Music Series 5: Dean Budnick / Relix / Jambands.com / Grateful Dead / Phish / Billy Strings

0:01 Welcome to another episode of Come Together. Things should be comfortable with We're live. Welcome, Dean. I'm so happy there's several months in the in the works, but I'm so happy to do this. Yeah, that we were trying and finally we got it done. So here we are. Here we are. So you have, you've done so many wonderful, wonderful things in your in your career. And I love talking to people that turn passion into something, something real. And that's something that they, you know, something that manifested something real. And whether or not it's a business or profitable or whatever, like almost doesn't matter to me as much as the effort and having gone out like out of your way to really pursue something 100% the way that like the best to the best of your abilities.

0:55 And, and it looks like you kind of done that with music and writing and, and particularly with this whole flavor of jam music. And so I wanted to, you know, I, I guess we could kind of go back to the beginning, but if you were introducing the concept of jam music to people, how would you kind of explain it to someone that had never really heard of it? Sure. Well, let me step back and say right. So I founded jambands.com in 1998 and at that time I answered that question a lot. And in fact the reason I founded jambands.com in 98 was because of that very question.

1:36 There were these collection of bands that were out there that were doing something unlike anyone else truly. And there was a community of bands and there were there was a community of fans. And I thought, well, why don't we see what we can do? No one was paying any attention. Rolling Stone wasn't paying any attention. Mainstream media wasn't. If anything, they were very derisive about all of these groups. So I, I started this, this website with, with a bunch of people that many of whom I knew from online and I wouldn't meet for years, years and years. In some instances, a lot of them were very young and then have gone on to do some crazy things in the world, especially in the music space, like Jesse Jarno, who's written books and does the good old Grateful Dead cast and Benji Eisen, who eventually wrote a book with Billy Kreutzmann and now manages Billy and a lot of other artists as well. I'm, I'm drifting from the question. I do understand that, but that's OK, you know, but that's OK. But but ultimately, listen, what I would say is their bands that are committed to improvisation in the live setting, that can't be defined by their fealty to anyone given musical genre genre because they they drift across and they delve into this and that.

3:02 And, you know, if I'd go beyond that, I'd probably say, and, and you know, I've have nurtured a particular community of fans who are, who are, you know, willing to embark on a journey with them on any given night, something akin to that. That's an awesome answer. It's, it's such a great answer because when you meet someone and they're wearing a Grateful Dead T-shirt and you say like night T-shirt or something, they're wearing a fish hat or something like that or one of the doughnut T-shirts or something. And you go and like you make an inside joker reference. Like you immediately have a relationship with that individual. And like, you could be on the subway, you could be in France, you could be skiing in Switzerland. It doesn't make a difference everywhere you go. And then there's a, there's the recognition that, hey, like we kind of like this far out thing together. Like this is cool, you know?

3:51 There's nothing like that truly, when you have that, when you have that shorthand, when you have that language. And I even think about it like fish actually manifested that in a very real way in the 90s when they had their secret language. And so the idea is they, they, you'd see a show and they'd be in the middle of the jam and they, they play a little cue for the audience and everyone simultaneously would go dope. And if you walk into the show, you're like, wait, what? And, and also, I think you'd think that's really cool. How can I, how can I be a part of it? Like it, it never was distancing everyone. It was like a prank that you could be a part of if you didn't know anything about it, But then you were welcomed inside and they would often explain or the people around you would explain during set break or after the show.

4:38 So there really was sort of that, that, that collective sense of, of community with a little bit of a wink. I think, you know, you see the Jam fans have a, I think a good sense of humor and more often than I think, you know, we understand what maybe that maybe some people aren't totally down with what we're into and that's OK, That's OK, that's cool. We could be self effacing about it. I my my first, my first live J Rad show, Joe Russo's almost Dead. That's how I actually, I, I discovered them before I even discovered the dead because they did an awesome cover of Springsteen's Atlantic City that just blew my mind. And I was a huge Springsteen fan. And then I heard the band's version. I was like, that's pretty cool.

5:20 And then I heard J Rad and I'm like, what is this? This is so great. And then my friends, like, if you think that's good, he's like, check out the music that they're covering. And I'm like, what are you even talking about? He's like they're cover band. You know, it's pretty awesome, but they would love they would love to hear that. Like I think that that they would say, well, that's what we're trying to do. Like they don't want to be limiting in any manners. They're just making music, you know, it's interesting. Be cool. I I just interviewed Tommy Hamilton from that band. I think it's up on. To view him, I've been driving his press person crazy. It's up on it's up on relics.com. People can check it out. But but the one thing I said to him was at the beginning, right? He was a Grateful Dead fan from when he was very young. And Joe Russo knew nothing about the Grateful Dead, but eventually was invited into the band further with Phil Lesh and Bob Weir.

6:10 So he learned their catalog. But the three other guys in the band were had knew nothing essentially about the Grateful Dead. So but so the three other guys in the band knew nothing about the Grateful Dead. And you could hear it, I think in the music. They would they would every night. They would just take things not at all anywhere near what the Grateful Dead did. They were just finding their own way. And when you when I asked Tommy about this, I'm like, listen that that was true at one point. What happens when the other members of the band actually learned about the have learned about the Grateful Dead after all the time? Does that impact what you do? And he's like, no, you know what? We're just five friends hanging out. He said, if we're not making it, we, we'd be doing this on stage with Grateful Dead quotes. And then if you see us backstage, we're doing it with film quotes.

6:55 And that's just who we are. What you're seeing on stage is US55 dudes trying to make each other laugh and try to go. And I, I think you've got that. And so I think it's awesome. And I think he would think it's awesome the way the way you came to it. Yeah, it's super cool. I was listening to them the other day. I was coming back from the gym and if the South Florida traffic is just out of control, terrible. And it was a 20 minute drive that turned into an hour and 40 minute drive. And I'm sitting in the car and thankfully I have AJ on me and I put on AJ rad concert and and I'm thinking to myself while I'm listening, I'm like, it sounds like they're painting a tapestry, a canvas, like a tapestry. And like, and like you could see as they set up each song like they're they're going into music never stopped. And like the whole introduction was like a like a couple of minute long.

7:46 Like it just felt like they were setting the stage. It felt almost like a Broadway show. Like, you know, you're going to like introduce different aspects and then you're going to and then and then different instrument instruments come in and like, and music is always obviously very associated with with imagery and lights and stuff like that. And that's such an integral part of the of all. Like, you know, these jam these live shows and I just, I, I, I kept on thinking about how visually magnificent just the music was and how strange it is that like, that's the way I'm translating it, you know, It's really, really cool. Yeah, no, they're not. By the way, that's also, I would, I would encourage anyone to see them at a place like the Capitol Theater if you can. Oh, Chester. So that that was great.

8:27 It's just a great. Match of the visual, because the visuals there are really, really elevated and the music you get on the stage for them, yeah, yeah. The first time I went to them was at an outdoor concert in Connecticut. I think I was it's called there's a bowl there. I forgot what it's called, but then the second W you W you, yes, yes, yes, that's right, the music bowl and and they had a sax player with them and and they also so talk about inside jokes. So I'm at this first show and like I I'm pretending like I know what I'm talking about and I was really excited. I was hoping to play China cat. I know your rider and they opened with with Scarlet Begonias and then I'm talking to someone and I'm saying, hey, man, I hope they play this.

9:09 He goes, yeah, you know what song comes after Scarlet the going news? And I'm like, no. And like I felt like like I felt like it was such like a softball answer and I just and I just missed it. And then he just like laughed and smiled. He's like, man, he goes, keep listening. You're going to have a great time with this. And like, I thought that was like so nice. It was so cool to kind of just see that experience, you know? That's right. And for the record, like there's no reason to think they're totally going to go into fire on the mountain every time out of scarlet, because that's what Jay Rad does. I'm not saying, you know, they didn't that night. I'm not saying they won't most nights, but I honestly that the beauty of them is you, you can't necessarily expect that the way you could for better, I think, and worse with the good old Grateful Dead.

9:51 I mean, you know, there's there's a majesty to the way the dead would build that. And there's some extraordinary ones that that that, you know, but but at some point, I think some people would feel it became a little ossified. I might, I might question that on the edges, but I, you know, I get it. On the other hand, who kind of doesn't want to hear Scarlet Fire by the Grateful Dead? But but you know, but J Rad isn't always going to do that. Well, I feel like if I'm, if I'm going to be a musician in the spirit of the dead playing their music, I would say, man, that doesn't have to be a rule. You know, like, let's see where the music takes us and like, and and and they do that and like, you know, like it like you say it is. There's something incredible about about that build up and about the transition songs that they play.

10:35 But there's something also really cool about like a totally, you know, just like little twist stone in there that you have no idea where it's going to come in. As a musician, it's probably a lot more creatively satisfying to be able to do something like that, I imagine. I do think that the sticking with J Rad right? I do think that they're they don't feel obligated in any manner, shape or form. You know who else didn't Phil Lesch towards the end of his career, towards the end of, you know, it's in the PO in the fill and friends era. He would take it a lot of Bobby Weir would take it a lot of different places. By contrast, and this is not a criticism. If you go see Dark Star Orchestra, they're going to deliver over something a lot, a lot closer. I mean, listen and to some degree they're going to actually interpret a specific night.

11:15 They're going to give you the Grateful Dead set list through their own lens. It's not note for note, which is what I remember when they started. I someone told me that's what it was. I'm like, well, that seems counter to the idea of the Grateful Dead. And that is not what they do at all, by the way. But but they're going to say, you know, you're probably going to get a scarlet, an amazing scarlet fire from that. I I just think there are different ways at it and everything, you know, I like to say foreign follows function. And so in certain contexts, you know, maybe it's going to happen, maybe it's not, you know, maybe it'll be a discovery, maybe it won't, but it still can be awesome. But there's all all of those things entwined or what make for for a quality evenings entertainment. Definitely, definitely.

11:56 I wanted to get some of your thoughts because I read your article about Take a Step Back with Bob Weir and Bobby Weir, and he just passed about a month ago. And, you know, it's fine There always. It always felt like there's so much depth to him that wasn't being said. And there is. And, like, talk about, like inside jokes. Like, it always felt like he constantly looked like he was having an inside joke with the entire world. And one of my favorite interviews with him was that I saw of him was when he was talking to Jerry and they asked if and the interviewer asked if fame had changed them. They're like, yeah. And he's like, I'm sure, you know, this is like, you know, the pistachios on these three really, really hard to open. He goes, we didn't even bother with those anymore. We just throw them right in the garbage. And like, there's something that was so, like, down to earth and real.

12:46 Can you maybe speak about him or you know, I mean you, I'm sure you've had a lot of personal interactions with him, right? I did listen. The thing about Bobby is he was always Bobby, like you would see him in any context and he would be, he owned, he owned who he was in a major way. And I, you know, and, and I think that's really part of the beauty of him as, as a creative person, as someone you'd interact with. There are times it could be really quiet and then he would just lay in with something really, really funny. I, I would, you know, I, I interviewed him. I've been with him when he was around other artists, like backstage at shows, and he was really, really concerned assistant with the way and he was like that on stage as well. He always had that, that wry sense of humor. I'll tell you this, we haven't announced this yet, but I'll announce this right here, right now. You know, our next relics cover is going to be into a Bob Ware issue, right?

13:40 And as we're as we're thinking about it, we're looking at the images that we want to have on on the cover and all of them or Bob with just like this, right, Different eras, right. He has this just wry little smile on his face. Like it's not like he's pulling one over on the world. It's like he's pulling one over on people who don't get the joke. And there are so many people who get the joke with him and everyone else. You know, I know for a fact he'd say like a, you know, FM if they if they can't take a joke. And he always had that spirit, which I think really was pretty, pretty marvelous. And I think over time too, after Jerry passed, I think he took on new responsibility in that there was a time when, you know, with his band Rat Dog, he wouldn't play any of Jerry's songs.

14:28 He would just play his own music, which makes would certainly make sense. And then he did that even initially after Jerry passed. But at some point he's like, you know what? We got to keep this music alive. We had this has to be a living breathing thing. And then he started playing, you know, some great, some great Jerry music. And it was, it was I thought, thought, and I just thought it was selfless. He didn't write those songs. He's sharing them with the world and he just believes in in what they can, in what they can offer. And the other thing I'll say, because you mentioned that that essay, right? Jerry passes on on August 9th, 1995. It turns out that I'm at that time, I'm in Cambridge, MA and Bobby, we already, I think was playing a show up at the Hampton Casino. Not not the venue in Virginia.

15:13 There's a smaller venue called the Hampton Casino up in actually, the one in Virginia is not a casino. It's Hampton, whatever, Hampton Amphitheater, Hampton Coliseum, that's what it is. This one's Hampton. I don't know. This one's Hampton Casino in in, in up in New Hampshire. And we had no idea. Is Bobby going to is he going to is he going to play tonight? Is he not going to play tonight? And I think he just thought it was his duty. And he said that at the beginning. And it, I wouldn't say it was musically the best night of the best night that I'd ever heard. But emotionally it could have been the deepest. And you could see it in his eyes. You know, he was working through it and trying to be there for everyone in the midst of a lot of heavy thoughts.

16:00 And in that instance, too, right, everyone around you in that in that play, it was probably my God, is it's a 2000 capacity, you know, room. Everyone in there was there for the right for that reason, because and they wanted to commune together. And Bobby was facilitating that and not telling a lot of stories, being a little bit, you know, light in that regard, just delivering music, but occasionally acknowledging, you know, what everyone must be thinking. I don't know. It was really, really heavy. And I give him all the credit in the world for for for doing that. And he canceled the tour after that and then pick it up a little bit later. But it was, it was, it was extraordinary to me what he was willing to do in that moment and what he facilitated in that room.

16:44 Totally. And you know what? And and there's something else also, I think, and maybe there's just a feeling that I'm getting and I'm I'm just totally making it up. But it, but I do feel like, especially in the last decade or two, there's a real transformation and like wisdom, I think that he seemed to embody also like he was, you know, like you watch old videos or concerts and he's like, I, I, I, I, I, I think of him as a cosmic cowboy, you know, and then, and then like as he gets older, he kind of turns into more like a cosmic kind of prophet cowboy, you know, and like I and like, it was interesting because when I, when I heard knew that he died and like he seemed like he was relatively healthy, relatively recent, you know, I think he played just a couple of months earlier at was the 60th anniversary in Golden Gate. And, you know, and I just thought to myself, like, there's no doubt in my mind that that like that guy's depth of consciousness is so deep that like, I'm sad that he's gone, but like, there's no way he's in a worse. Like he, he, he's like, he's still laughing. Like he's still, like, he still knows. He still looks exactly what's going on, you know, And I feel like that's what the case is.

17:56 Well, I, I tell you what, I interviewed him once. He was talking about Jerry, and he sort of doesn't believe in death in many respects. He thinks that, you know, that there's some enduring spirit and he would dream about Jerry and very much believed that they were in communication. So he had all that, you know, to bring back. Plus, think about this, though, in terms of Bobby, right? He starts he's a teenager when when they start out and he's like. He's. Taking a lot of acid, by the way, he's taking a lot of acid at at 17. And I, I, you know, everything you hear about him and he doesn't talk about this really very much later in life. Like there are periods of time where he doesn't really talk, you know, he's just like processing. He's like dosed and processing the world in the middle of this intense psychedelic music and experience in the totality of it.

18:48 And so I, I just think that obviously, right, that informed his, his worldview. And I think, you know, over years, all of those experience sort of a Crete and it it it he blossomed into what he became sort of this, I don't want to say all, all knowing, although at times he felt like it, but you know, just this spirit who really had a handle on the world and, and what it meant and his place in it. Because I think, you know, you can have a handle in the world, but maybe still not maybe not have a handle on your place in it. But I feel like Bobby had it, just like I said earlier, like Bobby is always Bobby. It's really and it's awesome. It's awesome. Yeah, that's really, really great. It's such a it's such a great way to be remembered, man.

19:30 Like of all, you know, like of all the things that you can say, like to say that someone was really authentic to themselves is such a rare and beautiful compliment that, you know, I, I think that it's high praise and I think he deserves. I think he should be living up to, I'm sorry. I think that he lived up to it rather, I think his entire life was that what's what do you think of John Mayer and what do you think is the future of the band now? Complete speculation. I'm not asking you for anything that you know. You know what, I will say this, I think John Mayer gave a lot of himself to in terms of time and energy to to debt and company to keep that going at a time where he obviously had his own career. I think he believed in the music, he believed in the relationships and wanted to facilitate that and look at what it, look at what it became.

20:20 And the thing the thing I really appreciated and respected about what John did is he did not try to sound like Jerry all the time, right. It was not a Jerry clone in front of the band he brought. It was a little more Blues based. You know, it harken back a little bit to the Pigpen era. Not always, but that was really at the heart of John's playing historically before he became, you know, the pop icon that I guess he still is. But so listen, he did it. He didn't have to. He liked the people. He liked the music that was happening. What will happen move? I'm it's a great question and I could be wrong about this. I don't think I don't think they'll be dead in company anymore, right? I think that maybe John will do some one offs or maybe some festival gigs where he revisits the catalog because I think he's passionate about the catalog, but I don't believe that he's just going to bring in somebody else to play rhythm guitar and sing those songs.

21:17 I, I think he knows that just feels a little bit off. But again, I, I think he's passionate about the, the music of the good old Grateful Dead. And I think we'll see him do more of it, but in a different way. I just I also can't get over how well he plays craw genre. I can't get over it. Like I mean like the guy, the guy loves me. Like you could see he breathes it, you know, and, and, and I mean, and I've gone through like different phases where I'm trying to learn about different types of music. And every single time John Mayer's name pops up as like a deep track, like secret gem that you wouldn't know is like incredible, that genre. And I'm like, this guy's everywhere, man. So like, yeah, I mean, you probably gave 10-15 years to the dad or to the to the to the dad and company.

22:04 Just about a little overwrite. So that's fairly well was 2015, right? Yeah. And so dead and company was 2016. So a decade, right. It's a decade of his career really the peak career. I think a lot of people would say in terms of songwriting that he will and all of that stuff. I mean, I do think it certainly wasn't mercenary because when he started, like that wasn't the move to make. He was doing OK financially, right? He didn't need to do that to him. He did it because creatively it scratched an itch for him. And I think he continued to do it because it creatively scratched it for him and he liked the people who were part of it as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I mean, who doesn't, I guess who does it? I want to, I want to talk to you.

22:44 There's actually so many different ways to go. Do you want to talk about fish or do you want to talk about let's talk about fish? I want to transition. So historically, I guess timeline wise, great. Jerry Garcia dies 95. You start jam bands right around them. I actually meant to ask you it. I mean, the Dead had really peaked in the popularities in the late 80s, early 90s. Were people writing off other forms of jam bands at the time? Because I know that fish which had started earlier and it was string cheese around at that at that point, at that point already. String cheese had just. It's funny because my my my sister at the time lived in Telluride when they started.

23:25 And Speaking of fish, I remember going to see a fish show at Red Rocks in 95 and there was this dude who was with us who was watching. I'm like, oh, that's, you know, like that's my friend Mike from Telluride, who really likes fishing. It was Michael Kang who was just there to to enjoy to enjoy some some fish. So you know, string cheese have been going for about two or three years at the at that point. There were other bands out there. Listen, so you know fish I first, I grew up in New England, so sort of by luck, I first saw fish in 87, which is pretty early in their, in their in their career. And at the time, people, for the most part, if I'm stereotyping dead heads were not on board with Fish, right?

24:09 They thought that the, I mean the lyrics, they thought the lyrics were a little too fluffy and not very. They didn't think that the music was as heavy emotionally. And but I think Fish would agree with everything that I'm saying as well. They were younger. They were younger guys at the time. Sure, sure. Good to college guys, right? Yeah, So people would be very dismissive. You know, there'd be a lot of us. We'd wear fish out. We wear fish shirts too, Grateful Dead shows just to get see what people would have to say, you know, why the heck no? And sometimes you get people to go right on and sometimes, you know, someone would lecture you about, you know, and how terrible they they were. But you know, for me, I think my crossover period, and I don't love talking about how many shows I did or didn't go to because I think it doesn't matter.

24:55 I think people who, you know, get into the Grateful Dead today, someone who gets into the can be just as big a fan as someone who went to see them in 1967, right? So it doesn't matter. But I will say this, that in 1993 was my crossover year where I finally saw more fish shows than dead shows. And I was in grad school at the time. I want to say this. So I think it was like maybe 31 to 30 or like, you know, something, something was close. It was close that year. And then I kind of drifted into into, you know, over to fish. It was a lot easier again because they were around and you know, I thought the, the the Grateful Dead kind of sell off a little bit of a precipice. I think you could still still they, I think they were, in my opinion, and a lot of people disagree with me, I think there was still a lot of cool music being made in 92 and 93. But by 94, even a year later, it wasn't the same. And 95 was a little bit was a little bit rough. Yeah, you can.

25:58 You can hear it. You can hear the, the, the frailty. And I mean, it's sad. I mean, I have a hard time listening to and I again, call me crazy. I have a hard time listening to dead concerts after like after the late 80s or you know, I was in the late 80s. It's kind of hard. I, I kind of stopped listening at like 8586 is really when I, when I, I usually hang out close to like the early 70's, the pig pen era with a lot of the Blues. And then and then there was the 90 like golden era with man that that come to Nassau show with Brandon Marsalis and that that was just like, and then that Boston College 1, I think was 80, maybe 89.

26:41 And that we also had the awesome. It started with the Franklin's, with the Franklin's Slipknot. And oh gosh, I'm losing my mind. I'm I'm exhausted. But the point is that like these, these shows are like you have gems within them. But I felt like a lot of them, you could detect that like the like, Jerry's kind of falling apart and the band is getting tired. The one thing I would say though, right is that I would vouch 100% for like spring of 90 and they released spring of 90 as a box that because Bobby loves spring of 90. Yeah. I mean, I think that the dynamic between Brent and Jerry in particular during that time is really, really, really strong. And unfortunately, I was at this his last, I was at the last run of shows at Tinley, at Tinley Park, you know, July of 90. And then that was that and then it changed. And then by the way, you know, Vince was OK. I think they didn't give him an they didn't want him to play AB3.

27:37 And so his sound was a was a little lighter and some of that wasn't his fault. But Hornsby was great in that band, right. So there's still some really, really good 9091 into 92 and then Bruce moves on to other things. But I loved hearing, you know, it's sort of like Harkins back to Keith. Like I loved hearing Bruce on on a big old grand piano with that band. And I think he really energized the group for a little while and then and then it was just only Vince and Vince was OK, like, you know, and it was fine. I remember I used to see him in Todd Rundgren's band and the tubes and he was OK. He really was like, I don't want to disparage the guy. And I do think part of it is they wouldn't give him what some people were looking for from this, from a from a sound perspective.

28:22 But back to 90, like there's some cool stuff in 90. There's some, there's some cool stuff in 90 and some cool stuff. I would say again, 91 when, when Hornsby's really, really driving, driving the train. Yeah, yeah. And then they introduce a whole new bunch of Dylan songs in that in that era too, which was a lot of fun. And when I paint my when I paint my masterpiece would turn out, you know, would, would, would kind of become a Bobby Weir special. But yeah, I so, so viewers, so. So how would you kind of try to explain the flavor of fish relative to Grateful Dead? Because I think that people try to, people tend to lump them together unless you know one of their types of music and then and then everyone kind of changes their mind. How would you kind of describe the difference? And then I'll have a follow up I want to hear about after. Well, let me just say this though, I think if you abstract them out in a lot, it depends how far out you know you're looking from.

29:17 From from 10,000 feet, 10,000 miles. Listen, they're both bands that that that improvisation, right? Right. But from someone that wouldn't know the difference, like if you were to describe the different style, you're like hey, if you like XY and Z music, more fit for you. If you like XY and Z, the Dead is for you. I mean, I think I think the the Grateful Dead Harkin more truly, if you think about it, the sort of traditional Americana music, right? And Jerry was a was a bluegrass banjo player. And that's where, I mean, that's what's really, really cool. That's what's fun. If you listen to like early Warlock Slash, Grateful Dead, like Jerry's like a banjo player playing electric guitar. He is and it's it's really, really interesting. And in fact, Bill Lash was not a bass player when he started. And so they're all right.

30:05 And and again, Bobby is 17 and they're all kind of figuring it out as they go along. And that's the cool. I think that's why the Grateful Dead became their own Organism and sounded like nothing else. But I do think that if I'm thinking about where they come from, I do think it's sort of like old timey American Music, except then they psyched. They add that psychedelic side to it because they were psychedelicized with the Merry Pranksters and Kesey at the at the acid tests and what and what came out of it. So, but fish on the other hand, for both bad, no, for for better, not for worse. They come at it in the 80s and they're very hyper aware of all the music that preceded them.

30:49 And you can hear it, you can hear the teases, you can hear all of those aspects. So they come out of much more of an arena rock background, even though they liked a lot of other things. But but because of that, they're a little bit more bombastic. They're a little bit more ironic because they're playing against everything that came before them and they're aware of that. I think some of the reason why people, you know, think their lyrics are a little bit silly early on is they're just responding to what was happening at the time. And they like Napa and Tom Marshall is his own, you know, is a, is a quirky, you know, very tall man, you know, but so, I mean, I, I think you know, that they're, they're both products of their, of their time in, in many, many respects. I think that's the main difference. But I think, you know, fish, especially early on, they're emerging from like that 70s arena rock realm, Grateful Dead. They're coming out of really the acoustic music and the and the beginnings of rock'n'roll and rockabilly, you know, in the, you know, from the 50s as that crossed into the mid 60s. Yeah, that's a great, that's a great description. And the other thing I wanted to bring up because you've mentioned it in passing, but I actually, it's such a fun little tidbit about this community.

32:09 You mentioned that you were like going to these shows while you're in Graduate School. There are so many brilliant people and across so many industries that just gravitate towards this. And like, and I've noticed this because even in my own life, people I meet that, you know, you could be a mortgage broker, you could be an industrial psychologist that deals with lawyers and, and lunatic bankers all day. You could be, you could be a PhD or a history teacher. And like, you can be a basketball player, you know, you can be an NBA player and you can, you know, and, and like, and, and it almost feels like it like their type of language translates over to a particular type of, to people with a particular type of, of thought, You know, that, that, that like to play, like to experiment, like, to like, to break boundaries and like, break things and then see what comes and build up from it.

33:02 And like you said, a lot of times the music wouldn't be the best music you ever heard, but would be meaningful or it'd be emotional or just be fun and like, and, and, and everyone would be OK with that. And I mean, that's what the dad would say, often would say like, Hey, man, like the audience is as much as this as we are. And you know, some nights it's going to be fun and some nights it's not. And so it's going to be pretty and sometimes going to be ugly, you know, but, but I think though that the fact that the that so many different types of individuals across so many different industries, but seem to have one thing in common. And that's the love of this experimentation. Sure. You know what's interesting? I was just thinking of this now when when I used to see the Grateful Dead as the Grateful Dead.

33:42 Like to me, there's other bands that the Grateful Dead ends in 95. If I'm doing that semantically, like to me, there's no question in my mind, right? But in in the Grateful Dead days, no Internet, so you couldn't really commune. So I think it drew a lot of really bright but idiosyncratic people who would go out and find their own tribe. And I found that in Grateful Dead, lots in Grateful Dead shows, like people who didn't quite, who had, who didn't quite, I don't want to say fit, but chose to maybe operate outside. And, you know, by the time Fish came around, the way that I met a lot of people, I talk about jambands.com, the way I met them was through rec dot music dot fish, these Usenet news groups, right, that existed before the World Wide Web.

34:27 And so by the time they get to fish, and also there was a Grateful Dead 1, though I think it was Grateful Dead, Dylan and Fish I think were the first 3. And they were mostly college students because who else would have used that account really at that time, unless you were there was also the well, which was its own thing, basically based out of San Francisco. But, you know, over time, the, the, I think the Grateful Dead served to foster community of really thoughtful individuals who were drawn to, like you were, like you were saying, improvisation and things that were not standard and things that challenged you intellectually and, and, and, or, and emotionally, frankly, you know, who, who were out there? And then you could find other people that were like that and you could find them at your local head shop. You know, to the extent that back then there were plenty of head shops, now, not so many.

35:17 And all that was like part and parcel of the experience when fish came around. Really, they are a product of the Internet. That's how people found, that's how fish became popular in many respects. Not entirely. I take nothing away from the music, right? Ultimately, it's about the music. In fact, that's, you know, that's our, that's our tagline. It's about the music and relics. But you know, but, but you could communicate with people other places and you could go out there and say, hey, I'm coming down to, you know, Texas for the weekend. You know, just can you recommend some restaurants or whatever we'll see out there the drink before the show or whatever, or this, this or that. Or just you could come in with people who you knew had the same, who were approaching things the same way and maybe they couldn't find anyone around them. Now you find a lot of community in a wonderful way online in any number of places.

36:03 But during Grateful Dead years, you couldn't. And so you would see all these really, really interesting, bright, thoughtful people at the shows. But I will say this. So I met a lot of people like that and they would, you know, they would just, they wouldn't, they wouldn't look like your average, you know, they dress a little bit differently and, you know, they just carry themselves their own way. And then I saw the Grateful Dead at Madison Square Garden in New York and I would see a bunch of people coming to the shows in in suits and ties because they were working on Wall Street and that. And I would think to myself, these guys, you know what's going on here. But they were some of the biggest dead heads you could see. Of course they were. But initially I was sort of thrown by that.

36:44 And I would see them do some amazing things. Some of these, some of these dead heads and three piece suits, they would bring in their briefcase and I'll be like, oh, I guess they're coming from work and they open up the briefcase and they'd have they'd have beer in there. They'd have like, well, and they'd get through security because they would be like, OK, there's some dude from Wall Street with his briefcase. And then even they'd be cracking beers passing them along. I don't know. So maybe there was a time where I came in with a little bit of stereotype and then eventually, pretty quickly, I came around to everything. You're saying. It's there. You know, we are everywhere, as they say, as they, as they. And it's true. And, you know, people in all walks of life who are doing any number of of of of fascinating things are drawn to this music.

37:25 Yeah, yeah, I think it's and I think this actually speaks. I, I, I, I've noticed that someone pointed this out to this out to me and I've really seen it kind of everywhere that the most creative, the most creative periods are when people are a particular group is going through a particularly hard time and they're trying to, you know, I either work through something or work themselves out. And I mean, you know, Blues being as it was in the 50s and 60s was for a reason, You know, like the whole counterculture existed because of how repressed society was at that point. And you could kind of still even track. What's really cool is that you can kind of track that tradition of of embracing the fact that you're kind of minority in your own little world in your own little way, not even in a completely apolitical way, just like, hey, like, you know, I'm just having a hard time trying to make my way through life in in the subsequent music.

38:27 But jamming, see, or improv seems to be a common theme throughout all of it because the jam world has really has really expanded just beyond what originally it was jazz and then the diet and fish. I mean, now, and we've and I mentioned this to my e-mail, Billy Strings is the bluegrass jam, you know, the jam grass or you have Sturgill Simpson or you have Chris Stapleton, like this kind of bluesy or country type of style. And I think it's kind of become indicative of individuals that feel like they like they just have to express themselves. And I think for a while, and unless I was just not exposed to it and I missed it, I feel like there's a little while or people got comfortable with, you know, like, I think for especially like in the jam scene, I can come became like pop jam, like jam became a pop cultural phenomenon rather than out a consequence of some kind of need to express yourself, you know. And So what we think is a is a divergent. It's kind of branching off all over the place in a really cool way.

39:28 Yeah, I think that's right. I think on some level, right it, it both ebbs and flows in terms of, you know, the nature of do artists want to explore this? I think that's, you know, again, I found a jambands.com 28 years ago. So I've seen I've seen a little bit of this here. But I do think also it is above all else a reflection of the times and where where we are and how people are seeking out whatever they're seeking out. And I think Billy Strings I think is a product of people wanting something real. Well, real, his lyrics, his lyrics just have been like, I haven't been blown away by lyrics like this in a very, very long time. The renewal album and and Hwy.

40:11 prayers, just a renewal in particular at this moment. You know, I'm listening, I've been listening to cover to cover, you know, for for months now. And there's such, it's such a it's it, it feels someone took, someone took a spirit, someone took an old American spirit and just like plopped it into this kid from Michigan and, and he's just channeling it. It's just, you know, Van Morrison used to say, you used to say like he was writing. I read an interview when he was writing, writing at when he's coming up with astral weeks. He's like, that wasn't me. He's like, I'm sitting there and I'm strumming and I'm talking into a recorder and I'm making things up. And then all of a sudden, like something comes out of me that's just a deep channel. And it just, and it just flew.

40:53 And I just, and I just happened to catch. I'm just, I'm just a catcher, that's all, you know? But give him more credit than that. Listen, I I think also he's willing and committed to doing that. I think sometimes it can be difficult for him. Yeah, I just right. I just spoke with him for our last issue and he talks about like, listen, he has stage fright, you know, before he goes on think he has a lot of self doubt about what he does. But I think pretty much everything you get from him is pure. Like he's, he's willing to to share that in any, you know, in in some manner, shape or form. I think he conveyed that even when he's not talking to the audience or directly, or you could know nothing about him really. You don't have to read an article about Billy Strings to get that something special is going on. And he is presenting himself in a very honest and real way. And so was I.

41:46 Listen, I was shocked as hell that that, you know, that it's a bluegrass. There's no, it's a bluegrass band. It truly is. It's not a new grass. You know what I mean? Like it's dead on. But you know, they're taking it out there and that they, you are so popular. Like there were so many people who were drawn to it. And all I could think of is that they were responding to what you just described. The fact that he's laying it out there, he's putting his body out on the tracks and he's being real at a time where that's lacking to some degree in in human discourse. And I it's such a lovely thing. And it's hard. It's hard. It's it's, it's, I think that people appreciate it because it's really, really hard for everyday people, day-to-day people like myself or maybe yourself to like, if you have something weighing you down to just like be vulnerable and just ex and, and, and completely express it with your being, you know, with your voice, with your hands, with your body language.

42:41 It's a very, it's a very uncommon thing to do for most people. And I think it's incredibly cathartic when we all gather together and experience that. And that's one of the view that, that's why I, I encourage everyone just get out, go to a freaking brewery and hear a cover band for an hour or for half an hour, Go do something with other people around. Because like we need that, you know, it's, it's something that, that, that's so fundamental and we have so many easy ways of getting away from it. You could stream every concert on nugs. You could go to, you know, like you could, you could go to a million different websites and not and sit in your backyard and not talk to anyone and listen to all this music. Then what are you? But then what are you doing? You know, like you're missing out on that.

43:22 Well, I mean, listen, that's still lovely, you know, and maybe you're somewhere where you can't, you know, you're somewhere that geographically speaking, I want to I'll defend that. I'll defend the heck out of just that print. But but having said that, there's nothing like being there. And in fact, I'm later this week, right. Again, not that this is tied to I just interviewed right Rob Barocco, who was in Phil Lesh and friends and a lot he was in the dead for a period of time and he has a span skeleton crew and skeleton crew has a big beefy organ, which he plays. It has Barry Slash, who was in Bobby's band at the end on pedal steel. And it has this Hawaiian slack slack key guitar player. And I was just saying to someone who this morning like they're they're somewhere near me later this week and I'm like, well, that I can go see because that scratches a lot of itches for me.

44:12 And it's well and good to watch something They've done a really cool thing on on on YouTube where they go from this this this Hawaiian slacky song into the Grateful Dead Slipknot, into a Dave Brubeck cover, into a Rob Derocco song. And it all flows and it's really amazing and it's great. And I've listened to it a couple times, watched and listened to it a couple times over. But there's nothing like being there with the band, with the people around you, giving something to the band, getting something back and just having the waves of sound, you know? You know, I think it's both mental, it's a most it's mental emotional. I think it's also physiological in some way with the the nature of the sound waves. So it's good.

44:56 It's you know, that's good eating. Do what you can get out there, see some live. Music and the lights, man, I'm telling you when you're, when you're listening to a great jam and the light and, and, and the lights seem to reflect the tone of the music and like, I don't even know that that music even had a color tip, but it does, you know, it's, it's, it's so cool. It's so much fun. I wanted to ask you now, oh man, do you want to talk about relics, relics or do you want to talk about about the actual, I guess, ticket market? First, well, how about this? I'll just say this real quickly about relics and then we can move back. You know, not that I love relics. I've been here for a while. But listen, you know, we, we've been a print magazine. We started in 1974 by, you know, Les Capel and Jerry Moore, they were Grateful Dead fans.

45:42 They wanted, they started it as a means to facilitate tape trading at a time when it actually wasn't entirely kosher. The Grateful Dead had not fully given it their that not fully signed off on it. And so that's how it began. And then over time it has evolved. And now we certainly, we love the Grateful Dead. You know, we just put out this, you know, this 60 year hold on, I have one on my coffee table, right. We put out this, this, you know, 60 years of the Grateful Dead experience, which is a stand alone. It's 160 pages about the good old Grateful Dead. And it's all, you know, it's, it's have there's a lot of wonderful images and articles for the record, but it really reflects, you know, sort of the, the heart of what we've been over the years. And in fact, on the back cover, inside back cover, that's our our first, that's our first, the first relics cover from 7:00 when it was dead relics.

46:40 But so this is very much a part of who we are. But hold on one second. You know, it was great. Like, this is our our last issue is this is my cover story, right? It's Billy Strings who does this, you know, just a great image. You know, Billy. Yeah. So I think we we honor the tradition and we've tried to bring it forward with the music. I'm really, really proud of what we've been an amazing team of people who are all in on it. It's a challenge to keep a print magazine going in in 2026. I'll say that. You really have to want to do it and you have to believe in it. And of course, we still have all sorts of things happening online, but it's been it's been great. Listen, I, like I said, I started jambands.com in 98. I start there was AI created with my friend Peter Shapiro, an event called the Jammies when he was the owner of wetlands preserve.

47:36 And through that, it was during that time that I merged into into relics world. And I've been there for, you know, 25 years or something. And it's doing a bunch of other things too, by the way. Yes, picking up stuff the people. This is my book with Peter Music Never Stops, which is which is just. I highly, highly recommend it for people who are. Where to put the link up for sure you know. For for people who are into the scene but also want to learn more about concert promotion and the like. I mean, it's really he's I pushed him. I pushed him to to write this. I'm the I'm the width on there, you know, video with Dean because just from hearing him, I've heard him talk about his business a few times a day since 1997. And he just has, he just has so much wisdom and he's really done things for the right reasons.

48:32 I'll say this. I don't know anyone who works harder, any promoter who works harder when he has a sold out show. Most promoters would be like, OK, my work's done. The show's sold out. Peter's like, well, who can we get? Who, who wants to be a guest? Who can we bring on? What kind of sit insurance can we do to surprise people? And he does time and time and time again and he really, you know, he just takes a really righteous approach. And I think in that book he talks about every grateful dad. He has a lot of relationships there, how he came about all the things that he did. And I'm really super, super proud of it. But that's sort of maybe, you know, and Peter's our publisher, Ed Rehlicks. He was a part of the team with myself and some of the people who came in in 2009 when the, the, the person who had bought it around 2000 decided to move on.

49:20 But anyhow, if we're going to talk about ticketing, that's even though it didn't happen in this order, I think that's sort of transitional in that at least from the content standpoint, that book talks both about music and about the the concert industry and how it how it came about. But but yeah, also I did write this other book which I'll pick up please here. Please do. Oh, by the way, I'm sorry, I don't mean none of them. We're not just looking behind me because they're on my shelf. This is a book that that that I wrote. Might as well. Might as well. It's a novel basically about what it was like to be in the Grateful Dead, the Grateful Dead lot scene, let's say in 1989.

50:02 Can you just that is in case anyone doesn't know what that is, because I know what that is, but that's I know a lot of fun. Sure. I mean, I think there were, you know, it, it takes the perspective or of seven or 8 characters who are the types of people you would meet outside and inside a Grateful Dead show. And there's one other part of it, which is this on on October 14th, 1989 at the Meadowlands. I think it would Brendan Byrne Arena in New Jersey, right, right across, right across the line from from, from New York, you know, right outside New York City. There was a guy named Adam Katz who mysteriously died outside a show outside there. And I was there that night.

50:46 And I can say definitively that that night was one of the weirdest. There was a vibe like I've never ever experienced like, and not in a good way at a grateful ditch. I can't even I you know, I don't not someone who like feels a lot of vibe and thinks that there's something in the air. But there was that night and that's always stuck with me. And then around 2016, right around the time actually a fare thee well. I'm like this. I got to do something with this and I was thinking about the 50 years of the Grateful Dead. And so I wrote this novel, which, you know, which, which talks, which I'm pretty happy with it. I don't know. I'm not even trying to sell it now. It's been, it's 10 years old, but I don't know. But, but, but it does, you know, it was next to what I was going to show you next.

51:32 But you know, I think it captures the the spirit of the of the things. By the way, Oh, sorry, God. Please, I want you to take me into the I want you to take me into or describe the parking lot scene before and after the concert a little bit. For anyone that wouldn't know, can you kind of paint like a word picture of like what a typical scene would look like? Well, what I would say is this, right? This So there's like a character in the in the book called Bagel Bob. And there'd be a Bagel Bob everywhere, some dude who'd been on tour since the late, you know, early 70s or late 60s. And he have a ton of wisdom, was a little bit loopy, you know, because he'd been at it for a real long time. And he was pure and he was true, but he wasn't always there. And that's OK, you know, But he was just part of the, he was just, you know, part of the whole experience.

52:16 And there were bagel bobs there. You know, there's a taper in the show because tapers. You know, I was a taper for a period of time for fish, not really for the Grateful Dead. I started during during fish times. And they they think of the shows differently. They conceptualize them and they need to be in earlier so they can set up and they deal with people around them in a slightly different way. And then there was a young person who was coming to his first show and we talked about like a like a someone in his late teens who was in a, you know, in a prep school in which I was not for the record. And so it's not about me, you know, a prep school in, in, in, in the New York area around that time and what that experience was like for people. There's a mother with a young daughter. There are a lot of different people. And they were just part of the, you know, part of the whole carnival, the, the fabric of the, of the experience in I don't know.

53:08 I again, I haven't picked it up for a while, but the, it was very cathartic writing it. I think it's pretty good in the sense that it captures, I think those people and that time which it which is long gone. And it does, in my opinion at least, hint out what I think happened to Aaron Katz, which I think he was killed by a security guard. Although in my book it doesn't exactly happen. That's not exactly the way that it ends. Because, you know, Quentin Tarantino can, can save Sharon Tate. So I can save, I could save Adam Katz. Yeah, yeah, I mean I I though the only other like big community, you know, the big kind of fest, festival type disaster is that famous Stones concert at the at the Raceway Ultima Ultima yes, thank you.

53:56 And under my thumb is it was at the date of the documentary about that. That was, that was also like a heebie jeebie, kind of like people call that like the end of the end of the 60s, end of summer of love, like, you know, and, and everyone kind of just, and like there's a wait. I don't know if you ever saw the footage of like the Grateful Dead. They're like getting arriving via helicopter. Jerry's wearing this like ridiculous, like drug rug, like kind of like purple like rug thing smock. And they're like, and someone like tells him, Hey, Hell's Angel just killed the guy. And they're like, that doesn't sound right. We're not going to play. And they just turn around and get back in the airplane and go home and helicopter and go home. But like, I, I, I as far as heebie jeebie goes, I hear, I, I think, what was the other thing you would have showed me?

54:39 Before I got to now they get to think about it, right. So yeah, because this is whatever show and tell time, because we happen to be there in my office. I mean, I have a couple of my own Jam Man books. I don't really care about those right now. They're there and I'm not proud of them, but whatever. You know, this is the book I did with John Popper, which I think captures like, you know, Blues Traveler and like the Horde era and Wetlands called Second Blow. It's gonna blow and other stories I'm not supposed to tell. OK, So that's out of, I mean, again, that's ten that came out around the same time. I bring it up for people who want to who really into sort of the Horde scene. John Hopper founded Horde from, you know, with Blues Traveler.

55:19 He was the owner of Horde and it talks about again, Wetlands, the coming together of the jam band scene in the 1989 and onward. And it's really he's a really sharp, bright, bright guy. But we're talking about Ticketmasters is the one that you were getting at earlier, right? Yes. You know, again, I tell you what I wrote this with my friend Josh Baron, who at the time we were both we were part of both part of the team that resuscitated relics in 2009. And truly I wanted to answer one question at the beginning, why are ticket prices so high? That was really it. How did we get here? And to answer it, that that answer is a, you know, is a, is a 400 page book. And it talks about the rise of computerized ticketing before Ticketmaster, how Ticketmaster came to be the rise of the, you know, how independent promoters, how they drifted and became, you know, what eventually was Live Nation and where that leads. And it talks about the rise of StubHub and the impact of that on the market.

56:28 And the, and truly, because you know the band that did more, there's no question about this, the band that did more for the for its fans than any other band without question when it comes to ticketing is the Grateful Dead, right? They had their own ticket office. They fought for 1/2 of the inventory to the tickets for all their shows and they sold them themselves so that they could connect directly and ensure that their fans, not scalpers, would go to the shows. And by the way, the people who worked for the Grateful Dead ticketing were so committed to it that if they thought that somebody was trying to game the system by submitting a second order under another name, they put the envelopes. You got to get self addressed stamped envelopes. They put them on the floor and look at them. And if the handwriting match, they'd shut them out. I want to make, I want to emphasize, by the way, how it, how extraordinary the grateful to how this was for the Grateful Dead, because the way ticketing works and it, it's work now truly ever since the rise of Ticketmaster, you know, in the, in the early 80s is Ticketmaster enters into a contract with the venue.

57:43 And as part of the contract, Ticketmaster has the right to sell 100% of the tickets to the venue to, to, to the shows at, at the venue. Essentially, you know, they're the little thing carve out. So let's call it, let's call it 98%, but it's, and all of a sudden there's this other band, the Grateful Dead, who said, there's this band, the Grateful Dead who said, well, we want to sell 50% to our fans. We don't care about, we don't care about you, Ticketmaster. We've been here longer than you. We're going to do what we want. We believe in this. And they pushed back and they fought and they won. No other band really did that. The only other band that came close, you mentioned String Cheese. String Cheese also had an issue with Ticketmaster about about 10 years later where they wanted to sell 50% of their tickets to their fans.

58:30 And what happened? What happened eventually is that Ticketmaster sort of quietly let them in a settlement that wasn't that wasn't revealed at the at the time. I have a friend that's in the ticket business and he, I forgot which company. He said it was either StubHub or Ticketmaster. But apparently he said like you would be shocked how many tickets they by themselves as resellers and just hang on and then and then and then charge a top dollar. He was like, you know, he goes, I have so many stories from people that I've worked with and you know, over the years and he's like, the ticket industry is and you know what I mean? Unfortunately, you get into any, a deep enough into any big enough industry that has any kind of regulation, you're always going to have corruption.

59:15 So like, you know, it's not nothing new under the sun, but but you got to leave it up to fancy able and listen. One of the one of the interesting comparisons is someone like Taylor Swift, who is like has been on like this enormous juggernaut of a of a tour the last couple of years and the multibillion dollar tour. And one of the biggest complaints was about was from her fans. You know about about the ticket pricing and it's interesting. It's, it's really, really, really tricky and it's not always easy to solve, you know, that particular, that particular problem in terms of what is the best way, How do you value, how should you value your fans?

59:57 And, you know, should we let people who are going to wait in line physically outside of venue? Should we privilege them? Should we privilege people in a fan club? If you know your tickets are going to sell out, It's it's, it's, it's it's. Harder, I think, than than it might seem. Although Taylor Swift initially, she should not have put all her tickets to all those stadiums on sale at the same time that the system was going to crash. That was destined for failure. And she could have had a lottery the way she eventually did to a degree later. There are other ways to go about it. I mean, you know what, I don't want to, I'm not here to disparage Taylor Swift. I think she wanted to, I think she wanted to break some records when she put when she put those tickets on sale initially for the Eras tour in all those stadiums at the say, the 32 stadiums and the like. And it's fine, right?

1:00:46 That's that's, you know, that's part of her story, I think. And I think she takes pride in the fact that she's able to do it. But yeah, that wasn't very fan friendly, but we can leave it. At that Yeah, no, not particularly but but also Speaking of fan friendly. But yeah, I know that fish is fish is famous for their lot fish and Broadway shows famous are famous for their lotteries. Maybe you can kind of explain how that worked and maybe and and and how they created this festival world because the the dead shows became a scene. You pop up the day before, maybe hang out the day after you go to the next town over there going and fish kind of introduced this idea of like a week in Manhattan or a week and you know where and that's the famous that's the famous example. But if you can maybe elaborate on that little bit? Sure.

1:01:30 Well, listen, I mean there, there is no question. I mean, they, they used to, I will say this about fish. There was a period of time in the 90s when like the Grateful Dead, they did have their own ticketing office and it was handled by a woman named Shelby Shelley Culbertson. I remember I went there once once because that she was kind enough to let me and I I had a problem. I think I was going on my honeymoon actually. And so she like I knew her OK through the Internet and she let me go and then physically pick some up because I otherwise was going to be a problem. But so the the fish in the same way maybe that their fans grew up in the Internet era, unlike the fans of the Grateful Dead, fish fans did they connected that way. So fish advanced that in that, you know, fish does have a lottery that you can sign up for a few days in advance. Like I think maybe Taylor Swift could have, but whatever. That's why I'm not here to, you know, you know, whatever it is, what it is.

1:02:26 But so, so fish really sort of brought that, that, that, that you know, the, that sort of democratize that in the sense that anyone, if you knew about it, could be, could be, could be part of it and allowed it to be randomized in a way that their fans wouldn't be shut out. I mean, if you know when the the beyond sale is, you know, you can be, you can, you can be part of that lottery. But they also did that again, they started out, I think it was 93. They started out just with taper tickets because I know that back then I was taping shows. They started out just with mail order taper tickets and that worked out pretty well. And from there they slowly expanded into just like the Grateful Dead, physical mail order tickets and then 95 right Grateful Dead, they wrap up their their ticketing office somewhat folds. It evolves into something else, but fish then focused online. And so that's where you that's to this day, that's there. They they've been, you know, I think they, again, they're pretty committed to that, to be kind to their fans. And listen, you know, they've tried to do what they can. I think if you look at the price of other tickets out there in the market, I think they've done what they can to make, you know, to be not unreasonable in the face value of their tickets. You know, things have gone up over. Time.

1:03:45 Things are crazy. Things are crazy. I mean, I, there's so many shows I want to see and it's, it really is difficult for me to, you know, to at this point, you know, in particular at this point of my life to justify it. And even though, and even though I love it and I've been settling for a premium nugs membership and just watching a bunch of live shows, you know, as they happen. And I have a great, and I'll show you after off air. But you know, I got a great set of my backyard with a projector and a screen and my, and a couple of speakers and I have my buddies come by and we'll just hang out and listen to some music. But you know, I mean, I would, I would love to go, but it tickets, tickets have gone are just nothing. I'm not sure if it's, if it's just inflation, if it's demand, if it's just a new world of venues and a new and there's so many new middle, middle men that are taking money from the, from the from the, from the companies that I'm sorry about that. Again, that that that maybe that's just why tickets just prices are up in general, But either way it's it's almost impossible to maintain.

1:04:49 Sure, I mean I would say this. There's something pretty cool though about being able to why? I have a friend of mine in New Mexico and he just can't see a lot of, yeah, not a lot of live shows that come out anywhere near where he is. So he will get, he'll get, you know, he'll have the nug subscription and he'll project him in his backyard onto the, onto the side of his house and they'll all sit there, you know, have a lovely beverage and enjoy some. It's got great speakers, got a nice setup and, you know, like, listen, you can't go every night. It's, it's a, it's a lovely thing. It's a lovely thing, you. Know Tell me about brewing. How did you get into brewing? No, I, I don't, you know what, I, I will say this that when I was younger, growing up, there was mostly just pretty crappy corn beer.

1:05:31 You know what I mean? I, no disrespect to, to good old American heartland corn infused beer. There was nothing very, very tasty, you know, that one could have. And then as, as the opportunity presented itself, I'm like, OK, I can make something kind of cool myself. I remember I went to fishes festival, the great went and I made a case of great went wheat that I gave out and I and it's in the it's in the there's this fish book, the fish compendium, and there's a picture to my beer. You know that like that people, you know that people were into OK, so to that end, let me get you, let me grab a relics beer. I'll crack it. I'll crack it. Definitely.

1:06:11 Hang on. Yes, that's my that's my predilection. So I'll tell you the story. So here's the beer here. You're there. So water. We're in Florida. No. What'd you say? 3 waters in Florida, aren't they? They're based in Atlanta. Atlanta, right, All right. I'm sure they reach, I'm sure they reach Florida. Yeah. So the idea was I wanted, we wanted to make a beer. The, the, the the biggest beer enthusiast, jam musician I know is Kyle Hollingsworth. And I've known Kyle for a while. And so we wanted string cheese. Yeah. And so we wanted to, we wanted to make a beer together. And Wheatwater agreed. This was an amazing story. I actually wrote about it in three parts and relics. And they flew us out to, to to Northern California where no, no, to Oregon, to Oregon, sorry to Oregon, where we sampled the hops.

1:07:05 We went to the hop farm. This is the beginning of the process. And then we went to the hop farm and then we sat around the table. None of us, we none of us had to drive and we would. We would just drink a lot of beers that had a strong flavor of each of the kinds of hops. Sure. So amazing. I've never done. I'd love to do this again. Kyle and I talk about this so. Near you, You have a ton near you. That's. Fair. No, no, that's fair. What there's a There's a million hop farms you can go to in that area and they're delicious. Northeastern beer is awesome. All right, now, that's fair. That's fair. Listen. So I, I was like, yes, so we do that. That was the first step. Then we went down. Then we came up with the recipe. We, we obviously worked with the person who was the head, you know, the, the head of of at was in charge of that at Sweetwater. And we went down there and we, we made some samples and then we went down again and we drank the samples and then we threw a party and it was awesome.

1:08:02 And the one thing I said was, if we're going to do this, I don't just want this to be something you can have on tap anywhere. I mean, that's great, but let's make this special. And so you could get this, I know up and down the East Coast it was called Ground Score and love it. I have a few of them left. I haven't, I haven't. It's an IPA. I, you know, I know for a while they were in fashion, but for me, I just love Ipas because I just love that hoppy. When I was growing up, truly when I was starting to drink beer, there was nothing very flavorful. And to me like this, the the the flavor of hops is what really what what does it for me. If you ever come down to South Florida or else I could ship you some some local brews here, We have like within within 2025 minutes of the Fort Lauderdale airport.

1:08:49 There's probably a half a dozen, 8, 8 plus out of 10 breweries that are just out of this world. And I did a couple of podcasts with the with, with the owners and there's so much that's also such a fun world. The people are so authentic and nice and, and whoever's there is there because they want craft beer, you know, like it's the same reason, like it's a similar thing to the music world. Like you're there because you're there for a particular type of thing that you like. And man, if you, if you, if you're coming down, great. If not, I'm happy to send you a customized, you know, so 4 to 10 pack of different types of Florida Ipas that I think will blow you away because we make great beer down here.

1:09:32 Fair enough. Listen, I buy it. So here we go. Cheers. Cheers, cheers. I haven't. Like I said, it's a little bit so you know, right. So Ipas were created so that people could drink, you know, when they were when they were at sea, so that you know, like when they were at sea to support themselves when they couldn't drink the water. So you know an IPA is going to last longer than others people like. So this, this beer at this point is. Oh boy, don't check the canning date. Salt, it's three years old, but but it's I'm sure it'll just be mild. It won't be. Yeah, definitely, definitely. I'm curious how much how much the how much the hop flavor has has changed or not though.

1:10:17 You know what you can taste? It actually tastes pretty good. Like it's not, there's not a kick to it. It's like it's, it's close to a Dippa, right? It's close to a double IPA. Yeah. What's it close to 7 percent, 8%? Actually it's 7.1. 7.1 There you go. Beautiful. It's not quite as strong, but it smells good, you know, not my plan, no way. When I woke up this morning, this is not I, I had no, no thought that I'd be doing this. I have a couple left, but you know. Happy. I'm so happy. I'm honored. Do you remember the hops that you liked? I have the recipe. It's Citra. It was Citra. It was Citra is the one that I know that's in it. I also found out later that they never could have. It was not very, it's not very cost effective to make this beer because it was so hoppy that the hop farm donated the hops because they knew because we, we, we wanted something that really had something to it.

1:11:18 And it Crosby Hop Farm is the name of the hop farm. And no, it was great. And Kyle is really, really cool, loves beer. He does, you know, he does beer events out in Colorado sometimes he'll do beer events before and after a string cheese show. We nearly maybe one day, we still talk again about doing one more beer together. We came pretty, pretty close. But he's a great guy to hang out with and he's fun and he's, you know, that a great sense of humor. And eventually they'll get him to people, get him to play. There'll be a piano in the thing or he'll do a show around the event. But we did this together again. It's legitimately still still pretty good. And that's that.

1:11:58 So that's, yeah, that's. I love it. I think it's great. Are there any other styles that you've adventured into? Because I I've gone from Ipas to sours to stouts, and then I've gone back to loggers now and I'm back into like the light logger game after I probably lost, I quit drinking Ipas about a year and a half ago and I probably lost 25 lbs since then. Look at that. I do get that big difference. I do get that I'll be honest and people will I'll set myself up for criticism here. To me, sometimes like sours just felt like, and I know that that the amount of thought and effort and that went into them and it's like a science experiment a bit, but I, I just didn't really care for those personally. You know, I, I don't, you know, I, I don't, I don't mind something a little bit heavier.

1:12:47 If we're going to make something like a, you know, like a stout, that's cool. I respect everything that goes into it. And you know, there have been times, not recently where you can, you can have a stout for like a lunch that's like a meal. You know it done, right? Yeah, 5 days. But you know, but but I get I bet a lager is light and refreshing on a nice warm day. Why? Why not? I mean to me at this point, if I'm having a stout next. You guys should do a stout next for sure. Don't do another IPA. There's too many Ipas in the market. Do it. Do a stout, do a seasonal 1 where like you could stick in a barrel for a couple of months and then you could throw some like nice winter flavors like chocolate or coffee or, you know, vanilla beans or something into it. Man. Do you have some great breweries near you? I mean, you're, you're, you're if you're in Rhode Island, I mean, you're in Massachusetts.

1:13:31 I mean that. Have you been to a tree house? You know they are. Listen, it's great. They're awful. No. Yeah, and I saw the Dark Star was playing there. I almost bought tickets because Dark Star was playing in one of their locations. And then and Derek Trucks is playing that the night before in Bethel Woods. And I was going to take it, make it, make a little road trip out of it. And I bought the Derek Truck tickets to convince myself to go. And then my wife said no. And then I gave the tickets to my dad. So now my dad, I bought tickets. My dad has been to String Cheese, Springsteen on Broadway and and Derek Trucks now and they're all my tickets that I had to give him. Well, that's very generous of you. Does your dad, does your dad come out like in terms of his music?

1:14:23 Is that it, is he when he goes to those things, is he discovering something or is that sort of reflecting some of the stuff that he listened to at some point in his in his life? He's. With so with String Cheese and with and with Eric Trucks is totally new to him. I mean, the Allman, The Allman Brothers vibe and that sound is more familiar to him. He grew up more of like a pop 80's rock kind of guy in Miami Beach. So a lot of Springsteen out of Billy Joel, a lot of Fleetwood Mac, a lot of like the pop rock at the time. But great listen, great, awesome music and music I grew up on. Yeah, I tried to, you know what? I'm trying. I'm trying to, I'm trying to teach him. I'm teaching one bit at a time. He has a house and here's a little log cabin in the in the mountains of North Carolina.

1:15:05 So he's by Asheville quite a bit. And I'm like, there is a lot of great music. There's always great beer and a lot of great music in Asheville. And you should and you and and and it's a shame that he doesn't go to more, but I'll get him. I'll get him there. I meant to ask you also along the way as as my podcast has been kind of coming along, what are some of your experiences dealing with some of, you know, it's interviewing, meeting and becoming friends with some of these like, you know, incredible musicians and people that you, I don't know if you'd consider them that way, but that people would often consider heroes of theirs, you know, what's that like? What I would say is this the the most interesting part of that has been watching people who were young when I first met them and maybe were not very well known, and then seeing them in contexts and fully appreciating what other people think of them.

1:15:58 And whenever I tell this for the first one that comes to mind is like Eric Krasnow right from Sola, people come crazy. There's a lot of things he's done stuff with Bill Lash and this and that over the time he came up to me. I was at, I think a Grey Boy All Stars show in Cambridge at the very, very first House of Blues. And the very, very first House of Blues was like a House of Blues. It was like a Juke joint legitimately. And then it became something different. That's fair. So you know, then then seeing when you know, when I know him, he was Eric and he gave me said and he handed me this cassette from his band that would lettuce. But still today, although he's not really in it. And they were just, you know, Berkeley College of Music kids they'd met actually as high school students at the Berkeley College of Music.

1:16:41 And I'm like, oh, hey, that's Eric. Cool. And then eventually then he was in the band Soul Live and he was playing with John Scofield and, you know, then they were doing these bowl live things and now he's out in he's a big time producer. And so it's been fun to see that. The other person, quite honestly, who I met when he was a pre teenager is Derek Trucks. I think the first time I interviewed him, he was 19 and it's been amazing. I mean, just, and he was extraordinary back then. And when he was in the Derek Trucks Band, he would play at this little casino, this free gig at the Mohegan Sun Casino in this little free room and that we would sit at these little cocktail. I can remember this very distinctly 2 years. We were sitting at these little cocktail tables and it was myself, my friend and Derek at the time. It was his girlfriend, it was Susan Tedeschi. It was like the four of us were just there just up to see Derek. And then both years we were just there having, you know, it's like they're bringing you drinks and this and that. And then she's whispers something and she apologizes. She has to get up because she has to go on stage and sing a couple songs and then she comes back out and she says, so it's been fun.

1:17:47 I mean, to me, that's always exciting. And it takes me by surprise sometimes when I'm like, oh, wow. And think about Tedeschi Trucks Band like they believe, but when they went out there, they believed that they could take a 12 piece band, super expensive on the road and makes and everyone said that's a bad idea. Derek's management said, I don't know, Susan's management, I don't know. But that's what they heard in their heads. And, you know, they're, they're pretty aggressively going to follow their muse and they always have. And now they're out there and it's and it's awesome and they've been able to succeed at doing their thing and it's really, really fun.

1:18:29 I have a lot of respect for Derek. And anyway, and all of those people who sort of came out of the the Colonel Bruce Hampton, well, you know, like Jimmy Herring from Widespread Panic, like Otil from Dead and Burbridge from Dead and Company, a lot of places. And even some of the younger people, some of the younger players like Derek's brother Dwayne, now in widespread panicked, you know, Jimmy Herring's son-in-law. And there are a lot of, you know, this guy, Nick Johnson, who's playing with Widespread Panic now that Jimmy Herring has to sit out while he's getting some treatment for, you know, for for throat cancer. He's from the the Colonel Bruce Hampton school. And it's just, it's just been wild. I remember seeing them and the amazing thing about about Bruce, Bruce Hampton is he it's for him, it was all about intent, right?

1:19:16 And it wasn't even about if the intent was right, the execution will be. And he was pretty famous for clearing a room of of an audience and then waiting to see who was who was who was left who that you believe And I was at a show. It is damn it. I'd heard this and then it happened to me at this this place called night stage in Cambridge in 89. And they got up there in the middle of the first set. They played some of the most A and I thought this was great for the record. They played all of this a tonal just squawking strange and I was totally riveted. I want to be clear like that in and itself was great. But he cleared the room and there were maybe, I don't know, 15 or 20 of us left 1/2 hour later.

1:19:57 And then they played some of the most beautiful, sublime music you could have expected. And I know that was his whole, that was his whole thing. And I don't know, I'm drifting a little bit from from your question about what it's like. But I will say this, I remember when Otil joined the Almond. Brothers Band. And on that first tour, I, I was writing at that time for a magazine called Hit in the Note, which was run by The Allman Brothers Band tour manager Kirk West. And so I remember I had AI had like 3 or 4 hours with Otil in a hotel room right outside Mansfield, Mass, because The Allman Brothers Band was playing at Great Woods. And we just hung out and we were shooting the shit. And then a few years after that I had a book release, which I'm not going to get this book for my jam bands book. And Otil played it and it was just, you know, with his band, the Peacemakers.

1:20:45 And these things all come around. I don't know. The one thing that I would say is, you know, people are imperfect. You were talking about what it's like. I would say for the most part, what you see is what you get. What you feel is what you get. I think a lot of these musicians who you think they seem pretty righteous and selfless in their approach and egoless maybe more than selfless in their approach. Then when you meet them, they're, they're like that in many, in many respects. And you know, and you know, don't really always want to want to talk about any other thing other than the music, because that's just not where their heads are. Heads are.

1:21:26 On the other hand, I can remember talking to someone like Warren Haynes who could be in the middle of a converse. I, this always stunned me. We'd be in the middle of a conversation like at the Beacon Theater at the Allman where The Allman Brothers Band were playing. He'd be like, oh, someone say up, Warren got to go. We go, OK. And on a turn on a dime, go on stage and just boom, he'd deliver. Like he didn't need, he didn't need, you know, any sort of meditation time or anything. You could just step up and start cranking from the, from the gecko. One other thing quickly about Warren, because we're going, we're going, it's fine. We're going on and on. And you were talking earlier about sort of the nature of, of, of music and sort of happy music and sad music. And I remember I've talked to Warren about this a couple times. People ask him why he doesn't have more happy songs and what his answer is, is when I'm happy, I don't want to write songs.

1:22:13 I just want to live life. And so it goes back to the Blues, right? When you're writing the Blues because you're feeling the Blues, right? When you're not feeling the Blues, he wants to sit around by yourself writing a song. And I think you can hear that in a lot of not all of them, right? Something like soul Shine or other, you know, other things. But, you know, and I think that's true and I respect that. I respect that, right? Because he he, he asked you what he's feeling in the moment and when he doesn't want it, when he's feeling good, I don't want to write a song. OK, So you don't get, you know, not a bunch of happy songs. Yeah, yeah, I'm OK with that. Also, by the way, it happens to be like most of the songs that are happy are great because the tunes are happy. Not, not because of happy and not because of incredible happy lyrics. You know, like, I don't know, it does. We, we, we, we shift into a different kind of state of mind, I think at that point.

1:23:00 Can I ask out of curiosity what Derek Trucks is like because he's he seems so expressionless on his music is so is so expressive and like and he seems so quiet and so expressed. I just want to can I? I'm just let. Me say yes this is a great 1. He is one of the funniest people. I'm stunned by this because he is very taciturn. He's very focused. He does not crack a smile on stage. I think it's because he's like, I got a job to do here, man. You know, I'm leading this 12 piece band. I'm focused on music. But he is, he's got a great sense of humor. He loves to laugh.

1:23:41 He, you know, like he's he's he's super fun to have the opportunity to hang out with him because he's always, he's honestly smiling all the time cracking. He's got a great spirit about him, I guess is what I would say. So subdued on stage it's crazy. I can't think of anyone that I know that's such a stark contrast. Between between the way that they are on stage and. Yeah, I can't think of anyone that's such a stark contrast between their stage persona and what they're like off stage. Derek is my is my best example because he is not like how you would think he would be just from watching him. You know, tight lipped on stage, focused on the music. His Layla Revisited album Lock In is one of my all time favorite albums with Trey sitting in and they're keep on growing and was just out of control was just I, I and I didn't know that was one of the first time I was listening to to to to dusky trucks.

1:24:43 Like period. You know, I just I found the album. I just put it on and I I remember I was I was going on a jog and I'm listening. I'm thinking song after song. This is just out of control. And then I realized it's a cover album. And I'm like, it's a cover album. This is something like what the heck is going on over here? But it's it's it's out of control. Good. I to close out. What are some things that we're looking forward to in the future and what are some things that we're hopeful and and excited about? Well, you mentioned you mentioned you mentioned Derek, right? They have a new record that's that's on the way. They have their big their big summer tour that's coming up.

1:25:23 They're doing a bunch of shows. They're, they're at the they're going to be at the Beacon Theatre in New York for most of March, which is always fun. For most. Of March. So like, you know, they've sort of taken up the mantle of The Allman Brothers Band and that was always a tradition. It was really, really fun to see, you know, March Madness with the ABP. I'm also a college basketball fan. So you can and you could walk outside there so you could walk out during set break, go catch some games at a bar, like catch the end of some of the early games and then walk back in for the second set. That was always great. I'm not sure. Well, I don't think they let people do that anymore, but it was you could do that back then during the ABP years. So he now that they're basically taking up most of most of March, which which I think is quite, quite awesome. Listen, fish is they since they just announced their tour, that's on my mind.

1:26:13 They're they're playing at Fenway Park, my home baseball stadium, which I first went to as a as a kid and I'm like ever since. So for the record, anyone who cares, don't the sound, the sound in the stands is not great. You got to hopefully be on the field because that place is not designed really for music, but a fun place to see them. And, you know, they're going to play five nights at Madison Square Garden, which they don't normally do during the summer, just so they can set themselves up to play their 100th show on New Year's Eve, which, you know, so that's going to be a cool little run akin to, right. I think you were, you were referencing this sort of indirectly earlier, like the Baker's dozen when they play in all those shows. And that was actually during the summer at Madison Square Garden. It's tough by the way, to to to find slots to play it at MSG because the Rangers are playing, because the Knicks are playing, because there's any number of the and the summer tends to be. It's one of the biggest venues in the world. Yeah, but but during the summer there's not as much competition, right?

1:27:07 There's not as many thing, you know, you don't have the ice Capade, you know the two teams, you don't have this or that. And so, you know, they're the New York Liberty, I'm pretty sure. So, you know, so it's fun when you know it'll be, it'll be a cool contrast to see fish outdoors and then indoors. I like that, you know, sometimes I think like indoors, I think it can be a little bit more intense. I think some people like outdoors in terms of the way the sound sort of flies. I always thought that was one of the big differences between seeing the Grateful Dead on the West Coast and seeing the Grateful Dead on the East Coast in that a lot of the West Coast shows were Amphitheatre shows, at least 80s and not all of them, but a lot of them, you know, shoreline and the like.

1:27:51 And then a lot of the shows, at least that I would see would be indoors where this would be a little bit more. It'll be a little, it was a little more intense all the way, all the way around anyhow, right. I imagine aside from that, I'm excited for, you know, I think in the near term, right? Graham Lesch is doing some shows at the Capitol Theatre, lovely Peter Shapiro's venue, going to do 4 nights with any number of guests honoring his father. And I thought he did a did a wonderful job last year, right? Including the last night in which he played with his father's old band, like the quintet, the classic Phil Lesch quintet with Warren Haynes and Jimmy Herring and John Molo and Rob Barocco. And for some of the show he played guitar, but for the second set he played bass.

1:28:37 And I was just talking to, again, this is on relics.com. It's so moved. I was talking to Warren about that Warren's, like, I had no idea what he was going to be like as a bass player. And he was really, really, really good. And he, you know, encapsulated all those ideas that his dad had. And it's easy to say, well, yeah, of course he did. But you still have to execute on them. Even if you know the ideas, even if you have them in your head, you still have to deliver. And I think he really put a lot of time and effort into that. So it'll be fun to see. Now this will be the second time around where he's going to going to play with a bunch of different players in March at the the cap. And I love the cap. Sounds good, looks good visually. That's what I was talking about earlier. Such a great venue. Yeah, I, I went for the first time there and I, I absolutely loved that.

1:29:20 I went to my, I actually went to 1 fish show in my life too. I went to New Year's. I went to New Year's concert in 20, I think 16 or 7, I think is 16 to 17. And my girlfriend at the time, her, she and her whole family were super into it. I don't even know what I don't even know what I was getting into. And they're like, you don't even have to know. Just have a good just like, and I was stone cold sober. I, I didn't drink, I didn't smoke at the time. I, I, I, I always, we took a train from Jersey and just got in along. The train was just packed of people going from Jersey to the concert. And it was just, it was just a wild 3 hours of just the funkiest, you know, music that like I've ever heard and the balloons everywhere and the balls everywhere and, and the lights and, and they're telling me the light is the, is the, is the, is the last member of the band.

1:30:07 And I'm like, I don't even know what world I'm in, but like, this is crazy. It's so cool. So a straight normie like me was able to appreciate that long before my taste had developed, I guess. Listen, I I think that's what they would they would aspire to that, right? They want to they want to welcome everyone in under the tent who maybe doesn't entirely yet it they want to bring everyone on the on the bus. But yeah, listen, Chris Corona, right, fifth member of the band. He does his thing. I think, you know, he's been there forever and he certainly knows what he's doing and he knows the music so exceptionally well and can anticipate it in ways that are stunning. True. Yeah, Dean, this is so much fun. So you got to finally connect and maybe I hope to do this again at some point.

1:30:50 But it was so nice meeting, getting to talk to you and hearing some of your thoughts and experiences. And this is this is really really from the bottom of my heart is real treat. And I really am so happy that we're able to record and connect and do this. Cheers, man. Let me know if you end up doing a another collaboration and and if you want that South Florida beer, I'm more than happy. I'm more than happy to hook you up. Julie Nolan, appreciate it, Sir. Nice talking to you. Thanks so much. Have a great night. Take care. Take care.