History Series 2: David Schwartz / Vegas & Gambling / Rise & Fall of the Mob / Conflict Resolution

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together,

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Doctor Dave Schwartz.
I saw the I saw on your website

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that you occasionally go by
Doctor Dave with your but not to

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be confused with the medical
Doctor Dave.

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Yeah, No, no, not, definitely
not a medical doctor.

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Well, thanks so much for
joining.

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I I found your information
online when I was looking a

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little bit into I was, I was
really curious about the history

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and I guess the of gambling and
corruption.

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I always have loved, you know,
the mafia type scene and the

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people that kind of take, you
know, take their own ways in

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society and, you know, choose to
live by their own standards.

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And so that's why I found you to
begin with.

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But then you, you know, when
what you and I were talking in

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our instructor recall, we got
into conflict resolution, which

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is the most recent part of your,
I guess, career or the most

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recent phase and a little bit of
the EMT stuff.

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So I kind of want to touch on a
little bit of everything.

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But yeah, tell me a little bit
about yourself.

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Oh, yeah.
So my, my name is Dave Schwartz.

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I grew up in Atlantic City, NJ.
That's I guess where I got

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interested in casinos.
I was just, I was born at a time

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where some of my earliest
memories was them imploding some

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of the old hotels.
So made a big impression to me

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as a kid and seeing the new
casinos open up.

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So a lot of my academic work was
or is trying to figure out, you

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know, why they would do this and
why does gambling have such

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power to to destroy and rebuild?
Yeah, yeah.

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And when, and I mean, I'm sure
that you could delve into this

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from a million different
perspectives psychologically and

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culturally and, you know,
societally and even in terms of

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I bet different economic classes
I'm sure have different patterns

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and, and behaviors.
You know what are What are some

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things that have surprised you
that you figured out along the

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way?
Yeah, You know, a lot of it's

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just that this impulse to gamble
seems pretty innate for a lot of

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people.
You know, some people have the

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gambling gene, some people
don't.

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And who knows, it might be
something, you know, I think a

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lot of it goes back to our need
for risk.

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You think back about humans and
evolution, all that we evolved

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in a hunter gatherer lifestyle
where there's a lot of

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unpredictability.
So it makes sense that we would

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kind of be hooked on risk and
hooked on the unknown and not

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knowing what's going to happen.
And gambling is 1 one way to

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indulge that hook.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

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I think it's, I think that
people are also attracted and

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especially the way that it's
presented with the notion of

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investing a little for the
potential of making a lot.

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And so you feel like you're not
losing that much and you know,

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this experience that you're
going to partake in, hey, you

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know what, it's an experience
and it's a fun time.

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And even if I lose 5/10/20
bucks, you know, like it was

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worth the potential and the
excitement and the experience of

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being able to get that $500
payout, that $100 payout,

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whatever it is, you know?
Yeah.

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And and some of it also has to
is more social where it's about

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bonding together with people.
You know, think about games like

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poker, think about football
pools and stuff like that and

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brackets and things like that.
So there there are a lot of

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motivations that people could
have.

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Yeah, Yeah.
I think the one of the cooler

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things that's happened is the
development of how gambling has

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kind of or how technology has
kind of wrapped its tentacles

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around around gambling.
You know, because this, and it's

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funny because, and I'm sure
you've talked a lot, I'm sure

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you've thought a lot about this
or people have asked you about

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this.
But this whole Chauncey Bill

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UPS, you know, recent NBA fed,
you know, I guess arrest, you

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know, in the whole, the whole
story over here.

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I was listening to a podcast
about it and one thing that

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people were talking about was
how, how parlay bedding made it

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so easy to become corrupt for,
for athletes.

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You know, that like you can like
really morally justify to

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yourself to say, if my team's up
10 and you know, the spread is

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on me getting 5 rebounds and I,
you know, and I got my 5

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rebounds and my team's going to
win anyway.

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And everyone, you know, it
doesn't hurt anyone.

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Let me say my toe hurts.
Let me say, I pull the

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hamstring, let me sit and, and
everyone I know collect a couple

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100,000, you know, a couple
$1000, you know.

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So I thought that's it's cool
how the development of gambling

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has kind of kept up with times.
Yeah.

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And that's kind of a, again,
it's sort of a universal

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something kind of fascinating
that I've seen in studying the

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history of gambling where you
look at the Paleolithic era,

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you've got the, the way they
gamble is pretty much with dice

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made out of the, they call them
hucklebones, or it's actually

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the talus, which is part of the
ankle anklebone of goats and

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sheep.
So you've got that which is kind

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of more primitive.
You have the Neolithic era come

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in, which is ground stone
technology.

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Snower does not just doing like
Flint mapping.

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We're doing ground stone
technology, which also sounds

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like it would be a good kind of
bread like ground stone and

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split sweet bread.
But it's a it's a form of litho

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technology, I think.
And you now have the development

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of ivory dice.
They're cubicle, they're shaved

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down in the cubicles cubes
shaving the cubicles shaving not

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not working some drone job there
in cubes, not chemicals.

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So yeah, you have that
evolution.

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You look at the development of
block printing in Asia in like

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around the year of 1011 hundred
that eventually develops into

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playing cards, which was a new
technology that hit Europe, you

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know, about 200 years later.
So you every also another one

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that people maybe don't think
about so much these days, but

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was very important at the times
the Telegraph.

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The Telegraph was used for
gambling, for sending horse race

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information.
And that was really.

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And yeah, I like to argue that
was the first remote

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entertainment in, at least in
the United States, where you

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could go to what they call the
pool room or horse room and sit

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there and the announcer would be
reading the description of the

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race.
So you it, you know, before

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there was radio, before there
was TV, it was this remote

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entertainment and you could
batten it and people got really

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excited.
So yeah, gambling has really

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always moved with technology.
So it's not surprising it's

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still doing that today.
Not at all.

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That's so cool.
And it's such an interesting

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point that you brought up about
also the development of what our

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what we can even use to gamble,
you know, like it makes me

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think, you know, I mean, I
guess, I guess that would even

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further emphasize that the
notion that it is deeply

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ingrained in human nature, that
it's not something that just

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arose from circumstance, you
know, oh, we just happen to have

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something around.
So we find a way to do it.

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Like we're actively looking for
whatever tools we have, however

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primitive we have, however
advanced, we have to find a way

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to participate in this, you
know?

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Yeah, I think so.
You know, I think realizing that

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is this innate human impulse for
a lot of folks, probably not for

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everybody, but for a lot of
folks, I think can help us

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understand it a little bit
better.

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Yeah, yeah.
So, so I want to talk hopefully

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a bunch about the history of
gambling at least in the States

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because, but I mean, I'm happy
to actually go like I'm very

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interested everything you just
said in terms of the cars and

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the dice and everything.
But you know, I was recently

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originally reaching out about
was so gambling I know today is

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generally reserved for Native
Americans unless the state that

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you're in makes it legal.
Is that correct?

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Somewhat.
I mean, it's definitely a

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complicated story.
Pretty much as the United States

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developed gambling regulation is
a power that's reserved to the

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states.
So if the state says it's

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illegal, it's illegal.
So in Utah, for example, there

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is no gambling because the state
says this is legal.

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You know, in some states there
are, you can have a compact

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between the state and tribes
which would allow for what they

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call class 3 gambling or, you
know, full scale gambling.

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You also have Class 2 gambling
and other states, you know, but

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basically a lot of it, since
it's left of the state, each

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state determines what they want.
And you know, some states it's

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everything.
Some states it's some things.

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Right.
So how did organized crime get

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involved in like when, when,
let's say with Vegas, right,

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which is the most famous and
notorious case, You know,

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obviously Vegas, the state of
Nevada made it legal to gamble.

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And then the mafia folk moved in
and started their operation.

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Or did they pull some strings to
make the to, to let the state,

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you know, to pressure the state
to make it legal?

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How'd that work?
It's a complicated story, so let

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me go back to not quite the
beginning.

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And if you could you would you
like a little history lecture

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here?
Please, please.

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Yes, definitely.
About the origins of organized

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crime in the United States.
Absolutely.

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I would love.
That So basically, let's go

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back, let's go back like 300
years.

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So now we're in 1725, OK, There
is no organized crime because

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there is no organized police.
You know, in this era, pretty

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much, you might have the night
watchman, you might have the the

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constable.
Sometimes if your house got

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robbed, you have to pay somebody
to try to track them down.

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There really was no need for
organized crime.

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Then Fast forward to the 1830s.
There's a wave.

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You have more people moving into
cities.

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You have the breakdown of the
old systems of Labor.

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You know where let's say, you
know, again, back in the 18th

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century, at least early 18th
century, somebody made shoes.

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You have the Shoemaker and
Shoemaker would have journeyman

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and an apprentices living in his
house with him and his family.

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There's very close surveillance
there.

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You then have the rise of the
market revolution and factories

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and stuff like that.
Workers are no longer living

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with their bosses.
They're just doing what they

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want.
You also have reactions against

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immigration from places like
Ireland to the US If you've ever

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seen the movie Gangs of New
York, it is a very accurate

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depiction of this.
Yeah.

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So that opening scene, the the
battle of the five Points there,

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it's very, it's very accurate
and based in actual characters

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too.
So yes, so in you because of

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stuff like that, because there's
things like race riots,

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religious riots and things like
that.

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People say, whoa, you know, we
want to have people with

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uniforms and guns telling other
people what to do.

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London is one of the they they
have the Metropolitan Police of

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the bobbies in in London that
are adopted there.

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And that's the model.
I think Boston has a first.

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I think Boston has a first
professional police force, but I

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could be wrong in that.
But basically it spreads around

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the country. 1840s, eighteen
50s.

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Now you have people
professionally trying to fight

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crime.
So you now need to organize

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crime.
So that's the birth of organized

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crime in the United States, and
it's around a lot of things.

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But one of the things that
people like to do that was

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either illegal or not quite
legal was gambling.

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And gambling really was the
ideal crime for organized crime

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because it wasn't that socially
stigmatized.

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You know, there's a difference
between like, hey, yeah, I give

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people black tar heroin and
like, help school kids shoot up

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and stuff versus, yeah, you
know, I'm going down there and

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I'm a bookie and I'm taking
baths at the bar after work,

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after the factory gets off work.
So yeah, there's a big

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difference with that.
So it's generally tolerated and

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it's generally pretty popular.
So there's a lot of that

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development going on in the 19th
century.

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Again, if you watch Gangs of New
York, a really great example

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there.
And again, that's based on the

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book by Herbert Asbury called
Gangs in New York, That is a

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great source.
In the Gilded Age, it gets

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bigger, it gets more organized.
You have syndicates forming and

226
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,000
they're basically solving, you
know, sort of dividing, dividing

227
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,240
the pie in a lot of different
ways.

228
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,120
You have technology like
telegrams.

229
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,760
Then in 1920, you have the
passage of the Volstead Act,

230
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,480
which causes prohibition, so
it's no longer legal to drink.

231
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,040
Suddenly you got a bunch of more
hungry guys.

232
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:46,760
Yeah, who suddenly again, it's
guys in their early 20s, teens

233
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:51,240
and early 20s, maybe up to 30,
and they jump in and they are in

234
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:56,120
charge of bootlegging all kinds
of stuff with liquor.

235
00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,000
And they're young, they're
hungry, they become very rich,

236
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,360
and they either take over or
join forces with the existing

237
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,600
gambling, you know, crying
people.

238
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,760
And that's how it happens.
Then 1933, prohibition is

239
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,280
rescinded.
They need something to do.

240
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,920
And a lot of them, hey, let's go
into gambling full time.

241
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:18,920
And many of them then in the 40s
and 50s, they're in their 40s

242
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,280
and 50s.
They're seeking respectability.

243
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,120
Well, hey, what business do I
know?

244
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,880
I know the gambling business
where it's legal, it's legal in

245
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,600
Nevada.
I better move out there.

246
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,840
So that's kind of in a in a
nutshell where that happened how

247
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:34,880
that.
Happened really, really cool.

248
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,560
It's really, really cool.
I would have, I guess I never

249
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:41,800
would have made that connection
between the first, you know, the

250
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,040
first, I guess, implementation
of some kind of legal force,

251
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,600
right, with organized crime.
Because I mean, you know, I

252
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,240
mean, I, I mean, do you know the
shows, have you watched the

253
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:59,880
Taylor Sheridan shows, you know,
1919241892, whatever it's

254
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:04,640
called, They're great shows.
American Primeval was also a

255
00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,880
great show.
But all these great shows are,

256
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,440
you know, really highlight and
emphasize that the lawlessness

257
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,920
of what the of what the world
was, of what the country was.

258
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:17,640
Yeah.
If someone shot someone else.

259
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,120
Well, I'm really sorry about
that, man.

260
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,880
You know, that stinks.
Yeah, that's the extent of it.

261
00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:23,560
There's no FBI knocking down
your door.

262
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,560
There's no news, you know,
caster or podcast to go on and

263
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,760
emphasize that, you know, and
talk about it and try to try to

264
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,000
oust them.
You know, you got to, you got to

265
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,920
kind of make your own justice or
move on with your life.

266
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:41,200
You know, So I got and I, I
think the root of at least the

267
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,640
Italian mafia for my
understanding was, you know,

268
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,560
that feeling like a government
was not protecting and

269
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,920
supporting people the way that
the people, the original people

270
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,680
felt they should have.
So they wanted to look for

271
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,880
another, for another form of, I
guess self governance or

272
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:56,320
protection.
Yeah, it's been.

273
00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,840
It's been somewhat romanticized
because there's been a lot

274
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,080
written about that.
You know, basically it is sort

275
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,560
of this extra legal force, which
is awesome.

276
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,200
If you're like, hey, you know,
the government's being mean to

277
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:09,520
me.
I need somebody to step in.

278
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,560
But also they now have the power
to say, hey, look, you know, you

279
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,080
want to run your candy store, we
need $100 a week where you're

280
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:21,240
going to have problems.
So it's not always as beneficial

281
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,120
as it's made to seem.
And it's kind of interesting

282
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,800
too, because a lot of people's,
you know, point of reference for

283
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,200
this and pop culture is The
Godfather by Mario Puzo.

284
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,560
And, you know, in the book, the
Godfather isn't quite, you know,

285
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:40,160
he even though he was based in
part on Puzzo's mom, he found

286
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,920
when he was right, like that was
that was his, you know,

287
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,480
emotional emphasis of it.
He wasn't he, he was he was kind

288
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:47,840
of shady.
He did some stuff.

289
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,960
So it's kind of interesting, you
know, and just look the way he,

290
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,520
and if I can digress here for a
second, you know, opening scene,

291
00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:01,040
you know, you've got the
undertaker who wants justice for

292
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,520
his daughter.
You've got the Baker who wants,

293
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,680
they also kind of wants justice
for his daughter in a way, wants

294
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,880
a favor to get the Italian
prisoner of war here so he can

295
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,560
marry the daughter.
He does the he does the job for

296
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:16,560
the undertaker for free to keep
him in his debt.

297
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,320
His friend who grew up in the
same village as him, that the

298
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,520
Baker who's always been loyal,
always has paid dues to the

299
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,680
union.
He charges him $2000 and the

300
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,000
Baker gladly pays it.
So it's kind of interesting how

301
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,520
like, yeah, he's awesome, but
he's not in this for, he's not

302
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,080
in it for funsies.
He wants his cut.

303
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,680
So yeah, I think that's it's
just fascinating.

304
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:43,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I forgot the story is Donnie

305
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,640
Brasco and Johnny, what's his
name?

306
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,960
Pistone Pistone.
Joe Pistone.

307
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,560
You know that reading that book,
you know, about the wise guys

308
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,960
and then, you know, watching The
Sopranos and then watching, you

309
00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,360
know, any of these shows and you
realize that like it's so it's

310
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,040
not a particularly great way of
living.

311
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,920
You know, like it's not a
particularly, you know, like you

312
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:11,440
live large while you can and
then you try to maintain that

313
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,560
living large and it just becomes
harder to do.

314
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,880
And then eventually all kind of
just collapses on itself.

315
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,400
And, you know, and, and the
entire time you're lucky if you

316
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,920
get ahead for a couple of years,
but there's very little

317
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:23,280
distance.
There's very little like in

318
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,440
terms of, you know, the extent
of how long you could last on

319
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,800
top or even in that level, you
know.

320
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,280
And yeah, and it's, you know,
generally not happy or easy, you

321
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,840
know, for the most part.
Yeah, so it is romanticized, but

322
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:38,720
again, it certainly is its
downside.

323
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,080
Yeah, I'm really curious what
people find so attractive about

324
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,000
it, other than maybe just like
everyone loves the idea of the

325
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,120
guy that doesn't play by
everyone else's rules or the

326
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:48,320
people that don't play by the
guy's rules.

327
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,880
And I think our fantasy is like,
oh, I'd be best friends with the

328
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,680
mob boss, not I'd be paying, you
know, protection money to the

329
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,240
mob boss and kind of grudgingly
and, like, all right, all right,

330
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,000
you know, So yeah, it's kind of
interesting.

331
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,280
Yeah, yeah.
So, so they so they come to

332
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,520
Vegas and and I know there's
generally the Jewish and the

333
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,120
Italian mafia were primarily the
people that were running that

334
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:13,800
right.
How'd they get along?

335
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,560
You also had a lot of local
folks, and it's kind of this

336
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,840
fusion of the locals, you know,
in Nevada.

337
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,560
And then you have the people
moving in from out of town as

338
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,360
well, and they really have an
understanding where the idea

339
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,960
was, hey, look, whatever's going
to make Vegas build up Vegas,

340
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,280
make Vegas grow, that's good.
And, you know, just don't cause

341
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,240
any trouble here and you'll be
fine.

342
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,080
And it worked well for a lot of
people.

343
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,480
Yeah, so they all got along for
the most part.

344
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,400
Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
You know, obviously there's

345
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,720
going to be tension around some
things, but pretty much it was

346
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,840
it was agreement like, hey,
let's like the rising tide lifts

347
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,520
all boats.
So yeah, let's just invite

348
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,360
people to come to town and build
casinos.

349
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,600
On the, on the notion of
conflict resolution, I was

350
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,920
actually, I was recording an
episode yesterday and with, with

351
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,360
a psychiatrist.
He's a very, very nice man, very

352
00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:09,000
sweet man.
And one thing they were talking

353
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:16,080
about was that conflicts tend to
start when the part when

354
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:18,680
individual parties feel like
there's not enough resources,

355
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,480
you know, and like, as long as
things are going well enough for

356
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,120
everyone, everyone's very happy.
And then as soon as, you know,

357
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,720
someone feels as though the
potential lifeline or, you know,

358
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,560
whatever that whatever, you
know, their, their resource,

359
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,000
their income is potentially
going to be compromised.

360
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,520
That's when things kind of go a
little downhill.

361
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,080
I'm sure for the first many,
many years of Vegas, there was

362
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,680
a, an abundance of money tourism
like, you know, and, and also

363
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,120
Vegas wasn't Vegas, you know,
like it was, you know, it was

364
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,200
relatively cheap to build up, at
least at the beginning, for my

365
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,240
understanding.
And it was just a money printing

366
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,120
factory, you know.
And so I'm sure that a lot of

367
00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:59,120
the tensions started happening,
you know, or at least even, you

368
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:02,200
know, the removal of the mafia
or organized crime within it

369
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,160
when people started detecting,
hey, we, you know, we have a lot

370
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,400
of hotels and casinos around
here and resources are getting

371
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:09,840
low and there is more
competition.

372
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,360
Do is there a trend like that
that you've never that you've

373
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:14,480
ever noticed?
I'm going to yes, end you with

374
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,040
the conflicts.
I also also do improv so I'm

375
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:18,720
going to pull out my SN card
here.

376
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,680
Yes, excellent.
Yeah, it can arise from from

377
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,360
limited resources, but it also
arises from from unmet

378
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:30,200
expectations.
So, you know, for example, I in

379
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,240
an organization, you, you can
have people making six figures

380
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,880
whose jobs aren't threatened and
yet they find themselves in

381
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,480
conflict with each other.
And you know, I find a lot of

382
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,720
times it's if you think about
Maslow's hierarchy of needs with

383
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,640
the physiologic safety, I forget
the other one.

384
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,160
And then self actualization.
And a lot of times it's around

385
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,720
self actualization issues.
Like, you know, I want to, I

386
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,760
want this honor, but they won't
give me this honor.

387
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,440
I want to do this work, but they
won't fund my work to do this.

388
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,240
So it's kind of interesting what
people can get in the conflict

389
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,480
about pretty much anything, you
know.

390
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,200
So resources does have a big
part to do, but I would say it's

391
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,600
also to a large part unmet
expectations, especially in the

392
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,440
workplace.
Especially in the workplace.

393
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,600
But yeah, it'd probably be a lot
less polite to each other if,

394
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,200
you know, we didn't have food.
I think we, I think I've heard

395
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,120
it said like we're we're four
meals away from anarchy, like

396
00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:24,240
civilization.
I've heard that somewhere, don't

397
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,120
know where.
But yeah, I mean, so conflict

398
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,920
can be resources, but also I
find a lot unmet expectations,

399
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,320
which is why when I work with
people, I've got a can you see

400
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,120
the sign here?
You can't see the sign here.

401
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:38,440
I got to sign this out of my
office.

402
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,160
It says in addition to the what
will make you happy sign, it

403
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,160
says, what are your unmet
expectations?

404
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,040
Like what what do you need from
other to kind of what make you

405
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:48,120
happy?
What do you need?

406
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,320
And when people can't articulate
that we need to stop and really

407
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,520
think, OK, well, why, why are
you upset here?

408
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,520
Isn't being.
There it's really, really

409
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,040
interesting, really, really,
really fascinating because I

410
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,280
don't think, you know, there are
certain questions that are

411
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:11,240
really useful to, you know, to
ask yourself.

412
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,440
You know, for example, I, I
teach high school part time.

413
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,400
And yesterday and a couple of
days ago I gave my students a

414
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,520
prompt.
If you didn't have to work ever,

415
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,320
you woke up tomorrow with all
the $5 billion, you know, yeah,

416
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:24,280
what are you going to do the
rest of your life?

417
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,640
And then the it's, it's two-part
question, right?

418
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,800
So the first part was that and
the second part was now that now

419
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,880
that you gave me the dumb answer
about what you would do for the

420
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,960
first six months, what are you
going to do for the next 50

421
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,560
years of your life?
You know, because like most

422
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,800
people think, well, I'll buy a
car and I'll, you know, go

423
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,280
travel the world and I'll give a
bunch to charity and I'll buy,

424
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,720
I'll retire my parents.
I'm like, you'll be 20 by the

425
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,560
time you're done with that, you
know, like, what are you going

426
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,200
to do, you know, to the age of
100.

427
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,960
And so the question of what do
you find meaningful in your life

428
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,800
or what do you find, you know,
what's the purpose in your life?

429
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,920
That's a very fun like, it's not
a, it's an important question

430
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:01,360
that's not very complicated to
get to.

431
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:04,640
But I don't think we, we ask
ourselves often enough in a

432
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,200
similar sense, what are your
unneed expectations?

433
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,760
Like what are you looking for in
your, you know, what are you

434
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,320
looking for in your life?
And if you don't know, doesn't

435
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,120
that like, wouldn't it be
really, really useful to have

436
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:18,400
something to kind of direct your
efforts and energy energies

437
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,560
toward, you know?
Yeah, which is my other tough

438
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,880
question I ask people, which is
what outcome do you want?

439
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,440
You know, so they'll be in a
dispute with somebody else, say,

440
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,640
what outcome do you want?
Do you want them to change their

441
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,040
behavior?
Do you want an apology?

442
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,240
Do you want to get them fired?
Like what do you want?

443
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:36,320
What do you usually hear from
that?

444
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:37,960
Is there a common?
Is there a more common answer?

445
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,400
I will say this is a question
that usually stops people like

446
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,680
what they really have to think.
I'm like, OK, think about it,

447
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,480
you know, and I only need an
answer now.

448
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:50,640
But if you don't know what you
want, you're pretty much

449
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,000
guaranteed not to be happy.
And, you know, like, just make

450
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,600
clear what your expectations are
going into this.

451
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,960
Like, yeah, I want this.
I want XI will be satisfied with

452
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,760
Y, but I definitely don't want
Z.

453
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,960
It just makes it way better.
And a lot of it is just trying

454
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:08,680
to break it down.
And OK, let's break this down

455
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,000
into small pieces.
What can we change?

456
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,520
What can we not change?
What can we, what can we put up

457
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,720
with?
Yeah, you pretty much want to go

458
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,960
there.
So can you tell me a little bit

459
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,080
how you got into this whole
conflict resolution industry?

460
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,880
Because I think it's super cool
and I think we live in a world

461
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,240
today that it's probably the
most useful skill that you can

462
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,120
have with social media and news
and the world as polarized as it

463
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:37,040
is.
How'd you get into it, and when

464
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,280
and how are you hoping to apply
it?

465
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,480
Yeah, so I was doing the
academic thing.

466
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,600
I had a tenure rank of a
professor and all that.

467
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,080
I answered a lot of the
questions I had about gambling,

468
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:50,760
you know, history.
I kind of answered a lot of

469
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,360
those questions and was looking
for something new.

470
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,440
Went into the administration
here at UNLV, University of

471
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:02,840
Nevada, Las Vegas, where I work
and liked it, but then went to a

472
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,400
development day session.
And there, there were

473
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,800
development day and there was a
session on mediation.

474
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,880
And it just absolutely blew my
mind with a, a teacher and

475
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,520
mediator named Margaret Crowley.
And this just totally blew my

476
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:16,760
mind.
It's like, wow.

477
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,920
So I enrolled in the 40 hour
course they had on our law

478
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:27,120
school, which Professor Crowley
also taught and so became

479
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:30,880
trained as a mediator.
And a little while later, and

480
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,040
that was in January of 2020.
And then something big happened

481
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,880
in February, March of 2020.
So there was the the pandemic

482
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,600
hit and then when we were
coming, when we were on the

483
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,680
other side of that, the
university announced they were

484
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,760
bringing back the ombuds office.
And I applied, I was selected

485
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:54,120
and I just threw myself into
that, you know, kind of learning

486
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:56,680
how to do ombuds work.
You know, an ombuds does

487
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,960
informal conflict resolution for
people.

488
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,840
That's how I would explain it in
a single sentence for the

489
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,200
International Ombuds Association
we have.

490
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,920
And you can see how much I care
about it because I keep the code

491
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,400
of ethics and standards of
practice right next to my desk

492
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,760
at all times right there.
So I can see it.

493
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,240
Hopefully I'm centered again.
Hang on a second, let me see.

494
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,960
Yep, that's not bad.
So basically they're

495
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,600
independent, informal, meaning
they don't keep records, you're

496
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,200
not part of formal processes.
They're impartial, they don't

497
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,960
take sides, and they're
confidential.

498
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:27,960
So people can pretty much tell
you anything.

499
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,520
There's No Fear that you're
going to tell somebody else.

500
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,200
So it really is different.
And you know, for me, a lot of

501
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:40,880
it involved just abandoning any
preconceptions I had and jumping

502
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,480
into this.
And you know, no, you're not

503
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,400
solving people's problems there.
You know, you're helping them

504
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,280
solve their, they are solving
their problems.

505
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,400
You are just kind of kind of in
video game.

506
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,880
In the video game stuff is like
you're the NPC, you know, I'm

507
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,920
this little vendor back in town,
like hey, you want to buy a new

508
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,440
axe or something?
You're the one out there going

509
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,600
out and having those adventures.
I'm not having the adventures.

510
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,440
Wow.
So and who tends to come in?

511
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,880
What kind of friends?
Is it business partners?

512
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:09,760
Is it couples?
What?

513
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,920
Who tends to come in?
Well, here because it's a

514
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,840
university, it's pretty much
university folks.

515
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,360
So it could be anything.
You know, generally everybody

516
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:18,400
has has conflicts, but I think
it's good.

517
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,080
I also do mediation for the
Neighborhood Justice Center here

518
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,560
in Clark County, which sound
like Neighborhood Justice

519
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:25,800
Center.
It sounds like some kind of

520
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,320
vigilante thing or something.
But it's, you know, it's

521
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,960
basically through the court and
it's just a way for people to

522
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,760
mediate and you could have all
kinds of people trying to

523
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,080
mediate anything.
Could be like a pet issue, could

524
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,240
be landlord tenant, could be
contract stuff.

525
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,360
So pretty much anything.
And you know, my, my personal

526
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:47,680
philosophy as a mediator is
that, you know, they're the ones

527
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,000
basically the mediator just
guides the process.

528
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,920
The parties are the one driving
everything.

529
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,880
And I also feel like if one of
the parties drives home and is

530
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,200
thinking like, wow, that
mediator said something really

531
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,440
clever, I've done a terrible job
because they should be think

532
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,080
they should be focusing them.
It's like kind of like in

533
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,880
sports, you know, if you know
who the umpire or the referee

534
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,880
is, they might not be doing the
best job.

535
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,160
You know, you just want them to
kind of be invisible.

536
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,920
And that's how you feel about
mediators too, where it's not

537
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,840
all about them, it's really
about the parties.

538
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,840
I think a lot of people approach
good therapy like that, too.

539
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,160
I've heard that people describe
good therapists as people that

540
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,320
don't.
You know that they're not

541
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,600
answering the questions for you.
They're prompting you to get

542
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,040
yourself to the right place.
Yeah, because like you think

543
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,160
about it, let's say, first of
all, as a mediator or as an

544
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,760
ombuds, am I ever going to know
everything about the situation?

545
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,480
No, no.
So number one, I have imperfect

546
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,920
knowledge #2 I've got all my own
biases and assumptions and stuff

547
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,400
I bring with it #3 I'm probably
at a different place than they

548
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,400
are in life.
So, you know, and you know, as

549
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,640
ombuds, a lot of times people
ask me, what would you do?

550
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,080
I'm like, it's not about what I
would do, what you could do.

551
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:02,840
What do you want to do?
And you know, like, don't ask me

552
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,520
what I would do because I'm a
very different person from you.

553
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,640
I may have a very different
tolerance for tolerance for

554
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,640
risk.
So yeah, don't, don't ask me.

555
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,720
So yeah, I'm just realizing the
people are pretty smart.

556
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,000
They know what they're doing and
just help them guide them in

557
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,000
some way.
Yeah, I feel again, with my

558
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,320
experience as a high school
teacher and as I've tried to

559
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,840
become a better husband and
father through the last couple

560
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:41,240
of years, one thing I've really
learned is to is that people

561
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,280
generally have a really good
sense of themselves, but they

562
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,680
kind of have to be prompted or
reminded to think about it, you

563
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,320
know?
So a lot of times, you know, my

564
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,600
student will, if a student ask
me something, I'll be like,

565
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,520
well, why, Why are you asking me
this?

566
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,360
Are you asking me this because
you want me to tell you yes or

567
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,600
no?
Do you want to like hear this

568
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,480
out?
You want to ask me this because

569
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,960
you, you want something like,
what do you want out of this

570
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,080
conversation?
And a lot of times they'll end

571
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,440
up answering themselves, here's
what I'm looking for.

572
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:14,960
And I'm like, well, it sounds
like you already know what you

573
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,200
want.
You know, I mean, I'm happy

574
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,400
that, you know, if you want me
to help getting there, you want

575
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,920
to talk through, you know how to
do it, that's great.

576
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,360
But you know, like I would, I,
I, I, I try my best to help

577
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:30,160
people be again, I like what you
said.

578
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,000
You're not me, I'm not you.
Let's not impose ourselves on

579
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,120
other people.
Let's see what they have to,

580
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,560
what to say or what to offer and
help help bring that to to

581
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,040
fruition.
Yeah, exactly.

582
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,640
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, really cool, really

583
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,680
cool.
So, so I wanted, I wanted to

584
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,560
also talk a little bit about the
Rat Pack.

585
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:55,640
I saw you wrote a book about
them and there there's something

586
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,240
immortal about that, about that
crew.

587
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,080
There's something however, you
know, so I was talking to a

588
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,680
friend of mine the other day and
I was like, however long Vegas

589
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,600
lasts, you know, is standing is
however long Frank Sinatra is

590
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,400
going to be be alive, you know,
because they're they're so you

591
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,040
know, they're so they're so
ubiquitous.

592
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,120
They're just like they're so
connected that like, you know

593
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:22,360
it.
How'd that happen?

594
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,040
What was their what was their
story like?

595
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,200
Who were they and what was their
association with Vegas that made

596
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,960
them so connected in such a
strong way?

597
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,000
Oh, I got some stuff about this.
So, yeah, the story time here.

598
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:40,040
Let's do it.
So basically we'll go back Frank

599
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,040
Sinatra, you know, legendary
singer from New Jersey.

600
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,640
Yeah, Yeah, just as legendary
career.

601
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,920
It is ups and downs, you know,
very popular 30s, early 40s,

602
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,600
very popular then late 40s.
Career is a little bit of a

603
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,360
nosedive.
Acting career.

604
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,480
Acting, yeah, but that hadn't
quite taken off.

605
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,040
But yeah, his musical careers,
kind of.

606
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,960
She had been the Bobby Soxers
before the war, after the war,

607
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,120
the Bobby Soxers have grown up.
And, you know, nobody knows what

608
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,080
his appeal is.
And he, he plays Vegas at the

609
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,720
desert.
And it's like, that's OK October

610
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:24,120
of 1953, the Sands is a little
bit less than a year old, and he

611
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,400
plays the Sands in the Copa room
for the first time.

612
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,520
And he did something different.
And just again, to bring us back

613
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,840
at the time, you know, the, the
status quo then for Vegas shows

614
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,200
was a lot like vaudeville, which
was an entertainment, you know,

615
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,520
from the 19th to the early 20th
century.

616
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,440
It was eventually supplanted by
by motion pictures.

617
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,400
You know, vaudeville would have
a lot of different performance.

618
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,560
You'd have a comedian, a
juggler, dancers, all kinds of

619
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,400
stuff.
So if you went to a Vegas show,

620
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,600
you know, so let's say we're
going to see Mario Lanza

621
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,280
headline at the El Rancho Vegas.
I don't know if he ever did.

622
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,160
I just kind of threw or like,
yeah, I'm blanking on all the

623
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,640
people who headlined the El
Rancho Vegas.

624
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,160
I used to know all this.
But since we're seeing him or

625
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,600
whoever, OK, we have the
comedian come out to start, then

626
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,640
the dancers, then maybe an
animal act, then maybe somebody

627
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,440
else.
Like in every Scorsese.

628
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,120
We'll get the headliner for
about 20 minutes.

629
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,920
Headliner will come out, do some
songs, 20 to 30 minutes Zoom.

630
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,080
They're done, thank you, done
and dusted, as they, as they say

631
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,480
on the other side of the pond
there.

632
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,800
So Sinatra, there's a difference
is you know what?

633
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,240
No, you're going to get like an
hour of me.

634
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,040
We are going to have one opening
act and you're going to get an

635
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,880
hour of me.
It's kind of funny because one

636
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,200
of the reviews said, and like
for so many people today, they

637
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,200
were like, man, if I could go
back in time to see Frank

638
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,280
Sinatra at the height of his
palace in the Copa room in this,

639
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,560
you know, 500 seats and like
you're right down there.

640
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,200
Boom.
Like they won't give anything.

641
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,920
One of the reviewers said, well,
yeah, Sonata like for an hour,

642
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,560
which is great if you if you
like that kind of thing, if you

643
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,679
like.
But we wanted to see like the

644
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,239
the jugglers and stuff and
there's no jugglers.

645
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,239
So I want my money back for that
show which again it was like a 2

646
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,639
drink show so but really.
That's right.

647
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,000
Changed, but you know that that
was really different.

648
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,239
Yeah.
So at the same time he's in this

649
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,960
little movie called.
Oh man, I almost totally got

650
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,960
this mixed up.
He's in From Here to Eternity.

651
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,679
OK, which ended up he, I believe
he won the Oscar for that for

652
00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:42,679
supporting actor, you know, and
this of course, was

653
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,239
fictionalized a little bit in
The Godfather with Johnny

654
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,920
Fontaine and Jack Waltz.
And, you know, it's, it's hard.

655
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,440
I can't, you know, I don't even
have to act.

656
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,280
You know the book.
Was way better about the plot

657
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,920
than the movie was with Johnny.
Yeah, yeah, the horse's head,

658
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,720
all that fun stuff.
Good old Johnny Fontaine.

659
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,120
Yeah.
But yeah, where was I going with

660
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:06,720
that?
Yeah.

661
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:10,840
So basically that establishes
him in Vegas.

662
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,680
So now he's at the Sands.
He has an equity stake in the

663
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,040
stands.
He has he has stock, according

664
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,560
to some people.
And again, it's not like they

665
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,720
kept kept written records.
So can we prove it?

666
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,240
Who knows?
Supposedly he was holding the

667
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:27,200
points for people like Sam Gian,
but who knows, you know.

668
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,680
Anyway, on paper, at least, he's
an owner of the casino, part

669
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,440
owner.
OK Dean Martin, you know, Martin

670
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,240
and Lewis.
Dean Martin and Jenny Lewis, a

671
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,000
very big act, first came
together at the 500 Club in

672
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,520
Atlantic City, my hometown,
hometown Fried there.

673
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,320
That's when they that's when
they started working together

674
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,760
and they were huge movies and
stuff.

675
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:54,080
They played the Sands.
They split up and basically Dean

676
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,560
keeps the Sands in the divorce.
So Dean stays at the Sands.

677
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,280
I mean it wasn't literally a
divorce but they did split up.

678
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:02,720
Were they?
They were just handing out

679
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:05,120
equity to anyone that performed
there.

680
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:05,960
What was it?
How'd that?

681
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,400
Happen, right?
I mean, it was a more, it was

682
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,120
definitely for very special
people.

683
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,520
OK, gotcha.
And they're like, oh, so we want

684
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:13,840
you to come.
We want you to spend more time

685
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,360
here.
If you invest the time here,

686
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,840
we'll make it worth your while
by giving you a part time owner.

687
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,880
Or we need to get money to Sam
Giancana.

688
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,040
And this is a way that we can do
without one of the biggest

689
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,240
history.
There's the stuff that was

690
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:28,440
written down on paper and
there's the stuff that was

691
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,640
probably going on that we're
pretty sure was going on.

692
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,160
But we don't have the same
proof, you know, because

693
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:36,520
obviously they didn't keep
records of this because it was a

694
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,400
criminal conspiracy.
And, you know, as we know from

695
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,840
The Wire, you don't take notes
on a criminal conspiracy.

696
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,920
So another great HBO show, The
Wire.

697
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:52,920
So basically Dean is at the
Sands, then Sammy Davis Junior

698
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,360
comes at the Sands.
So by 1960 they're all there.

699
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,280
January of 1960, couple things
happen.

700
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,280
They start filming a movie
called Ocean's 11, which is

701
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,240
basically, you know, again,
they, they remade it many years

702
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:10,560
later, but it was pretty much,
it's a real document of the

703
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,720
times, pretty much just them
filming Sinatra and his buddies

704
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:16,800
hanging out.
And, you know, there's a plot

705
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,480
with the casino heist and all
that.

706
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,320
Great songs, great stuff.
And while they're doing this, Al

707
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,240
Freeman, who was a publicity
director of the Sands, has the

708
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:29,760
idea.
OK, Also backing up a second,

709
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,760
for a long time, like, let's say
Dean Martin was playing and

710
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,280
Frank happened to be in town.
He would come up and sing, you

711
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,080
know, when Judy Garland
performed, I think 59, you know,

712
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,040
Frank came out to support her
because he was a big fan.

713
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,120
So, you know, this has been
happening for a long time.

714
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,080
Al Freeman gets the idea.
Hey, wait a second.

715
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,560
We've got all three of these
guys here.

716
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:56,200
We're going to promote this as
the biggest thing in the history

717
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,880
of the universe since The Big
Bang.

718
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,080
Like, this is the biggest thing.
And like, yes, they never called

719
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:08,560
them the Rat Pack.
That was a gossip columnist who

720
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,720
called them the Rat Pack, who
Frank hated, who said terrible

721
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:16,080
things about, hated her.
Never called them a Rat Pack

722
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,480
either.
Sinatra wanted to call them the

723
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,680
clan, but that wasn't so great.
They called it the summit.

724
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,120
Or is that Eisenhower, Kennedy,
Eisenhower Gustav Summit that

725
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:27,320
was supposed to happen.
That didn't.

726
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,320
So it was like the summit, Frank
and his friends.

727
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,960
Yeah, whatever they called it.
But they, they would, they would

728
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,320
perform together.
You know, you also had had Joey

729
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,640
Bishop, Peter Lawford and a
bunch of other folks, Shirley

730
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,680
MacLaine.
You could do a whole chart.

731
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:44,920
You know, it's kind of like the
the NWO and the late 90s WCW

732
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,520
with all the people who are
coming and going in the Rat

733
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,040
Pack, although I don't think
they had a Rat Pack, Wolf Pack,

734
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:51,560
but that would have been quite
the idea.

735
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:53,160
Yeah.
Yeah.

736
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,680
There's some concept.
Ideology or like, you know, some

737
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,720
kind of, you know, formal like
club you know, that people could

738
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:02,000
join.
Yeah, so there's people kind of

739
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,400
there and yeah, like they would.
So they had the times where they

740
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,040
were booked together.
They also sometimes they would

741
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,000
just kind of crash each other's
shows and and have fun stuff.

742
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,360
You know, it all fell apart a
little bit later.

743
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:18,200
A couple things happened with
Frank Sinatra, kind of his

744
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,680
forceful abandoned his gambling
license because he was caught

745
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,640
hosting Sam Giancon and was a
alleged Chicago mobster up at

746
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,360
the Cal Neva in Tahoe.
He eventually leaves the sands

747
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,360
in 67.
He leaves the sands, I think.

748
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:35,560
Cash.
Is that what it just stops

749
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,360
forming?
He well, he got into a little

750
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,400
altercation with Carl Cohen, the
casino manager at the Sands

751
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,600
there a little altercation where
he got.

752
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,480
He's a notorious for his temper
whenever he felt like he was

753
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,880
having a bad night.
Yeah, and he wasn't, you know,

754
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,640
keep in mind, you know, Frank
was not really a physically

755
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,240
imposing guy.
Whereas Carl Cohen, who was the

756
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:00,640
casino manager of the Sands, a
lot of people said he was the

757
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,320
best casino manager in the
history of, of the Vegas casino

758
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,160
business, you know, was a
physically imposing guy, you

759
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:07,400
know, just imposing a lot of
way.

760
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,920
Also really, really smart guy,
great at game protection, great

761
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,520
at working with people, you
know, so they had that dust up.

762
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,000
Frank end up going to Caesar's.
Caesar's also ended up stealing

763
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,480
a lot of the Sands is Thunder
and the kind of the the crown

764
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,200
kind of moved to Caesar's
Palace.

765
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,520
After it opened in 66 and
that's, you know where you get

766
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:28,800
that?
And the Sans hung on for a long

767
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,360
time, did a lot of really cool
stuff, but eventually was

768
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:32,960
imploded and now is the
Venetian.

769
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:35,720
Right.
And, and, and and.

770
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:37,320
Caesars hung on for a long time,
too.

771
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,320
Caesars was the top of the
pyramid for for years, right?

772
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,560
Or decades.
Caesars Until The Mirage opened

773
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,560
the Caesar, Caesars was the
number one high end casino in

774
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,680
town.
So they're still, you know,

775
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,400
they're one of the most
recognized brand names in town.

776
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,320
Yeah, it's interesting that it
doesn't sound like Frank Sinatra

777
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,280
left on the best terms, but
everyone's still left.

778
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,000
Everyone's still like, I mean,
did everyone?

779
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,960
Oh, wait, was it a thing in
terms of, like, for example,

780
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,280
like, hey, management's
fighting, but like, you know,

781
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,600
the locals love him.
Or is it like you think of one

782
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,160
time to kind of come back around
to him or what was that?

783
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,000
Well, again, there's like layers
within layers within layers.

784
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,440
So at one level, OK, so one big
thing that happened in early

785
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:28,880
1967, Howard Hughes buys the
Sands and a lot of the old time

786
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,600
guys who had been part of the
original ownership syndicate

787
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,760
stay on.
You know, they're basically

788
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:37,520
managers who lived at the
casino, you know, so they stayed

789
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:42,920
on some of them and eventually
they they filter out, some of

790
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,320
them end up at The MGM Grand,
some of them end up other

791
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,920
places, some of them pass away.
So you kind of have this change

792
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,720
in ownership.
And it used to be, while it was

793
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:57,120
run as a very serious business,
they did not keep records in in

794
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,800
a lot of ways.
Also things like casino credit

795
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,600
were very personal.
So like, hey, if we know each

796
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,640
other and I know you're good for
it, you have credit.

797
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,680
You know, now they want to take
people's names and run their

798
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,240
credit report and stuff like
that.

799
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,640
So the alleged inciting incident
was Frank Sinatra.

800
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,040
And I do cover this in the book,
which is called At the Sands.

801
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:22,240
You know, Frank Sinatra performs
and some of the Apollo

802
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:25,840
astronauts are in town and see
the performance, and then he

803
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,520
wants to take them out on the
town and like, OK, let's go have

804
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,600
some fun of the casino.
So he goes down the casino,

805
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,160
says, hey, you know, pit boss,
give me 50,000 and chips.

806
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,880
Pit boss is like, I'm sorry,
Frank, I can't do it.

807
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:39,840
You know, the guys upstairs say
we can't do it.

808
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,000
So Frank has now been made to
look like a bum in front of the

809
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,520
Apollo astronauts.
He's livid.

810
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,840
He's screaming at people.
He's threatening people.

811
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,040
Apollo astronauts are like, you
know, peace out.

812
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,920
You know, I got a pretty early
morning tomorrow.

813
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:57,680
Oh, yeah, got it.
Got an early flight.

814
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,160
I think we're just going to call
it night.

815
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,200
So we want none of this.
They could have.

816
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,000
Yeah.
Yeah.

817
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,320
So I've actually had.
I've actually done a conflict

818
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:05,960
resolution for some gaming
folks.

819
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,000
Yeah.
Based on another Frank incident.

820
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:11,440
You know, basically it was
there, I hope.

821
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,720
You have a look at that one.
And like where, you know what is

822
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,520
Yeah, we, we it's a role play.
We're like, OK, you're Frank.

823
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,720
You're the gaming regulator.
You're this person.

824
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,600
It's kind of fun.
It's kind of a fun thing, sort

825
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,640
of like a murder mystery party.
But you're nobody gets murdered.

826
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,040
It's just somebody might lose
their minds.

827
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:32,000
So Frank goes home in Palm
Springs, comes back later and

828
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,720
gets in a fight with Carl Cohen.
So on one-on-one hand, it's.

829
00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:38,280
And Frank and Howard Hughes had
a history.

830
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,120
They were both rivals for Ava
Gardner.

831
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,880
Also, Hughes called Frank a
communist because Frank in those

832
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,800
days was a probably a little bit
more of the liberal side, so he

833
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,600
called communists.
So they, they, Hughes and

834
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,000
Sinatra did not love each other.
OK, so can.

835
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,800
I-1 real quick.
Sorry, I'm so sorry real just

836
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,040
quickly the content.
What did I know that, you know,

837
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,280
politics I, I'm trying to I, I,
I, I generally stay pretty

838
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,240
apolitical.
But politics throughout time

839
00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:10,480
change as what the values in the
spectrum of what they're, what

840
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,720
they're what, what it was.
What would be considered

841
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:17,320
left-leaning then was that that
was typically a little bit more

842
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,160
towards communism at that point,
right?

843
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:22,320
Wasn't, I would not know.
So Frank was not a communist.

844
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,000
His mom was pretty important in
the Democratic Party in North

845
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,720
Jersey.
So he is, I feel pretty

846
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:30,280
comfortable describing him as a
New Deal Democrat.

847
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,120
Believed in things like,
believed very strongly in things

848
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:39,800
like inclusive racial policies,
stuff like that, you know, and,

849
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:41,880
and had no tolerance for that
kind of bigotry.

850
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,720
So, yeah.
So today we probably would not

851
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,600
make him regular.
Not a communist.

852
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,880
So definitely not a communist.
And certainly, yeah, like, like

853
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,800
to make money and like to own
gas cars and things like that.

854
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,840
So, yeah, certainly not a
communist, but for Howard

855
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,280
Hughes.
So.

856
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,960
So at one level, that's the
issue, but there's another

857
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,120
level, too.
So if you think about Frank as

858
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,480
kind of the conduit for maybe
money back to certain parts of

859
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,000
the mob, now that Hughes is
owning the place, they can't do

860
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:14,480
what they were doing with
skimming the money.

861
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:15,840
They've got to move it somewhere
else.

862
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,760
What about Caesar's Palace?
So some people have said that

863
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,800
the whole thing was just AI
don't want to say an illusion,

864
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,960
but like, yeah, he wasn't.
It wasn't really that kind of

865
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,600
personal argument was a business
thing.

866
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,360
And like, yeah, some evidence
for that is some news of this in

867
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,840
Vegas broke Monday morning.
By mid Monday morning, he had a

868
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:38,960
signed contract at Caesar's
Palace.

869
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,160
Yeah, before the equity.
Yeah.

870
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,680
So what really went on?
Who knows?

871
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:46,800
Who knows that it's fascinating.
So that's.

872
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,160
Yeah.
I mean, so that was how Sinatra

873
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:51,600
ended up leaving the Sands.
It's quite.

874
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:56,520
AI guess.
Ostensibly, it's not too far out

875
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,040
to even say, like if you even if
you didn't want to go down that

876
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,480
path, it's not too far out to
say, hey, someone, I'm sure

877
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,840
everyone knew that there there's
a blow up and everyone wants

878
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,960
Frank Sinatra involved.
So it's, it's not too far of a

879
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,560
stretch to say, well, it could
just be that, you know, it's a

880
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:11,840
small town, everyone knows each
other.

881
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,520
And someone said, hey, man, if
you're not going to do them,

882
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,960
come to me, you know.
Yeah, yeah.

883
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,240
So it was not a it was not a
spur of the moment thing, I

884
00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:20,760
guess.
And, you know, you can speculate

885
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,400
who really benefited and all
that, but interesting stuff.

886
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,440
And Frank.
So Frank didn't have a gaming

887
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,640
license in the 80s.
He got his gaming license back.

888
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,400
Nancy Reagan was one of his
character witnesses.

889
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,320
So it's kind of funny how they
that and he ended up being

890
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,800
acclaimed in the gaming industry
once again in by the 80s.

891
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:46,080
So yeah, because here's why
Frank Sinatra was the best for

892
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,040
drawing gamblers.
So like, Elvis would draw

893
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:50,880
people.
Elvis had all those sell outs in

894
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,160
a row.
Sinatra would draw the gamblers.

895
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,120
Do they have any relationship
Elvis and Sinatra?

896
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,560
I mean not that I'm aware of.
I would guess they knew each

897
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,040
other but I don't think they
were like buddy buddy but who

898
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,480
knows different.
Have you, have you done a lot of

899
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,920
diving, a lot of work into Elvis
and his and his Vegas, some

900
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,760
stints and work and his
relationship with his manager?

901
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,720
Kind of superficially, but not
not to the extent that I have

902
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:20,440
with Sinatra.
I see.

903
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,320
I feel like people are in one
camp or the other, you know, a

904
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,560
lot of times.
But maybe it's like we have the

905
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,440
the peanut butter and banana
sandwich for lunch and the

906
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:34,080
marinara possum, you know that
we have that for in the brujols

907
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,160
or whatever for some maybe,
maybe we could do both.

908
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,600
Yeah.
Yeah, cuz that was I think what

909
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,600
Elvis.
Elvis is some stints there, or I

910
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,640
guess his residency there was in
the 60s.

911
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:52,520
Well, 769, you know, 69 after
the International Open, which is

912
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,160
now the West Gate, so 69 until
his death.

913
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,240
So yeah, that was a.
That's quite the thing.

914
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,920
And what how, how do you drive a
mob out of of Vegas?

915
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:06,640
How do you there's?
A couple ways, you know, so

916
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,240
basically a couple things
happened.

917
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,000
You know #1 and again, like I go
under this in the books.

918
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,360
If you look at it, they really
had, if we're both running

919
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,960
casinos and one of us is
affiliated with organized crime

920
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,120
and one of us isn't the one with
the organized crime connections

921
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,400
has some advantages #1
financing.

922
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,480
It's not the people running
banks were Puritans and didn't

923
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,680
in thought gambling was evil.
It's that casinos are really

924
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,760
risky businesses.
And you know, if you look at the

925
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,760
number of casinos that go
bankrupt, I mean it's constant.

926
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,720
You know, look at how many times
casinos go bankrupt.

927
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,120
You know, even though they're
offering negative expectation

928
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,920
gains, there are still a lot of
expenses they can get out of

929
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:48,760
control.
You know, today it's the debt

930
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,120
expense because a lot of
companies have taken on a lot of

931
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:56,120
debt that's hanging warm now
that they split the ownership of

932
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,960
the property in the operation.
The operators have rental

933
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,840
payment, rent payments to make.
So yeah, it's it's can be

934
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,080
heavily leveraged.
So it was too risky.

935
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,680
People connected with organized
crime knew the business, though,

936
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,800
and knew like, yeah, we can make
money from this.

937
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,760
You know, also, they knew how
they could skim money out of the

938
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:17,080
casino, take it back home.
Number one, you can get

939
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,880
financing #2 is how are you
going to market your casino, You

940
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,240
know, if you want to find the
gamblers.

941
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,760
So let's say we want to find the
gamblers in Cincinnati.

942
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,280
It's not like we're going to buy
ads and say, hey, gamblers come

943
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,320
to our casino.
We're going to go to somebody

944
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:31,960
who knows the gamblers in
Cincinnati.

945
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,280
And who's that going to be?
People were involved in gambling

946
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,760
in Cincinnati, which is
organized and illegal, therefore

947
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,480
organized crime.
So junket marketing is a second

948
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,160
one.
You know, third one is

949
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,680
interesting.
So it used to be, and under a a

950
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,840
British law called the Statute
of Anne that dates back to the

951
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,520
time of Queen Anne, gambling
debts could not legally be

952
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,720
collected.
Legally collected.

953
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,360
You could not.
So if you go, if you went to the

954
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:01,280
courts and said, hey, I lost
this much money to the OR this

955
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,520
guy lost his money to me playing
poker, you know, just like right

956
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,160
now, you couldn't go to court
and say, well, hey, I gave this

957
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,080
guy all those pure uncut cocaine
and he stiffed me.

958
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,600
You know, you can't sue for that
because it's illegal.

959
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,720
It's the same thing, you know,
And even when, when it became

960
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:22,080
legal, they didn't change that.
So we can't collect the debts

961
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,440
legally.
How else can we collect the

962
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:25,960
debts?
Yeah, sure.

963
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,920
You send Joe Pesci in.
Yeah, exactly.

964
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,880
Like new Caps, baseball bats and
stuff, Although usually, I mean,

965
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,600
that's very overrated.
The number one thing, that

966
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,160
number one force that led people
to pay off their gambling debts

967
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,760
was a mix pride and peer
pressure because people wanted

968
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,920
it known that they were, you
know, they were good for it.

969
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,240
So if you're a serious gambler,
like, yeah, my kids are

970
00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:53,720
starving.
We don't have heat in the

971
00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:56,160
apartment, but I paid off my
bookie.

972
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:59,360
Wow, That's like the that's the
pride.

973
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,960
Like, yes, I am a real man.
I settled my debts, you know,

974
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,680
again, even though my kids don't
have food, so.

975
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,200
It's.
More the peer pressure, I guess

976
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,560
for some people it would be the
the threat of violence.

977
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:13,280
Or even the addictive nature of
it.

978
00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:16,440
No meaning that you're so
addicted to the to the to the to

979
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,560
the high.
Then you know what that does

980
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,360
come before your food and rents.
You know that does come before

981
00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:23,840
you know your, your, your
payment to your kids, you know,

982
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,400
tuition or whatever it is.
Yeah, that's like the worst

983
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:27,720
thing.
It's like, oh, you won't be a

984
00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:29,560
guest here anymore.
That.

985
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:30,960
Would be, yeah.
That'd be the worst part of it,

986
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:31,880
yeah.
Yeah.

987
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,920
So, yeah.
So a lot of times, you know, it

988
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,880
wasn't I feel like maybe that's
been overstate a little bit

989
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,920
because yeah, that's that's
fine.

990
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,120
But the threat of it's still
there.

991
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,320
I mean, again, how many people
do you need to see with a broken

992
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,000
kneecaps to realize like, Oh
yeah, he's really serious.

993
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,600
I I better pay him his money.
Yeah, I don't know if you're

994
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,560
there's actually a really
interesting phenomenon in the

995
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,960
Jewish community and the
Orthodox Jewish community where

996
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,760
if the if someone wants to get
divorced, a husband has

997
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,800
according biblically has to
religion, You know, I guess

998
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,680
according to the the laws of the
Torah Bible, just the husband

999
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,520
gives it to the wife, The wife
can't just walk off.

1000
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:17,040
And but what they do, but what
the there's a whole organized

1001
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,240
organization within the
community that if a husband is

1002
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,040
taking advantage of his wife and
not and not doing that and they

1003
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:27,080
want a divorce, they'll go over
and they'll put they'll break

1004
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,400
his kneecaps, they'll get him to
do it, You know, and I don't

1005
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,600
think it's, you know, I think
that and it's funny because it

1006
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:35,240
says it has to be willingly
handed over.

1007
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,080
You know, it's like, well, how
is that willingly?

1008
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,200
It's like, because if it didn't
stop, then, you know, then it is

1009
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:42,520
his choice, you know, at a
certain point.

1010
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,400
But I think it's and, and you
know what you still have it to

1011
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:47,960
today too.
I don't know why there's

1012
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:49,720
something about, it's so
interesting.

1013
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:51,560
There's something
psychologically about violence

1014
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:53,600
that doesn't seem to necessarily
work on people.

1015
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,560
We know it with torture, with
the CIA and other countries.

1016
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,800
You know it with, you know, with
what you're, the way you're

1017
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,920
describing, a lot of times the
way to get people to bend is to

1018
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,720
actually just get them to kind
of see another side or to, you

1019
00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:09,040
know, to just open their eyes up
a little bit.

1020
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:11,920
Yeah, and bringing it back
around to conflict resolution,

1021
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,080
the workplace and stuff, You
know, fear is an excellent short

1022
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,480
term motivator.
And like when I'm doing a

1023
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,800
workshop, I like to tell people
like, hey, like if a leopard ran

1024
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,120
into this room, I bet we would
all run faster than we've ever

1025
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,720
run in our lives.
Like fear, excellent short term

1026
00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:29,080
motive.
You don't want to mess with a

1027
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,640
leopard or anything, but
leopards are the one that he

1028
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:36,720
faces.
What I've heard so but if like

1029
00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:39,080
it's a leopard every day,
eventually you're like what?

1030
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,840
So if the boss says, hey, if you
don't get this done, I'm going

1031
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,560
to fire you.
Oh my God, like for Oh my God, I

1032
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,160
don't want to lose my job if
they're doing it every day

1033
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:50,520
finally, like man, just fire me
already.

1034
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,880
Just get it over with so.
It's.

1035
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,880
Yeah, it's about making people
want to do things and kind of

1036
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,400
figuring out what are their
motivation, what do they want

1037
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,880
and, you know, helping them, you
know, like you said, reframing

1038
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:05,360
things sometimes is the best
way.

1039
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,440
Yeah.
The show that that, that, that,

1040
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,240
that, that that described this,
that whole process really well

1041
00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:13,920
was Homeland.
I don't know if you watched it.

1042
00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:17,080
It kind of trails off the last
two seasons.

1043
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,480
I think that, you know, like all
television shows for the four to

1044
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,160
five season or four to six
season, you know, peak if you're

1045
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,640
lucky.
I also completely forgot,

1046
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:31,560
completely tangentially,
television shows seasons used to

1047
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,800
be 20/20/25 episodes of season.
Yeah, and if it was an hour

1048
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,840
show, that's a ton of content.
I don't know how anyone was able

1049
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,440
to keep up a good story for more
than a few seasons.

1050
00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:45,080
If it's 20 hours or 25 hours of
television per season, that's

1051
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:46,440
crazy.
Yeah.

1052
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,320
You know, and that was just
because I was just, I was

1053
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,000
watching because I was watching
Homeland and it was it wasn't

1054
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,760
HBO.
But most of the long term form

1055
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,960
content that I, that I do
consume is typically HBO or

1056
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,680
Netflix.
Now Netflix kind of adopted

1057
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:05,720
that, you know, 6-7, six to 10
season, you know, arc.

1058
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,960
And then I went back and like,
how long am I watching this for?

1059
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:14,160
This is crazy.
But I guess, yeah, that timeline

1060
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,200
is really perfect.
But yeah, so as far as they do a

1061
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:23,560
really good job showing how
spying and Intel and the way

1062
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,000
that you get people to flip or
the way you get information out

1063
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:28,480
of anyone, the best way is to
treat them like a human being.

1064
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,760
And you constantly have these
guys coming in and being like,

1065
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,320
let's torture them.
And you be like, it's not going

1066
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:34,160
to work.
And then it doesn't.

1067
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,400
And then you just sit there and
give them a coffee and A food

1068
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,840
and some food.
And you say, we want to protect

1069
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,000
you and your family.
The way that it's going to

1070
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,440
happen is if you just talk to,
if you just work with us, you

1071
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:45,960
know, like we know that you want
to protect your family or your

1072
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,560
friends or your empire or
whatever it is, we'll help you

1073
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,320
do that.
Just talk you know, and it works

1074
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,600
way better.
Yeah, yeah, people need to be

1075
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,160
self motivated.
Yeah, definitely.

1076
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,960
How accurate was the movie
Casino or how, how you know just

1077
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,800
in terms of you know, the
culture or you know what was

1078
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,000
going on?
Very accurate.

1079
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,320
So, you know, as you may have
heard, the former mayor of Las

1080
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,000
Vegas, Oscar Goodman, who was
previously an attorney,

1081
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,240
represent a lot of folks
connected to organized crime and

1082
00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:19,160
some of the folks in the movie,
what played himself in the

1083
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:20,440
movie.
So that's kind of one thing.

1084
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:21,960
Oh, he did.
Yeah, he did.

1085
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,680
Yeah.
I asked a gaming regulator,

1086
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,480
someone I really respect, name's
Shannon by the.

1087
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,640
I asked him about it, and he
said, well, you know, the scene

1088
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,680
with the like, well, how
accurate was that?

1089
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:35,960
He's like, well, the scene with
the head and the vice, that did

1090
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,440
not happen in the state of
Nevada, But apparently the rest

1091
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,520
of the stuff was pretty accurate
to the folks who were around

1092
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:41,800
there who kind of lived through
it.

1093
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:47,800
And, yeah, you know, it's just a
great, great depiction of Vegas

1094
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:49,560
at that time.
Just really cool.

1095
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,560
Yeah, yeah.
It also kind of showed the

1096
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,080
where, the where like what we're
what I was trying to, you know,

1097
00:56:56,320 --> 00:57:00,160
describe earlier with the notion
that as the town got a little

1098
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,480
more full, that's when
competition, you know, really

1099
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,520
got a little more heated up.
Yeah.

1100
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,160
And it's also, you know, and we
can talk about the decline of

1101
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:12,320
the mob, but kind of one of the
one of the things I'd like to

1102
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:16,760
say about organized crime is
because there's so few records,

1103
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:22,720
like records, we tend to impose
what we want to impose on it.

1104
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:28,520
So Nick Pileggi, Martin Scorsese
see it and they see a Greek

1105
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:36,160
drama, OK, Police look at it.
They see it as a a quasi

1106
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,240
military or law enforcement
organization with the boss, the

1107
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,120
under boss.
And it's very, it's like a

1108
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,840
police, it's like a Police
Department.

1109
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:45,200
Yeah.
Almost said.

1110
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,280
Yeah, almost said.
Team Police Department.

1111
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,640
It's like a it's like, it's like
a police agency, which like

1112
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:54,000
here's the boss, here's here's
the chief of OPS, here's the so

1113
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:55,440
yeah.
So they look at it that way.

1114
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,360
OK, when you have academics look
at it, they basically look at it

1115
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:01,960
like it's the sociology
department of OK, well, we've

1116
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:04,720
got the chair of the department
and these other people are doing

1117
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:06,760
stuff and they'll kick something
back to the chair, but they're

1118
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,440
kind of independent agents.
I'm not saying that people in

1119
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,520
the social department or any
department, it kicks up back to

1120
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:14,080
the chair, but it's really like
with the chairs more the first

1121
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:16,280
among equals as opposed to the
boss.

1122
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:18,680
You know, it's kind of like
that's how they look at

1123
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:20,480
organized crimes.
It's kind of interesting when

1124
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:25,160
when you look at the mob, we can
pretty much impose any structure

1125
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:27,840
we want on it because so much of
it is an enigma.

1126
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,200
And as I said, I bet reality is
probably a blend of all of it,

1127
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,040
you know, you know, depending
who you were talking to and what

1128
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:37,200
they're, you know, what they're
like, you know, if you were

1129
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,520
making observation with the
podcast State of the world, you

1130
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:42,960
could say it's education, it's
news, it's, you know, it's

1131
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:45,440
conspiracy theories, it's
whatever, you know, and then you

1132
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:47,360
say, well, it's actually all of
that.

1133
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:49,200
It just depends who you're
listening to, you know, it's

1134
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,440
just that.
So, so I, I bet that I bet that

1135
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:54,320
there's truth to all of it.
You know, that's been the fun

1136
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,960
part of doing this deep dive,
this these deep dives.

1137
00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,960
Hey, can we take a little detour
into conspiracy theories for a

1138
00:58:59,960 --> 00:59:01,320
minute?
Yes, please.

1139
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,280
OK.
I'm currently teaching a seminar

1140
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,560
at UNLV on conspiracy theories.
Really.

1141
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,720
So yeah.
So I'm having a lot of fun with.

1142
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,840
Them tell me tell me what are
some of your favorite ones just

1143
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,160
off the top of?
Your head my favorite one.

1144
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:18,240
OK, like I when I'm first like
hey, I want to teach a class on

1145
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:19,480
this.
I thought it would be the fun

1146
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:24,360
ones with, you know, like
Bigfoot and aliens and stuff

1147
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:26,920
like that.
Area 51, a lot of it's not quite

1148
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:29,800
so fun, you know, it's much more
sinister.

1149
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:35,520
So it's just amazing how the
same tropes are recycled and

1150
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:37,680
have been recycled for hundreds
of years now.

1151
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,600
And it's basically trying to,
you know, one of them, you know,

1152
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,600
So I'll look at, you know, one
of the thinkers, one of the one

1153
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,400
of the frameworks we look at is
Barcoon.

1154
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:51,480
Basically everything is
connected, nothing is as it

1155
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:53,240
seems and nothing happens by
accident.

1156
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,360
And if you look at any and
basically also I've done this in

1157
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,400
my conflict resolution where we
bring these, we bring this

1158
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,960
mindset into our work
relationships.

1159
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:04,640
And.
I did a blog post about this a

1160
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,440
while back, but basically it's
like, yeah, if you start

1161
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,800
thinking this way, like, oh,
well, I know what's really going

1162
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:12,320
on and yeah, they said this, but
they're doing this.

1163
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:14,800
And yeah, I know that was no
accident that this happened.

1164
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,200
Like really start to think
critically about where you're

1165
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,520
going wrong because conspiracy,
you know, basically the runaway

1166
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,960
conspiracy theories, it is sort
of like pattern recognition

1167
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,560
turned up to 11.
And like we think about pattern

1168
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,280
recognition, it's basically
hardwired into US.

1169
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,440
You know, think about like
something like the face on Mars,

1170
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,280
which is a big deal when I was a
kid, the face on Mars, it's like

1171
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:41,760
it's not really a face.
We're just used to recognizing

1172
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,280
faces, you know?
Why does this go back?

1173
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,240
Well, as I've been told, I'm not
an evolutionary biologist.

1174
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:49,680
Any stretching imagination.
But hey, I read a book about it.

1175
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:52,200
So what do you know?
What I read was, you know, the

1176
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:56,600
little baby primate that
recognizes its mom's face and,

1177
01:00:56,600 --> 01:01:01,080
like, smiles, gets milk.
The one that doesn't is like,

1178
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:05,200
yeah, whatever, lady, you know,
I got stuff to do, doesn't get

1179
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,120
the food, so it doesn't survive.
So basically, we're, like,

1180
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:08,880
hardwired for pattern
recognition.

1181
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:13,480
So conspiracy is basically like
picking out patterns where they

1182
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:15,520
may not exist.
Yeah, sure.

1183
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:17,320
Yeah.
And then like you get in.

1184
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:21,840
So next week one of the classes
is on gang stalking where people

1185
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:25,760
believe, you know, it's it's
very, it's scary because people

1186
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,320
believe that people, they're
just regular folks like you and

1187
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,680
I are organized to stalk them
and intimidate them and bully

1188
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:35,400
them and stuff like that.
So you kind of get that and

1189
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:38,160
they're picking up on patterns.
But it's like, oh, you know, a

1190
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:41,040
red car drove by, then another
red car drove by.

1191
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:43,760
They're they're sending me
messages.

1192
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:45,120
So yeah, it does.
Do you?

1193
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:46,920
Think that would happen?
Do you think that would happen

1194
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,960
anyway?
Because I feel like the areas

1195
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:53,240
that conspiracy theories kind of
pop up the most is when there's

1196
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:58,120
a lack of transparency or
conversation and then it leaves,

1197
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,560
it leaves it up to individuals
to fill in the blanks

1198
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:02,880
themselves.
So like, for example, I've

1199
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:05,920
noticed and I'm really, I mean,
I kind of, I'm not really sure

1200
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,320
what to think of her by.
I think that she's probably

1201
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,440
nuts, but I'm not sure what to
think of Candace Owens.

1202
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:14,680
And you know, I mean, I'm she's
but what she's really good at,

1203
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:18,000
she's good at finding holes in
narratives that really are

1204
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,240
legitimate holes.
The way that she puts the pieces

1205
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:25,040
back together again, I can't
speak to, but like when she does

1206
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,240
emphasize a lack of information
is being provided.

1207
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,000
Like a lot of times, those kind,
that kind of critical

1208
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,920
observation typically comes from
a relatively grounded place.

1209
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:35,840
And then what?
And then what you're, you're

1210
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:40,280
describing like us creating
pattern out of chaos or meaning

1211
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:42,480
out of chaos is where we could
go wrong.

1212
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:44,440
Because that's also when we're
almost like what you said with

1213
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,520
even with the conflict
resolution, I'm injecting myself

1214
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:49,760
into this story.
I'm injecting what I think

1215
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:53,400
everyone's motivated by and
inspired by into the story

1216
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,440
without actually knowing who the
players or the characters are

1217
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,720
necessary.
Yeah, I mean, it's a myth of

1218
01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:59,960
thinking we have perfect
information about anything you

1219
01:02:59,960 --> 01:03:03,120
think about any event.
There's a lot of chaos, there's

1220
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:04,440
a lot of confusion on the
ground.

1221
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,560
You know, I've been through a
thing or two where it's like,

1222
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,080
yeah, at the time people would
say it was one thing, but then

1223
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:11,360
it turned out to be another
thing.

1224
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,200
And I understand why that
happened.

1225
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:14,840
There was a lot of confusion
going on.

1226
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:16,920
There was there was things
happening, you know.

1227
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:23,440
So a lot of it is just over
elaborate explanations and

1228
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:25,680
explanations that avoid Occam's
razor.

1229
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:30,200
A lot of that, you know, so
super elaborate explanations.

1230
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:33,520
Also like one of the theories is
they posit preternaturally.

1231
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,760
What is it preternaturally
competent and sinister people?

1232
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:41,040
So like, obviously, like
something like Watergate, right?

1233
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:44,920
You know, that was, as the White
House itself said, a third rate

1234
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:46,400
burglary didn't get away with
it.

1235
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:48,960
So like, how do you think they
can't get away with that?

1236
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:51,120
But they could get away with
faking the moon landing, which

1237
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:53,520
they didn't.
Blows my mind.

1238
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:56,000
And like, so literally the
50,000 people were working on

1239
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,520
it.
All are just doing this for fun

1240
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,760
and none of them has confessed
to it When like, yeah, you're

1241
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:04,720
probably not gonna get.
Although I guess the counter is

1242
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:08,200
like, well, that's what they
want you to believe and we are

1243
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:10,200
better.
And like again, if there was a

1244
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,440
really good kind of like, well.
The counter that I've heard to

1245
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:14,880
that was that it only took a
couple of people at the top and

1246
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:16,360
everyone else thought they were
doing the right thing.

1247
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,240
Everyone thought they were.
Just I guess, but it seems very.

1248
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:23,760
Yeah, by, by the way, by I, I
all these all, all these things

1249
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,480
and and one of the valuable
aspects of conspiracy theories

1250
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,240
is you can't prove it's not it,
you know, like it's a.

1251
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,840
Thing they're ultimately and if
your theory is ultimately

1252
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:35,360
unfalsifiable, you've got to be
really critical when you reflect

1253
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:37,040
on that.
Because if there's no way, and

1254
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,120
I'd like to, this is what I, you
know, my students aren't talking

1255
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:43,840
about like, yeah, if there's no
way you can disprove this, then

1256
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:48,480
like, how Can you believe it?
Because there's not, you know,

1257
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:49,800
so.
And again, The thing is like,

1258
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:52,200
hey, there's an invisible dragon
behind me.

1259
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:55,000
Can you believe that there
isn't?

1260
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:56,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
So my.

1261
01:04:57,400 --> 01:04:59,840
Hand went through him.
Oh well, he also shapeshifts or

1262
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:02,360
he went to another dimension.
Yeah.

1263
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:07,560
Yeah, it wouldn't be a dragon.
It would be the, I don't know, I

1264
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:09,960
think elephant from Winnie the.
Pooh after he takes after he

1265
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,640
takes the acid.
Yeah, I mean, but we hear, we

1266
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,000
hear good things about the
Greys, the Reptoids.

1267
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:17,080
We hear, we hear, you know
they're supposed to be bad.

1268
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:18,800
Will you want that?
What do you think about that,

1269
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:20,120
About aliens and stuff like
that?

1270
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:24,440
Reptoids, I mean, personally
again, and I'm not a I'm not a a

1271
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:26,880
scientist, natural
astrophysicist or anything like

1272
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:32,960
that, but based on my college
level education in in science,

1273
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:36,240
you know, universe is vast
pretty.

1274
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:38,920
Do you believe that we would
this would be the only time life

1275
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:42,600
happened?
On the other hand, like are

1276
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:47,160
people flying from other solar
systems and like abducting

1277
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:51,200
cattle and and putting probes in
people probably, well that part.

1278
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:52,480
Right, exactly.
That's the problem.

1279
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:54,040
That's where it that's where it
gets dicey.

1280
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:55,880
Is there?
Probably no.

1281
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:59,600
Yeah, yeah, this.
Thing Have you been following

1282
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:03,440
this thing at the Atlas I3
Meteor in the news?

1283
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:08,280
No, but they're they want to see
if it's if it's. 7 billion year

1284
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:11,320
old asteroid that's been
floating through our through our

1285
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:13,680
through our Milky Way just
around to the sun a couple of

1286
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:16,480
days ago, you know, but and we
don't know what it is, but it's

1287
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:18,600
cool.
Anything 7 billion years old is

1288
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:22,640
cool, you know, as far as I'm.
Concerned yeah so like again,

1289
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:27,200
like who knows but again like, I
don't know the they they would

1290
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:29,520
manifest in that way but hey,
maybe they do maybe they just

1291
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,400
have fun with doing it.
You know, maybe it's, maybe it's

1292
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:33,960
like Hitchhiker's Guide of the
Galaxy or something.

1293
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:37,160
Maybe.
I was talking to the other week,

1294
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:41,720
I was talking to a former
homicide detective, really sweet

1295
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:45,480
guy out of Arizona.
And I asked him what he thought

1296
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:47,160
about the Charlie Kirk
situation.

1297
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:49,600
Because there's been a lot of,
you know, conspiracies flying

1298
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:52,800
around that.
And then one thing that I before

1299
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:54,760
I even before I even got a
chance to answer, I said, you

1300
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,520
know, just where I stand on, on
the, on the conversation.

1301
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,640
I was like, and because my high
school students were asking me

1302
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:02,360
about it, you know, the day
they're like how, how did the

1303
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:04,000
FBI arrest the wrong guy, blah,
blah.

1304
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:05,920
I'm like, let me explain
something to you.

1305
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:07,840
I was like, you guys are going
to be in College in four years.

1306
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:10,000
There's going to be an event on
campus.

1307
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:11,800
You're going to smoke, you're
going to drink, you're going to

1308
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:13,520
go with your buddies.
Everyone's going to be there.

1309
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:16,120
There's going to be 10,000
people there and everyone's

1310
01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:20,200
going to be having a great time.
If anything happened, every

1311
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:23,320
single person there forget about
whether you're inebriated or

1312
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:25,240
not, or whether you're hanging
out with your friends or not, or

1313
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:27,000
you're there just for a good
time and you're even paying

1314
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:28,960
attention or you're not on your
phone and you're not scrolling.

1315
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:34,200
Take all those variables out.
You have no idea what's flying

1316
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:40,080
there At the end of the day, You
know, these kind of jobs are so

1317
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:44,000
hard to do.
And you know, there's so many

1318
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,120
hundreds and thousands of
factors that go into every

1319
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:49,440
detail and every act that it's
really.

1320
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:53,160
And by the way, and I'm not
discounting the potential for a

1321
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:57,640
conspiracy either, you know, but
you know, there I think that

1322
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:00,480
like, you know, Akens Razor, you
know, like I think that

1323
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:04,000
generally speaking, we're
probably the safest to say the

1324
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,440
simplest explanation is probably
the right one, you know?

1325
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,720
Yeah, although my other, I don't
know, I don't want to say it's

1326
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:12,560
my last word and some conspiracy
theories, but it sounds pretty

1327
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,880
pithy.
And you know, I, I, I, it's

1328
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:17,640
original.
So it's got that bad script.

1329
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:21,399
You know, to me, conspiracy
theories are like slot machines.

1330
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:25,359
OK, what's the what's the
tragedy of the slot machine?

1331
01:08:25,359 --> 01:08:28,359
It's not that most people lose.
It's not that you're going to

1332
01:08:28,359 --> 01:08:30,640
lose every time.
It's that sometimes people win.

1333
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:33,560
So you can't know that you're
not going to win.

1334
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:36,279
There's still that hope.
Conspiracy theories are the same

1335
01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:39,319
way where like, yeah, a lot of
them are definitely false, but

1336
01:08:39,319 --> 01:08:42,200
every now and then one of them
turns out to be true and there's

1337
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,600
just no which one is which?
So, yeah, if you're like, hey,

1338
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:48,600
you know, the government is
lying about something.

1339
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:51,080
Well, like they very well, maybe
they have in the past.

1340
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:53,479
They're.
Definitely out of the entire

1341
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:55,319
history.
They're not shooting 100% on

1342
01:08:55,319 --> 01:08:56,840
honesty, you know?
Yeah.

1343
01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:59,560
So, so yeah, it's kind of
interesting in that way.

1344
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:04,720
We're like, yeah, we, we're kind
of chasing after the vast

1345
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:06,720
majority of people of the lace
slot machines are not going to

1346
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:09,720
win in their session.
That small minority will.

1347
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,240
So like we're chasing that.
I think it's similar with

1348
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:15,040
conspiracy theories.
We're like just trying to find

1349
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:17,680
that or also, I mean, there's
ways, and this is not original

1350
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,479
to me, but, you know, people
have said it's a way of making

1351
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:22,560
sense of the world.
And it's actually less scary.

1352
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:25,240
And I think it was Alan Moore.
You know, I've got a great quote

1353
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:26,640
from him.
But like, the terrifying thing

1354
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:28,760
is, nobody's in charge.
Yeah.

1355
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:32,120
And like, if we knew there was a
a, the the Reptoids were

1356
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:34,240
secretly running everything
behind the scenes like, well, at

1357
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:37,000
least someone's doing something.
But the fact that this all could

1358
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:40,399
be just random scary.
No one wants that, right?

1359
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:42,319
Yeah, it's.
Really interesting.

1360
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:44,439
Yeah, Really, really
interesting.

1361
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:46,800
It's a great point.
It's a great point.

1362
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:50,399
I want to talk to you about a
couple more topics.

1363
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:53,720
I want to hit the I want to hit
the fall of the mafia for sure.

1364
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:57,840
I also want to think about the
different economic, I guess

1365
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:00,840
classes or stages that occur
because, you know, throw

1366
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,320
gambling, because gambling is
consistent no matter whether the

1367
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:05,880
economy is good or bad.
And the question really kind of

1368
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:11,000
becomes as to what kind of games
or what type of playing that

1369
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:13,480
people are doing in different
economic situations.

1370
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:16,880
If times are good, are more
people playing slots or less

1371
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:21,040
people?
Is there a correlation between

1372
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:25,120
where we are as a society?
So you could choose to tackle

1373
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,680
whichever topic you want to go
down 1st.

1374
01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:30,160
Yeah, decline on the MOB.
Let's take that.

1375
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:33,600
So basically, remember the three
things that I talked about, the

1376
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:37,160
three advantages the MOB casinos
would have in Vegas, which were

1377
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:39,200
finance, marketing, debt
collection.

1378
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:44,640
By the 80s, they're all gone.
So originally in Nevada, anybody

1379
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:49,320
who owned any share at all of a
casino had to be licensed, you

1380
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:54,200
know, basically investigated and
licensed, which precludes

1381
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,080
ownership by publicly traded
companies because they're

1382
01:10:57,080 --> 01:10:59,680
trading over the counter.
So you can't really do that.

1383
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:04,440
So originally, no publicly
traded companies in Nevada

1384
01:11:04,440 --> 01:11:08,640
owning casinos.
That changes in 67 and 69.

1385
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:12,000
The legislature passes the
corporate gaming acts.

1386
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:14,360
Now they do allow corporations
to own it.

1387
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:22,000
So now we're opening up the
faucet for corporate money from

1388
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:23,640
for mainstream finance to come
in.

1389
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:27,880
You know, at the same time,
Nevada starts doing a much

1390
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:31,960
better job of tracking the
casinos financially.

1391
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:35,800
And these companies see just how
profitable casinos can be.

1392
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:39,000
So suddenly they're in money.
And here's the example I'd like

1393
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:43,520
to use.
So the Sands opened in 1952,

1394
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:46,320
cost around four and a half,
$1,000,000 to build.

1395
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:49,640
It's a huge number of times,
yeah, which was decent.

1396
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:52,800
But like that you could get from
Hal Rothman, who was a great

1397
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:55,320
historian of Vegas, called it
Shoebox Capital.

1398
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:59,400
Basically like mob guys taking
cash out of shoeboxes and

1399
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:01,360
shipping it to Vegas so you can
get that.

1400
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:05,400
Yeah.
Caesar's Palace opens up in 1966

1401
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:09,920
cost 19,000,000 dollars. 10
million of it was a Teamsters

1402
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:14,280
Central State's pension fund
loan from Jimmy Hoffa. 9 The

1403
01:12:14,280 --> 01:12:16,680
rest of the 9 million they
scraped together going to every

1404
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,080
bookie, every big gambler in the
East Coast, and they barely

1405
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:22,040
opened.
Like they almost didn't have

1406
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:24,120
enough money to open.
They probably shouldn't have

1407
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:26,120
been allowed to open because
they didn't have enough money,

1408
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:29,280
but they were very successful.
OK, so that's straining the the

1409
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:32,920
thing there. 1969, the
international opens, that's Kirk

1410
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:39,920
Krikorian that cost $50 million
and the the mob guys could not

1411
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:43,640
get their hands on $50 million.
Krikorian, you know, does a

1412
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:45,640
stock offering.
That's how that happens.

1413
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:49,160
So basically they're so
successful they get priced out

1414
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:52,280
because now like they can't
afford to build the new ones or

1415
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:54,600
keep up the old ones.
So that's finance goes away

1416
01:12:55,000 --> 01:13:01,280
marketing, you know, guy named
John Akers who does casino tech

1417
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:03,880
has a room key and a speaking
spell and figures like, hey,

1418
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:06,520
wait, if we can get these to go
with each other, we could like

1419
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:10,160
put information in the card and
put it in the slot machine and

1420
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:12,600
track people's play.
Wow.

1421
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:18,440
So like player tracking is born.
So now people will tell you how

1422
01:13:18,440 --> 01:13:20,840
much they gamble.
So players clubs, let people

1423
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:22,680
track that loyalty and stuff
like that.

1424
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:25,520
They now know how to how to
market to people.

1425
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:29,080
So boom, out of that, you know,
last one, debt collection,

1426
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:32,120
Nevada changes the law.
Gambling debts are now legally

1427
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:33,240
collectible in the state of
Nevada.

1428
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:35,920
Oh man.
So by the 80s, all that's gone.

1429
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:37,760
Also there's that generational
shift.

1430
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:42,240
So remember the young and hungry
guys in Prohibition, you know,

1431
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:43,840
they're born around the year
1900.

1432
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:46,840
They've all retired or died off
at this point.

1433
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:51,400
Their kids are mostly, they
became doctors and lawyers and

1434
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:53,480
stuff like that for the most
part.

1435
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:58,760
Organized crime, you know, it's
not the 20s anymore where people

1436
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:01,720
are betting on horses and stuff.
Organized crime is now focused

1437
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:07,880
much more on loan sharking,
prostitution or comics, stuff

1438
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:09,480
like that.
So they're not really doing

1439
01:14:09,480 --> 01:14:11,520
gambling anymore.
So like, hey, you know, this

1440
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:14,760
guy's in the mob doesn't really
know gambling that well.

1441
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:18,160
Can't get us money, can't market
for us.

1442
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:20,520
You can't do debt collection.
So like what's?

1443
01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:21,920
So that's kind of how they go
away.

1444
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:24,760
You also have a big crackdown by
the state and the federal

1445
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:27,240
government.
That must have been systematic

1446
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:29,680
because there was the exact
three things that you said gave

1447
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:32,360
them advantage over everyone
else, you know, I mean.

1448
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:36,360
It is interesting how it's, it's
just so many factors come

1449
01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:40,360
together because you also have
now, OK, so originally nobody

1450
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:41,840
really cared.
It's like, yeah, Nevada's,

1451
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:44,080
Nevada's this is weird state.
They're a bunch of freaks.

1452
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:47,920
They have legal gambling.
You know, as time goes on, the

1453
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:49,720
federal government's getting
very interested.

1454
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:53,000
In the early 60's, the Kennelly
White House and Bobby Kennelly,

1455
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:55,880
his attorney general was very
anti organized crime.

1456
01:14:56,560 --> 01:14:58,720
You know, he wanted to really
crack down on Vegas.

1457
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:01,840
They're able to prevent that.
But Vegas in the message was get

1458
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:05,360
your house in order.
So they really are like, yeah,

1459
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:07,640
we better take this seriously
and kick these people out.

1460
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:11,080
So they really do step that up.
Do you think that could have?

1461
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:15,440
Do you think I I never I mean
that I've heard that the mob

1462
01:15:15,440 --> 01:15:18,440
could have been involved in in
killing, in Kennedy's

1463
01:15:18,440 --> 01:15:19,920
assassination.
I never heard of all.

1464
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:23,040
I never knew why that could have
been enough of a reason.

1465
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:24,640
I.
Mean, yeah, I mean, this could

1466
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:29,080
be a whole other episode here,
but basically I mean Kennedy

1467
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:32,480
like who couldn't have been
involved in the asset?

1468
01:15:32,480 --> 01:15:34,280
It's so funny when you read this
in everyone right?

1469
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:41,160
Everyone could be Castro, anti
Castro, Cubans, communists, most

1470
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:43,120
communists.
American Seattle men.

1471
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:48,160
Yeah, pretty much everybody, the
mob, kind of everybody, you

1472
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:51,120
know, which is a whole other
thing there.

1473
01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:52,560
I mean, that's a whole other
thing, but.

1474
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:56,400
It really is.
So I don't know, that seems a

1475
01:15:56,400 --> 01:15:58,800
bit a little bit out of their
out of their scope there, but

1476
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:00,680
who knows.
OK, You think that you don't

1477
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:02,320
think you don't think that they
were powerful.

1478
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:04,640
I I know that.
I guess culturally or media that

1479
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:06,760
you know, we make it, we
romanticize them to be powerful

1480
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:08,360
enough, but you don't think in
reality they were.

1481
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:11,840
I don't know what they would
gain if if it was like, hey,

1482
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:14,320
we're mad because we're out of
Cuba, didn't get him back into

1483
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:18,000
Cuba.
If they're just like mad because

1484
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:21,080
he wasn't he, he broke we.
Still haven't figured out our

1485
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:22,600
situation with Cuba
unfortunately.

1486
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:24,200
Oh, yeah.
But it's like, you know, part of

1487
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:26,720
it's like, well, he was, you
know, hey, the mob helped him

1488
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:29,560
get elected and now he's
cracking down the mob.

1489
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:31,720
Yeah, didn't really do much for
that.

1490
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:35,280
And the mob ends up, it ends up
being, you know, Bobby

1491
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:38,360
Kennedy's, and this is another
book about called Cutting the

1492
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:40,960
Wire at the Wire Act.
You know, Bobby Kennedy's bright

1493
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:45,560
idea for cracking down the mob
was, oh, they're using Telegraph

1494
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:47,320
wires to send gambling
information.

1495
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:49,960
So we're going to criminalize
this.

1496
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:53,040
And so like the bookie's going
to roll on the bigger bookie,

1497
01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:55,200
who's going to roll on the
bigger 1, and that's going to

1498
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:56,920
take us all the way up to the
big mob.

1499
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:01,200
What he didn't account for were
the people would gladly do five

1500
01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:05,480
years in prison to avoid
angering the big mob boss.

1501
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:09,520
So basically wire act did not
break up any organized crime.

1502
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:12,520
It wasn't until Rico, the
Racketeer influence corruption

1503
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:15,760
act that did that.
That was in later in the decade

1504
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:18,680
or I think in 70.
Again, it's been a while since I

1505
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:21,600
I, I wrote that, but you know,
basically that's what does it,

1506
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:24,840
which makes just being in the
criminal conspiracy is now a

1507
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:27,160
crime.
They just need, again, kind of

1508
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:29,720
going back to the wire here.
They just need the wiretap

1509
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:32,760
evidence like, yeah, you guys
play on this crime, you're going

1510
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:34,120
down.
That's what breaks up a lot of

1511
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:38,080
that classic New York, Italian,
Five Families stuff.

1512
01:17:38,240 --> 01:17:42,000
What do you think of what do you
think of that idea in a vacuum?

1513
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:44,280
I don't understand that it's
being applied particularly to

1514
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:46,280
the mafia, but what do you think
of that idea applied in a

1515
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:48,640
vacuum?
Generally speaking, do you think

1516
01:17:49,240 --> 01:17:52,400
as far as like the law and the
country goes, do you think that

1517
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:59,280
that's something that is, you
know, it doesn't, it doesn't

1518
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:01,360
really go with the whole idea of
innocent until proven guilty

1519
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:03,280
kind of thing.
Oh, yeah.

1520
01:18:03,280 --> 01:18:05,040
I mean, a lot of the stuff,
well, the stuff that Bobby

1521
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:07,920
Kennedy did was probably, well,
they got caught using illegal

1522
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:10,440
wiretaps, right?
Wiretapping was illegal in

1523
01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:11,600
Nevada.
They didn't have clearance.

1524
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:14,840
They did it illegally and they
got caught doing that.

1525
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:16,320
It was a big embarrassment.
Yeah.

1526
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:19,040
I mean, and some people would
say they overstepped in their

1527
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:22,800
zeal to get organized crime.
So that is definitely a danger.

1528
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:25,640
Yeah.
And then it just becomes a

1529
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:28,520
precedent that it can be used to
apply to anything else you want

1530
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:29,800
in the future.
Yeah.

1531
01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:32,960
Yeah.
So yeah, that's why I've.

1532
01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:34,920
Been thinking a lot about that
because that's, that's got a lot

1533
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:36,400
of very modern day
repercussions.

1534
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:38,320
You know, the decisions that
we're making today or the

1535
01:18:38,320 --> 01:18:41,000
decision we made a couple of
years ago or whatever, you know,

1536
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:44,200
the repercussions that they have
in other contexts that we didn't

1537
01:18:44,200 --> 01:18:47,560
even imagine that it would come
up, you know, just happening all

1538
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:49,680
over the place.
So that that could be a pretty

1539
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:51,840
big thing.
Yeah, yeah.

1540
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:55,160
Wow.
So, so it turned out that it

1541
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:57,800
really was just a like the
government, it was a combination

1542
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:04,560
of it being such a financially,
you know, enticing, you know,

1543
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:10,080
spectacle that corporations were
out mafia ING the mafia and then

1544
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:12,440
also down from local and federal
government.

1545
01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:14,000
Some people would argue that,
yeah.

1546
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:16,120
But I mean, it's it's definitely
a variety of factors.

1547
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:19,320
But if you look at it, kind of a
variety of things came together

1548
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:21,520
to create that.
A variety of things changed.

1549
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:24,440
So it's shifted, you know, the
gambling industry kind of moves

1550
01:19:24,440 --> 01:19:27,520
and adapts with the times.
And there's nothing saying, you

1551
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:31,000
know, so like 30 years ago, hey,
you want to make money in Vegas,

1552
01:19:31,480 --> 01:19:34,360
build a big air conditioned box,
fill it with slot machines and

1553
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:37,720
people are going to fly or drive
like four or five hours and sit

1554
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:39,840
there and play for for three or
four hours a day.

1555
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:42,440
That's changing.
And that has changed.

1556
01:19:42,480 --> 01:19:44,800
You know, people are gambling
less or gambling more intensely.

1557
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:48,600
They're gambling less though.
So not less money, but less

1558
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:50,520
time.
So that's why you have a lot of

1559
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:53,160
other attractions in Vegas.
And you know, also people can

1560
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:56,080
gamble almost anywhere.
So now hey, you got to come out

1561
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:59,120
for something like sphere or.
I was about to say, what do you

1562
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:01,800
think of this?
Or F1, which is happening pretty

1563
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:04,200
soon.
That's right, what was I?

1564
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:07,320
I went last year or two years
ago to Vegas with my wife the

1565
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:08,840
same weekend as one of the
races.

1566
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:10,360
But it wasn't F1 was it?
What?

1567
01:20:10,360 --> 01:20:12,600
What was it F 1-2 years ago?
When did they start there?

1568
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:15,280
Well, I don't know.
I mean, I know we had F1, but

1569
01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:17,360
there's a copy, you know,
there's, there's NASCAR.

1570
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:19,280
Was it on the street or was it
November?

1571
01:20:19,440 --> 01:20:21,080
It was in the street, the track
was around.

1572
01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:22,080
It's a.
Lot like F1.

1573
01:20:22,480 --> 01:20:25,280
Yeah, That was that cool.
It was really cool.

1574
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:27,320
It was actually this time of
year because it was, it was

1575
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:30,080
anniversary, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, very cool. 20th,

1576
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:32,800
20th through 22nd.
What?

1577
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:35,680
20th November this year November
20th.

1578
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:36,320
That's right.
That's right.

1579
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:37,040
That's right.
That's right.

1580
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:41,280
So cool, so cool, so cool.
So, so I want to talk about real

1581
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:42,760
quick.
I want to talk about economics

1582
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,040
and I actually want to ask you
about writing because I'm also a

1583
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:50,800
writer and but I am not a
prolific writer like yourself.

1584
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:53,160
And not only that, I have a, you
know, and I've spoken to a

1585
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:56,280
couple of people to try to get,
you know, people that are, have

1586
01:20:56,280 --> 01:21:01,280
written larger libraries to ask
their methods because I have a

1587
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:06,080
very hard time keeping track of
like a whole thing.

1588
01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:09,320
And then, you know, and I kind
of get lost in the detail, the

1589
01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:10,960
zoom.
I'm either focused completely on

1590
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:14,040
the trees and I have a hard time
seeing the whole forest while

1591
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:16,400
I'm writing.
So I want to ask you about

1592
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:19,880
writing and the economics of,
you know, gambling patterns or

1593
01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:22,600
anything like that.
Yeah, again, your choice is to

1594
01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:24,920
which one you want to go into.
Yeah, I'll go writing.

1595
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:26,200
I'm not.
I'm not an economist.

1596
01:21:26,200 --> 01:21:28,440
So like that, that stuff was a
little bit outside.

1597
01:21:28,440 --> 01:21:30,760
So we'll, we'll, we'll leave
with the writing plan, yeah.

1598
01:21:30,760 --> 01:21:32,560
Nice scope, let's talk.
So like writing.

1599
01:21:32,560 --> 01:21:35,200
And again, I'm not, I'm not that
perfect right now just cuz I

1600
01:21:35,200 --> 01:21:37,240
have a lot of things going on.
Although I do like to keep my

1601
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:39,040
blog up.
I try to get that out every two

1602
01:21:39,040 --> 01:21:41,200
weeks.
I'm working on something now

1603
01:21:41,200 --> 01:21:44,160
about how, you know, instead of
just giving people advice about

1604
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:46,320
how to be nice and solve
conflicts and like, what if we

1605
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:48,640
like went mirror universe?
And I'm going to give people

1606
01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:51,680
advice on how to sabotage things
as a leader and how to be a bad

1607
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:54,360
leader and what to do.
And it's kind of so yeah, I'm

1608
01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:56,040
working and hopefully I'll get
that's cool.

1609
01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:57,760
I'm working that today and over
the weekend.

1610
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:00,760
It, I hope it is, you know,
basically writing, you know, my

1611
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:05,800
thing when I'm doing a book is a
little bit at a time.

1612
01:22:06,360 --> 01:22:10,800
If I can write 2000 words a day,
that's pretty good for me.

1613
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:14,040
You know, 1000 is good.
The key is to just get words on

1614
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:17,040
paper.
Also, like don't getting it.

1615
01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:19,480
Don't get too attached to
anything because a lot of it you

1616
01:22:19,480 --> 01:22:23,120
might get rid of.
So, you know, I've got.

1617
01:22:24,160 --> 01:22:25,720
Yeah, I'm not.
Yeah.

1618
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:29,240
Right now just have so much
stuff going on because I'm doing

1619
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:33,040
this, teaching the class,
working another job, part time

1620
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:35,880
back in school.
Not a lot of time to sit and

1621
01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:38,520
write, you know, I can imagine.
Yeah.

1622
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:42,080
But when I was doing it for the
12 books or whatever I've done,

1623
01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:47,000
when I was doing it more and
I'll do it again someday, you

1624
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:50,000
know, it's just like basically
breaking it up into small

1625
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:52,880
pieces.
Whatever it is, break it up into

1626
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:56,080
small pieces.
And again, I'm a nonfiction guy,

1627
01:22:56,080 --> 01:22:59,520
so I can't really speak to
fiction with any, any degree of

1628
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:01,720
authority there.
But like nonfiction, like, yeah,

1629
01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:04,640
hey, have your outline, know
what each chapter's about.

1630
01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:06,280
Then they just break it down in
chapter.

1631
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:09,720
I'm the kind of writer who I'm
pretty much, you know, kind of

1632
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:13,920
like if you imagine them
designing the building as

1633
01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:15,640
they're working on it.
So when they're pouring the

1634
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:17,840
concrete in the first floor,
they're kind of designing the

1635
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:19,800
5th floor.
That's the kind of writer I am

1636
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:23,400
where like, I'll just have my
outline and as I'm doing the

1637
01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:28,800
research, I'm writing.
And how often, like, how often

1638
01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:31,320
do your projects evolve as
you're writing them?

1639
01:23:31,320 --> 01:23:32,920
And like, oh, I thought I was
starting about this.

1640
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:34,440
And it turns out I'm going into
this.

1641
01:23:34,440 --> 01:23:37,600
Or, you know, I thought, you
know, I thought this was enough

1642
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:39,240
to be a whole book.
But it turns out I want to

1643
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:41,640
include this or I want to
include all of it.

1644
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:43,440
And it turns out that I could
only focus on this.

1645
01:23:43,440 --> 01:23:46,160
Does that happen often?
Yeah, I mean, they do.

1646
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:48,520
A lot of times it's getting
concepts.

1647
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:51,640
So like I had an idea, I wanted
to do a book about the history

1648
01:23:51,640 --> 01:23:56,400
of E sports and I thought I
wrote a pretty good first

1649
01:23:56,400 --> 01:24:00,200
chapter, wrote a pretty good
chapter about space 4, which is,

1650
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:04,000
which is a big deal.
Then I'm like, yeah, that's I'm

1651
01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:06,320
just not feeling this.
And I gave it.

1652
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:08,320
I'm like, I'm not doing it.
Don't know what I'm going to use

1653
01:24:08,320 --> 01:24:12,000
that stuff for sitting on a hard
drive somewhere, which is kind

1654
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:14,080
of sad, but it's like, Nah, my
heart's not in it.

1655
01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:20,040
I will, I will share my usual.
It's not quite a sine wave.

1656
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:24,560
I don't know what you would call
it, but like my sort of mood

1657
01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:27,200
writing mood thing as we're
going through it.

1658
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:29,760
So like basically start the
project.

1659
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:32,200
Like yay, I'm up here.
This is the coolest thing ever.

1660
01:24:32,440 --> 01:24:34,440
This is the book that's going to
change the world.

1661
01:24:34,520 --> 01:24:37,080
I mean, I'm not grandiose.
Like, Oh my God, this is so

1662
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:39,200
awesome.
It's going to be great.

1663
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:41,480
This is so cool.
Kind of get into it.

1664
01:24:42,080 --> 01:24:45,520
The mood goes down, you know,
And then by the time I'm like

1665
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:51,480
25%, I'm like, not only is this
a bad idea, this is the

1666
01:24:51,480 --> 01:24:54,480
stupidest idea ever.
Terrible writer.

1667
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:57,600
If it was like if there was a
good writer in here, a good idea

1668
01:24:57,600 --> 01:24:59,680
here, you wouldn't be the writer
to pull it off.

1669
01:25:00,280 --> 01:25:04,520
So, like, a terrible idea and
you are failing it tremendously.

1670
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:07,320
Or maybe it's a good idea, but
your ineptitude as a writer is

1671
01:25:07,320 --> 01:25:10,240
making this awful and borderline
and unreadable.

1672
01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:12,560
And this is just the worst thing
ever written.

1673
01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:15,640
But you're like slogging on,
slogging on.

1674
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:19,960
Then like 75% through.
It's like, OK, I could finish

1675
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:21,720
this thing.
It's terrible, but at least

1676
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:23,800
it'll be done.
And then the mood goes off.

1677
01:25:24,600 --> 01:25:26,760
It's yeah, that's like kind of
my, my experience.

1678
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:28,440
So like, it's not, it's not.
How do you get?

1679
01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:33,120
On yourself 12 times or more.
It can be rough, but it's like,

1680
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:34,720
you know, like, yeah, then
you're like, hey, this wasn't

1681
01:25:34,720 --> 01:25:37,120
that bad.
This actually wasn't that bad.

1682
01:25:37,200 --> 01:25:39,560
Like there's something of value
here because you just get so

1683
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:41,400
immersed in it.
It seems so obvious.

1684
01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:45,240
Sure.
Yeah, I, I find that I write

1685
01:25:45,240 --> 01:25:47,920
best when I, I think that
writers have to get themselves

1686
01:25:47,960 --> 01:25:51,600
into some kind of negative or
not negative, but, you know,

1687
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:56,320
like challenging place.
They, you know, like they have

1688
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:59,320
to experience some kind of angst
in order to get good quality

1689
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:00,920
work.
You know, I think that I think

1690
01:26:00,920 --> 01:26:04,080
that we become a lot more
analytical psychologically when

1691
01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:07,760
we're, you know, having a hard,
you know, whatever, having a

1692
01:26:08,040 --> 01:26:10,440
negative experience.
The best, most beautiful songs

1693
01:26:10,680 --> 01:26:13,680
are written about the saddest
things, you know, and the worst

1694
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:16,680
songs or ran about the happiest
things, you know, Like it tends

1695
01:26:16,680 --> 01:26:19,640
to be, it tends to reflect in
the beat or the melody, which is

1696
01:26:19,640 --> 01:26:21,880
much more upbeat.
But like, as far as the prose

1697
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:24,800
and as far as the poetry goes,
like, you know, you're not

1698
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:27,760
getting a, you're not getting a
real piece of work out of

1699
01:26:27,760 --> 01:26:29,880
someone whose life was perfect
all the way through and like

1700
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:33,320
never had a problem.
You know, I mean, so I bet like,

1701
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:40,200
I bet a natural part of writing
is like, you know, focusing in

1702
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:43,440
on that frustration or focusing
on the like, on like something

1703
01:26:43,440 --> 01:26:46,120
to keep you in that analytical
locked in kind of mode.

1704
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:50,200
And a big part of writing is
putting order in the world and

1705
01:26:50,200 --> 01:26:52,520
taking 1 little chaotic thing
and ordering it.

1706
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:56,880
That's why again, kind of
circling back in in this roller

1707
01:26:56,880 --> 01:27:00,640
coaster.
That is my interest here in

1708
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:03,640
conflict resolution writing is a
big place, you know, narrative

1709
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:06,240
writing it down.
That's why I like to suggest to

1710
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:09,640
people like, hey, number one
thing you can do, What can I do

1711
01:27:09,640 --> 01:27:11,520
to help myself?
Hey, write it down.

1712
01:27:12,320 --> 01:27:14,440
First of all, you're going to
keep everything fresh.

1713
01:27:14,440 --> 01:27:16,760
Second of all, it's kind of like
you clear the buffer and you can

1714
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:19,320
let it go.
So it's giving you a measure of

1715
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:22,680
control where you're just saying
this is the story, this is what

1716
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:24,200
happened.
So I was.

1717
01:27:24,200 --> 01:27:27,680
Thinking out with conflict
control, it also allows you a

1718
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:30,560
lot of times you have incomplete
thoughts, but a lot of feelings

1719
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:34,600
flying around your head and it
allows you to really put a

1720
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:37,480
thought that you might not have
even fully finished, but you're

1721
01:27:37,480 --> 01:27:39,400
feeling out and then understand
it.

1722
01:27:39,440 --> 01:27:41,320
I think that helps a lot too.
Yeah.

1723
01:27:41,320 --> 01:27:43,680
So writing is great for that.
So, yeah, I'm a big fan of

1724
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:45,600
writing.
And you know, hey, you do it.

1725
01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:47,720
If someone else reads it, great.
If nobody else reads it, it's

1726
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:50,800
still great because you did it.
So that, that's why I'm a I'm a

1727
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:53,240
big fan of writing for all kinds
of things.

1728
01:27:54,520 --> 01:27:58,120
Wow, so cool, so cool.
I love all the stuff that you're

1729
01:27:58,120 --> 01:27:59,240
doing.
I think it's really great.

1730
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:02,600
And I only that I love how we
didn't get to, we didn't get a

1731
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:08,080
bunch of stuff, but you know, we
but I love how are you able to

1732
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:12,000
keep yourself going from one
passionate project to the next?

1733
01:28:12,280 --> 01:28:14,080
And I think it's very
commendable because I think that

1734
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:17,600
a lot of people, even my
friends, I'm turning 30 in a

1735
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:20,200
month, a lot of my friends are
set, have been set in their ways

1736
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:22,560
for the last five years, you
know, as to what their interests

1737
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:25,200
are, what their passion is.
And I think that, you know,

1738
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:28,200
being curious and, you know,
really just learning to follow a

1739
01:28:28,200 --> 01:28:31,560
thought, you know, and even if
it doesn't belong in the order

1740
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:34,280
of your life, following it down
somewhere might lead you to some

1741
01:28:34,280 --> 01:28:36,880
really, really awesome places.
So I think there's, I think

1742
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:38,880
you're a wonderful example of of
that.

1743
01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:42,720
Thanks, you know, following
thoughts does do that also say

1744
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:45,320
the thing that I've really found
like wonderful in ways I

1745
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:49,000
couldn't have imagined is going
back to school has just been

1746
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:52,280
phenomenal, like just being a
schooling again, it's been

1747
01:28:52,480 --> 01:28:55,400
great.
So I would highly recommend that

1748
01:28:55,400 --> 01:28:58,440
for anybody.
Take classes in anything.

1749
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:02,200
You know, I mean, now I'm doing
my advanced EMT coursework.

1750
01:29:03,080 --> 01:29:06,200
It's not, it's certainly not
easy because I, I did not have a

1751
01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:09,960
medical background, you know,
and we didn't do bio outs after

1752
01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:11,800
high school.
So yeah.

1753
01:29:11,800 --> 01:29:14,920
And last night we did a lot of
anatomy and Physiology.

1754
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:17,360
What's been the hardest part for
you of that?

1755
01:29:17,400 --> 01:29:18,800
What's the most challenging part
for you to learn?

1756
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:21,200
I mean, a lot of the challenging
stuff is just taking it from

1757
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:24,440
like, OK, here's the way it is
in the book to like we have an

1758
01:29:24,440 --> 01:29:27,440
actual sick person here and then
here's what you actually do.

1759
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:30,960
So actually like putting on that
non rebreather mask, connecting

1760
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:34,080
it, you know, putting it up to
15 liters per Nets and kind of

1761
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:36,680
actually doing the stuff and
even done it before as far, you

1762
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:38,520
know, it's it's definitely an
interesting job.

1763
01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:42,200
We've got sort of the the
knowledge base you need.

1764
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:45,760
You also need to be fairly good
with people who are probably

1765
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:48,120
having a pretty bad day if
they're having a medical

1766
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:51,640
emergency.
You also need to know all the

1767
01:29:51,640 --> 01:29:55,520
rules of how to, you know, just
kind of all the administrative

1768
01:29:55,520 --> 01:29:57,640
stuff.
There's a lot of pieces that go

1769
01:29:57,640 --> 01:30:01,120
together and it's amazing.
It's just an amazing job that

1770
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:04,240
just it needs all parts of your
brain firing same time.

1771
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:06,160
It's awesome.
It's awesome.

1772
01:30:06,160 --> 01:30:07,840
Yeah.
Dave, thank you so much for the

1773
01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:09,520
time.
This is really so much fun.

1774
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:12,280
Maybe we'll do a Part 2 sometime
soon, especially if you keep on

1775
01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:13,920
working on all these things.
I mean, there's gonna be a lot

1776
01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:16,000
more to talk about, so I would
love to do that.

1777
01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:18,800
But this is a real pleasure.
Thank you so much for your time.

1778
01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:19,800
Yeah.
Thank you.

1779
01:30:20,480 --> 01:30:22,160
Of course, have a great weekend.
All right, Take care.

1780
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:22,680
Thanks.
Have.

1781
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:24,200
A great day.
Bye bye.

1782
01:30:24,960 --> 01:30:25,960
See you.
It's done, done.

1783
01:30:26,320 --> 01:30:29,400
Bye bye.
Waiting for it to finish

1784
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:30,800
uploading.
Thank you again.

1785
01:30:32,480 --> 01:30:35,280
It's stuck at 99% uploading so
maybe it'll finish after I

1786
01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:37,440
close.
Thanks again for the

1787
01:30:37,440 --> 01:30:39,280
opportunity.
I really appreciate it.