Psychology Series 11: Joey Toledano LBA / ABA Therapy / Behavior and B.F. Skinner / Education

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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Joey.
Pop in the podcast Cherry.

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Yeah.
We're talking about, so I don't

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get, I do get nervous, but my
degree of nervousness changes

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based on how confident I am in
my particular skill.

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So I'm very confident with my
words and my ideas.

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So I'm not too worried about
public speaking.

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You know, I may, I'd be nerve
wracking getting up in front of

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a lot of people.
But like my on a, on a, on a

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foundational level, like I'm not
insecure about the about

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presenting information when I go
to open mics, I play guitar, I'm

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way more insecure and I'm way
more rigid and like I'm not

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confident in my singing or my
guitar playing as much.

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So it's a different type of
nervous.

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It's like, am I good enough
nervous as opposed to like, oh,

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there's just a lot of people
nervous.

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I think this is obviously me
being a behavior analyst, this,

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this, I look at things like how,
how behavior works, right?

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That's like, that's my, my
automatic thing.

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And it's like, how motivated are
you for the outcome that you're

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going to push through?
The hard part that that.

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Aversive like I don't want I
don't want to do this, I don't

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want to do this so like I think
that's what it comes down to so

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there's.
No video, we just volume it now.

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We'll take the video after for a
real.

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Yeah, no way.
I'm not that nervous, only a

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little bit.
Yeah, I'm not.

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Yeah, go ahead.
That's how I think that's in

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general how behavior works like.
Yeah, his motivation.

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His motivation, we could go into
the whole thing for the Ebcs,

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which is.
What?

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We're we're so just a little
background.

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I'm a behavior analyst or
certified behavior analyst.

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That's my like certification
did.

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You have to go to college with
that.

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Yeah, I have a masters in
applied behavior analysis, OK.

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And I'm actually adjunct
professor.

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Really.
Or ABA.

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No way.
I'm so jealous.

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I always wanted to be an adjunct
professor.

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I'm an adjunct high school
teacher, but that's not the same

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thing.
Well, before, before I actually

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had my masters, I used to teach
elementary school, middle

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school, yeah, also part time.
You walk out every day

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exhausted, but you're like, I
can do this again.

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Yeah, that's a great way to
describe it.

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And that's what I think.
That's what like shows you like,

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OK, this is this is, this is
your calling.

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If you could walk out exhausted
but say I'll call you back

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tomorrow.
Yeah.

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You know.
That's a great, that's a great

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way to describe it.
There's a big there's a big

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thing over there, an adjunct
professor.

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Everyone's like, why?
Sorry, there's no money in it,

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but.
It's not about money, it's fun.

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It's like setting up the next
generation of of students that

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are going to become behavior
analysts and showing them and

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you know, whatever, we'll touch
on this a little bit later, but

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there's obviously some in every
field.

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There's some I don't know.
In other words, I hate push

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back.
And some of it is rightfully so.

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And the idea is to minimize
that.

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We push back in terms of what?
So this is jumping ahead, but

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like it's very easy to become
have a rigid way of thinking,

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Yes and behaviour analysis.
Oh, OK, gotcha.

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But in that world, behaviour
analysis, is that similar to how

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like, let's say you go to a,
let's say a doctor that

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specializes in MSK stuff and
then you tell him, I have this,

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this kind of pain.
He's going to only look at it

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through his particular lens of
specialty.

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And it could be a jet, it could
be something else, but he's not

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looking at it like that.
So it's hard to think outside

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the box he's used to.
Is that the what kind of thing

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you're describing?
I wasn't describing that, but

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there's some very much a lot of
validity to that.

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Because so what's your?
What's your particular case?

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So let let me like go big
background on the science.

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Sure, a lot of people know ABA
as like autism therapy, OK.

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And now that's not at all what
it was or what it is.

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Are you familiar with BF
Skinner?

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Yeah, OK.
Yeah.

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Sure.
So he's the father, and we look

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at him as the father of ABA or
behavior analysis.

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He was a radical behaviorist.
What made him a radical

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behaviorist?
Well, what made him a

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behaviorist is he looked at
behavior, it's controllable what

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happens before it and what
happens after it.

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OK, what made him the radical
behaviorist, and I hope I'm

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right, you know this
understanding.

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And obviously, sure there may be
those that argue, but the way

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him a radical behaviorist is
that he believed thoughts in

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what we call internal events or
private events is also a

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behavior which is controlled by
what happens before and

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afterwards.
When you say OK, is that does

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thoughts equal intentions or
just any kind of like head, like

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you know anything that's going
on in your head?

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So because I know the
contentions would brings people

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closer or further from an
action, right?

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If I said something that made
you feel bad, like I really

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didn't mean that, I'm sorry.
You knowing that I didn't intend

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for that changes the behave,
changes the outcome of the

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behavior.
So I want to, I want to ask you

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that what do you consider a
behavior?

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And then I want to give what BF
Skinner definition?

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Behavior, I guess, would be a
physical manifestation of a

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drive would be a physical
manifestation of a drive of some

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sort.
It could be a conscious drive.

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It could be an unconscious
drive.

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It could be a productive drive.
It could be unproductive.

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Dr. You know, like it could be,
but like first something and

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then behavior is the is taking
that drive and your body's doing

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something about it.
So and that's that's how most

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people look at it, right?
People look at it as an actual

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what I see is a behavior like
that's what it is.

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But coming from the F Skinner
and the the science of behavior

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analysis, the science is called
behavior analysis.

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Yeah.
Now there's different parts, but

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coming from him, let me just go
through the parts of behavior

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analysis.
Sure.

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There's there's behaviorism,
There's yeah, which is like more

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the philosophical side of like
things is experimental, which is

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experimenting and like testing
it out.

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There's the applied which takes
that experimental and applies

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it, the setting.
And then there's the practice,

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which people are more familiar
with the practice and, and some

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of the applied there most people
are familiar with the last part,

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which is, which is the practice
of things.

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So they since it's based on the
science, I'm going to show the

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connection.
Why, Yeah, we have to do with

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each other what they have to do
with each other.

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So now obviously there's a
philosophy like people think

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like I think the behavior is
having happening.

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Actually, let me jump back a
step.

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I know.
It's so far, we're doing great

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so far.
To be a Skinner, what made him a

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radical behaviorist is he
believed thoughts itself is a

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behavior.
OK.

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And what we tell our students
and what I learned in college

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from our professors is the dead
man test.

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Can a dead man do it right?
A dead man could do it.

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It's not behavior.
Lying on the ground is not

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behavior, right?
Because a dead man could do it

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right.
So getting a cup of wine, can a

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dead man do it?
No, No.

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So thoughts, can a dead man do
it right?

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They can't do it right.
So it's a behavior.

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The tricky part with with with
with, with thoughts is that we

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can't see it right.
So, and when we're talking about

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a science, we're focused on
data.

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Yeah.
Because we're we're a science

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here.
Analysis is a science.

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It's not a therapy.
Now we'll talk about the therapy

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afterwards, but it's derived
from the science.

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So the science part is
data-driven, testing it out and

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experimenting.
It's all database.

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So the problem is you can't
ignore EF.

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Skinner's thing was you can't
ignore the thoughts because that

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in itself is a behavior, but you
also have to be able to take

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data on it or how So how are you
going to do that?

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That's the part of the Skinner.
That's what makes him a radical

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behaviorist.
His he he he's looked at like as

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a competition to, to Freud.
Really.

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Yeah, it's it's too, it's like,
it's psychology, but two

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different thoughts in
psychology.

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OK, I can't say I'm an expert in
Freud and his his teachings and

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stuff like that, but his things
is more.

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Subconscious.
Subconscious and all that.

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Yeah, well, we have skinners and
they're like, no, you want to

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change behavior.
You have to change your

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behavior.
Even a thought.

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If you're having thoughts that
you all want to have, you got to

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look at it from behavioral lens
and change it behaviorally.

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Right.
There's a, there's a book that I

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read called Chatter by guy Ethan
Cross, the doctor Ethan Cross, I

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met, I heard, I heard about him
on Huberman's, I heard him on

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Huberman's podcast and I bought
the book chatters about the

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voices in your head.
And how do we direct?

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Like they're up to our like we
can, we can direct them, you

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know, and so like, if something
in the back of someones head is

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I'm stressed out, I can't do
this.

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There's ways to tangibly that's
he said, why kids when they run

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around and kids repeat a process
out loud.

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So for example, if they were to
say like Shua, my son used to

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like, you know, OK, now go throw
this chocolate wrap out in the

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garbage, like throw it in the
garbage.

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And like while he's while he's
saying that out loud, while he's

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throwing it out.
And that's reinforcing that

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thought in his head.
And that's all part of like, I

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guess the extension, like that's
the voice in his head.

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And I guess you're saying that
could be an extension of his

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behavior?
You know that just to get

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distracted a little bit by the
story.

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Yeah.
But what happens is as a young

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child, yeah, they're going to
repeat that to themselves.

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The next step is they do it
quieter and quieter and quieter.

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So we're technically doing it to
ourselves, but we're not doing

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it out.
Loud, but it still works.

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When you say it out loud, like
when I'm jogging and I like this

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is fine, I got this, I got this,
I got this.

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If I say on the jog, this is
tough, this is tough, I'm going

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to stop.
You know, like I have to think

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to myself, today I was in
jujitsu and I'm by far the

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worst.
There's only three guys there.

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I'm by far the worst.
And it's a great learning

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experience because I get I
really am humbled very often.

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And and this guy had me and I'm
and I'm right there and I'm

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thinking to myself, I got to tap
out and I think to myself, let

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me just look at the clock and I
see that there's 15 seconds.

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Like I got to figure out a way
to last 15 seconds.

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And like 15 seconds when you're
seeing stars is a long time.

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But like I had to think, but I
kept on saying in my head

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thinking out, you know, 15
seconds, 14 seconds and that

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reinforcement and that like
redirecting of rather than

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focusing on I can't breathe, I'm
focusing on 10 seconds left

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changed everything, right?
Because and it's working.

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I don't know.
The idea is, and you'll see

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there is some overlap between
behaviour and analysts, which is

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like, say the certification I
have and social workers will put

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different terms to the same
thing.

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Oh yeah.
That seems ineffective,

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confusing.
It seems ineffective, but you

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can only see it if you come to
this, to the table together and

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collaborate, right, Which is
also going back to what you said

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when a doctor only sees
something through their lens,

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right.
The way to expand your lens is

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by collaborating, right?
And listening to others.

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00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,720
Yeah.
So we were talking about BF

228
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,840
Skinner.
And so it, the thought in

229
00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,960
psychology was Freud for many
years, something in the 1800s,

230
00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,040
he came along and that's what he
introduced that.

231
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,280
Yeah, there was obviously Pavlov
and and those things.

232
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,880
So BF Skinner came around in the
1900s.

233
00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:50,080
It's a relatively new science
and obviously.

234
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,160
Most of this stuff is.
Most of this stuff is but

235
00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,360
comparing 1800s Freud.
Yeah.

236
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,440
To 1900s Skinner.
You know, I had professors that

237
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,080
saw Skinner.
Alive, yeah.

238
00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,960
So yeah, you know, it's cool.
I don't have professors that saw

239
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:04,600
Freud.
A lot, yeah.

240
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:05,280
Yeah.
You know what?

241
00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,720
I mean, so it's, it's pretty
new.

242
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,680
It makes it greater.
Is it make it greater that's

243
00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:17,280
newer?
Is that what you're asking?

244
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,920
Yeah.
Like it's, it's a more like he

245
00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,920
has all the context of Freud and
then comes to his own

246
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,480
conclusions that are separate
from Freud.

247
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,640
Like he's building on the
information.

248
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,360
Well, there's something to that
because he he's not saying like

249
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,720
this is my novel idea.
When someone comes out with a

250
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,680
novel idea and they're not aware
of similar or other things,

251
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:42,240
they're not really building on
that.

252
00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:43,440
Yeah.
They're just saying that that

253
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:44,360
doesn't exist.
Yeah.

254
00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,640
Which there's no one right way.
I, I just, I really don't think

255
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,640
I agree with that, that there's
different times, different

256
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:56,240
things may be more applicable.
And, and, and if you know what's

257
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,400
what came before you, you could
build on that, right.

258
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,960
So even even I see it as a
science, you know, progresses

259
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,160
over the years, even the the
years that I've been certified

260
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:10,440
or I've been involved in the
science, I've seen it, you know,

261
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,320
take steps like, OK, we took
this data point and we're adding

262
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:15,880
we're going to build on that
data.

263
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:17,200
We're going to build on that
research.

264
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,400
Often times I look at research
studies and the question is, who

265
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,760
were they coding?
Did anybody ever do this before?

266
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,400
No one did this before.
So we got to replicate it.

267
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:28,920
That's that's that's the next
step.

268
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:30,720
Yeah.
So I think there's something to

269
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,880
say with with BF scanner coming
years later and saying this

270
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,240
forty thing I don't think is
working out.

271
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,520
Let's try this, this behavior
thing.

272
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,440
OK, So, you know, that's the
radical behaviorist part.

273
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,680
That's why he gets that title,
because he believes internal or

274
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:49,360
private events are also part of
behavior, also considered

275
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,200
behavior.
And the reason why they don't

276
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:58,000
get so much attention even now
is because because they're hard

277
00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,920
to measure.
And if you're data-driven,

278
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,520
you're science, you're
data-driven.

279
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,280
That's the way.
That's what science is supposed

280
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:04,480
to be.
How?

281
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:09,360
How could you would you say that
like can you tell someone to

282
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,360
capture their thoughts or write
down their thoughts when

283
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,800
prompted a certain way or
presented a certain scenario

284
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,840
situation and then try to like,
like I know when I did, when I

285
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,680
took second college, I had to
participate in, you know,

286
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,400
research studies and a lot of
this stuff.

287
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:24,960
I don't even know what I was
participating in.

288
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:26,840
Looking back, I'm like, oh, this
makes sense.

289
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,280
Like, you know, this professor
has 400 students and like he's,

290
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,560
and he's asking what we see, you
know, what our associations are

291
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,480
with, you know, whenever we see
this picture of that thing or

292
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,600
whatever, like that's a really
great pool of data.

293
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,720
If he does that for foreign
students every semester, then he

294
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,640
has after two years he has he
has 2000 students that he could

295
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,560
that he could draw from.
I mean, often times I'm looking

296
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,960
at the Journal of Applied
Behavior Analysis, you know,

297
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,200
Java or you know, journal
experimental behavior analysis.

298
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,960
And often times a lot of studies
are done with students,

299
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,480
students, because that's easy at
this point.

300
00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,360
And it's and you want to, you
know, a real, a real science and

301
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:05,800
real data is, is with control
groups and with, you know, so to

302
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,280
speak, blind studies.
So you want to.

303
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,360
Explain what that is for anyone
that doesn't know what control

304
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:13,840
groups blind study how that
stuff works.

305
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,480
Yeah, there's, there's obviously
different ways to do it.

306
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,080
That's a that's a whole college
class in itself.

307
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,160
But obviously there's different
designs.

308
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,880
Something about ABA also is we,
we wanted to focus on single

309
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:32,320
subject designs.
OK, the idea was that not to do

310
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,480
like a group of people and do
like percentage.

311
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:41,360
No, let's do each participant
and date their data and see how

312
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,360
how it.
Progresses so like giving them

313
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,640
each.
So let's say we have four people

314
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:46,920
here.
Yeah, instead of just putting

315
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,880
them in a pool and just mounting
all the data together and just

316
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,400
saying out of four people, have
three people or two people were

317
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,320
successful in this.
Yeah, here's four people.

318
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,200
Person A was success was when we
put in this intervention was

319
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,040
successful.
Person B was when we put in this

320
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,320
intervention was successful.
Person C wasn't successful.

321
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,160
This is possible contributing
variables.

322
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,560
Person D We put it in, but we
had to make a modification and

323
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:20,480
then it was successful so that.
Is I see, I see, I see.

324
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,920
As a science, we felt that this
is, it's not us, not me, but

325
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,440
like we feel that this is the
more effective and more proven

326
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,960
data than just like grouping
people in together or like

327
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,720
respond, focusing only on what
the response like, yeah, how

328
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,240
they feel and responding on that
stuff.

329
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,400
So you say in, for example, a
maybe if I understand you

330
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:43,760
correctly.
So like, let's say someone goes

331
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,040
to therapy and a therapist,
like, OK, talk therapy works for

332
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,560
this person, talk therapy works
for that person.

333
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,200
It looks like therapy is not
working great for that person.

334
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,200
Let's see if they exercise three
times a week, does that make a

335
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,680
difference?
OK, talk therapy works.

336
00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,960
Now with that, with exercise and
talk therapy.

337
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,560
Well, I think I'm my agile
professor, so I like.

338
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,640
So I was been involved a little
bit with the research.

339
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,040
I understand a little bit of
that.

340
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,119
The first step is and, and I'll
tell us if you want to work on a

341
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,599
study, you have to understand
what the intervention is and

342
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,480
observe and describe it in an
observable and measurable term.

343
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,720
It's one of our 7 dimensions of
ABA.

344
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,040
So what's measurable or
observable, right?

345
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,119
If you say talk therapy, that's
not measurable or observable.

346
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,640
You can measure or observe the
difference in behavior over a

347
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,280
coming week, feelings, or
whatever.

348
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:33,560
Well, I'm not even talking about
that part.

349
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,680
I'm talking about the actual
behavior of talk therapy.

350
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:37,520
Because it's a vague term,
right?

351
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:39,960
Right.
Right, So what does talk therapy

352
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:41,320
mean Is what you're asking right
is.

353
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,640
It if we say, is it?
Freudian talk therapy, talking

354
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,080
about your mom and your when you
were like as a kid and your

355
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,120
experiences were like.
Or or is it not?

356
00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,000
Yeah, so that cool if we say
like we're going to put in a

357
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,800
token economy, which is let's
say charts or what few tickets

358
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,720
or people are are familiar with.
If we put something in like

359
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,400
that, how, how, how are the
respondents or how are the

360
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,560
participants going to, has their
behavior going to change?

361
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,360
That's a very, you know,
observable and measurable thing.

362
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,160
There was nothing here.
We put in this working on this

363
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:20,280
behavior and then it changed or
it didn't change, which if you

364
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,840
see, you see, I'm describing it
as very black and white.

365
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:29,400
That's where when it goes down
the line and it turns into a

366
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,520
therapy, so often, not often,
but sometimes there's therapists

367
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,560
that will present it in a rigid
way.

368
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,440
Present.
The therapy in a rigid way

369
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,920
because they're they're.
But they're learning it black

370
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,360
and white.
They're learning it black and

371
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:45,280
white.
So as an adjunct professor, my

372
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,320
goal is actually like to say,
hey, be creative, be flexible.

373
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,960
How do you apply creativity or
flexibility to something like

374
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,800
that in practice?
So, but give me a we can talk

375
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,720
about an example like you give
me an example of a type of

376
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,200
therapy that would be working or
wouldn't be working for

377
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,840
depending on the person and then
make a difference, I guess

378
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,800
observable difference and and
then how would someone be rigid

379
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,440
or not about that?
Something could work about

380
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:22,240
people but still not like it.
OK, OK, so just let's say

381
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,600
there's let's say there's BCB
and let's say this BCBA is

382
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,960
working with children of autism
and really touch on like, yeah,

383
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,320
we'll expand the the scope, you
know, further on.

384
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,760
But let's say for most people
that understand BCA's work with

385
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:38,800
Charlieville, they could come
in, put in a token economy and

386
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:40,360
it would be successful.
And the parents are going to be

387
00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,440
like what?
Like you're rude.

388
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,120
You're you, you're rude.
You're not, you're not

389
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,920
personable.
You're not, you're just focusing

390
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:51,600
on the token of time.
You're not even thinking about

391
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,360
like the child and how he's
affected by the intervention,

392
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:56,000
right.
And then there's taking that

393
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,920
same intervention, but modifying
it with today's a hard day.

394
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,240
You know, today the kid didn't
sleep last night.

395
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:07,120
Let's adjust.
Let's adjust the the the, you

396
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:10,480
know, the data might be screwed
for, you know, rude for that

397
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,520
day, but you understand.
When you're working with people,

398
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,680
it's a little bit different than
the lab.

399
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:24,800
So especially science that's
focused on on on behavior of the

400
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,800
science is focused on behavior
of all living things.

401
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,160
So that's animals and and
people.

402
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,880
And whatever, really.
So when if you're doing that,

403
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:35,400
your, your research in a lab
with let's say college students

404
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,600
is going to look different when
you're implementing that

405
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,360
successful intervention with,
with a child.

406
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:44,240
Totally, totally.
Yeah.

407
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,120
So if you think of it like that,
then it's common sense.

408
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:48,600
Yeah.
But if you think of it like.

409
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,680
These are the rules.
I'm taught like this and you

410
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,640
just like copy and paste that.
That's where the mistake

411
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:56,800
becomes, and that's where
there's.

412
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,240
So there's a difference.
So what?

413
00:20:58,280 --> 00:20:59,280
OK.
I think So.

414
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,840
What you're, I think you're
saying is that you have the

415
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,520
method and then you have the
recipient of the method, but the

416
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,240
recipient of the method is not
always prepared to receive the

417
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,000
therapy that the therapist is
offering on or it's not going to

418
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,680
be the same every single time.
There's always going to be

419
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,720
different contexts, or different
types of days, different moods

420
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,880
or different ages or different
personalities.

421
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,440
So correct me if I'm not, if I'm
not being clear, but what I'm

422
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,000
saying is there's, and because
we're touching on the science

423
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,760
and then we're touching on the
therapy and we're touching on

424
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,000
the applications and then the
research, it's, it's very much

425
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,880
separate what we do in a lab and
what we do as a science.

426
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,000
So.
What do you do in a lab then?

427
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,480
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what
you're doing in a lab as when I

428
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,040
think, when I think of your lab,
I'm thinking of actually like

429
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,600
seeing like doing, trying that
type of intervention,

430
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,960
intervention, trying that type
of therapy or intervention,

431
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,440
seeing the results, taking note
of it.

432
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,440
And then when you're applying it
right, that's.

433
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,280
On a mass scale.
You're taking it from the

434
00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:02,160
experimental design, which is
obviously is more lab based with

435
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:08,280
any science, whether it's
whether it's with pigeons or or

436
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,480
rats or people, rats or people.
And then when you're putting it

437
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,520
in as applied as a service that
that's going to look different,

438
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,360
right?
Because as a service you have to

439
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,480
be personable.
You take into other account that

440
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,000
there's other variable.
I feel like I'm being confusing

441
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,880
for no reason but.
No, I think I understand what

442
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,680
you're saying.
So you have the initial like

443
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,440
let's say you're.
You're you're experimenting with

444
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,120
a new method, but you're slowly
observing.

445
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:39,360
It so we'll jump in and say if
you're, if you're a therapist,

446
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,160
you're likely not focused on the
research chart.

447
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,200
You're not.
You're not testing out those new

448
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,880
those new methods.
You're applying the methods that

449
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,240
you learned already that have
already been.

450
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,960
Established in school, whether
it's research articles or

451
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,520
whether you know the journals,
you know, which is why it's so

452
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,360
important to be up to date with,
with the up and coming journals

453
00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:59,720
and like the new research that
comes out when they're seeing a

454
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,200
conference and seeing a study
that someone else applied and

455
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,160
then take it to the next step.
And with every, every

456
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:11,440
intervention, you know, this is
like a joke that someone said

457
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,960
they're like, does this field
attract rigid people or does

458
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,800
this field make rigid people
rigid?

459
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,520
I don't know.
I don't know what the right

460
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,040
answer is.
I don't know, but I know that as

461
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,040
professionals, as as you know,
touching on that agile professor

462
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,400
piece, our job is to pass on
that.

463
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,480
It's not a rigid thing.
Have that conversation be

464
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,440
personable.
You know whether it's whether

465
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,320
you know if you need a little
help reading Dale Carnegie.

466
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,240
He's a boring writer.
He's a boring writer in my

467
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,760
opinion.
Yeah, very difficult to read.

468
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,720
You're talking about, like the
seven ways to influence people.

469
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,600
Whatever.
No, that's that's COVID.

470
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,000
How to make friends and
influence?

471
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,400
People I don't make friends and
influence people.

472
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:56,640
That's Dale Carnegie.
That's Dale Carnegie.

473
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,040
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I thought you were saying 7. 7

474
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,600
Habits Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no,
that yeah, that book was hard

475
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:02,880
for.
Me to read the Dale Carnegie,

476
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,480
the Dale Carnegie want.
Obviously I'm listening to it

477
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,520
again for like the third time.
How is it?

478
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,040
How is it auditorily as opposed
to on papers?

479
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,840
Because I can't get through.
It I'm a very slow reader in

480
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,680
general, and to sit down and
read is much harder.

481
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,160
Yeah, but in the car listening
to it in the background and I'm

482
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,080
like, OK, I'm picking up also,
since I've read it before about

483
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,720
it, it's just like more of a
refresher.

484
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,320
I have a colleague, David
Rubenfeld.

485
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:34,000
He always says, like, this is
Dale Carnegie is social skills

486
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,960
for Adults.
Yeah, that's what the book is.

487
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,200
Totally.
And once he said that, I was

488
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,120
like, yeah, it is tend.
To be a likable person.

489
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,960
Part of teaching social skills,
you know, whether we work with

490
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,640
adults or children, it's going
to obviously look different, but

491
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,880
this is like a good blueprint.
I was speaking to Doctor Hanley,

492
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,360
who's, you know, a big person in
the field, and I was like, what

493
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:56,600
do you think about Dale
Carnegie?

494
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,880
He's like, ah, it's, it's great.
So you see that the

495
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,720
professionals are.
Yeah, big fans.

496
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,560
Are a big fan of like, you know,
material material and like it

497
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,760
not being ABC or D.
Like you have to learn how to

498
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,440
talk to people when you're on
the service delivery side as

499
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,520
opposed to the lab side where
it's just like students come in.

500
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,640
This is the question, yes or no,
Stuff like that.

501
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:20,600
I feel like I'm jumping around
too much.

502
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:22,640
I think you're doing, I think
that's.

503
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,240
That's just like, that's my
ADHD, Like, yeah, yeah.

504
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,560
That is great.
Oh yeah.

505
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,560
So going back.
I guess to go back to the

506
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,760
science, there's a phospho,
there's experimental and then

507
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:37,000
taking that experimental and
applying it.

508
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,360
So there's experimental in the
lab, and then there's applying

509
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:41,080
it to at.
What point does experimental

510
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,520
become mainstream?
What's accepted by Journal?

511
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,720
Well, there's experimental and
there's applied, right?

512
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,600
There's a separate journal.
There's the journal Experimental

513
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,680
Applied Behavior Analysis.
There's different tiers.

514
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,640
And then there's the journal
Applied Behavior Analysis.

515
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,040
I look at it, I could be I'm
wrong.

516
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,280
I look at it as steps.
It goes from experimental to

517
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,240
applied, and then you're as a
professional, you're looking at

518
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,000
the applied and you're applying
it to.

519
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,800
But as an as a researcher or as
a scientist, you're looking at

520
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,000
experimental too.
So, so you in particular would

521
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,240
be looking at the experimental.
Most therapists would not would

522
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,680
be looking at applied or
whatever is out there.

523
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,200
Yeah, I mean, I think it's
important for for therapists,

524
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:20,920
even if you're not going to look
at applied to look at

525
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,240
experimental like just hear
what's out there, hear what's

526
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,600
going because it's very possible
you could implement it.

527
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:28,960
And then there are some big
changes that surprised you

528
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,520
recently.
What are some big like, was

529
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,000
anything like shocking that that
like came out experimentally

530
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,400
that you were like, oh, that's
cool.

531
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,680
Or oh, that's like different.
No, because I can't say I'm

532
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,560
reading everyone.
You know, when when the journal

533
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,160
comes to my door, it's like for
a year and it's like I usually

534
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,920
try to skim through it.
There's so to go.

535
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,840
So obviously going back in the
science not to get too, you

536
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,560
know, distracted by the research
part, there's the science

537
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,920
focusing on what behavior is and
how behavior works.

538
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,240
Yes.
And let's talk about that.

539
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,960
Thoughts, thoughts are behavior,
thoughts, behavior.

540
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,960
And let's say you're thirsty.
What's the behavior you're going

541
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,040
to do?
So let's say the, a, the, the,

542
00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:09,040
the beginning part is you're
thirsty, you're going to go get

543
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,120
a drink, right?
You drink, you're satiated when

544
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:14,840
you're thirsty.
Next time, are you more likely

545
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,520
to get a drink?
More likely.

546
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,640
Than if you wouldn't have so let
me you're you're you're thirsty

547
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,960
you're going to get a drink
drink is getting a drink.

548
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,880
Is the behavior satisfied?
Satisfied is the consequence.

549
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:30,760
Consequence doesn't mean bad
over here.

550
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,520
When we we use consequence, we
just.

551
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,360
Result the results.
Yeah, and based on your

552
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:38,560
consequence, someone's more
likely or less likely.

553
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,520
To do that behavior again, I'm
assuming more.

554
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,520
Because the satisfaction is a
good in this case, right?

555
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,360
Yeah, in this case, it would be
more, yeah.

556
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,840
So that's basically how they
look at every behavior.

557
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,920
And if you understand that the
science is just studying

558
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,440
behavior, it's impossible for it
to be incorrect.

559
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,800
For behavior to be incorrect for
for this.

560
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,520
Science to be incorrect.
Now the third what?

561
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,160
Why would the science be
incorrect?

562
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,720
How could the?
I think I'm answering a question

563
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,760
that like, you don't even know.
Like, yeah, you don't know about

564
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,920
the backlash to the science.
So what?

565
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,720
The premise is the premise.
What's the premise over here?

566
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,040
The premise of the statement is
that a behavior with a

567
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,560
consequence that behavior is.
Controlled by what happens

568
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,440
before and after.
OK, so for example, let's say

569
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,080
I'm thirsty and I decided to get
in the car and drive to Publix

570
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,800
to get a bottle of water.
And I'm like this, this is kind

571
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,600
of stupid because I have a
bottle of water at home, so I

572
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,160
didn't need to do that.
And so I so I tried to come

573
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,400
home.
The next time I'm home, I'm

574
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,080
like, I'm not going to get up
and go to Publix because that

575
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,760
required a lot of effort.
And so I'm actually going to.

576
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,800
I think you're going to a
different thing of of like I

577
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,000
think the term is response cost,
like how how much effort it

578
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:52,560
takes.
To accomplish the goal, right,

579
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,520
OK.
But let's say you would drink

580
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,280
water and you you felt
satisfied, but the next time you

581
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,120
drink soda and you're like, this
is not satiating all the time.

582
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,600
Then you're not going to drink
soda again.

583
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,440
Not soda again, but like when
you're.

584
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:06,840
Thirsty.
You're not going to go for it

585
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,160
then, right?
OK, that checks out.

586
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,680
OK, gotcha.
So that's just like a good

587
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:12,880
example.
That's just like a yeah.

588
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,600
It's a perfect example to make a
point, but yeah.

589
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,960
If we look at behavior, every
single behavior like that, yeah.

590
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:19,960
Now sometimes it takes a little
bit more digging.

591
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,520
What happened before?
What's the consequence?

592
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,440
Sometimes the before should be
way in the past, sometimes it

593
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:32,320
will be in the future.
And the same thing goes for and

594
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,160
then the same thing goes for
when you have competing

595
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:40,400
behaviors, right?
What let's say someone's like, I

596
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,160
know I have to do work, but I
can sit on my phone and scroll.

597
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,960
Let me just sit on the phone and
scroll because it's easier to

598
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,920
sit in your phone and scroll and
get that reinforcement that.

599
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,920
And you know, and you also know
the consequences.

600
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,880
I bet like you know, that you
like scrolling you.

601
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,640
Know, but you know the
consequences that if you work

602
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,320
it's better off for you.
Like theoretically you know

603
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,640
that.
If it's not a one to one

604
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,080
correlation, which is why I
think that people have a hard

605
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,760
time with that.
I think if if it was a 1 to 1

606
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,600
correlation, you have a much
better time with a much easier

607
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,520
time with it.
Well, it's competing behaviors.

608
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:09,760
And what takes more?
More or.

609
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:10,960
Less response, right?
Yeah.

610
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,000
It it takes less like response
effort, it takes less effort on

611
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,160
your end to yeah, we're good.
Yeah.

612
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:24,880
It takes less effort on your end
to scroll on your phone then

613
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,120
than it is to get up than to it
is to just change the app on

614
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,360
your phone.
To my work app A.

615
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,360
Work app and answer a couple of
emails.

616
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,680
OK, but now we're talking about,
but now you just changed from.

617
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:37,880
I just changed to.
Motivate.

618
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,720
I brought into another, I
brought in another principle,

619
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,760
which is episode, which is,
which is effort.

620
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,200
It's how much effort it will
take to get the reinforcement

621
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,960
because you'll feel accomplished
after you get through a bunch of

622
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,160
emails correct Or anything.
Yeah, totally.

623
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:54,840
I feel great.
Right.

624
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,600
So what so you have that, you
have that reinforcement on that

625
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,040
side, but in the in the moment
you're like, hey, takes less

626
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,760
effort to do this, so you're
more likely to to do that.

627
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,160
That makes sense.
The way that I, I read, I enemy

628
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,920
the whole thing, but I've read,
I've read chunks of Danny

629
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,480
Kahman, Daniel Kahman's What's
the book called?

630
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,040
Thinking Fast and Slow.
And one of the things that he

631
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:22,000
says is he's a Nobel Prize
winner for, for economics, but

632
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,960
based on, on decision making and
people and, and behavior.

633
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,200
And one of the things he says
that we have a limited amount of

634
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,560
mental budget for things that
require effort and like, and it

635
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,160
gets depleted, right.
So let's say hypothetically,

636
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,360
it's hard for me.
I'm trying to be healthy.

637
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,440
It's hard for me to eat healthy.
So it's hard for me to exercise,

638
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,880
right?
If I take if, if at the end of

639
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,000
the day, so I'm already
expending my energy, the X

640
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,120
amount of energy is already
going to be spent getting up,

641
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,560
going, you know, taking my kids
to school, going to school,

642
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,200
working.
And at the end of the day, I'm

643
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,000
almost out of energy, right?
I'm going to choose to go for a

644
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,840
jog.
When I come back from that jog,

645
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,080
it's going to be way harder for
me to hold back from eating that

646
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,960
piece of cake because I've
already depleted a lot of the

647
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,840
I've already depleted my tank of
that conscious effort.

648
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,200
And now that I have less, and
now that I don't have as much in

649
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,800
the tank, it's going to be
harder for me to make decisions

650
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,040
that require more effort or
intention behind this.

651
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,000
Yeah, that's interesting.
OK.

652
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,600
Yeah.
But I imagine that's similar to

653
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,680
that, but I guess that could tie
into it, you know?

654
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,600
It could tie into it because.
Scrolling is effortless.

655
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,000
That's how people like it.
Well.

656
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,160
You know why people like
scrolling?

657
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,520
Because you're getting the
instant gratification for that,

658
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:37,960
too.
Yeah.

659
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,120
And it's novel.
It's quick, it's a blast.

660
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,960
It's an instant gratification.
You're getting that that I don't

661
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,400
know if I'm using the right
drug, but dopamine?

662
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,120
Yeah, that is yeah, dopamine.
Here but you're getting that

663
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,840
that and that's the
reinforcement right so you may

664
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,200
as a teacher think like oh
reinforcement is giving my

665
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,200
students tickets or candies
right but there's that dopamine

666
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,440
is also reinforcing that
behavior of scrolling so and we

667
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,720
how behavior works if something
something's only called

668
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,120
reinforcing if it increases if
it if the behavior will increase

669
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:17,760
yeah OK we use this term in in
in the science of ABA.

670
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,680
Obviously it's going to you
know, people don't look at this

671
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,880
term is that, but if something's
punishing, yeah, then they won't

672
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,760
do that behavior again.
OK OK right.

673
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:33,640
So if if someone tries to put in
their bathtub real life

674
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,160
experience, they try to you know
they're having construction done

675
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:41,840
and they try to help out and put
their bathtub into the place and

676
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,440
the bathtub cracks, right?
That was a consequence.

677
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:45,560
They tried doing this out
they're.

678
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:47,600
Not going to try again next
time.

679
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,040
Now, they didn't get punished,
they didn't get slapped or hurt,

680
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,200
but that's that that.
But the fact they may have gone,

681
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,840
they may have gone punished.
They got punished in a different

682
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,720
way.
They exerted effort without the

683
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,720
outcome they wanted.
And then they probably cost

684
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,840
money to cut someone else to put
them in, to put it in.

685
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:02,640
So now you.
Feel like you.

686
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,040
The punishments focus on the
consequence, so now that the

687
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,480
effort it's focused on, now they
have a cracked tub.

688
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,880
But you're waiting, but you're
weighing the effort versus the

689
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,440
consequence.
I think we all are.

690
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,360
If you say I worked so hard for
something, you didn't get

691
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,120
anything out of it, well, you'd
be like, oh, that's I don't want

692
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,920
to do that again because I
didn't feel like I got.

693
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,560
The effort.
The effort is before the

694
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,880
behaviour, correct?
Once you complete the behaviour,

695
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,239
what happens after the behaviour
is likely going to decide

696
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:27,840
whether you're going to do that
behaviour again or not, right?

697
00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:32,120
Someone pushes themselves to
public speak.

698
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,719
And it's a nightmare.
It's a nightmare.

699
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,480
They are less likely to do it
again.

700
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,719
Correct.
It's an extreme success.

701
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,280
Yo, what's the next?
What's the next?

702
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,840
What's the next engagement?
When can I speak next?

703
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:46,880
Yeah.
So something like that.

704
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,560
And it happens.
We do with with people.

705
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,440
We meet and speak to.
You speak to someone, what about

706
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,639
what did you walk away like, oh,
this is a knowledgeable

707
00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:58,360
conversation.
Often times you're going to go

708
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,040
back to that person, right?
So it's happening everywhere.

709
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,000
This this, this before, after,
sure, before and after and the

710
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,200
behavior, but people don't look
at it on a daily basis.

711
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:10,880
So I.
Think about it pretty regular as

712
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,320
a teacher.
Well, as a teacher, it's a, it's

713
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,920
a little bit different because
you're you, you can sometimes

714
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,680
see when you, your action, what
happens.

715
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,440
Well, how do your students
react?

716
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,920
Or something like that.
I, I don't even need to see.

717
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,800
I don't even need to see.
So I don't need to see the

718
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,520
responses necessarily because I
know I'm trusting the process of

719
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,040
what you're saying.
For example, I had a student

720
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,360
yesterday just yells out a curse
word in the middle of the class.

721
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,920
I throw them out, right,
goodbye.

722
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:39,480
Thank you very much for coming.
See you later.

723
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:41,880
I get along with, you know, an
actual.

724
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,880
And one of the challenges that
I, I, I'm aware of and that I,

725
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,920
I, I, I, I deal with head on is
that because I'm laid back, a

726
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,800
lot of my students think they
can take advantage of me.

727
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,120
And that's, and so they're
always surprised when I throw

728
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,560
them out of class and I'm always
rigid about it when I throw them

729
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,520
out.
I say, I'm very sorry.

730
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,560
We'll try again tomorrow.
There's a consequence to your

731
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,840
behavior.
And I don't want you to think

732
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,040
that this behavior has no
consequences.

733
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,920
So when you yell out a curse
word in the middle of class, if

734
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,280
it won't help me, it won't help
you figure out me, it won't help

735
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,040
you.
If, If there's no, if there's

736
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,800
no, if there's nothing on the
other end of that, that is that

737
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,920
means anything to you.
So I'm going to put a little

738
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,680
spin on it and and I'm not
saying that you were wrong in

739
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,520
throwing them out, of course,
but I want to like show you how

740
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,080
you throwing them out could be
either a punishment or a

741
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:30,560
reinforcement for them.
OK.

742
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,120
They're sending a class.
They're like shoots.

743
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:34,200
I can't.
I got to get out of here.

744
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,720
I can't deal with this.
Yell a curse word.

745
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,240
You send them out, they're free.
Yeah, right.

746
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,480
They got what they want.
Another good class.

747
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,440
Enjoying your class, Right?
Comfortable says a curse word,

748
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,960
thought he would get a laugh
from his friends and said he got

749
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,400
sent out.
That that same action that you

750
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,760
followed the behavior with?
Yes, we just described two ways

751
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,760
of how it could be punishing and
reinforcing.

752
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,120
Yes, correct.
So often time people think like

753
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,880
I punish my kids, I give them
time out, yeah.

754
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,080
But if they don't care, they
don't mean.

755
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,080
Anything but it's not about them
not caring if that's what they

756
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,440
want or that then then they.
You're actually giving them

757
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,760
their desired goal.
So the same thing is like this

758
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,200
thing in a preference
assessment, it's called in the

759
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,440
science and in the applied side
and the therapy side where you

760
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,800
could have two kids that you're
working with, one kid who want a

761
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,320
candy, one could who want chips.
And if you give the kid that

762
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,640
wants candy chips, unless it's
not, even though it's following

763
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,320
the behavior, it doesn't mean
it's going to be reinforcing.

764
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,840
That's the flaw with the
marshmallow test, because you're

765
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,440
not assuming that all the kids
want marshmallows.

766
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,200
That's a good point, I never
thought about it.

767
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:43,480
That's actually great.
Yeah.

768
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,360
Wow.
But yeah, I never actually

769
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,360
thought about it like that.
Applies to the marshmallow test.

770
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:51,760
I didn't either until the
second, yeah.

771
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,440
But that is a big flaw with the
marshmallow.

772
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,280
That's because, yeah, because
two people, you've got two

773
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,640
people in the same room and they
can both find different.

774
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:01,960
Context, Just to elaborate on
the story.

775
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,320
I almost I do understand that
the students because what I do

776
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,840
is I give them an abstinence for
thrown out, but I give them an

777
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,040
opportunity to all my students
have an opportunity to get up,

778
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,440
get up and just walk around.
If they get walk like take a

779
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,640
walk if they need for three to 5
minutes without consequences.

780
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,400
So they all know like they know
I actually enforce, I reinforce

781
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,520
be mature.
If you feel like you can't

782
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,600
control yourself, get up and
take a walk for three minutes,

783
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,600
come back.
And if I do throw you out, then

784
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,520
there's consequences because
obviously you haven't been

785
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,920
mature enough to decide by
yourself that you're that you

786
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,800
can get that you need to get up
and walk out.

787
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:36,960
And so this is now the new
repercussion.

788
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:38,960
Just check.
But that took time to work on by

789
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,240
the way.
It took it, took it.

790
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,840
Took at all questioning, you
know, but I was saying it, I was

791
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,560
going to film the education
education and I, I don't think

792
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:53,080
that when I, I was teaching that
I had that conscious thing, you

793
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,360
know, now that it's wrong.
I don't.

794
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,000
I think often times teachers
aren't taught that it's not

795
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:59,240
about throwing them out,
throwing them out.

796
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,160
Throwing them out sometimes
could be reinforcing to the

797
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:03,520
teacher.
Yeah, I got.

798
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,360
I did the behavior of throwing a
kid out and now my classroom is

799
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:07,800
quiet.
It's a power, it's a, it's a

800
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,480
power play, too.
But there's the power struggle.

801
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,440
But it's also going back to the
behavior, right?

802
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,560
The teacher threw someone out.
Now he's reinforced by getting

803
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,160
the behavior that he wants from
other students.

804
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,080
And not just that, but he's also
reinforced that his classroom's

805
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,160
quieter.
OK, so then he's what we could

806
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:27,360
we could look at both.
I don't think either 1.

807
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:28,320
I don't.
Think it's Yes, yes, yes.

808
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:29,520
I don't think it's completely
wrong.

809
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,400
Yes, Yes, Yes, yes.
But a teacher could is probably

810
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,200
more likely to throw someone out
the next time, yes, than that.

811
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,600
The the and there's some great
people in the field like Doctor

812
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:46,280
Paul Galloni and Anika Asta, who
created a plans for schools that

813
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:47,680
it's not about just throwing the
kids out.

814
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,600
It's about throwing them out.
I hate to use this word,

815
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,320
throwing them out, but something
out of class.

816
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:53,960
They don't just send them out of
class.

817
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:55,720
It's also about sending them out
of class and having them

818
00:39:55,720 --> 00:39:57,160
complete the work they have to
do in class, right?

819
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,160
So they didn't get out of the
work.

820
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,440
They didn't get that free, you
know, And they have a whole book

821
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,160
on that, which is really, really
great.

822
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,560
But that comes from
understanding the science that

823
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,960
there's a lot of, there's a lot
of lot of things playing out in

824
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,800
general.
Skinner, Broaden.

825
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,000
Pavlov.
Into the science and.

826
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,480
They lived at the same time.
No, Pavel is it was earlier.

827
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,400
Earlier I don't.
Know when Pavel is.

828
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,040
From yeah, I think it was like
in the 1800s.

829
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:26,480
OK, but I could be I'm totally
wrong.

830
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,320
Yeah, tell you right now, Yeah.
But we're on a hot seat right

831
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,480
now, yeah.
Sorry, we need a, We need a guy

832
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:34,360
in.
Verification.

833
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:41,640
Yeah, he's yeah. 1849 to
19361936 When was when was

834
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,960
Skinner?
Alive, it could be the inter

835
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,880
they cross, but I think I don't
want to even make things out.

836
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:51,160
But he's early 1900s. 19 O
4/19/90 yeah, he would have been

837
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,480
like 20 when he when when Pavlov
died so.

838
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,400
Very much.
It could be that there was some

839
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,680
interaction, I don't know, but
he brought that into science

840
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,960
about that's how behavior works
and conditioning.

841
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,200
Skinner gets a lot of Flack
because his original research

842
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,720
was done with rats and pigeons,
which is what maybe you heard of

843
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:10,480
him from or you know him from.
I think.

844
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,520
I guess the truth is I don't
even remember where I know his

845
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,480
name from.
His his idea was that when he

846
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,040
was testing these behavioral
principles, Yeah.

847
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,000
But you know, what happens
before what happens?

848
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,000
A response.
Call pigeons are intelligent and

849
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,880
rats are very intelligent and we
know that both animals could, I

850
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,960
think a pigeon could carry out,
follow a set of directions.

851
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:30,920
That's why you had quote UN
quote messenger pigeons, you

852
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:32,920
know, back.
I guess that would that would

853
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:33,800
make.
Sense they're intelligent

854
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,600
animals.
Yeah, but the idea is that they

855
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,480
also do research with fish.
I don't think BF, I don't think

856
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,000
BF scanner did it, but there are
labs in the US that's cool that

857
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,200
are doing applied behavior
analysis.

858
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:44,560
Really.
With fish, With fish and.

859
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,680
I don't want people get so, so
used to like, hey, if we're

860
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,360
doing it with fish and animals,
how are you?

861
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,800
How are you doing with humans?
Yeah, which is a valid question,

862
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,400
but it doesn't.
One thing doesn't take away from

863
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,240
another.
When I was in, when I was in an

864
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:08,720
aquarium, I think in, so one of
maybe a Miami aquarium, you

865
00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:11,640
know, I saw them training like
one of these, the dolphins or

866
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,720
whatever, one of these things.
I don't know what dolphins.

867
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,360
Are also super smart.
They were using the principles

868
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:17,160
of ABA.
Yeah.

869
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:19,280
OK.
And I walk into a clinic or I

870
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,280
walk into a classroom, or I walk
into, I walk into a classroom,

871
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:26,160
any regular classroom.
Let's not talk, you know, let's

872
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,080
talk typical developing
children.

873
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,320
And they're using the same
principles.

874
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,120
So it's it's the principles of
how behavior works.

875
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,200
Yeah.
It's not just because it's

876
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,320
focused on animals.
But people are animals too.

877
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,640
That's something we don't like
to think, but we are we.

878
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:44,560
Don't like to think about it,
but our behavior works in

879
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:45,520
similar ways.
Yeah.

880
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:51,840
And I think, yeah.
And there's also, there are

881
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,280
similar.
There are similar.

882
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,800
I believe it for sure,
especially with something like a

883
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,400
dolphin or a whale or something
like that.

884
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,880
That has a little more.
Whales have accents depending

885
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:03,600
where they're from.
Oh.

886
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:04,720
Really.
Yeah, I did not know that.

887
00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:06,200
That's.
Pretty cool.

888
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,480
It's all vibrations.
So the way that they make, the

889
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,440
way that they make their their
vibration based on where they're

890
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,880
Australian whales sound
differently than Arctic and then

891
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,640
Antarctican whales.
Crazy sense and everything.

892
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,160
Yeah, it's really cool.
Like, do they understand each

893
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,880
other's accents?
Because like, sometimes you know

894
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:23,880
how you speak this.
About.

895
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,040
Yeah, it takes some time to
adjust, by the way.

896
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,640
Seriously, it takes.
I have.

897
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,160
I have a friend that's Irish and
he moved here like 30 years ago,

898
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,320
35 years ago.
And he still has the same

899
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:35,320
accent.
Like the day he landed.

900
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,000
Really.
Yeah, the day he landed there.

901
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,840
Become like Americanized.
I think and maybe you know this

902
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,240
more, but I think there's a
certain age, I think after like

903
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:45,640
20 or 25 that if you come to if
you that that you're like, you

904
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,360
don't, you can't, you don't
adopt to you might be able to

905
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,840
learn to copy it, but you don't,
it doesn't default.

906
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,880
It you're saying it's not going
to change, it's not going to

907
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,920
it's not going to.
But you know, the Israeli guys,

908
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:57,920
they like have been here for 30
years and they still sound like

909
00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:59,600
they just got off off the plane
yesterday.

910
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,200
Like, like there's a reason like
if they'll probably tell you

911
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,840
most of them have got came to
came to America when they're in

912
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,760
their early 20s after the brains
already been mostly developed at

913
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:08,520
that point.
I'm.

914
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,840
Going to say that I think the
big factor is who they hang out

915
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:12,160
with.
That too.

916
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,080
Because I think that shapes it.
Not this Irish guy.

917
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:16,960
This Irish guy is married to an
American girl and works with

918
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,560
Americans all day.
Right, but if he so not, I'm not

919
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,720
saying who they hang out with
because of who they are, but who

920
00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:25,200
they hang out with.
Like if they if, if you, if his

921
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,280
wife who was American would be
whoever is married, you know who

922
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,480
he's married to an American and
the Americans like I don't what,

923
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,040
what, what do you say?
They would.

924
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,880
It would slowly shape their
behavior over time, their speech

925
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,720
over time, to sound more
American.

926
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,160
You would think but I couldn't
understand him for the first

927
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,960
like.
Did you, did you, did your

928
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,400
understanding change or did he
adjust?

929
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,080
I, I adjusted, I got, I got used
to it.

930
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,280
And I've had, I had AI, had a
Caruso, I had a guy I learned

931
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:58,160
with that's the Hasidic guy from
Manchester, you know, years ago.

932
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,520
I'm still, I still talk to every
now and then, but he, I took me

933
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,160
all when I was, when I, when we
would learn consistently

934
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,000
together on a, you know, 3 or 4
nights a week, I'd be able to

935
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,760
understand him way better.
And then I wouldn't see him for

936
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:09,720
six months and I'd see him
again.

937
00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:12,560
And it'd be like grasping to
like, understand.

938
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,440
Him It sounds like your behavior
is being shaped by them not

939
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,480
Knock Hodges yeah, no one's
saying like oh I'm shaping my.

940
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,160
Or my.
Speech or whatever your yeah,

941
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:24,720
yeah, yeah, your understanding.
Yeah.

942
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,880
It's being for sure it is I'm
becoming familiar with.

943
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,800
That familiar with that over
time, yeah, because you're

944
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,120
you're being put in that like a
reversive thing like let me try

945
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,040
harder to listen and and
whatever do you think if you

946
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,800
guys spent more time together
his behavior would be shaped as

947
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,320
well.
His speech would be shaped as

948
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,800
well.
Certainly think so.

949
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,040
I had a friend of mine, I had a
friend of mine.

950
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,920
He he had a funny thing that he
would do like a tick that he

951
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,920
would do.
And I used to make, I used to

952
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,280
make fun of him, not actually
like say hi, how you do this,

953
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,680
but I would do it also like in,
in context.

954
00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:59,800
And then we both end up doing it
a ton.

955
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,920
And you know, and one person who
we're hanging out with was like,

956
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:06,360
why do you do that?
And I'm like, and I'm like, oh,

957
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:07,480
I'm just making fun of have my
coffee.

958
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:08,640
And he goes, are you kidding?
I'm like what?

959
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:10,320
He's like, I started because you
do it.

960
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,560
You know, the entire time that
it was my behaviour that

961
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:18,600
started, I, I, I was unconscious
and then he copied me and then I

962
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,800
copied him, being completely
unaware that he was copying me.

963
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:26,040
Dude, it was such a bizarre.
That's a crazy trip.

964
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:27,840
That that's a trip.
That's a trip.

965
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,960
That's like, how much of that
that, how much do I do that?

966
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:32,840
I'm not aware.
Of but I was just about to say

967
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,520
that and that just shows you
like we, we do so much things

968
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,240
that we're not aware of, whether
it's whether it's because of our

969
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,680
our antecedent, like what
happened before the behaviour,

970
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,200
whether it was years ago,
whether it was a little few

971
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,240
minutes ago, yeah.
Or whether or whether it's it's

972
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,320
that the consequence that that's
shaping it.

973
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,160
You know, I think this goes a
little bit on to like the Freud

974
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,200
side.
Yeah, but like, if people have

975
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,680
triggers, right?
Why do they have triggers?

976
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,880
That's probably that that
antecedent, that thing that

977
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,880
happened before the behavior,
then that's that's trigger them.

978
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,640
To what are you saying?
It's associations?

979
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,400
I think triggers their
associations.

980
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,200
Associations.
Associations is the same thing

981
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,200
as antecedent behavior
consequence, right?

982
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,680
Antecedent behavior.
Consequence is what happened

983
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,240
before the behavior, the
behavior and acid behavior.

984
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,920
And then your association with
something that's similar to it.

985
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,360
Well, if you, if you had an
antecedent, you did a certain

986
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,120
behavior and you got the
consequences you wanted, it's

987
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,360
probably more likely to for you
for it to happen again, right.

988
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,480
If maybe if people are in
different social situations,

989
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,120
they found that if they hide in
a corner safer, it's safer.

990
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,240
So it's they had that
consequence of feeling safer.

991
00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:45,360
Yeah, I'm sorry, but I would be
safe.

992
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,160
I would be I would be confident
to say that if they were in

993
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,720
another social where they felt a
similar way, they'll probably do

994
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:54,560
the same behavior and get the
same consequence.

995
00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:00,120
Yeah, because they know that
that that that, that, that that

996
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,560
behavior.
So using that word trigger, that

997
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:06,040
word association I think is the
same thing as saying what

998
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,680
happens before the behavior.
Yeah, trigger association and

999
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,120
seated and it's going to make
what happened based on what the

1000
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,720
consequence was last time.
It's make their behaviour.

1001
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,880
And that being said, so when
people would say you're

1002
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,360
triggering me means that I've
been in a similar situation

1003
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:20,840
where I've had a similar
conversation.

1004
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,080
I did not like the outcome and
so please don't have the

1005
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:24,640
conversation with me.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.

1006
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,360
And then I'm not getting a light
bulb right now like it.

1007
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,040
But that's almost like, I'm not,
you know, not in a mean way, but

1008
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,480
that's almost childish to like
say that every situation, like

1009
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,160
we know that not every situation
is the same, especially like

1010
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,560
with a vague thing like a
conversation, right?

1011
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,560
If let's say I'm asking you to
understand an idea that you're

1012
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,920
saying, and I'm asking you the
idea to break down your idea and

1013
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,440
to make you feel like an idiot
when I was asking you the idea

1014
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,280
because I want to understand.
You there's a concept called

1015
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,560
faulty stimulus.
OK, OK.

1016
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,160
That means you're reacting to
the wrong thing.

1017
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,800
Yeah.
Maybe we would say that in this

1018
00:48:55,800 --> 00:49:00,000
case, there's something that's
happened before that's faulty,

1019
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,160
that's triggering.
Yeah, that's triggering that.

1020
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,000
You ever notice people try to
teach their kid a color, right.

1021
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:12,240
We have this green can here.
Yeah, I'm going to say can.

1022
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,000
OK.
I pull out something else that's

1023
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,160
green.
I'm going to say what color is

1024
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,400
this?
Or let's, let's do actually,

1025
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,520
let's be more realistic, right?
We have two cans here.

1026
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:23,360
Yeah.
OK.

1027
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,280
I want to teach you that this is
can, OK.

1028
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:31,120
The person I'm teaching it to
learned that green can is can.

1029
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,400
Yeah.
So they might assume that

1030
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:34,960
everything green is called can,
right.

1031
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,040
But if I show you this other can
that's not green, it's not

1032
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:37,880
called can.
Yeah.

1033
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,160
So that's what faulty stimulus
is.

1034
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,840
And it happens very often when
people are trying to teach new

1035
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,560
skills, but skills especially
for younger, younger kids or

1036
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:51,200
newer skills to, to to even,
even though, I don't know, start

1037
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,960
again.
With jiu jitsu, by the way, same

1038
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,080
thing.
Yeah, you can be taught that you

1039
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:57,760
react.
And try to do something in a

1040
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,520
different context and like,
that's the dumbest thing you can

1041
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:00,720
do.
And I'm like, I just, you just

1042
00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:02,480
told me to do it before.
I'm like, yeah, but only there.

1043
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,320
And I'm like, right?
You're reacting to the wrong.

1044
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,680
The wrong.
Yeah, Stimulus, I think that

1045
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,440
going back to where you were
saying how it's maybe childish,

1046
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,120
maybe that's where it's childish
from, right?

1047
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:15,960
You're thinking it as a
childish, but really?

1048
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:17,640
Well, I'm not.
I'm not.

1049
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,080
Yeah, of course.
They're reacting to the wrong

1050
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:20,680
part of of.
Totally.

1051
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:22,640
Totally.
But that should be made clear

1052
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,680
like meaning.
I don't think people realize

1053
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,400
people, people I don't think
people like right now dissecting

1054
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:29,560
it.
I don't think I ever thought of

1055
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,240
so much of A trigger as in this
thing that we just brought up.

1056
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,600
Right.
But, but I would probably say

1057
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:42,560
that if you know that, another
example is, you know, I know my

1058
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:43,720
my dad and I work together,
right?

1059
00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:46,880
And I and we have a great
relationship 90% of the time.

1060
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:48,640
95% of the time, right.
Pretty good.

1061
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:49,200
Yeah.
It's awesome.

1062
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,280
It took years, by the way.
It's like 5050.

1063
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,640
Thank God.
And a huge part of it was that I

1064
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:04,760
learned that there's a way to
communicate with him.

1065
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,600
And so there's so there's an
idea I'm trying to convey.

1066
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,480
We have an order that has to get
out to a customer.

1067
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,280
I could call him and I could say
this order has to go out.

1068
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,120
What is going on?
Why is that operation such a

1069
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,080
crap show?
It doesn't make any sense.

1070
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:19,960
And you know, you do, you do,
you're right.

1071
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,520
Hang up the phone and I'll never
hear and and nothing will

1072
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:23,520
happen.
But why do you say you're right?

1073
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:24,760
Because.
He wants to end the

1074
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:25,600
conversation.
Right.

1075
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,120
He's he's reinforcing you.
Of course you're like, OK and

1076
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,120
like.
I'm not being, but eventually I

1077
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,400
realize that that's not good.
That's not the way to get it

1078
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,440
done.
And so I call him now and I say,

1079
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,520
ABBA, I love you.
I don't want to fight with you.

1080
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,560
It doesn't look good for us if
we if someone buys something in

1081
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:42,920
two weeks later, they haven't
gotten it yet.

1082
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,320
So, you know, for our sake and
for our reputation and just to

1083
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,280
keep things smooth, like running
smoothly, can we take care of

1084
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,440
this, please?
And even though my instinct is

1085
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,840
to like jump down his throat,
probably because he's my dad and

1086
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,760
you know, whatever.
So now let's say with my SO with

1087
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,480
my dad right now, right, My
dad's the recipient of the

1088
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:01,440
conversation.
He can, he has his own

1089
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,480
associations.
His association when being

1090
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,560
yelled at is to stop the
confrontation.

1091
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:07,400
Best way to stop the
confrontation?

1092
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:08,480
Is to say yeah, he has an
aversive.

1093
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,960
Stimulus I don't want, exactly,
and I don't want him to feel

1094
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,000
like it's adversity.
I want because because I know

1095
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,640
that his response to adversity
is not the response that I want.

1096
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,720
Well, you learned that correct
from your consequence over time,

1097
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:21,080
correct?
Which shapes your behaviour,

1098
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:22,080
correct?
Which is why you change your

1099
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:22,520
behaviour.
Right.

1100
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:24,040
And the more that you get to
know people, right?

1101
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,240
And like, I'm sure you know
this, you know, like I know the

1102
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:29,920
way that I, the way that I have
to talk to my wife to convey an,

1103
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,800
A new idea or critique something
that's going on in the house has

1104
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,400
to be extremely delicate and
thought out.

1105
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,080
And the way that I did it four
years ago when you first got

1106
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,720
married as opposed to today is
super different, right?

1107
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,560
It's not shaping the behavior.
Or understanding the OR

1108
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,640
understanding the person you're
talking to to reshape your

1109
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:50,320
behavior.
Whatever term we want to put to

1110
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,120
it, because we're not arguing
here, We're agreeing.

1111
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:53,320
We're just using different
terms.

1112
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,200
I'm saying two different
perspective we're going from.

1113
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,480
I'm saying it it's being shaped
by the consequence.

1114
00:52:57,680 --> 00:52:59,480
Yeah.
And you're saying, yeah, you're

1115
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,280
constantly changing it based on
the shaping of the consequence.

1116
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:03,560
Yeah, but the same thing.
So no.

1117
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,240
No, no, this is I'm just trying
to.

1118
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,400
There's elaborations coming out.
No, that's what I'm pointing

1119
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:11,520
out.
Like, people could be sitting on

1120
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:14,520
the table, be saying the same
thing, and they're sitting there

1121
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,640
arguing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1122
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:18,920
By the way, that's so I've
noticed that with, with

1123
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,600
arguments in general, it almost
always comes down to just making

1124
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,480
sure that everyone agrees on the
definition of all the terms that

1125
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,640
we're talking about, You know,
sure, that's the biggest thing

1126
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:30,840
because like someone would be
like, it's healthy to do this.

1127
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:35,640
I'm like, wait a minute, what do
you think of healthy means?

1128
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,320
Right, Because I'm looking to
sit here and fight with you

1129
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,040
until my face turns blue when
you're like, oh, healthy just

1130
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,120
means that I'm not getting fat.
I'm like, OK, well, that's not

1131
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:44,520
the same thing as what I'm
talking about.

1132
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,400
So you could save a whole half
an hour argument, you know, just

1133
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,400
by doing that.
Right, Yeah.

1134
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,840
So that's basically I was just
showing you how the different

1135
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:53,920
principles play out.
Sure.

1136
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,320
Now the science is applied,
There's a, a section of the

1137
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,240
science.
There's, there's ABA therapy,

1138
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:07,280
which is autism therapy.
There is school consultants that

1139
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:08,960
actually aren't focused on
autism.

1140
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:14,000
Let me go back.
ABA therapy in itself is not

1141
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,640
focused on autism.
The reason why I get a name for

1142
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:23,680
autism is because back in the
1900s, someone did a ton of

1143
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:24,920
studies.
His name was Lovas.

1144
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:29,280
He did a ton of studies on, you
know, implementing the

1145
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:34,080
principles of the science with
children, adult children, some

1146
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:40,200
adults with autism and show the
validity of this, of the, of the

1147
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:44,280
research that was that it's very
successful in shaping behavior

1148
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:48,560
and stuff like that.
So what happened is with

1149
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:52,880
advocacy, there's been laws
passed in all the US states that

1150
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,920
insurance, health insurance has
to cover medically necessary

1151
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:00,760
services, includes ABA for for
those diagnosed with autism

1152
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,400
right now.
That's how it became known as

1153
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,760
autism therapy, because the
government.

1154
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:11,760
Because the only because if the
if someone has a a child or

1155
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:16,480
relative diagnosed with autism,
ABA is the gold standard, which

1156
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,520
it shows and it's very
effective.

1157
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,800
Obviously, not to get into the
whole nitty gritty, but

1158
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:25,880
different different doctors so
see how different doctors are

1159
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,040
provide services differently
different ABA therapies yeah, I

1160
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:31,760
believe right are going to you
know, provide services

1161
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,000
differently.
I mean I.

1162
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:34,680
Could imagine, right?
You go to 10 therapists, you're

1163
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:35,920
probably hearing 10 different
answers.

1164
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,160
Well, it's not.
It's not about the answers, it's

1165
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,560
about.
Understanding approaches to the

1166
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:41,520
therapy.
Bedside manner.

1167
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,360
Bedside manner, right?
People go to the doctor like,

1168
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:45,440
oh, it's terrible bedside
manner.

1169
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,080
We don't automatically think of
that as a in the therapist

1170
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,640
because automatically we think
that therapists should have that

1171
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,160
side matter, which they should
not disagree with that state.

1172
00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:57,520
So there was laws passed in, in
all 50 states.

1173
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:02,760
I think at this point that, you
know, the it's medically

1174
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,160
necessary for, for children and
adults with autism to be, to

1175
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,560
have ABA therapy because they'll
teach them independent skills,

1176
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:13,360
safety skills, communication
skills, behavioral skills.

1177
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:16,240
And this and this is covered by
insurance for most.

1178
00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:18,040
People health insurance, health
insurance by all health

1179
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,360
insurances unless they have a
plan that their employer opted

1180
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,080
out of.
So that's like the only way all

1181
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:27,720
Medicaid and all states cover it
and all commercial plans are

1182
00:56:27,720 --> 00:56:31,200
supposed to cover it.
And that's how they got the name

1183
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,480
now.
You can apply that ABA to

1184
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,360
students without autism, yeah.
In in Florida, you know, we're

1185
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,520
in Florida right now.
So, you know, let's.

1186
00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:41,720
Go the sunshine.
State.

1187
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:44,120
Sunshine State the weather is
beautiful today.

1188
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,920
Medicaid covers for ABA therapy
for ADHD as well.

1189
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,520
Don't quote me on this last I
heard Massachusetts it covers it

1190
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:58,000
for those diagnosed.
I don't know the diagnosed but

1191
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:04,920
this was Down syndrome really
don't actually also going back

1192
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:06,120
to.
Florida, a bit effective for

1193
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,560
Down syndrome or it's just kind
of lumping Down syndrome in

1194
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:10,440
without?
Without it's really effective.

1195
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,280
And they had to do a lot of
advocacy to get it approved to

1196
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,280
cover for for Down syndrome.
They had to.

1197
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:20,920
They had to, you know, someone
had to push, someone had to,

1198
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,840
they had to show, right.
So that's basically what it is,

1199
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:26,840
ADHD.
If someone's willing, someone's

1200
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:31,440
willing to put, put in the hard
work, then they could show that,

1201
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,920
that it's successful.
Doctor Russell Barkley, who was

1202
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:39,720
like one of the top is known as
one of the top, you know,

1203
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:45,360
doctors or whatever psychologist
in I don't know what is that

1204
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,320
exact field was exact what a
credential is, but he he's

1205
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:53,040
focused on ADHD.
He even says with his and I'm

1206
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:58,920
quoting him children, adults
with autism, they need children

1207
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,200
with autism.
They need medicine because

1208
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,600
they're missing a chemical,
whatever it is a chemical plus

1209
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,400
behavioral therapy.
Behavioral therapy is ADA

1210
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,520
therapy, right?
So plus behavioral therapy, so

1211
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,560
that that's coming from the ADHD
things.

1212
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,840
But obviously the more research
someone does and more advocacy,

1213
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,040
that's how these things happen.
Like that's how insurance covers

1214
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:22,440
things at the end of the
insurance doesn't want to cover.

1215
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:23,760
Yeah, you have to.
You have to give them

1216
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:25,360
overwhelming evidence that it
that it works.

1217
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:26,840
So for them to be willing.
To give them overwhelming

1218
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:31,360
evidence till like I think it's
really till insurance, till the

1219
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,240
states passed laws.
Health insurance obviously have

1220
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:37,200
to comply.
Yeah, they weren't going to be

1221
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:38,840
like, oh, I'm here, we're paying
for this.

1222
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,400
Arizona is a lot more flexible
with with the diagnosis for ABA

1223
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,880
therapy.
It works.

1224
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,000
Yeah, there's.
Certain states that are bigger

1225
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,320
for ABA right than other states
are a little bit more, I guess

1226
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,720
they flexible or?
Well, I think that's just

1227
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,240
advocacy and how it was written
into.

1228
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,920
Into legislature.
Legislate legislature coverage

1229
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:07,400
and into the medical plans right
because I obviously have

1230
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,560
Medicaid that goes after
whatever the state says they're

1231
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:13,840
going to cover.
You know, told about 2-3 years

1232
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,360
ago if you were a board
certified behavior analyst,

1233
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:21,320
which what I am, you could only,
or you would be a licensed

1234
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,000
behavior analyst in the state of
New York, which I am.

1235
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:25,400
You could only work with
children.

1236
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:27,360
You could only work with those
who are diagnosed with autism

1237
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:31,600
only only that was like the law.
So that means if someone.

1238
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,520
Had ADHD or?
And which you could really help

1239
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:36,480
them?
Yeah, you can practice on.

1240
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:38,120
The OR it's not covered or it's
not covered.

1241
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,600
No, even private really.
Yeah.

1242
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,520
Wow, so advocacy.
That's close, but why not?

1243
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:48,120
But advocacy plays out in
different ways.

1244
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:50,560
I can.
Understand if someone said to

1245
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,560
me, you know, you're a doctor
and insurance company says,

1246
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,960
listen, we'll cover, you know,
with the Steve Jobs case because

1247
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,680
Steve Jobs had cancer, he tried
to flush it out with like all

1248
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:01,320
strawberry, all fruit diet,
right?

1249
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:03,880
And like his doctor was like, I
think that's a cool idea.

1250
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:05,600
But like, I'm not going to like
write your prescription for

1251
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,280
strawberries, right?
Like you shouldn't be not

1252
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,880
allowed to like say hey, go try
it.

1253
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:15,760
Like if insurance isn't covering
it, why is it Like why is it,

1254
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:17,960
why is it anyone's business?
So New York State understood it.

1255
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,720
So right, there's the science of
the research, then there's the

1256
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:26,000
advocacy.
And New York State understood it

1257
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,480
that their scope of practice is
autism.

1258
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:32,600
OK so remember you asked me like
why are ABA therapies?

1259
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,040
Only but there's plenty, but
there's but other states.

1260
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:37,320
Well, this is when they made
this law.

1261
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:39,800
This is like, you know at this
point.

1262
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,520
ABA was emerging, right?
OK, I got you.

1263
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,880
It's, it's a newer science, it's
a newer therapy, which is

1264
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:50,680
obviously why over time it's,
it's still advancing and it's

1265
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:54,800
still adjusting, right?
It went from a rigid therapy

1266
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:56,320
because it was right off the
side.

1267
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:58,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
To now it evolved to.

1268
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:00,960
You can see what it what else it
applies to.

1269
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,520
Yeah, no, but not just what else
it applies to, but how you apply

1270
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:10,240
it in the therapy setting has
evolved to a more care focused,

1271
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:15,120
a more patient focus because we
learned that you can't just take

1272
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,280
a science and apply.
It can't be rigid like that.

1273
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,640
You got to be flexible.
We're dealing with with, with,

1274
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:25,160
you know, families, people, and
there's all those factors that

1275
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:27,000
are not just like in the lab,
right?

1276
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:29,920
In real life, in real, in real
life, outside of the lab, things

1277
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:30,520
are a lot.
There's a lot.

1278
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,440
There's a lot more going on.
Different factors.

1279
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:39,080
So that's, that's the ABA
therapy, you know, the people

1280
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:42,760
that are do private pay and
there's people, you know.

1281
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:47,080
They cover my insurance.
They take insurance rather,

1282
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:50,040
yeah.
The ABA therapy, so basically

1283
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:54,360
effective with that great often
times we'll be speaking to our

1284
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,720
parent and I'll be describing
someone to ABA therapy and

1285
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,320
they're like wow.
Like that's just like I'm like,

1286
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:04,200
OK, so we're going to come in
and put in a chart and you'll

1287
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:08,360
get your kid a candy or prizes
or whatever at the end of thing.

1288
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:10,440
The parents like this is ABA
therapy.

1289
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:11,560
Yeah.
Like what?

1290
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:12,880
Like this I could do with
myself.

1291
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:14,240
Yeah.
It's not supposed to be

1292
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:16,760
complicated Yeah, it's very
simple This is how behavior work

1293
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,280
often you as a teacher, you're
applying principles of behavior

1294
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:22,200
analysis into your classroom.
You just obviously don't know

1295
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,280
what behavior analysis is.
Yeah, you're not like, Oh, I'm

1296
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:25,560
consciously.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, right.

1297
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:28,560
But if I would go through all
the things or I would come and

1298
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:30,600
sit in your classroom for a day,
I could probably give you a

1299
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:32,280
whole list of all the principles
you touched on.

1300
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:35,680
So it's.
You do that one time, you should

1301
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:37,680
come by.
I'd love to, but I don't.

1302
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:39,520
Know why not?
You can come to the school.

1303
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:41,680
I don't want to disturb your
classes dude.

1304
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:46,920
No, like disturbed, there's no
way disturbing, there's no more

1305
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:48,720
disturbing that goes on.
So it's.

1306
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:50,840
It's good I'm.
Curious to hear what you thought

1307
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,880
because especially I teach 9th,
12th and 10th super

1308
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,360
fundamentally different ages,
right?

1309
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:01,000
Just to cut you off, please,
because I love doing.

1310
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:02,960
That, yeah, I do too well on the
side, yeah.

1311
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,480
But let's say ABA therapy.
So I obviously I have ABA

1312
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,080
therapy company.
New York, New Jersey, Florida,

1313
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:10,200
whatever.
I'm growing.

1314
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:12,680
We service.
Thank God.

1315
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,880
Yeah, we service children,
teenagers and adults.

1316
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:18,480
It looks very.
Different.

1317
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:20,240
I believe it.
But it's the same principles.

1318
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:21,960
Right.
I believe that too, by the way.

1319
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:24,600
So.
That that's what comes out

1320
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:26,040
there.
I I hear from other therapists

1321
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:26,760
all the time.
They're like what?

1322
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:31,400
You service a 26 year old.
You know, we even had an adult

1323
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:32,920
reach out for service
themselves.

1324
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:36,320
Not not through a parent.
It it looks different, but it's

1325
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:37,480
the same.
Yeah, I believe it because these

1326
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:40,320
principles work.
That's the science works.

1327
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,520
The science is not wrong.
You want to tell me how this

1328
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:47,600
company is applying the science
is ineffective or or or wrong,

1329
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:49,920
then OK, But the science can't
be wrong.

1330
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:56,120
Very often and very often people
are applying these principles.

1331
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:58,600
They're like, ABA doesn't work,
ABA doesn't work.

1332
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:00,320
I have an effective way and
they're just applying the

1333
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:02,040
principles.
So yeah.

1334
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,480
I'm curious what you think of
this story and what you would

1335
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:10,240
like derive from it.
But I, so I, the 12th grade

1336
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,760
class that I'm teaching now, my,
they were my first class that I

1337
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,080
ever taught, right?
So 9th, they were 9th graders

1338
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:17,360
for, you know, when I started
teaching.

1339
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:19,840
And there's one, and there's one
particular student who was

1340
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,520
super, super excited to be
talking to or teaching again.

1341
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:27,880
And one of the reasons why is
because in 9th grade, he was so

1342
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:34,200
creative and so eloquent and so
good at like conjuring entire

1343
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:36,640
worlds in his head and then
capturing it and writing it down

1344
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:38,440
or expressing it.
Amazing, right?

1345
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:39,960
And I was so excited to teach
him again.

1346
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,640
And yesterday I gave him a
creative in the 12th graders.

1347
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:44,480
I'm not, we're not, I'm not
working them too hard.

1348
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,800
And yesterday I gave him a
assignment to do a creative

1349
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:50,440
story for 2 pages.
And the student comes up to me

1350
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:52,200
and goes, what's the point in
creativity?

1351
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:56,120
And like this, I couldn't
believe that he said it to me,

1352
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:57,960
right?
So I said, dude, I know you have

1353
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:00,320
it in you because I've seen it
before.

1354
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:01,840
He goes, what are you talking
about?

1355
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,800
And he just sat back down and,
you know, talking to his friends

1356
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,880
and like not paying attention.
And I went to my e-mail and I

1357
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,360
pulled up a couple of the things
that stories that he wrote, the

1358
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:11,880
short stories that he wrote from
9th grade.

1359
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,640
And I was like, dude, come here.
He came over and I showed him my

1360
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:17,920
screen and I showed him two of
them.

1361
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:22,080
And he's like, who wrote this?
I'm like, dude, you wrote this.

1362
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:24,000
And I was, he was like, I wrote
that.

1363
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:26,480
I was like, yeah.
I was like, I'm certain that

1364
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:28,320
you're creative and I'm certain
that you have that.

1365
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:31,320
And he's like, and then like,
like you saw some like switch in

1366
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:34,480
his head and he was like, yeah,
OK, I got it.

1367
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:35,600
And then he sat down and he
just.

1368
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:39,840
And he just got to it.
And I was like, it was, it was,

1369
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:44,040
I mean, for a moment I was like
legitimately upset, but not like

1370
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:46,320
upset, but like you're like,
he's this kid was.

1371
01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:48,440
He's messing with me.
Not even that.

1372
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,920
I, I, I was sad.
I, I was like this kid, like,

1373
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:53,320
and I was afraid of this
happening.

1374
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:57,080
Actually, I remember when I was
talking to my friends about that

1375
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:59,920
particular kid, I'm like, what I
enjoyed about teaching 9th grade

1376
01:05:59,920 --> 01:06:01,920
is that they're uninhibited and
they're not afraid to be

1377
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,280
creative and to throw out crazy
ideas and be wacky.

1378
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:06,000
And I was like, I wonder what
that's going to be like when

1379
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:07,920
they're older.
And now that I have him four

1380
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:12,240
years later and I'm like, no, he
like, he, like, he lost it.

1381
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:14,560
But like, he didn't, you know,
he just, he didn't, he didn't

1382
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,960
exercise that muscle at all for,
for, for three years or for 2

1383
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:21,280
1/2 years.
So obviously my mind's like, you

1384
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:21,800
know.
Yeah.

1385
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:24,760
What do you think about this I?
Don't want to go down this

1386
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:29,040
rabbit hole, but the system and
I don't want to go down this

1387
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:31,320
rabbit hole.
I've thought about it tons of

1388
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,640
times.
The system we have today school

1389
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,880
wise doesn't promote creativity.
I'm not that.

1390
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:41,360
Yeah, All right.
Now people are like, oh, so the

1391
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:44,200
school I have, I've actually put
some thought to it.

1392
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:47,120
Now, I'm not going to say I'm
like a genius and like, if I

1393
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,640
can't come up through the
reason, yeah, I sure that

1394
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:55,560
there's some type of solution.
But I haven't come up with with

1395
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:58,840
a way that we could have a
school system that encourages

1396
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:01,280
creativity, that encourages, not
encourages creativity, but that

1397
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:05,560
could be flexible in terms of
whether it's creativity or

1398
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:10,000
whether it's, you know, being,
you know, smaller classes,

1399
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:11,360
designing it and stuff like
that.

1400
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:12,640
Sure.
Just stuff like that.

1401
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:17,080
So if a child is being punished,
so to speak, for his creativity,

1402
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:22,000
yeah, that's that's that's.
I've seen it like myself, you

1403
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:24,200
know.
It's a really hard line.

1404
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:26,080
It's a very slippery slope
because what's being what's the

1405
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:28,880
difference between silly or not
trying and being creative for a

1406
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:30,520
lot of a lot of times?
When you're a teacher.

1407
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:33,560
So I have that teacher
experience, but I also have that

1408
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:37,720
like a child, ADHD being put on
meds, not getting behavioral

1409
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:40,280
therapy and like, see my
brother, who also clearly had

1410
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,640
ADHD, getting sent from school
to school to school.

1411
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:45,520
Yeah.
And what that does to a kid who.

1412
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:46,800
Oh yeah.
Self esteem.

1413
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:47,680
Oh, yeah.
And it's.

1414
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:49,000
And it's not them.
It's not.

1415
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:51,760
No, definitely not.
It's not no.

1416
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:53,120
Not everyone is supposed to be a
square.

1417
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:55,720
Not everyone is a square.
But we're taking, we are taking

1418
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,000
25 to 30 kids and putting them
in a room and saying.

1419
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:00,240
To shit show.
Excuse my language.

1420
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:02,360
Yeah, it really is.
Yeah, I guess we are going down

1421
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:04,960
this rabbit, but like, how are
you going to have, how are you

1422
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:09,680
going to have 25 to 30 kids?
Even 15, even 15 is hard.

1423
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:11,880
Even 1520, yeah, agreeing with
that.

1424
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:16,880
How are you going to have
classroom that's not chaotic but

1425
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:18,560
also proves creativity?
Yeah.

1426
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:21,640
So what ends up happening is you
have to come in, sit in your

1427
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,720
seat, you have one kid yelling
that could destroy a whole.

1428
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:25,680
Class Yes.
Yes.

1429
01:08:28,359 --> 01:08:29,800
Who's that fault?
I don't know.

1430
01:08:30,279 --> 01:08:32,720
But you can't blame it on the
teacher because they have 1520

1431
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:34,319
kids in there, right?
You can't.

1432
01:08:34,319 --> 01:08:36,080
Blame it on the kid because
they're stuck by the desk for

1433
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:36,479
10.
Hours.

1434
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:39,399
Can't blame it on the kid
because forget A50, you know,

1435
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:40,840
forget everyone.
That's cool.

1436
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,120
By the time they get to school,
they've had a whole day.

1437
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:44,120
Yeah.
Waited for the bus.

1438
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:45,319
Missed the bus?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1439
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:46,520
Yeah.
Woke up by the parents.

1440
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:47,240
Yeah.
Yeah.

1441
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:48,200
All these things.
Yeah.

1442
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:50,560
Who?
But they had a long day and

1443
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:51,439
they're.
They're sitting there.

1444
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:54,160
Yeah.
And then there's also the point

1445
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:58,439
of people have to work.
So like the homeschool model,

1446
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:00,359
you know?
Doesn't always work.

1447
01:09:00,359 --> 01:09:02,240
Right.
It's not so practical for a lot

1448
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:03,680
of people.
Yeah, you.

1449
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:07,279
Have a fan of homeschool?
Just vaguely or as vague as

1450
01:09:07,319 --> 01:09:10,479
possible.
It's very hard because I'm a fan

1451
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:13,200
of a lot of stuff, but you could
be a fan of something that could

1452
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:14,520
be totally taken out of context,
right?

1453
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:15,359
You know what I mean?
Yeah.

1454
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:19,720
So for the right people, you
know, if a parent's overwhelm

1455
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:22,520
them, homeschooling the kid
might do more, more damage.

1456
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:25,319
If you're talking about.
And I've seen some homeschool

1457
01:09:25,319 --> 01:09:29,240
situations like this where a
group of local parents chip in

1458
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:33,479
for for a teacher.
The teacher has six kids, seven

1459
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:36,800
kids in in their group.
Yeah, they're outside.

1460
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:39,720
It's like more home based.
So it's not in the classroom, so

1461
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:42,319
to speak.
They're outside learning math.

1462
01:09:42,319 --> 01:09:45,439
Then they just go inside.
They have their lunch that I'm a

1463
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:46,880
fan.
They have their social.

1464
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:47,680
Yeah.
It's.

1465
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:49,560
Structure but loose structure
structure.

1466
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:53,000
No, it doesn't have to be loose
structure.

1467
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:56,160
It could say we're going outside
now, we're giving you, we're

1468
01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:56,800
having recess.
Fun.

1469
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:00,400
But what you do outside, meaning
that that's loose, yeah.

1470
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:02,480
Yeah, it could be a looser
schedule, right?

1471
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:04,760
But to say loose structure, I'm
not a fan of structure.

1472
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:06,000
And boundaries are very
important.

1473
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:08,920
The kids.
Children thrive on structure.

1474
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:12,680
And you see it in adults also.
If they have structure, kids are

1475
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:14,640
going to push back on structure.
They're always going to put

1476
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:16,280
track on structure, but they're
going to thrive off that

1477
01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:18,480
structure, right?
So the answer is not no

1478
01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:21,920
structure.
The answer is structuring it in

1479
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:23,280
a flexible way.
Yes, fine.

1480
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:24,200
Great way to put it.
OK, Yeah.

1481
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:25,200
Excellent way to.
Put it so.

1482
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:28,360
You could have a.
Hitting your podcast rhythm over

1483
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:29,080
here.
There you go.

1484
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:31,440
It's great.
They're getting.

1485
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:33,640
Smooth.
Now you're getting in the zone.

1486
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:37,760
You could, you could have a
younger classroom that's doing

1487
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,080
big blocks of time.
We're doing 11:50.

1488
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:42,840
We're doing one activity and
this is the structure.

1489
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:44,640
No, everyone has to color it
down, right?

1490
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:46,880
That's too long.
But you can have a different

1491
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:49,840
class that's doing 15 minute
increments of a structured

1492
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,120
activity.
Yes, yes, that's catering to the

1493
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:52,680
kids.
Yeah.

1494
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:54,760
And stuff like that.
Yeah, bringing out the strong

1495
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,960
points and stuff like that.
So the answer's no.

1496
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:00,400
The answer's no.
Home school isn't the answer.

1497
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:04,360
And because how you do at home
school is a big fact.

1498
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:06,720
Yes, for sure.
Kids go to school for social.

1499
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:10,800
Yeah.
And I see this because we, we

1500
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:14,080
you know, in, in some, in some
of the places we work, we're

1501
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:16,920
dealing with a lot of middle
school students now, 6th, 7th,

1502
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:18,440
8th graders that are following
up the system.

1503
01:11:18,440 --> 01:11:20,680
They're not bad kids.
They're not hitting the teacher.

1504
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:22,480
They're not being anyone.
They are following out of the

1505
01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:24,800
system.
Yeah, because they don't have

1506
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:27,400
that drive to go to school.
They don't have that motivation.

1507
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:29,840
Why would they?
Well, what if you?

1508
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:31,160
Had presented well, they would
be.

1509
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:34,800
Well, no, the actual education,
who wants to learn unless

1510
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:37,160
there's something that they're
learning their interests though,

1511
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:40,080
OK, sure.
So that's one thing that can be

1512
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:41,160
motivating for a kid to go to
school.

1513
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:43,880
What's the second thing?
Social.

1514
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:48,000
If they have friends, if they're
struggling socially, they may

1515
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:50,960
not want to go to school.
They're not a bad kid, They just

1516
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:52,960
need those skills.
Sure.

1517
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:55,720
That's my therapist side.
They're like, but they just need

1518
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,640
those skills and taught them in
a compassionate way, in a slow

1519
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:00,160
way.
And there's great books out

1520
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:02,240
there for parents.
There's a great book out there

1521
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:05,960
called Growing Friendships and
it's social skills books and

1522
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:09,400
it's made for elementary kids
and it's written in a very

1523
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:13,160
elementary school friendly way.
What's it called?

1524
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:15,680
Growing Friendships by Doctor
Kennedy and Moore.

1525
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:23,040
OK, extremely big fan of that
and there's resources out there,

1526
01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:27,680
but obviously I I think the nice
that yeah, really schools don't

1527
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:29,040
do enough for teaching social
skills.

1528
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:32,400
If someone wants a business
idea, what's the this?

1529
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:35,640
If someone wants a business
idea, create a create and

1530
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:37,680
implement a social skills
program.

1531
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:40,200
And there are out there, but I
don't think it's it's being

1532
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:44,480
mainstream for primary, first
grade, for pre like

1533
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:46,880
kindergarten, everyone calls it,
some people call it pre on a

1534
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:48,280
some people call it primary,
some people call it

1535
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:49,840
kindergarten, kindergarten,
first grade.

1536
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:52,520
Teach us this core social skills
then.

1537
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:54,520
Which what are what are social
skills that are important to

1538
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:56,960
emphasize there agreeability or
sharing?

1539
01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:00,360
Agreeability is not a social
skill agreeing with someone.

1540
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:04,360
No, what you mean ability?
No ability to work with people.

1541
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:06,400
Yeah, that's a social skill,
listening.

1542
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:08,560
Listening is a huge one.
Wait.

1543
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:12,240
And I think, I think I don't
want to be that person, like,

1544
01:13:12,440 --> 01:13:15,120
oh, people nowadays, whatever,
they're terrible.

1545
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:19,440
But there's something to say
that if adults aren't, you know,

1546
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:21,560
where, where kids learning
social skills now from their

1547
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:25,120
from their parents.
So often times you'll see a

1548
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:28,600
parent can't listen to another
person's opinion and it's my way

1549
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:30,360
or the highway.
The kid will have the same way.

1550
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:31,480
Yeah, because they're learning
it that way.

1551
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:33,040
Yeah.
But if we're coming in as a

1552
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:35,600
school and filling the need that
we're supposed to be teaching

1553
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:38,080
that social skill.
And don't get me wrong, even as

1554
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:40,040
a high school teacher, you could
be teaching high school skills.

1555
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:43,760
I I emphasize.
It very strongly it it looks a

1556
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:45,280
little bit different than
teachers that can get our

1557
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:48,800
primary where they got our first
grade where where they're the

1558
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:56,280
perfect candidate for it.
But but it has to be taught.

1559
01:13:56,440 --> 01:13:56,800
Yeah.
Right.

1560
01:13:57,080 --> 01:13:59,800
And and if they're going to
learn from their parents that

1561
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:01,760
aren't listening to other
people's with different

1562
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:03,560
opinions, that's also harder.
Yeah.

1563
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,400
Another big social skill.
And this is the I think one of

1564
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:09,960
the most important ones.
Finding common grounds.

1565
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:12,400
Yes.
OK, Dale Carnegie speaks in his

1566
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:15,720
book that's called Quote UN
quote, Social Skills for Adults.

1567
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:18,960
And if you think about it, who
did you hang out with when you

1568
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:21,520
were kids?
Whatever you had most in common

1569
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:22,200
with.
Yeah, it could be.

1570
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:24,840
You had one friend group that
talked about sports and another

1571
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:26,200
friend group that talked about
cars.

1572
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:29,600
It's actually the answer to
tribal, tribal behavior, right?

1573
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:31,880
Because tribal behavior is
noticing what's different about

1574
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:34,480
us, you know, tribal conflict, I
guess, right?

1575
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:36,320
I had a friend, I had friends
that come, that came to visit

1576
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:39,120
the community.
I had like, I jumped around

1577
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:41,520
different like religious level
type communities throughout my

1578
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:45,440
life.
So I had a more modern Orthodox,

1579
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:49,160
you know, phase, I guess that
what you'd call it or, or a

1580
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:50,680
point of my life where I'd hung
hang out.

1581
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,720
I was more in that world.
And they came to visit the

1582
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:57,440
community one time and they came
to show and they saw all these

1583
01:14:57,440 --> 01:14:59,000
guys wearing black hats and
white shirts.

1584
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:00,680
And they're like, oh, we have
nothing in common with these

1585
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:02,480
people and like, we're not going
to talk to them.

1586
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:05,520
I kiddush.
I'm like, what are you talking

1587
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:06,880
about?
I'm like, dude, you guys have

1588
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:09,240
wives, you guys have kids.
You guys are trying to put food

1589
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:10,840
on the table.
You guys have jobs that either

1590
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:14,440
you like or don't like.
You certainly had like these are

1591
01:15:14,440 --> 01:15:17,920
a group of there's 3030 year
olds in this room that all are

1592
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:19,600
in the same place in life as you
are.

1593
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:22,480
Just because they're wearing a
different hat than you doesn't

1594
01:15:22,480 --> 01:15:23,720
mean that you guys have nothing
in common.

1595
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:26,040
And I just want to point out
this is not specific to any

1596
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:27,920
minor, orthodox or no.
No, no, no, no, no, no.

1597
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:29,920
This is what people do.
This is what people as a human

1598
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:30,840
beings do.
People do it in.

1599
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:33,280
In everyday life, yeah, they in
the room and.

1600
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:35,120
And before even speaking to
them, they're like.

1601
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:40,400
Yeah.
Yeah, but I'm in the business

1602
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:41,880
world.
I can see someone, a mono

1603
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:44,240
orthodox person and then ultra
orthodox person.

1604
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:47,360
And they have a, they're working
together because they they took

1605
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:48,480
the time to speak to each other
and they.

1606
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:49,800
Have a lot of common.
A lot of common.

1607
01:15:50,440 --> 01:15:53,240
And believe it or not, we all
have a lot of common for sure,

1608
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:57,440
whether if I have an interest in
something and you hate that,

1609
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:01,720
that's a common thing, Yeah.
And we can discuss that and and

1610
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:04,400
depending on how I.
Don't know how, it's how it's

1611
01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:05,720
presented.
How it's presented, yeah.

1612
01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:08,560
It's not like me against you.
It's more like conversation, the

1613
01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:10,560
exchanging.
Of ideas as opposed to trying to

1614
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:11,760
see who's right.
Yeah.

1615
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:16,240
So, yeah, very often we do that
and that's an important social

1616
01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:18,640
skill.
I think people don't realize it,

1617
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:24,000
but these are all different
social skills that I don't think

1618
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:26,800
kids are taught.
And if a kid is not socially

1619
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:28,320
driven to school, why would they
go to school?

1620
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:30,080
Tell me what's the reason why
your kid?

1621
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:32,280
The reason why I hated high
school the first two years

1622
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:34,080
because I didn't I didn't like
the kids that were there.

1623
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:36,880
It was but.
How would you go?

1624
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:38,320
I didn't.
I didn't want to.

1625
01:16:38,440 --> 01:16:40,320
Right to learn.
Well I was doing badly in school

1626
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:42,480
too so I thought that I wasn't
learning or getting friends and

1627
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:46,480
I was like but over 2.
For most kids, every kid's

1628
01:16:46,480 --> 01:16:48,120
different.
Now, some kids will enjoy that

1629
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:51,680
intellectual conversation and
some kids will first say, I have

1630
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:54,000
the greatest science teacher.
I'm going to school for my

1631
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:55,600
science teacher, forget about
friends.

1632
01:16:55,760 --> 01:17:00,520
But for what I often see is
like, kids are not academic

1633
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:02,600
driven, right?
We're putting them in this box.

1634
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:05,720
And then they may be missing
social skills and struggling

1635
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:09,240
socially and that's it.
They're like, I can't go to

1636
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:10,600
school.
I'm not going to go to school.

1637
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:14,560
And it's not so much of the
parents forcing them to school

1638
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:17,320
because there's two parts.
Yes, the parents should have a

1639
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:19,080
balance.
Your best you'll have to go to

1640
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:21,480
school if there's a structure.
I'm a big fan of kids taking

1641
01:17:21,480 --> 01:17:22,600
off.
Yeah, me too.

1642
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:24,640
But kids taking off plants off
days.

1643
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:26,920
Yeah, mental health days.
My plan you.

1644
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:30,000
Know this is something I
discussed with my wife before

1645
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:34,200
before we got married it's like
a kid says like wow you know

1646
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:37,560
kids struggling yeah you want to
take off Thursday you take off

1647
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:39,800
Thursday yeah no waking up
Monday morning and say I'm

1648
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:42,680
thinking of studying that's not
resilience that's not teaching

1649
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:45,800
them resilience you want to wake
up Monday and it's a hard day

1650
01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:47,480
that's interesting you're going
to push through that's really

1651
01:17:47,480 --> 01:17:49,040
interesting that's just my.
That's a great way.

1652
01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:52,160
That's a great way to put it,
because once you're already

1653
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:53,360
committed to the day, you got to
be committed.

1654
01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:56,960
To the day it's pushing through.
Why are people not so resilient

1655
01:17:56,960 --> 01:17:59,200
nowadays?
And I don't know, I'm not saying

1656
01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:03,880
this as like a yeah, you see it,
People aren't pushing through.

1657
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:05,680
It because you have a lot of
convenience and so there's a lot

1658
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:07,840
of roundabout ways to get what
you want without having to work

1659
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:09,520
hard.
I think it's also that people

1660
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:11,000
are taught that they don't have
to be resilient.

1661
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:14,200
You have a hard test.
OK Let me ask the teacher if we

1662
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:18,000
could take it a different day.
You know, you're having a hard

1663
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:20,200
day.
OK Science, you stay home today.

1664
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:23,240
No, a planned off day.
I'm a big fan of planned off

1665
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:24,680
days.
But it's a really interesting

1666
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:26,120
idea, I never heard of it
presented like that.

1667
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:30,480
But waking up in the moment sick
is totally different.

1668
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:33,880
Even when you're working on
skills, you know someone being

1669
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:34,440
sick.
Yeah.

1670
01:18:34,440 --> 01:18:36,040
What are you going?
To do is it's not something you

1671
01:18:36,040 --> 01:18:39,040
know now if it becomes a common
thing and it becomes it's like a

1672
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:40,840
fake thing, OK, that's a
different story.

1673
01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:45,360
Planned off days is a way you
push through that hardship and

1674
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:48,200
that builds builds resilience.
But giving that them the off

1675
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:51,600
day, giving them that, I feel
like I went on a little bit.

1676
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:53,520
Of a no, no, we're, we're,
we're, we're flowing.

1677
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:55,480
But I I don't remember how we
got.

1678
01:18:55,480 --> 01:18:57,200
Here you got here because of my
classroom, because that's not my

1679
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,840
student, remember, and a student
that I thought was creative that

1680
01:18:59,880 --> 01:19:01,840
is creative that.
Is creative, but they're not.

1681
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,360
And we said we learned something
along the way in those two years

1682
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:06,680
between him having me as a
freshman and him having me as a

1683
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:09,320
senior, where he felt like,
what's the point of creativity?

1684
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:11,840
And he hasn't exercised that
muscle, even though it was so

1685
01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:15,240
potent at such a young age.
Going back to that also, you're

1686
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:17,640
a unique teacher.
Yeah, I think so.

1687
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:19,920
I've never been in your
classroom just from hearing used

1688
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:21,960
to be just from hearing a bat in
your classroom.

1689
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:24,280
I think the way you run a
classroom is unique.

1690
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:29,880
Now that being thing, your class
may have promoted creativity.

1691
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:34,000
So 9th grade is you're you're
promoting creativity with them.

1692
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:36,680
Other teachers along the way
didn't promote that creativity.

1693
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:38,520
And he's like, I have to hide
this.

1694
01:19:39,320 --> 01:19:40,440
Yeah, I have to hide it so I
could.

1695
01:19:40,440 --> 01:19:42,200
Say that's sad to me.
It is sad.

1696
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:45,760
It's very sad to me.
But as parents, we got to be, we

1697
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:49,720
got to, we got to, you know,
each kid is unique.

1698
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:52,680
I, I see it with my, my 2 girls,
like one has a strong

1699
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:54,840
personality and, and I was
discussing another.

1700
01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:58,680
We have to learn.
And I, I'm like, I'm like, oh,

1701
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:01,280
I'm a therapist.
So like, you know, or I'm a, you

1702
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:04,680
know, I have this knowledge or
no, we have to learn how to

1703
01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:09,080
build her personality, not make
excuses for it.

1704
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:10,080
Yeah.
Right.

1705
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:11,640
Well, she's not going to, I
don't, I'm not going to looking

1706
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:13,520
to give her off because she has
a personality.

1707
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:18,840
I'm looking to invest and
promote her to to to thrive on

1708
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:22,920
her personality.
You know, obviously have the

1709
01:20:23,080 --> 01:20:26,440
have the good parts of the
personality really shine and the

1710
01:20:26,480 --> 01:20:29,640
parts that come along with it,
you know, minimize it and learn

1711
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:33,680
how to navigate it.
And my other daughter is not

1712
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:35,720
such a strong personality.
She's a happy go lucky.

1713
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:39,120
Yeah, it's a it's, it's, it's a
different parenting style.

1714
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:40,760
Yeah.
It's not the same one box.

1715
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:42,720
It's all.
So there's also, you know, we

1716
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:44,960
could blame it on schools all we
want, but there's a home piece

1717
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:48,240
also that huge that people
people have to realize that it's

1718
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:49,800
on you.
Too, You can't hand on You can't

1719
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:53,320
hand on the responsibility of
parenthood to a teacher.

1720
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:55,560
There's so there's a whole
structure.

1721
01:20:55,640 --> 01:21:00,800
Like I said before, parents, not
parents like children thrive on

1722
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:02,400
structure.
So you want to say that

1723
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:06,840
homeschool thing very often and
I'm I hate to be this

1724
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:10,840
characteristic person like sit
like character categorized, but

1725
01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:14,640
I find I find that homeschool
people are more lenient when it

1726
01:21:14,640 --> 01:21:16,760
comes to boundaries and
structure.

1727
01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:20,440
Then it takes away from what the
kid thrives on.

1728
01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:24,160
We were talking about before.
So I'm also a sleep sleep

1729
01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:25,720
specialist, like a certified
sleep specialist.

1730
01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:28,040
That's cool.
So yeah, it's a whole another

1731
01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:30,600
like angle and sleep and
understanding how sleep works.

1732
01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:33,680
But a lot of it is structure,
setting up that routine,

1733
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:35,640
bedtime, that routine for that
child.

1734
01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:39,960
And that's the hardest of the
parents because they're like, I

1735
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:41,440
have to put my kid to bed at
6:00.

1736
01:21:41,440 --> 01:21:42,720
I want to go out with friends,
whatever.

1737
01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:45,920
But having that routine is that
structure that the kids thrive

1738
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:48,600
on, right?
The kid has a faulty stimulus

1739
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:50,760
that when it gets dark, I can go
to sleep.

1740
01:21:51,440 --> 01:21:53,440
And I went to go to sleep early.
And then some of them go to

1741
01:21:53,440 --> 01:21:55,600
sleep late.
But if you're focused on that,

1742
01:21:55,600 --> 01:22:00,040
like this is the routine.
Shower, snack, brush your teeth.

1743
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:04,200
Yeah, read a book, read a book
in bed or read a book and then

1744
01:22:04,200 --> 01:22:07,560
bed, then that that's going to
teach them like, oh, I do these

1745
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:08,880
steps.
I'm going to get sleepy

1746
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:09,960
automatically.
Yeah.

1747
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:12,200
And the more and I've seen it
it.

1748
01:22:12,600 --> 01:22:15,080
Usually requires patience, by
the way, I've noticed because

1749
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:18,120
like even times like let's say
like with shoe, I got my son,

1750
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:20,360
you know, there'll be times
where he's not tired at a

1751
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:23,640
certain point and like we try to
like force him into bed and he's

1752
01:22:23,640 --> 01:22:25,480
just not like you could tell
you're just not ready to go to

1753
01:22:25,480 --> 01:22:27,840
bed yet.
And so I'll have to read another

1754
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:30,720
book and even though it's not
what I really want to do or

1755
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:33,000
like, you know, like what I'm
think I'm like I, I have other

1756
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:36,280
things I have to be doing now.
But being patients, reading that

1757
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:39,080
book again, reading another book
with him if he's not ready to go

1758
01:22:39,080 --> 01:22:44,800
to sleep yet is just continuing
that like calming environment

1759
01:22:44,800 --> 01:22:47,760
trajectory that he needs to get
get settled in for bed.

1760
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:49,760
Structure doesn't mean that you
can't be flexible.

1761
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:52,920
That's what I think people
people have a hard time with

1762
01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:53,760
that balance.
So what?

1763
01:22:54,040 --> 01:22:57,280
So let's define structure and
flexibility then, so that people

1764
01:22:57,280 --> 01:22:58,360
understand what the difference
would.

1765
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:01,480
Be I don't think I'm going to
ask you for your help on this

1766
01:23:01,480 --> 01:23:03,480
one, OK?
But I would say structure is

1767
01:23:03,480 --> 01:23:06,200
let's say having let's say let's
you're talking the bedtime

1768
01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:07,880
routine.
So I talk about bedtime routine

1769
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:10,680
that structure, OK?
We're going to be flexible.

1770
01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:13,200
It's going to start between 5:45
and 6:15.

1771
01:23:13,400 --> 01:23:15,080
OK, right.
So we're going to be a little

1772
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:17,680
flexible like that.
Or it's going to usually start

1773
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:20,080
for I-45, but the kid took a nap
during the day, so we're going

1774
01:23:20,080 --> 01:23:23,680
to have to start it later.
The kids not tired, clearly.

1775
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:25,680
So we're going to start.
It be flexible with when the

1776
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:28,680
structure occurs, but you still
need that structure within that,

1777
01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:30,800
right?
So it's it's.

1778
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:34,120
That's a good way of putting it.
And that's keeping the structure

1779
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:35,120
but not throwing it out the
window.

1780
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:38,040
That's really cool.
And that Would you say it's

1781
01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:41,000
hard?
I'm a parent and kudos to my

1782
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:42,160
wife.
She puts in a lot of the hard

1783
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:46,200
work and, you know, every day
and like, a lot of it falls on

1784
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:46,800
her.
Yeah.

1785
01:23:47,560 --> 01:23:51,680
And she's, you know, very, very
onto the sleep schedule.

1786
01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:55,640
Probably more, you know, Mm hmm.
Not, not rigid, but more on top

1787
01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:56,520
of it than me.
Yeah.

1788
01:23:57,720 --> 01:24:00,160
And it's hard.
You know, it's like, especially

1789
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:03,280
when when the baby, when the
girls were younger, it's like,

1790
01:24:03,280 --> 01:24:06,960
OK, no, we can't go out.
No, we can't go to the party or

1791
01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:09,920
we can't go to a test unless we
have it's all set up.

1792
01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:11,960
Or we could go only go after the
Yeah at.

1793
01:24:11,960 --> 01:24:15,560
This point.
So it takes a sacrifice, but I,

1794
01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:18,600
I think I don't, I don't know of
anyone that would say that

1795
01:24:18,640 --> 01:24:21,520
parenting is not a successful
parenting doesn't take a

1796
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:23,240
sacrifice.
It takes constant sacrifice.

1797
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:27,320
But that's part of, you know.
What it is?

1798
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:29,960
The the pride and what you're
building.

1799
01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:34,280
But when you when you see it.
And you and you grow if you're

1800
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:37,280
not because a lot of times
you're not forced to be where

1801
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:39,600
our brains are evolving as as we
take on different

1802
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:43,160
responsibilities.
Well, I think also the hard part

1803
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:47,840
about about parenting is
changing our behaviors, right?

1804
01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:49,880
Yeah, you know, I still walk out
of the house sometimes with my

1805
01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:52,640
six month old daughter without a
diaper and I can't believe I

1806
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:55,920
love that.
I I I left it for an hour and a

1807
01:24:55,920 --> 01:24:57,960
half and like, I'm assuming
she's not going to go to the

1808
01:24:57,960 --> 01:24:59,720
bathroom.
It's so stupid of me but.

1809
01:25:00,680 --> 01:25:02,000
I can say I'm guilty of that as
well.

1810
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:06,320
It's it's also like I have two
girls.

1811
01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:08,880
So I don't know if you see the,
you know, the difference.

1812
01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:12,720
Oh yeah.
And she was since since my

1813
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:13,960
daughter was born, you can see
the.

1814
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:17,520
Difference as like I have a 2
year old, a four year old and

1815
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:21,480
and they're so different.
That makes me say like I can't

1816
01:25:21,480 --> 01:25:23,320
do the regular way I'm doing for
one for the other.

1817
01:25:23,480 --> 01:25:24,760
That's a conscious thing.
That's more effort.

1818
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:27,440
That's me changing myself,
that's me working myself and

1819
01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:29,920
ultimately I'm I'm a better.
Person as dimensions to who you

1820
01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:31,720
are for sure.
In depth.

1821
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:32,560
Excuse me?
Yeah.

1822
01:25:33,200 --> 01:25:36,920
So it's, I think that's that
that structure, the flexible

1823
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:40,560
flexibility within the structure
is important, but structure is

1824
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:43,400
important, you know.
And customize structure

1825
01:25:43,400 --> 01:25:44,480
depending on who you're dealing
with.

1826
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:47,360
Yeah, it's also, it's one of
those things where where

1827
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:50,640
sometimes I know we learned from
the science to like now talking

1828
01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:55,160
about like application, but
parents will often like

1829
01:25:55,160 --> 01:25:57,760
threaten, so to speak, but not
follow through.

1830
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:01,600
And one of my mentors told me
this.

1831
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:04,840
And then obviously once I went
into to the science and the

1832
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:06,680
therapy and became certified,
I'm like this.

1833
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:09,280
I learned this.
Yeah, you don't say no often,

1834
01:26:09,280 --> 01:26:10,520
but when you say no, you got to
keep it.

1835
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:15,280
Yeah.
So me and my wife, like if we by

1836
01:26:15,280 --> 01:26:18,680
mistake say a threat and we know
it's going to be hard to keep

1837
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:20,640
it, we both look at each other
and we're like, now we have to

1838
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:23,480
keep it.
Like if we say if you don't, you

1839
01:26:23,480 --> 01:26:26,080
know, do this, then we're going
to have to leave the party.

1840
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:28,800
We just hurt ourselves.
Now we have to leave the party.

1841
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:33,240
So we we refrain from saying
that unless it's a serious thing

1842
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:36,600
that that that's really
interesting that that should we

1843
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:39,880
should be leaving the party for.
I just gave that example.

1844
01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:42,960
But it goes in any area, right?
Don't tell your kid no.

1845
01:26:43,480 --> 01:26:45,920
They can't have a candy if
you're going to end up giving

1846
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:48,040
them the candy when they want
it.

1847
01:26:49,160 --> 01:26:53,000
Now, you could say no.
And if you regret it, you would

1848
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:55,560
say the answer's still no.
But if you would like to earn

1849
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:56,800
it, here's a way.
Yeah.

1850
01:26:56,960 --> 01:26:58,960
So now you didn't throw out your
no.

1851
01:26:59,400 --> 01:27:01,080
You change the game.
You change the game and you're

1852
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:03,160
giving them an option to get
what they want.

1853
01:27:04,520 --> 01:27:07,240
So that's always a way that
people could be flexible when

1854
01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:09,000
they were originally not
flexible and that also.

1855
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:13,040
Teaches it also teaches the
process of having to invest

1856
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:15,880
effort into getting a reward.
Which is extremely important.

1857
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:21,160
And I think people often will
say about ABA therapy like it's

1858
01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:23,600
bribery.
It's not bribery.

1859
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:25,200
You go to work.
How would it be considered

1860
01:27:25,200 --> 01:27:26,640
bribery?
Why?

1861
01:27:26,920 --> 01:27:28,080
Because I don't know anything
about ABA.

1862
01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:32,120
So let's just say I, you know,
we wanted to work on something

1863
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:38,760
with my, my Lily, you know, and
I said, if you do this, I'm

1864
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:42,440
going to give you a can, right?
Some people will say, oh, that's

1865
01:27:42,440 --> 01:27:44,600
bribery, right?
Yeah.

1866
01:27:44,920 --> 01:27:47,000
But I'm like, no, I'm
reinforcing them.

1867
01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:50,400
And also everything's kind of a
bribery, like where do we live

1868
01:27:50,440 --> 01:27:53,040
As for money?
But that's not bribery.

1869
01:27:53,440 --> 01:27:56,800
Well, it is because I can't.
I can't.

1870
01:27:57,320 --> 01:28:01,680
Well, sure, you know, and then
and obviously there's more

1871
01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:04,600
dynamics, power dynamics in
play, you know, between like

1872
01:28:04,600 --> 01:28:07,000
let's say an employer or an
employee or you know, someone

1873
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:09,680
that like is depending on
someone's paycheck or not.

1874
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:14,600
Life works with being with
behavior and reinforcement and

1875
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:18,080
obviously might not be as rigid
as I said in the beginning or

1876
01:28:18,080 --> 01:28:21,000
like in line as I said in the
beginning, but it may be going

1877
01:28:21,000 --> 01:28:23,960
to work and then getting that
reinforcement after two weeks or

1878
01:28:23,960 --> 01:28:26,960
4 weeks whenever the paid time
is So what you're teaching a

1879
01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:29,040
kid.
Like is that is that?

1880
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:31,240
Yeah.
And then slowly, you know, a

1881
01:28:31,240 --> 01:28:34,400
goal and in the therapy, which
is often done and in the in the

1882
01:28:34,480 --> 01:28:37,240
research it's often done, is we
spread that time from the

1883
01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:40,120
behaviour to the reward or
reinforcement.

1884
01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:42,160
Spread it, you spread it, spread
it.

1885
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:44,040
The ultimate goal is that they
should be able to wait.

1886
01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:46,320
Why?
That's what real life's about.

1887
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:50,720
Now what I what my opinion and I
think I got this from Doctor

1888
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:53,160
Amanda Kelly who she goes by
Behaviour Babe.

1889
01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:55,880
She behaviour babe, yeah.
She has a great podcast.

1890
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:57,800
Good stuff.
What's the difference between

1891
01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:02,200
reinforcement and bribery?
You want to give a shout at it?

1892
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:09,040
Bribery would be something would
be an action that, I'm sorry,

1893
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:11,040
bribery.
Bribery would be something that

1894
01:29:11,040 --> 01:29:13,320
the person doesn't feel any
value about their action.

1895
01:29:14,440 --> 01:29:15,640
They're neutral about the
action.

1896
01:29:18,440 --> 01:29:20,080
They just want the end
consequence.

1897
01:29:20,120 --> 01:29:25,000
And then reinforcement would be
that the process is important.

1898
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:28,720
It's it's emphasizing the value
of the process and the positive

1899
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:32,160
consequences as a result of it.
So what she says.

1900
01:29:32,280 --> 01:29:35,120
And I'm going to, yeah, I'm
going to give like a a little

1901
01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:36,280
rebuttal.
Not not to.

1902
01:29:36,280 --> 01:29:37,080
Sure.
Yeah, of course.

1903
01:29:37,200 --> 01:29:39,920
I I that's just a guess I have.
No, I, I like, I like, I like

1904
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:41,280
what you're saying because I
think that.

1905
01:29:41,400 --> 01:29:42,960
Like bribing someone to do
something they don't give, they

1906
01:29:42,960 --> 01:29:44,240
don't care about.
And so like, they're like, Oh

1907
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:46,400
yeah, I'll just do this because
like, I'm getting something out

1908
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:47,560
of it.
But if you teach someone that

1909
01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:50,680
running is good for you, it'd be
like the process of running is

1910
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:52,480
actually healthy and to get a
consequence that I like.

1911
01:29:52,480 --> 01:29:54,600
You could reinforce someone for
the same thing, yeah.

1912
01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:55,720
OK, so what's the?
Difference.

1913
01:29:55,720 --> 01:29:58,600
I think Behavior Wave says it
like, you know, Doctor Amanda

1914
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:01,520
Kelly says it right.
She says it's about when you

1915
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:04,480
offer the reward, sort of.
When you offer the reward.

1916
01:30:04,880 --> 01:30:07,920
If you're like, hey, fine, can
you bring this inside?

1917
01:30:08,320 --> 01:30:10,040
And you're like, no, he said.
If you bring it inside, I'll

1918
01:30:10,040 --> 01:30:13,480
give you a candy.
I just brought you when I come

1919
01:30:13,480 --> 01:30:15,880
to you, fine, if you bring this
inside, I'll give you a candy.

1920
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:19,640
See the difference?
Yeah, yeah.

1921
01:30:21,120 --> 01:30:25,200
So that here, do this, if you do
this, I'm going to get you're

1922
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:27,680
going to get this.
That's like setting up the

1923
01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:29,920
reinforcement.
But if I'm going to say

1924
01:30:29,920 --> 01:30:33,320
something and then you're going
to say no and I'm going to say

1925
01:30:33,880 --> 01:30:35,760
if you do it, then you're going
to get this.

1926
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:39,440
That's bribery.
Now, if I say if I am bring this

1927
01:30:39,440 --> 01:30:44,320
in and you say sure, I can still
give you that, that consequence

1928
01:30:44,320 --> 01:30:46,200
of reinforcement after and say,
hey, great job.

1929
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:47,600
Yeah.
And that's still reinforcement

1930
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:50,440
because it, yeah, it'll increase
your likelihood when I asked you

1931
01:30:50,440 --> 01:30:53,000
to do something to do it again.
There's actually a book called

1932
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:54,920
Don't Shoot the Dog.
OK, A.

1933
01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:56,800
Lot of action.
Yeah, I do.

1934
01:30:56,840 --> 01:31:02,560
These iguanas are super busy.
There's a book called Don't

1935
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:06,760
Shoot the Dog and it focuses
just on constant on

1936
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:10,200
reinforcement, shaping behavior
by using reinforcement, not

1937
01:31:10,200 --> 01:31:13,360
punishment.
I highly recommend the book,

1938
01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:16,280
recommend it for parents,
recommend it for anyone.

1939
01:31:17,280 --> 01:31:19,880
It's really cool.
The book is a little bit more

1940
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:23,360
focused on training.
The idea is the person was an

1941
01:31:23,360 --> 01:31:24,440
adult trainer don't shoot the
dog.

1942
01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:27,520
But in it, the concepts are very
much applied.

1943
01:31:28,120 --> 01:31:32,160
There's a story how you know a
woman was married to someone

1944
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:33,960
that was displaying abusive
behavior.

1945
01:31:35,080 --> 01:31:37,480
Now if someone's in an abusive
relationship, get the get the

1946
01:31:37,480 --> 01:31:40,120
help you need.
Like this is not the this is not

1947
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:44,360
the answer, but something that
he would say nasty comments.

1948
01:31:44,360 --> 01:31:46,840
And I think even like the
father-in-law also lived there

1949
01:31:46,840 --> 01:31:52,560
and we're also and she's so and
she slowly shaped their behavior

1950
01:31:53,400 --> 01:31:57,880
by reinforcing them for when
they said good things and like

1951
01:31:57,960 --> 01:32:01,640
basically ignoring when they
they didn't say the nice things.

1952
01:32:02,080 --> 01:32:05,280
And over time, they became they.
They stopped.

1953
01:32:05,480 --> 01:32:07,160
Really.
They stopped displaying music

1954
01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:09,280
behavior.
For those nasty comments and

1955
01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:10,160
stuff like that.
Based.

1956
01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:13,040
Wow.
It's, it's the these principles.

1957
01:32:13,040 --> 01:32:13,880
It's.
Got to be a tough cookie though.

1958
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:16,320
To be able to to put that for
long enough, you got to be.

1959
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:17,120
Consistent.
Yeah.

1960
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:18,400
I don't know if saying this is
the answer.

1961
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:20,480
If someone's in a recent
relationship, get the help you

1962
01:32:20,480 --> 01:32:26,880
need and there's help out there.
You're able to shape behavior.

1963
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:28,640
These principles work.
That's right.

1964
01:32:28,640 --> 01:32:29,800
Nobody can tell me it doesn't
work.

1965
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:32,200
Yeah, I've seen it work.
And and there's a whole, you

1966
01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:34,560
know, going back to ABA therapy.
There's also another section

1967
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:36,160
called Organizational Behavioral
Management.

1968
01:32:36,720 --> 01:32:39,760
They have their own journal now,
but the same science just

1969
01:32:39,760 --> 01:32:43,120
applied in businesses.
If you want to make, if someone

1970
01:32:43,120 --> 01:32:45,320
has a business and they want
their employees to be more, more

1971
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:49,280
effective, profitable, not the
employees to be more profitable,

1972
01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:51,680
but more, you know, they want to
do the job better and, or

1973
01:32:51,680 --> 01:32:55,040
happier and stuff like that.
They'll come in, they'll survey

1974
01:32:55,040 --> 01:32:58,280
the situation and use the same
principles, apply it there and,

1975
01:32:58,280 --> 01:33:05,600
and see their success.
So there's there's that, there's

1976
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:07,200
that part that that behavior
could be shaped.

1977
01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:12,360
I know we went from from the
bribery reinforcement thing, but

1978
01:33:12,360 --> 01:33:15,400
I think we closed off the
bribery reinforcement place and

1979
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:18,160
going off that reinforcement
piece, it's very effective in

1980
01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:21,240
shaping behavior.
What, what if you present it

1981
01:33:21,240 --> 01:33:23,720
properly, it could shape
behavior over time.

1982
01:33:23,720 --> 01:33:27,240
There's don't shoot the dog do.
You think it helps to explain

1983
01:33:27,240 --> 01:33:30,960
what you're doing either during
or after so that they could so

1984
01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:32,360
they understand it for
themselves.

1985
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:33,840
Like it doesn't give it away to
like.

1986
01:33:33,960 --> 01:33:36,480
Like it doesn't ruin the magic
to see how the trick is to see

1987
01:33:36,480 --> 01:33:38,000
how they do the trick.
Give me an example what you're

1988
01:33:38,000 --> 01:33:39,760
saying because it's that's a
very it.

1989
01:33:40,280 --> 01:33:42,560
Like I told myself, I'll tell my
students for like again

1990
01:33:42,560 --> 01:33:44,320
yesterday with the case of the
kid that cursed yesterday,

1991
01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:47,080
right?
And like I said to him flat out,

1992
01:33:47,280 --> 01:33:51,920
the reason I'm sending you out
is because it is important that

1993
01:33:51,920 --> 01:33:55,480
you do not get used to this
behavior without seeing that

1994
01:33:55,480 --> 01:33:57,800
there's negative repercussions.
And I'd much rather you have a

1995
01:33:57,800 --> 01:34:00,080
negative repercussion here in
the classroom where you don't

1996
01:34:00,080 --> 01:34:01,960
want to get thrown out of an
environment you want to be in.

1997
01:34:02,320 --> 01:34:05,280
Then when it comes to real, and
that's actually there's the

1998
01:34:05,280 --> 01:34:06,800
anxious generation with Jonathan
Hay.

1999
01:34:07,480 --> 01:34:09,200
Yeah, awesome book, amazing
book.

2000
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:12,200
But one of the things that he
says was low state consequences,

2001
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:13,960
right?
I'd rather deal with the

2002
01:34:13,960 --> 01:34:17,320
consequences right now in the
classroom where worse comes to

2003
01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:18,640
worse.
Right now, the worst case

2004
01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:20,600
scenario for you is that you're
not here for the rest of the

2005
01:34:20,600 --> 01:34:22,560
day.
In in the real world, the worst

2006
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:23,840
case, this scenario could be a
lot worse.

2007
01:34:23,840 --> 01:34:26,320
I'm teaching you what to do now
to avoid that in the future.

2008
01:34:26,440 --> 01:34:30,760
There's a term of that in ABA
like, you know, if you would

2009
01:34:31,280 --> 01:34:36,480
prefer something now sort of
later, but going on that, yes,

2010
01:34:36,480 --> 01:34:39,800
it's important to clarify that's
that's bringing the human, the

2011
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:43,120
human part of, you know, with an
animal, you may not.

2012
01:34:43,240 --> 01:34:44,840
Explain that of course not going
to say the gold search.

2013
01:34:45,560 --> 01:34:47,240
Why?
Why?

2014
01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:50,240
If you they spoil on a circle,
you're giving them the thing.

2015
01:34:50,840 --> 01:34:53,360
But it's very important.
The only thing I'm going to add

2016
01:34:53,360 --> 01:34:55,640
on in the classroom setting, and
this is me being, you know,

2017
01:34:55,840 --> 01:34:58,600
giving my unsolicited advice.
You got up and said that in

2018
01:34:58,600 --> 01:35:00,880
front of the classroom.
That's also maybe reinforcing

2019
01:35:00,880 --> 01:35:03,120
them by giving them attention.
But if you pull them aside and

2020
01:35:03,120 --> 01:35:06,840
you said I'm sending you out
because I need you to learn that

2021
01:35:07,280 --> 01:35:11,920
this is this is not, this is not
acceptable and we can't have it.

2022
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:13,360
Right.
And this goes back to what you

2023
01:35:13,360 --> 01:35:15,440
were saying earlier that they
could be reinforcing the fact he

2024
01:35:15,440 --> 01:35:16,760
didn't want to be in class.
So if he said.

2025
01:35:17,080 --> 01:35:18,400
And this only or he wants
attention.

2026
01:35:18,560 --> 01:35:20,520
Or he wants attention, right.
But this is the presumption that

2027
01:35:20,520 --> 01:35:22,480
he wants to be there and that
he's actually losing out on

2028
01:35:22,480 --> 01:35:24,840
something.
That he's actually losing out on

2029
01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:26,320
something that he wants to
participate in.

2030
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:27,800
Yeah, that's that's that's an
assumption.

2031
01:35:27,800 --> 01:35:30,760
Right, So that that's how often
people say like I punish my kid

2032
01:35:31,560 --> 01:35:33,480
and then either they're
threatening, not following

2033
01:35:33,480 --> 01:35:36,840
through.
They they're, they when they do

2034
01:35:36,840 --> 01:35:41,520
follow through is very
inconsistent or their punishment

2035
01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:44,720
is actually reinforcing it
because it's giving them what

2036
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:49,440
they want, whether it's added
activity or added, you know, or

2037
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:54,480
another one is if their
punishment gives them attention.

2038
01:35:55,480 --> 01:35:58,000
So now, even though the
punishment may not be what they

2039
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:00,800
want, but they're reinforcing.
It there's no such thing as bad

2040
01:36:00,920 --> 01:36:03,840
as bad press, there's no such
thing as bad attention.

2041
01:36:03,840 --> 01:36:04,920
Is that, I think, a bad
publicity?

2042
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:08,040
If it so, it's very important
how you how you.

2043
01:36:08,360 --> 01:36:10,440
Become the class clown.
It becomes exciting to you, you.

2044
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:14,400
And that's that's your role now.
Even become your identity.

2045
01:36:15,720 --> 01:36:16,800
There's a great Billy Strings
line.

2046
01:36:16,800 --> 01:36:18,680
I used to be the class clown.
Now I'm just a fool.

2047
01:36:18,680 --> 01:36:21,280
You know, I used to be, I used
to be so funny and I'm just an

2048
01:36:21,280 --> 01:36:22,840
idiot.
So these these principles are

2049
01:36:22,840 --> 01:36:24,200
applied in all these different
ways.

2050
01:36:24,200 --> 01:36:25,840
And there's a lot of, you know,
moon part.

2051
01:36:26,160 --> 01:36:29,000
There's also a book, I'm sure
you read it, Atomic Habits.

2052
01:36:29,200 --> 01:36:30,360
No.
Really.

2053
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:33,120
You're totally you.
Know why it's too cliche?

2054
01:36:33,120 --> 01:36:34,720
It's it's too out there for me
to read.

2055
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:38,400
It's too it's too pop.
And when their mom read it, I'm

2056
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:41,040
like Tupac Tupac.
I have a resistance story

2057
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:44,000
though.
I want to be honest, I didn't

2058
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:46,720
read it, but I I have a bundle
that read it and he was giving

2059
01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:48,680
me yeah, these are all
behavioral principles.

2060
01:36:48,680 --> 01:36:50,320
These are all based on behavior
analysis.

2061
01:36:50,360 --> 01:36:51,800
There's a reason why it's
effective and it works.

2062
01:36:51,880 --> 01:36:53,280
Yeah.
And then I reached out to the

2063
01:36:53,440 --> 01:36:55,200
author to do a podcast.
Oh yeah, yeah.

2064
01:36:55,200 --> 01:36:57,160
I don't think they ever got back
to me, but that's a.

2065
01:36:57,160 --> 01:36:58,200
Great.
Probably because they didn't

2066
01:36:58,200 --> 01:36:59,600
read it.
Yeah, James Claire or something.

2067
01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:09,840
But those behavioral principles
work and it's about when people

2068
01:37:09,880 --> 01:37:13,960
implement their, their the
principles, how you implement

2069
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:16,720
them is, is what they call
bedside manner, right?

2070
01:37:16,720 --> 01:37:18,360
You have two doctors
implementing the same thing.

2071
01:37:19,000 --> 01:37:21,120
And there's many different
applications of this science

2072
01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:26,440
with, with making businesses
more profitable or employees.

2073
01:37:26,920 --> 01:37:29,280
There's so many different parts
of the science.

2074
01:37:29,280 --> 01:37:32,000
That's what gets me excited.
Yeah, it's fine and it's

2075
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:33,320
nothing.
It's nothing novel because

2076
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:36,280
anyone who learns learns the
possibles is like, oh, this all

2077
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:38,400
this makes sense.
Yeah, I see it.

2078
01:37:38,560 --> 01:37:44,600
Which is one of our one of our
one of the things in in behavior

2079
01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:47,840
analysis is parsimony, which is
like the simplest answer first.

2080
01:37:47,920 --> 01:37:49,600
Yeah, of course.
So.

2081
01:37:51,000 --> 01:37:52,280
Yeah.
And a lot of these ideas, like

2082
01:37:52,320 --> 01:37:55,440
you said, like there's a
beginning of the charm where

2083
01:37:55,440 --> 01:37:57,000
it's like none of these ideas
are new.

2084
01:37:57,280 --> 01:37:58,880
These are all just things that
we need to be constantly

2085
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:01,240
reminded of because they they
tend to fall from our conscious,

2086
01:38:01,240 --> 01:38:04,240
from our conscious awareness.
But like, that's why you need to

2087
01:38:04,240 --> 01:38:05,880
work on them.
But like you're not going to be

2088
01:38:05,880 --> 01:38:08,760
surprised to hear like most of
this stuff like.

2089
01:38:08,920 --> 01:38:12,400
It's like I just hired an
employee and they're like, oh,

2090
01:38:12,400 --> 01:38:13,840
I'm not sure.
Like Twitter.

2091
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:16,240
I'm like, I told all my
employees the same thing.

2092
01:38:17,480 --> 01:38:18,800
You have to learn something
sometime.

2093
01:38:19,560 --> 01:38:21,840
So faking it doesn't help you.
Yeah.

2094
01:38:22,160 --> 01:38:24,760
And making and me expecting you
that you know it is not going to

2095
01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:26,320
help you either.
Yeah, of course you don't know

2096
01:38:26,320 --> 01:38:27,360
it.
Let's learn it.

2097
01:38:27,360 --> 01:38:29,000
Yeah, you learn it now you know
it.

2098
01:38:29,680 --> 01:38:33,200
So that's what I think also it's
important for like we have to

2099
01:38:33,200 --> 01:38:34,120
learn something to know
something.

2100
01:38:34,480 --> 01:38:37,960
So if we were never taught like
how behavior works or, or, or

2101
01:38:38,000 --> 01:38:41,240
like the parenting strategies,
there's an amazing book that

2102
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:42,960
they're parenting the strong
willed child.

2103
01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:44,840
Never heard of it.
Yeah, you did.

2104
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:46,880
Yeah.
So that is written by a bunch of

2105
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:53,720
behavior analysts, a doctor,
obviously, but they that whole

2106
01:38:53,720 --> 01:38:56,240
thing is built on the principles
of behavior and it's extremely

2107
01:38:56,240 --> 01:38:57,800
effective.
And it and it discusses

2108
01:38:57,800 --> 01:39:00,240
developing the relationship with
your child, because if you're

2109
01:39:00,240 --> 01:39:03,000
working on a on a skill with
your child, you have to have

2110
01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:06,680
that relationship before you,
you know, you start bossing them

2111
01:39:06,680 --> 01:39:07,800
around.
But it's really cool.

2112
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:09,520
And how this all plays into
addiction.

2113
01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:11,520
It's a whole nother.
Yeah.

2114
01:39:12,320 --> 01:39:15,240
So it's good stuff.
Love it.

2115
01:39:15,480 --> 01:39:17,240
Well, what do you think about
your first podcast?

2116
01:39:18,240 --> 01:39:21,080
I think, listen, I learned I got
to jump more into the this is,

2117
01:39:21,080 --> 01:39:23,320
this is great.
You really find you really find

2118
01:39:23,320 --> 01:39:24,960
you're OK.
Well, thank you.

2119
01:39:25,400 --> 01:39:28,080
Do Part 2 now that you did this,
and we'll figure out another

2120
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:30,880
time we could dive into
addiction and all this other fun

2121
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:33,240
stuff, I'm sure.
And then you got to come to my

2122
01:39:33,240 --> 01:39:34,360
classroom one time.
Oh, I'm going to.

2123
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:36,280
Be so excited.
Thank you again for having me

2124
01:39:36,280 --> 01:39:37,080
on.
I appreciate it.

2125
01:39:37,240 --> 01:39:39,120
It's good to break dice.
So happy you did this.

2126
01:39:39,240 --> 01:39:40,280
All right.
Bye, everyone.

2127
01:39:40,320 --> 01:39:41,080
Goodbye, everyone.
Bye.

2128
01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:41,360
Bye.