Music Series 6: Adam White / MoTown Roots / Rhythm and Blues / Backdoor Talent

0:01 Welcome to another episode of Come Together and We're Live Adam White. Mr. White, how are you? I'm so happy to have you join me today. Light was good to be here for him. Thank you, I'm good, I'm good. It's an early evening in London. Looking forward to dinner shortly. There you go. Wonderful is is the is it as common in London to have a pint of Guinness as it is in Ireland as on like a frequent basis just to catch up with someone on the street or something like that? It's probably more common in Ireland. I mean, it certainly happens here. That's it.

0:48 Of course, I don't drink Guinness, so how would I know? Well, there you go. OK, you don't drink at all. You just don't drink Guinness. No, no, I just, I don't like you don't never enjoyed beer. You know, I see wine and spirits. Wine and spirits. OK, well then what works works is what I think I I've been to Dublin a couple of times and I've I started off had a friend of mine that plays music in Orlando and Irish guy Shane Farrell and I hope to actually recorded him soon too. He's a fascinating, fascinating fungi and you know, and, and, and he, I used to, when I was single, I used to go to Orlando for business quite a bit. And I'll get a hotel, especially during COVID, it was quiet and it was cheap.

1:32 And I'll go to and I'll go hear some live music at Raglan Rd. where, you know, I could, I could count, I could count all the time. I just great music being there and I would be there. I was, I was single and I and everything was locked down around me and I was, you know, and I was dying for some, you know, relationships and some really, you know, some life and, and I'll go and then I'll get exposed to all these great Irish tunes and all these, you know, folk songs and, and that started me down a whole fun path and it was really, really cool. Yeah, Dublin is a great city, It really is. Yeah, wonderful. So I'm reached. I reached out to you because I have a music series and I love to learn the background of music and learn go in depth as to, you know, not just experience great music and not just hear it, but also I think that once you get to know it on a more personal level, get to know it a little deeper and it cut was our appreciation for it and it helps develop a real relationship. Ted and and also I think that we find that I I when I think of music and I, I tried teaching this to my students a little bit, my high school students who are very reluctant to listen to my old music and I I say it's like meeting, listening to new, new music is like meeting someone for the first time. You know, you have an initial judgment based on like what your initial, you know, what the first thing you see is and like you're processing something new.

2:52 And then as it becomes a little bit more familiar, then you could start noticing a little bit more detail to that person. Oh, you know, I, you know, he likes, he laughs the same jokes with me. You know, we both like the same football team. You know, we both, you know, whatever it might be about drink Guinness, you know, and, and, and then as you, and then you get to know someone and then you really build a relationship with them. And then you can have really wonderful things happen, obviously in relationships. And I think that happens with music too. So the more we get to, the more we're exposed to it, the more we could recognize the depth to it. And then I think that learning about the music and the genre and the history also helps in that way. Yes, I mean, I think, you know, most people just enjoy music for what it is. I, I think I've come to believe, whereas, you know, whatever the percentage is, maybe 20% of music lovers want to go deeper, want to know more, want to know everything if they possibly can, because they're so moved by the music that they need to know how it came to be.

3:49 Whereas most people, I think are quite happy just to hear it and enjoy it. It doesn't invalidate their enjoyment, but they treat it in a different way. And so I, I agree with you. It is, it is fascinating to dig deeper. That's really what happened to me when I first, you know, got into music was you you start, you appreciate it. And then you want to know much more. You've got to know more. It, you know, who are these people? What how did they do this, all of that? Yeah, I, I recognize that, that very much. Yeah, yeah. And it, and you know, for a long time I was, I was specifically, I appreciated the lyrics for music. I'd listen to music for lyrics.

4:30 So I'd find the best poets that I could find, the Van Morrison's and the Bob Dylan's. And, you know, and even, and even as I ventured off towards like the more musically inclined music, so the jam music or the Blues or whatever, you know, even then I would still kind of keep an eye out for the ones that had deeper lyrics that I could speak a little bit more closely to. But then I started understanding music. And once I started playing guitar a little bit, I started appreciating the music as the music and as the language in and of itself. And I wasn't counting on just the lyrics to, to speak to me, but I'm counting on the, on the musician to speak to me. And, and, and that's, and that, that was a real transformation.

5:11 And, and you know, and it's funny because I have a hard time receiving recommendations from people. So I was like, you should listen to that. Like, you don't even know what I like, man. I'm not going to try this out. But as I as I learned to appreciate music as the music, I found myself much more willing to kind of open up to it. Yeah, yeah, I can understand that. Certainly playing music, you know, is very different. You know, it takes, it takes you to a different place and and you appreciate things that previously you had no idea about. So yes, I completely agree with you. Of course, there are those who might, might not accept that drummers can be musicians, which was what I was.

5:54 But I want to talk to you about that. I think that aside for the moment. Well, the drumming or that conversation. Well, how long did you play drums for? Probably about four years or so, I was in a band. It was in my hometown of Bristol, in the West Country of England. And I always had a sense of rhythm. And, you know, I was always tapping on the table when I heard music. And then I figured I'd be quite interested in seeing, you know, seeing what it's like to learn to be a drummer, which is what I did. And then we joined a band that was resident in a club in Bristol.

6:36 It was, you know, we played R&B, the three Jamaican guys and us and two white guys, me and the keyboard player. And the club there called the Bamboo Club was, you know, very hip in, in a part of of Bristol. And you know, we played R&B and jazz for the most part. That's so cool. And it, you know, it was, it was wonderful. And then then we got offered a tour of Italy and I really didn't want to go tour Italy, so I left. Really. Yeah. You passed up a touring gig? No, no way. Interesting. Well, can I ask? I mean, so you took you did it for about a couple of years.

7:19 What? Why would people you think musically kind of give drummers a harder time about the fact about not being clinical musicians? Just, you know, for people to that that don't that aren't musically inclined understand. That's a good question. I think, I think it's in the, you know, in the rhythmic nature of drumming as opposed to music and notes and harmonies and, and melodies. And I think that's, that's got a lot to do with, you know, and drummers are always sort of made fun of and not least of all because, you know, they're usually the last to leave the stage because they got to dismantle the kit and take it out to the van and all of that stuff. It's become stereotypical in a way. But you know, you if you have a sense of rhythm, so much music is is predicated on on rhythm.

8:11 And so you understand it in a way better, I think than than many can not musicians, but you know, civilians if you like so. And I guess you know, my my interest in my ability and rhythm also has a lot to do with why I was drawn to Motown, because arguably the finest rhythm section in in popular music for many years. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And well, yeah, let's let's talk about that because, oh, man, there's so many, there's so many fun places to go. I want to talk. Well, why don't you tell me a little bit about where, about how you got exposed to Motown, if you don't mind?

8:53 Because my understanding, at least my superficial understanding, is that England was primarily or for a long time influenced primarily by the rock and Blues scene, right? Motown was AI. Maybe You Can Tell me was a little bit more R&B and almost gospely almost, I had a bigger, much more bigger brass sound and almost a bigger. It had a bigger sound, I think than a lot of what people would associate with Blues or rock, which are typically just, you know, a three or four or five piece band and a much more stripped down sound, you know. Right, Yeah. Which were, you know, those kind of bands were very popular in clubs, you know, they were part of nightlife, etcetera, etcetera. Well, yeah, Motown was, was very different. I think what an, an important thing to realise if you're going to put it into a British context is that, you know, we did not have radio in, in Britain, commercial radio like the, the US.

9:55 There were no radio stations all over the country. We had the BBC and it had a a channel network called the Light Programme and it would play some pop music at certain times of the day. So that was the primary source. And you know, you could hear some of the hits of the day that way. But the other one, and I'm talking about the early 60s, was something called Radio Luxembourg, which was a commercial channel that was beamed out of continental Europe. And from 7:00 to midnight, they played, you know, lots of pop records basically that's what it was. And the programs were sponsored by record companies.

10:37 So there'd be an hour of of stuff from EMI and an hour of stuff from Decker and so on. But it was the only way for the every night to hear the latest hits. And so I think a lot of how why it took longer for Motown to connect in the UK is as much to do with that. And in particular, when pirate radio started in in the UK, they were playing lots of Motown and that's when it began to take hold. Up to that point, it was relatively obscure. There weren't many outlets for it. You know, music people knew that that The Beatles, among other bands, were influenced by Motown. You know, The Beatles notably because they had three Motown songs on the second album.

11:25 So that was an, you know, awareness of it. But you know, in the wider popular audience, there really wasn't much record. People didn't hear it. It was as simple as that. And you also had to remember that, that, you know, the first half of the 60's, The Beatles rolled everything and everything that came with that. The beat boom, all of the other bands, the Stones, The Who, many other more obscure ones, a lot of that was was predicated on influenced by American R&B. So and that dominated everything. So you know that that's all you would hear and that's all people wanted to hear. It was, it was exciting. It's very different to the way it had been before. So with the new generation growing up, they were very taken with that.

12:13 And so it took longer for Motown to breakthrough in the UK in part because of that. Which, uh, which Beatles songs are the are where the Motown covers that were? Maybe that's what I want, which was original. Barrett Strong. You've really got to hold on me. By the miracles. No way. And please, Mr. Poston, by the Marvelous. I love that one, by the way, Was that, umm, remember that scene in the Scorsese movie Mean Streets where De Niro gets into a fight in the pool club and he's and, and, and Mr. Postman comes on and, and honestly, I've written actually, I've read a couple of, of creative poems about that because about, you know, around college time and it's such a fun like, I think it's one of the early uses of that a director would make take music and have it be a, a polar opposite of the vibe of the actual scene that he's shooting. Right.

13:08 So the the bar fight, you don't expect to have Mr. Postman playing in the background, but it it almost, but it does actually what it what it what I think it does is it reinforces what the provide the people that provoke the fight. It helps understand their mentality. You know which it hey, this is like, you know, there's every day we're off and tumble guys. You know, you want to get in the ball for you go to fist fight, get in the fist fight. You want to crack a poke you over someone's head. You do that if you feel like it. It's the same. You know, it's business as usual and it creates a lighter environment of a of a violence that you can't really put into words, but you could direct. Yes, yes, I can see what you mean. Yeah. That's very cool. That's very cool.

13:49 So, so it took some time. Yeah. I, I, because my association actually with England and, and, and music in the 60s is, I imagine like the first that wrote the first Rolling Stones album had like I think 6 or 7 Blues covers on it. And I remember reading, like you said, that early 60s that The Beatles dominated England. I believe I read, and perhaps you could confirm or not, or you know, or contradict past this account that The Beach Boys were just as popular or potentially more popular in England than The Beatles were at that point, and they're constantly going back and forth in popularity. No, they were not on that scale.

14:33 I mean, they were popular and they had hit records, but but nothing on the scale of The Beatles. No. You know, if you think about the impact The Beatles had in America when, when they came in, in 64, you know, we had two years of that kind of total domination by The Beatles and, and, and to a lesser extent, some of the bans that came through while that was happening. But you have to realise that The Beatles were such a contrast to what had gone before, much as rock'n'roll in America in the late 50s was, you know, when Chuck Berry and, and, and everyone else Bill haded, when that all exploded, it was so very different to what had happened before in popular music.

15:14 And the The Beatles and everything that went with that in the UK, in Britain, that was the same impact. It, it closed down a generation of, you know, music makers because they weren't young and hip or they were young, but they were old school, you know, singing ballads or they were just, you know, cool guys. But a band like The Beatles, it changed everything. And, and so that really was a very powerful force in the UK from, let's say, you know, a well throughout the 60s. But it, it blew up in 62 and that sort of 62 to 65 period. There was nothing else going on but those bands that impact that, that will change.

15:54 Gotcha, Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. And then OK, so then tell me. So tell me how you got associated with Motown and how you ended up really becoming I guess a scholar and and what is OK? How about what is Motown to start for anyone that doesn't know? Gosh, I was afraid you're going to ask me that. So not what is. What is life? You know, life, Yes, I mean, it became a cultural force later in its life. But at the at the beginning it was just exciting music of the kind that hadn't certainly in this country hadn't been heard before. You know, at its base, it's, it's rhythm and soul, you know, it's, it's the finest musicians you could possibly imagine playing on records sung by artists and musicians, many of whom had a gospel background and therefore had a sound that was certainly to, to us in England, unique.

16:54 You know, we, we'd not heard anything like this before. So it in the the impact in the US and the UK are quite different because again, as partly as I was saying before, look at radio means you, you know, you heard a great deal of popular music. We didn't get to hear that in to the same extent. So something like Motown really was a bit of a revelation and it was new and different. But it's pretty hard to, you know, put in into words what it was beyond the incredible, you know, musicality of it. The singers, the band, the songwriters, all of those things coming together at that point just was, you know, was extraordinary. Yeah.

17:44 So would you call it that? Would you say that it was a particular point in time or we just say it's a genre like from, let's say a collect, a collective collection of musicians or artists from, you know, 60 to 70, sixties to the 70s? Or would you say that it continued to today? How did you? How do you feel about it? Well, the 60s were a very specific sound, which was a result of, of what Motown was, you know, record company with, with everything it needed itself to make music, you know, its own studios, own musicians, everything that was self-contained. That was a very important part of Motown. It was self-sufficient. About the only part of Motown that it didn't have itself was distribution.

18:29 So it depended on distributors in the US. To. Get the records out there. But everything else you think about it, it had in house and that was not unusual and certainly as what created the, in the beginning, the family vibe. And that's why all of those artists felt very much part of one thing. They're all collab, they're always collaborating, right? All the artists. And just to tell some artists that are associated Motown for people, for anyone that doesn't, you know, an audience that might not. Yeah, yeah, of course. Well, I mean, I think the big four really are Diana Ross, Stevie Wonder, Smokey Robinson and Marvin Gaye. Those are the Titans of Motown. Sure. No, and that that wasn't necessarily the case at the beginning. It took Stevie a while to to to get to that point, but in the 60s, those artists and others at Motown were very much part of the machine that was creating that music. When the 70s arrived, Marvin and Stevie in particular, you know, wanted their own.

19:30 They wanted control of their own music. Up to that point, most of the artists had depended on the musicians and the songwriters and the producers within Motown to make those records. Didn't write the songs, with the exception, obviously, of, of Smokey, but most of the artists who recorded were singing other people's songs. That changed in the 70s with with Marvin Gaye and with Stevie Wonder because not only did they write their own material at that point, they were changing in line with the politics and the culture and what was happening in the world in their world. And that that was a very different creature than Motown in the first it's 1st 10 years. Arguably more influential or but certainly creatively as exciting as you could imagine.

20:19 Sure. But it it's almost sort of better not to compare the 60s and the 70s because they were two very different machines. If I can use that, can use that word again for motor. But yeah, those are really the big four. And clearly there were other acts. The temptations were were huge, always bigger in America than in Britain and The Four Tops who were bigger in Britain than in America. And and you know, a fair number of other artists going to start in the pips, you know, people, others that people will know. But the big four really Diana Ross. And you could add to that The Supremes, Smokey Robinson, Miracles, Barbie Games, TV. Was there was there any kind of pushback in England or stigma because music was predominantly black and based in black culture?

21:14 Not really. No, not to the to, to the extent that it was in the States. It, it was more in, in the 60s in particular, more a degree of curiosity because, you know, most, most Britons certainly are. You know, someone like me, at that age, we hadn't been exposed to black culture. We had absolutely no idea what it was. So it was completely new. You know, not everyone wants to sign up to something new, but it was totally new. And you know, Britain was changing and you know, there were more black immigrants coming, particularly because the government, you know, subsidized and wanted a lot of people from, you know, citizen from Jamaica to come and work in the UK. They needed in the post war period needed people to do the rebuild the country if you like.

22:09 So that brought, you know, Jamaican culture into the UK, but it took a while for that to to sink in. So at the beginning really, and I'm talking about the 60s, it was a curiosity. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't the same attitude. We hadn't lived with it, which isn't to say there wasn't racism and prejudice, but it was pretty small potatoes and it was more interesting. I mean, the irony is, you know, in as no time started to break come through and one of the most popular television shows on British TV was the Black and white Minstrel Show. I mean, really, you know, you got these people dressed up and painted up as black and. Women.

22:52 Really. Yeah, I didn't know that. Huge albums, number one albums. I mean, it was extraordinary. But I also remember when interviewing Mary Wilson one time at The Supremes, she told me that when they first came to the UK, they found little or no evidence of prejudice and bigotry and racism. They, you know, it was it, it just wasn't there. And so, you know, they, they enjoyed coming here for, for that reason, much of the same way as American musicians had for decades been going to France, because France was a very hospitable country to black musicians And, and, and more so it wasn't to the same extent.

23:38 There was more curiosity about it was a novelty rather than something that had all of the other implications, political etcetera, that you had in the US at that time. Yeah, that's really what's interesting to me is because I think that a lot of the a lot of the result the the culture that existed in the 60s from my understanding. And I could I could really see this even with my own family, my grandparents and parents and aunts and uncles and that the previous two generations, especially because I I my my grandparents are very conservative Holocaust surviving, you know, Polish immigrants or German immigrants. And, you know, there's a very particular the the the conservatives, the the, the type of conservative is very, very much a don't do, don't look at anything else kind of conservative, you know, you know, very it's it's very restraining. And and I think that a lot of the great music that exploded out of that was almost out of defiance of saying, yes, don't tell me what I could look at or what I can't look at. Don't tell me what I put, whether or not and you'll listen to that push back that conflict, you know? Yeah, until when I want to extend. That was a generational thing.

24:51 Yeah, kids who were. Born in, in the post war period, such as myself, you know, we had a completely different view of the world and, and, you know, we wanted our time in it. Yeah, yeah. You know, as you say, don't tell us what to do or what to think or how to behave. We're, we're going to figure it out for ourselves. And creatively in, in Britain as in other parts of the world, it was a very exciting, innovative time. Yeah, yeah. And you know what, I actually don't think it's dissimilar from today. I, I think that there was something about, and, you know, to, and I'm not trying to say this in a particularly political way or not, but something about the lockdowns of COVID and something about the corporatism of, of woke ideology, I would call it just applied in a, in a Corp university corporate environment. Was it inherently, I think very restrictive for a lot of people. And whether whether their justifications for it or not is totally up to, you know, like it's not my place to talk now, but it was restrictive like by definition. And I think that we're, we're, we're, I think that there's a, there's been a kind of explosion since then of a pushback of don't tell me what I could do or not, don't tell me what to think or not.

26:06 And I think that it's actually also manifesting in music because it's been a very creatively fertiled underground music time and a lot of quote UN quote strange genres that have not been universally or historically very popular that are coming to light now. And it's really, really cool. It's a lot of fun. Also, those that music, those styles, those innovations have avenues and exposure that didn't exist before. Yes, certainly. Part of it you. Know I listen to every Billy. I listen to pretty much every Billy string show now because I have nugs.net and I and I sign up and I pay 20 bucks a month and I and I could listen to all his live shows as they're happening in video or an audio and then I listen back to it for the weeks following and I keep up with the band.

26:50 I'm like, you know, and you can hear this show was awesome. Hey, you want to hear like a great malfunction junction? Listen to the one from November, you know, 19th. And it actually took, and I think enormous part of that was, was so popular about the Dylan world and the dead world and the in the spring and, and the people that would bootleg all their albums is it creates this little vibrant community. And I know that it began in in the 60s and 70s with people trading tapes and records and, you know, and you just, you'd, you'd get a hard copy of it somehow. You just mail it around to your friends, you know? Right. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I used to tape music off the radio.

27:30 And bear in mind that we didn't have radio stations in the music radio like you did in the USI would, you know, a reel to reel tape recorder in front of the radio with a microphone, which is, you know, that was how you you kept the music that you wouldn't necessarily buy, couldn't afford to buy or it wasn't available. Revano's consume. Revano's expensive. Was what? Oh, yeah, not particularly. I mean, you know, when you're a teenager, you haven't got any money anyway, right? So you're you're very careful what you spend your money on. I see. At least that was my experience.

28:11 But yes, I think that that point about music today is is is very interesting. The other extraordinary part of that is virtually all music in recorded music history is accessible, you know, because of streaming, because of those that simply wasn't the, I mean, that wasn't the case 20 years ago, never mind 60 years ago when I was growing up, you, you didn't have access to, to all of that extraordinary talent and creative and recording recordings that existed. So I think the other thing about today is that people have the opportunity to be educated or learn or curious about music that existed before in a much, you know, in a much more exciting way than used to be the case.

29:16 Ology and the neurochemistry between music and and and our bodies, by the way, makes a very, very interesting argument that drumming is actually the healthiest as you as you get older for cognitive well-being to actually drum because it gets blood flowing from all four limbs to your brain. Really, really excellent for Alzheimer's, short term memory loss, Tourette's syndrome, Parkinson's, all of this. I mean it's it's incredible that so there's a lot of but you know to talk about your ability to dive in. He was talking about how there's a part of our music from melodies and words and you could feel it. You don't necessarily need to fill it in and still keep up with it, which is like scatting and skin, you know, scatter that about a bloop. And and he said, case in point, Ella Fitzgerald in this famous concert in Berlin in 19, you know, whatever it was, I think like 5068 or whatever said, you know, did this during Big Mac the knife.

30:10 And I literally I read that paragraph. I pulled out my phone. I put in Ella Fitzgerald, you know, Berlin, it came it up. I found a the exact thing that he's referring to and it was incredible. And I was like, this cool Is this is such a great time to be a music lover, you know, It's so great. Previous generations have never had that opportunity. They would, they wouldn't. They couldn't dream of it. But you know how to do that. I. Mean, you know, you could read about things you could, you know, you could learn, but but hearing it was something else completely different. It is remarkable. And that would change the nature of music and musicians. It just it will, yeah. So I agree it's a very exciting period. Plus the technology that exists that enables you to do a great deal more than you could before, although that's a you know, it's it's it's argumentative, of course, because because of technology creating music as opposed to people. But that's what do you think about that subject? What do?

31:06 You what do you I actually, so I, I hosted last week the entire week with my 10th grade class, a host of AI debates, 5 minute debates based on different AI topics and each member of the class, you know, would pair up and, and when we pro 1 would be anti. And one of the things we talked about was music, music and AI. And I, and actually no one wanted to defend it. So I defended the, the, the, I guess allowing AI to kind of flood the music marketplace and, and what do you, what do you think of it? Have you have you listened to AI generated music or, or did you know, do you have any kind of philosophy or idea about how how you think it could go or whether it's good or not?

31:53 The answer your first part of the question is no. I've had no made no effort to to listen to that. The second part, I tend to see it in the way that technological developments have occurred in, in the past, in, in the 20th century, which relates to music. Technology changes things. It it just does. And, you know, technology changed the way that music evolved from from acoustic to to electric. It it changed, you know, when records went from 70 eights of vinyl to to cassettes to CDs Technology changes things. Electric guitars change.

32:36 I mean, there's any number of instances where technology changes the means with which people make music. And that's perfectly normal. You know, it's a debatable it it's, it's argumented now because one point of view says that it is taking away from musicians. Yeah. But I'm, I'm not, I don't necessarily subscribe to that. It's at the early stages. And clearly, you know, there's, there will be some impact, but I don't actually believe it will in the long term be, be anything but good for music and musicians and for the audiences. Listen, you know, file sharing was considered negative when it first began. It was all about, you know, theft and, and, and, and musicians not earning what they should from recordings. And, and now you know, the evolution of file sharing into digital streaming means that the world have a has access to all the music it could ever imagine.

33:36 And the whole model of the industry flipped on its head. Exactly. So technology changes things and it, I, I think ultimately it will be good for, for music. It'll, it'll be difficult for some people and parts of it, no question about it. But ultimately I think it will evolve to to a level where people will accept it and and then exploit it and make it work for them. Sure, sure. And my, my argument I think would be end up being, I guess too too thoughtful about it. I didn't think too much about it. But I would imagine that this would actually be much more beneficial to performing artists than not.

34:19 And the artists that depend on the studio and a lot of editing and a lot of heavy editing are going to be in a lot of trouble. But the artists who make their living on performing great music in collaboration with other people in a band with that magic, with that magic, I think that's going to become almost like the top. That's going to be a top tier of of music experience. So you could have like the what's your music that you just have to throw on while, you know, while you're while you're jogging and you don't really care what you're doing. You just need something to get you going. And then there's the musical experience that you want where you want to be with the crowd, you want to be with your friends. You want to experience of watching a band riff with one another, you know, and watching the improv and watching it happen live and participating in it.

35:05 And I don't think that's going to go away just because AI makes music too, you know, like if anything, it's even more in demand. You'll be like, hey, I want it, I want to see more of that. That's awesome. Wow, awesome. So so Motown and R&B were your two are your two your two loves, I suppose. How do they in what ways are they similar? In what way are they different? And people I feel like now associate R&B, or I do at least with rap. And so I have to say rhythm and Blues whenever I say rhythm and Blues because I say I, I, I tend to think rap nowadays. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, there was a time when I thought of of Motown really is all part of an R&B genre, but it carved out an identity for itself because it had a distinctive sound.

35:59 But there were many wonderful R&B artists and, and, you know, because I started to listen to music in the early 60s. You know, the R&B acts around at that point were some of the exciting ones from the likes of Atlantic Records. You know, Ray Charles, The Drifters, people like that, James Brown. I love The Drifters. But yeah, you, you know, there was, it was exciting. It wasn't as polished or produced or necessarily, as I was going to say, distinctive. That's perhaps not the word, but it was different to Motown. Motown had a sound.

36:40 Used was a good way to put it. I think produced Motown was like a performance. Every song is like a show, you know? Yes, but there was so, so many wonderful acts that came through in the in the late 50s and the early 60s particularly as some of the songwriters and producers and musicians had access to the tools that would make the the sound, make their music as modern as anything else that was around. Right. So, and, and you also have to remember, as I said before, a lot of those R&B records, not just Motown, but a lot of those R&B records, you know, influence bands that broke through in, in the 60s from this country and elsewhere.

37:23 Yeah. So I was, I had a, you know, a parallels set. Motown was my primary point of interest, but I was of course taken with the stuff that was coming out of stacks, the stuff that was coming out of Atlantic, you know, some of them very obscure. Curtis Mayfield in The Impressions. I adored that music. It was extraordinary so. Ready is one of my favourites. Oh man, people get ready. Is is too stunning, too good. Stunning. Yeah. And, and a good example of how, you know, those gospel roots. I mean, it's, it's a gospel song. It's a church song. Yeah. Mayfield was, was one-of-a-kind. So there was a lot else going on in in what it at the time was sort of was actually called new wave R&B because it was different to what had existed in the 50s, more bluesy, you know, the 50s stuff, more jazzing. Clyde R&B in the 60s was incredibly sophisticated, produced indeed by all sorts of interesting people. Jerry Ragavoy, Bert Burns, all sorts of people like that. But that was really, in a sense, all part of the same innovation and excitement that was coming out of of black music in that decade.

38:39 Yeah. Later in the 70s, it was Gamble and now founded Philly. And then as you carried on, eventually yeah turned into into rap and hip hop. Yeah. But I wonder why it changed and I don't know, I'm curious why and how it changed because it feels like such a dramatic change. I mean, if you, if you think back to the music that's be it's considered R&B today. And then you go back to like, you know, the names that you mentioned, like Ray Charles, like, I mean, you know, I don't, I, I, I don't know if I even see the, the only roots that I could potentially see, And this is the only place perhaps even as a drummer, and you might, you might understand more than me, is that if, if R&B is really about rhythm and Blues, then perhaps emphasis on rhythm with the rap, with rapping is what the new age perspective is.

39:29 Is that right? I think that's, I think that's right there for him. Very much so. I mean, you know, rap, the whole thing is predicated on rhythm being rhythm of lyrics or, you know, rhythm of a track, right? Oh, absolutely. I, I think I, I have a view that one of the reasons it came through, broke through and became so important was that in the late 80's, the 80s and the late 80s when I was working in the States, a lot of black radio was playing. Softer music, It was adult R&B. It was, you know, Anita Baker, singers like that, which I think the kids found it pretty hard to relate to.

40:12 It was. It was a more sophisticated sound. Interesting you think music got older and the audience and the audience got younger. I I think that's what really happened. And to an extent that that was the case because the music getting older appealed to older or the boomers, you know, there we were getting older. So we wanted to hear Atlantic Star or Anita Baker rather than, you know, some, some 17 year old. Right. And radio, by the way, of course, had it's eye on the boomers because they had money. Yeah, they bought things. So radio, advertising, all of that. It's an economic force as much as anything.

40:55 And I think that's one of the reasons rap came through and and redefined music, including black music, because the kids, you know, the young are always the ones who drive it ultimately. And, and they didn't want to listen to, you know, sophisticated R&B. Yeah. How much you test me on that theory, But I, it is something I, I do believe. And that's in part because when I was working at the business that, you know, that was a sense I have of R&B getting more adult. Yeah, which I'm curious about how many of the R&B artists would be pissed off to hear their music be called adult, you know, or called, they're called sophisticated.

41:36 And they'll be like, you know, there's nothing sophisticated about us. We're just a bunch of kids being around, you know, it's very funny. It's like, yeah, I can't imagine if someone told me, hey, you got to listen to this sophisticated show, this guy frying Hersh right now. I'm like, dude, what are you talking about, man? You know, I mean, there's nothing, you know, I mean, we, I like to have a good time, but you know, I'm not looking to be sophisticated. I'm not looking to not appeal to teens or to, you know, the youth or anything like that, if anything. Remember the quiet storm radio format? You know, that broke out. That was, I don't RMB basically was softer black music, R&B, whatever, you know, from a Smokey Robinson song. But you know, if you're 18, you can't relate to that. Yeah, but someone did at some point and I don't know whether it's because it's new and rebellious in that way or whether it's that the taste in music or the appreciate or, or what the music would even imply or lead to or how it related all all changed, you know, And umm, and like what we said, music, I think for a lot of people, whether they realize it or not, is a lot about relatability and like be feeling like someone speaking your language in some form or another. You might.

42:45 Probably be more. Yeah. And that's that's really what happened with hip hop. I mean, that's how it was a new generation. When you're young, you want to define yourself. Yeah, right. And you're looking for things to define you and you. Don't want to be told you're this, you know, kind of like this. I can exactly. Right. And, and by the way, that's what happened to me when I was a teenager with with Motown. I was living in a country and The Beatles and the Stones and all of that were in this capable. I hated them. I didn't, I didn't want to hear any of that stuff, partly because they covered a lot of American R&B stuff and I felt that they were stealing from the originals, but also because I, I was trying to define myself and I didn't want to be like all the rest. I found Motown.

43:37 It's like nobody knows what this stuff is. Oh, this is pretty cool. And I, you know, that happens with every generation. You want something to help define yourself different to what went before. So great, so great. So maybe it's a good thing that Motown stayed in the 60s and 70s seventies then, because I think that it's, I think that there's a beauty to, you know, it's almost, I'm sure you're you're, you're, you're familiar, but I grew up a huge Calvin and hops fan, Bill Waters famous cartoon. And he was depending who you're talking to, infamous or, or or famous for never publishing, you know, another cartoon. Once he decided that he was done, he was like, I, I gave what I had to give. Anything more would be cheapening the brand. Anything more would be hurting.

44:23 You know, the what everything I put into this, he didn't allow. He he staved off, you know, people trying to make movies and sell their merchandising and he and he just pushed it out everything away moved to the middle of Ohio and disappeared. And like he's like, listen, this is where this was for a particular time and place. If you like it in 20 years from now, great. You know, if not, like this was what it's for. And I feel like that's really cool that a musical genre almost, because Motown definitely is a genre. You look it up and I mean, you're going to get enough eclectic musicians, studios, producers, I'm sure that that are all, you know, either wanting to be or under the Motown genre. Well, because of the calibre of the of the work.

45:05 I mean, that's the point. It, it wasn't just that it was, you know, an intriguing, fascinating, attractive sound there. There were the calibre of the musicians and the singers and the songwriters was so good. Yeah, that was an important, but it wouldn't have lasted if it hadn't been for for the calibre of the work. Yeah, and it was. Well, actually I wanted to talk to you also about because I there's also almost a great Motown or R&B songbook. And, you know, it's funny because I don't think a lot of people associate that necessarily. But, you know, for example, most of the songs people don't know that Frank Sinatra would sing were just covers, were just part of, you know, covers in the Great American Songbook. Yeah, and and.

45:47 Then you listen to the rest of the Rat Pack. You listen to, you know, people offered listen to listen to any of the guys and. You marked into Amy Davis? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Same with the exactly and and they're all covering the same songs. They're singing the same songs with their own little twist on it. And there's, and I, and I didn't realize this, but there's a lot of in house great Motown songs. Everyone covers, you know, that like whether it's Aretha Franklin, whether it's, you know, whether it's any of the Motown Motown artist, Curtis Mayfield, Smokey Robinson, Stevie Wonder, they all sing variations of that same song. And there's a lot of really great ones that I think people don't realize are just like this Motown songbook. Yes, I couldn't agree more.

46:33 What are some of? Your favorites of those? Well, I, I was just going to point out an example of a song that I discovered relatively late in life, a Motown song, but it was written by Smokey when he was, it was like 20 or something. And it, it's a, it's a fairly obscure song, but it's called Your mother Called on me today. And it's about a, you know, a girl and boy girlfriend, boyfriend and the mother of the boy doesn't want him associating with this girl because he wants she wants her son to be a doctor, to be a, you know, grow up to be a professional.

47:18 And she thinks that the girl is not good for him with that goal in mind. And it's it's wonderful story. Lyrics are so clever and I'm thinking, I remember when I heard it, which for the first time was probably about 10 years ago, because it wasn't never recorded by anyone who meant anything to anyone. I thought, my God, how can a 20 year old write a song like this? How can he be so sophisticated, so clever when you had little or no life experience And it was a, it was an example of, of his real talent. And the original, you know, the song was written in whatever it was late 50s and you just think, my goodness, this really was a remarkable man song music man songwriter talent.

48:09 And and there were others as well at Motown, but he, you know, Stevie obviously came along a bit later. But again, go back to that point. The calibre of the songwriting. I mean, what it says. I mean, you can you can drill down to the roots of it. Troy was a very schools that taught music to a greater degree than many other cities. It had fabulous, you know, schools as far as music and musicians making music was concerned. There was a big retailer that sold pianos and every home had one of these pianos.

48:50 So it was incredibly musically creative city, which is why there were these extraordinary music musicians and singers who came out of it and and, you know, Motown gave them the opportunity. So it was, you know, combination of, of good luck, of of what how these people had grown up, what they had learned as they were kids and growing up with music. And then someone smart and fortunate like Berry Gordy, who knew how to tap into that and build a company that could make turn those those youngsters into stars.

49:30 Yeah, yeah. There's a lot to take in there, I accept. Yeah, it is. It is. I I, I, I was thinking more along the lines though, because especially as you differentiated between the 60s and the 70s with the 70s was a little bit more songwriting and create independently creative as opposed to the 60s were more kind of get it. A song would be a production. It would be that, you know, it almost be done in house. I think you said like that kind of you take like all the stuff would be under the the brand and like you'd bring the best singer into the best, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Songs like, you know, so Smokey Robinson has a bunch of songs that everyone plays, you know, or has a couple of songs that everyone sings and did you. Is that just collaboration?

50:17 Is that collaborative? Is that is there you think that energy of like jealousy or is there more like I'm I'm lonely? Yeah, person and try copy it. Yeah. I mean, Motown was incredibly competitive in in, in its structure. So do you imagine, you know, Berry Gordy used to have these weekly quality control meetings when people would vote on records that that were in production or that songwriters and producers were making. So it was incredibly competitive, which of course elevates the the work because people wanted want to be the winner, they want to win. So they work harder at it.

50:59 And he had that because it was very much, you know, self-sufficient. I mean, it was if it was considered a family atmosphere. So people all work together, but they were also encouraged to be competitive. So the quality of the work was, was extraordinary and was also self-contained. And one of the important points about this was Detroit was really not considered key part of the music business at that stage in in the early 60s. OK, being a great jazz city, which of course is why the Funk Brothers was, was so extraordinary. You know, it comes, it comes with everything in jazz in Detroit, but as part of the music business, it really wasn't. It wasn't as important to Chicago, New York or even LA. So they were able to do what they did. And this was an important point.

51:48 Motown was able to do what it did without too much messing from the outside world. They were self-contained. They could develop, improve, challenge, innovate without having lots of other stuff going on from other company record companies in the city because there weren't any to to for the most. You know, we had that period where they were doing it all for themselves and that was that helped to that extraordinary creativity that came out of West Grand Blvd. Yeah, and I, I think this because there's two different ways to look at this and I think there's two potential responses. The first one is the value of being small and relatively ignored and relatively not dependent on anyone is how you have a scrappy company like a Pixar become, you know, the company that makes a movie like Toy Story. And Disney had, you know, immediately saw it like they have something that like they have this quickness and nimbleness to them that they can, you know, be much more quick and witty, you know, without being a behemoth, you know, the way that we, the way that the rest of the company was.

52:54 They were dependent on other Yes, yes, they could do. A keeper break. There was nothing there is that the whole world was open to them, right? That's it's it's amazing. And on the other hand, though, with the with the sense of competition, right, Denver, what do you think? You've watched the movie Whiplash with JK Simmons and Miles Teller. No. Oh. I know of it. I don't think I've ever seen. It well, I recommend this. I cannot recommend this strongly enough. The movie Whiplash is about I believe is a jazz drummer and and here's wait a. Minute, I have seen it, of course it is. Yes, Yeah, I have seen you mentioned the drama.

53:35 Feature that gets that gets this incredible performance out of him and like the whole movie. Yeah. And you don't know you don't know what you think of the guy. You don't know is this guy reaching for absolute greatness or is this guy trying to mentally really shatter this poor kid and he gets the best performance but at the cost of like, literally breaking him. I mean it. So so I, you know, and you read accounts to people kind of doing that to themselves and I feel very differently. For example, Springsteen in a boy to run when he was laying on jungle land took like days to get, you know, Clarence Clementon saxophone solo down. Listen, if you're going to push yourself because you're going to push yourself and get want to get the best record you can do, you know, I'm all for that even, you know, I mean, I think I would tell you that I take a break, but you got to do got to do.

54:21 But if for someone to do that to someone else, a teacher to do that to a student, a producer to do that to an act you know, or a music manager to do that someone else, I think is a little bit of a different story. Yeah, I think, I think you're right. I mean, Motown was absolutely that way. It was built that way. You know, they had, they had artist development, they went to lessons to be taught how to perform on stage, right, You know, and how to get in. You know, the Maxine Powell, the, the, you know, the sort of etiquette manager, etiquette manager taught the women, the girls how to get in and out of cars. You know, when they're wearing fortress, I mean, how to behave. If you're going to be a star, this is what you need to know and this is what you have to learn. So all of that, in addition to songs and music and musicians, they, they were creating stars.

55:17 They were teaching them all the things they needed to know to succeed in a way that really hadn't been done to any extent before. And that was, that's the other thing about Motown, because it was self-sufficient. It basically taught them how to how to succeed or how to behave or how to be stars. Yeah, yeah. So the. RCA Records didn't do that. Columbia Records didn't do that, you know. But they had to answer to what the quarter quarterly earnings would be or how many, how many records they saw that month. And I don't know if there if Motown was under the same type of scrutiny at that point. It wasn't. It simply wasn't. Yeah. Yeah, I've also read accounts of the CIA, which is the famous Creative Artists Agency, and that company got started too with Michael Ovitz. And I mean, they're essentially their thing was like, you know, they started off in the mail rooms and they started off in this big industry.

56:11 And then they, and then they basically said, we know, like we, we, we let's all start our own, you know, our own show, you know, we'll do our own thing on the side. But we have from, we're going to every single aspect of our life is going to be uniform and professional. So are our cars going to be the exact same cars whether you can afford them or not? They're going to have the same license plate whether you can afford them or not. You always pay for your clients, whether you can afford it or not. And like, like there's certain like stand and like, and then they, and then they created that tone. And then they would just train agents like that until they became this enormous machine that they are today. But now they can't do the exact same thing they used to do. So it's almost better to, to retire. You know, I think I would rather retire at my creative peak than to, than to judge.

56:57 You know, it's the famous Marvel line. You live long. You, you, you die here. You live long enough to become the villain. Yeah, Yeah, it's, yes, that's pretty interesting. It, it's also, I think to some extent part of American culture, you know, because it, because America is a young country and people want to get ahead, whatever it takes to get ahead. There's not as much ambition is perhaps too limited a word, but but it's, there's a different attitude to that in Europe. And that's the generalisation, of course. Yeah. But you know, what you're talking about is in part a reflection of the relative youth of of America and how people want to succeed, they want to get ahead, they want to define things.

57:48 They want to, you know, discover it all for themselves. It's what's given. It's, you know, economy and and and and everything extraordinary power. But but it is in some ways quite different to other parts of the world. It's very different. I feel very frequently like we're, we're toddlers that just learned how to run and we're just like zipping around and people trying to keep us out of the street and, you know, like that's all we're trying to do but it. Should be very exciting. It is, it really is. And, you know, and, and with listen, freedom, freedom in general, you know, whether you're talking about a national level or a personal level is a pays a very, very heavy price.

58:28 And the toll is not something that I think most people, if you actually, if they knew what it cost, would not necessarily want. Yeah. Can I, can I ask you about because you had some really wonderful opportunities to interview some, some of your heroes or some of these musical heroes rather I would call them. And what was that? What was that like? What was it like to feel like? Was that enormously validating? Did it make you feel like your career was somewhere to able to? You know, I mean, I just saw the list of people that you interviewed on your website and I mean Lionel Richie and Smokey Robinson and Curtis Mayfield and Marvin Gaye. I mean, like these are names that are historical, you know, that are, that are greatest of, you know, musical influences some of all time. Yes, and, and, and it was extraordinary to have that opportunity.

59:19 Having said that, I got more of a kick out of talking to the backroom believers. Yeah, because the artists, for the most, most part, tell you the same stories. And, and that's in the nature of stardom. You know, they're doing 6 interviews today and they'll have 50 this week. They for the most part, they say the same things. You, you and I would do it if just to keep some sort of mental stability because you're often asked the same questions, so you come up with the same answers. Smokey Robinson's a perfect example of that. He tells the same 6 friggin stories you can imagine. I know them all. I heard them 20 years ago. Come on, I know you know more. And that was the thing that I used to find the the advantage of talking to the backroom people, the songwriters, the producers, the label people, is they haven't. Told the the those stories to within an inch of their life. They sometimes they haven't told the stories at all. So you're learning stuff by talking to those people. And that's what as I got into the business, particularly working for something like Billboard when you have access to the backroom people.

1:00:26 Yes. That's what made it in a way more exciting because, and you know, and then this is not to diminish what, what artists have to say, but they say it a lot and you can read it. They're all over the place. But what I found when I moved to New York, particularly because I had for the best part of 15 years studied the back of the backroom of the business, Americans who were in those jobs when I came to interview them for Billboard, were often surprised that I knew as much about them as I did. And it, it makes for a very productive and pleasant setting.

1:01:08 It's like they're flattered because you firstly, you, you know, you know things about whoa, somebody cares. And then they like having the opportunity to talk about this stuff because generally they're not asked about it. So I, I, you know, I would get more of a, I was going to say with Curtis Mayfield, actually, I mean, Curtis is a God, but I used to get as much of A kick out of talking to the guy who ran his record company as, as talking to Curtis. And, and that's what also what I found in doing the Motown book Ephraim. And then earlier I did a book called the Billboard Book of #1 Rhythm and Blokes Hits and and I tried first and foremost to talk to the songwriters and producers and musicians as much as the stars.

1:01:58 And you learn so much more. You're ready to and they, they're much more amenable to speaking, right, especially in more long form. Yes, Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, and, and then they answer questions they've not never been asked before. So it's like, oh, nobody's ever asked me that. And and you get really get fresh insights into the way they think and create and behave. And for, you know, for, for someone who's a journalist, that's, that's the name of the game. You. You want something different, You want something original, You want something fresh. Yeah, yeah, I've found for example in that podcast. I feel very similar way, by the way, because you know, I, I, I'll find, for example, NO1IN, I love Hollywood. I've always been fascinated by Hollywood. You know, obviously Ben Affleck's not getting back to me quite yet, you know, but you know, the stunt, you know, but the stunt double, you know, for X amount of movies is going to get back to me.

1:02:56 The music supervisor, the person that coordinates the music and in over, you know, 200 Netflix films is happy to talk about his experience doing this, this job that you said you don't even think the value exists until you think about it, you know, and like, you're like, wait a minute. Who does pick the music for the back, you know, for the movies? How who decides how that works? What about what's the difference between a score and a soundtrack? How does a movie movie studio decide whether what they're going to do about that? Or if you get a Led Zeppelin song in a movie, how much does that cost? Right. Yeah. What's the process of doing that? Yeah. Or did left or did Led Zeppelin refuse to let that song be used in that particular movie?

1:03:36 Yeah. Exactly because they don't like the scene that he was in. Bother. A lot of times the last to see the movie scene beforehand. I read the script before I like, listen, you're going to tell me I got to find out what this is about. So interesting. Yeah. So yeah, we share that perspective. Yeah, yeah. And I've and, and that's the way that I learned about really all anything that anything that I love doing deep dives into you find. It's been so useful to find everyone on the peripheral because behind like you say, like behind every all these gods, all these forces, you know, with a small G and all these forces, they've only got X amount of time of the day. They're only dealing, you know, they have a million things on their mind. And I, I would never even imagine being in that. I can never even imagine being in that position, you know? But yeah.

1:04:23 And that's why I've been having fun. I've been the hardest part of the podcast for me, actually has been thinking of enough fun, creative, out-of-the-box people that are peripherally aligned that I can get a lot of detail out of. Yeah, good stuff out of it. Yeah, my 2 two of my favorite Motown stories came from, you know, backroom people. In fact, you know, for me, obviously the guy called by the name Barney Eilis, who I wrote the Motown book with, he was, you know, he joined Motown in 1961 as a salesman and he ended up running the company in in in the 70s. But because again, nobody really knew who he was and nobody talked to him, but I knew who he was and I knew what he knew and what he'd done.

1:05:10 So when I had the opportunity to ask him all sorts of questions, it was wonderful. And two of my favourites which I was thinking about earlier today is 1, where in 1962, The Marvelettes, the original group that recorded these, Mr. Postman, were booked into a big gig in San Francisco in Cow Palace. And another Motown artist was also booked like Guy by the name of Eddie Holland, who subsequently became part of the songwriting team Holland Oja Holland. But they were booked to this show, Cow Palace, the Marvell X and Eddie Holland.

1:05:50 And Barney said, OK, So what we did was we we booked the flights for Gladys Horton, who was the lead singer of The Marvelettes and for Eddie. And we hired 4 local Bay Area girls to sing behind Gladys because we couldn't afford to send the whole group from Detroit to San Francisco. No way. You know you'll love that sort of stuff, really. No way. These are the size of the audiences in case they don't get it. Right. And the other one I like was went before The Supremes broke through. And again, it involved Barney.

1:06:35 They were a whole bunch of people. Motown people were at the wedding of one of the marvelets and one of the miracles. And Barney told me the story about how they were all in this Chinese restaurant in downtown Detroit and Diana Ross was in the in the booth next to him. So Barney was there with with some people and Diana and her then boyfriend, the guy who was the boat and engineer was in the booth next to him. And Barney spilled something drink on his tie. And Diana saw that and said, oh, let me get something for you. I can fix that because she'd previously, you know, worked in a, in, in a place that you had them clean clothes. And so Diana was there helping him clean the tie. And while she was doing that, she said to Barney, Barney, do you think we'll ever be as big as The Marvelettes? You know, and, and, and it's just stuff like that you can't make up.

1:07:35 It's wonderful to hear those stories, you know, and that's the opportunity that you get when you talk to the backroom people, the stuff that hasn't been told and, and it's always illuminating, sometimes in a way you don't expect, sometimes not in a good way, but it's fret, it's different, it's new, it's revealing. And you know, we always want to know more, right? Yeah, definitely. So tell me about this book that you wrote. So now we can, we can finally get to your book about because what's, what's cool is it's a it's a visual book it and I actually think that, and I was, I was thinking about it as I was, I was, you know, looking at it and reading about it.

1:08:15 I feel like if there's, if there's an industry in which a book could be, you know, told the story could be told and narrated without words primarily, you know, with pictures and editorials. This is a great industry to be able to do it, but it feels like an alternative form of storytelling for sure, right? Yep, and. Can you tell you what the process was like? How to happen? Well, it's funny it happened because in 90 on November the 13th 1966 I went from my hometown of Bristol to London to see the first time The Four Tops performed in in London. They performed at a theatre in in the West End called the Sable Theatre.

1:08:59 How long is that train from Bristol to how long is the trip? From oh it's 120 miles. It's a 3 hour drive. I got my my best friend to drive me because I didn't drive. OK, gotcha. Down to London to go see the show. I had a front row ticket. I The Four Tops were my gods. I knew every song that they'd ever recorded at that point and I couldn't believe I was going to see them live. So it was just a stunning show and the following year I thought I had to go back and see another Motown act of the Saddle. So I went to see Glads the Night and the Pips. Same theatre but top of the bell. At that point were was a guy called Joe Tex who was pretty cool R&B stylist at the time but not very popular in the UK and I knew his records and liked them but I didn't want to see him. I, you know, seen Gladys who had, I wanted to see in the 1st place.

1:09:56 So I left the theatre, went down the road to a pub on Charlesbury Ave. went into the into the pub and there I saw the guy I recognise being Barney Ellis, who was then the head of sales for Motown. And the only reason I recognised him is because I got my aunt in America to send me copies of the trade papers from time to time. So cashbox and Billboard and I, so I knew who this dude was. I knew he was the head of sales for Motown and I introduced obviously and I was a 17 year old, I had the hotspot to introduce myself to him, but he was blattered that somebody from London would recognise him. So that was a really good start to it. And then several years later when I joined Music Week, which was the trade paper in the UK at the time, it still is.

1:10:42 And he came over to London to he, he'd left Motown for the first time and set up his own label. I got to talk to him again. And that was when we we really made a connection and became friends. And then when I moved to the States, I kept in touch with him. So about which is now 15 years ago, bit more than 15 years ago. You know, I'd always said, Barney, I want to write a book with you. You know you were on the inside of Motown. You know everything. Yeah. And his son called me one day in about 2011 and said, you know, Adam, if you still want to write that book, you need to do it sooner rather than later. And at that point I realised he was right. So I just got down to it and I went out and interviewed Barney. We started the whole process.

1:11:33 It took about 18 months. And I used to, when I was in London, I used to say I went to Detroit every weekend because he and I would do. And that a, you know, a call. What was that? There was that technology, phone technologies. No, before that, can't think what it was. You know, we could just talk online face to face. Video call. No, it shut down. Yeah, it was a video call, but it was a specific service. Can't think of the name of it anyway, but I went to the toy that. Weekend. Because I would sit and ask every question I'd ever wanted to ask about this guy whom your Motown inside out. And it was fantastic.

1:12:16 It was really the most extraordinary opportunity to do it. And, and what was also important in the making of the book is because his stories hadn't been told before, whereas much of the Motown story had the combination of those, those photographs, the visuals and the back story with something different than another book about Diana Ross. And, you know, Stevie Wonder and, and, and all of the, you know, the glamour and the stardom. It's like how this all came to be because Barney knew how it all came to be. So it was a, it was, you know, good luck and that good fortune from seeing him in a in a pub in central London in 1967. Yeah, yeah.

1:13:01 And it shows how many shows how you kind of have to take these, you know, well, A, you have to take advantage of these opportunities, but B, the fact that you're even passionate enough at 17 to be getting trade papers from your aunt in the States, you know, but that's a good thing. I think it's a really good thing. I I have a student that the other day he's I I, my first high school freshman class is graduating. I'd started teaching four years ago. Oh, right. Wow for. My students that were freshman and now seniors, and I'm talking to one of them who's been in my class for probably three of the four years of his high school career. He said. And and I hear him talking to his friend about who's going to be an accountant. I was like, dude, you're 17, you want to be an accountant?

1:13:41 I said, you want to be an accountant. He's like, yeah. I was like, why? He's like, because my sister works in IT. She hooked me over the job. I'm like, you have to try like 3 jobs before you decide that you want to be an accountant because you're 17 and like, you can do an internship this summer and anything that you want and you can do and you could try it now. Try like, you know, think about things that you that you love and and the earlier that you start, the more time you have to get lucky, the earlier. That you start, Yes, you're absolutely right. Yeah. And that's, and what's happened to me is a perfect example of that. You know, the earlier you start, the opportunities are there if you, you know, if you have the the appetite and the passion to do it.

1:14:23 And it's extraordinary. I mean, I look back on my career and I still really can't believe it the way it would, you know, yes, it's been amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's it's it's a heck of a ride and I hope that you get a lot, you get a lot of pride from the great work that you've done. I. Appreciate it for him. It's it's just having that opportunity and it's, you know, to just to hear, talk to and understand these remarkable people both in, you know, front of house and back of house, if you like, you know, Marvin, you know, I mean, just interviewing Marvin. I got to interview Michael Jackson before, before Thriller, before it really blew up.

1:15:09 So those opportunities. Do you have a question of him? When you when you when you interviewed him. God, he was as shy as you could possibly imagine. It was a dreadful interview because he didn't really want to do it. He didn't want to. Yeah. Umm. But you know what? I. Think of him. I don't know what I think of the allegations. I don't know what I think of the legacy. I don't know what I think of separating the music from the artist. Or, you know, I don't, I don't know what what to think about a lot of this stuff. Umm. But I'm conflicted enough that it unsettles me enough to not, you know, get too into the the particular song. But I don't know, I have a hard time with that. I just play a record and it all falls away.

1:15:51 It's just amusing. Because I think I'm very, like I said earlier, it's very intentional to me. It's very personal, you know, So for example, if I hear Springsteen, you know, I mean, it's actually a great example now, you know, you hear him sing a song about what it's like working factory and then you know that he's got a billion dollars. I don't know if you're quite, quite something the same thing over here. But that's actually, it's funny because I, I, I, I was a huge fan. I discovered Springsteen and I think 2018 or 19 and then 2023, I think I got my first chance to see him live and I've listened to hundreds of hours of his concerts until then. And I went to hear him and I'm like, I'm chasing, I've been chasing some.

1:16:32 I'm chasing a ghost because the Springsteen that wrote Thunder Rd. as a 17 year old poor kid whose parents just moved away, you know, is a very different Springsteen performance than 70 year, you know, 72 year old guy. That's yeah. And and so I realized that I was chasing more of a ghost of a point in time rather than rather than an artist. I imagine it's. So that was a shocking for free too. And, and that's the virtue of recorded music is you, if you want to, you can just hear that music. And, and that's all that matters. If it has the power, if you are drawn to it, everything else falls away from the power of of the piece of music. Whether it's going to run or or heard it through the Grapevine or reach out, I'll be there or whatever it it has that ability to render everything else irrelevant in that moment. Before we go, before we come in, before we wrap up for today, This has been so much fun.

1:17:30 Thank you so much for your time and stories. I would love 5 recommendations that you think that people should listen to from the Motown R&B genre off the top of your head that you think that people need to know or that people should know. Right. Always a tough question. Well, The Four Tops, of course, because they changed my life. And Ask the Lonely is is an incredibly powerful ballad of theirs which is not particularly well known, but captures the essence of the melancholy of The Four Tops. So. The Four Tops? Ask the lonely. Yep. OK, David Ruffin, walk away from love. OK, again, a 70s thing.

1:18:17 But the voice, just that voice, is just beyond measure. OK, that's 2. David Ruffin, fall away from love. I think Brenda Holloway, Every Little Bit Hurts is one of those because it's almost isn't a Motown record, but it is wonderfully engaging and and and and different. OK, Brenda Holloway, every little bit hurts. Yeah, let's see. Well, Marvin and, and that's the challenge in a way. Look at well, because there are two Marvin's, OK.

1:18:57 And and I had a hard time adjusting to the the second Marvin because I've been so devoted to the first. But from the first Marvin ain't that Peculiar is is again the quintessential Motown record of the mid 60s written by Smokey Robinson. So. OK, Ain't That Peculiar By Marvin. Written by Smokey Robinson. Yeah, and the last one number. Five, you know, I'd go back, although it's it's very obscure and and it ought to be findable online, but I would go back to that song of Smokey. Your mother called on me today and and it's important that the recording of it is won by a woman called Francis Burnett. OK, perfect.

1:19:49 Because the second version which was added and Francis Burnett wasn't a Motown, but it was. It was a song that Smokey wrote before really there was Motown. There's a second version which is not quite as good, but just as an example of the calibre of his songwriting when he was young. OK, just keep. It for the music, keep an eye out for the lyrics, keep an eye out for the production and and see what the magic of this Motown foundation is. Yep. Well, very exciting. Mr. White, thank you so much. This is so much fun. Real pleasure, thank you for having me. Have a great day, take Care now. You too. So long.