Music Series 6: Adam White / MoTown Roots / Rhythm and Blues / Backdoor Talent

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and We're Live Adam White.
Mr. White, how are you?

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I'm so happy to have you join me
today.

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Light was good to be here for
him.

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Thank you, I'm good, I'm good.
It's an early evening in London.

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Looking forward to dinner
shortly.

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There you go.
Wonderful is is the is it as

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common in London to have a pint
of Guinness as it is in Ireland

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as on like a frequent basis just
to catch up with someone on the

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street or something like that?
It's probably more common in

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Ireland.
I mean, it certainly happens

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here.
That's it.

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Of course, I don't drink
Guinness, so how would I know?

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Well, there you go.
OK, you don't drink at all.

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You just don't drink Guinness.
No, no, I just, I don't like you

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don't never enjoyed beer.
You know, I see wine and

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spirits.
Wine and spirits.

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OK, well then what works works
is what I think I I've been to

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Dublin a couple of times and
I've I started off had a friend

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of mine that plays music in
Orlando and Irish guy Shane

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Farrell and I hope to actually
recorded him soon too.

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He's a fascinating, fascinating
fungi and you know, and, and,

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and he, I used to, when I was
single, I used to go to Orlando

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for business quite a bit.
And I'll get a hotel, especially

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during COVID, it was quiet and
it was cheap.

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And I'll go to and I'll go hear
some live music at Raglan Rd.

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where, you know, I could, I
could count, I could count all

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the time.
I just great music being there

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and I would be there.
I was, I was single and I and

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everything was locked down
around me and I was, you know,

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and I was dying for some, you
know, relationships and some

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really, you know, some life and,
and I'll go and then I'll get

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exposed to all these great Irish
tunes and all these, you know,

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folk songs and, and that started
me down a whole fun path and it

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was really, really cool.
Yeah, Dublin is a great city, It

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really is.
Yeah, wonderful.

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So I'm reached.
I reached out to you because I

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have a music series and I love
to learn the background of music

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and learn go in depth as to, you
know, not just experience great

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music and not just hear it, but
also I think that once you get

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to know it on a more personal
level, get to know it a little

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deeper and it cut was our
appreciation for it and it helps

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develop a real relationship.
Ted and and also I think that we

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find that I I when I think of
music and I, I tried teaching

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this to my students a little
bit, my high school students who

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are very reluctant to listen to
my old music and I I say it's

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like meeting, listening to new,
new music is like meeting

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someone for the first time.
You know, you have an initial

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judgment based on like what your
initial, you know, what the

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first thing you see is and like
you're processing something new.

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And then as it becomes a little
bit more familiar, then you

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could start noticing a little
bit more detail to that person.

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Oh, you know, I, you know, he
likes, he laughs the same jokes

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with me.
You know, we both like the same

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football team.
You know, we both, you know,

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whatever it might be about drink
Guinness, you know, and, and,

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and then as you, and then you
get to know someone and then you

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really build a relationship with
them.

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And then you can have really
wonderful things happen,

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obviously in relationships.
And I think that happens with

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music too.
So the more we get to, the more

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we're exposed to it, the more we
could recognize the depth to it.

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And then I think that learning
about the music and the genre

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and the history also helps in
that way.

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Yes, I mean, I think, you know,
most people just enjoy music for

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what it is.
I, I think I've come to believe,

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whereas, you know, whatever the
percentage is, maybe 20% of

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music lovers want to go deeper,
want to know more, want to know

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everything if they possibly can,
because they're so moved by the

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music that they need to know how
it came to be.

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Whereas most people, I think are
quite happy just to hear it and

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enjoy it.
It doesn't invalidate their

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enjoyment, but they treat it in
a different way.

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And so I, I agree with you.
It is, it is fascinating to dig

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deeper.
That's really what happened to

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me when I first, you know, got
into music was you you start,

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you appreciate it.
And then you want to know much

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more.
You've got to know more.

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It, you know, who are these
people?

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What how did they do this, all
of that?

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Yeah, I, I recognize that, that
very much.

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Yeah, yeah.
And it, and you know, for a long

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time I was, I was specifically,
I appreciated the lyrics for

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music.
I'd listen to music for lyrics.

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So I'd find the best poets that
I could find, the Van Morrison's

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and the Bob Dylan's.
And, you know, and even, and

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even as I ventured off towards
like the more musically inclined

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music, so the jam music or the
Blues or whatever, you know,

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even then I would still kind of
keep an eye out for the ones

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that had deeper lyrics that I
could speak a little bit more

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closely to.
But then I started understanding

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music.
And once I started playing

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guitar a little bit, I started
appreciating the music as the

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music and as the language in and
of itself.

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And I wasn't counting on just
the lyrics to, to speak to me,

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but I'm counting on the, on the
musician to speak to me.

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And, and, and that's, and that,
that was a real transformation.

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And, and you know, and it's
funny because I have a hard time

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receiving recommendations from
people.

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So I was like, you should listen
to that.

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Like, you don't even know what I
like, man.

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I'm not going to try this out.
But as I as I learned to

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appreciate music as the music, I
found myself much more willing

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to kind of open up to it.
Yeah, yeah, I can understand

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that.
Certainly playing music, you

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know, is very different.
You know, it takes, it takes you

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to a different place and and you
appreciate things that

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previously you had no idea
about.

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So yes, I completely agree with
you.

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Of course, there are those who
might, might not accept that

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drummers can be musicians, which
was what I was.

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But I want to talk to you about
that.

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I think that aside for the
moment.

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Well, the drumming or that
conversation.

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Well, how long did you play
drums for?

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Probably about four years or so,
I was in a band.

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It was in my hometown of
Bristol, in the West Country of

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England.
And I always had a sense of

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rhythm.
And, you know, I was always

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tapping on the table when I
heard music.

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And then I figured I'd be quite
interested in seeing, you know,

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seeing what it's like to learn
to be a drummer, which is what I

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did.
And then we joined a band that

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was resident in a club in
Bristol.

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It was, you know, we played R&B,
the three Jamaican guys and us

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and two white guys, me and the
keyboard player.

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And the club there called the
Bamboo Club was, you know, very

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hip in, in a part of of Bristol.
And you know, we played R&B and

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jazz for the most part.
That's so cool.

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And it, you know, it was, it was
wonderful.

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And then then we got offered a
tour of Italy and I really

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didn't want to go tour Italy, so
I left.

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Really.
Yeah.

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You passed up a touring gig?
No, no way.

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Interesting.
Well, can I ask?

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I mean, so you took you did it
for about a couple of years.

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What?
Why would people you think

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musically kind of give drummers
a harder time about the fact

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about not being clinical
musicians?

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Just, you know, for people to
that that don't that aren't

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musically inclined understand.
That's a good question.

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I think, I think it's in the,
you know, in the rhythmic nature

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of drumming as opposed to music
and notes and harmonies and, and

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melodies.
And I think that's, that's got a

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lot to do with, you know, and
drummers are always sort of made

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fun of and not least of all
because, you know, they're

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usually the last to leave the
stage because they got to

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dismantle the kit and take it
out to the van and all of that

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stuff.
It's become stereotypical in a

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way.
But you know, you if you have a

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sense of rhythm, so much music
is is predicated on on rhythm.

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And so you understand it in a
way better, I think than than

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many can not musicians, but you
know, civilians if you like so.

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And I guess you know, my my
interest in my ability and

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rhythm also has a lot to do with
why I was drawn to Motown,

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because arguably the finest
rhythm section in in popular

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music for many years.
Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.
And well, yeah, let's let's talk

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about that because, oh, man,
there's so many, there's so many

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fun places to go.
I want to talk.

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Well, why don't you tell me a
little bit about where, about

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how you got exposed to Motown,
if you don't mind?

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Because my understanding, at
least my superficial

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understanding, is that England
was primarily or for a long time

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influenced primarily by the rock
and Blues scene, right?

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Motown was AI.
Maybe You Can Tell me was a

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little bit more R&B and almost
gospely almost, I had a bigger,

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much more bigger brass sound and
almost a bigger.

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It had a bigger sound, I think
than a lot of what people would

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associate with Blues or rock,
which are typically just, you

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know, a three or four or five
piece band and a much more

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stripped down sound, you know.
Right, Yeah.

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Which were, you know, those kind
of bands were very popular in

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clubs, you know, they were part
of nightlife, etcetera,

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etcetera.
Well, yeah, Motown was, was very

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different.
I think what an, an important

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thing to realise if you're going
to put it into a British context

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is that, you know, we did not
have radio in, in Britain,

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commercial radio like the, the
US.

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There were no radio stations all
over the country.

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We had the BBC and it had a a
channel network called the Light

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Programme and it would play some
pop music at certain times of

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the day.
So that was the primary source.

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And you know, you could hear
some of the hits of the day that

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way.
But the other one, and I'm

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talking about the early 60s, was
something called Radio

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Luxembourg, which was a
commercial channel that was

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beamed out of continental
Europe.

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And from 7:00 to midnight, they
played, you know, lots of pop

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records basically that's what it
was.

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And the programs were sponsored
by record companies.

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So there'd be an hour of of
stuff from EMI and an hour of

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stuff from Decker and so on.
But it was the only way for the

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every night to hear the latest
hits.

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And so I think a lot of how why
it took longer for Motown to

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connect in the UK is as much to
do with that.

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And in particular, when pirate
radio started in in the UK, they

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were playing lots of Motown and
that's when it began to take

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hold.
Up to that point, it was

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relatively obscure.
There weren't many outlets for

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it.
You know, music people knew that

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that The Beatles, among other
bands, were influenced by

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Motown.
You know, The Beatles notably

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because they had three Motown
songs on the second album.

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So that was an, you know,
awareness of it.

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But you know, in the wider
popular audience, there really

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wasn't much record.
People didn't hear it.

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It was as simple as that.
And you also had to remember

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that, that, you know, the first
half of the 60's, The Beatles

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rolled everything and everything
that came with that.

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The beat boom, all of the other
bands, the Stones, The Who, many

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other more obscure ones, a lot
of that was was predicated on

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influenced by American R&B.
So and that dominated

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everything.
So you know that that's all you

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would hear and that's all people
wanted to hear.

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It was, it was exciting.
It's very different to the way

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it had been before.
So with the new generation

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growing up, they were very taken
with that.

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And so it took longer for Motown
to breakthrough in the UK in

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part because of that.
Which, uh, which Beatles songs

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are the are where the Motown
covers that were?

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Maybe that's what I want, which
was original.

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00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,160
Barrett Strong.
You've really got to hold on me.

224
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,120
By the miracles.
No way.

225
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,800
And please, Mr. Poston, by the
Marvelous.

226
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,120
I love that one, by the way, Was
that, umm, remember that scene

227
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:42,400
in the Scorsese movie Mean
Streets where De Niro gets into

228
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:47,440
a fight in the pool club and
he's and, and, and Mr. Postman

229
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:52,520
comes on and, and honestly, I've
written actually, I've read a

230
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,360
couple of, of creative poems
about that because about, you

231
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,320
know, around college time and
it's such a fun like, I think

232
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,880
it's one of the early uses of
that a director would make take

233
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:07,160
music and have it be a, a polar
opposite of the vibe of the

234
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:08,960
actual scene that he's shooting.
Right.

235
00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,360
So the the bar fight, you don't
expect to have Mr. Postman

236
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,160
playing in the background, but
it it almost, but it does

237
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,400
actually what it what it what I
think it does is it reinforces

238
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,480
what the provide the people that
provoke the fight.

239
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,240
It helps understand their
mentality.

240
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,360
You know which it hey, this is
like, you know, there's every

241
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,440
day we're off and tumble guys.
You know, you want to get in the

242
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:32,880
ball for you go to fist fight,
get in the fist fight.

243
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,480
You want to crack a poke you
over someone's head.

244
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,120
You do that if you feel like it.
It's the same.

245
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,280
You know, it's business as usual
and it creates a lighter

246
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,800
environment of a of a violence
that you can't really put into

247
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,320
words, but you could direct.
Yes, yes, I can see what you

248
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:47,800
mean.
Yeah.

249
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,560
That's very cool.
That's very cool.

250
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:51,920
So, so it took some time.
Yeah.

251
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,480
I, I, because my association
actually with England and, and,

252
00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,840
and music in the 60s is, I
imagine like the first that

253
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,640
wrote the first Rolling Stones
album had like I think 6 or 7

254
00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:09,920
Blues covers on it.
And I remember reading, like you

255
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,520
said, that early 60s that The
Beatles dominated England.

256
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,280
I believe I read, and perhaps
you could confirm or not, or you

257
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,320
know, or contradict past this
account that The Beach Boys were

258
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,120
just as popular or potentially
more popular in England than The

259
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,440
Beatles were at that point, and
they're constantly going back

260
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,320
and forth in popularity.
No, they were not on that scale.

261
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,880
I mean, they were popular and
they had hit records, but but

262
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:38,480
nothing on the scale of The
Beatles.

263
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,240
No.
You know, if you think about the

264
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,280
impact The Beatles had in
America when, when they came in,

265
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:49,160
in 64, you know, we had two
years of that kind of total

266
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,240
domination by The Beatles and,
and, and to a lesser extent,

267
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,360
some of the bans that came
through while that was

268
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,680
happening.
But you have to realise that The

269
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,880
Beatles were such a contrast to
what had gone before, much as

270
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,240
rock'n'roll in America in the
late 50s was, you know, when

271
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,480
Chuck Berry and, and, and
everyone else Bill haded, when

272
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,160
that all exploded, it was so
very different to what had

273
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:13,840
happened before in popular
music.

274
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,000
And the The Beatles and
everything that went with that

275
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,880
in the UK, in Britain, that was
the same impact.

276
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,720
It, it closed down a generation
of, you know, music makers

277
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,200
because they weren't young and
hip or they were young, but they

278
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,240
were old school, you know,
singing ballads or they were

279
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,880
just, you know, cool guys.
But a band like The Beatles, it

280
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,120
changed everything.
And, and so that really was a

281
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,320
very powerful force in the UK
from, let's say, you know, a

282
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,960
well throughout the 60s.
But it, it blew up in 62 and

283
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:49,680
that sort of 62 to 65 period.
There was nothing else going on

284
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,960
but those bands that impact
that, that will change.

285
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,400
Gotcha, Gotcha.
Gotcha.

286
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,440
Yeah, yeah.
And then OK, so then tell me.

287
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,920
So tell me how you got
associated with Motown and how

288
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:06,200
you ended up really becoming I
guess a scholar and and what is

289
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:07,960
OK?
How about what is Motown to

290
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:09,160
start for anyone that doesn't
know?

291
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,920
Gosh, I was afraid you're going
to ask me that.

292
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,360
So not what is.
What is life?

293
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,840
You know, life, Yes, I mean, it
became a cultural force later in

294
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,960
its life.
But at the at the beginning it

295
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,560
was just exciting music of the
kind that hadn't certainly in

296
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,320
this country hadn't been heard
before.

297
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,760
You know, at its base, it's,
it's rhythm and soul, you know,

298
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,200
it's, it's the finest musicians
you could possibly imagine

299
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:46,800
playing on records sung by
artists and musicians, many of

300
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,960
whom had a gospel background and
therefore had a sound that was

301
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,240
certainly to, to us in England,
unique.

302
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,560
You know, we, we'd not heard
anything like this before.

303
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:03,520
So it in the the impact in the
US and the UK are quite

304
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,880
different because again, as
partly as I was saying before,

305
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,400
look at radio means you, you
know, you heard a great deal of

306
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,359
popular music.
We didn't get to hear that in to

307
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,640
the same extent.
So something like Motown really

308
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,440
was a bit of a revelation and it
was new and different.

309
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,880
But it's pretty hard to, you
know, put in into words what it

310
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:33,560
was beyond the incredible, you
know, musicality of it.

311
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,840
The singers, the band, the
songwriters, all of those things

312
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,360
coming together at that point
just was, you know, was

313
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,280
extraordinary.
Yeah.

314
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,200
So would you call it that?
Would you say that it was a

315
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,800
particular point in time or we
just say it's a genre like from,

316
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,160
let's say a collect, a
collective collection of

317
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:59,520
musicians or artists from, you
know, 60 to 70, sixties to the

318
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:00,880
70s?
Or would you say that it

319
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:02,200
continued to today?
How did you?

320
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,280
How do you feel about it?
Well, the 60s were a very

321
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:11,440
specific sound, which was a
result of, of what Motown was,

322
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,760
you know, record company with,
with everything it needed itself

323
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,080
to make music, you know, its own
studios, own musicians,

324
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,800
everything that was
self-contained.

325
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,680
That was a very important part
of Motown.

326
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,040
It was self-sufficient.
About the only part of Motown

327
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,440
that it didn't have itself was
distribution.

328
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,200
So it depended on distributors
in the US.

329
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,320
To.
Get the records out there.

330
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,760
But everything else you think
about it, it had in house and

331
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,720
that was not unusual and
certainly as what created the,

332
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,600
in the beginning, the family
vibe.

333
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,320
And that's why all of those
artists felt very much part of

334
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,640
one thing.
They're all collab, they're

335
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,120
always collaborating, right?
All the artists.

336
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,360
And just to tell some artists
that are associated Motown for

337
00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:58,560
people, for anyone that doesn't,
you know, an audience that might

338
00:18:58,560 --> 00:18:59,440
not.
Yeah, yeah, of course.

339
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,120
Well, I mean, I think the big
four really are Diana Ross,

340
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,360
Stevie Wonder, Smokey Robinson
and Marvin Gaye.

341
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,200
Those are the Titans of Motown.
Sure.

342
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,000
No, and that that wasn't
necessarily the case at the

343
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,640
beginning.
It took Stevie a while to to to

344
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:19,080
get to that point, but in the
60s, those artists and others at

345
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,520
Motown were very much part of
the machine that was creating

346
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:27,240
that music.
When the 70s arrived, Marvin and

347
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,320
Stevie in particular, you know,
wanted their own.

348
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:32,480
They wanted control of their own
music.

349
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,920
Up to that point, most of the
artists had depended on the

350
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,880
musicians and the songwriters
and the producers within Motown

351
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,800
to make those records.
Didn't write the songs, with the

352
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:46,440
exception, obviously, of, of
Smokey, but most of the artists

353
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,640
who recorded were singing other
people's songs.

354
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,480
That changed in the 70s with
with Marvin Gaye and with Stevie

355
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,840
Wonder because not only did they
write their own material at that

356
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,520
point, they were changing in
line with the politics and the

357
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,680
culture and what was happening
in the world in their world.

358
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,480
And that that was a very
different creature than Motown

359
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:15,560
in the first it's 1st 10 years.
Arguably more influential or but

360
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,480
certainly creatively as exciting
as you could imagine.

361
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,520
Sure.
But it it's almost sort of

362
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,400
better not to compare the 60s
and the 70s because they were

363
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:33,240
two very different machines.
If I can use that, can use that

364
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:38,120
word again for motor.
But yeah, those are really the

365
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:39,720
big four.
And clearly there were other

366
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,120
acts.
The temptations were were huge,

367
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:47,960
always bigger in America than in
Britain and The Four Tops who

368
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:49,520
were bigger in Britain than in
America.

369
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,640
And and you know, a fair number
of other artists going to start

370
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,200
in the pips, you know, people,
others that people will know.

371
00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,560
But the big four really Diana
Ross.

372
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,480
And you could add to that The
Supremes, Smokey Robinson,

373
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:08,840
Miracles, Barbie Games, TV.
Was there was there any kind of

374
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,080
pushback in England or stigma
because music was predominantly

375
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,760
black and based in black
culture?

376
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,320
Not really.
No, not to the to, to the extent

377
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:23,080
that it was in the States.
It, it was more in, in the 60s

378
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,560
in particular, more a degree of
curiosity because, you know,

379
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,360
most, most Britons certainly
are.

380
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,400
You know, someone like me, at
that age, we hadn't been exposed

381
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,640
to black culture.
We had absolutely no idea what

382
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,920
it was.
So it was completely new.

383
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,760
You know, not everyone wants to
sign up to something new, but it

384
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,480
was totally new.
And you know, Britain was

385
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:51,040
changing and you know, there
were more black immigrants

386
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:56,080
coming, particularly because the
government, you know, subsidized

387
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,280
and wanted a lot of people from,
you know, citizen from Jamaica

388
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,360
to come and work in the UK.
They needed in the post war

389
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:07,800
period needed people to do the
rebuild the country if you like.

390
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,600
So that brought, you know,
Jamaican culture into the UK,

391
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:16,080
but it took a while for that to
to sink in.

392
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,800
So at the beginning really, and
I'm talking about the 60s, it

393
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,800
was a curiosity.
It wasn't, you know, it wasn't

394
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,200
the same attitude.
We hadn't lived with it, which

395
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,360
isn't to say there wasn't racism
and prejudice, but it was pretty

396
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:33,640
small potatoes and it was more
interesting.

397
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:38,040
I mean, the irony is, you know,
in as no time started to break

398
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,800
come through and one of the most
popular television shows on

399
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,280
British TV was the Black and
white Minstrel Show.

400
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:49,440
I mean, really, you know, you
got these people dressed up and

401
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,040
painted up as black and.
Women.

402
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,520
Really.
Yeah, I didn't know that.

403
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,320
Huge albums, number one albums.
I mean, it was extraordinary.

404
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:05,400
But I also remember when
interviewing Mary Wilson one

405
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,520
time at The Supremes, she told
me that when they first came to

406
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,920
the UK, they found little or no
evidence of prejudice and

407
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,120
bigotry and racism.
They, you know, it was it, it

408
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:22,640
just wasn't there.
And so, you know, they, they

409
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,760
enjoyed coming here for, for
that reason, much of the same

410
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,120
way as American musicians had
for decades been going to

411
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:33,240
France, because France was a
very hospitable country to black

412
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:38,040
musicians And, and, and more so
it wasn't to the same extent.

413
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,160
There was more curiosity about
it was a novelty rather than

414
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,520
something that had all of the
other implications, political

415
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,040
etcetera, that you had in the US
at that time.

416
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,640
Yeah, that's really what's
interesting to me is because I

417
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:58,320
think that a lot of the a lot of
the result the the culture that

418
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,160
existed in the 60s from my
understanding.

419
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,800
And I could I could really see
this even with my own family, my

420
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,120
grandparents and parents and
aunts and uncles and that the

421
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:09,800
previous two generations,
especially because I I my my

422
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,880
grandparents are very
conservative Holocaust

423
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,360
surviving, you know, Polish
immigrants or German immigrants.

424
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,000
And, you know, there's a very
particular the the the

425
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,200
conservatives, the the, the type
of conservative is very, very

426
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,920
much a don't do, don't look at
anything else kind of

427
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,800
conservative, you know, you
know, very it's it's very

428
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,400
restraining.
And and I think that a lot of

429
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,720
the great music that exploded
out of that was almost out of

430
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,360
defiance of saying, yes, don't
tell me what I could look at or

431
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:44,000
what I can't look at.
Don't tell me what I put,

432
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,640
whether or not and you'll listen
to that push back that conflict,

433
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,040
you know?
Yeah, until when I want to

434
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:50,560
extend.
That was a generational thing.

435
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,400
Yeah, kids who were.
Born in, in the post war period,

436
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,920
such as myself, you know, we had
a completely different view of

437
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,680
the world and, and, you know, we
wanted our time in it.

438
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,160
Yeah, yeah.
You know, as you say, don't tell

439
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,840
us what to do or what to think
or how to behave.

440
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,760
We're, we're going to figure it
out for ourselves.

441
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,680
And creatively in, in Britain as
in other parts of the world, it

442
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,000
was a very exciting, innovative
time.

443
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,560
Yeah, yeah.
And you know what, I actually

444
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,360
don't think it's dissimilar from
today.

445
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,920
I, I think that there was
something about, and, you know,

446
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,800
to, and I'm not trying to say
this in a particularly political

447
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,080
way or not, but something about
the lockdowns of COVID and

448
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:41,920
something about the corporatism
of, of woke ideology, I would

449
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,120
call it just applied in a, in a
Corp university corporate

450
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:47,720
environment.
Was it inherently, I think very

451
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,680
restrictive for a lot of people.
And whether whether their

452
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,960
justifications for it or not is
totally up to, you know, like

453
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,160
it's not my place to talk now,
but it was restrictive like by

454
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,240
definition.
And I think that we're, we're,

455
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,080
we're, I think that there's a,
there's been a kind of explosion

456
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,280
since then of a pushback of
don't tell me what I could do or

457
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,600
not, don't tell me what to think
or not.

458
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,880
And I think that it's actually
also manifesting in music

459
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,400
because it's been a very
creatively fertiled underground

460
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,360
music time and a lot of quote UN
quote strange genres that have

461
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:21,480
not been universally or
historically very popular that

462
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,680
are coming to light now.
And it's really, really cool.

463
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,960
It's a lot of fun.
Also, those that music, those

464
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,120
styles, those innovations have
avenues and exposure that didn't

465
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:33,680
exist before.
Yes, certainly.

466
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,120
Part of it you.
Know I listen to every Billy.

467
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,960
I listen to pretty much every
Billy string show now because I

468
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,400
have nugs.net and I and I sign
up and I pay 20 bucks a month

469
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,080
and I and I could listen to all
his live shows as they're

470
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,920
happening in video or an audio
and then I listen back to it for

471
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,040
the weeks following and I keep
up with the band.

472
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,080
I'm like, you know, and you can
hear this show was awesome.

473
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,760
Hey, you want to hear like a
great malfunction junction?

474
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,120
Listen to the one from November,
you know, 19th.

475
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:03,360
And it actually took, and I
think enormous part of that was,

476
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,280
was so popular about the Dylan
world and the dead world and the

477
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,560
in the spring and, and the
people that would bootleg all

478
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,800
their albums is it creates this
little vibrant community.

479
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,160
And I know that it began in in
the 60s and 70s with people

480
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,560
trading tapes and records and,
you know, and you just, you'd,

481
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,120
you'd get a hard copy of it
somehow.

482
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:23,360
You just mail it around to your
friends, you know?

483
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:24,960
Right.
Yeah, yeah.

484
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,280
Well, I mean, I used to tape
music off the radio.

485
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,800
And bear in mind that we didn't
have radio stations in the music

486
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,440
radio like you did in the USI
would, you know, a reel to reel

487
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,880
tape recorder in front of the
radio with a microphone, which

488
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,320
is, you know, that was how you
you kept the music that you

489
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,840
wouldn't necessarily buy,
couldn't afford to buy or it

490
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,680
wasn't available.
Revano's consume.

491
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,160
Revano's expensive.
Was what?

492
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,920
Oh, yeah, not particularly.
I mean, you know, when you're a

493
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,520
teenager, you haven't got any
money anyway, right?

494
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,320
So you're you're very careful
what you spend your money on.

495
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,040
I see.
At least that was my experience.

496
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:16,000
But yes, I think that that point
about music today is is is very

497
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,560
interesting.
The other extraordinary part of

498
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:25,640
that is virtually all music in
recorded music history is

499
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,880
accessible, you know, because of
streaming, because of those that

500
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,640
simply wasn't the, I mean, that
wasn't the case 20 years ago,

501
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,160
never mind 60 years ago when I
was growing up, you, you didn't

502
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,600
have access to, to all of that
extraordinary talent and

503
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,560
creative and recording
recordings that existed.

504
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,960
So I think the other thing about
today is that people have the

505
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:55,880
opportunity to be educated or
learn or curious about music

506
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,640
that existed before in a much,
you know, in a much more

507
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,560
exciting way than used to be the
case.

508
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,040
Ology and the neurochemistry
between music and and and our

509
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,760
bodies, by the way, makes a
very, very interesting argument

510
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,720
that drumming is actually the
healthiest as you as you get

511
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,920
older for cognitive well-being
to actually drum because it gets

512
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,520
blood flowing from all four
limbs to your brain.

513
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,840
Really, really excellent for
Alzheimer's, short term memory

514
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,440
loss, Tourette's syndrome,
Parkinson's, all of this.

515
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,720
I mean it's it's incredible that
so there's a lot of but you know

516
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,640
to talk about your ability to
dive in.

517
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,360
He was talking about how there's
a part of our music from

518
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,440
melodies and words and you could
feel it.

519
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,440
You don't necessarily need to
fill it in and still keep up

520
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,360
with it, which is like scatting
and skin, you know, scatter that

521
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,680
about a bloop.
And and he said, case in point,

522
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,560
Ella Fitzgerald in this famous
concert in Berlin in 19, you

523
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,880
know, whatever it was, I think
like 5068 or whatever said, you

524
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:09,960
know, did this during Big Mac
the knife.

525
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,160
And I literally I read that
paragraph.

526
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,160
I pulled out my phone.
I put in Ella Fitzgerald, you

527
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,160
know, Berlin, it came it up.
I found a the exact thing that

528
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,160
he's referring to and it was
incredible.

529
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,280
And I was like, this cool Is
this is such a great time to be

530
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,120
a music lover, you know, It's so
great.

531
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,960
Previous generations have never
had that opportunity.

532
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,160
They would, they wouldn't.
They couldn't dream of it.

533
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,440
But you know how to do that.
I.

534
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,720
Mean, you know, you could read
about things you could, you

535
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,520
know, you could learn, but but
hearing it was something else

536
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,760
completely different.
It is remarkable.

537
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,600
And that would change the nature
of music and musicians.

538
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,880
It just it will, yeah.
So I agree it's a very exciting

539
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,400
period.
Plus the technology that exists

540
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,240
that enables you to do a great
deal more than you could before,

541
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,920
although that's a you know, it's
it's it's argumentative, of

542
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,400
course, because because of
technology creating music as

543
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,280
opposed to people.
But that's what do you think

544
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,720
about that subject?
What do?

545
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,200
You what do you I actually, so
I, I hosted last week the entire

546
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,720
week with my 10th grade class, a
host of AI debates, 5 minute

547
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,680
debates based on different AI
topics and each member of the

548
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,520
class, you know, would pair up
and, and when we pro 1 would be

549
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,520
anti.
And one of the things we talked

550
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,000
about was music, music and AI.
And I, and actually no one

551
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:33,160
wanted to defend it.
So I defended the, the, the, I

552
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,040
guess allowing AI to kind of
flood the music marketplace and,

553
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,120
and what do you, what do you
think of it?

554
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,440
Have you have you listened to AI
generated music or, or did you

555
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,640
know, do you have any kind of
philosophy or idea about how how

556
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,800
you think it could go or whether
it's good or not?

557
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,960
The answer your first part of
the question is no.

558
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,000
I've had no made no effort to to
listen to that.

559
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:05,560
The second part, I tend to see
it in the way that technological

560
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,120
developments have occurred in,
in the past, in, in the 20th

561
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,080
century, which relates to music.
Technology changes things.

562
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,520
It it just does.
And, you know, technology

563
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:22,200
changed the way that music
evolved from from acoustic to to

564
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,440
electric.
It it changed, you know, when

565
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:32,720
records went from 70 eights of
vinyl to to cassettes to CDs

566
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,560
Technology changes things.
Electric guitars change.

567
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,200
I mean, there's any number of
instances where technology

568
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,320
changes the means with which
people make music.

569
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:49,760
And that's perfectly normal.
You know, it's a debatable it

570
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,480
it's, it's argumented now
because one point of view says

571
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,920
that it is taking away from
musicians.

572
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,240
Yeah.
But I'm, I'm not, I don't

573
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,160
necessarily subscribe to that.
It's at the early stages.

574
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,840
And clearly, you know, there's,
there will be some impact, but I

575
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,640
don't actually believe it will
in the long term be, be anything

576
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,920
but good for music and musicians
and for the audiences.

577
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:20,080
Listen, you know, file sharing
was considered negative when it

578
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,520
first began.
It was all about, you know,

579
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,360
theft and, and, and, and
musicians not earning what they

580
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,040
should from recordings.
And, and now you know, the

581
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,440
evolution of file sharing into
digital streaming means that the

582
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,040
world have a has access to all
the music it could ever imagine.

583
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,960
And the whole model of the
industry flipped on its head.

584
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,800
Exactly.
So technology changes things and

585
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,120
it, I, I think ultimately it
will be good for, for music.

586
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,360
It'll, it'll be difficult for
some people and parts of it, no

587
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,960
question about it.
But ultimately I think it will

588
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,360
evolve to to a level where
people will accept it and and

589
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,280
then exploit it and make it work
for them.

590
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,200
Sure, sure.
And my, my argument I think

591
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,360
would be end up being, I guess
too too thoughtful about it.

592
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,360
I didn't think too much about
it.

593
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,320
But I would imagine that this
would actually be much more

594
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,239
beneficial to performing artists
than not.

595
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,280
And the artists that depend on
the studio and a lot of editing

596
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,040
and a lot of heavy editing are
going to be in a lot of trouble.

597
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:31,520
But the artists who make their
living on performing great music

598
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,239
in collaboration with other
people in a band with that

599
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,440
magic, with that magic, I think
that's going to become almost

600
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,239
like the top.
That's going to be a top tier of

601
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,239
of music experience.
So you could have like the

602
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,480
what's your music that you just
have to throw on while, you

603
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,440
know, while you're while you're
jogging and you don't really

604
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:51,880
care what you're doing.
You just need something to get

605
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,760
you going.
And then there's the musical

606
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,639
experience that you want where
you want to be with the crowd,

607
00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:56,560
you want to be with your
friends.

608
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,240
You want to experience of
watching a band riff with one

609
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:03,440
another, you know, and watching
the improv and watching it

610
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,000
happen live and participating in
it.

611
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,920
And I don't think that's going
to go away just because AI makes

612
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,360
music too, you know, like if
anything, it's even more in

613
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,000
demand.
You'll be like, hey, I want it,

614
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,680
I want to see more of that.
That's awesome.

615
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,960
Wow, awesome.
So so Motown and R&B were your

616
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,920
two are your two your two loves,
I suppose.

617
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,040
How do they in what ways are
they similar?

618
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,720
In what way are they different?
And people I feel like now

619
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:31,240
associate R&B, or I do at least
with rap.

620
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,640
And so I have to say rhythm and
Blues whenever I say rhythm and

621
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,280
Blues because I say I, I, I tend
to think rap nowadays.

622
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:39,720
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah.

623
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:48,720
Well, I mean, you know, there
was a time when I thought of of

624
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:55,200
Motown really is all part of an
R&B genre, but it carved out an

625
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,560
identity for itself because it
had a distinctive sound.

626
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,600
But there were many wonderful
R&B artists and, and, you know,

627
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,440
because I started to listen to
music in the early 60s.

628
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,440
You know, the R&B acts around at
that point were some of the

629
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,200
exciting ones from the likes of
Atlantic Records.

630
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,720
You know, Ray Charles, The
Drifters, people like that,

631
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:21,640
James Brown.
I love The Drifters.

632
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,480
But yeah, you, you know, there
was, it was exciting.

633
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:35,080
It wasn't as polished or
produced or necessarily, as I

634
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,280
was going to say, distinctive.
That's perhaps not the word, but

635
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,960
it was different to Motown.
Motown had a sound.

636
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,440
Used was a good way to put it.
I think produced Motown was like

637
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,240
a performance.
Every song is like a show, you

638
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:49,600
know?
Yes, but there was so, so many

639
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,680
wonderful acts that came through
in the in the late 50s and the

640
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:59,680
early 60s particularly as some
of the songwriters and producers

641
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:05,520
and musicians had access to the
tools that would make the the

642
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,600
sound, make their music as
modern as anything else that was

643
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:09,880
around.
Right.

644
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,920
So, and, and you also have to
remember, as I said before, a

645
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,240
lot of those R&B records, not
just Motown, but a lot of those

646
00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:21,560
R&B records, you know, influence
bands that broke through in, in

647
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,600
the 60s from this country and
elsewhere.

648
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,680
Yeah.
So I was, I had a, you know, a

649
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,320
parallels set.
Motown was my primary point of

650
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,560
interest, but I was of course
taken with the stuff that was

651
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,400
coming out of stacks, the stuff
that was coming out of Atlantic,

652
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:40,760
you know, some of them very
obscure.

653
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,320
Curtis Mayfield in The
Impressions.

654
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,000
I adored that music.
It was extraordinary so.

655
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,120
Ready is one of my favourites.
Oh man, people get ready.

656
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,880
Is is too stunning, too good.
Stunning.

657
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,360
Yeah.
And, and a good example of how,

658
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,480
you know, those gospel roots.
I mean, it's, it's a gospel

659
00:37:58,480 --> 00:37:59,680
song.
It's a church song.

660
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,800
Yeah.
Mayfield was, was one-of-a-kind.

661
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,920
So there was a lot else going on
in in what it at the time was

662
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,480
sort of was actually called new
wave R&B because it was

663
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,120
different to what had existed in
the 50s, more bluesy, you know,

664
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,920
the 50s stuff, more jazzing.
Clyde R&B in the 60s was

665
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,640
incredibly sophisticated,
produced indeed by all sorts of

666
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,000
interesting people.
Jerry Ragavoy, Bert Burns, all

667
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,920
sorts of people like that.
But that was really, in a sense,

668
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:35,480
all part of the same innovation
and excitement that was coming

669
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,680
out of of black music in that
decade.

670
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,600
Yeah.
Later in the 70s, it was Gamble

671
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,600
and now founded Philly.
And then as you carried on,

672
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:48,840
eventually yeah turned into into
rap and hip hop.

673
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,640
Yeah.
But I wonder why it changed and

674
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,080
I don't know, I'm curious why
and how it changed because it

675
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:58,680
feels like such a dramatic
change.

676
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,680
I mean, if you, if you think
back to the music that's be it's

677
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,200
considered R&B today.
And then you go back to like,

678
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,240
you know, the names that you
mentioned, like Ray Charles,

679
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:12,760
like, I mean, you know, I don't,
I, I, I don't know if I even see

680
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,400
the, the only roots that I could
potentially see, And this is the

681
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,480
only place perhaps even as a
drummer, and you might, you

682
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,360
might understand more than me,
is that if, if R&B is really

683
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,560
about rhythm and Blues, then
perhaps emphasis on rhythm with

684
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:29,360
the rap, with rapping is what
the new age perspective is.

685
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,000
Is that right?
I think that's, I think that's

686
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,360
right there for him.
Very much so.

687
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,840
I mean, you know, rap, the whole
thing is predicated on rhythm

688
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,800
being rhythm of lyrics or, you
know, rhythm of a track, right?

689
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,600
Oh, absolutely.
I, I think I, I have a view that

690
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,720
one of the reasons it came
through, broke through and

691
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:56,600
became so important was that in
the late 80's, the 80s and the

692
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,360
late 80s when I was working in
the States, a lot of black radio

693
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,960
was playing.
Softer music, It was adult R&B.

694
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,520
It was, you know, Anita Baker,
singers like that, which I think

695
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,320
the kids found it pretty hard to
relate to.

696
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,400
It was.
It was a more sophisticated

697
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,560
sound.
Interesting you think music got

698
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,680
older and the audience and the
audience got younger.

699
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:22,520
I I think that's what really
happened.

700
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,840
And to an extent that that was
the case because the music

701
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,920
getting older appealed to older
or the boomers, you know, there

702
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,800
we were getting older.
So we wanted to hear Atlantic

703
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,960
Star or Anita Baker rather than,
you know, some, some 17 year

704
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,240
old.
Right.

705
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,120
And radio, by the way, of
course, had it's eye on the

706
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,560
boomers because they had money.
Yeah, they bought things.

707
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,000
So radio, advertising, all of
that.

708
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,240
It's an economic force as much
as anything.

709
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,560
And I think that's one of the
reasons rap came through and and

710
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,280
redefined music, including black
music, because the kids, you

711
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,600
know, the young are always the
ones who drive it ultimately.

712
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,800
And, and they didn't want to
listen to, you know,

713
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,360
sophisticated R&B.
Yeah.

714
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,240
How much you test me on that
theory, But I, it is something

715
00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:20,000
I, I do believe.
And that's in part because when

716
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,560
I was working at the business
that, you know, that was a sense

717
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,640
I have of R&B getting more
adult.

718
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,560
Yeah, which I'm curious about
how many of the R&B artists

719
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,200
would be pissed off to hear
their music be called adult, you

720
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,000
know, or called, they're called
sophisticated.

721
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,680
And they'll be like, you know,
there's nothing sophisticated

722
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,200
about us.
We're just a bunch of kids being

723
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,800
around, you know, it's very
funny.

724
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,400
It's like, yeah, I can't imagine
if someone told me, hey, you got

725
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,840
to listen to this sophisticated
show, this guy frying Hersh

726
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,160
right now.
I'm like, dude, what are you

727
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,280
talking about, man?
You know, I mean, there's

728
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,000
nothing, you know, I mean, we, I
like to have a good time, but

729
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,120
you know, I'm not looking to be
sophisticated.

730
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,600
I'm not looking to not appeal to
teens or to, you know, the youth

731
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:02,880
or anything like that, if
anything.

732
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,120
Remember the quiet storm radio
format?

733
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,960
You know, that broke out.
That was, I don't RMB basically

734
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,400
was softer black music, R&B,
whatever, you know, from a

735
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,120
Smokey Robinson song.
But you know, if you're 18, you

736
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,640
can't relate to that.
Yeah, but someone did at some

737
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,160
point and I don't know whether
it's because it's new and

738
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,040
rebellious in that way or
whether it's that the taste in

739
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,280
music or the appreciate or, or
what the music would even imply

740
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:34,240
or lead to or how it related all
all changed, you know, And umm,

741
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,360
and like what we said, music, I
think for a lot of people,

742
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,000
whether they realize it or not,
is a lot about relatability and

743
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,800
like be feeling like someone
speaking your language in some

744
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:45,560
form or another.
You might.

745
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:46,600
Probably be more.
Yeah.

746
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,000
And that's that's really what
happened with hip hop.

747
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,400
I mean, that's how it was a new
generation.

748
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,920
When you're young, you want to
define yourself.

749
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,520
Yeah, right.
And you're looking for things to

750
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,120
define you and you.
Don't want to be told you're

751
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,440
this, you know, kind of like
this.

752
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,040
I can exactly.
Right.

753
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,160
And, and by the way, that's what
happened to me when I was a

754
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:12,480
teenager with with Motown.
I was living in a country and

755
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,640
The Beatles and the Stones and
all of that were in this

756
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,360
capable.
I hated them.

757
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,160
I didn't, I didn't want to hear
any of that stuff, partly

758
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,040
because they covered a lot of
American R&B stuff and I felt

759
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:31,080
that they were stealing from the
originals, but also because I, I

760
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,240
was trying to define myself and
I didn't want to be like all the

761
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:37,240
rest.
I found Motown.

762
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:39,480
It's like nobody knows what this
stuff is.

763
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,960
Oh, this is pretty cool.
And I, you know, that happens

764
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,480
with every generation.
You want something to help

765
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,920
define yourself different to
what went before.

766
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,320
So great, so great.
So maybe it's a good thing that

767
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,760
Motown stayed in the 60s and 70s
seventies then, because I think

768
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,880
that it's, I think that there's
a beauty to, you know, it's

769
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,720
almost, I'm sure you're you're,
you're, you're familiar, but I

770
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,640
grew up a huge Calvin and hops
fan, Bill Waters famous cartoon.

771
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,280
And he was depending who you're
talking to, infamous or, or or

772
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,920
famous for never publishing, you
know, another cartoon.

773
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,880
Once he decided that he was
done, he was like, I, I gave

774
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,720
what I had to give.
Anything more would be

775
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,160
cheapening the brand.
Anything more would be hurting.

776
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,440
You know, the what everything I
put into this, he didn't allow.

777
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,600
He he staved off, you know,
people trying to make movies and

778
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,960
sell their merchandising and he
and he just pushed it out

779
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,400
everything away moved to the
middle of Ohio and disappeared.

780
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,880
And like he's like, listen, this
is where this was for a

781
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,440
particular time and place.
If you like it in 20 years from

782
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,400
now, great.
You know, if not, like this was

783
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,080
what it's for.
And I feel like that's really

784
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:49,040
cool that a musical genre
almost, because Motown

785
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,600
definitely is a genre.
You look it up and I mean,

786
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,400
you're going to get enough
eclectic musicians, studios,

787
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,520
producers, I'm sure that that
are all, you know, either

788
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,000
wanting to be or under the
Motown genre.

789
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,040
Well, because of the calibre of
the of the work.

790
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,920
I mean, that's the point.
It, it wasn't just that it was,

791
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:13,440
you know, an intriguing,
fascinating, attractive sound

792
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,040
there.
There were the calibre of the

793
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,760
musicians and the singers and
the songwriters was so good.

794
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:21,760
Yeah, that was an important, but
it wouldn't have lasted if it

795
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,280
hadn't been for for the calibre
of the work.

796
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,960
Yeah, and it was.
Well, actually I wanted to talk

797
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,680
to you also about because I
there's also almost a great

798
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,400
Motown or R&B songbook.
And, you know, it's funny

799
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,600
because I don't think a lot of
people associate that

800
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,840
necessarily.
But, you know, for example, most

801
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,080
of the songs people don't know
that Frank Sinatra would sing

802
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,200
were just covers, were just part
of, you know, covers in the

803
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,080
Great American Songbook.
Yeah, and and.

804
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:48,880
Then you listen to the rest of
the Rat Pack.

805
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,000
You listen to, you know, people
offered listen to listen to any

806
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,080
of the guys and.
You marked into Amy Davis?

807
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:56,760
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.

808
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,880
Same with the exactly and and
they're all covering the same

809
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:01,600
songs.
They're singing the same songs

810
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,040
with their own little twist on
it.

811
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,000
And there's, and I, and I didn't
realize this, but there's a lot

812
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:13,920
of in house great Motown songs.
Everyone covers, you know, that

813
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,680
like whether it's Aretha
Franklin, whether it's, you

814
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:21,160
know, whether it's any of the
Motown Motown artist, Curtis

815
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,200
Mayfield, Smokey Robinson,
Stevie Wonder, they all sing

816
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,480
variations of that same song.
And there's a lot of really

817
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,720
great ones that I think people
don't realize are just like this

818
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:32,640
Motown songbook.
Yes, I couldn't agree more.

819
00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:37,160
What are some of?
Your favorites of those?

820
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,040
Well, I, I was just going to
point out an example of a song

821
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:45,400
that I discovered relatively
late in life, a Motown song, but

822
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,240
it was written by Smokey when he
was, it was like 20 or

823
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:51,600
something.
And it, it's a, it's a fairly

824
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,520
obscure song, but it's called
Your mother Called on me today.

825
00:46:55,160 --> 00:47:02,200
And it's about a, you know, a
girl and boy girlfriend,

826
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:08,960
boyfriend and the mother of the
boy doesn't want him associating

827
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:13,840
with this girl because he wants
she wants her son to be a

828
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,320
doctor, to be a, you know, grow
up to be a professional.

829
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,600
And she thinks that the girl is
not good for him with that goal

830
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:28,240
in mind.
And it's it's wonderful story.

831
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:32,240
Lyrics are so clever and I'm
thinking, I remember when I

832
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:34,720
heard it, which for the first
time was probably about 10 years

833
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:38,400
ago, because it wasn't never
recorded by anyone who meant

834
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,960
anything to anyone.
I thought, my God, how can a 20

835
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,720
year old write a song like this?
How can he be so sophisticated,

836
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:50,760
so clever when you had little or
no life experience And it was a,

837
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,760
it was an example of, of his
real talent.

838
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,320
And the original, you know, the
song was written in whatever it

839
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:03,080
was late 50s and you just think,
my goodness, this really was a

840
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:07,920
remarkable man song music man
songwriter talent.

841
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:14,760
And and there were others as
well at Motown, but he, you

842
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:16,800
know, Stevie obviously came
along a bit later.

843
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,400
But again, go back to that
point.

844
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,560
The calibre of the songwriting.
I mean, what it says.

845
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,160
I mean, you can you can drill
down to the roots of it.

846
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:33,680
Troy was a very schools that
taught music to a greater degree

847
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,760
than many other cities.
It had fabulous, you know,

848
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,000
schools as far as music and
musicians making music was

849
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:45,400
concerned.
There was a big retailer that

850
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:50,120
sold pianos and every home had
one of these pianos.

851
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:56,160
So it was incredibly musically
creative city, which is why

852
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,400
there were these extraordinary
music musicians and singers who

853
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,360
came out of it and and, you
know, Motown gave them the

854
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,600
opportunity.
So it was, you know, combination

855
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:12,760
of, of good luck, of of what how
these people had grown up, what

856
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,440
they had learned as they were
kids and growing up with music.

857
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:20,240
And then someone smart and
fortunate like Berry Gordy, who

858
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:26,640
knew how to tap into that and
build a company that could make

859
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,080
turn those those youngsters into
stars.

860
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,600
Yeah, yeah.
There's a lot to take in there,

861
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:34,800
I accept.
Yeah, it is.

862
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,000
It is.
I I, I, I was thinking more

863
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,360
along the lines though, because
especially as you differentiated

864
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,560
between the 60s and the 70s with
the 70s was a little bit more

865
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,720
songwriting and create
independently creative as

866
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:50,120
opposed to the 60s were more
kind of get it.

867
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,960
A song would be a production.
It would be that, you know, it

868
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,720
almost be done in house.
I think you said like that kind

869
00:49:55,720 --> 00:49:58,400
of you take like all the stuff
would be under the the brand and

870
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,600
like you'd bring the best singer
into the best, you know?

871
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:02,960
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.

872
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:07,120
Songs like, you know, so Smokey
Robinson has a bunch of songs

873
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,200
that everyone plays, you know,
or has a couple of songs that

874
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:17,560
everyone sings and did you.
Is that just collaboration?

875
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,200
Is that collaborative?
Is that is there you think that

876
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,040
energy of like jealousy or is
there more like I'm I'm lonely?

877
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:28,720
Yeah, person and try copy it.
Yeah.

878
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:33,160
I mean, Motown was incredibly
competitive in in, in its

879
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,320
structure.
So do you imagine, you know,

880
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,280
Berry Gordy used to have these
weekly quality control meetings

881
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,920
when people would vote on
records that that were in

882
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,720
production or that songwriters
and producers were making.

883
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,680
So it was incredibly
competitive, which of course

884
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:55,400
elevates the the work because
people wanted want to be the

885
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,680
winner, they want to win.
So they work harder at it.

886
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,400
And he had that because it was
very much, you know,

887
00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:06,840
self-sufficient.
I mean, it was if it was

888
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,840
considered a family atmosphere.
So people all work together, but

889
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,000
they were also encouraged to be
competitive.

890
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,520
So the quality of the work was,
was extraordinary and was also

891
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,280
self-contained.
And one of the important points

892
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,600
about this was Detroit was
really not considered key part

893
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:27,240
of the music business at that
stage in in the early 60s.

894
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,120
OK, being a great jazz city,
which of course is why the Funk

895
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,120
Brothers was, was so
extraordinary.

896
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:36,080
You know, it comes, it comes
with everything in jazz in

897
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,400
Detroit, but as part of the
music business, it really

898
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,200
wasn't.
It wasn't as important to

899
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:46,800
Chicago, New York or even LA.
So they were able to do what

900
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:48,680
they did.
And this was an important point.

901
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,120
Motown was able to do what it
did without too much messing

902
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,040
from the outside world.
They were self-contained.

903
00:51:55,200 --> 00:52:00,320
They could develop, improve,
challenge, innovate without

904
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,880
having lots of other stuff going
on from other company record

905
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,800
companies in the city because
there weren't any to to for the

906
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,000
most.
You know, we had that period

907
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:15,400
where they were doing it all for
themselves and that was that

908
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:19,720
helped to that extraordinary
creativity that came out of West

909
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:22,680
Grand Blvd.
Yeah, and I, I think this

910
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:24,680
because there's two different
ways to look at this and I think

911
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:28,400
there's two potential responses.
The first one is the value of

912
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,440
being small and relatively
ignored and relatively not

913
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,840
dependent on anyone is how you
have a scrappy company like a

914
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,920
Pixar become, you know, the
company that makes a movie like

915
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,080
Toy Story.
And Disney had, you know,

916
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,320
immediately saw it like they
have something that like they

917
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,840
have this quickness and
nimbleness to them that they

918
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,680
can, you know, be much more
quick and witty, you know,

919
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:53,280
without being a behemoth, you
know, the way that we, the way

920
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:54,840
that the rest of the company
was.

921
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,800
They were dependent on other
Yes, yes, they could do.

922
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,200
A keeper break.
There was nothing there is that

923
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,200
the whole world was open to
them, right?

924
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,960
That's it's it's amazing.
And on the other hand, though,

925
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,240
with the with the sense of
competition, right, Denver, what

926
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:11,640
do you think?
You've watched the movie

927
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,280
Whiplash with JK Simmons and
Miles Teller.

928
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:17,280
No.
Oh.

929
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,200
I know of it.
I don't think I've ever seen.

930
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:24,040
It well, I recommend this.
I cannot recommend this strongly

931
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,120
enough.
The movie Whiplash is about I

932
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,920
believe is a jazz drummer and
and here's wait a.

933
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:31,840
Minute, I have seen it, of
course it is.

934
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,160
Yes, Yeah, I have seen you
mentioned the drama.

935
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,880
Feature that gets that gets this
incredible performance out of

936
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:39,640
him and like the whole movie.
Yeah.

937
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,120
And you don't know you don't
know what you think of the guy.

938
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:45,560
You don't know is this guy
reaching for absolute greatness

939
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,760
or is this guy trying to
mentally really shatter this

940
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,920
poor kid and he gets the best
performance but at the cost of

941
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,640
like, literally breaking him.
I mean it.

942
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:58,120
So so I, you know, and you read
accounts to people kind of doing

943
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,160
that to themselves and I feel
very differently.

944
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:04,120
For example, Springsteen in a
boy to run when he was laying on

945
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:08,160
jungle land took like days to
get, you know, Clarence

946
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:13,360
Clementon saxophone solo down.
Listen, if you're going to push

947
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,360
yourself because you're going to
push yourself and get want to

948
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,760
get the best record you can do,
you know, I'm all for that even,

949
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,240
you know, I mean, I think I
would tell you that I take a

950
00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:21,320
break, but you got to do got to
do.

951
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,680
But if for someone to do that to
someone else, a teacher to do

952
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:28,840
that to a student, a producer to
do that to an act you know, or a

953
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,360
music manager to do that someone
else, I think is a little bit of

954
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,440
a different story.
Yeah, I think, I think you're

955
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,400
right.
I mean, Motown was absolutely

956
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,440
that way.
It was built that way.

957
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,880
You know, they had, they had
artist development, they went to

958
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,680
lessons to be taught how to
perform on stage, right, You

959
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:49,960
know, and how to get in.
You know, the Maxine Powell,

960
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:55,920
the, the, you know, the sort of
etiquette manager, etiquette

961
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,600
manager taught the women, the
girls how to get in and out of

962
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,160
cars.
You know, when they're wearing

963
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:05,000
fortress, I mean, how to behave.
If you're going to be a star,

964
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,960
this is what you need to know
and this is what you have to

965
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,520
learn.
So all of that, in addition to

966
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:17,360
songs and music and musicians,
they, they were creating stars.

967
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:21,520
They were teaching them all the
things they needed to know to

968
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:25,560
succeed in a way that really
hadn't been done to any extent

969
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:27,440
before.
And that was, that's the other

970
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,320
thing about Motown, because it
was self-sufficient.

971
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:35,000
It basically taught them how to
how to succeed or how to behave

972
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,440
or how to be stars.
Yeah, yeah.

973
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,560
So the.
RCA Records didn't do that.

974
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,120
Columbia Records didn't do that,
you know.

975
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,720
But they had to answer to what
the quarter quarterly earnings

976
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:49,000
would be or how many, how many
records they saw that month.

977
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,040
And I don't know if there if
Motown was under the same type

978
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:52,800
of scrutiny at that point.
It wasn't.

979
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:54,320
It simply wasn't.
Yeah.

980
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:59,000
Yeah, I've also read accounts of
the CIA, which is the famous

981
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,520
Creative Artists Agency, and
that company got started too

982
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:05,000
with Michael Ovitz.
And I mean, they're essentially

983
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:09,160
their thing was like, you know,
they started off in the mail

984
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,280
rooms and they started off in
this big industry.

985
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,160
And then they, and then they
basically said, we know, like

986
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,440
we, we, we let's all start our
own, you know, our own show, you

987
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:19,880
know, we'll do our own thing on
the side.

988
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,920
But we have from, we're going to
every single aspect of our life

989
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,880
is going to be uniform and
professional.

990
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,160
So are our cars going to be the
exact same cars whether you can

991
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:30,400
afford them or not?
They're going to have the same

992
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:32,040
license plate whether you can
afford them or not.

993
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:34,200
You always pay for your clients,
whether you can afford it or

994
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,160
not.
And like, like there's certain

995
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,080
like stand and like, and then
they, and then they created that

996
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,320
tone.
And then they would just train

997
00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:43,480
agents like that until they
became this enormous machine

998
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,240
that they are today.
But now they can't do the exact

999
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:49,800
same thing they used to do.
So it's almost better to, to

1000
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,240
retire.
You know, I think I would rather

1001
00:56:52,240 --> 00:56:57,720
retire at my creative peak than
to, than to judge.

1002
00:56:57,720 --> 00:56:59,560
You know, it's the famous Marvel
line.

1003
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:02,760
You live long.
You, you, you die here.

1004
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:04,120
You live long enough to become
the villain.

1005
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:10,240
Yeah, Yeah, it's, yes, that's
pretty interesting.

1006
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:16,000
It, it's also, I think to some
extent part of American culture,

1007
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,800
you know, because it, because
America is a young country and

1008
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:24,720
people want to get ahead,
whatever it takes to get ahead.

1009
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:31,800
There's not as much ambition is
perhaps too limited a word, but

1010
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,680
but it's, there's a different
attitude to that in Europe.

1011
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,520
And that's the generalisation,
of course.

1012
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:38,560
Yeah.
But you know, what you're

1013
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:43,560
talking about is in part a
reflection of the relative youth

1014
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,800
of of America and how people
want to succeed, they want to

1015
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:48,520
get ahead, they want to define
things.

1016
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,240
They want to, you know, discover
it all for themselves.

1017
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,600
It's what's given.
It's, you know, economy and and

1018
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:58,000
and and everything extraordinary
power.

1019
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,080
But but it is in some ways quite
different to other parts of the

1020
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:02,640
world.
It's very different.

1021
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,920
I feel very frequently like
we're, we're toddlers that just

1022
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,360
learned how to run and we're
just like zipping around and

1023
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,440
people trying to keep us out of
the street and, you know, like

1024
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,400
that's all we're trying to do
but it.

1025
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,920
Should be very exciting.
It is, it really is.

1026
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:22,800
And, you know, and, and with
listen, freedom, freedom in

1027
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:24,920
general, you know, whether
you're talking about a national

1028
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,800
level or a personal level is a
pays a very, very heavy price.

1029
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,880
And the toll is not something
that I think most people, if you

1030
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:35,120
actually, if they knew what it
cost, would not necessarily

1031
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:36,280
want.
Yeah.

1032
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,000
Can I, can I ask you about
because you had some really

1033
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,720
wonderful opportunities to
interview some, some of your

1034
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:46,000
heroes or some of these musical
heroes rather I would call them.

1035
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:50,120
And what was that?
What was that like?

1036
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:53,880
What was it like to feel like?
Was that enormously validating?

1037
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,400
Did it make you feel like your
career was somewhere to able to?

1038
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,440
You know, I mean, I just saw the
list of people that you

1039
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,920
interviewed on your website and
I mean Lionel Richie and Smokey

1040
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:05,360
Robinson and Curtis Mayfield and
Marvin Gaye.

1041
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,520
I mean, like these are names
that are historical, you know,

1042
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:13,880
that are, that are greatest of,
you know, musical influences

1043
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:17,240
some of all time.
Yes, and, and, and it was

1044
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,160
extraordinary to have that
opportunity.

1045
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:24,240
Having said that, I got more of
a kick out of talking to the

1046
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,840
backroom believers.
Yeah, because the artists, for

1047
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,200
the most, most part, tell you
the same stories.

1048
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:33,800
And, and that's in the nature of
stardom.

1049
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,680
You know, they're doing 6
interviews today and they'll

1050
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:40,040
have 50 this week.
They for the most part, they say

1051
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:42,440
the same things.
You, you and I would do it if

1052
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:46,840
just to keep some sort of mental
stability because you're often

1053
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,320
asked the same questions, so you
come up with the same answers.

1054
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:51,400
Smokey Robinson's a perfect
example of that.

1055
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,400
He tells the same 6 friggin
stories you can imagine.

1056
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,960
I know them all.
I heard them 20 years ago.

1057
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,840
Come on, I know you know more.
And that was the thing that I

1058
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:04,440
used to find the the advantage
of talking to the backroom

1059
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:08,000
people, the songwriters, the
producers, the label people, is

1060
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,600
they haven't.
Told the the those stories to

1061
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,920
within an inch of their life.
They sometimes they haven't told

1062
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,800
the stories at all.
So you're learning stuff by

1063
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,120
talking to those people.
And that's what as I got into

1064
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:23,560
the business, particularly
working for something like

1065
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,320
Billboard when you have access
to the backroom people.

1066
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,520
Yes.
That's what made it in a way

1067
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:34,000
more exciting because, and you
know, and then this is not to

1068
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:38,440
diminish what, what artists have
to say, but they say it a lot

1069
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:40,560
and you can read it.
They're all over the place.

1070
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,560
But what I found when I moved to
New York, particularly because I

1071
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:51,880
had for the best part of 15
years studied the back of the

1072
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:56,880
backroom of the business,
Americans who were in those jobs

1073
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,640
when I came to interview them
for Billboard, were often

1074
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,520
surprised that I knew as much
about them as I did.

1075
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:08,040
And it, it makes for a very
productive and pleasant setting.

1076
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:10,920
It's like they're flattered
because you firstly, you, you

1077
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,560
know, you know things about
whoa, somebody cares.

1078
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,600
And then they like having the
opportunity to talk about this

1079
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,120
stuff because generally they're
not asked about it.

1080
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:26,080
So I, I, you know, I would get
more of a, I was going to say

1081
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,680
with Curtis Mayfield, actually,
I mean, Curtis is a God, but I

1082
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:35,040
used to get as much of A kick
out of talking to the guy who

1083
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:39,040
ran his record company as, as
talking to Curtis.

1084
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:44,120
And, and that's what also what I
found in doing the Motown book

1085
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:46,160
Ephraim.
And then earlier I did a book

1086
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:51,840
called the Billboard Book of #1
Rhythm and Blokes Hits and and I

1087
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:55,800
tried first and foremost to talk
to the songwriters and producers

1088
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:58,320
and musicians as much as the
stars.

1089
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,920
And you learn so much more.
You're ready to and they,

1090
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,240
they're much more amenable to
speaking, right, especially in

1091
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,040
more long form.
Yes, Yeah, yeah.

1092
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:11,280
And then, you know, and, and
then they answer questions

1093
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:12,840
they've not never been asked
before.

1094
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,960
So it's like, oh, nobody's ever
asked me that.

1095
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:20,200
And and you get really get fresh
insights into the way they think

1096
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:25,320
and create and behave.
And for, you know, for, for

1097
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,880
someone who's a journalist,
that's, that's the name of the

1098
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:28,760
game.
You.

1099
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,480
You want something different,
You want something original, You

1100
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,800
want something fresh.
Yeah, yeah, I've found for

1101
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:36,960
example in that podcast.
I feel very similar way, by the

1102
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:42,640
way, because you know, I, I,
I'll find, for example, NO1IN, I

1103
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:44,280
love Hollywood.
I've always been fascinated by

1104
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:46,600
Hollywood.
You know, obviously Ben

1105
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:50,960
Affleck's not getting back to me
quite yet, you know, but you

1106
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:54,080
know, the stunt, you know, but
the stunt double, you know, for

1107
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:56,080
X amount of movies is going to
get back to me.

1108
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:59,280
The music supervisor, the person
that coordinates the music and

1109
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:03,160
in over, you know, 200 Netflix
films is happy to talk about his

1110
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:07,400
experience doing this, this job
that you said you don't even

1111
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:11,400
think the value exists until you
think about it, you know, and

1112
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:12,640
like, you're like, wait a
minute.

1113
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,840
Who does pick the music for the
back, you know, for the movies?

1114
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,240
How who decides how that works?
What about what's the difference

1115
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:20,160
between a score and a
soundtrack?

1116
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:22,840
How does a movie movie studio
decide whether what they're

1117
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,440
going to do about that?
Or if you get a Led Zeppelin

1118
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:27,000
song in a movie, how much does
that cost?

1119
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:28,480
Right.
Yeah.

1120
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:30,200
What's the process of doing
that?

1121
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:32,880
Yeah.
Or did left or did Led Zeppelin

1122
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,840
refuse to let that song be used
in that particular movie?

1123
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:37,280
Yeah.
Exactly because they don't like

1124
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:38,320
the scene that he was in.
Bother.

1125
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:40,560
A lot of times the last to see
the movie scene beforehand.

1126
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:42,840
I read the script before I like,
listen, you're going to tell me

1127
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:44,160
I got to find out what this is
about.

1128
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:45,840
So interesting.
Yeah.

1129
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:47,360
So yeah, we share that
perspective.

1130
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:49,840
Yeah, yeah.
And I've and, and that's the way

1131
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:54,080
that I learned about really all
anything that anything that I

1132
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:56,320
love doing deep dives into you
find.

1133
01:03:56,520 --> 01:04:00,400
It's been so useful to find
everyone on the peripheral

1134
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,840
because behind like you say,
like behind every all these

1135
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:07,040
gods, all these forces, you
know, with a small G and all

1136
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:11,120
these forces, they've only got X
amount of time of the day.

1137
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:13,960
They're only dealing, you know,
they have a million things on

1138
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,440
their mind.
And I, I would never even

1139
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,200
imagine being in that.
I can never even imagine being

1140
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:23,000
in that position, you know?
But yeah.

1141
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:24,640
And that's why I've been having
fun.

1142
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:27,080
I've been the hardest part of
the podcast for me, actually has

1143
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:30,040
been thinking of enough fun,
creative, out-of-the-box people

1144
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:34,280
that are peripherally aligned
that I can get a lot of detail

1145
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:35,960
out of.
Yeah, good stuff out of it.

1146
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:43,800
Yeah, my 2 two of my favorite
Motown stories came from, you

1147
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:47,600
know, backroom people.
In fact, you know, for me,

1148
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:50,880
obviously the guy called by the
name Barney Eilis, who I wrote

1149
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:54,480
the Motown book with, he was,
you know, he joined Motown in

1150
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:58,800
1961 as a salesman and he ended
up running the company in in in

1151
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:04,400
the 70s.
But because again, nobody really

1152
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:07,360
knew who he was and nobody
talked to him, but I knew who he

1153
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:09,960
was and I knew what he knew and
what he'd done.

1154
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:13,440
So when I had the opportunity to
ask him all sorts of questions,

1155
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:16,440
it was wonderful.
And two of my favourites which I

1156
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:25,000
was thinking about earlier today
is 1, where in 1962, The

1157
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,520
Marvelettes, the original group
that recorded these, Mr.

1158
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:33,080
Postman, were booked into a big
gig in San Francisco in Cow

1159
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:37,800
Palace.
And another Motown artist was

1160
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,440
also booked like Guy by the name
of Eddie Holland, who

1161
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,840
subsequently became part of the
songwriting team Holland Oja

1162
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:45,600
Holland.
But they were booked to this

1163
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:50,400
show, Cow Palace, the Marvell X
and Eddie Holland.

1164
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:56,360
And Barney said, OK, So what we
did was we we booked the flights

1165
01:05:56,360 --> 01:06:02,640
for Gladys Horton, who was the
lead singer of The Marvelettes

1166
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:09,400
and for Eddie.
And we hired 4 local Bay Area

1167
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:13,120
girls to sing behind Gladys
because we couldn't afford to

1168
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:16,000
send the whole group from
Detroit to San Francisco.

1169
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:18,560
No way.
You know you'll love that sort

1170
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,640
of stuff, really.
No way.

1171
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:24,600
These are the size of the
audiences in case they don't get

1172
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:25,800
it.
Right.

1173
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:31,480
And the other one I like was
went before The Supremes broke

1174
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:35,000
through.
And again, it involved Barney.

1175
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,120
They were a whole bunch of
people.

1176
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:40,040
Motown people were at the
wedding of one of the marvelets

1177
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,240
and one of the miracles.
And Barney told me the story

1178
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:46,360
about how they were all in this
Chinese restaurant in downtown

1179
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:54,880
Detroit and Diana Ross was in
the in the booth next to him.

1180
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:58,320
So Barney was there with with
some people and Diana and her

1181
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:01,480
then boyfriend, the guy who was
the boat and engineer was in the

1182
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:05,280
booth next to him.
And Barney spilled something

1183
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:08,440
drink on his tie.
And Diana saw that and said, oh,

1184
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:11,400
let me get something for you.
I can fix that because she'd

1185
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:15,480
previously, you know, worked in
a, in, in a place that you had

1186
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:21,800
them clean clothes.
And so Diana was there helping

1187
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:25,000
him clean the tie.
And while she was doing that,

1188
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:29,360
she said to Barney, Barney, do
you think we'll ever be as big

1189
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:33,240
as The Marvelettes?
You know, and, and, and it's

1190
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:34,880
just stuff like that you can't
make up.

1191
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:38,160
It's wonderful to hear those
stories, you know, and that's

1192
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:42,160
the opportunity that you get
when you talk to the backroom

1193
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:45,760
people, the stuff that hasn't
been told and, and it's always

1194
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:49,440
illuminating, sometimes in a way
you don't expect, sometimes not

1195
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:52,760
in a good way, but it's fret,
it's different, it's new, it's

1196
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:55,880
revealing.
And you know, we always want to

1197
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,320
know more, right?
Yeah, definitely.

1198
01:07:58,520 --> 01:07:59,800
So tell me about this book that
you wrote.

1199
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,960
So now we can, we can finally
get to your book about because

1200
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:08,200
what's, what's cool is it's a
it's a visual book it and I

1201
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:10,920
actually think that, and I was,
I was thinking about it as I

1202
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:13,680
was, I was, you know, looking at
it and reading about it.

1203
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:18,479
I feel like if there's, if
there's an industry in which a

1204
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:22,560
book could be, you know, told
the story could be told and

1205
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,160
narrated without words
primarily, you know, with

1206
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:30,160
pictures and editorials.
This is a great industry to be

1207
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:32,319
able to do it, but it feels like
an alternative form of

1208
01:08:32,319 --> 01:08:34,279
storytelling for sure, right?
Yep, and.

1209
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:36,279
Can you tell you what the
process was like?

1210
01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:43,600
How to happen?
Well, it's funny it happened

1211
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:49,439
because in 90 on November the
13th 1966 I went from my

1212
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:53,840
hometown of Bristol to London to
see the first time The Four Tops

1213
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:57,120
performed in in London.
They performed at a theatre in

1214
01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:59,279
in the West End called the Sable
Theatre.

1215
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,560
How long is that train from
Bristol to how long is the trip?

1216
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:04,960
From oh it's 120 miles.
It's a 3 hour drive.

1217
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:08,800
I got my my best friend to drive
me because I didn't drive.

1218
01:09:09,319 --> 01:09:12,200
OK, gotcha.
Down to London to go see the

1219
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:14,800
show.
I had a front row ticket.

1220
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:19,240
I The Four Tops were my gods.
I knew every song that they'd

1221
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:22,279
ever recorded at that point and
I couldn't believe I was going

1222
01:09:22,279 --> 01:09:27,040
to see them live.
So it was just a stunning show

1223
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:31,600
and the following year I thought
I had to go back and see another

1224
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,800
Motown act of the Saddle.
So I went to see Glads the Night

1225
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:38,000
and the Pips.
Same theatre but top of the

1226
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:40,160
bell.
At that point were was a guy

1227
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:45,640
called Joe Tex who was pretty
cool R&B stylist at the time but

1228
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:49,279
not very popular in the UK and I
knew his records and liked them

1229
01:09:49,279 --> 01:09:54,279
but I didn't want to see him.
I, you know, seen Gladys who

1230
01:09:54,279 --> 01:09:56,400
had, I wanted to see in the 1st
place.

1231
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:59,640
So I left the theatre, went down
the road to a pub on Charlesbury

1232
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:04,240
Ave. went into the into the pub
and there I saw the guy I

1233
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:08,000
recognise being Barney Ellis,
who was then the head of sales

1234
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,520
for Motown.
And the only reason I recognised

1235
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:13,880
him is because I got my aunt in
America to send me copies of the

1236
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,880
trade papers from time to time.
So cashbox and Billboard and I,

1237
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:21,280
so I knew who this dude was.
I knew he was the head of sales

1238
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:25,400
for Motown and I introduced
obviously and I was a 17 year

1239
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:28,280
old, I had the hotspot to
introduce myself to him, but he

1240
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:31,520
was blattered that somebody from
London would recognise him.

1241
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:34,880
So that was a really good start
to it.

1242
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:37,760
And then several years later
when I joined Music Week, which

1243
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:41,120
was the trade paper in the UK at
the time, it still is.

1244
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:47,360
And he came over to London to
he, he'd left Motown for the

1245
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:49,000
first time and set up his own
label.

1246
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,800
I got to talk to him again.
And that was when we we really

1247
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:55,840
made a connection and became
friends.

1248
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:57,960
And then when I moved to the
States, I kept in touch with

1249
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:01,640
him.
So about which is now 15 years

1250
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:05,800
ago, bit more than 15 years ago.
You know, I'd always said,

1251
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:07,200
Barney, I want to write a book
with you.

1252
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:09,040
You know you were on the inside
of Motown.

1253
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:10,760
You know everything.
Yeah.

1254
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:16,440
And his son called me one day in
about 2011 and said, you know,

1255
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:19,800
Adam, if you still want to write
that book, you need to do it

1256
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:23,800
sooner rather than later.
And at that point I realised he

1257
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:28,240
was right.
So I just got down to it and I

1258
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:33,040
went out and interviewed Barney.
We started the whole process.

1259
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:36,520
It took about 18 months.
And I used to, when I was in

1260
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:39,480
London, I used to say I went to
Detroit every weekend because he

1261
01:11:39,480 --> 01:11:43,360
and I would do.
And that a, you know, a call.

1262
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:48,880
What was that?
There was that technology, phone

1263
01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:53,280
technologies.
No, before that, can't think

1264
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,880
what it was.
You know, we could just talk

1265
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:59,360
online face to face.
Video call.

1266
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:02,080
No, it shut down.
Yeah, it was a video call, but

1267
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:04,200
it was a specific service.
Can't think of the name of it

1268
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:07,040
anyway, but I went to the toy
that.

1269
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:10,520
Weekend.
Because I would sit and ask

1270
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:13,760
every question I'd ever wanted
to ask about this guy whom your

1271
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:16,320
Motown inside out.
And it was fantastic.

1272
01:12:16,320 --> 01:12:19,200
It was really the most
extraordinary opportunity to do

1273
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:22,480
it.
And, and what was also important

1274
01:12:22,480 --> 01:12:25,880
in the making of the book is
because his stories hadn't been

1275
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:31,240
told before, whereas much of the
Motown story had the combination

1276
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:37,280
of those, those photographs, the
visuals and the back story with

1277
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:41,120
something different than another
book about Diana Ross.

1278
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:44,920
And, you know, Stevie Wonder
and, and, and all of the, you

1279
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:46,520
know, the glamour and the
stardom.

1280
01:12:46,720 --> 01:12:50,040
It's like how this all came to
be because Barney knew how it

1281
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:53,240
all came to be.
So it was a, it was, you know,

1282
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:57,800
good luck and that good fortune
from seeing him in a in a pub in

1283
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,080
central London in 1967.
Yeah, yeah.

1284
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:03,280
And it shows how many shows how
you kind of have to take these,

1285
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:05,120
you know, well, A, you have to
take advantage of these

1286
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:08,000
opportunities, but B, the fact
that you're even passionate

1287
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:10,640
enough at 17 to be getting trade
papers from your aunt in the

1288
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:14,120
States, you know, but that's a
good thing.

1289
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:15,440
I think it's a really good
thing.

1290
01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:19,840
I I have a student that the
other day he's I I, my first

1291
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:23,280
high school freshman class is
graduating.

1292
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:24,680
I'd started teaching four years
ago.

1293
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:25,760
Oh, right.
Wow for.

1294
01:13:26,480 --> 01:13:29,840
My students that were freshman
and now seniors, and I'm talking

1295
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:31,920
to one of them who's been in my
class for probably three of the

1296
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:34,280
four years of his high school
career.

1297
01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:36,600
He said.
And and I hear him talking to

1298
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:38,240
his friend about who's going to
be an accountant.

1299
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:41,560
I was like, dude, you're 17, you
want to be an accountant?

1300
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:42,560
I said, you want to be an
accountant.

1301
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:44,520
He's like, yeah.
I was like, why?

1302
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:45,680
He's like, because my sister
works in IT.

1303
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:50,400
She hooked me over the job.
I'm like, you have to try like 3

1304
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:53,080
jobs before you decide that you
want to be an accountant because

1305
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:55,920
you're 17 and like, you can do
an internship this summer and

1306
01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:59,760
anything that you want and you
can do and you could try it now.

1307
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:02,640
Try like, you know, think about
things that you that you love

1308
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:07,040
and and the earlier that you
start, the more time you have to

1309
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:11,280
get lucky, the earlier.
That you start, Yes, you're

1310
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:12,440
absolutely right.
Yeah.

1311
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:15,640
And that's, and what's happened
to me is a perfect example of

1312
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:17,560
that.
You know, the earlier you start,

1313
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:21,280
the opportunities are there if
you, you know, if you have the

1314
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:23,440
the appetite and the passion to
do it.

1315
01:14:23,440 --> 01:14:26,520
And it's extraordinary.
I mean, I look back on my career

1316
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:29,840
and I still really can't believe
it the way it would, you know,

1317
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:33,120
yes, it's been amazing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1318
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:38,560
Well, it's it's it's a heck of a
ride and I hope that you get a

1319
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:40,560
lot, you get a lot of pride from
the great work that you've done.

1320
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:42,800
I.
Appreciate it for him.

1321
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:47,240
It's it's just having that
opportunity and it's, you know,

1322
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:51,480
to just to hear, talk to and
understand these remarkable

1323
01:14:51,480 --> 01:14:55,000
people both in, you know, front
of house and back of house, if

1324
01:14:55,000 --> 01:15:00,480
you like, you know, Marvin, you
know, I mean, just interviewing

1325
01:15:00,480 --> 01:15:03,840
Marvin.
I got to interview Michael

1326
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:07,920
Jackson before, before Thriller,
before it really blew up.

1327
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:11,400
So those opportunities.
Do you have a question of him?

1328
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:12,800
When you when you when you
interviewed him.

1329
01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:15,280
God, he was as shy as you could
possibly imagine.

1330
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:17,560
It was a dreadful interview
because he didn't really want to

1331
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:18,680
do it.
He didn't want to.

1332
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:19,080
Yeah.
Umm.

1333
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:22,120
But you know what?
I.

1334
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:24,880
Think of him.
I don't know what I think of the

1335
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:26,280
allegations.
I don't know what I think of the

1336
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:27,640
legacy.
I don't know what I think of

1337
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:29,440
separating the music from the
artist.

1338
01:15:29,440 --> 01:15:32,360
Or, you know, I don't, I don't
know what what to think about a

1339
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:34,160
lot of this stuff.
Umm.

1340
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:37,680
But I'm conflicted enough that
it unsettles me enough to not,

1341
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:43,120
you know, get too into the the
particular song.

1342
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,120
But I don't know, I have a hard
time with that.

1343
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:51,440
I just play a record and it all
falls away.

1344
01:15:51,440 --> 01:15:54,560
It's just amusing.
Because I think I'm very, like I

1345
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:56,160
said earlier, it's very
intentional to me.

1346
01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:58,600
It's very personal, you know, So
for example, if I hear

1347
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:01,480
Springsteen, you know, I mean,
it's actually a great example

1348
01:16:01,480 --> 01:16:03,720
now, you know, you hear him sing
a song about what it's like

1349
01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:06,480
working factory and then you
know that he's got a billion

1350
01:16:06,480 --> 01:16:09,760
dollars.
I don't know if you're quite,

1351
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:11,720
quite something the same thing
over here.

1352
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,920
But that's actually, it's funny
because I, I, I, I was a huge

1353
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:17,760
fan.
I discovered Springsteen and I

1354
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:22,720
think 2018 or 19 and then 2023,
I think I got my first chance to

1355
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:25,760
see him live and I've listened
to hundreds of hours of his

1356
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:28,760
concerts until then.
And I went to hear him and I'm

1357
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:31,920
like, I'm chasing, I've been
chasing some.

1358
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:35,280
I'm chasing a ghost because the
Springsteen that wrote Thunder

1359
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:39,800
Rd. as a 17 year old poor kid
whose parents just moved away,

1360
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:44,360
you know, is a very different
Springsteen performance than 70

1361
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:46,960
year, you know, 72 year old guy.
That's yeah.

1362
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:50,600
And and so I realized that I was
chasing more of a ghost of a

1363
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:54,360
point in time rather than rather
than an artist.

1364
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:57,360
I imagine it's.
So that was a shocking for free

1365
01:16:57,360 --> 01:17:00,920
too.
And, and that's the virtue of

1366
01:17:00,920 --> 01:17:04,920
recorded music is you, if you
want to, you can just hear that

1367
01:17:04,920 --> 01:17:07,360
music.
And, and that's all that

1368
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:10,720
matters.
If it has the power, if you are

1369
01:17:10,720 --> 01:17:15,000
drawn to it, everything else
falls away from the power of of

1370
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:17,960
the piece of music.
Whether it's going to run or or

1371
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:20,240
heard it through the Grapevine
or reach out, I'll be there or

1372
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:24,200
whatever it it has that ability
to render everything else

1373
01:17:24,480 --> 01:17:28,800
irrelevant in that moment.
Before we go, before we come in,

1374
01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:30,840
before we wrap up for today,
This has been so much fun.

1375
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:33,120
Thank you so much for your time
and stories.

1376
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:38,120
I would love 5 recommendations
that you think that people

1377
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:42,920
should listen to from the Motown
R&B genre off the top of your

1378
01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:45,360
head that you think that people
need to know or that people

1379
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:47,000
should know.
Right.

1380
01:17:48,440 --> 01:17:52,520
Always a tough question.
Well, The Four Tops, of course,

1381
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:57,720
because they changed my life.
And Ask the Lonely is is an

1382
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:01,560
incredibly powerful ballad of
theirs which is not particularly

1383
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,720
well known, but captures the
essence of the melancholy of The

1384
01:18:05,720 --> 01:18:06,480
Four Tops.
So.

1385
01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:08,800
The Four Tops?
Ask the lonely.

1386
01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:13,120
Yep.
OK, David Ruffin, walk away from

1387
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:17,520
love.
OK, again, a 70s thing.

1388
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:22,280
But the voice, just that voice,
is just beyond measure.

1389
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:25,280
OK, that's 2.
David Ruffin, fall away from

1390
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:31,000
love.
I think Brenda Holloway, Every

1391
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:36,000
Little Bit Hurts is one of those
because it's almost isn't a

1392
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:42,120
Motown record, but it is
wonderfully engaging and and and

1393
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:45,800
and different.
OK, Brenda Holloway, every

1394
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:48,040
little bit hurts.
Yeah, let's see.

1395
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:53,240
Well, Marvin and, and that's the
challenge in a way.

1396
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:56,640
Look at well, because there are
two Marvin's, OK.

1397
01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:02,400
And and I had a hard time
adjusting to the the second

1398
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:05,680
Marvin because I've been so
devoted to the first.

1399
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:13,480
But from the first Marvin ain't
that Peculiar is is again the

1400
01:19:13,480 --> 01:19:17,920
quintessential Motown record of
the mid 60s written by Smokey

1401
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:18,880
Robinson.
So.

1402
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:22,400
OK, Ain't That Peculiar By
Marvin.

1403
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:26,080
Written by Smokey Robinson.
Yeah, and the last one number.

1404
01:19:26,160 --> 01:19:31,120
Five, you know, I'd go back,
although it's it's very obscure

1405
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:36,400
and and it ought to be findable
online, but I would go back to

1406
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:39,000
that song of Smokey.
Your mother called on me today

1407
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:44,640
and and it's important that the
recording of it is won by a

1408
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:49,360
woman called Francis Burnett.
OK, perfect.

1409
01:19:49,480 --> 01:19:53,120
Because the second version which
was added and Francis Burnett

1410
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:58,080
wasn't a Motown, but it was.
It was a song that Smokey wrote

1411
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:01,840
before really there was Motown.
There's a second version which

1412
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:05,760
is not quite as good, but just
as an example of the calibre of

1413
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:07,800
his songwriting when he was
young.

1414
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:10,640
OK, just keep.
It for the music, keep an eye

1415
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:15,000
out for the lyrics, keep an eye
out for the production and and

1416
01:20:15,000 --> 01:20:18,760
see what the magic of this
Motown foundation is.

1417
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:20,920
Yep.
Well, very exciting.

1418
01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:23,360
Mr. White, thank you so much.
This is so much fun.

1419
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:24,840
Real pleasure, thank you for
having me.

1420
01:20:25,160 --> 01:20:26,600
Have a great day, take Care now.
You too.

1421
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:27,040
So long.