Episode 99: Jonathan Osborne

0:00 And we're live. I love this. I I never know exactly the proper way to start. You know, it depends what kind of conversation I'm having. So Jonathan, why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself to start and then we'll kind of probe our way through there, I think. Yeah, please. All right. Well, first of all, good evening. Good evening. It's nice to be with you today. It's great to be here. So about myself, starting in what year? Like as a kid or currently, which is what's? Better let's start as a kid, all right? Yeah, I'm interested in that. Where are you from? You from here? I'm from Miami Gardens, Florida. I know, Miami Gardens, sure. Which now is Miami Gardens, Florida. But when I lived there was just Miami, FL didn't really have the name. It didn't have the gardens either.

0:41 But I grew up there and lived in in Miami until I was 16 and we moved to Vegas when I was 16. Gotcha. Come from a big family. I have three siblings, two parents that's good, that are still still together, still now. That's nice. That's uncommon. Right, we all hang out together. It's so nice how often. Yeah. They live here now. They move back. They live in Davie. Oh sweet. OK, we now live in Hollywood, right? And we see them all the time. We saw them last night, for example. It's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. It's beautiful. Anyone or your siblings? They're close. They are not close. I have a sister in Ohio, a sister in Arkansas, a sister in Colorado and a half brother in Miami.

1:25 Wow gotcha. How often do you make your way out to each of those places or vice versa? I feel like they would come here more. Right from here, Yeah, distantly, probably twice a year. OK. And when we go to the other places kind of depends on what's going on. So we went to Ohio this year for my brother in law's birthday. Which part of Ohio? They live in Cleveland, Shaker Heights. Nice. Yeah, I'm familiar with it. And we'll go to Arkansas in this summer, probably not Colorado this year, but I'm good. Where are they in Colorado? In Denver? Denver. Nice. What do you think of Denver? That's lovely. It's. A cool place, right? It's a lot of fun. I drove cross country a couple of times and I always made sure to hit Colorado because I think it's like it's not from Washington. I think it's my favorite state.

2:08 Like just to. Go through Washington state. Yeah, I love Washington State. Have you driven that far? I have. That's why I moved. That's why I drove to I, I moved to Seattle for a year. I drove from New York and I and like, yeah, my buddy, I convinced my buddy to move with me. I told he was working at, he's doing coding at a big corporate company and he hated it. And I worked with my dad. It's a little family business. So I called him and I was like, if you quit your job, I'll hire you. I didn't speak to my dad. Yeah, but then my dad didn't want to do it. So I'm like, I, this guy's pop, I'm telling you, this guy's brilliant. It's like until he shows you split my salary, we'll just split it together. And, and that way you won't even notice when you decide that it's worthwhile, then you'll pay both of us, you know, regular salary or, or more hopefully if we create that value. It took like a month and 1/2 for that to happen, you know, but he did it.

2:59 And then for the next couple of months, we were four guys living in a house that cost 4 grand a month, where between us our income was like $75,000. We were just living on savings until, until, until we got more money. And then in Washington, in Washington, Seattle, Yeah, in Seattle. And so along the way, we, we drove, you know, so I drove. So I picked him up and I bought a 2000 and like 8 Toyota Prius with like 140,000 miles on it. And one of the cylinders actually wasn't firing while the entire job like this is burning, burning out through gas like crazy. And my friends like, oh, well, you know, it's all our stuff in the car. You know, maybe that's what it is if you got to Seattle and like, no, that car is that car is not good.

3:40 And then ended up getting hit. I got like 6:00 in the morning. I was going to synagogue and a woman makes a slow left out into me and we're both OK. Like get on. Are you OK? Stick? Yeah. I'm like, what was that? What are you doing? It's like you're not, you're clearly not drunk. You're not inebriated. Like, what was that? She's like, oh, I don't know. I just, you know, I shouldn't be driving this early. But I got tank ran for the car and I paid like 4500 bucks for it. So she lasted. She she did, she did a good job. And then I was like, I could do this for a living. You know, this is a great way to make a living. But how'd you like grow up in Florida? I thought it was. It was nice. It was the 80s, so I was born in 1984 and I thought Florida in the 80s was great.

4:24 That's all I really knew. My grandparents live close to us, all my cousins live on the same street with us. So it was like a happy. I mean, I now looking back on it, see it as kind of like a small town upbringing, except it wasn't a small town and we didn't know differently, but we had a very traditional family oriented experience. Yeah. And so my wife is from Illinois. She's actually from a small town village even. Yeah. And so. So we all live on the same St. in Miami. And her and her family, they don't live on this just on the same street. They live on the same land. Wow, That's cool. So that's like actual small town. Yeah.

5:04 Yeah. But our bringings are very similar. Sure, Very similar. The most important things are family, friendship, community, even beyond family. So our neighbors that you know, yeah, that's that's how I grew up. Our neighbors were family to us. Sure. That's how Gayla grew up. Her neighbors were family. And we're trying to create the same thing here. Yeah, me too, man. I grew up like that too. And my dad actually grew up in Miami also in the 80s. He grew up on 43rd and Pine Tree and he's one of six and didn't have a ton of family near them, but they were enough personality themselves, you know, and, and you know, the Miami Beach Jewish community from the 70s and 80s was very small.

5:44 And so they're also, you know, everyone knew one another and like as time went on, they all kind of branched out and moved on. But you know, like you like, you know, my dad's always still excited to like hear random names. My neighbor over here, 2 houses down his our grandparents are friends and we currently have kids the same age and he lives two houses down from me. So it's 4 generations of our, you know, Stern and Hershman's that are just like just friends and living like down the block from one another, you know, and like we're just talking about it this weekend. It's really cool. It's a beautiful thing. I feel like a lot of people don't have that, you know, degree his. Family was from Miami Beach. Yeah, it's. Awesome. Yeah. I mean, they, they, my grandfather was from Brooklyn originally, but after he did, he got, he went to medical school and then during I guess the Korean War, I think he volunteered, He didn't want to get drafted and he wanted to volunteer and pick where he was going to go and to avoid and to avoid getting drafted and sent abroad.

6:40 And they went in San Antonio for a couple of years and then they relocated to Miami. But that they've been there since, yeah, late 70s, early 80s. And I don't think anyone ever looked back. They, they still live there now and he's gonna die in that house. He loves that place, you know, like it's, it's and it's nice. It's beautiful. I used to, I, I growing up, I'd go to my dad's old bedroom and go through his stuff and like, see what he had as a kid and like, he found a scrapbook of old girlfriends he used to keep and stuff like that. My mom flipped the shit about but you know, like. Yeah, like pictures of. The yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like humor. I was like, this was Jerry. She was the best looking girl on the grade. And this is like, you know, and yeah, it's Polaroid just legit like that.

7:23 And I was like, she's like, what is this still here for? But what was what was moving to Vegas like? So I was, it was. So my birthday's in August and we moved in, let's say July. So I think I was 15 technically, but when school started I was 16 and. You were going to be a junior. Rising junior Rising junior and I've gone to the same school since 6th grade and I'd always lived in the same house. And my older sister is she was probably, she had just graduated from high school, so she was going to be going to school in LA and then my 2 younger sisters were like in middle school. So what was it like moving to Vegas? I was actually excited about it.

8:04 And, you know, in hindsight, I think that's interesting because it was in the middle of high school and I really had no problem just picking up and moving across the country not knowing anyone. My SO I think I had no problem with it for two reasons. One of my parents made it easy because I moved in the summertime before school started and like, joined my basketball team OK during the summer. Oh, cool. I met friends and my teammates back before school started. So that was huge cred my parents for that. I think the other thing is that my personality just kind of is open to change and I still have the same view. So at the time, to be honest, I didn't really think anything of it really. I had my my good friends in Miami. They're still my my good friends today. Sure, and let's go. That's so interesting, though, especially because, all right, when you were growing up with all your like cousins and everything all around you, did you think you were going to miss that or did you think like, ah, you know, that was fun, but like, let's try something new.

8:58 You're a teenager. What I thought and what happened was they'll visit and they did and we'll and we'll visit home and we do. How'd you like Vegas? What was that like? It's a cool place. It's it's a magical place in a lot of ways, but I think for a kid then this is like 2000. What year was this? 2000 Vegas were still New South. My high school in Las Vegas was only 10 years old from when it was built. Wow, cool. Compared with in Miami, schools go back decades and decades. Sure. So it was a modern city, very suburban. We lived in Henderson. Yeah. And. It's cheap. It still is today. And I and I didn't have a perspective of that, but yeah, we went from our house in Miami, which is a lovely, you know, lovely small home in a lovely neighborhood to two-story house. Crazy and.

9:51 My first job was at a rec center down the street from a high school, so. Did you work as you had to or because you wanted to? Or both. Definitely wanted to. I didn't have to to like pay any bills or anything. Yeah, but I would pay for gas in my car. Yeah, yeah, the fun, the fun stuff, the fun stuff. And like you. Know our parents never said you have to get a job they're more like you have to do your homework yeah. And I was a pretty serious athlete. So it was, it was, it was extra, but it was important to me to.

10:33 And you stayed for college, right? Working. You like working? Yeah. He's like feeling productive. It's crazy. I mean, it means that you like. Sure, you like. So what about you like the work that you do? Or you like the feeling of working and being productive? Or you like both? You like both? I like the work that I do, but if I didn't do this work, I would do some different work. OK. And at that time I was a gym monitor at a rec center and my job was to set the the cones up. And the. Kids camp to clean up and I was very social. That's another aspect of work that I like The, the, the connection with other people, whether it's your your colleagues or even the, the, the kids who come to the direct. The families were my part of my tribe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

11:19 I one of the hardest things about my job, even one of the best things and hardest things that it's completely remote pretty much right. So I do sales, you know, and I communicate with the warehouse 100 times a day and, you know, make sure everything gets that. I sell medical equipment, ultrasounds and patient monitors and stuff. And you know, I'm communicating at the warehouse. I'm dealing with customers, but everything can be done on the computer on my phone, But I was just sitting in my living room all day for 10-12 hours and I'm like, I'm going to go crazy. I actually picked up, started picking up part time teaching just to get out, just to like go and interact with my I, I was going crazy. I'm a very social person and it drove me nuts to just be at home with just, you know, the phone and A and a blue screen all day. You know, it drove me crazy.

12:03 Who? Are the customers. Generally private practices, the equipment we sell are refurbished. So a new ultrasound machine could run anywhere from like if it's a regular machine you see like in the movie and the TV shows or whatever could run anywhere from like 75 to 150 grand. The average cost of the machine that I sell is probably closer to 12 to 15. And I think that a lot of doctors are like, I think especially private practices aren't making as as much money as they used to. And actually one of the reasons my dad got into it was because it was pretty much economy proof, right? Because times are bad, no one's buying anything new. And in times you're good, there's always people that are looking to get a deal anyway, you know, and, and especially a doctor that understands that an ultrasound is an ultrasound and a pictures, a picture, they're not going to fall for that $150,000 scam. You know, they're going to say, well, I get the exact same thing for 20 grands or 25 maybe if I want to splurge. So why would I go ahead and do that? So it's pretty, I mean, it was, it was phenomenal of my dad that he did that.

13:03 But yeah, so that's so so and then sometimes universities, sometimes hospitals or the hospitals have a tendency. They just have unlimited budget. They just, you know, they got everything new. And but I was just going crazy being at home, you know, and it's funny because I'm very social, but I'm super shy about initiating a conversation. And, you know, once you give me that little space, like once you like say, oh, hey, what's up? Then like I'll pounce, you know, like I'm totally comfortable. But like, I could sit next to you for two hours and I'd say a word to you until you give me that initial like green light that like it's OK to talk, you know, so I'm not a door to door salesman kind of guy. And so most of my sales come from Google ads where I have a company that manages, you know, the people searching keywords.

13:48 I, you know, what pop up, we bid for it. So you pay $0.50 a dollar, $2.00 per click. So, you know, we come up to I think the first three ads on Google are always paid. The first three search results on Google are paid ads. Not everyone realizes that, but most of the time if you're buying something, you're not getting past the first three web pages, web links anyway. So I, so I figure it's worth it. And all my leads are hot leads because anyone that calls me has opted to go to my website, click call or get a price or, you know, you want to find out about what, you know, why this machine costs XY and Z and whatever it is. So I'm already getting that green light from the time my phone rings and I'm totally happy to deal with that. You know cold calling is exhausting. What's the company called?

14:32 It's called absolute medical equipment. So what do I Google to get you as my top link on the on my? Feed you can search refurbished GE ultrasound, refurbished patient monitor, refurbished DEXA machine. A lot of people are buying DEXA for health purposes now. A lot of people are trying to get their body fat, you know, composition and they're trying to get the whole body scans. And we, I think, thank God, we're really living in like, I feel like an awakening in terms of health, in terms of just, you know, people realizing like, I just can't keep living like this, you know, and, and it's great. I think it's a beautiful thing, you know, but most of the Duxes that I sell now are to gyms and to fitness centers and to holistic doctors and stuff like that.

15:14 And, and it's also not it's out of pocket. It's not insurance. So, so it's a cash business, which a lot of people like and then a lot of 3D40 baby ultrasound studios you go to the way we go to one of those. No, Yeah, I'll do they're. Freaking man into the regular. Yeah, so the doctor. So if you haven't, if you have another kid, let me know and we'll bring over one of these 3D machines and we could show you the baby in 3D and you could see it's you could see it's it's features. You see it's nose, it's eyes, it's lips, the shape of its ears. You see everything you see. And it's kind of freaky because song like yellow and like black and whatever, but it's cool. It's cool. Yeah, my wife refused to do it for this kid. So. So Vegas.

15:55 So you went to Vegas? Sorry, I I get distracted to be ramble. You went to Vegas and you and you love it. I do still love it. You still love it. I don't get back as much as I'd like, but I still love it. You still have like a life that back there that you. No, I've been gone a long time. Yeah. So I graduated from high school in 2002, college 2006 and went to DC for law school and went to Florida in 2011. OK, so between those times, first of all, I know you play college ball. I want to talk to you about that. Why did you decide to go to law school?

16:36 That's that's the the dream job. Like that's what I thought I would always do when I was a kid, so. Like. Prestigious. Like I would say if you asked me probably when I was 17, what are you going to do when you grow up? I would have said be a criminal defense lawyer or an NBA basketball player. Yeah. And you know, I don't even know if I had the the physical ability to be a super good basketball players, to be a professional. I didn't have like the emotional or mental drive to be a tremendous basketball player. No, I really didn't and I don't know why. Did you love the game? Actually talk about that because so Gayla was a soccer player and she played in college as well and she would have done anything to keep playing soccer, but she had injuries. I never really had any serious injuries but I I stopped playing at UNLV just like decided I was finished and then played again. Went to Alaska, had a year of eligibility. Left in Alaska.

17:34 You played. I did university. University of Alaska. Get out of here. Decided I was finished. I did Alaska. Like Alaska? I've been dying to get over there, actually. Did you like it? It was interesting. Isn't. It crazy. Alaska's not like at 21. It's not a did you like it kind of place. It's just interesting place and where I was was was so cold and dark. I mean, it was like. Death throw you off? I was going to ask that. Like perpetual darkness or? Light it was like my I have to think longer to figure out like what author I I want to like compare this to. OK, it was.

18:18 Like it was like. It was like my coming of age in a way. Sure. So. Because it was challenging, yeah. Like Miami, Vegas, I had difficult circumstances at every chapter, but Alaska was was lonely. So whatever, whatever I went through when I was a kid, whatever I went through until I was 2021, my family was always close by. Yeah, my friends were always close by. Alaska was geographically. Isolating. Super far and. It's a 5 hour difference too, right? I'll give you an example that's that still resonates even though it's been forever. Katrina happened while I was there and family in New Orleans.

18:59 My dad's from Louisiana, and it was like global news how terrible this tragedy was. I would see the newspaper that talked about the tragedy in New Orleans and it was like watching a movie. It wasn't real. That's how far away I was. It was like reading about something like in a zombie apocalypse film. And that is one thing I remember being so different about my life experience up to that point was it was geographically far. It was culturally far. It's brutally cold in the winter time. And this is metaphoric more than literal, but you can only see what's right in front of your face. What is that called?

19:49 Literally like you go outside and you're like trying to find the car door. Yeah, that's the closest thing that you can get to. Take that and apply that to life. Yeah. Everything else is like, I wasn't literally in survival mode. I lived in an apartment. We had heat. Yeah, of course. But yeah. At school, I could eat the cafeteria, but beyond that, it was really, really bizarre. And so I remember my sisters being like, you're a lot. You're a lot more serious of a person. And they didn't even mean like serious demeanor. They meant like, you're not like a jokester.

20:31 Like you actually have goals now? Since you got there. Since I came home from there, so I was there for one school year. Because I bet. I bet. Because the loneliness kind of forces you to confront you, you know, like who you are. You have to get, you have to deal with it. That's a fact. Yeah, it's, by the way, it's so great that that. I mean, I don't know if I would like envy that, you know? But don't you know, but but I please. Yeah, but I. Yeah, don't envy it and don't and and don't do it. Don't. Go to Alaska. Well, no, I've been lonely for a year. I've been, you know, when I moved to Seattle, it was actually, so I've had a lot of loneliness in my life.

21:17 And one of the probably the valuable thing I got out of college was I got a creative writing literature degree. The valuable thing was learning how to take the everything I was bouncing around in my head into my body, my guts and put it to what it put words to it, you know, And so when I'm confronted, you know, and so I learned that certain emotional weights, you know, when you feel the weight of anxiety, you feel the weight of loneliness or isolation that those weights actually have words that could manif, you know, manifest what they are and express what they are. And when you do that, you kind of discover why you are feeling what you're feeling, you know, and where, where it's coming from and who you are, you know, and I would never have had that if I didn't have that loneliness and having that.

22:10 And with that understanding, I from my, from not, you know, for sure based on my other, you know, I've been in a 2 1/2 year relationship. I've been in a year, a year long relationship that was very serious. My marriage would have been miserable if I didn't have the opportunity to really discover like who I am and like understand myself so that I could be eloquent and articulate about the big things in life that you got to go through with the spouse. You know, and even though it's really, really painful and challenging and difficult, I think that you kind of peel back a lot of the outside layers of child like childishness, childishness or childhood.

22:50 And like that really helps convert you into a man. Like you say, you said that you're much more serious, you know, not demeanor, but like you know yourself now, like you know what you're looking for. You know, it's amazing. I was. I still was. Figuring out what I was looking for, but I was different at 21 than I was at 19 or 20 for sure. Like that? What was playing ball there like? So basketball actually was more fun for me there than it was at UNLVUNLV was was an honor. I was I was very grateful to get to play there. And it was like, and we we were never like an elite program during that time. But that's because UNLV was still paying for having not followed the rules to become an elite program in the 90s.

23:33 So we were still probation and always being supervised by the NCAA. A lot of things have changed these days. But what I'm going with this is, you know, it was literally fireworks. Like there was a fire show really, for home games. That's so cool. And I'm so blessed my parents could come to every game at home. Yeah, I had one sister who was still in high school, so she could come when she wasn't doing other things. That's fine. Alaska was in America, but across the world and there was no fireworks. And it was a lot more akin to like a high level high school program in the sense that the only fans are local people.

24:18 And we actually had some like sold out games, but it was like the people from Fairbanks, AK. Yeah, it wasn't. Like sure you. Know. What are the people? They're like, They nice, really like just kind of, you know what? I. Can see I mean you. Go in different cities, you get different, you get different personas. You know, I mean like your wife's from Illinois if I can. Compare it having spent some time in the Midwest, Fairbanks, AK's like Topeka, KS, OK, if that helps. OK, so it's, it's, it's much further away. The the temperatures are, are brutal in the winter is -50 everyday -40 to -60 was the range so that people who choose to remain in an environment like this. So they're not the same as people in Illinois or Kansas or anywhere else Indiana, but their warmth. I think to be honest, I think in Hollywood we have a lot of simplicity.

25:17 Like people want to have give their kids a good life, they want to have friends, they want to laugh, they want to enjoy things. That's kind of similar to how Alaska was, but on a more extreme scale because it took a lot of work to have basic things, especially during the winter time. So that's how I would describe it. I think the people there were were great. They were great and I think no, nothing really extreme stands out to me in terms of highs or lows. Everybody was just nice, normal.

25:58 It took. Well, they had boots. On all the time like that coats. I could wear a ski mask. How do you prepare for I could. Wear a ski mask in a bank. Everyone did it right. It was. Mr. Osborne, how can we? That was a big difference. That was a funny difference. So funny. It's so funny. Don't do twice about it. Before your generation, a little bit, but young Buck was a rapper and he's in Gu and it was $0.50 in them. But on his album cover, he has like a ski mask on, but he's from like, Tennessee or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not where, right, But you could pull the ski mask on and walk around and nobody was suspicious of you. One, because it was cold, but two, because nobody's yeah, the bank.

26:45 Yeah, yeah, I'm at the crime rate I'm at. The crime rate was real low, right? You weed out the criminals real quickly. You spend 2 days in the winter here like nothing that anyone here has is worth it. They move. They move to Vegas, they moved to Nevada, they moved to LA, they moved wherever that the weather. Is last is not the place for shenanigans. Yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly. I had a couple of customers there. I really wanted to go. And when I was living in Seattle, I was like, I wonder how far it is to drive. It would take too far. The same amount of time as it took for me to go from New York just to Washington. So far Cross. Country is how far Alaska is from Washington. You know he. Drove When I moved there, my dad and I drove from Vegas to the Port of Washington, OK.

27:27 And then we took a ferry. That's a. That's a. Probably 16 hour drive. I don't remember exactly, but it was a long drive. It was long, Yeah. From Vegas to Port of Washington, it took us, we stopped reasonably. So I think it might have taken US 24 hours, OK or so on the road. And then we took a ferry 3 days and three nights. Wow to Haines, AK and then drove, can't remember exactly now it's been so long, but I think another day wow to Fairbanks. So that was interesting too, because one, we got to spend a lot of a lot of quality time together as a dad. Now, my dad was a, he's, he's retired now, but he was an engineer and like very much a busy professional.

28:14 It probably took us a week to get to Alaska and he was able to to spend that time to move me to a second college. Crazy. And I cherished the trip, but also Tom, I appreciate it, but I appreciate it even more now. And I, I think easy, easy decision for us, like if our kid, if our oldest, he's 4 now, in 14 years, wants to go to school in Ireland or wherever you're going to make that work. But that's something I don't take for granted. And the other thing about the distance was it was the summertime. And in Alaska it was the summer, but it was cold. And where I lived in Alaska, it was light all the time in the summer.

28:59 And then in the winter time, it's dark. Yeah. That's the other element of the. It throws you off. Loneliness slash. Seasonal depression. Despair. Yeah, it's, uh, it's tough. And it wasn't that tough. Like I knew I was going home in Bay, so it wasn't that tough, but still it was tough. Yeah, yeah. Because your our brains are wired circuit, you know, they're not wired to not have daylight for the very three months or five months or whatever it is. Like, yeah, I know in Seattle that people used to get seasonal depression from the from the from the mist. I kind of I, I understood that. And they would get like these UV, like these lamps that have like this extra high, like UV or extra bright or something like that. That apparently is supposed to be a little better to like make you feel like it's a little more natural. But it's I found that will help to mitigate which Seattle you could do, but you can't in Alaska is actually to go for walks and like just be outside and get that like fresh air and like really be with nature.

30:01 And like even though it kind of sucks that there's no light or not a lot of sunlight, at least you're out with like you feel like your whole system is resetting. But -40 negative 60. What do you even where you just, you just put on layer after layer after layer. Then you go to the gym and you take off layer after layer delay you just long. Johns sweats at the time. It's close with bag gear. Yeah, so pocket warmers. Pocket warmers, Little Yeah, those are great. Shoes in your in your pockets, in your coat pocket. But you don't. You don't go outside, really. I mean you. You go to the car, from the car to the gym to the grocery store, wherever you're headed, and you hope for the best, go for the best.

30:48 There was there were times. One time I had AI was out at night. I was going to see my little brother from the Big Brothers. Little Brothers. Yeah. Big Sisters. Big Brothers, Big Sisters thing program. His name is KJ You. Do that in Alaska. I did, yeah. And I was coming home from seeing his him and his family that lived in North Pole, AK. I don't. Even know what that is, but it just sounds awful. It's North Pole. It's a town near Fairbanks, OK. That north of it I bet, right? I don't. Really. Remember, it was called North Pole and it wasn't that it was colder in North Pole, but there were no St. lights. So I was leaving there and I was like lost. And I had like this is flip phone days, had very limited cell service. And I wasn't really panicking, but it was a fact that I had to find my way home.

31:39 Yeah. Because you don't make it if you don't. Yeah. And I don't, I don't remember being that panicked about it. Like, I remember driving around and being like, all right, let me. Yeah. You try to retrace your staff, but everything's like Frozen St. Everything looks the same. And eventually I made it out to whatever the main road was. Or maybe I saw a car, followed that car and they led to, like, where the highway was. But the reality was that you slide off the ice into the ditch, your car breaks down, you're finished. Yeah, tonight's the night. Yeah, you see God tonight because. Yeah, wow. It's crazy. Yeah, it's so that aspect of it is interesting too. Like in Miami, you you can see yourself dying any number of ways.

32:28 Sure, in Alaska you see yourself potentially dying a number of other ways, but there's no overlap. No, no, no, no. It's got to have an impact on the ecology of people that live there. It's got to make you a different breed of human being, you know, and I'm sure you know, for better, for worse, in different ways, you know, but got to be crazy. So people, I think it's been many, many years. I left there in 2006. But I think people, people look out for each other. You see a car pulled over, you stop. Yeah. You to check on them. Yeah. Here. You know, right. Like you breeze by. Yeah.

33:09 My other thing. About it picked up a hitchhiker really and I don't remember that it was that cold that night but we picked up a hitchhiker and like gave him a ride it's a different place it's different and I think humans are the same but the circumstances are so different that you have to there's. Different moral code, almost like a social code. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And you don't want to be the guy to ruin it for everyone. Like no one wants to be the guy that ruins it and no one else could hitchhike, you know, because. Yeah, it's if you're out on the road at night. And that guy, I don't, I don't remember being that cold that night, that particular night, but the night that I was coming home from K JS house. Yeah, that was crazy. I was all right. I didn't need a hitchhike. But if I did, I really. Yeah.

33:49 Yeah, yeah, I really needed a ride. Yeah. Wow. So you were in Alaska for a year? One school year. So I moved there in like the summer and I graduated from school. Actually, I finished did. You get your degree from UNLV. Alaska. Really. Even though most of your credits were from UNLV? Yeah. So I had to do summer school. So if school finished, will say in May, I did summer school from May to August. Yeah, to get over the threshold of credits. Yeah, that you need to graduate. Graduate from Alaska because I would have had to, I mean, but I had another year of eligibility. I would have had to go back to Alaska. Yeah, for another year. I guess or go back to UNLV, But it's what I did instead was I took summer school, finished at Alaska, then I would say UNLV for a master's degree in communication, Then I went to law school in Georgetown. Why did you get the master's degree? I had to get ready for law school. Yeah.

34:39 So you were doing it like while you're studying for the LSAT and you're, so you're basically filling time, but responsibly, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I had three jobs. Really. You know, doing. I had a job at the amphitheater selling tickets and picking up popcorn. OK, selling well, selling tickets, selling popcorn, and then sweeping up the popcorn at the end of. The night. Nice, nice. I taught public speaking at UNLV. Nice. Really. As a graduate. Assistant. That's fun to. To freshmen and my third job was at the United States Attorney's office in Las Vegas, which is when I discovered what it meant to be a federal prosecutor, right? So that that two years was preparation for law school. But it changed my life in the sense that I actually found my purpose, at least when it comes to being a lawyer, right?

35:24 Like, I wanted to be a lawyer since I was a little boy. Most of that understanding what a lawyer was came from TV. Sure, either like, like television shows or the news. Yeah. But working at the US Attorney's office showed me, like, what? Everyone calls the lawyers heroes. Yeah, so funny. OK, before I I want to, I want to get to the law, but who are who are your basketball heroes and what was your playing style like? What would you play That's?

36:08 Funny, I'll start with the the playing style. OK, do. You remember Michael Finley? Yeah, sure. From Memphis, Right. Mavericks. Mavericks. Right, right, right. He wasn't in Memphis ever. Maybe. OK, yes, but yeah, sure. When I was in high school, he played for The Mavericks. OK, that's the championship team with Dirk and. I'm not sure. OK. Anyway, yeah, Michael Finley. He played, he played the three. He's a lot taller than I like, Probably 6-8 is my guess, but he would shoot like from the wings. He was a slasher. Yeah, that's right. Occasional 3 point shooter, but I I thought as a kid that my game was kind of modeled after his and in terms of. He's a good player, he's fun.

36:53 I remember playing with him in two KA lot with with my younger brothers. He was drafted by the Sons, played for The Mavericks, the Spurs and eventually the Celtics won the championship in O 7 to to your. Question. There you go. Right. Yeah. So that's one of my benefits. I don't know why I'm thinking that so. I mean, I liked a lot of players but but. They're players that like what they did, like they, you know, they have like the way they play is like a link, like a like, almost like a personal, like fresh games. Michael Jordan was definitely my year. I had the VHS tapes, yeah. And when I was a kid, we didn't really watch TV during the week, OK, but I could watch the Bulls game if it was on. That's good. I had an exception for the Bulls games if my homework was done, sure, as a kid.

37:37 So Michael Jordan for sure. It's probably it to be honest, because. You weren't a huge NBA fan. You just loved basketball. You just. Couldn't I liked the Bulls, I liked Michael Jordan, not just his play. He was just an inspirational figure. He overcame adversity. His dad died. Like I think a lot of the narrative around his career is like a narrative that can motivate you in life outside of basketball. And I think that's what a lot of athletes these days, not that they're missing it because I think they're doing fine, but that to me is a different. Some people compare like this generation to the old generation. I don't compare like their skills. I think this generation's skills are obviously better, but they're like cultural impact is unparalleled.

38:25 What do you think? Why do you think that is? Storytelling has changed and access has changed. I think we we see too much these days. Yeah, it's better to see them as, like hidden figures that are like these heroes on the court. Yeah. Well, he he was a So to use Michael Jordan as an example, he was a hero on and off the court because like in the in the best movies, the hero is imperfect, has flaws. Yeah. Gambles too much, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that's what the press would say. Loses a family member and is like in the in the in the tunnel holding the the trophy, like boohoo, crying with his teammates, like on top of him. Yeah, yeah.

39:15 Yeah, yeah. I've never experienced that, Yeah. But there's a there's a humanity in that that everyone can relate to. Yeah. And that to me hasn't been replicated. Even if the players that have come after him, you know, if they played one-on-one, you know, 1997 athlete versus the 2025 athlete, sure, sure. The 25 athlete has the advantage, right. It's. Just obvious. Well, they were like they were, they were sweeping, especially when I was growing up. Like cultural basketball moments, at least, you know, one moment that I was that was personally devastated about. I was so sad. Steve, nationally, my favorite players.

39:56 I just love that he was kind of passed first, but could also do everything else. And so like, he didn't need to pass first, but he just chose to. And I thought that was really cool. And, and how good he was in soccer. I thought it was so much fun that he could have played either sport. Super cool. Yeah. And and then there's one year where it was one of his last years that like, he was going to like, he was clearly like getting older and like, and they're playing the Lakers. It was him. I think it was Amari and Shaq against the league was in the win the championship that year. They played the magic with Dwight Howard and Jamir Nelson and the whole team and and I think the sons lost in seven and like Steve Nash crying at that at the end of that game. And like I was like, this guy's not going to get a chance chance to he's not going to win the championship. The rest of it, like, also it's so sad, you know, but then also like when LeBron and Chris Bosh came to the Heat, you know, like that was like culturally shattering like that like was felt everywhere.

40:54 I feel like, you know, umm, I mean, maybe my own little world, you know, but it just felt like everyone, everyone was talking about AT shirts were everywhere, sweatshirts were everywhere, sneakers were everywhere. Like, yeah. And then I don't know, and I don't know whether it's me that I lost some interest in it or I don't know. Like what you said, like if there's less, if there's almost too much exposure, which it's almost like, you know, like the way like, for example, Marvel, like people are experiencing Marvel fatigue. There's two Every other week is a new Marvel, new Marvel movie and new Marvel. Show and a new hero. And new hero, you know, and like how many of them can you have that you're really, really invested in or attacked which. One of the kids invested in, yeah, Spider man. Spider Man.

41:36 To this in the same in the same in the same one time and I'm going to be teased. It is marvelous. What's this? Kids like it's Spidey. Yeah, he doesn't stop your kid. You sound like get to know. Whoever you want to out here at us, yeah, Spidey's the guy. Yeah. How many movies are there? There's probably 12 of them. So. So you decided you want to be a lawyer. What was the biggest, what's the biggest difference between TV and television and stuff in real life that you that you've experienced in the in the long world? I'm curious about that. Like what was your expectations? And then like, oh, that's nothing like anywhere near that. And did someone tell you that like, oh, this isn't like the movies? Or is it like, listen, like this is your job and you got to do this? And like, that's nothing what I thought it was.

42:18 Well, the reality is, for me, it actually is kind of like the movies. Exactly. Oh really? That's. Not that different. Because then you're going to trial, because you're going to trial. It's not that. Different than the movies. Wow. So nobody told me either way OK like the movies or it won't be OK. And and I'm not at the pinnacle yet, but it's actually like the movies. How so can you? Can you give me some? Examples. Sure, sure. I'd give you some examples. You were you were a prosecutor. Yeah, I, I, I did AI did a Google. I looked at your resume, but. Prosecuted cartel you did a. You, I did not know that part.

43:00 You prosecuted cartel, that part style. I thought. I mean, I didn't search enough. I didn't search. I start on Google. Really. Start on Google. Wow. When, where, what I'll. Tell you, I'll tell you all about it. So, so it's, it's not like the this was not like the movies. There is no camera. So a lot of what you do, nobody knows. That to me is really the difference. And so speaking for myself and others who have been either elite prosecutors or elite criminal defense attorneys, there's nobody telling the story of what you did or what you saw or what you experienced. That's what the movies for. Beyond that, when there is a movie. It's like that.

43:46 It's like, do you think, do you think it's because they just get really good information and do really good homework when they're making the movies and the shows and they're like, yeah, you know what? Like instead of just making up what we think it is like we're going to talk to like real great, positive. I think, I think a lot of times the the movies about these types of things, they talk to the real people, right? And it's so it's not so it's way more glamorous. Sure, you know, because whoever's, whoever the actor is is playing the person, but the storyline with some embellishments oftentimes is close to the truth. And so I would say I've had really two significant chapters in my career so far.

44:29 One was the prosecutor chapter, now is the private practice chapter. And to be honest with you, both chapters are kind of like the movies but in different ways. The prosecutor chapter, the the cartel part of it at least, which is like the last 2 1/2 years of it. I would be sitting in my office on a Thursday and an agent, like an actual American hero, like, will walk in and say, we think that, you know, cartel that will go unnamed in Mexico is planning to use a submarine to transport $50 million worth of cocaine from one part of the world to another part of the world.

45:27 We have an informant who knows about this and has information. We want to open an investigation. Are you interested? So they offer you the case. They're like, are you interested in this? Yeah. And are you just like you and I are? How many? How many, typically speaking, if something like the cartel, first of all, I'm sure people are afraid to take that case, right? Do people not want to get in the bad side of the cartel or they don't? We're not. We're not generally fearful of that. Like in my experience, the professional traffickers of drugs or humans or money launderers, particularly overseas, it's not part of the business calculus, the risk assessment. I kill an American prosecutor or agent like that's not, it's too much, it's unnecessary.

46:23 That's not the business. The business is to make profit and to avoid being killed or going to jail. So to answer your question, when that is brought to me, whether it's a literal submersible submarine investigation, which I had, or corrupt law enforcement overseas or just a cartel trying to move into different types of business in different parts of the world, I never felt personally at risk to, like, have this conversation about the investigation. They're not worried about me. Yeah.

47:05 The person that is actually their their enemy persona, non grata, if you will, is a person who's in the organization. They're telling you that's an informant. Yeah. That person is in danger. Yeah. But that person could be making a salary from the United States government to provide information. Does the government make it worthwhile or is it like the rest of the government, like? So worthwhile is relative. Sure. Depending on where you are in the world, yeah. So it wouldn't work well for you because we have an infrastructure and societal construct to where we can make a legitimate living. So I never really, I didn't really judge anyone that I prosecuted.

47:46 But I think people in different parts of the world, especially where like their, their government is like people complain about ours, right? But there's places in the world where like, there is no court. Yeah, there's, there's more than one place in the world. There's many places, right? Right. So in those kinds of places, people have to react to their their situation. People in America do too. My point kind of is like, it's kind of like the movies. It's to go back to. Don't you ask me so. So you so you got this case. Do they, how many people do they typically go through before? Like are they looking for you to accept them or are they waiting to like say like do they interview you to take the case?

48:33 Like how does that go? It's kind of like business and. And the same is true now in private practice. You do a good job and the rest, the word spreads, Yeah. And so it became relational. So if I don't know, I worked with, I worked with a lot of tremendous agents, but it would be, let's say FBIDEA, Homeland Security, ATF, those are the main ones that deal with like organized violent crime and drug trafficking. You just do a good job in one case and then they will tell their friends.

49:15 So it wouldn't be anyone. Nobody's interviewing anyone. It would just be like, hey, we have a lead on XY and Z at whatever stage. It could be very, very beginning stage. It could be we have a couple controlled calls. We've see some drugs. We're ready to prosecute In the United States and in the federal system. In order to arrest somebody, they have to have the permission of the Department of Justice. To make the arrest. To make an. Arrest and in order to get that permission, what do you need to present to them? They they come to us. Oh, OK. And they say, to give you a simple example, here is a a case where we we bought a crystal meth was big at the time. We bought a kilo of crystal meth from a person who lives in Hialeah, Hollywood or whatever.

49:56 Yeah, sure. Are you interested? I probably would have been. And so I can authorize them based on the evidence that I've seen. We have to get a, a warrant to arrest someone to go to a judge. Yeah. I don't make the decision. I make the decision to try. Yeah. The judge authorizes it. OK. And then they can go out and arrest a person in Hollywood for drug trafficking in Broward County. But in the federal system, the agents have to have a prosecutor sign off on that. The the police, local police don't They arrest somebody to take them to jail. And the prosecutor makes a decision after the fact, right about whether to actually pursue the charges. Oh, right. Interesting, that's the distinction. Between local and federal. Well, I'm going with this is an international investigation.

50:39 There's a lot more things you have to take into account. So they would typically bring me in or someone from my office in at the beginning and say we want to buy crystal meth from this organization. Here's what we have. This is what our informant says. These are the recordings that we've made. What do you think? And it's more collaborative from the very beginning. And So what I'm going with this is I basically would Monday through Friday, sometimes on Saturday and Sunday, have like, I'm not saying this like I'm saying this with all gratitude because it was really amazing. Yeah, I would be in my office and I'd have like some FBI agents here and then another group of FBI agents out outside and some DEA agents, Homeland agents, and we would be solving the problems of the world.

51:26 I never did terrorism cases, so not those problems, OK. But in terms of? See really are making a big. Difference drug trafficking and money laundering investigations. As far as South Florida goes, we're doing it, man. Wow. It was like the movies. And I would travel with them so we would have investigations where we would go. Are they nice? What do they like? What do these people like? They're regular people. Yeah, come to one of my parties, we meet. Them. Yeah, OK, dude, I'm in, man. They're. Regular. They're regular dudes. Awesome regular men and women with families who have who chose law enforcement sometimes after the military, sometimes instead of the military because they want to serve and they do it anonymously. They don't get any credit, they don't get criticism. And it's amazing stuff.

52:16 This actually dovetails well with something I think is probably probably interesting. At least Gala thinks it's interesting, right? Like, so when we met, I was a prosecutor, and I was never, like, worried somebody was going to try to kill me or anything like that. But I did spend all my time thinking about the kinds of things we're talking about now. What? Do you mean in terms of? Crime, like, yeah, I was. I wasn't worried for my own safety really, but. You're just thinking about. It I did spend all my time, all my time, really all my like waking hours, sometimes my sleeping hours. Everything become. Thinking about the most dark things you think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What does that do to you?

52:58 That were you down you feel like. It I I don't remember it weighing me down, but it but it definitely changes you because it has to. And I I like the job and I didn't even leave that work for that reason, But that's probably something. Some of the movies show it though, like some of the movies that show like the cop who's like the dichotomy of the cop, like training day is an example, like films right where the cop is like high level but also like totally corrupt himself or himself. That doesn't happen to most people, but it can because because you're like sure, cops more than the lawyer. The cops are actually in relationships professionally with actual criminals, mobsters.

53:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actual. Do you? Listen, you ever listen to Diary of a CEO? You know, you know that podcast? No, it's a great podcast. And he had on recently. I'll send you the link after the most corrupt New York Police officer. Like that was this guy's nickname and he had a drug operation going. He was cheating on his wife all the time. He was like, and he was like the, and I hear this a lot based on different podcasts I listen to, but like you feel like once you get started, you feel like you're already corrupt and there's just no going like you can't go back anymore. So you just have to keep going. Like you feel like if I tell anyone that I moved ahead, you know, I moved whatever amount of coke or meth or or, you know, whatever it is, if I tell them I'm fired. If I and I and I'm making 305070 grand a year and I just made 10 grand in a week.

54:43 Man too deep. I guess so. Movies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What did you think of the movie The Trials of the Chicago 7? Did you watch that? I. Don't think that is Yeah, I I didn't see that, so let I've seen the poster. I haven't. Watched it. Let me know. Yeah, if you if you ever watched it, let me know you think it's actually one of my favorite movies just because primarily the time period. It's based on the 68 Chicago riots during the National Democratic Convention and and the court case was whether or not the people, whether the riot was started by the police or by the protesters. And that was the premise of the movie. And it was a very politically based movie based on, you know, processing is the Vietnam War and everything like that.

55:25 But and, you know, I watched the movie and and then I read about a lot of the characters in the movie and that's kind of where I saw the the that's where like life and and cinema kind of, you know, you know, go apart from one another that like, you know, the characters themselves are romanticized as like better people than they probably were. Right, right. But but the case itself, I'd be curious like what your thoughts were in terms of that. But you'll have to you'll have to let me know if you ever watched that. I will. But OK, so you were prosecutor cartels D AM VI and how many years do you do that for? In total 4 1/2 years. The first couple years though, I didn't do cartels. It was like when you first start, you do less organized crime.

56:14 Do cartels deal in Miami a lot or South Florida? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they're not they're. Not associated like Texas or California or like the the states that are the states that are bordering Mexico directly, you know where it's the. So, so there's like I've been gone from that world for some years now. So I'm sure it's evolved even since then. But the base of organized crime at least for our jurisdiction, so in Miami, our jurisdiction was Miami, South Florida, but also the Caribbean and South America and parts of Central America. Somebody in New York or somebody in LA has jurisdiction over other parts of the world international. But for the world that we had jurisdiction over, the base of the activity wouldn't necessarily be in Miami, but the the product would come here.

57:11 And so the money would be generated here and then has to go back to the to to home base, right. So there's like AI don't know if you call it a continuum or there's a route for product in money out that is constant. It's always it's an economy. Yeah. So, yeah, cartels were busy here. But also like, because we had jurisdiction in other countries for crimes that touch the United States, it didn't necessarily have to directly impact Miami for us to. Be in law. US meaning law enforcement to have the resources to investigate and then the question would as a prosecutor be based on what we discover, do I have jurisdiction in the United States to bring a charge?

58:01 And if so, can I, can I bring that charge in South Florida? Because the agents would sometimes investigate in partnership with law enforcement from other countries, and the case would be brought in another country, right? If that country has police in a court. Which? Sometimes they don't, sure. So that's kind of. Like do you take into account whether the whether the when you say they don't have a court, is that what because it's a corrupt court, because they literally don't have a court sometimes or either either either, right. So what's your thoughts on extradition? It's your thoughts on like. Bring somebody here or bring somebody here. Either way, either way, like the notion of someone being in another country that is not their jurisdiction and like the other country shipping that individual back to there. It is what it is.

58:47 Gotcha. I've, I've, I've never defended somebody in an extradition. OK. I thought I wouldn't. I just never done it. And I've definitely extradite people to the United States where they were. Because they did crimes in America, or because they were being tried for their crimes in America? Or both. They did crimes for which we had jurisdiction to prosecute them in America, and we satisfied the treaty requirements for their country or wherever they were harbored to put them on the plane. Which is why it is what it is which. What it is, it is so so it's not. It's the whole. Time you're working for the government. That's alright. Yeah, that time.

59:27 So you're a government, You're you're a federal employee. Got it. And then you went private. Yeah. And why did you do that? January 2019. So six years ago? Yeah. 6-7 years ago. Wow. Yeah, yeah, probably 2019. Feels like yesterday, doesn't it? Not to me. Not to him, to me, man. Listen, dude, I remember 2019. Like, the truth is, I think that 2022 to 2025 is the biggest blur, you know, from when I got like, I think when I got married and like, my whole life became based on like, being in one place and like planting my roots and growing upward as opposed to discovering my place. I think the time goes by a lot faster when you're in one place settling your roots.

1:00:18 Weren't you 23 and 2019? I was 20. I don't know. I was born December 95, 2019. No, I was older until I was 20. I graduated College in 2017 and I was 20. I just turned 22. How old are you now? I'm 29. 2019 but six years ago, 2019. 20. 4 Whatever that feels like yesterday. It does. It does feel like yesterday. By the way. Dude, I don't know what happened. I don't know what happened to 2627 and 28. Dude, I don't know what happened to that 20232425. I remember.

1:00:59 I remember distinctly. I don't know. I don't know what it is, man. I don't know. So OK, so you went, you went private. So you so you let so was did you want to leave or you were ready to leave? I was ready. Would you ever go back? Would you ever do that kind of work again? I would, but as the, as the, as the chief, yeah, I wouldn't go back and like be in court. I'd go back as the leader. So then what would, what would, what's the difference in like day-to-day life if you're going back as executive as opposed to doing that? Historically, that would mean in a lot of ways I'm an executive now and you would have basically a significant role in recruiting. You'd have a significant role in executing the the US government's law enforcement policies. Really.

1:02:02 And it would be focused, though, on your jurisdiction, which in my case would be South Florida. So I'd be, if I was to do that, I'd be the chief law enforcement officer for the Southern District of Florida, which goes from Key West to Fort Pierce. Cool. So it's more you're not, it's not policy like you're not like a politician, but you're a prosecutor who trains prosecutors, who recruits prosecutors, who make sure that prosecutors do the job the right way. You don't really set locally, you don't set the priorities, but you enforce them and you interpret them. And relationally, your peers would be like the Miami head of the FBI, the Miami head of the DEA. So they're not going out arresting people either, but as a team.

1:02:50 You get bigger picture things. You're doing the biggest picture things with really like a focus on overall community safety, but really like the most important part of that to me is, is hiring. Hiring, it's really important hiring and training. That's what's that. Process like is it just that you have to just sift through thousands of thousands of applicants and? Your team does when I was hired. This is in 2000. I'm gonna get more rights, by the way. Again. Yeah. Cool, I was hired in 2014. If I remember correctly they were like 2000 applicants and like five of us were hired.

1:03:32 Wow, what stood out about your resume that got you there? Was it your grades? Was it your extracurriculars? Was it your? Honest, to be honest, I think my resume was cool, but there's so many applicants that it wasn't really my resume. It was a mentor of mine who is Angel. Angel, when I told him that I applied, actually directly reached out to the person who at that time had the job that I'm telling you about. OK, Willie. OK, so my mentor, my brother now, but Willie. Angel texted Willie and said I had lunch with the kid that you should meet. Wow. And. How did you meet? How did you meet Angel? Angel worked with me at the time.

1:04:12 OK, Gotcha. Yeah. And he had been, he had been a prosecutor before. And we had lunch and I asked him for advice and he said I advised you to send me your resume and let me send some text messages because wow. Good for you man, that. Applicants that, yeah, I don't think they would have even seen my resume just because there's so many people. Sure, sure, sure. So the process then, I think it's very similar now, although it's been, you know, 10 years or so. You have like 3 rounds of interviews and then in the third round you interview with the leadership team. So what stood out? I think really more than more than my like resume, it was really my commitment to serving the community, which I've always had. But at the time it wasn't like a second year lawyer. So I didn't really know how to do the courtroom things that I do now.

1:05:01 But I I could prove that like I was really committed to to Miami. Like I can prove that that that's beautiful. And that stood out. And at the time, that's what that was a that was one of the things that the office was looking for. And that's how I got the job. And there are, there are some people who get the job for that reason. There are some people who get the job for because they have the highest GPA because they have, you know, like if I was to apply, not me, but a person like me was applied. Now it could be because you actually have trial experience and you can actually go to court and win without being trained. Why have you be trained? Yeah, yeah. And I bet they take that into consideration, right?

1:05:41 Whether or not you need to be trained and all that. See, I needed to be trained. You needed to. When you're trained, you're trained in court, you're trained privately behind, closed. Doors both both so you get trained in court and for the for the Department of Justice prosecutors. There's a school. You go to school in South Carolina. South Carolina, two weeks. Two weeks 2, weeks 2. Weeks trial school. Wow, really? It's called trial advocacy. Some trial BC program from the nature. Can what I feel like this might be a crazy question. I hope it's not. Does being a lawyer both as a prosecutor and a defendant, does that give you like, what are the flaws in the legal system?

1:06:28 Do you like if somebody, if you if you meet someone like this guy was convicted of XY and Z, Do you think that guy had a crappy lawyer? You think that guy's a criminal? Like how do you differentiate between like where the law starts and where like the criminal intent and behaviour and who the person is at, you know, codes? That's a great question. Because like, so much is like, so much is like in the nuance and so much is like, not just about whether or not like it's beyond. It's beyond a reasonable doubt, right? Like that's the standard. That's the standard, yeah. So I'll answer, I'll answer the question literally and then I'll like. Elaborate. Yeah, then I'll poeticize a little bit. So when I meet somebody who has been convicted, I don't really think anything. You just think, oh, interesting, like that's just information that you have.

1:07:17 I don't think anything there's new information. Yeah, like, all right. It doesn't, it doesn't compute anything in terms of how they ended up there in my mind because, and this goes to I think the broader question that you're asking, because in my mind you can end up there so many different ways and I have no way to know which way it was like the bad lawyer maybe. Or a great lawyer. Maybe, right. Like maybe the bad lawyer, but as a as a black man who is a corporate defense lawyer who was a prosecutor, who was a black boy, Yeah.

1:08:05 And you can end up talking to the police when you've done nothing wrong. Yeah. It could be because somebody that you know has done something wrong, which I've been in that situation before. It can be because you've been mistaken for someone. I've been in that situation before. Really. It could be because you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. I've been in that situation before. But to me, fundamentally, the way I've avoided, avoided negative outcomes from all three of those really goes back to family and goes back to upbringing and self respect.

1:08:45 And ultimately, this is not something I probably had when I was super young, but as I got older was like a respect for the power of law enforcement, right? So this is a very narrow example. It's a narrow example, but it's, you know, it's truly genuine to say if a person stacks because of the neighborhood they live in, the way they're taught to communicate with authority because they they lack respect for whatever reason for themselves, you could end up saying the wrong thing and be arrested for that.

1:09:34 Yeah, that's, that's like 1 extreme, right. The other extreme is you could actually be a criminal. I think another extreme is you could be a situational criminal. So you can be a criminal who has like a who is has like a who's an immoral predator. Those exist. Sure. You could be a a criminal of like an opportunistic criminal of greed. Yeah, there's all these different ways this can all shake out. But I guess what I'm going with this is before you get to the bad criminal defense attorney, one of these things had to have had to perceive that, right? One of these stories, right? Had to happen before you needed a criminal defense lawyer who could be good or bad, right?

1:10:20 You could also be innocent and end up with the criminal defense attorney. Yeah, that's another path that's possible. All this to say, when I meet somebody and they've been to jail or they got convicted, I don't know which of these pasts brought them. There. Yeah, that. So that's what I'm asking. There's enough room. There's so many different little, like, cracks for people to just like, slip in along the way of getting convicted, you know? Some slip in. Some. Hey, buddy, some really are. Some are bad, yeah. Bad people, Some are not bad people, but they made a bad decision. Yeah, some are not bad people. They had really bad friends around them. All these things are possible at the same time. And I don't know who's who.

1:11:04 When I was a prosecutor, my job was to figure out who's who. It's not really my job now. So I don't really know day-to-day. If I meet somebody, I have no idea how they end up where they are because I'm not involved anymore. Yeah. And most of my work is, is corporate. So like, I mean, I guess you have an occasional CEO who's like truly like truly diabolical businessman. But most, most of my clients had a business idea and rely on their team. And when we get the subpoena, we have to deal with it. But most of the time it whatever causes us to have to deal with the government wasn't most of the time wasn't the result of like some corrupt case intent.

1:11:54 Yeah. Yeah, I understand. It happens. Yeah, from my practice, most of the time that isn't what predicated right us meeting with. But you but but your but your experience has LED you to understand that when you meet someone who has a record, you meet someone who went to jail or convicted. Whatever it is, it doesn't necessarily mean so much about who they are. At all, at all. And and that's that's my experience as a prosecutor, but I think that's my experience also just. What do you think about those people who have a hard time getting out, like adjusting to their lives after they get out? You know, like, like, you know, you get hired, you can't get, you can't do, you can't get a job, you can't do anything. I mean.

1:12:36 It's the worst possible thing you can imagine. I can't imagine dude. And coming home is is terrible, but imagine being like locked up in a cage or in a, you know, the equivalent of like a like a walk in closet. So I mean, I I don't really have like what I'll say is I never internalized or felt guilty about my work. My work was righteous. Yeah, but jail. Jail could be improved it. Could. Be improved. Is that something you consider?

1:13:17 Is that something you consider pursuing in the future? You're not sure it's? Not on my plate. It's not on my plate personally, but it can be improved. Yeah, I understand. And in other countries, like for example, we went to Colombia for investigations, their jails can be improved too. But you can have but you can like see. Your life, you could see your life, Yeah. In the jail that I visited in Colombia, you could see your wife. The jail could be approved. I'm not saying it can't be approved. They can all be improved. But you know, the the model, the historical US model of like send these men, mostly men, some women to like to some faraway place where they're cut off from family, You know, is to me, to me, from what I've seen doesn't lead to improving society.

1:14:13 I understand there are definitely people that I've heard about a few that I've encountered, not most some that I've encountered that I'm like, send him, send him as far away from the rest of us as you can, because he will actually will hurt people, physically hurt people could be rape, could be murder, whatever. For most people that go to jail, they, they deserve to be punished if you will. But on a human level, to me, the separation from from humanity doesn't do anybody favors. That person and their family or the rest of us when they get hottie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't that's not really on my like my list of things to do. Yeah, but it's something you've observed. But to me, like that, we can do better, right? Yeah.

1:15:00 Like the rape, like the rape culture in jail, we can do better than that. Yeah, we could. That's not doing anybody any favors. Yeah. God doesn't look favorably on that. I can imagine not Yeah, I can't imagine it's bad. I can't imagine it's well endorsed. It's like, endorsed and like, you know, Oh yeah. You know, like. That's not cool. Yeah, I, I can't I, we don't we'll have to do probably another podcast. Take it to get to to get to the to the defence part 10 minutes. I want to talk about family and balancing family and work and career and ambitions and sure and balancing your life because one thing that guy has so much respect.

1:15:41 Guy loves you. Guy, by the way, I, I love him and one of the reasons why I really, really love him is because he's genuinely always looking to, he's always looking to be a better human being, Like authentically like he's like, what can you do about our husband? What can you do about our dad? A better businessman, a better friend. Like he's just always thinking about that. Like his decisions aren't based in like what I feel like doing right now, but like, what's the right thing to do? You know, and that's a really, and he looks up to you. So like, as much as I enjoy like, you know, that mentality, how do you like first, OK, how do you balance it? And what do you you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but what do you?

1:16:27 What's your struggle that you feel like or like that voice in the back of your head that you feel like you have to get over? Like, for example, mine is you've done enough. You don't have to do anymore. Or like it's too hard. Don't bother. Like that's usually like the voice that I have to get past, You know, this podcast too much effort. Don't bother doing it. You know, don't you know, like you did 2 episodes this week. That's enough. You don't have to do anymore. So like I'm easily sat content and I'm I hate that I'm lazy, but I you know, but I have a tendency towards it. So how do you balance work and life and everything? And then like, what do you, what ghost do you get past? Yeah. All right. So how do I balance it? A couple ways.

1:17:11 So I use my calendar religiously, OK. And I calendar everything months out. It was challenging to get this time booked because of trials which I can't calendar because I don't know when they're going to happen outside of that. My calendar currently goes out to September. Wow, really? Yeah, yeah. And it includes trips with the family. It includes babysitting for like nights that I'm local and we'll go on a date.

1:17:52 So that's one thing that. Organizing Health. Organize, like to the extent possible and that takes a little bit of attention to detail, but it's not over the top. But that's what that's been a major, that's been a major thing for us #2 is communication and intimacy with our kids. So the communication is, is with Gayla about like where we're going this year in terms of like as a family, as parents.

1:18:33 So this is really probably boils down to leadership in my worldview, being a leader of the house in the sense that we do it collaboratively. But really my goal is to facilitate her accomplishing above and beyond her own goals, creating a platform for our kids to do the same, even though it's even though they're young. And then putting everything I have to do professionally in, in the community in that context. So it's it's kind of like leadership goal setting for the house for myself personally as as her supporter, as her husband and then as a dad. What happens if that deviates?

1:19:15 What happens if like, something falls off track or like something doesn't go as you like, you know, improvise or you? Improvise. Improvise to be honest. Like I can't think of an example like that. OK, so most things have kind of like because you, you're, I'm sure your plans are loosely enough that it's just generalization like time with kids. Yeah. And there's some time with what there's. Simple goals like we need to go see our family in Illinois, which is her family. We need. You'll see my family in Colorado. So they're, they're simple goals, but they're things that if you don't, I think to your question, if you don't focus on them and have a plan, you can easily go a year or two years. Some people could attend right, without focusing on time with their spouse, right. So we have trips planned out where just she and I are going. We have trips planned out with the kids to where everyone gets quality time with me.

1:20:11 So that's one thing that we've done that has worked. And then in terms of the voice in my head, I'll tell you, like the voice in my head recently has been saying this is a Jay-Z line. I actually used it in my trial last week. He's a Jay-Z. Line in trial I did. I've tried to use one in every trial you. Said you quote Jay-Z or you just take the line. You say like, oh, as Jay-Z says, or you say you just take the line. I've. Said as a in one trial, I said something to the effect of like, as my favorite poet once said. OK. This last trial I just said, OK, which was, is this what success is about? He says, is this was success all about? And so the the voice in my head recently has been saying it's more of a question of like what what's next?

1:21:00 What is the future hold? And when I asked, when I'm being asked that question, that like voice in my head, it's like for me, but really it's for us. And I don't know the answer. And I'm searching for that answer. And I've been welcoming feedback from clients, colleagues, friends from Gala, from like, from, from like the voice. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the. God voice of like I used to dream about the future and and to be honest with you, the dreams that I had have already happened. It's.

1:21:41 Great. It's amazing. And is this what success is about, right? Listen, I, I, I think it might be though, right? Like family, balanced life, meaningful work that you feel, you know, accomplished about. And I guess I, I, I do you think that it's going to strike you as like, oh, that idea resonates with me or it's going to strike you. Like I fall like I'm like, I fall into it. And then it's like, oh, wow, I really love this, you know, like, I know for example, I don't like, like you said, you're OK, you open minded and like trying new things and start like, I'm not, you know, I'm really not.

1:22:25 And like I judge books by their cover naturally. Just very, very, you know, and I'll go Netflix just based on like the name of this, of this stupid show or movie. Like no, and like, and then like this is all time like crap, I missed it. You know, I'm like, you gotta watch it though. So, so a lot of times you'll be until I start something, I'll realize that that's what's valuable to me. You know, like I do the when I do the podcast, I never knew what I wanted to do. I did an episode and like every single time I walk away from like an episode and I have it honest or emotional or open hour and a half, two hour, 3 hour conversation with someone and we connect and I learn and like we're both being like open and expressive and honest. I walk away feeling rejuvenated and alive and like this is what like like if I could do this all day every day, I would, you know, it's so like so, but I had to try to even know that that would even be the option, you know? So like, do you think that you're going to have to conceive of an idea and then try it or are you going to have or, you know, you're going to have to just try a couple of different things and like, oh, this is for me, you know, like, and I don't know, you know.

1:23:36 That's a great question and I don't know the answer. Yeah, yeah, that's figure that out. That's the that's the phase that I'm in. And I'll tell you. So I, you know, I shave most like most days, but when I don't like my, my beard is like getting greyer and greyer. Oh yeah. And a lot of times this kind of goes back to, like, what I do, what I do, importance on that. But you know, so often my opponent in court is like, 70. Yeah, right. And of late, probably this year that I turned 40 in August. So I'm like, chronologically getting older.

1:24:18 Like, my beard is graying. Kids are growing up. They're still babies. So like, that keeps me young. So I feel young. Yeah. And then physically you're, you're, you're, you're looking great. Thank you man, I have a trainer who's also. Aging, by the way, by the way, 40 could be, you could there's like a you're an age and there's your body age. And like, I'm sure your body age isn't 40. I'm sure your body age is in the year late 20s early 30s. I appreciate that, but my but my but my mind remembers my age and 30s. Yes, I'm escaping that I've been here a while. I'm. Escaping that, yeah. So where I'm going? With this is it is like a new this is. This is the stage that I'm in now, which is I'm 40. I'm blessed.

1:24:59 My parents are still with us. They're healthy, Thank God. Our kids are growing up every day. Every day is an adventure. I'm learning every day I'm teaching something to someone every day, especially professionally, I'm living the dream that I used to have and I'm in a very pugilistic profession. And the people that I'm punishing day-to-day, 30 years older than me. Wow. And I'm like, what does this all mean? And I don't know the answer to the question.

1:25:40 And I actually like that, but I'm searching. Yeah. So I searched during the day, through conversation, through dialogue, through observing others. I searched like in my dreams. Do you? Do you? Remember your dreams a lot or. When they matter, Yeah, Yeah, yeah. But I like in like conscious when I'm sleeping of like, what's the future hold. And I don't know the answer to the question and I'm alright with that. But it's like I found myself and I didn't necessarily expect this, but when I was 2526, I dreamed about being a federal prosecutor. That was. That's cool. That was the pinnacle. Yeah.

1:26:22 I'm six years removed from the pinnacle. Yeah. Asking what's the, what's that cynical? Yeah. And it's obviously my kids. But they're like, major life events are years away. Yeah. And so my job and I think your job is to fill your own life with fulfillment so that we can be the best parents to our like, yeah, kids at their milestones. Yeah, yeah, in whatever, in whatever ways that manifests. So you think you want to be more present, you want to you want to be around more to help your kids be, but I don't know to what extent you're around or not.

1:27:04 You know, I'm just I but you know, to be around to help, to be that. You know, I said this already and I saw the week, but there's a Springsteen line that is so great. He's like we're either ghosts or we're ancestors to our children, you know, and like you have to choose what you're going to be. And like, you could be a ghost where like, you know, you're haunting at you're haunting them and like you're constantly like you're the stuff of their nightmares. Or you could be like the guiding light and like live to see you know the way that. Guiding White back. Me too, man, me too. But you know what? So it takes so much effort, it takes so much patience, takes so much work. But dude, I hope to do this again.

1:27:46 I would love to do another, I'd love to do another recording in a couple of months or, you know, whatever it is. And next time we have and I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much, dude. And we'd even we, I feel like we're barely scratching the surface of the bucket. You know, we're barely scratching the surface over here. But this is a lot of fun. I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you. Thank you, man. I appreciate it. All right, we'll do this again soon. Bye everyone.