Music Series 4: Kurt Ellenberger / Jazz / Improv and Play / Music Education / Music & Emotion

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and we're Live Doctor Kurt
Ellenberger.

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Welcome.
Thanks for coming on the show.

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I'm so happy to have you here.
Oh, thanks for having me.

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I'm, I got to say, I'm a bit
jealous being in Michigan where

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it's about 20° and you're in
sunny southern Florida, so.

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That's right.
That's right.

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That's right.
Well, we have a trade off and

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that's you're sitting in your
basement and no one in Florida

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has basements.
So yeah, that's true.

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Yeah.
Everything, everything has its

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trade-offs.
But I'll tell you, I probably

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spend four or five hours of
outdoors a day in the last,

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probably in the last year.
I make a very conscious effort

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to do so.
And I've really found that the

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way that I handle stress and my
productivity in general, I feel

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like has really just skyrocketed
since I've spent time.

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Yeah.
I mean, you know, I'm sure that

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every I'm sure that, I mean, we
all love it, right?

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There's a reason why, you know,
the second that most people

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retire and have an opportunity
to kind of now that they're

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flexible, you know, cut, you
know, head wherever they want,

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they tend to go towards the
warmth and towards the towards

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the heat.
But I'm really excited to to

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record with you.
Thank you so much for reaching

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out, coming on.
And I think that this is this is

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going to be really great.
Tell me a little bit about your

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who you are in some of your
experience please.

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Sure.
Well, I'm a I'm a musician, I'm

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a composer, pianist, but I'm
also an author.

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So I kind of do a lot of
different.

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I cover a lot of different
bases, partly out of necessity,

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but also because my interest has
always been kind of

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multidisciplinary.
So I haven't, I haven't really

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been someone who's in one box.
I'm kind of moving around

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between different, different
disciplines all the time.

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And I like it that way.
It just keeps me fed and fresh

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and engaged.
So yeah, I've I spent my life as

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a professional musician, made a
living doing that for many

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years, and then decided I wanted
to go back to school and got my

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masters and doctorate from
University of Texas at Austin.

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And then then started teaching
in the colleges.

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And I've been doing that for 31
years and I just retired.

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Were you in Texas most of that
time or were you in Michigan

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most of that time?
I was not in Michigan for any of

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that.
Actually, I did my undergrad in,

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I did my undergrad in Canada,
that's where I'm originally

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from.
And then I did my master's at

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UNC Northern Colorado in Greeley
and then I did my doctorate at

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UTUT Austin.
So coming back to Michigan was a

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decision.
I, I had a job in Alberta,

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Canada and it was so far from
family.

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My family is in, right across
from Detroit in Windsor.

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So I was looking for something
in this area and I knew this

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Grand Rapids area was so
beautiful.

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And I, I, I interviewed for the
job and I got the gig and that

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was 1999 and I've been here ever
since.

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Wow, amazing.
I have to I have to get out to

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that neck of the woods more
often.

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I, I, I, I love to travel.
I've, I've, I've driven through

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the country, across the country
a couple of times and have since

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fallen really in love with
America just just because, I

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mean, I grew up in New York and,
you know, you, you grow up in a

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particular place, especially a
place as significant as New York

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and as culturally relevant, I
guess.

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And you kind of think that
you're the center of everything

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and there's not much else that
exists outside of you, you know,

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and, and then you and you and
you walk a couple of steps

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outside.
And you guys, how many

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incredible things there are
around and how many wonderful

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different aspects of the country
that there are that you just

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have no idea about.
And I know that Michigan and and

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you're just a few places that
you mentioned Colorado, Texas

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and Michigan is really you got
quite a diverse slice of America

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over there.
Absolutely, yeah.

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And this area, West Michigan in
particular, is just beautiful,

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just forest, rivers, lakes, and
it's kind of hilly.

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And then you get to the Big Lake
MI, which is just, you know, 15

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miles from where I live.
So it's it's really nice.

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Yeah, yeah.
So tell me.

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So I would love to find out
because I, I'm really curious.

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I think one of the underlying
themes that have subconsciously

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come up from my podcasts are
people that have passions that

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find a way to make their
passions their lives.

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And because there's a lot of
people like myself included,

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that spend a lot of their life,
their lives balancing work and

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passion and the rest of their
lives.

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And then there are people like
yourself that would have that

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would take a passion like music
and actually pay the bills with

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it and actually make a career
and a life out of it and

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actually get to the level where
you are, you know, playing with

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some of the some of the greats
and traveling around and doing

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this on the, on the, you know,
the highest level that people

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really can play music.
So how did you kind of how'd you

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get there?
How'd you how'd you end up from

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point A to point B and what did
it take from you to be able to

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get there?
Well, it really started.

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I mean, I started music lessons
when I was a kid.

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It was just mandatory in our
household.

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We were a singing household.
My dad especially, we just sang

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all the time.
We sang canons, we sang folk

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songs, We sang, you know,
everything, every day.

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It was just singing, singing,
singing.

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So much so that when I when I
got to meet other kids in the

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neighborhood, I thought, that's
weird.

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They don't sing together.
So music was a big part of our

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lives growing up.
And, and I was, I kind of

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resented having to do lessons
and practice for an hour a day

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and all that stuff like like
most kids do.

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But when I was about 12 or 13, I
heard a couple of pieces of

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music.
I heard whole Planets and I

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heard Duke Ellington and I was
just lit up.

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I just, from that point on, I
just, I had to know what this

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was and where this music came
from and why it appealed to me

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so much.
And from that point on, I

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started practicing, much to the
chagrin of my, my sister and

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parents.
Sometimes I started practicing

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3-4 hours a day, every day.
So by the time I was 16, I was

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pretty good.
And I was by that point, I was

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working in, in Detroit, you
know, doing various stuff with

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big bands, with theater stuff,
you know, just kind of a working

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gigging musician.
But I was the little kid.

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I was 1617 years old.
So it just kind of took off from

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there.
And, and then I just kept doing

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that up up until it was about my
late 20s when I thought maybe at

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27 or so when I thought, I'm not
sure if I can see myself doing

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this same kind of lifestyle when
I'm 40.

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It just, it was, you know, the
music lifestyle is weird.

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You're, you're working when
everyone else is relaxing.

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And then during the day you're
sleeping.

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And then when you, you're
relaxing, everyone else is

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working.
So you're kind of out of sync

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with life in general, you know,
so, so that's when I decided to,

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to go back to school.
I, I always had kind of a, an

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academic bent and I wanted to
kind of flex that muscle a

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little bit and, and that, that's
kind of how it happened.

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Well, before we get to the next
stuff, because there's a lot

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that you already mentioned to
the story, I want to just ask

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you a little bit about for the
music career in particular.

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First of all, I love that you
grew up in the house with music

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like that.
One of the things that I've been

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thinking about, because I have a
three-year old and a nine month

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old is, is how I'm going to what
the best way to instill what I

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feel are the best values into
them.

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And one of the things that I've
been either reading about, you

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know, from educational books or
talking to other, you know,

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parents about, one of the things
that they mention is how

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important it is to you really
show the kids what you're

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passionate about.
And you can't really fake

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enthusiasm.
And so when somewhat, you know,

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a kid is growing up in a
household that is, that spends

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so much time singing and
wholeheartedly and really just

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loving it and enjoying it, and
it just kind of gets into your

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bones.
But on the other hand, and what

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I did notice this, the pretty
strict contrast, the practicing

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where you felt like you were
kind of being pushed into that

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did not really speak to you
until you found music that you

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yourself wanted to practice and
play.

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Yes, exactly.
And then it was just a then it

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was just like a tornado.
I knew that's what I'm gonna do.

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And I just, you know, my dad
worked full time job plus he did

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part time job.
And I thought, man, if that guy

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can, if he can work 14 hours a
day, I can practice 4 hours a

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day or five hours a day or six
hours a day.

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So that's kind of what I did.
I took my inspiration from that

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and it worked out really well
for me.

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And as far as genres go, so Duke
Ellington, of course, is, is,

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you know, one of the names
synonymous with jazz, I suppose

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the my first exposure to his
work was in Community College.

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I went for a semester.
I was a terrible high school

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student and prior to going to
Binghamton University, which I

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don't know if you're familiar
with, I, I went to Community

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College for a semester to get
the credits and transfer in and

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I was introduced to Duke
Ellington Nutcracker, the jazz

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version of The Nutcracker.
And it blew my mind.

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I mean, it was so cool and it
was so fun.

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And what some of the fun the
some of the more creative

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aspects of it that really spoke
to me were the fact that were

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the names that Duke would give
the songs of his, I guess his

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his variation of them.
You kind of have his own

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nicknames like peanut Brittle
Brigade or something like that.

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And always, and we could kind of
talk about this a little bit

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more a bit down the line, but
that, that when you even if

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you're playing the same kind of
song, but the way the, the

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arrangement changes and the, the
instruments you're using and

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the, and the pace changes, it
creates different visions and a

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different musical experience
completely.

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So there must have been
something about jazz or

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something about Duke Ellington
that spoke to you as an 1112

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year old, right?
Definitely.

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And I think what it is for me is
harmony.

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I, I just, I heard those rich
harmonies and they, I was just

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fascinated by it.
Same thing with the Holtz that

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the planet, you know, that, that
his, that piece is kind of has

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more modal music in it and, but
really rich, thick harmonies.

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And I think that's, that's what
always grabs me in in any style

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really, is if there's if there's
rich harmony in it, I'm in.

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So when you say harmony, and for
you know anyone that's listening

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sake that is, that's trying to
understand.

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Harmonies generally are
associated with singing.

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There could be harmonies between
instruments as well though,

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right?
Or instrument and a voice.

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Yeah, well, harmony, what I'm
referring to there is kind of

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like the, the, the makeup of the
chords.

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How how big are they?
So is it, you know, most pop

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music is just straight major
chords, minor chords.

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Well, what I heard in jazz and
in holes was.

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I heard these really rich
harmonies with more dissonances

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in them, and I was just really
curious about what is that?

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So for me, it was a question of
I wanna know what that is.

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I wanna write music like that,
I'm hearing things like that and

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and that's what kind of set me
off on this on this journey.

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And was your ear trained enough
at that point to recognize that

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that's what what captured you or
you only realized that later at

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that point there's.
Yeah, I realized that later.

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Yeah.
I mean, I had a pretty good,

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pretty good ear because we sang
so much that I realized a lot of

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other kids didn't have that.
A lot of the other musicians

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that I knew didn't really have
that.

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But I, I wasn't aware of what it
was.

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It to me, it was like a, a
gigantic mystery.

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It's like, where do these sounds
come from?

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And that that just really pulled
me in.

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And it still pulls me in today
when I, when I hear those kind

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of harmonies, I'm, I'm still
just transported into kind of a,

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you know, kind of a different
world, which is what music does

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00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,040
to us, right?
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

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00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,440
I and it's funny because I, I
actually I think I prefer as far

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as my prep, my taste goes, I
prefer the piano to the guitar,

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00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,160
even though I play the guitar
and most of the music I listen

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00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,120
to is generally guitar centric
because I'm trying to I guess

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00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,360
for better, for worse.
The Ave. in which I'm learning

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music and learning the theory is
through a guitar.

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00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,760
And I know that a piano
typically is a much better

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instrument to, to kind of learn
music theory and to process and

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00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:50,560
to understand it.
But one thing that I that, you

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00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,600
know, just a similar note to
what you were experiencing, I'm

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a big fan of, let's say Jerry
Garcia of the Grateful Dead.

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00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,720
And I'll be listening to his
solos and I'll be and, and, and

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00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,440
while he's playing, I'll close
my eyes and try to imagine his

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00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,480
fingers on the fret on the fret
board, making the, making the

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00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,080
sounds that are coming out at me
and trying to figure out how,

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00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,480
how is he doing that?
And, and is there a way for me

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00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,800
to able to do that?
I know a lot of people have kind

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00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,720
of, you know, a lot of musicians
have spoken historic, you know,

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00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,480
you know, about playing back
their records and trying to, you

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00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,040
know, play by ear and learn
exactly the riffs or whatever

248
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:25,800
they're trying to play.
Is that the way that you would

249
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,480
practice or would you be a
little bit more technical about

250
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:30,760
that, about the way that you
broke it down?

251
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,640
Well, at first I just studied
with people, you know, I started

252
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,600
with some of the great players
in Detroit like Marcus Belgrave

253
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,880
and Matt Matt Michaels.
And then later on, as I was, I

254
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,640
was already playing
professionally and I always felt

255
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,520
like there's just something
missing in my playing.

256
00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:55,160
And I, I played a concert and
this was in Alberta and there

257
00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,000
was a bassist there from Toronto
who I knew.

258
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,680
And he said to me, Kurt, you got
to start transcribing.

259
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,360
And I said, well, I've done a
little bit, but he says, no, you

260
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,920
got to do a lot.
And so I went home and just

261
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,120
started transcribing like crazy.
And then and.

262
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:12,440
What's that one that doesn't
know?

263
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:18,040
So that is so you put a record
on and you start listening to

264
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,160
somebody's solo and you start,
you write it out and then you

265
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,640
then you learn it and you try to
sound just like that person.

266
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,720
And from that you get their
sense of time, their sense of

267
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,560
accents, rhythmic placement.
You also figure out what kind of

268
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,280
scales and that they're using
over various chords.

269
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,760
So that's really the best way to
learn to learn jazz.

270
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,120
You can do it by the book, but
the best way to do it is to just

271
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:51,120
get in there, start transcribing
and, and in doing so, you're,

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00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,600
you're also training your ears.
So as a jazz musician, you have

273
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,000
to know, oh, the sax player that
I'm playing with is using this

274
00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,600
scale.
I'm going to play these kind of

275
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,840
chords against it and you have
to be able to do that instantly

276
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,120
for it to for it to work.
So transcription is how is how

277
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,840
we do that.
It's you just cannot get away.

278
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,040
You know, you cannot become a
really good jazz musician, I

279
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,040
don't think without learning
from the great musicians in the

280
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,200
past and, and internalizing
their voices into you.

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00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,240
The problem then is how do you
now, now you can play and you

282
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,200
can sound like McCoy Tyner or
like, or like Bill Evans or

283
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,080
something, which is great.
But what do you sound like?

284
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,160
So that's a that's kind of a
crisis moment for a lot of jazz

285
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,800
musicians because they spend so
many years learning other styles

286
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,960
and then they're left with the
question, well, what's my style?

287
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:42,640
And you have to find your own
voice.

288
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,720
You have to use that stuff, but
have it not be derivative or

289
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,000
imitative.
Correct, Really interesting,

290
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:55,080
really, I mean, and the way, and
I guess the real life example of

291
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,280
the way that this manifests is
how popular covers are.

292
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,080
And you know, the generally the
feeling that you have a great

293
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,200
song book that you know, there's
certain songs that any, that any

294
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,200
given night, any, any musician
can play or would play and they

295
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,080
would play with their own flair
and personality to it.

296
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,240
I used to love the Springsteen
covers, for example of the old

297
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,080
Roxette songs.
And he would sing, for example,

298
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,880
there's a song and then she
kissed me and it's and, and you

299
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,680
listen to the original version.
It's all cheesy.

300
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,360
It's got the tambourines and,
you know, and then, and then,

301
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,320
and then Springsteen comes out
with his, with his rock version

302
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,080
of it and, you know, heavy on
the keys and heavy on the, on

303
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,360
the key and everyone kind of
gets thrown solos and, and all

304
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,320
of a sudden this song that was
that was his influence and, and

305
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,360
he had to learn how to play
really, you know, transcribe it,

306
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,880
like you said, note for note,
but then would take his own

307
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,280
flair and, and actually convert
it into Springsteen's voice of

308
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,680
the of the rocks that's playing,
you know, that song.

309
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,840
Yeah.
And really, that's how all the,

310
00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,440
the, or most of the pop
musicians work too, right?

311
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,680
The Beatles learned all of those
50s tunes.

312
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,960
They learned the Buddy Holly.
They learned, you know, Little

313
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:08,800
Richard.
They they they learned all those

314
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,240
tunes.
So from that, they got their

315
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,240
chords.
And then when they started

316
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,839
writing their own stuff, the
beginning, the beginning of The

317
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:18,400
Beatles, it's using two or three
chords, just like what they did,

318
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,200
just like what they learned from
from those other bands.

319
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,240
Bill Haley, Buddy Holly, Yeah,
all that stuff.

320
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,520
But then they take it a step
further and start expanding

321
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,240
their vocabulary once George
Martin comes into the picture,

322
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:36,480
who, of course, was a classical
conductor, pianist who brought

323
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,400
all that richness of classical
music to them.

324
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,720
So you that's how all the bands
learned.

325
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,840
They're copying these other
bands.

326
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,320
And then at some point they
start writing their own tunes

327
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,360
using those materials and
hopefully they have their own

328
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:51,400
sound.
Sure, sure.

329
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,320
Yeah, it goes and it goes
directly I think with my with at

330
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,720
least my working definition of
creativity, which is basically

331
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:03,520
an individual's associations.
So if I say, for example, what

332
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,880
do you think of when you hear
this going down the road feeling

333
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:10,280
bad and both of us know, you
know, may know that song or both

334
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,840
of us may listen to that song at
the same time and walk away with

335
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:19,440
very different visuals or
associations or have it

336
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,400
associated with different
completely different

337
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:27,240
experiences.
And so and So what I guess all

338
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,960
these people are doing what
really that you, the more I

339
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,160
think everyone should really do
is make yourself familiar with a

340
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:38,040
lot of different types of music.
Because even if I listen to it

341
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,400
and you listen to it and 10
other people listen to it, we're

342
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,360
all going to walk away having
heard something else about it.

343
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,440
And our associations that
they're going to be different.

344
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,080
And we and if we ever to make
our own twist on it, it would

345
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,360
sound unique in 10 different
ways, I imagine.

346
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,560
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's really a

347
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:58,640
fascinating question is why?
Why do as the same music elicits

348
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,840
such a different reaction and
different people?

349
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,640
So, So for myself, I, I really
love probably my favorite jazz

350
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,760
pianist is Bill Evans.
And so I, I listened to him a

351
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,560
lot.
I was totally enamoured with

352
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,040
him.
And I thought, well, all jazz

353
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,960
musicians love Bill Evans.
And when I, I kind of branched

354
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,160
out and got out of my little
circle in Detroit, I realized

355
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,840
that a lot of people were that I
don't know, he's, he's too

356
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,880
melancholy, he's too depressing.
He's too this or he's too that

357
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,080
or it just doesn't swing.
And I thought, wait a minute, I

358
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,640
don't hear melancholy at all.
So what is?

359
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:32,600
Yeah, yeah.
Like.

360
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,480
Music that you love, you know?
Yeah, How does that work?

361
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,640
Right.
So, and, and they're being

362
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,440
honest about it.
They weren't, this wasn't being

363
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,560
petty or something.
But there were also stuff that

364
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,080
other people were listening to
that I thought that just doesn't

365
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,440
reach me.
So there's something really

366
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,800
powerful, I think something
psychological that's contained

367
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,160
in the music that maps on to you
as the listener.

368
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,200
And then if you, you have a
sympathetic vibration with it,

369
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:01,640
you're into that music.
If you don't, then, then you

370
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,480
don't, right.
I, I think that's the only

371
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,320
explanation for that is why
there can be such different

372
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,120
reactions to, to the same music.
So I'm sure there's been many

373
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:13,680
times you've found a band that
you love that maybe is indie or

374
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,240
that no one knows about.
And you bring it to your friends

375
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,720
or your wife or, and they're
like, I don't like this and you

376
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,280
love it, right?
I, I mean, it's just, it's a

377
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,480
weird thing how, how our, how
our psychology, our personality

378
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,240
is reflected in the music that
we listen to.

379
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,200
Definitely, definitely.
Another thing I've also noticed

380
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:39,360
I think is our ability to
discern the nuance of music also

381
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:42,960
depends on how familiar the
music sounds to or there's at

382
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,680
least the setting or the genre
the general tone of the music

383
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,120
sounds to us.
I did an experiment of my high

384
00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:51,760
school class last year who hate
all good music, unfortunately,

385
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:57,440
and, and I'm just kidding, but
they, you know, I showed, I

386
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,880
showed them the Springsteen song
Badlands.

387
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,320
And for a couple of reasons for
the lyrics, I wanted to show

388
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,760
them the example of a song that
was kind of hopeful and, and

389
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,360
challenging and hard at the same
time.

390
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,440
And the other thing I wanted to
see was I showed them we played

391
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,240
the song once a day for five
days from, you know, Monday

392
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,080
through Thursday.
And I asked them just throughout

393
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,720
the days to point out what
they've noticed in the music,

394
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,880
whether it could be lyrics,
whether it was a particular

395
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,200
drum, drum roll or guitar riff
or piano riff or anything like

396
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,680
that.
And as the days went on, the

397
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,200
descriptions became a lot more
nuanced and, and they started to

398
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,120
pick up a lot more in the music,
whether it was lyrically or

399
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:43,080
whether it was an actual music
itself or even the melody as a

400
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:47,200
whole.
They started to notice more as

401
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,560
they became more familiar with
it.

402
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,160
And then I would show them
subsequent songs that had a

403
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:56,160
similar kind of makeup as far as
similar DNA as far as music was

404
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,560
concerned.
And they had.

405
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,560
They were able to almost
immediately start to discern a

406
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,480
lot of cool differences that I
don't think they would have been

407
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,920
familiar with a week earlier or
had been able to point out.

408
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,640
Yeah, it's that repetition
hearing, hearing something over

409
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,840
and over again, whether it's
good or it's bad.

410
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,280
You'll tend to, they've done
studies on this where they'll

411
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,680
people will just pick up on it
and it becomes they sort of

412
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,800
memorize it and then they then,
then they have an affinity for

413
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,240
it, even though they might not
have had that affinity the first

414
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,240
listening.
So it is weird how that how that

415
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,360
works.
And that's that's kind of

416
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:34,960
something that the jazz
musicians really built on in the

417
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,200
early years because what they
were doing was taking pop songs

418
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,480
and songs that were famous from
the Broadway songbook and using

419
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,400
them as vehicles for
improvisation.

420
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,880
So when people heard those those
tunes, they recognized, oh,

421
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,600
that's all the things you are.
I know that song.

422
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,600
So and so sings it.
It's a big hit.

423
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,200
So which jazz musicians today
don't have as easy of a time

424
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:00,520
with?
Although some of them like the

425
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,760
like The Bad Plus and Brad
Mehldau have been have been

426
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,520
covering pop tunes like that and
doing quite well with it.

427
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,640
Sure, sure, sure.
I actually, that's so I'm so

428
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,560
happy you brought up
improvisation into the

429
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,240
conversation now, because
improvisation at the moment, at

430
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,840
this particular junction of my
life is my favorite part of

431
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,440
listening to music.
And it could be so wonderful and

432
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,920
so terrible.
And it could be, it could be,

433
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,040
you know, some of the most
inspirational, wonderful music

434
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,480
you can hear all day and music
that makes me just want to RIP

435
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,080
my headphones out and, you know,
not listen to the artist ever

436
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,960
again.
And it happens with the best of

437
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:36,880
them.
It happens with the, you know,

438
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,160
it happens with Billy the Billy
Strings and the Grateful Deads

439
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,360
of the world.
And it happens with with myself

440
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:43,840
in my backyard whenever I'm just
fiddling around on my guitar.

441
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,720
Jazz is really the mother of
improvisational music.

442
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:54,280
And from my understanding at
least, and I know that as far as

443
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,960
you know, again, influences go,
the Grateful Dead had attributed

444
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,400
almost all their improvisational
influences to jazz musicians.

445
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,560
John Coltrane was enormously
influenced, was a huge influence

446
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,560
to Phil Lesch, I believe the
bass guitar player, and Jerry

447
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,920
Garcia was a bluegrass player,
but also had an affinity for

448
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:21,480
jazz.
And how we now as far as playing

449
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,960
music goes, there's getting
caught up in the music, which is

450
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,920
the improv, the actual getting
in the zone and kind of the the

451
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,280
the tension back and forth
between the musicians and the

452
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,760
playing.
And then there's the interaction

453
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:41,880
with the audience that are the
two big focuses I would say that

454
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,880
most musicians talk about.
As far as the performance goes,

455
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,160
there's actual music and then
there's the crowd and the people

456
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,280
that you're playing with.
How does that manifest in jazz,

457
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,040
or at least in your experience,
how you know?

458
00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,280
Was there one that was more in
dominant in your experience or

459
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,240
did you kind of switch off
depending on the night?

460
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,920
How'd that work?
Well, I, I think in jazz, you

461
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,800
know, the audience is, is a
bigger part of it than it is in

462
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,560
classical music.
So because, because jazz came up

463
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,160
in clubs being played live in
front of relatively small groups

464
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,960
of, of people until it, you
know, until maybe the 60s when

465
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,480
they started playing really big
venues.

466
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,440
It I think because of that, the
audience has always been there

467
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,240
kind of cheering the players on.
So when you hear a great solo,

468
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,080
you know, you listen to some of
the, you know, Mile live Miles

469
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,960
Davis stuff in the 60s, There's
people yelling and screaming

470
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,680
when he plays a lick and someone
just goes, yeah.

471
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,040
So.
You know, so you do get that

472
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,720
encouragement and people clap
after your solo.

473
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,080
So you're getting you're getting
interaction with the audience.

474
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,160
They're there with you and
they're saying, Hey, we're

475
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,000
following your solo.
That was great and we're going

476
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,600
to applaud you for it.
So that that doesn't really

477
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,800
happen in classical music until
the piece is over.

478
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:02,280
So it's a it's a different,
totally different thing in terms

479
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,680
of where that, you know, that
improvisation, how that works

480
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,040
with the other players.
That's, that's really the, the

481
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,360
trick of it, I guess, is to kind
of wipe your own ego out and

482
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:17,400
just let the music do its thing.
It's it's so easy when, when

483
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,320
you've learned how to play, to
insert licks and to, you know,

484
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,800
to not communicate with the
other players and just do your

485
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,400
own thing.
So you have to go in there with

486
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,840
kind of your head bowed and say,
I'm, I'm, I'm here with the

487
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,000
music and that's it.
And and that's, you know, it is

488
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:41,000
kind of a zeny sort of thing
that you hear sports people

489
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,360
talking about as well as like
getting into that zone.

490
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,920
And what that zone is, is that
you're just reacting to the

491
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,960
music and you're not, you're not
controlling it, you're letting

492
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,560
it do its own thing.
So for me, for composing and for

493
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,440
for playing, I, I always think
about it as I just played

494
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,640
something.
What should the answer to that

495
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,360
be?
And so in, in that moment, I

496
00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:10,000
feel like the music is telling
me what to do rather than me

497
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,520
sort of forcing what I want to
do.

498
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,360
So if, if you can get into that,
that zone of saying, I need to

499
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,760
answer this just like in a
conversation, right?

500
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,640
You're not going to control a
conversation.

501
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,320
You're going to answer and then
the conversation's going to move

502
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,840
in this direction.
And if you try to force it to

503
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,000
stay somewhere or go somewhere
else, then the conversation

504
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,440
falls flat.
You have to have that openness

505
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,880
to say, Hey, there's things
happening here.

506
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,240
I'm going to react to them.
And in music, it's the same way,

507
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,280
except we're not using words.
We're using, you know, we're

508
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,000
using musical phrases and
rhythms to, to communicate with

509
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,160
each other.
So that's awesome.

510
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,760
That's awesome.
And I take Keith, if you could,

511
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,840
if you could, to kind of I want
to highlight this point or kind

512
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,200
of dive a little bit deeper into
it.

513
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,320
Taking back to a night where
you're, you know, 2122, you're

514
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,120
you're, you know, you're kind of
in the middle of your music

515
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:01,680
career and you're playing all
the time, I imagine.

516
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,480
And when you're playing and
you're in this club or you're

517
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,560
you're playing a concert and are
you, are you focused on the

518
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,200
musicians?
Are you focused on the room

519
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,400
around you and who's around you
and the people that are in the

520
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,400
front seat next to you?
Are you, where's your head while

521
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,640
you're playing the set?
And is there any point?

522
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,040
Do you kind of go back and
forth?

523
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,120
Can you walk me through kind of
what your perspective is as a

524
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:26,960
performer throughout the night?
Yeah, so I mean, when I'm doing

525
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,960
a concert, the focus is not on
the audience at all.

526
00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:33,720
Like I'm really not.
I don't want to see who's in the

527
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,320
front row.
It, you know, I, I'm totally

528
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,120
focused on getting on that
stage, hitting the piano,

529
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,320
getting a sound out of it,
determining, OK, what kind of

530
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,000
piano is it?
You know, I probably played it

531
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,720
before, but that's what I'm
looking for is how do I get the

532
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,040
sound out of my instrument?
And then how do I blend with the

533
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,960
other players?
So that's my main focus.

534
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,120
And when I, when I was
performing that, when I could do

535
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,120
that, I found that that was
really when I kind of got into

536
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,520
that zone.
So I'm again, when I'm out there

537
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:10,680
playing, I'm, I'm kind of trying
to be surprised by what's coming

538
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,400
out of the instrument.
And then whatever comes out

539
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,960
because, you know, when you're
improvising, you try things.

540
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,120
You just do, oh, let me try this
line.

541
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,080
See what that sounds like.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it

542
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,560
doesn't.
But whatever happens, you have

543
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,320
to answer yourself.
You have to play another phrase.

544
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,840
So for me that that point was
always forget about everything.

545
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,960
What does, what is the music
telling you?

546
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,960
What did that last phrase just
tell you that it wants to be

547
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,280
followed by?
So it's almost like you've

548
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,480
you've got a little baby there
that you're raising and it's the

549
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,160
bigger it gets, the more
personality it has and you have

550
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,520
to deal with it rather than you
forcing yourself on that

551
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,400
personality.
Right.

552
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,880
So you kind of start the flow
and then the flow takes you

553
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,520
along for the ride at a certain
point.

554
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,480
Yes.
And, and that, that's a really

555
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,240
exhilarating experience.
I think that's why people like

556
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,960
doing it so much.
And I, I do the same thing in

557
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,840
my, in my compositions where I,
I'm just sitting there.

558
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,040
I write a melody that I think is
nice and then I, I have to

559
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,480
answer it or I have to write in
a company to it.

560
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,600
And oh, that's not right.
Well, why isn't that right?

561
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,200
Well, because this melody is now
has its own personality and I

562
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,320
have to be true to it, not to,
you know, some pattern that I

563
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,920
think I can put in or some core
change that I think will work.

564
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:33,280
So I think it's having that
ability to say this is what's

565
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,800
going on.
How do I respond to it

566
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,680
authentically?
Yeah, that's yeah.

567
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,440
I think that's what you get in
all great music.

568
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,120
When that's happening you, you
get authenticity coming off the

569
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,080
stage.
Definitely you feel it.

570
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,960
You feel it for sure.
There there.

571
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,920
There have been times where
you're listening to a song and

572
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,400
everyone's again, you're
trading, you're trading off

573
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,880
looks with instruments and just
even where one pick drops off

574
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,800
and one and one instrument picks
up, just that transit from one

575
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:08,120
instrument to the next is could
be so seamless and so perfect.

576
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,240
It almost feels like it's the
same breath coming from the same

577
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,280
person, you know?
It's really incredible.

578
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,320
Yet when the musicians are In
Sync like that, which you, which

579
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,080
you find at the top level,
right, that's what you're,

580
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,240
that's what it feels like.
It feels like you're handing,

581
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,640
you're handing the ball to the
next player and, and the stream

582
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,000
is not broken, right?
It just, it just logically,

583
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,520
musically flows to the next, the
next person.

584
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,320
And that, I think that's part of
the magic of it.

585
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,760
You know, especially of the
group playing, you know, those

586
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,840
interactions between the
different musicians is so

587
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,800
interesting to listen to.
And what about musicians that

588
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,080
kind of pop in with one another?
I know that it happens very

589
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,440
frequently with jazz too, but
you know, you'll be playing in a

590
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,680
club or someone else to just pop
in or you're set, you're playing

591
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,480
with him for this set or that
for that set, or she's she's

592
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:58,320
joining on vocals for this set.
How what do you is that just

593
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,160
more of the same type of process
where you start off and you and

594
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,840
you kind of just see where,
where where you, you, everyone,

595
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,560
everyone agrees almost to kind
of hang on and go along for the

596
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,760
ride and see where the music
takes everyone.

597
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,960
Yeah, if if you throw, I mean,
so if you're playing a Symphony,

598
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,200
you're playing in a Symphony.
If the one of the second

599
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,960
violinists is is sick and they
bring someone else in, it

600
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,800
doesn't change what the
symphony's gonna sound like,

601
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,360
really, right?
In a jazz band, if you swap out

602
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,800
a drummer or a bass player or a
piano player or a horn player,

603
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,000
it's a different band.
And if you don't know the

604
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,880
player, you really have to say,
OK, we've got we've got kind of

605
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,120
you have to deal, deal with it
like you've kind of got a wild

606
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:45,160
animal there and OK, so how, how
is this person going to react

607
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,640
with us?
So the if someone sits in that

608
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,680
you don't know, then the first
couple of tunes is going to be

609
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,000
kind of feeling each other out
saying, OK, where what kind of

610
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,720
things did this person like to
play?

611
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,240
How do?
And that person is thinking,

612
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,440
well, how does the band react to
what I'm playing?

613
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,240
And then it starts to gel,
right?

614
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:03,960
Yeah.
So.

615
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,560
It'll probably take some time
for the set to really get

616
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,480
moving.
Yeah, it would take, it would

617
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:13,200
take 3 or 4 tunes before you
kind of got a baseline of OK, I

618
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,160
think I know where this player
is coming from and the player

619
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,840
now knows where you know what
this band is all about.

620
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,640
And then then you can start
taking chances before.

621
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,520
That.
You've got to kind of get to

622
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,440
know each other a little bit.
Definitely, definitely.

623
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,200
I went to a Grateful Dead cover
band with my dad this past

624
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,040
weekend and it was a, it was a
funk rock band, I guess.

625
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,440
And I recognized a couple of
musicians because they locate

626
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,960
around they, they, they kind of
rotate around the the scene and

627
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,440
play with different bands for
similar genres of music.

628
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,520
And then there was a saxophone
player that I hadn't seen as

629
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,720
part of the scene yet.
And you could see most of the

630
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:57,160
time he was trying to really
figure out where he where he fit

631
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,080
within the in the stage.
And he'd get there and he would

632
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,760
start and he wouldn't, he
wouldn't quite be able to slip

633
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,800
through the door, if you if you
know what I mean.

634
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,639
And then, and then there were
times as a set came along or as

635
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:13,880
a jam would go along where he
where.

636
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,800
And I guess it's almost like the
equivalent of like an underhand

637
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,920
pass.
Hey, here you go.

638
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,080
You take, you take the ball now
and you and you kind of, and you

639
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,960
kind of has it along to him.
Whereas once you like, if if

640
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,520
you're playing music the way
you're describing, it's more

641
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,199
like snagging the ball out of
the air.

642
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,159
The ball's up in the air and OK,
who's going to take it?

643
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:32,159
Boom, I got it.
Boom.

644
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:33,800
You got it, you know, and you
got to pass it along.

645
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,000
Yeah.
Yeah, it kind of works like a

646
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,760
conversation, too.
So if you show up at a party and

647
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,159
you see three or four people who
you know and they're having a

648
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:48,320
conversation, you can kind of
move up to them, kind of stand

649
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,400
there, kind of get in and then
wait, wait for an opening to,

650
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,760
you know, to say hello or
whatever.

651
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,040
But you don't barge in and start
talking, although some people do

652
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,200
that too, right?
And but you know, it breaks the

653
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,880
social contract a little bit.
And in, in jazz there there

654
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,360
definitely is that, that that
agreement that, hey, we're all

655
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,440
playing together.
We all have the freedom to do

656
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,480
whatever we want.
But that freedom comes with a

657
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,200
great deal of responsibility to
be sensitive to all of the other

658
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,720
voices around you.
And I think that's, again,

659
00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:23,200
that's that's one of the magical
parts of of jazz or any

660
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,960
improvisational music is you
have to have that awareness and

661
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,120
sensitivity to not constantly be
pushing yourself to know when

662
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,000
you need to be here and when
it's your, when it's your turn

663
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,280
to step forward and make your
statement.

664
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,920
Yeah, I've been.
I want to make one last point.

665
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:42,480
I want to ask you another
question real quick.

666
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,000
I was reading a book called I
heard there was a secret chord

667
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,920
by a gentleman, Daniel Leviton,
who's I think a neurologist or

668
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:53,760
and also a musician.
And one thing that he's also

669
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,200
talked about regarding jazz was
that there's also almost the

670
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,720
vocal improv.
And the example he gave was the

671
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:03,480
famous Ella Fitzgerald concert
in Germany where she was singing

672
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,080
Big Mac, the Knife and she
forgot the the words and managed

673
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,880
to scat an improv her way
through.

674
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,320
He said at a certain point, once
you have the rhythm and once you

675
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,640
have the beat and once you even
have the act like what you say,

676
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,080
there's more details, especially
with, with saying things out

677
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,640
loud, there's a certain rhythm
to the way that you talk.

678
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,760
But and so, so once you even
have that rhythm, you could fill

679
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,120
in the blanks with whatever you
want as long as it fits.

680
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,520
And he gave that, you know, he
gave Ella as a perfect example

681
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,440
of a vocal, A vocal
improvisationalist.

682
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,520
Yeah, absolutely.
And and then look at look at how

683
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,600
that became the, you know, the
basis for so much of the R&B

684
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:44,920
stuff.
Like James Brown.

685
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:50,720
He's not saying anything, or if
he is, the words don't matter at

686
00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:52,680
all.
It's the rhythm and the

687
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,800
inflection and the energy,
right?

688
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,680
It's yeah.
Yeah, yeah, It's incredible.

689
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,880
So how would you define jazz
music if you had to strip it

690
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,160
down to its roots?
And if someone were to say a

691
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,000
student walks into your class
and says I've heard the word

692
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,160
jazz, but I don't know what it
means, how do you what's a

693
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,080
one-on-one understanding of what
jazz is?

694
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,800
Oh boy, that's a, that's a,
that's a big question.

695
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,120
What I teach, what I've taught
my students, and I think what

696
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,400
they've come to realize when
I've taught jazz history is that

697
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:30,320
jazz really isn't a genre in the
way that, say, country music is

698
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,960
a genre or rock is a is a genre
because there are so many

699
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:39,040
different types of jazz that by
the time you get to now, it's

700
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,000
there's so there's so many
things going on.

701
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,880
You can't put your finger on one
thing and say, well, that's the

702
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,760
mainstream.
You could do that in the 20s and

703
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,120
30s and 40s and 50s to some
extent, 60s even a little bit.

704
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,040
But then it then it just starts
to to get too big and it also

705
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,640
spreads across the world.
So then you've got people in

706
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,000
Portugal playing jazz, but it
doesn't sound like American

707
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,840
jazz.
Is it still jazz?

708
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:05,960
Of course it is.
It's their jazz.

709
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,360
So what makes it?
What makes it that jazz?

710
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,280
Yeah.
So I think what it is, is really

711
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,680
jazz is an is an approach to
making music that's

712
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,880
collaborative, that's
improvisational, and that is

713
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,120
constantly morphing it.
It never accepts a perfect, oh,

714
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,560
we're done now.
It never writes it down and

715
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,880
says, OK, that's perfect.
It's always striving for that

716
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,400
next thing, which classical
music does to a certain degree

717
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,440
as well.
But it's written out, right.

718
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,840
So there, it's the
interpretation of what's already

719
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,040
written that is so, so
important.

720
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:41,880
But I think that's what it is
with jazz.

721
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,600
It's, it's an approach to music
making that is, as I said,

722
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,960
collaborative, improvisational
that doesn't require a certain

723
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,520
set of people like you.
You could have, you could have

724
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:58,000
an accordion, a violin and a
trumpet and they could be

725
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:03,520
playing jazz or you could have
a, a, a piano and a cello and a

726
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,800
trombone and they, they could be
playing jazz.

727
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,480
So it's this kind of amorphous
target that's always out there

728
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,240
just beyond reach and and
players across the world are

729
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:17,960
trying to reach that using a lot
of folk elements.

730
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,480
I would say that's a big part of
it too.

731
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,960
Jazz.
Jazz music relies on regional

732
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,800
folk flavors for its for its
sound.

733
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:28,600
Yeah.
And I bet that's where that

734
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,880
associative aspect of creativity
that we spoke about earlier

735
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,120
comes from.
The people that were, you know,

736
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,760
for example, the people that
grew up perhaps in the South

737
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,560
would be and have a different
type of musical cultural

738
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,120
influence as to the way that
they're going to play their jazz

739
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,560
as opposed to, again,
Portuguese, the Portuguese or

740
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:48,640
something like that.
Yeah.

741
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,960
Absolutely.
Even like take a look at in the

742
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,120
50s New York jazz versus West
Coast jazz.

743
00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:02,160
I mean, the, the West Coast jazz
had a, a cool easygoing, there's

744
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,760
no, you know, there's no traffic
out here.

745
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,560
There's, you know, where's the,
the New York jazz had that kind

746
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:13,000
of frenetic big city energy.
So it was already bifurcating

747
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,840
then regionally, which is really
cool.

748
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,960
So imagine then, if you if you
take the Jazz dodo bird and you

749
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,360
fly it to Italy.
Yeah.

750
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,400
OK.
In a couple of generations, it

751
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,760
doesn't look like the American
jazz anymore.

752
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,160
So that's been kind of a big
discussion is, you know,

753
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,240
European jazz or Japanese jazz
or I mean, it's all over the

754
00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:37,800
world.
And wherever it goes, it uses

755
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,080
that collaborative
improvisational approach and it

756
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:46,040
kind of goes into or utilizes
some of the cultural folk

757
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,600
elements of whatever region it's
in.

758
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,320
It's really cool.
Does that kind of progressive

759
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,040
perspective embody itself in the
types of people that play it?

760
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,880
Also, are the people that play
jazz typically open and warm and

761
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,280
welcoming in that kind of
capacity?

762
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,080
Personally, because I feel like
if your music has to, if your

763
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:11,720
music has to be so off the cuff
and improvisational, and you

764
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:14,000
have to be willing to, yeah, you
really have to listen.

765
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,360
You have to be able to be a
hearer.

766
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,440
A hearer or a listener does
that?

767
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,400
Does that usually translate over
to the table of people that play

768
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:19,840
it?
You think?

769
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,960
Boy, that's hard to say because
they're just like with like with

770
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,320
everything.
There are so many different

771
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,800
kinds of people playing this
music.

772
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,880
Some are some are very
introverted and quiet, but then

773
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,440
they speak with with their
instrument like, like a like a

774
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,040
Kenny Wheeler, for example.
Just the sweetest, sweetest man,

775
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:46,160
quiet, introverted, thoughtful.
But when he picked up his horn

776
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:51,600
lookout, all of a sudden there's
just this wild sounds coming out

777
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,560
of the flugelhorn or trumpet.
And then there are others that

778
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,760
are really, you know, kind of in
your face and brash and, you

779
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,480
know, really aggressive.
So I wouldn't say there's a

780
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:06,320
certain personality type there.
There's it's all over the place,

781
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,400
just like every everything else.
You gotcha.

782
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:10,440
I gotcha.
I gotcha.

783
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,800
Yeah, Yeah, it's really
interesting.

784
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,520
Let's talk a little bit about.
I want to, there's a couple more

785
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,920
things I want to get to for
sure, jazz theory, which I think

786
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,800
I'm going to need your help
breaking down in a very simple

787
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:24,920
level.
And I think the piano that you

788
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,440
have there is going to be very
simple a very useful to have to

789
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,600
break that down.
I also wanted to talk about

790
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,640
major and minor chords because I
have a friend of mine who's a

791
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,520
piano player.
Excuse me.

792
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,360
And he used to lament to me that
all the Jewish songs that we

793
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,440
sang growing up were all in
minor chords.

794
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,480
And he was upset about that.
And then I was listening to a

795
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,960
podcast the other day and, you
know, had nothing to do with

796
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,160
music, but the, the, the, the,
the person recording happened to

797
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,640
be a, a piano player and also
was complaining about the same

798
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:55,960
thing.
He said that there's something

799
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,840
is the Jewish music, you grow
up, it's all a minor, It's all

800
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,480
sad.
And then the Christmas music is

801
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,560
major and uplifting.
And.

802
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:04,520
And, you know, we talk a little
bit about that.

803
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,200
First of all, I didn't want to
actually ask your opinion

804
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,600
because I think that most Jewish
music that people associate with

805
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,840
Jewish music is really Eastern
European music.

806
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,000
Yeah.
And because that's where a lot

807
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,760
of it came from, Poland and
Germany.

808
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,920
And that in that part of the
world is it that it's Jewish

809
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,440
music that's mostly a minor.
Is that Eastern European music

810
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,400
that's mostly a minor key, Minor
keys?

811
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,880
And what's the difference
between minor and major?

812
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:29,480
Well, I think the further E you
go, the more modal the music

813
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,760
gets.
So it gets more minor and and

814
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:37,680
darker as you get into the folk
in the folk traditions, right?

815
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,760
The difference between major and
minor is just one note.

816
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,640
So you play a major chord and
you take the middle note, which

817
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,680
is an E I'm playing ACC major
chord and you move it down a

818
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,840
half a step to E flat.
And now?

819
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,080
OK, so I understood what you
just said, but I want to break

820
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:58,360
down what you just said real
quickly.

821
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,480
Oh, no, it doesn't.
So the C So when you said that

822
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,600
you're going to so the C A
chord, a chord is made-up of

823
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,200
several individual notes, right?
A chord is a minimum of three

824
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,200
notes.
Minimum of three notes 3.

825
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:12,160
Different notes.
Three different notes.

826
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,320
Yep.
So C would be composed of AC and

827
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,760
E and.
AG Yep.

828
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:20,240
AG OK, gotcha.
SO.

829
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,600
There's all three.
Gotcha.

830
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,240
And so for it to be major and
for it to be minor, what would

831
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:30,240
be the difference?
Now, so the major chord has an E

832
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:35,760
in it, which is 1234, half steps
up from the C OK.

833
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,320
The minor chord has an E flat in
it, which is only three half

834
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,280
steps up from the C So it's just
that changing that one note

835
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:48,120
takes us from a happy chord to,
you know, the minor chord is

836
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,800
generally associated with kind
of sadness, melancholy,

837
00:44:51,960 --> 00:45:08,320
introversion, tragedy.
So you go from to it's quite a

838
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,800
change, right?
Just changing that one note

839
00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:15,880
changes the mood entirely.
And that's been a big discussion

840
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,680
in music theory is where does
that note?

841
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,000
Why does that work?
Why does the minor chord work?

842
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,080
Because in terms of the harmonic
series, are you familiar with

843
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,520
what that is?
Break it down please, if you

844
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:29,320
don't mind.
Sure.

845
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,280
So if I play any, any sound
that's made is governed by

846
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,960
what's called the harmonic
series.

847
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:40,280
And what that means is that when
you play any note, it's not just

848
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,400
that note you're hearing, you're
hearing a bunch of notes that

849
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,320
are part of it that that we call
partials because they're a

850
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:52,160
partial part of that note.
And sure, those pitches are

851
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,240
really quite fascinating.
The pitches that are included

852
00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:59,320
there are very are fascinating
because they're directly linked

853
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,160
to the length of the string that
is needed to play that note.

854
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:09,040
So if I play AC and the next
note in the first note in the

855
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:16,480
harmonic series which is number
2 is the C above it and we call.

856
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,960
Them, and that's probably the
same note, but they sound, but

857
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:20,640
one's higher, one's lower.
Right.

858
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,000
But in reality, they're two
different notes.

859
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:28,880
We're just hearing the fact that
the C above, which is number 2

860
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,720
in the harmonic series, is in
the lower note already.

861
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:35,400
So when we play it, it's
reinforcing what's already

862
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,480
there.
And here's the freaky part of

863
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,000
it.
If the string length for the low

864
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:45,960
C is is, let's call it one, the
string length for the next C is

865
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,680
half of that.
It corresponds precisely to its

866
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:54,720
position in the harmonic series.
OK, I think I understand that.

867
00:46:55,040 --> 00:47:02,400
But in other words, so you have,
I'm sorry, so you have notes,

868
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:06,120
which is a compilation of
pitches to get.

869
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:10,400
They're composited of yes, a
bunch of pitches called

870
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,600
partials.
Yes, right.

871
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:17,280
And it's and so AC is made-up of
several different partials or

872
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,520
pitches.
It's made-up of dozens of

873
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,440
different pitches, dozens.
And, and here's the interesting

874
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:27,400
part is depending on how the
sound is, is produced, the, the

875
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,080
sound of the instrument produces
or accents different partials.

876
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,720
So OK, the trombones, for
example.

877
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:36,440
So think about, think about a
trombone, how rich that sound

878
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,520
is, and then think of a flute
and which is, which is much

879
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,280
thinner sound.
The reason they sound different

880
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,360
is because the trombone
emphasizes a lot of the odd

881
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,800
numbered partials, whereas the
flute emphasizes the even

882
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,480
numbered partials.
So.

883
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,280
Wow, interesting.
The, the, So the harmonic series

884
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,400
governs every sound that you
make because no matter what the

885
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,560
sound is, it's that it's like,
it's like gravity.

886
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,760
It's like saying, well, I'm
going to throw a ball up, it's

887
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,480
coming down.
The harmonic series is the same

888
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,280
way.
Every sound that is naturally

889
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,040
made is going to have those
partials in it.

890
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,680
And depending on how that sound
is made, they're going to

891
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,480
emphasize different ones of
those partials.

892
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:17,960
And that's what count.
That's why a trombone sounds

893
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,560
like a trombone.
That's why my voice sounds the

894
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,680
way it does.
That's why your voice does.

895
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:24,600
That's why a piano sounds the
way it does.

896
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,760
It's all governed by that
harmonic series.

897
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:32,880
So the freaky thing is each when
you go up the harmonic series

898
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,920
each note.
So the second note requires 1/2

899
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,480
the string length of the first
note.

900
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,440
And why would that be?
It's, that's just, that's just

901
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,840
how it is.
Yeah, it's it's.

902
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,680
That's just how it works.
Can you?

903
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,920
Can you notice it in the sound?
Have you played to the 2 notes

904
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:52,680
you'd be able to?
Would you be able to emphasize

905
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:53,280
that?
Yeah.

906
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,200
So if I play the two notes
together, so here's AC.

907
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,680
So we call those notes both C,
but in reality, they're

908
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,080
completely different pitches.
The reason, totally the reason

909
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,960
that we hear them as being a
higher or lower version of each

910
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,360
other is because their waveforms
are symmetrical.

911
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,120
So imagine a string length
that's just doing this.

912
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,320
And then if the half one comes
in, it's dividing that string

913
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,400
length in half.
So our ear computes that and

914
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,000
says, oh, that's a symmetrical
pattern.

915
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,400
It divides easily by two.
If I play something that

916
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,400
doesn't, if I play a, I'll play
like a dude, what's that going

917
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,920
to be like a well, kind of a
kind of a nine, but you'll get

918
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:43,760
the idea if I play this.
So what your ear is hearing

919
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,880
there is that.
It doesn't.

920
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:47,720
It's not those.
Those two waves are not

921
00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:49,640
symmetrical.
They don't line up.

922
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,840
So a way to think about this is
if I asked you to play or if I

923
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,200
asked you to take a 8 1/2 and 11
piece of paper and fold it in

924
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:58,680
half, easy.
Yeah.

925
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,880
If I ask you to fold it in
quarters, easy.

926
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,560
I mean eights, yeah, it gets,
you know, at some point the

927
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,800
paper gets hard to deal with.
But we can do that.

928
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:12,960
If I ask you to fold it in 11,
you can't do it right then we

929
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,320
need math.
So that's what the ear is

930
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,400
actually hearing when we hear
consonant sounds.

931
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:24,240
So the right the ear is hearing
the symmetry of those sounds.

932
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,520
And it also supplies when it's
hearing something that's that's

933
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,240
that's not symmetrical, that's
complicated asymmetrical, it's

934
00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:38,880
supplying your ear supplies the
answer, the closest answer of of

935
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,560
a multiple of 2 usually going
down.

936
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,760
Right, because we already know
it's the most predictable and

937
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:48,400
easiest.
Again, if you're going to cut it

938
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,960
in half, it's easy.
You could do it without

939
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:53,920
expending a lot of mental
effort.

940
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:57,360
It's not very hard to do.
So your brain will pick up the

941
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,800
fact that this feels like the
next place for this to go

942
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,840
because it's it's, it's already
they, they, they go together.

943
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,560
It's looking for that symmetry
and it has it has the ability to

944
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,080
supply the right note even
though you've not heard it.

945
00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:15,640
And that's that's what gives
music it's it's narrative.

946
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,400
Without that music wouldn't be
able to quote UN quote tell a

947
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,320
story, right?
It just.

948
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,560
And it's really hard to listen
to if if everything sounded

949
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:25,280
unfamiliar.
No.

950
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,120
Yeah.
Or like you're gonna computer,

951
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:28,440
it wouldn't be pleasant to
listen to.

952
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,880
Right, because you.
You you wouldn't be able to have

953
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,760
expectations with it.
Yeah.

954
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,360
So let me play you something and
I'll ask you what the next note

955
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,600
should be.
OK, so here we go.

956
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,360
Very good, you nailed it.
So the funny part is I didn't

957
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,560
play that note.
That was ACI knew it.

958
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,360
You knew it.
Your brain calculated from the

959
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,560
complicated stuff that I played
before.

960
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:15,080
Your brain said the closest
multiple of 2 is 1 down.

961
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,720
So I gave you what you wanted,
right?

962
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:19,960
You were expecting that note and
I gave it to you.

963
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,000
What if I didn't?
What if I did this?

964
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:40,840
Took you by surprise, right?
No.

965
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,200
That was a surprise, right?
That was wrong.

966
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,120
Yeah.
I felt wrong in my chest right

967
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:46,800
there.
It felt like I have not.

968
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,040
That was not what I was looking
for.

969
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,200
Yeah, I gave you the note, but I
changed the harmony under it.

970
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:56,800
So in that way you're taking on
a sound narrative, right?

971
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,640
You were expecting this, but
then the composer gave you

972
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,800
something else and.
Amazing.

973
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:05,480
Without that ability, music
couldn't have a narrative.

974
00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:10,200
Wow, wow.
So you know what it feels like

975
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,960
That feels like we're like, it
almost feels like how when you

976
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,080
start typing an e-mail and then
and then you start typing in

977
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,840
words and then and then your
e-mail guesses the rest of your

978
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,800
sentence for you.
Because like, it already knows

979
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,440
there's a certain amount of like
if you begin, I hope you're

980
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,440
doing, there's only a couple
other words that it could fill

981
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:27,200
in.
Yeah.

982
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:29,480
At the end of that, it'd be,
well, I hope you're doing.

983
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,280
That's it.
Like, well, or I hope you're

984
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,120
having a good day, you know, But
like, there'd be particular

985
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:37,840
phrases that only make sense.
Yes.

986
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,600
But I guess what you're saying
is that this seems to be also

987
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:46,800
wired in, or that our brain is
making the is is is

988
00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:51,320
understanding the story far
better than we consciously

989
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:53,640
realized.
Yes, it's, it's automatically

990
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,600
doing that mathematical
calculation.

991
00:53:55,720 --> 00:53:58,920
So think, think of the C's.
So here's where the C's fall in

992
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,360
the harmonic series.
So you play the first note, then

993
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,520
you go an octave up.
So that's number two.

994
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,960
Then you go an octave up from
there, and that's number four.

995
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,040
Then you go an octave up from
there, and it's #8 An octave up

996
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:18,680
from there, it's #16 So the C's
are the binary series, right?

997
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:22,400
So that's exactly what's
powering the computers that

998
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,960
we're using to have this
conversation, right?

999
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,680
That binary series sits at the
heart of, of computing.

1000
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,840
It also sits at the basis of
life itself.

1001
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:37,480
So when, when a sperm meets an
egg, it, it divides into two and

1002
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,840
then those twos divide into four
and then the four becomes 8 and

1003
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,880
so on.
So it's very mysterious that

1004
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,800
this map is built in there, that
the binary series is kind of

1005
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,320
hard wired into our brains like
that.

1006
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,600
And we can supply.
So when we have a, you know, an

1007
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:59,520
asymmetrical waveform, our brain
says, you know, if you go down

1008
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,560
to this note now you'll now
we'll be in symmetry.

1009
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:07,320
So it's like our brain is, is it
wants to have symmetry and order

1010
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,600
and it doesn't like the
asymmetry and and chaos and it

1011
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,160
does it automatically.
No matter you don't have a

1012
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,160
choice about this.
If you're listening to music,

1013
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,520
this is what's This is what's
moving you, whether you know it

1014
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,120
or not.
Wow, wow.

1015
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,040
Really, really cool.
Really crazy.

1016
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,760
It's freaky, isn't it?
Yeah, because it it gets to,

1017
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:30,680
it's not, you know, and it
shouldn't really be too much of

1018
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:37,520
a surprise to me because there's
traits that I feel are generally

1019
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,840
that go well with music.
And a lot of people are

1020
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:43,920
scientists or mathematicians
that are great, that are great

1021
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:52,320
musicians too.
And they it almost feels like

1022
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:58,640
music is mathematical, music is
technical, music is scientific

1023
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:05,840
in this sense that there really
is a there almost is like a

1024
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,920
object objectivity to what's
right or wrong about the way

1025
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:13,200
that music interacts with each
with one another the same way

1026
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,600
that numbers interact with one
another, or the same way that

1027
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,440
words interact or letters
interact with one another.

1028
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:24,480
There seems to be this inherent
set of rules that it's almost

1029
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,200
built into this.
It's almost It's scientific,

1030
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,360
isn't it?
Yeah, it absolutely is.

1031
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:32,520
I think you're hearing it right
there.

1032
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,680
The reason that you could sing
that note is not, it's not a

1033
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,720
cultural thing.
It's not like we've learned how

1034
00:56:39,720 --> 00:56:42,360
to do that.
That is hardwired into our

1035
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:48,400
brains to, to be able to predict
and expect a resolution to the,

1036
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,760
to the asymmetrical waveforms
that are being played.

1037
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,960
And again, that's, that's what
gives music it's narrative,

1038
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,360
narrative ability.
So here's another funny example.

1039
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,680
So when you're in your car and
someone, someone cuts you off,

1040
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:06,920
you hit the horn, right?
So you're, what you're doing is

1041
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,760
you're sending over a bunch of
complex waveforms that that

1042
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,200
person's that's going to annoy
the other driver, right?

1043
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,720
You don't, you don't send over a
major chord and say, please

1044
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:21,680
don't cut me off, right?
I mean, it's just funny how this

1045
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:26,560
is so embedded in in what we do,
but hardly anyone knows about

1046
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:28,240
this.
Even musicians don't know how

1047
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,880
this stuff works because no one
really talks about it.

1048
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,120
So crazy.
I'm sure that's why sirens were

1049
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:40,040
so effective too.
Wow, wow, so cool.

1050
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,520
Yeah, so cool.
You don't want the siren playing

1051
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,280
a Beethoven Sonata, right?
Right.

1052
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,480
You want something that's going
to kind of annoy and maybe

1053
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,360
frighten a little bit, and
that's what it's designed for.

1054
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:55,960
And what it's doing to achieve
that is using asymmetrical

1055
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,920
waveforms to to grab your
attention.

1056
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,480
And there's no solution for it
either, right?

1057
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,560
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Fascinating.

1058
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:06,760
Really cool.
It's really cool.

1059
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,440
It really is.
It's, it's incredible.

1060
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,040
I wonder if the people that
developed that were conscious of

1061
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,360
that or it was just a reflex,
like, hey, you know, we should

1062
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:20,320
take a really alarming sounding
noise or really upset, you know,

1063
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,040
something that really sets
people on edge whether they're

1064
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,640
familiar with this theory.
Either way, what can you tell

1065
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,320
me?
So, you know, we're actually

1066
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:30,400
going through your life a little
bit.

1067
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,680
And so you're mentioning that
you around 2728 years old, you

1068
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:36,400
decided you don't want to do
this for the rest of your life

1069
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,360
and you decided to kind of go
into academia a little bit more.

1070
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,720
I have a couple of questions
about that particular junction

1071
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:49,440
#1 why did you feel like you
like, what about the lifestyle

1072
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:51,800
other than because I'm sure that
I know that you said, you

1073
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,120
mentioned earlier that it was
strange to be playing when

1074
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,600
everyone's relaxing or be
working nights and sleeping

1075
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:58,840
during the day.
But I'm sure that there was like

1076
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:00,760
musicians are community at the
end of the day.

1077
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:02,760
I'm sure that a lot of people
there in your life were kind of

1078
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:06,560
in a similar schedule or
similar, you know, so I'm sure

1079
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:10,240
that you weren't deprived of
social life or friends or people

1080
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:14,240
on a schedule.
What is, is it that travelling

1081
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,200
that not that knocks you out?
Is it the instability that, that

1082
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,040
that makes you feel like, hey, I
don't want this?

1083
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:21,160
Or did you just kind of go out
of it?

1084
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:23,840
Like what, what was that like?
I, I think part of it was that I

1085
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,120
was, you know, in order to.
Make a living.

1086
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,080
There's very few musicians who
are doing concerts for a living,

1087
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:31,880
right?
It's only the very top tier that

1088
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:35,120
are doing, you know, they're
playing at Carnegie Hall or

1089
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:38,040
whatever and making enough money
to have to make a good living.

1090
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:43,520
So the rest of us are doing
weddings, parties, you know,

1091
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:47,360
church gigs, our mitzvahs.
We're doing all kinds of gig

1092
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,560
work.
And when you're doing that,

1093
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:53,440
you're not really scratching
that creative itch.

1094
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,160
And it was, you know, but
there's a lot of money to be

1095
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,040
made doing that stuff that
that's so it's, it's quite

1096
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,400
attractive.
So it, it was really that, that

1097
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,920
I just, I didn't want to be, be
playing cover tunes at weddings

1098
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,000
anymore either.
And I thought, if I go into

1099
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,560
academia, I'll be doing, I'll
still be playing, but I'll be

1100
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:14,400
doing concerts, not, not cover
tunes and, and kind of piercing

1101
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,680
a living together doing that
other stuff.

1102
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,400
So that was a big part of it.
Gotcha.

1103
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:21,360
And and so when so when you
decided to do that?

1104
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:22,360
What did you what did you study
in?

1105
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,120
How did you and, and how did you
fit music?

1106
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,440
How did you decide what you're
going to, what you were going to

1107
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,120
study?
Because did you approach this?

1108
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,160
I want to just do what I want
and see what fascinates me.

1109
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,120
Or did you approach it how,
what's the best way to kind of

1110
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,720
make a living after and, and,
and stay in the industry?

1111
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:40,960
Well, I, I, you know, I didn't
go into it.

1112
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,160
Without thinking it through
quite a bit.

1113
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:47,120
And I, I looked at, on the
advice of some, some friends

1114
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:50,800
too, I looked at the
demographics of the university

1115
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:55,400
and after the 60s or in the 60s,
seventies, there were a lot of

1116
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,280
university professors hired,
like a lot, thousands and

1117
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:00,840
thousands.
It really expanded.

1118
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,960
And during that time, jazz
programs started to show up in

1119
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:08,760
universities as well.
So what, that, what I was kind

1120
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:13,200
of betting on was by the mid
90s, a lot of those people are

1121
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:15,840
going to be retiring and there's
going to be a lot of jobs open.

1122
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,160
And it turned out I was right.
There were a lot of jobs open

1123
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:22,920
and, and so I, it was, it was a
good time for me to do that.

1124
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,960
I probably wouldn't say that now
as universities are kind of

1125
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:30,040
contracting, you know, because
of, again, student demographics.

1126
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:32,320
But at that, at that point, I
thought, you know, I think

1127
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:37,240
that'd be a good, good way for
me to, to focus my work on

1128
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,600
creative work rather than gig
work.

1129
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:43,520
And, and I always, again, I
always had a, a very academic

1130
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,560
kind of intellectual bent.
You know, I, I, I was reading

1131
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,120
stuff that I probably didn't
understand when I was a teenager

1132
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:51,720
just because I thought it was
cool.

1133
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:55,440
You know, I, I just had that,
that side of me was there.

1134
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:59,840
So I was really happy to get get
into that in, in college.

1135
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:03,760
So I, I really enjoyed that.
And how much of how much of the

1136
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:06,560
education.
Was classroom setting versus

1137
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,320
musical.
Musical setting, You know, in

1138
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:13,840
the in the States in general.
There's the the bachelor or the

1139
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:17,280
Masters and doctoral programs do
have a lot of coursework.

1140
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:20,160
So yeah, there's a lot of
coursework.

1141
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:22,160
Whereas and what kind, what kind
of classes do they make you

1142
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:23,800
take?
Oh, you take history.

1143
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:25,680
Classes.
Theory classes.

1144
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:30,240
In my doctoral work, there was a
class on how to teach music

1145
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,160
theory because a lot of people
will be teaching music theory in

1146
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:36,320
college.
So stuff like that, but, but you

1147
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,680
know, fairly high level stuff,
but but you're still doing a lot

1148
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,120
of classes.
So I taught in Austria as well.

1149
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:46,360
And when I was there, I started
looking at the programs in

1150
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:51,400
Europe and some of them are
basically like the at the whole

1151
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,920
show for music in Cologne, which
is the big one of the big music

1152
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:57,640
conservatories.
They basically just say take

1153
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:01,080
these two courses and then tell
us what whatever else you want

1154
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:04,200
to do.
So it's very hands off compared

1155
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:05,920
to here.
So here that that kind of

1156
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:10,000
bachelor's model has crept up
and and remained in the master's

1157
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,840
and doctoral degree, at least in
at least in music from my

1158
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:14,800
experience.
Sure, sure.

1159
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:16,480
It kind of it also I, I I think
it.

1160
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:26,000
Goes with a certain type of
societal style.

1161
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:30,000
I would call it you know where.
I think that the United States

1162
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:33,640
in particular, especially from
the 60s to the 90s, was very

1163
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:35,800
institutionalized.
And I think that there was a lot

1164
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:39,280
of emphasis on institutional
hierarchy and that, you know,

1165
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:41,360
the people that are teaching you
are the real greats.

1166
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:44,560
And there's then there's the
other culture, which would be a

1167
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:47,680
little bit more innovative and
more we're here to which we

1168
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:52,480
believe in you and we will and
we want you to practice and

1169
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:55,800
create and we will support what
you create over here.

1170
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,560
And we kind of just want to let
you guide.

1171
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,000
Yeah, I guess it feels a little
more like jazz in that kind of

1172
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:03,440
sense, right, where you're going
to be, where you're going to.

1173
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:05,440
It's a little bit more free
play, a little bit more

1174
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:06,680
disorganized.
Yeah.

1175
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,160
And that's that's really what I
found when I.

1176
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,320
When I taught in Europe, the
flip side of that is that the

1177
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:15,080
standards for entrance are
impossibly high.

1178
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:19,560
So where in Europe to get into
those music programs?

1179
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:23,000
So I yeah, I was on a Fulbright
in.

1180
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,040
In.
Austria and the class I taught

1181
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:28,960
at the University of the
Performing Arts in Graz, where

1182
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:33,120
Schwarzenegger is from, it was a
first year jazz theory class.

1183
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:36,760
So I did my normal spiel, which
is I come in and I start

1184
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:39,160
playing, OK, let's see where
their ears are at.

1185
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:41,760
I start playing simple intervals
and there and the students were

1186
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:44,840
looking at me like what?
Why are you doing this?

1187
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:49,400
I, I kept going and by the end
of it, I realized that these 19

1188
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:53,760
year old students, freshmen were
at the level of masters and

1189
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,080
doctoral students here in the
States.

1190
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,360
Wow.
So it was, it was really quite

1191
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:01,680
an eye opener.
And then half of them, half of

1192
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:05,120
them were not from Austria.
So I asked at the end of the

1193
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:08,400
first class, I said, so what's
the out of state, out of country

1194
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:10,960
tuition here?
And they all just looked at me

1195
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:12,480
like, what's this guy talking
about?

1196
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:15,400
Eventually someone said, oh, I
know what he's asking.

1197
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,840
They said, oh, if if you're not
from Austria, you have to pay an

1198
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,840
$800 a year administrative fee.
There's no other tuition.

1199
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,960
Yeah, imagine that.
Yeah, imagine.

1200
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:32,160
That imagine that yeah.
But the well, I I don't have as

1201
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:33,760
much of A.
Problem with that if the

1202
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:36,960
yardstick.
Is going to be as high as as as

1203
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:38,360
what, as what you're describing
it.

1204
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:42,800
Meaning if for the people that
are the levels of master's PhD

1205
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,240
students while they're freshmen,
while they're 1819 years old,

1206
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:50,040
they're obviously that's not
every time Dick and Harry and

1207
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,960
obviously these are the the,
the, you know the bet the best

1208
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:55,520
and brightest.
And I I think that, you know, at

1209
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:59,400
that point, money should not be
an object to allowing these

1210
01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:01,480
people to create and get an
opportunity to create.

1211
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,480
Yeah, I totally agree the
difference.

1212
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:08,280
Here is that in Austria at the
time, there were five state

1213
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,160
funded schools where you could
get a music degree in in

1214
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,120
Michigan, which is roughly the
same population there at the

1215
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:16,520
time.
I think they were 32.

1216
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:19,600
Wow.
So, so there's where, you know,

1217
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:24,760
the state, Austria can fund five
schools very well and they

1218
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,600
don't, they're not requiring
student tuition to make it work.

1219
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:31,280
Whereas here with there's 32
schools, you can imagine, well

1220
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,320
now everybody is fighting for
students and we need the tuition

1221
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,960
to come in.
So it's very different.

1222
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:39,920
And that reflects in the
standards because you can

1223
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:43,000
imagine if there's only 5, your
standards can be very, very

1224
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:44,840
high.
But if there's 32 and you all

1225
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:48,960
need to have so many students to
make the tuition work, then the

1226
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:53,680
standards clearly have to go
down totally and on a.

1227
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:58,200
Completely apolitical level
because you know, I just just

1228
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:01,320
thinking as a thought
experiment, if the if the states

1229
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,560
were run more like individual
countries as opposed to a larger

1230
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:08,520
federal government overseeing
the tuition system or the

1231
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,640
education system as a whole,
then you could have more

1232
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:14,520
opportunities for programs like
like Austria.

1233
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:17,440
If it was, if, if everything was
a little bit more hands off, I

1234
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:21,360
would imagine from Big Brother
and you know, again, you know,

1235
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:24,480
person, obviously there's a lot
more pros and cons that have to

1236
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,520
be decided other than what music
class music schools are going to

1237
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:30,160
get funding or not, or what
degree of students or what type

1238
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:34,520
of students are going there.
But it is I, I, I, I do think

1239
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,160
quite a bit because I have been
thinking or learning more just

1240
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:39,120
about different industries
within the country.

1241
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:42,880
And I have noticed that one of
the big detriments to almost

1242
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:48,840
everyone is how enormous America
is and, and, and ways to package

1243
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:52,560
things to reach everyone all the
time, especially physical

1244
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:54,840
products.
It's very, very difficult to do.

1245
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:59,640
And so it almost, you know, like
for Dunkin' Donuts to.

1246
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:02,280
Be able to have a doughnut you.
Know the same doughnut recipe

1247
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:06,280
and the same doughnut in
Nebraska or in Hawaii or in Ohio

1248
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:09,440
or in New York or in Florida.
You got to be able to, you're

1249
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:11,880
going to, you're going to have
to compromise somewhere if it's

1250
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:14,400
going to be the same thing all
over the place, covering this

1251
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:17,319
enormous stretch of land.
And if everything's kind of

1252
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:19,840
compartmentalized a little bit
more than it could probably, it

1253
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:21,880
would probably raise the quality
in some kind of sense.

1254
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:23,760
And I'm sure that's the benefit
that they have.

1255
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:26,800
Yeah, I I think part of it is
the accreditation.

1256
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:31,080
Too that that US schools are so
tied to these accrediting

1257
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:35,040
agencies and then there's
funding attached to that.

1258
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:37,920
So there's this huge bureaucracy
as you go up.

1259
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,000
Whereas in Europe they they have
that too.

1260
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,520
But it's, it seems to be much
more flexible.

1261
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:48,600
So I would like to see schools
doing what jazz musicians do is,

1262
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:51,600
you know, focus on on what
you're really good at.

1263
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:54,800
Don't try to be a copy of the
same school that's 30 miles down

1264
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:58,160
the road.
So that accreditation system

1265
01:08:58,279 --> 01:09:01,600
tends to homogenize.
That's really interesting.

1266
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:03,680
That's too.
So kind of like the doughnut?

1267
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:06,720
You know, if you go to school.
If you do a a degree in

1268
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:12,200
Kalamazoo and you do a degree in
San Francisco in, in music,

1269
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:14,880
there's there's they're going to
be very similar because they

1270
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:18,319
both are have to be accredited
schools and that's tied to

1271
01:09:18,319 --> 01:09:21,200
federal funding and so on.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.

1272
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:23,520
Wow, really interesting.
That's also.

1273
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:25,120
Really.
That's also really cool.

1274
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:28,800
Is there, is there a lot of
inter, is there a lot of

1275
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:32,720
interrelationship or interlap
between the the, I guess what do

1276
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:36,640
you call the educational, the,
the, the scholarly community and

1277
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:39,800
the, and the players and the
actual music industry as far as

1278
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:42,840
like the the, the jazz program,
say where you where you were

1279
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:46,399
teaching or we went to school,
were there, was there close

1280
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:49,240
links to the actual business or
industry?

1281
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:51,479
Not.
Not really.

1282
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:53,600
Unless.
They're big name players.

1283
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:57,320
So if you, if you have a, you
know, someone who's really well

1284
01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:59,840
known that's teaching at a
school, they're probably

1285
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:03,880
teaching there a little bit and
then they're touring and then

1286
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:05,440
coming back and teaching a
little bit.

1287
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:09,440
But generally, generally not, I
don't think, I don't think

1288
01:10:09,440 --> 01:10:12,440
there's a big, big connection
there between the, the industry

1289
01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:14,760
and the schools.
The schools are kind of their

1290
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:16,800
own industry actually.
You know, they have their own

1291
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:21,400
conferences, they have their own
societies and there's a lot of,

1292
01:10:21,440 --> 01:10:24,160
you know, that a lot of
connections being made there,

1293
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:27,920
people booking people from other
schools to do concerts here, you

1294
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:31,480
know, that kind of thing.
So it's more of so it's, it's

1295
01:10:31,480 --> 01:10:33,120
more, it's more of an isolated.
Scene.

1296
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:34,800
Yeah.
University scene, yeah.

1297
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:37,680
I'd imagine it to be useful for
the students.

1298
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:40,880
Who are going to graduate?
Or taking classes to learn to

1299
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:44,840
meet people you know, or to
learn how to learn the ropes of

1300
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:47,200
the actual industry they're
probably going to have to deal

1301
01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:48,720
with in three or four years,
right?

1302
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,560
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I mean, they, they're making, I

1303
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:53,000
think.
Probably the biggest thing is, I

1304
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:55,720
mean, you're learning music
theory, you're learning this,

1305
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:58,840
you're, you know, you're kind of
being placed in the context of

1306
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:01,760
the, of the discipline that you
want to engage with.

1307
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:06,760
But but a big thing is also just
networking, getting to know

1308
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:09,960
other players.
You know, I mean, look at Pat

1309
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:12,920
Metheny and Lyle Mays.
They met at U of Miami.

1310
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:15,560
You know, look what happened.
Look what happened there.

1311
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:18,760
That happens all the time as
these connections are made and

1312
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:22,120
then people form groups and
boom, right?

1313
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:24,720
So I would love for that, for
that to happen, the connection

1314
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:26,200
to.
Made people to form groups and

1315
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:28,840
then those groups are traced
back to the university and

1316
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:30,680
always kind of associated back
and forth.

1317
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:34,360
And so that way this you know,
I, I think that there's because

1318
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,760
I think that so much of this is
collaborative and I think that

1319
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:42,040
so much of this you listen and
it could be today or even back

1320
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:46,040
in the 60s and 70s where you
have a music scene and and

1321
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:49,520
musicians are just kind of just
dropping in on one another and

1322
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,080
even if they're cross genre and
even if they're cross-sectional.

1323
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:55,200
Again, the, the you mentioned to
me that with the episode I did

1324
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:58,120
with Scott Baumar where he where
we talked about the relationship

1325
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:02,160
between soul and between Seoul
and Southern rock and that

1326
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:05,280
allowed southern rock to take on
a whole nother dimension and for

1327
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:07,200
Seoul to take on a whole nother
dimension that they wouldn't

1328
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:09,840
have taken ordinarily.
I feel like a lot more, and I

1329
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:14,200
feel like that's typically an
issue that I hope is going to be

1330
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:17,080
reformed or the process of being
reformed with the universities

1331
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:20,840
is that they're so isolated that
you don't get that kind of cross

1332
01:12:21,480 --> 01:12:25,680
meshing of different aspects or
different cultures that new

1333
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:27,480
wonderful things like that could
pop up.

1334
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:30,000
Yeah.
And that's so important is to

1335
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:33,120
have that.
Infusion of something maybe that

1336
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:35,920
you wouldn't think would work,
but it works.

1337
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:39,880
It brings a new life to the to,
to jazz, for example, or to pop

1338
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:41,800
music.
Like you, you put someone,

1339
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:46,640
someone in a band, in a pop band
that that's from another style,

1340
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:48,480
right?
A violinist maybe or something.

1341
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,040
It changes the flavor of the
band forever.

1342
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:52,640
So I think that's really
healthy.

1343
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:56,240
But you know, universities tend
to resist that because of the

1344
01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:58,960
homogenization.
They, they tend to not want to

1345
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:01,120
try those new.
I'm talking about music

1346
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:04,600
departments try new, new
directions like that because

1347
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:07,680
they need their accreditation
and every four or five years

1348
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:11,160
someone shows up to are you, are
you following all the rules that

1349
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:14,880
you know, that kind of thing.
So it, it kind of stifles what

1350
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:17,240
might organically happen
otherwise.

1351
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:19,120
That's a shame.
It is.

1352
01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:21,000
That's a shame.
That's a shame.

1353
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:22,880
That makes me so sad to think
about.

1354
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:24,800
So, so when you're so when
you're teaching now you're

1355
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:27,680
teaching music theory and how
much time does that leave you to

1356
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:31,320
actually play or compose or how
did or is that part of your

1357
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:33,320
expectation?
Is that part of the research

1358
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:35,320
that or not not quote UN quote.
Is that part of the research

1359
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:37,840
that you're that you're expected
to do as a professor?

1360
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:40,840
Yeah.
So so I stopped performing.

1361
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:45,560
About 15 years ago or so, I have
a hand condition that's a

1362
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:48,040
genetic thing.
And it just started.

1363
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:51,680
I just wasn't able to, to keep
playing at the level that I've

1364
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:55,160
been playing at.
And so I, I was commissioned by

1365
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:57,800
the Grand Rapids Symphony to
arrange of all these Four

1366
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:01,640
Seasons for jazz quartet, ballet
and orchestra.

1367
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,320
And I thought, that's a high
note.

1368
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:06,920
I'm, that's going to be my last.
That's going to be my last draw.

1369
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:09,400
And then I, I thought, well,
what am I going to do now?

1370
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:11,680
I mean, I'm, I'm a composer too.
So I kept doing that.

1371
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:14,720
But I, I, I thought, well, I'm
going to, I'm, I'm going to,

1372
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:16,800
someone told me about this thing
called a blog.

1373
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:20,800
So I'm going to write an article
about my thoughts I have on the

1374
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:25,640
jazz industry.
And within a month that I was

1375
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:29,280
quoted in the Minneapolis Times
or Minneapolis Post, whatever

1376
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:31,400
the newspaper is like, like,
wow, this is weird.

1377
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:35,480
How was, how did that happen?
And then I just kept writing.

1378
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:40,240
And then I entered the Carnegie
Arts Writer Contest.

1379
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:44,400
It was like a contest that they
had and I made it up to the kind

1380
01:14:44,400 --> 01:14:48,960
of the semi finals and then I
got contacted by Huffington Post

1381
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:50,840
and they wanted to publish all
my blog stuff.

1382
01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:53,200
So this awesome.
Yeah.

1383
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:55,720
So this second.
Career kind of took off when

1384
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:57,320
the.
Playing thing was was not

1385
01:14:57,320 --> 01:14:59,560
happening.
So of course that really helped

1386
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,560
with my school stuff because,
you know, you're on you're on

1387
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:06,600
the hook for for scholarship and
research and and the writing

1388
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:10,800
that I did was, you know,
clearly was, was qualified as,

1389
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:13,400
as being that.
And and yeah, I still, I still

1390
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,000
compose.
I last year I wrote a 30 minute

1391
01:15:16,440 --> 01:15:20,520
suite for cello ensemble.
So yeah, I'm, I'm still active

1392
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,960
in all of those areas and I have
a, another Commission now that

1393
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:30,800
to do kind of a a, a therapy
linked like music for therapy.

1394
01:15:31,440 --> 01:15:33,400
Yes, yes, yes.
I had AI did an episode of the

1395
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:36,720
music Therapist.
One of my first real episodes

1396
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:40,000
other than my friends, I was
with the music therapist down at

1397
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:43,680
the University of me and she was
really, really kind and really

1398
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:46,240
wonderful.
But we had a whole we I mean,

1399
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:48,480
there's a lot of great work to
be done with that and you could

1400
01:15:48,480 --> 01:15:50,440
really have a huge impact on a
lot of people.

1401
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:55,360
Yeah, I'm, I'm particularly,
I'm, I'm curious how different

1402
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:58,960
genres also translate to
therapy, which because I know

1403
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:00,800
that.
And if you're familiar with

1404
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:04,600
Andrew Huberman of the
podcasting podcasting fame and

1405
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:10,200
Stanford fame, I guess, but he
he did a whole episode on music

1406
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:13,960
with emotions and how listen, if
you're feeling down to listen to

1407
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:17,240
sadder, slower music helps you
work your way through the

1408
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:21,440
emotion as opposed to upbeat
music, trying to force yourself

1409
01:16:21,440 --> 01:16:25,520
to change genres, so to speak,
in your in your emotional state,

1410
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:27,840
in your emotional well-being.
And I found that to be the case

1411
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:30,280
for myself for sure.
Yeah, there have been a lot of

1412
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:31,920
studies done on that.
There was.

1413
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:35,960
One that I, I always brought to
my classes on like heavy metal

1414
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:41,120
music and, and how you know how
the that that they use that

1415
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:46,520
aggression and violence in the
music as a cathartic means to

1416
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:50,040
get that out of them.
People are so nice if you meet

1417
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:53,040
them outside of the.
Outside of singing, when they're

1418
01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:55,400
not screaming, they're the
nicest people in the world.

1419
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:57,680
So funny.
Wow.

1420
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:03,080
Yeah, that's so interesting.
So that that that, that that's

1421
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:07,880
like a release.
That's a wow, that's so funny

1422
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:09,760
because you always notice there.
Always is.

1423
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:13,760
There's people that I'll meet
and there's heavy metal types

1424
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:15,720
and then there are people that I
meet and I'll talk to them for a

1425
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:18,000
couple of minutes and they're
very emotionally in tune and

1426
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:20,480
they're very eloquent about
their, that, you know, their,

1427
01:17:20,480 --> 01:17:23,120
their, their emotional state.
And then I say, what kind of

1428
01:17:23,120 --> 01:17:26,440
music do you listen to?
And they'll almost always throw

1429
01:17:26,440 --> 01:17:30,280
in, you know, whether it is,
whether it's the main thing or

1430
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:32,880
it came third, 4th or 5th, but
they'll always throw in heavy

1431
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:35,360
metal at some point.
They'll say real heavy metal and

1432
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:41,880
they say it is so excellent for,
you know, for life, for getting

1433
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:45,840
through your emotions.
I relate to that kind of because

1434
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:46,920
the.
Springsteen.

1435
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,880
Howl is what saved my early 20s,
I think.

1436
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:53,720
So what allowed me to get
through all the all the pain of

1437
01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:57,520
my early 20s was was was the
Springsteen howl and his live

1438
01:17:57,520 --> 01:17:59,120
performances.
Because there's something so

1439
01:17:59,120 --> 01:18:03,480
primal and so primitive and so
guttural that, that you just

1440
01:18:03,480 --> 01:18:09,480
feel I, I'm releasing all this,
whatever this is inside of me.

1441
01:18:09,480 --> 01:18:11,520
And, and a lot of times it is
not tangible.

1442
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:15,080
And a lot of times words aren't
going to get it out of you even

1443
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:17,560
if you try.
And sometimes it has to go to a

1444
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:19,960
deeper, more primal level than
that, right.

1445
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:22,280
And and when you think about it,
the the.

1446
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:27,520
Reason that works is because the
rhythm and the, and the gestures

1447
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:32,640
in that music are so aggressive
and so forceful and we are

1448
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:36,920
mimetic beings when we, when we
hear that our body mimics it

1449
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:40,040
and, and lets that out.
So it's all again, it's like a

1450
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:44,240
release or a catharsis rather
than, rather than something that

1451
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:47,480
is increasing aggression and
increasing violence.

1452
01:18:47,480 --> 01:18:51,400
It's it's kind of letting it out
in a safe, controlled space.

1453
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:55,880
So cool, so cool, so cool.
And what do you, what do you

1454
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:57,720
think about the Oh, actually, I
do want to ask you about

1455
01:18:57,720 --> 01:18:59,760
composing more because
composing.

1456
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:02,880
So even though you quit playing
composing, you don't need a play

1457
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:05,600
to do to compose.
I still play a little bit, you

1458
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:07,000
know, I, I just couldn't
perform.

1459
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:11,360
Concert level kind of stuff.
So when I compose what I do.

1460
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:12,800
Is I I.
Improvise.

1461
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:15,840
I just Yeah.
And I, when I find something

1462
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:20,160
that I like, then I write it
down and then, then I say, well,

1463
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:22,560
what, what kind of a company
that can go with that?

1464
01:19:23,040 --> 01:19:25,720
And then I'm just like I, like I
said earlier, just using my

1465
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:29,880
ears, using my imagination to
say what, what belongs there.

1466
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:33,000
And then when I find something
that works, it's, it's like I've

1467
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:37,880
found what was already there in,
in a certain sense, but it, it,

1468
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:41,560
what was already there in my
head, not necessarily out there.

1469
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:43,600
It's just to me, this sounds
good.

1470
01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:46,560
And that that's kind of how it
works.

1471
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:49,680
So you know what, maybe you
could help me with this because

1472
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:50,800
I.
Was even thinking about this

1473
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:55,320
until right now when you said
it, but I've always had a hard

1474
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:58,400
time coming up with melodies and
I don't know whether it's

1475
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:00,280
because I'm using a guitar or
not.

1476
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:02,840
And I think I suspect that it
might be because I have no

1477
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:06,160
problem finding a a nice chord
progression that I like.

1478
01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:09,720
I have a very difficult time
coming up with a melody and I

1479
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:13,160
will try to riff and play around
with the guitar and and play

1480
01:20:13,160 --> 01:20:16,120
within different keys to try to
find something.

1481
01:20:16,440 --> 01:20:17,760
But I have a very difficult time
with that.

1482
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:20,840
You think a piano would be
easier for me to because I know

1483
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:23,720
that a lot of the great songs
even that are translated to

1484
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:26,400
guitar, a lot of the great
melodies and great songs were

1485
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:29,120
written, especially in the rock
world, were written on piano and

1486
01:20:29,120 --> 01:20:32,520
then translated over.
Because because the authors

1487
01:20:32,520 --> 01:20:34,440
usually say Bob Dylan would say
the same thing.

1488
01:20:34,440 --> 01:20:38,200
Springsteen says it that The
Beatles certainly say that that

1489
01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:41,560
that the piano gives you a lot
more freedom to explore

1490
01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:45,960
different melodies.
How would you recommend going

1491
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:49,920
about finding or creating one?
I would recommend singing.

1492
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:55,680
So, yeah, just find all, find
the melodies that the the tunes

1493
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:59,200
that you really like, sing along
with them and then find the

1494
01:20:59,200 --> 01:21:02,440
notes on the piano and say, oh,
and and don't expect anything

1495
01:21:02,440 --> 01:21:04,800
other than that.
Just say, oh, I love this Bob

1496
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,160
Dylan tune.
I'm going to sing along with it.

1497
01:21:07,200 --> 01:21:10,880
And once I once you kind of know
it well then go to the piano and

1498
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:13,040
find out what the notes are
like.

1499
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:16,480
Maybe write that melody out and
then do it with another one, and

1500
01:21:16,480 --> 01:21:19,760
then do that with another one.
And you're basically

1501
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:23,000
transcribing, but you're also
internalizing it by singing it

1502
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:25,600
yourself.
So let's say you do that 20

1503
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:28,960
times.
Now you've got a list of now

1504
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:31,680
you've got a manuscript with 20
different melodies in it.

1505
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:35,960
OK, now let's go back in and say
what do they all have in common?

1506
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:37,840
Like what?
What is it that makes a good

1507
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:40,120
melody?
And you'll start to see the

1508
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:44,120
patterns there, that melodies
mostly move by step.

1509
01:21:45,440 --> 01:21:50,640
They are probably 70 percent,
80% step, 20% leap to another

1510
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:53,320
note.
And when they leap, they usually

1511
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:57,320
will drop down one note or maybe
go up one note from the leap and

1512
01:21:57,320 --> 01:22:01,160
start the start the the stepwise
motion again.

1513
01:22:01,480 --> 01:22:03,720
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
So that I think sure.

1514
01:22:04,320 --> 01:22:06,400
I think on the piano that.
You can have a really good

1515
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:08,160
visual for that.
I think that's what the piano

1516
01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:10,400
gives you that the guitar
doesn't like.

1517
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:16,360
Guitar for me is, is like Mars.
It's just mysterious, far away.

1518
01:22:16,480 --> 01:22:18,680
I don't know what they're doing.
I don't know how they're

1519
01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:20,680
thinking of the notes.
Piano to me is OK.

1520
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:24,320
I can see everything, see
everything right here and, and,

1521
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:29,760
and I think that that helps.
So you recommend listen to a

1522
01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:33,120
couple of songs?
Find the melody on the song.

1523
01:22:33,120 --> 01:22:35,280
So for example, if I was
listening to Brown Eyed Girl and

1524
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:44,560
I, I, I, I learned how to find
the transcribe what those notes

1525
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:46,920
are.
I'm trying to play that out loud

1526
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:48,760
so it doesn't you don't have to
depend on my voice.

1527
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:50,480
Do you know brown eyed Girl?
Let's see.

1528
01:22:55,480 --> 01:22:59,680
Wait, what's the next one?
I don't.

1529
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:15,400
I know the
right.

1530
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:16,640
There it is.
That's right.

1531
01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:18,040
Right.
Yeah, I'm remembering it now.

1532
01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:19,400
Yeah.
There you go.

1533
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:21,440
So I would write down what
those.

1534
01:23:21,440 --> 01:23:25,920
Individual notes that I was
playing were Yep, and then.

1535
01:23:26,320 --> 01:23:28,440
And then what then?
Do then.

1536
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:30,400
So now it's in your head, in a
different.

1537
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:33,160
Way you've kind of you've
written it out, it's almost like

1538
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:35,960
you've, you have a paper to
write and you've got the ideas.

1539
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:38,880
But once you write the opening
paragraph to the paper, it

1540
01:23:38,880 --> 01:23:42,080
sticks in a different way.
So once you've written that out,

1541
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:47,560
it's it's, you know it in a, in
a more internalized way.

1542
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:49,800
So then you look at it, you say,
OK, brown eyed girl.

1543
01:23:49,800 --> 01:23:56,240
So the first 3 notes are steps.
So that's up a step, up a step,

1544
01:23:56,240 --> 01:23:58,520
down a step, down a step, and
then a jump.

1545
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:04,320
And it's repeating the same
pattern as the first part and

1546
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:11,240
then it repeats the first part.
OK, so even if you just.

1547
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:15,000
Leave it at that.
You say, OK, it's, it's it took

1548
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:18,720
the first pattern, it jumped up
4 notes and repeated it, and

1549
01:24:18,720 --> 01:24:21,600
then it jumped back to the first
pattern and ended it by jumping

1550
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:24,120
down one note.
Yeah.

1551
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:26,400
OK.
That's, that's good for me to

1552
01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:28,520
know for structuring my own.
Yeah.

1553
01:24:28,520 --> 01:24:31,280
Melody now, yeah, so gotcha.
So what if you?

1554
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:33,840
What if you took that?
And said, well, I'm going to try

1555
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:35,800
that.
I'm going to try that at a

1556
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:38,800
different tempo and starting on
a different note.

1557
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:59,400
So you go.
So I played it slowly, I copied

1558
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:03,280
one of them, but I also changed
it a little bit in there and you

1559
01:25:03,280 --> 01:25:05,120
never would have known.
That's brown eyed girl.

1560
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:07,720
Yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1561
01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:09,120
Then.
Try it in a minor.

1562
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:21,000
Key.
Now it's now it's a sad eyed

1563
01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:22,600
girl now.
Yeah.

1564
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:24,680
Haunted Mansion.
Now it's Haunted Mansion.

1565
01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:26,600
In Disney World is what it
sounds like.

1566
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:29,080
I love that.
That's really cool when you're

1567
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:30,840
composing.
I know that when you're

1568
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:34,560
songwriting, there's generally a
structure, you know, lyrics,

1569
01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:38,360
chorus, lyrics or verse, chorus,
verse, chorus, and maybe

1570
01:25:38,360 --> 01:25:42,080
occasionally a bridge.
When you're composing, are you

1571
01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:45,480
limited to that structure or can
you kind of structure the music

1572
01:25:45,480 --> 01:25:47,040
that you're arranging however
you want?

1573
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:50,160
Well, I structure it however I
want, but.

1574
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:52,560
You know, I'm informed by all my
classical studies.

1575
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:54,240
I mean, I'm like I was a
classical pianist.

1576
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:56,880
I studied classical piano at the
doctoral level as well.

1577
01:25:57,480 --> 01:26:00,680
So there are forms there, but
they're much more flexible than

1578
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:04,640
pop music form.
So you can look at Sonata form,

1579
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:07,280
for example, which you can look
at a Beethoven Sonata, you can

1580
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:10,320
look at a Mozart Sonata.
They all use the same form, but

1581
01:26:10,320 --> 01:26:12,040
they're entirely different
creatures.

1582
01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:14,560
So they have certain
characteristics that are the

1583
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:17,280
same, but you would never say,
oh, this is a verse, chorus,

1584
01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:20,800
verse, chorus.
So so when I compose my

1585
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:23,280
classical music, I'm aware of
all that.

1586
01:26:23,280 --> 01:26:26,920
So my pieces do have form, but
it's much more flexible because

1587
01:26:27,480 --> 01:26:30,560
in pop music you kind of have to
do that because if you go

1588
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:33,040
outside of that, it's no longer
pop music.

1589
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:35,560
Yeah.
It's, it's too complicated,

1590
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:37,520
right.
All of a sudden it's Pink Floyd

1591
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:40,320
or it's Genesis or it's yes or
something.

1592
01:26:40,480 --> 01:26:43,280
And, and it's not, you know,
it's not pop music anymore.

1593
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:45,520
Yeah.
Which is more fun for you to

1594
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:49,080
compose?
I really like classical

1595
01:26:49,080 --> 01:26:51,080
composition.
I, I, that's what I've done the

1596
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:54,120
most of.
I I just find it really

1597
01:26:54,120 --> 01:26:57,880
scratches that creative itch in
a different way because I, I'm,

1598
01:26:58,320 --> 01:27:00,120
I'm not improvised.
I'm improvising it when I'm

1599
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:02,160
doing it, but then it's going
down on paper.

1600
01:27:02,160 --> 01:27:04,600
So then it becomes permanent.
Umm, yeah.

1601
01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:07,320
I really like that.
It's so when I was writing this

1602
01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:09,960
cello piece, I, you know, I have
my kind of routine.

1603
01:27:09,960 --> 01:27:13,840
I start writing at about 11 and
it sometimes I would just be

1604
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:16,720
down here writing and all of a
sudden my wife would call up,

1605
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:19,120
hey, it's 5:00, it's time for
dinner.

1606
01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:20,680
No way.
Yeah, where I'm like, what, what

1607
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:21,800
time is it?
Because I just get.

1608
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:24,120
Lost in it, you know that's.
Amazing.

1609
01:27:24,160 --> 01:27:25,400
It's fun.
It's really fun.

1610
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:28,200
Wow, it's so.
Cool, I love to get it I.

1611
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:31,760
There's not that many activities
that I think that that I could

1612
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:34,360
engage in where time kind of
goes by like that.

1613
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:37,400
And it's, I think it takes a
certain level of proficiency.

1614
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:40,800
And again, that kind of zone
where your, your conscious, your

1615
01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:44,920
intentional mind is off and your
creative mind is in full flow.

1616
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:47,200
Yeah.
And it to me it, it almost feels

1617
01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:50,680
like I'm, I'm a kid.
I'm just, I, I feel like I'm

1618
01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:54,680
having this adventure where I'm
just, but I'm writing music and

1619
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:56,840
I'm always thinking, oh, I could
do this and I could do that.

1620
01:27:57,680 --> 01:28:00,800
And then all of a sudden 3456
hours go by and I'm, I'm

1621
01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:03,240
entirely unaware.
It's crazy.

1622
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:05,000
You change.
Do you change the way that you

1623
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:06,320
write if you know it's going to
be?

1624
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:08,080
Played with a big band or a
small band?

1625
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:09,840
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.

1626
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:11,560
Yeah.
You really?

1627
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:15,000
Have to zone in on on who the
ensemble is, what the

1628
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:17,680
instruments are, because each
instrument has different

1629
01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:20,120
strengths and weaknesses.
You can't just take what you

1630
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:23,720
can't just take what you play on
a piano and say hey, hey, cello

1631
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:26,560
player play this it you know it
doesn't work.

1632
01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:29,600
Same with guitar, right?
You, you have to, you have to

1633
01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:32,840
know how the instrument works to
some degree, right?

1634
01:28:32,840 --> 01:28:35,280
To what?
What the player is going to

1635
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:38,080
enjoy playing hopefully and have
fun playing.

1636
01:28:38,080 --> 01:28:40,520
That means you'll get more
performances, hopefully.

1637
01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:42,120
Did that.
So did that limit you to the

1638
01:28:42,120 --> 01:28:43,560
instruments that you're willing
to put into?

1639
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:47,440
Your composition that you want
to be playing your compositions

1640
01:28:47,800 --> 01:28:50,600
it it does a little bit, but you
know as someone with a.

1641
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:53,360
Doctorate in composition.
I studied all of the

1642
01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:57,200
instruments, so I, I'm, I'm kind
of aware of what they, you know,

1643
01:28:57,360 --> 01:29:01,400
how they all work.
So, yeah, it, you're limited

1644
01:29:01,400 --> 01:29:03,200
there a little bit.
I mean, I like writing for

1645
01:29:03,200 --> 01:29:06,600
strings and I like writing for,
for piano and brass.

1646
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:07,920
Yeah.
Written a lot for brass.

1647
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:08,880
This is fun.
Yeah.

1648
01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:10,840
Brass is fun.
Brass is really cool.

1649
01:29:11,040 --> 01:29:13,520
There's a great band called the
Tedeschi Trucks Band.

1650
01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:14,800
I don't know if you know them.
No, I don't.

1651
01:29:15,720 --> 01:29:19,880
Oh, they're great.
So Derek Trucks was the drummer

1652
01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:23,440
for The Allman Brothers Nephew
and started playing

1653
01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:27,960
professionally, started showing
up with them professionally with

1654
01:29:27,960 --> 01:29:30,080
The Allman Brothers at like 11
or 12.

1655
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:34,400
There's an amazing video on
YouTube that you can look up if

1656
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:37,160
you Google and I'll send you the
link. 13 year old Derek Trucks

1657
01:29:37,160 --> 01:29:43,600
playing Layla by and and he's a
13 year old kid and he plays

1658
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:47,200
slide guitar and he's just in
this zone and but his but his

1659
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:53,200
band, which has the Southern
rock roots, has a full awesome

1660
01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:57,160
horn section and the brass
section.

1661
01:29:57,160 --> 01:30:00,080
I think Springsteen also did
this in recent years he's been

1662
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:02,200
traveling with a whole horn
section.

1663
01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:06,800
It just changes everything.
It's so it's so much fun.

1664
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:10,880
It's so cool.
And I imagine, do you try to do

1665
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,000
you try to like link together
weird instruments, like do you

1666
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:16,680
try to throw an accordion
somewhere or I mean, you know,

1667
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:19,280
do you throw in random
instruments with other types of

1668
01:30:19,280 --> 01:30:22,120
instruments that don't typically
ever go together or is that more

1669
01:30:22,120 --> 01:30:25,160
difficult to write for?
I have done that in in my kind

1670
01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:26,960
of jazz.
World.

1671
01:30:26,960 --> 01:30:29,520
So I have a recording out with a
shakahachi flute.

1672
01:30:30,440 --> 01:30:33,040
A good friend of mine from
Detroit who who play he's a.

1673
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:35,480
He's a jazz.
Sax player, but he's also an

1674
01:30:35,480 --> 01:30:37,240
excellent shakahachi flute
player.

1675
01:30:37,440 --> 01:30:40,400
And so the music, you know,
shakahachi is not a fully

1676
01:30:40,400 --> 01:30:44,040
chromatic instrument, right?
It's it, there's only so many

1677
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:46,760
notes you can play on it.
You have to bend to get some of

1678
01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:48,560
the other pitches.
But it worked.

1679
01:30:48,680 --> 01:30:50,680
It worked really great.
I'll send you a link if you

1680
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:52,440
want, if you want to listen to
some of that.

1681
01:30:52,680 --> 01:30:54,520
I love that stuff.
I love that stuff.

1682
01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:57,560
Yeah, the.
Man, I think the accordion has

1683
01:30:57,560 --> 01:31:01,720
to be my my most favorite
underrated instrument because

1684
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:03,960
you can make such magnificent
sounds with it.

1685
01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:07,240
I had an ex-girlfriend in
college who whose mom played the

1686
01:31:07,240 --> 01:31:11,040
piano, but she learned vis A vis
the accordion and she used to

1687
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:13,000
take out the accordion every now
and then to play a couple of

1688
01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:14,880
songs on it.
It was so cool.

1689
01:31:14,880 --> 01:31:16,680
It's so rich, such an awesome
sound.

1690
01:31:16,680 --> 01:31:18,760
That was my first instrument was
the accordion.

1691
01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:21,040
Oh yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and I just, I actually

1692
01:31:21,080 --> 01:31:25,520
played it in the new music
ensemble here at Grand Valley in

1693
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:29,040
some minimalist in a couple of
minimalist or one minimalist

1694
01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:30,880
piece.
So it's kind of cool to be

1695
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:35,280
playing this with on a on a
piece by Terry Riley in C and I

1696
01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:37,880
was playing accordion on it.
Wow.

1697
01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:39,680
Yeah, somewhat fun.
So.

1698
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:42,160
Cool.
Anyway, we're we're at time, but

1699
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:45,400
Kurt, doctor, doctor, Kurt,
thank you so much.

1700
01:31:45,400 --> 01:31:48,520
This was this is such a great
conversation and so much fun.

1701
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:50,960
And also congratulations on your
recent retirement.

1702
01:31:51,440 --> 01:31:54,240
Thank you.
And I hope that you take all the

1703
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:56,800
creative time in the world to
write all the great music.

1704
01:31:57,040 --> 01:32:00,600
And please, whenever you come up
with something cool or you need

1705
01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:03,640
any kind of ears, feel free to
shoot it my way because I'm

1706
01:32:03,640 --> 01:32:05,920
always I've always loved to get
feedback and I always love to

1707
01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:09,280
hear new things.
So I'm a happy, I'm a happy

1708
01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:11,320
free, free listener.
Awesome.

1709
01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:14,480
I'll give you any feedback.
Well, thanks so much for having

1710
01:32:14,480 --> 01:32:15,600
me.
This has been really fun.

1711
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:18,280
And time, it is a ton of fun.
Thank you so much, Carl.

1712
01:32:18,280 --> 01:32:19,360
We'll talk soon.
Take care all.

1713
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:20,480
Right.
Bye bye.