History Series 1: Dennis McNally / Grateful Dead Former Publicist / San Francisco / Blues and Jazz

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and we're live.
Dennis, I'm so happy to have you

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here.
Welcome.

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Thanks so much for joining
today.

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To be here.
So I came across your work a

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couple of years ago.
I've started getting into the

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Grateful Dead.
I actually found them by way of

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Joe Russo's Almost Dead, if
you're familiar with them, and

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they covered a song called
Atlantic City, but that

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Springsteen row and the band
covered it too.

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And that kind of, you know, so I
heard the jammed out version of

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that song and then I, you know,
started listening to more of the

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music and then I came across
this whole world and culture

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that I was that I was just
absolutely blown away by.

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And it's kind of really had a
huge influence on my life ever

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since then.
And your book about the Grateful

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Dead, A Long Strange Trip was
like my road map and biography

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to like really understanding or
starting to understand the

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culture and get a feel for the
main characters, the

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environment.
And it was like, I mean, I felt

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like I was reading a textbook
about the coolest stuff that I

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love to you know, I love to read
and love to learn about.

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And and then and then you said,
and then, and then when I sent

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you an e-mail, you mentioned
that you just wrote another

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book, which I have over here
also The Last Great Dream.

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And that that blew me away.
You know, that blew me away just

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as much.
So thank you first of all for

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the amazing work.
I would love to talk about all

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this stuff with you.
How did this, how did you come

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across writing the and I know
you have two more books, but how

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did you come across writing
these epics and what are the

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other books about?
It starts, I was in Graduate

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School and I was looking for a
dissertation topic and I was, I

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had let me start all over again.
So I was in Graduate School and

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I, there was, I was, I had spent
the summer in France to try and

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fake my way through a language
examination, which I managed to

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do.
So as a result, I stayed in a

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dormitory.
And let me advise all people

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who, who might not be in that
situation.

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You don't want to live in a in a
dormitory in Graduate School.

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And the kind of people that want
to live in dormitories in

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Graduate School after four years
of college are not the kind of

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people you mostly want to hang
out with.

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But never mind.
So there was this one guy.

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He was the only dope smoker in
the building and he was very

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kind and he shared his weed with
me, 'cause I had zero money and

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nothing else.
And one night I was, I, we were

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talking and I said something
about, yeah, I'm thinking about

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a dissertation topic and, you
know, maybe I'll do the beats.

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That would be interesting.
And he said you should do

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Kerouac.
His papers are at Columbia.

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And you can stay with my friends
in the Bronx.

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Now, having a place to stay in
New York City on the subway is

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right away, you know,
incredible.

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You know, I was truly broke,
like most graduate students.

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And they, the people who were in
that apartment that I stayed

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with, as a matter of fact, are
still some of my closest

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friends.
And that's this was 1972, so.

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Goodyear.
More than 5050.

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That's the year you were born,
right?

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Yeah, sure.
It's the year of all the the

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the, the, the year that my music
case was born.

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So anyway, I started working on
Kerouac and of course he was a

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raving deadhead.
And as I went along, I realized

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the connections most obviously
that Dean Moriarty of On the

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Road was was Neil Cassidy of the
famous Grateful Dead song cowboy

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kneel at the wheel of the best.
They never ever land.

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And so I said, OK, I want to do
these two books and I event.

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Long story short, I eventually
finished the Kerouac book, sent

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it to Jerry and Hunter at the at
the Grateful Dead post, you

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know, fan club post office box.
I had absolutely no idea how to

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get a hold of them.
And I also intuitively knew that

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if I marched up to the Grateful
Dead and said hi, I'd like to

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write a book about you.
They tell me to take a number.

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So I, I just sort of kept my
mouth shut.

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Eventually I met Jerry and
mentioned the Caraway book.

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Yeah, we'll, we'll, I'll take it
from there.

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So as I say, I I wanted to write
a book about the Grateful Dead

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and I sent a copy to Jerry at
the Grateful Dead fan club

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address, which was all I knew.
And eventually I met Jerry and

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mentioned the Kerouac book.
And it turned out that in fact,

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Kerouac and on the road in
particular, where where his

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Bible it was, it was just one of
the the building blocks of his

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entire persona He had, this is a
story that's actually in the

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last great dream because it's
kind of pivotal.

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And that is the transmission of
culture.

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So you have the beats in the
50s, and one of them was a guy

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named Wally Hedrick, who taught
art at the Art Institute and

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taught classes on Saturdays to
high school kids.

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And Jerry was one of them.
And among other things, he

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played acoustic Blues while they
painted.

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And this resulted that summer.
And when Jerry got up accordion

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for his birthday, he pissed and
moaned and cried and and told

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his mother he had to be a
guitar.

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And eventually it was a guitar,
which kind of settled his life.

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You know, that was it for the
next 40 years or whatever it

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was.
And it was also about the beats

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they asked him about.
He was a Wally Hedrick was a

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very well known beat painter.
And they said what what is this

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beat thing?
And while they said you guys are

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beat, go down a City Hall, it's
a City Lights bookstore and get

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this book on the road, which
was, you know, of course, a best

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seller at the moment.
And he did, Jerry did.

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It was the one question I never
asked him was did you buy it or

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did you take it?
I suspect the latter.

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But I didn't ask, it was my my
my old mission.

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So anyway, Long story short, I
began working on a Grateful Dead

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book and I researched that for
about 3 years.

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It was hugely fun.
I, I love research and the

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publicist needed to go away for
his health and did.

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And the receptionist at a
meeting, company meeting said

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what are we going to do about
publicity?

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And Jerry said, give me now to
do what?

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He knows that shit.
So I did and I became the dead's

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publicist for umpires.
And then just, you know,

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eventually Jerry died.
I wrote the book, finished the

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book.
It took 20 years 'cause I had to

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put it aside while I was the
publicist and wrote another book

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called On Hwy. 61, which is the
the sort of the deeper

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background of all this and was
basically the relationship of

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white people to black music
really since the middle of the

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19th century and going up to
Dylan.

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So that, you know, and then I
sort of stopped for any number

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of reasons.
And then in 2016, which was of

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course a year before 2017, which
is to say the 50th anniversary

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of the Summer of Love, which was
in 1967, so-called, I was asked

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to curate a photo show about
that.

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And I started with the, I found
pictures and started with the

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beats up to the Summer of Love.
And the end result was after

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about a month or two, I suddenly
went, this is a book, you know,

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it takes me a while sometimes
I'm not the sharpest blade.

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And I started and that became
the last great dream, which is

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basically the origins of where
the people who were in the hate

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in 1966, really before it became
famous, you know, where they

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came from and where their values
came from.

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And that basically involved the
art, the avant-garde art

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community of San Francisco, the
Art Institute, Wally, certainly

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a fundamental part of it.
And then, you know, electronic

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composers, theater people,
poets, painters, you name it,

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and they all contributed
something.

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And it's, you know, it's a
wonderful story.

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And then eventually it all sort
of combines into a community in

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the Hate and Shazam.
And then if you you those people

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included a whole bunch of folk
musicians, folk music was an

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essential part of all this.
And so you have all these folk

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musicians like Garcia, but also
like Paul Cantner and, and David

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Freiburg, all of the bands that
that would be, you know, all the

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guys in Big Brother.
And what would happen was that

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they encountered 2 things.
So you have all, all these

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people and they've got these
unusual, that unusual in the

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American context values whether
they even consciously think

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about it or not.
And they're all involved with a

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community and with basically a
peaceful, the idea of a peaceful

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gentle community.
And then they encounter 2 things

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that are very important.
They encounter LSD and The

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Beatles.
And after a while, a very little

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while, they are playing
rock'n'roll instead of instead

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of folk music.
And that's the hate.

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Yeah, yeah, it's it's what I
thought was really cool about

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the about your new about the
latest book was all the

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references that you made to the
Eastern cultures impact on San

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Francisco.
And I've only in the last couple

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of months, actually, ever since
really reading your book, I've

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only noticed the impact of
geography on culture, you know,

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and I've only recently been
aware of that.

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And it's and, and then now
everywhere I look, I can't not

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see it.
I mean, all the conflicts in the

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world and everywhere you look,
everything has to do with just

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where everyone's situated and
the and the conflicting cultures

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that you know, that everyone
that the fight seems to happen

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in these little meeting points
where everyone seems to, you

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know, seems to, I guess convert,
converge together, you know, and

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yes.
It's called place.

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Usually when when scholars study
this, they refer to it as place.

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And it's true place, not to get
too mystical, because for

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starters, I'm not really, but
you think a certain way to some

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extent from where you come from.
Now, there's lots of variations

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in all this.
You know, I have a taste for

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Southern food because my mother
cooked it a lot.

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She was from Chicago.
It's a whole long story.

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But the fact is that, so it
isn't just one to one.

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I was living in Los Angeles at
the time, but the fact is that

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the place has an impact on how
you live, how you speak, how you

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think, what you think.
San Francisco is a particularly

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distinct version of all that for
the simple reason that most

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cities, most places that, you
know, have a lot of people,

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which is to say cities don't
the, the, pardon me, they, they,

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they arise for really basic
economic reasons.

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Denver is where it is because
the railroads cross there,

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etcetera.
You know, Chicago, I mean New

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York City, you know, had a
harbor and it's usually the, the

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values are tended to be
bourgeois, middle class, you

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know, business values,
capitalism.

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San Francisco did not get
established that way.

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San Francisco was created by
failures, by people who did not

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fit in on the East Coast.
A lot of second sons where the

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first son would take over the
business and the second son was

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like, what about me?
And a lot of them, along with

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people from Chile and and China,
took off for San Francisco to

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hunt for gold.
Their values were not bourgeois

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values.
It was crazy time and and the

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city eventually became a fair,
moderately conventional American

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city, but it always had a
certain amount of room for

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craziness, for tolerance, for
craziness that most American

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cities simply didn't have.
And it's literally on the, to

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quote Robert Duncan, one of the
poets that I talk about, the

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Western edge of dreams.
It is literally, you know, if

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you envision Western culture
starting in Greece and Rome and

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expanding through Europe, and
then everybody getting on boats

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and going to America, and that,
OK, expands across America, and

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then it gets to San Francisco
and it stops a there's an ocean.

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And the people in San Francisco
were a long way from New York.

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And in many ways, the artists
did not look back to New York.

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If you were a painter, well, if
you were a painter, you looked

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to New York because that was
Jackson, you know, where the the

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Impressionists were.
But the fact is that that that

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in addition to the fact that
literally we were just here on a

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hill overlooking the Pacific
Ocean toward China and Japan, we

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also had a significant
population from China, you know,

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so you didn't have to go very
far.

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And any number of of these
artists will will tell you that,

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particularly the composers.
A guy named Lou Harrison grew up

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near Chinatown and he would hear
Chinese music, which is based on

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completely different own scale
from Western music.

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And he integrated them and
started sort of integrated

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gamelan, which is what he ended
up loving the most, gamelan with

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Western music.
So there's this mush, you know,

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mushing together going on.
And San Francisco had

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institutions by the by the after
World War 2 that that you know,

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preserve that The most obvious
was one called the Academy for

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00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:40,480
Academy for Asian Studies AAS.
And it, it was remarkable and it

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brought together all kinds of
again, poets, Mystics, artists,

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you name it.
And they studied they studied

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Asian culture and they, among
other things, Alan Watts was the

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was the chancellor and
eventually he would have a show

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about Zen on KPFA, another
uniquely San Francisco plug in

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into a world culture, into an
activist culture.

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And at a time when in the 50s
when, you know, people just

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didn't they didn't stray from
the straight and narrow.

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It was a a very conformist era.
San Francisco wasn't and

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00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:28,040
particularly the AAA S.
So you have Alan Watts on the

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00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,480
radio once a week telling people
about Zen and you know, you

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00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:36,320
weren't getting that in New York
and and these this is, you know,

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00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,440
this is where San Francisco's
culture diverged among them.

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You know, as I said, going all
the way back to their founding,

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00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:51,440
but in particular as as far as
Asia goes and Asian thought you

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you could start with Watts and
with with the the Academy

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00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,560
evasion studies.
Yeah, certainly.

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I thought it's so cool and it's
so funny because when I grew up

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00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,520
and I, you know, I say this,
I've noticed a lot recently, You

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00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,480
know, my education was primarily
I thought America was the only

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country in the, you know, on the
map.

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And I thought that the only
history was just American

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00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,080
history for 250 years.
You know, I never, I never

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expected that anything else
existed.

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And now I'm learning about all
this other stuff and it's in and

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00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,320
it almost feels criminal that,
that we're not being taught

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about all this other stuff
because there's, because all our

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roots, all our, the more you
learn, the more you see that

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where our roots came from and
where are the, you know, the

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foundations of being an
American, you know, in a lot of

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different contexts, where they,
they come from somewhere, you

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00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,760
know, and, and these
philosophies are not, you know,

264
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,720
born overnight.
And, you know, and I thought it

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was, I thought it was just so
wonderful that like education is

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like part of what the culture
is, taking your education into

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00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,360
your own hands and as opposed to
just describing to subscribing

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to someone else's education.
I thought that was so remarkable

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00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,520
and so influential.
I think that's why the movement

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00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,120
is still so strong, you know,
because it speaks so strong.

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Exactly what the people in the
hate did, the basic, the

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00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:18,040
fundamentals of the mainstream
American culture are American

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exceptionalism, which is to say
that, you know, really only

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America counts, which is it's
gotten that bad.

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And in fact, our current
administration, that is exactly

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00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,360
what they think and they say it
out loud, which is.

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00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:31,960
America First is the is the
same, right?

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00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,720
There you go.
American exceptionalism

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00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,000
implicit, which it leads to an
implicit racism, starting with

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00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,920
the Constitution in which black
people got 3/5 of a vote.

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00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,080
They couldn't use it, but but
this their southern overseers

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00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:53,520
were able to to use it to
maintain power.

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00:19:54,360 --> 00:20:00,920
Consumerism, the basic the basic
principle of freedom in America.

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There's two kinds of that.
There's one that is the freedom

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to make as much money as
possible, which the current

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00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:13,560
administration waves the flag
for, and the freedom of thought

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00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,080
to.
Evaluate anything, make jokes

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00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,720
about it or, or simply challenge
it.

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00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,200
Thoreau being the most wonderful
example.

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00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:30,400
I mean, he, he, he, he started
and just change it challenged

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00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:35,440
everything that, that, you know,
Christianity, you know, a vague

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00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,760
Christianity, though in fact,
you know, at this point that's

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00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,600
only a tiny fraction of the
country and on and on and on and

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00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,040
on.
And all these things sort of got

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00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:54,440
left behind by the 1960s in in
San Francisco.

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00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,480
Yeah, and I think it's I think
it's good.

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00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,080
I think that lit a flame that
hasn't really gone out, you

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00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,640
know, and I think that, you
know, even till today, you know,

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you see just your the rise of an
individual like Billy Strings,

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00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,680
you know, like, you know, where
he takes, where, you know, he

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00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,520
takes these grass roots and you
know, these, I'm sorry,

302
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,040
bluegrass roots, you know, and,
and combines it with acoustic

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00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,680
music, you know, and is, I think
that I know that, you know,

304
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,520
Jerry Garcia did a bunch of
albums with David Grisman that

305
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,280
was kind of similar, but Billy
Strings playing is so unique.

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00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,800
And I and there's like a whole
audience that's just they're

307
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,360
just chasing after it, you know,
and there's a whole group of

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00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:39,960
there's a whole world of just
people that that, that, that,

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00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,000
that really live and breathe
this kind of stuff.

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00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,440
And it's, it's, it's, I think
it's beautiful.

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00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:48,480
Bluegrass is a is a fascinating
phenomenon and Billy Strings is

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00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,840
one of the more fascinating
aspects of it.

313
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,440
His his chops are simply I was
talking with your Macalkinen

314
00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:00,560
once and I this was some years
back and I had just heard about

315
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,080
Billy Strings and was listening
to him like, wow, kids good.

316
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:09,040
And and I was talking with Yorma
and Yorma has a very dry and

317
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,520
wonderful sense of humor.
And I said, we're talking about

318
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:14,920
something completely different
than I said.

319
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,400
By the way, have you heard about
this kid?

320
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,600
You, you knowing you, you've
heard about this kid, Billy

321
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,840
Strings.
And he went Yep, Yep.

322
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,600
He said don't like really
talking about him.

323
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,840
And he sort of looks me in the
eye and gives me the almost the

324
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,600
wink and says hate talking about
people who can do things I

325
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,560
can't.
And and he was, of course

326
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,640
joking.
But you know, no, Billy is he's

327
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,200
got chops from God and and
that's all I can say.

328
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,280
But all all that.
Well, bluegrass is very

329
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,720
interesting, among other things,
because it is not folk music.

330
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,160
It is a it is a professional.
It was created by professional

331
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,760
musicians.
It's really challenging.

332
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:04,200
It is really engaging so that,
you know, the best thing about

333
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,320
bluegrass.
One of the best things is, is

334
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:15,160
that at a bluegrass concert, the
action in the parking lot before

335
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,600
and after the show are, you
know, with every, I mean, half

336
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,920
the audience play some, you
know, to some extent and they're

337
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,920
all sitting out in the in the
parking lot or, you know,

338
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,680
wherever picking before they
come in, they'll hear, you know,

339
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,960
the star.
And so that's, there's an

340
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,520
engagement there in a community
there that's, that's really

341
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,800
quite wonderful.
Yeah, I think it, I think it's

342
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,360
cool.
I'm curious what you think of

343
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:44,800
this.
I think that we're seeing a lot

344
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,920
of explosion of, of, of
alternative, we'll call it

345
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,280
thought in today's world.
And I think that a lot of the I

346
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,520
think, and I was talking to a
couple of friends about why that

347
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,480
might be, you know, and you
know, and one of the things that

348
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,160
someone pointed out to me was
whenever people feel oppressed

349
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:07,520
or squished or like suffocated,
it lights something incredibly

350
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,760
creative inside ourselves, you
know, and that's why I like the

351
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,640
best poetry I ever wrote was
after a heartbreak when I felt

352
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,600
lost and I didn't know which
direction I was going to go on

353
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,280
my life or something like that.
You know, he said we have and he

354
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,160
goes, you know what?
Say what you will about anything

355
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:26,000
with COVID, it was three years
of of people being miserable,

356
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,280
essentially, right?
It was, it was really, it was

357
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,920
really, you know, and justified,
not justified regardless, It was

358
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,640
years of people felt isolated,
lost, unsure what to do.

359
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,920
And everywhere that you look
felt on, you know, you

360
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,360
everything felt insecure.
And I think that since then

361
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,800
there's been like, you know, I
mean, John Mayer's joined again,

362
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,000
you know, joined dead and Co
and, you know, in the way that

363
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,400
the that the sphere allows this
kind of creative level or the

364
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,080
amount of music festivals.
I don't know whether I haven't

365
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,160
been following the scene enough
to really know whether it's more

366
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,760
than pre COVID or not.
But it feels like there's more

367
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,000
of an embracing of, you know,
the same free spirit that was

368
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,280
alive in the 60s and 70s that's
happening today.

369
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,120
And I'm wondering if you think
it has to do with just, I think

370
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:16,480
that people feel, you know, lost
or hurt or broke down a little

371
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:17,560
bit.
What do you think?

372
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,360
COVID and my.
OK, my question is, do you think

373
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:29,320
that the explosion in creativity
today is is due to the feeling

374
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,320
of people feeling lost and not
knowing which direction to turn

375
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,040
and a general disenhant
disenchantment?

376
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,640
You know, I think that's that
that's partly true.

377
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,000
I think there are a lot of
reasons why people feel the way

378
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,000
they do.
I mean, the more aware of us are

379
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,000
aware that our our climate is
going belly up and, you know,

380
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,560
and we've got an A maniac who's
not doing anything about it in

381
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,000
the White House.
And so, you know, that doesn't

382
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,680
help either.
But really all of this is part

383
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:09,000
of a, of a, you know, a path
that goes back into the 19th

384
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,160
century.
And it's certainly many of those

385
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:18,880
issues, you know, popped up
bigly, sorry, in the 60s.

386
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,800
And, you know, I occasionally
teach a, a class to, to high

387
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,440
school kids about the 60s.
They're taking a class in the

388
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:33,600
60s and I go in and talk about
stuff and, and I look at them

389
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,720
and I say, look, you guys are
interested in something that

390
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,600
happened 50, more than 50 years
before you were born.

391
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,800
If if I did that, I'd be looking
at the year 1900 and I don't

392
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,400
think I'd find anything really
great, fantastic to study in

393
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:53,720
1900 the way you guys are
interested in in the 60's.

394
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,960
The reason I say that you're
interested in the 60s is because

395
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,240
it hasn't gone away.
All these issues are just as

396
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,280
significant as ever.
The the, the hippie thing did

397
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,680
not affect American politics,
unfortunately much.

398
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,000
Maybe it helped end the war, but
it did affect American culture.

399
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:20,320
So that if you eat organic food,
if you are concerned about the

400
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,920
environment, if you do yoga, if
you pay attention to Asian, you

401
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:31,320
know, Asian thought, if you, you
know, want, you know, gender

402
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,120
nonconformity, etcetera,
etcetera, etcetera.

403
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:38,480
If if you know all these issues,
everything in other words that

404
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,200
Donald Trump is against, you
know, then you were affected by

405
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,000
the 60s.
Let me point out one, you know,

406
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:58,240
sort of significant unintended
consequence of the 60s, which

407
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:04,000
was in 1966, Ronald Reagan got
elected governor of California

408
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,440
by running against the Free
Speech Movement, the Haight,

409
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:16,080
Ashbury and Watts, the Watts
rebellion in others the same.

410
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,440
And then he got elected
president on the same platform.

411
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,120
And there's a straight through
line between from Reagan to

412
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:31,360
Trump in which basically white
males are protecting their long

413
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:36,320
old privileges and, and are
terrified of losing them.

414
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,320
And, you know, that's what's
going on.

415
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,840
We, we made progress in with
feminism and with, you know,

416
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,160
against racism and, and, and
with gay marriage, for instance,

417
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,520
being really, you know, calm,
calmly accepted.

418
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,840
And now we got a Supreme Court
that might reverse it.

419
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,400
Who knows?
I mean, you know, it's, it's a

420
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,760
grim situation, but all of this
is a reaction to the 60s.

421
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,160
That's what Trump is about, you
know, and you, you can just.

422
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,880
I think it's been everyone.
It almost feels like it's

423
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,040
anyone, anyone in the straight
world, you know, I mean, if you

424
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,080
just look at the trajectory of
people that are in positions of

425
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,160
authority and then the way that
they treat regular people that

426
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,600
ask question that, you know,
that say anything or that try to

427
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,560
mind their own business or do
their own thing.

428
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,880
And, you know, it almost feels
like individualism is, is a

429
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,520
threat.
You know, that's, it feels like

430
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,040
that that's been the case.
I don't like, I mean, I'm sure

431
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,960
the administration and politics
have to do plenty with it.

432
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,840
And I, I, I think that there is
more than a fair, you know, I

433
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,920
think that it almost there's
been a direct trajectory for the

434
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:56,080
last 30 years of, you know,
every, everyone in office just

435
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,600
trying to impose
authoritarianism on, you know,

436
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,800
the American people.
It feel but, you know, but but

437
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,200
yeah, I, I think your point
about the fact that the six, you

438
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,640
know, everything is still a
response to the 60s is, is

439
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:09,960
correct.
And I think that that's because

440
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,840
they really tapped into
something that was really,

441
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,120
really free and beautiful and,
you know, really magnificent.

442
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,240
And, and I think that's, I think
it's threatening to order.

443
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,080
It's why LSD is, is, is banned.
You know, I mean, it's why, it's

444
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,320
why it's considered a dangerous
drug to people that don't know

445
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,000
anything about it.
Yeah, the the irony of course

446
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:37,000
with LSD is that that it's it's
use and and spread in the 50s

447
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,720
was controlled by the CIA.
And I'm glad this, this is not

448
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,560
conspiracy theory.
This is history.

449
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,200
They, they, they encountered it
and they decided that they might

450
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:53,000
be able to make it use it as a
truth serum, which after a whole

451
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,120
lot of experimenting, they, they
were wrong.

452
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,280
But, you know, So what else is
new?

453
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:58,760
And.
And.

454
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,600
But the fact is that that yes,
all, all this is true.

455
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,600
You know, freedom always scares
the this, you know, certain

456
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,720
aspects of the social order.
In the 60s, things felt really

457
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,040
unhinged.
Now more than ever, the same.

458
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,840
So you know, there you go.
Yeah, So tell me about, I have

459
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,640
to hear about what it was like
living in San Francisco with the

460
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,400
dead as their publicist.
And I want to hear about and I

461
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,960
want to hear about the research
and how you go in, how you do

462
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,040
research in the book.
You know, for your books.

463
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,080
Your books are encyclopedias.
Your books are like, you know,

464
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,560
they're like, like it's, it's
not even that there's so much

465
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,040
information in them.
It's so easy to track down the

466
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,800
information that you're
presenting to.

467
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,840
So like, if I don't know
anything about jazz music in New

468
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,120
York, you give me enough
information that it's so easy to

469
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,720
just put in a name and a date
and a location in Google and get

470
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,960
a book about in a minute, you
know, And so I appreciate that.

471
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,760
First of all, thank you.
What's?

472
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,680
Like living with it.
You know it's not me.

473
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:16,160
Thanks, Sergey Brin, you know,
Google, I, I, I am not young

474
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:22,160
and, and, and I and I so I, I
get, you know, I grew up in the

475
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,560
60s thinking hope I die before I
get old.

476
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,720
Well, maybe not that, but but
you know, God, do I, you know,

477
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,480
do I really want to listen sound
like my father again.

478
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,280
And but, you know, it's just,
it's beyond astonishing.

479
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,040
Let me give you an example.
So I started working on my

480
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:49,200
Kerouac book in 1972.
You know, the closest thing to

481
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,080
the Internet was the New York
City phone book.

482
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:57,440
I mean, there what you know, I
you just bump into thing when

483
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,720
you research, you bump into
things you read, you know, you

484
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,200
read the first Oh, I should know
about that book.

485
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,760
OK, I'll read it.
Check the footnotes.

486
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,280
Maybe it'll send me the other
books.

487
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,000
Maybe it won't.
And you go, you know, and it

488
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:17,280
just, it goes on.
It's it's, it's, it's kind of

489
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,960
mysterious.
And eventually you start

490
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,320
building a night, you know, you
have an idea of, you know, where

491
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,840
you're going.
And maybe toward the end, you're

492
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:33,200
actually, OK, I need to know
this and I need in 1972, you

493
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,520
went to, you know, you got
information by going to the

494
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,720
library and those lovely
librarians, research like

495
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,120
librarians would, you know, show
you, you know, where to go and

496
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,560
and then you track down people.
Here's one example of the

497
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:55,480
difference of, of research.
There's a very, very important

498
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,320
person in Jack Kerouac's life by
the name of Gilbert Milstein,

499
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,440
who was an editor in 19.
In the 50s, he was an editor at

500
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:12,000
the New York Times who review it
accidentally got the assignment

501
00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:16,400
because the the main guy was on
vacation, got the assignment to

502
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:22,000
review on the road and gave it,
you know, a, a well, a review

503
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,840
that that made it a best seller
and also killed Kerouac because

504
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,199
fame was not really something he
was emotionally ready to handle.

505
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:41,000
And I found him by watching
television and he in 1974 or

506
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,440
five, whenever I was I found
him, he was working for ABC

507
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,520
News.
And I happened to read the the

508
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,280
credits one night and there was
Gilbert Milstein.

509
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,679
And I said it has to be the same
guy.

510
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:57,000
So I literally, I just picked up
the phone the next day and

511
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:04,720
called ABC News and got to him
pretty quickly and then went

512
00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:08,960
down and interviewed him.
And, you know, I was the first

513
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,760
person to really, you know, get
to him.

514
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,280
I was only, I was only the
second biographer of Kerouac.

515
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,800
So you know this, these are very
early days.

516
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,800
Now today, 2025, a woman who's a
friend of mine named Holly

517
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:32,080
George Warren is doing a new
biography of Kerouac where she's

518
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,760
got, she's been commissioned by
the estate.

519
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,920
And, you know, she has access to
a million things.

520
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,800
I never did.
And we were talking and I was

521
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,080
teasing her and I was saying,
well, you know, you, you can do

522
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,840
all your research, virtually all
your research from home.

523
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,720
You know, even even when you
find stuff at a library, half

524
00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:52,880
the time, if you write the
library and they'll probably

525
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,720
copy it and send it to you.
I mean it.

526
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,080
And on and on and on and off.
And she went.

527
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,000
Yeah.
And you got to hang out with all

528
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,080
the people that knew him that
are now that I talk to.

529
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,520
Good point.
So the the point is, you know,

530
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:12,320
the evolution of of of well, of
research is in our life, in my

531
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,280
lifetime, not yours.
You know, it's phenomenal.

532
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:24,680
And literally I, I, this, what
the, the approach that I took in

533
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:32,800
72 is I, I joked that my, you
know, I read, I read his mail,

534
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,280
which is to say I went to every
university archives I could

535
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:36,840
find.
It wasn't just at Columbia.

536
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,080
I interviewed everyone that I
could find, which was most of

537
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,040
the people that were, you know,
important in his life.

538
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:52,440
And I also sort of set a
baseline of American culture by

539
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,640
going through Life magazine
during his lifetime, which is a

540
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:01,360
lot of magazines.
Because I, I did it on the

541
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,080
premise that if it made it into
Life magazine of some issues,

542
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:11,240
some personality, some whatever,
then almost everybody knew about

543
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:13,840
it, or at least they would.
It represented the consensus

544
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,520
and, you know, because again,
I'm, I'm not from the literary

545
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,360
department.
I'm, I'm a historian and, and

546
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:29,000
which is why they're so stuffed,
because I mean, I'm pretty

547
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,800
serious about the, the history
of it.

548
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:37,600
And I wanted to, to reveal
Kerouac, you know, was a

549
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,840
diarist.
I mean, he, he wrote, he wrote

550
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,520
fiction, but he wrote fiction
that was based on his life and

551
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,800
what he observed, which is true
of every novelist.

552
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,880
But in his case, it was closer
to day-to-day than than others.

553
00:37:53,720 --> 00:38:01,160
And he, you know, this, this,
this reveals there's a principle

554
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,320
that if you can tell the story
of one person with enough

555
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,840
detail, if you've got enough
research, you can tell the story

556
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,640
of the times, that what we all
experience is what's going on

557
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,920
all around us.
And it's certain, you know, he

558
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,920
lived through World War Two.
He served as a merchant seaman.

559
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:25,840
You know, clearly he, you know,
he hung out with Gary Snyder.

560
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,920
Gary Snyder was banned.
Gary Snyder was a poet who had

561
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:35,320
been a a labour union member.
And he was he, he had had been,

562
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:39,000
you know, earning his living by
spending the summer working as a

563
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,960
fire watch in the Pacific
Northwest.

564
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:48,600
And after a couple of years he
was not retained because of

565
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:54,680
security concerns that that is
he was, he was banned because he

566
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,600
had been a union member.
Oh wow.

567
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,720
That did you?
No.

568
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:03,000
And that's that's the America
that Jack Kerouac lived in.

569
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,960
Now, Jack Kerouac, in fact, was
very politically conservative

570
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,560
and this did not disturb him as
much as it should have.

571
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,760
But that's a whole other issue.
Right, right, right.

572
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:18,320
And in terms of so, so you, you
approach writing like as as a

573
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,920
historian, not as a novelist,
right.

574
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,200
And but you have what what I do
notice is you put in a lot of

575
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,360
you put in a lot of fun detail
like you could tell you put in

576
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,640
your own commentary into some of
this in some of the stories that

577
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,320
that you can tell is is in great
humor and spirits.

578
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,840
One of my favorite stories that
that I remember.

579
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,360
I even remember when I read this
book at this point of the story,

580
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,880
I was I was two weeks after I
got married and I was in Orlando

581
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,080
and my apartment that my wife
and I were supposed to move to

582
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,240
had fallen through, you know,
and we didn't have a place to

583
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:00,720
live.
And this was two weeks after we

584
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:04,120
got married.
And I'm thinking, you know, I'm

585
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,320
going to be this adventurous
hippie and my wife has plans

586
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,560
for, you know, otherwise.
And so I'm reading this book and

587
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:12,760
she keeps me grounded.
It's great.

588
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,840
And I'm reading about the story
of Bob Weir drops the water

589
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:23,000
balloon on the cops head and.
And then he, you know, he

590
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,800
couldn't help himself but walk
out in the street and, you know,

591
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,680
while the cop is still looking
for the guy that did it and

592
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,160
saying and just said innocently,
good morning, officer.

593
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,000
And I just remembered that the,
the way that you phrased it,

594
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,520
there was so much like I, I, I,
I laughed out loud reading it

595
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,480
and I tried to convey to my
wife, I was so funny at the

596
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,840
time.
But you know, I obviously, you

597
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,400
know, it fails to do justice
whenever you try to retell these

598
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:51,840
stories, you know, but we.
The point, the point is that

599
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,440
being a historian is nothing
more or less the biggest

600
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,160
storyteller.
You're trying to tell a story

601
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:00,520
and you have to make it
interesting.

602
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,600
One of the problems with much
academic history is they don't

603
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,120
have that principle.
They, you know, they, they,

604
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:17,880
they, they want to expound, they
want to, to theorize and

605
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,960
frequently they want to connect
what's going on to a greater

606
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:27,400
cultural overview, which, you
know, that's sort of post

607
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,120
Marxist, post feminist post this
and that.

608
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:35,800
And my argument is, you know,
you, you, you, you write history

609
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:42,480
from the facts out, not from a
theory in So I'm very old

610
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:47,240
fashioned and, and have no, you
know, no particular connection

611
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:53,440
with the academic world because,
you know, I, that's why I bailed

612
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,120
as soon as I got my doctorate.
I, I, I ran to the, you know, I

613
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,240
ran screaming from, from the
world at the world of academe.

614
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,800
As I say, as you say, I, you
know, I include a lot of the

615
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,560
details are what keep people's
interest.

616
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,080
As I say, you know, and it's,
it's, you know, there's, it's

617
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,880
dense.
I, I use that in a positive

618
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,640
sense that, that my material,
you know, there's a lot of stuff

619
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,280
stuffed in.
As I say, you know, then the job

620
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,040
is to make it readable.
And on my good days, I do.

621
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,200
Yeah, and the rereadable is what
I've noticed because as I, as I

622
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,800
learn more about the that world
and then I go revisit the books,

623
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,280
you know, names, dates and and
events start becoming more

624
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,360
familiar, you know, and, you
know, and for example, the first

625
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,720
time reading it and my favorite
songs are China Cat, Sunflower,

626
00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:47,800
I know you writer.
And then six months, you know,

627
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,200
and then six months later, a
year later, you know, I've

628
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,840
listened to a dozen more
concerts and read a little bit

629
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,120
more and listened to some
interviews.

630
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,600
And then I go back and I'm like,
Oh my gosh, there's all this,

631
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,360
there's all this, there's all
these, all these gems over here

632
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:06,120
that I totally missed out on.
As you say, you know, it's a,

633
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,720
it's a big story both of the
books that we're talking about.

634
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:15,840
And as a result, remember you
have a computer in your hand.

635
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,960
So, you know, although I did put
a glossary in with the new book

636
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,640
because there were so many names
and I wanted to identify.

637
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,360
So so people could, you know, do
it quick before they went and

638
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:37,320
gave up and and went to Google.
But, you know, that's, that's

639
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,680
the way things are.
I mean, they're very dense.

640
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:51,240
We have mental filters to screen
news or the stuff that we don't

641
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:55,120
want to know about.
You know, I, I, I look at every

642
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,200
morning, I look at the, the
headlines on my newspaper, I

643
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,680
read about one story in 20 and
it's not usually the most

644
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,680
important story.
I mean, why do I want to know

645
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:14,920
more about what rationalizations
some political figure has about

646
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,120
what they're doing?
I, I can pretty well guess what,

647
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:23,040
you know what, what they are.
And learning more is, you know,

648
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,760
not going to profit me.
Besides, I just don't have any

649
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,480
room in my brain for it.
So, you know, we all, but we all

650
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,000
do this.
We all screen the information,

651
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,920
you know, do I really want to
know about a sports team that I

652
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,240
don't follow?
No.

653
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,480
So you know, that's that's fair,
that's fair for everybody.

654
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,880
So I, you know, I pick up my my
information from bits and pieces

655
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:52,560
here and there and and the New
York Times and and even then,

656
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,400
you know, I get the halfway
through the article figure I

657
00:44:55,400 --> 00:45:00,320
have the gist and move on.
But that's what we all need to

658
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:05,160
do in order to just function.
We live in a world of, you know,

659
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:11,320
just insane information overload
and you, you have to, you have

660
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:17,040
to pay attention in a kind of a
self protective way.

661
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:20,160
Yeah, you do.
Yeah, you do.

662
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,960
I think it's, and I think that
the other thing is also

663
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:25,960
familiarity.
I think that when something

664
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,840
becomes familiar, you know, you
become a little bit more

665
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,280
inclined to pay attention to it,
you know, and for example, you

666
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,200
know, I, I've just started
listening, you know, getting to

667
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,800
the jazz world, the jazz history
a little bit.

668
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,400
And so the details that you
mentioned in the beginning of

669
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,640
your book, you know, the, of
the, OR I guess towards, you

670
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,400
know, the middle ish of your, of
the, of the newest book, you

671
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,120
know, revolves largely around
that scene.

672
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,320
And I'm looking for names that
I'm familiar with.

673
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,560
And then sometimes I find them
and sometimes I don't.

674
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,560
And I have to almost force
myself to not just jump ahead

675
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,760
and skip, you know, and then I
have to make it look familiar,

676
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,360
seem familiar, you know, maybe
look up, look them up a little

677
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:05,720
bit or look up what people say
about it.

678
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:08,560
And then when I go back to, I'm
like, oh, OK, now, now I have a

679
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,160
bigger context that I think that
I'm able to kind of piece

680
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,000
everything more together, but
from.

681
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,480
What you, what you're talking
about is everybody's education.

682
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,040
I mean, you know, that's
exactly, you know, what you're

683
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:27,120
going through.
I will say that it's much easier

684
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:32,520
now.
I mean, I, you know, in 1967, I

685
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,280
left high school and went to
college and there was a guy with

686
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,840
a jazz show.
I I had already gotten into

687
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,160
jazz.
The first album I ever bought

688
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:48,840
was Thelonious Monks live at the
five spot in in a tank town in

689
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,320
Dexter.
It called Dexter, Maine, in

690
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,920
which there was a candy store
and they had one shelf of

691
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,920
records, but they also had the
Schwann catalog.

692
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:00,480
I don't you probably never heard
of that.

693
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,760
I don't even know.
I doubt it exists anymore.

694
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:06,040
The Schwann catalog was the
equivalent of the Internet for

695
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,600
music.
It it was a like a New York City

696
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,160
phone book.
It was enormous.

697
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,440
And it listed all the records in
print in America.

698
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,160
So I went to the lady at the
candy store and I said I want a

699
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,440
book, a record by Thelonious
Monk.

700
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:27,040
So she looked up Thelonious Monk
and she ordered me one, you

701
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,320
know, there.
And, you know, even then you

702
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,560
could get information.
Then I got to college and there

703
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,600
was a guy who was really
knowledgeable and he, he had the

704
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,520
jazz show on Sunday nights on
the radio station.

705
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,600
And I would go and sit and
study, listen to him and, you

706
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:49,480
know, hang out and, and, you
know, ask him questions because

707
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,560
there, there weren't that many
books then.

708
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,200
And certainly there was no,
pardon me, no Internet.

709
00:47:54,640 --> 00:48:04,160
So now you have the advantage of
Google and you can find out just

710
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,680
about, you know, everything this
side of of I don't know what I

711
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,560
mean, but certainly, you know,
jazz.

712
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:24,400
I don't know if it's true that
young people these days don't

713
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,600
read.
Many of them don't read SO.

714
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,520
Much they do not, and they do
not.

715
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,520
Reading has fallen out of
favour, which is a tragedy.

716
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,920
It is.
I find it, you know, I find it

717
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,960
interesting.
I'm, you know, a weird old man

718
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:44,680
who, for instance, you know,
Sorry, I'm gonna, I don't mean

719
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,760
to insult you.
Please.

720
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:51,440
I do all these interviews for
podcasts, which I don't I don't

721
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,160
listen to because I think that
reading is a much faster way of

722
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,560
absorbing information than
listening to it on a podcast or

723
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:03,840
or audio book.
I don't, you know, I don't

724
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,760
totally disrespect the way you
can learn that way.

725
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:12,720
I just, it doesn't suit me.
And the fact is that there's

726
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:20,320
this whole span of, of culture,
of history of whatever that,

727
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:29,520
that, you know, I, I only learn
slowly, as I say, from listening

728
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,960
to a guy and then listening to a
whole lot of records until now.

729
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,520
I have a fair grasp of the
history of jazz, but I've been

730
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,080
doing it for a whole lot of
years.

731
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:44,960
It's a very complex phenomenon.
And you know, I'm glad, I'm glad

732
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:49,560
you found it, but you know this,
it's just never going to stop.

733
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,640
I mean if you keep your mind
open and alive, open to

734
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:59,000
curiosity, you will run across
things like this till the day

735
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,320
you die.
Yeah, yeah, I hope to.

736
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:07,040
I hope to, because I find that a
lot of this is, is odd and fun

737
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:13,440
and super, super just relatable
because I think that there's,

738
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,920
you know, there's something
that, you know, I'm an Orthodox

739
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,920
Jew.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm observant and

740
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,320
there's a Jewish writer from the
1800s.

741
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,360
And one of the things that he
loves to talk about is the fact

742
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,200
that, you know, times change,
but human nature kind of stays,

743
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:35,960
stays the same, you know, and a
lot of, and a lot of the, you

744
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,880
know, and a lot, and a lot of
these issues that, you know,

745
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,080
that I'm, that I'm learning
about or these forms of

746
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,960
self-expression or, you know,
history or, or what caused, you

747
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,960
know, what, what caused an
emergence of, of, of culture.

748
00:50:49,720 --> 00:50:52,600
All that is extremely relatable.
I'm, I'm reading, I'm reading

749
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,160
what's it called book, that book
by Danny Sugarman now about

750
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,960
being the doors, that doors
manager.

751
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:05,560
And I'm reading it now.
And I'm like, yes, I think it's

752
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,120
called Wonderland.
What's called Wonderland, I

753
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,080
think.
I forget the name I I just I

754
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,040
just ran across Daniel.
As a matter of fact, he was very

755
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:18,480
he was very kind about my book.
Let me tell you that I please

756
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,360
don't don't think that I'm
talking down, but you really

757
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:27,040
want, you really want to read my
set, my the on Hwy. 61 because

758
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,040
it will give you the history of
black music.

759
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,360
And I mean, it's the hit.
It's not a history of black

760
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,320
music.
It's a history of white reaction

761
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:41,440
to black music.
But it'll give you a good handle

762
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,520
on, on, you know, jazz history.
If if you know, if, if that's

763
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,720
something as you say that that
concerns you.

764
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:55,160
It's and the way white people
glommed onto it and why.

765
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,320
Yeah.
Yeah, Yeah.

766
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:58,160
OK.
I'm going to.

767
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,520
Can you can you elaborate on the
difference in the in the Blues

768
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:12,240
and jazz culture?
Oh well, on the well, again, you

769
00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:13,960
know, that's a, that's a six
hour lecture.

770
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,600
Just put it this way.
You get to the 1890s.

771
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:25,320
Black people have been freed
from slavery for 40 years.

772
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:33,240
One, you know, essentially one
large generation, and within a

773
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:42,760
few years, 3 phenomena, musical
phenomena emerge all at the same

774
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:48,200
time in not in the same place.
One is the Blues, which started

775
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:55,200
coming together in the 1890s.
One is jazz, which started then

776
00:52:55,240 --> 00:53:01,320
in and combined Blues with with
in New Orleans.

777
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,080
And, and the reason it was New
Orleans, among other things, was

778
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:09,440
that the French military,
remember it was French.

779
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:15,120
The city had left behind a whole
lot of musical instruments so

780
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,920
that the people, the black
people of of New Orleans were

781
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:23,200
exposed, had access to and were
exposed to these instruments and

782
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:30,960
started taking Blues changes and
applying them to to popular

783
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:37,120
music and gave birth to jazz.
And thirdly, at the same time in

784
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:42,640
New Orleans, a man named Scott
Joplin was marrying Blues

785
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:49,520
changes and African American
sounds to classical music,

786
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:54,800
Western classical, and that
became ragtime and changed and

787
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,840
changed.
The, the, it's called

788
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,360
syncopation, in which you have
more than one rhythm going at

789
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:05,120
the same time.
And they, they, they, they

790
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,360
blend, they measure against each
other.

791
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:16,960
And these three things each
develop over the course of the

792
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,960
20th century.
And by the time you get to the

793
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:25,600
1940's, the Blues has now gone,
travelled along with the

794
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:32,400
migration of black people to
Chicago where it needs, it's in

795
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,240
a situation that literally needs
more volume.

796
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,200
So they start playing with
electric instruments and it

797
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:42,800
becomes what is called our, you
know, Chicago Blues, the

798
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:48,000
electric Blues.
At the same time it also

799
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:54,320
encounters certain country
rhythms and it becomes rhythm,

800
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:58,440
what they call rhythm and Blues.
And eventually that becomes

801
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,160
rock'n'roll.
And then white people go back

802
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:06,760
and look at the the R&B.
The same guy, the same producer

803
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:13,160
who produced Louis Jordan, who
was the fundamental king of R&B

804
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,920
in the 40s.
The same guy and guy named Milt

805
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:21,920
Gabler then turned around and
produced Oh God, I've forgotten

806
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:28,840
his name.
Oh my Lord, I'm pulling a blank.

807
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,640
As soon as you stop thinking
about it, I'll pop back into

808
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,280
your head.
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt it was.

809
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:43,360
It was the Comet, Bill Haley,
Bill Haley and the Comets who

810
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,120
were started doing rhythm and
Blues songs.

811
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,360
But in a country is sort of he
had been a country band.

812
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,680
It was they were Bill Hilly in
the Saddleman first.

813
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,200
Then he started listening to R&B
and went, hmm, and they became

814
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,160
the Comets and you know, and
then.

815
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:02,320
That was rock around the clock,
right?

816
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,240
Rock around the clock exactly
which of course, it was

817
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:11,040
originally a black song.
So you know, and and all of the

818
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:16,320
all of this is about, you know,
and if you really want to take

819
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:20,600
it seriously, you can go back to
the 1740s and what was called

820
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,840
the great the great not
transformation.

821
00:56:25,720 --> 00:56:30,400
Again, I'm pulling a blank.
The Great Awakening, in which

822
00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:36,720
there was an enormous series of
religious revivals all over the

823
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:40,400
United, you know, what was then
colonial United States.

824
00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:46,880
United States only had 13
colonies at that point, and

825
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,680
maybe a few more.
But still it was early days.

826
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:56,120
And but what happened was in the
South in particular, the revival

827
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,360
allowed for black people, but
they had to sit in the balcony.

828
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,600
They, they were segregated, but
they were part of it.

829
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,080
And you could hear them.
And what happened was that black

830
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:11,640
choral singing affected church
music as early as the 70s.

831
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:17,040
And so that you can't talk about
black music or white music after

832
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,400
that.
It's all both.

833
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:25,440
And, and you know, there was a
guy named Cecil Sharp who was a

834
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:29,880
very good musicologist in
England.

835
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,360
The the what they call child
ballads, the old sort of classic

836
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:39,680
English folk songs.
And then he came to America and

837
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,720
he sort of he studied them in
America and decided that, well,

838
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:51,240
there were this white music
Appalachians that that had, you

839
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,480
know, that was pure and that was
English.

840
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,800
And then there was black music
using the same material, which

841
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,480
was, you know, to him,
commercial and not to be

842
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:06,280
trusted.
Now the fact is that that the

843
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:13,520
the the prichent St. of folk of
Appalachian music was the Carter

844
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,080
the Saints with The Carter
Family and the elder of The

845
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:21,960
Carter Family went song
literally did collect songs and

846
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:23,520
he collected them with a black
guy.

847
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,520
In other words, they were they
were collecting Blues and and

848
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:31,240
folk songs just as much as you
know, will the circle be

849
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:35,920
unbroken.
And so the fact is that all of

850
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:41,120
this stuff works together, has
always worked together.

851
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,880
The the most important.
And again, this is there's a

852
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,960
book you should read.
There's A, and I forget the the

853
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:59,040
name, but it's a biography of,
of Harry Smith and it's a Harry

854
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:04,160
Smith collected, among other
things, collected 70 eights and

855
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:08,560
then quite illegally, he and Moe
Ash at Folkways.

856
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,320
They they never got permissions.
I mean, it could never happen

857
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:18,000
today, but they put out a six,
one of the first box sets, A6 LP

858
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:24,040
33 and a third collection of
American folk, what he called

859
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:25,640
folk music.
It wasn't folk music, it was

860
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,120
commercial music.
It was music professionally

861
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:35,080
recorded between 1929 when
electronic microphones became

862
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:38,640
available against acoustic
microphones, which were really

863
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:45,920
crude.
And, and he put together this

864
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:51,440
package and they were all
recorded between 1929 and 1932

865
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,960
when because of the depression,
the record, the recording

866
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,880
industry just went completely
belly up.

867
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,680
And for several years they just
didn't sell anything.

868
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:05,120
And these songs, he, he, you
can't, he does not.

869
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:10,080
And it's, I'm very proud of him.
He does not identify people as

870
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:12,720
black or white.
And you can't tell.

871
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,280
These, these southern, you know,
it's a southern accent, so say

872
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:18,360
it could you know, you don't
know.

873
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:29,880
And this music, which was called
the folk, let's see, the folk

874
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:38,440
music anthology, ended up being
the source for that old music

875
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:41,920
that Dylan and all the other
folkies in the early 60s.

876
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:45,480
Right.
Didn't drug music have a big

877
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,560
impact too?
Drug music is part of all this.

878
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:54,400
You know, it had a real it had
its biggest impact actually in

879
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,400
England, where it was called
skiffle.

880
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:01,920
Long story and and too complex
to explain that, but trust me.

881
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:07,080
And skiffle, which led to
English rock'n'roll.

882
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:11,600
I mean, John, John Lennon and
Paul McCartney had a a skiffle

883
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,720
band called The Quarryman.
There you go.

884
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:21,400
Yeah, who is that?
There was yeah, there was So all

885
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:25,720
this OK, I I, I, I love, I love
your answers because they take

886
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:28,880
me on a on a whole another trip,
you know, every single time,

887
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:31,320
every single time you're.
You're bouncing around in

888
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,360
subjects, so I'm responding.
I'm loving it.

889
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:35,600
This is.
This is.

890
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:36,480
This is fun.
No, no, no.

891
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,440
This is what I've this is what
I've been wasting my time with

892
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:41,400
for the last 50 years.
You know, what can I say?

893
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:45,600
Doing these interviews.
No, no, no.

894
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,200
Oh, that kind of research.
I love it.

895
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:50,200
I love it and I and I have.
To say that.

896
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:55,000
It's your recall is incredible.
Your recall is incredible.

897
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:56,600
Can you tell me a little bit
about spending time with the

898
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:58,000
what is it?
What, what was it like being a

899
01:01:58,000 --> 01:01:59,240
publicist?
What was it like?

900
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,080
Can you tell me some stories
about working with them and

901
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,280
dealing with them with it as
difficult as everyone says they

902
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:05,760
were?
Was it fun?

903
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,560
What was it like?
It was mostly fun.

904
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:18,160
It had the only problem.
No, it was the ideal situation

905
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:20,680
in many ways, because, for
instance, they were the only

906
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:23,240
band in history that didn't give
a shit about whether or not they

907
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,120
got publicity or not.
OK, They lived.

908
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:29,360
In it was an easy job.
And on that level, it was an

909
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:33,720
easy job.
It really was when I thought it

910
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:36,240
was worthwhile.
Eventually I learned that when I

911
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,320
thought it was worthwhile,
Jerry, Jerry trusted me.

912
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:40,880
He hired me.
He trusted me.

913
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:43,720
And he did most.
He was the target of most of the

914
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:45,600
requests and he did most of the
interviews.

915
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:48,240
There were band members that
just didn't do interviews, which

916
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:50,200
fine with me.
You don't want to talk, don't

917
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:55,280
talk.
What happened was that when I

918
01:02:55,680 --> 01:03:01,080
got I became the publicist in
1984, at which point I was in my

919
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:05,680
mid 30s and the whole general,
there was a whole, there were

920
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:07,600
generations of dead heads,
right.

921
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:10,000
So the first generation were the
people in San Francisco in the

922
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:14,360
60s and the second generation
with America were college kids

923
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:19,280
on the East Coast between DC,
Boston and Chicago in that

924
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:23,080
within that triangle where the
Grateful Dead started playing

925
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:29,480
colleges in the late 60s.
Well, by the middle 80s, these

926
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:33,360
are people like me in their mid
30s and some of them are

927
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:38,200
newspaper editors and some of
them are TV executives and they

928
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:39,920
want to cover the Grateful Dead.
They want to cover it

929
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:42,480
positively.
But as I pointed out to the

930
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:48,600
band, if that you don't let them
in and you can't trust the the

931
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:51,400
venue to do it.
This is a job the Grateful Dead

932
01:03:51,400 --> 01:04:00,760
always, you know, went for a, a
self-contained setup.

933
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:05,240
So, you know, you, you, you had
to use promoters, but you

934
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,160
trained them and you, you kept
them even when, even when you

935
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,400
found out they were stealing
from you, we never changed them.

936
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:15,680
Oh yeah, like, OK, bad boy, you
know, make sure that the

937
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:21,920
catering's right, etcetera.
And, And so I said, look, here's

938
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,640
the deal.
These TV crews are going to come

939
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:25,920
to the show.
Your, your story.

940
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,680
Now, you know, suddenly
Cincinnati erupts in tie dye.

941
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:35,480
You, you know, that people, it's
a story and you, you know, so

942
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,080
they're going to want to cover
the show if they can.

943
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:41,760
They'll shoot the, they'll shoot
the beginning of the show and

944
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:44,400
it's pretty lights and, you
know, pretty music.

945
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:47,840
And they'll, they'll run that.
The Grateful Dead are in town.

946
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:50,840
Isn't this nice?
If you don't let them in to

947
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:54,120
shoot the music, they will shoot
people smoking dope in the

948
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,760
parking lot because they had you
know, when you send out that

949
01:04:57,760 --> 01:04:59,520
camera, it's got to come back
with footage.

950
01:04:59,920 --> 01:05:03,600
Simple.
And everybody and the band went,

951
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:07,960
yeah, you're right.
So as far as that goes, mostly,

952
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:12,520
you know, what I did was answer
the telephone and and make sure

953
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:17,200
that that reviewers can get in
and also deal with the

954
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:23,720
photographer still and and video
mostly to make it as invisible

955
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:26,160
as possible.
So they'd come in, they'd shoot

956
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:32,240
and they'd leave and they would
attract the notice of the band

957
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,680
and more importantly the crew,
because the the crew was

958
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:38,400
extremely entitled and very
indulged.

959
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:42,400
And if they felt like picking on
somebody, they did that included

960
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:46,400
me at times.
But anyway, so you know, that's

961
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:49,080
that was the job of being the
publicist for the Grateful Dead.

962
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:54,560
Other than that, I was, you
know, I was sort of informally

963
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:59,480
put in charge of special outings
so that, for instance, we went

964
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:03,320
to the White House and you know,
I had to, or we went to visit

965
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:06,720
the vice president and his at
his residence.

966
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:12,600
And I'm explaining because of
course, you know, the ban and I

967
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:14,480
had gone, you know, give me your
social.

968
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,240
We need the Social Security
number to give to the Secret

969
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:18,760
Service and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.

970
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:20,840
And then?
Wow, what was that like?

971
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:24,280
They were, you know, the.
Senior service was told about.

972
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:29,000
Yeah, they were professional.
I mean, you know, and I, I, we

973
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:30,280
worked together.
It was no problem.

974
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:37,360
They were so professional that
when I, I, we went to, to, to

975
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:40,800
the Naval Observatory, which is
the home of the vice president.

976
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:49,640
And I, we get into the van and I
discover that Mickey and Carol,

977
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:54,840
Mickey Hart's wife is Carol and
Mickey and Carol's nanny, who's

978
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:59,360
a Latina lady.
They didn't mention to me that

979
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,240
she was coming.
Thanks, guys.

980
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:05,520
So we get out of the, I get out
of the van at the door, at the

981
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:09,920
gate, and I say, so here's, you
know, that's, that's who that is

982
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:11,840
and blah, blah, blah.
And here's the, the Social

983
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:14,840
Security numbers.
And that Lady is a nanny.

984
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,800
And quite frankly, I don't have
a Social Security number.

985
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:20,680
I don't even know if she has 1
and I don't even know if she has

986
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:24,640
papers.
I think we can confidently say

987
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:28,360
that she's of no possible danger
to the vice president.

988
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:31,560
But that's all I can say.
And they just saw, you know,

989
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:35,280
they recognize that famous
people do things their own way

990
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,400
sometimes.
And they didn't give me a hard

991
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,760
time, thank God.
And, you know, we had an

992
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:44,120
interesting time.
And I'll tell you a funny story.

993
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:45,880
So we're in.
Please.

994
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:51,480
And we gather in the dining room
and, and, you know, it's just

995
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:54,320
they had things to say to him
and he had things to say to

996
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:55,840
them.
It was, it was, you know, very

997
01:07:55,840 --> 01:08:01,680
charming.
And I went to the bathroom and

998
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:03,960
smelled a familiar odor in the
bathroom.

999
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:12,040
And later that day, I looked at
Jerry.

1000
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,960
I just sort of raised my eyes.
So I was in the bathroom and he

1001
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:20,920
said, man, I just couldn't pass
up the opportunity to smoke.

1002
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:25,279
Oh my.
God, you know, I couldn't.

1003
01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:33,000
I couldn't and you know the
other, you know, there was like

1004
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:37,279
one time we were at the White
House and no, I'll tell you a

1005
01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:41,479
better story.
So Pat Leahy, who was a senator

1006
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:47,600
from Vermont and became our good
buddy, He he he looked like a

1007
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:51,120
senator distinguishes all get
out until he put on a tie dye

1008
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:54,080
T-shirt and shorts and he's
dancing on stage to the Grateful

1009
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:59,160
Dead.
Frankly, that I'll tell you 2

1010
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:05,359
stories that that I want to be
in a country with senators dance

1011
01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:08,120
in tie dye T-shirts at at
grateful they chose this this

1012
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:08,720
is.
I agree.

1013
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:14,399
So, so Pat and Barbara Boxer,
who was our, you know, she was

1014
01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:16,279
from Marin County, where the
band is from.

1015
01:09:16,279 --> 01:09:21,920
And we knew her a little bit.
And they invite us to lunch at

1016
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:28,000
the Senate Dining Room.
And we, we go, you know, chore.

1017
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:31,160
And we, we sit down.
And of course, there's a buzz in

1018
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:33,960
the room when Jerry walks in
because people recognize him.

1019
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:39,479
And far across the room is Strom
Thurmond, the senator from the

1020
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:42,040
19th century.
I mean, this is a guy who led

1021
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:46,880
the Dixiecrats in 1948.
And, and, you know, just a

1022
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:50,560
barbarian.
But you know, senators,

1023
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:55,520
politicians love meeting
celebrities because there's

1024
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:57,400
always a possibility they can
get something out of them.

1025
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:00,960
You know, like, oh, well, you do
a benefit for me.

1026
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:07,200
So, and in fact, the Mickey did
with, with Nancy Pelosi, they

1027
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:08,360
have still actually good
buddies.

1028
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:15,160
And and Sean Thurman had been
eating first.

1029
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:19,160
So and I can see him lean over
when we came in, I saw him lean

1030
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,960
over to one of his younger
staffers saying who basically

1031
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:24,960
who's that?
And the guy explains, So as he

1032
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:28,120
comes out, he comes, he comes
over to our table and

1033
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,360
everybody's polite and standing
up because, you know, you're

1034
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:36,240
polite.
And Strom goes to Jerry and

1035
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:38,920
sticks out of his hand and says,
I understand you're the leader

1036
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:42,720
of this, your organization.
And Jerry's going, well, I don't

1037
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:44,880
know about that senator, but
they, you know, he's polite.

1038
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,440
And he shakes his hand and they
go on.

1039
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:49,720
And I'm just sitting there
thinking, you know, there's

1040
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:53,440
Jerry from the 21st century and,
and Strom Thurmond from the 19th

1041
01:10:53,440 --> 01:10:55,400
century.
And they meet in the Senate

1042
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:58,800
dining room.
It was just utterly bizarre.

1043
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:02,040
Here's another one that's that's
just as bizarre.

1044
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:09,680
So Pat Leahy's dancing on stage
and I happen to be standing next

1045
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:15,440
to the stage stairs and a runner
comes down from the, the, the,

1046
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:23,280
the office of the stadium.
This is in, in DC and says, you

1047
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:25,560
know, is Senator Leahy here?
I said, yeah.

1048
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:26,920
He said, well, there's a message
for him.

1049
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:28,400
I said, fine, you know, I'll
take it.

1050
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:30,920
And I gave it to him.
He says, do you have a phone?

1051
01:11:31,480 --> 01:11:35,720
And I and I said, oh, sure, by
then, no cell phones.

1052
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:40,600
But by then, literally we had a
phone hardwired onto our stage

1053
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:46,160
because we had to have it.
And I, so I go up to our stage

1054
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:48,560
manager and say, could Senator
use your phone?

1055
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:51,720
He says sure.
So he calls what turns out to be

1056
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:57,320
the Secretary of State.
And it turns out that this is

1057
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:01,480
now President Clinton.
President Clinton has just

1058
01:12:01,480 --> 01:12:08,640
decided to bomb, I think it was
Libya, but whatever it was, you

1059
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:15,440
know, and he had to tell by, by
custom, something Trump doesn't

1060
01:12:15,440 --> 01:12:19,800
do by custom.
You tell, I think they call it

1061
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:24,560
the Gang of Eight, which is the,
the speaker and the head of the

1062
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:29,160
intelligence committee of both
or the, you know, of both

1063
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:31,320
houses.
What you've done.

1064
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:33,360
You don't have to ask for
permission, but you have to tell

1065
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:38,560
them.
So I'm on the I'm standing there

1066
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:46,480
and, and what I hear is, is
Patrick saying, well, the

1067
01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:49,800
conversation and he obviously he
filled me in on on the other

1068
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:51,880
end.
And the conversation goes after

1069
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:54,360
a while, the Secretary of State
says, you know, it's really loud

1070
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:57,360
there.
And Pat said, yeah, that thing,

1071
01:12:57,360 --> 01:13:02,360
he's the opening act.
I'm, I'm at this concert and,

1072
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:06,320
you know, Sting, who, who, who
Sting, who's grateful that, you

1073
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:10,080
know, the Secretary of State has
no clue, but he's finally he

1074
01:13:10,080 --> 01:13:11,920
says, can you, do you have a
minute for the president?

1075
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:15,880
Yes.
So the president and tells him,

1076
01:13:16,440 --> 01:13:19,160
and obviously the president is a
little, you know, is a little

1077
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:21,320
hipper and a little more
knowledgeable about music.

1078
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:27,760
Anyway, they hang up and Pat
turns to me and tells me all

1079
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:30,320
this.
And I'm standing there and I'm

1080
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:34,640
thinking, you know, right now
there's people at the CIA,

1081
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:36,160
obviously, and there's people in
the Pentagon.

1082
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:37,760
And, you know, they know about
all this.

1083
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:41,600
But, you know, very few.
You know, Madam, now in half an

1084
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:43,160
hour, everybody's going to know
about this.

1085
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:46,800
They'll make an announcement.
But at the moment, I'm one of

1086
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:53,560
100 people.
And it's like, what?

1087
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:58,440
And that was that's working.
Now that is an example of what

1088
01:13:58,440 --> 01:13:59,960
it was like working for the
Grateful Dead.

1089
01:14:01,440 --> 01:14:03,880
We call that a glitch in the
matrix.

1090
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:09,120
You know, in some.
Oh, the Matrix was permanently

1091
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:10,560
glitched around the Grateful
Dead.

1092
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:15,520
We called it synchronicity.
Things happened that had no

1093
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:19,040
business happening and you know,
that was what life was like.

1094
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:21,040
What was the fire?
The fire in the mountain and the

1095
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:25,360
volcano erupting around the same
time incident that was in the 78

1096
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:27,840
OR.
Around that, it was in 1980,

1097
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:33,280
it's true, the Grateful Dead
were playing in Portland, OR.

1098
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:35,960
They started playing Fire on the
Mountain.

1099
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:40,000
And in the middle of God's
truth, in the middle of Fire in

1100
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:42,960
the Mountain, Mount Saint Helens
erupted.

1101
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:51,600
And you know.
Yeah, it's crazy.

1102
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:57,360
There's no explanation for that,
and correlation is not, but it

1103
01:14:57,360 --> 01:14:59,880
was a very strange.
No, no, but it's weird.

1104
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:03,560
Yeah, it's, oh, it's a weird.
You have to understand that

1105
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:06,720
weird was a very positive
adjective in the world of a

1106
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:08,080
dreadful dead.
Sure, sure.

1107
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:10,800
We were weird.
We knew we were weird.

1108
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:14,960
Can I, can I ask, and I guess
this would be one of our last

1109
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:21,320
questions before you wrap up,
what in your opinion kind of did

1110
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:23,440
Jerry in?
I know that you said, I know

1111
01:15:23,440 --> 01:15:25,960
that you there's a couple of
avenues you take in the book.

1112
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:30,040
Maybe it's, you know, stardom.
Maybe it was all the pressure.

1113
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:34,720
Maybe it was, it was obviously
heroin was not great, you know,

1114
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,320
by any stretch.
Well, remember, you know, no,

1115
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:39,440
let's let's be clear.
Like to be like a superstar.

1116
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:42,800
He did not want to be a
superstar.

1117
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:48,320
He wanted to have fun.
The heroin probably kept him

1118
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:52,840
going before before you, you
know, label that it was a

1119
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:56,240
sedative that that kept him
coping.

1120
01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:59,800
The fact is that he died of a
heart attack because he didn't

1121
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:03,000
take care of himself.
I mean, all of the things that

1122
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:07,120
every guy over 40 learns you,
you, you know, you have to watch

1123
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:08,600
away.
You have to exercise a little.

1124
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:12,320
You have blah, blah, blah.
And he, you know, he never quit

1125
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:16,800
smoking cigarettes and, you
know, and he was a raging

1126
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:19,120
diabetic and, and that led to a
heart attack.

1127
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:24,440
And, you know, he he didn't want
to take responsibility.

1128
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:28,960
And you could do a very deep
psychoanalysis that I am not

1129
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:32,880
qualified to do.
I think the obvious, you know,

1130
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:38,320
one of the obvious things is,
you know, being treated as

1131
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:41,680
special when he didn't, you
know, really want to be.

1132
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:47,520
And I'll tell you once, well,
let's close on one story.

1133
01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:51,920
Please.
I was sitting in the lobby of

1134
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:54,520
one of the, I think it's the
Marriott's, but whatever, it's a

1135
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,640
hotel with a glass elevator on
the inside.

1136
01:16:57,640 --> 01:16:59,160
So you can see who's in the
elevator.

1137
01:16:59,480 --> 01:17:01,240
I was on, you know, on the floor
of the lobby.

1138
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:07,600
And the lobby came up from the
basement where the gym was, and

1139
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:13,240
it stopped at our level and I
could see Jerry and he was alone

1140
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:18,880
in the in the elevator.
And I could watch him tense as

1141
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:22,280
the doors opened because he was
assuming that they were going to

1142
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:23,760
be a gaggle of dead heads.
And they were going.

1143
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:29,040
And it turned out to be my wife,
who was an old friend of his.

1144
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:33,480
And so I could watch him relax.
You know, it was, it was quite a

1145
01:17:33,480 --> 01:17:36,120
transition.
She gets in there chit chatting

1146
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:39,560
or not it didn't, you know.
And they go up to another floor

1147
01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:45,600
and same, you know, same tents.
And he, the door opens and

1148
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:49,440
there's three Latina maids who
don't know him, don't care.

1149
01:17:50,280 --> 01:17:59,640
And, you know, and then, yeah,
the point being that that it was

1150
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:02,120
hard.
He couldn't go to museums.

1151
01:18:02,440 --> 01:18:05,680
The nicest thing I ever did for
the Grateful Dead was I arranged

1152
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:12,280
an hour alone with his major
Monet exhibit, travelling

1153
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:15,520
exhibit in Chicago.
And you know, and they, I mean,

1154
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:19,200
they Jerry in particular, I
mean, he loved his art.

1155
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:24,240
And you know, he couldn't, he
couldn't go to the Field Museum.

1156
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:27,160
I mean, they, the museum, the
Art Institute, I mean, you know,

1157
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:29,600
he'd be glommed onto it so.
Yeah.

1158
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:37,600
That, you know, it's deeper
stuff than just fame, but fame

1159
01:18:37,600 --> 01:18:41,840
certainly didn't help.
I bet, I bet, I bet, I bet

1160
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:47,520
Dennis, I am so grateful for
your time and I'm so grateful

1161
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:50,040
that you got back to me and I'm
even more grateful for your

1162
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:54,200
work.
I think your work is I mean, I

1163
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:57,040
know that every single time I
talk to a dead anyone that knows

1164
01:18:57,040 --> 01:18:59,080
anything about the Grateful
Dead, I mentioned your name, I

1165
01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:01,880
mentioned your book.
It's the it's the Bible for for

1166
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:03,800
that community.
So you know, aside from the

1167
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:06,600
other great and the other great
work that you've done and you

1168
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:09,480
know, as you dive into, I just
want to say I really appreciate

1169
01:19:09,480 --> 01:19:11,720
everything you've done.
This is incredible.

1170
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:15,400
And this is such it's such AI
have not been more excited to do

1171
01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:19,200
a podcast with with any guests
more than I was excited for

1172
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:20,880
today.
And I really, really appreciate

1173
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:22,720
your time, Dennis.
Thank you so much.

1174
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:25,680
You're entirely welcome.
I, I hope I I made it

1175
01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:27,400
worthwhile.
You take care.

1176
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:29,160
All the best, take care.
Bye bye.

1177
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:29,800
Bye.