Music Series 3: Scott B Bomar / Music Historian / Southern Rock & Soul / Black Influence on Music

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Welcome to another episode.
Come together

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and we're live another episode.
Scott, welcome.

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I'm so happy to have you here.
Yeah, thanks.

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Happy to be here.
So I, I came across your website

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and your content, all your, all
your awesome work.

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After I was looking for similar
guests to Dennis McNally, who I

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was so happy to hear from the
author of the Grateful Dead, you

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know, the definitive Grateful
Dead biography.

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And you know, I, I, not only do
I love music, I love learning

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about it and diving down rabbit
holes and going into deep dives.

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And I saw the books, not only
just the books that you wrote,

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the amount of books, but also
the diversity of of topics and

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genres that you kind of dive
into.

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I knew I wanted to introduce
myself and see if we can make

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something happen.
So thank you.

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Yeah, for sure.
So you write about everything

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music, and it seems to be are
you, have you always been a

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musician with did you always
have some kind of affinity or

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passion for the storytelling of
the history or how'd that

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happen?
Yeah, I I've always been drawn

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to music.
My father was in the music

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business, and though I've lived
in Los Angeles now for more than

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25 years, I grew up in Nashville
and, you know, also known as

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Music City USA.
And my dad being in the music

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industry obviously exposed me to
a lot of music from the time I

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was young.
And, you know, I think we when

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we're kids, we just kind of get
interested in what our parents

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are interested in because that's
the sort of scope of our world.

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And so I got interested in in
some of the music.

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My dad was a songwriter before
he got into the business side of

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music.
And so I got kind of interested

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in like some country artists
that he was writing for, like

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Loretta Lynn and Conway Twitty.
And I remember even like as a

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six year old, I made a cassette
tape of me talking to Conway

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Twitty, which I mailed to his,
you know, fan club or whatever.

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Like, you know, I was just
interested in that because my my

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dad was, you know, but then as I
got older, I really as I think a

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lot of kids in Nashville, I
gravitated away from country

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music because, you know, it's
sort of like, then you get into

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the phase where you sort of kick
against, you know, whatever your

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parents are into.
But then I started getting into

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like classic rock and stuff and
like Jimi Hendrix and The

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Beatles and The Rolling Stones.
And I start looking through my

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dad's record collection and he's
got all that stuff too.

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So he kind of turned me on to a
lot of like classic rock.

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And, you know, I got into all
kinds of music from from there

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and then kind of came back
around to country as well, you

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know, as an adult.
But basically, I think the seed

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of it is just that my dad kind
of modelled a love for music.

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And when I was a kid, he would
like quiz me when stuff would

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come on the radio, he'd beg,
who's this artist who, you know,

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who wrote this song, who played
bass, you know, on this song.

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So I probably just couldn't help
but but but pursue it because I

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I always not only loved like the
Sound of Music and the way that

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music moves you, but I was also
fascinated by like the trivia.

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And I think a lot of, you know,
the way a lot of maybe fathers

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and sons would trade like sports
statistics.

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My dad and I were trading music
statistics.

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So yeah, I think it's just it
was bound to, it was bound to

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be.
That's super cool.

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I love that.
I love that I have a lot.

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I think I, I was talking to, I
was on someone's show the other

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day and you know, they're asking
me about, you know, as far as

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me, they're asking another
question in terms of my, I, I

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have a three-year old and a six
month old and, and they're

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asking me about, you know, what
if they like XY and Z's

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particular lifestyle that you're
pursuing or not, and how would

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you feel?
And I was like, you know what,

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maybe they'll do it, maybe they
won't.

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But like when you're like
enthusiastic and passionate,

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like your kids, that you can't
fake that to your kids.

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And it's, it's magnetic to them.
It's, you know, it's

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electrifying.
And I mean, that's, that's my,

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my, my dad loves music and he
never had any kind of

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professional, you know,
relationship to it, obviously.

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But he, you know, I grew up.
I, I have, so I have so strongly

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associated, you know, like James
Taylor and Cowell King while

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we're driving, you know, pick me
up from camp or, you know, or

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Billy Joel at the garden, you
know, when I was 5 or 6 years

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old and, and you know, and learn
and learning.

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And then, like you said, playing
trivia in the car with, you

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know, my dad would put on bat
out of hell, you know, while he

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was driving to Manhattan and,
and I'd have to be like, Oh,

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there's meatloaf, right.
And you know, and I have to.

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And I learned from him.
Yeah, it's funny, my I host this

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podcast called Song Craft and my
Co host Paul has two young

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daughters that are like 11:00
and 7:00 or somewhere, somewhere

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in there.
And they're obsessed with like

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Kiss and there you go.
And like everything that he kind

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of grew up on because he is
completely exposed them to that.

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And he's like, on the one hand,
I'm thrilled to see that my kids

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are excited about this music,
but I'm also ruining them

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because they're gonna have
nothing in common with their

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peers.
Yeah, it's actually funny that

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you say that.
I've been because I I, I teach

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high school English part time
and I already have a quote UN

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quote old enough soul, you know,
to, you know, for my own

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contemporaries.
But you know, my students, it's

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funny.
I'm like, I showed them the

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blind side last year and they're
like, I never heard of this

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movie.
Oh, you did it come out.

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I'm like 2008.
They're like we were born 2008.

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I'm like, Oh my God, are you
kidding me?

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You know, but, but I've been,
but I was, you know, so I'm

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trying to expose them to some
Dylan, some Springsteen, some

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some of the Dead, some, you
know, some good music and try to

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pay attention to the lyrics
because I teach English class.

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And I think the biggest pushback
that I have with them is that

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it's not familiar to their ear,
you know, and it's like, and

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once they kind of like get a
little more familiar and once it

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doesn't become such a foreign
sound to them, they notice a lot

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more detail, you know, as, as
they're more exposed to it, you

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know, And so I'm sure that has a
lot to do with it too.

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Yeah, Yeah.
No, I think so.

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And, and I think that, you know,
we've lost this kind of

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monoculture that I grew up in
where there was, you know, 3 to

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5 television channels and that
was it.

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And there was, you know, like a
handful of radio stations and

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everybody kind of experienced
the same pop culture.

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And that has been like
splintered so much to where kids

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they they don't identify, you
know, I think with some of the

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experiences that we had.
But I do believe that the cream

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rises to the top and and music,
you know, when I was a teenager,

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I was listening to, you know,
The Beatles, who broke up long

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before I was born.
And, you know, I I gravitated

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toward music that was from a
prior era in addition to music

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from my own era.
And so, you know, I think on the

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one hand, we can sort of lament
the change that has happened,

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but on the other hand, music is
more accessible than other than

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ever.
So, you know, when you talk

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about Springsteen or Dylan or
whatever, these kids actually

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have a way to go access that
immediately and hopefully

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experience it and discover it.
You know, whereas when I was a

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kid, if somebody said something
was good, I had to go spend

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$15.00 for ACD to find out, you
know, and you know, so I do, I

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do think there's an upside to
like, as long as people are

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exposing them to this stuff or,
or championing it, then they can

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actually go experience it.
And because the cream rises to

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the top, I think the good stuff
will endure.

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So it, I think it's going to be
harder for people to, you know,

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be exposed to things than, than
it used to be.

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But at least when they are,
they've got a treasure trove to

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dig into, you know.
Oh.

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Yeah.
Oh yeah.

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I mean, it's so funny you put it
like that, because I, when I, I,

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I tend, the way that I consume
music is I tend to get very

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invested in an artist and learn,
you know, all their, all their

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songs.
I love listening to, you know,

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albums all the way through and,
you know, they're becoming

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familiar.
And then what'll usually happen

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is they'll cover a song.
I'll see on the credits that

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it's a cover and I'll kind of
check out who that, you know,

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that original song and where
that kind of goes.

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And that, and a, that's been
such a fun way to learn about,

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you know, more music and new
music.

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But B, like you said, like, you
know, I, I'm listening to

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Springsteen, I get to check out,
I could tell you if you showed

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me a set list, I'll tell you
what year that concert was.

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You know, like I, I, I, at this
point, I was able to do these

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deep dives and the same thing
and similar with Dylan probably,

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and similar with a lot of other,
you know, artists that I've,

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that I've really spent a lot of
time on.

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It's, it's really cool to have
this archive.

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I think the, I think that the
dead and Springsteen and Dylan

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and I mean, I don't know who was
really recording so much as much

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as they were, you know, at the
time.

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But that like, that allowed
people to kind of live

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vicariously through the through
the eyes of these real fans and

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real junkies and, you know,
really and really get to

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participate in it.
Yeah, well, good luck listening

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to everything the Grateful Dead
ever put on the rest of your

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life.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And all the subsequent bands and
all the subsequent music, you

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know.
Yeah, definitely.

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What do you, what do you think
about the state of music today?

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What is, what's some music
that's kind of catching your eye

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and drawing your in, drawing
your attention now?

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Man, I got to say, I was
literally having a conversation

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with someone yesterday and I
said if if someone asks me what

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kind of music do you like, I
think the best answer I can give

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is 20th century music.
OK.

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In that, you know, it was the
music of the 60s, seventies,

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80s, nineties.
I mean, I'm a I'm a child of the

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grand Jera, you know?
Sure.

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And so, yeah, I mean, that is
the stuff that really like I

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connected with.
And so, you know, if you ask me

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like who I like, that's current.
Like it tends to be people that

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are rooted in kind of some of
that aesthetic of the past.

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So like Bruno Mars or Nathaniel
Raelif or Lake Street Dive.

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I really like Brandi Carlile a
lot, but these are all artists

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that in some ways are very much
kind of share those same roots

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of, you know, 20th century
music.

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So I'm kind of the worst about
staying up on like, what's the,

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I'm a, I'm a Grammy voter and
I've submitted my votes last

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night and in the category of
best new artist, I literally had

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to go to Spotify and pull up
each of the artists in the

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running and spend some time
listening because I didn't, I

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literally was not familiar with
a single one of them by name.

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So I'm, it's probably fitting
that I'm a music historian.

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I kind of live in the past.
Yeah, yeah.

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You know, I feel, I feel a very
similar way, but I'm, but I've

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been, but it's exciting to see
what new people are doing with

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these older genres, you know?
Yeah.

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And I mean, I, I think that I've
been, I've been right now I'm in

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the middle of a Billy Strings
deep dive, you know, and, and

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I'm really, really fascinated
because it's one of the things

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that I, that I enjoy so much is
that listening to any of his

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given shows is a music class in
and of itself.

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And that, you know, I'm getting
connected to old country or

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Western tunes that I never have,
you know, like a whole world

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I've never been a part of
before.

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So like this.
So, so he's kind of like a segue

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into the past, but he's like
firmly now, which is cool, you

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know, and, and, and it's use of,
of electric in the middle of

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his, of his jams, I think has
been really, really fascinating,

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you know, to, you know, just.
Yeah, comes to, I mean, he's

217
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,880
incredibly talented.
You got guys like Jesse Wells

218
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,760
kind of coming out of.
Yeah.

219
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:51,960
What's his story?
He's so cool.

220
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,680
Yeah, I mean, just like he's
almost like Bob Dylan and in

221
00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:59,360
that it's like the faucet is
just on and songs are just

222
00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,200
flowing out of him and he like
can't turn it off, you know?

223
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,880
Yeah, which I think is super
interesting.

224
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:06,960
So I think he's, you know, he's
interesting.

225
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,440
So yeah, I mean, I'm a grumpy,
you know, grumpy fan of music of

226
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,000
the past.
But at the same time, I see

227
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,520
these people emerging that, you
know, are, are incredibly

228
00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,880
talented.
So, you know, it's, it's

229
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:22,280
encouraging.
It's fun.

230
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:23,920
It's definitely a lot of fun for
me.

231
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,640
Can you you want to tell me a
little bit about so we have a

232
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,040
bunch of different topics I
guess, or sections that we can

233
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,840
go down.
I would love to learn about the

234
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:38,760
southbound and Southern music
because that was really the

235
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,600
southern music was kind of the
intersection I took between like

236
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,600
rock and the jam music.
I guess by introduction through

237
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,960
the Marshall Tucker band or The
Allman Brothers and then Derek

238
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,000
Trucks and, you know, and
Tedeschi Trucks.

239
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,840
And you could tell that like
there's a, you know, when you

240
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,640
hear those different genres,
there's a style and a history

241
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,720
and like a sound and a, and a,
and a whole feel.

242
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,080
Can you you want to elaborate on
the some of the history maybe?

243
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,200
Yeah, sure.
Well, it's kind of funny.

244
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,880
So Southbound, which the, the,
the full title is Southbound and

245
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:14,360
Illustrated History of Southern
Rock.

246
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,520
That was the first book that I
wrote.

247
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,080
And what's interesting about
that is that I had got, I had

248
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:28,320
sort of fallen into writing some
liner notes or album notes,

249
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,360
which is a lost, lost art, but
still exists, believe it or not,

250
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:39,240
for some historical reissues of
some various artists.

251
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,280
And I hadn't actually written a
full length book, but I knew I

252
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,600
had a book in me and it was not
Southern rock.

253
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,760
But I have been kind of working
on this book that, by the way,

254
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:53,800
I'm still writing.
OK.

255
00:14:54,920 --> 00:15:00,760
I've written seven books since,
but but I do have a deal for it

256
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,320
now, so I have a deadline.
So it's actually going to that's

257
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:04,280
a.
Coaching right if.

258
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,560
It helps, yeah.
But I got this call out of the

259
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:14,920
blue from an editor in New York.
And he says, hey, we want to

260
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,400
publish a book about the history
of Southern rock, And we hear

261
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:24,360
that you're the guy to do it.
And in my mind, I thought, what?

262
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,960
Why?
But I had enough sense in the

263
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,680
moment to go, OK, tell me more,
you know?

264
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,840
And so he says, yeah, you know,
we want to write this book.

265
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,440
It's like an overview of the
history of Southern rock.

266
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:39,640
It's going to have a lot of
photos.

267
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,200
We want a lot of deep text.
And, you know, and I'm like, OK,

268
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:43,640
interesting.
I'm interested, you know?

269
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,440
So then I get off the phone, and
my friend Randy Poe calls me.

270
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:54,240
And Randy had written a
biography of Dwayne Allman

271
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,880
amongst, you know, multiple
other books, and it was

272
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,240
published by the same publisher.
And so Randy calls me.

273
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,720
He goes, hey, you're going to be
getting a call from my publisher

274
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,840
because they called me and asked
me if I wanted to write a book

275
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,960
about Southern Rock.
And I told him no, that you're

276
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,480
the guy to do it.
Oh, I'm like, well, he already

277
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:14,400
called me.
He's like, what?

278
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,120
I got off the phone with him
like 10 minutes ago.

279
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,520
He's like, what did you say?
And I said, well, I said, you

280
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,560
know, I'd be interested.
And he goes, look, I'm going to

281
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,840
give you some advice.
I know you have your passion

282
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,320
project book.
The easiest way to get a book

283
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,440
published is to have had a book
published.

284
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,920
So take a year or so out of your
life, write this book, and then

285
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,200
you're a published author and
everything is going to be a lot

286
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:44,520
easier for you going forward,
which was a huge, you know,

287
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,680
helping hand.
You're the person in a week to

288
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,560
tell me this.
By the way, writer that I've

289
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,960
I've spoken to said the same
thing, that they didn't start

290
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,040
with the passion.
They had a passion project in

291
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,160
mind.
Someone told them get XY and Z

292
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,680
done for, you know, for
commercial purposes or to get,

293
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,640
you know, that you know that
title and then and move on.

294
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,240
And it's so, it's so funny that
that sentiment is so popular.

295
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,920
Yeah, I mean, he was absolutely
right.

296
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,640
And I mean, the good news is I
grew up in Nashville, like I

297
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,680
said, and I grew up exposed to a
lot of Southern rock, and I

298
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,480
liked Southern rock.
So it wasn't like if somebody

299
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,920
had called me and was like, hey,
we're looking for someone to

300
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,960
write a book on pirate sea
shanties of the 1500s, I'd be

301
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,160
like, I have no idea where to
go.

302
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,080
So at least it was something
that I actually was interested

303
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,160
in and and it kind of saw as an
opportunity to learn more about.

304
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,400
So I kind of just dove in head
first as a student of it, you

305
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,920
know, and I learned a lot from
the process of writing that.

306
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:47,800
But you know.
I knew that.

307
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:49,760
What's that?
How'd you research?

308
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,280
What was your what was your
research process?

309
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,120
How'd you go about it?
Well, I basically just got all

310
00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:57,360
the books I could about The
Allman Brothers and Lynyrd

311
00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:01,400
Skynyrd and, you know, started
reading a bunch of articles and

312
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,640
just deep diving, you know,
finding a lot of articles from

313
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,280
the time, you know, whether it
be Rolling Stone or whatever,

314
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,640
interviews with these bands and
just started pulling it all

315
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,440
together.
Then I, you know, interviewed

316
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,560
some of the players themselves
and just started kind of trying

317
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,160
to wrap my brain around how I
was going to tell the story.

318
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:25,800
But the thing that stood out to
me and it still kind of stays

319
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:31,480
with me is, you know, Southern
rockers like in the 70s were

320
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:36,480
kind of considered like narrow
minded rednecks by everybody

321
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,400
outside the South.
And everybody in the South

322
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,880
considered them wild, long
haired rock and rollers who

323
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,680
weren't like good southern boys.
So they were kind of like.

324
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:49,720
Misfits.
Everyone without a home, you

325
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,040
know, So it's like they were
kind of rebellious to everyone,

326
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,000
which is sort of the spirit of
rock'n'roll.

327
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,080
I also, what I really came away
with was that all rock was

328
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,520
Southern rock in the beginning.
If you look at, you know, Elvis

329
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:07,720
is from, you know, Mississippi,
and Buddy Holly is from Texas

330
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,560
and Little Richard is from
Georgia, Fats Domino's from

331
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,240
Louisiana.
Like you look at every architect

332
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,680
of rock'n'roll, they're
literally all Southern.

333
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,560
And then once you have The
Beatles come and then there's

334
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,040
this whole shift and you get
into the whole like psychedelic

335
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:27,560
movement and then that all got
kind of bloated and, and then

336
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,960
you have like the Band with
Robbie Robertson come along and,

337
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,400
and everything kind of gets back
to like rootsiness.

338
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,920
That's what kind of opened the
door, I think, for Southern rock

339
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,960
to return because suddenly
everybody's kind of interested

340
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,480
in this sort of earthiness and
rootsiness that's different from

341
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,640
the whole kind of like
psychedelic movement.

342
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,520
So that's when you see The
Allman Brothers and Lynyrd

343
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,400
Skynyrd kind of rise to the
fore.

344
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,280
And I was.
Just appreciated with the band's

345
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,000
success.
What's up?

346
00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:00,640
So their their, I guess their
revival was was associated with

347
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,720
the band's success.
The band kind of brought the

348
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,160
feedback.
I think the band were the ones

349
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,040
who, like, sort of opened the
door to make.

350
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,120
I mean, they were a bunch of
Canadians, except for Levon

351
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,520
Helm, who's from Arkansas.
But you know, they opened the

352
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,560
door for that sort of appeal to,
you know, the bands over here

353
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,440
doing songs like The Night they
Drove Old Dixie Down and Cripple

354
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,400
Creek.
And like, these are Southern

355
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,480
rooted songs.
And so I would say they and

356
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,120
Creedence Clearwater Revival,
who were from Northern

357
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:28,960
California, even though people
thought they were from

358
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,560
Louisiana, like they kind of
opened.

359
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,040
The themselves along that way.
Exactly.

360
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,880
Yeah, and, and very credibly,
they did it very well.

361
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,800
But it those those bands I think
open the door for like true

362
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,040
Southern bands.
And you know, The Allman

363
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,320
Brothers and Lynyrd Skynyrd are
not particularly similar in

364
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:55,400
their in their sounds, but you
know, 2 fantastic rock bands and

365
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,160
there's so many others.
Marshall Tucker Band you

366
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,720
mentioned earlier and you know,
Wet Willie and you know, all

367
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,240
these great Southern rock bands.
So yeah, that was a lot of fun

368
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,920
for me and it's amazing how many
connection points there are.

369
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,520
I just finished writing a book
that I turned in this week about

370
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,000
soul music and.
It's nice.

371
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,280
It's.
Like, wild.

372
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,880
How many like soul figures
behind the scenes and soul music

373
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,160
were the same figures behind the
scenes in Southern rock?

374
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,760
You know, like all, all this
stuff is kind of connected.

375
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,440
It's pretty wild.
What can you tell me?

376
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,160
Can you elaborate on that a
little bit without giving away

377
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:33,160
your book?
Well, yeah, I mean, like, so The

378
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,640
Allman Brothers basically formed
from Dwayne Allman and Barry

379
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,280
Oakley and Jamo jamming at Fame
Studios in Muscle Shoals.

380
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:49,480
And Dwayne is down there playing
guitar on studio sessions for,

381
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,240
you know, Wilson Pickett and
convinces Wilson Pickett to

382
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,640
record Hey Jude.
And his guitar solo at the end

383
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,840
of Hey Jude is kind of
considered the birth of Southern

384
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,920
rock in a lot of ways.
But then, you know, Aretha

385
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,560
Franklin goes up to New York and
wants these Muscle Shoal got

386
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,920
Muscle Shoals guys to come up
and be the backing band.

387
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,240
And Dwayne is there.
You look at pictures of Aretha's

388
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,680
sessions, you know, where she's,
you know, recording some of her

389
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,880
classic hits.
And you see Dwayne Allman in the

390
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,600
background.
You know, like Phil Walden, who

391
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,920
was the head of Capricorn
Records, which was The Allman

392
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,400
Brothers label.
He was previously Otis Redding's

393
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,000
manager and you know, a lot of
solo artist managers and you

394
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,000
guys got guys like Rick Hall and
Muscle Shoals who are producing,

395
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,520
you know, these great classic
soul records with Etta James and

396
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,600
Wilson Crickett and Aretha, You
know, but then at the same time

397
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,120
he's like had a management
contract on Dwayne Allman

398
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:50,680
initially, you know, like, so
it's just interesting how you

399
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,920
see the the overlap that like
you start getting into like

400
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,640
gospel music, country music,
Blues, rock'n'roll soul, and you

401
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,080
start seeing some of these same
people crop up and you're like,

402
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:05,600
oh, there's connectivity, you
know, amongst all of it.

403
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,560
It's so amazing.
It's so amazing and it's so cool

404
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:13,280
that you're doing that because
these these genres are so much

405
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,800
fun and you could spend a
lifetime in literally each one

406
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,720
of them.
I mean, it's really crazy and

407
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,600
like such explosive creativity
all at one point, you know, just

408
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,080
like everywhere, just all over
the place was just, it was, it

409
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,640
was so incredible.
What was it?

410
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,840
What was it like when you were,
by the way?

411
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,280
I'm what was what was the
context?

412
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,360
How old are you at this point
while you're getting while

413
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:34,680
you're doing this first book?
And what was it like meeting

414
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,080
some of these while you're doing
research, meeting some of these

415
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,400
stars and meeting some of these
incredible musicians that I'm

416
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,680
sure you looked up, you were
known about forever?

417
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,320
Yeah, I mean, it was pretty
crazy.

418
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,960
You know, I remember
interviewing Billy Gibbons

419
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,000
because there's a ZZ Top chapter
in the Southern Rock book and

420
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:59,680
thinking like, you know, when I
was a kid, ZZ Top was on MTV

421
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,640
with like, you know, legs and,
you know, sharp dressed man.

422
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,480
And, you know, these guys were
like living cartoon characters,

423
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,400
you know, to a kid.
And I remember like talking to

424
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,520
Billy Gibbons on the phone and
people would always talk about

425
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,800
like, man, Billy Gibbons is like
so full of it.

426
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,800
Like he's such a mythologizer.
Like, you know, and I'm like,

427
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,560
you know, it wasn't like that
with me.

428
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,520
And then when I started thinking
about our conversation, I'm

429
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,120
like, wait, of course he was.
There's no way some of this

430
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:32,320
stuff was true, you know?
But then also like embracing

431
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,120
that of like, that's the point,
you know, he's like a larger

432
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:37,800
than life carnival Barker.
Like that's what's great about

433
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,680
him.
Like that's what's that's why

434
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,680
he's cool, you know, like a self
mythologizer, you know, and but

435
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,880
then I also realized like, oh, I
could probably be a better

436
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,960
interviewer.
Like instead of just accepting,

437
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,840
you know, everything that that
somebody tells me, it's like, I

438
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,560
feel like I kind of learned, you
know, how to interview people by

439
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,960
interviewing people.
And, you know, I've had ones

440
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,160
that have gone exceptionally
well and I've had ones that gone

441
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,000
not great, but I feel like I
learned a little something, you

442
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,120
know, every time.
And especially with my podcasts,

443
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:14,880
you know, we interview, we've,
we've interviewed almost 300

444
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:21,680
people And, you know, I feel
like I get more comfortable with

445
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:27,120
it, you know, each time.
But, you know, I think I really

446
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:31,040
had to learn like I used to
research people and then go

447
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,200
interview with them and ask them
about a bunch of stuff that I'd

448
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,760
already researched and, you
know, and I had to learn that

449
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,840
like I should probably ask him
about something that, you know,

450
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,080
I haven't seen them talk about
before because why do I need to

451
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,760
go mine the same, you know,
material.

452
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,200
So I, I try to like when I
interview people now, I try to

453
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,480
like let them know early on
that, you know, I have done my

454
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,720
homework because I think people
appreciate that and let them

455
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,480
know that I that I do know what
I'm talking about.

456
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,200
And then also feel the freedom
to kind of let it go where it

457
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,520
goes because I used to be like,
Oh no, I have these 15

458
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,000
questions.
I got to get these questions

459
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,440
asked.
And when I'm a little less

460
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,520
uptight about it and I just let
it like go where it goes, I wind

461
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,880
up finding out stuff that I
maybe never would have stumbled

462
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,840
on otherwise.
So it's kind of getting getting

463
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,440
me out of my own way a little
bit, you know?

464
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,640
But Southbound was, I mean, I
wrote that book in 2013 and

465
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,840
2014.
So I didn't like begin my career

466
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,920
as an author.
Like I've only been doing this

467
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,560
for, you know, better like a
little more than a decade.

468
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:44,400
So I, I, you know, I learned a
lot doing that book in terms of

469
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,040
how to to and I had interviewed
people before for album notes

470
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,040
and things that I had had
written for essays and articles

471
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,080
and stuff.
But that was when it was like

472
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,560
very concentrated, one big
project.

473
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,800
I really got to focus and like,
get a lot of voices in here and

474
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,360
so, yeah, it's like being thrown
into the deep end of the pool

475
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:05,040
and figuring out how to swim.
Yeah, but sometimes, I mean,

476
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,640
sometimes that's the way you got
to do it, you know?

477
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,440
And I mean, I'm finding that I'm
finding that to be exceptionally

478
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,680
true with my own experiences,
you know, and like what you said

479
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,440
about maybe I started doing
podcasts a year and a half ago,

480
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,440
you know, and, and it's all
relatively new to me, but it's

481
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,000
funny that you say that the
bullet points or the list of

482
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,680
questions, because I usually
give my guests the choice.

483
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,880
I say, I could send you a
bullet, a list of bullet points

484
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,840
of things that were that I'd
like to get to.

485
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,880
I was like, however, I don't
want to be married to a script,

486
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,840
you know, and a lot of times the
conversation just kind of flows

487
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,720
best when you let them breathe
and everyone gets to do their

488
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,920
own thing.
So, so I was like, if you want a

489
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,600
general gist, here's a couple of
big points I want to get to.

490
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,080
But overall, that's really,
really amazing about the I'm,

491
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,480
I'm particularly excited by the,
the connection between Seoul and

492
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,080
between Seoul and Southern rock.
I have to look into that because

493
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,920
I didn't think that I, I, I
wouldn't have, I would have

494
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,920
dreamt that.
There's probably more like, you

495
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,000
know, the famous Jerry Garcia
playing on opening of teach

496
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,360
children playing slide, you
know, on Cosby Stills and Nash

497
00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:12,200
and young and and I knew that
that whole like scene, the San

498
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,760
Francisco or Laurel Canyon
scene, everyone was always very,

499
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,280
you know, popping in with one
another.

500
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,320
I didn't realize it extended
cross genres across the country

501
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,160
like that.
Yeah, yeah.

502
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,640
Oh, yeah, for sure.
I mean, you know, it's the the

503
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,960
guys who played on, you know,
the Aretha Franklin stuff that

504
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,680
she cut.
Well, she really only cut one

505
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,920
complete song in Muscle Shoals
at FAME Studios, but those guys

506
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,440
wound up going and launching
their own studio called Muscle

507
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,920
Shoals Sound and it's like they
recorded the earliest Lynyrd

508
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,880
Skynyrd recordings.
They also recorded The Rolling

509
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,920
Stones came through there and
recorded Brown Sugar and Wild

510
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,880
Horses.
They had to cut about 3 songs in

511
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,720
that studio.
Well then those guys cut The

512
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,960
Staple Singers, like I'll take
you there, respect yourself.

513
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,480
You know, these are the same
group of people that are playing

514
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,200
on these records, producing
these records at their studio.

515
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,760
But there's really a
interesting, like, social

516
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,760
component to all this in that
the music industry was, you

517
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:20,080
know, primarily white in terms
of leadership, in terms of

518
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,400
executives at record label
studio owners, that sort of

519
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,880
thing.
And yet you had a phenomenal

520
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,880
number of black artists who
were, you know, making them all

521
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,120
this money, having these hits.
And when Martin Luther King

522
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:40,320
died, there was such a sense of
a shift.

523
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:48,560
A lot of hope was lost.
And a lot of black artists and a

524
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,080
small handful of people in the
black industry started looking

525
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,120
around and going, you know, why?
Why aren't there more black

526
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,000
producers?
Why aren't there more black

527
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,760
radio programmers?
Why aren't there more black

528
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,360
executives?
And there was really this tidal

529
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,360
wave that began of we got to
realign some things.

530
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,600
And it was largely, you know,
King's assassination that I

531
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,520
think brought everything into
sharp focus that, you know, it,

532
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,120
it's time to quit waiting around
for things to change.

533
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:18,400
We got to change them.
There you go.

534
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:26,320
And, you know, a lot of a lot of
white producers and executives

535
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:31,720
were suddenly kind of cast as
the villains and, you know, and

536
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,720
seen as having been exploiting
some of these artists.

537
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,720
And in some cases that was true.
And in other cases, I think some

538
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,640
people were sort of unfairly
characterized.

539
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:47,640
And but, you know, for I think
the net of that whole movement

540
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,360
was a good thing that there was
more.

541
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,480
You saw more black ownership.
You saw more black

542
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,200
entrepreneurship, you saw more
black participation in these

543
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,560
bigger companies that had
basically not had Black A&R men

544
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,640
or black producers or whatever.
Yeah, and I'd say A&R men, it

545
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,080
was all men.
Still incredibly sexist at that

546
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:12,240
time, and probably still is.
But that's when you see guys

547
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,960
like Recall who owned Fame
Studios.

548
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,160
You see guys like Phil Walden,
who had been Otis Redding's

549
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,120
manager, that's when they start
looking at groups.

550
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,240
They start looking at people
like Dwayne Allman and going,

551
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,200
well, what's our, what's our
future, you know?

552
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,240
So that's what's really
interesting is you see a lot of

553
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,960
the industry people sort of glom
onto the Southern rock thing

554
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,760
because here's something that's
rising and we've kind of lost

555
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,040
our standing in the world of
black music so.

556
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,120
I see it's.
Very interesting kind of social

557
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,000
study in terms of all those
connections and then how they

558
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,800
kind of splintered and then took
time in some cases to rebuild

559
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,520
trust.
And in some cases the trust was

560
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,880
not rebuilt and in some cases it
probably shouldn't have been

561
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,880
because there was some
exploitative stuff going on.

562
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,640
So it's all from, and I don't
get too often to all that, you

563
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,120
know, in my writing about
Southern rock, but it's it's in

564
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,960
the backdrop and it's super
interesting.

565
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,480
Yeah, that's fascinating.
I didn't know about that.

566
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,080
I knew I knew.
I I remember, I don't remember

567
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,200
where I read it, but I remember
reading that right after, after

568
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,760
Martin Luther King Junior was
shot.

569
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,880
James Brandt, someone, I forgot
who it was, maybe the government

570
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,800
or maybe someone, someone pretty
significant in society called

571
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,160
James Brown.
And he said, I need you.

572
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,920
I need you to make sure that the
black community does not, does

573
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,160
not explode into, into riots.
And he's like, I don't know what

574
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:40,400
you know, like I know you have a
big show.

575
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:41,960
I think he had, he had a big
show that night.

576
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,960
You had a big concert and
everyone was just getting the

577
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,880
news And they were telling him
like, you can either stir things

578
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,960
up or you could, you know, calm
things down.

579
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,040
And I, I, and they were pleading
him to calm things down.

580
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,520
I don't remember.
I don't even remember what James

581
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,720
Brown, James Brown's response
was, but just like, well, I

582
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,160
think I think everyone knew
that.

583
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,320
Like, listen, whoever, whoever
was the leadership in the quote

584
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,000
UN quote record studio is one
thing.

585
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,400
But like the people creating the
music and the sound, like

586
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,440
everyone, all the great white
music of the 60s and 70s came

587
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,360
from, a majority of it came from
black music, you know?

588
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,240
And yeah.
And I think people knew that.

589
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,040
I think there was that as a
society.

590
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,640
I think that people, you know,
recognize that, you know, this

591
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:24,880
is really where everything comes
from.

592
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,080
Yeah.
Yeah.

593
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,640
Yeah, it was.
It was right after King was

594
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,360
killed that James Brown was
supposed to be giving a concert.

595
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:44,920
And I think it was in, I want to
say Cleveland, or maybe it was

596
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:45,640
Boston.
It.

597
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:47,440
Was Boston think it was.
Boston, I think it was.

598
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,680
Boston it was.
Boston, yeah, in 16.

599
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:59,120
So he had this concert scheduled
and basically they were worried

600
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,600
about, well, should we get.
I mean, there had been these

601
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,840
sort of uprisings in all of
these major U.S. cities.

602
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,720
Yeah.
And they're like, do we need to

603
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,120
bring a bunch of people downtown
into Boston and, you know,

604
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,520
potentially risk having a
problem?

605
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:21,840
You know, and basically they
decided, OK, let's have James

606
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,360
Brown go forward with the
concert and let's put it on TV

607
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,960
and encourage some people to
stay home and watch it and some

608
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,239
people to come.
And like, it was essentially

609
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,280
like, there was literally like 1
black Councilman.

610
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,120
And he was like, if you cancel
this concert, you're going to

611
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,600
bring all of these people who
are already like.

612
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:43,520
Feeling this outrage?
And then they're going to show

613
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,480
up and there to be a concert's
cancelled, like creating a

614
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,679
powder can, you know?
And so James Brown did perform

615
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:55,360
and he did kind of make an
appeal to like, hey, let's like

616
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,880
let cooler heads prevail.
And we're not going to solve.

617
00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,600
We're not going to answer
violence with violence.

618
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,600
And it is considered a, you
know, kind of a pivotal,

619
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,880
important moment in the
aftermath so that Boston did not

620
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,320
experience the people that, you
know, other cities did.

621
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,240
And even at one point, like a
bunch of people did kind of like

622
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:17,600
rush the stage and get on the
stage and we're kind of dancing

623
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,400
and stuff.
And the police start moving in

624
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,680
and you see James Brown.
There's video of this.

625
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,040
You see James Brown like telling
the cops to back off.

626
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,960
It's pretty bold when you're
like one dude on stage and you

627
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,920
got a bunch of fans like that
are getting up and getting

628
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,200
rowdy.
And he basically like calms the

629
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,040
whole thing down.
It's like go back to your seats.

630
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,480
Like you're embarrassing
yourselves.

631
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:40,160
Like, you know, And he he
basically like intervenes and

632
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,320
keeps the cops from probably
creating a, a worse situation.

633
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,240
So yeah, it's an interesting and
James Brown's a completely

634
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:51,520
interesting study because he's
all about sort of like self

635
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,800
determination, but also was like
kind of conservative.

636
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,400
He's a Nixon supporter.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

637
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,080
It's he's an interesting, an
interesting sort of mix, you

638
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:07,320
know, of, of conservative
politics, but also, you know,

639
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,240
very much pushing for equality
for black Americans.

640
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,040
You know, the the lines aren't
always so neat with this stuff.

641
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,760
You know, you sort of wind up
with these complex figures where

642
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,040
you're like, you know, yeah,
yeah, yeah.

643
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,160
Yeah, yeah, James Brown is, is
another, is another guy that I

644
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,960
have not yet gone deep enough
into.

645
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,160
But and, and was and was Sam
Cooke killed earlier than this

646
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,360
or around this point in time?
When, when, when was he killed

647
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,480
then?
I mean, I'd love to talk about

648
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,680
how, why, why that was so
significant, you know, and how

649
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,480
and, and how significant he was,
if you went elaborate at all.

650
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,920
I mean, Sam Cooke was, when you
talk about soul music, Sam Cooke

651
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,280
might have been the reason that
soul music even ever existed as

652
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,320
a concept.
You could argue that it was Ray

653
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:58,520
Charles or Sam Cooke, but Sam
died in December of 1964, a

654
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,240
couple years earlier, and that
was like a huge loss.

655
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:06,080
The thing that was the thing
that's unique about soul music,

656
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:12,520
as you know, compared to R&B, is
the R&B music was, you know, of

657
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:17,640
the 40s and 50s was very much
kind of like this sort of upbeat

658
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,960
dancing music.
It's what, like, white artists

659
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,760
basically took and turned into
rock'n'roll.

660
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,000
Yeah.
That's why I like it.

661
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,840
Yeah, right.
And soul emerged in the 19, late

662
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,640
1950s, early 1960s, and it
really came directly out of the

663
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:39,600
black church and where a lot of
like R&B artists like Little

664
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,760
Richard or whoever, like they,
they, their music was not like

665
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,680
the music of the church.
But you have Ray Charles come

666
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,560
and literally take gospel songs
that were, you know, part of the

667
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,440
church tradition and change the
lyrics and in make them.

668
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,160
I love the organ from that too,
yeah.

669
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,120
Yeah, and use the organ and use
that style of singing.

670
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,200
It comes right out of the
church.

671
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:05,120
Well, Sam Cooke, you know, Ray
Charles had church in his

672
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,720
background, but Sam Cooke was a
member of the Soulsters, which

673
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:11,400
was basically the most popular
gospel group of the day.

674
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:16,240
And his voice was so
distinctive, and women were

675
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:17,880
like, losing their minds over
this guy.

676
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:23,320
Like he was way too smooth and
way too sexy, you know?

677
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,840
Yeah, He was arousing far too
much passion.

678
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:30,320
That was more of the carnal side
than the spiritual side.

679
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,280
I say he might be responsible
for the birth of soul music

680
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,480
because when he started, I
think, you know, when he left

681
00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:40,400
gospel music and went into
secular music, he already had

682
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,760
this huge fan base from the
gospel world that he kind of

683
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:43,800
brought with him.
Yeah.

684
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,040
And, you know, he was already
like a rock star in in the

685
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,240
gospel world, but then, you
know, he really became kind of a

686
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:54,160
pop singer.
I mean, like, you send me and,

687
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,120
you know, that's don't know much
about history.

688
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,000
Like all that stuff is to me,
it's kind of pop music.

689
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,880
But he had that smooth voice and
everybody knew it was Sam Cooke,

690
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:04,720
like, you know, who knew the
soul stars.

691
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,000
And toward the end of his life,
he he recorded A Change is Going

692
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:14,760
to Come, which was a pivotal
civil rights anthem and very,

693
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,440
very important song
sociologically.

694
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,280
And then it became a hit after
he after he died.

695
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,640
And that song is what he is most
remembered for.

696
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,520
I think rightfully so is that he
was using his platform to say,

697
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,560
you know, we've got to have some
social change.

698
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,920
And that's why I think Sam Cooke
is so pivotal as a soul singer

699
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,920
because I think soul music came
out of the church, like I said,

700
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,960
and he's he's the absolute
representative of came from from

701
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,760
that gospel church tradition,
but then also addressed real

702
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,240
life concerns.
And soul music, I say in my

703
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:57,160
book, was music that was sung by
black adults for black adults.

704
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:02,920
Like it wasn't really geared at
teenagers, so to speak.

705
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:07,000
It wasn't about getting up and
dance dancing, at least not

706
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,120
initially.
It was about grappling with,

707
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,520
like, real life, like
infidelity, love, heartbreak,

708
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,520
social change.
And, you know, Sam Cooke kind of

709
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,320
set the template for that in a
lot of ways.

710
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:22,400
And as it turned out, a lot of
white people like that music,

711
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,520
too.
And, you know, a lot of that

712
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,480
stuff crossed over and became
pop hits.

713
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,520
But I argue in the book that it
really was intended for a black

714
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:36,440
adult audience and that with the
exception of Motown, where Berry

715
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,040
Gordy wanted to sell any record
he could to any individual on

716
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,080
the face of the earth and was
trying to be as neutral as

717
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,400
possible.
But otherwise the soul music

718
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:51,120
movement appealed to to a white
audience, but was really geared

719
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,280
toward a black audience.
And it, it transcended because

720
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,080
they, they tapped into that sort
of, you know, they would say,

721
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,120
you know, soul is about feeling.
And so you can't help but tap

722
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,400
into the universal human
experience at some point.

723
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,480
And it's going to appeal to, you
know, all kinds of people from

724
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,080
all kinds of backgrounds.
But but I do think of it as

725
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,120
like, it's adult music that
deals with real, real subject

726
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,440
matter.
And a change is going to come.

727
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,760
It's probably one of the
greatest songs ever written.

728
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,480
Yeah, I, I, I feel like a change
is going to come is like the

729
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,160
flip side of the same coin as
blowing in the wind as far as,

730
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,400
like, you know, social change
and justice like songs.

731
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,120
For sure.
Sam Cooke.

732
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,360
I mean, literally heard Bob
Dylan's blowing in the wind and

733
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,920
was like, hey, who's this white
cat?

734
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,160
That's like speaking to our
reality?

735
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,240
Like, I got to do this.
This guy's this guy.

736
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,680
He covered that, or he covered
the times they were changing.

737
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,640
He covered blowing the wind
right.

738
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,080
I don't, I don't remember, but I
know that I know that Dylan was

739
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,800
was a huge inspiration for him
to step out and say I need to be

740
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,680
writing about social topics that
matter.

741
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,040
Yeah, he does a great cover of
Blowing the Wind.

742
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,040
We're checking out.
And do you also, do you feel the

743
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,560
same way about Blues in terms of
the Black music for Black adults

744
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,880
or Black adult music for Black
adults, as far as its

745
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,520
intentionality is concerned?
Yeah.

746
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,480
I mean, I think in the early
days, absolutely.

747
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,240
Yeah, right.
I mean, it was, it was primarily

748
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:23,960
black artists making music for a
black audience.

749
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:29,160
And then a bunch of white
people, like resonated with it.

750
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,160
And then, you know, most of
white America ignored the Blues

751
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,640
until The Rolling Stones, like
fell in love with it and Eric

752
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,240
Clapton.
And then they sold it back to

753
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,760
the white America that had
ignored it to begin with.

754
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,280
But the upside of that was then
that people started going, hey,

755
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,920
I love this Rolling Stone stuff.
Who's Willie Dixon?

756
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:51,960
Who's Muddy Waters?
Who's Allen Wolf?

757
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:57,000
Like, let me go find out.
So, you know, I think that's a

758
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,480
case where soul music was like a
Direct Line to the radio.

759
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,320
White audiences loved it.
It crossed over to pop, whereas

760
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:08,640
Blues took a generation to be
sold package to a white audience

761
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,160
through these British guys,
which is super interesting.

762
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,360
But and I and I think that even
that, I think helped open the

763
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,840
doors in some ways to Southern
rock because now you've got

764
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,920
British guys going.
Blues music is cool.

765
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,680
And you know, Blues is very much
a Southern form originally that

766
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,600
then went to Chicago and became
electrified and a precursor to

767
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,480
part of the Stew that made
rock'n'roll.

768
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,760
Yeah, right.
But But, yeah, I think, you

769
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,080
know, there, there's a great
live record with Nina Simone

770
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,880
where she's introducing her song
to be young, gifted in black.

771
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,920
And she basically says something
to the effect of if you're

772
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,200
white, you can like this song,
but it's not for you.

773
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,720
Yeah.
I think you're not the center of

774
00:43:51,720 --> 00:43:53,720
the universe.
I didn't write this song with

775
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:57,440
you in mind.
This is me as a black artist

776
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,040
writing this song to a black
audience.

777
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:00,200
Like it all you want.
It's fine.

778
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,080
It doesn't bother me.
I'm glad if you like it.

779
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,600
But yeah.
But know who it's for?

780
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,200
Yeah, don't center it yourself.
And I think there's something

781
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,400
telling in that.
There is, for sure, Yeah.

782
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,520
It's funny that it's funny the
way you put it, that Blues had

783
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,200
to be repackaged and brought
back.

784
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:18,920
It blew my mind when I found
out.

785
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,640
It's funny.
I tried to I never, The Rolling

786
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,560
Stones really never resonated
with me as strongly as some

787
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:26,960
other bands at that at that
time.

788
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,520
And I like a lot of theirs.
I like, I like their music

789
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,280
plenty.
And I really, I'm not, I'm not

790
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,960
trying to detract anything from
their greatness, but it blew my

791
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,920
mind when I listened to the
first record.

792
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,840
I went back to the beginning and
I tried listening to some of

793
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,240
their discography and it was a,
it was a weird, I never heard

794
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:45,440
Blues.
At this point in my life, it's

795
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,920
probably 5 or 6 years ago, I
never heard any Blues before

796
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,200
like this is this doesn't sound
like The Rolling Stones.

797
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:51,640
And I didn't recognize any of
the songs.

798
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,880
And then Fast forward like 3 or
4 years and now I'm much more

799
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,120
into the Blues actually, again
through Way of the Grateful Dead

800
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,000
where I would hear their covers
from the early 60s, sorry, late

801
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,760
60s, early 70s with Pig Pen.
And, and then I'd look at all

802
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,080
these like songs like, and then
I'd look and then again I'd find

803
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,760
the original songs and then I'd,
and so I went through this whole

804
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,400
little Blues phase and then I
went back to the album and I'm

805
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,480
like, this whole album's just
covers.

806
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,440
I started to realize that the
Romance Stories are a cover

807
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,880
band, you know and, and they
were at first.

808
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They definitely just started out

809
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,040
covering Blues and early soul
records that they liked and

810
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,560
that's.
How they it's so funny, isn't

811
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,080
it?
It's so crazy and you don't

812
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,440
associate that.
I mean, I love The Rolling

813
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,320
Stones, one of my favorite
bands, but basically, like The

814
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,160
Rolling Stones didn't really
become The Rolling Stones till

815
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,760
like 68, you know, and from like
68 into the early 70s, seventy

816
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:48,640
374, you know, that period of
like Fingers Banquet and Sticky

817
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,000
Fingers and Exile on Main
Street, That stuff's just

818
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,960
unbeatable.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.

819
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,320
And the whole, and I'm curious
if you've what you know about

820
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,560
this from a more historical or
social perspective.

821
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,800
But the Altamont, the Altamont
fiasco, you call her the

822
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,800
infamous Altamont concert, which
I'm sure you'll explain just

823
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,040
briefly, but that if you don't
mind.

824
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,920
But that they have an impact on
the reputation on the way that

825
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:16,840
they played music, on the way
that they kind of looked at

826
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,040
themselves.
Because, you know, like from

827
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,200
that point they kind of got a
little bit more embracing,

828
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,400
embracing, you know, the, you
know, the good and the bad and

829
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,120
the devil and and and and
otherwise, you know, So, yeah,

830
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:31,600
maybe you could talk about that
a little bit.

831
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:37,920
I think, you know, I think Mick
got really freaked out by that.

832
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,680
And you know, for maybe those
who don't know, Altamont was a

833
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,040
big concert in 1969 that
supposed.

834
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,240
To be the West Coast Woodstock.
Yeah, the West Coast Woodstock,

835
00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:53,400
but the Hells Angels were hired
to provide security, which by

836
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,040
the way, that that came from the
Grateful Dead.

837
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:01,520
That was that was a Grateful
Dead thing and a guy winds up

838
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,800
getting stabbed to death and
there was just so I know the

839
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,080
Flying Braider brothers played
on that show and I the.

840
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:10,440
Dead were going to play.
They left.

841
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,520
Yeah, I did a couple of.
I did a bird's book that Chris

842
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,920
Hillman was involved in.
And then I was, I edited Chris

843
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:23,440
Hillman's autobiography and he,
of course, was in the Birds and

844
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:26,360
Flying Burrito Brothers.
And, you know, he talked about

845
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,360
like, from the time they
arrived, it was like a mood that

846
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:36,400
was just like a, he described it
as like a sinister vibe in the

847
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,160
air.
And, you know, you're kind of

848
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,400
coming out of this whole summer
of like the Manson murders,

849
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,040
which I think now there's just
so much.

850
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,640
It was more like shocking
violence in the news this past

851
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,280
weekend alone than people were
exposed to.

852
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,560
Yeah, in that era, probably in
like a year, yeah.

853
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,840
It's a big deal.
There's a lot of deaths around

854
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:00,560
that time, though, in Laurel
Canyon.

855
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,240
There's a whole lot of odd
deaths around then, too.

856
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:04,840
Yeah, so.
Yeah.

857
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,480
And I remember, I just remember
Chris talking about like, if you

858
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,560
weren't there, you can't grasp,
like how this just sort of

859
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:17,920
almost evil vibe was permeating,
you know, at the time.

860
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,040
And he's like, we went up there
and he's like, from the time we

861
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,600
arrived at Altamont, it was just
like everything was like,

862
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:32,360
unsettled and kind of spooky
and, you know, basically, I

863
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,400
think it really freaked out Mick
Jagger after that happened.

864
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,440
But it's widely considered like
the end of the hippie era.

865
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,200
You know, you think of Monterey
and you think of Woodstock and

866
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,280
it's all peace and love.
And then like now you go, wait.

867
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,880
Well, maybe we're not insulated
from the harsh realities of

868
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:54,160
violence, you know, And so,
yeah, it was a, it was a big

869
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:55,760
deal.
But I, I remember just Chris

870
00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:00,480
talking to me about that, about
the, the feeling of that day

871
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,280
from somebody who was there and,
and yeah, I mean, it's, it's

872
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,600
sort of marks the, the end of
the peace and love and all the

873
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,920
possibilities.
And you know it.

874
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,280
It's like harsh reality comes
crashing into the, you know,

875
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,520
hippie utopia in a way.
Yeah, I mean, and I and I and I

876
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,920
believe, I mean based on the
accounts that I read and I could

877
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,240
be wrong, but based on a couple
of accounts that I read about

878
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:27,000
this general point in time,
Haight Ashbury was kind of

879
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,040
crumbling at this point in terms
of everyone is kind of moving

880
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,440
out.
And and people kind of went from

881
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,800
like shrooms and LSD to more
speed and heroin and and coke.

882
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,800
And so like you kind of have
these, what would be typically

883
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,360
called like love drugs and love
scene kind of getting permeated

884
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:45,960
with something a little bit more
sinister.

885
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,560
And I mean, tell anyone, you
know, try, you know, give

886
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,920
someone, give someone some LSD
and give someone a lot a bump of

887
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,480
coke and see, you know, what the
difference is in terms of their,

888
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,720
in terms of the, the outcome,
you know.

889
00:49:55,720 --> 00:49:59,920
And so I'm, I wonder if that was
more of like of Ultima was kind

890
00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:05,840
of the, the first, first attempt
of a gathering for this new

891
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,200
crowd that had moved into the to
that area.

892
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:11,640
Because I think we can't say
again that this everything was

893
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,840
kind of heading down, going
downhill for for San Francisco

894
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,360
at that point.
Yeah.

895
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,880
And you, you got to look at
like, what drugs cost what

896
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:21,920
money.
And then all of a sudden these,

897
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,680
like rock stars have a lot of
money that they never had

898
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,720
before.
Then you start getting into the

899
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:33,000
expensive, the expensive drugs.
And you know, then these guys

900
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,000
like, yeah, didn't do their
personalities any favors.

901
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,680
I just read a Wonderland Ave.
for the first time.

902
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:43,200
My friend of my friend of the
podcast sent me, sent me the

903
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,360
copy of the book and the first
half of the book blew my mind.

904
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,240
I don't know if you read it
before you know, it's about it's

905
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:54,360
about what's his name?
The he was Jim Morrison's

906
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:59,840
publicist in like high school,
Danny Sugarman and his story.

907
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,720
And so the first half of the
book is how he was in high

908
00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:04,200
school as a, you know, even
middle school, you know, and

909
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:05,680
just hanging around the door
scene.

910
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,440
And then he just started taking
the mail and writing the press

911
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,680
releases.
And then the whole second-half

912
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:15,120
of the book is just about his
full blown heroin addiction and

913
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,800
like what that was.
And, and again, this also

914
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,960
coincides historically with the
exact same transition from the

915
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,880
time period from the late 60,
you know, from like end of 68

916
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:28,760
and then like entering the 70s,
just becoming like a heroin,

917
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,200
coke kind of scene that was just
so destructive to everyone

918
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,880
around it that like music
literally had to just move on

919
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:36,720
down somewhere else.
You know, it's crazy.

920
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:38,240
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Can.

921
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,920
You tell me about the birds a
little bit cuz I, I love them

922
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,920
and, and I like, I think I'm
more of a CSNY guy.

923
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,160
But how did you decide to write
about them?

924
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,800
Was that a passion project or is
that something that was

925
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,600
recommended again by, by a
friend or an editor?

926
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:57,280
How'd that go?
No, it was.

927
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,400
It was my idea.
As I mentioned, I edited Chris

928
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:07,080
Hillman's autobiography, which
is called Time between my My

929
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,360
Life is a Bird, Burrito Brother
and beyond.

930
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,480
I was like a good, I like a good
long subtitle so people know

931
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:17,640
what they're getting into.
And so I had worked with Chris

932
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:22,160
on that.
And then around the time right

933
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:28,200
before the pandemic hit, I was,
I wanted to get into doing some

934
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:34,240
like really nice coffee table
books, like expensive high end,

935
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:36,680
like collector item type coffee
table books.

936
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,760
And I thought, wow, wouldn't it
be cool to do a Bird's coffee

937
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,760
table book?
But, you know, obviously the

938
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,640
band hadn't been together in
many years.

939
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:52,440
Sure.
And David Crosby did not tend to

940
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:56,640
endear himself to people that he
had been in bands with before.

941
00:52:57,240 --> 00:53:09,560
And so Crosby and and Rodger
Mcguinn basically, like didn't

942
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,200
have any communication with each
other.

943
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,760
I think Chris and, and Crosby
would like text and stuff, but

944
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,600
it wasn't like they hung out
like, you know, they weren't

945
00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:21,520
tight.
And the Birds had not done

946
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:27,960
anything like those three guys
had not done anything in years

947
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,240
since the 90s.
Like there was a box set that

948
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:32,560
came out in the early 90s and
they did a few new songs.

949
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,520
But that was the last time that
Mcguinn and Hillman and Crosby

950
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,960
had done anything together.
So I thought, what are the

951
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,160
chances, you know, of making
this actually happen?

952
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:50,200
And I basically talked to Chris
and his wife Connie, who is his

953
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,640
manager and has an amazing
background herself working with

954
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,600
Elton John and Queen and all
these, you know, you know, great

955
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:00,360
artists.
So she was basically like, well,

956
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,480
you know, we'll talk about it
with the Mcguinns.

957
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:07,360
And the Mcguinns were on board
and, and Chris and Rodger are

958
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,600
pretty good friends.
And they had been out on tour

959
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,200
with Marty Stewart, who is a big
country artist, and they've been

960
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:18,440
doing this anniversary series of
concerts for the Sweetheart of

961
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,400
the Rodeo album that the Birds,
You know, they're one kind of

962
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,080
big country album that was a
complete flop at the time, but

963
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,880
it's become a cult classic.
So those guys have been working

964
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:30,000
together, but not with with
Crosby because Crosby was out of

965
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,960
the band at that point when they
did Sweetheart.

966
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:39,120
But basically, I think the only
reason that the Mcguinns, like,

967
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,640
got on board was because the
Hillman's were like, yeah, we've

968
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,440
worked with this guy, like, he's
OK.

969
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:50,520
Like, you know, and literally
the the Mcguinn's whole thing

970
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,760
was like, our contract has to be
identical to whatever contract

971
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,920
Hillman got, you know, because
we trust that they will have

972
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:00,360
negotiated a good contract.
So I was like, yeah, no problem,

973
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,640
that's fine with me.
And then Crosby got on board.

974
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:09,440
And the real reason Crosby got
on board is because the pandemic

975
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:13,200
was starting and he couldn't go
out and tour.

976
00:55:13,720 --> 00:55:19,320
And, you know, Crosby LED a
storied life and did not hang on

977
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,760
to a lot of his money and so.
But he spent it well.

978
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,400
Yeah, yeah, he Speaking of
expensive drugs.

979
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,840
So he basically was like, yeah,
I can't go out and tour and make

980
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:34,720
a living.
So a book advance sounds, you

981
00:55:34,720 --> 00:55:39,760
know, good.
So he signed on and then I

982
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:44,920
became the 3 ring, you know,
circus master where I would just

983
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:46,800
go back and forth between these
three guys.

984
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,440
Wow.
As we put this book together and

985
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:55,320
it was Wildman like it was, it's
got to be the, IT was the.

986
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,760
Entire world.
No, I mean, do we we when you

987
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,520
wake up, you're like, I'm so
excited to do this or like, was

988
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:05,800
it, I mean, we was it a dream?
What was it like?

989
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:07,720
Because these are the main it
was you're dealing with.

990
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,040
Yeah, yeah, it was great.
I mean, I basically I was like,

991
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:14,760
I want to find every photo of
the birds that was ever taken.

992
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:20,280
And the book was like just 1964
to 1967.

993
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,480
So it was just the original Five
guys.

994
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,320
And then like Jean Clark peeled
off, you know, relatively early

995
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:33,560
Crosby was out so.
But by the by the end of 67, it

996
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,240
was only three of the original
guys that remained.

997
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,240
And so I took it up to that that
point.

998
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,760
And then of course, like Graham
Parsons briefly, you know, came

999
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,800
in and then Hillman left and
then like Mcguinn went on for

1000
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,920
like another 5-6, seven years,
whatever, with different

1001
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,920
configurations.
But this was just the original,

1002
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,280
you know, original lineup that I
was dealing with.

1003
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:58,600
So I was dealing with like, so I
was like, I got to find every

1004
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,200
photo of these guys and I'll say
that I haven't seen a photo

1005
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,160
since that I.
I haven't seen.

1006
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,640
That I haven't seen.
And then just start going

1007
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,760
through the photos with the guys
like, hey, what do you like?

1008
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,760
What do you not like, you know,
what do you want?

1009
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,440
And they were all pretty
different in terms of like one

1010
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:20,360
of them was just like, I don't
care.

1011
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,120
One of them was like, I want to
see every single one.

1012
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,040
Like, you know, it was just a
different experience with each

1013
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,320
member of the group.
But yeah, just starting to like

1014
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:32,480
that.
That's when the research becomes

1015
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,040
like, I feel like a detective
where I'm trying to like, find

1016
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,520
all these images and then like,
figure out how this is all going

1017
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,920
to fit together.
And I love this sort of like

1018
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,880
puzzle part of it where you're
like, OK, we've got, we've got

1019
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:45,960
this, we got that.
How does this all get going to

1020
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:47,640
fit together?
How is it going to flow?

1021
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,440
And then just sitting down with
those three guys separately and

1022
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:54,960
being like, let's walk through
every photo.

1023
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:57,640
Tell me the stories that this
evokes.

1024
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,400
Tell me if you remember this or
if you don't or like, you know,

1025
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:01,080
whatever.
So.

1026
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,520
Those conversations season their
stories like multiple people

1027
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,360
have different memories based on
the picture.

1028
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,840
Yeah, yeah, sometimes.
And in the book, I mean,

1029
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:14,920
sometimes I just have
contradictory things right next

1030
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:18,320
to each other because the book,
the book will have like, you

1031
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:20,880
know, it's Roger's.
It'll say who's speaking.

1032
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:22,720
So the book is like an oral
history.

1033
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,920
So where it's like Roger, Chris,
David, sometimes they'll be two

1034
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,280
memories right next to each
other that completely contradict

1035
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:30,520
each other.
But I'm like, that's fine.

1036
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:32,480
Yeah.
You know, everybody remembers

1037
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,360
something different, you know?
So I kind of like that when

1038
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:38,600
doing history, Like, people
remember things differently.

1039
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,560
So let's just put up both their
memories and then, you know.

1040
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,920
Good for you, good for you.
That's such a great way of doing

1041
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:47,960
it.
It's so honest.

1042
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:51,920
It's so cool.
There's a great author, I want

1043
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:55,000
to say his name is James Andrew
Miller, but I'm also not sure if

1044
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,480
I'm thinking of the right guy.
He wrote a book, a book called

1045
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:00,000
Tinderbox.
He wrote a book about the CIA.

1046
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:05,200
He he wrote about ESPN.
And the way that he writes books

1047
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,720
is he essentially compiles
hundreds of hours of interviews

1048
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:12,960
and then arranges snippets of
the interviews into a coherent

1049
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:14,640
story similar to what you're
saying.

1050
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,440
And you know, and so like,
you'll have, for example, like

1051
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:21,200
with HBO book, you'll be like 2
guys talk about the same deal.

1052
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,040
And the 2 ends of the story is
like is the best fucking deal I

1053
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,560
ever made in my entire life.
Other guys like I never should

1054
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:28,560
have made that fucking deal.
It was the end of my career, you

1055
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:32,760
know, And so I mean, I, I love
that.

1056
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,200
I think that I think that
embracing that kind of multi,

1057
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,160
multi narrative is, is tons of
fun.

1058
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:40,800
How do you sorry, go ahead.
I remember when I was doing the

1059
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:48,200
Southern Rock book, having an
instance where Ed King from

1060
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:53,960
Lynyrd Skynyrd had gone through
this whole very specific memory

1061
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:58,800
of how one particular song came
together in the studio.

1062
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,440
And Al Cooper, who was their
producer, also famous for, you

1063
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,480
know, playing the organ on like
a Rolling Stone and a bunch of

1064
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:07,320
other Dylan stuff.
That's right.

1065
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,280
One of the great characters of
rock'n'roll history.

1066
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,880
But Al Cooper produced that
Lynyrd Skynyrd record and I

1067
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:18,760
interviewed him and he was an
interesting guy.

1068
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,760
He I don't think he really
wanted to do an interview, so he

1069
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:23,840
told me he would do it at 3:00
in the morning.

1070
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:25,480
Really.
Yeah.

1071
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:29,800
Yeah, OK.
So, but little did he know that

1072
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:31,480
he lived in New York and I lived
in LA.

1073
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:33,360
So I'm like 3:00 is midnight for
me.

1074
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:35,560
So it's not that bad.
You know, so funny.

1075
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,240
So so I I called his bluff and
we did it at 3:00 in the

1076
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:39,960
morning.
No way.

1077
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:41,600
What was it like?
And called him.

1078
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:46,040
Yeah, so I called him and we
talked and but he had this thing

1079
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,640
of like, he wanted to see the
chapter before he'd agreed to

1080
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:53,760
let me publish it, which I
wouldn't do that today, but this

1081
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,160
is my first book.
And I said, OK, So I sent him

1082
01:00:56,160 --> 01:01:00,160
the chapter and he goes, he
disagreed with what Ed King had

1083
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:03,080
said about how the session went.
And I had both of their

1084
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:07,360
remembrances, like paragraphs,
like next to you, like every,

1085
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:12,400
every man got his say, you know,
And I was like, well, the way I

1086
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:13,960
remember it is right.
That's what happened.

1087
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,840
So you can't put what Ed said.
And I'm like, well, but it's

1088
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,680
clearly attributed to Ed.
It's not me saying this is how

1089
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,160
it happened.
Ed says how he remembers it.

1090
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:23,960
You say how you remember it,
everyone you know.

1091
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:27,840
And he was really like, he had
to, I had to really fight him on

1092
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:29,400
that.
Like he was, you know, and I'm

1093
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:32,200
like, look, dude, like what if I
talk to Ed and he said I got to

1094
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:34,400
take yours out?
Like, yeah, you know, the only

1095
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:38,280
fair thing to do is let you both
have your your memories here.

1096
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,680
So I've always kind of followed
that ever sense of like if it

1097
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,000
contradicts, put them both.
Yeah, that's awesome.

1098
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:46,080
That's a great story, too.
What a character, dude.

1099
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:47,680
What a character.
What do you think of the Dylan

1100
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:49,800
movie?
The what do you call it?

1101
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,240
The new one with Timothy.
Timothy Chamolais.

1102
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:58,160
A complete yeah.
Yeah, complete unknown.

1103
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:02,200
I liked it.
I thought, like, this is where

1104
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:06,120
as a music historian, yeah, I
have to, like, shut off a part

1105
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:07,160
of my brain.
Yeah.

1106
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:11,360
Because a dramatic film is not a
documentary.

1107
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:15,080
And, you know, I'm.
I'm the guy that's gonna like

1108
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:17,720
elbow my wife and be like, that
song didn't even come out till

1109
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:19,960
two years after this is supposed
to be, you know, And it's like,

1110
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:21,120
oh.
Really, there was that kind of

1111
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:23,720
inexistence, isn't it?
Yeah, I mean, you have stuff

1112
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:29,880
like that in any biopic, you
know, like, and so I I'm the guy

1113
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:31,560
that has to like, go in and
back, OK?

1114
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,800
Don't be annoying, like turn off
that part of your brain.

1115
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:39,120
Same with the Springsteen.
I didn't want to like, yeah.

1116
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,120
What'd you think of it?
I liked it.

1117
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:45,400
I liked it.
Ultimately, it's like a a pretty

1118
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:50,440
good film about mental health.
And if you go into it as I'm

1119
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:54,640
looking for a ironclad
documentary of Bruce

1120
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:56,000
Springsteen, you're going to be
disappointed.

1121
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,200
But if you're like, I'm
interested in the human story.

1122
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:00,400
It's good.
It's a good story.

1123
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:05,760
I thought that Timothy Chalamet,
his portrayal of Dylan was so

1124
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,120
good.
I thought it was incredible.

1125
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:12,800
So I thought even the hand thing
and the little nuances he got

1126
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:17,400
were very were very solid.
There's a scene where he goes.

1127
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:21,280
I think he's gone to visit Joan
Baez in some hotel room, and

1128
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:23,560
there's a scene where he's
standing in the doorway and the

1129
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:25,880
light is behind him so that he's
like a silhouette.

1130
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:31,080
And I was like, this guy, the
way he's holding himself has a

1131
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:33,160
silhouette is exactly like
Dylan.

1132
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:34,440
It's unbelievable.
Yeah.

1133
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,240
So I thought that his portrayal
was great.

1134
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:40,840
And I thought Jeremy Allen White
did a good job as Bruce, too.

1135
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:45,080
It's just that I had seen too
much of the bear to ever, like,

1136
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:48,280
forget that it was him.
Yeah, You know, he didn't get

1137
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,320
lost in being in Springsteen.
You know, I didn't, I didn't

1138
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:53,040
watch The Bear yet, so I don't
have that problem.

1139
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,640
I'll make sure to watch from
nowhere first.

1140
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:58,840
Yeah, that was that.
That's been a secret ambitious

1141
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:04,160
ambition of mine is to write us.
I've worked for for years, a

1142
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:06,440
little bit at a time on a
Springsteen script.

1143
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,000
Because I, I mean, I love his
story, man.

1144
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:13,720
I love the story of the kid.
I didn't have anything.

1145
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:20,360
And then, you know, and just the
one track focus on, you know, on

1146
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:22,800
just performing and just
bringing it to life.

1147
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:27,200
And you can see like in every
single performance, it was a, it

1148
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:29,880
was like a complete expression
of mental.

1149
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:32,120
It was like a full emotional
roller coaster every single

1150
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:34,800
show, you know, I mean, you're
crying when he's talking about

1151
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,560
his dad and he's an incredible
storyteller and he takes his

1152
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:40,840
time and the tempo changes so
dramatically, you know, like

1153
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:42,800
even within the songs was so
much fun.

1154
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:46,480
And hearing little stories like
they used to open for like The

1155
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,800
Allman Brothers or, you know,
something like that, always also

1156
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:53,160
fun, fun tidbits that you know
to come across.

1157
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:57,120
Yeah, for sure.
And then, you know, I loved his

1158
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:00,000
one man show where he got up and
like admitted to all the self

1159
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:03,160
mythologizing that he never did
and like, you still kind of love

1160
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:05,280
him for it anyway.
You know, it's like, is

1161
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:07,600
something about him?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Cuz he's

1162
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:09,360
honest, he's honest and he's
frank.

1163
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:11,720
And I think that there's it's
funny, I had AI had a poetry

1164
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:15,440
teacher from the same, you know,
from Elizabeth, NJ that also had

1165
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:21,240
that same kind of like blue
collar background with just like

1166
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:26,600
this incredible descriptive
poetry for the plainness and

1167
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:30,200
ruggedness and, you know,
weariness of life that and with

1168
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:32,760
that humor, you know, like just
really like there's something

1169
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:34,720
about that.
I think that like jersey grind

1170
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:37,280
from that time that was really
that lent itself to that kind of

1171
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:38,840
creativity.
Really cool.

1172
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:40,480
Yeah.
And I also believe just from

1173
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:44,680
like, you know, being a music
nerd, that there are people like

1174
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:51,840
Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan,
Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell, these

1175
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:57,360
people are just chosen.
And they are, they get to be the

1176
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:01,520
recipients of some kind of
cosmic flow.

1177
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:07,320
Yeah, That they can't help.
I think Willie Nelson, I will

1178
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:12,680
put him in that category.
And no matter how hard somebody

1179
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:16,720
sets out to work to try to
become like that, you can seek

1180
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:20,440
inspiration from these people,
but you can't become those

1181
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:23,960
people unless you were chosen
like I think, you know, and I

1182
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:26,400
think like a Jesse Wells to come
back to somebody that we were

1183
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:27,440
talking about that you think
he's.

1184
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,640
Like that I.
Think he's kind of like that,

1185
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,960
you know, and I think it's just
like, you know, it's really

1186
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:36,680
unfair for the people who like
Long to be that so badly.

1187
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:38,600
I just don't think you can make
yourself in debt.

1188
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,880
You can make yourself better.
Like writing songs and recording

1189
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,400
songs and playing an instrument.
There is undoubtedly

1190
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:49,720
craftsmanship involved.
And if somebody has that spark

1191
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:52,560
and they never hone it, they
don't work on it, then it's

1192
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:54,480
never going to go anywhere but
you.

1193
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:56,840
You have to if you're going to
there's.

1194
01:06:57,280 --> 01:06:58,680
Something deep you guys tap
into?

1195
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:03,160
Yeah, if you're really going to
like, work on that craft and

1196
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:05,520
become the greatest, you also
got to just be one of those

1197
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:10,800
chosen people that, you know,
and I think that the true icons,

1198
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:13,480
the Paul Mccartneys of the
world, you know, there's just

1199
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:16,560
something, there's some
spiritual reality that I don't

1200
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:20,520
claim to understand.
That just is and yeah, you know,

1201
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:23,800
I don't think somebody can will
themselves into being that and.

1202
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:26,560
You know what's interesting, I
even think that it could strike

1203
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,680
you for longer or shorter
periods of time because yeah,

1204
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:31,840
you know, I mean, I've like,
there's a great book I read

1205
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,560
called Astral Weeks about 68
Boston.

1206
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:38,080
That's how I actually knew about
the Jim James Brown comment

1207
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,720
earlier.
But it was about, you know, and

1208
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:44,480
about Van Morrison making Astral
Weeks and you know, and by his,

1209
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:46,840
you know, and like, or you have
I took my wife a couple years

1210
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:51,040
ago to see John Fogerty.
I mean, Creedence had a million

1211
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,880
hits in two years.
And then, you know, and then it

1212
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:58,000
kind of you got the, you know,
taking the ballpark sauce, you

1213
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:00,760
know, but you know, but like
there's certain people that they

1214
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:02,920
kind of like have you see
flashes of it for a couple of

1215
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:05,440
years and then, you know, a
couple of albums and it just

1216
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:09,360
causes Nash and young 11 magic
album, you know, 1 1/2 or

1217
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:11,000
meatloaf.
So it's cool.

1218
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:13,880
It's really fascinating.
Yeah, there's a window for some

1219
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:16,240
people.
And ultimately, I think maybe

1220
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:20,319
those are the people who, you
know, you can trust that with a

1221
01:08:20,319 --> 01:08:24,720
Neil Young or Bob Dylan or Bruce
Springsteen that have just been

1222
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:27,240
doing it at a high level for
decades and decades and decades.

1223
01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:30,600
And those are the ones that I
think are the chosen ones.

1224
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:33,240
And I think John Fogerty is
amazing.

1225
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:37,160
He's a genius.
And, you know, there's certain

1226
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:38,760
artists.
But when when there's that

1227
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:43,200
window, yeah.
I mean, you got to appreciate

1228
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:45,680
the window for what it is.
It's like, oh, it's, it's

1229
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:50,960
incredibly fruitful, but there's
very few artists and you.

1230
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:53,800
Like looking at my back door and
then never being able to do it

1231
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:56,200
again and you'll be like what
the hell I don't understand

1232
01:08:56,960 --> 01:08:59,399
before you go.
But I mean, I think what's even

1233
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:03,640
more crazy than that is like,
how do I, how am I still

1234
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:05,920
interested to hear what Bruce
Springsteen's next album is

1235
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:07,920
gonna be?
Yeah, that's even more

1236
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:12,319
remarkable that that there are
people where the window like

1237
01:09:12,319 --> 01:09:14,080
never closes.
There's very few, you know.

1238
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:17,279
What do you think of his last
few albums Chasing Wild Horses

1239
01:09:17,279 --> 01:09:20,720
and and then the soul one?
The Soul Cover 1.

1240
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:23,680
The soul cover one didn't
interest me very much.

1241
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:27,120
I'm like, you're not going to
improve on these, you know?

1242
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:31,399
But all of, I mean, I love all
of his records.

1243
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:34,359
You know my favorite Bruce is
acoustic Bruce, which is

1244
01:09:34,359 --> 01:09:35,800
probably not.
The most sure.

1245
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:40,600
You know, popular thing in the
world, but, and Nebraska is my

1246
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:44,319
favorite Bruce album goes to Tom
Jode is up there as well.

1247
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:48,439
You know, I've seen Bruce
perform just him and an acoustic

1248
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:50,960
guitar, which is my favorite
way, yeah, to see him.

1249
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:53,240
There's only a couple of he only
did a couple of those tours,

1250
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:55,320
right?
Like the late 90s, early 2000s.

1251
01:09:56,000 --> 01:10:00,840
Yeah, I saw him in like 96 or 97
somewhere in there doing that

1252
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:08,480
small 2000 seat venue, you know,
all acoustic show because, I

1253
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:11,520
mean, and look, I just saw Bruce
on this last tour here, you

1254
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:14,520
know, in LA and I couldn't
believe how good it was.

1255
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:17,640
That was awesome.
The the energy, energy level.

1256
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:22,080
They came out and did they they
kicked out the show with open

1257
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:26,920
all night Nice and with like a
full horn section and the energy

1258
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,320
is off the charts.
I'm like, this guy is like well

1259
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,080
into his 70s.
Yeah.

1260
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:33,360
And I could not have done that
show.

1261
01:10:33,440 --> 01:10:37,320
Yeah, you know, and it went for
a course, you know, I had to get

1262
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:39,080
up and go pee.
How did Bruce not have to go

1263
01:10:39,080 --> 01:10:39,440
pee?
Sure.

1264
01:10:40,440 --> 01:10:44,400
You know this old?
Guy Yeah, I don't.

1265
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:49,520
Know but I mean so like I love
the electrifying energy of of

1266
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:52,640
the E street band, but my
favorite Bruce is is acoustic

1267
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:55,360
Bruce because he's a great
lyricist and you can really like

1268
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:59,320
marinate and I love when he you
know, does a song like born to

1269
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:02,120
run acoustic.
Yeah, those are great growing

1270
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:04,160
up.
Growing up is such a, is such A

1271
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:05,680
and he always has that story
there.

1272
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:11,240
I, I went, I had tickets.
I, I'm not exaggerating, I was

1273
01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:13,640
single.
I was an idiot and I didn't care

1274
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:17,160
about my I, I was saving money
at that point and I bought 2

1275
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:22,800
tickets to his Broadway show for
1000 bucks and, and I couldn't

1276
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:25,520
make it.
I work with my dad and I had to

1277
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:27,440
go and, and we had to go on a
work trip.

1278
01:11:27,480 --> 01:11:29,480
And I was like, you know what?
Like this guy is giving me

1279
01:11:29,480 --> 01:11:30,680
everything in the freaking
world.

1280
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:33,360
I'll give the stupid tickets and
I'll go on the trip instead,

1281
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:35,280
right?
And so I give the tickets and

1282
01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:36,720
the entire night he's texting
me.

1283
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:39,120
This is the best thing I've ever
seen.

1284
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:40,480
And then the next day he calls
me.

1285
01:11:40,480 --> 01:11:42,160
He goes, I'm still high from
that show.

1286
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:45,080
That was incredible.
And I got to take my wife to.

1287
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:49,360
So we live in South Florida.
He was playing in Orlando in

1288
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:52,160
Tampa to open the first tour
since before COVID.

1289
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:56,320
And, and so we went to that show
and like 2 days later he was

1290
01:11:56,320 --> 01:11:57,800
playing Orlando and it was so
great.

1291
01:11:57,800 --> 01:11:59,920
I was like, I know you don't
have to come if you don't want

1292
01:11:59,920 --> 01:12:01,240
to come.
I'm going to Orlando.

1293
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:03,200
I'm going to Orlando today.
I'll come back tonight, you

1294
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:05,000
know, but like I got, I got to
catch that show.

1295
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:10,200
It's too good to miss out.
Anyway, Scott, I really

1296
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:13,280
appreciate the time.
This is this is so much fun and

1297
01:12:13,280 --> 01:12:16,560
you are a wealth of fun and cool
information.

1298
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:21,160
So thank you so much for the
time and for the great stories

1299
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:24,400
and this is really great.
I hope to do this again.

1300
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:26,440
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks for having.

1301
01:12:26,440 --> 01:12:28,560
Me find your work in case anyone
wants to look you up.

1302
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:35,680
You can go to scottbbomar.com,
That's Scott just like you think

1303
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:40,640
B and then Bomar, BOMAR, Scott,
B bomar.com.

1304
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:45,320
That's my online home for all
the various things I do,

1305
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:48,040
including my song craft
Spotlight and songwriters

1306
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:50,040
podcast.
But that's where you can find

1307
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:54,520
all my books and some articles
and, you know, find out more

1308
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:59,760
about how to read some of the
music nerd stuff that I love to

1309
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,640
write.
And don't go to scottbomar.com

1310
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:04,240
because there's another guy
named Scott Bomar.

1311
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:07,720
Got to be Scott B Bomar.
I listened to your episode with

1312
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:11,440
Sean Levy.
There's two Sean, 2 Sean Levy's.

1313
01:13:11,440 --> 01:13:14,840
There's also 2 Scott Bomars and
the other Scott Bomar, who is a

1314
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:18,320
great guy and super nice.
He lives in Memphis, but he

1315
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:20,600
scores films.
Oh.

1316
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:22,000
Sweet.
Maybe I'll talk to him.

1317
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:23,800
I.
Always know when?

1318
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:26,480
I always know when he's got a
new film coming out because I

1319
01:13:26,480 --> 01:13:30,200
start getting texts from people
and then he get when I have a

1320
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:34,120
new book come out, he he like
starts texting me going, oh, OK,

1321
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:37,040
so everybody's congratulating me
on your new book.

1322
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:40,480
And so anyway, he did the music
for Song Sung Blue, this Hugh

1323
01:13:40,480 --> 01:13:43,800
Jackman film that's coming out,
I think on Christmas Day.

1324
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:47,880
And so I've already, because I
live in LA, I've already had

1325
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:49,040
some people who've been to
screeners.

1326
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:52,120
They're like, hey man, Congrats.
I didn't know you, you know, but

1327
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:56,960
he did like hustle and flow and
like a bunch of a bunch of films

1328
01:13:56,960 --> 01:14:00,240
with Craig Brewer.
And so, yeah, I always know when

1329
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:02,840
he's got a new one because
people go, hey, I was watching

1330
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:07,320
such a such a mic wasn't me, but
yeah, so.

1331
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:10,040
Any press is good press, any
attention is good, right?

1332
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:11,480
Exactly.
Exactly.

1333
01:14:11,480 --> 01:14:13,040
Beautiful, Scott.
Thanks so much, man.

1334
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:14,240
I really appreciate it.
We'll talk.

1335
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:14,960
Soon.
Take care.

1336
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:15,400
Thank you.