Music Series 8: Steven Rings / Bob Dylan History / Dylan Genres / Dylan Covers / Dylan Voices

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together,

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Professor, author Stephen Rings,
How are you, Steve Rings,

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welcome to the show.
How are you today?

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I'm just great.
Thanks so much for having me.

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I'm excited to talk.
I was excited when we spoke

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about a month ago, I think, and
we had our introductory call and

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immediately we had a ton of fun
going back and forth about Bob

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Dylan and about also the music
and influence and the roots and

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the persona, a little bit of
the, the human aspects of him.

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And you know, I and then you and
then you and then you.

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And then when I, when I was
reading your book and I, I have

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to, I, I admit I did not finish
it.

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I was, and have time to finish
it, but that's all right.

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I, I had a lot of fun with it
and I'm really excited to talk

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to you.
So, so tell me a little bit

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about your about what you
research, what you study and

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what kind of brought you to
write about this type of about

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what what makes your book about
Bob Dylan unique?

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No.
OK, well, first, thanks so much

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for having me and give me a
chance to talk Bob Dylan with

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you and about my work.
I'm a music theorist.

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I've taught at the University of
Chicago for about 21 years and I

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work on a range of music.
So music theorists tend to focus

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on nuts and bolts of music,
details of harmony, rhythm,

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things like that.
My early research is quite

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different from this.
It's focused on sort of fancy

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mathematical ways of talking
about Western classical music.

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But I started off as a guitarist
when I was a kid.

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I grew up in Minnesota, like Bob
Dylan, but in a very different

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part of Minnesota way in the
South.

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He grew up in the Iron Range in
the North.

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So I switching to this topic was
in some ways like coming home

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for me to a musician from my
part of the world and to music

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that I've known since I was
little.

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You've.
Been playing it forever too.

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Yeah, a bit.
Although I didn't play a ton of

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Dylan when I was younger, my
brother and I played in bands

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that were more far afield from
Bob Dylan at the time.

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But I also went to a high school
that was very much a Grateful

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Dead focused high school in the
80s in the sort of curdled late

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phase of Deadhead, you know,
decadence.

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And so, you know, there was a
lot of Bob Dylan around too

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then.
But you know, what brought me to

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the project was that first time
I wanted to spend time with his

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music again.
Second, he is someone who is

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rarely discussed musically.
Usually people talk about his

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words, they talk about his
historical importance, his

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faith, his status as a
countercultural figure, and so

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on.
And there is generally a sense

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that his music won't sustain
extended critical attention.

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And I thought this was wrong.
Moreover, I was so struck,

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especially as I got to know more
really, really serious fans.

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These people, by and large, are
just absolutely avid fans of his

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music.
Yeah, and they want to discuss

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every little detail.
They want to compare bootlegs

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with studio recordings, slight
changes in arrangement, in

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timing of a certain line vocally
and so forth.

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They really are dedicated to the
sounds that he makes and

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profoundly moved by them.
That's one piece.

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The other piece that we all know
is that Bob Dylan's sounds are

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unusual.
They're idiosyncratic.

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They are.
They do not conform two

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conventional notions of polished
musicianship, Obviously, you

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know, with his starting with his
voice, but with his instrumental

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playing and so forth.
So that, yeah, that that

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particular pairing was
fascinating to me.

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Here's someone who is absolutely
beloved, one of the, you know,

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most famous figures of post war
mass culture as a musician who

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is also such an unusual
musician.

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And how can we make sense of
that?

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Because in general, music
scholars are not good at talking

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about musicians whose technique
does not conform to traditional

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canons of virtuosity, virtuosity
or Polish or what have you.

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So that interested me.
And that was the starting point

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for the book.
That's really cool.

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Really.
One thing that immediately jumps

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to my mind just in response to
your last sentence over there

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was I feel like the people, you
know, like the Grateful Dead,

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for example, like you mentioned
earlier, kind of I wouldn't say

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they invented the genre, but
they rockified genre of of or

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psychedelicized, you know, the
genre of jazz and improv culture

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and that that whole that whole
world.

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You don't, you know, and then
you know, and so you kind of

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scholars and movements that kind
of grow out of that with Dylan

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and and his music in particular,
you don't really have many

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people that that kind of try to
embody.

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You know, you put, I guess you
have a little bit more of an era

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based, you know, I get you, you
people would would kind of mimic

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Dylan based on the era.
So the most common would be, you

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know, that kind of folky.
We got blown in the wind,

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whatever Ted Berra and then, but
I mean, you he he is a lot more

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to him.
He has that church music and he

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has the rock music.
And I was just listening.

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I went, I went to to the gym
this morning and I was just

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going through literally a couple
of songs on different albums

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from different years.
And the music is so cool and so

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different throughout the years
from the late 80s to the studio

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albums that have more of these
deep bluesy kind of vibes to

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them.
I, I mean, what, what's so much

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fun is that there is, there is
no Bob Dylan music style.

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There are errors of Bob Dylan
music style and that that makes

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it so much more fun to dive
into.

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Yeah, I mean that in in the
aggregate that is his brand,

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right?
He's zigs when you expect him to

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zag always has done so
constantly.

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And you know, the most famous
first Zig was Newport in 1965

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and going electric, but then
pretty quickly he zags after

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that into away from Woodstock,
what he called Woodstock nation

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into country with national
skyline.

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And then as you mentioned, about
10 years later, he's a born

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again Christian, even though he
was raised in, he comes from a

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Jewish background, Eastern
European ancestors and, you

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know, Bar mitzvah and all that
up in Hibbing.

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Yeah, he always.
Kind of kept on floating back

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and forth with the Judaism of
his life.

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He did and you know, and you
know, by the a couple of years

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later in the 80s, he gravitates
back a little bit, may sort of

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reconnects with his Jewish
roots.

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But then, you know, in the 80s
has kind of a rough time with

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some 80's pop trends.
And then he sort of reconnects

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with early music in the, you
know, folk and Blues in the 90s,

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has a kind of career
renaissance, but then later, you

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know, switches to show tunes,
does a whole several records, 3

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records of a Great American
songbook stuff.

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So yeah, he is always shifting.
The voices change constantly.

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And, you know, it's interesting.
I hadn't thought about the

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Grateful Dead in this regard,
but the Grateful Dead of course

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change some.
And you know, the lineup changes

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slightly to keyboard, players
keep changing and so on.

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Hey everyone real quick if
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Thanks so much.
But in general, it's a really

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consistent style and you can
mainly tell the differences by

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if it's the 80s.
Jerry Garcia has a since guitar

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and like Ottawa pedals or
whatever, or in the mid 70s

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Donna Godcho's singing or
whatever.

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But in general, in general the
style is pretty consistent.

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It's more of an organic
development of their style.

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Whereas with Dylan, there are
these sort of startling

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disjunctures in his style where
suddenly it sounds totally

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different.
Yeah, and I think and, and, and,

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you know, and we, and you and I
talked about this.

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By the way, just to quickly
relate a funny story, my friend

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from business had told me, a
buddy, Keith, We we talk about

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music when we're not talking
about business, we're talking

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about business.
We're not talking about music

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really.
And and he told me he goes, you

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know, he, he's like, I'm a Dylan
nut.

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And one time I went to a Dylan
concert.

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I drove, he's from Ohio, I
believe.

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And I forgot where he drove to,
maybe even Minnesota.

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And, and like, I'm sitting on
the stadium and they're just tie

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dye T-shirts all around me.
And he's like, I have what is

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going on?
And he looks over it, you know,

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he starts talking to people next
to it and he's like, so what's

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going on?
And you know, why is that one of

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the, you know, the Dylan show
wearing tie dye?

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He's like Dylan, dude, this is
Dylan of the dead man.

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Like you're, you're, you're,
you're in for a different type

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of show over here.
And.

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More real.
Yeah.

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And he was like, it was, it was.
It was a strange night,

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especially for expecting that.
But yeah.

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Well, and and for many Dylan
fans, this is viewed as kind of

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a nadir of Dylan's performing
career.

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The Dylan and the Dead shows see
him just kind of flailing.

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There is a live record called
Dylan and the Dead that is

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regularly ranked way at the
bottom.

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And he he does credit them
nevertheless with sort of

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pointing the way forward, Jerry
Garcia, especially what would

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become the Never ending tour and
the idea it was the Grateful

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Dead.
Of course, I've always been on a

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never ending tour or were until
Jerry Garcia's death.

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And they're still, you know,
whoever's alive now.

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But that was the model that he
found like just go out night

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after night and do it,
experiment, make mistakes,

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stumble, but make it a practice.
And that was started in the late

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80s and it's still going starts
in 1988.

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And is it, Look, I mean, fans
argue about whether the never

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ending tour is still going
because of COVID because they

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had to stop briefly for COVID
and whether the rough and rowdy

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ways tour is still it.
But that's semantics.

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He did learn from him.
I I've read accounts that Dylan

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had famously prepped like 50
songs of the Dead and then

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proceeded to not play a single
one of them on the left Bob Weir

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float.
You know, flailing around in the

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dark trying to figure out what
to do.

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And that that is again, very on
brand for him.

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He loves to call audibles from
the stage and essentially say,

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no, let's do this song.
We didn't rehearse it.

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He likes to keep his fellow
musicians off balance, keep them

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on their toes, have things be
spontaneous and a little

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ramshackle.
So that is definitely his MO.

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And we were talking well again
earlier about a month ago and

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I'm and this is actually a
really interesting dynamic that

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I first noticed with actually
streaming shows where when

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Netflix started dumping whole
seasons of TV at a time, it

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allows you to consume the
content very differently than if

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you're waiting a week at a time
for an episode to drop.

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You may not remember every
detail in between the callbacks

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or maybe a little bit harder to
remember.

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There's something that I feel
very lucky about having access

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to Dylan's entire library or any
artist that I'm really getting

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into.
I did this with Springsteen.

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I did this with Van Morrison
with the Dead, where you can

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really just drop in on any point
of a career and you can kind of

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take pick what you like, drop
what you don't, and then allow

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yourself to kind of grow into
different types of the music,

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right?
So for example, I just again,

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you know, the old Mercy album or
this, the 1974 live sampler with

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the playing with the band,
right?

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These are like sounds that I was
not prepared for when I started

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getting exposed to Dylan.
And I didn't have to wait to

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1974 or 1978 or or 2010 for this
to come out.

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I could just kind of pop, pop in
and out and and really get to

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experience a lot of them, you
know, the the majesty of the of

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the development of Dylan's
career.

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And in that regard, what I, what
I said to you was I never felt

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let down by Dylan.
I was always confused, you know,

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and I and I kind of like that
the man never seemed to have any

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set idea as to what he was and
admitting that he was always a

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work in progress.
But I'm curious from your

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perspective or you know, someone
that's been probably following

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00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,120
him for the course of time and
seeing the development of music

225
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,520
as as his career went on, I'm
sure he didn't feel the same way

226
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,920
to lifelong fans, you know?
But yeah, for sure.

227
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,840
But I, you know, I wouldn't
count myself in the category of

228
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,600
people who've been pissed off by
him taking this turn or that

229
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,320
turn for some of those.
I think you really had to be

230
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,800
there.
It's interesting that you say

231
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,640
that.
What is what you really like now

232
00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,520
is we've got all of this had our
fingers with streaming and you

233
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,160
know, with Dylan, it's not just
the many, many studio albums,

234
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,000
about 40 studio albums, but
we've got literally thousands of

235
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,000
bootlegs, about about 3500
bootlegs or something like that.

236
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:36,240
So you can hear anything from
the last 60 years.

237
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:42,120
Yeah, really easily 65 years.
But.

238
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,760
And so one thing that that does
is it allows one to kind of

239
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:55,560
revel in the variety and the
multiplicity of styles in a way

240
00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:01,080
that is free of the like high
dudgeon of Oh my God, he did

241
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:06,560
what like electric or now he's
preaching, you know, Christian

242
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,960
gospel from the stage.
All of that always seems to me a

243
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,480
little quaint in retrospect.
Like, I can't get a offended by

244
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,040
it.
And I love, you know, for

245
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,960
example, the Christian phase.
I adore that music.

246
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,280
I'm not a believer, but I adore
that phase.

247
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,960
And I wasn't if you were a
boomer and this was the guy who

248
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,760
said, you know, don't follow
leaders watch the parking

249
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,360
meters, you know, from
Subterranean Homesick Blues.

250
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,760
And then here he's saying, oh,
you've got to serve somebody and

251
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,200
it may be the devil or it may be
the Lord, but you got to serve

252
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,600
somebody.
You know, understandable why a

253
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,520
boomer would be offended by
that.

254
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,440
But I'm not what I what I like
about that moment.

255
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:57,000
He's such an ornery dude.
And in some ways, the Christian

256
00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,800
phase strikes me as Dylan at his
most ornery.

257
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,200
It's not like warm fuzzy
Christianity.

258
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,800
It's kind of fire and brimstone,
like finger wagging.

259
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,680
And one thing that's interesting
to me about that song Gotta

260
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,080
Serve Somebody.
I don't write about this in the

261
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,280
book, but just the thought.
So many previous Dylan songs,

262
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,520
especially in the 60s, think of
the really ambitious songs like

263
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,520
Desolation Robe or, you know,
later Tangled Up in Blue, you

264
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,920
know, songs that are just sort
of overstuffed with images.

265
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,280
There's a kind of proliferation
in those songs.

266
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,200
More, more, more, more, more.
Add this, add that.

267
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,840
And even though they have this
structure where they always come

268
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,440
back to the refrain, like
Desolation Row at the end of

269
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:45,800
each verse, you say Desolation
Row.

270
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,960
Desolation Row is an idea gets
bigger and bigger.

271
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:54,480
It's filled with this kind of
motley carnival of figures.

272
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,360
In the Christian phase.
It goes in the opposite

273
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,680
direction, like Got to serve
somebody as a list song too.

274
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,200
OK, you may let you be being
ambassador of England or France.

275
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:06,839
You may like to gamble.
You may like to dance.

276
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:09,319
You may be the heavyweight
champion of the world.

277
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:11,160
You may be a socialite with a
long string of pearls.

278
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,440
That's like a great Dylan list.
Love that.

279
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,680
But you've got to serve somebody
now.

280
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,760
It narrows down.
All these differences don't

281
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,640
matter.
You're in one or two camps.

282
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,920
Either you are a Christian
believer or you're serving the

283
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,119
devil.
And that to me, you know, again,

284
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,520
I wasn't of the generation to be
offended by it.

285
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,440
I can observe it more as kind of
a detached listener and be sort

286
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,760
of struck by how it's kind of, I
don't know, punk rock, born

287
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,040
again Christianity, even though
I have no investment.

288
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,440
Like I say, I'm not a believer,
but I can also understand for

289
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,000
people who are believers in of
different faiths, like you might

290
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,640
be like, yeah, not for me.
I mean, I'm curious for you how

291
00:17:53,640 --> 00:18:02,720
you feel about those records.
So they I think I was not

292
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,560
musically prepared to hear them
at the time that I was listening

293
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:13,680
to them is what I'll say.
And the and in recent and since

294
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,320
since you and I have been
scheduled to speak, I have been

295
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:22,600
listening back on them and the
music speaks much more to me.

296
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:28,360
There is Dylan, the way that
Dylan, and we're going to talk

297
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:34,000
about this for sure, but the way
that he uses his voice as a as

298
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,160
an instrument to set a tone and
to set urgency and to set

299
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,040
certain degrees of I don't want
to call it, you know, like he's

300
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,800
he's sounding the alarm.
He's he, he, he, he's biting,

301
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,720
almost think it's a very biting
type of of voice.

302
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,880
It sounds like he's chanting,
he's trying to channel

303
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:57,000
something, you know, And so I
don't know if I, I love it as

304
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,920
something to consume as much as
I'm appreciating where he's

305
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:01,840
coming from.
And I and I appreciate the

306
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:08,120
intentionality behind it.
And I think that, you know, one

307
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:11,600
mistake that I used to make was
I would go throughout his albums

308
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,440
and I'd be like, oh, there's
Maggie's farm again.

309
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,600
Oh, there's Lei Lady Lei again.
And I'll just go to the song and

310
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,440
and then and then, and then, you
know, and then these songs would

311
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,040
pop up again every now and then
in these new albums and like,

312
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,280
whoa, like this is not the same
song.

313
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,960
And, and, and, and The funny
thing for me is that I shouldn't

314
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,120
have made that mistake because
the way I started listening to

315
00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:34,360
Dylan to begin with was I
couldn't stand his voice like I

316
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:36,280
mentioned.
And then I listened to the

317
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,080
Buddha can album from 78 and I
was like, oh, this I could

318
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,520
listen to.
And then I found, and then the

319
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:48,040
next more palatable version for
me was, was blood on the tracks.

320
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,760
I found his voice and, and then
I was able to kind of ease my

321
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,200
way into the rest of it, but I
had to.

322
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,960
But when I heard the Mr.
Tambourine man in Budokan and I

323
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,640
heard the Mr. Tambourine man,
you know, in another, in another

324
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,040
version, like, Oh my God, like,
you know, how does anyone like

325
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,480
this stuff?
So it's, it's, it's really cute.

326
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,440
It's really cool.
You had kind of the opposite

327
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,760
reaction of most fans to live at
Budokan.

328
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,200
That was a hated, hated record
at the time.

329
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,680
Yeah, it's got a it's got a big
band.

330
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:19,840
Yeah.
I, I think I might have

331
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,320
mentioned this to you when we
talked on the phone.

332
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:29,480
This was a tour that he
initially embarked on because he

333
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,240
was contacted by Japanese
promoters who wanted him to come

334
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:38,160
to Japan and wanted him to play
a certain set of songs.

335
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,120
And they actually dictated the
setlist.

336
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,400
There is an anecdote, I don't
know if it's true, in one of the

337
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:48,360
biographies that Dylan actually
had to go, like, buy a copy of

338
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:53,360
his lyrics book to remind
himself about how these songs

339
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:57,520
went.
But what's so characteristic of

340
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,600
him is he's like, OK, so you
want me to do Don't Think Twice,

341
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,640
It's all right, For example.
Well, you didn't tell me how to

342
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,640
do it.
And so he does the reggae

343
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,560
version of Don't Think Twice.
It's all right.

344
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:09,840
Which, by the way, I thought was
awesome.

345
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:15,120
I loved that one.
He was kind of like, yeah, I

346
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:18,080
mean, and.
Man, sorry, real quickly just to

347
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:23,840
throw in the love -0 no limit
that was that was most of the

348
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,880
song that could that.
That was the first time I that I

349
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,680
caught that song and I was like,
that's a.

350
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,360
Yeah.
Well, and there are people who,

351
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,840
so I have a soft spot that's
right near the Christian era and

352
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,000
that I have a soft spot for that
tour also.

353
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:45,640
But there are also some fans who
saw him for the first time then

354
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,480
and they had been, maybe
they're, you know, 18 and 1978.

355
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,080
They weren't old enough to see
him in 1965.

356
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,200
S 78 is the first time to see
him, especially people in the UK

357
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,600
talk about this.
And they're people who say,

358
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,040
yeah, those shows changed my
life.

359
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,280
They were amazing.
Even if he had this kind of

360
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,640
Vegas shtick going on, even if
he was changing the arrangements

361
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,920
like crazy.
So there has been kind of a

362
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:14,000
reassessment of that era.
What I'll also say just to one

363
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:20,280
last word on the Gospel phase
that followed, many fans just

364
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,000
adore the live performances from
that era, which I do too.

365
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,840
They are that there's a
conviction and intensity to them

366
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,880
that is so powerful.
You were talking about him

367
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,560
channeling.
There was a kind of preacherly

368
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,400
energy to it.
And a lot of those performances,

369
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,320
I think are just dynamite.
Yeah, it feel like they

370
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,520
literally feel, you know,
they're different bands that can

371
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,880
encompass different type of, you
know, environments.

372
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:53,440
And it felt, it feels like dark
grey clouds rumbling over, you

373
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,080
know, and like you hear I, I, I
mean, like it's very foreboding.

374
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:57,400
That's the word.
I think that it.

375
00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,840
And I don't know what he was
going through, what he was

376
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,560
thinking at the time.
But.

377
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:06,600
I I do digress.
It's, it's so funny what I think

378
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,960
is fun about the Buddhican thing
and what's funny about my and I

379
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,600
have this experience all the
time, right?

380
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:17,760
I'll, I'll discover my, I'll
wander blindly into a world, you

381
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,760
know, a fan world, a music
world, you know, whatever it is.

382
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,840
And I'll have a good initial
reaction to something whether I

383
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,600
like it or I don't like.
And then someone else would tell

384
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,280
me, oh, that take the best
performance of all.

385
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,760
That was his best performance,
the most famous performance.

386
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,560
And I'll hype that song up in my
head, you know, that version up

387
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,880
in my head because I'm being
told or I'm being instructed or

388
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,040
primed to prepared to like it.
And I think that one of the fun

389
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,840
things about going into
different phases of Dylan is

390
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,840
that, you know, if you go in
without expectations, if you

391
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,000
don't know, if you're like, you
know what, let's just see what

392
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,320
this album is.
And you don't expect, you know,

393
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,120
subterranean, you know, homesick
Blues and you don't you're not

394
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:56,040
expecting can't blowing in the
wind.

395
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,320
Then you might be pleasantly
surprised by what you find

396
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,600
yourself exposed to.
And then I might say, you know

397
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,040
what, maybe this reggae stuff is
pretty cool, man.

398
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,960
You know, maybe I should check
out why saxophone belongs on,

399
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,080
you know, on more albums.
Oh my gosh, it's all right, mom.

400
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,320
I'm only I'm only crying.
I'm.

401
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:17,480
Bleeding.
Yeah, that's some.

402
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,880
That's like the arena rock
version for sure.

403
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,320
I totally agree with what you're
saying.

404
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,720
And you make a really good
point, which is sometimes when

405
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,600
someone's already gotten to
something and liked it up a

406
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,800
bunch, you know, like, oh, this
is the most amazing thing you

407
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,160
have to hear.
You have to hear it, it's so

408
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:36,200
great, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.

409
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,720
It kind of doesn't leave a lot
of room for you to like discover

410
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,200
it yourself.
It's like you've already been

411
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,320
told what your response is
supposed to be.

412
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:48,560
Yes, everyone has decided this
is the best thing since sliced

413
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,800
bread, and you better feel the
same.

414
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,920
It can be hard to find your
relationship to it.

415
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,200
And with someone like Dylan,
about whom that praise, the on

416
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,240
whom that praise has been
lavished a lot.

417
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,520
It's I've also enjoyed finding
those nooks and crannies that

418
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,360
are less loved and finding ways
that I can love them.

419
00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:14,480
I think of sort of less
ambitious albums.

420
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,160
One of my favorite Dylan albums
is an album called album called

421
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:24,800
New Morning from 1970 that's
very understated and has just

422
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:30,040
some heartbreaking music on it
That is not much.

423
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,160
It's not in anyone's top 10 or
not often it would be in my top

424
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,240
ten, but that's a place where I
get to kind of let my own

425
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:43,160
enthusiasms fill the space from
the one that follows with the

426
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,720
band Planet Waves, same sort of
thing.

427
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,360
Not anyone's favorite, but I
quite like it.

428
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,720
There are those who gravitate
toward the 80s albums.

429
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,320
There are several 80s albums
that are really hated and one is

430
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,240
called Empire Burlesque that has
the best reputation of any of

431
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,160
the mid 80s albums.
But still most people don't like

432
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,080
it.
It's got super 80s production

433
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,240
and there's a guy named Ray, Ray
Padgett personally.

434
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,360
Sure, a lot of people could.
There's a guy, a big guy in

435
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,000
Dylan world now called Ray
Patrick, who has a blog that a

436
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,960
lot of people follow or Sub
Stack, I should say.

437
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,840
And he loves Empire Burlesque,
did a whole series of episodes

438
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,040
on Empire Burlesque.
So.

439
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,000
But you know, if you don't love
80s Dylan, you're in good

440
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,920
company.
Yeah, Bob Bob Dylan doesn't love

441
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,160
80s Dylan either.
And he, you know, talks about

442
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,840
how he just felt like a has been
and that he was lost.

443
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,320
There are several low points in
the 80s.

444
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,280
Live Aid is 1.
Also a very bad performance at

445
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:47,720
Live Aid.
Yeah.

446
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,120
What?
What was going on there?

447
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:52,920
Oh, he's he's accompanied by
Keith Richards and I think

448
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,000
Ronnie Woods of The Rolling
Stones, but playing acoustic

449
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,320
guitars.
If Emery serves, which you don't

450
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,280
want to see Keith Richards and
Ronnie Woods playing acoustic

451
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:02,680
guitars.
I mean, it's like not their

452
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:08,960
thing.
Dylan was in poor voice, seemed

453
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,880
for someone who in so many
contexts could seem larger than

454
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,920
life, seemed small and frail and
uncertain.

455
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,480
It's a really shaky set.
But having said all that, there

456
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,960
are absolute gems in the 80s
too.

457
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,440
The song Blind Willie McTell,
which I talk about in the book,

458
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,920
many people feel is one of his
best songs.

459
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,040
I agree another song I talk
about Brownsville girl

460
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:43,800
extraordinary long stem Winder
of a song from 1986, some

461
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,160
unreleased songs, a song called
Angelina that I love Caribbean

462
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:52,720
wind that I love.
But you know then a lot of share

463
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,760
to middling.
I should mention one thing that

464
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,760
Dylan fans are super excited
about at the moment.

465
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,640
The real, like Trainspotting
Dylan fans, is that he has

466
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,040
revived A beloved song from O
Mercy from the 80s on this

467
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,440
current leg of the tour song
called Men in Long Black Coat,

468
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,280
which he hasn't performed for a
long time.

469
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,480
And I saw him do it a few weeks
ago and it was I, I was ready to

470
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,320
be disappointed.
Like, well, it's such, I love

471
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,640
that song.
Everyone's excited about it.

472
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:22,880
It's probably going to
disappoint.

473
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,400
Sometimes that happens.
I saw him do, for example, The

474
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,240
Man and Me years ago, which was
the classic song.

475
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:30,920
People Know It from The Big
Lebowski I.

476
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,880
Was going to say.
Big Lebowski, and he doesn't

477
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,240
play that much and I saw him do
it.

478
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,000
And so, yeah, on like my life
list of Dylan songs, like a

479
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,440
birder, you know, a lot of Dylan
fans are like birders.

480
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,360
They've got their life lists.
I can check off the man in me.

481
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,200
But it was horrible.
It was so uncertain, forgetting

482
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,160
words.
I think Donny Herron even played

483
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,000
trumpet on it.
I'm not certain about that.

484
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,560
Don't quote me, but I just
remember it being a train wreck.

485
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,160
But Man in the Long Black Coat a
couple weeks ago absolutely

486
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,360
exceeded my expectations.
It was the highlight of the

487
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,480
night for me.
I think that I think that the

488
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,080
way that Dylan plays and I think
that the way that a lot of

489
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,600
people would describe typically
jam music is you just just a

490
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,560
mixed bag.
There's going to be times where

491
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,520
you're there for magic and
you're going to and and then

492
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,080
there's going to be something
incredible that emerges out of

493
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,920
the, you know, the circumstances
of the audience and the

494
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:32,760
performers and and and Dylan
himself and something that just

495
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,800
strikes a particular type of
chord in an emotional real way

496
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,120
at a certain point that you just
want to be there for.

497
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,760
And then there are times where
it doesn't work and, and you

498
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,920
have to be OK with that.
And part of what this like whole

499
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,160
fandom is.
And the reason why people do are

500
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,040
willing to travel and, and, and,
and keep up with them is because

501
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,560
it's worth that experience for
the one time that you get that

502
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,040
magic.
When you're there for that one

503
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,160
jam, you're there for that one
killer performance that keeps

504
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,560
you going for five more shows.
You just hope to get that one

505
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,760
more like that, you know, so.
Yeah, that's a.

506
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,200
That's such a.
Yeah.

507
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:11,040
Such a good point.
There are a lot of Dylan fans

508
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,920
who feel this way.
Now I will say among the like

509
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,320
hardcore, the tendency is much
more to say, boy, the whole show

510
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,320
is amazing except for these
couple songs.

511
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,640
But there are many who will say,
you know, what I'm really

512
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,480
waiting for is that moment when
it locks in, where it suddenly

513
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:36,440
seems like voice instruments and
words lock in and some new

514
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,880
meeting, new meaning is
activated in that line or

515
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,360
something comes alive and
resonates emotionally.

516
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,840
And for some people to say,
yeah, it really wasn't until the

517
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,960
5th song.
But then that happened.

518
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,880
And we maintained that plateau
for a while.

519
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,480
And then maybe I think Dylan
himself would also agree very

520
00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:01,680
much with this, that he is an
absolutely restless and

521
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,840
experimental performer more than
I.

522
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,640
I don't use the word
improvisation too much, even

523
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,880
though in the literal sense that
is what he does.

524
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,800
I don't use it primarily because
it's really associated with

525
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,080
jazz, and then it's associated
with people like the Grateful

526
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,160
Dead, where it means a
particular thing about a certain

527
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,960
kind of adventurous instrumental
exploration.

528
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,480
He just doesn't really do that.
He changes shit all the time, so

529
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,040
he's always messing with, with
arrangements and whatnot.

530
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,120
But you know, the, I guess what
I'm getting toward is a word

531
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,760
that I like maybe more than an
improvisation is experiment.

532
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:47,000
He's an experimental musician,
and experiments fail as well as

533
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,760
succeed, right?
They sometimes flop and

534
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,400
sometimes you try something and
it doesn't work.

535
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,280
And I think he's really
basically at peace with that.

536
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,280
A bargain.
Like to get the magic, you've

537
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:08,360
got to be willing to fail.
And without opening up to that,

538
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:15,560
you're going to have stiff,
overly arranged routine

539
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,960
performances.
And routine is something that he

540
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,160
seems just simply allergic to at
some level.

541
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,880
Although, you know, set lists in
the last couple decades have

542
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,400
gotten much more fixed, but
still he's changing arrangements

543
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,680
constantly, so.
And that's what keeps, that's

544
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,440
what breathes new life into it
for sure.

545
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,200
But I, I think for sure, I, I
venture to say this as I mean,

546
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,960
I, you know, I play open mics
every now and then and I've done

547
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,040
a lot of public speaking in
College in particular.

548
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:49,760
And I've got to say that even
the failures and when it with

549
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,280
open mic, for sure, it happens
more often because I'm a lot

550
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,360
less confident in my playing as
I am in my public speaking.

551
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,360
So I'm a little bit more tense
to begin with and a little bit

552
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,960
less confident.
There's something fun about

553
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,720
failing too.
There's something fun about

554
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,640
getting up there and trying to
song and be like, oh shit, that

555
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,040
did not work.
And I'm like, you know, there,

556
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:10,880
there's a time I play.
I tried.

557
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,680
I tried because I'm a I'm also a
Springsteen.

558
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,480
Not and during actually, I'm
sure you're familiar with this

559
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,560
era when Springsteen is playing
late 80s chimes of freedom a

560
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,000
lot.
And he was also playing that

561
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,240
acoustic Born to Run, which is
basically just a bunch of

562
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,560
downward strums.
And that was it, you know, and,

563
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,320
and it was just a beautiful
empty acoustic sound that

564
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,400
Springsteen does so well, like
that ghost kind of haunted sound

565
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,520
and like a creaking in the
attic.

566
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,280
And I love it.
And he and I tried playing that

567
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,440
and I got off and I'm like, I
didn't hear that.

568
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,440
I was like you.
Cannot hear that.

569
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,560
You know, but like and like, you
know, you feel like you want to

570
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,360
die on one hand, and on the
other hand, you're like, well,

571
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,160
if that's the worst that it gets
and that's not too bad.

572
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,000
And, you know, yeah, I'm OK with
that.

573
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,040
Well, and you know, one thing
that occurred to me when you

574
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:09,239
were talking two things I was
thinking about comedians talking

575
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:15,480
about bombing, Sure.
And any hugely famous comedian,

576
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,639
it seems like this is something
that they almost compulsively

577
00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:20,719
share about thinking about their
past.

578
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,080
Oh, I did this one show and I
bombed so hard.

579
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,760
But you know, I think there is
an acceptance in that profession

580
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,280
that bombing is part of it.
Bombing is how you learn.

581
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,120
It's how you develop your craft.
It's all going into your

582
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,679
technique, learning about
timing, learning about crowd

583
00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:43,560
work, whatever it is.
The other thing that occurred to

584
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,159
me that I'm sure like Sirius,
Dylan fans who are listening, if

585
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:48,920
there are, are thinking with
this conversation.

586
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,679
You mentioned love -0 as a song.
There's the famous line.

587
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,679
There's no success like failure,
and failure is success at all.

588
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,520
It's a Riddle.
Like it doesn't make any sense

589
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,120
really logically.
But you know, the first part,

590
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,520
there's no success.
Like like failure seems to speak

591
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,760
to the possible virtues of a
kind of shambolic performing

592
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,600
style, which is what he has.
The best things are going to

593
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,280
come out through sort of trip,
stumble and fall happy

594
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,520
accidents, right?
But then the second line is

595
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,560
failure is no success at all.
Also says that sometimes a

596
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,360
failure is just that, like you
tried something, it didn't quite

597
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,840
work.
OK, well, back to the drawing

598
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:34,800
board.
Let's try again.

599
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,560
Yeah, it interestingly is this.
Yeah, right.

600
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,680
For sure.
This happened in I think it was

601
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:50,880
Iowa City.
There is just a few weeks ago, a

602
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,880
couple weeks, a few days before
the show that I saw in Rockford

603
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,840
and it might not be Iowa.
I'm not remembering now for

604
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:05,240
certain.
They started Goodbye Jimmy Reed.

605
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:08,960
Maybe I'm not remembering the
song now, but the band starts in

606
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,840
and Dylan calls them off, says
stop.

607
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,280
Wow.
And and he says like something

608
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:16,880
nasty.
I would be like, Oh my God, he

609
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,200
said.
Like, play it right.

610
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,120
OK.
And then they come in and they

611
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,400
do a totally different
arrangement, like a different

612
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,960
groove and everything.
And I don't know if it's that

613
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,680
they started off trying some
experimental groove and it just

614
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,560
didn't gel.
And then it's like, let's go

615
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,760
back to the way we rehearsed it.
That could be.

616
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,160
Or if it was something else, it
was such a strange moment.

617
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:42,240
But he's willing in that moment
on stage to say, oh, halt, yeah,

618
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:44,480
let's try that again.
Doesn't happen often.

619
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,600
That was an unusual moment.
And to be clear, these band

620
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:54,000
members, it's not like they hang
out with him much, right?

621
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,080
There's a guy, Tony Garnier,
who's been playing bass with him

622
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,880
since, I think 1989.
He's been with him longer than

623
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,320
anybody ever.
And there have been periods when

624
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,400
I heard from someone where it's
like a year that Dylan and Tony

625
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,000
Garnier didn't even speak what
they would see to see each other

626
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,480
on stage.
And then they go to their

627
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,680
respective tour buses and that's
that.

628
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:22,240
So you know, it's he is not a
super warm and cuddly person.

629
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,080
Although I do need to share my
favorite Bob Dylan story from

630
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,120
this never ending tour era.
This comes from this guy Ray

631
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,960
Padgett from his book.
It's like worth the price of the

632
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:34,640
book alone.
This anecdote.

633
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,960
Dylan played with an African
American drummer named Winston

634
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:47,520
Watson in the 90s, and Winston
would occasionally bring his

635
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,400
daughter on tour who was young.
I'm not remembering how old,

636
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,280
maybe like a tweener or
something like that. 11 or 12.

637
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:56,920
It's, it's in race book, it
would say there.

638
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,400
And Winston was often worried,
like, she's running around and

639
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,840
Oh no, is she going to irritate
Bob and am I going to get in

640
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:15,440
trouble?
One day Dylan went into a

641
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,600
dressing room and the daughter
was in there.

642
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:24,640
And they end up talking, and
then he comes out and runs into

643
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:30,240
Winston.
And he says, OK, I don't really

644
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:31,760
have to.
Dylan voice like, we got to do

645
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,680
something about this girl.
And Winston's like, oh, shit,

646
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,280
here it comes.
I'm in trouble.

647
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,680
Like I, my, I'm in trouble
because my daughter's here.

648
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,640
And Winston starts to stammer
her thing and Dylan's like, no,

649
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,920
no, I mean this girl that's
being a bully to her at school.

650
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:53,880
Like his daughter had confided
in Bob Dylan about her, you

651
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,560
know, grade school troubles.
And Dylan in sort of fatherly

652
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,040
way was taking it on.
So I love that as sort of one

653
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:07,280
story that moves in the opposite
direction of he's a loner, he

654
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,080
doesn't talk to his band
members, He's, you know, pretty

655
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,080
inaccessible.
I thought that was a wonderfully

656
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,160
humanizing story from a dad.
For sure, for sure.

657
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,520
I think I, I, I have a very
difficult time believing his

658
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,560
reputation.
And I think, I'm sure that his

659
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:27,760
reputation is intentional and
manufactured total large.

660
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,200
And if, if you are this guy, I
mean, if I were him, right?

661
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,680
And I'm thinking about just my
own life, my own perspective.

662
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,000
And especially if you know, you
have one life, you know, you

663
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:41,840
have one career.
You know that most musicians,

664
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,480
especially throughout the course
of his career, the most

665
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,160
musicians careers don't last
their entire career, their

666
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:52,040
entire lives, right?
And the amount of sharp turns

667
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,480
that he's taken that you and I
have talking about, you know,

668
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,640
going electric folk, talking
Blues, Blues, you know, church

669
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,480
music, etcetera, is.
You know, like, it takes a

670
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:08,160
lifetime to get that music, to
be able to even get through the

671
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,360
music, forget about playing it,
embodying it, finding a band to

672
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,840
play with you, touring it.
I think that he really wanted to

673
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,880
be left alone.
And I think that he was so good

674
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,960
at what he does that he's like,
the only way to do this is to

675
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,040
just listen.
I, you know, there's, there's,

676
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,800
there's, there's the world of
schmoozing and business in

677
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,400
entertainment, and there's the
world of art and entertainment.

678
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,200
And I think a lot of people like
to get sweat.

679
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:32,560
But people like both aspects of
it.

680
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,760
But some great artists don't,
don't, you know, just just want

681
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,160
to do their art.
I think this is a a really good

682
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:41,400
point.
You said something that

683
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,880
resonated, which is he just
wanted to be left alone.

684
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:50,160
So what I don't my read on it
and this is I think probably

685
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:55,000
many people's read early on when
he first arrived in New York,

686
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:01,000
no, he wanted attention and he
had tons of ambition.

687
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:02,680
He would.
He could practically have

688
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:13,160
exploded from ambition and was
seeking fame or was seeking, at

689
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,880
least, you know, to achieve
escape velocity from this life

690
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,480
that he had in hitting
Minnesota.

691
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:25,400
But he got far more of it, far
more quickly than he ever

692
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,560
expected.
And so there's a real change

693
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,800
that happens in his attitude,
say, towards interviewers,

694
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:39,520
towards the press.
It starts in 1963 when Newsweek

695
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,880
publishes an expose showing that
he's actually a Jewish kid from

696
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,800
Hibbing, MN.
He's not someone who grew up in

697
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,040
the circus or as a hobo.
He'd lied and.

698
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:52,680
Lied and lied, making up his
past.

699
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,800
So yeah, by the way.
And endearing.

700
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,720
Sure, sure.
But he, that Newsweek thing

701
00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:02,080
soured him a bit.
Like someone did their homework

702
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,760
and went up to northern
Minnesota, and then he just got

703
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:12,080
so sick of the questions.
Oh, you're the spokesperson of a

704
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,040
generation.
You know, tell us what to

705
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,800
believe about the Vietnam War.
Tell us what to believe about

706
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,760
this.
He was always much more of a

707
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,960
musician than he was any of
those things.

708
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,040
So he hated that.
So then you get this brief

709
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:35,440
period in 65 and 66 where he
adopts this delightful kind of

710
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,880
thrust and Perry with the press.
Yeah, it was that that hasn't

711
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:40,840
had that long interview, that
black and white one.

712
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,360
Yeah, so you.
Know I'm talking about he's.

713
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,680
Yeah, well, yeah, the one in San
Francisco, which is so good.

714
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,360
He's got those sort of San
Francisco journalist hipsters in

715
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,360
the palm of his hand.
Oh, yeah, His timing.

716
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,000
I'm one of my favorites is he's
asked, you know.

717
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,680
Oh, what poets do you read,
isn't it?

718
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,200
The timing is great.
It's a long pause of smoking.

719
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:13,480
Yeah.
Rambo, WC Fields, that trapeze

720
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:19,200
family like them, Smokey
Robinson, Allen Ginsberg, like

721
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,440
this classic list of like, you
know, a couple poets in there,

722
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,600
but also a bunch of like
hilarious nonsense.

723
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,400
And they do these cutaway shots
to the press.

724
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,480
And like I say, they're hanging
on every word on the sort of

725
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,800
Stoner comedy of it.
But that's a lovely moment where

726
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,240
we're kind of in transition.
But after that, you know, he

727
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:42,200
retreats in 1966 after the
motorcycle accident.

728
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:47,480
And from there on, he's such a
truculent subject when it comes

729
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:54,120
to interviews and really can't
abide these sort of typical

730
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,800
questions.
There are a few people whom he

731
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,600
gives really revealing
interviews to over the decades,

732
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,680
and some people multiple
revealing interviews.

733
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,280
Yeah, there's this famous Round
Rosen Time interview from 1978

734
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,760
that everyone talks about the
guy Mikhail Gilmore, who tends

735
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:15,920
to get good things out of him,
but by and large, he's really

736
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,920
standoffish because then he's
like, look, this is in that

737
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:20,520
same, I think it's the same San
Francisco.

738
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:21,720
He goes.
You guys are never going to

739
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:23,720
print anyway.
There's that.

740
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,080
Well, and he also says, well,
I'm a song and dance man.

741
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,520
That's what I do.
And you know, everyone quotes

742
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,560
this as like this is him being
so Dylan esque because obviously

743
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,400
he's more than a song and dance
man.

744
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,160
You know, he wrote Desolation
Row.

745
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,920
Sammy Davis Junior didn't write
Desolation Row.

746
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,320
But there is truth in it, which
is I like to play music.

747
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,680
I like to write fancy, ambitious
words and play music that floats

748
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,640
my boat.
And don't ask me the meaning of

749
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:53,840
life.
I'm not going to tell you one of

750
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:55,680
my favorites.
And if people search it up on

751
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,360
YouTube, many people have seen
it already.

752
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,160
There's an interviewer in the
80s when Dylan is touring with

753
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:06,200
Santana and runs into them in
the parking lot of Sun Arena.

754
00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:09,120
And Santana and Dylan are there.
And they've got this interviewer

755
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:14,800
who is just this green dude who
like seems like he just got his

756
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,360
job for local news, you know,
last week and he's asking Bob

757
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,680
Dylan.
So like, so like these

758
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,360
spokesperson supposed to learn
the generation questions.

759
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,560
So what do you think about all
the the guns in, you know,

760
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:32,200
society now?
What's such a like lazy

761
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,840
question?
And what's he supposed to say?

762
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,640
Like, yeah, they're bad.
You know, I mean, there's

763
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,480
nothing good to say about that.
But Dylan sees this coming a

764
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,440
mile off and starts giving a guy
the side eye, just the the look

765
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:49,080
of the side eye is so good.
And he says, all right, guns.

766
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,200
And the guy says something like,
yeah, you know, like kids and

767
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,240
guns.
And Dylan says, you mean toy

768
00:45:56,240 --> 00:46:00,280
guns?
And he's like, well, where do

769
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,640
you think kids get them?
And he says they get them in the

770
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:10,040
toy store and the whole time
giving him this absolutely

771
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,640
withering side eye.
Like, do not ask me these

772
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,240
greenhorn questions like my pot
takes on on gun violence.

773
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:21,240
Yeah.
Yeah.

774
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,920
So there's a whole a whole
subject in itself is Dylan and

775
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,320
the press for sure.
Yeah, yeah, he but, and, and,

776
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:35,240
and it's, it's an unfortunate
reality that you need in order

777
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:37,200
to have creative independence,
you need a certain amount of

778
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,040
fame, even if you don't, if you,
even if you're not interested in

779
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:45,800
it and, you know, and, and the
more you piss.

780
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,600
And I actually don't know
anything about his relationship

781
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,200
with his agents throughout the
years, especially as his music

782
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,280
changes.
But if I know anything about the

783
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,960
business of the entertainment
world, it's that executives,

784
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:02,320
agents, studios, record labels
want what work want what have

785
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,760
historically worked, you know,
And that's why, you know,

786
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,200
there's also, there's a direct
with, with film, there's almost

787
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:11,320
always a direct correlation
between sequels making more

788
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,240
money but doing worse as far as
ratings and commercial

789
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:18,880
reception, you know, so
everyone's excited to see the

790
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,800
new content, but no one actually
likes it more.

791
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,400
And I'm, I'm, I, I, I don't know
anything about his relationship

792
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,960
with his agents or, or the
record labels, but I'm sure that

793
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,240
as he was handing in his music,
he like, he didn't want to hear

794
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:32,560
from them even.
He's like, you know, like, and,

795
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:33,720
and they were probably fighting
him.

796
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,000
You know, he's probably fighting
his entire life every time he

797
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,480
wanted to make a creative turn.
And even though the fact that he

798
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,400
was Bob Dylan, people, people
only care as long as you're the

799
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,640
Bob Dylan that is blown in the
wind or that is, you know, like,

800
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,480
like a Rolling Stone one.
Yeah, exactly.

801
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:54,640
Yeah.
I I, I think this is true with

802
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,080
us an asterisk.
What I'll say first of all, for

803
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,160
his relationship with managers
and things that he had a a very

804
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:06,120
famous big boorish manager in
the 60s and Albert Grossman and

805
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,160
and they eventually that
relationship ends in acrimony in

806
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,320
the courts, right?
But also because Albert Grossman

807
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,040
was a bruiser.
He was sort of like the the

808
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,280
Colonel Tom Parker to Dylan, a
lot of people.

809
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,400
Too not judge.
Dylan yeah, right.

810
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:29,600
Peter Palmieri and others.
But the asterisk is, is from an

811
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,080
early moment.
I feel like there was a bit of a

812
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,160
carve out for Bob Dylan with
Columbia.

813
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,000
And the carve out was this,
first of all, when he was first

814
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,880
brought on by a guy named John
Hammond.

815
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,800
And also Bruce Springsteen and
who else?

816
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,200
Oh, Aretha Franklin, Aretha
Franklin.

817
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:53,040
I mean, like this guy was like,
you know, yeah, in front of the

818
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,560
talent scare.
And so they they thought, OK,

819
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:57,800
well, John Hammond's ringing him
in.

820
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,960
Maybe it's something.
But initially, as everyone says,

821
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,120
this is part of Dylan lore.
People in Columbia started

822
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:08,200
calling Dylan Hammond's folly
because the first record didn't

823
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:13,320
do that well and no one could
see the potential in this kid in

824
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,000
the 1st.
Way Bob Dylan, right with

825
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,960
self-titled.
That's right, self-titled, all

826
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,480
covers except for two original
song to Woody and Talk in New

827
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,600
York.
So initially Dylan was viewed as

828
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,280
sort of like, well, you know,
he's not, we don't expect much.

829
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:36,560
And then Freewheel and Bob Dylan
comes out in 1963, and that's a

830
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,720
totally different story.
Moreover, Peter, Paul and Mary

831
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:41,920
have just had a huge hit with
their version of blown in the

832
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:47,080
wind.
And then Dylan very quickly gets

833
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:51,320
this reputation as a genius.
And that's the carve out with

834
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,480
Columbia, which is when he wants
to go electric, it's, well, it's

835
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,960
Bob Dylan.
When John Hammond got him four

836
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,760
years ago, we thought he was a
right, right, right.

837
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:05,160
And now look at him.
So who are we to second guess

838
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,840
like they were already getting?
I think that part of this genius

839
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,840
mythos was that.
You never know.

840
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:13,560
What he's going?
To do miss though, they only say

841
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,440
that and then there's a miss.
We knew the whole time he was

842
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,200
full of crap.
And yeah, and, and Speaking of

843
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:24,640
like Dylan lore, the miss, the
really big miss record wise is

844
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:29,400
this record from 1970 called
Self-portrait that. 3 copies of

845
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,480
that album.
Grill Marcus famously began his

846
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:33,840
review.
What is this shit?

847
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:40,440
And at that point, yeah, then
suddenly everyone was like, oh,

848
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,840
maybe he wasn't so great after
all.

849
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,840
But what it's set up then is
something that has played out

850
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:51,160
for decades, ever since, which
is rapturous reception of albums

851
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,600
that are viewed as comebacks.
Yeah, So New morning.

852
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,560
The one I mentioned comes right
after self-portrait.

853
00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:58,880
Everyone said, oh, he's back,
right, He's back.

854
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,760
This one's great.
And then Blood on the Tracks,

855
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,800
oh, my gosh, this is like the
best ever.

856
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:08,240
He's back.
And then there's a long series

857
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:12,280
of best album since Blood on the
Tracks, And I heard people say

858
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,560
that that's been going on for 50
years.

859
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,000
I heard people say that about
Rough and Rowdy Ways best album

860
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,440
since Blood on the Tracks.
So, you know, that's the cycle.

861
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,080
People are always waiting for
the next time when he catches

862
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,320
lightning in a bottle and
whether it's going to be, you

863
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,760
know, something new or something
he's already done, whatever.

864
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,880
People love that and they've
gotten used to the, you know,

865
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,400
you stick in it for the rocky
patches, you know, for the less

866
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,840
inspired records.
And by the way, I'm all for

867
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:43,800
that.
I really am.

868
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,320
I, I, I think there's something
fun about being loyal in a

869
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,040
creative way.
And I think that there's

870
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,720
something valuable even about
giving back feedback and saying,

871
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:52,360
hey, you know what?
I love you.

872
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,200
That song wasn't for me.
You know, I appreciate.

873
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:58,200
It sure I want to talk.
I want to talk to you a little

874
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,920
bit more about the music now
about there's two things I, I

875
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,400
really want to talk about #1 is
and I want you to please maybe

876
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,040
even tell me some of the
background, how you started

877
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:12,960
thinking about this, the voice
at using your voice and using

878
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,000
your words.
And we touched on this earlier

879
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:21,640
to convey different emotions,
thoughts that, and the way that

880
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,880
you put in the book was so great
that obviously not verbatim, but

881
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:30,520
that like your, your voice
embodies the words that you use

882
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,080
in the way that you say, use
those words in the way that you

883
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,320
enunciate them.
And but it contains your soul.

884
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,240
It contains your spirit.
It contains your emotional state

885
00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:43,240
and where you are and, and your
physical state and, and that

886
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:48,080
and, and one of the beautiful
benefits of having so much live,

887
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,440
you know, live albums or even
different studio albums

888
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,000
throughout the years is that you
really get to kind of tone in on

889
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,520
different versions of even the
same songs, but with different,

890
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,280
with a completely different life
to them.

891
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:01,920
So how'd you get how'd you
notice that?

892
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,120
How are you getting started on
that?

893
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,120
It was awesome.
I oh, thank you.

894
00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:08,600
I mean, one way I think about it
is words on the page or one

895
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:12,320
thing, words coming out of your
mouth are a different thing.

896
00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:15,880
You know, I used to have an
example of this just to give a

897
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:20,680
really sort of try example.
Early on in my field, it was

898
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:22,760
unusual to write a book on Bob
Dylan.

899
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:28,120
If a music theorist was going to
write about The Beatles, that's

900
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,400
a different story.
The Beatles have lots of fancy

901
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,000
chords and all the stuff that
music theorists like to talk

902
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,440
about, but Bob Dylan.
So I thought of this sentence,

903
00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:39,040
which is Steve brings us writing
a book on Bob Dylan and think

904
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,560
about all the different ways
that you can inflect that

905
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,040
depending on how you say it.
Steve Rings is writing a book on

906
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,480
Bob Dylan.
Steve Rings is writing a book on

907
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,960
Bob Dylan.
Steve Rings is writing a book on

908
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,480
Bob Dylan.
Every one of those has a

909
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:57,360
different meaning, right?
And it's entire.

910
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:58,720
It's not from the words by
themselves.

911
00:53:58,720 --> 00:54:00,800
It's from delivery.
You know, what are you

912
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,480
emphasizing?
What word are you leading,

913
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,320
leaning into?
Are you phrasing it as a

914
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,280
question?
Are you phrasing it as, you

915
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:13,280
know, exasperated or incredulous
or whatever, and you know, at a

916
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,240
much, much higher level?
That is how I think his vocal

917
00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:20,760
delivery works.
One of the things he does is, as

918
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,480
I, to use the word I used
earlier, experiment constantly

919
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:28,000
with delivery.
And the phrase that I use in the

920
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,520
book is to startle words back
into meaning.

921
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,440
These words are words for some
songs, you know all along.

922
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,160
The Watchtower now is back in
the set list.

923
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,360
This is his most performed song.
I think last I checked, it's in

924
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,400
the thousands, couple 1000 times
he's performed.

925
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,400
It's competes with like a
Rolling Stone for most

926
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,800
performances.
But talk about words that he

927
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:51,640
knows inside and out.
And that's a song that doesn't

928
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:56,960
have very many words either.
So what to do and what to do is

929
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:02,040
constantly keep shifting the
delivery to see if you can

930
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:05,480
startle those words back into
meaning and maybe startle them

931
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,520
into a meaning that's different
than the one that they had on

932
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:10,600
the record.
The inflection is more menacing

933
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:16,880
or it's more mystical or it's
more sort of ancient and

934
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:22,360
storytelling, whatever that by
shifting the inflection, we can

935
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,560
kind of spin the words this way
now, that way and see what

936
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:31,240
meanings come falling out.
One way he does this a lot that

937
00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:35,000
I talk about quite a bit in the
book is by shuttling his voice

938
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,080
along the continuum between
speaking and singing.

939
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,520
And everyone knows this about
him that he's like one of the

940
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,480
great speak singers of the post
war era.

941
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:49,720
But in fact there is a really
wide continuum and sometimes he

942
00:55:49,720 --> 00:55:54,080
is much closer to speech, but
sometimes he's also a very like

943
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:58,240
well behaved singer who's really
trying to sing the melody.

944
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,480
That was certainly true on all
those Sinatra records.

945
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,280
It's true in on bits of
Refinerati ways where he really

946
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,200
holds to the melody very
carefully.

947
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,040
Nashville, Scotland.
I feel like too Nashville.

948
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:10,720
Skyline for sure.
Beautiful.

949
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,200
And what's interesting is when
you think about that continuum

950
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:18,680
between speech and song, when
people think of their Dylan

951
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,640
caricature or when they want to
imitate Dylan, they settle

952
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,680
themselves at a very particular
point on that continuum.

953
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:31,560
It's this one that I call the
syllable emphatic style, where

954
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,080
this is like the blonde on
blonde style.

955
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,080
That's it.
That's it for sure.

956
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:43,560
Or like, what would be the The
rag man draws circles up and

957
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:45,320
down the block.
Yeah.

958
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,600
Asked him what the matter was.
But I know that he don't talk.

959
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:57,280
People do like, you know, do you
know, silver bells, Silver

960
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,400
bells, like thing like, you
know, A Christmas Carol.

961
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,800
If they're going to do their Bob
Dylan voice, they do that voice.

962
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,520
Yeah.
I because it's so it's so him

963
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,480
and so nobody else.
But the point I make is that is

964
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,960
not his only voice and it's
actually a very particular one.

965
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:18,200
It's really comes to the fore in
1966 and then Nashville Skyline

966
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,840
is 3 years after that.
John Wesley Harding is just the

967
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,200
next year.
He doesn't sing that way at all

968
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:26,240
on John Wesley Harding.
He doesn't he really doesn't

969
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,080
sing that way on Nashville
Skyline.

970
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:29,960
I heard he.
Quit smoking before Nashville

971
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,200
skyline just to get his voice
better, yeah.

972
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:35,520
Yeah, well, and also one thing
to keep in mind there, everyone,

973
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:39,680
if, if you don't know this
National Skyline voice, you most

974
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,000
certainly know Lay Lady Lay.
And so Lay Lady Lay is the song

975
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:44,920
to listen to words, voice sounds
completely different.

976
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,480
The other thing to keep in mind
there is when he recorded it, he

977
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:52,320
hadn't been touring.
So previously he was playing

978
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:57,400
concerts incessantly and sort of
blowing his voice out in rooms

979
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,640
where the moisture changes a
lot, like this room's really

980
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:02,440
dry.
And if you're pushing your voice

981
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,120
really hard, it's going to wear
your voice.

982
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:10,080
Whereas he was like a family man
in 1969 living up in Woodstock

983
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,120
and was taking care of himself
more.

984
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:17,600
And so you've got this more sort
of smooth, plummy round.

985
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:25,280
Voice Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he, he uses his what's what

986
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:30,080
the other thing that you talk
about, which is fun, is he, he

987
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:34,160
likes to pat, he likes to try to
parrot other genres and doesn't

988
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,040
try to bend the genres to
himself.

989
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,600
And you know, and obviously,
again, you have the same

990
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:41,160
example.
I brought this up actually up

991
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:42,880
yesterday.
Another conversation was with

992
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:46,720
the Grateful Dead 2 where they
they were initially a cover band

993
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,520
or The Rolling Stones or cover
band, you know, but they were, I

994
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,520
guess The Rolling Stones isn't
the best example, but that's the

995
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,040
Grateful Dead where they would
take a song and they would make

996
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:59,600
it their own as opposed to
trying to sound as close to the

997
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:04,240
original as you can get.
And he gets, you know, I think a

998
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:08,520
lot of people, if they listen to
the electric albums, Hwy. 61

999
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:12,160
Revisited and.
Bringing it all back home.

1000
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:13,520
Yes, bring it all back home.
Thank you.

1001
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,640
If you listen to the Blues
albums at that time, he does an

1002
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:23,320
incredible job replicating it.
And and So what, what, what what

1003
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:24,760
I think is funny.
Maybe we could talk about the

1004
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:28,560
different types of genres that
he has kind of gone through and

1005
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,960
actually embodied and
encapsulated he and you know,

1006
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,040
and I, and I mentioned this in
the past, the talking Blues, and

1007
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:36,880
you said, you know, that that
that's a very particular genre.

1008
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,680
And then people say when he came
to New York, he tried to sound

1009
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:41,600
like Woody Gun through.
He tried to sound like Hank

1010
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:43,400
Williams.
He tried to sound like, he tried

1011
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:45,720
to sound like anyone but
himself, you know, in a really,

1012
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:49,480
really interesting way.
Yeah.

1013
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:50,520
Tell me what you think about
that.

1014
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:52,920
What do you what do you more of
the genres that he crosses over

1015
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,360
to?
Yeah, I mean, one thing I say

1016
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,160
about trying to sound like other
people is that the more Bob

1017
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,280
Dylan tries to sound like
someone else, the more he sounds

1018
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,600
like Bob Dylan.
So one of the ways that his

1019
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,360
voice works, I think, is through
this strenuous effort of

1020
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:10,880
imitation, which just all the
more reveals the real particular

1021
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:15,520
character of his voice.
When you put Woody Got 3 and Bob

1022
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,960
Dylan side by side singing the
same song and there's an example

1023
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:20,320
on the way.
Website for the book with this.

1024
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,120
They don't sound much alike,
actually.

1025
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,120
Woody Guthrie has this kind of
okie twang.

1026
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,040
Bob Dylan's voice is much more
sandpapery at this point.

1027
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:36,760
Dylan's timing is always much
freer than Woody Guthrie's.

1028
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:41,360
For instance, he's really loose
with rhythm and syncopation and

1029
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:45,560
so forth.
But in terms of genres, you've,

1030
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,400
you've got it.
I mean, one thing to keep in

1031
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:53,600
mind is just sort of a covering
idea is that he's a musical

1032
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:57,480
omnivore.
He metabolizes and has

1033
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,240
metabolized music from so many
genres.

1034
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:06,080
He is the opposite of a purist,
which is why he had so much

1035
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:07,760
friction with the folk
revivalist.

1036
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,760
Yeah.
Who were purists to A1, at least

1037
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:15,000
to the real gatekeepers, right,
Irwin Silber and his young, you

1038
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:18,160
know, the people who are like,
you know, deciding George Wayne,

1039
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:22,840
who gets to be in Newport and
who's going to be in broadside

1040
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:26,280
and sing out and so on.
The tourism is a big part of it.

1041
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:29,120
And he was always much more of
an omnivore.

1042
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:33,720
And so, you know, he actually
kind of hid some of his

1043
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:40,240
rock'n'roll enthusiasm from in
like 196123 yeah 4 but he was

1044
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:43,120
still his first.
That that wasn't even as heavy

1045
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:44,800
rock as when he was playing with
the band.

1046
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:49,080
Of course, yeah.
But I mean, yeah, right.

1047
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,280
But all I was going to say is
like, you know, his first

1048
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:55,640
musical love is Little Richard.
And, you know, Little Richard is

1049
01:01:55,640 --> 01:02:01,920
going to be just like miles away
from Pete Seeger in the Folker

1050
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:06,640
in Greenwich Village in 1961.
So he hid that, but still it

1051
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:08,320
came out.
In this playing, there's kind of

1052
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:11,080
rhythmic propulsion.
But yeah, then what?

1053
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:15,480
He switches to playing with Mike
Bloomfield and members of the

1054
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,440
Paul Butterfield Blues Band in
in Newport 1965.

1055
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:21,680
So when you're talking about
Blues musicians and him sounding

1056
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:25,040
like them, he had some of them
on stage with him in Newport.

1057
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,240
Or then he plays with the band
who had cut their teeth playing

1058
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:31,560
with Ronnie Hawkins and
rockabilly circuits in the 50s

1059
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:37,360
and 60s.
He picks up other generic points

1060
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,400
of reference.
One thing that's interesting,

1061
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:46,600
There's a moment in 196566 when
radio format people are trying

1062
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,080
to figure out what genre Bob
Dylan is.

1063
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:51,920
The electric Bob Dylan.
The earlier 1 is like, we call

1064
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:55,120
that folk, OK, Even though
that's a super complex and

1065
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:58,320
fraught term.
Yeah, but they didn't know what

1066
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,880
to call like a Rolling Stone.
And so they settle on the label

1067
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:06,760
Folk Rock, which Dylan hated and
really is much more of an

1068
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,120
apartment term for the birds.
Yeah, I was going to.

1069
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:10,920
Say that sound.
Like that folk rock?

1070
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:12,840
It doesn't.
Sound like it.

1071
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:14,560
That's right.
It's I think of it as sort of a

1072
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:17,680
West Coast genre.
It's a little more laid back or,

1073
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:22,440
or Laurel Canyon or the birds.
It's kind of chiming and, you

1074
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:28,760
know, optimistic.
Yeah, it's Bob Dylan was always

1075
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:33,240
much closer to Chicago Blues.
Yeah, And it's much more of that

1076
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:38,600
raw energy.
It's much more ramshackle than

1077
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:40,320
the birds are.
The birds are tidy.

1078
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:45,000
Cross Basil's Nash super tidy.
Like no vocal harmony misplaced

1079
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:49,560
everything in its place.
Kind of prim and proper almost.

1080
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:53,520
Whereas Dylan's electric playing
was always much looser and owed

1081
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,160
more to electric.
Loose it's more San Francisco we

1082
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,680
really if you think about it it
falls much more in line with Big

1083
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:02,640
Brother band and sure yeah
silver message you know quick

1084
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:06,800
silver and that was like that
whole that was that San

1085
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:11,920
Francisco crashing noisy but
like like garage band having a

1086
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,400
lot of fun on acid and like.
Yeah, yeah.

1087
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:20,000
I mean, I think that I think the
real influence is I probably the

1088
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,160
influence goes the other
direction.

1089
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:25,360
And that influence, Dylan, is
influencing the San Francisco

1090
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:26,120
ban.
You think so?

1091
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:28,560
Yeah, I mean, he's not.
Oh yeah, so Phil, if.

1092
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:31,560
We're thinking about if, if
we're thinking about the order

1093
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:33,560
in which like.
Right, right, right.

1094
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:35,040
Big.
Brother comes along.

1095
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:40,640
I mean, it's afterwards, but he
certainly was a connoisseur of

1096
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:44,520
chess records recordings.
He knew Howlin' Wolf recordings,

1097
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:47,440
he knew Muddy Waters and
whatnot.

1098
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:50,040
If you listen to how, and I
actually recommend doing this,

1099
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:54,240
listen to Howlin' Wolf, listen
to some like authentic 60s Blues

1100
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:58,520
or 50s Blues even, and then
listen to those albums and

1101
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:02,600
you'll be like, this is like,
that's almost like what Elvis

1102
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:06,960
did to to to rock as far as
like, you know, like being

1103
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:12,480
another race genre, everything
to personify something, but so

1104
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:14,360
close to it.
I think that's cool, right?

1105
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,240
And I think that.
Yeah, that does bring up a

1106
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:19,800
really sensitive topic, which is
a topic of appropriation.

1107
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:23,040
I talk about this a bit in the
book and it's obviously a big,

1108
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:27,280
big topic with Elvis.
You know, making music came from

1109
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:29,840
black music.
That's right, But then the white

1110
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:31,200
people make all the money,
right?

1111
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:37,160
And with Dylan, that's also the
case, although with a couple

1112
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:47,280
asterisks. 1 is that Dylan is a
true connoisseur of, let's say,

1113
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:51,800
delta Blues and electric Blues.
And what I mean by that is that

1114
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:56,560
he's not just a white boy who
wants to learn how to play

1115
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:59,560
electric guitar really well and
impress people like Eric Clapton

1116
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,120
and like, steal things from
Buddy Guy or whatever.

1117
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:08,320
He, like it was a connoisseur of
Blues lyrics as well, like

1118
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:11,800
Robert Johnson.
He thinks of his like right next

1119
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:14,680
door to TS Eliot or something.
Like this is surreal.

1120
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:17,240
It's weird.
It's minimal.

1121
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:21,480
So he really loves that.
I think his fandom is less sort

1122
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:25,160
of rapacious or appropriative in
that sense.

1123
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:28,840
He will also always say to
people, you've got to listen to,

1124
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:32,120
you should listen to Robert
Johnson, you know, don't listen

1125
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:36,160
to me.
The other thing is, you know,

1126
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:41,080
Dylan's Jewish identity is also
an asterisk.

1127
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:44,960
Like, it's not quite the same as
just like Waspy white guys

1128
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:50,400
adopting Blues music.
He comes from a group that

1129
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:54,120
hasn't always enjoyed the
privileges of whiteness in this

1130
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:56,760
country.
And so I think that that is a a

1131
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:01,000
crucial distinction as well.
It's also interesting.

1132
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:05,240
I just would like to plug that
first album, which we mentioned

1133
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:07,600
that was kind of a flop at the
time.

1134
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:11,760
I think the performances on that
album are extraordinarily good

1135
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:14,880
for a super young album.
Yeah. self-titled.

1136
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,800
Yeah, self-titled.
I have a chapter on his

1137
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,360
recording of House of the Rising
Sun on there, which I think is

1138
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:23,600
an astonishing performance.
You.

1139
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,000
Know I loved.
Yeah, yeah.

1140
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:28,760
Well, yeah.
And I mean, he does does it

1141
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:31,440
totally differently than the
folk revivalists would do it.

1142
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:37,720
The he does see the my grave is
cut clean Blind Lemon Lemon

1143
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:42,000
Jefferson.
And what I would say about all

1144
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:48,120
of these is they both show
simultaneously sincere homage

1145
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:53,200
and him swerving away that his
performance doesn't sound

1146
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:56,000
anything like Blind Lemon
Jefferson of that song.

1147
01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:59,280
You can put them side by side.
Again, they're very, very

1148
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:03,160
different.
He was accused by Dave Van Ronk

1149
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:06,280
of stealing House of the Rising
Sun, the arrangement from Dave

1150
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:09,480
Van Ronk, which he did.
But again, put them side by side

1151
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:12,000
as I do, they sound very
different.

1152
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:15,640
And there are crucial things
that Dylan does that Van Ronk

1153
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:18,960
does not do.
So that's all part of this

1154
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:23,200
dialectic of he sounds.
He's imitates others, but he

1155
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:28,200
sounds stubbornly like himself.
I love one of the my favorite

1156
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:30,279
Dylan Blues songs is It takes a
lot to laugh.

1157
01:08:30,279 --> 01:08:31,760
It takes a train to cry.
Yeah.

1158
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:36,920
And I have to say, I don't know.
We should talk about it a little

1159
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:39,120
bit.
But the movie complete unknown.

1160
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:43,319
I thought they did a really good
job actually expressing how

1161
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:48,200
attentive Dylan was 2 Blues and
like how and and how much of A

1162
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:50,439
feel he had for that rhythm.
And I thought that Timothy

1163
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:54,160
Shamalay did a really awesome
job with a lot of the mannerisms

1164
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:56,279
of that.
You know, I mean, say what you

1165
01:08:56,279 --> 01:08:59,960
will about the place and the set
and the and the sequence and

1166
01:08:59,960 --> 01:09:01,720
whatever, you know, they have to
they have to Hollywood.

1167
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:03,200
They have to make the movie
Hollywood anyway.

1168
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:07,240
But as far as like certain
aspects of Dylan, I think they

1169
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:09,920
really nailed a lot of good of
good stuff there too.

1170
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:14,560
And he's coming up with that
with that tune for that, for it

1171
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:16,319
takes a lot to laugh.
It takes a train to cry.

1172
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:20,720
I heard it covered at a local
cover band, you know, the local

1173
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:23,640
at the open mic.
And I thought, and they played

1174
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:25,600
it was a four people he spent
with.

1175
01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:30,080
It was going to be similar.
I mean, kind of bluegrassy and

1176
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:32,560
was awesome Blues bluegrassy.
And then I heard the Taj Mahal

1177
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:35,399
version and I was like, Oh my
goodness.

1178
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:37,960
Like talk about breathing, you
know, breathing life into

1179
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:38,880
another type of.
Song.

1180
01:09:39,399 --> 01:09:40,160
You know, for.
Sure.

1181
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:44,880
Yeah.
I mean, so my take on the movie

1182
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,840
was initially I realized that
what I was going to have to do

1183
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:53,560
is like put my inner fact
checker on mute.

1184
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:56,560
Yep, that's right.
Just like be like, don't be that

1185
01:09:56,560 --> 01:10:00,680
person.
And really I, I, if I don't do

1186
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:04,320
that, I'm not going to enjoy the
movie because of course they

1187
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:06,120
have to take a lot of licenses.
And they did.

1188
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:10,120
I mean, I was able to do that
successfully and really enjoy

1189
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:13,120
the movie until the very last
moment when they insert this

1190
01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:17,040
Judas shout in Newport.
Those are two different moments.

1191
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:20,400
In Bob Dylan, there's a fan that
shouts Judas at him a year

1192
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:23,760
later, not quite a year later in
in Manchester.

1193
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:29,120
It's a very famous moment, and
Newport is famous all on its

1194
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:30,040
own.
You don't need to put them

1195
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:31,880
together.
It felt like gilding the Lily to

1196
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:35,800
me, and I thought they'd done
such a good job with the Newport

1197
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:39,040
set up until then.
The sound, the varied audience

1198
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:40,240
reactions, I thought it was
great.

1199
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:46,480
But in general, I so enjoyed a
lot of the movie, and the moment

1200
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:52,280
that you're reminding me of with
It Takes A Lot to Laugh, is a

1201
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:55,480
fictitious episode of this show,
which is a real show called

1202
01:10:55,480 --> 01:10:59,600
Rainbow Quest that Pete Seeger
did, where he would have folk

1203
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:02,240
musicians come on and he would
talk with them.

1204
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:04,760
It's a controversial scene in
the movie.

1205
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:08,400
It didn't happen.
And they make up, no, they make

1206
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:13,320
up a Blues musician.
And what I love about it is also

1207
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:15,000
one of the things that's
controversial.

1208
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:17,680
I think Edward Norton's
portrayal of Pete Seeger is

1209
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:23,880
amazing because he is both, he
is both sort of avuncular.

1210
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:26,480
Pete Seeger, you know, just
plain folks, we're up here doing

1211
01:11:26,480 --> 01:11:29,240
some picking and you know, we're
going to play some whatever.

1212
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:33,480
And Pete Seeger has the shadow
side.

1213
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,320
He has a shadow side that gets
angry.

1214
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:39,160
He has a shadow side that feels
very territorial.

1215
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:40,840
He has buttons that can be
pushed.

1216
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:43,960
Woody Guthrie was great at
pushing Pete Seeger's buttons

1217
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:46,480
because Pete Seeger wanted to be
just plain folks.

1218
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,640
But he went to Harvard and his
dad was a famous composer and

1219
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:52,120
Esther musicologist and so
forth.

1220
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:54,680
Like he was sort of he, he was
not Woody Guthrie.

1221
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:56,400
He was not salt on the earth,
but he wanted to be.

1222
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:58,200
Woody Guthrie knew how to push
his butt.

1223
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:00,360
How?
Does it feel right?

1224
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:05,480
But this Rainbow Quest scene,
you got this Blues guy come in

1225
01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:10,280
there and what is controversial
and I think rightly so, is he's

1226
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:13,080
got a bottle with him.
And so people say, oh, this is

1227
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:15,520
such a racist portrayal.
Like the of course the black

1228
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:19,200
Blues musician is drinking.
But what I love is that he

1229
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:21,400
offers a drink to Pete Seeger.
And it's how Pete Seeger

1230
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:25,040
response, although, you know,
just a family show or something

1231
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:28,640
like that, which I thought is so
like in keeping with, look, I'm

1232
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:31,760
just one of the people, but
actually, you know, I don't want

1233
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:34,640
to drink with them.
You know, that that's, like, not

1234
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:37,920
genteel.
So then what happens is Bob

1235
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:40,800
Dylan walks in again.
None of this happened IRL.

1236
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:44,600
And I thought, OK, let's see if
they get this right.

1237
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:50,040
Because we have seen by that
point, a couple hours or hour

1238
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:52,640
and a half of Dylan being an
asshole over and over again,

1239
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:57,640
being an asshole to women, to
other musicians.

1240
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:01,120
Yeah.
And I was like, OK, but he would

1241
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:03,200
not be that way with this
musician.

1242
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:08,840
He would be respectful.
He would have, like, eyes on him

1243
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:10,480
to see how he's playing those
chords.

1244
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:12,840
How would he do it?
And that's how they did it.

1245
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:17,800
And so I thought even though it
was fictitious, I thought it

1246
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:19,920
really captured it.
And what he does is then start

1247
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:22,200
to improvise the lyrics to It
Takes a lot to laugh.

1248
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:28,280
There's an Italian phrase that I
love, which is sino navero, a

1249
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:32,000
dentrovalto, which means if it's
not true, it should have been,

1250
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:36,560
or if it's not true it it very
well could be.

1251
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,240
And I think that's the case with
that scene.

1252
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:43,920
I think it's really well done.
We actually have documented how

1253
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:47,440
Dylan wrote that song.
It's part of this huge bootleg

1254
01:13:47,440 --> 01:13:53,520
series called The Cutting Edge,
about 196566 recording sessions.

1255
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:56,600
And you can really hear that he
and the band really struggled to

1256
01:13:56,600 --> 01:14:01,120
find a groove for that and tried
various different ones.

1257
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:05,760
And then I think they broke for
lunch and he stayed at the

1258
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:10,640
upright piano and found that
sort of slow, bluesy shuffle

1259
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:12,480
that ended up being on the
record.

1260
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:15,560
Yeah, that's why I've been
playing guitar for the last

1261
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:17,600
five, you know, five years and
I'm getting better.

1262
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:21,000
And I and I've, I've always had
a love for piano, probably more

1263
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:23,000
than guitar, but guitar is
always a better instrument to

1264
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:24,960
learn because it was more
accessible and I could take it

1265
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:28,280
with me and whatever.
And, and one of the things I

1266
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:32,040
noticed is all my favorite
singer songwriters write their

1267
01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:35,440
best songs on piano and then
transmuto over to guitar.

1268
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:38,600
And I'm like, I got to get
myself a freaking, you know, I

1269
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:40,640
got, I got to take six months.
Yeah.

1270
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:43,080
And I got to get a keyboard and
I got to figure out how to do

1271
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:45,200
this.
I I, I, I also wanted to circle

1272
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:48,440
back before we talk about covers
a little bit and, you know, and

1273
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:51,440
which I think is really
important too, especially in the

1274
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:55,160
Dylan fan world.
Going back just briefly to

1275
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:57,760
because I meant to bring this up
a bunch of times about Dylan

1276
01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:01,400
rejecting the, you know, society
and using his voice to do it and

1277
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:07,000
lyrics and everything.
The song I shall be free earlier

1278
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:09,520
songs.
That is just absolute lunacy.

1279
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:13,160
And he sings it like a lunatic
and he plays it like a lunatic

1280
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:15,760
and he laughs in the middle of
it and like he does all this

1281
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:18,960
crazy stuff.
And this came, you know, at a

1282
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:21,840
point where he was at his, you
know, it was his hero.

1283
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:24,640
He was this folk hero.
He was this anti war hero.

1284
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:28,040
He was this anti nuclear hero.
He was the one that spoke out

1285
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:29,680
against the leaders.
And then he comes out with his

1286
01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:31,960
goofy song and is like, Yep.
Don't.

1287
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:35,400
Take anything I say seriously.
She's got a gobblegook on her

1288
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:37,040
head.
I was half drunk, you know, I

1289
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:38,800
was two quarters drunk.
She looked half fine.

1290
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:45,640
Yeah, And that just happened to,
in addition to his sort of

1291
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:49,560
shaking off the yoke that's been
placed on him of being a

1292
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:53,720
generational spokesman, it also
captures something about the

1293
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:55,760
early Dylan, which is he had
great comic timing.

1294
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:58,320
He was very funny.
People often compared him to

1295
01:15:58,320 --> 01:16:00,320
Charlie Chaplin.
And you can hear it really

1296
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:03,720
clearly on a song like that or
in his talking Blues where he's

1297
01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:07,120
got this droll timing that's
very much like Woody Guthrie

1298
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:10,120
there.
The other song I think about

1299
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:14,960
that is very much shaking off
that burden is Maggie's Farm.

1300
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:17,240
It's something going to work on
Maggie's farm no more.

1301
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:21,000
I try my best to be just like I
am that everyone wants you to

1302
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:22,200
be.
Everyone wants you to be just

1303
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:24,440
like them.
Yeah, they say sing while you

1304
01:16:24,440 --> 01:16:26,360
slave.
And I just get bored.

1305
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:28,160
I ain't going to work on
Maggie's farm no more.

1306
01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:32,440
I mean, it's like you can't
quite get it more explicit than

1307
01:16:32,440 --> 01:16:34,000
that.
And that, of course, is the very

1308
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:36,200
first electric song that he
plays at Newport.

1309
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:39,000
Right.
So both that song and I Shall Be

1310
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:42,400
Free are actually based on
earlier songs from different an

1311
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:43,880
artist.
He would do this a lot, sort of

1312
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:45,320
rework.
And there's a song called

1313
01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:48,880
Penny's Farm that Maggie's Farm
is based on and so forth.

1314
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:53,200
But yeah, these were moments
when he was really pushing back.

1315
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:56,520
Yeah, yeah.
And now As for covers and again,

1316
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:58,840
to kind of build on everything
that we've that we talked about

1317
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:01,920
when Dylan says, and Dylan said
this about, I think Garcia,

1318
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:06,920
after you heard him play, it's
all over now, baby blue, because

1319
01:17:08,320 --> 01:17:11,120
you know, again, you have such a
massive library and you're

1320
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:13,240
putting out all this music and
you're going all these different

1321
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:16,400
creative directions and, and
everyone's yelling at you and

1322
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:18,240
you're getting this feedback and
people are trying to get your

1323
01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:19,880
attention.
Then you hear a song that you

1324
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:22,680
played, that you wrote, played
in a different and you always

1325
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:25,440
again, like, like you say that
Bob Dylan is always changing up

1326
01:17:25,440 --> 01:17:28,920
the arrangements and then he
hears Jerry Garcia play.

1327
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:31,440
It's all over now.
Baby Blue is like he brought out

1328
01:17:31,440 --> 01:17:33,600
something that song that I
didn't even know existed.

1329
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:38,960
And one of the things that I,
that people ask me what I love

1330
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:41,240
about Bob, when I, when I talk
about Bob Dylan's lyrics like

1331
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:42,480
this doesn't make any sense to
me.

1332
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:44,520
I'm like, it doesn't have to,
you got to listen to what he

1333
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:45,680
said.
You have to feel what he's

1334
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:50,080
saying because a lot of times
the words themselves don't mean

1335
01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:51,720
anything.
It's the way that you're going

1336
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:55,400
to present it and interpret it
and you're going to and and what

1337
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:59,400
exactly is his words are
incredibly visual.

1338
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:02,000
So what what what's popping out
at you is popping out for a

1339
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:03,560
reason.
And if you're missing something,

1340
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:04,920
you're missing something for a
reason.

1341
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:09,680
And when you get when you and,
and I mean, I don't he might be

1342
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:14,560
one of the most covered solo
artists ever, if not the most

1343
01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:18,160
covered solo artist ever.
What are some versions or songs

1344
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:20,720
that you think or artists that
you think really kind of bring

1345
01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:25,600
out a an extra dimension or you
think a new side of Dylan that

1346
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:29,280
that speaks to you the most?
Yeah, and so several things come

1347
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:32,600
up with what you say, and I'll
just touch on a couple that come

1348
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:34,040
up and then answer your
question.

1349
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:39,560
One that I think about Jerry
Garcia doing.

1350
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:46,800
It's all over now.
Baby Blue, that's one of Dylan's

1351
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:49,560
breakup songs.
Don't Think Twice is 2.

1352
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:51,240
It Ain't Me.
Babe is 2.

1353
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:54,160
The turtles covered that, I
think, Right?

1354
01:18:54,160 --> 01:18:56,520
It ain't me, babe.
Yeah.

1355
01:18:56,520 --> 01:18:57,840
I mean the same thing as I,
Yeah.

1356
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:02,880
Right.
Yeah, it's got that sound, but

1357
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:07,680
it's all over now.
Baby Blue is an angry song.

1358
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:11,000
Among other things.
You must leave now.

1359
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:12,480
Take what you need.
You think will last.

1360
01:19:12,480 --> 01:19:14,840
Whatever we should keep you
better grab it fast.

1361
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:17,120
He understands you're orphaned
with his gun, etcetera.

1362
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:20,640
What?
I that have really come to

1363
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:23,240
appreciate about Jerry Garcia
over the years is he's a really

1364
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:26,760
vulnerable actor.
His voice has a vulnerability.

1365
01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:30,600
I think as a person he's playing
as a person.

1366
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:38,160
He is a tragic figure who became
the leader of this organization.

1367
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:41,440
There's that employed I'm sure
hundreds of people by the 80s

1368
01:19:42,480 --> 01:19:44,840
and was addicted to heroin and
like couldn't.

1369
01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:46,800
Responsibility killed him, the
responsibility, the

1370
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:51,240
responsibility killed him.
And I hear a lot of that in his

1371
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:54,680
voice, in the tremulousness of
his voice, in the vulnerability

1372
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:57,520
of his voice.
And so he brings something new

1373
01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:01,280
to it's all over baby blue.
It's all over now baby blue that

1374
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:03,480
Dylan doesn't.
Dylan's really good at anger.

1375
01:20:03,840 --> 01:20:06,520
And, you know, sometimes he does
vulnerability, but not like

1376
01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:08,600
Jerry Garcia.
So that's one thing I think of.

1377
01:20:09,280 --> 01:20:12,000
The other thing I think of when
you talk about him saying, oh,

1378
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:13,240
you brought out something in the
song.

1379
01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:16,000
I never knew it was there.
There are instances where a

1380
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:20,080
Dylan song is covered.
And the cover eclipses the

1381
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:21,800
original.
I mean, there's one.

1382
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:23,760
Famous all.
Along the Watchtower is the

1383
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:26,520
famous one with Jimi Hendrix's
version.

1384
01:20:27,480 --> 01:20:33,240
And what's interesting there is
Dylan, essentially ever since

1385
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:36,360
then covers Jimi Hendrix's
version of All Along the

1386
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:40,000
Watchtower live in concert.
Yeah, I mean, actually right now

1387
01:20:40,000 --> 01:20:42,920
he's playing it, and now it's
actually a little held back.

1388
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:47,000
So it sounds a little bit less
Jimi Hendrixi than it did in

1389
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:49,880
previous decades.
But yeah, I mean, it's the

1390
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:52,880
definitive version of that song.
I think even Bob Dylan would

1391
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:56,240
agree.
If you go back, this is my last

1392
01:20:56,240 --> 01:20:57,760
point, and then I'll get to
other people.

1393
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:03,880
I like covering Dylan.
Dylan first becomes known in

1394
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:08,680
1963, not through his own voice,
but through Peter, Paul and

1395
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:10,680
Mary.
Well, and yeah, eventually John

1396
01:21:10,720 --> 01:21:13,200
Baez, right?
But Peter, Paul and Mary

1397
01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:15,960
especially, who sound nothing
like him, you know, they're very

1398
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:22,040
pure voiced and so forth to the
point that Columbia records, he

1399
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:25,480
even had to do some special
pleading and the line was nobody

1400
01:21:25,480 --> 01:21:28,760
sings Dylan like Dylan.
This is before he's even that

1401
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:30,320
famous.
It's they're talking about him

1402
01:21:30,320 --> 01:21:32,720
like he's already famous, but
they're saying, no, actually,

1403
01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:36,360
you've heard these sort of Lily
white Peter, Paul and Mary

1404
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:38,840
versions.
You've got to hear him do it.

1405
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:42,200
So already from the very
beginning, there was a tension

1406
01:21:42,200 --> 01:21:46,120
between covered versions of his
songs and his versions of his

1407
01:21:46,120 --> 01:21:50,480
songs.
In terms of artists that I

1408
01:21:50,480 --> 01:21:54,440
really like covering, Bob Dylan,
a few come to mind.

1409
01:21:55,240 --> 01:21:57,520
Nina Simone is the biggest, I
think.

1410
01:21:57,520 --> 01:22:00,920
Nina Simone, Oh, she covers just
like a woman.

1411
01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:03,480
Amazingly.
She covers the Ballad of Hollis

1412
01:22:03,480 --> 01:22:05,520
Brown.
She does her handful songs.

1413
01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:09,320
Yeah, yeah, I think she does
about 5, and I'm not going to

1414
01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:10,760
come up with all of them right
now.

1415
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:13,800
OK, no problem.
But her Just like a Woman is

1416
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:16,560
super.
And especially for a song that

1417
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:22,600
has such misogynistic overtones,
to hear her sing it with such

1418
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:26,520
pathos is really remarkable.
It flips the script.

1419
01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:33,120
I love what I would call slant
covers.

1420
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:37,560
Covers that are really
unexpected and go in a weird

1421
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:40,000
direction.
My favorite slant cover is

1422
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:44,680
probably Bryan Ferry's version
of Hard Rain.

1423
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:48,600
So Bryan Ferry was the singer
for rock scene music in the 70s

1424
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:53,440
and sort of like a crooner.
Very camp and queer.

1425
01:22:54,120 --> 01:22:56,560
I actually don't know if Bryan
Ferry's actually queer, but the

1426
01:22:56,560 --> 01:23:03,360
image was like very camp and he
does this kind of art Euro pop

1427
01:23:03,360 --> 01:23:07,440
version of Hard Rain that is not
even remotely reverent.

1428
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:12,720
It's up tempo.
It's like it's a show tune or

1429
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:14,560
something.
I think that is great.

1430
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:18,560
I love it because it's so
disrespectful.

1431
01:23:18,760 --> 01:23:23,200
And Dylan around that time as
being similarly blasphemous with

1432
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:26,200
that song.
In 1975, he's performing it as a

1433
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:28,520
Roadhouse Blues on the Rolling
Thunder review.

1434
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:35,240
And I think in part that is to
like, like, get rid of its kind

1435
01:23:35,240 --> 01:23:39,800
of sacred text reputation.
Yes, I know this is a song we

1436
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:42,920
can do totally differently, but
Bryan Ferry's version does that.

1437
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:45,640
I'm also really fond and I'm
not, I'm not going to be able to

1438
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:47,280
come up with the name of the
band.

1439
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:51,960
There is an Italian band that
does like a Rolling Stone.

1440
01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:56,520
It's over the first scene in
Masked and Anonymous, and it's

1441
01:23:56,520 --> 01:24:00,360
like a Rolling Stone in Italian
and it's sort of hip, hoppy and

1442
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:07,120
it's absolutely dynamite, so.
My I, I, I've heard like from

1443
01:24:07,360 --> 01:24:10,280
like a Rolling Stone from John
Mellencamp.

1444
01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:17,080
I thought was OK, pretty good.
I loved the the the Jimi Hendrix

1445
01:24:17,080 --> 01:24:19,360
from Montdrie like a Rolling
Stone.

1446
01:24:19,440 --> 01:24:23,120
I think that was I like that one
more than I like his.

1447
01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:26,920
I like that more than I liked
his along the watchtower, I

1448
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:30,680
think, but and Springsteen's I
can't recommend this song

1449
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:32,400
enough.
The Springsteen version of

1450
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:35,760
Chimes of Freedom, especially
compared to the Dylan studio

1451
01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:38,880
version or most of his versions
even like I there, there's

1452
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:42,560
something that Springsteen
embodies in that song so, so, so

1453
01:24:42,560 --> 01:24:46,640
well that just, it turns it into
a patriotic.

1454
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:49,440
It turns into a almost, yeah.
It's American.

1455
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:52,000
It's Springsteen.
He turns it into a Springsteen

1456
01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:54,120
song.
It's an American patriotic type

1457
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:56,560
of song.
And I actually saw that he's

1458
01:24:56,560 --> 01:24:58,680
just started replaying it on
his, on his tours.

1459
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:00,200
He brought it back into the
setlist.

1460
01:25:00,480 --> 01:25:04,760
So I, I hope to hear, I hope to
hear more of that.

1461
01:25:16,470 --> 01:25:25,680
I know, I tried learning it.
We start far between some how

1462
01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:27,840
much finish and midnight.
Broken.

1463
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:32,080
Yeah.
Under crashing.

1464
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:52,960
Love it.
Yeah, I love that note.

1465
01:26:00,740 --> 01:26:01,540
Oh, wait.
I'm sorry.

1466
01:26:01,540 --> 01:26:04,740
Hang on one second.
For some reason it says you OK?

1467
01:26:04,740 --> 01:26:05,860
I'm sorry.
Finish your train of thought.

1468
01:26:05,860 --> 01:26:07,580
I apologize.
That's OK.

1469
01:26:08,980 --> 01:26:11,580
What I think about with that
song's wordiness with regard to

1470
01:26:11,580 --> 01:26:19,660
Springsteen is for Springsteen's
first album, he was as the next

1471
01:26:19,660 --> 01:26:27,160
Bob Dylan, and it is a very the
the nods to Dylan on that album,

1472
01:26:27,480 --> 01:26:30,000
especially in.
Like drummers, bummers and

1473
01:26:30,080 --> 01:26:33,520
Indians discover with the
teenage diplomat, Yeah.

1474
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:37,760
So it's actually a little cringe
for me that that particular

1475
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:42,640
song, Blinded by the Light is
too on the nose for me, and it's

1476
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:44,520
Dylan.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1477
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:47,400
For.
Sure, the I've got this thing.

1478
01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:51,240
Arkansas, yeah, that's a.
That's a lovely song.

1479
01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:53,880
I mean, there are other songs I
like better, but I've got a

1480
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:58,840
thought about Diplomat, which
is, that's like not a

1481
01:26:58,840 --> 01:27:02,880
rock'n'roll word, right?
And it was already in like a

1482
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:05,440
Rolling Stone.
So you used to ride on a Chrome

1483
01:27:05,440 --> 01:27:08,760
horse with your diplomat.
And I sort of feel like we as a

1484
01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:12,640
culture, we get diplomat in one
rock song, and then that token,

1485
01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:15,440
that token is spent.
Like you can't really do it

1486
01:27:15,440 --> 01:27:18,320
again because it's so
characteristic and it sticks out

1487
01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:20,520
like a sore thumb.
And so as soon as he gets to

1488
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:25,080
diplomat, I'm like, oh boy.
But what I was going to say is

1489
01:27:25,560 --> 01:27:29,200
one of the ways the Dylan ISM on
that first Springsteen record

1490
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:33,400
manifest is in wordiness, like
overstuffed lines.

1491
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:37,000
Chimes of Freedom has that.
And I think it's something that

1492
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:40,280
Springsteen can plug into.
But what I'll say is that

1493
01:27:40,280 --> 01:27:44,480
Springsteen of course, found, I
would say especially, you know,

1494
01:27:44,480 --> 01:27:49,560
2 albums later, or even really
on the Wild, the Innocent V

1495
01:27:49,560 --> 01:27:51,440
Street Shuffle, he starts to
find his voice.

1496
01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:54,680
Oh yeah, certainly by Born to
Run, he's absolutely found his

1497
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:55,080
voice.
But.

1498
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:57,200
He's still worried in those
albums, by the way, If you I

1499
01:27:57,200 --> 01:28:00,600
mean, like, yeah, the music is a
lot, but if you look at back

1500
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:02,120
streets, it's wordy as hell.
I'm sure.

1501
01:28:02,480 --> 01:28:05,400
Wordy as hell, Yeah.
I mean the yeah in the wild

1502
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:10,480
innocent.
But but help me with the opening

1503
01:28:10,480 --> 01:28:13,600
of Thunder Rd. screen slams
Merry St.

1504
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:17,280
Sway, yeah.
Like a vision, she dances across

1505
01:28:17,320 --> 01:28:19,080
the porch.
That's the radio place.

1506
01:28:19,200 --> 01:28:22,200
That is not Bob Dylan.
That is Bruce Springsteen.

1507
01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:27,520
That is.
That is like cinematic details,

1508
01:28:27,720 --> 01:28:30,960
screen door slams.
Maggie's dress sways or Mary's

1509
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:31,800
dressways.
What's her name?

1510
01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:35,320
It's Mary, I think.
Mary, Yeah.

1511
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:40,240
Roy Orbison singing for the
Loneliest Me Girl, I want you

1512
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:42,320
Only.
I mean, this is Bruce

1513
01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:45,400
Springsteen.
And there he has really found

1514
01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:49,440
how he tells the story.
Or, you know, racing in the

1515
01:28:49,440 --> 01:28:52,360
streets.
Racing in the streets is not Bob

1516
01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:54,040
Dylan.
No, far from it.

1517
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:56,200
That's.
Springsteen from it, That's him.

1518
01:28:56,560 --> 01:29:00,000
And that's a song that uses
economy of means.

1519
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:04,200
Lyrically and musically, it
doesn't go over the top.

1520
01:29:04,520 --> 01:29:08,960
You know, there's stuff about
but engine in the car and you

1521
01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:11,960
know, there's like little
details, but it's not this sort

1522
01:29:11,960 --> 01:29:16,520
of like Logaria that you have on
the first album.

1523
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:19,280
Yeah.
Does this bus stop on 82nd

1524
01:29:19,280 --> 01:29:21,800
Street, I don't know if you know
that song that's also really fun

1525
01:29:22,160 --> 01:29:26,960
and that was also filled with
apparently was inspired by Van

1526
01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:32,160
Morrison's Domino and but but
stuffed with the lyrics in a

1527
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:36,440
very similar way to Dylan.
And there's a live version and

1528
01:29:36,440 --> 01:29:40,640
the studio version.
I highly recommend both because

1529
01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:43,160
the live version got the big
domino sound and then the studio

1530
01:29:43,160 --> 01:29:45,800
versions got much more of that
wordiness that you know, because

1531
01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:49,240
I mean, John Hammond signed him
on hopes that he was going to be

1532
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:51,720
in the another another Dylan.
And so he, I, I don't think he

1533
01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:54,240
had a problem with, with, with
Springsteen and the first two

1534
01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:55,800
albums being so?
Dylan asked.

1535
01:29:55,880 --> 01:29:58,360
Well, he didn't.
And that was the promotional

1536
01:29:58,360 --> 01:29:59,600
copy.
Yeah.

1537
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:01,480
The next Dylan.
And to the point that

1538
01:30:01,480 --> 01:30:04,600
Springsteen hated it and was
like tearing down signs like at

1539
01:30:04,640 --> 01:30:07,480
concerts, like.
Didn't want to be called that.

1540
01:30:08,360 --> 01:30:10,000
I need to let you know Efron,
I'm I.

1541
01:30:10,040 --> 01:30:11,600
Was about to say we have to wrap
up right now.

1542
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:14,160
I was about to say thank you so
much Steve for the time.

1543
01:30:14,160 --> 01:30:18,880
This is so much fun and you are
a wonderful source of

1544
01:30:18,880 --> 01:30:21,880
information and a wonderful
voice to present all of this.

1545
01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:23,280
This has been a ton of fun.
Thank you.

1546
01:30:23,560 --> 01:30:27,280
I so appreciate it.
It was just a real joy talking.

1547
01:30:27,840 --> 01:30:29,560
Yes, we'll be in touch again.
For having.

1548
01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:30,680
Live.
Thank you very much.

1549
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:31,680
Take care, all right?