Music Series 7: Chris Reali / Understanding Music Business / Records & Streaming / Rock n Roll

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Welcome to another episode of
come together

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we are live with Professor Chris
reality how are you today good

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to.
Be with you.

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Yeah, Thanks for having me.
Sure, of course.

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Yeah, I, I was doing some
homework on some guests that

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really knew the insurance and
outs and backgrounds of the

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music world.
And when I saw that you were in

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Ramapo College, I got really
excited as a local Rockland

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County, you know, I was born, I
think I was born in Valley

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Hospital.
My mom went to Ramapo.

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And so I got excited about that.
And then I was even more excited

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about everything that you study,
so and everything you research.

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So I'm excited to have you here.
Thanks.

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Yeah, happy to be here.
So there's the, you know, I, I

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mentioned, I sent you an e-mail
yesterday with a couple of

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things I wanted to talk about,
and you said that each of those

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topics were, you know, worthy of
several hours worth of

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conversation.
Indeed.

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And I wanted to talk to you
about the business of music

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because I've done a lot recently
about the about particular

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artists or particular genres.
And I kind of want to get into a

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little bit of the nuance of how
the business works because the

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music industry is known as a
pretty tough industry for the

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artists, very cutthroat as far
as trying to make it yourself.

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And if you can maybe give me
just a little bit of background

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on how the introduction to those
to this industry, it would would

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be that would be awesome.
Well, I guess the the question,

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how do what kind of perspective
do you want?

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Because there are there's so the
industry is you is huge, right?

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And there's also like there is
if we divide it into a dichotomy

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like there's the artist side and
then there's like the wickets

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call the label side and there's
more than that.

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So right.
Oh, that's a.

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Great.
That's a great question.

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Thank you for asking.
OK, for asking to elaborate,

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I'll be curious first from the
artist side, If you're, you

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know, if you're an artist and
you're trying to make it as a

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musician, And I know that
historically you would probably

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start by playing local bands,
trying to get someone to or some

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local gigs, trying to get
someone to recognize you and

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then essentially try to get a
record printed.

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At least historically, that was
the way that you got started.

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True.
Yeah.

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So that is very true.
So, you know, up until, well, I

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mean, that's still kind of,
that's still kind of the case.

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So, you know, the modern music
industry, I would say started

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roughly, we could say call it
100 years ago, you know, roughly

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with the over the before the
obviously Edison invents the,

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the market, the recording
technology in the 1800s.

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And then it doesn't really take
off till what's roughly the

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1920s.
You know, although the a lot of

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major, a lot of major labels
have their roots that go back

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over 100 years.
So they get very, very deep

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buckets.
Yeah.

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So artists.
Yeah.

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So you you would, you know, do
some local gigs, play some cover

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songs likely, and then you would
hopefully attract local, local

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following, you know, and try to
create a buzz.

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And that's still, that's still
the case to this day, but there

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are very few.
And then, you know, you know, if

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you had enough of enough of a
buzz, maybe someone from a label

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would hear about you somehow and
you would they come see a live

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show.
And that's, that's that.

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That position is called an A&R
artist repertoire.

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They don't totally exist that
much anymore.

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There are very few people who
like it was usually guys lurking

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in the back of the club, you
know, trying to hear what what

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band trying to hear a potential
in a band.

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Those positions exist, but not
not so much anymore.

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A lot of a lot of the stuff
happens via social media,

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although labels have kind of
soured on signing someone who

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one of who's blown up on via
TikTok because they realize that

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they virality on TikTok or any
social media platform doesn't

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actually trailer to butts in
seats.

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So again, so you so you play, so
you play gigs and then you, you

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if you were, you know,
hopefully, you know, you maybe

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sign a record deal and those
deals were rather onerous back

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in the day.
And this goes back, you know, up

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up through roughly the early
2000s, you know, you'd sign

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maybe a six or seven record deal
if you again, if you work in a

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major label, so.
Let's consider a lot, right?

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Six or seven records is probably
10 years to work.

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For Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and,
or more and, and, you know, and

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each, each, and, you know, back
then they would typically refer

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to like what we call album
cycles.

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And so album cycles are not
years.

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Album cycles are like basically
like this.

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A songs, a song gets released or
the album gets released or a

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single gets released on the
album and then you work the

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album and it could be an album,
it could be 3 years, sure.

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No, because it's, it's basically
when they say, yeah, you know

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what?
We've we've milked this thing as

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much as possible.
And then and the artist, I'm

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going to take a break and they
go recording do it again.

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So again, so your, your six or
seven deal album deal could

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literally be, you know, at least
10 years.

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And often back in the day, we
and one of the things that

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happened, you knew someone was
leaving a label when all of a

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sudden the greatest hits came
out.

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And that was pretty typical,
really standard.

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That was like always typical.
And it might be a bonus track.

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You know, like the greatest hits
typically admitted the end, end

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of the contract.
So that was, that was what

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happened back in the day.
Now artists are way more savvy

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and they're releasing single
albums or, and, or, and the, and

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the deals of the, the structure
of the deals has changed quite a

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bit.
So as there's been a lot more

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information flowing to artists
and yeah, so, so artists are

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aware that like ownership of
your, of your intellectual

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property is, is the biggest
thing.

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Despite the fact that the
industry has changed quite a bit

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from like we've gone from
physical media to digital world,

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the, the basic principle of
industry has never changed.

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And that's all.
It's copyright ownership.

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And so that is at the heart of
everything.

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And so who owns the copyright?
So in a recording, there are two

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copyrights.
So there was, there was the

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copyright for the recording and
there's a copyright for the

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sheet music.
And although most, most people

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don't deal in sheet music
anymore, but that was that was

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basically how that was the sheet
music was, was a huge part of

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the music industry up until the
1960s and 70s, even maybe

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beyond.
Because that was considered

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exclusive.
No, it's not exclusive because

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so there were, so, you know, the
copyright is, is enshrined in

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the, you know, it's, it's a,
it's a constitutional right.

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And copyright is both the most
basic thing and most complex

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thing in the world.
So like, you know, so I took a

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picture on my phone or my
camera, I have a copyright,

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right?
So that's it.

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So the copyright is it is the
right to copy.

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That is basically what it means.
And then if you want to register

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your copyright with the, with
the US government, which do that

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through the Library of Congress,
that costs money, right?

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And So what happens is, is that
if you want to when you sign a

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record deal.
So if I assign you to my label,

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so you write the songs, you have
to then transfer ownership to me

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because I can't release them
without your permission.

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And the only way to do that is
to transfer them to me.

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And so in exchange for that, I
would give you a royalty and,

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and the royalty rates are
negotiable.

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But there, there was a, there
was a limit on what the

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government says.
There's a minimum of what you

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can, what you can stand, what
you can stay, what you can,

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which you what you can collect
again.

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And there's lots of nuance.
And obviously the more famous

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you are, the the more the more
you've been successful, the

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higher like the like higher like
the liar back.

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The higher you, the higher your,
your royalty would, would be

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potentially.
And royalties, royalties are

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different there.
So you know, there's also people

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have discussed like, oh, Spotify
pays .000 whatever, but there is

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no, there is no per stream rate.
And so royalties, royalties

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depend on, you know, there's
different royalty rates for

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recorded media, there's
different royalty rates for, for

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digital media.
So it, it all depends.

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And so it's really complicated
got you on so and, and, and so,

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and then there's also, there's
also royalty for the songwriter.

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So again, if you are the
songwriter and the recording

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artist, you might get paid two
different ways.

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And so again, that that
knowledge has been, that's

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always been the case, but I
think a lot more artists know

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that.
And so they're so going back to

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deals like, so a, a lot more
artists are like, yeah, you

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know, I don't want to sign a
long term record deal with it.

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I, I just want you to, I need a
label to promote me because

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that's kind of what major labels
really do is that they, they

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help you get above the din,
right?

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Because there's literally
hundreds of thousands of songs a

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day released.
How do you, how does someone

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find your song if it is worse
than a needle in the haystack?

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Yeah.
And so that major labels can

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help with that, and so can
independent labels, too.

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And it also depends on the style
of music.

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Right, right, right, right.
It's so it's so funny to and

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interesting to think about
because that it really is.

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I mean, first of all, just the
aspect of there's so many

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different avenues and ways for,
you know, streams of money to be

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coming in and going.
Would you think that part of

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part of the reason why it's so
complicated is because artists

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tend to be less business
oriented or savvy and so this

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would find other ways are bound
kind of getting them the full,

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you know, as much as they
probably could earn?

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Yeah, Yeah.
I mean, yeah, just typically

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artists have not been that savvy
on the business side and they've

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got screwed, you know, and
historically, people of color

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and women have gotten really got
screwed.

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And I mean, there's lots of
documentation about that.

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So.
Yeah.

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And it's I mean.
I can't and I can't help think

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about the whole Springsteen
debacle with Mike Appel and

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yeah, and you know, I mean, the
fact and and and go to to your

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point about owning the song, I
thought this is interesting as

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as you were saying it, he fought
so hard to have, you know, the

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rights to to to the Born to Run
album and you know, the other

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albums that he wrote before
that.

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And I think just a couple of
years ago, he ended up selling

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the whole his all his all his
rights to Sony, I believe,

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right.
Like 8 hundred 800 million or

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billion dollars.
Something crazy like 8. 100

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million, yeah, roughly, yeah.
You know, again.

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And I mean, yes, so ownership
can.

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Ownership is really crucial,
right.

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So, you know, there, you know,
you know, if your song gets

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placed in a movie or a
television show, I mean, that

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can be a very lucrative payday.
If not, you know, I mean,

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there's obviously lots of the,
you know, the, the lots of

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examples of artists who are
like, quote UN quote, like they

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were top of the chart and they
were broke because they, they,

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they signed very poor deals.
I think, you know, not, not no

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fault of their own.
Someone like, Hey, listen, just

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on this deal, let's 100,000
bucks right now and don't work

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at the back end and like, oh,
back.

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And what's that on?
You know, I think it's front,

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you know, and and this happened
a lot in the in the early R&B

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days in the 50s where I get
someone to give you 200 or 500

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bucks, which was a lot of money
back then.

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But again, but knowing that
copyright last very completely

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at this point, copyright, it's
life with the author plus 70.

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So like that is basically like,
you know?

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Hey everyone real quick if
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subscribe and rate the show. 5
stars helps a time.

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Thanks so much.
It is 150 years basically

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00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,320
depending how long you live.
Yeah, yeah.

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And, and, and the, and the
owners of those songs, whether

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it's the label or, or the
publishing company or both, you

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00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,080
know, they, they, they, they are
making money for a long time.

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00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,720
And that that that's what was at
the heart of Taylor Swifts, you

229
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,760
know, complaint with with big
machine and Scooter Braun is

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00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,840
like, I want to own my masters.
And then and then she found this

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00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,680
loophole by some by recording
stuff and and then and, and

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00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:46,000
because she did that, every
major label has made more than

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wall that off.
That'll never happen again.

234
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,120
Like she are smarter than which
is great, you know, good for

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00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,000
her, But that that whole thing
was basically about money as

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00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,440
well.
It was about artistic control.

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00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,200
And I know the Swifty is going
to come after me, but for this,

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00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:58,360
but it's true.
I mean, she had artistic

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00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,080
control, but she also, she also
wanted money and, and, and, and

240
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,120
she's all entitled to make that
so.

241
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:04,800
The Swifties are everywhere.
You can't.

242
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:05,880
You can't escape them.
You.

243
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,000
Know like you know she's she's
an amazing business woman,

244
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,000
right?
She's a very talented songwriter

245
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,480
and a very talented performer
too like it again?

246
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:13,880
No, she's.
Incredible.

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00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:15,480
She's incredible.
There's no question about it.

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00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,040
And, and the hate that she gots
it, I think, I think is more

249
00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,680
than a little silly.
And I think that anyone that

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00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:23,560
does the amount of work that she
does and puts the amount of

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00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:26,960
effort that she puts into
anything deserves an enormous

252
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,200
amount of respect, whether or
not you appreciate the art.

253
00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:32,640
Yeah, I, I, I, I tell all my
music students, my business

254
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,720
students is like, listen, you
don't have to like her, but you

255
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,120
need to pay attention to what
she does because she, she moved

256
00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:38,960
the needle, right?
You don't like the music that it

257
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:40,480
doesn't matter, right?
In this, in the business of

258
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,520
music, it is not about who is
better or best.

259
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,760
That's that's subjective, right?
It's it the, the artist who, the

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00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,520
artist who quote UN quote wins.
The industry is the one who

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00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,760
sells the most records.
So and right now it's basically

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00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,480
her and BTS are winning.
You know, are you, are you

263
00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,760
familiar with the podcast called
The Town with Matt Bellamy?

264
00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,240
I'm not.
He's a, he's a Hollywood guy,

265
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,880
but you know, there was a he
does, he does cute episodes and

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00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,000
he's, he's a big insider.
He gets, you know, Netflixs CEOs

267
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,040
and Sony CEOs and AMC CEO and he
gets a lot of big people to

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00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,240
interview short 30-40 minute
segments and and he had this

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00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,240
conversation with a bunch of
people more than once.

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00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,240
If you had to pick up the phone
for like Bob Iger, the CEO of

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00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,200
Netflix or Taylor Swift, they're
like, we're picking up the phone

272
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,320
for Taylor Swift every single
time, you know, like, you know,

273
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,600
that anything that she touches
is going to turn to absolute

274
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,320
gold.
But it's great to hear everyone

275
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,880
say that like her reach is
really incredible.

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00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,760
You mentioned earlier that that
that that the standard that the

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00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,640
way that that record companies
would find artists has shifted

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00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,280
in that you said a TikTok and
online presence doesn't

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00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,760
necessarily put butts in seats.
Can you elaborate on that a

280
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,800
little bit?
Sure.

281
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,840
You know, again, part of that
was was pandemic, right?

282
00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,600
So looking for the next big
thing.

283
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,480
No and yes, of course, you know,
labels.

284
00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,200
Look at your social footprint
right there.

285
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,320
They are.
They're going to want they want

286
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,520
to know what your fan base is
and like and and your social

287
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,920
footprint finds.
Give them an indication.

288
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,880
And so, you know, again, you
might have, you know, you could

289
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,840
have a, a global following on,
on either Instagram or, you

290
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,280
know, I, I know most people
don't use most people who I'm

291
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,120
coming to use Facebook or
TikTok.

292
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,600
But you know, you, if you have
a, you have 10 million followers

293
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,600
on Instagram, right, which is an
enormous amount of people, but

294
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:28,800
they're of they're scattered
across the globe and you want to

295
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,480
do a show in New York City and
you only have, you know, even

296
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:33,880
the 50,000 followers in New York
City.

297
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:35,480
And again, you can atomize that
you compete there.

298
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,760
There are platforms that look,
you know, let's say there's

299
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,400
where that you can literally go
down to say almost to the block

300
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,280
level, right?
And so, but that doesn't mean

301
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,840
that if you do a show at, you
know, a club in Brooklyn or a

302
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:48,680
club in the city that they're
going to show up.

303
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,720
And so so labels realize that
you could or so you again, you

304
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,200
might have this viral moment and
and it's and and so again,

305
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,240
trying to trying to Co trying to
get the fans out of their house

306
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,240
into your show, or there's that
and all the they also like

307
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,400
there's no second song, right?
So like, you've got this really

308
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,040
awesome one song, but there's no
you don't like you don't.

309
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:09,360
I have none of the 50 songs
ready to go.

310
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,320
Like I spent all my time working
on this one song to have it go

311
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,280
viral and then I don't have
anything else in my in my tank,

312
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:16,960
right?
Because because of, you know,

313
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,200
virality, I mean, virality is
not virality is more or less

314
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,000
manufactured at this point,
right?

315
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,320
It's almost really hard to to
get that to go organic.

316
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,680
But either way, again, you, you
need to have what is your second

317
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,600
song, right?
So they, I mean, you know,

318
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,920
there's, there's a famous line
that's often attributed to Elvis

319
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,440
Costello, although he doesn't
recall saying this is like you

320
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,080
have, you have your entire life
to write your first record.

321
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:37,680
You have six months to write
your second one.

322
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,880
And so I, I think labels realize
that again, they, they, they

323
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,600
would easy cash in, they, they,
they, they pluck an artist off

324
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,280
of TikTok, they dump some money
into it to, to blow it a bit

325
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:47,960
more, and then they would
extract some more from there.

326
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,800
And the, and the artists make
some money too, and then they

327
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,960
move on to somebody else.
And so how how many artists you

328
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,800
know, have been signed it have
had sustained career growth

329
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,520
through either TikTok, you know,
even you know, even YouTube, you

330
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,600
know, I, I know Bieber just
played, you know, Coachella, You

331
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,600
know, if you know, and you know
he there's, you could count on

332
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,240
one hand the amount of artists
who actually blown up because of

333
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:10,920
social media and have had a
career.

334
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,960
I've had a long time career
after that, you know, it's

335
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,080
again, you can, you can use the
platform to get attention, but

336
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,520
to sustain that attention, you
need to have the talent as well.

337
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,840
Sure.
And, and, and, and so that's

338
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,720
that's kind of what I mean.
So, you know, and it's and it's

339
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:26,800
obviously a combination of all
that.

340
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:27,880
So, you know, do you have a
social presence?

341
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,160
Do you have, you know, do you
have a show?

342
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,760
Do you have passionate fans who
are willing to come see you on a

343
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,560
Tuesday night at midnight, you
know, and in in some, in some

344
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,240
podium town somewhere, right,
because that, that's what that's

345
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,840
what needs to happen, right?
It is is a sustainable career.

346
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:42,800
It's really interesting.
It's really cool.

347
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,880
I I feel like going forward in
the next couple of years, the

348
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,640
music business is going to
switch into it's going to, I

349
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,680
mean further come apart and
there's going to be an industry

350
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,880
of live music, you know, and
festivals and you know, and and

351
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,000
and live performing bands.
And then there's going to be the

352
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,720
industry of the online presence
and the studios and the digital

353
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,840
slash real world.
And I know it kind of already

354
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,640
is, but I know that historically
they're always tied together.

355
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,320
Like you said, you know, if an
album used to was easily, you

356
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,560
know, you'd, you'd single, like
you said, release the album and

357
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,080
then spend anywhere between six
months and a year and a half or

358
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,280
whatever it is touring that
album, you know, all over the as

359
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,480
as as often as you can that
expectations not really there

360
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,680
anymore.
And you don't really have the

361
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,520
same kind of like, you know,
Springsteen River tour or, you

362
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,160
know, Bob Dylan, you know,
whatever, whatever tour they

363
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:35,680
whatever.
I guess he does a little bit

364
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,600
more sporadically.
But the Grateful Dead with tour

365
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,160
albums or whoever it was, that's
not an obligation anymore to

366
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:47,360
make it as an artist these days.
And yeah, maybe, maybe maybe I'm

367
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,640
wrong.
That's just what I what I feel

368
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,960
like from what I consume.
Well, so you know, when I talk

369
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,920
about, so I teach classes about
the music industry and so I, I

370
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,120
talk about there are, there are
basically like 7 aligned mini

371
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,520
universes, right?
So, you know, often I tell, so

372
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,200
when people think about the
music industry, especially

373
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,480
people who are not, who not do
don't know, but the business

374
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,079
side, they often think about the
recording artist, right?

375
00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:13,640
So like the face of, for many
people, the face of the industry

376
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,040
are people like BTS or Beyoncé
or Telus, We have to, because,

377
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,599
because they see the recording
artist, but in reality, it's way

378
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:22,079
bigger than that.
And so, so there's the recording

379
00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:24,280
industry, right?
And, and a lot of this overlaps,

380
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:25,640
right?
There's the publishing industry,

381
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,120
there's the live industry,
there's, there's, I know there's

382
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:31,680
brick and mortar store.
So there's so there, there, you

383
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,400
know, there's music education.
So you know, I tell my students,

384
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,520
do you are part by taking these
classes, you or you are part of

385
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,760
the music industry, like as I
taught middle school band music

386
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:40,840
industry.
So there's, there's a very broad

387
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,400
universe.
So you know when so that's why I

388
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,280
asked you earlier.
Well, what aspect you want to

389
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,760
talk about because it because
the, the, the answer depends on

390
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,160
on how we're, how we're framing
this.

391
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,120
So yes, you know, the artists
would typically go out and you

392
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:56,640
know, you get signed to a deal
and you promote a single.

393
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:57,960
Hopefully the single got to
radio.

394
00:17:58,120 --> 00:17:59,800
And so now radio is not as
important anymore.

395
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:02,880
You know, you know, again, in my
day and maybe part of your day

396
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,320
too, like, you know, getting a
song on, you know, WPLJ or WW

397
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,560
was a big if it's a rock thing
or, you know, if it was a

398
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,560
rapper, rapper or, or anything
on Hot 100 or whatever.

399
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,680
And again, and they had a huge
reach, right?

400
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:16,680
And you know, millions of people
heard those songs at the same

401
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,320
time.
And so now, now people trying to

402
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,520
get songs onto, onto, you know,
onto playlists, you know, and

403
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,000
you know, there was there were
these a lot of gate.

404
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,080
There were, there were, there
were lots of gatekeepers on the

405
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,040
radio right there.
There are, there are lots of

406
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,400
still lots of gatekeepers on, on
streaming, on streaming

407
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,360
platforms.
And, and then artists would go

408
00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:34,720
out and, and, and, and try to
make some money and they would,

409
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,840
they would.
So the record sales didn't

410
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,240
actually make money.
And there was a, there was a

411
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,000
time where record sales did,
people did make some money.

412
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,880
Again, obviously, if you know,
when you start selling Michael

413
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,920
Jackson and was like for
Thriller or you know, I will

414
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,680
always love you.
Bye by Whitney Houston like

415
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,760
those they made lots of money
because those sold in the 10s of

416
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:59,200
millions, right.
And so the one of the one of the

417
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,000
one of the one of the major
impacts of the of the the

418
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,920
pandemic was obviously the sort
of shut down all the live stuff.

419
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,360
And so that's how a lot of
artists still make what had were

420
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:12,040
making money and then still make
money because, you know, this,

421
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,360
you know, streaming income is a
trickle, but it's but you know,

422
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:18,760
again, there are lots of mid
level artists who are who are

423
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,680
pulling, you know, 30,000
streamers of, you know, 30,000.

424
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,840
This is a month and making a
living by doing that and they

425
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,960
can make it, you know, is it a
good living, right, But you

426
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,960
know, but you can go play a show
and you walk out with the cash

427
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,120
in hand, right.
Again, you know, you play a show

428
00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:34,320
with the garden, right?
You're going to you'd like the

429
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:37,000
you're going to walk up with
millions of dollars that that

430
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,600
again, there's lots of expenses
that are going to be wrong.

431
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,440
But you know, and depending how
that artist lives, you know, you

432
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,440
you could actually have, you
know, you could do A11 arena

433
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,120
tour again, if you're that level
every couple years and you're

434
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:49,480
going to do and you are going to
never have to work and never

435
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,520
have to have to have a real job
again, right?

436
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,480
You know, but but that's that is
very far in between.

437
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,720
Most artists are working at the
pub level, right, So that

438
00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,240
they're playing breweries,
they're they're playing, you

439
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,400
know, the small 300 feet, 300
seat clubs or 303 hundred

440
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,720
capacity clubs, you know, And so
I but again, you can still make

441
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:06,920
you can still do pretty well
there too.

442
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,160
And then.
And so the idea is having

443
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,320
numerous revenue streams coming
at the same time.

444
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,240
So like I can go on tour, play
some shows.

445
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,640
I will have some money flowing
in from, from my songwriting and

446
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,760
my recordings.
Also know that, Also know that,

447
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,760
again, most people don't realize
this, that recording royalties

448
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,600
and publishing royalties take
about almost a year to get to

449
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,720
you.
So you release a song.

450
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,520
Yeah, you release a song today
and it, it could be #1 right.

451
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,120
And then you actually don't get
paid.

452
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:38,320
It just takes us so long.
Not granted that lie.

453
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,160
It's opaque.
It's opaque by nature, right?

454
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,960
So it is so like I, you know,
I'm, I, you know, I, I write

455
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,400
songs and I have, I have stuff,
I have a couple albums out, you

456
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,160
know, and, and I have some stuff
trickling in and like, I get

457
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,480
the, the, my latest royalty
statement was from BMI because

458
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,000
I'm a BMIBMI member.
BMI is a performing bright

459
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,320
organization.
They're not a publisher.

460
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:03,040
I, my publishers is, is Song
Trust and I think I'm the, I got

461
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:04,120
paid.
It's about a year ago.

462
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:06,400
Like the music I'm getting, what
I get paid for now is stuff that

463
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,160
was played about a year ago.
It's, it's why it's because it's

464
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:11,720
opaque.
It's really challenging to, you

465
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,600
know, to, to the accounting to
fact trace the song, right,

466
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,640
where'd it come from?
And then finally have a trickle

467
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,800
down and, you know, not granted,
if you're with a major label.

468
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,680
And so you would see a song and
it blows up, it comes, becomes

469
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,160
#1 and it, it's and, and you and
you are, if you were the artist

470
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,240
are like, hey, listen, I'm
eating chicken Mcnuggets here.

471
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,120
I need, I want to have a steak.
Can you label, lend me some

472
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:34,720
money based on royalties?
They will say, yes, you know,

473
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,480
you could, and you could say
we'll give you X amount of

474
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,480
money.
And then when the royalties come

475
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,320
in, we will keep that bat we
will retain that, but we'll give

476
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:42,840
you money.
But, but we've already paid you

477
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,080
for that.
And then that happens all the

478
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,920
time.
But you can advance on your

479
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:47,760
royalties.
I don't know if you're familiar

480
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,040
with the, there's a case now
where Limp Bizkit suing

481
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,160
Universal Music Group for, for
the, because they, they said you

482
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,160
owe us back royalties.
And like, they're suing them for

483
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,960
like, like $50 million.
Wow.

484
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,640
And UMG was like, we gave you
that money, you signed the deal,

485
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,160
we gave you $1,000,000 advance
and you have not recouped, you

486
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,800
have not earned back the money.
So you took that money upfront

487
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,560
and we have kept everything else
because?

488
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:11,880
Wow.
So it's.

489
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,840
It's kind of like a loan system,
not it's not a bank loan, it's

490
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:15,880
kind of.
Like sure, sure.

491
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,320
So I know people I know, I know
some I know, I know people that

492
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,040
are in the commercial mortgage
industry that the same thing

493
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:25,560
that they say their salary
quote, UN quote is really a loan

494
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,280
from the bank until they close
deal and then they have to pay

495
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:29,800
back their salary.
So you want to actually,

496
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,000
hypothetically as low of a
salary as possible because you

497
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,560
don't, you don't really care
about, you know, you want you,

498
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,200
you're waiting for that deal,
you know, and so, and then

499
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,440
you'll pay back whenever you pay
back.

500
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,040
But, but you know, at the
moment, you know, you get by

501
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:43,000
exactly.
Yeah.

502
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,400
I, I, I did a podcast to the
with a gentleman.

503
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,680
I forgot his name now, but he
wrote a book called the Economic

504
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,040
History of the Grateful Dead.
And he was able to and he was

505
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,880
able to just tracking their
receipts and just going through

506
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,800
their books was able to track
their their success.

507
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,440
And they were kind of known as
as a touring band.

508
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:09,280
What do you think of the touring
industry as its bounce back from

509
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,760
COVID in recent years?
Are you hopeful for it?

510
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,160
Do you think that it's going
strong still?

511
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,720
You think that there's anomalies
that people go out for but

512
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,640
generally don't really care?
What's your feel about it?

513
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,360
Well.
I mean, you know, the touring is

514
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:24,120
certainly bounced back post
COVID.

515
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,360
I mean, what I'm concerned
primarily, and I'm not the only

516
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:29,320
one, is like, is this the ticket
prices are so expensive.

517
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,120
Insane.
And you know, you know, I know

518
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:36,520
my first show was for sure I saw
was cardi business and Nash in

519
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,920
like 198485 and I think the
ticket was 12 bucks.

520
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,040
Now granted again, so my, my
ticket 85 is my $12.00 ticket 85

521
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,360
does not account to $500 and
2026.

522
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:50,120
Like there's, there's a lot of
things happening and, and I, I

523
00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:52,840
know how, I know how the, I know
how this works.

524
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,120
And I know there's a lot of
people taking a cut, you know,

525
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,920
But as, as you know, what I,
what I, what I think most people

526
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,360
don't realize is that as artists
don't make that much money on

527
00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:05,920
the on the record side anymore.
They're, they're, they're, they

528
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:11,520
are, they're trying to make up
that deficit on the on the live

529
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:12,760
side again.
And that's fine.

530
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,920
You know, I, I have lots of
students who go see shows all

531
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,520
the time and I'm like, how do
you afford this?

532
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,720
I'd barely go to see industry
because I I, I.

533
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,600
Can't go.
I see cover bands.

534
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,120
I see local cover bands now
instead.

535
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:24,960
Pretty.
Much, you know, and I and I

536
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,120
can't as, as much as I'd like to
see some, you know, there's a

537
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:31,560
few, a few like Living Legend.
I just see I'm like, I'm not,

538
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,240
they're not worth spending me
having me spend $1000 on it.

539
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:36,520
I was like, that's just not
happening.

540
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,400
And you know, I can also.
And then as someone who's also

541
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,560
worked in the in the touring
side, I like, I saw somebody

542
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:42,880
search for free.
I'm kind of like I don't want to

543
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,000
pay for any shows anymore
because I suffer.

544
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:48,520
Yeah, and.
And, and you know, and so I, I,

545
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,800
I would rather go see I'm, I'm
not a huge fan of cover bands,

546
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,280
but that's a that's a whole
other thing.

547
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:54,800
I'd but like.
I'd rather go see a local

548
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,800
position do doing their thing
and and give.

549
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,440
Them too I love, I love live
live, live local musicians.

550
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,600
Yeah, yeah.
So, so yeah, yeah, yeah, it is

551
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,480
hopeful, you know, and obviously
there's, there's the, there's

552
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,920
the, the, the, the case against
Live Nation just went to the

553
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,040
jury or is about, is about to go
to the jewelry and we'll see

554
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,880
what happens.
You know, Ticketmaster's not

555
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,320
they're, they're not, I mean
they're not, they're not Saints.

556
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,640
And, you know, neither, neither
them nor Live Nation are Saints,

557
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,040
but they're also not the entire
enemy.

558
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,360
The a lot of the artists are
complicit in, in these, in these

559
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:21,640
fees and the, and the ticket
prices.

560
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,160
The, the artist says the price,
right.

561
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,080
The artist I need, I mean, it's,
it's, it is the math is very

562
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,080
basic in some ways.
And if I can make it really

563
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,840
reductionist, it's like, OK, the
artist says I need to have

564
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,560
$1,000,000 from free for my
night.

565
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,480
OK, great.
And so then the promoter says,

566
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,360
we take this arena and we say we
divide the, how many seats are

567
00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:40,440
there by, by the, by what the
artist wants.

568
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,400
And then and that's sort of how
we get to the ticket price.

569
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,240
So that as the higher the fees,
the the higher, the higher, the,

570
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,280
the higher the, the, the, the
artists.

571
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,600
Like then you say, well, that
goes, you know that.

572
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:54,680
So that goes into the ticket
price.

573
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,760
Obviously, you know, if when you
go see a show, like I often

574
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,120
reference Travis Scott did the
astral world tour a couple years

575
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:04,560
ago, like he had a Ferris wheel
on stage, right, So there was a

576
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,320
lot of there was a lot of shit
on stage.

577
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,080
Like this is insane, right, Like
they spent a lot of money and

578
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,800
brought up a circus like
atmosphere, right, You like so

579
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,680
there's a lot of money in that.
But when you go see an artist is

580
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,160
like again, like again, you
know, I know you're obviously

581
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,280
famous Springsteen, like
Springsteen plays a long time,

582
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:20,640
right?
But like, it's pretty, it's a

583
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,560
fairly no fields production,
right?

584
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,440
Because it's just some matrons.
And like, again, that nothing

585
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,320
wrong with that, you know, but
like, but like, and, and not

586
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,280
that that doesn't cost money,
but like if you just go see a

587
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,480
system and stand on stage and
there's not much happening like

588
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,320
as far as like lights or, or
pyrotechnics, like why am I

589
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,160
spending $1000 a ticket on this?
Right?

590
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:38,680
Because, because you know,
because some of that money

591
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,440
obviously goes to pay the crew
and the production cost and all

592
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,560
that stuff.
So you know it.

593
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,200
So, you know, there's, there's a
lot, there's a lot of factors

594
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,800
involved, so.
You think that if an artist in

595
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,400
order to for the artist to get
$1,000,000, let's say he sells

596
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,160
at a stadium, he needs $30 a
ticket.

597
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,080
How much do you think a consumer
is is going to end up paying at

598
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,600
the end of the day?
You think 6070 bucks and you

599
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,880
think the artist probably takes
50% of the ticket price?

600
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:04,560
The ticket?
Value.

601
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,080
I mean the the Led Zeppelin,
Peter Graham was Led Zeppelin's

602
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,840
manager.
He more or less established the

603
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,840
split is basically 9010.
So the band.

604
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,120
So whatever, whatever is made
out of show, OK, you know,

605
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,120
again, again, when you, when
you, so I'm, I'm not talking

606
00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:22,200
about some local cover band, you
know, pub or whatever.

607
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,760
It's like you, you're playing
the show that again, Madison

608
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,280
Square Garden or Newark or some
it's like the artist typical

609
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,680
gets 90% of what is what gets
comes in right?

610
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,600
So, and but that's, you know, so
there's a guarantee.

611
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,000
And then and then and then there
and then there is, you know,

612
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,320
they get they get a cut, the
artist gets a cut of of

613
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,600
obviously the merch sales, but
the house gets a cut of the

614
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,080
merch sales.
The artists also get a can also

615
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,000
get a cut of the liquor sales if
that's if that's in there as

616
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,360
well.
So that there's other ways that

617
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:53,440
artists make money.
And then so, yeah, so the, the,

618
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,920
again, the artist says I want, I
need $5,000,000 guarantee or

619
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,800
whatever.
And then as they just sort of

620
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,240
work backwards, but the artist
also again, but beyond, beyond

621
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,920
the guarantee, the artist and,
and their team make money from

622
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,240
very many different avenues as
well.

623
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,720
So again, so they're $5,000,000
my, my 7 million at the end of

624
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,960
the night or whatever.
So and again, you know, and that

625
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,280
that, does that justify the
ticket fee?

626
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:14,640
Does that justify high ticket
cost?

627
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,160
I don't think so.
I I I I I tend to agree.

628
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,760
I tend to agree.
What if I, what if I want to get

629
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,960
into the music industry And I am
not, you know, I, I, I like

630
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,920
music and I'm OK at playing, but
you know, I, I, I would love to

631
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,480
get into the, the business
component, the business side of

632
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,360
things.
And I want to and I want to deal

633
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:38,480
with the creatives, but but I'm
not on the stature of, you know,

634
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,120
performing myself.
What do you, what would you say

635
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,080
is it a typical journey for
someone in that in that

636
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,840
situation?
Well, actually, you know,

637
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,000
there's, there's so there's way
more choices.

638
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,200
So I can, I have, I have a
little thing on my desk.

639
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,360
My students come in like I want
to be in the music industry and

640
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,520
like, you know, and so they
they're like, they always know

641
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,040
they typically want to work with
a major artist.

642
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:56,720
And that's that's great.
And I said go for that.

643
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,080
But there's so many different
ways to enter into the music

644
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,800
industry.
So, you know, you know, so

645
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,280
obviously, you know, you know,
the, the more quote, UN quote

646
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,880
glamorous jobs are like maybe
being artist manager, right?

647
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,680
So, but there's one, there's one
side of that.

648
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,760
So then, you know, but there's,
there are, there are, you know,

649
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,640
I have a lot of students who
actually wind up working on

650
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,960
social media marketing for a,
for a label.

651
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,000
And they, they might, they might
be in charge or work for, you

652
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,240
know, you know, a marketing app.
You know, if you're working the

653
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,080
label, like a label might
oversee a label, Let's say a

654
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:26,840
label has 50 different artists,
right?

655
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,880
There's not 50 different people
working individually.

656
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,360
There's one, there's a team that
works with these 10 artists,

657
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,880
right?
And then, and so there's that.

658
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,920
And so they handle social media
and, and not every artist is

659
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,880
firing at the same time, right?
So like sometimes you're off,

660
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,720
sometimes you're on the road,
sometimes you're off the road.

661
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,960
So there's that, you know, there
are, I know there are people who

662
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,560
are rock'n'roll accountants,
right?

663
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,840
So all they do is handle the
accounting for, for, because

664
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,520
it's, it's, it's complex right
there.

665
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,280
And, and there's lots of funky
loopholes and ways to try to

666
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,760
waste ways to manage your money.
You know that you can, you know,

667
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,000
at a certain level you might
have, you could be a business

668
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,800
manager just managing the money
for people who are creatives,

669
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:02,000
right?
And that's a very lucrative

670
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,560
business because you're looking
at lots of 0.

671
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,760
And that there, there, there are
people who just, there are

672
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,080
people who just, they are, they
are rock'n'roll caterers, right?

673
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,560
And I use the word rock'n'roll
here.

674
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,720
Like, so like, so you go on tour
and you like, there are the

675
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,560
people go and like, they will do
bring a team of chefs with you

676
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,640
and they're, they're cooking for
the band and the crew and, you

677
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,720
know, and it could be, you know,
that again, that costs

678
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,400
significant money.
But again, that's up.

679
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:24,520
There are people who are travel
agents.

680
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,400
All they do is book tours,
right?

681
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,720
So they book the travel for the
like, you know, that's cool.

682
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,600
Yeah, it's because they, they're
out there, right?

683
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,560
Artists are quirky.
And so they're hotels that that

684
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,080
sort of cater to artists, you
know, or like, or there, you

685
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,560
know, there's that too.
And some again, some of this

686
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,440
happens, you know, you know, as
a when I was a tour manager, I

687
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,560
do a lot of this myself, but
there's also, but there are

688
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,360
people you can reach out to, you
know, so so there's all

689
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,160
different.
There's there's a lot of non

690
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,840
music jobs that actually happen
in the music industry that

691
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:51,760
people will think about.
You know, I you know, there, you

692
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,880
know, you pick, you know, you
want to own a venue, right?

693
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,880
So there's some commercial
landlord, you know, you I own, I

694
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,680
own a building and I have AI
have a recordings to do there or

695
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,400
recordings to do.
Is there right.

696
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,880
So, you know, IA friend of mine,
she makes weeds for oboes,

697
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:07,560
right?
Like, so like, you know, that's,

698
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,160
that's, that's her, that's her
that I mean, she was a music

699
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,680
faculty, but her side also was
making weeds for oboes.

700
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,880
So there I mean, so there's so
many different ways in there.

701
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,000
And as I said, most people think
about the Arias first and think

702
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,200
that's the entryway.
But I often say Taylor Swift,

703
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,960
you know, she, you know she, you
know, there was one type of

704
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,760
Swift or Beyoncé or people, you
know, they probably, they

705
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,280
probably employ indirect,
directly at least a dozen people

706
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:31,920
and indirectly thousands of
people.

707
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,320
Sure.
Because, because, because,

708
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,880
because of the way the money
flows.

709
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,400
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, so I, I teach high school

710
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,160
English.
I tell my students this all the

711
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,520
time.
Like they're like, oh, well, you

712
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:43,800
know, like the love
entertainment.

713
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,520
I love movies, I love music.
I'm like, well, I can't, you

714
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:46,520
know, I'm never going to be an
actor.

715
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,120
I'm like, dude, you don't need
to be an actor, man.

716
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,760
Like I, I, I, I interviewed A
gentleman named Joel, Joel High,

717
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,280
who's music supervisor.
How cool.

718
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,000
And yeah, and, and, and his job
is one of the coolest freaking

719
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,200
jobs in the world.
Any, any.

720
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,880
And and it's he, he, he will
either deal with creating the

721
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,680
score or he'll deal with getting
the rights to particular songs.

722
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,440
And, you know, and a lot of
times artists will demand to see

723
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,720
the scenes of the movies before
they, before they prove to be

724
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,960
like, I don't want to make sure
that that my song is not being

725
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,440
used in a crappy movie.
Correct.

726
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,200
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, Music, music supervision

727
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,760
is a big deal.
That's called music sync.

728
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,360
That's that's called sync that
you need.

729
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,840
Like so if you get your song
synced, which means it the the

730
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,360
music is synced with with, with,
with a, with a motion picture

731
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,280
wagon.
But there's film television on

732
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,680
online, right?
So, yeah.

733
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,240
And, and there, and there that
is basically the Wild West

734
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,840
because there is no, there's no,
there's no, there's so for, for

735
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,920
recordings is what's called the
statutory rate to get paid.

736
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,400
But in the in the sink world.
So if you want.

737
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,280
So, you know, I often use like
the James Bond films as, as the

738
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,000
examples because like, so you
want to so you know, I know

739
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,960
Adele's done to Billy eyelash of
Paul McCartney.

740
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,760
There's been a lot of a lot of
people done these, these big

741
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,040
theme films and they so you get
a fleet, you get a flat things

742
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,920
like, Hey, Adele, we want, we're
going to give you $1,000,000

743
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,320
just to record this song, song.
And then you can get money every

744
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,960
time it gets played, you know,
everything, every theater.

745
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,680
And then, then there's different
rights for if it goes on

746
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:07,760
television, there's different
rights.

747
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,920
It goes on DVD And, and, and
because, and because there's no

748
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,760
such story, right?
You can, it can be a very, very,

749
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,560
very lucrative payday, right.
You know, again, it's, you know,

750
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,760
I, I have a lot of a lot of
students who are musicians like,

751
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,120
oh, I want to get to syncolizes.
It's like great, but you have to

752
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,560
create relationships.
It's that you don't just like

753
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,560
send, send this on to somebody
random is hey, place my song in,

754
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,280
you know, in, in certain name of
TV show.

755
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,680
It, it doesn't work that way.
I mean, it could, but it's free

756
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,120
rare.
So but yeah, that's cool.

757
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,480
Yeah.
So music supervision again.

758
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,800
And, and, and if you have a
track, if you have a success,

759
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,040
successful track record of like
getting, you know, a hit hit

760
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,760
show on an insert, you know,
whatever state, whatever the

761
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,600
streaming platform or Netflix or
HBO.

762
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,000
And like, then all of a sudden
you become a very hot property.

763
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,480
And then it's because you you're
able to negotiate the deals

764
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,880
because it it there's a lot of
negotiation going on for that.

765
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,200
And, and again, you know, you'd
know, you need to know you as

766
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,960
the artist need to know what the
going rate is.

767
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,080
And there is no going rate,
which is, which makes it very

768
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,480
challenging.
So you could say, oh man, I, I,

769
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,080
they took my song for 50,000
bucks.

770
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,000
Like that's great.
And like, but the supervisors

771
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,160
like we would have given you
100,000, but you didn't ask for

772
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,360
it.
So like so and so.

773
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,719
It's really hard.
That's always, I feel like

774
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,360
that's always been the artist's
problem.

775
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,960
That's the artist's problem is
that you're throwing them in

776
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,040
tow.
I mean, I think it's just the

777
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,760
problem of the innocent versus
the institutions is usually what

778
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:21,920
it is.
I mean, you can make you the

779
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,080
same argument about colleges.
For a lot of people, you know,

780
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,600
you're throwing them in and
having them sign up for $250,000

781
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,239
of debt before they even know
what they're talking about.

782
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:29,679
True.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

783
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,480
Again, going back to the whole
individual opaque.

784
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,880
And again, so a lot of these
deals are especially in the sink

785
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,159
world, a lot of or even even
recording deals, right, they're

786
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:39,960
all these are proprietary
things.

787
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:42,120
And so these are not public
documents.

788
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,280
And so, and so if you're not in
the, if you don't move in those

789
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,480
circles, right, it's in the sink
world, then you're likely going

790
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,600
to undersell your undersell
your, your first, the first time

791
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,719
you get a big sink deal, you
likely going to undersell it.

792
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,400
And again, you know, as long,
but if, if you are happy.

793
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,280
So hey, listen, I've got this
thing, someone gave me 10 grand

794
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,240
and I made $10,000 in one day.
I I mean, forget about how much

795
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:05,520
it took, how long it took to
make it like that's a pretty

796
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:06,920
good payday.
I think anybody would take a

797
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,520
happy, take a $10,000 for one
day.

798
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,200
You look like, and, and, and
with the potential of making

799
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:11,880
money on on the wealthy side
too.

800
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,880
So yeah, and you earn.
And it was really cool, though,

801
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,400
because I was even thinking the
example that you gave about

802
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,680
writing a song for the for a
movie, right?

803
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,960
Like, I think was it Shakira
that did Zootopia?

804
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so you're saying that the

805
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,760
structure of the deal would be
that we're going to pay you X

806
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,240
amount to record it.
And then whenever people buy

807
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:34,200
this Zootopia record, you know,
or have physical vinyl and

808
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,800
Barnes and Noble, you get XY and
Z cut.

809
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,200
And every time that it's
streamed and it's licensed down

810
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,400
on Disney Plus or Hulu, whatever
it is, you're going to make

811
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:41,840
another cut there.
Cool.

812
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,360
And then, but then there's also
the and I've heard I've heard

813
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,880
stories or interviews with
people maybe like, you know,

814
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,960
they're an artist.
And then, you know, they had

815
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,720
mild success and then they just
disappeared for 10 years, kept

816
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:54,320
on living their lives.
And someone knocked on the door

817
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,560
and said, Hey, you want your
song for XY and Z movie or TV

818
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:58,840
show?
And all of a sudden their entire

819
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,240
career just jumped back, You
know, comes jump started.

820
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,920
Well, yeah, so that's Kate Bush
was running up a hill, right?

821
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,000
You know that if it first
Stranger Things, right, so

822
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,120
highly respected, incredibly
talented artist, right, sort of

823
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,280
in the very doesn't do much in
the public eye, right.

824
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,440
And then that song, you know, it
gets gets landed Stranger

825
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:22,880
things.
So like, so getting a song and

826
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,440
stranger things, I would have
been like that again.

827
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:25,720
That's like almost a golden
ticket.

828
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,920
So and so that's and and that
song went back on the charts

829
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,760
and, you know, and, and you
know, and she again, if

830
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,760
depending how, what and how much
she owns of that song, I hope

831
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,840
with all of it, she could have
had a very lucrative payday.

832
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,480
You know, the same thing
happened with the that TikTok

833
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,520
video with in dreams by the
Fleetwood Mac in the years ago

834
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,920
about the guy that album didn't
need that song and album didn't

835
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:50,880
need any more help.
But like, it went back in the

836
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,160
charts again, right?
I'm so excited when people, when

837
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,520
I saw it popping up on social
media again and I was like, I'm

838
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,520
so happy that this is making
another round, you know?

839
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,880
Right, Yeah, yeah.
You know, I remember telling my

840
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,840
telling my students, you know,
again, going back to the K Bush

841
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,120
thing, like again, you know,
some of the songs in that I only

842
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:09,920
watch, we only watch a couple of
episodes of Stranger things.

843
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,960
But like a lot of the songs that
they played, like they were

844
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,040
really obscure songs in the 80s
to begin with.

845
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,240
And, and you know, and I,
somebody who grew up in the 80s

846
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:18,440
again, not that I, I didn't
obviously wasn't, I don't, I'm

847
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,280
not all knowing about the 80s,
but I was like, she was known,

848
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,000
but that's these were like these
were left of center songs,

849
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,480
right?
These were not pop hits.

850
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,440
So I'm glad that someone found
her song and said it worked

851
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,400
perfectly for that move, for
that, for that, for that series.

852
00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:34,360
Yeah, yeah.
And so people's careers can all

853
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,840
of a sudden, you know, the the
it's what's called mailbox

854
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,840
money.
So a song that you recorded

855
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,600
years ago, someone decides to
put into a movie and then all of

856
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,480
a sudden you're like, oh, damn.
I was like, what did.

857
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,120
Oh, cool.
And and IA friend of mine who

858
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,520
was a rapper and lives in North
Carolina, like he said one of

859
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,960
his songs somehow got and gotten
got included in American Idol

860
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,520
like as one of the as as as a
bumper, like one of the IT was

861
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,000
played like during I was like,
like, like leading up to a

862
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,000
commercial break.
And he's like, I have no idea.

863
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,640
He's like the checks just
started rolling in.

864
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,960
Wow.
We'll have no idea who did this,

865
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,600
but he's like, I'm very thankful
to them.

866
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:11,960
Incredible, incredible, so cool.
Do you know anything about, And

867
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,360
then I want to, I want to ask
maybe this last topic and then I

868
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,680
want to switch to a little bit
of, about rock'n'roll and actual

869
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,360
the music history.
But I feel like it'd be, I'd be

870
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,080
crazy not to try to talk about
the company's Spotify or Apple

871
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,440
Music or these big streaming
platforms like YouTube Music and

872
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,600
Amazon.
How do those business models

873
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:35,440
work?
And, and I, I don't even

874
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,880
understand a really how they
work very much.

875
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,040
I've read a book or two about
Spotify, the company.

876
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,840
I don't know if I completely
understood all the details and I

877
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,120
don't entirely understand, you
know, they had a lot of like

878
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,840
artists rebellions against them
too over the years.

879
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,880
Can you maybe talk a little bit
about that if you're familiar

880
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:56,960
with it?
Yeah, so streaming right is.

881
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,880
Stream from Limewire No no no,
no no no.

882
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,400
It goes way back.
So stream radio is a streaming

883
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,360
technology, OK, right, Right.
So you know, and you know, as

884
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,720
when I teach the history
streaming, I I realize it's like

885
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,680
it doesn't Spotify did not
invent streaming, right?

886
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,640
The radio is a streaming device.
There's basically there's on

887
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:22,200
demand streaming and and and
then there is the the the phrase

888
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:23,560
left knee.
But like, so basically like

889
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,960
there is radio is there is
interactive and non interactive.

890
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,400
That's it.
So, so non interactive is like

891
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,680
the radio like you cannot the
song, they just play the song

892
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,000
and you can request a song, but
like they just, it just plays

893
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,040
and you just have no choice.
Interactive is like, I get to

894
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,120
pick the song.
So Spotify and most streaming

895
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,480
services operate on either one
of those models, you know, but

896
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,040
there's also, there's also
SiriusXM, right?

897
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,400
And there's Pandora, so like
Pandora and you know, you can

898
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,800
interact with Pandora and have
it change.

899
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,840
So and but Sirius SiriusXM is
also not interactive like you,

900
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,640
you cannot suggest a song.
It just they just play stuff for

901
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,360
you.
And so and all those, and of

902
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,960
those, all those different, all
those different mediums and the

903
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,880
way and they also they all pay
out at different rates.

904
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:08,560
So, so get so right, right, so
obviously.

905
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,800
Napster paved the way for what
became Spotify, right?

906
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,200
So Napster short lived and
Napster did not invent the MP3.

907
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,960
They were invented by these,
these brainiac German dudes who

908
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,240
had worked a long time, what was
called psycho acoustics.

909
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,920
And they eventually they
inherited this.

910
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,520
They they inherited this one guy
inherited this, inherited the

911
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,040
problem from his from his
mentor.

912
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:30,840
And they cracked the code and
basically figured out how to,

913
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,560
how to compress these files and,
and to make them sound, just

914
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,920
make them, it was transportable,
make the fall small enough, but

915
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,600
still sound, still sound enough.
And so that that happened and

916
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,080
they, they developed the MP3
technology, which again, which

917
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,800
allowed Napster to actually go
go crazy because they developed

918
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,160
the platform to share those
things.

919
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,280
And so then Apple comes in and
Apple says, you know, I mean,

920
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,680
there were numerous, there were
numerous streaming platforms in,

921
00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:56,640
in around the 20s, around 2000,
right?

922
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,160
Owned by different labels and
people, you know, most consumers

923
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,280
don't give a shit what label
your artist is on, right?

924
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,800
They just want the music.
And so all the, and then Apple

925
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:05,920
came in and said, we're going to
solve that.

926
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,480
And we have Apple through iTunes
and then and then and then.

927
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,640
Individual songs.
I remember a dollar, a song or

928
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,520
whatever.
Right now that's a song and

929
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,600
everyone's like, oh, Apple
solves our problem, right?

930
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,960
And so, and then and then, and
then what 2011 is when Spotify

931
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,560
launches in the US, if they
start, if they start in

932
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,960
Scandinavia and and Sweden in
2009, roughly, Spotify starts

933
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,080
off as like they don't know what
they're going to sell.

934
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:30,840
They're basically, they're
basically an advertising

935
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,040
platform that that's what
Daniel, like the background is,

936
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,960
is like it's there, it's
advertising.

937
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,720
And they didn't, they didn't
know what they were going to do.

938
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,520
And they kind of stumbled upon
music as a thing and they, and

939
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,120
they realized that that
technology would work.

940
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,040
And so again, it didn't really
matter.

941
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,120
It was almost like a widget,
like we don't care what we sell.

942
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,680
I bought this platform and
figured out and they figured out

943
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,920
our music.
And then I was taking a while

944
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,120
to, to get the licensing deals
and going on.

945
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,280
And you know, and, and then at
the, but also at the same time,

946
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,640
right, that's when labels were
really suffering.

947
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:01,080
They, they're sort of like the
CD had CDs had declined.

948
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,640
And I know this, I know that
labels blame piracy, but I don't

949
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,600
buy that the math, the math this
doesn't add up.

950
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,760
Yes, You know, again, what NAFTA
did was illegal, right?

951
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,440
Again, that at the end of the
day, it was copyright.

952
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,120
They don't have, they don't own
the right, they don't have the,

953
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,240
you don't own it.
You can't give it away, right?

954
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,280
So they basically that that's
that was the that was the crux

955
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,200
of of what that was brought down
the house, brought down their,

956
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,080
their, their they're they're
short on the empire.

957
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,480
So again, label, yes.
Did labels lose money?

958
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,680
Absolutely.
Is it the same as the figure

959
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,560
that they that they're recording
industry association of America,

960
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,000
Are those are those accurate?
Probably not that.

961
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,960
I don't think it's anywhere near
that anyway.

962
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,360
So so so the labels are happy to
have Spotify and Apple or Apple

963
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,080
and Spotify like sort of solve
their issue of how do we get

964
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,000
people to to to to listen to
more music.

965
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,880
So you thought?
So initially they were, they

966
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,280
thought it was like a more
extended marketing opportunity.

967
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,920
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, and you know, and,

968
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,360
and yes, you alluded to that a
lot of artists are very upset

969
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,320
with Spotify and they are then
that it is legit, but they

970
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,120
should be the the artist should
be upset with the record labels

971
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,480
because the record labels are
the ones that signed the deals,

972
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:07,880
right?
So why would they upset with

973
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,240
Spotify?
Can you can you clarify?

974
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,520
Yeah, sure.
Because because the, the the

975
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,360
payouts are very small, right.
Again, as you said that it's,

976
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,720
you know, 0.000 whatever, right
So per stream.

977
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:24,800
So a couple things right.
So that is entirely true.

978
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,120
The payout of the smonic and
there is no set rate Apple and

979
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,600
Spotify and Amazon, they don't
pay any per rate.

980
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,640
It's not a it's not a pro rata
model.

981
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:37,280
They they the the system is very
complicated and the the the the

982
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,000
numbers that people use are
averages.

983
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:44,840
So, so, but the one, the one
thing that is good is so in the

984
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,680
old model, you buy a record,
right?

985
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,120
So you don't see, like I have, I
have thousands of CDs around my,

986
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,280
around my office and like, you
buy a record and it's 10 bucks,

987
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:54,760
right?
So back when I first started

988
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:56,800
buying CDs that were $18.00,
right?

989
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,800
So, and so that's what it was.
We'll use 10 bucks.

990
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,800
So I bought the record and it
was your record.

991
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,360
And so you got some kind of
royalty for my, and I, I, I can

992
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,720
listen to the album a million
times, right?

993
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,800
And like, but you only got paid
once, right?

994
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,320
Right.
So the bonus of of the the

995
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,360
current system is is that.
Interesting.

996
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,120
Cool.
Now every time I listen to a

997
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,480
song on whatever platform you
someone's getting paid by the

998
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,120
artist getting a trickle, right,
But again, you know, but legacy

999
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,120
artists, right.
So again, someone, some my

1000
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,360
legacy artist is someone, either
either they're the band is no

1001
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,600
longer because someone's dead or
they, they broke up or, or what

1002
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,440
all the above, right?
So that there are still money

1003
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,640
flowing into the catalog of The
Beatles, right?

1004
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,600
So we know that or Michael
Jackson or Sam Cooke, whoever,

1005
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,800
because the music's out there,
right?

1006
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,600
And so, so whoever, whoever owns
those rights are still making

1007
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,520
money from that catalog.
But again, which, which, and so

1008
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,520
that, but that is a good thing,
right?

1009
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,160
But it was, but it was the small
payouts that people were very

1010
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:57,680
upset at.
Like are they looking at like my

1011
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:03,400
song was streamed 1000 times and
I literally made 42 bucks, you

1012
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:08,800
know, and you know, but if my,
but if 10,000 people bought my

1013
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,400
album as independent artists,
that's a, that's a, that's a,

1014
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,280
that's an impressive #10,000 no
matter what.

1015
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,080
I mean I I have I have some
students like they they get like

1016
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,600
30,000 streams a year, which is
again.

1017
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:20,760
It's a lot.
Yeah, it is.

1018
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,680
I mean, they're not making
they're, they're not making any

1019
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,800
money from that.
But that's that's but like

1020
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,400
that's an impressive number.
I'm like you're the.

1021
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,640
Audience of 30,000.
That is exceptional, you know.

1022
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,840
Someone who lives in Bergen
County or somewhere or like

1023
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,800
that's like, holy shit, that's
cool 30,000 people love my

1024
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,640
music.
That's awesome, right?

1025
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,840
But like then you look at your
old streaming like, oh, I made,

1026
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,840
I made $1000, right?
Which is, you know, you can't,

1027
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,440
which is, that's not even a car
payment, right?

1028
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,040
So.
If I got 30, if I got 30,000

1029
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,160
streams, can I go to a venue and
say I would love to play?

1030
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,080
Here's here's evidence that that
that, that, that, that people

1031
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:55,600
listen to my music and that it's
good music.

1032
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:01,160
Yeah, I mean, so yes, you can.
I mean, venues want to know not

1033
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,200
so much about how many people
listen to your music is how many

1034
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,280
people come to see you.
So I mean, you know, you need to

1035
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,960
say I can go.
You know, when you again, when

1036
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,080
you when you get beyond like the
local bar level and you're like

1037
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,520
I I'm I'm going to move into
because you know, I know the the

1038
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:14,960
competition kind of shift a
little bit.

1039
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,520
But like, so there are there are
venues that have there are,

1040
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,960
there are there are spaces that
have music and there are music

1041
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,600
venues, right?
So they're different.

1042
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,600
So the bar, the the restaurant
bar that has a band in the back

1043
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:27,160
is not necessarily a music
venue, right?

1044
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,800
The band is there for ambiance.
So when you start moving into

1045
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,440
the actual venues that like they
are, the primary focus is music,

1046
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,080
but they want to know how many
people are you going to bring to

1047
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,360
me?
And and you just say, yeah, I

1048
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,400
played these shows around this
area and I have ticket counts.

1049
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,320
If it's a hard ticket, means
there's like ticket sales or you

1050
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,200
know, like there was averaging
24 people a night, right?

1051
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,960
And again, and, and that's,
that's what people want to know

1052
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,560
at, at for, for concert, for
venues.

1053
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,480
They want to know those hard
numbers of again, yes, having,

1054
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,400
having, having streaming numbers
can support that.

1055
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,040
And you can artist can use those
numbers, say, Oh, if I got, I

1056
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:05,800
have 100,000 monthly listeners,
right?

1057
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,880
And then I know they're, they're
in Buffalo, they're in, they're

1058
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,280
in Detroit, right?
You can dig down there.

1059
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,800
There are, there are there are
platforms that that will look at

1060
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,000
this and will to get get that,
get those analytics and you can

1061
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,120
then you can say I'm going to
play some shows in there because

1062
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,120
this is this is where my fans
are, right?

1063
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,560
And and that goes back to my to
the virality thing.

1064
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,640
So like if you have, if you have
a million fans, but there's ten,

1065
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:28,480
it's only it's only 10 people
here in temple.

1066
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:29,840
No one's going to come to your
show.

1067
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,800
You need to have a critical
mass.

1068
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,480
As a as a case in point, my wife
and I went to a band called

1069
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:40,200
Pigeons playing Ping Pong, which
is a funk, cool band, jam band.

1070
00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:43,840
I I went we went to a venue in
Fort Lauderdale that probably is

1071
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,960
a 500 person venue I see now on
Spotify.

1072
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:52,200
I pulled up they have 122 and a
.2000 monthly listeners.

1073
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:52,960
OK, that's great.
Yeah.

1074
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,720
So. 120 two 123,000 listeners,
listeners and there's and

1075
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:02,600
they're and they're selling out
500 venue seats like that.

1076
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,360
I mean, that's, that's not a
it's not a it's not it's not

1077
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,040
even close to 1 to 1.
You know, one to 1/2 to 1/3 to

1078
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,960
1.
You need to rack up a lot of

1079
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,720
listeners to kind of sell
anything it seems like.

1080
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,080
Yeah, yeah.
But in up again, but like a band

1081
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,480
like that, I'm not from with him
like that like they're probably

1082
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,360
they don't have day jobs I would
guess, right.

1083
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,960
So if you're getting, you get
100,000 listeners, again,

1084
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:25,960
depending how big the band is,
right?

1085
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,440
You know, and again, keep in
mind that's just on Spotify,

1086
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,040
right?
So, you know, there, there are

1087
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,320
numerous platforms and you know,
there are platforms, you know,

1088
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,320
and you know that you can be,
you can be making money, you can

1089
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,880
have, you can have a fan base in
another country, right?

1090
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,240
And you know, and, and you know,
and like, you know, Deezer's big

1091
00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:42,120
and I know mostly there's, I
mean, there, you know, there's,

1092
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,360
there, there, there are
streaming service in Asia,

1093
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,840
right?
10 cent has their own, their own

1094
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,040
streaming platform.
So again, so you know, it's like

1095
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,240
it's so you have so you might be
having if you have 100,000

1096
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,640
listeners on numerous platforms
and again, depending, depending

1097
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,120
how owns the rights of music and
you're and you're doing, you

1098
00:48:58,120 --> 00:48:59,560
know, you're you're playing a
couple.

1099
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,240
That even makes the point even
that makes the point even

1100
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:03,520
stronger that there's even less
of a correlation between the

1101
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,120
amount of streams you have in
butts in the Sea.

1102
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,560
You know that I mean, because if
they're getting 100,000 on

1103
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,880
Spotify, 200,000 on Apple X
amount on YouTube, which is

1104
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,160
probably a lot more than both of
them and like and like so that

1105
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,840
now you're at, let's say, you
know, half a million, you know,

1106
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,120
monthly listings or more.
That means that for half a

1107
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,000
million listeners, you you're
selling out 500 seats a night.

1108
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,440
I mean, like, listen, you're
obviously again, you have this,

1109
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,280
this is your full time job.
You don't have a day job, but it

1110
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,000
shows how hard you have to work.
It shows how the numbers are.

1111
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,200
Yeah, yeah, you know, and again,
going to the live side, the idea

1112
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,480
is you want to, you want to sell
out every show.

1113
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:39,600
So, you know, I mean, you know,
the, the some of the artists I

1114
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,280
work for, like, you know, we,
the idea is like, I'd rather

1115
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:46,480
play 2/2 shows and the same,
same venue two different nights,

1116
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,800
then go to a bigger venue and
then all of a sudden have it be

1117
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,880
half be have it be maybe even a
quarter MP again there.

1118
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:54,720
So there, there.
And also there's a strategy.

1119
00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:58,000
There's, you know, if you have a
booking agent and even if you

1120
00:49:58,000 --> 00:49:59,880
don't, you know, most bands are
their own booking agents.

1121
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,360
You're like, the idea is like,
yeah, we went and we sold out,

1122
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,200
whether that's 50 or 500 or
50,000, but that is a that is a

1123
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,480
huge, that's a very enticing
thing to the next level.

1124
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,760
So we did, you know, and, and
you know AEG or Live Nation,

1125
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,480
they have they own venues in
every market.

1126
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,200
Like we have our 400 seat room,
we have our 800 seat room, we

1127
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,400
have our 12 and I and you move
up right?

1128
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,440
And so, and, and, and then you
try to find the ceiling and

1129
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,680
hopefully the ceiling Hope you
know, obviously artists you

1130
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,880
know, are going to find the
ceiling, but it's a, it's a very

1131
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,560
long process.
You start it at 200, you start

1132
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,200
at then you go to 500, then you
go to 1500 up, then you go to

1133
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,360
3000 up, didn't sell up and go
back and you know, and then and

1134
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,680
you know, and then you keep
going back And so and, and, and,

1135
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:37,520
and you're trying to maintain
sell off because that's that is

1136
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,120
way more important than saying I
played 1000 seats women had 400

1137
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,880
people than saying I played A400
seats women had 400 people.

1138
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,200
That's that's way better.
Sure, sure, sure.

1139
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:48,520
Really interesting.
Really, really, really cool

1140
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,080
stuff.
I thank you so much.

1141
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:55,880
By the way, I just want to say
you are a are a freaking an

1142
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,960
incredible source of information
and you're breaking all this

1143
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,480
down really, really beautifully
and you're hitting out of the

1144
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:03,080
park as far as I'm concerned.
Thank you so much.

1145
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,640
It's awesome.
Let's talk about music now.

1146
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,120
You mean?
The song itself you mean we have

1147
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:10,400
been talking about.
We haven't been talking about.

1148
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,720
You mean the songs itself?
I mean, the songs itself for a

1149
00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:14,520
little bit, yeah.
Or maybe even a little bit of

1150
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,320
the history.
I'm really interested in the

1151
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,040
background and the roots of a
lot of this stuff.

1152
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,920
Rock is one of the genres that
there's so much to talk about.

1153
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:29,440
Rock is a genre that for me,
I've noticed has pockets of

1154
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,120
manifestations.
Like you have Laurel Canyon

1155
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,280
rock, you have San Francisco
rock, you have Jersey rock, you

1156
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,000
know, you have Alabama rock.
You got, you know, Southern,

1157
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:43,560
Southern rock in general, that
whole style, you know, and they

1158
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,640
all, they're all so dramatically
different, but they all kind of

1159
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,040
embody, you know, they all
embodied by rock.

1160
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,000
What do you what do you think
about that and how?

1161
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,360
What do you think rock is at its
core and why?

1162
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,240
Why there's so many different
manifestations of it?

1163
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:08,680
So, so you mentioned the word
southern rock and as Greg Allman

1164
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,320
and once famously said, he's
like Southern rock is a

1165
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:16,640
redundant because most of Brock
comes from the South, right?

1166
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:21,040
So so we we as humans like
labels, right?

1167
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:25,880
We need we genres help us to
figure out what things are.

1168
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,480
Again, the analogy I often use
is go to imagine going to a

1169
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:34,080
supermarket where the food was
not organized by type, right?

1170
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,120
It was just like, it's all out
there, right?

1171
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,400
So there's no cereal aisle like
to suck some cereals over here

1172
00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:43,640
and some cereals over there and
you're like that it's confusing

1173
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,160
and go to Target, pick it like
it's it, it's because we said we

1174
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:47,720
have we like to we like to
compartmentalize,

1175
00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:50,680
compartmentalize things like
David Letterman's top ten list.

1176
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,720
We like things neatly organized.
That's, that's just a human

1177
00:52:53,720 --> 00:52:58,840
characteristic.
And so as, as music expanded,

1178
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:00,400
right, music's been going on
for, I don't know, I don't know,

1179
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,520
centuries, right, thousands of
years, right, millennia.

1180
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,480
And so as you know, if we look
at the start of rock music

1181
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,800
arbitrarily pick 1954, which is
when Elvis decides to go in and

1182
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,760
make a make a half 1/2 assed
recording at Sun Records for his

1183
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,960
mom.
And then Sam Phillips benches

1184
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:20,360
make a note of that guy.
He's pretty good.

1185
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,000
And then about a year later he
comes back and then and he

1186
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:24,240
records.
That's all right, Mama.

1187
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,400
And then and then and then he
blows up.

1188
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,280
But Elvis didn't start that
right.

1189
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,400
He was influenced by R&B.
And so as this music develops

1190
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,480
and it's not quite R&B, it's not
quite country, it was actually,

1191
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:37,480
it was actually called
rockabilly.

1192
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,400
So, you know, Elvis was a
basically a rockabilly artist

1193
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,080
for about a nanosecond.
And then, you know, and he was,

1194
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:44,920
I mean that that's what it was.
He was called the Hillbilly Cat.

1195
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:49,880
That was his first nickname.
And then and then, and then that

1196
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,000
music becomes a little bit, it's
not quite country, it's not

1197
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,960
quite R&B, but there's obviously
there is, there's white southern

1198
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,240
roots, there's black southern
roots.

1199
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,240
You know, there is there, there,
you know, there's, there's the

1200
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,280
urban urban, there's northern
urban appeal by somebody

1201
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,080
borders, you know, umm, you
know, takes music off from the

1202
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:07,560
Delta.
And then basically, you know,

1203
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,960
very and very productive.
He goes off to Chicago and trade

1204
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:12,640
acoustic guitar.
There's nothing to ever happen

1205
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,240
in Chicago.
Trade trades in his acoustic

1206
00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:17,600
guitar for his electric guitar.
So we have this so, but then we

1207
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,080
have like these competing box,
but it's all of the similar,

1208
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:20,840
right?
And then, you know, then

1209
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,040
obviously you have chess records
and and people like Chuck Berry

1210
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,640
who did start writing songs like
Chuck Berry, you know, again, a

1211
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:28,640
brilliant guitar player, but
also like a, you know, highly

1212
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,160
regarded songwriter, right?
He's I got, I think he you know,

1213
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:36,240
so and then and then and that
music influences the next

1214
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:37,960
generation.
So you can so you've got Chuck

1215
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,200
Berry, you've got Buddy Holly,
you've got Elvis, you got Little

1216
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,320
Richard, you know, you got
Laverne Baker, you know, and you

1217
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:47,160
know the you know, the the queen
of R&B, you know, for more or

1218
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:51,360
less, you know, sustains
Atlantic records.

1219
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,880
Again, early Atlantic records
was an early, early pioneer.

1220
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,360
And you know, of course there's
Ray Charles and then you have

1221
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,120
some do up groups and then and
then it then obviously people

1222
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,240
spread then as as radio, right,
which was the predominant media

1223
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,200
at the time, right?
It's that helps broad mildly

1224
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,320
broadcast across the across the
across the the country.

1225
00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:15,400
And obviously there's only four
or five TV stations, you know,

1226
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,720
and then as artists are
appearing on Ed Sullivan show

1227
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,640
and then, you know, obviously
The Beatles in 64, you've got,

1228
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,360
you know, so, so people, so
people in all these different

1229
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:25,800
pockets.
So it's Laurel Canyon or it's,

1230
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:27,920
you know, or it was.
It's not that people move to

1231
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:29,480
Laurel.
It's not, it's not people in

1232
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:30,680
Laurel Canyon.
It's people move to Laurel

1233
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:33,200
Canyon, right, right.
And then you got you got

1234
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:35,800
teenagers in the South,
teenagers N hearing this music

1235
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:37,080
going, Oh, that's what I want
right.

1236
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,040
Then there's also the social
aspect to it too, was so this is

1237
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,880
post World War 2.
So you've got these these people

1238
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,160
who are, who are baby, but
basically what we become baby

1239
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,240
boomers, right?
So they have time and leisure on

1240
00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:49,800
their hand.
They got time and money, right?

1241
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,960
So there's no, there's no longer
the threat of like there's no,

1242
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,520
there's not that we, we, there's
no economic depression, there's

1243
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,920
no instant threat of World War
2, right?

1244
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,240
You've got the Cold War looming.
And so people, people are they,

1245
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,680
you know, young people were like
teenagers, like they can get a

1246
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,120
paper route and they can go down
and they have some time and they

1247
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,160
have money to spend on record.
And then, and then record labels

1248
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:14,560
then realize we have this new
demographic we can market to.

1249
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,880
And so Rock'n'roll is marketed
specifically towards teenagers,

1250
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:20,440
right?
And, and, and, and, and you

1251
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:22,960
know, and then there's all sorts
of, there's all sorts of teenage

1252
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:24,760
movies that are like men for
teeny boppers.

1253
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,240
And so, and again, so it's all
it's, it's there's a lot of

1254
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:28,880
exploitation in a good way,
like.

1255
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,880
Dominant, predominantly white
teenagers, right?

1256
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:32,640
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, yes and yes, you know,

1257
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,360
because a lot of the.
Roots that you mentioned came

1258
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,920
from a lot of black music.
And I do want to emphasize the

1259
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,400
the Yeah, for sure.
Keep on going.

1260
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,400
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
No, no, no, no, absolutely no.

1261
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:43,000
Of course.
Right.

1262
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:44,720
So, right.
So, you know, I was, yeah, I was

1263
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,640
going to say like, obviously
then we have this incredibly

1264
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,760
racially segregated society,
right?

1265
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:51,440
And and when we could argue, we
still do.

1266
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:54,000
But, you know, and and so the
cultural side is like the

1267
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:55,160
breaking.
So, you know, you get bored

1268
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:57,880
versus brown versus Board of
Education is 54, right?

1269
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,560
Landmark civilized case, but it
doesn't really disagree.

1270
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:02,800
Yeah, 10.
Years Rock'n'roll was born too.

1271
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,760
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't really
disagree gay anything, you know,

1272
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:07,640
but there.
But the, the, you know, the one

1273
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,640
thing the the radios, the radios
are really important part of

1274
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:12,680
this because like, you know, as
people have said, like you can't

1275
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:14,400
segregate the airwaves.
Even though there were stations

1276
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,400
that were geared towards white
audiences, there were stations

1277
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:18,160
geared towards black audiences,
right.

1278
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:19,880
So but like when you turn the
radio on.

1279
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,840
You can stop listening to it.
Right, Yeah, yeah, right.

1280
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:24,600
It doesn't.
And and so and you know, and so

1281
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:28,480
you could, your parents could be
very anti this or that music,

1282
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,120
but you have a transistor radio.
You can sneak off to the beach

1283
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,040
or you can go outside to you
know, and, and and listen and

1284
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,480
you know, and your your parents
want to listen to Sinatra, but

1285
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:37,920
do you want to listen?
But do you want to listen to

1286
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:39,720
Chuck Berry or whoever, right or
vice versa?

1287
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,120
It doesn't matter, right?
So.

1288
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,280
I would love to rebel by
listening to Chuck Berry.

1289
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,200
That'd be cool to be considered
a rebel and listen to Muddy

1290
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,760
Waters.
Or, you know, like some of the

1291
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:52,840
real Blues I mean.
You know, and yeah, there

1292
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:57,160
there's definitely, there's a,
you know, an intrigue, you know,

1293
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,400
there's a little bit like, oh,
you know, white teens interested

1294
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,600
in black music, you know, Yeah.
Or as I I, you know, and or, you

1295
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,440
know, I know black, black, black
people interested in country

1296
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:08,320
music.
But the, but The thing is, it's

1297
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,200
the musics were way closer.
They were, they were always way

1298
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,280
closer than than people thought.
It wasn't that really.

1299
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:20,600
It was, you know, if, if you go
back and listen to music from

1300
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,960
the 20s by, you know, there are,
there are white artists who, who

1301
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,160
making string band music, there
are black artists making string

1302
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:28,440
band music.
And you know, it again, because

1303
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,680
we, because of the Jim Crow laws
and segregation, right, music,

1304
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,720
music is labeled hillbilly or
race music, right?

1305
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,760
And so the hillbilly development
becomes country music, right?

1306
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,440
You know, and there's, there's
basically, there's, there's like

1307
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:43,560
white vernaculars of the music
and there's, there's black and

1308
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,560
vernaculars of the music, right?
And so you get hillbilly and

1309
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:48,600
race, right?
Race eventually becomes, you

1310
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:50,880
know, R&B, which becomes
rock'n'roll, which becomes,

1311
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:53,720
which becomes, you know, and,
and a lot of times they, they

1312
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:55,880
sort of, they, they, they always
interweaving.

1313
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,160
And then sort of, and then in
the 50s when Elvis comes out and

1314
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,040
seemingly out of nowhere,
although if you know the

1315
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,520
history, like it really was out
of nowhere, it was, it was on a

1316
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,200
collision course.
It just happened to he was the

1317
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,120
one that were happened to Clive.
Again, he was the first person

1318
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,360
to make this music.
But again, because he was white

1319
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,120
and that he he had some
privileges that others didn't

1320
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:15,120
have.
Again, Elvis was really.

1321
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:18,520
Here's the manifestation of
black music in all white in a,

1322
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,240
in a, in a white world and white
community and made it popular to

1323
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,160
a degree that I think, you know,
wouldn't have.

1324
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,040
I mean, you could, you could
have, you could say that someone

1325
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,920
else could have made black music
popular, you know, as popular

1326
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,520
but like Elvis did at the end of
the day, you know, like.

1327
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:33,440
Yeah, yeah.
He caused all that reach.

1328
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:35,840
Yes, he did right.
You know, I, you know, and

1329
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:37,880
there's, there's a, there's a
line which I'm, I've never

1330
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,360
found, never found it.
But Sam Phillips says, if I, if

1331
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,120
I could find a white kid that
sings like Howlin' Wolf, I can

1332
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,240
make $1,000,000, right.
And, you know, and if you listen

1333
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:49,440
to Elvis's early recordings,
like his recordings in 5455,

1334
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:51,480
he's really good.
Elvis is really, really good.

1335
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:55,120
I mean, he sort of becomes a
parody of himself, you know, but

1336
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:57,320
that's more or less because of
his, his, his manager, the

1337
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,720
Colonel Tom Parker.
But like, but Elvis, like, you

1338
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:03,280
know, he was, I, I do believe he
was sincere in his appreciation

1339
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:06,560
of, of, of, of the music that he
that he absorbed.

1340
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,960
Sure.
You know, So, so, yeah.

1341
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,280
And so, yeah.
You know, and so that again, we

1342
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,880
have these various offshoots of,
of, you know, there's, you know,

1343
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:18,720
then, you know, then we have,
you know, like the Northern R&B

1344
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:20,480
song, which is more or less is,
is Motown.

1345
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,040
Then we have the Southern soul,
right, which is stacks and stuff

1346
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:26,000
from the Shoals, you know, and
James Brown at King in

1347
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,520
Cincinnati.
You know, and then you know, and

1348
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:32,000
then that and then they you
know, and then sort of like in

1349
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:36,280
the in the late 50s when sort of
a lot of the first generation

1350
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:39,000
rock'n'roll sort of disappear,
Elvis goes to the army, but he

1351
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:41,960
Holly dies, right?
Chuck Berry gets arrested.

1352
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,320
Jerry Lee Lewis may has decides
to marry his cousin.

1353
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:47,040
There's a.
His own problems too, right?

1354
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,640
Right, Yeah, Little Richard.
Little Richard gives up because

1355
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,560
he would he so I can super
brilliant, you know, move like

1356
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:54,640
he didn't like the deal he had
with his record label.

1357
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,280
So he says it takes, it would
take an active God to get out of

1358
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:59,320
his label.
So he said, so he becomes he

1359
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,920
goes into the he goes, he he
says, I'm going to go to the

1360
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:03,400
seminary.
It's like, which is an act of

1361
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:05,000
God.
And he gets out of record of

1362
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:06,880
super brilliant, super brilliant
business move.

1363
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,840
I say, Oh yeah, all those
artists disappear, leaving a

1364
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:12,560
vacuum, right.
And this is where like Frankie

1365
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,760
Valli comes in, you know, and,
and and a lot of schlock rock.

1366
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,320
So like, you know, a lot of
teeny bopper music because

1367
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:19,440
again, people didn't know what
to do.

1368
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:22,360
And then and that and that
leaves space and the surf rock

1369
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:24,440
comes in and that leaves basin
and and so The Beatles going to

1370
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,480
fill that vacuum, you know, and,
and, and to emerge in in the US

1371
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:28,840
in 64.
Yeah.

1372
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:30,680
Beatles, Beach Boys were the
stand.

1373
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,920
The Stones were active then.
When was it but the Stones?

1374
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:38,280
The Stones were much more Blues
influenced than than they were

1375
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,400
like teeny bop I I think they
had the plenty of the teeny

1376
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,280
bopper crowd.
Famously, of course, but yeah.

1377
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:45,720
I mean, you know, the one thing
that, that I think people forget

1378
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,600
is that both The Beatles and the
Stones and, and other bands of

1379
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:51,360
that era, the sort of the, the,
some of the British Invasion

1380
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:54,840
band, they were actually cover
bands like, you know, like the

1381
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:59,240
first, the, The Beatles don't
release a full original music

1382
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:01,880
until Hard Day's Night.
And so there was one or two

1383
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:03,920
original songs on their, on
their first record.

1384
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,680
And, and, you know, and then,
and then the Stones most again,

1385
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:07,880
same thing.
I think the, the, you know, the

1386
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,240
I want to be your I want to be
your lover, which is a song that

1387
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:13,160
Lennon McCartney wrote was, was
the, was the first Stones

1388
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:14,960
original song, although they
don't write it.

1389
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:18,360
And so, and so, I mean, so they
would never ex those bands would

1390
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,080
never make it today because
there's no bands going to

1391
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:24,480
release, like no labels going to
take a risk on a cover band,

1392
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:26,600
right?
Just releasing covers, right.

1393
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:28,720
And and then maybe 1.
Day there are also cover bands I

1394
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:29,920
believe.
I don't think that'd be the

1395
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,040
problem with When Assange with
Warner was that they didn't have

1396
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:33,240
any.
You know, like we have to tour

1397
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:34,360
because we don't have any songs
to play.

1398
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:37,600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you, you're absolutely right.

1399
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:40,960
Yeah.
So, and, and that model kind of

1400
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:44,040
existed through a good portion
of the 60s where you again,

1401
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:46,120
most, a lot of bands become
known as cover bands.

1402
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,720
And then and as, as they
realized, as the musicians in

1403
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,080
those bands realized the the
business is like, oh, the

1404
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:54,560
business isn't owning the songs,
right?

1405
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:56,280
And so then they write more
songs.

1406
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:58,640
That's interesting you, you
think that that's what happened

1407
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:02,840
relative to them discovering
their style of playing through

1408
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,280
covers, meaning covers for
example, like again with the

1409
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,040
stones or with the dead or
something like that.

1410
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:09,360
You could see that they had a
lot of influences throughout the

1411
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:15,280
years and the and you know, this
it started as a cover band, but

1412
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,560
the Grateful Dead realized that
was such a different sound than

1413
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:18,840
any of the songs that we're
covering.

1414
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:21,240
You know, like, I mean, if you
listen to Casey Jones, you

1415
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:23,440
listen to going down the road
feeling bad, you listen to any

1416
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:26,200
of these original songs.
I know you rider that that that

1417
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:29,040
were all covers that are all
became staples of their music.

1418
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:32,480
What makes them special with the
way that the dead or that the

1419
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:34,960
Stones or that The Beatles
performed these songs, Twist and

1420
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:36,480
shout was, you know, was a
cover.

1421
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,120
I guess that was a little more
true to the original cover than

1422
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:43,200
say, you know, you know, Casey
Jones that.

1423
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,680
But I, I could see a record
company taking a risk on a on a

1424
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:49,840
band that has a proven style.
And even though they're covering

1425
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,280
their music and their experience
is fundamentally different than

1426
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:55,760
anything, and it seems to be
working in its own right.

1427
01:03:56,520 --> 01:04:00,080
Well, so yes and no.
So the what?

1428
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:04,560
You know what, going back to the
other the previous conversation,

1429
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:10,840
so the Stones had people, they
put butts in seats, right?

1430
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:13,280
So The Beatles put butts in
seats, right?

1431
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,560
So, you know, the gigs in
Liverpool, the gigs at the

1432
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,080
Cavern Club, the Stones were
playing in London, right?

1433
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:20,040
So there there was something
about them.

1434
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:22,920
They had some charisma.
They have charisma, right?

1435
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:27,480
And they, and they were, and
they excited the audience didn't

1436
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:29,320
matter.
The labels probably didn't give

1437
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:34,320
one iota whether they're playing
original songs or cover songs or

1438
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,240
the how true they were to the
original.

1439
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,280
And I, you know, I'm sure that
The Beatles and the Stones tried

1440
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:40,440
to be as true as possible to the
best of their abilities.

1441
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:44,920
And, and so, but, but, but it
was the, it was the, the

1442
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,480
excitement of the audience, of
the paying audience that

1443
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:51,520
attracted the label.
And so, and the same thing with

1444
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:54,440
the Dead.
I mean, you, you, you look at a

1445
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:57,880
lot of early, early, some of the
early Dead cover the set lists

1446
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:00,880
where they're, they're playing
Motown songs, they're playing,

1447
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:02,000
right.
They're playing a bunch of

1448
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:03,640
bluegrass tunes, a bunch of jug
bands.

1449
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:05,640
So they didn't know what they
wanted to do, but they didn't

1450
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:07,920
know who they're going to be.
It took them quite a while to

1451
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,200
figure that out.
You know, I can have someone.

1452
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:12,680
I'm a huge Grateful Dead fan.
I still I got to see them about

1453
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:14,200
25 times.
Nice.

1454
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:19,560
Really.
Yeah, and, you know, like, it's

1455
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:24,200
not really until, you know,
Working Man's Dead and American

1456
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:27,920
Beauty, where they really figure
out their own style, right.

1457
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:29,720
Where, you know, because, you
know, I mean, yes, they're,

1458
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,320
they're, they're writing
original music, but they, they,

1459
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:36,080
they, they, they, they go from
like this experimental freak out

1460
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:39,360
band, you know, to like.
Oh, I know these tidy.

1461
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,600
We don't have tidy, you know,
you know, three minute, 4 minute

1462
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:43,440
songs.
Sure.

1463
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:44,960
Yeah.
Again, that that part of that is

1464
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:50,440
the influence of of John Barlow
and and Hunter right on, on the

1465
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,920
influence of the lyrics for Anne
Garcia and we respectively.

1466
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:58,080
So it's, you know, so it also
goes back to what's not

1467
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:00,520
happening now in the music
industry is that bands like The

1468
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,960
Beatles or the Stones or The Who
or the Dead or in certain names,

1469
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:07,240
they're like labels allow the
bands to develop.

1470
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:09,440
They said, we see potential
here.

1471
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:13,360
And and so we are going to let
you do some stuff, right?

1472
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:15,760
And as long as we're making
forward progress, you're making,

1473
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:18,720
you're making some sales.
There's butts in seats.

1474
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:20,400
We're going to let you figure
this out.

1475
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:25,760
Now, labels, you need to be
fully or pretty closely fully

1476
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:27,800
realized.
Like you need to know who you

1477
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:31,560
want to be as an artist from the
moment if you you start seeking

1478
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:36,040
the attention of labels, right?
So labels, they want to know I

1479
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:38,280
have a vision.
I want to, I want to be, I can

1480
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,440
pick a style, pick a whatever
how you want to look.

1481
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:45,720
You know that you you need to
become to the table fully vested

1482
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:49,120
and invested in your where
again, you know, again, I don't

1483
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:51,280
think the Grateful Dead would be
signed to this day.

1484
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:53,800
I don't think The Beatles would
be signed because they were

1485
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:56,280
cover bands, right?
It it again.

1486
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:57,520
I, I don't know when the day
gets time.

1487
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:01,000
Let's maybe 676667.
They're getting interest for

1488
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:04,040
sure, right, But they don't
really become the the band that

1489
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:06,680
they are, the band that they,
you know, when Garcia died,

1490
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:08,680
right?
It took them five or six years

1491
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:12,080
to to get there and it took them
even more time to figure out,

1492
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:13,960
you know, and if you listen, if
you listen, if you look at

1493
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,040
again, look at Grateful Dead set
lists, you know, up up up to the

1494
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:19,520
mid 70s, it's a but it is all
insane.

1495
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:22,840
Like we don't like.
I love those concerts.

1496
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:25,000
I love those.
The early 70s concerts and the

1497
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,000
late 60s concerts are so my
favorite.

1498
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:27,720
For them, right?
Yeah.

1499
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:29,680
And again, you know, you know, I
think.

1500
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,840
Pen, I love the Blues Pig Pen I
thought was added such a great

1501
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:35,080
blue science and I think that
they didn't feel like they could

1502
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:39,160
carry those those tunes without
a player like him, even though

1503
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,280
they perform him.
Well, I mean, you know, I mean,

1504
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:45,320
I picked a good, a good, a good
point because like the the band

1505
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:47,720
like the like they start off as
as, as basically, you know, it

1506
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:49,600
was mother Mccree's Uptown drug
champions, right?

1507
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:53,160
And they're a blue band.
And then they and they move away

1508
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:55,200
from the Blues and picked didn't
really know what to do because

1509
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:56,800
he was like, and he was a good
singer.

1510
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:57,720
He.
Died of alcoholism,

1511
01:07:57,720 --> 01:07:59,800
unfortunately.
Yeah, unfortunately, and he was,

1512
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:01,480
he was, he was a mediocre
keyboard player.

1513
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:03,440
And like, so he did when they
started doing all the freak out

1514
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:06,000
stuff, he just walk off stage,
you know, and he'd come in,

1515
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,400
they, they do hard to handle
whatever, you know, or you know,

1516
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:10,360
Mr. Charlie, whatever.
And then he would just sort of

1517
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:12,360
be in the sidelines, right?
And so they, they kind of

1518
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:14,680
started moving a different
direction, you know, you know,

1519
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:17,800
and, and he didn't, he, he died,
but like, I don't think he would

1520
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:19,760
have, if he didn't die, I don't
think he would have last with

1521
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,080
them because I don't, he
wouldn't have fit because they,

1522
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:24,240
they, they, they, they moved in
a different direction.

1523
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:26,040
So.
I wonder if they moved in a

1524
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:27,960
different direction because he
died though, because you could

1525
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:29,600
see that the styles of the band
throughout the years.

1526
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:31,520
I don't want to just get too
nitpicky about this, but the

1527
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:34,040
bands throughout the years,
because the, the, the biggest

1528
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:36,600
thing that was always gone was
the keyboard player and, and,

1529
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:40,960
and whenever and the keyboard
players tend to bring a lot of,

1530
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:43,319
you know, Jerry Garcia brought a
lot of country.

1531
01:08:43,319 --> 01:08:46,640
Bob Weir brought a lot of that
western, you know, cowboy type

1532
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:50,520
of music.
And then, you know, I mean Keith

1533
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:54,279
or what's, what's his name, man?
He had his own awesome solo

1534
01:08:54,279 --> 01:08:58,439
career.
Bruce Hornsby, you know, or Tom

1535
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:01,080
Constantine or whoever, you
know, whoever it was, they all

1536
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:05,040
kind of brought their own flavor
and influences to the band that

1537
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:07,160
I think would actually change
the direction of the band's

1538
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:11,520
musical style many times that
the egg, if you listen set from

1539
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:16,399
69 to 72 to 77 to 80 to 8 to the
early 80s until the end of the

1540
01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:18,520
career.
It's a different genre band

1541
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:20,600
almost every time.
And I could, I'm sure that you

1542
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:22,720
can make the argument it's
because of the actual rotations

1543
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,880
of players in it.
I'm going to say no to that.

1544
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:27,479
I'm going to say I don't agree
with that.

1545
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:29,439
That's fine.
It's like no, it was Garcia's

1546
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:33,160
band and and and they did what
he wanted to do and they you

1547
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:36,000
know, and yes, the the the style
of the keeper players certainly

1548
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:37,720
influenced.
Like, you know, Keith was really

1549
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:40,439
good.
Brent was an amazing musician,

1550
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:43,319
vocalist, you know, and you
know, Hornby.

1551
01:09:43,399 --> 01:09:47,520
Hornby was rather short lived,
but and again, but you know, it

1552
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:49,160
said yes.
So when you saw the bands and

1553
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:51,000
you know, in those different
iterations, of course, that

1554
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:53,840
there was a different dynamic,
but I, it was not they, they,

1555
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:56,720
you know, they were unfortunate,
the keyboard players.

1556
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:57,960
They were, they weren't
interchangeable.

1557
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:02,360
They weren't interchangeable.
You know, again, the sound of

1558
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:05,760
the band, it was it's a mixer,
Ron Garcia's guitar and you

1559
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:07,560
know, I and he led, he led the
band.

1560
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:12,200
He he and we were not.
I mean, they they were there was

1561
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:15,520
simpatico, of course, but again,
it was Garcias band, I think.

1562
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:17,080
Well, no.
Question is Garcias Band for

1563
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:18,800
sure.
OK, Yeah, that's fine.

1564
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:23,160
That's that's fine.
So the, and yeah, I guess it's

1565
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:27,120
so I think what we're getting
actually at almost more than

1566
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,160
anything and everything I have
in common that I've noticed

1567
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:32,000
about all my conversation about
rock is that rock is pretty much

1568
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:35,560
almost like a pop fusion type of
sound where it draws from

1569
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:38,880
influences of local of, of, you
know, local time.

1570
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:43,880
So local roots, whether that be
blue soul, bluegrass, country,

1571
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:47,760
whatever it might, you know,
whatever that might be and

1572
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:50,960
whatever is kind of pop with the
time that connects with the

1573
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:54,960
youth.
And that's kind of what I'm able

1574
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:58,160
to gather from the different
sounds that are happening all

1575
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,400
over the place, you know, as far
as the location goes.

1576
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,680
Yeah, I mean, so the, I think
the problem is there's a term is

1577
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:10,520
the term rock itself, right.
So you know, you know, you know,

1578
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:13,520
when I teach the history of
rock'n'roll class and, you know,

1579
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:18,120
I the first class, I will say
what's your definition of rock?

1580
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:20,800
And for the most part, it's
going to be a lot of people will

1581
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:24,360
write they, they, they, when you
think about rock, people in

1582
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:30,120
general envision a dude with a
guitar and, and that has that

1583
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:33,440
has become the stereotypical
image of rock.

1584
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:36,360
And I get a lot of that has to
just a lot of other factors

1585
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:40,000
involved in in that, in that, in
that, in that, in that

1586
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:44,520
conception.
And and also the way the Rock

1587
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,120
and Roll Hall of Fame sort of
they sort of try to protect

1588
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:49,960
their idea of what rock is,
right?

1589
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:52,160
I know that they just announced
the the inductees.

1590
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:55,680
Yeah, right, including Wu Tang
Clan and, you know, and like,

1591
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:59,120
and so because back in the day,
Jan Wenner, who was involved in

1592
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:01,600
rock, like he had a very narrow
definition of rock.

1593
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:04,480
Rock meant primarily white dudes
with guitars, right?

1594
01:12:04,480 --> 01:12:08,320
And as and as as rock progressed
right?

1595
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:12,760
From from the early days with 55
took the present right there

1596
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:15,400
there there are not as many rock
bands anymore, right?

1597
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:17,400
There are very few rock bands to
be perfectly honest, right?

1598
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:20,560
Especially achieving any kind of
chart success, you know, Foo

1599
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:22,000
Fighters, I guess, you know,
sure.

1600
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:25,160
And so you need to expand the
definition because at some point

1601
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:27,200
they would have run out of
rock'n'roll from would have run

1602
01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:32,040
out of people to induct, you
know, And so, you know, I like

1603
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:35,160
the so ice Cube from N de Bray
and I, I just ice cube like he's

1604
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:37,120
like rock'n'roll.
When the N de Bray got it got

1605
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:39,040
inducted.
People like, how are they in

1606
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:40,800
there is like rock'n'roll is not
a style.

1607
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:43,240
It's just, it's an idea.
It's just stick it to the man

1608
01:12:43,480 --> 01:12:45,360
right?
That and and like, and that is

1609
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:47,800
very much what rock rap hasn't
come with rock.

1610
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:51,680
Like rock was very rebellious.
So cool, so interesting.

1611
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:53,600
Never thought about like that
but that's true.

1612
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:55,880
I love.
You know, I, I remember like,

1613
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:58,080
you know, when the Beastie Boys,
who I love got inducted, you

1614
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:00,320
know, the to rock people like,
Oh my God, the Beastie Boys,

1615
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:02,440
like no, the Beastie Boys, they
are the personification of

1616
01:13:02,440 --> 01:13:04,200
rock'n'roll.
They were a fucking poop band.

1617
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:10,040
They're amazing musicians.
It's people have a very narrow

1618
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:12,960
definition of rock.
And so when you so if you do,

1619
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:15,880
you think about rock as more of
an attitude than a musical style

1620
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:17,800
because you know, again, just
just just as there's

1621
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:21,040
subcategories of of rap or rock
or rap or metal.

1622
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:24,400
Yeah.
So, you know, rock is this very

1623
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:27,000
big umbrella term and then all
everything else kind of falls

1624
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:30,040
under that, right.
And and then there's you use a

1625
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:32,520
family tree, it gets very
complicated and and obviously

1626
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:34,800
you can nitpick, you know,
whether it's like, oh, it's like

1627
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:38,400
South Jersey rock or like, or,
you know, or it's, or it's, you

1628
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:40,760
know, again, there's, you know,
there's there is, you know,

1629
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:43,240
there's like Ohio rock, there
is, you know, whatever it may

1630
01:13:43,240 --> 01:13:44,040
be.
So you know.

1631
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:46,600
Yeah, Yeah.
And I was also thinking

1632
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:48,960
actually, while you're saying
that, because I feel like the

1633
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:52,480
country world has kind of become
a little bit, has developed a

1634
01:13:52,480 --> 01:13:56,240
little bit of that attitude in
modern day music.

1635
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:58,160
And the other thing I was
thinking when you mentioned

1636
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:01,960
earlier was that, you know, you
kind of have to have your career

1637
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:04,120
set and your idea of like what
your music is going to be and

1638
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:05,560
everything is.
And then and then, you know,

1639
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:07,480
you're ready kind of you don't
have as much room to play

1640
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:09,600
around.
I think it's interesting that

1641
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:12,400
you see artists kind of
shuffling around like Jelly roll

1642
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:13,680
or some shit.
What's the name?

1643
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:19,800
What's oh, gosh, Post Malone,
you know, go from, go from one

1644
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:22,240
world all the way to another.
And then, you know, you hear

1645
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:25,080
them talk about music and you
find out about just how how deep

1646
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:27,160
their appreciation of music in
general goes.

1647
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:29,800
And you kind of that kind of
embodies that same kind of stick

1648
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:31,680
it to the man.
Hey, you don't tell me what

1649
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:34,000
music I'm going to play or don't
tell me what kind of artist I

1650
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:35,520
am.
I'll do what I, you know, what I

1651
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:36,960
what I feel like.
What do you think about that?

1652
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:38,640
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's true, You know,

1653
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:42,520
You know, most artists typically
stay in one lane because, you

1654
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:44,560
know, because it's, you know,
that you can be influenced for

1655
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:49,080
lots of stuff, but you, you, you
risk alienating a fan base,

1656
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:50,760
right?
So, you know, I, I, when I, when

1657
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,640
I think about people who are,
you know, visionary artists, I

1658
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:56,480
think about people like maybe
like Miles Davis, who like did

1659
01:14:56,480 --> 01:14:59,040
some stuff and his mind kept
going David Bowie.

1660
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:02,280
Like, you know, like there's no,
there is no, there is no David

1661
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:03,840
Bowie sound.
The only constant is David

1662
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:07,200
Bowie's voice, right?
And you know, and so, you know,

1663
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:10,760
even even Miss Swift, right, you
know, started off as a country

1664
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:12,120
artist.
And again, this was her.

1665
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:14,520
Her move was very calculated.
Yeah.

1666
01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:16,560
But yeah, you mentioned Jelly,
Jelly roll or others like.

1667
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:18,800
Yeah, it's like, it's like,
yeah, I like rock.

1668
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:20,400
I like rap.
I like country.

1669
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:23,440
They're they're and, you know,
and to me as a musician, as a

1670
01:15:23,440 --> 01:15:25,760
human, they all make sense.
And so I want to explore those

1671
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:27,160
ideas.
But again, you don't get to do

1672
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:29,480
that unless you have success,
right.

1673
01:15:29,480 --> 01:15:32,880
So, you know, so you know,
again, it's like, you know,

1674
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:36,080
think back when you know, Eric
Clapton made his like most pure

1675
01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:39,120
Blues album was only after he
won all those Grammys for, for

1676
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:42,240
for the the unplugged record.
And he comes back and drops like

1677
01:15:42,240 --> 01:15:45,440
very strict Blues record.
He doesn't do that unless he has

1678
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:47,640
less because he's he made so
much money for himself and the

1679
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:49,240
label.
He's like, I'm doing this record

1680
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:50,320
and you don't like it.
Move on.

1681
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:53,880
So John Mayer comes to mind too.
Yeah, that's right.

1682
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:58,720
Yeah, so, but yeah, but you
know, again, going back, the

1683
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:02,800
music is there's way more
connection between, between

1684
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:06,440
seemingly disparate styles like
country, rap and rock.

1685
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:09,440
Then then there, then there's
differences, right.

1686
01:16:09,440 --> 01:16:13,080
And, and again, it's only the
audiences that it's only

1687
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:16,200
audiences that that I mean, not
the artists live in these boxes.

1688
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:18,280
But like, but if you are a
strict country person, like, Oh

1689
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:23,160
my God, I can't believe that
there's a that, you know, that

1690
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:24,920
this song sounds like rap like.
Well, of course, because that's

1691
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:27,920
what the artists listen to.
They're influenced Morgan Morgan

1692
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:31,080
Wall and obviously clearly uses
lots of trap beats in his music.

1693
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:36,080
Postmones the kind kind of like
a, you know, very much like a

1694
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:38,920
rocker guy.
So, you know, and, and there's,

1695
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:40,920
there's a lot more affinity
between the country and rock and

1696
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:43,680
there hasn't been for a long
time where you take like Zac,

1697
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:46,600
Zac Brown, right, as as a
country artist, like he's

1698
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:48,200
basically a rock, basically a
rock band.

1699
01:16:48,440 --> 01:16:50,960
Yeah, he's not rock.
He's a Rocky.

1700
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,040
He's a Rocky Jimmy Buffett.
Yeah.

1701
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:55,120
Oh yeah, I don't like to turn me
out rock.

1702
01:16:55,400 --> 01:16:57,680
That's that's that is that is
the name that no one ever used

1703
01:16:57,800 --> 01:16:59,880
so that that was based comes out
of a sound live skin.

1704
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:01,360
Yeah, but you don't you don't
you?

1705
01:17:01,440 --> 01:17:06,560
You don't think that it conjures
up a pretty accurate picture of

1706
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:09,200
like most songs you can expect
in that kind of genre pretty

1707
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:11,160
easily.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's not

1708
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:12,600
I'm not saying it's not
accurate, but like, you know,

1709
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:15,880
well, like I I just had this
conversation, you know, with my

1710
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:17,400
classes about two weeks, two or
three weeks ago.

1711
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:19,640
Like talk about yard rocket.
It it is a thing.

1712
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:21,680
That's that was that was applied
after the fact.

1713
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:24,120
Sure.
Michael McDonald, Fagan, like

1714
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:26,760
those guys hate that term.
They're like, we were not

1715
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:28,600
listening.
We were not we were not white

1716
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:30,800
dudes in a yacht.
Yeah, might be he'll put the

1717
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:33,320
who's listening to his music.
But that's not how that that we

1718
01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:35,080
as the creators were not.
That's not what we were trying

1719
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:39,160
to do or tell the audience.
One of the most fun times that I

1720
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:41,200
had.
Any show I went to with my wife

1721
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:44,720
our first two months after got
married and we got married.

1722
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:46,640
We dated for seven months before
we got married.

1723
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:49,520
Two months after we got married,
he went to Jimmy Buffett in

1724
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:54,840
Orlando and it was so much fun
there.

1725
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:56,760
And he died probably a year
later.

1726
01:17:57,320 --> 01:18:00,840
But he, he, he looked great.
And the audience was anywhere

1727
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:05,520
from 18 to like 85 and everyone
was wearing the tiny Bahama

1728
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:08,720
shirts and the parrot hats.
And it was such like a, and

1729
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:12,760
that, you know, I, that I, you
know, I talked about the, you

1730
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:16,000
know, the live, the live market.
There's something that I think

1731
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:20,160
that is so incredible about
group conscious to group

1732
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:23,800
conscious experiences, you know,
like going to a show like that

1733
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:29,200
with we have something so
emotionally strong in common

1734
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:32,080
with hundreds of thousands of
people around you.

1735
01:18:32,440 --> 01:18:35,840
That is I, I, I can't imagine
the industry is going to go

1736
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:38,960
anywhere anytime soon.
You know, I mean AI, but I think

1737
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:40,000
that people are going to look
for it.

1738
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:44,160
Well, you know, if any, if
anything, you know, like, so

1739
01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:47,920
people crave connection, right?
So, so a concert, whether it's

1740
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:51,240
again, whether it's 50 people or
50,000, right, there is there is

1741
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:53,840
that communal experience of of,
of, of that connection.

1742
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:56,640
I was at that show, right.
And with these other people.

1743
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,200
And you know, and obviously now
with with, you know, the fact

1744
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:01,480
you can take video and, you
know, and or you can, or you can

1745
01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:03,840
watch stuff on YouTube later on.
Yeah.

1746
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:06,640
So I mean, there is that, yes.
And AI is not going to does not

1747
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:08,800
necessarily create that
connection for sure.

1748
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:11,440
So yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1749
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:13,800
It's it's fun.
It's fun.

1750
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:18,080
OK, There was one last question
I wanted to ask you.

1751
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:23,800
But now it is slipping my, my.
Oh, yes, that's what I want to

1752
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:25,400
ask you.
I think that I want to ask if

1753
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:28,160
you think the reason why rock
bands have generally kind of

1754
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:31,760
disappeared or gone away was
because I think if rock was a

1755
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:34,760
form of sticking it to the man
and it got to such a point of

1756
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:39,080
enormous, such enormous
popularity, that almost the

1757
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:42,360
initial incentive to create that
rock music kind of goes away,

1758
01:19:42,360 --> 01:19:47,400
doesn't it?
Yes and no.

1759
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:51,080
I mean, I, I don't think rock
is.

1760
01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:54,080
I think rock will probably make
a comeback, right?

1761
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:57,480
Wait, we phrase the I'm sorry, I
lost my, but we phrase the

1762
01:19:57,480 --> 01:19:58,120
question again.
Sorry.

1763
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:02,240
Yeah, I think that the root of
rock is people feeling like they

1764
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:05,520
don't fit in or like they feel
like they want to stick it to

1765
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:08,040
the man or express themselves in
a unique way that they wouldn't

1766
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:10,360
ordinarily be able to.
And then it.

1767
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:14,000
Gained enormous popularity, so
it almost like an like that

1768
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:17,920
initial motivation doesn't seem
to apply anymore, you know?

1769
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:20,960
I, I, I think the motivation
applies.

1770
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:23,800
I think people, I, I think the
sticking to the man attitude is

1771
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:25,520
still there.
I just think people are actually

1772
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:28,040
expressing it in through
different genres.

1773
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:31,000
So I think which which is one of
the reasons why I think rap is

1774
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:33,440
such a popular genre, because
rap rap that is very much part

1775
01:20:33,440 --> 01:20:40,720
of a rap ethos for sure.
Yeah, And but the you know,

1776
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:43,080
there's still, you know, people
still selling guitars, guitars

1777
01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:45,200
and are still on operation,
right.

1778
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:47,720
You know, there are still
schools of rock and those type

1779
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:51,000
of things everywhere.
So there's still, you know, and

1780
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:54,120
you know, there's still a lot of
interest in playing instruments.

1781
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:57,160
So not, you know, not that rock
doesn't play in physically do

1782
01:20:57,160 --> 01:21:01,080
the laptop and the trainable
very much instruments, but it's

1783
01:21:01,080 --> 01:21:07,720
just I guess I guess what rock
needs is a new like champion,

1784
01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:08,800
right.
So, like, you know, the Foo

1785
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:10,360
Fighters been around for a long
time, right.

1786
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:13,360
So, like is it is it geese?
Is that is are they are they the

1787
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:14,520
next band?
You know, was it?

1788
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:20,080
You know, it's so, you know, and
is it, you know, I guess also

1789
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:22,640
it's, it all depends on, on the
major labels, right?

1790
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:25,920
Taking a risk on a four person
band or whatever, a five person

1791
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:28,520
band as opposed to a single
artist, right?

1792
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:31,560
We can with the band is
important, but who's in the band

1793
01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:33,800
is not as important to the, to
the, to the, you know, to the,

1794
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:36,240
to the audience.
So because there's more risk,

1795
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,120
but you got more people in the
band you like, then there's more

1796
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:40,240
people to make, to make poor
decisions, so to speak.

1797
01:21:41,080 --> 01:21:44,200
So, yeah.
So I'm not sure.

1798
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:47,880
I'm I'm not sure, you know,
again, you know, you know, I'm

1799
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:51,360
optimistic about rock, but you
know, but again, it is, it is,

1800
01:21:51,480 --> 01:21:55,160
you know, there or I think rock
and country have sort of aligned

1801
01:21:55,160 --> 01:21:59,280
themselves a lot more even like,
you know, Luke Bryan or, or.

1802
01:21:59,920 --> 01:22:03,440
I'd call Billy Strings a, a, a,
a, a voice like that, You know,

1803
01:22:03,440 --> 01:22:06,360
I mean, I think he's got he
because he also got that

1804
01:22:06,480 --> 01:22:09,200
sensibility of it's Billy
Strings.

1805
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:12,680
He has a consistent band.
The his fans know the bands,

1806
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:14,040
right?
Like they, they have a personal

1807
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:16,280
relationship, but it's not he's
they're not, they're not,

1808
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:19,280
they're not Billy Strings and
whatever it is, it's just him

1809
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:22,560
and, and he's been gaining.
I mean, he's been, he's, he's

1810
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:25,480
been incredible for getting
better and better for years.

1811
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:28,000
You want to talk about the
communal experience, right?

1812
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:30,080
So like, he's inherited the
Grateful Dead fandom, right?

1813
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:33,360
So right, So right.
He's an amazing guitar player,

1814
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:35,440
right?
He barely sells any records.

1815
01:22:35,440 --> 01:22:37,080
He's a bluegrass band.
He plays the Madison Square

1816
01:22:37,080 --> 01:22:38,520
Garden.
I mean, it's it is literally an

1817
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:40,040
anomaly.
He's incredible.

1818
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:43,120
He makes, you know, I'm going to
guess he makes about 30 or $40

1819
01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:46,640
million a year, right?
And it basically doesn't sell

1820
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:49,320
any records or almost not almost
no records.

1821
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:52,680
It's all, it's all total.
It's all the live experience.

1822
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:55,000
And I got a lot of that, a lot
of that comes out of the that

1823
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:57,240
that is very much part of the
communal.

1824
01:22:57,240 --> 01:23:00,080
The communal experience is very
much part of bluegrass and the

1825
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:03,800
bluegrass festival scene, which
obviously where he grew up and

1826
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:08,200
and again, as the gravel that
stop existed and then the dead

1827
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:09,560
could be more or less stopped,
right.

1828
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:12,520
So there's a lot of crossover,
you know, doing that to the gym

1829
01:23:12,520 --> 01:23:14,120
and ethos, whether it's fish or
whatever.

1830
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:19,120
And Strings has inherited those.
You know those some of those

1831
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:20,640
fans for sure.
Yeah.

1832
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:23,560
And what's fun is that he seems
to be committed to the band, to

1833
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:26,600
the to the album structure too.
As in he still is putting out

1834
01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:28,960
albums every X amount of every
two or three years.

1835
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:31,360
And even whether he's selling
them or not, he's putting and

1836
01:23:31,360 --> 01:23:34,280
like he's putting in the effort
to create a full length album

1837
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:36,400
and not dropping a couple of
singles and calling that an

1838
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:38,760
album like what is Pretty do
these days.

1839
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:40,920
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I can, but that's also

1840
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:44,920
that's also very, very part of
the bluegrass tradition as well.

1841
01:23:45,400 --> 01:23:48,160
But again, like, you know, if he
if he wasn't making selling out,

1842
01:23:48,160 --> 01:23:50,840
you know every show he plays,
but he might be doing, he might

1843
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:53,400
be thinking more of a single, a
single strategy, right?

1844
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:57,400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Really interesting stuff, Chris.

1845
01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:01,040
This was really a ton of fun.
You're such a wonderful wealth

1846
01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:02,720
of information.
Thank you so much.

1847
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:06,960
And yeah, and I hope to have you
back, you know, in a couple of

1848
01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:09,800
months maybe we'll talk, we'll
talk about the other topics of

1849
01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:12,640
music we have in hand.
But I think this was, this is

1850
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:13,720
awesome.
And I really appreciate your

1851
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:14,160
time.
Thank.

1852
01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:16,760
You so much yeah, let me let me
just let me know when it when

1853
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:18,320
it's going to drop so I can.
Absolutely.

1854
01:24:18,320 --> 01:24:19,080
You got it.
OK.

1855
01:24:19,080 --> 01:24:20,680
And have a good day.
Bye, take care.

1856
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:21,120
Bye bye.