History Series 4: William Mann / Hollywood History / Marlon Brando / Black Dahlia

1
00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,000
Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

2
00:00:17,570 --> 00:00:17,810
OK.
And.

3
00:00:18,410 --> 00:00:20,330
We're live.
Awesome, William.

4
00:00:20,330 --> 00:00:21,770
Welcome.
Thanks so much for coming on.

5
00:00:21,770 --> 00:00:23,810
I really appreciate this.
I'm so excited for our talk

6
00:00:23,810 --> 00:00:25,210
today.
Great to be here.

7
00:00:25,210 --> 00:00:28,520
Thanks.
Yeah, so actually one of the

8
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,119
things that struck me when I
when I was, I was doing homework

9
00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:34,920
and I'm trying to find some cool
guests and some people that I

10
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,720
think I'd relate to and I'd be
interested in hearing about

11
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,840
their story and their work.
And I came when I came across

12
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,120
your site, one of the things
that I saw was your emphasis on

13
00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:48,440
how much Hollywood and
entertainment shapes our

14
00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,720
perspective and our values and
stuff like that.

15
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,720
And it's funny because when I
was actually in high school, I

16
00:00:54,720 --> 00:01:00,280
was a a dweeby, hopeless
romantic that had absolutely no

17
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,239
luck with any kind of romance
and.

18
00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,280
And I.
I forgot I was talking to

19
00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,640
friends of mine and and I was
and we were talking about how we

20
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,840
didn't know what the word
romantic even meant.

21
00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,560
We just kind of had the
association of that, you know,

22
00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,800
Adam Sandler, 51st dates, walk
on the beach kind of thing.

23
00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,240
And, you know, and, and then I
realized, and then what, you

24
00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,160
know, the more we were talking
about and thinking about it, the

25
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,520
more that we realized how much
of our definition understanding

26
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,320
of events we just kind of leave
up in the air for Hollywood or

27
00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:34,480
for media around us to kind of
fill in.

28
00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,200
And, you know, so that actually
got me excited down the rabbit

29
00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,280
hole and I wanted to actually
get involved in Hollywood to

30
00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:43,760
have hopefully a positive
impact.

31
00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,560
I didn't, you know, ultimately
or not yet, but you know,

32
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:49,880
hopefully this will be something
like it.

33
00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,920
But I, I, I, I, I was very happy
to notice that you made that

34
00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,640
same observation.
I'd like to just ask how you how

35
00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,920
you came to notice it?
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's

36
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:04,080
unavoidable really.
I mean, media has always

37
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,240
influenced the way we think of
ourselves and how we pursue

38
00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,560
relationships.
All of that, you know, I mean

39
00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,200
it, you know that that predates
the movies and when that, you

40
00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,520
know, that was truly going to
vaudeville and and reading the

41
00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:21,440
you know, the popular press and
all of all of this.

42
00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:28,120
So once popular culture extended
into the masses, because let's

43
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,760
remember way back when, the only
people who saw culture were,

44
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,080
were the elites and they had
their own set of rules, right?

45
00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:42,200
And, and so, and the culture was
kind of responding to their own

46
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,960
traditions and their own
attitudes towards relationships

47
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,920
and identity and all of that.
But once pop culture began

48
00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:54,120
reaching the masses, And so
that's in, you know, the late

49
00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,040
19th century and we're getting,
you know, minstrel shows and

50
00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:03,120
Baudville and, you know, the
Nickelodeon's, the early movies,

51
00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,920
then suddenly the masses began
to look at those images which

52
00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:14,840
were still being done kind of in
imitation of the upper classes.

53
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:20,280
So, and some people began to
aspire and, and popular culture,

54
00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,920
for the most part, this isn't
entirely true, but for the most

55
00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:28,320
part from that point on, popular
culture was aspirational for

56
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,840
people.
So they would look at these

57
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,440
people on the screen or in the
fan magazines or in the, in the

58
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,200
literature they were reading and
they would say, I want to be

59
00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,640
like them.
And, and this became

60
00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:44,120
particularly true during the the
1930s, during the depression,

61
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:48,520
when people were, you know, out
of work and, and struggling.

62
00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,000
And they would look at these
images on the Hollywood screen

63
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,920
and say, oh, if only our lives
could be like that.

64
00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,640
So it, it does two things, I
think.

65
00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,080
And, you know, that that
continues up to today too, in,

66
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,640
in different ways.
People, you know, there's been a

67
00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:07,160
lot of studies on how young
people, especially young girls,

68
00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,920
look at Instagram or social
media and they say, why can't my

69
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,080
life be like that?
And you know, but those lives

70
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,000
are off often as artificial as
the lives that were being shown

71
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:17,760
on the screen of the 1930s,
right?

72
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,720
So, you know, it's, it's
aspirational.

73
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,800
So it, it, it does two things.
It makes you want to strive and

74
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,920
get more, but it also ends up
sometimes making you feel bad

75
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,920
about yourself and that your
lives aren't as good as those

76
00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,440
people we're seeing on the
screen or on on our phones or

77
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:37,760
wherever you're getting these
images.

78
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:42,280
Because it's really the same
thing now that images and pop

79
00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:46,040
culture reaches everyone,
everyone's kind of dealing with

80
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,600
That's the same issues like like
you say about what does it mean

81
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,200
if I fall in love?
You know, how what do I expect

82
00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,560
my partner to be and act?
And you know, you know, and so

83
00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,800
there's all these expectations
that are thrown at people, and

84
00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,120
sometimes that's hard to live up
to.

85
00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,600
Yeah, definitely.
And what's I think that was

86
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:03,840
great.
And I actually think

87
00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:11,440
additionally, we know that
that's you, we, if you ask most

88
00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,600
people, you know, is it good for
you to be doing this or to be

89
00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,320
honest?
And what's the impact it has on

90
00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,320
you?
I think most people are

91
00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,560
completely cognizant of what
it's doing to them.

92
00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:25,000
But like there's a, there's a
dissonance between what, you

93
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,800
know, to be unhealthy and like
what you want to consume.

94
00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,080
You know, I mean, the same way
that and, and the kind of way,

95
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,720
and I've said this before, but I
look at everything almost like

96
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,040
an opportunity for either junk
food or healthy food.

97
00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,640
And, you know, every now and
then it's not too bad to have a

98
00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,840
couple of slices of pizza.
But if that's all you're doing,

99
00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:44,640
then we got some serious
problems.

100
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,040
And, you know, in the way that
we kind of expose ourselves to,

101
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,200
it definitely makes a huge
difference on our psyche, even

102
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,360
if even if we're aware of it.
Like, you can watch yourself

103
00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,160
slip into the rabbit hole and
you're like, Oh my God, this is

104
00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,200
this is real, you know?
Yeah, yeah, so true.

105
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,480
And then, you know, I think even
I'm the same way.

106
00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,160
So I'll try to eat healthy.
And then I say today I'm I'm

107
00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,600
going to get some pizza or I'm
just going to get a bag of chips

108
00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,520
and eat some.
And and it almost feels like

109
00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,280
you're rewarding yourself, like,
OK, I've been good.

110
00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:14,240
So and I'm going to give myself
this reward.

111
00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,880
And I think that's the wrong
mentality because what you're

112
00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,240
actually doing, you know, it is
not a reward.

113
00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,680
You're actually, you know,
harming yourself in some way.

114
00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,160
So I think it I don't I agree.
I couldn't live life without

115
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,240
pizza.
So, but at the same time, I

116
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,480
think we have to, you know,
change that mentality that like,

117
00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:38,400
OK, I'll, I'll be good.
I'll, I'll stay off of Instagram

118
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,760
for a week and then I'm going to
go back and just like go crazy,

119
00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,440
you know, So it's, we really
have to understand what we're

120
00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,680
doing here.
Yeah, that's a great way to put

121
00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,520
it.
That's I, I never even thought

122
00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,240
of it like that.
And I actually, I bet if I

123
00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,520
implemented that, a lot of my
vices would be a lot more in

124
00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,440
control, you know, but that's a,
that's a great way of thinking

125
00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,160
of it.
So, so tell me a little bit.

126
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,520
So, so you have such a, such a
cool career.

127
00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,760
You've written such a wide
variety of of, of books and, and

128
00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,640
even within the genres like you,
there's so many different cross

129
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,840
genres that you've kind of dive
dove into.

130
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,400
And the ones I'm really
particularly interested in is

131
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,280
like I mentioned Hollywood and
either the history.

132
00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,280
And I know that you have a new
book coming out that I want to

133
00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,280
talk a little bit about as well,
which kind of falls a little bit

134
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,840
more into the true crime,
unresolved, unresolved crime

135
00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,960
world.
Do you mind to just tell me a

136
00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,120
little bit about how you got
into this whole world and what

137
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:36,400
kind of inspired you?
Yeah, I mean, since I was a kid,

138
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,480
I was always fascinated by the
cinema of my parents.

139
00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,880
You know, it's interesting.
I, you know, I'd like the movies

140
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,760
that I saw growing up, but I
just became really fascinated by

141
00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:51,120
this world, that it wasn't a
world that I knew, you know, you

142
00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,800
know, watching these movies.
And I remember being a kid

143
00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,440
because it was the days before
YouTube and everything.

144
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,480
So I'd have to wait until some
of these movies were shown on

145
00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,360
television.
And and, you know, sometimes

146
00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,400
they'd be at 11:30 at night and
my mother would say you can't

147
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:08,960
stay up that late.
You have school in the morning.

148
00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:10,400
But like, I've got to see this
one.

149
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,240
I've never seen this one.
This is this is Clark Gable and

150
00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,280
Joan Crawford.
And, you know, it's it's one

151
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,280
that's never, never shown.
And I have to.

152
00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,360
And so, you know, she sometimes
let me, not always.

153
00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,920
But So, yeah, I had this
fascination with with Hollywood

154
00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,720
and I didn't expect to grow up
to write about it.

155
00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,840
I think when I was younger, I
wanted to be after and I wanted

156
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,480
to, I wanted to be in movies
rather than write about them.

157
00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:37,919
But that was never going to
happen.

158
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:44,039
So I, you know, I, I pitched
this idea, you know, I, I had

159
00:08:44,039 --> 00:08:47,400
never written a book before, but
I pitched an idea and I did some

160
00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:52,600
freelance writing.
So I started doing, you know,

161
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,920
articles about old Hollywood
figures and they got picked up.

162
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,320
And then from there I was able
to, you know, get a book

163
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,000
contract and then and then start
this career as a Hollywood

164
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,480
biographer, a Hollywood
historian, which, you know, when

165
00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:07,520
I was in high school, I didn't,
you know, I didn't think that's

166
00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,840
what I was going to be, but it
turned out to be in, you know,

167
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,880
it's it's work that I love.
So I'm very fortunate to do work

168
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,880
and and at this point in my
career, choose the subjects I do

169
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,320
too.
So that's really important

170
00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:25,560
because in the past, sometimes
I've had to do, I've had to do

171
00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:28,880
projects that I were my ideas.
And that's the hardest thing.

172
00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,760
You know, for those of you who
write you or your and your, your

173
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,280
listeners try to write.
It's always easier if you're

174
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,640
writing about something you care
about and you're interested in.

175
00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,440
You know, remember those
assignments in school?

176
00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,160
We had to write about something.
That otherwise it's blowing

177
00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,040
teeth.
Care at all about.

178
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,680
So yeah, yeah.
So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm very

179
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,440
fortunate.
I think it's so I think it's

180
00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:55,280
really cool, especially because
it at least for me, you know, I,

181
00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,120
I, you know, and again, I also
wanted to kind of be in that

182
00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,080
world and I knew that I really
wasn't ever going to be.

183
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:01,480
I didn't want to move to
California.

184
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,440
I didn't want to play that kind
of everyone kind of knows this.

185
00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:09,200
Well, I you hope not everyone,
but there's a pretty sick game

186
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,560
that is Hollywood that goes into
get into becoming famous and

187
00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:15,720
becoming a star.
And, you know, maybe some people

188
00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:16,800
avoid it.
I'm sure they do.

189
00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,120
And, you know, but I know that a
lot of people have to kind of

190
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,200
play that game and I wasn't
really interested in it at all.

191
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,800
And I was really devastated for
a while because I thought this

192
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:27,960
was my passion and like there
was no other way to achieve it.

193
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,000
And, you know, and then me and
talking to gentlemen like

194
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,920
yourself and talking.
I had another gentleman, Sean

195
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,760
Levy, who also wrote a bunch of
great biographies about that,

196
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,280
you know, great actors in
Hollywood and in history.

197
00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,040
And and you find that people
really can pursue their passions

198
00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,120
and find a way to make it work.
And I think that's like it end

199
00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,440
of it, that end of itself is
something so valuable because I

200
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,960
teach high school, you know, and
a lot of my and it's funny, it's

201
00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,880
actually in a in a Orthodox
Jewish school and a lot of the

202
00:10:54,880 --> 00:11:02,480
students come from very
conservative and, and it's, you

203
00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,560
know, not a conservative
backgrounds.

204
00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,480
And, you know, and, and it is
the parents want them to kind of

205
00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,160
fit into.
And so if you talk to them about

206
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,880
anything like, you know, Oh
well, career about if this, if I

207
00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,360
have students that have loved
films in Hollywood without the

208
00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,080
years and, you know, and you
want to encourage them without

209
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,640
stepping on the family's toes.
And I think that one of the ways

210
00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,680
to do this is to really like,
hey, is you're not too young to

211
00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:26,640
find your own voice.
If there's a if there's a movie

212
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,840
you like write about, I'll give
you credit for it.

213
00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,680
You know, if there's, if there's
something that you enjoy that

214
00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:33,080
you want to come up with, do it,
You know, And if we if we find a

215
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,360
way to do your own expression of
what, what caught you on fire

216
00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,640
about the about the film world
to begin with, then maybe you

217
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,160
could, you know, maybe you could
live a life that is fulfilling

218
00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:44,640
in that kind of sense, you know?
Right.

219
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,240
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think really do have

220
00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:47,560
to encourage people where
they're at.

221
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:53,440
And I've done the same thing.
I teach, I teach at the

222
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,480
university level and I'm also
fortunate that I usually have

223
00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,320
upper classmen.
So you know, you know,

224
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,360
passionate, you know, juniors
and and seniors.

225
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,800
So I don't have to be as
insistent that you have to do

226
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,160
their for forms sake.
You're going to I allow them to

227
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,680
choose their topics because
it's, you know, like I said, if

228
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,800
writing about something you
don't care about is so difficult

229
00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,920
and I don't really think it's a
great way to learn either.

230
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,360
I mean, you have to have a
passion for what you're doing.

231
00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:26,760
And yeah, but you know,
obviously it's also cultural.

232
00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:32,680
So, you know, I've had students
who have, you know, you know,

233
00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:36,720
come from similar backgrounds.
And so they're not comfortable

234
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,120
writing about some of the things
and I and they, and they worry

235
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,480
like, oh, am I ever going to be,
you know, just, you know, no

236
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,240
matter where you are in life,
there are things that interest

237
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,760
you and can can be embraced.
So I, you know, I encourage them

238
00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,800
to, you know, recognize their
parameters, but then also do let

239
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,000
your imagination go as far as
they can.

240
00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,440
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
I think it's great.

241
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,880
So let's so let's dive a little
bit into some of the history

242
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,240
now.
I think I think I would love to

243
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,560
do that.
So, so we you want to start with

244
00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:09,920
your newest book or do you want
to start with actually

245
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,320
Tinseltown?
Because I actually didn't want

246
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:12,840
to ask you about that too.
That looked, Yeah.

247
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,800
Let's start with sure.
Cool.

248
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,160
Tell me a little bit about it
please.

249
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,760
Well, Tinseltown is was my first
departure from strict

250
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:24,920
biographies that I'd, I'd
written, you know, I'd written

251
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,480
about Katharine Hepburn and
Elizabeth Taylor and Barbra

252
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:33,680
Streisand and I, you know,
enjoyed those books.

253
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,440
They weren't always my ideas.
You know, Hepburn was my idea.

254
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,920
Taylor and Streisand were my
editors ideas.

255
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,680
And I really want to do
something that that I felt

256
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:51,280
really interested to dig into.
And there was this unsolved

257
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:57,080
murder from 1922 that had kind
of gone down in, in history and

258
00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,360
and many people would try to
solve it in the past.

259
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,120
And I said, you know, I'm more
interested in how that murder

260
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,760
transformed Hollywood.
I'm less interested in trying

261
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,400
to, you know, solve it because I
think, right.

262
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,960
You want to do.
That 100 years later to solve it

263
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,920
for certain right.
So I'm, I'm more interested in,

264
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,760
in telling the bigger story
about what happened after that

265
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,840
murder in Hollywood, which was
that they created all sorts of

266
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,400
structures to, you know, contain
the scandal and how they, you

267
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,320
know, you know, started the
studio system, which was a top

268
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,200
down power structure, vertical
integration of the industry.

269
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,520
So I used the murder as a way in
to tell that story.

270
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,000
And I, I really, really enjoyed
doing that.

271
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,400
I mean, I came up with what I
thought was a reasonable

272
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,960
possible theory.
I never said, hey, I've solved

273
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:53,560
it.
But I said, you know, what about

274
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:59,160
if we look at it this way?
But I didn't, you know, I never

275
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,320
really straight from the idea
that I was telling this bigger

276
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:06,720
story about society and the
culture and and specifically

277
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:12,720
around how the American Film
industry came out of that, that

278
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:18,200
scandal to create what we now
know as classic American cinema,

279
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,440
you know, And so that it was
really it was a great

280
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,840
experience.
I really loved being able to dig

281
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,680
in in that way, you know, unfold
a mystery as I was writing and,

282
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,080
and that's what made me
interested in the newest book.

283
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,480
Cool, cool.
And what when you're doing

284
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,400
research, you know, especially
when you're taking such a pretty

285
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,360
dramatic departure in genres.
I know that, you know, obviously

286
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,160
the, the, the research is
research and homework is

287
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,960
homework.
But what you know, I guess when

288
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,960
you're writing biography, it's a
lot less put, you know, connect.

289
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,800
I'm sure there's plenty of
connecting dots, but you know,

290
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,400
when you're trying to when
you're observing A cause and

291
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,560
effect and you know, and like
the consequences that are

292
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,760
outgrowth of cause and effect.
I think there's a lot more,

293
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,360
there's a lot more information
and you kind of have to just

294
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,400
kind of sort it together and try
to put it together.

295
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,480
What's the difference in terms
of the research that you had to

296
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,320
do and what how'd you go about
conducting it as opposed to the

297
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,400
biographies?
Well, dude, there, there are

298
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,880
similarities.
I mean, you know, one thing that

299
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,520
I've always said is, you know,
like, you know, there's a new

300
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,480
biography out of some figure,
whether it be, you know,

301
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,000
Hollywood or political or
historical.

302
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,160
And I always look at the
sources.

303
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,600
And if the sources most like in
the footnotes, you know, the

304
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:41,360
endnotes and if they're largely
sourcing other published works,

305
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,000
so other secondary sources, I
have no interest in reading it

306
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,680
because the research really
determines what you're going to

307
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:53,080
be able to say.
So, you know, I'm, I, I, I will

308
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,800
read other books on my subjects
and, and reference them if

309
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,280
they've got found something and
I want to give them credit.

310
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,240
But I, I, I, the majority of my,
my, my sources have to be

311
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,800
primary, have to be stuff that
you'd never think of to when you

312
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:13,079
want to research someone's life.
And in this case, you know it

313
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,960
both in the biographies, but
even more so in the true crime

314
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,280
works that I've done.
You really have to, you know,

315
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,000
send out as wide a net as
possible.

316
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:30,320
You have to look at census
records.

317
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,560
You have to look at military
records.

318
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,200
You have to.
And what's so great now, which

319
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,120
is not wasn't the case when I
first started writing, is that

320
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:45,000
we have 10s of thousands or
maybe even hundreds of thousands

321
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,240
of newspapers that have been
digitized.

322
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,960
You can search these for like
the most obscure mention of your

323
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,760
person or your incident.
And, and, and sometimes that one

324
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,120
little mention can tell you, you
know, take you in a whole new

325
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,720
Ave. research.
So it's really about being as

326
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,600
exhaustive as possible.
In the old days, I think when

327
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,720
people would do biographies,
they would they would rely on

328
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,840
newspaper clippings which
weren't digitized.

329
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,920
You're only getting what the
person kept And and then

330
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,720
interviews with people and
interviews are are vital to any

331
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,440
book, right to any, any project.
You need to talk to the people

332
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,600
who are involved or who knew
people that were involved.

333
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,800
But memory and we can this is a
whole other discussion.

334
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:38,200
We can talk about memory is this
unreliable thing that one person

335
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,280
can remember something one way
and another person is going to

336
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:46,360
remember it another way.
And often times those memories

337
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:49,160
change as a year.
Years go on and tell.

338
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,680
The story, yeah.
And yeah, and it's, and I, you

339
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,160
know, having interviewed a lot
of Hollywood type people,

340
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,320
they're born to embellishment.
So they'll say, oh, yes.

341
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,120
And then we went, we did this.
And I'm like, oh, you did.

342
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:04,520
I mean, it doesn't make, you
know, here's the record.

343
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,360
It shows you we weren't there on
that night.

344
00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:10,000
So how do you know that?
Well, you know, and so you have

345
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,000
to be really careful.
So I actually think the the

346
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,240
archival research is more
important than the interviews.

347
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,400
The interview's important, but
you need to do the archival

348
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,200
research first so that when you
get to the interviews, you can

349
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,920
kind of cut the bullshit.
You know you can figure out

350
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,640
what's what's real and what's
not.

351
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,200
That's really cool.
It's really, really cool.

352
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:30,000
It's smart.
Yeah.

353
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:35,160
That's yeah, I know.
I I, I was kind of hoping that

354
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,000
was just a me problem that I,
that in my memories, you know,

355
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,120
that the more I tell a story,
the more it changes.

356
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:44,120
And, you know, my wife will have
called me out, you know, be

357
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:46,480
like, you know, you told a story
a little different than last

358
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,160
time.
And I'm like, yeah, I think last

359
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,400
time you said it was, you said
it was half an hour later,

360
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:52,520
something like that, you know,
but.

361
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,080
Yeah, and then eventually start
thinking it was, you know, and

362
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,760
you know, I, my, my sister has a
much better.

363
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:04,760
Detail memory than I do.
So like we'll say, I'll say

364
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,320
something about, you know, did
we ride the, the bus home from

365
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:10,960
school?
And she was like, yeah, we did.

366
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,640
And don't you remember?
Because I always stopped here

367
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,800
and so and so always sat in
front of us and I'm like, no, I

368
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,680
have no memory of that.
So it's really great to have

369
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,360
people have memories like that.
But oftentimes, and like,

370
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:25,440
there's no way I can what, I, I
can't judge whether her memory

371
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,120
is correct or not either, you
know?

372
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:30,120
So memory, it's just a funny
thing and it's different between

373
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:32,680
different people.
Definitely, definitely.

374
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,800
So tell me a little bit about
the power dynamics that did

375
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,120
change as a consequence of this
murder that the unresolved

376
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,640
murder in Hollywood, because
there's a great book that I

377
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:45,960
there's a pretty good book, but
the information was great.

378
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,160
The the way it was written was
not my speed, but called easy

379
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,920
was Easy Rider Raging Bull and
it talked about the shift in

380
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,760
power dynamics in Hollywood over
the course of the decades.

381
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,920
Right.
So from producers to directors

382
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,840
to actors to now studios today,
you know what, what was the

383
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,080
structure before?
And of course, in the 20s,

384
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,600
filmmaking was a very different
world, you know, So want to

385
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,440
elaborate a little bit just for,
you know, just to kind of teach

386
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,040
audience.
Yeah, sure.

387
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,960
The the book you mentioned, easy
writers, Raging Bulls is

388
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,880
actually a book about the tail
end of the period of that I was

389
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,760
describing that came into
existence.

390
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:40,600
So the structures are similar
and the So what what came into

391
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:48,440
existence in 1922 was hold, hold
on a second, I've got a right in

392
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,480
here.
Back, yeah.

393
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,960
Yeah.
So the book Easy Riders, Raging

394
00:21:53,960 --> 00:22:01,080
Bulls was about the period that
came after the period that I

395
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,160
described coming into existence
in the 1920s, which was a period

396
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,360
of time in which of
consolidation.

397
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,760
The, the film industry was very
new at that point.

398
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,280
And it was the Hollywood was
sort of the Wild West.

399
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,680
And so you had all these
independent players and people

400
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,320
were making films and, you know,
and then they would just, you

401
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,320
know, drive them over to the, to
the theaters to show them.

402
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:32,080
And there was no top down
control, you know, and, and

403
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,120
distributors were different from
exhibitors and producers were

404
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:40,560
different from the actors.
And and by the time of the

405
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,160
murder, the movie studios were
coming to existence and they

406
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,480
were making a ton of money, more
than they any they ever possibly

407
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,680
imagined.
So there were big stakes here

408
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,120
and the, the guys who were
running the, the, the studios

409
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,920
realize that unless we get some
control over this industry, any

410
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,280
little scandal like this or big
scandal like this could take us

411
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,120
down and then we lose all this
money.

412
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,840
The federal government was
threatening to step in and

413
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,120
control the industry.
You know, there was even a

414
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:17,880
period of time where people
were, some people were pushing

415
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,840
for state control of the of the
film industry.

416
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,200
So we would have, it would have
been like the Soviet Union,

417
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,080
right, controlling our our
student or chat.

418
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,080
Yeah.
And because at the time they

419
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,920
were saying that they were the
film industry was breaking

420
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:40,200
antitrust laws and all that.
So, so, so the guys who were

421
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,200
putting this together realized,
hey, we should vertically

422
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,880
integrate the industry.
We should, we should not only

423
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,720
make the films, but we should
distribute them.

424
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,400
And then we should own the
theaters that show them so they,

425
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,200
you know, they were essentially
building trusts for themselves.

426
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,200
But it, it created this this
factory system by which movies

427
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,640
were made for the next 40 years.
And it was incredibly

428
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,320
successful.
And even though it stifled some

429
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,400
voices, like women's voices,
before this, women were we're

430
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,160
working as producers and
directors and writers and under

431
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,720
the studio system, of course, it
becomes an old boy network and

432
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,760
and women are are reduced to,
you know, lower, lower positions

433
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,920
of authority.
So but it, you know, it really

434
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,560
does create these, you know,
amazing, beautiful films that

435
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,600
still stand the test of time,
even though they're very

436
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,640
different from the way films are
made today.

437
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,800
But they, you know, people still
go to watch old films and, and

438
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,760
so there was there was benefits
and good things.

439
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,280
But by the 1960s, you know, and,
and so I should just back up and

440
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:59,760
say that the, the scandals, that
wasn't just the scandal of

441
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,640
William Desmond Taylor's murder
that I was writing about, but

442
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,960
there were other scandals as
well, notably Roscoe Arbuckle,

443
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:13,800
who was, you know, the biggest
comedian in town, both both

444
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,720
monetarily and physically.
He was known as Fatty Arbuckle.

445
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:20,240
And he, he was charged with
manslaughter and rape.

446
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:26,040
And so he, you know, his death
occurred, I'm sorry, his arrest

447
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,840
occurred right at this time of
Taylor's, Taylor's murder.

448
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:37,000
So it was all of this criticism
of, of the morals of Hollywood

449
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:44,360
and, and mostly led by very
conservative Protestant

450
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:48,240
ministers, later joined by
Orthodox students and Roman

451
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:54,800
Catholics and insisted that the
movies be cleaned up.

452
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,600
And so to avoid that, the
student, the studios create,

453
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:03,080
they're all their own in house,
not so much in house, but it's,

454
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,240
it's a form of self censorship
where this, this, this

455
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,280
production code administration
that they set up and hired the

456
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:16,320
guy to run it would, would have
the power to oversee filmmaking

457
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,400
rather than the federal
government.

458
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:22,880
So all of this structure, all
this corporatization of the film

459
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,120
industry lasts, as I said, for
40 some years.

460
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,600
And, and then by the time of the
late 1960s, with all the social

461
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,920
uprising and turmoil and, and,
you know, changing values and a

462
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,360
generational change and all of
that, we see the breakdown of

463
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:43,280
that structure, which then
creates the, a new renaissance

464
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,920
of films.
So the films in the late 60s and

465
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,920
1970s are, you know, some of the
best films ever made.

466
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,080
And, you know, so it's really in
both cases.

467
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,120
But that book you mentioned and,
and the book I wrote is a really

468
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:58,920
about how the, how Hollywood
structured itself and, and how

469
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,480
it supplanted 1 system and
created a new one, you know, and

470
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,920
now of course, Hollywood's very
different yet again.

471
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,560
But you know, it's you're
reverting back to that demo

472
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,320
democratization of, of, of
creating film.

473
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,120
Yes, yes, there is there.
There certainly is more of that,

474
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,040
though.
I think there's still you know

475
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:25,200
what what gets made is, you
know, you know, and that's a

476
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,800
whole nother discussion.
But you know, what gets made for

477
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,320
theaters, you know, up until
very recently, it's been just

478
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,880
super hero movies and, and, you
know, it's which eliminates a

479
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,240
whole section of the audience
And, and then, you know, the

480
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:45,040
more complex, nuanced work is
being done, you know, for

481
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,920
streaming.
So, you know, it's, but it's all

482
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,400
really the same thing, you know,
and it's, it's just about

483
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,320
different platforms and
different buying and selling.

484
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,960
Yeah.
Yeah, I, there's a there's a

485
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,880
great book by a gentleman, Ben
Fritz, who I mentioned this

486
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,120
actually last time a couple
episodes ago too, because I'll

487
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:06,360
make a brief.
But he, he made that same

488
00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:09,600
argument that you made and said
that the, the, the fundamental

489
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,600
difference between the movies
that are getting made today as

490
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,840
opposed to 20 years ago is that
we have a global market now that

491
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,640
the studios have to tap into.
And so most of the films that go

492
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,000
to theaters have to be
translatable to an audience that

493
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,760
doesn't necessarily understand
the nuance of American culture.

494
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:29,120
And whereas the streaming
services, they care about

495
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:30,880
subscribers, not about the box
office.

496
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,560
And so they want to make content
for any, you know, from from

497
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,000
Orthodox Jews to Catholic
priests to, you know, and, and

498
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,400
they want, they want everyone
everywhere to be watching all

499
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,520
their content all the time.
And so everything kind of gets

500
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,480
greenlit as a consequence or
which isn't, you know, I

501
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,520
actually don't know if I had
necessarily have a problem with

502
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,880
that, especially when you have
the beauty of what you call it

503
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,640
of a curated algorithm.
You know, and I mean to know

504
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,840
really how much content Netflix
has, go to five different

505
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,040
friends house and look at what
the say, look at their Netflix

506
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,960
cut feed and see how different
you don't even know that half

507
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,680
this stuff is on there, you
know, and they just keep it.

508
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,720
Going Yeah, yeah, I'm old.
So my friends are always saying

509
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,320
have you seen this?
No, I never heard of that one,

510
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,280
you know, but it does because it
hasn't come up in my, you know,

511
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,960
my feed.
But yeah, but that's where you

512
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,840
find new stuff too.
And and I agree.

513
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:28,320
I think what's so great is it is
more of a democratization of

514
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:35,680
voices.
And it's also, however, I think

515
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,920
it's also problematic for those
who are creating that content

516
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,480
because, you know, if you look
at it's why the writers, you

517
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,640
know, the Writers Guild has
been, you know, struggling

518
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,880
because they don't, they don't
get paid what they used to do.

519
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,480
And they're, they're, they're,
you know, I remember when I was

520
00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:00,200
a kid, a new, new series comes
on and you get 36 episodes a

521
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,360
year, a season.
You're lucky, you know.

522
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:11,640
And so that means, you know, 24
episodes aren't there that

523
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,880
writers might have gotten paid
for, you know, So that's really,

524
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:20,480
that's really the struggle with
this new model is that it's, you

525
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,840
know, for writers and and also
for actors in a certain, to a

526
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,400
certain degree, they're they're
certainly not getting to pay.

527
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,840
But meanwhile, Netflix and other
streaming services are pocketing

528
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,280
huge amounts of money, but
they're reluctant to share that

529
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,360
with the people who are creating
that content.

530
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,280
So that's the thing I think we
need to be looking at.

531
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,320
Yeah, and I've heard there's a
great podcast that I listen to

532
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:44,920
called The Town with Matt
Bellamy.

533
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,480
Matthew Bellamy.
It's great.

534
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,760
It's half an hour a couple times
a week about the purely the

535
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,400
business of Hollywood.
And one argument that he makes,

536
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,480
he's like, listen, Netflix makes
a ton of money that these that a

537
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,920
lot of the artists don't see the
back end of, but Netflix pays

538
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,960
them a lot more upfront and
they're all and, you know, and,

539
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,960
you know, often 2-3 times what
their typical fee is.

540
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,120
And they say, you know what,
like, listen, you can, you can

541
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,560
try to have your cake and eat it
too.

542
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,520
And by the way, I'm not even
necessarily making an argument

543
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,680
for Netflix because again, at a
certain point there's enough

544
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,960
money to go around in my own
philosophy about these kind of

545
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,840
short term business decision
making, decision make, you know,

546
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,720
choices that companies are
forced to make on a quarterly

547
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,160
earning basis, I think is a
little absurd for the well-being

548
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,480
of any long term company.
But, you know, regardless, I, I

549
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:38,240
think that, I think that I think
that the democratization of this

550
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,040
information also comes as a
consequence, I think of a

551
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,400
collapse of, and this happening
everywhere, a collapse of trust

552
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,440
and institution and an
appreciation for institution.

553
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,760
And I think that we almost had a
generation, we skipped a

554
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,040
generation of leaders.
It almost feels like, you know,

555
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:58,800
whether you're looking in
Hollywood, we're looking at

556
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,080
politicians, whether you're
looking at, you know, the

557
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,560
youngest, you know, like the
average A list actor, writer,

558
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,960
celebrity, you see, they're not
2530 years old.

559
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,360
You know, you don't even.
Have 40, not even 40.

560
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,480
Yeah.
I mean, and so like, you wonder,

561
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,680
like, hey, is it that no one's
interested B Is it that the

562
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,320
people are not giving up
control?

563
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,200
And like, you know, I mean, the
biggest problem that Disney, for

564
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,640
example, has always had for the
had has had since the 90s or

565
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,040
even earlier was a predator with
predecessors, you know, was that

566
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,480
Michael Eisner couldn't, you
know, couldn't hand the reins

567
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,720
over to anyone.
And Bob Iger won't pick anyone

568
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,400
to hand the reins over to.
And, you know, and well, even

569
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,040
they didn't have a plan after
Disney, you know, So like, I

570
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,920
think that that a big problem
comes with a lack of a lack of

571
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,360
appreciation for the future
generations and to try to mold

572
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,320
and shape new young leaders.
And then you kind of, and then

573
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,120
that that system falls apart.
And then a new and then the

574
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,520
young people pick up the pieces
and they do it in their own kind

575
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,080
of language and they do it in
their own kind of way.

576
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,840
True, very true, 100% true.
And I think part of that the

577
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,000
issue is that there were just so
many damn baby boomers.

578
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,480
I mean, there's just, you know,
there was.

579
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,520
So I mean, they're, they're just
way too many of them, you know,

580
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:17,480
they just keep holding on.
I mean, I, you know, I'm, I'm, I

581
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:18,400
guess I'm Gen.
X.

582
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,800
So we're the ones who kind of
like didn't get up, you know,

583
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,360
after that.
And but and but then you get to

584
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,920
millennials and and Gen.
Z and it's like, you know,

585
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,960
they're still they're waiting.
Yeah.

586
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,040
So that's totally true.
And yeah.

587
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,600
And and it's it's unfortunate.
I also think it's because, you

588
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,880
know, this is bigger, this is
the biggest conversation, which

589
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,360
I'm not sure who we want to get
into, but you know, this kind of

590
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,880
normalization of greed that it's
really all about profits and you

591
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,680
just make as much as you can
and, and you yourself and you

592
00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,960
keep it and you know, it's it's,
I don't know if that's, you

593
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,760
know, I think it's that's a
problem.

594
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,480
I mean, you know.
I think it is too.

595
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,200
I think it is.
Everything, you know, everything

596
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,760
in life now is, you know,
monetized to the NTH degree.

597
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,760
It's there's no longer like
we're going to give this to our

598
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,000
consumers or we're going to give
this to our customers because

599
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,199
they've been loyal.
You know, there's always

600
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,360
something, you know, the whole
frequent flyer miles on

601
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,679
interference, it's a whole big
scam, you know, and it's, it's

602
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:30,920
just too bad because I'm old
enough to remember a time when,

603
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,840
you know, there were giveaways
at stores, you know, for our

604
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,560
loyal patrons this week.
Come on in and you all get a

605
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,199
free blah, blah, blah.
You know, if they do that now,

606
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:41,320
there's always something
attached.

607
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,600
You got to give me your e-mail
or something so they can, they

608
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,120
can hound you or something.
You know, it's, it's really

609
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,840
true.
And so these baby boomers just,

610
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,080
they're not ready to give up
because they want to keep

611
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,320
killing those Clippers more and
more and more anyways.

612
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,800
Yeah, and it's a shame because
you would think that at a

613
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,640
certain amount.
Listen, I'm freaking 30 and I

614
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,560
know, and I realize it's
already, but you're not taking

615
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,280
anything with you anyway.
You know, I like that.

616
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:05,640
You know, you're not taking
anything with you.

617
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,040
And the only thing you're
leaving behind is a world

618
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,400
that's, you know, having a
little bit of a harder time.

619
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,400
And that's that's what it seems
to me.

620
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,720
Yeah, it's, it's sad because
too, I've been working on some,

621
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,960
some, some some other writing
projects and, you know, I was

622
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:28,520
writing about my grandfather
who, who, you know, as a kid,

623
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,440
you know, there were no cars.
I mean, there were cars, but he

624
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,400
lived in a farm area, so there
were no cars, you know, for him

625
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,920
to use.
And, you know, and he saw the

626
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,880
world is constantly getting
better and better and better and

627
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,720
better.
You know, suddenly there were

628
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:44,800
vaccines and they were, there
were, you know, measures to keep

629
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,200
pollution and, you know, in
check all this stuff.

630
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:48,560
So he saw the world getting
better and better.

631
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,480
And, and my father too, to an
extent that we lived a long,

632
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,520
long enough to see the world
starting to go down.

633
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,560
What what about today?
I mean, generations are making

634
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,200
less than what their parents
made.

635
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,920
That's the first time in
history, in American history

636
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,080
that that's happened, that
children are making, you know,

637
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,080
grown adult children are making
less than what their parents,

638
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,000
which is just wrong.
Yeah, and it's yeah.

639
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:14,320
And I've, you know, I've been,
I've been thinking about this

640
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,760
and talking about I just bought,
I bought my house for the first

641
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,240
time and you know, I called my
dad before I did.

642
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:22,240
I'm asking his opinion on
whether he thinks a good idea.

643
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:24,440
And you know, I have to put X
amount down and just how much it

644
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,360
is like, what do you think?
He's like what I think he goes,

645
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,960
I was 25 and I bought, you know,
my first house for 150 grand.

646
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,880
I was making $90,000 a year.
And you know, in my salary and,

647
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:38,360
and typically speaking,
whatever.

648
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,160
And by the way, and also to be
fair, for example, my, my, my

649
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,640
own, my, my, my mom, the house,
my mom grew up and my

650
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,200
grandparents lived in it.
My grandfather bought it.

651
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,760
He was a high school teacher.
But it's a 3 bedroom, 1 1/2

652
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,840
bathroom house that five people
lived in, you know, and so at

653
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,520
the time, I think that expected.
And so there's one shower for

654
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,240
everyone to use, you know, and
there's one bathroom, there's

655
00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:00,560
one downstairs that was like a
little closet and that was in

656
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,000
like, I think that our yardstick
have also changed a little bit

657
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,760
to be a little fair, but that
doesn't necessarily but like,

658
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,480
but again, if someone's making
$100,000 and the average cost of

659
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,000
a house is $600,000 in America
like that, how does that how do,

660
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:16,160
how do the numbers make any
sense?

661
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,720
And then the issue becomes, and
I've heard this put so

662
00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:22,320
eloquently, people playing the
game that have they've been told

663
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,960
is what you need to do to
succeed, are now stuck with debt

664
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,480
and stuck with credit card debt
to it, you know, tuition debt,

665
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,600
whatever, whatever you have.
And then they're like, what's

666
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,800
the point even playing this game
if you can never get out from

667
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,680
underneath it?
And So what do you do?

668
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,760
You, you, you turn your, do you
turn to your own system?

669
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,640
And I think that I think that
this happens one way or the OR

670
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,080
the other.
I'm a huge fan of 60 cultures.

671
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,320
I don't know if you can, I have
a bunch of posters behind me

672
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,840
from, you know, the dead and
brothers and, you know, and

673
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,400
Woodstock.
But one thing that I've noticed

674
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:01,480
is that people that experience
hardship explode creatively.

675
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,160
You know what?
And you know, black music has

676
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,520
been freaking incredible
throughout America, you know,

677
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,760
throughout for in history and
you're and you're like Blues,

678
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,920
like what you know, like and it
doesn't happen every.

679
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,680
Every music form has its roots
in African American culture,

680
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,720
whether it be jazz, rock'n'roll,
balloons, I mean all of it.

681
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:27,480
Soul, I mean all of this.
You came from the hard, you came

682
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,040
with a hard time and the hippies
that were rejected by their

683
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,480
families and rejected by their
parents and post World War 2 and

684
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,160
McCarthyism and all of that.
And they're just like, I don't

685
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,320
want this.
And you get the Grateful Dead,

686
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,480
you get Jerry Garcia, you get
the almond.

687
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,280
I mean, so so I think that we're
seeing, we're hopefully going to

688
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,200
see something similar.
And it's interesting because

689
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,040
even musically we're seeing that
kind of revival.

690
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:53,240
There's Billy Strings kid who's
my age is, is on fire.

691
00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:57,480
I mean, and, and, and he's
bringing an American spirit to

692
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,720
back to the country that is
really, really special and

693
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:02,400
really unique and I'm really
excited about it.

694
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:03,600
That's great.
Yeah.

695
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,040
Yeah.
And, you know, the irony, of

696
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,280
course, is those baby boomers
who stood up against the system

697
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,680
and, you know, change the system
are now are, you know, they were

698
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,840
the hippies and now they're the
people holding on to power.

699
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,280
That's right.
So if your generation is

700
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,040
changing the things, then you
got to remember that 40 years

701
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,320
down the road.
It's OK.

702
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,120
It's time to, you know, let
other people in.

703
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:24,480
That's right.
That's right.

704
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,080
So, so let's talk a little bit
actually.

705
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,120
You know, one interesting
closing point that my, that the

706
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,320
gentleman Sean that I
interviewed, the other

707
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,080
biographer talked about was the
difference between writing a

708
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,200
biography about someone that's
alive and someone that's dead

709
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,640
and, and how tricky it could get
when you're writing about

710
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,480
someone that's alive.
Have you found that that to be?

711
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,000
Have you found that to be a
problem yourself?

712
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,480
Yeah, I always say that my I
prefer my subjects to be long

713
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,560
dead, OK?
Because you know, you don't run

714
00:39:52,560 --> 00:40:02,800
into issues when I was writing.
So 2 of this, my subjects were,

715
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,320
were still alive when I wrote
about them.

716
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,600
Elizabeth Taylor and Barbra
Streisand, probably probably the

717
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,760
reason they weren't my choices.
Those were choices for me.

718
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,120
Elizabeth Taylor was very ill at
the time and you know, she,

719
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,560
everyone thought she was going
to be gone by the time the book

720
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:20,400
came out.
She wasn't.

721
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:26,520
She hung on.
And the, you know, I did talk to

722
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,640
her people who said, you know,
she's not well enough to talk to

723
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,160
you.
You can talk to her kids, but

724
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,240
I'm not sure they'll go on
record, you know, because every,

725
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,960
you know, nobody want to say
anything because she was at the

726
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,360
end of her life.
So ultimately it didn't really

727
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,760
affect the book too much, you
know, but I did have to take

728
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,520
that into consideration with
Streisand.

729
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:55,480
I knew that, you know, she's
she's got some control about

730
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,480
her, her life.
And, you know, God bless her for

731
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,080
it.
I mean, you know, she's not

732
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,200
going to just allow anyone in.
And so I decided early on, I

733
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,200
told her to my editor, I said,
this is not a full life

734
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,600
biography of Streisand.
This is a this is a biography of

735
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,560
Streisand up until the point she
first becomes famous, which is

736
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,440
in funny girl on stage.
So basically my book ends in

737
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:23,680
1964.
She's, I think she's 22 years

738
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,600
old.
So I just do that first piece.

739
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:31,040
And, and when I talked to her,
her people, they were kind of

740
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,840
like, oh, OK, that sounds fine.
And, you know, even after I

741
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,920
finished the book and her
manager sent me a note and said,

742
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,920
oh, I'm so glad you found some
of those early recording

743
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,400
sessions and, and performances
she gave.

744
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,600
We had, we didn't have those on
our list.

745
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:53,080
So I I'd like to think that when
she wrote her memoir, she used

746
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,320
some of that.
But yeah, but so that was my

747
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:57,560
thing.
You know, she's still alive.

748
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,960
She's still very vital.
She's still very involved.

749
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:03,160
So I'm not going to, I'm only
going to go up to that period

750
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,280
when she becomes Barbra
Streisand.

751
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,520
In fact, that's what the the
book is called becoming, you

752
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:09,400
know.
Hello, gorgeous.

753
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,400
Becoming Barbra Streisand.
So before that, she was just

754
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,120
Barbara with two, as you know,
in.

755
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,160
Yeah, I was from Brooklyn.
She was just this kid and, and,

756
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:25,760
and that allowed me to really
get into her, her humanity.

757
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,200
You know, you really sympathize
with this young girl who comes

758
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,000
to Manhattan wanting to become
this big, big star.

759
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,040
She's not conventionally
attractive.

760
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,600
Her mother's always put her down
or she does it, you know, she

761
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,000
makes it and it's pretty
amazing.

762
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,960
Yeah, yeah, that's a common
theme.

763
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,920
You see a lot of that.
You see a lot of.

764
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,760
And again, I guess, you know,
you almost have that like on a

765
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,920
cultural level, like, you know,
we started with music.

766
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,960
And you also have this on a
personal level that people that

767
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,360
kind of go through this, these
challenges and often, you know,

768
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,800
torments at the hands of their
own parents, you know, would,

769
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,480
you know, explode into something
else.

770
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:06,400
And, and this greatness is, is
beautiful, but it's so hard.

771
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,520
It's so devastating and
heartbreaking to see where it

772
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,840
has to come from, to see the
place that, you know, like I

773
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,040
complained that my writing has
been awful since I got married,

774
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,160
you know, because, you know, and
maybe in 10 years from now, I'll

775
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,080
be a little bit better.
But, you know, like while you're

776
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,320
writing in my early 20s or, you
know, mid 20s when I had no idea

777
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,520
what I was going to do with my
life and where I was going.

778
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,560
And every day I felt I was lost
was a lot better than being a

779
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,080
family man with two kids sitting
in my house and working on a

780
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,120
podcast.
You know it's.

781
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,000
Yeah, it's true.
I mean, great art comes from

782
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:40,840
struggle.
And yeah, and, and, and I think

783
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,520
that's been the case with with
all of my subjects.

784
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:49,720
It's, you know, understanding
the the factors that influence

785
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:53,760
them at a very young age, you
know, helps define their

786
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,840
personality going forward.
You know, that's, that was true

787
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,880
for Katherine Hepburn, It was
true for Humphrey Bogart, Lauren

788
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:02,400
Bacall, I mean all of these
Marlon Brando.

789
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:08,920
So, you know, those were those
early experiences shaped who

790
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,920
they're going to become and then
consequently their work.

791
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,080
Definitely, definitely.
I want to ask you about Marlon

792
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,640
Brando for sure and loose Marlon
Brando loosely.

793
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,680
But I think a bigger question
that you can kind of take your

794
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,560
you could navigate this space
however you feel like is I'm

795
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,840
trying to teach my students how
to appreciate movies that are

796
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,080
not in the last made in the last
five years, you know, and one of

797
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,120
the things that helps is to
really explain the humanity

798
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,520
either behind the characters or
the stories or the actors.

799
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,560
And a lot of times you don't
even understand what makes

800
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,000
someone you know.
So like, you know, you hear the

801
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,440
name Marlon Brando don't really
IA lot of kids, unfortunately

802
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,760
have a very short generational
memory and no one even knows who

803
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:55,840
he is.
So you want to tell me a little

804
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,680
about his influence and who he
was and what about him made him,

805
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,840
you know, so greater than life
and just like this permanent

806
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,560
mark of Hollywood?
Yeah.

807
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,560
I mean, he's, I mean, he was a
transformational figure for

808
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,840
Hollywood.
And I think part of that was

809
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,480
because he had no real desire to
be a star.

810
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,960
I mean, most of these people
that I've written about, whether

811
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,560
it be Hepburn or Streisand, they
wanted to be stars, you know,

812
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,320
and they were going out there to
get it.

813
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,800
And whereas Brando really had no
interest.

814
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:32,320
He he was, he came to New York
because his sister was was

815
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:37,000
acting in New York and needed to
get away from an abusive home,

816
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,760
home life.
And so he comes to New York and

817
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:46,120
kind of as a Amalaric, he takes
these acting lessons and his his

818
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,440
teacher was one of the great
acting teachers of all time,

819
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,840
Stella Adler.
And she just but Oh my God, this

820
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,440
guy, he can do anything, you
know, and and he's what's so

821
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:56,920
natural about it.
He never had an acting.

822
00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:00,040
He'd never had had an acting
lesson before that and certainly

823
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,640
had no desire to be an actor,
but he was just so good.

824
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:07,160
And so she really begins pushing
him or not, I don't say pushing

825
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:11,880
him, encouraging him to to
pursue acting as a career.

826
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,400
And so he's kind of like, yeah,
this could be, this could be

827
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,800
fun.
And and he he really gets into

828
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:22,320
the work.
He's, he's, he was nurtured by a

829
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,400
very liberal, progressive Jewish
community.

830
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:31,080
And you know, he was, he was
actually in the first play, play

831
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,400
of flags Born, which was about
the creation of Israel and he

832
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,680
was passionate about that.
And, and so he, he, he kind of

833
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:46,440
correlated acting and performing
with the betterment of society,

834
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,320
right.
So one of Stella Adler's lessons

835
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:54,160
was an actor uplifts.
An actor is there to inspire

836
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,440
people, not to bring them down.
And, you know, an actor works

837
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,960
for justice.
So in our acting, we are, we are

838
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:03,720
attempting to bring justice to
the world.

839
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:08,200
So that is that's Marlon
Brando's approach to acting and

840
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:13,960
why he's he pursues this.
And his early work is like that.

841
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,200
He works with Elliott Kazan and
he works with Tennessee Williams

842
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,040
in A Streetcar Named Desire.
And he feels like, OK, I'm doing

843
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:21,680
something now that's
contributing.

844
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:27,080
It's making a statement and, and
then but he quickly realizes,

845
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,880
though, that Hollywood doesn't
care about any of that.

846
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:30,960
Hollywood simply cares about
making some money.

847
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,600
And so they they're, you know,
they ask him to go, you know,

848
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:37,680
press junkets with and talk to,
you know, gossip columnist and

849
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,440
all of that.
And he he very quickly begins to

850
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,720
back away from all of that.
Like this is not what I thought

851
00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:47,240
acting was supposed to be.
But meanwhile, he's up on the

852
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:50,400
screen doing things that have
never been done before.

853
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,760
He brings such a naturalness to
acting.

854
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,480
He's, he wasn't really trained
in the studio system.

855
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:01,120
So he's, he's bringing a whole
different perspective of acting

856
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,600
and, and what's real and what's
truth to the screen.

857
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,720
And he's, he's amazed.
I mean, you, you, you watch any

858
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:10,560
of those early films and he you
can see why he just blew people

859
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,080
away because he's so real, so
honest.

860
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:19,560
And and yet eventually, as he
keeps going on, he becomes much,

861
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,880
much more disillusioned with
Hollywood and the machine and,

862
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,360
and at certain point actually
thinks I'm I'm done.

863
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,800
I don't really want to do this.
He becomes friends with James

864
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,640
Baldwin, the writer and says,
you know, I wish I was more like

865
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,640
you, that I was actually, you
know, writing about things and

866
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:35,840
and, you know, working on
things.

867
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,400
He becomes involved in the anti
segregation movement, the

868
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:46,320
desegregation movement and, you
know, other civil rights issues

869
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,480
because that was really
important to the community that

870
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,680
had nurtured him.
And eventually it gets a point

871
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,000
like, I don't want to do this
anymore.

872
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,280
And but people keep throwing all
this money at him.

873
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,400
Like you've got to stay here.
We need you.

874
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,200
You're the greatest.
And so he gets a point by the

875
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,560
end of his career, like, OK,
I'll make these this movie

876
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,560
because they're going to pay me
a lot of money and I'm going to

877
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,400
use it to fight against capital
punishment or I'm going to use

878
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:08,960
it.
He was an early

879
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,120
environmentalist.
He he was one of the first

880
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,560
people to talk about climate
change in the 1990s.

881
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:18,360
So he was using that money for
good things, you know, you know,

882
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,400
certainly on Indigenous rights,
he was, he was very vocal about

883
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,920
Native Americans and, and the,
the experience they've they've

884
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:31,080
been given by this country.
You know, really in writing

885
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,920
about him, I realized that I
have to tell this story.

886
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,240
Not only the great actor,
because he really was and he

887
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:39,680
influenced a lot of the actors
who came along later, but he was

888
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,320
also somebody who just
identified the the bullshit and

889
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,960
say, like, Oh, acting is the
greatest profession in the

890
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:46,760
world.
And we are.

891
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:50,720
So, you know, if we're not, if
as actors we're not serving

892
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,560
others, then there's no point in
what we're doing.

893
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,200
You know, it's not, it's not
about narcissism.

894
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:02,280
And, and unfortunately, his.
Yeah, it's enough.

895
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:03,960
Right?
Yeah.

896
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,000
And his reputation later became
that he was narcissistic because

897
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,080
he didn't want to do things.
I didn't want to do that.

898
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:13,040
But it's really about him saying
that's that's not genuine to me.

899
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,360
That is, that's, that's about
making money.

900
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:16,960
And that's not what I should be
doing here.

901
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,280
So, you know, he's a he's a, he
is a transition transformational

902
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,720
figure in Hollywood.
But I think in more the ways

903
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:28,240
than people, you know,
automatically assume, you know,

904
00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:31,640
it was also about saying, you
know, all of this.

905
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,200
You know, he hated award shows.
He says it's all these rich

906
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,840
white guys clap themselves on
the shoulder.

907
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,880
Yeah, yeah, you did great job,
did a great job.

908
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,040
And he was like, I, I he's just
not into it.

909
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,000
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
I didn't know that about him

910
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:46,480
actually.
That that's really that's great.

911
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,280
I have to, I have to check it
out.

912
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,440
I, I got to learn more about
him.

913
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,040
I think one of the, one of the
ideas that you mentioned,

914
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,400
actually there's two things.
Number one was that I was

915
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,280
actually talking to someone
about this other day.

916
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,160
I was on another show and we're
talking about and he, you know,

917
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,440
he's, you know, he noticed
obviously that I'm wearing a

918
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,960
yarmulke and then an Orthodox
Jewish and he asked me off

919
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:09,400
camera.
Actually, we're talking a little

920
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:10,520
bit about he's like, you know,
I'm Jewish.

921
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,200
I grew up in this conservative
Jewish world.

922
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,960
And I just want to know, you
know, how you balance it because

923
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,640
you seem like you like you seems
like you, you know, you're

924
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,840
Orthodox, but you seem like a
pretty integrated guy into the

925
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,200
rest of the world.
And he said, you know, I

926
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,480
personally have a hard time
because there's so many, you

927
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,600
know, examples of embarrassing
behavior around the world, you

928
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,640
know, around the world, the
society.

929
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,240
And I said, listen, I said
you're completely correct.

930
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,840
I said, you know, if I were to
judge the, the religion of

931
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,040
Judaism or any religion really
based on the people as opposed

932
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,080
to the ideals of the values, I
wouldn't do it either, You know,

933
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:46,960
and I was like, but I feel that
way about America, you know,

934
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,360
like I love America with the
values.

935
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,680
You know, I don't love America
because of the people that run

936
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:52,440
the show.
I like that.

937
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,760
I love America because of what
America represents and what the

938
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,120
people that are living here
strive to accomplish.

939
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:01,200
And, and that seems like a
really, and that seems like

940
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,400
Brando really, really lived that
too.

941
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:04,680
And.
Absolutely.

942
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,680
Yeah, and, and I was going to
ask if your, your opinion on the

943
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,400
matter.
Of course, being forced to, I

944
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,600
have a very low tolerance, for
example, for for doing things

945
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,120
that I can't stand.
And that tends to get us into

946
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,080
self sabotaging habits.
And it's a behaviors that

947
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,800
consciously, subconsciously tend
to harm ourselves almost as like

948
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,280
a rejection of, you know, what
it is we're participating in,

949
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:32,200
you know, and we know that and
we know that Brandon wasn't a

950
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,360
particularly healthy human being
towards the end of his life by

951
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,800
any stretch of the imagination.
You want to dive a little bit

952
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:38,840
into that.
Yeah.

953
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:47,240
I mean, you know, he's he was,
he was emotionally scarred by

954
00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:52,200
his abusive father and then, you
know, a neglectful alcoholic

955
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,080
mother.
And so that that goes with him

956
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,880
for the rest of his life.
He was never able to have a

957
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,160
successful long term
relationship.

958
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:07,920
He went through a couple of
different wives and there was

959
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,280
never he, he was never
physically abusive.

960
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:17,760
There are no cases of him ever,
you know, you know, harassing

961
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,360
sexually any of his costars.
He was always very good about

962
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,400
that.
But he could be emotionally so

963
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,760
distant that his wives
eventually couldn't take it

964
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,240
anymore.
And also some of his long term

965
00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:31,160
girlfriends like Rita Moreno,
who's who's talked a lot about

966
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,160
that.
And he was not a great father

967
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,800
because he had never had, he
didn't have any of that

968
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:38,760
modeling.
He had a horrible father.

969
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,040
And so he he just said, I'm
going to do, I'm going to, I'm

970
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,160
just going to make sure I don't
do anything my father did.

971
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,800
So he never drank.
You know, Marlon Brando never

972
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,320
drank because he saw what
alcohol did to both his parents.

973
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,040
But he thought by doing that,
that was enough.

974
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,840
But it wasn't because he'd also
never learned how to show his

975
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,560
children love.
And and so he was always very

976
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:07,520
distant and as as life went on,
you know, both his sisters were

977
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:14,560
Alcoholics and Marlon didn't
drink, but he ate and he became

978
00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:16,360
that was a food was his
addiction.

979
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,080
And so he ballooned hugely and,
you know, had all sorts of

980
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,480
coronary issues and high blood
pressure and which is eventually

981
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:25,400
what part of what what, what
killed him.

982
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,320
So, yeah.
So it goes back to what we're

983
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:33,240
talking about his idea, you
know, the early scars that were

984
00:54:33,240 --> 00:54:35,080
left in a childhood shape who we
are.

985
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:40,680
And so even though he had all of
these moral ideas and idealistic

986
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:46,560
goals in life, he wasn't able to
translate them personally, which

987
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:51,400
is really sad because he he had
a whole slew of children by

988
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,840
wives and girlfriends.
And, you know, so we had a whole

989
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,480
bunch of kids, none of whom was
ever really close to him.

990
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,000
Yeah, yeah.
What's I I remember there was a

991
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,720
movie I saw.
Maybe it was a was it a comedy?

992
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:09,880
Was he in the movie The the
comedy knock off with with shoe?

993
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:11,120
Who's the actor?
Ferris Wheeler.

994
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:13,640
Yeah.
Broderick, Yes.

995
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:14,320
Yeah.
Depression.

996
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:16,320
And that was one of the that
movie.

997
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,400
He was enormous in that movie,
right?

998
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,920
Probably enormous.
I mean, he's, yeah.

999
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,440
I mean, in some of his later
movies, he's enormous.

1000
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:29,520
And in that movie he's pretty
good because he actually liked

1001
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,080
script.
But some some of his later

1002
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:35,240
movies, he's just phoning it in,
you know.

1003
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,400
So because he's just like, hey,
yeah, I'm going to take the

1004
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,600
money so that I can go and
create an aquaculture farm in

1005
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,600
Tahiti, you know, where, you
know, I want to, I want to fund

1006
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,480
this school of Native Americans
or something like that.

1007
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,960
You know, it's like he was
never, he never bought himself

1008
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,280
things.
He wasn't like, he was like.

1009
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:54,520
That's really beautiful.
I didn't know that about him.

1010
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:55,280
That's awesome.
Yeah.

1011
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,240
So let's now let's get to Black
Dahlia a little bit after.

1012
00:55:58,240 --> 00:55:59,360
It's an hour.
Yeah.

1013
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,200
That was related.
Let's talk later.

1014
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,280
Yeah, so I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm
really glad you, you know, we

1015
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,360
talked about it because it's
coming out soon.

1016
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,920
I'd like, like Tinseltown is a
true Crime Story.

1017
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,240
So Elizabeth Short was murdered
in 1947 in Hollywood.

1018
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,840
She was not an actress.
She just was there because she

1019
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,160
wants to see what it was like to
live out there for a while.

1020
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:32,560
And her death, because it was
very gruesome and very sadistic.

1021
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:38,040
It it kind of well, she was her
body was found in a in a in a

1022
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,040
vacant lot and it her body had
been cut in half.

1023
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:46,240
She had been drained of all
blood and she was given a

1024
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:47,960
Glasgow smile.
So, you know, like a Joker

1025
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:49,000
smile.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1026
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:51,360
And all sorts of mutilations.
Yeah.

1027
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:57,360
So, so yeah.
So, so consequently, it became

1028
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:03,560
this sensational crime that the
media just jumped all over.

1029
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,080
And, you know, the newspapers in
Los Angeles, there were five of

1030
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,280
them at the time, all competing
against each other.

1031
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:14,200
And they, you know, one of the
editors later said we sold, sold

1032
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,360
more papers about the Black
Dahlia than we did about Pearl

1033
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,120
Harbor.
So, I mean, it was, you know,

1034
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,720
and, and so it was the press
that gave her that nickname, the

1035
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:24,760
Black Dahlia.
She never, she never wore black

1036
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,360
clothes.
It was just the movie.

1037
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:28,880
The blue Dahlia had just come
out and she had black hair.

1038
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,440
So somehow she becomes the Black
Dahlia.

1039
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,600
I go into that in the book about
how that could have come about.

1040
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,720
But over the years, she's been,
you know, she's been cast as a

1041
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,680
sex worker or, you know, an
aspiring actress who was trying

1042
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,400
to get a part in the movie or,
or she was like working with

1043
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,520
gangsters, you know.
And the thing that that struck

1044
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,400
me early on in this was, you
know, first I want to, I want to

1045
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,760
tell this story and again, in a
bigger way, I want to look at

1046
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:59,560
the what's going on socially.
You know what, you know, this

1047
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,640
was after World War 2, right
after World War 2, where, you

1048
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,840
know, demographic ships, ships
were happening and, and all of

1049
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,880
this.
And so I wanted to set her story

1050
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,080
within those that social
context, but I also realized

1051
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:18,560
that I needed to try to rescue
her because, you know, she was

1052
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:20,640
none of those things that I just
described.

1053
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:25,960
You know, she was just a young
woman who decided to drop out of

1054
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:30,160
school, out of high school with
her mother's permission and go

1055
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:33,960
explore the world.
And, you know, people say, well,

1056
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:35,880
if she had stayed at home, she
never would have been murdered.

1057
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:40,040
Well, yeah, sure.
You know, and and you know, or,

1058
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:44,360
or, you know, she must have
been, you know, immoral or, or,

1059
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:49,120
or sinister in some way.
But they don't say that about

1060
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:52,360
young men who kind of say I'm
going to go explore the world.

1061
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,760
You know, they make movies and
write novels about guys like

1062
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,040
that Huckleberry Finn, you know,
it's or Tom Sawyer, you know,

1063
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,600
who go off.
And I'm going to go see the

1064
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:03,440
world.
I'm going to live by my wits.

1065
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:07,680
And, you know, if I have to con
somebody to get a little, little

1066
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:09,760
money, I'll do that.
And and you're you're kind of

1067
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,200
seen as these all American.
Romanticized.

1068
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:15,840
Yeah, exactly.
Very romanticized.

1069
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,160
And and yet they didn't do that
for Elizabeth Short because she

1070
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,920
was a woman.
And so she was, by implication,

1071
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,600
responsible for her own death.
That was, that was been the,

1072
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,800
the, the, the, the unstated
message in all of the previous

1073
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:31,920
books about her movies that have
been made about her.

1074
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,200
And I decided I want to tell a
different story that kind of

1075
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,240
humanizes her, brings her back
as to who she was.

1076
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:41,240
You know, the only person
responsible for her death was

1077
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,040
the person who did it.
And, and I, you know, and again,

1078
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,560
I have a theory or a couple of
theories on who may have done

1079
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:48,880
it.
But again, like Tinseltown,

1080
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:50,640
that's not the point of the
book.

1081
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,920
The point of the book is to
recreate that period of time and

1082
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:57,480
set her murder within that.
Yeah, that's really cool.

1083
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,560
It's really, it's a really fun
and and and and ambitious idea.

1084
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:02,400
How did you become familiar with
the case to begin with?

1085
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,080
Because I never heard of it.
Yeah, a lot of people, you know,

1086
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:07,800
it's funny, you know, I we, you
know, people of my generation,

1087
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,600
we grew up with it because our
parents had been around for it

1088
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:12,880
and it was like a big thing in
their lives, right.

1089
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,960
But yeah, a lot of younger
people haven't heard about it

1090
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,360
because it's it'll be almost,
it's almost 80 years since she

1091
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:24,480
was killed.
And but, you know, in in Bride,

1092
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:27,840
De Palma made a movie about it
in nineteen, 2006, I think.

1093
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:31,720
So it was still kind of, it was
still kind of current then.

1094
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:37,480
Yeah, I so I'd heard about her
for for years, but like most

1095
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,720
people, I had heard those myths
and kind of absorbed them.

1096
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:45,320
So when my editor said, you
know, what's another true crime

1097
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,000
that you could do, Well, let's
see if we can repeat the success

1098
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,080
of Tinseltown.
And I was like, well, I don't

1099
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:51,520
know.
I mean, and I said, well, of

1100
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:53,920
course the Black Dahlia has been
done a million times.

1101
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:55,840
He said, yeah, but never, never
write.

1102
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,600
And I'm like, huh?
And so I go into it thinking,

1103
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:04,280
I'm going to find out about this
young woman who was like some

1104
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:08,760
gangster's girlfriend or, you
know, was this high class call

1105
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,720
girl or something like that and
wasn't like that at all.

1106
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:12,680
She was just there with some
friends.

1107
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:14,520
You know what?
Hey, let's see Hollywood this

1108
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,400
time, you know?
And you know, so that was,

1109
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:19,120
that's what pulled me in.
Yeah.

1110
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:20,880
And what was the, what was the
research like there?

1111
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,040
Was there a ton of archives and
records and stuff?

1112
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:25,360
And it is easy enough to kind of
string it all together.

1113
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,840
Like, how come it hasn't been?
Was it not done well until now,

1114
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:29,960
you think?
Right.

1115
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:34,280
Because of the enormous amount
of cultural stigma that was

1116
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:36,520
associated with her, you think?
Yeah, I think so.

1117
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:37,600
I mean, I think that's part of
it.

1118
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:40,680
I think it's also because
previously everybody wrote about

1119
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:44,280
it, wanted to say I saw the
Black Dahlia case.

1120
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,280
Yeah, Yeah.
Even though we don't have access

1121
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:50,240
to the information and the
evidence that the original

1122
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,840
detectives had that that
evidence is still locked up in

1123
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:55,680
the opposite of the LAPD.
Yep.

1124
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:57,640
Have.
You tried buoying it?

1125
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,000
Or have you ever done for this?
Oh yeah, Oh yeah.

1126
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,760
But because it's still
considered an open case, they

1127
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,480
don't release those records if
it's still considered open way

1128
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,640
after 80 years after 80.
Years.

1129
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:11,640
That's a.
That's a problem, man.

1130
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,640
But that's.
Way to to break trust.

1131
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:16,920
Seriously.
Break trust is by saying

1132
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,480
everyone's dead associated with
this, but we're still not going

1133
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:20,960
to tell you what happened.
Right.

1134
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:24,760
Yeah, I mean, her her mother
lived to be 96 years old and

1135
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,280
died without ever seeing the
information they had.

1136
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:30,040
So.
But one good thing was I mean,

1137
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,760
that's what allowed me to write
the book was the the District

1138
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:39,720
Attorney of Los Angeles of Los
Angeles when the when there was

1139
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:44,520
a big blow up at the LAPD and
there was, you know, some

1140
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,880
corruption going on all that the
DEA stepped in and took over the

1141
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:51,320
case.
And I asked for that, you know,

1142
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,400
I FOIA or and they sent
everything to me.

1143
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:56,160
So I have all of the district
attorneys.

1144
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:59,040
So they're they're they're
probably available.

1145
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,560
Anybody wants them can change,
can just go get them so that I

1146
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:05,920
was able to build the case, but
because that have really allowed

1147
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,600
me to get in to this this case
and figure it all out.

1148
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:11,600
And there's literally thousands
of names that I had to cross

1149
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,960
reference and all of that.
The FBI files were also released

1150
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,280
to me.
They're not as detailed, but you

1151
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:21,880
know, they're helpful.
The but because there's all of

1152
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,520
these other records that I don't
have that nobody has and they're

1153
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:30,840
within the LAPD.
I could never it would be

1154
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,480
hubristic for me to say, oh,
I've solved the case, even

1155
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,400
though the original who were
pretty damn good, they were

1156
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:40,840
unable to do it and I don't even
have the evidence that they had.

1157
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:46,760
So instead, I I I put together
based on what I've seen, there

1158
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:50,640
are two possible solutions to,
you know, to this case of who

1159
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:53,000
The Who the killer may have
been, but which will be more

1160
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:55,120
importantly.
Yeah, it is.

1161
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:58,120
I come up with two ideas that,
you know, give them what we have

1162
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:01,640
right now to me are the only two
possible solutions.

1163
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:05,680
But but more, more of it.
I kind of want to see what what

1164
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:09,720
it was like for what the society
was like for women in this

1165
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,520
period of time.
You know, during the war, during

1166
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,040
World War 2, they were forced
into the workforce.

1167
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:17,160
They had to go in and fill the
factories and the opposite.

1168
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,640
Yeah.
Then the men come home, they're

1169
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,560
told, go back home and start
cooking dinner and having babies

1170
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:25,160
again.
And you know what, a lot of when

1171
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:27,640
we're like, no, we kind of like
being on our own.

1172
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:29,080
So we're going to stick around
and do that.

1173
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:31,040
And that was a little bit short.
She's like, Nah, I don't want to

1174
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:33,080
get married right now.
I want to go see the world.

1175
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,480
So it was it was reestablishing
that part of her that was really

1176
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,320
important to me.
Do you think that she was

1177
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:40,680
influenced by culture at that
point?

1178
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:44,160
I mean, there was a great book I
read called, I was reading

1179
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:47,520
called Wise Gals I have over
here by Natalia Halt.

1180
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:51,160
And, and she wrote, and she
wrote specifically about this

1181
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:55,880
topic of basically how the how,
how women during World War 2 set

1182
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:59,200
up the structures and the bones
for what would be the CIA slash.

1183
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:00,920
You know, it was previously the
OSS.

1184
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:05,040
And and again, how you know, 1
morning ever wakes up and all

1185
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:06,920
the men are in war.
The next morning ever wakes up

1186
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:09,360
and they're all home and then
everything and then have like,

1187
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:11,240
like it's all wonderful.
But now what?

1188
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:16,040
It's the cultural repercussions
to to having such dramatic

1189
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:18,000
change up so quickly.
So was she, you think that she

1190
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,920
was influenced by, was there a
lot of cultural influence at

1191
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:24,480
that time that was expressing,
you know, female individuality

1192
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:27,320
and freedom and stuff like that?
Yeah, I mean, the the people

1193
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:31,160
that she would connect with in
her travels, the women she would

1194
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:34,360
connect with were men who were
like her, who kind of like, you

1195
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:37,120
know what, we can do this, you
know, and you don't have to rely

1196
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:39,840
on a man for that.
And even though Elizabeth was

1197
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:42,440
very good at getting a man to
buy her, you know, dinner, you

1198
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,600
know, she'd be sitting at the
counter and then she'd make eyes

1199
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:45,640
and the guy would say, how you
doing?

1200
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:47,280
So, well, I'm a little hungry
and I can't afford it.

1201
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:50,560
Oh, I'll buy you a dinner.
So, you know, but at the same

1202
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:54,640
time, she, you know, she could
have gone home in any time, gone

1203
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:56,480
back to her mother's shit
because her mother was very

1204
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:58,720
sweet and would have accept her
to come home, but she didn't

1205
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:00,360
want to.
She just keep kept wanting to

1206
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:02,080
see the world.
And I think that was because she

1207
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:04,520
was with other women who were
doing the same thing.

1208
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:09,000
She would have, she would have
definitely have seen women

1209
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:11,280
working in the war effort.
Her sister was actually in the

1210
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:14,520
war in the the the waves, I
think.

1211
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:18,320
And, you know, so she would have
seen women part, you know,

1212
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:22,400
participating in the war effort.
And I think she would also seem

1213
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,560
like, OK, now they're all
expected to get married.

1214
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,240
I don't want to get married.
So yeah, I think she would have

1215
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,200
been very aware of the cultural
changes.

1216
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:33,640
Right.
Yeah, that's really interesting.

1217
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:35,360
I was reading, I was reading a
book.

1218
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:38,160
I couldn't even make my way
through it, unfortunately called

1219
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:43,600
Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon.
And it's about just a whole slew

1220
01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:48,840
of unsolved deaths that happened
around this time around this

1221
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:52,480
time period, you know, post
World War 2 leading into the 60s

1222
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:56,280
and 70s.
And there there didn't there was

1223
01:06:56,280 --> 01:07:00,600
not a day or two that would go
by without some kind of bizarre

1224
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:02,360
death.
And while, and what I actually

1225
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:04,320
liked about what I love about
the way that you're presenting

1226
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:07,960
this information is you're
saying, listen, we know we have

1227
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:09,840
a context that I would like to
elaborate on.

1228
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:12,560
I don't know the information.
And part of what was a little

1229
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:15,160
off putting to me about the book
was that the author immediately

1230
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:18,920
leaps to, feels like it leaps to
a lot of conspiracies that when

1231
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,920
you like, if you have the
potential for the simplest

1232
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:24,520
solution to be the case, a lot
of times it could be it, you

1233
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:27,240
know, like Janis Joplin, you
know, overdosing.

1234
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:31,280
Well, like, it wasn't a mystery
that she was an addict and an

1235
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:34,520
alcoholic and severely depressed
and, you know, had and had a

1236
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:38,080
whole slate of, of, of problems,
problems that really needed to

1237
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,760
be, that went into her genius
but also needed to be resolved.

1238
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:43,880
And like, yeah, that seems like
a pretty simple,

1239
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:48,680
straightforward, you know,
answer, but about, you know,

1240
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:51,080
saying, hey, I don't know what's
going on.

1241
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:53,160
I just want to fill in the
context and see what's

1242
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:54,360
happening.
Yeah, yeah.

1243
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:56,800
I have no patience for
conspiracy theories, whether

1244
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:01,080
they're contemporary ones or
really or historical ones.

1245
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:05,520
I think conspiracy.
I mean, you know, yeah, you're

1246
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:06,760
right.
Occam's Razor.

1247
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:10,840
The most, the simplest answer to
a problem or a mystery usually

1248
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:14,080
is the correct one.
And, you know, previous people

1249
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:19,120
who wrote about about this case
would have all these elaborated

1250
01:08:19,319 --> 01:08:22,479
tortured theories about, you
know, it was all conspiracy.

1251
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,840
Well, somebody was paying off
someone else and somebody.

1252
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:29,160
There's no evidence for that,
you know, So, you know, I, I,

1253
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:34,960
you know, I often say that,
that, you know, I often apply

1254
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:37,080
Occam's razor to, to my, in my
book.

1255
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:39,920
I, I actually reference that I,
hey, look, here's the, the

1256
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:43,000
simplest solution.
Sometimes the simplest solution

1257
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:45,840
might not be the solution, but
much more often it is.

1258
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:48,600
So, you know, I think we have to
keep that in mind.

1259
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:53,319
And, and there was still been so
many crazy conspiracy theories.

1260
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:59,720
It's just, it's just there's one
guy who's made a franchise about

1261
01:08:59,960 --> 01:09:03,200
conspiracy theories, believes
his father was the killer.

1262
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:05,920
And you know, but he was also
the Zodiac Killer and he killed

1263
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:07,840
these other people.
And, you know, it's a book after

1264
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:10,479
book about just crazy conspiracy
theories.

1265
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:16,680
And you know it's.
Imaginative.

1266
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:19,840
It's imaginative, but when you
know, I think when it comes to

1267
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:22,439
actually understanding history
or understanding people's

1268
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:25,200
intentions, I think a lot of
times the simplest things are

1269
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:26,640
still the simplest things.
Like you said.

1270
01:09:27,359 --> 01:09:28,960
How long do you think you
typically write a book?

1271
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:32,840
Three to four years.
Three to four years.

1272
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:34,720
Gotcha.
And and what's your structure

1273
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:36,720
for doing it?
Because I, you know, I was a

1274
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,760
creative writing in literature
on major college and I always

1275
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:44,040
have a hard time with the long
form writing and keeping track

1276
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:45,760
of a whole story in my head at
one time.

1277
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:48,880
And I kind of get overwhelmed
with the whole process.

1278
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:50,880
So how do you go around breaking
down, you know, especially over

1279
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:53,920
the course of years?
Do you have like, do you break

1280
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:56,440
it out into phases or into
sections or how do you, how do

1281
01:09:56,440 --> 01:09:58,520
you go about it?
Well, first you do as much

1282
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:02,640
research as you can and you just
have as much data, as much

1283
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,040
facts.
And then in the sometimes that

1284
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:09,400
creates the structure for you
like, oh, OK, this is about, you

1285
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:13,680
know, her wanderlust.
And then this is about her

1286
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:16,000
father.
And, you know, and you're able

1287
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:20,240
to kind of come up with, you
know, a rough outline of how the

1288
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:24,120
story should go.
And usually doing that, I

1289
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:27,320
suddenly get the idea, OK,
that's where the book opens, you

1290
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:30,120
know, And because I love movies
so much, I think very

1291
01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:33,880
cinematically.
So think about a movie like you

1292
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:36,520
always have that powerful
opening scene that just grabs

1293
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:39,040
you and like, OK, I need that
for my book.

1294
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:41,160
So I need to have this powerful
opening scene.

1295
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:44,440
And sometimes then you flashback
or sometimes you jump forward or

1296
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:47,080
whatever, but that's you got to
get that grabbing.

1297
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:50,480
And then and then once I've got
that, I can usually imagine

1298
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:52,960
where it goes to.
So you also need to have an

1299
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:55,560
ending eventually where you're
going to go to because then

1300
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:58,520
everything else you have works
towards that.

1301
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:01,320
You know, you're like, oh, wait,
I'm getting sidetracked.

1302
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:04,600
I'm not, I'm not leading to that
ending and don't want to go that

1303
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:06,200
route because that's going to
take me in a direction I don't

1304
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:07,680
want to go.
I want to head towards that

1305
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:09,920
ending.
So, you know, it's really about

1306
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:15,440
having as many facts and, or if
you're writing creatively or

1307
01:11:15,480 --> 01:11:18,560
like fiction or, you know,
memoir, I would also have this

1308
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:22,280
many ideas and I, you know, on
the paper or on the computer

1309
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:24,960
screen before you actually start
writing because then you can

1310
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,240
start linking them together.
And are you organized about this

1311
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,520
or do you like to have a jumbo
that you kind of sort out?

1312
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:33,920
Yeah, I'm, I'm ridiculously
organized.

1313
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,920
I mean, it's, it's like I
immediately start cross

1314
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:41,320
referencing and, you know, keep
an index and, and you know, I've

1315
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:44,400
got, you know, eventually have 4
huge boxes of material, but I

1316
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,920
know where everything is because
I've created an index for that

1317
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:48,800
material.
Yeah.

1318
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:53,800
And that's it's, it annoys
people sometimes, but but it's

1319
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:57,200
also, I think it's also why I'm
able to do what I do.

1320
01:11:57,840 --> 01:11:59,880
I bet you do.
It's the reason why I haven't

1321
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:04,880
done it, The reason why you
have, you know, what are some,

1322
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:07,640
what are some passion projects
that you would like to that you

1323
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:10,440
would like to accomplish?
You think over the over the

1324
01:12:10,440 --> 01:12:11,480
course of the next couple of
years.

1325
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:15,720
Well, I mean, I've really
enjoyed writing these true crime

1326
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:19,920
stories because it really allows
me to get into a bigger picture,

1327
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:23,320
more, more kind of intimate
experience in people's lives in

1328
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:28,120
some ways and more people.
And I'm also going to get, I'm

1329
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:31,480
also working on a project now
that is much more, I guess it's

1330
01:12:31,480 --> 01:12:34,960
more like a memoir.
And I guess I'm getting to the

1331
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:36,960
point in my life where I can
look back on it, you know,

1332
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:41,480
that's I've had this life and
really interesting about how my

1333
01:12:41,480 --> 01:12:46,040
childhood was so different from
the childhood of my nieces and

1334
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:49,560
nephews.
And like, you know, and so I

1335
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:53,240
kind of want to get that down
because I feel like if you don't

1336
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:56,840
get history down on the paper or
on screen, it's going to

1337
01:12:56,840 --> 01:13:00,760
disappear because every every
young person thinks they're

1338
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:03,760
experiencing life for the first
time and that, you know,

1339
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:06,720
nothing's really happened before
of any interest, you know, and,

1340
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:11,480
and I was like that.
And, you know, kids being born

1341
01:13:11,480 --> 01:13:13,640
today are like that.
They think, you know, oh, brand

1342
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:16,560
new slate, you know, and, but I
it's important so you get this

1343
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:17,840
history down.
I teach history.

1344
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:20,200
So that's a cool awesome.
What kind of history do you

1345
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:22,520
teach?
American history, mostly 20th

1346
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:27,360
century popular culture and but
how popular culture then

1347
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:30,880
intersects with everything else.
So like the women's movement or,

1348
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:35,640
you know, all of that.
So yeah.

1349
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:37,320
So you.
So it's important to me as a

1350
01:13:37,320 --> 01:13:39,800
historian to make sure that
history is down.

1351
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:43,360
So I'm kind of like saying, Oh
yeah, I didn't have this notable

1352
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:45,640
childhood.
It was just pretty normal lower

1353
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:48,920
middle class child, you know,
and but it was still interesting

1354
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:51,680
and they did things differently
then than we do now.

1355
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:54,440
And I kind of like, I want to
put that down so that it kind of

1356
01:13:54,440 --> 01:13:56,240
gets.
What are some things you think

1357
01:13:56,240 --> 01:14:00,280
you'd like to preserve as far as
like childhood or you know the

1358
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:03,880
youth, if you know if the world
that you grew up with that we

1359
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:06,840
don't feel like we have today?
Yeah, I think there was a there

1360
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:17,440
was a greater emphasis put on
community because we were, you

1361
01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:20,720
know, I think there was, you
know, I was going to say it was

1362
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:23,080
maybe because I grew up in a
smaller town, but it but I think

1363
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:25,280
that was true for friends of
mine who grew up in Manhattan,

1364
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:28,000
for example, my age.
I felt the same thing in their

1365
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:30,400
neighborhoods are, you know,
very strong connections.

1366
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:36,160
And, you know, our parents, I
seemed were less helicoptery

1367
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:40,400
parents, you know, so I could be
out until 9:30 at night and a

1368
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:42,320
summer night and come home.
My mother said, where were you?

1369
01:14:42,360 --> 01:14:44,600
Rather than like, I called
everybody looking for you, you

1370
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:48,280
know, and but again, we hadn't
experienced some of the horrors

1371
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:52,840
that parents have been the last
20 years, 30 years.

1372
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:55,960
So and not it's not that those
things weren't happening, but

1373
01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:59,000
they weren't, you know, so
publicized.

1374
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:02,880
They weren't on your Facebook
page, you know, and now parents

1375
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:04,920
are rightfully nervous.
Where's my kid?

1376
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:07,000
Right.
So I'm not criticizing that.

1377
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:12,520
But but but there was a just a
more relaxed tone to to

1378
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:16,080
childhood.
I mean, and also, but it was in

1379
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:23,200
a sense of anticipation that
because you nothing was today,

1380
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:26,080
you know, instant gratification
is just so easy.

1381
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:29,080
You want to look at a scene from
the Wizard of Oz, just go on

1382
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:30,520
YouTube and even look at it
immediately.

1383
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:33,760
When I was a kid, the Wizard of
Oz was on once a year and you

1384
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:38,120
you swap then and then you run a
whole nother year before you saw

1385
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:40,640
it again.
And so that was like that for

1386
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:42,640
anything.
You know, the the Christmas

1387
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:44,480
specials, Charlie Brown, all of
that comes up.

1388
01:15:44,480 --> 01:15:48,800
It came once a year and for.
Me.

1389
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:53,800
Yeah, it's like, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.

1390
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:57,320
And I don't know, I mean, it's
I'm not saying that that was

1391
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:01,080
better than today because I like
I like the fact that, you know,

1392
01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:04,560
when I got interested in movies
as a as a teenager and old

1393
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:07,440
movies, like silent movies.
Well, how else is like going to

1394
01:16:07,440 --> 01:16:12,640
see a silent movie until like
the the theater in Hartford, CT,

1395
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:16,360
where I lived, the suburb of
Hartford, CT, I could drive to

1396
01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:19,640
Hartford and you know, 16 year
old and driving in my car to see

1397
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:21,440
this silent movie because I'm
never going to see.

1398
01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:24,920
And again, now it's all on
YouTube or, you know, wherever

1399
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:28,680
you can, you can, there's
someone on Tubi and Netflix and

1400
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:31,280
all of that.
So, and that's good.

1401
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:33,560
I like being, especially as a
writer that I can just go look

1402
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:36,000
at it, not say, oh, how am I
going to get a copy of this?

1403
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:39,560
But there was also something
about it was more wonder, I

1404
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:42,800
think as as when I was a child,
like, oh, wow, look with this

1405
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:46,200
and look what I found.
And and that's different.

1406
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:47,600
Not especially better, but
different.

1407
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:50,560
Yeah, yeah, I, I think that I
have.

1408
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:52,480
I think that you're totally
right.

1409
01:16:52,480 --> 01:16:57,320
I think there's a couple of #1 I
think that actually probably for

1410
01:16:57,320 --> 01:17:01,520
better, you know, I guess
critical back in the day, you

1411
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:05,120
could call it, you know, But to
have when, when everything was

1412
01:17:05,120 --> 01:17:07,640
kind of a shared embodied
experience, you wanted to see

1413
01:17:07,640 --> 01:17:09,600
The Wizard of Oz, you had to go
to the movie theater.

1414
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:11,920
And you go to the movie theater,
you're watching it with 250

1415
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:15,080
other people.
And when you had that moment and

1416
01:17:15,080 --> 01:17:17,160
you're watching some and you
know, you have a couple of those

1417
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:18,840
kind of moments in modern day
history.

1418
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:21,840
Like I was talking to a couple
of friends this weekend and

1419
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:24,640
we're talking about what it was
like in the movie theater when

1420
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:28,800
in The Avengers movie, you know,
when they when they when The

1421
01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:30,680
Avengers lost at the end of
Infinity War.

1422
01:17:31,240 --> 01:17:33,920
And like, you walk out of the
movie theater and there's 350

1423
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:36,960
people piling out from all these
theaters and everyone's kind of

1424
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:40,080
coming together and it's just
silent because no one knows like

1425
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:42,040
what hit them in the head, you
know?

1426
01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:44,720
And I'm sorry you lost your
audio a little bit.

1427
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,560
I think.
No, hang on.

1428
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:52,600
I'm going to pause it.
And the other thing was that

1429
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:55,480
about about the parenting and
about the freedom.

1430
01:17:56,840 --> 01:18:00,560
I was reading this great book
called Jonathan Hate the Ancient

1431
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:03,320
Generation.
And one of the thing points that

1432
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:06,880
he makes is that the generation
that I guess I was at the tail

1433
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:11,720
end of was that parents looked
at other parents in America like

1434
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:14,240
friends, you know, and like you
go to the supermarket.

1435
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:16,840
If a kid got, if you lost your
kid in the supermarket, another

1436
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:18,760
parent would come up to you and
be like, oh, is this your child?

1437
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:21,000
Or like you go to a kid, Oh, you
lost, where's your mom?

1438
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:25,240
And nowadays we're afraid to do
that, you know, and, and right.

1439
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:27,760
But you know, again, not for
wrong reasons.

1440
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:32,200
Like you say, you know, now it's
parents against the world.

1441
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:35,920
It's not all of us together
raising one kid or our family

1442
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:39,040
and our community doing that.
It's, it's everyone to get it's,

1443
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:41,520
it's me against the world.
And I don't know who's a threat,

1444
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:44,440
I don't know who's in danger.
I don't know if anyone you know.

1445
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:48,720
It's incredibly sad, but I mean,
I'm just doing the math.

1446
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:50,840
You were five when 911 happened,
right?

1447
01:18:51,080 --> 01:18:52,160
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.

1448
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:56,080
I mean, so that generation grew
up constantly.

1449
01:18:56,160 --> 01:18:59,960
My niece was, was, I think she's
your age, actually.

1450
01:18:59,960 --> 01:19:03,560
And she, same thing.
I remember walking with her.

1451
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:07,040
She's, you know, 6 and we're
walking and she's so scared.

1452
01:19:07,040 --> 01:19:09,760
It was a nice little street near
my house.

1453
01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:12,080
And the, the street light went
out and she went, Oh my God.

1454
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:13,080
And I said, what's the matter?
Shit.

1455
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:16,440
It's Osama bin Laden.
And I'm like, I'm like, no, it's

1456
01:19:16,440 --> 01:19:17,520
not hanging.
It's not.

1457
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:19,720
But you know, that it was in
their head, you know.

1458
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:24,400
And yeah.
So, I mean, you grew up thinking

1459
01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:28,000
that, you know, remember those.
Well, you wouldn't remember, but

1460
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:32,280
I mean, but you know, today's an
orange alert day, today's a red

1461
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:35,520
alert day today.
And and then, you know, and it's

1462
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:38,520
been like that ever since with,
with something else, COVID or

1463
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:41,600
whatever.
So people are always and then,

1464
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:46,840
you know, yeah, it's all, you
know what, how kids going to

1465
01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:50,440
school, you know, you know,
they're afraid they're going to

1466
01:19:50,440 --> 01:19:52,000
get shot.
I mean, it's, it's just.

1467
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:53,880
It's terrible.
Yeah, it's sad.

1468
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:56,040
It's sad.
Yeah, one of the things I'm

1469
01:19:56,040 --> 01:19:58,240
hoping for and I'm really hoping
that this happens and we could

1470
01:19:58,240 --> 01:20:01,200
kind of hopefully leave evolve
with this as a positive note.

1471
01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:06,480
But I think that I think that we
became so comfortable, we forgot

1472
01:20:06,480 --> 01:20:11,040
the spirit of adventure and
youth that like was our country

1473
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:14,960
for so long.
And like the spirit of like, you

1474
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:18,640
know what, a lot of times it's
funny, I, I showed I'm not

1475
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:21,360
really even sure what I think
about this at this point.

1476
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:24,120
But you know, the Age of
Disclosure, which was this

1477
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:27,480
documentary about the Uaps and
what they could potentially be

1478
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:29,560
UFOs.
And you know, I showed them to

1479
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,320
my 9th graders, 10th graders and
12th graders, 12th graders,

1480
01:20:32,440 --> 01:20:35,320
we're totally not prepared to
hear it and just cut it out.

1481
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:40,880
And like, on one hand, I get it.
On the other hand, like, even if

1482
01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:44,360
it's not true, the conversation
is a fun, exciting conversation.

1483
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:46,800
Like where's the nation?
Where's the enthusiasm?

1484
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,480
Where's the even if it doesn't
exist, why don't we explore?

1485
01:20:49,480 --> 01:20:50,960
Why don't we figure out how it
might have happened?

1486
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:53,640
How do we like, like why we're
not looking for more of that?

1487
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:54,680
And.
Why didn't that happen?

1488
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:56,680
You know, why was that?
Yes.

1489
01:20:56,680 --> 01:20:58,480
You know, I just want to
actually talk about that a

1490
01:20:58,480 --> 01:21:00,120
little bit in the Black Dahlia
book.

1491
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:05,880
I mean, that whole, you know,
the atomic bomb had exploded and

1492
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:08,640
Russia was building it.
And so there's this big paranoia

1493
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:11,080
and then suddenly there's this
fear of UFOs.

1494
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:14,400
And so it came from somewhere.
That fear came from somewhere.

1495
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:17,520
And we have, you know, we have
to put that.

1496
01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:21,640
You know, I think it's it's an
interesting moment in history.

1497
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:25,760
And yeah, but it's.
But I do think you're right.

1498
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:32,120
I mean, I think what's important
is to, you know, keep telling

1499
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:37,840
stories that, as Brando said,
that that uplift that actually

1500
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:39,880
something to say.
And they're not just

1501
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:43,880
Kardashians, you know, it's you
know, I know that's an easy joke

1502
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:45,280
to make.
But I mean, you know, that

1503
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:49,320
actually is has some value in
how we see ourselves in our

1504
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:52,720
world and, and helps us
understand our world kind of

1505
01:21:52,720 --> 01:21:56,920
better and inspires the
imagination and curiosity, you

1506
01:21:56,920 --> 01:22:00,360
know, So that's, that's I think
what we have to do as podcasters

1507
01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:03,080
or writers or whatever is to,
you know, have conversations

1508
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:04,840
like this.
And bring the speed of adventure

1509
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:07,440
back to the country.
I think that's really youth and

1510
01:22:07,440 --> 01:22:08,840
adventure is really what we
need.

1511
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:11,960
And I would love that.
Well, this is such a pleasure

1512
01:22:11,960 --> 01:22:14,120
telephone where you can find
your information and when your

1513
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:16,760
book comes out and and this was
really so.

1514
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:21,080
Sure.
I'm I'm at williamjman.com and

1515
01:22:21,440 --> 01:22:25,400
you can pick up my book starting
on January 7th.

1516
01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:31,200
I'm sorry, January 27th, and I
hope you'll and the black

1517
01:22:31,200 --> 01:22:34,440
Dahlia.
Yep, and you've I'm going to be

1518
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:42,880
appearing in in Los Angeles and
Palm Springs, CA in Brooklyn,

1519
01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:46,920
NY, Miami, FL.
And you know when you come down.

1520
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:50,320
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, it's I think it's it's

1521
01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:54,600
early February in in Florida.
Yeah, remember it's off off on

1522
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:57,120
top of my head and then also
Boston, MA.

1523
01:22:57,120 --> 01:22:58,880
So those are the ones that are
set up for now.

1524
01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:00,720
Awesome.
Super exciting.

1525
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:03,120
Well, this is such a pleasure.
It's so nice getting to meet

1526
01:23:03,120 --> 01:23:04,560
you.
Hopefully I'll meet in person

1527
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:06,200
when you're down here.
I'll buy you a coffee or a beer

1528
01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:10,040
if you drink beer and we'll,
we'll have a good time I'm sure.

1529
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:13,600
But this is such a I'll post the
the links to your stuff on the

1530
01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:15,800
caption.
Williams, thank you so much for

1531
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:17,840
the time it's.
Such a great thanks for the

1532
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:18,800
conversation.
Appreciate it.

1533
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:19,600
Of course.
Take care.

1534
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:20,120
Bye, bye now.