Music Series 5: Dean Budnick / Relix / Jambands.com / Grateful Dead / Phish / Billy Strings

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

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Things should be comfortable
with We're live.

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Welcome, Dean.
I'm so happy there's several

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months in the in the works, but
I'm so happy to do this.

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Yeah, that we were trying and
finally we got it done.

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So here we are.
Here we are.

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So you have, you've done so many
wonderful, wonderful things in

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your in your career.
And I love talking to people

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that turn passion into
something, something real.

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And that's something that they,
you know, something that

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manifested something real.
And whether or not it's a

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business or profitable or
whatever, like almost doesn't

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matter to me as much as the
effort and having gone out like

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out of your way to really pursue
something 100% the way that like

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the best to the best of your
abilities.

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And, and it looks like you kind
of done that with music and

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writing and, and particularly
with this whole flavor of jam

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music.
And so I wanted to, you know, I,

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I guess we could kind of go back
to the beginning, but if you

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were introducing the concept of
jam music to people, how would

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you kind of explain it to
someone that had never really

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heard of it?
Sure.

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Well, let me step back and say
right.

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So I founded jambands.com in
1998 and at that time I answered

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that question a lot.
And in fact the reason I founded

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jambands.com in 98 was because
of that very question.

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There were these collection of
bands that were out there that

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were doing something unlike
anyone else truly.

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And there was a community of
bands and there were there was a

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community of fans.
And I thought, well, why don't

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we see what we can do?
No one was paying any attention.

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Rolling Stone wasn't paying any
attention.

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Mainstream media wasn't.
If anything, they were very

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derisive about all of these
groups.

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So I, I started this, this
website with, with a bunch of

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people that many of whom I knew
from online and I wouldn't meet

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for years, years and years.
In some instances, a lot of them

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were very young and then have
gone on to do some crazy things

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in the world, especially in the
music space, like Jesse Jarno,

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who's written books and does the
good old Grateful Dead cast and

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Benji Eisen, who eventually
wrote a book with Billy

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Kreutzmann and now manages Billy
and a lot of other artists as

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well.
I'm, I'm drifting from the

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question.
I do understand that, but that's

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OK, you know, but that's OK.
But but ultimately, listen, what

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I would say is their bands that
are committed to improvisation

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in the live setting, that can't
be defined by their fealty to

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anyone given musical genre genre
because they they drift across

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and they delve into this and
that.

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And, you know, if I'd go beyond
that, I'd probably say, and, and

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you know, I've have nurtured a
particular community of fans who

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are, who are, you know, willing
to embark on a journey with them

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on any given night, something
akin to that.

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That's an awesome answer.
It's, it's such a great answer

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because when you meet someone
and they're wearing a Grateful

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Dead T-shirt and you say like
night T-shirt or something,

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they're wearing a fish hat or
something like that or one of

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the doughnut T-shirts or
something.

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And you go and like you make an
inside joker reference.

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Like you immediately have a
relationship with that

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individual.
And like, you could be on the

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subway, you could be in France,
you could be skiing in

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Switzerland.
It doesn't make a difference

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everywhere you go.
And then there's a, there's the

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recognition that, hey, like we
kind of like this far out thing

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together.
Like this is cool, you know?

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There's nothing like that truly,
when you have that, when you

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have that shorthand, when you
have that language.

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And I even think about it like
fish actually manifested that in

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a very real way in the 90s when
they had their secret language.

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And so the idea is they, they,
you'd see a show and they'd be

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in the middle of the jam and
they, they play a little cue for

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the audience and everyone
simultaneously would go dope.

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And if you walk into the show,
you're like, wait, what?

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And, and also, I think you'd
think that's really cool.

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How can I, how can I be a part
of it?

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Like it, it never was distancing
everyone.

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It was like a prank that you
could be a part of if you didn't

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know anything about it, But then
you were welcomed inside and

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they would often explain or the
people around you would explain

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during set break or after the
show.

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So there really was sort of
that, that, that collective

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sense of, of community with a
little bit of a wink.

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I think, you know, you see the
Jam fans have a, I think a good

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sense of humor and more often
than I think, you know, we

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understand what maybe that maybe
some people aren't totally down

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with what we're into and that's
OK, That's OK, that's cool.

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We could be self effacing about
it.

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I my my first, my first live J
Rad show, Joe Russo's almost

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Dead.
That's how I actually, I, I

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discovered them before I even
discovered the dead because they

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did an awesome cover of
Springsteen's Atlantic City that

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just blew my mind.
And I was a huge Springsteen

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fan.
And then I heard the band's

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version.
I was like, that's pretty cool.

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And then I heard J Rad and I'm
like, what is this?

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This is so great.
And then my friends, like, if

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you think that's good, he's
like, check out the music that

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they're covering.
And I'm like, what are you even

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talking about?
He's like they're cover band.

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You know, it's pretty awesome,
but they would love they would

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love to hear that.
Like I think that that they

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would say, well, that's what
we're trying to do.

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Like they don't want to be
limiting in any manners.

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They're just making music, you
know, it's interesting.

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Be cool.
I I just interviewed Tommy

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Hamilton from that band.
I think it's up on.

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To view him, I've been driving
his press person crazy.

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It's up on it's up on
relics.com.

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People can check it out.
But but the one thing I said to

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him was at the beginning, right?
He was a Grateful Dead fan from

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when he was very young.
And Joe Russo knew nothing about

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the Grateful Dead, but
eventually was invited into the

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band further with Phil Lesh and
Bob Weir.

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So he learned their catalog.
But the three other guys in the

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band were had knew nothing
essentially about the Grateful

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Dead.
So but so the three other guys

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in the band knew nothing about
the Grateful Dead.

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And you could hear it, I think
in the music.

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They would they would every
night.

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They would just take things not
at all anywhere near what the

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Grateful Dead did.
They were just finding their own

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way.
And when you when I asked Tommy

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about this, I'm like, listen
that that was true at one point.

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What happens when the other
members of the band actually

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learned about the have learned
about the Grateful Dead after

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all the time?
Does that impact what you do?

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And he's like, no, you know
what?

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We're just five friends hanging
out.

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He said, if we're not making it,
we, we'd be doing this on stage

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with Grateful Dead quotes.
And then if you see us

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backstage, we're doing it with
film quotes.

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And that's just who we are.
What you're seeing on stage is

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US55 dudes trying to make each
other laugh and try to go.

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And I, I think you've got that.
And so I think it's awesome.

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And I think he would think it's
awesome the way the way you came

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to it.
Yeah, it's super cool.

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I was listening to them the
other day.

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I was coming back from the gym
and if the South Florida traffic

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is just out of control,
terrible.

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And it was a 20 minute drive
that turned into an hour and 40

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minute drive.
And I'm sitting in the car and

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thankfully I have AJ on me and I
put on AJ rad concert and and

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I'm thinking to myself while I'm
listening, I'm like, it sounds

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like they're painting a
tapestry, a canvas, like a

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tapestry.
And like, and like you could see

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as they set up each song like
they're they're going into music

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never stopped.
And like the whole introduction

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was like a like a couple of
minute long.

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Like it just felt like they were
setting the stage.

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It felt almost like a Broadway
show.

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Like, you know, you're going to
like introduce different aspects

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and then you're going to and
then and then different

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instrument instruments come in
and like, and music is always

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obviously very associated with
with imagery and lights and

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stuff like that.
And that's such an integral part

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of the of all.
Like, you know, these jam these

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live shows and I just, I, I, I
kept on thinking about how

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visually magnificent just the
music was and how strange it is

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that like, that's the way I'm
translating it, you know, It's

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really, really cool.
Yeah, no, they're not.

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By the way, that's also, I
would, I would encourage anyone

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to see them at a place like the
Capitol Theater if you can.

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Oh, Chester.
So that that was great.

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It's just a great.
Match of the visual, because the

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visuals there are really, really
elevated and the music you get

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on the stage for them, yeah,
yeah.

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The first time I went to them
was at an outdoor concert in

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Connecticut.
I think I was it's called

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there's a bowl there.
I forgot what it's called, but

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then the second W you W you,
yes, yes, yes, that's right, the

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music bowl and and they had a
sax player with them and and

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they also so talk about inside
jokes.

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So I'm at this first show and
like I I'm pretending like I

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know what I'm talking about and
I was really excited.

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I was hoping to play China cat.
I know your rider and they

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opened with with Scarlet
Begonias and then I'm talking to

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someone and I'm saying, hey,
man, I hope they play this.

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He goes, yeah, you know what
song comes after Scarlet the

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going news?
And I'm like, no.

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And like I felt like like I felt
like it was such like a softball

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answer and I just and I just
missed it.

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And then he just like laughed
and smiled.

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He's like, man, he goes, keep
listening.

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You're going to have a great
time with this.

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And like, I thought that was
like so nice.

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It was so cool to kind of just
see that experience, you know?

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That's right.
And for the record, like there's

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no reason to think they're
totally going to go into fire on

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the mountain every time out of
scarlet, because that's what Jay

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Rad does.
I'm not saying, you know, they

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didn't that night.
I'm not saying they won't most

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nights, but I honestly that the
beauty of them is you, you can't

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necessarily expect that the way
you could for better, I think,

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and worse with the good old
Grateful Dead.

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I mean, you know, there's
there's a majesty to the way the

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dead would build that.
And there's some extraordinary

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ones that that that, you know,
but but at some point, I think

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some people would feel it became
a little ossified.

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I might, I might question that
on the edges, but I, you know, I

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get it.
On the other hand, who kind of

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doesn't want to hear Scarlet
Fire by the Grateful Dead?

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But but you know, but J Rad
isn't always going to do that.

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Well, I feel like if I'm, if I'm
going to be a musician in the

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spirit of the dead playing their
music, I would say, man, that

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doesn't have to be a rule.
You know, like, let's see where

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the music takes us and like, and
and and they do that and like,

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you know, like it like you say
it is.

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There's something incredible
about about that build up and

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about the transition songs that
they play.

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But there's something also
really cool about like a

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totally, you know, just like
little twist stone in there that

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you have no idea where it's
going to come in.

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As a musician, it's probably a
lot more creatively satisfying

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to be able to do something like
that, I imagine.

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I do think that the sticking
with J Rad right?

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I do think that they're they
don't feel obligated in any

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manner, shape or form.
You know who else didn't Phil

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Lesch towards the end of his
career, towards the end of, you

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know, it's in the PO in the fill
and friends era.

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He would take it a lot of Bobby
Weir would take it a lot of

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different places.
By contrast, and this is not a

223
00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,040
criticism.
If you go see Dark Star

224
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,520
Orchestra, they're going to
deliver over something a lot, a

225
00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,040
lot closer.
I mean, listen and to some

226
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,920
degree they're going to actually
interpret a specific night.

227
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,360
They're going to give you the
Grateful Dead set list through

228
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,960
their own lens.
It's not note for note, which is

229
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,120
what I remember when they
started.

230
00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:23,560
I someone told me that's what it
was.

231
00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:25,920
I'm like, well, that seems
counter to the idea of the

232
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,560
Grateful Dead.
And that is not what they do at

233
00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:30,440
all, by the way.
But but they're going to say,

234
00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,600
you know, you're probably going
to get a scarlet, an amazing

235
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,960
scarlet fire from that.
I I just think there are

236
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,240
different ways at it and
everything, you know, I like to

237
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,880
say foreign follows function.
And so in certain contexts, you

238
00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,040
know, maybe it's going to
happen, maybe it's not, you

239
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,400
know, maybe it'll be a
discovery, maybe it won't, but

240
00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,880
it still can be awesome.
But there's all all of those

241
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,680
things entwined or what make for
for a quality evenings

242
00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:55,280
entertainment.
Definitely, definitely.

243
00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,560
I wanted to get some of your
thoughts because I read your

244
00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:04,040
article about Take a Step Back
with Bob Weir and Bobby Weir,

245
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,520
and he just passed about a month
ago.

246
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:13,120
And, you know, it's fine There
always.

247
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,120
It always felt like there's so
much depth to him that wasn't

248
00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:17,160
being said.
And there is.

249
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:18,960
And, like, talk about, like
inside jokes.

250
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,280
Like, it always felt like he
constantly looked like he was

251
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,200
having an inside joke with the
entire world.

252
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,200
And one of my favorite
interviews with him was that I

253
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,560
saw of him was when he was
talking to Jerry and they asked

254
00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:32,040
if and the interviewer asked if
fame had changed them.

255
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,280
They're like, yeah.
And he's like, I'm sure, you

256
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,800
know, this is like, you know,
the pistachios on these three

257
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,240
really, really hard to open.
He goes, we didn't even bother

258
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:41,640
with those anymore.
We just throw them right in the

259
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,520
garbage.
And like, there's something that

260
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,800
was so, like, down to earth and
real.

261
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,120
Can you maybe speak about him or
you know, I mean you, I'm sure

262
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,720
you've had a lot of personal
interactions with him, right?

263
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,920
I did listen.
The thing about Bobby is he was

264
00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,920
always Bobby, like you would see
him in any context and he would

265
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,520
be, he owned, he owned who he
was in a major way.

266
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,280
And I, you know, and, and I
think that's really part of the

267
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,040
beauty of him as, as a creative
person, as someone you'd

268
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,960
interact with.
There are times it could be

269
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,480
really quiet and then he would
just lay in with something

270
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,880
really, really funny.
I, I would, you know, I, I

271
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,280
interviewed him.
I've been with him when he was

272
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,600
around other artists, like
backstage at shows, and he was

273
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,160
really, really concerned
assistant with the way and he

274
00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,640
was like that on stage as well.
He always had that, that wry

275
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,280
sense of humor.
I'll tell you this, we haven't

276
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,080
announced this yet, but I'll
announce this right here, right

277
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,760
now.
You know, our next relics cover

278
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,480
is going to be into a Bob Ware
issue, right?

279
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,800
And as we're as we're thinking
about it, we're looking at the

280
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,960
images that we want to have on
on the cover and all of them or

281
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,480
Bob with just like this, right,
Different eras, right.

282
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:56,640
He has this just wry little
smile on his face.

283
00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,640
Like it's not like he's pulling
one over on the world.

284
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,200
It's like he's pulling one over
on people who don't get the

285
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,000
joke.
And there are so many people who

286
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,720
get the joke with him and
everyone else.

287
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,320
You know, I know for a fact he'd
say like a, you know, FM if they

288
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,640
if they can't take a joke.
And he always had that spirit,

289
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,400
which I think really was pretty,
pretty marvelous.

290
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:21,720
And I think over time too, after
Jerry passed, I think he took on

291
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,160
new responsibility in that there
was a time when, you know, with

292
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,720
his band Rat Dog, he wouldn't
play any of Jerry's songs.

293
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,720
He would just play his own
music, which makes would

294
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,400
certainly make sense.
And then he did that even

295
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,160
initially after Jerry passed.
But at some point he's like, you

296
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,040
know what?
We got to keep this music alive.

297
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,200
We had this has to be a living
breathing thing.

298
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,080
And then he started playing, you
know, some great, some great

299
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,680
Jerry music.
And it was, it was I thought,

300
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,600
thought, and I just thought it
was selfless.

301
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,400
He didn't write those songs.
He's sharing them with the world

302
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,520
and he just believes in in what
they can, in what they can

303
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,480
offer.
And the other thing I'll say,

304
00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,200
because you mentioned that that
essay, right?

305
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,720
Jerry passes on on August 9th,
1995.

306
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,880
It turns out that I'm at that
time, I'm in Cambridge, MA and

307
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,240
Bobby, we already, I think was
playing a show up at the Hampton

308
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,480
Casino.
Not not the venue in Virginia.

309
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,320
There's a smaller venue called
the Hampton Casino up in

310
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:17,840
actually, the one in Virginia is
not a casino.

311
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,760
It's Hampton, whatever, Hampton
Amphitheater, Hampton Coliseum,

312
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:23,240
that's what it is.
This one's Hampton.

313
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,760
I don't know.
This one's Hampton Casino in in,

314
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,520
in up in New Hampshire.
And we had no idea.

315
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,360
Is Bobby going to is he going to
is he going to play tonight?

316
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,160
Is he not going to play tonight?
And I think he just thought it

317
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,960
was his duty.
And he said that at the

318
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,720
beginning.
And it, I wouldn't say it was

319
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:47,960
musically the best night of the
best night that I'd ever heard.

320
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,320
But emotionally it could have
been the deepest.

321
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,400
And you could see it in his
eyes.

322
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,320
You know, he was working through
it and trying to be there for

323
00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,920
everyone in the midst of a lot
of heavy thoughts.

324
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,520
And in that instance, too,
right, everyone around you in

325
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,200
that in that play, it was
probably my God, is it's a 2000

326
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,080
capacity, you know, room.
Everyone in there was there for

327
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,440
the right for that reason,
because and they wanted to

328
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,120
commune together.
And Bobby was facilitating that

329
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,640
and not telling a lot of
stories, being a little bit, you

330
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,200
know, light in that regard, just
delivering music, but

331
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,360
occasionally acknowledging, you
know, what everyone must be

332
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:27,160
thinking.
I don't know.

333
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,880
It was really, really heavy.
And I give him all the credit in

334
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,840
the world for for for doing
that.

335
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,000
And he canceled the tour after
that and then pick it up a

336
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,880
little bit later.
But it was, it was, it was

337
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,320
extraordinary to me what he was
willing to do in that moment and

338
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:43,800
what he facilitated in that
room.

339
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:45,720
Totally.
And you know what?

340
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,720
And and there's something else
also, I think, and maybe there's

341
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,320
just a feeling that I'm getting
and I'm I'm just totally making

342
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,400
it up.
But it, but I do feel like,

343
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:59,240
especially in the last decade or
two, there's a real

344
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,120
transformation and like wisdom,
I think that he seemed to embody

345
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,800
also like he was, you know, like
you watch old videos or concerts

346
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:11,800
and he's like, I, I, I, I, I, I
think of him as a cosmic cowboy,

347
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,119
you know, and then, and then
like as he gets older, he kind

348
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,400
of turns into more like a cosmic
kind of prophet cowboy, you

349
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,960
know, and like I and like, it
was interesting because when I,

350
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,319
when I heard knew that he died
and like he seemed like he was

351
00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:26,200
relatively healthy, relatively
recent, you know, I think he

352
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,600
played just a couple of months
earlier at was the 60th

353
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:34,200
anniversary in Golden Gate.
And, you know, and I just

354
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,280
thought to myself, like, there's
no doubt in my mind that that

355
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:45,200
like that guy's depth of
consciousness is so deep that

356
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,640
like, I'm sad that he's gone,
but like, there's no way he's in

357
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,800
a worse.
Like he, he, he's like, he's

358
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,600
still laughing.
Like he's still, like, he still

359
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,040
knows.
He still looks exactly what's

360
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,280
going on, you know, And I feel
like that's what the case is.

361
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,360
Well, I, I tell you what, I
interviewed him once.

362
00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:02,480
He was talking about Jerry, and
he sort of doesn't believe in

363
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,120
death in many respects.
He thinks that, you know, that

364
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:10,920
there's some enduring spirit and
he would dream about Jerry and

365
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,040
very much believed that they
were in communication.

366
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,600
So he had all that, you know, to
bring back.

367
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,400
Plus, think about this, though,
in terms of Bobby, right?

368
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,760
He starts he's a teenager when
when they start out and he's

369
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:24,320
like.
He's.

370
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,160
Taking a lot of acid, by the
way, he's taking a lot of acid

371
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,240
at at 17.
And I, I, you know, everything

372
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,800
you hear about him and he
doesn't talk about this really

373
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,880
very much later in life.
Like there are periods of time

374
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,480
where he doesn't really talk,
you know, he's just like

375
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,680
processing.
He's like dosed and processing

376
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:46,280
the world in the middle of this
intense psychedelic music and

377
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,200
experience in the totality of
it.

378
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,720
And so I, I just think that
obviously, right, that informed

379
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,360
his, his worldview.
And I think, you know, over

380
00:18:56,360 --> 00:19:00,880
years, all of those experience
sort of a Crete and it it it he

381
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,800
blossomed into what he became
sort of this, I don't want to

382
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,360
say all, all knowing, although
at times he felt like it, but

383
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,520
you know, just this spirit who
really had a handle on the world

384
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,280
and, and what it meant and his
place in it.

385
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,480
Because I think, you know, you
can have a handle in the world,

386
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,080
but maybe still not maybe not
have a handle on your place in

387
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,760
it.
But I feel like Bobby had it,

388
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,120
just like I said earlier, like
Bobby is always Bobby.

389
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,920
It's really and it's awesome.
It's awesome.

390
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,360
Yeah, that's really, really
great.

391
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:30,640
It's such a it's such a great
way to be remembered, man.

392
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,040
Like of all, you know, like of
all the things that you can say,

393
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,960
like to say that someone was
really authentic to themselves

394
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,040
is such a rare and beautiful
compliment that, you know, I, I

395
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:41,760
think that it's high praise and
I think he deserves.

396
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,480
I think he should be living up
to, I'm sorry.

397
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,720
I think that he lived up to it
rather, I think his entire life

398
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,480
was that what's what do you
think of John Mayer and what do

399
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:51,880
you think is the future of the
band now?

400
00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,200
Complete speculation.
I'm not asking you for anything

401
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,320
that you know.
You know what, I will say this,

402
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:05,080
I think John Mayer gave a lot of
himself to in terms of time and

403
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:10,120
energy to to debt and company to
keep that going at a time where

404
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:13,640
he obviously had his own career.
I think he believed in the

405
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,560
music, he believed in the
relationships and wanted to

406
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,960
facilitate that and look at what
it, look at what it became.

407
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,520
And the thing the thing I really
appreciated and respected about

408
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,680
what John did is he did not try
to sound like Jerry all the

409
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,840
time, right.
It was not a Jerry clone in

410
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,160
front of the band he brought.
It was a little more Blues

411
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:32,760
based.
You know, it harken back a

412
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,680
little bit to the Pigpen era.
Not always, but that was really

413
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,960
at the heart of John's playing
historically before he became,

414
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,280
you know, the pop icon that I
guess he still is.

415
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:44,720
But so listen, he did it.
He didn't have to.

416
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:47,280
He liked the people.
He liked the music that was

417
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,560
happening.
What will happen move?

418
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,080
I'm it's a great question and I
could be wrong about this.

419
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,760
I don't think I don't think
they'll be dead in company

420
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,280
anymore, right?
I think that maybe John will do

421
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,600
some one offs or maybe some
festival gigs where he revisits

422
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,640
the catalog because I think he's
passionate about the catalog,

423
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,600
but I don't believe that he's
just going to bring in somebody

424
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,560
else to play rhythm guitar and
sing those songs.

425
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,040
I, I think he knows that just
feels a little bit off.

426
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,840
But again, I, I think he's
passionate about the, the music

427
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,040
of the good old Grateful Dead.
And I think we'll see him do

428
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,360
more of it, but in a different
way.

429
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:33,240
I just I also can't get over how
well he plays craw genre.

430
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,840
I can't get over it.
Like I mean like the guy, the

431
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:40,160
guy loves me.
Like you could see he breathes

432
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,440
it, you know, and, and, and I
mean, and I've gone through like

433
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,120
different phases where I'm
trying to learn about different

434
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:48,160
types of music.
And every single time John

435
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,680
Mayer's name pops up as like a
deep track, like secret gem that

436
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,920
you wouldn't know is like
incredible, that genre.

437
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,280
And I'm like, this guy's
everywhere, man.

438
00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,800
So like, yeah, I mean, you
probably gave 10-15 years to the

439
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,120
dad or to the to the to the dad
and company.

440
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,840
Just about a little overwrite.
So that's fairly well was 2015,

441
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:08,800
right?
Yeah.

442
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,440
And so dead and company was
2016.

443
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,920
So a decade, right.
It's a decade of his career

444
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,320
really the peak career.
I think a lot of people would

445
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,480
say in terms of songwriting that
he will and all of that stuff.

446
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,200
I mean, I do think it certainly
wasn't mercenary because when he

447
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,360
started, like that wasn't the
move to make.

448
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,240
He was doing OK financially,
right?

449
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,360
He didn't need to do that to
him.

450
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:32,200
He did it because creatively it
scratched an itch for him.

451
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,880
And I think he continued to do
it because it creatively

452
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,600
scratched it for him and he
liked the people who were part

453
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,840
of it as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

454
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,440
I, I mean, who doesn't, I guess
who does it?

455
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,240
I want to, I want to talk to
you.

456
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,360
There's actually so many
different ways to go.

457
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:49,520
Do you want to talk about fish
or do you want to talk about

458
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,000
let's talk about fish?
I want to transition.

459
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,920
So historically, I guess
timeline wise, great.

460
00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:00,200
Jerry Garcia dies 95.
You start jam bands right around

461
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:01,680
them.
I actually meant to ask you it.

462
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,040
I mean, the Dead had really
peaked in the popularities in

463
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,440
the late 80s, early 90s.
Were people writing off other

464
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,360
forms of jam bands at the time?
Because I know that fish which

465
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:15,880
had started earlier and it was
string cheese around at that at

466
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,440
that point, at that point
already.

467
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,560
String cheese had just.
It's funny because my my my

468
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,360
sister at the time lived in
Telluride when they started.

469
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,720
And Speaking of fish, I remember
going to see a fish show at Red

470
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:34,160
Rocks in 95 and there was this
dude who was with us who was

471
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,480
watching.
I'm like, oh, that's, you know,

472
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,240
like that's my friend Mike from
Telluride, who really likes

473
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,080
fishing.
It was Michael Kang who was just

474
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,360
there to to enjoy to enjoy some
some fish.

475
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,000
So you know, string cheese have
been going for about two or

476
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,280
three years at the at that
point.

477
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:50,840
There were other bands out
there.

478
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,600
Listen, so you know fish I
first, I grew up in New England,

479
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,880
so sort of by luck, I first saw
fish in 87, which is pretty

480
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,240
early in their, in their in
their career.

481
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,920
And at the time, people, for the
most part, if I'm stereotyping

482
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,920
dead heads were not on board
with Fish, right?

483
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,600
They thought that the, I mean
the lyrics, they thought the

484
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,160
lyrics were a little too fluffy
and not very.

485
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,520
They didn't think that the music
was as heavy emotionally.

486
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,840
And but I think Fish would agree
with everything that I'm saying

487
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:23,840
as well.
They were younger.

488
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,120
They were younger guys at the
time.

489
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,240
Sure, sure.
Good to college guys, right?

490
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:29,680
Yeah, So people would be very
dismissive.

491
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,160
You know, there'd be a lot of
us.

492
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,640
We'd wear fish out.
We wear fish shirts too,

493
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,560
Grateful Dead shows just to get
see what people would have to

494
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,680
say, you know, why the heck no?
And sometimes you get people to

495
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,520
go right on and sometimes, you
know, someone would lecture you

496
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,040
about, you know, and how
terrible they they were.

497
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:49,120
But you know, for me, I think my
crossover period, and I don't

498
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,840
love talking about how many
shows I did or didn't go to

499
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,400
because I think it doesn't
matter.

500
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,200
I think people who, you know,
get into the Grateful Dead

501
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,320
today, someone who gets into the
can be just as big a fan as

502
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,800
someone who went to see them in
1967, right?

503
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,040
So it doesn't matter.
But I will say this, that in

504
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:15,840
1993 was my crossover year where
I finally saw more fish shows

505
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,560
than dead shows.
And I was in grad school at the

506
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:19,360
time.
I want to say this.

507
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,720
So I think it was like maybe 31
to 30 or like, you know,

508
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,560
something, something was close.
It was close that year.

509
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,520
And then I kind of drifted into
into, you know, over to fish.

510
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,720
It was a lot easier again
because they were around and you

511
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:41,160
know, I thought the, the the
Grateful Dead kind of sell off a

512
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,520
little bit of a precipice.
I think you could still still

513
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,560
they, I think they were, in my
opinion, and a lot of people

514
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,440
disagree with me, I think there
was still a lot of cool music

515
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:53,040
being made in 92 and 93.
But by 94, even a year later, it

516
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,880
wasn't the same.
And 95 was a little bit was a

517
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,880
little bit rough.
Yeah, you can.

518
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,160
You can hear it.
You can hear the, the, the

519
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,360
frailty.
And I mean, it's sad.

520
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,400
I mean, I have a hard time
listening to and I again, call

521
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:08,840
me crazy.
I have a hard time listening to

522
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,520
dead concerts after like after
the late 80s or you know, I was

523
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,080
in the late 80s.
It's kind of hard.

524
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,840
I, I kind of stopped listening
at like 8586 is really when I,

525
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,080
when I, I usually hang out close
to like the early 70's, the pig

526
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,920
pen era with a lot of the Blues.
And then and then there was the

527
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:33,440
90 like golden era with man that
that come to Nassau show with

528
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,280
Brandon Marsalis and that that
was just like, and then that

529
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,520
Boston College 1, I think was
80, maybe 89.

530
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,120
And that we also had the
awesome.

531
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:46,880
It started with the Franklin's,
with the Franklin's Slipknot.

532
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,880
And oh gosh, I'm losing my mind.
I'm I'm exhausted.

533
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,640
But the point is that like
these, these shows are like you

534
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,000
have gems within them.
But I felt like a lot of them,

535
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,120
you could detect that like the
like, Jerry's kind of falling

536
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:02,520
apart and the band is getting
tired.

537
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,920
The one thing I would say
though, right is that I would

538
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:10,440
vouch 100% for like spring of 90
and they released spring of 90

539
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,640
as a box that because Bobby
loves spring of 90.

540
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,800
Yeah.
I mean, I think that the dynamic

541
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,800
between Brent and Jerry in
particular during that time is

542
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,720
really, really, really strong.
And unfortunately, I was at this

543
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,520
his last, I was at the last run
of shows at Tinley, at Tinley

544
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,280
Park, you know, July of 90.
And then that was that and then

545
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,440
it changed.
And then by the way, you know,

546
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,960
Vince was OK.
I think they didn't give him an

547
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,080
they didn't want him to play
AB3.

548
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,880
And so his sound was a was a
little lighter and some of that

549
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,560
wasn't his fault.
But Hornsby was great in that

550
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,000
band, right.
So there's still some really,

551
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:53,840
really good 9091 into 92 and
then Bruce moves on to other

552
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,520
things.
But I loved hearing, you know,

553
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,120
it's sort of like Harkins back
to Keith.

554
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:00,640
Like I loved hearing Bruce on on
a big old grand piano with that

555
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,240
band.
And I think he really energized

556
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,480
the group for a little while and
then and then it was just only

557
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,360
Vince and Vince was OK, like,
you know, and it was fine.

558
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,360
I remember I used to see him in
Todd Rundgren's band and the

559
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:14,960
tubes and he was OK.
He really was like, I don't want

560
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,520
to disparage the guy.
And I do think part of it is

561
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,040
they wouldn't give him what some
people were looking for from

562
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,400
this, from a from a sound
perspective.

563
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,840
But back to 90, like there's
some cool stuff in 90.

564
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,640
There's some, there's some cool
stuff in 90 and some cool stuff.

565
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,040
I would say again, 91 when, when
Hornsby's really, really

566
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,280
driving, driving the train.
Yeah, yeah.

567
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,000
And then they introduce a whole
new bunch of Dylan songs in that

568
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,120
in that era too, which was a lot
of fun.

569
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,480
And when I paint my when I paint
my masterpiece would turn out,

570
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,120
you know, would, would, would
kind of become a Bobby Weir

571
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:51,280
special.
But yeah, I so, so viewers, so.

572
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,080
So how would you kind of try to
explain the flavor of fish

573
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,080
relative to Grateful Dead?
Because I think that people try

574
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,280
to, people tend to lump them
together unless you know one of

575
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,520
their types of music and then
and then everyone kind of

576
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,160
changes their mind.
How would you kind of describe

577
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,960
the difference?
And then I'll have a follow up I

578
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,760
want to hear about after.
Well, let me just say this

579
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,920
though, I think if you abstract
them out in a lot, it depends

580
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,120
how far out you know you're
looking from.

581
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,560
From from 10,000 feet, 10,000
miles.

582
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,600
Listen, they're both bands that
that that improvisation, right?

583
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,160
Right.
But from someone that wouldn't

584
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,400
know the difference, like if you
were to describe the different

585
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,920
style, you're like hey, if you
like XY and Z music, more fit

586
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,920
for you.
If you like XY and Z, the Dead

587
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,000
is for you.
I mean, I think I think the the

588
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,040
Grateful Dead Harkin more truly,
if you think about it, the sort

589
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,480
of traditional Americana music,
right?

590
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,680
And Jerry was a was a bluegrass
banjo player.

591
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,880
And that's where, I mean, that's
what's really, really cool.

592
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,920
That's what's fun.
If you listen to like early

593
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,160
Warlock Slash, Grateful Dead,
like Jerry's like a banjo player

594
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,440
playing electric guitar.
He is and it's it's really,

595
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,760
really interesting.
And in fact, Bill Lash was not a

596
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,560
bass player when he started.
And so they're all right.

597
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,960
And and again, Bobby is 17 and
they're all kind of figuring it

598
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,880
out as they go along.
And that's the cool.

599
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,520
I think that's why the Grateful
Dead became their own Organism

600
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,280
and sounded like nothing else.
But I do think that if I'm

601
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,160
thinking about where they come
from, I do think it's sort of

602
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,680
like old timey American Music,
except then they psyched.

603
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,880
They add that psychedelic side
to it because they were

604
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,880
psychedelicized with the Merry
Pranksters and Kesey at the at

605
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,480
the acid tests and what and what
came out of it.

606
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:41,560
So, but fish on the other hand,
for both bad, no, for for

607
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,240
better, not for worse.
They come at it in the 80s and

608
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,960
they're very hyper aware of all
the music that preceded them.

609
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,080
And you can hear it, you can
hear the teases, you can hear

610
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,520
all of those aspects.
So they come out of much more of

611
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,120
an arena rock background, even
though they liked a lot of other

612
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,080
things.
But but because of that, they're

613
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,600
a little bit more bombastic.
They're a little bit more ironic

614
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,680
because they're playing against
everything that came before them

615
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,280
and they're aware of that.
I think some of the reason why

616
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,880
people, you know, think their
lyrics are a little bit silly

617
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,440
early on is they're just
responding to what was happening

618
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,240
at the time.
And they like Napa and Tom

619
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,800
Marshall is his own, you know,
is a, is a quirky, you know,

620
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:31,440
very tall man, you know, but so,
I mean, I, I think you know,

621
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,360
that they're, they're both
products of their, of their time

622
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,400
in, in many, many respects.
I think that's the main

623
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,600
difference.
But I think, you know, fish,

624
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,240
especially early on, they're
emerging from like that 70s

625
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,520
arena rock realm, Grateful Dead.
They're coming out of really the

626
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,720
acoustic music and the and the
beginnings of rock'n'roll and

627
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:55,760
rockabilly, you know, in the,
you know, from the 50s as that

628
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,920
crossed into the mid 60s.
Yeah, that's a great, that's a

629
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,480
great description.
And the other thing I wanted to

630
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,560
bring up because you've
mentioned it in passing, but I

631
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,960
actually, it's such a fun little
tidbit about this community.

632
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,880
You mentioned that you were like
going to these shows while

633
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,960
you're in Graduate School.
There are so many brilliant

634
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,080
people and across so many
industries that just gravitate

635
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,360
towards this.
And like, and I've noticed this

636
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,080
because even in my own life,
people I meet that, you know,

637
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,200
you could be a mortgage broker,
you could be an industrial

638
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,280
psychologist that deals with
lawyers and, and lunatic bankers

639
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,640
all day.
You could be, you could be a PhD

640
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,400
or a history teacher.
And like, you can be a

641
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,440
basketball player, you know, you
can be an NBA player and you

642
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,160
can, you know, and, and like,
and, and it almost feels like it

643
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:50,080
like their type of language
translates over to a particular

644
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,120
type of, to people with a
particular type of, of thought,

645
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,880
You know, that, that, that like
to play, like to experiment,

646
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,560
like, to like, to break
boundaries and like, break

647
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,440
things and then see what comes
and build up from it.

648
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,240
And like you said, a lot of
times the music wouldn't be the

649
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,160
best music you ever heard, but
would be meaningful or it'd be

650
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,240
emotional or just be fun and
like, and, and, and everyone

651
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,880
would be OK with that.
And I mean, that's what the dad

652
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,600
would say, often would say like,
Hey, man, like the audience is

653
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,080
as much as this as we are.
And you know, some nights it's

654
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,520
going to be fun and some nights
it's not.

655
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,600
And so it's going to be pretty
and sometimes going to be ugly,

656
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,920
you know, but, but I think
though that the fact that the

657
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,360
that so many different types of
individuals across so many

658
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,760
different industries, but seem
to have one thing in common.

659
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,840
And that's the love of this
experimentation.

660
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:38,320
Sure.
You know what's interesting?

661
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,000
I was just thinking of this now
when when I used to see the

662
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:42,760
Grateful Dead as the Grateful
Dead.

663
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,040
Like to me, there's other bands
that the Grateful Dead ends in

664
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:46,960
95.
If I'm doing that semantically,

665
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,840
like to me, there's no question
in my mind, right?

666
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,160
But in in the Grateful Dead
days, no Internet, so you

667
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,240
couldn't really commune.
So I think it drew a lot of

668
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,840
really bright but idiosyncratic
people who would go out and find

669
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,200
their own tribe.
And I found that in Grateful

670
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,240
Dead, lots in Grateful Dead
shows, like people who didn't

671
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,440
quite, who had, who didn't
quite, I don't want to say fit,

672
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:13,800
but chose to maybe operate
outside.

673
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,960
And, you know, by the time Fish
came around, the way that I met

674
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,920
a lot of people, I talk about
jambands.com, the way I met them

675
00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:24,920
was through rec dot music dot
fish, these Usenet news groups,

676
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,440
right, that existed before the
World Wide Web.

677
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,719
And so by the time they get to
fish, and also there was a

678
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,239
Grateful Dead 1, though I think
it was Grateful Dead, Dylan and

679
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,400
Fish I think were the first 3.
And they were mostly college

680
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,120
students because who else would
have used that account really at

681
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,199
that time, unless you were there
was also the well, which was its

682
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,000
own thing, basically based out
of San Francisco.

683
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:50,360
But, you know, over time, the,
the, I think the Grateful Dead

684
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:55,280
served to foster community of
really thoughtful individuals

685
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,160
who were drawn to, like you
were, like you were saying,

686
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,960
improvisation and things that
were not standard and things

687
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,560
that challenged you
intellectually and, and, and,

688
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,480
or, and emotionally, frankly,
you know, who, who were out

689
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:10,480
there?
And then you could find other

690
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,600
people that were like that and
you could find them at your

691
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,480
local head shop.
You know, to the extent that

692
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,400
back then there were plenty of
head shops, now, not so many.

693
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,440
And all that was like part and
parcel of the experience when

694
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,680
fish came around.
Really, they are a product of

695
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,440
the Internet.
That's how people found, that's

696
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,480
how fish became popular in many
respects.

697
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:26,960
Not entirely.
I take nothing away from the

698
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,760
music, right?
Ultimately, it's about the

699
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,200
music.
In fact, that's, you know,

700
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,040
that's our, that's our tagline.
It's about the music and relics.

701
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,880
But you know, but, but you could
communicate with people other

702
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,600
places and you could go out
there and say, hey, I'm coming

703
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,880
down to, you know, Texas for the
weekend.

704
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,560
You know, just can you recommend
some restaurants or whatever

705
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,040
we'll see out there the drink
before the show or whatever, or

706
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,680
this, this or that.
Or just you could come in with

707
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,760
people who you knew had the
same, who were approaching

708
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,840
things the same way and maybe
they couldn't find anyone around

709
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,440
them.
Now you find a lot of community

710
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,120
in a wonderful way online in any
number of places.

711
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,680
But during Grateful Dead years,
you couldn't.

712
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,400
And so you would see all these
really, really interesting,

713
00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:10,920
bright, thoughtful people at the
shows.

714
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,040
But I will say this.
So I met a lot of people like

715
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,080
that and they would, you know,
they would just, they wouldn't,

716
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,240
they wouldn't look like your
average, you know, they dress a

717
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:22,840
little bit differently and, you
know, they just carry themselves

718
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,440
their own way.
And then I saw the Grateful Dead

719
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,320
at Madison Square Garden in New
York and I would see a bunch of

720
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,880
people coming to the shows in in
suits and ties because they were

721
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,000
working on Wall Street and that.
And I would think to myself,

722
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,880
these guys, you know what's
going on here.

723
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,600
But they were some of the
biggest dead heads you could

724
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:41,840
see.
Of course they were.

725
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,120
But initially I was sort of
thrown by that.

726
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,000
And I would see them do some
amazing things.

727
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,720
Some of these, some of these
dead heads and three piece

728
00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:52,080
suits, they would bring in their
briefcase and I'll be like, oh,

729
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,360
I guess they're coming from work
and they open up the briefcase

730
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,080
and they'd have they'd have beer
in there.

731
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,800
They'd have like, well, and
they'd get through security

732
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,040
because they would be like, OK,
there's some dude from Wall

733
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,320
Street with his briefcase.
And then even they'd be cracking

734
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,240
beers passing them along.
I don't know.

735
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,040
So maybe there was a time where
I came in with a little bit of

736
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,640
stereotype and then eventually,
pretty quickly, I came around to

737
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:13,600
everything.
You're saying.

738
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,880
It's there.
You know, we are everywhere, as

739
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,720
they say, as they, as they.
And it's true.

740
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,920
And, you know, people in all
walks of life who are doing any

741
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,040
number of of of of fascinating
things are drawn to this music.

742
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,520
Yeah, yeah, I think it's and I
think this actually speaks.

743
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,280
I, I, I, I've noticed that
someone pointed this out to this

744
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:38,320
out to me and I've really seen
it kind of everywhere that the

745
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:44,360
most creative, the most creative
periods are when people are a

746
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,720
particular group is going
through a particularly hard time

747
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:50,000
and they're trying to, you know,
I either work through something

748
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,240
or work themselves out.
And I mean, you know, Blues

749
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:57,480
being as it was in the 50s and
60s was for a reason, You know,

750
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:02,520
like the whole counterculture
existed because of how repressed

751
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:07,080
society was at that point.
And you could kind of still even

752
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:08,360
track.
What's really cool is that you

753
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:15,200
can kind of track that tradition
of of embracing the fact that

754
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,240
you're kind of minority in your
own little world in your own

755
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:21,840
little way, not even in a
completely apolitical way, just

756
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,960
like, hey, like, you know, I'm
just having a hard time trying

757
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,800
to make my way through life in
in the subsequent music.

758
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,040
But jamming, see, or improv
seems to be a common theme

759
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,280
throughout all of it because the
jam world has really has really

760
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,400
expanded just beyond what
originally it was jazz and then

761
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,680
the diet and fish.
I mean, now, and we've and I

762
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,160
mentioned this to my e-mail,
Billy Strings is the bluegrass

763
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,240
jam, you know, the jam grass or
you have Sturgill Simpson or you

764
00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:52,040
have Chris Stapleton, like this
kind of bluesy or country type

765
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,320
of style.
And I think it's kind of become

766
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,440
indicative of individuals that
feel like they like they just

767
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,840
have to express themselves.
And I think for a while, and

768
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,120
unless I was just not exposed to
it and I missed it, I feel like

769
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,680
there's a little while or people
got comfortable with, you know,

770
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,880
like, I think for especially
like in the jam scene, I can

771
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,920
come became like pop jam, like
jam became a pop cultural

772
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:21,040
phenomenon rather than out a
consequence of some kind of need

773
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,760
to express yourself, you know.
And So what we think is a is a

774
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,720
divergent.
It's kind of branching off all

775
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:28,160
over the place in a really cool
way.

776
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,400
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think on some level, right it,

777
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:37,520
it both ebbs and flows in terms
of, you know, the nature of do

778
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,120
artists want to explore this?
I think that's, you know, again,

779
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,760
I found a jambands.com 28 years
ago.

780
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:45,960
So I've seen I've seen a little
bit of this here.

781
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,520
But I do think also it is above
all else a reflection of the

782
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,840
times and where where we are and
how people are seeking out

783
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,360
whatever they're seeking out.
And I think Billy Strings I

784
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,080
think is a product of people
wanting something real.

785
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:03,800
Well, real, his lyrics, his
lyrics just have been like, I

786
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,640
haven't been blown away by
lyrics like this in a very, very

787
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,760
long time.
The renewal album and and Hwy.

788
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,320
prayers, just a renewal in
particular at this moment.

789
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,200
You know, I'm listening, I've
been listening to cover to

790
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,840
cover, you know, for for months
now.

791
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:27,800
And there's such, it's such a
it's it, it feels someone took,

792
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,480
someone took a spirit, someone
took an old American spirit and

793
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:35,000
just like plopped it into this
kid from Michigan and, and he's

794
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:36,960
just channeling it.
It's just, you know, Van

795
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,200
Morrison used to say, you used
to say like he was writing.

796
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,480
I read an interview when he was
writing, writing at when he's

797
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,240
coming up with astral weeks.
He's like, that wasn't me.

798
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,880
He's like, I'm sitting there and
I'm strumming and I'm talking

799
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:48,640
into a recorder and I'm making
things up.

800
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,160
And then all of a sudden, like
something comes out of me that's

801
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,920
just a deep channel.
And it just, and it just flew.

802
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,200
And I just, and I just happened
to catch.

803
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,200
I'm just, I'm just a catcher,
that's all, you know?

804
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,360
But give him more credit than
that.

805
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,080
Listen, I I think also he's
willing and committed to doing

806
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:05,560
that.
I think sometimes it can be

807
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,280
difficult for him.
Yeah, I just right.

808
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,160
I just spoke with him for our
last issue and he talks about

809
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,680
like, listen, he has stage
fright, you know, before he goes

810
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,440
on think he has a lot of self
doubt about what he does.

811
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,320
But I think pretty much
everything you get from him is

812
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,000
pure.
Like he's, he's willing to to

813
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,600
share that in any, you know, in
in some manner, shape or form.

814
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,200
I think he conveyed that even
when he's not talking to the

815
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,200
audience or directly, or you
could know nothing about him

816
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:35,600
really.
You don't have to read an

817
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,960
article about Billy Strings to
get that something special is

818
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,320
going on.
And he is presenting himself in

819
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,280
a very honest and real way.
And so was I.

820
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,240
Listen, I was shocked as hell
that that, you know, that it's a

821
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:52,120
bluegrass.
There's no, it's a bluegrass

822
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:53,520
band.
It truly is.

823
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:54,960
It's not a new grass.
You know what I mean?

824
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,560
Like it's dead on.
But you know, they're taking it

825
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,880
out there and that they, you are
so popular.

826
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,280
Like there were so many people
who were drawn to it.

827
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,720
And all I could think of is that
they were responding to what you

828
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:09,120
just described.
The fact that he's laying it out

829
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,800
there, he's putting his body out
on the tracks and he's being

830
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:17,600
real at a time where that's
lacking to some degree in in

831
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,800
human discourse.
And I it's such a lovely thing.

832
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:21,400
And it's hard.
It's hard.

833
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,640
It's it's, it's, I think that
people appreciate it because

834
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,440
it's really, really hard for
everyday people, day-to-day

835
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,400
people like myself or maybe
yourself to like, if you have

836
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,000
something weighing you down to
just like be vulnerable and just

837
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,760
ex and, and, and completely
express it with your being, you

838
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,080
know, with your voice, with your
hands, with your body language.

839
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,600
It's a very, it's a very
uncommon thing to do for most

840
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:45,880
people.
And I think it's incredibly

841
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,880
cathartic when we all gather
together and experience that.

842
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,120
And that's one of the view that,
that's why I, I encourage

843
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,720
everyone just get out, go to a
freaking brewery and hear a

844
00:42:56,720 --> 00:42:59,800
cover band for an hour or for
half an hour, Go do something

845
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,920
with other people around.
Because like we need that, you

846
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,000
know, it's, it's something that,
that, that's so fundamental and

847
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:09,440
we have so many easy ways of
getting away from it.

848
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,160
You could stream every concert
on nugs.

849
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,280
You could go to, you know, like
you could, you could go to a

850
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,520
million different websites and
not and sit in your backyard and

851
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,240
not talk to anyone and listen to
all this music.

852
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,600
Then what are you?
But then what are you doing?

853
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,240
You know, like you're missing
out on that.

854
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,000
Well, I mean, listen, that's
still lovely, you know, and

855
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:26,840
maybe you're somewhere where you
can't, you know, you're

856
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,040
somewhere that geographically
speaking, I want to I'll defend

857
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,760
that.
I'll defend the heck out of just

858
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,640
that print.
But but having said that,

859
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:36,880
there's nothing like being
there.

860
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,120
And in fact, I'm later this
week, right.

861
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,520
Again, not that this is tied to
I just interviewed right Rob

862
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,080
Barocco, who was in Phil Lesh
and friends and a lot he was in

863
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,560
the dead for a period of time
and he has a span skeleton crew

864
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,040
and skeleton crew has a big
beefy organ, which he plays.

865
00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:57,840
It has Barry Slash, who was in
Bobby's band at the end on pedal

866
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,640
steel.
And it has this Hawaiian slack

867
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,320
slack key guitar player.
And I was just saying to someone

868
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,080
who this morning like they're
they're somewhere near me later

869
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,160
this week and I'm like, well,
that I can go see because that

870
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:12,960
scratches a lot of itches for
me.

871
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,800
And it's well and good to watch
something They've done a really

872
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:21,360
cool thing on on on YouTube
where they go from this this

873
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,800
this Hawaiian slacky song into
the Grateful Dead Slipknot, into

874
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,200
a Dave Brubeck cover, into a Rob
Derocco song.

875
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,840
And it all flows and it's really
amazing and it's great.

876
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,600
And I've listened to it a couple
times, watched and listened to

877
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,280
it a couple times over.
But there's nothing like being

878
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,880
there with the band, with the
people around you, giving

879
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,880
something to the band, getting
something back and just having

880
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:47,520
the waves of sound, you know?
You know, I think it's both

881
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,000
mental, it's a most it's mental
emotional.

882
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,440
I think it's also physiological
in some way with the the nature

883
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,400
of the sound waves.
So it's good.

884
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,240
It's you know, that's good
eating.

885
00:44:58,240 --> 00:44:59,880
Do what you can get out there,
see some live.

886
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:02,680
Music and the lights, man, I'm
telling you when you're, when

887
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,760
you're listening to a great jam
and the light and, and, and the

888
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,080
lights seem to reflect the tone
of the music and like, I don't

889
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,240
even know that that music even
had a color tip, but it does,

890
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:14,960
you know, it's, it's, it's so
cool.

891
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:20,440
It's so much fun.
I wanted to ask you now, oh man,

892
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,640
do you want to talk about
relics, relics or do you want to

893
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,560
talk about about the actual, I
guess, ticket market?

894
00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:30,160
First, well, how about this?
I'll just say this real quickly

895
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:31,560
about relics and then we can
move back.

896
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:32,960
You know, not that I love
relics.

897
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,840
I've been here for a while.
But listen, you know, we, we've

898
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,520
been a print magazine.
We started in 1974 by, you know,

899
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,800
Les Capel and Jerry Moore, they
were Grateful Dead fans.

900
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,040
They wanted, they started it as
a means to facilitate tape

901
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,280
trading at a time when it
actually wasn't entirely kosher.

902
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,680
The Grateful Dead had not fully
given it their that not fully

903
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,560
signed off on it.
And so that's how it began.

904
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,640
And then over time it has
evolved.

905
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,880
And now we certainly, we love
the Grateful Dead.

906
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,880
You know, we just put out this,
you know, this 60 year hold on,

907
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,120
I have one on my coffee table,
right.

908
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,600
We put out this, this, you know,
60 years of the Grateful Dead

909
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,520
experience, which is a stand
alone.

910
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,760
It's 160 pages about the good
old Grateful Dead.

911
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,840
And it's all, you know, it's,
it's have there's a lot of

912
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,200
wonderful images and articles
for the record, but it really

913
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,040
reflects, you know, sort of the,
the heart of what we've been

914
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,120
over the years.
And in fact, on the back cover,

915
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,920
inside back cover, that's our
our first, that's our first, the

916
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,680
first relics cover from 7:00
when it was dead relics.

917
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,040
But so this is very much a part
of who we are.

918
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:48,400
But hold on one second.
You know, it was great.

919
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,160
Like, this is our our last issue
is this is my cover story,

920
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:53,360
right?
It's Billy Strings who does

921
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,400
this, you know, just a great
image.

922
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,400
You know, Billy.
Yeah.

923
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,240
So I think we we honor the
tradition and we've tried to

924
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:05,680
bring it forward with the music.
I'm really, really proud of what

925
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,960
we've been an amazing team of
people who are all in on it.

926
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:13,720
It's a challenge to keep a print
magazine going in in 2026.

927
00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:15,840
I'll say that.
You really have to want to do it

928
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,400
and you have to believe in it.
And of course, we still have all

929
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,400
sorts of things happening
online, but it's been it's been

930
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:22,440
great.
Listen, I, like I said, I

931
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:28,160
started jambands.com in 98.
I start there was AI created

932
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:33,480
with my friend Peter Shapiro, an
event called the Jammies when he

933
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,360
was the owner of wetlands
preserve.

934
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,080
And through that, it was during
that time that I merged into

935
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,680
into relics world.
And I've been there for, you

936
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,800
know, 25 years or something.
And it's doing a bunch of other

937
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:50,320
things too, by the way.
Yes, picking up stuff the

938
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,160
people.
This is my book with Peter Music

939
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:54,800
Never Stops, which is which is
just.

940
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,440
I highly, highly recommend it
for people who are.

941
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,720
Where to put the link up for
sure you know.

942
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,480
For for people who are into the
scene but also want to learn

943
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,960
more about concert promotion and
the like.

944
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,280
I mean, it's really he's I
pushed him.

945
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,040
I pushed him to to write this.
I'm the I'm the width on there,

946
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,240
you know, video with Dean
because just from hearing him,

947
00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:25,080
I've heard him talk about his
business a few times a day since

948
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:29,280
1997.
And he just has, he just has so

949
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,720
much wisdom and he's really done
things for the right reasons.

950
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:35,520
I'll say this.
I don't know anyone who works

951
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:40,280
harder, any promoter who works
harder when he has a sold out

952
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,200
show.
Most promoters would be like,

953
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:44,600
OK, my work's done.
The show's sold out.

954
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,440
Peter's like, well, who can we
get?

955
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,560
Who, who wants to be a guest?
Who can we bring on?

956
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,920
What kind of sit insurance can
we do to surprise people?

957
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:55,640
And he does time and time and
time again and he really, you

958
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,120
know, he just takes a really
righteous approach.

959
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,840
And I think in that book he
talks about every grateful dad.

960
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,520
He has a lot of relationships
there, how he came about all the

961
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,600
things that he did.
And I'm really super, super

962
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,280
proud of it.
But that's sort of maybe, you

963
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,120
know, and Peter's our publisher,
Ed Rehlicks.

964
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,840
He was a part of the team with
myself and some of the people

965
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:17,960
who came in in 2009 when the,
the, the person who had bought

966
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,560
it around 2000 decided to move
on.

967
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,800
But anyhow, if we're going to
talk about ticketing, that's

968
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,480
even though it didn't happen in
this order, I think that's sort

969
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:30,040
of transitional in that at least
from the content standpoint,

970
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,400
that book talks both about music
and about the the concert

971
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,240
industry and how it how it came
about.

972
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:38,600
But but yeah, also I did write
this other book which I'll pick

973
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,280
up please here.
Please do.

974
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,520
Oh, by the way, I'm sorry, I
don't mean none of them.

975
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,400
We're not just looking behind me
because they're on my shelf.

976
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,240
This is a book that that that I
wrote.

977
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:53,360
Might as well.
Might as well.

978
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,840
It's a novel basically about
what it was like to be in the

979
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:01,600
Grateful Dead, the Grateful Dead
lot scene, let's say in 1989.

980
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,200
Can you just that is in case
anyone doesn't know what that

981
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,720
is, because I know what that is,
but that's I know a lot of fun.

982
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,080
Sure.
I mean, I think there were, you

983
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,880
know, it, it takes the
perspective or of seven or 8

984
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,160
characters who are the types of
people you would meet outside

985
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,400
and inside a Grateful Dead show.
And there's one other part of

986
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:27,440
it, which is this on on October
14th, 1989 at the Meadowlands.

987
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,840
I think it would Brendan Byrne
Arena in New Jersey, right,

988
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,840
right across, right across the
line from from, from New York,

989
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,280
you know, right outside New York
City.

990
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:42,720
There was a guy named Adam Katz
who mysteriously died outside a

991
00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:45,920
show outside there.
And I was there that night.

992
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,800
And I can say definitively that
that night was one of the

993
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,880
weirdest.
There was a vibe like I've never

994
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,960
ever experienced like, and not
in a good way at a grateful

995
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,120
ditch.
I can't even I you know, I don't

996
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,880
not someone who like feels a lot
of vibe and thinks that there's

997
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,560
something in the air.
But there was that night and

998
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:11,960
that's always stuck with me.
And then around 2016, right

999
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,760
around the time actually a fare
thee well.

1000
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,120
I'm like this.
I got to do something with this

1001
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,200
and I was thinking about the 50
years of the Grateful Dead.

1002
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,800
And so I wrote this novel,
which, you know, which, which

1003
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,800
talks, which I'm pretty happy
with it.

1004
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,280
I don't know.
I'm not even trying to sell it

1005
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:27,720
now.
It's been, it's 10 years old,

1006
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,760
but I don't know.
But, but, but it does, you know,

1007
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:32,400
it was next to what I was going
to show you next.

1008
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,040
But you know, I think it
captures the the spirit of the

1009
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,360
of the things.
By the way, Oh, sorry, God.

1010
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,000
Please, I want you to take me
into the I want you to take me

1011
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:45,040
into or describe the parking lot
scene before and after the

1012
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:46,960
concert a little bit.
For anyone that wouldn't know,

1013
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:48,880
can you kind of paint like a
word picture of like what a

1014
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:50,960
typical scene would look like?
Well, what I would say is this,

1015
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:52,160
right?
This So there's like a character

1016
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,240
in the in the book called Bagel
Bob.

1017
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,960
And there'd be a Bagel Bob
everywhere, some dude who'd been

1018
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,880
on tour since the late, you
know, early 70s or late 60s.

1019
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,840
And he have a ton of wisdom, was
a little bit loopy, you know,

1020
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:05,720
because he'd been at it for a
real long time.

1021
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,160
And he was pure and he was true,
but he wasn't always there.

1022
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:14,120
And that's OK, you know, But he
was just part of the, he was

1023
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:16,520
just, you know, part of the
whole experience.

1024
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,760
And there were bagel bobs there.
You know, there's a taper in the

1025
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,000
show because tapers.
You know, I was a taper for a

1026
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,040
period of time for fish, not
really for the Grateful Dead.

1027
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:26,760
I started during during fish
times.

1028
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:28,880
And they they think of the shows
differently.

1029
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,120
They conceptualize them and they
need to be in earlier so they

1030
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,680
can set up and they deal with
people around them in a slightly

1031
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,840
different way.
And then there was a young

1032
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,120
person who was coming to his
first show and we talked about

1033
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:44,240
like a like a someone in his
late teens who was in a, you

1034
00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:46,880
know, in a prep school in which
I was not for the record.

1035
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,680
And so it's not about me, you
know, a prep school in, in, in,

1036
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,280
in the New York area around that
time and what that experience

1037
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,840
was like for people.
There's a mother with a young

1038
00:52:57,840 --> 00:52:59,200
daughter.
There are a lot of different

1039
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,280
people.
And they were just part of the,

1040
00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:04,960
you know, part of the whole
carnival, the, the fabric of

1041
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,640
the, of the experience in I
don't know.

1042
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,640
I again, I haven't picked it up
for a while, but the, it was

1043
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,560
very cathartic writing it.
I think it's pretty good in the

1044
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,760
sense that it captures, I think
those people and that time which

1045
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:24,840
it which is long gone.
And it does, in my opinion at

1046
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,600
least, hint out what I think
happened to Aaron Katz, which I

1047
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:29,000
think he was killed by a
security guard.

1048
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,320
Although in my book it doesn't
exactly happen.

1049
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,640
That's not exactly the way that
it ends.

1050
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,240
Because, you know, Quentin
Tarantino can, can save Sharon

1051
00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:40,040
Tate.
So I can save, I could save Adam

1052
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,880
Katz.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I I though

1053
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,840
the only other like big
community, you know, the big

1054
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,800
kind of fest, festival type
disaster is that famous Stones

1055
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:56,080
concert at the at the Raceway
Ultima Ultima yes, thank you.

1056
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,080
And under my thumb is it was at
the date of the documentary

1057
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,840
about that.
That was, that was also like a

1058
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,600
heebie jeebie, kind of like
people call that like the end of

1059
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,560
the end of the 60s, end of
summer of love, like, you know,

1060
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,320
and, and everyone kind of just,
and like there's a wait.

1061
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,200
I don't know if you ever saw the
footage of like the Grateful

1062
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:15,600
Dead.
They're like getting arriving

1063
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:17,680
via helicopter.
Jerry's wearing this like

1064
00:54:17,720 --> 00:54:20,600
ridiculous, like drug rug, like
kind of like purple like rug

1065
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,160
thing smock.
And they're like, and someone

1066
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,400
like tells him, Hey, Hell's
Angel just killed the guy.

1067
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,480
And they're like, that doesn't
sound right.

1068
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,120
We're not going to play.
And they just turn around and

1069
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,800
get back in the airplane and go
home and helicopter and go home.

1070
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:37,880
But like, I, I, I as far as
heebie jeebie goes, I hear, I, I

1071
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:39,600
think, what was the other thing
you would have showed me?

1072
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,160
Before I got to now they get to
think about it, right.

1073
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,920
So yeah, because this is
whatever show and tell time,

1074
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:47,240
because we happen to be there in
my office.

1075
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,000
I mean, I have a couple of my
own Jam Man books.

1076
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,400
I don't really care about those
right now.

1077
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,080
They're there and I'm not proud
of them, but whatever.

1078
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,280
You know, this is the book I did
with John Popper, which I think

1079
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,920
captures like, you know, Blues
Traveler and like the Horde era

1080
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:04,880
and Wetlands called Second Blow.
It's gonna blow and other

1081
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:05,960
stories I'm not supposed to
tell.

1082
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:11,880
OK, So that's out of, I mean,
again, that's ten that came out

1083
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:13,760
around the same time.
I bring it up for people who

1084
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,280
want to who really into sort of
the Horde scene.

1085
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,640
John Hopper founded Horde from,
you know, with Blues Traveler.

1086
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:23,720
He was the owner of Horde and it
talks about again, Wetlands, the

1087
00:55:23,720 --> 00:55:28,440
coming together of the jam band
scene in the 1989 and onward.

1088
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,920
And it's really he's a really
sharp, bright, bright guy.

1089
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,240
But we're talking about
Ticketmasters is the one that

1090
00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:35,480
you were getting at earlier,
right?

1091
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,080
Yes.
You know, again, I tell you what

1092
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:43,280
I wrote this with my friend Josh
Baron, who at the time we were

1093
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,840
both we were part of both part
of the team that resuscitated

1094
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:52,840
relics in 2009.
And truly I wanted to answer one

1095
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,680
question at the beginning, why
are ticket prices so high?

1096
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,080
That was really it.
How did we get here?

1097
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,840
And to answer it, that that
answer is a, you know, is a, is

1098
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:06,320
a 400 page book.
And it talks about the rise of

1099
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:10,480
computerized ticketing before
Ticketmaster, how Ticketmaster

1100
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:14,360
came to be the rise of the, you
know, how independent promoters,

1101
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:20,200
how they drifted and became, you
know, what eventually was Live

1102
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:24,000
Nation and where that leads.
And it talks about the rise of

1103
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,880
StubHub and the impact of that
on the market.

1104
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:32,080
And the, and truly, because you
know the band that did more,

1105
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:36,240
there's no question about this,
the band that did more for the

1106
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:41,120
for its fans than any other band
without question when it comes

1107
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,200
to ticketing is the Grateful
Dead, right?

1108
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:44,800
They had their own ticket
office.

1109
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:50,720
They fought for 1/2 of the
inventory to the tickets for all

1110
00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:54,240
their shows and they sold them
themselves so that they could

1111
00:56:54,240 --> 00:56:58,600
connect directly and ensure that
their fans, not scalpers, would

1112
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,880
go to the shows.
And by the way, the people who

1113
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,520
worked for the Grateful Dead
ticketing were so committed to

1114
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:08,280
it that if they thought that
somebody was trying to game the

1115
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:12,320
system by submitting a second
order under another name, they

1116
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,680
put the envelopes.
You got to get self addressed

1117
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,600
stamped envelopes.
They put them on the floor and

1118
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,000
look at them.
And if the handwriting match,

1119
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:24,040
they'd shut them out.
I want to make, I want to

1120
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:27,040
emphasize, by the way, how it,
how extraordinary the grateful

1121
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,560
to how this was for the Grateful
Dead, because the way ticketing

1122
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:35,200
works and it, it's work now
truly ever since the rise of

1123
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:39,680
Ticketmaster, you know, in the,
in the early 80s is Ticketmaster

1124
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,040
enters into a contract with the
venue.

1125
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,000
And as part of the contract,
Ticketmaster has the right to

1126
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:51,520
sell 100% of the tickets to the
venue to, to, to the shows at,

1127
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:52,880
at the venue.
Essentially, you know, they're

1128
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,680
the little thing carve out.
So let's call it, let's call it

1129
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,160
98%, but it's, and all of a
sudden there's this other band,

1130
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,000
the Grateful Dead, who said,
there's this band, the Grateful

1131
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,200
Dead who said, well, we want to
sell 50% to our fans.

1132
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:07,600
We don't care about, we don't
care about you, Ticketmaster.

1133
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,960
We've been here longer than you.
We're going to do what we want.

1134
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,240
We believe in this.
And they pushed back and they

1135
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:17,560
fought and they won.
No other band really did that.

1136
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:19,720
The only other band that came
close, you mentioned String

1137
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:22,840
Cheese.
String Cheese also had an issue

1138
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:27,520
with Ticketmaster about about 10
years later where they wanted to

1139
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,360
sell 50% of their tickets to
their fans.

1140
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,520
And what happened?
What happened eventually is that

1141
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,560
Ticketmaster sort of quietly let
them in a settlement that wasn't

1142
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:40,440
that wasn't revealed at the at
the time.

1143
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:45,800
I have a friend that's in the
ticket business and he, I forgot

1144
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,200
which company.
He said it was either StubHub or

1145
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,320
Ticketmaster.
But apparently he said like you

1146
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:55,320
would be shocked how many
tickets they by themselves as

1147
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,000
resellers and just hang on and
then and then and then charge a

1148
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,640
top dollar.
He was like, you know, he goes,

1149
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,640
I have so many stories from
people that I've worked with and

1150
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,520
you know, over the years and
he's like, the ticket industry

1151
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,720
is and you know what I mean?
Unfortunately, you get into any,

1152
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:12,800
a deep enough into any big
enough industry that has any

1153
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,040
kind of regulation, you're
always going to have corruption.

1154
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,440
So like, you know, it's not
nothing new under the sun, but

1155
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:21,880
but you got to leave it up to
fancy able and listen.

1156
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,800
One of the one of the
interesting comparisons is

1157
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,520
someone like Taylor Swift, who
is like has been on like this

1158
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:32,480
enormous juggernaut of a of a
tour the last couple of years

1159
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,720
and the multibillion dollar
tour.

1160
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,920
And one of the biggest
complaints was about was from

1161
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:39,680
her fans.
You know about about the ticket

1162
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:43,800
pricing and it's interesting.
It's, it's really, really,

1163
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:48,640
really tricky and it's not
always easy to solve, you know,

1164
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:53,360
that particular, that particular
problem in terms of what is the

1165
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:57,240
best way, How do you value, how
should you value your fans?

1166
00:59:57,240 --> 00:59:59,840
And, you know, should we let
people who are going to wait in

1167
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:02,560
line physically outside of
venue?

1168
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,360
Should we privilege them?
Should we privilege people in a

1169
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:06,920
fan club?
If you know your tickets are

1170
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,440
going to sell out, It's it's,
it's, it's it's.

1171
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:12,200
Harder, I think, than than it
might seem.

1172
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:16,400
Although Taylor Swift initially,
she should not have put all her

1173
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:20,280
tickets to all those stadiums on
sale at the same time that the

1174
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,120
system was going to crash.
That was destined for failure.

1175
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:26,440
And she could have had a lottery
the way she eventually did to a

1176
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,920
degree later.
There are other ways to go about

1177
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,240
it.
I mean, you know what, I don't

1178
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:34,680
want to, I'm not here to
disparage Taylor Swift.

1179
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,240
I think she wanted to, I think
she wanted to break some records

1180
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:41,040
when she put when she put those
tickets on sale initially for

1181
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,080
the Eras tour in all those
stadiums at the say, the 32

1182
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:46,600
stadiums and the like.
And it's fine, right?

1183
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,960
That's that's, you know, that's
part of her story, I think.

1184
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,680
And I think she takes pride in
the fact that she's able to do

1185
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:54,280
it.
But yeah, that wasn't very fan

1186
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,000
friendly, but we can leave it.
At that Yeah, no, not

1187
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,640
particularly but but also
Speaking of fan friendly.

1188
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,680
But yeah, I know that fish is
fish is famous for their lot

1189
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,360
fish and Broadway shows famous
are famous for their lotteries.

1190
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:08,320
Maybe you can kind of explain
how that worked and maybe and

1191
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:12,360
and and how they created this
festival world because the the

1192
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,760
dead shows became a scene.
You pop up the day before, maybe

1193
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,600
hang out the day after you go to
the next town over there going

1194
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:23,640
and fish kind of introduced this
idea of like a week in Manhattan

1195
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:26,680
or a week and you know where and
that's the famous that's the

1196
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,360
famous example.
But if you can maybe elaborate

1197
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:30,600
on that little bit?
Sure.

1198
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:32,960
Well, listen, I mean there,
there is no question.

1199
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:34,960
I mean, they, they used to, I
will say this about fish.

1200
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:38,760
There was a period of time in
the 90s when like the Grateful

1201
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,960
Dead, they did have their own
ticketing office and it was

1202
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,120
handled by a woman named Shelby
Shelley Culbertson.

1203
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,600
I remember I went there once
once because that she was kind

1204
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:49,160
enough to let me and I I had a
problem.

1205
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:51,200
I think I was going on my
honeymoon actually.

1206
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:55,160
And so she like I knew her OK
through the Internet and she let

1207
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:57,480
me go and then physically pick
some up because I otherwise was

1208
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:01,440
going to be a problem.
But so the the fish in the same

1209
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:06,920
way maybe that their fans grew
up in the Internet era, unlike

1210
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:10,280
the fans of the Grateful Dead,
fish fans did they connected

1211
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,760
that way.
So fish advanced that in that,

1212
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:17,280
you know, fish does have a
lottery that you can sign up for

1213
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:21,080
a few days in advance.
Like I think maybe Taylor Swift

1214
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:23,240
could have, but whatever.
That's why I'm not here to, you

1215
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,640
know, you know, whatever it is,
what it is.

1216
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,920
But so, so fish really sort of
brought that, that, that, that

1217
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:35,520
you know, the, that sort of
democratize that in the sense

1218
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:39,240
that anyone, if you knew about
it, could be, could be, could be

1219
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:43,120
part of it and allowed it to be
randomized in a way that their

1220
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:47,280
fans wouldn't be shut out.
I mean, if you know when the the

1221
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:50,680
beyond sale is, you know, you
can be, you can, you can be part

1222
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,080
of that lottery.
But they also did that again,

1223
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,920
they started out, I think it was
93.

1224
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:58,800
They started out just with taper
tickets because I know that back

1225
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,680
then I was taping shows.
They started out just with mail

1226
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,360
order taper tickets and that
worked out pretty well.

1227
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:08,600
And from there they slowly
expanded into just like the

1228
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:13,280
Grateful Dead, physical mail
order tickets and then 95 right

1229
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:16,720
Grateful Dead, they wrap up
their their ticketing office

1230
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:18,720
somewhat folds.
It evolves into something else,

1231
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,480
but fish then focused online.
And so that's where you that's

1232
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,760
to this day, that's there.
They they've been, you know, I

1233
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,560
think they, again, they're
pretty committed to that, to be

1234
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:30,440
kind to their fans.
And listen, you know, they've

1235
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,960
tried to do what they can.
I think if you look at the price

1236
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:37,280
of other tickets out there in
the market, I think they've done

1237
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:41,520
what they can to make, you know,
to be not unreasonable in the

1238
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,360
face value of their tickets.
You know, things have gone up

1239
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:45,000
over.
Time.

1240
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:46,800
Things are crazy.
Things are crazy.

1241
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:51,960
I mean, I, there's so many shows
I want to see and it's, it

1242
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:54,720
really is difficult for me to,
you know, to at this point, you

1243
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,160
know, in particular at this
point of my life to justify it.

1244
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:02,600
And even though, and even though
I love it and I've been settling

1245
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:04,960
for a premium nugs membership
and just watching a bunch of

1246
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:06,560
live shows, you know, as they
happen.

1247
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,000
And I have a great, and I'll
show you after off air.

1248
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,360
But you know, I got a great set
of my backyard with a projector

1249
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:15,200
and a screen and my, and a
couple of speakers and I have my

1250
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:17,160
buddies come by and we'll just
hang out and listen to some

1251
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:20,400
music.
But you know, I mean, I would, I

1252
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:24,240
would love to go, but it
tickets, tickets have gone are

1253
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:26,440
just nothing.
I'm not sure if it's, if it's

1254
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:30,600
just inflation, if it's demand,
if it's just a new world of

1255
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,680
venues and a new and there's so
many new middle, middle men that

1256
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:39,760
are taking money from the, from
the from the, from the companies

1257
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:44,720
that I'm sorry about that.
Again, that that that maybe

1258
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:47,160
that's just why tickets just
prices are up in general, But

1259
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:49,160
either way it's it's almost
impossible to maintain.

1260
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:53,040
Sure, I mean I would say this.
There's something pretty cool

1261
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:54,920
though about being able to why?
I have a friend of mine in New

1262
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,600
Mexico and he just can't see a
lot of, yeah, not a lot of live

1263
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:00,440
shows that come out anywhere
near where he is.

1264
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,600
So he will get, he'll get, you
know, he'll have the nug

1265
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:06,720
subscription and he'll project
him in his backyard onto the,

1266
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:09,680
onto the side of his house and
they'll all sit there, you know,

1267
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:11,400
have a lovely beverage and enjoy
some.

1268
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:14,680
It's got great speakers, got a
nice setup and, you know, like,

1269
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:16,720
listen, you can't go every
night.

1270
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:18,160
It's, it's a, it's a lovely
thing.

1271
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:20,840
It's a lovely thing, you.
Know Tell me about brewing.

1272
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:24,320
How did you get into brewing?
No, I, I don't, you know what,

1273
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:28,920
I, I will say this that when I
was younger, growing up, there

1274
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:31,280
was mostly just pretty crappy
corn beer.

1275
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:33,880
You know what I mean?
I, no disrespect to, to good old

1276
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,560
American heartland corn infused
beer.

1277
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:40,080
There was nothing very, very
tasty, you know, that one could

1278
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,280
have.
And then as, as the opportunity

1279
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,520
presented itself, I'm like, OK,
I can make something kind of

1280
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:51,200
cool myself.
I remember I went to fishes

1281
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:56,400
festival, the great went and I
made a case of great went wheat

1282
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:59,480
that I gave out and I and it's
in the it's in the there's this

1283
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:01,840
fish book, the fish compendium,
and there's a picture to my

1284
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:03,880
beer.
You know that like that people,

1285
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:07,760
you know that people were into
OK, so to that end, let me get

1286
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:09,440
you, let me grab a relics beer.
I'll crack it.

1287
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:11,160
I'll crack it.
Definitely.

1288
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:15,000
Hang on.
Yes, that's my that's my

1289
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:17,320
predilection.
So I'll tell you the story.

1290
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,440
So here's the beer here.
You're there.

1291
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:23,200
So water.
We're in Florida.

1292
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:24,560
No.
What'd you say?

1293
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:26,240
3 waters in Florida, aren't
they?

1294
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:29,240
They're based in Atlanta.
Atlanta, right, All right.

1295
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:31,480
I'm sure they reach, I'm sure
they reach Florida.

1296
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:34,040
Yeah.
So the idea was I wanted, we

1297
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:36,720
wanted to make a beer.
The, the, the the biggest beer

1298
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:39,600
enthusiast, jam musician I know
is Kyle Hollingsworth.

1299
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,600
And I've known Kyle for a while.
And so we wanted string cheese.

1300
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,200
Yeah.
And so we wanted to, we wanted

1301
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:50,760
to make a beer together.
And Wheatwater agreed.

1302
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,280
This was an amazing story.
I actually wrote about it in

1303
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:58,760
three parts and relics.
And they flew us out to, to to

1304
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:03,320
Northern California where no,
no, to Oregon, to Oregon, sorry

1305
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:05,680
to Oregon, where we sampled the
hops.

1306
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:07,680
We went to the hop farm.
This is the beginning of the

1307
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:09,880
process.
And then we went to the hop farm

1308
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:11,440
and then we sat around the
table.

1309
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:14,320
None of us, we none of us had to
drive and we would.

1310
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:17,560
We would just drink a lot of
beers that had a strong flavor

1311
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:19,960
of each of the kinds of hops.
Sure.

1312
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:21,840
So amazing.
I've never done.

1313
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,880
I'd love to do this again.
Kyle and I talk about this so.

1314
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:26,720
Near you, You have a ton near
you.

1315
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:27,680
That's.
Fair.

1316
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:30,120
No, no, that's fair.
What there's a There's a million

1317
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:32,680
hop farms you can go to in that
area and they're delicious.

1318
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,560
Northeastern beer is awesome.
All right, now, that's fair.

1319
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:36,320
That's fair.
Listen.

1320
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:41,880
So I, I was like, yes, so we do
that.

1321
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:44,000
That was the first step.
Then we went down.

1322
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:47,480
Then we came up with the recipe.
We, we obviously worked with the

1323
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,360
person who was the head, you
know, the, the head of of at was

1324
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:55,200
in charge of that at Sweetwater.
And we went down there and we,

1325
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:59,120
we made some samples and then we
went down again and we drank the

1326
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:02,000
samples and then we threw a
party and it was awesome.

1327
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:04,920
And the one thing I said was, if
we're going to do this, I don't

1328
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:07,040
just want this to be something
you can have on tap anywhere.

1329
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:09,080
I mean, that's great, but let's
make this special.

1330
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:13,120
And so you could get this, I
know up and down the East Coast

1331
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:16,600
it was called Ground Score and
love it.

1332
01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:19,760
I have a few of them left.
I haven't, I haven't.

1333
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:22,640
It's an IPA.
I, you know, I know for a while

1334
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:26,000
they were in fashion, but for
me, I just love Ipas because I

1335
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,040
just love that hoppy.
When I was growing up, truly

1336
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,640
when I was starting to drink
beer, there was nothing very

1337
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:34,279
flavorful.
And to me like this, the the the

1338
01:08:34,279 --> 01:08:37,640
flavor of hops is what really
what what does it for me.

1339
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:41,840
If you ever come down to South
Florida or else I could ship you

1340
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:47,319
some some local brews here, We
have like within within 2025

1341
01:08:47,319 --> 01:08:48,920
minutes of the Fort Lauderdale
airport.

1342
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:54,520
There's probably a half a dozen,
8, 8 plus out of 10 breweries

1343
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:57,359
that are just out of this world.
And I did a couple of podcasts

1344
01:08:57,359 --> 01:09:01,760
with the with, with the owners
and there's so much that's also

1345
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,880
such a fun world.
The people are so authentic and

1346
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:09,000
nice and, and whoever's there is
there because they want craft

1347
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:11,439
beer, you know, like it's the
same reason, like it's a similar

1348
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:14,040
thing to the music world.
Like you're there because you're

1349
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:16,000
there for a particular type of
thing that you like.

1350
01:09:16,319 --> 01:09:20,319
And man, if you, if you, if
you're coming down, great.

1351
01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:24,720
If not, I'm happy to send you a
customized, you know, so 4 to 10

1352
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,359
pack of different types of
Florida Ipas that I think will

1353
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:31,560
blow you away because we make
great beer down here.

1354
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:34,920
Fair enough.
Listen, I buy it.

1355
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:36,200
So here we go.
Cheers.

1356
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:39,200
Cheers, cheers.
I haven't.

1357
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:42,479
Like I said, it's a little bit
so you know, right.

1358
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:45,800
So Ipas were created so that
people could drink, you know,

1359
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:49,240
when they were when they were at
sea, so that you know, like when

1360
01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:51,000
they were at sea to support
themselves when they couldn't

1361
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:53,439
drink the water.
So you know an IPA is going to

1362
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:56,760
last longer than others people
like.

1363
01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:59,440
So this, this beer at this point
is.

1364
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:02,080
Oh boy, don't check the canning
date.

1365
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:07,120
Salt, it's three years old, but
but it's I'm sure it'll just be

1366
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:08,520
mild.
It won't be.

1367
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,960
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
I'm curious how much how much

1368
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:15,400
the how much the hop flavor has
has changed or not though.

1369
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:20,520
You know what you can taste?
It actually tastes pretty good.

1370
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:22,680
Like it's not, there's not a
kick to it.

1371
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:24,880
It's like it's, it's close to a
Dippa, right?

1372
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:26,760
It's close to a double IPA.
Yeah.

1373
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:29,000
What's it close to 7 percent,
8%?

1374
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:31,760
Actually it's 7.1. 7.1 There you
go.

1375
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:33,560
Beautiful.
It's not quite as strong, but it

1376
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:37,200
smells good, you know, not my
plan, no way.

1377
01:10:37,440 --> 01:10:40,800
When I woke up this morning,
this is not I, I had no, no

1378
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:43,960
thought that I'd be doing this.
I have a couple left, but you

1379
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:44,720
know.
Happy.

1380
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:45,880
I'm so happy.
I'm honored.

1381
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:48,200
Do you remember the hops that
you liked?

1382
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:52,680
I have the recipe.
It's Citra.

1383
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:56,080
It was Citra.
It was Citra is the one that I

1384
01:10:56,080 --> 01:11:02,040
know that's in it.
I also found out later that they

1385
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:05,680
never could have.
It was not very, it's not very

1386
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:10,000
cost effective to make this beer
because it was so hoppy that the

1387
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:13,880
hop farm donated the hops
because they knew because we,

1388
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:17,120
we, we wanted something that
really had something to it.

1389
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:21,800
And it Crosby Hop Farm is the
name of the hop farm.

1390
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:26,520
And no, it was great.
And Kyle is really, really cool,

1391
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:28,760
loves beer.
He does, you know, he does beer

1392
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:32,400
events out in Colorado sometimes
he'll do beer events before and

1393
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:37,000
after a string cheese show.
We nearly maybe one day, we

1394
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:39,880
still talk again about doing one
more beer together.

1395
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,160
We came pretty, pretty close.
But he's a great guy to hang out

1396
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:45,520
with and he's fun and he's, you
know, that a great sense of

1397
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:47,760
humor.
And eventually they'll get him

1398
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:50,000
to people, get him to play.
There'll be a piano in the thing

1399
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:51,960
or he'll do a show around the
event.

1400
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:55,880
But we did this together again.
It's legitimately still still

1401
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:58,440
pretty good.
And that's that.

1402
01:11:58,440 --> 01:12:00,160
So that's, yeah, that's.
I love it.

1403
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:04,440
I think it's great.
Are there any other styles that

1404
01:12:04,440 --> 01:12:07,640
you've adventured into?
Because I I've gone from Ipas to

1405
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:11,600
sours to stouts, and then I've
gone back to loggers now and I'm

1406
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:15,440
back into like the light logger
game after I probably lost, I

1407
01:12:15,440 --> 01:12:18,400
quit drinking Ipas about a year
and a half ago and I probably

1408
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:20,600
lost 25 lbs since then.
Look at that.

1409
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:24,840
I do get that big difference.
I do get that I'll be honest and

1410
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:27,240
people will I'll set myself up
for criticism here.

1411
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:32,360
To me, sometimes like sours just
felt like, and I know that that

1412
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:36,640
the amount of thought and effort
and that went into them and it's

1413
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:41,040
like a science experiment a bit,
but I, I just didn't really care

1414
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:44,680
for those personally.
You know, I, I don't, you know,

1415
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:47,520
I, I don't, I don't mind
something a little bit heavier.

1416
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:50,120
If we're going to make something
like a, you know, like a stout,

1417
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:51,760
that's cool.
I respect everything that goes

1418
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:53,040
into it.
And you know, there have been

1419
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,440
times, not recently where you
can, you can have a stout for

1420
01:12:55,440 --> 01:12:58,000
like a lunch that's like a meal.
You know it done, right?

1421
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:02,520
Yeah, 5 days.
But you know, but but I get I

1422
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:05,360
bet a lager is light and
refreshing on a nice warm day.

1423
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:06,040
Why?
Why not?

1424
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:09,480
I mean to me at this point, if
I'm having a stout next.

1425
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:11,400
You guys should do a stout next
for sure.

1426
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:13,600
Don't do another IPA.
There's too many Ipas in the

1427
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:14,280
market.
Do it.

1428
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:17,320
Do a stout, do a seasonal 1
where like you could stick in a

1429
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:20,320
barrel for a couple of months
and then you could throw some

1430
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:23,480
like nice winter flavors like
chocolate or coffee or, you

1431
01:13:23,480 --> 01:13:25,240
know, vanilla beans or something
into it.

1432
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:27,320
Man.
Do you have some great breweries

1433
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:28,680
near you?
I mean, you're, you're, you're

1434
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:31,440
if you're in Rhode Island, I
mean, you're in Massachusetts.

1435
01:13:31,440 --> 01:13:33,160
I mean that.
Have you been to a tree house?

1436
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:34,960
You know they are.
Listen, it's great.

1437
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:36,280
They're awful.
No.

1438
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:39,720
Yeah, and I saw the Dark Star
was playing there.

1439
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:42,640
I almost bought tickets because
Dark Star was playing in one of

1440
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:46,440
their locations.
And then and Derek Trucks is

1441
01:13:46,440 --> 01:13:49,760
playing that the night before in
Bethel Woods.

1442
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:52,000
And I was going to take it, make
it, make a little road trip out

1443
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:54,760
of it.
And I bought the Derek Truck

1444
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:57,920
tickets to convince myself to
go.

1445
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:03,480
And then my wife said no.
And then I gave the tickets to

1446
01:14:03,480 --> 01:14:07,400
my dad.
So now my dad, I bought tickets.

1447
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:12,640
My dad has been to String
Cheese, Springsteen on Broadway

1448
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:18,080
and and Derek Trucks now and
they're all my tickets that I

1449
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:20,280
had to give him.
Well, that's very generous of

1450
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:22,160
you.
Does your dad, does your dad

1451
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:23,800
come out like in terms of his
music?

1452
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:25,760
Is that it, is he when he goes
to those things, is he

1453
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:28,560
discovering something or is that
sort of reflecting some of the

1454
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:31,240
stuff that he listened to at
some point in his in his life?

1455
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:35,360
He's.
With so with String Cheese and

1456
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:38,040
with and with Eric Trucks is
totally new to him.

1457
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:41,040
I mean, the Allman, The Allman
Brothers vibe and that sound is

1458
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:43,840
more familiar to him.
He grew up more of like a pop

1459
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:45,640
80's rock kind of guy in Miami
Beach.

1460
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:48,320
So a lot of Springsteen out of
Billy Joel, a lot of Fleetwood

1461
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:50,520
Mac, a lot of like the pop rock
at the time.

1462
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:54,440
But great listen, great, awesome
music and music I grew up on.

1463
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:57,480
Yeah, I tried to, you know what?
I'm trying.

1464
01:14:57,480 --> 01:14:58,840
I'm trying to, I'm trying to
teach him.

1465
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:01,840
I'm teaching one bit at a time.
He has a house and here's a

1466
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:05,040
little log cabin in the in the
mountains of North Carolina.

1467
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:07,200
So he's by Asheville quite a
bit.

1468
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:09,480
And I'm like, there is a lot of
great music.

1469
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:11,800
There's always great beer and a
lot of great music in Asheville.

1470
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:14,560
And you should and you and and
and it's a shame that he doesn't

1471
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:17,080
go to more, but I'll get him.
I'll get him there.

1472
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:22,960
I meant to ask you also along
the way as as my podcast has

1473
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:27,600
been kind of coming along, what
are some of your experiences

1474
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:29,760
dealing with some of, you know,
it's interviewing, meeting and

1475
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:32,320
becoming friends with some of
these like, you know, incredible

1476
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:35,600
musicians and people that you, I
don't know if you'd consider

1477
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:38,280
them that way, but that people
would often consider heroes of

1478
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:40,160
theirs, you know, what's that
like?

1479
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:44,040
What I would say is this the the
most interesting part of that

1480
01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:49,920
has been watching people who
were young when I first met them

1481
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:54,680
and maybe were not very well
known, and then seeing them in

1482
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:58,200
contexts and fully appreciating
what other people think of them.

1483
01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:00,640
And whenever I tell this for the
first one that comes to mind is

1484
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:04,000
like Eric Krasnow right from
Sola, people come crazy.

1485
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:05,920
There's a lot of things he's
done stuff with Bill Lash and

1486
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:08,520
this and that over the time he
came up to me.

1487
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:13,360
I was at, I think a Grey Boy All
Stars show in Cambridge at the

1488
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:16,320
very, very first House of Blues.
And the very, very first House

1489
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:18,360
of Blues was like a House of
Blues.

1490
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:20,360
It was like a Juke joint
legitimately.

1491
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:21,920
And then it became something
different.

1492
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:25,160
That's fair.
So you know, then then seeing

1493
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:27,360
when you know, when I know him,
he was Eric and he gave me said

1494
01:16:27,480 --> 01:16:31,400
and he handed me this cassette
from his band that would

1495
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:34,200
lettuce.
But still today, although he's

1496
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:36,560
not really in it.
And they were just, you know,

1497
01:16:36,560 --> 01:16:39,120
Berkeley College of Music kids
they'd met actually as high

1498
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:41,480
school students at the Berkeley
College of Music.

1499
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:43,360
And I'm like, oh, hey, that's
Eric.

1500
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:45,400
Cool.
And then eventually then he was

1501
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:48,360
in the band Soul Live and he was
playing with John Scofield and,

1502
01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:51,320
you know, then they were doing
these bowl live things and now

1503
01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:53,680
he's out in he's a big time
producer.

1504
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:54,920
And so it's been fun to see
that.

1505
01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:57,840
The other person, quite
honestly, who I met when he was

1506
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:01,160
a pre teenager is Derek Trucks.
I think the first time I

1507
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:05,520
interviewed him, he was 19 and
it's been amazing.

1508
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:08,840
I mean, just, and he was
extraordinary back then.

1509
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:12,800
And when he was in the Derek
Trucks Band, he would play at

1510
01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:17,800
this little casino, this free
gig at the Mohegan Sun Casino in

1511
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:19,840
this little free room and that
we would sit at these little

1512
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:21,360
cocktail.
I can remember this very

1513
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:23,520
distinctly 2 years.
We were sitting at these little

1514
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:28,080
cocktail tables and it was
myself, my friend and Derek at

1515
01:17:28,080 --> 01:17:30,280
the time.
It was his girlfriend, it was

1516
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:32,360
Susan Tedeschi.
It was like the four of us were

1517
01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:35,880
just there just up to see Derek.
And then both years we were just

1518
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:38,200
there having, you know, it's
like they're bringing you drinks

1519
01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:40,280
and this and that.
And then she's whispers

1520
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:42,960
something and she apologizes.
She has to get up because she

1521
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:45,480
has to go on stage and sing a
couple songs and then she comes

1522
01:17:45,480 --> 01:17:47,400
back out and she says, so it's
been fun.

1523
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:50,600
I mean, to me, that's always
exciting.

1524
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:52,840
And it takes me by surprise
sometimes when I'm like, oh,

1525
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,280
wow.
And think about Tedeschi Trucks

1526
01:17:55,280 --> 01:18:00,600
Band like they believe, but when
they went out there, they

1527
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:04,200
believed that they could take a
12 piece band, super expensive

1528
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:08,280
on the road and makes and
everyone said that's a bad idea.

1529
01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:12,120
Derek's management said, I don't
know, Susan's management, I

1530
01:18:12,120 --> 01:18:14,800
don't know.
But that's what they heard in

1531
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:17,400
their heads.
And, you know, they're, they're

1532
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:22,920
pretty aggressively going to
follow their muse and they

1533
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:25,280
always have.
And now they're out there and

1534
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:27,480
it's and it's awesome and
they've been able to succeed at

1535
01:18:27,480 --> 01:18:29,520
doing their thing and it's
really, really fun.

1536
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:31,600
I have a lot of respect for
Derek.

1537
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:34,000
And anyway, and all of those
people who sort of came out of

1538
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:38,280
the the Colonel Bruce Hampton,
well, you know, like Jimmy

1539
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:41,760
Herring from Widespread Panic,
like Otil from Dead and

1540
01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:43,880
Burbridge from Dead and Company,
a lot of places.

1541
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:46,360
And even some of the younger
people, some of the younger

1542
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,280
players like Derek's brother
Dwayne, now in widespread

1543
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:51,840
panicked, you know, Jimmy
Herring's son-in-law.

1544
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:54,680
And there are a lot of, you
know, this guy, Nick Johnson,

1545
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:57,360
who's playing with Widespread
Panic now that Jimmy Herring has

1546
01:18:57,360 --> 01:19:00,360
to sit out while he's getting
some treatment for, you know,

1547
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:04,200
for for throat cancer.
He's from the the Colonel Bruce

1548
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:07,320
Hampton school.
And it's just, it's just been

1549
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:10,240
wild.
I remember seeing them and the

1550
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:14,440
amazing thing about about Bruce,
Bruce Hampton is he it's for

1551
01:19:14,440 --> 01:19:16,280
him, it was all about intent,
right?

1552
01:19:16,440 --> 01:19:19,760
And it wasn't even about if the
intent was right, the execution

1553
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:22,440
will be.
And he was pretty famous for

1554
01:19:22,720 --> 01:19:26,680
clearing a room of of an
audience and then waiting to see

1555
01:19:26,680 --> 01:19:30,240
who was who was who was left who
that you believe And I was at a

1556
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:31,320
show.
It is damn it.

1557
01:19:31,480 --> 01:19:33,880
I'd heard this and then it
happened to me at this this

1558
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:36,600
place called night stage in
Cambridge in 89.

1559
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:38,680
And they got up there in the
middle of the first set.

1560
01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:41,760
They played some of the most A
and I thought this was great for

1561
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:44,840
the record.
They played all of this a tonal

1562
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:48,640
just squawking strange and I was
totally riveted.

1563
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:51,240
I want to be clear like that in
and itself was great.

1564
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:54,680
But he cleared the room and
there were maybe, I don't know,

1565
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:57,280
15 or 20 of us left 1/2 hour
later.

1566
01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:00,720
And then they played some of the
most beautiful, sublime music

1567
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:03,600
you could have expected.
And I know that was his whole,

1568
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:07,000
that was his whole thing.
And I don't know, I'm drifting a

1569
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:10,040
little bit from from your
question about what it's like.

1570
01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:14,080
But I will say this, I remember
when Otil joined the Almond.

1571
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:17,600
Brothers Band.
And on that first tour, I, I was

1572
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:20,200
writing at that time for a
magazine called Hit in the Note,

1573
01:20:20,440 --> 01:20:23,320
which was run by The Allman
Brothers Band tour manager Kirk

1574
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:25,320
West.
And so I remember I had AI had

1575
01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:29,560
like 3 or 4 hours with Otil in a
hotel room right outside

1576
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,560
Mansfield, Mass, because The
Allman Brothers Band was playing

1577
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:34,720
at Great Woods.
And we just hung out and we were

1578
01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:38,000
shooting the shit.
And then a few years after that

1579
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:40,240
I had a book release, which I'm
not going to get this book for

1580
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:43,920
my jam bands book.
And Otil played it and it was

1581
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:45,720
just, you know, with his band,
the Peacemakers.

1582
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:47,440
And these things all come
around.

1583
01:20:47,440 --> 01:20:49,080
I don't know.
The one thing that I would say

1584
01:20:49,080 --> 01:20:52,240
is, you know, people are
imperfect.

1585
01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:53,760
You were talking about what it's
like.

1586
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:57,680
I would say for the most part,
what you see is what you get.

1587
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:01,280
What you feel is what you get.
I think a lot of these musicians

1588
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:06,840
who you think they seem pretty
righteous and selfless in their

1589
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:11,560
approach and egoless maybe more
than selfless in their approach.

1590
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:14,400
Then when you meet them,
they're, they're like that in

1591
01:21:14,400 --> 01:21:17,840
many, in many respects.
And you know, and you know,

1592
01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:21,480
don't really always want to want
to talk about any other thing

1593
01:21:21,480 --> 01:21:24,600
other than the music, because
that's just not where their

1594
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:26,040
heads are.
Heads are.

1595
01:21:26,040 --> 01:21:27,840
On the other hand, I can
remember talking to someone like

1596
01:21:27,840 --> 01:21:29,960
Warren Haynes who could be in
the middle of a converse.

1597
01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:32,080
I, this always stunned me.
We'd be in the middle of a

1598
01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:35,360
conversation like at the Beacon
Theater at the Allman where The

1599
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:36,480
Allman Brothers Band were
playing.

1600
01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:38,320
He'd be like, oh, someone say
up, Warren got to go.

1601
01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:41,360
We go, OK.
And on a turn on a dime, go on

1602
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:43,560
stage and just boom, he'd
deliver.

1603
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:45,840
Like he didn't need, he didn't
need, you know, any sort of

1604
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:49,160
meditation time or anything.
You could just step up and start

1605
01:21:49,160 --> 01:21:51,440
cranking from the, from the
gecko.

1606
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:54,480
One other thing quickly about
Warren, because we're going,

1607
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:55,840
we're going, it's fine.
We're going on and on.

1608
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:00,680
And you were talking earlier
about sort of the nature of, of,

1609
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:03,680
of music and sort of happy music
and sad music.

1610
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:06,120
And I remember I've talked to
Warren about this a couple

1611
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:08,600
times.
People ask him why he doesn't

1612
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:11,720
have more happy songs and what
his answer is, is when I'm

1613
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:13,560
happy, I don't want to write
songs.

1614
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:16,240
I just want to live life.
And so it goes back to the

1615
01:22:16,240 --> 01:22:18,360
Blues, right?
When you're writing the Blues

1616
01:22:18,440 --> 01:22:20,280
because you're feeling the
Blues, right?

1617
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:22,280
When you're not feeling the
Blues, he wants to sit around by

1618
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:25,600
yourself writing a song.
And I think you can hear that in

1619
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:28,160
a lot of not all of them, right?
Something like soul Shine or

1620
01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:31,120
other, you know, other things.
But, you know, and I think

1621
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:33,920
that's true and I respect that.
I respect that, right?

1622
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:36,920
Because he he, he asked you what
he's feeling in the moment and

1623
01:22:36,920 --> 01:22:38,920
when he doesn't want it, when
he's feeling good, I don't want

1624
01:22:38,920 --> 01:22:40,680
to write a song.
OK, So you don't get, you know,

1625
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:44,720
not a bunch of happy songs.
Yeah, yeah, I'm OK with that.

1626
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:47,720
Also, by the way, it happens to
be like most of the songs that

1627
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:50,080
are happy are great because the
tunes are happy.

1628
01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:53,000
Not, not because of happy and
not because of incredible happy

1629
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:55,160
lyrics.
You know, like, I don't know, it

1630
01:22:55,160 --> 01:22:57,480
does.
We, we, we, we shift into a

1631
01:22:57,480 --> 01:22:59,480
different kind of state of mind,
I think at that point.

1632
01:23:00,480 --> 01:23:04,080
Can I ask out of curiosity what
Derek Trucks is like because

1633
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:10,280
he's he seems so expressionless
on his music is so is so

1634
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:16,040
expressive and like and he seems
so quiet and so expressed.

1635
01:23:16,040 --> 01:23:17,560
I just want to can I?
I'm just let.

1636
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:21,280
Me say yes this is a great 1.
He is one of the funniest

1637
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:25,600
people.
I'm stunned by this because he

1638
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:28,600
is very taciturn.
He's very focused.

1639
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:30,840
He does not crack a smile on
stage.

1640
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:33,800
I think it's because he's like,
I got a job to do here, man.

1641
01:23:33,960 --> 01:23:35,840
You know, I'm leading this 12
piece band.

1642
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:38,720
I'm focused on music.
But he is, he's got a great

1643
01:23:38,960 --> 01:23:41,120
sense of humor.
He loves to laugh.

1644
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:46,040
He, you know, like he's he's
he's super fun to have the

1645
01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:49,480
opportunity to hang out with him
because he's always, he's

1646
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:52,080
honestly smiling all the time
cracking.

1647
01:23:52,080 --> 01:23:55,320
He's got a great spirit about
him, I guess is what I would

1648
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:57,680
say.
So subdued on stage it's crazy.

1649
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:02,280
I can't think of anyone that I
know that's such a stark

1650
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:06,360
contrast.
Between between the way that

1651
01:24:06,360 --> 01:24:09,360
they are on stage and.
Yeah, I can't think of anyone

1652
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:12,720
that's such a stark contrast
between their stage persona and

1653
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:15,720
what they're like off stage.
Derek is my is my best example

1654
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:18,440
because he is not like how you
would think he would be just

1655
01:24:18,440 --> 01:24:21,200
from watching him.
You know, tight lipped on stage,

1656
01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:26,800
focused on the music.
His Layla Revisited album Lock

1657
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:31,120
In is one of my all time
favorite albums with Trey

1658
01:24:31,120 --> 01:24:36,760
sitting in and they're keep on
growing and was just out of

1659
01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:40,400
control was just I, I and I
didn't know that was one of the

1660
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:43,200
first time I was listening to to
to to dusky trucks.

1661
01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:44,720
Like period.
You know, I just I found the

1662
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:46,600
album.
I just put it on and I I

1663
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,520
remember I was I was going on a
jog and I'm listening.

1664
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:53,560
I'm thinking song after song.
This is just out of control.

1665
01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:55,160
And then I realized it's a cover
album.

1666
01:24:55,160 --> 01:24:57,440
And I'm like, it's a cover
album.

1667
01:24:57,440 --> 01:25:00,240
This is something like what the
heck is going on over here?

1668
01:25:00,440 --> 01:25:03,120
But it's it's it's out of
control.

1669
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:06,440
Good.
I to close out.

1670
01:25:06,440 --> 01:25:08,680
What are some things that we're
looking forward to in the future

1671
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:11,240
and what are some things that
we're hopeful and and excited

1672
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:14,040
about?
Well, you mentioned you

1673
01:25:14,040 --> 01:25:16,000
mentioned you mentioned Derek,
right?

1674
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:20,080
They have a new record that's
that's on the way.

1675
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:23,320
They have their big their big
summer tour that's coming up.

1676
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:27,400
They're doing a bunch of shows.
They're, they're at the they're

1677
01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:30,360
going to be at the Beacon
Theatre in New York for most of

1678
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:32,960
March, which is always fun.
For most.

1679
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:35,120
Of March.
So like, you know, they've sort

1680
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:37,720
of taken up the mantle of The
Allman Brothers Band and that

1681
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:40,120
was always a tradition.
It was really, really fun to

1682
01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:42,320
see, you know, March Madness
with the ABP.

1683
01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:44,080
I'm also a college basketball
fan.

1684
01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:47,000
So you can and you could walk
outside there so you could walk

1685
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:50,920
out during set break, go catch
some games at a bar, like catch

1686
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:53,040
the end of some of the early
games and then walk back in for

1687
01:25:53,040 --> 01:25:54,760
the second set.
That was always great.

1688
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:56,840
I'm not sure.
Well, I don't think they let

1689
01:25:56,840 --> 01:25:59,240
people do that anymore, but it
was you could do that back then

1690
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:02,200
during the ABP years.
So he now that they're basically

1691
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:05,920
taking up most of most of March,
which which I think is quite,

1692
01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:10,880
quite awesome.
Listen, fish is they since they

1693
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:13,320
just announced their tour,
that's on my mind.

1694
01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:15,960
They're they're playing at
Fenway Park, my home baseball

1695
01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:19,600
stadium, which I first went to
as a as a kid and I'm like ever

1696
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:21,360
since.
So for the record, anyone who

1697
01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:23,840
cares, don't the sound, the
sound in the stands is not

1698
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:25,360
great.
You got to hopefully be on the

1699
01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:28,280
field because that place is not
designed really for music, but a

1700
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:30,240
fun place to see them.
And, you know, they're going to

1701
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:33,640
play five nights at Madison
Square Garden, which they don't

1702
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:36,680
normally do during the summer,
just so they can set themselves

1703
01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:40,360
up to play their 100th show on
New Year's Eve, which, you know,

1704
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:42,720
so that's going to be a cool
little run akin to, right.

1705
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:44,560
I think you were, you were
referencing this sort of

1706
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:47,360
indirectly earlier, like the
Baker's dozen when they play in

1707
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:49,560
all those shows.
And that was actually during the

1708
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:54,200
summer at Madison Square Garden.
It's tough by the way, to to to

1709
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:57,800
find slots to play it at MSG
because the Rangers are playing,

1710
01:26:58,000 --> 01:27:00,800
because the Knicks are playing,
because there's any number of

1711
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:03,240
the and the summer tends to be.
It's one of the biggest venues

1712
01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:05,720
in the world.
Yeah, but but during the summer

1713
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:07,080
there's not as much competition,
right?

1714
01:27:07,080 --> 01:27:09,080
There's not as many thing, you
know, you don't have the ice

1715
01:27:09,080 --> 01:27:11,160
Capade, you know the two teams,
you don't have this or that.

1716
01:27:11,480 --> 01:27:15,400
And so, you know, they're the
New York Liberty, I'm pretty

1717
01:27:15,400 --> 01:27:18,280
sure.
So, you know, so it's fun when

1718
01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:22,320
you know it'll be, it'll be a
cool contrast to see fish

1719
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:26,160
outdoors and then indoors.
I like that, you know, sometimes

1720
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:28,720
I think like indoors, I think it
can be a little bit more

1721
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:31,720
intense.
I think some people like

1722
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:34,600
outdoors in terms of the way the
sound sort of flies.

1723
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:37,760
I always thought that was one of
the big differences between

1724
01:27:38,840 --> 01:27:40,800
seeing the Grateful Dead on the
West Coast and seeing the

1725
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:44,480
Grateful Dead on the East Coast
in that a lot of the West Coast

1726
01:27:44,480 --> 01:27:47,600
shows were Amphitheatre shows,
at least 80s and not all of

1727
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:50,960
them, but a lot of them, you
know, shoreline and the like.

1728
01:27:51,160 --> 01:27:54,280
And then a lot of the shows, at
least that I would see would be

1729
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:55,960
indoors where this would be a
little bit more.

1730
01:27:56,520 --> 01:27:58,680
It'll be a little, it was a
little more intense all the way,

1731
01:27:59,080 --> 01:28:02,040
all the way around anyhow,
right.

1732
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:03,960
I imagine aside from that, I'm
excited for, you know, I think

1733
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:09,080
in the near term, right?
Graham Lesch is doing some shows

1734
01:28:09,080 --> 01:28:12,360
at the Capitol Theatre, lovely
Peter Shapiro's venue, going to

1735
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:16,120
do 4 nights with any number of
guests honoring his father.

1736
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:20,960
And I thought he did a did a
wonderful job last year, right?

1737
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:24,040
Including the last night in
which he played with his

1738
01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:27,520
father's old band, like the
quintet, the classic Phil Lesch

1739
01:28:27,520 --> 01:28:32,560
quintet with Warren Haynes and
Jimmy Herring and John Molo and

1740
01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:35,440
Rob Barocco.
And for some of the show he

1741
01:28:35,440 --> 01:28:37,400
played guitar, but for the
second set he played bass.

1742
01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:42,280
And I was just talking to,
again, this is on relics.com.

1743
01:28:42,280 --> 01:28:44,800
It's so moved.
I was talking to Warren about

1744
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:47,000
that Warren's, like, I had no
idea what he was going to be

1745
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:48,880
like as a bass player.
And he was really, really,

1746
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:51,080
really good.
And he, you know, encapsulated

1747
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:52,720
all those ideas that his dad
had.

1748
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:55,080
And it's easy to say, well,
yeah, of course he did.

1749
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:56,720
But you still have to execute on
them.

1750
01:28:56,720 --> 01:28:59,520
Even if you know the ideas, even
if you have them in your head,

1751
01:28:59,720 --> 01:29:02,680
you still have to deliver.
And I think he really put a lot

1752
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:05,000
of time and effort into that.
So it'll be fun to see.

1753
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:07,920
Now this will be the second time
around where he's going to going

1754
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:10,320
to play with a bunch of
different players in March at

1755
01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:11,320
the the cap.
And I love the cap.

1756
01:29:11,400 --> 01:29:13,200
Sounds good, looks good
visually.

1757
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:14,440
That's what I was talking about
earlier.

1758
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:17,760
Such a great venue.
Yeah, I, I went for the first

1759
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:20,440
time there and I, I absolutely
loved that.

1760
01:29:20,440 --> 01:29:22,840
I went to my, I actually went to
1 fish show in my life too.

1761
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:24,920
I went to New Year's.
I went to New Year's concert in

1762
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:29,960
20, I think 16 or 7, I think is
16 to 17.

1763
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:33,120
And my girlfriend at the time,
her, she and her whole family

1764
01:29:33,120 --> 01:29:36,000
were super into it.
I don't even know what I don't

1765
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:37,040
even know what I was getting
into.

1766
01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:38,880
And they're like, you don't even
have to know.

1767
01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:41,680
Just have a good just like, and
I was stone cold sober.

1768
01:29:41,760 --> 01:29:44,120
I, I didn't drink, I didn't
smoke at the time.

1769
01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:48,720
I, I, I, I always, we took a
train from Jersey and just got

1770
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:50,440
in along.
The train was just packed of

1771
01:29:50,440 --> 01:29:52,120
people going from Jersey to the
concert.

1772
01:29:52,480 --> 01:29:56,840
And it was just, it was just a
wild 3 hours of just the

1773
01:29:57,000 --> 01:30:00,280
funkiest, you know, music that
like I've ever heard and the

1774
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:03,000
balloons everywhere and the
balls everywhere and, and the

1775
01:30:03,000 --> 01:30:05,640
lights and, and they're telling
me the light is the, is the, is

1776
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:07,400
the, is the last member of the
band.

1777
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:09,880
And I'm like, I don't even know
what world I'm in, but like,

1778
01:30:10,440 --> 01:30:12,040
this is crazy.
It's so cool.

1779
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:16,640
So a straight normie like me was
able to appreciate that long

1780
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:18,160
before my taste had developed, I
guess.

1781
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:20,920
Listen, I I think that's what
they would they would aspire to

1782
01:30:20,920 --> 01:30:22,880
that, right?
They want to they want to

1783
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:26,760
welcome everyone in under the
tent who maybe doesn't entirely

1784
01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:29,200
yet it they want to bring
everyone on the on the bus.

1785
01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:31,720
But yeah, listen, Chris Corona,
right, fifth member of the band.

1786
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:33,400
He does his thing.
I think, you know, he's been

1787
01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:37,480
there forever and he certainly
knows what he's doing and he

1788
01:30:37,480 --> 01:30:41,560
knows the music so exceptionally
well and can anticipate it in

1789
01:30:41,560 --> 01:30:43,200
ways that are stunning.
True.

1790
01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:48,280
Yeah, Dean, this is so much fun.
So you got to finally connect

1791
01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:50,080
and maybe I hope to do this
again at some point.

1792
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:52,400
But it was so nice meeting,
getting to talk to you and

1793
01:30:52,400 --> 01:30:54,200
hearing some of your thoughts
and experiences.

1794
01:30:54,200 --> 01:30:57,440
And this is this is really
really from the bottom of my

1795
01:30:57,440 --> 01:30:59,320
heart is real treat.
And I really am so happy that

1796
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:01,520
we're able to record and connect
and do this.

1797
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:03,760
Cheers, man.
Let me know if you end up doing

1798
01:31:04,040 --> 01:31:09,720
a another collaboration and and
if you want that South Florida

1799
01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:12,880
beer, I'm more than happy.
I'm more than happy to hook you

1800
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:14,840
up.
Julie Nolan, appreciate it, Sir.

1801
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:16,480
Nice talking to you.
Thanks so much.

1802
01:31:16,480 --> 01:31:17,440
Have a great night.
Take care.

1803
01:31:17,880 --> 01:31:18,240
Take care.