly done to curb corruption. And everyone knows that had absolutely no effect on it. So there, there's been a lot of short sighted policies which or recently in Kashmir, where, which kind of has led to the the war we're seeing right now. There have been things that, you know, I I think could have been done better where he's kind of played to the galleries and does things just to win elections and you know, that are gimmicky, but not thought through with a long term perspective. So I think I think that is where Mike rouses with him typically lie. OK, that sounds reasonable. It sounds like it sounds like he's just, I mean, I don't know how politics work, how politicians work, but it sounds like pretty typical, you know, politics to me from from American Point, you know, like our like our new head of the FBI, Tash Patel saying, you know, for the last several, you know, like the last year or two.

53:15 Oh, well, you know, first day that I get in, I'm going to turn the whole FBI building, you know, the whole Hoover, the whole, the whole, the whole FBI building into a Museum of the Deep State day one, you know, and you know, and that's it. It's a great talking point. It's very cute. It's a great cat, you know, like it's, it got a lot of people to rally onto his side. But it's, you know, and all sorts of practicality, like, what are you gonna do? You know, like, how's that gonna happen? Right, right. And, you know, maybe maybe that's just the age we're living in, right? I feel like it's the age of social media and short attention spans like, and you have to do things that you sometimes have to just say crazy things out there to get people's attention, even if even if it's not the best thing to say and if it's not the best thing to do. So I think, you know, a lot of these demagogues, these politicians that we see today, they promise things that grab eyeballs and, you know, attention. But are they, are they in the best interest of the country? In the best?

54:10 Interest. How realistic are they even? How? How realistic are they? God knows. God does we. We know too, by the way. God knows and we know you know the answer is. Not we know, yeah. Yeah, it's not. And the answer is not super hot. It's not super, super realistic. It's true. It's true. I see. And so, so got it. So, so overall, he's been a leader for a long time. Modi's been a leader for a long time overall, generally speaking, obviously, because people, you know, there's a third term, people have obviously liked him to a certain degree, yeah. Is there a lot of competition or is the like, are there a lot of other political figures that could be really a threat to him or not really? So you it would dizzy you to see India's political landscape because we follow a British parliamentary style democracy. So unlike the two party system that you have in presidential style that you have in America, we have maybe like 100 different parties of course in in parliament. Coalitions and stuff like in Israel. Yeah, Oh yeah, Israel's a great example. So it's the, the, the, the system is very similar to Israel where you need to sometimes, you know, if you don't get the numbers yourself, you need to reach out across the aisle and form alliances and whatnot.

55:30 So we, we do have that. But in the 1st 2 terms, Modi had no need for alliances. They won pumping landslide majorities and there was, there was no need for coalitions. But as a sign of his, you know, slightly declining popularity and and a bit of anti incumbency, the third term was not as resounding a victory. He he had to cobble up an alliance with a bunch of people. And yeah, so the current government is more of a coalition government, but not not as not as much of A tenuous coalition as the one BB currently is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

56:12 I was actually talking. So I was talking to a friend of mine recently because I was complaining about BB to him a little bit. And he was like, listen, he goes, you know, I, I, I certainly don't love BB myself. He's like, but you, he goes but, and he goes. But we don't as, as Americans, we don't think about the fact that if the, if, if the Israeli government decided tomorrow, if one of the coalitions, one of the people that he'd agreed to come with, you know, it's a partnership with decided to leave, they could force elections tomorrow and everything could fall apart. And he goes and the person that's going to be, that's going to replace BB tomorrow is not going to be someone that's going to be more left-leaning. They're going to be far more, far more right leaning and far more aggressive. You know, and he's like, so BB's kind of has, is being forced to stretch.

56:54 And I, I, I, I actually do hear that. And I think it's a point that's really not made often enough in like in the, in the global commentary on the war, is that, you know, that if he if he acts in one way that really pisses off one person one day the wrong way, the entire thing could really fall apart. And then. And so I think that that should give people at least a little bit of pause in terms of their judgment. It certainly gave me a little bit of pause. But you know, on the other hand, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't still strive for for, you know, better and for, you know, and for as good as you can make it. You know, like I understand that's reality. But you know the whole what makes humanity great is that we dream and that we is that we aspire and push for greater even though we don't think it's possible.

57:38 Absolutely, absolutely. I, I think that is the beauty of coalition governments where you can't steamroll, you know, people with, with one idea, you, you have to go through a very consultative process to, to build consensus, to build this kind of consent for your, for your policies. And I think that it is slow. It is, it is frustrating at times, but but I think it's in the best interest of the of a country as diverse as ours. I hope so. I really do think so. Where is Pakistan relative to India? Again, excuse my excuse, my absolute negligence, but no. But where is Pakistan? What the heck is going on right now?

58:18 So. Yeah, geographically. So Pakistan sits on the northwestern frontier of India. So India is bounded by Pakistan to its entire W to China in the north and and then to Myanmar or Burma to the east SE. And then we have Bangladesh, which is kind of we, we surround it and Sri Lanka as an island to our southern waters. So that's, that's roughly the, the, the geography of India. But yeah, Pakistan is, it's the northwest. It's the Northwest, yeah. How far is that from Bombay from where you are? From Bombay, like Karachi would probably be about 500 kilometers, Yeah, like that's, that's like another post coastal port city that belongs to Pakistan. And they would probably be about 500 kilometers from me. So where Bombay is not incredibly far from Pakistan, but it's also not super close like what we call the border states like Punjab and Gujarat and Kashmir. So those those are the states that have a direct border with them.

59:25 OK, And what's this tension? How long has this tension been going on for? Is this war out of the blue? Is it has it been coming? You know, has it been boiling, simmering for a long time? What's been going on with that? How does What's been? What's the story with this? Let's let's draw parallels. I always tell my Israeli and Jewish friends that it's India and Pakistan is a divorce that went through, you know, like, you know, Israel, Palestine is a divorce that never happens. And here we have a divorce that actually went through. We had lines drawn and we said, OK, this is yours, this is mine. It was it was so clinical that when the British left, they even divided the Indus Valley civilizations. Excavations between our two countries so you imagine a 4000 year old civilization like you know that that drew out of our in this river it was also divided like these porcelain pots they go to India this.

1:00:20 Is that mistake? When did that happen? It was terror partition is is probably one of the bloodiest events in history. I think millions of people died, were displaced because the British there it was, they essentially drew a line through what was then undivided India. And the idea was at the heart of it was when the when India started developing a sort of national consciousness, it there was a section of Muslims that felt like because they were not the majority in the subcontinent, they may be lauded over by the Hindus who are in the majority. So they wanted there was a demand that they spearheaded for their own state, which was in its inception, it was supposed to be a secular state, but simply with a Muslim majority.

1:01:10 So Pakistan was supposed to be the mirror image of II was the a secular Hindu majority state, while Pakistan was supposed to be a secular Muslim majority state. The British under score Ratcliffe was who had no experience whatsoever in any of these things and and was seeing maps of India for the first time. He drew a line through areas of northwestern India where he felt like, you know, OK, this is a more Muslim majority part. We put it there. This is a more Hindu majority part. Let's let's put it on this side of the line. Sometimes he'd use rivers to mark boundaries. And he eventually came up with a bifurcation of our two countries.

1:01:52 So that is where partition happened. And there was a mass influx of people because suddenly you found yourself on the wrong side of the border. You're like, oh, well, that's the Hindu majority country. But I had that side. Oh, that's the Muslim majority country, but I had that side. So people, you know, caught in the emotions were at an all time high. People were rioting and killing. And suddenly, you know, you have people coming from the other side of the border displacing you and saying, hey, this is mine. You no longer belong here. This was a mess. It was. It was a colossal mess and a dark, dark chapter in our history. This this is the late 1800s, this. Was no, this was this was 1947. Very, very.

1:02:35 Really the same time as Israel? Yep, same time so. How come? How come I don't know anything about this? It's it's funny, the British talked both of us over at the same time. So just like how they threw the man screwed. Everything up, man, Seriously. You you see the maps of Israel and Palestine when they drew it for the Mandate of Palestine, when they're about to leave, it was, it's just squiggly lines, OK, This is going to be the West Bank. This is going to be Gaza. This is going to be the internationally administered territory of Jerusalem. It was, it was similar, like someone just came and drew lines, squiggly lines and, you know, and and then we were left to our devices. They left, they were, they were like, it's not our problem anymore.

1:03:16 Let the let them sort this out themselves. And just like you have the Israel, you know, like the Nakbars, the Arabs call it, or you know, the Israeli war of independence. We had something similar here as well, where India and Pakistan, shortly after this mass population transfer, went to war over Kashmir because Kashmir is the northernmost part of India and it had an interesting history. So the population of Kashmir is predominantly Muslim, but it was ruled by Hindu king. So in addition to when the British left India, there were a lot of princely States, and the princely states were given complete autonomy to decide whether they wanted to join Pakistan or India. And the king of Kashmir, being a Hindu, acceded to India. He signed something called the instrument of a session and said I want to be part of India.

1:04:07 And it was ratified and done. The Pakistanis were like, no, but it's predominantly Muslim. It belongs with us. So there was, that was the first war that broke out. And they send some irregular Pashtun tribesmen into the capital of Kashmir. We, we, we airlifted our soldiers into the city. There was fighting and we managed to hold on to most of it. They hold on to a little bit of it. So that is the first war. And what we are seeing right now is the most recent iteration of that same conflict. Why did it start? What did has it always been? Has it always kind of been bubbling almost like how you know what I guess how Palestine and Israel has been?

1:04:49 Or is it because has it been constantly just back and forth but with relatively peaceful periods? Or is it just kind of us leave it alone for now and then it kind of just blew up again randomly one day? It's it's, it's turbulent. It's like, I wouldn't say it's exactly like Israel Palestine, but yeah, there, there are periods where you know, that, that, that have been a little calm than others. But by and large that that area has been relatively turbulent. And, and I think the nature of the wars have changed because initially it was, it was, it was, it was purely a land dispute. But now what we are seeing today is also kind of a response to terrorism because Pakistan has, as a, as a matter of state policy, funded and provided resources to a lot of terror groups, not dissimilar to the way the Iranian Revolutionary Guard does. You know, the Houthis and the Hezbollah and Hamas and all of them, these are all, you know, if you trace the, for the currency, the money, it, it all leads to offices in Qatar, in, in Tehran and all of that.

1:05:57 So similarly, Pakistan as a matter of state policy has funded and chained a lot of Islamist extremist groups to not just cause 'cause destabilize India, but also other neighbors like Afghanistan. So, so in, in some ways America's also involved in this because back in the during the Cold War, when the US wanted to push off the Soviets from Afghanistan, they punched a lot of money into the Mujahideen, which was the local mullahs and whatever in Afghanistan because they were the, the, the resistance against the Soviets. But then after repulsing the Soviets, what did the Mujahideen do? And who was who was handling the Mujahideen? There was the Pakistan deep state. So the Pakistani deep state simply took the Mujahideen from Afghanistan.

1:06:49 They took those resources from there and they moved it to Kashmir because now that the Soviets were gone, they, you know, what do you do with this reactionary restive force? So they, they, you know, they've employed terrorist extremists like that to, to bleed India by 1000 cuts, as we call it. And, and it's, it's, it's happened all across the length and breadth of this country. Bomb blasts, kidnappings, mass executions. That's that's what we saw most recently in Kashmir. Really. Where, when, how recently I didn't hear again. I feel so terrible about knowing about any of this. No, no, no. I mean, it's, it's totally fair.

1:07:29 It's this happened on the 22nd of April in, in, in Kashmir. So Kashmir is why is a very Alpine mountainous region. It's considered the Switzerland of India. And in the summer months, a lot of people from the mainland tend to go there to holiday. And especially, you know, in the past few years, a lot of normalcy has returned to the the state and it's, it's no longer been as on the boil, so to speak. Yeah, turbulence. So, so there's been, there's been an uptick in tourism, which is it's biggest source of revenue. So there were a bunch of tourists that were gallivanting, having a nice day in these meadows in the mountains, when a bunch of terrorists swooped down and indiscriminately started firing at them. And they singled out all of the ones that were Hindu. They, they spared the women, they killed the men in front of them.

1:08:24 And they, they literally put a gun to their heads and said, well, if are you, are you Hindu or are you Muslim? If you're, if you're Muslim, recite these verses from the Quran so we know you're not lying. If not, boom boom, you know it. How many people died? About 28. Man, really? It was, yeah, it was, it was, it was a brutal massacre and so unexpected. So it was, it was a bright sunny spring morning and afternoon at that point, and people were just enjoying themselves, having a good time. You know, they, you, if you see pictures of it, there's picnic mats, there's people just taking selfies when they hear gunshots.

1:09:04 It, it, it was that sudden and unexpected. So obviously that led to a huge a lot of outrage in India and people demanded accountability. And while there is a side to it. So is that what got these tensions kicked off? Was this massive? That's what got this kicked off. Yes, that was that was the spark that led. Are these terrorist groups calling when I went, I, I, I've been trying very hard. It's, it's hard for me to do, but I, I really have been working very hard at it to try to kind of understand what the other side of in, in the conflict of saying what's the other, what's the other side's rationalization, justification or what's it, What's your story?

1:09:48 So Pakistan, at least what they tell themselves and, and what they try to sell in the world media is that these are local Kashmiris that are aspiring to independence and separatism, that they, they don't want to be part of India, that they're being forcibly held on, you know, occupied and colonized by, by the Delhi. And and that and that their support for these extremists should be seen as a as a as a support for freedom cycles. Yes, classic, but but you know, Kashmir is a settled issue. People, the people who they were Kashmiris were caught in this carnage as well.

1:10:30 And one of the immediate responses, first from local Kashmiris, because you have just killed their greatest source of revenue normalcy had returned to their to their restive lands after so long. They were finally, you know, welcoming tourists. There was the businesses were running. The economy seemed like it was making a turn for the good. And then you send in these terrorists and obliterate all of that. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's hard to reconcile that, right? But, but it is, you know, it's, it's just a matter of state policy. Now, Pakistan has always tried to prop up this fake resistance as a as a justification for its.

1:11:14 Behavior. Behavior, but but it it holds very little credibility and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Yeah. Have you, you know, I've been. Have you been to Israel before? I have, I have. I actually went as part of the David project was through hello. It was funny. It was almost like a like a birthright trip because I didn't pay penny for it and. That's awesome. How long do you go for? A week, 10 days. Yeah, it was about 10 days. And did you go to, I'm assuming you went to to the Old City in Jerusalem, right? I did. I did. So did you walk through the Arab shook there? Against the advice of my work group, I did. I did I Right.

1:11:55 So so yeah, the. Reason why, the reason why I'm asking you, the point I'm trying to get to. So, you know, I used to be afraid. My grandfather, my Saba, my mom's father, he died a couple years ago, but he's an amazing man and he loved Israel. And one thing, you know, and I used to be afraid to walk through the Arab, the Arab shook the Arab marketplace. And he's and he told and he's like a friend. And he goes, they, these guys just want a living. They just want to put food on the table. They just want, you know, to feed their families. They just want to live their lives and have their businesses. He's like, if anything happens to you, they lose their living for weeks or months at a time. No one trusts them. He goes so they're just so they want to live.

1:12:36 They want to get along as well as as much as anyone else does. And he goes, if you have a couple of, you know, extremists or young kids or whatever it is, you know, he goes, unfortunately, you have to keep your eyes peeled, He goes. But by and large, everyone just kind of wants to live their lives and do their things. And it really made me feel a lot better about it. And not only to make me feel better about it, but I actually felt more inclined to stop in stores along the way. And just that, you know, kind of look and see what they have and, you know, to make them feel like, hey, you know, we're working together over here. And I understand that you're just trying to live and I'm just trying to live. But, you know, but humanizes put it the, yeah, we need to do that. So we really need to do that, you know, and, you know, of course, you know, of course when things like, you know, mass, you know, mass murders or, you know, terrorist attacks happen, obviously, you know, there's, you know, there's no excuses.

1:13:23 But, you know, but, yeah, to humanize and to say, listen, like a lot of these people just want to live, you know, they just want to, you know, they just want to be, you know, so, so. And if you notice, if you notice Fe, it's always the, the, it's, it's always people from outside that come and start most of these troubles. It's now the people with the, with skin in, in, in the, in the game or people, you know who it's, it's all the radicalization always comes from these, these people trying to start proxy wars and, and instigate them. And, and, and you know, we know in Israel Palestine's case, there's so many parties that are trying, you know, that have their fingers in the pie. It's the same case even with Kashmir, where Pakistan is always trying to light this fuse, even though people there is no appetite for it.

1:14:06 It's a, it's a done and dusted. It's a settled issue. But they they will not stop because that's that. There's also something to be said about how Pakistan is not a a vibrant democracy like us. It's more of a military run democracy because the army views disproportionate power there. And these conflicts with India are the only thing that provide them legitimacy. They are. They're bloated, corrupt, rotten to the boat, and the only thing that allows them to keep up a certain image in the public I is is these manufactured conflicts with India? Is this constant needling? Is this?

1:14:47 Because it gives them something, it gives them something to put on their resume. Hey, we did this, you know, we're trying to do this for this sake, you know. And like, you know, first of all, who asked? You know #1 you know, the people, the people that are living there don't seem to ask if that's if they're, if they're, if they're living is based on tourism. And now they can't get that, you know? Exactly, exactly. And the Pakistani army knows this all all too well. They know that it's, it's not just about putting it on a resume, but also the only thing that will make them look good in the eyes of the public, right. These because they need a they need a, they need a villain. And India and these manufactured conflicts constant the the Pakistani people need to realize that the true villains are their own military who cannot allow them to, you know, that the country is backward. It's funny, Effie, when we got partitioned, Pakistan had the higher GDP per capita Pakistan had. Yeah, Pakistan got the more fertile lands Pakistan got. You know, we were, we were generous in some ways in giving them that.

1:15:46 And they they were, they were wealthier than us when we started off in 1947. By the time you know these in the last 10 years, they we've left them far, far behind in the last few decades. Yeah, they're. Priorities have been very different from us. So this is what the Pakistani public doesn't realize that the military is short changing them. It constantly props up this bogeyman of India and Kashmir to keep them embroiled in this nonsense of almost conflict. But it's not in their interest anymore. Yeah, I, the way, you know, I, I think, and this actually almost goes full circle at the beginning of our conversation, you know, the way that you can kind of get people to get on board with you is either with junk food or healthy food, right.

1:16:33 And junk food would be to kind of blame someone else and villainize other people to kind of get people to rally around a common enemy as opposed to striving for a common good. Where how do we get everyone to be happy, you know, and how do we promise a better life for everyone? You know, and and I feel like you can either run from a position of be afraid of everyone else and they're they're trying to get you as opposed to what can we do to get everyone to be happy and successful and comfortable and interesting too. Well, yeah. Interesting. Interesting. So what's the warp? So this mass, so the mass execution happened. And what was India's response? India, it, it, you know, this time it, it was a calibrated response. We didn't, we didn't go all hand starting out, but we, we, I think the first significant decision we took was to cancel a water treaty that we have over the, in this river that runs through both of our countries and say that we're no longer, you know, going to uphold it.

1:17:32 So the treaty essentially allowed for a division of the the water's resources. But now we're like, we're not going to hold on to it. We will decide how much of that water we keep for ourselves. We may build dams on the upper riparians, which is the upper parts of the river, and you may not get the water you want. So we're like, this is serious. Because initially, initially it was not. It was initially an economic response, not a military. Response. Yeah, it started with an economic response. And, you know, we as one politician put in blood and water cannot flow together. So it's, and I, I think there is a recognition in India, this is not the first time this is happening, by the way.

1:18:14 This is, you know, terrorist attacks like these and in some senses even worse than these have happened over a series of decades, even in Bombay. Bombay is perhaps the city that has suffered the most. And each time we have tried to be accommodating. We've tried, we've tried various ways, we've tried to sanction Pakistan, we've tried to isolate them in the international community. We've tried to put them on great lists in the financial world. But it it has not borne the results we've wanted. And I think now there's a recognition that it has to be somewhat, you know, like Israeli style. We need to show Hotstar and yeah, you know, get show them that it's it we will hit hard and in all senses.

1:18:59 So the economic penalties obviously were what we started out with and then they progressed. And this Wednesday we launched missiles in ballistic missiles at what we, you know, see as terror camps inside deep inside Pakistan. We we there were nine sites that the Army had singled out and on on Wednesday night, we just blew them all up from within our airspace. So that that that took them by surprise, I bet. Yeah, Yeah. There was suddenly all these videos of like, kaboom, like we didn't see that coming.

1:19:39 And I think we killed close to 100 and 150 terrorists, including the man. I don't know if you did you know about Daniel Pearl. No, Tell me about him. So Daniel Paul was a Jewish American journalist, a very famous 1. I believe he worked for CNN but I could be wrong. Who was investigating during the years of the War on Terror and etc. He was investigating links in Pakistans Punjab region. And it's it's over there that he gets kidnapped by Mullah Omar Sheikh and is forced to confess that he's a Jew on camera and that he will not convert to Islam and.

1:20:24 Etc. And that he you know that he's, you know, has time in Israel and and they behead him on camera. They. Did so recently, yeah. This was this was many years ago. It was I think at least two decades ago, but it was it was a very brutal, brutal killing of a Jewish American journalist that shook the world. And one of the perpetrators of faith was actually, you know, part of the, the terror matrix that we eliminated during Wednesday night's strike. So, you know, there's a lot of interconnectedness here because these these terrorists, it's, they don't only target India. They also look for Jewish targets.

1:21:06 They also look for Israeli targets. They're also active in Afghanistan. So, so it's a it's a whole, it's a whole apparatus. And I think the strikes that we did on Wednesday were were our response to them. Is there is there concern about nuclear escalation or is that just Western media blowing things out of proportion? There always is because we're both nuclear armed countries they have about. I'll be scared shitless, right? Quite frankly. It's never going to happen if you because see, I'll tell you why very logically, this is what I tell people. See, when the US and the USSR spot you will you guys were separated by huge oceans and you know, on different sides of the world, India and Pakistan share the same land, we share the same rivers, the same sometimes families, clans, you.

1:21:55 Can't blow one up without blowing both up. Yes, exactly. It is mutually assured destruction and it's not as simple as you know. So Pakistan has actually, you know, it's quite devious that way. It has developed and I think it is one of the only countries that has developed these something called tactical nuclear weapons. So tactical nuclear weapons are basically bonsai miniaturized nuclear warheads that they've developed specifically to Jews against Indian conventional forces. So because they know they cannot match the size and strength of the Indian military tomorrow, they're like, if, if shit gets hits the roof, they might launch a new a small baby nuke on our, on our forces on the battlefield.

1:22:36 So it's, you know, but The thing is with that. So that's more likely than like a full blown nuclear exchange. Yeah, Yeah. So that's that's more likely. So these strategic nuclear warheads, as they call them, are more likely than the more conventional. But the point is that even if they use one of those, the fallout will be on regions that both of us share. We both share the same rivers. We both like, you know, when Chernobyl happened, which funnily enough I had the privilege of visiting before I got invaded. No way. Yeah, I was in Chernobyl 20 December Jan 2022, just before the war. Wow, yeah. So you know what, when Chernobyl happened in the 1980s, there was a lot of concern in Western European capitals about nuclear fallout, like the, the winds taking the, the, the ashes to Paris and Amsterdam and Warsaw.

1:23:28 So what the the Ukrainians did was they dug up 6 feet of the topsoil wherever in the fallout zone and they they put them in lead containers to contain the radiation. Yeah, that's right. So that's to give you an idea about how you may, there may be a nuclear fallout in one part, but the effects of it, especially if you share a contiguous landmass, will be felt by you sooner or later. So in our case, because we're like neighbors that share so much you, you can't bomb one side without feeling the effects on yours as well. And this is this is just the effects. Of course, India has a policy of no first use. So we will never be the first ones to use nukes. But should we ever get the indication that you're going to use one on us, we have a policy of total annihilation. So we launch all of them.

1:24:20 You will be wiped out. Really. Even though it might affect India in the long term. Even though if so it's called, there's a, there's a fancier word in international relations that's escaping my mind right now. It's just 2:00 AM, but it's called, it's called, it's called, it's called, it's called like total annihilation or something like that. So it's not like we will respond in a measured way to a nuclear attack. If there's even a tactical nuclear warhead launched there as a small one, We release all of them. We we let the you know, gates open that there's no coming back. Yeah, war scares the crap out of me these days, man. You know, I mean, when what? You know, I, I, I about a year ago, you know, actually I, you know, I, I did I tell you I had a second kid. I'm sorry.

1:25:06 Did I tell you that I had a second kid the other week? No, I I know it's the first one I didn't know. Yes, I had a baby girl. I had a baby girl, right? Oh my God, congratulations. Thank you. Her name's Ariela, and she looks like an alien still, so we have to give her, like, another couple of weeks. But she's so cute. But yeah, it's really exciting. I'll send you some pictures after. But, you know, I was going last year. I was going. I remember when, when I ran when, when, when it really looked like we're on the cusp of World War Three, Right. Yeah. Between, you know, and I was going for a jog one time, you know, one night when I heard the news. And I was just while I was think jogging, thinking like how much it would suck that, you know, if, if, if, if Florida got bombed, right. And I who in killing myself to support a family and raise them and live my life and be productive and do the right things.

1:26:02 You know, I lose everything because of a decision that a, you know, because of a decision a political leader made that translated into destroying my life. I was like, yeah, I just can't. I can't. Like just that notion itself made me, made it hard to stomach any kind of notion of war. And I mean, yeah, it really scares the heck out of me. And it really makes me, I think I have a different kind of appreciation. Like, I don't think that you could still take sides and say that war sucks and shouldn't happen. You could still say that you have a moral alignment with one side or another. That doesn't necessarily mean that it has to escalate to people minding their own business getting blown up. And that's really, you know, I feel I've been feeling that really strongly.

1:26:50 And, you know, so when I heard about this happening in India, just, you know, just last week, you know, I felt very strongly, just like, oh, man, like, you know, it's so heartbreaking. And like to hear that, you know, more that's happening. It's just, it's so upsetting. It's so sad. It's so sad. Where we're used to it at this point and. That's even worse, right? Yeah, in some ways getting numb to war is. So when you think about terror attacks, I mean, in the recent past, they have come down to Maldives credit. He has been pretty good at ramping up internal security, these lapses notwithstanding. But you know, they're they're a feature of our lives here. Like for instance, when I have to use our version of the subway, it's not subway, it's elevated here. I have to go through Fe a metal detector and I have to go through a man frisking me on a pedestal with a point. Yes, so so.

1:27:49 And would you prefer that to not having that security on a big public thing like, like would you rather that? Yeah, because I know that I'm more secure, you know that there's. I think the subways need security. I've been saying for years, I think it's crazy that anyone would just walk down a subway, put $2.00 in, and just go anywhere they want to and be with the entire world. You know, like, it's scary. But, you know, like the kind of security that we have for our public transport, a lot of our public transport, our malls, our cinemas, they're akin to what you would see at an airport. So, you know, we, we have to put our things in a tray and the tray goes through a scanner. Then I go through a metal detector. And as soon as I emerge from the other side of the metal detector, there's a man or woman standing with a wand that will pack me down.

1:28:38 This is this happens every time we enter cinema halls, malls, shopping complexes, big events, stadiums, and of course, public transport as well. So this is the reality of our life here. And, and sure, it does take us a few extra 10 seconds. It adds an extra level of complexity and, you know, fast to our lives. But but I know that it is for our security and, and we live in a very volatile part of the world. So I'd rather spend those extra 10 seconds then then getting blown up. Yeah, definitely. Oh, man, Oh, man. OK, I want to ask you one last question. I feel terrible. I feel bad that it's 2:00 in the morning.

1:29:19 No. Don't be I've been awake for the last few nights because of all of this and I I mean not not out of stress, but I, I love collecting OS ink, which is like open source intelligence and how do you? Collect it. Where do you get it from? So there's, there's an app that I use very rudimentary called flight red R24, which shows you all the flights in the world live, like on the map, you can tell the call sign, all of that. So that's one way. There's there's, you know, certain Reddit forums, defense forums. So I, I lurk everywhere and try to like figure out the narratives before they hit the mainstream media. So that's that's like it's a little quirk where I had but but. That's awesome, don't you? Don't feel bad. Is the mainstream media more trusted in India than it is in America?

1:30:07 Because right now no one trusts mainstream media. So like everyone has to get their sources from like literally anywhere. It's so crazy. I don't think it's reached the American level, but there are moments and also there's something to be said about how it depends on who you ask, right? Like because a lot of the media houses in the past few years in especially during more these second term, they kind of got compromised in that they, they they switched tax and are completely pro government at this point and are very reluctant to criticize any of the policies that come from the center. So I think there's, you know, if you speak to people who voted for that party, they'll be like, oh, there's nothing wrong. This is oh.

1:30:48 Yeah, sure. Yeah, so, so you know, it's it's I got. You. Yeah, I got you. What? So I saw, I saw one of your stories. I wanted to and I wanted to ask you about it, about Trump, about Trump being involved in the ceasefire and that you didn't seem thrilled with that, right? Absolutely not and. It just, I would love to, I would love to hear your, your thoughts on that and why. It just comes down to our experiences with colonialism, right? Like we don't we've we've been up lorded over by a, a third party of a country that had no business being in our land in our involved in our affairs. So, so that kind of experience really informs your policies going forward as an independent country. So it has been a matter of Indian state policies, see, since the birth of this country to be non aligned and to, to chart it's own path and to not be in any block. And this, this is sometimes to our own detriment, right? Because if you, if you're not, we, we a lot of our allies are not as vocal about supporting us because we're not as vocal about supporting them.

1:31:56 We try to maintain equanimity. So the point of all this is that we, we generally like being independent in how we deal with things. And it has also been a matter of state policy for India to keep Kashmir A bilateral issue between India and Pakistan. As we, I'll be very honest with you, if yesterday we heard that Pakistan had wanted to do a ceasefire with us and it had come from the two of us, that's India and Pakistan, I would be a little disappointed because we couldn't book their ass more. But I take it, I take it but we do not like Western countries meddling in our affairs and certainly not people pre empting it and and stealing credit for it. And and I think there's also, you know, a certain dismissiveness in this current administration and the way it treats this conflict like all these are just two children. Get over it.

1:32:49 You know, this is not serious because you think about it. If if 26 people were massacred in Aspen in a ski resort, OK, one fine spring morning, how? Was it for that? Yeah. Like America, it, you know, it got enlisted so many Western countries that had nothing to do with 911 in its War on Terror. And we'll not get into the weeds of it, but but when it when it happens to one of you guys, everybody's supposed to stand up and take no and it's a big deal. But when it's with us, then it's it's treated with, you know, short shift and a certain dismissiveness that I've noticed in the tone and tenor of American statement.

1:33:33 Well, I would like to change that, quite frankly. I mean, that's why I think it's important to even learn about this from you and put this out because I think that it's I think it is relevant. I think it is important again, even if India and Pakistan keep it between the two of you guys, yeah, the words to still be aware and to still be aware as to the value and the history and you know what's going on, you know? Yeah, yeah. The complexities for sure, for sure, for sure. Is there, are there parts of of Krishma of Krishmere that are almost like religious grounds similar to the Middle East? Or is it, is it just based on like where you're going to be? And again, that conflict between the leadership and the and the and the and the population. It's yeah, no, it's not religious. Like I don't think there's any part of. It's not like the AL Aqsa Mosque or the Dome of the Rock. There's no religious significance to the land as such.

1:34:25 It's more of a ethno conflict, the made-up ethno conflict at this point, because the Kashmiris are are fine. Like there, there are questions of, you know, devolving more autonomy to the local government and all of that, which which India does with certain states, which, you know, lie on its periphery. But it's there is no burning demand for secession or anything of that sort. It's most of that, yeah. So it's more more to do with the land, but. So how does this so would this hypothetically be easier to resolve if there was a little bit less invested? Like what would it take to resolve this or what does it take?

1:35:05 Oh, that is, that is a great question. I wish. I wish. I we don't we we would have all night if we to answer that question right, That's what. We need, no, I'll, I'll just add one more dimension to it. And, and you know it. We're, we're Jews and Hindus. We ask more questions than we answer them, right. So I will, I will put one more thing to complicate your brain more. Kashmir is not just about the land, but it's also the resources because it's the it's where the glaciers that feed most of the waters that irrigate the Indian subcontinent lie. So you know. The So it's very valuable and. It is very valuable. So even right now when, you know, I mentioned that economic reaction that we took of suspending the water treaty, it's connected to that because we happen to be in the higher elevations, the upper reaches, so we have control over the flow of water before it enters Pakistan. So in some ways this is also a, a water wall, a wall of resources, which is only going to heat up with climate change and global warming, right?

1:36:04 So that's, you know, another dimension to it as well besides all the the land. That's no conflict, blah, blah, blah. So it's it's it's hard to see more like. That would be, but I feel like that would be the, the underlying thing to solve, right. Like if you, I mean, I, I think money speaks louder than almost anything. You know, I think that that's, I think people have come. I think we've come to learn that throughout the years. But you know, I think that I guess, I guess you think it just comes, you think that money or like a deal, a fair deal would just kind of make the whole thing go away. No, no, this is like, I think in these parts, I feel like in in the old world, as we call it, like you guys live in the new world. Yeah, people have ties to the land, right? Like it's like, you know, when you talk about Israel as well, there's, there's people that have been living there for years, decades, centuries maybe sure as well. There's people.

1:36:56 So there's no amount of money. There's only so much money you can buy. There's, there's questions of identity mixed into it. There's questions of nationhood mixed into it that that money simply cannot solve. Well, you could try. I don't know. I don't know. Let's see. Because if not, the answer is just to keep on doing this, you know, for who knows how long. There there are answers, but you know, it's it's also, you know, we may do everything that we see it. It has died down. Like if you if you saw a graph of the insurgency or the number of militant attacks in Kashmir, it has come down over the years to the creditors, not just this government but previous ones as well. They have been concerted efforts in that direction. But like I said, right, the Pakistan Army needs a it needs to justify its existence.

1:37:50 It needs to justify. Yeah, I understand. Right. It's so you. Yeah. Yeah, it's very. So we may do everything. Right, right. Like we may do everything right. The population seems to be enjoying the fruits of India's phenomenal economic growth. We were just about to see a fantastic tourist season. But but then now you have these external actors that have all these I'll intentions against you. So what do you do about that? Right? Like, do we balkanize Pakistan further? Do we do we hit them until they do a regime change? We don't know. We, we, we want a lot of things. You ask? We want a very firm response this time. But but yeah, it's it's, it's going to take two to tango, as they say.

1:38:35 Yeah, yeah, it does. It definitely does. I think I will leave you with that. I think I'll let you go to sleep, but I've I've never why is there 1/2 hour time difference? It's like my it was what is it 8 1/2 hour to be? Different we we had to be different, right? We were. I guess so we it's cool. I never heard of not. Be sane. Sheree, I love talking to you man. I missed you. Talking to you and we need to catch up more casually at some point like yes, where we're not talking about the the the end of the war, we need to be talking about your kids and your wife and. And yes, that's right. And Disney. Of course, of course, of course, of course. Trey, I love you. Thank you so much for doing this. Love you.

1:39:15 And we'll talk soon, and we'll do this again, I hope. OK. Absolutely. Bye bye all. Right, Bye everyone. Good night.