Psychology Series 12: Dr Kelly Flanagan / Making Maintaining Friendships & Relationships

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

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OK, Doctor Kelly, we're live.
How are you doing?

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Good.
Ephraim, thank you for having

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me, man.
It's great to be here.

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Good, good.
I am so excited.

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I'm so happy to talk to you.
I I saw something funny I think

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was in your website while I was
doing some homework for this and

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that your your wife is also
Doctor Kelly.

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My wife is also doctor Kelly.
Yes, my dad, my dad is Ashley.

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My dad's name is Ashley.
So we get mail all the time to

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misses and misses Ashley and
Leora Hirschman, and they're

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like, well, let's you know that
they're they're spammers or

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bots.
You know, pre that well, here's

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some here's some here's a deep
cut from my life as a male named

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Kelly.
I will never forget getting home

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from it's either middle school
or high school one day.

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And there's a big like welcome
package sort of box in the mail

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for me at home, and it's from
Teen magazine.

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And it says, Kelly, we know you,
so we know it's time for you to.

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And it had basically female
sanitary products for me.

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And I was like, I don't think
you know me.

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As far as you think, you.
Do so.

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Yeah.
But I met a woman named Kelly in

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Graduate School.
She wrote home to her mom, and

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she's like, I met this great
guy, but his name's Kelly.

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So of course it could never
work, but we've made it work now

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for almost 25 years.
That's beautiful.

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That's, that's, that's
inspirational.

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You know, if you could make that
work, then you could go make

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your way through anything, I'm
sure.

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So, so tell me a little bit
about so, so tell me about

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yourself, because obviously on
one hand you've got the

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psychology hat on, but you're
obviously doing a lot of

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writing, a lot of travelling and
a lot of education I would call

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it as well.
And so and I think that it's a

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great intersection to be at
because on one hand you'll get,

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you're helping people on the on
the individual level.

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And then on the other hand, you
kind of spread out these ideas

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onto a mass audience hopefully
and have that same kind of

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impact, but on a little bit more
of a broader generalized level.

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Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.

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So in 2011, I had been an
outpatient mental outpatient

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mental health therapist for
probably at that point, about

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six years, you know, I was
seeing about 30 clients a week.

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And a couple of things converged
like right at the same time I

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had this, I had this one client
who was really making incredible

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strides in his own personal
growth and how he was showing up

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to his life and relationships.
And he was an entrepreneur, so

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pretty ambitious.
And one day he's like, it is a

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shame that you only get to help
30 people every week, you know?

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And it sort of hit me and I
thought, yeah, huh, I wonder how

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I could help more people.
And right around the same time,

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Blue Cross Blue Shield in
Illinois with about 90 days

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notice, cut reimbursement rates
to their providers by some like

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15 to 30%.
And we're a young family barely

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making it.
And I didn't have, our family

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didn't have the margin in our
budget for that kind of hit.

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And it just sort of hit me like,
oh man, this insurance company

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who I depend upon completely
from my family's well-being

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doesn't really care about me.
And so how could I start to

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generate more demand for my
services so I could rely less on

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Blue Cross?
And at the time, blogging was

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big.
And I'd always had an interest

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in writing, but never really
tapped into it.

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So I thought, you know what, I'm
going to start blogging.

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I'll reach more people that way.
Increased demand for my

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services.
My 9th blog post went viral.

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It was called Marriages for
Losers.

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Nice.
Yeah.

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And we were sort of off to the
races from there.

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And can I ask real quick?
I'm sorry, just because I want

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to just elaborate.
If anybody doesn't understand,

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there are therapists that take
and don't take insurance.

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Can you explain what the
rationale is typically from the

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from the therapist perspective?
And I know because I know from

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the patient's perspective that
everyone complaints that every

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good therapist either doesn't
take insurance or is a fortune

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and like, and you know what to
do.

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And so maybe that's something
that you could, you know,

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describe or from your end at
least, or from the other side.

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That's a great question.
Was someone that no one's ever

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asked me.
Yeah.

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So they're essentially, I mean,
gosh, this is really pulling

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back the curtains.
Let's just pull it back.

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When therapists start out, they,
they start out with no clients,

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right?
They have to build the

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clientele.
Sure.

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And so most therapists right out
of Graduate School will

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immediately enroll in these, in
these insurance networks because

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those insurance networks bring
referrals.

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I'm, I'm in an insurance
network.

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When I went to my own therapy,
right, I used my insurance.

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So I found someone in my network
and kept the cost affordable for

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me because just like any medical
care, usually paying like a

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deductible and and then some
sort of copay.

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So keeps it affordable for the
clients.

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And it is a natural referral
source for for therapists.

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Yeah, exactly.
Everyone, everyone wins at some

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point that if a therapist is
good at what they do, their

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caseload gets full.
And, and, and this is like, this

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is one of the, like the, the
little secrets behind the scenes

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of the mental health industry is
I tell, I tell people, if you're

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looking for a therapist, ask for
one who's got like a three to

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six month wait list, right?
It means they're good.

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And, and if they're, if they
don't, it doesn't mean they're

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good.
It probably means they're young.

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They're still filling a caseload
and building a caseload.

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I was that guy once, right?
And, and so, but at some point

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many therapists, they can't take
on any more clients, right?

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And this is, this is one of the
really like unfortunate things

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about the system is that
reimbursement rates from third

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party payers to therapists
haven't increased in the last 20

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years since I started doing it,
right.

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So our cost of living increases
3% and most therapists, believe

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it or not, most therapists are
making way less than your local

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plumber makes per hour.
I believe that.

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And their rates aren't going up.
And, and so a therapist gets

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full and then they have to ask
the question like as the cost of

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living goes up, how am I going
to scale my revenue a little bit

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if the insurance company has
capped me?

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So they will gradually as demand
for their services increases,

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they will start to meet with
clients and they do, you know,

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sort of fee for service.
It's called basically you pay me

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cash and I, I work with you.
So that's, that's what you see

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as a, as a clinician progresses
through their career, they'll

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start to transition to fewer
insurance clients in order to

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keep up with the cost of living.
The next step, which I took in

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2015 is to open up your own
practice and start to employ

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your own therapist and to, to
obviously increase your capacity

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to provide for your family in
that way.

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And then what I did, I did that
from 20/15/2022 and then

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ultimately accepted that
managing a therapy practice is

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not my strong suit nor my
passion.

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And, and I closed that down and
I shifted into doing more

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writing, speaking online
community online coaching, those

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sorts of things.
So that's where I'm at today.

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Awesome, love it.
OK, so that's a really, I think

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that's a really important
description and just just a

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quick walkthrough because I
think that again, people and I'm

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like this too, when we could
talk about this for sure.

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There's they call this the what
I call it when you when you have

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someone walking in the street,
I'm sorry.

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And the, the pedestrian, the
pedestrian, you know, where

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every time that I'm in the car
and I'm crossing and someone's

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trying to cross the street, I
forget what it's like to be the

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pedestrian.
I'm always yelling at them.

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And then, and then like 5
minutes later, I'll be the

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pedestrian crossing the street
And there's a guy that's, you

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know, trying to get through and
I'm yelling at him, hey, I'm

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trying to walk over here.
And, and I forget completely

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what it's like to be in the
other person's shoes, even

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though I was in that situation
just a couple of minutes ago.

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And I think a lot of people
don't think about the fact that

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that, you know, therapists and,
and psychologists have to make a

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living too.
And that, you know, that a

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certain point, like you said,
especially if the insurance

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reimbursements are going to be
cut or not be raised at any

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point, there's going to be
someone's going to have to

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someone's going to have to pay
more somewhere.

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And everyone's got to live and
everyone's got to eat.

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And so I think it's a good
understanding and it's

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interesting.
Like, I think, you know, PhD

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level clinical psychologist
might like myself, Doctor Kelly,

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we, we sort of get lumped in
with medical doctors and, and

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the assumption is that perhaps
that we kind of sort of received

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the same reimbursement as
medical doctors, but there's

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never really been medical and
mental health parity anywhere in

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the world, let alone in the
United States.

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And so, you know, I, I guess I
always joke.

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I went to school for 20, two
years to get my doctorate.

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That's, that's a lot of loans.
I'm still paying them back or

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not.
And and so you accrue all this

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debt, but you, you don't receive
the reimbursement rate of a

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surgeon who's now doing surgery
right out of medical school,

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right?
You, you receive the

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reimbursement rate that is sort
of set by the insurance company

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and far lower for mental health.
So yeah, therapists and and

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psychologists are in a tricky
sort of no man's land really

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when it comes to debt and and
revenue.

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So, So yeah, a long way to say
by by 2011, I was looking for

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ways to provide for my family
differently.

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And I stumbled upon writing and
blogging and then my daughter

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and I wound up on the Today show
as a result of one of the no

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way.
Yeah.

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Yeah.
It was wild.

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I'm I'm you walk.
You walk me through that, that

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sequence of what happened?
Sure, sure.

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Yeah.
So I published Marriages for

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Losers.
And what did what what was that

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about?
Other than it probably wasn't

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for losers, right?
No.

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It, it was, it was I, I often
say it went viral by the because

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of the title alone.
But the idea was that, like, you

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know, when you're in a
relationship and you hit that

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moment right, that triggering
moment and your, your protective

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defenses kick in, you're now
both competing to win basically.

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And, and that you, what we need
to aspire to in marriage is 2

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people who are mutually,
actually competing to lose, to

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serve, to sacrifice, to
surrender, to let go of that

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protection mode and return to
connection mode.

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And and so I, I, yeah.
So I that, that, that really got

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some traction.
And then I, I wrote a letter to

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my daughter and published it on
my blog.

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And my colleagues, by the way,
at this point were really

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starting to wonder if I'd lost
my mind because as a therapist,

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you're not supposed to share
private information anywhere,

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right?
Let alone on a blog.

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Well, I wrote her a letter about
how she's inherently worthy of

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interest.
And when she's looking for a

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partner, her, you know,
hopefully her goal is to find

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someone who knows she's worthy
of interest.

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I'm getting a little emotional
because just this morning I told

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my wife, like, I am as
fascinated by you today as the

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day I met you.
It's beautiful.

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I know I get distracted.
I know I get busy, but you are

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enthralling to me.
And so that's what I told my

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daughter.
That one went viral.

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And then I wrote a second letter
to her from the makeup aisle of

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a Target story about how her,
her, her true beauty isn't in on

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the inside.
It's inherent, it's enduring,

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it's eternal.
And and to hopefully relieve

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some of the pressure as she
entered, you know, her teen

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years to make it all about her
outer beauty.

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Well, that one went really,
really viral.

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And I was sitting in that metal,
that outpatient mental health

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office.
I remember on a Thursday

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afternoon and my office phone
rang and I picked it up and it

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was the Today show, a producer
at the Today show.

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And they said, hey, we are,
we're basically planning a, a, a

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series on women's body image and
we need a male voice.

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And we just read your letter to
your daughter and we love for

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the two of you to come out to,
to 30 Rock and be on the show.

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And so the whole family went
out.

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This was in February of 2014.
It was a really wild, fun,

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surreal sort of experience.
And, and, and so we were on the

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show.
We're actually on the show 2

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days in a row and and then as a
result of that, so the owner of

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the mental health practice where
I was working happened to be

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vacationing with a prolific
author.

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And that author watched me on
the Today show that day and

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said, you know what, I'm going
to connect him to my agent.

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00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:22,840
He's really got some good
writing chops.

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00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,320
And so I connected with my
current agent who I work with to

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this day.
And my first book, Lovable was

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published in in 2017.
Nice.

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00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:42,200
And, and lovable was, as I say,
written to my kids to, to, to

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share with them the message of
their inherent worthiness.

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But as I say in the book, also
written to that little boy and

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me, you know, who needs we all
got that little one in US who's

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still waiting to hear that, that
good news.

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You know that you, you're
lovable, you're worthy, you

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belong, you matter.
So, so I think that book really

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resonated with a lot of people
because we've all got a kid in

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US, you know, waiting on a love
letter And and that book has

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become that love letter to a lot
of people.

256
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,400
Yeah, that's beautiful.
That's really, really awesome.

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Oh, man, there's so many great
places to go from here.

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First of all, thank you for, for
really for sharing the, the

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details of that, because I think
that I, I went to a wedding, I

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went to avoiding a friend of
mine and I'm Orthodox Jewish and

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I had, and he had this rabbi at
his wedding.

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And this rabbi is Yemenite
actually.

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And so there's a whole Middle
Eastern culture.

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It's very, very different.
And one of the things that they

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do, which is really beautiful is
they give you a lot of

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blessings, but like they heap
them on.

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So like, you know, you should be
happy and, and you should look

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at each other in 30 years, like
it's the first day of your life.

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And this is the moment that your
entire life is going to be

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building towards and like, and
like you and your family and

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00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:54,720
your kids and you guys should
have kids.

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And the whole crowd is like
cheering, like the whole time.

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And, and like, it's funny
because a lot of times everyone

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knows that everyone wishes
everyone all these things when

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they hear happy news like, but
but there's something else that

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there's something else in our
nature when we actually say

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those things out loud that just
shakes and resonates and and

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internalizes itself, even if we
know it already.

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To hear it again is really,
really valuable.

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So, so like when you talk about
these emotional experiences and

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the care that you have for if
your wife or your kids or

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yourself even, you know, I
think, I think that, you know,

283
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:31,520
even though it's something that
almost like quote UN quote

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doesn't need to be said, it
absolutely needs to be fed

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because reinforceable, it needs
to be reinforced, you know,

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00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,040
couldn't agree more.
I mean, my, my first, I

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originally named my blog
Untangle and the idea was that

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00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,000
just putting the words on yeah,
stuff that's going on up here.

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00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,640
I was putting it on the page
helped sort of Untangle what was

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going on up there.
My wife jokes like, man, no

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00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,840
wonder you were miserable to be
around before you started

292
00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:58,520
writing.
All that stuff was jumbled up

293
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,200
there.
I mean, I've been writing daily

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00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,560
now for, you know, 14 years.
So yes, words have power.

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00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,440
They they clarify things that
are confusing inside when

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00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:15,440
they're said aloud.
They other people, they're a

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00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,280
gift that we give to our people.
Essentially, they're a gift that

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00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,520
we give to our people when we
actually say the thing.

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00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,680
That's why I said it this
morning when we were just, we

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00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,840
were just exercising and I had
that thought of like, man, I

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00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,440
could, I'm just as enthralled by
you as the day I met you.

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00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,360
And I wish, I wish I didn't get
so distracted and send you a

303
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:38,000
different message sometimes, you
know, but I said it to her and I

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00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,040
think that means something to
her.

305
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,120
Even 2526 years later, after
dedicating my whole life to her,

306
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,360
it still feels good to hear,
right.

307
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,160
It's still, it's meaningful.
It makes a difference.

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00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:48,360
So I couldn't agree with you
more, man.

309
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,520
Words said.
And and when you talk to people

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00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,120
who are at the end of their
lives, right, and you ask them

311
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,320
what would you have done more
of?

312
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,000
One of the first things is they
would have said all the things.

313
00:16:58,200 --> 00:16:59,440
Yeah.
Just would have said all the

314
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things.
So, yeah, it's, it's wonderful

315
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,640
that in in some of our spiritual
and religious traditions, we

316
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,720
have rituals where we say the
things.

317
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,160
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and again, I, I just showed

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00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,040
my I, I, I imagine there's a
bunch of ready, but I've just

319
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,160
showed my high school students
Dead Poets Society for the first

320
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,280
time and so good.
And what I, and one of the

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00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,680
things I had to tell them was
that there's such a thing, such

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00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,440
a genre called dramas.
And there's such a thing where I

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00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,600
was like, and there's something
I was like, and I want you to,

324
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,640
to, to watch this and watch for
this.

325
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:39,000
I was like, a lot of times
actors and actors will say what

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00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,000
they have to say without saying
anything.

327
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,640
And you have to look at their
face and read it and you have to

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00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,400
be able to see that they want to
say something and they're

329
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,600
holding themselves back.
And I was like, in those moments

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00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,760
are moments that like the
audience can almost always

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00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,000
relate to and connect to because
we've all had those times where

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00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,440
we wish we'd said, you know,
what we needed to say or what we

333
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,960
wanted to say so badly.
And we all recognize the weight

334
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,360
and the inks that, that, that,
that, that we carry when we miss

335
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:11,560
those opportunities.
And there are times, there are

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00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,880
even times where I'll, you know,
I'll be going to, we're

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00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,240
sleeping.
It's like 1:00 in the morning.

338
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,080
I roll over and my wife says,
oh, you're up.

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00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:19,720
And like, and if I think to
myself, yeah.

340
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,000
And like, I think to myself,
like, I should say, I love you.

341
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:23,560
I'm just so tired.
I'm like, you know, I just like,

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00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,600
like, and like a moment and
like, you freeze and it, it just

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00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,240
lasts 1/2 a second.
But it, you know, and it really,

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00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,240
really sits with you.
One of the one of the hacks that

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00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,920
I recommend to couples is what
what they discover when they

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00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,840
really start to pay attention to
that half of a second is that

347
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,040
they have thoughts of gratitude
all the time for their people.

348
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,320
They have thoughts of affection.
They have thoughts of thoughts

349
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,800
of appreciation, but it passes
in half of a second.

350
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,040
And then you're back to, you
know, I don't know, whatever

351
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,600
your notification on your cell
phone, just pay for, right?

352
00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:00,800
And I say you don't have to come
up with more gratitude or

353
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,480
appreciation.
Just notice it when it shows up

354
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,440
and always say it, right?
Yeah.

355
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,200
Like to to the one of the
classic examples for me is I

356
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,160
remember one night getting home
like, you know, garbage night,

357
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,080
right?
And it's like I'm exhausted

358
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:15,800
after a long day.
I don't want to do the get the

359
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,720
garbage out of the curb.
And I pull in and my wife's

360
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,280
already got the garbage out to
the curb.

361
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,160
Yeah, chances are like I felt
enormous gratitude in that

362
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:24,480
moment.
But chances are, by the time I

363
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:29,320
pull in the driveway, parked the
car, I'm not gonna remember to

364
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,520
say thank you.
Greets you as soon as you walk

365
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,960
into the house.
You know, it's O it's over.

366
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,320
So in that moment where you feel
the gratitude and the affection

367
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,320
and the tenderness, say it.
Yeah.

368
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:44,000
If you can't bring yourself to
say it, pause even longer and

369
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,960
ask yourself why.
Yeah.

370
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:48,840
Why do you think that would be
for some people?

371
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,960
Like, what is some common
reservations that people have

372
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,160
when it comes to?
Is it a fear of vulnerability?

373
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,960
Is it a fear of rejection a lot
or even saying something that

374
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,360
you feel you haven't said
before?

375
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:04,560
It's almost unfamiliar waters.
Yeah, that's a great question.

376
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,120
So a little bit of backs.
I'm going to answer that

377
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:12,080
question was just a little bit
of back story, which is that

378
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,480
five years ago, this past New
Year's Eve, I was in bad shape.

379
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,720
I had, you know.
About five years previous to

380
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,000
that, four years previous to
that, I'd published Lovable.

381
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:31,440
It's a book about how embracing
our sense of worthiness and

382
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,960
belonging.
But I was having the trouble

383
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,760
living into the truth of that
right?

384
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,920
Like I would hit these
triggering moments in my life

385
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,440
with my wife, with my kids and
everywhere, and I would not live

386
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:45,960
as if I could trust my
worthiness.

387
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,280
And 2020 had been a really tough
year.

388
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,320
I, in the midst of some
triggering moments, ended up

389
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,120
blowing up my business
partnership with my best friend

390
00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:58,640
and the best friendship.
COVID hit.

391
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,480
We were all, you know, schooling
from home and kids were

392
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,440
becoming, I call them zombies,
call them becoming zombies.

393
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,760
And I was getting triggered left
and right.

394
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,320
And and there was a day Sunday
afternoon in the middle of that

395
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,680
where my wife had she'd
convinced she'd finally like

396
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,800
she'd had the leverage finally
to convince me to put in an

397
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,520
above ground pool.
She's like all the pools are

398
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,640
closing for the summer.
We need that above ground pool

399
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,280
finally.
All right, So I get the pool

400
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,600
installed and on a Sunday
morning she goes out to fill up

401
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,360
the pool and she hangs a hose
over the side, a garden hose and

402
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,640
puts a rock on top of it to
anchor it there.

403
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,280
But the rock, the rock wasn't
heavy enough.

404
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,600
And I go out like 4 hours later
and the pool is bone dry.

405
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,440
But our backyard is a lake,
right?

406
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:45,200
And I'm like, I got so triggered
and so angry that I'm like, man,

407
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,640
I'm going to say and do some
things here that I need to not

408
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,400
say and do.
So what do I do?

409
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,440
Well, I was like, OK, I'm just
going to blow off all this steam

410
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,440
on a bike ride.
So I hop on my bike, angry,

411
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,960
frustrated.
I even remember pulling out of

412
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,840
our subdivision going, you're
not in the right mind to be on a

413
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,480
bike.
But I just ignored it.

414
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,200
Literally about a minute and a
half later, not paying

415
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,640
attention, I almost hit a car.
I pumped my brakes.

416
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,600
I go over the handlebars and I
break my left collarbone in two

417
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:18,480
places on the right.
Well, this thing, it doesn't, it

418
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,840
doesn't heal properly.
You know, they're called fibrous

419
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,680
tissue, non union fractures. 2
breaks in my left collarbone

420
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,120
that are basically like hinges
now.

421
00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:31,120
So it was this really long and
painful recovery because it

422
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:33,360
didn't heal very well.
So I get to New Year's Eve going

423
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:38,040
into 2021 and I'm out of shape
physically and I'm looking for

424
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,920
fitness resolutions.
And I come across this

425
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,400
incredible quote by a guy named
Michael Singer.

426
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,400
And the quote is, don't let
anything in life be important

427
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,200
enough that you're willing to
close your heart over it.

428
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,640
And I thought, you know what?
Most of the hardship that I've

429
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,160
run into this year, most of the
suffering isn't because of

430
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,280
what's happening around me.
It's because of what's happening

431
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,360
within me.
It's my heart closing to it, my

432
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:03,440
resistance to it, my reaction to
it.

433
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:06,800
And I said, I'm going to make a
New Year's resolution.

434
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,520
And it's not going to be a
fitness resolution.

435
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,720
It's going to be this moment to
moment.

436
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,800
I will notice my heart closing
and try to open it back up.

437
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,280
That was my resolution going
into 2021, and I quickly

438
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,360
discovered how difficult that
was.

439
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:31,280
Now, five years later, I
basically have developed a

440
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,560
process for helping people to
keep their hearts open in any

441
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,320
moment, especially the key
moments.

442
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:38,760
And I've written a book about
it.

443
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,840
But to answer your specific
question, why is it so hard to

444
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,840
express that gratitude and that
appreciation, you know, in that

445
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,120
moment?
It's because to do that, you

446
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:51,400
have to open your heart up,
right?

447
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,960
For for that kind of tenderness
to come out, your heart has to

448
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,800
be open.
But a heart that is open is

449
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,520
momentarily unprotected, right?
So that's what vulnerability is.

450
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,640
Vulnerability is opening my
heart to express affection with

451
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,240
no guarantee of safety about
what comes back in, right.

452
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,040
And so, yeah, it's very, very,
very vulnerable.

453
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,360
I have a spiritual director
myself.

454
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,480
And I was telling him that as
I'm, as I, as I progress on this

455
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,640
open hearted journey, I'm
starting to realize how

456
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,400
vulnerable Joy is.
And he's like, yeah, he said,

457
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,320
yeah, Kelly, most people think
anxiety is the most vulnerable

458
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,320
emotion.
A few people think, you know,

459
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,880
realize sadness is more
vulnerable than anxiety.

460
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,560
Very few people realize joy is
the most vulnerable emotion of

461
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,680
all because when you are feeling
joy, your heart is wide open and

462
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,480
anything can come in and
devastate you at that point,

463
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:54,320
right.
And so, so increasingly my

464
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,920
practice of moment to moment,
I'm you know, I will, I will try

465
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,360
to add most of my heart closing
and try to open it back up.

466
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:07,280
Is, is the, the capacity, the
promise of getting to live life

467
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,920
joyfully while learning how to
handle the disappointments when

468
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,320
they happen and staying open
hearted through the

469
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,200
disappointments and through the
hurtful things.

470
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,760
And it's just a really powerful
practice and, and so, but all of

471
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,920
that to say, yes, it is really
hard to say, boy, I'm really

472
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,200
thankful you took the the trash
cans out because you've opened

473
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,640
your heart.
And now if she says, well, I

474
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,920
wish you would have done me a
favor, but, you know, picking,

475
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,080
picking up the, the kitchen
after you ate this morning, it's

476
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,080
like, oh, I, I didn't have my
protections up, you know, and

477
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,920
now your heart wants to close
really hard to keep you safe.

478
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,880
And now you got to figure out
how to stay open to that as

479
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,200
well.
So it's a it's a vulnerable

480
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,560
moment, Right, Right.
Yeah.

481
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:53,640
Makes sense.
I, I try to teach my students

482
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,080
about some of these ideas.
And you know, we find literary

483
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,200
themes that that that endorse
them and kind of back them up.

484
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,800
And one thing that I think I
want to talk to you about a

485
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,080
bunch of things, including your
newest book, but there's a

486
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,120
couple of things along the way.
And I'm sure that you could

487
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:14,560
actually, I'm sure connect them
to the book.

488
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,000
But number one is, and you and I
talked about this on the phone

489
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,800
while we were talking, people
today are more isolated, I feel,

490
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,720
than they've been in a very long
time.

491
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:29,320
And yeah, you see these videos
even for example, on social

492
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,040
media of like what a high school
gym looked like or high school

493
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,560
hallways looked like in the 90s
and then what a high school

494
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:39,640
hallway looks like now.
And we're isolated.

495
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,920
We grew up.
We're growing up without a lot

496
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,720
of the face to face social
interactions that I think are

497
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,640
required in order to really
learn and to really understand

498
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,520
how to navigate the nuances and
complexities of relationships.

499
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,120
And we learned that starting a
young age with, you know, and

500
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,840
like I'm dealing with this with
my three-year old son now, whom

501
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,360
he's just learning how to speak
back to me.

502
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:06,720
So I'm like, like, don't hurt
mommy.

503
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,200
And then he looks at me and goes
don't hurt.

504
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:08,480
True.
Why?

505
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,960
I'm like, I'm not going to hurt
you, dude.

506
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,040
But like, you know, like he like
he's learning how to how to how

507
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,760
to read, how to read how to,
he's learning a whole new

508
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,560
library of potential responses.
That's really important.

509
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:23,920
And I think that we're losing
that.

510
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,240
So a lot of times people, aside
from learning how to maintain a

511
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,400
healthy relationship, people
don't even know how to how to

512
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,400
begin them, how to start having
them and how to how to meet

513
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,200
people and stuff like that.
So I'm wondering if you can kind

514
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,880
of maybe dive in at least based
on your experiences into what

515
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,920
you know, what advice you kind
of give people to get started

516
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,160
with friendships, relationships,
anything.

517
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:51,400
Yeah, absolutely.
A year ago, maybe this week, I

518
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,960
was inducted into my high school
athletic Hall of Fame for a

519
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,800
couple pretty good years on the
golf team back in the in the

520
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,720
night, back in the 1900s, as my
kids like to say.

521
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,760
And I was asked to to say a few
words.

522
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,320
And what I found myself saying
is like, you know, when when

523
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,440
parents send a kid to high
school, they're, they're hoping

524
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,040
for some basics, you know, get
some decent grades, don't drink

525
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,760
and drive, don't get pregnant,
you know, find some good

526
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:23,960
friends.
That kind of the yardstick's

527
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,600
pretty low.
Yeah, it is.

528
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,600
It really is.
Like, just don't devastate

529
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,520
things here, right?
For what I said was, though, for

530
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,280
a high schooler entering that
first day of high school,

531
00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:37,800
there's literally just one
thought beating like a drum beat

532
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,800
in their head, which is where
will I belong?

533
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,120
Where will I belong?
Where will I belong?

534
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,680
Right.
And, and, and why the reason I

535
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,880
said that is that, you know,
athletic teams, for instance,

536
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,320
provide this sort of instant
sense of belonging.

537
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,600
Theoretically the, the choir
provides a sense of belonging.

538
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,200
So those are some shortcuts.
But every, every young person

539
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,400
who's, you know, in those
teenage years and entering high

540
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,240
school, that is their core
project.

541
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,800
They don't care so much about
like parents care about grades.

542
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,960
I care about finding somebody
that I belong to right as a kid.

543
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:19,520
And, and the reality is that I
think our capacity to find

544
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:26,360
belonging is directly correlated
to our ability to sit in the

545
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,440
discomfort between belongings,
right?

546
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:36,000
Like that uncertain space where
I don't know if I belong.

547
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,360
Am I willing to endure the
fundamental discomfort of being

548
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,480
in that space?
And if I am, that will allow me

549
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,080
to stay out there in a world, in
the world in a way and show up

550
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,520
to the world in a way that
allows me to start to make those

551
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,560
connections.
And we can all sort of relate

552
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,960
you, most of us can have at
least one example of that.

553
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,640
You know, it's that that first
day of kindergarten where

554
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,400
somebody comes over, you know,
to you on the swing and says,

555
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,920
hey, do you want to play catch?
You're like, oh, I found just

556
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:09,560
one person, right, to belong to.
And, and, and the tricky thing

557
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,880
is as a young person, like when
we back in the 1900s, right, we

558
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,800
knew, I mean, it is a
fundamental human imperative

559
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,280
baked into our DNA to go find
belonging.

560
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,640
And if we wanted to go find
belonging, we were, for the most

561
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,440
part, going to have to endure
the discomfort.

562
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,880
We don't have to show up in the
world, right, in the analog

563
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,000
world, not in the digital world.
And we were going to have to go

564
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,000
through that.
And in doing that, you develop

565
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,320
the capacity to be in the yak so
you can get to the good stuff,

566
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:41,160
right?
Young people these days have an

567
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:46,920
alternative that feels in many
ways a lot easier at first.

568
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,880
It is.
It's a lot easier at first.

569
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,080
The the choices are endless
online.

570
00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:02,440
The interactions are you can
select for interactions that you

571
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,160
want to have that make you feel
good.

572
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,400
You don't have to stay in the
ones that don't make you feel

573
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,160
great right away.
And so you don't really

574
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,840
cultivate that muscle of, of
learning how to stay in the

575
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,120
uncertainty of of not belonging
yet.

576
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,360
The problem is, and there's that
we now have now 10 years ago, we

577
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,000
didn't have this, but we now
have data that shows that none

578
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,000
of that online stuff feels like
real, real, real belonging,

579
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,320
despite what Mark Zuckerberg
says, despite, despite what they

580
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,280
will try to sell you.
And that's why, like, it's it's

581
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,800
I have a friend who says you can
never get enough of what?

582
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,760
Of what?
Almost works, Right.

583
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,160
Yeah.
That is such a great line.

584
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:43,680
Right.
Like, yeah.

585
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,880
Wow.
You think, well, if I get 100

586
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,360
hearts on this Instagram post,
then I will feel like I belong.

587
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,360
And you probably do for about a
minute.

588
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,880
And then.
And then you're wondering, why

589
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,760
did Susie die?
You know, like, it doesn't.

590
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:00,840
Yeah, It doesn't.
Yeah.

591
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,800
Never gets there, never get
there.

592
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,640
I, I, I, I'm sorry, I, I, I grew
up.

593
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,080
This just resonates so strongly
with me because I was, I grew up

594
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,400
with one as one of the first
generations of.

595
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,920
So I was born in 95, right?
So I got my, I got my Facebook

596
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,040
account when I was going into, I
think 10th grade or 11th grade.

597
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,960
And I have such visceral
memories and such vivid memories

598
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:34,360
of days of emotional roller
coasters because of a new

599
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,400
profile picture that I posted.
And I'm waiting to see the

600
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:42,160
collection of likes and comments
and who liked and and who didn't

601
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,560
like and going through and
checking compulsively, you know,

602
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,600
and and and I and there and
there were a couple of moments

603
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,800
of real breakdowns, even though
it's and it's crazy because I

604
00:32:54,800 --> 00:33:00,640
did have a very otherwise
healthy connected, you know,

605
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,040
like really in all, in all other
ways in excellent life.

606
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,840
And it just shows how powerful
this this, this experience is.

607
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,760
Absolutely.
I mean, imagine if you got a new

608
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,280
haircut, right?
I mean, I can't anymore.

609
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,720
It's those days are passing.
It actually had a really thick

610
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,320
out of hair.
Imagine you got a.

611
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,040
New haircut and you walked into
the high school hallway for the

612
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:23,760
first time.
And as you walked down the high

613
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,600
the hallway, it was just you're
Bing as people looked at you.

614
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,920
Yeah, You're like, oh, my gosh,
this.

615
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,280
Yeah, this is amazing.
People really like my haircut.

616
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:39,160
But then you get like Sally, who
you really were hoping likes

617
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,200
your haircut, she just sort of
looks at you and looks away and

618
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,400
ignores you completely.
You know, you're like, on this

619
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,440
emotional roller coaster.
And none of it's relational.

620
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,520
You go back, you go back to the
1900s archaic time and you walk

621
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,560
into the hallway with a new
haircut and you just have to

622
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,880
exist in not really knowing how
people are reacting or how

623
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:04,760
they're thinking about it.
You have to learn how to go

624
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,159
deeper with a few people so you
can actually get reactions that

625
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:13,520
you trust rather than sort of
instantaneous transient sort of

626
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,800
right, right.
You know, like impressions, I

627
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,679
guess.
And and so it's an entirely

628
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:24,239
different emotional and
relational skill set that you're

629
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,040
learning with your new haircut
than with a new profile picture,

630
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:30,840
right?
And yeah, we're just not getting

631
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,639
many reps at it anymore.
So in a practical sense, right,

632
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:41,040
You got an average 2122 year old
graduating college and she moves

633
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,239
to this girl.
This girl moves to a new city,

634
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:48,800
NY, Idaho, Chicago, whatever it
is to for for a new job and no

635
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,480
idea how to find new people.
Now in today's world, especially

636
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,520
A, you have the option of
potentially working remote and

637
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,120
being in your apartment anyway
and basically just being

638
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,920
isolated unless you want to go
for a walk, in which case you're

639
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,880
still probably not communicating
with people with your headphones

640
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:09,800
and your and your phone.
B, you're in a new place, right?

641
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,760
Presumably.
And how you're going to meet

642
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,920
people.
And, and, and I can't imagine,

643
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,120
you know, and one of the things,
and I've talked about this

644
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,720
before a little bit while, like
in the while it was happening,

645
00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:23,800
but unfortunately with all,
there were a couple of terrible

646
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,160
shootings that happened this
year, school shootings and mass

647
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,200
shootings that were just
absolute mental health

648
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:33,160
catastrophes.
And you read these letters that

649
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,360
the shooters leave behind and
you're like, I can't imagine

650
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,360
what you must have been living
like in that head for how many

651
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,520
years until until it culminates
in something like this.

652
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,720
And you just can't help but
wonder, what if these people

653
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:52,320
learned how to sit in a coffee
shop and say hello to someone

654
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,080
that was sitting next to them
and then talk to someone?

655
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,320
Or how, how to go to a brewery
and to grab and like grab a

656
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,000
beer, grab a Guinness with
someone and just be like, and

657
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,880
like you sit at the I've done
this so many times where I go by

658
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,840
myself to a brewery or a pub or
a cigar shop and I'm feeling

659
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,000
alone.
I feel isolated.

660
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,080
I'm feeling by myself and I'm in
a new place.

661
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,680
I've done this.
I've started over in Seattle and

662
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,200
college.
I've started at different high

663
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,040
schools and camps and I moved to
Florida without knowing anyone.

664
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,440
And I all I do is I pop down and
I have a beer and I wait for

665
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,600
someone that's sitting that's
sit next to me and I just say,

666
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:24,920
what's going on?
What are you drinking?

667
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,200
You know, how's it going?
How are you today?

668
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,560
And sometimes it works and
sometimes it doesn't.

669
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,400
But I've made great friends like
that throughout the years.

670
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,680
I've made awesome communities.
And, and then like what you've

671
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:39,640
said, a four to find that
confidence in myself that hey, I

672
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,720
can go anywhere now.
And I could, and I could go to

673
00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:44,800
Louisiana and I could go to
Mexico and I could go to Texas

674
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,960
and I can, I could just pop down
and I'll find and, you know, and

675
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,880
if, if one spot isn't my crowd,
I'll go to another spot until I

676
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,040
find my crowd.
You know, it's a yeah, you've

677
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,120
you've developed the, the trust
and the confidence that I can, I

678
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,240
can sort of find home wherever I
wherever I go.

679
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,400
Yeah, and, and and it it's so
hard to believe that that's

680
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,920
true, but it is true.
Like there is, there is home

681
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,240
waiting for you wherever,
wherever you go, if you're

682
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:12,320
willing to fully show up and
find it, you know, in lovable in

683
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,240
the belonging section.
I say we don't build belonging.

684
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,920
We find it.
We we have the courage to fully

685
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,480
show up authentically as who we
are.

686
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,440
And then we look around and see
who's like, oh, I celebrate

687
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,720
that.
I'm with you, you know, but so

688
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:28,200
often we show up so fortified,
as, you know, a word you've

689
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,640
used.
We show up so hidden and

690
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,480
protected that it's almost
impossible for us to find our

691
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,720
people because who, who could
possibly know us, right?

692
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,440
And so to have that courage to
show up authentically and just

693
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,840
trust that I'll find some home
here somewhere, you know, is

694
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,480
again, there's there's a space
of uncertainty and self doubt

695
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,800
that you have to navigate to to
get to that point.

696
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,600
And it's it's going to be really
hard, hard to get there.

697
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,080
Yeah, I was talking, I, I have a
friend of mine and I don't want

698
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,880
to give a lot of detail in case
anyone knows him.

699
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,240
So, you know, but I had a friend
that was having a lot of what

700
00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:12,600
years on and off with the girl
and, and both of them, I knew

701
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,520
both of them and I liked both of
them a lot.

702
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,000
I really, really did.
And they were both obviously not

703
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,800
very good for one another.
And we've all had that friend.

704
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,720
I know, I know.
And this felt this feels real.

705
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:29,160
This felt really like 1 like a
real life, like what do you call

706
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,000
it a sitcom?
You know, it just it didn't, it

707
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:36,800
felt too, too crazy to be true.
But everyone has those and one

708
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,720
and you know, and they were in
one of their fight breakups,

709
00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:41,880
whatever you want to call it.
And I was talking to both and

710
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,920
both them said the same thing to
me, which was because we just

711
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,080
hung out like a day earlier and
they told me that they'd broken

712
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,040
up again.
And they both said, I know that

713
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:52,960
there's something better out
there.

714
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,520
I just don't know how to be with
by by myself long enough to be

715
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,520
able to get there.
That's what that's the when I

716
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,560
said the phrase we have to learn
how to exist between belongings.

717
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,360
That means we people have to
learn how to be comfortable.

718
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,560
That's it with themselves.
Yes, being alone and, and, and

719
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,200
it's and we're this is daunting
stuff like, you know, to

720
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,200
acknowledge how challenging that
is for a human being.

721
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,920
Loneliness is one of the most
painful experiences.

722
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,960
There was a time in our lives
when we were very young when

723
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,720
loneliness was an existential
threat.

724
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:32,680
Like if we're alone where, you
know, humans are odd mammals,

725
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,200
we're we're dependent upon other
creatures for 1820 years for our

726
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,600
survival.
And so there's years where being

727
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,480
feeling lonely was an
existential threat.

728
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:43,520
Yeah.
But at any point in life,

729
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,240
feeling lonely is really
painful.

730
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:48,360
And so to learn how to be in
that lonely feeling between

731
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,680
belongings and.
And this is where I think you

732
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:59,000
see, if I'm feeling lonely, I go
to the the device and the online

733
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,200
sort of interactions.
You want a mummy?

734
00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:02,920
It's a Band-Aid.
Yeah.

735
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,880
It takes it away like for for
for a moment.

736
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,640
But you never get to learn how
to endure the loneliness so that

737
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,360
you can make an actual
transition between belongings,

738
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,080
to your point.
So yeah, I think that's really

739
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,760
hard.
Now, one thing I would say is to

740
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,760
your point, like 22 year old
moves to a new city, a lot of

741
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,840
our natural sort of habitats for
connecting have been taken away.

742
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,600
You're probably going to find
people through your online

743
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,680
platforms and your device.
But think of them, think of that

744
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,760
as a doorway, not a destination,
right?

745
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,160
It's not a destination, it's the
doorway.

746
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,040
You met somebody.
Now when you get together with

747
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,120
them, put your phones in your
pockets, be in the room with

748
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,000
them, not in the doorway.
There will be the temptation

749
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,080
that when you get together with
these people now and you start

750
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,720
to feel a little bit of that,
like, I'm not sure if this is

751
00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:58,880
right.
I'm not sure if I'm belonging.

752
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,880
You're going to want to get your
device out and get back in a

753
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,320
doorway and start to look for a
different door.

754
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,000
You know, you know, just stay
here.

755
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,000
Endure that.
If it doesn't go well, chalk it

756
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,480
up to a repetition at learning
how to be present to your

757
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,960
discomfort.
And that will strengthen you for

758
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,280
your next your next opportunity.
But yeah, use the devices as

759
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,080
doorways, just not destinations.
Yeah, that's, that's a great

760
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,840
advice.
I, what do you, what would you

761
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,240
tell someone or what advice
would you give someone to learn

762
00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:33,200
how to tolerate or to or the
most productive way to be alone

763
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,600
or to be lonely?
Meaning, for example, I'm just

764
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,200
to clarify because you know, I,
I, I definitely I, I, I think

765
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,680
loneliness is the feeling of not
being able to have someone

766
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,840
relate to what you're sharing or
what you're feeling or what

767
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,720
you're experiencing.
You know, it's not necessarily

768
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,280
about being with someone.
That's why being lonely in a

769
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,920
full room.
It's great, but it's so it's, it

770
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,400
hits so hard because it is true.
If you feel like you have no,

771
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,560
like no one there relates to
anything about you.

772
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,320
That's right, you're finished,
you know, So what do you, how do

773
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,480
you get comfortable with
yourself and what would you

774
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:07,880
recommend for people to try
doing?

775
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,120
Oh man, such a good question.
I mean, I would start with

776
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:18,720
saying that for me, having my
work, my work increasingly is

777
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:21,440
about helping people to be
present to their sense of

778
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,360
loneliness so they don't have to
escape it into other things.

779
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,560
And in talking to hundreds,
maybe thousands of people about

780
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,400
this, I would say that the
loneliness has three pillars.

781
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,960
Feeling unseen, misunderstood
and unsupported.

782
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:44,160
OK, so like if you feel like
someone truly sees you, like

783
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,360
they're actually paying
attention, they're interested,

784
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,040
and then you feel like they
really get you, they understand

785
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,640
you, and then they want to
actively be a support to to who

786
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,360
you are.
You feel very much unlonely like

787
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,720
if all three of those check
boxes are checked, right?

788
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,160
But if any of them remains
unchecked, you're going, you're

789
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,680
going to feel a sense of
loneliness.

790
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:14,320
And the, the first thing we do,
this is the irony of it when we

791
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,640
feel lonely is we shift into
protection mode instead of

792
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,960
connection mode, right?
Which in the moment feels a

793
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,520
little safer, right?
We start to, we feel lonely, so

794
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,480
we start to hide who we really
are, or we start to get

795
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,680
aggressive, or we start to try
to manipulate or control the

796
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,840
situation to feel better.
But you're in protection mode

797
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,360
now and that feels momentarily
better in the long run, it

798
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,200
guarantees you'll end up more
lonely, right?

799
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,320
So the challenge is to befriend
one's loneliness so that you can

800
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,360
stay in connect, connection mode
even when you're feeling lonely

801
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:52,680
as an exquisitely difficult
thing to do.

802
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,520
But as we develop the capacity
to do that, it's actually the

803
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,320
doorway out of our loneliness
because we, we've, we've stayed

804
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,240
in connection mode, we've kept
our hearts open.

805
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,440
We've left ourselves available
to connection when it presents

806
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:05,960
itself.
Yeah.

807
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,320
And you know, it's and this was
probably a great transition into

808
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,920
the whole relationship.
Maintenance and and preventative

809
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,280
maintenance, you call it.
But but it's the medical

810
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,280
equipment salesman and me coming
out.

811
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:26,680
But, but I, I've, you know, I
have a lot of friends and OK,

812
00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:28,760
this also comes from the
experience of being in the

813
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,880
Orthodox Jewish world where
there is a lot of pressure to

814
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,680
get married at a relatively
young age, which I actually

815
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,440
think is probably a good thing
for the most part, obviously,

816
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,880
with exceptions.
My, that's my take.

817
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,440
But one thing that I have
noticed for a lot of people

818
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,520
going as they grow up and we
know that we're living in a

819
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,680
society where adolescence is
constantly being stretched a

820
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,720
little further and a little
further feels year by year.

821
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,120
One thing that I've noticed is
that I have friends that look

822
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,760
for relationships as A, to try
to resolve their loneliness.

823
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,600
And they think that by getting
married or they think by being,

824
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,760
you know, by moving in with
someone that now they're not

825
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,600
going to be lonely anymore.
And, and I, I too had, you know,

826
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,440
I too used to have these
thoughts, these thoughts until I

827
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,760
was in a long term relationship
in college and, and I, and I'd

828
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,960
still experienced bouts of
loneliness and I'll call my mom

829
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:22,240
and be like, what the heck is
going on?

830
00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:25,200
I'm with my girlfriend all day
and, and I, and I still feel

831
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,680
like this and like, you know, I
have no idea what's happening.

832
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,880
So and, and then and she said,
you know, and so we know that

833
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,720
being in a relationship does not
necessarily mean that you are

834
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,160
doing the connecting and doing
the opening up and the sharing.

835
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:40,920
Like you said that we needed
that we need to do.

836
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:42,880
So what maybe you could
elaborate a little bit on this?

837
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,720
Man, that's a fantastic
observation.

838
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,080
I will tell the couples that I
work with that the number one

839
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:56,520
reason to get married is because
and and you may not even have

840
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,160
known what to call it at the
point where you met your spouse,

841
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,080
but you were already wrestling
with that human experience of

842
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,840
loneliness in your life and
being with when you were with

843
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,080
them, that loneliness seemed to
evaporate.

844
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,080
Like it just seemed to be fixed,
right.

845
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,880
Whatever that thing on in there
was that you didn't know what to

846
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,760
call it, it was loneliness and
it went away.

847
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,920
So you're like, let's do life
together.

848
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,480
I never have to experience that
thing again.

849
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,440
You made me feel great.
Let's do it.

850
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,840
But the loneliness didn't
disappear.

851
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,320
It just sort of descended, you
know, a little deeper.

852
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,040
And so it eventually reemerges
in the relationship.

853
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:34,920
And there's factors that cause
it to reemerge.

854
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,600
Some, some people we marry are
not as good at being connected

855
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,680
children.
How about this?

856
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,840
Turns out when we had three kids
and my wife started to give all

857
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,520
of her wonderful attention to
them, or a lot of it, I started

858
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,280
to feel more lonely again,
right, because it was still in

859
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,520
there ready to be experienced.
And so you're, you're just

860
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,800
nailing it that what happens
then is when our loneliness

861
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,280
resurfaces in the relationship,
we immediately begin to blame

862
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,760
our partner for causing it.
That's the wild thing for

863
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,960
causing it.
You're making me lonely.

864
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,560
When in fact, for maybe the last
3-4 or five, I don't know, 10

865
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,840
years, they were actually easing
your loneliness and then they're

866
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,520
just not easing it as well right
now.

867
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:16,840
So how can you take ownership
for your experience of

868
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,160
loneliness, that it predated
your partner and that it is now

869
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,720
your experience to learn how to
be with, not theirs to absolve

870
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:27,800
you of right.
And, and so one of the ways that

871
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,600
I, I often say this to couples
is a lot of times what we do is

872
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,840
we hold out our loneliness to
our partner.

873
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,280
Like, please take this away from
me.

874
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,400
And what we need to do is hold
up our loneliness to our partner

875
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,040
and just say, Hey, I just want
you to know about my loneliness.

876
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,280
As I'm getting to know it better
and learning to be with it, I

877
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,040
want you to know about it too.
When two partners can say, yeah,

878
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,920
we love each other, we know
we're going to be together

879
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,640
forever.
We're creating an amazing family

880
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,320
and yet we're still both a
little lonely.

881
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,280
It's like, oh, there you go now,
now you're in your humanity

882
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,000
right now you're not asking the
other person to take this part

883
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,760
of your humanity away.
You're learning to actually.

884
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,280
And this is the irony when you,
when you can say I'm lonely and

885
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,000
the person's like me too.
Now you actually feel a little

886
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,200
more connected because you've
been open hearted and vulnerable

887
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,480
about your loneliness, right?
So the loneliness, the solution

888
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,120
to the loneliness is not to have
it taken away, but to be

889
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,640
courageous enough to share it.
Yes, they're sharing a drink.

890
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,480
They call loneliness.
But it's better than drinking

891
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,760
alone.
Yay, there you go.

892
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,720
And the reason why I would even
say such a cheesy line is

893
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:36,920
because I know that most people
that are below the age of 30

894
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,320
probably don't know that, don't
know those lyrics.

895
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,520
But that's if you have not
heard, if you do not know those

896
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,520
lyrics, don't stop listening
now.

897
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,520
But when this episode is over,
immediately go search Piano Man

898
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,600
by Billy Joel.
Yeah, he's got some.

899
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,960
He's got some incredibly
emotionally.

900
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,320
I do, you know, Yeah.
I mean, I don't know if you're a

901
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,120
huge Billy Joel fan.
I, I, I was growing up.

902
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,920
I still am.
I've been to probably over a

903
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,240
dozen of his shows in the garden
because I grew up in in Rockland

904
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:11,720
and growing up I went and then
when I was single, living in the

905
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:15,920
city, it would be my date
barometer as to like what the

906
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:17,600
girl would be like.
I'd take her to a Billie Joel

907
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,520
concert to test out what you
know, what kind of time she

908
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,520
would have and see whether it's
the best litmus test ever

909
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:25,200
because it's a win for you
either way.

910
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,080
Exactly.
If it's a bad day, had a great

911
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,120
concert and if it's a great day
and it's a double grade day,

912
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,000
summer Highland Falls was one of
my it was one of my favorite

913
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,920
high school songs and it was it
capture.

914
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,520
He does such a good job in
capturing the human experience

915
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:47,240
of loneliness and manic, you
know, ups and downs and, and I

916
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:53,440
think that, and I think it's the
other thing that I man, we look

917
00:49:53,440 --> 00:50:00,680
for, we look for answers instead
instead of realizing that life's

918
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,240
a project, you know, like we're
almost like looking for like a

919
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:06,840
state, like we're looking to
reach a state of like, OK,

920
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:08,040
when's everything going to be
done?

921
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,680
And then you're like, I don't
think it's ever going to be

922
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:12,680
done.
So the question really isn't

923
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,640
when am I done Right now?
It's, you know, what am I doing

924
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,360
to I, I, I like to think of
things more like a sculpture

925
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,800
where you kind of chip away a
day at a time and then you start

926
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,400
to see the picture that you're
coming to.

927
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:28,320
And I think that we need some of
more, some more of that long

928
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,720
term patience with ourselves and
with our spouses and with our

929
00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:36,760
families to say, I'm pissed off
at as all hell at you right now.

930
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,040
And like at this moment, I can't
stand you.

931
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,720
But this is just this is just a
sentence and a paragraph and a

932
00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:45,480
chapter in the book.
That's our lives.

933
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,640
And so you need to take a step
back, you know, yes, you know, I

934
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:55,720
so I'm launching this book and I
somewhere late last summer.

935
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:56,880
Let's plug it.
What's the name of the book?

936
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,600
The book is the road.
The road less triggered.

937
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,240
Thank you.
Yes, conflict into connection.

938
00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:06,920
With a single choice.
And, you know, we were early and

939
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,080
starting to launch it late
summer and all my neurosis were

940
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,120
showing up, you know, like, Oh
my, Oh my gosh, I'm, I've messed

941
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:15,720
this up.
I'm going to mess this up, you

942
00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:19,360
know, And I got on a call with
my spiritual director again, and

943
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,640
I'll never forget what he said.
He's got these lines every once

944
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:22,760
in a while that just stick with
me.

945
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:29,280
This one was Paul Kelly.
He said you might this book

946
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,640
launch might be a smashing
success or you might mess it up

947
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,520
royally, but all you will have
done is created the next

948
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,280
conditions for your spiritual
growth.

949
00:51:39,720 --> 00:51:41,640
Beautiful, right?
Like in my head to your.

950
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,160
Point from I was like, well, if
it's a success, I've reached

951
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,760
some sort of finish line and now
I'm now it's sort of Oh yeah,

952
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,160
great.
I just get to like, I don't know

953
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,720
what drink Pina coladas by the
pool the rest of my life.

954
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:52,280
I don't know what I, I don't
know what I think that's going

955
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,280
to be, but I'm, I'm, I'm
tantalized by it.

956
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:56,520
And if I mess it up, then I've
got work to do.

957
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,920
And he's like, no, like even
success presents its own

958
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:03,680
challenges for spiritual growth.
And then he said sometime later,

959
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,920
because this is, this is
something I need hammered home.

960
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,400
Like you said, you are not here
to be finished.

961
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,480
You're here to be formed.
Nice, excellent.

962
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,840
Don't don't get caught thinking
you're going to get to a finish

963
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:17,800
line.
You will be formed until the day

964
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,080
you die.
And that's what we're here for.

965
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,880
And so I'm trying to surrender
to that one, one meeting at a

966
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,200
time with him.
Can I ask if you don't mind,

967
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,160
just because you brought it up a
couple of times, the value of

968
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,600
having a spiritual leader as
opposed to there's a therapist

969
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,880
or a psychologist or something,
unless he serves as both or what

970
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:38,720
do you think?
Like what would you recommend

971
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:40,080
that for everyone?
What do you what's your

972
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,080
thoughts?
That's another good question.

973
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:46,200
I've never gotten.
So I'd say like, you know,

974
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,480
therapist, coach.
Spiritual Director.

975
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,800
They all share a lot in common,
right?

976
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,200
If they're doing their job well,
they're sort of dipping their

977
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:03,240
toes in sort of the strengths of
each of those disciplines.

978
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:10,000
I think the difference with the
spiritual director is the at

979
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:14,560
least.
In my spiritual director,

980
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:20,560
there's a.
Trust that he is.

981
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:26,960
Holding.
Space for divine wisdom to

982
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,240
present itself in that space.
Like he's not trying to get you

983
00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:35,280
to a certain place.
He doesn't have cognitive

984
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,160
restructuring he wants to do
today.

985
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,800
He doesn't have a goal that you
is going to hold you accountable

986
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:42,400
to.
He's going to say, let's hold

987
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,200
space and let's see how God
shows up.

988
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,600
And that's going to be a
surprise to both of us today.

989
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,520
And good spiritual directors are
really good at holding that

990
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:50,880
space.
And a lot of it just comes from

991
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,480
their trust and their faith
that, that God's always present

992
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,720
and always trying to speak to us
through our human experiences.

993
00:53:56,720 --> 00:53:59,280
So yeah, he just, he does a
fabulous job.

994
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,400
And then, but then every once in
a while he'll sort of summarize

995
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,760
what's being said or what's
happening or what's being

996
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,520
experienced.
It doesn't sound as good.

997
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,200
He'll, he'll summarize it.
And it's like, like you said, he

998
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,360
puts it into words and that
makes it more powerful.

999
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:16,160
And so he has a, he has a really
a gift for summarizing complex

1000
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,200
experiences and meaningful words
for me.

1001
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:24,160
So, but but yeah, I just, I
mean, for what it's worth, I

1002
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:25,840
didn't go looking for a
spiritual director.

1003
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,480
I knew I needed to see a
therapist, didn't know where to

1004
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,480
look.
And I was on the, I was on the

1005
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,680
phone with him one day as a
friend, Ish.

1006
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,640
And he was talking to me about,
you know, the work he was doing

1007
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,080
in spiritual direction.
And I just sort of and something

1008
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:42,960
happened on that call where he
held space for me better than

1009
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,480
anyone else had.
And I was like, I'll just try

1010
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,400
this experiment.
Like I'll, I'll be your direct D

1011
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:50,720
for a while.
And, you know, here we are a few

1012
00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:53,760
years later and it's it's once a
month and it's it's just what I

1013
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:55,200
need.
That's awesome.

1014
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:56,760
That's really, really great.
Yeah.

1015
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,400
I think you put that you put
that really, really well.

1016
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:05,440
And I think another way to maybe
unless and see if I understand

1017
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:09,880
this correctly, when you're kind
of talking about a spiritual

1018
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,640
sense or the sense of God or
sense of right and wrong, it

1019
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,480
almost reframes.
Everything into a.

1020
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,480
Much.
More you, you, you like we get

1021
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,360
caught up in the subjectivity of
our own perceptions and lives.

1022
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,240
And this moves us to a little
bit more of an objective playing

1023
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:28,120
field where we kind of trace
ourselves and reorient and map

1024
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:32,320
ourselves where we are and
recalibrate according to this

1025
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:34,840
big objective.
As opposed to just how I feel

1026
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,880
about where I am in my life in
my head.

1027
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:42,440
You know, it's a great way to
say it like, and I think at

1028
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:44,480
least in this, you know,
spiritual direction that I'm

1029
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:49,600
doing like.
Most of us human beings are

1030
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:51,800
caught in a.
Situation where we've decided

1031
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,920
what things are acceptable to
think and feel and do and we let

1032
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:58,800
ourselves be aware of those and
everything else we push out into

1033
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:03,000
our unawareness right or what
Carl Jung called our shadow and

1034
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:09,200
and increasingly like I'm aware
that the the spiritual.

1035
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:13,400
Journey.
The, the emotional journey, the

1036
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,680
you know, the relational
journey, the life journey is

1037
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,520
about learning to integrate more
and more of what you've rejected

1038
00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:23,560
about yourself and about life
and pushed into your shadow to

1039
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,920
become aware of it and start to
integrate it with who you are.

1040
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:28,600
And you can only do that in
spaces where you feel really

1041
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:33,840
safe and loved, right?
A space where someone you know,

1042
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,520
will not reject you for the
things you've already rejected

1043
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,560
about yourself and therefore
don't pay attention to.

1044
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:44,800
And so as that space is held and
you feel that permission to call

1045
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,320
those things forward, you're
actually healing, you're

1046
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,040
holding, you know, you're
growing more, more beautifully

1047
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,960
human.
I, I'll never one of those

1048
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,400
people in my life is honestly my
literary agent.

1049
00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:00,600
Oh, yeah, I'll never.
She's she's, she's, she's also

1050
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,880
an equine assisted therapist.
So she has that capacity for

1051
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,440
holding space and she was
challenging me on something.

1052
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:08,680
She's like, your answers aren't
making sense.

1053
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:10,600
And she was just sort of poking
me and I fell safe enough with

1054
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,280
her and I was like, I just burst
out.

1055
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,000
I go, wait, you know what it is?
It's just that I, I think I'm

1056
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:20,120
selfish and like this is the
thing I had pushed into my

1057
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:23,200
shadows that I'm selfish.
I'm a selfish person, right?

1058
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,920
And, and, and just to be able to
bring that out of the shadow and

1059
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,960
say it out loud to somebody.
I think I'm a selfish person,

1060
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:35,840
right?
And I was in a, I was in a

1061
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:42,080
session at the conference where
we were at the next day and I

1062
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:48,560
had this experience again of
feeling like cared for by God's

1063
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:52,440
presence and, and just hearing
that, Kelly, hey, you know, your

1064
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:54,920
selfishness, it didn't start out
as selfishness.

1065
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,920
It started out as having to
raise yourself right and, and,

1066
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,800
and, and so some grace came in
around that thing I had rejected

1067
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,520
about myself and the fuck the
fabulous thing about this, I

1068
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:09,560
just the way this played out.
So it was like a week later and

1069
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:14,200
I was in the bathroom back home
from the conference and I got

1070
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,600
out of the shower and there the
towels had all been taken to the

1071
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:18,240
laundry and there were no towels
on the rack.

1072
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:19,760
So I went over to the linen
closet.

1073
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,720
I got a towel for myself and
dried off and I put it on and I

1074
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:26,760
was walking out of the bathroom
and I went, I didn't put a towel

1075
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,320
on my wife's hook.
That was selfish.

1076
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,440
And it dawned on me.
This is what she's been talking

1077
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:33,720
about for years.
But I've I've always resisted

1078
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,520
it, defended myself, protected
myself.

1079
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,880
I reject my own selfishness.
So I have to reject her when she

1080
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,600
points it out, right?
And I was just like, oh man,

1081
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:44,680
like I went and got her a towel.
I put it on her hook.

1082
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:47,120
I texted her, I said, hey, guess
what I just did.

1083
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:49,160
I got a towel and I didn't get
you one.

1084
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:54,000
Sorry.
That was selfish And and that's

1085
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:58,120
how that's how we heal that's
how we grow is beginning to

1086
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,440
accept those things so we can
own them and begin to show up

1087
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:05,680
differently and safe loving
spaces help us to to do that

1088
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:11,160
self acceptance.
Yeah, I think that I.

1089
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,520
I I don't.
Think that I don't.

1090
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:18,400
I don't think that we give
ourselves enough leeway.

1091
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:19,880
Generally.
We're much harder on ourselves

1092
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,840
than anyone else's.
And a lot of times when we don't

1093
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:27,560
communicate, it ends up
snowballing and spiraling into

1094
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:33,080
something far worse than if you
had had the I don't want to call

1095
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,280
it guts because it's not guts.
It's it's, there's another word

1096
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:40,160
for it, but the will.
I don't want to use that word

1097
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,800
either, you know, but like the
perhaps the tenacity to express

1098
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:47,240
yourself and to make yourself
vulnerable and say, hey, I'm

1099
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,360
having a hard time with this.
You know, I find that I drinking

1100
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:51,720
a little bit more than I would
have liked.

1101
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:54,040
I find that I'm not exercising
as much I would have liked.

1102
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:56,760
I'm spending too much time in
social media and I feel myself,

1103
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:01,000
I feel myself slipping into
something and it's OK and like.

1104
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:03,360
And I, I suffer from this a lot
too.

1105
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,720
I, I do this all the time.
And because I think that there's

1106
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:09,240
a certain yardstick that I'm
supposed to be holding myself to

1107
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:10,440
in a certain level of
accountability.

1108
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:13,240
I'm not supposed to be the
husband and the father that

1109
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,440
spends so much time scrolling.
I'm not supposed to be the dad

1110
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,640
that smokes too much.
I'm not supposed to do whatever

1111
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:19,280
it is.
And yet here I am.

1112
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:23,040
And if and then if I keep that,
I keep that locked up, like what

1113
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:27,080
you say rejected about myself or
but if I kind of catch it and

1114
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,360
communicate it, it ends up that
ends up a curing loneliness,

1115
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,040
like what you or at least
starting the road down curing it

1116
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:38,400
and B it becomes almost like a
group project or a group effort

1117
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,680
that that you know that you have
that support for that makes all

1118
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:44,400
the difference in the world.
Well, I always say like the

1119
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,920
three like if you want to look
for semantic red flags that your

1120
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:55,280
shame is operating, it's I'm not
something enough should is

1121
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:59,160
usually a a sign of shame and
supposed to or not supposed to.

1122
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,520
These are these are all ways
that it's gotten baked into our

1123
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:06,920
our mental sort of ruts.
We're we're basically saying I

1124
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:11,240
am acceptable only if only if I
do that thing I should or I'm

1125
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,040
supposed to.
I think stipulation on your, on

1126
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:19,200
yourself, conditional,
conditional love and shame is

1127
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,520
fueled by hiding.
My novel is The Unhiding of

1128
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,400
Elijah Campbell.
It's about a man overcoming

1129
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:29,160
shame because shame is just sort
of exacerbated by the hiding

1130
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:31,480
attempt to to solve it by hiding
it.

1131
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:38,000
And as soon as you open up
share, express, shine some light

1132
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:40,680
on that thing you're ashamed of,
you'll notice that it actually

1133
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:44,600
dissipates almost immediately.
Now, the next day, you might

1134
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,320
have a vulnerability hangover as
yourself protections kick back

1135
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,680
in going, Oh my gosh, I can't
believe you said that or did

1136
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,440
that or shared that.
But in the moment, you'll feel

1137
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:56,240
your shame go away completely.
And assuming you, you know,

1138
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:59,960
share it with somebody who
doesn't shame you for it, which

1139
01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:02,280
can happen.
But I was going to say it, yes.

1140
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,600
Why is vulnerability not, you
know, thoughtless vulnerability

1141
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,680
wise vulnerability, share it
with somebody who can be trusted

1142
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:10,040
with it.
Your shame drops.

1143
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:11,760
You'll get a little bit of a
hangover the next day.

1144
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:15,240
But repetitions of this are how
we sort of bring ourselves out

1145
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,040
of the shadow.
And can I ask now, I think this

1146
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,480
is equally, if not more
important, how to be a good

1147
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,960
supporter of someone that is
coming to you like that, right?

1148
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:27,520
Meaning that we're all focused
on solving our own problems.

1149
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:30,640
On the other hand, if my, if my
wife is talking to me and then

1150
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:33,400
she says something she's
insecure about, oh, you're,

1151
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:35,640
it'll be OK.
And then I just never bring it

1152
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:37,960
up again or I never, you know, I
never, I never ask.

1153
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:40,520
How do you feel about that?
Or are we working on this?

1154
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,400
What, what do you, what do you
recommend for that?

1155
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:48,840
It's a great question because
you're picking up on something

1156
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:52,160
very subtle there that a lot of
people won't pick up on that are

1157
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:57,400
quick encouragement is often our
own way of saying, I don't know

1158
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:01,600
that I want to sit with this.
And that subtly sends the other

1159
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:05,440
person the opposite message,
which is even though my word

1160
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:10,480
said, oh, it's fine.
My body language and my, my pace

1161
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,440
and everything, my energy
communicated, I don't that

1162
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:15,520
that's not something I want to
be with, right.

1163
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:21,560
And so, yeah, I mean, one of the
one of the things my first

1164
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,080
therapist did, which was so
good, he was just whenever I'd

1165
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,160
say something like that, he'd
go, yeah, of course, of course

1166
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:29,200
you do.
Like, of course is the best

1167
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,680
phrase.
Like I remember he asked me one

1168
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:35,280
day, he goes, Kelly, do you
think you're arrogant?

1169
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:40,680
And I was like I said, I do, I
think I'm arrogant.

1170
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,920
And he said, I think you are
too, about as much as the rest

1171
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,960
of us, Right.
Which is just like, Oh yeah,

1172
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:51,800
we're all arrogant a little bit.
You know, this isn't about sort

1173
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:53,800
of like a removing that part of
our humanity.

1174
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:56,280
So like, yeah, of course.
Yeah, you are.

1175
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,520
Me too.
Yep, me too is a good one.

1176
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,800
Curiosity is there.
You know anything more you want

1177
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,360
to tell me?
I'm here for you.

1178
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:09,200
What can I do for you?
Just anything that communicates.

1179
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:13,240
I don't need to rush through
this and I'm not afraid of it.

1180
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:16,120
And I and I don't love you less
because of it.

1181
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,960
I mean, those three things.
I'm here, I'm not afraid and I

1182
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:21,920
love you.
And that can be a really

1183
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:25,200
powerful space that you create
for the other person to show up

1184
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,200
a little bit more bravely.
And what about for like a

1185
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:29,680
friendship?
Because again, you know, going

1186
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,520
back to people that have a hard
time just in general with

1187
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:33,520
relationships, some people don't
know how to be good friends.

1188
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:38,400
And I, I've noticed myself a big
flaw in my being ability to be a

1189
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,520
friend is I'm up, I've been
working on this for years, but

1190
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:43,840
I'm a bad listener.
I'm a really bad listener.

1191
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:47,040
And I get so excited about what
other people are saying that I

1192
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:49,880
want to just jump in and, you
know, just talk on it, you know,

1193
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,840
and I, it's a problem.
It's it, it makes it hard to,

1194
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:55,440
to, it makes it hard to be a
good friend and to let people

1195
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:57,840
finish their thoughts.
And I often end up trying to

1196
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:00,680
finish their thoughts for them.
And then when I'm wrong, it

1197
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:05,320
makes they feel, Hey, this guy
doesn't get me, you know?

1198
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:07,920
And so a lot of times, the
listening is actually one of the

1199
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,040
hardest things in a friendship.
Yes.

1200
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:16,720
First of all, like, you just
demonstrated what we're talking

1201
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:18,680
about in a really beautiful way,
right?

1202
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,760
Like the fact that I'm not a
very good listener at times.

1203
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:26,240
I get eager and I sort of
override somebody and then they

1204
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:30,200
don't feel seen or heard.
Like, that's something that you

1205
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:33,000
could push into your shadow and
be ashamed of and therefore

1206
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,440
ignore and never attend to.
But here you are.

1207
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:37,560
You brought it out of the
shadow.

1208
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:41,200
You're, you're aware of it.
And so as soon as you're aware

1209
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:44,160
of it, it's something you can
work with and, and you can

1210
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:46,240
continue to work on and improve
upon.

1211
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:49,960
So I commend you for your
willingness to be aware of it

1212
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,640
and to, to not be ashamed of it,
to share it here.

1213
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,960
A couple of things that to to go
back to that idea of loneliness.

1214
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:02,720
Friendship is also about
loneliness, so right?

1215
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:07,280
So am I helping my friend feel
seen, understood and supported?

1216
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:11,840
Those 3 pillars again, number
one.

1217
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:16,000
And then #2 easier said than
done.

1218
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:19,040
And so sometimes having
practical tools can really help

1219
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:21,920
with that.
And one of the, one of the main

1220
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:28,000
tools I, I ask every couple to
use that I work with, It's the

1221
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:32,920
only actual intervention in all
of the decades of marital

1222
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,400
therapy research that's really
been shown consistently to

1223
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,240
effectively improve
communication.

1224
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:40,040
It's called the speaker listener
technique.

1225
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,400
And that sounds a little dry,
but basically what it does is it

1226
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,920
clarifies that there's one
speaker and 1 listener at all

1227
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:48,400
times.
And the listener's job is to put

1228
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:53,400
aside all of their reactions and
thoughts and ideas and to make

1229
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:55,800
sure that they don't take the
speaker rollback until they

1230
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,760
fully understood what the other
person is saying.

1231
01:06:57,760 --> 01:06:59,640
They don't have to agree with
it, right?

1232
01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:02,840
It's not seen, agreed with and,
and supported.

1233
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,280
It's seen, understood and
supported.

1234
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,360
And so you, the listener engages
in an active process of

1235
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:12,880
paraphrasing back what they've
heard to make sure that they

1236
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,720
really get it before they, they
move forward.

1237
01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:20,840
And that little just sort of
pause button on the conversation

1238
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:24,600
for, for a listener just OK,
what I hear you saying.

1239
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:30,360
So what I'm hearing you saying
is this goes a long way.

1240
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,520
Toward.
Establishing really connected

1241
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:35,560
friendship because the other
person really feels understood

1242
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:38,760
and it sets a pause on you so
that you can you'll get your

1243
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:43,120
chance and now you can jump in
with your reactions and thoughts

1244
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,360
to it, but it helps you to sort
of hold that space in a more

1245
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:47,200
intentional way.
Awesome.

1246
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:49,120
Yeah.
And that's a really, really

1247
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:51,760
important.
I think that like, on one hand,

1248
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:54,440
it's a great tool to use in a,
in a, you know, therapeutic

1249
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,960
setting.
On the other hand, it's a great

1250
01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:00,280
tool to use in general.
You talk about anything.

1251
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,800
And especially in such a
polarized world, this is such a,

1252
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:05,760
this is such great advice
because if you're talking to

1253
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:08,040
someone about politics, you're
talking to someone about

1254
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:10,440
business, you're talking to
someone about current events or

1255
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:12,960
what's going on in the news.
And you and you talk to them

1256
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:16,040
about.
And I've had this fun experience

1257
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:19,120
where I've been talking to
people, but there's so many hot

1258
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:23,920
topic issues going on.
And I tend to be left-leaning of

1259
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:27,399
my right leaning friends and
right leaning of my left-leaning

1260
01:08:27,399 --> 01:08:30,040
friends.
So I, I, and one of the things I

1261
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:33,399
feel, yeah, yeah.
And you know, and it's, it's,

1262
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:37,920
and I tend to judge be pretty
pretty much almost exclusively

1263
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:41,359
anti authoritarian, But that's,
that's just because of my

1264
01:08:41,359 --> 01:08:43,520
personal experience.
I already know that that's just

1265
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:46,279
my my stick.
But one thing that I've been

1266
01:08:46,279 --> 01:08:49,040
doing is I've been asking my
friends, well, what do you think

1267
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,359
of this event?
Or what do you think happened or

1268
01:08:52,359 --> 01:08:54,160
what, what's your take on what
happened?

1269
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,080
And then I'll hear their
understanding of the event.

1270
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:00,560
And then I'll decide how to
continue the conversation from

1271
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:06,840
there because I'll say we would
have gone into a straight fight

1272
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:09,479
if I'd just gone with the
presumption that you understood

1273
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:10,800
the story the same way that I
had.

1274
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,479
So what do you think of that?
I think that that's what

1275
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:14,600
happened.
It was good because of this, and

1276
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:16,279
it was bad because of that.
Or I think it was only good

1277
01:09:16,279 --> 01:09:17,520
because this or only bad because
of that.

1278
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:19,920
Like, OK.
And sometimes I'll, sometimes

1279
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,680
I'll hear it.
I'm like, I am at such a

1280
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:24,840
different page that I'm not even
going to, I'm not even going to,

1281
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:27,120
you know, argue about this.
Like I'll just, OK, that's where

1282
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:28,640
they are.
And then there's sometimes

1283
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:31,399
they'll like, oh, so you mean to
say that and they'll say, yeah.

1284
01:09:31,399 --> 01:09:32,960
And I'm like, oh, OK, yeah, I
hear that too.

1285
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:35,840
You know, And that really,
really helps so much because.

1286
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:37,840
And that's why I have friends on
both sides of the spectrum

1287
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,680
because it's so easy to do that.
And once everyone's heard, they

1288
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:43,439
feel like they're heard and they
feel like they can now share

1289
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:45,600
with you and relate to you.
So good, man.

1290
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:52,479
I I had, I was working with a
couple once and they came to the

1291
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:56,040
hour fighting about where they
were going to put ATV in their

1292
01:09:56,040 --> 01:10:00,040
home.
And so I was holding space

1293
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,400
listening to them go back and
forth and like, I heard, thought

1294
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:04,960
I heard something.
I go.

1295
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:09,080
Can you paraphrase what he just
said?

1296
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:14,520
And what it turned out was that
he was saying, I want to put the

1297
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:19,280
TV in the living room and I and
he I had her actually like

1298
01:10:19,440 --> 01:10:22,120
paraphrase what he meant, it
turned out he meant the family

1299
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:25,640
room.
She was thought he they were

1300
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:27,680
referring to the room by
different names, basically.

1301
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:30,560
And she was like.
Oh, you want to?

1302
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,240
Put it in the family room.
Sure, that's fine.

1303
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:37,920
Yeah, To your point, like as
soon as there is an assumption

1304
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:41,200
that we understand each other
when we're talking about very

1305
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:44,520
different things, the
conversation will ultimately go

1306
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,400
off the rails.
I remember my wife once I was

1307
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:51,920
consulting with her about a
clinical situation where someone

1308
01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:54,680
had told me that they were sad.
And I just, I'll never forget

1309
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:56,040
this moment.
She was, What did they mean by

1310
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:57,720
sad?
I was like.

1311
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:04,080
I mean sad, you know?
She's like, she's like, no, I

1312
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:06,800
don't.
She's a child psychologist and

1313
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:08,760
sadness shows up very
differently for kids in

1314
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:10,800
different ways.
So I went back into my next

1315
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:15,760
session and thinking for me, sad
meant, you know, sort of going

1316
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:19,720
through life and feeling a
little bit more retreated into

1317
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:22,960
oneself and, and maybe feeling a
little more tender.

1318
01:11:23,480 --> 01:11:26,000
And this person had an entire
when she said sad, she meant

1319
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:30,640
something totally different.
So can we slow down enough that

1320
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:34,880
part of us that thinks I'm here
to prove my point, win an

1321
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:36,880
argument or even just debate
something?

1322
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:40,600
Can we slow down long enough to,
to to confirm that we actually

1323
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:42,600
understand where the other
person's coming from, what their

1324
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:45,600
reality is, what they're, you
know, how they define their

1325
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,440
words even.
So I think that's, I think

1326
01:11:48,440 --> 01:11:50,640
that's a huge point you've made
there in terms of connection.

1327
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:54,280
Yeah, thank you.
Well, I, I, I would just, you

1328
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:57,720
know, try my best over here, you
know, and that that's what all

1329
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:00,000
of us are trying to do.
And I'm just trying to see what

1330
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,400
works.
And I've spent, you've brought

1331
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:05,320
up pop culture references.
So now it now it's fair game.

1332
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:09,880
Have you seen the movie Arrival?
You know what Jimmy Adams I

1333
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:11,360
think is your name?
I have.

1334
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:12,840
It's the it's the alien movie,
right?

1335
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:16,680
The alien movie.
I am so afraid to watch alien

1336
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:19,120
movies because I'm so convinced
that the aliens are real.

1337
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:24,320
No, I don't want to do anything
to my they're permanently

1338
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:28,080
damaging to my mental state.
I got good news.

1339
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:30,400
I got good news for you.
So that that movie, when you see

1340
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:33,600
like the way it's reviewed, like
it's got like a 3 1/2 star

1341
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:36,800
average, it's because either
either review it as a 5 or like

1342
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:38,240
A1 and A2, right?
Gotcha.

1343
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:40,720
And, and the reason for that is
if you go to it expecting it to

1344
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:43,120
be an alien movie, you're
totally disappointed because

1345
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:47,840
what it is, is that Amy Adams
plays a linguist who she's sort

1346
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:51,040
of brought in by the, you know,
the US military to just to try

1347
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:54,240
to learn how to communicate with
these these foreigners

1348
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:55,920
basically, and.
So the.

1349
01:12:55,920 --> 01:13:00,000
Movie is a study of the nuance
of communication and how I love

1350
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:01,960
that how many assumptions we
make.

1351
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:06,280
She's like when we need to know
what they what they mean when

1352
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,120
they say we do they even think
of themselves collectively?

1353
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:11,400
Are they just referring to the
two people I'm talking to or the

1354
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:13,520
entire race?
Or do you know like and?

1355
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:16,320
It you.
Would from a communication

1356
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:18,880
connection perspective, it is a
masterpiece.

1357
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:20,400
You would love it.
I'm going to check it out.

1358
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:21,440
I'm definitely going to check it
out.

1359
01:13:21,440 --> 01:13:23,840
Did you, did you watch Pluribus
or did you start it?

1360
01:13:24,480 --> 01:13:26,520
Yes, on Apple.
What What what do you think of

1361
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:28,520
that?
My wife and daughter and I got

1362
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:29,360
hooked on that.
Yeah.

1363
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:30,720
You got hooked.
You're into it.

1364
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:36,600
Yeah, we're into it.
So the criticisms are some of

1365
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:40,120
them are valid.
It's a slow moving show in in

1366
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:42,760
our in our fast.
I like that genre, though.

1367
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:46,360
There's a lot of good slow
moving shows out recently, you

1368
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:47,680
know.
Well, there's so much happening

1369
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:49,760
in the slowness.
That's right.

1370
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:52,200
And to be able to see that.
Oh yeah.

1371
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:54,720
I, I absolutely.
We thought that was brilliant.

1372
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:56,840
We're we can't wait for season 2
to come out.

1373
01:13:56,880 --> 01:13:58,760
Yeah, yeah.
OK.

1374
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:01,560
I want to, I want to, I want to
go more into your book with the

1375
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:05,520
last, with the last 20 minutes
that we have The Road last

1376
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:07,840
Triggered, which is a very
relatable title.

1377
01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:11,400
You got, it seems like you have
a knack for titles because, and,

1378
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:13,760
and that's a really good thing
because everything in life, I've

1379
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:16,680
realized is just sales and all
about how you're going to sell

1380
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:18,920
yourself.
And so with these great titles

1381
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:22,840
like Marriages for Losers or The
Road Last Triggered, you know

1382
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:26,280
that you're you're you're really
speaking to something that is

1383
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:27,400
really in the zeitgeist.
So.

1384
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:30,480
So can you tell me about the
process of writing this,

1385
01:14:30,480 --> 01:14:32,640
researching?
How'd you, how'd you, how'd you,

1386
01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:35,120
how'd you go about dealing with
this book?

1387
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:41,560
Yeah, good question.
So first of all, I'll say that I

1388
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:44,600
wrote the entire book, almost
all the way to the final draft

1389
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:50,680
under a different title.
The title was open hearted, but

1390
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,240
in the process of writing it.
So there was a very iterative

1391
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:58,040
process.
I was working with my literary

1392
01:14:58,040 --> 01:15:02,960
agent, who's also great
editorial resource, my wife, my

1393
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,720
own experience.
I was presenting it chapter by

1394
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:09,600
chapter to my online tribe, the
less triggered tribe on Sub

1395
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:11,920
Stack.
We were meeting once a month and

1396
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:15,200
digging into the ideas.
I was going on the road and and

1397
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:16,840
speaking.
It's just hard to do when you

1398
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:19,680
know something's not totally
locked in, but to just see

1399
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:23,440
what's hitting and what's not.
And what I discovered in that

1400
01:15:23,440 --> 01:15:28,160
process is for me, five years
into practicing open

1401
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:33,160
heartedness, I understand what
it is and the strength of it and

1402
01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:36,520
the benefits and the payouts of
it, the the level of connection

1403
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:38,720
that's possible when you're
showing up open heartedly.

1404
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:41,160
Most people when they hear open
hearted, they hear I'm going to

1405
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:43,760
have to be a doormat.
You can't have any boundaries.

1406
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:46,480
I'm going to have to say
whatever is on my mind.

1407
01:15:47,480 --> 01:15:51,240
And so one of the first things I
say to people now is an open

1408
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:52,960
heart doesn't make your
boundaries weaker.

1409
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:56,600
It makes your boundaries wiser,
OK, It doesn't make you a weaker

1410
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:58,040
person.
It makes you a wiser person.

1411
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:03,160
But it was clear to me in in
that process that putting open

1412
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:07,960
hearted on the cover was a non
starter because it's, it's, it's

1413
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:09,480
so misconceived by people,
right?

1414
01:16:09,480 --> 01:16:13,040
It would have been the opposite
of marriages for losers.

1415
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:14,960
It would have been too, it would
have been too good.

1416
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:18,000
You know, it would have just
been too on the nose and, and,

1417
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:21,680
and the reality is what I've
discovered over the last five

1418
01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:25,160
years is that open heartedness
is the solution for our

1419
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:28,360
triggered moments.
And that's what we really need

1420
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:29,600
help with.
I don't think anyone's walking

1421
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:31,040
around going.
I've got to figure out how to be

1422
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:32,040
more open hearted.
We got it.

1423
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:35,600
We're walking around going.
It happened again, like we were

1424
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:39,440
having a good day.
And then they said that thing

1425
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:42,080
and I could feel myself tighten
up in my chest or I couldn't,

1426
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:43,760
which is probably the problem.
I didn't even notice it.

1427
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:46,040
And then they were like, whoa,
what?

1428
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:48,280
Why are you getting all hurt
about that?

1429
01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:50,120
And then we're off to the races,
right?

1430
01:16:50,480 --> 01:16:54,080
Or you're in your car with your
kid and you're like, I got 30

1431
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:56,200
minutes in the car with my
teenager, right?

1432
01:16:56,480 --> 01:16:59,360
And then they just say something
that just sets you off and all

1433
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:00,880
of a sudden you're lecturing
about how they need to

1434
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:04,280
appreciate things more, right?
And like that moment that

1435
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:07,400
repeats itself over and over
again where you get triggered in

1436
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:11,440
your relationship and you, you
sort of revert into the same old

1437
01:17:11,440 --> 01:17:14,360
problematic pattern that's going
to keep you stuck in the same

1438
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:17,600
old level of, of disconnect and
conflict.

1439
01:17:18,480 --> 01:17:21,040
That's that's what I'm
passionate about helping people

1440
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:25,360
with now cultivating the
capacity to stay open hearted in

1441
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:29,120
that moment is the most powerful
solution you will ever encounter

1442
01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:33,440
in your life.
But it's not it's not

1443
01:17:33,440 --> 01:17:35,000
necessarily what we're thinking
about every day.

1444
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:36,280
So we went with the road less
triggered.

1445
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:39,040
I love the title.
The Road Less Travelled was one

1446
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:43,160
of my favorite books as I was
being formed as a psychologist,

1447
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:44,520
written by a Christian
therapist.

1448
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:51,240
And so to, to, to name a book
in, in the, in that vein is in a

1449
01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:54,440
way, sort of an honor to, to, to
follow on Scott Peck's heels.

1450
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:05,640
From 2021 till about. 2023 I
realized that I couldn't.

1451
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:09,200
I looked into the spiritual
every spiritual tradition I

1452
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:12,320
could find, all the scientific
traditions, I couldn't find any.

1453
01:18:12,440 --> 01:18:15,520
My, my New Year's resolution was
moment to moment and notice my

1454
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:17,080
heart closing and try to open it
back up.

1455
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:20,840
But I couldn't find any
tradition, faith, scientific,

1456
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:26,200
poetic that that laid out how to
do that, how to actually catch

1457
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:28,960
your heart closing.
When you're catching your heart

1458
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:31,520
closing is something just
happened and now you're flipping

1459
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:33,440
from connection mode into
protection mode.

1460
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:36,040
And what you want most is
connection in this moment, but

1461
01:18:36,040 --> 01:18:37,840
you're about to show up
protectively and make that

1462
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:42,040
impossible, right?
And so I realized I was going to

1463
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:44,640
have to develop the curriculum
for open heartedness.

1464
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:49,000
I was going to have to develop
the method for staying together

1465
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:50,480
rather than the trigger.
That's what I, so that's what I

1466
01:18:50,480 --> 01:18:53,520
did for, for several years and,
and feel tested it with clients

1467
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:57,480
and, and in our community.
And I'm really proud of of we

1468
01:18:57,480 --> 01:18:59,520
call it the peaceful pivot
process in the book.

1469
01:19:00,440 --> 01:19:05,640
It's a three-part process.
First getting calm, then

1470
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:07,160
getting.
Free of the.

1471
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:09,760
Emotional patterns in you that
are underpinning your triggered

1472
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:12,120
moments.
And then getting connected, we

1473
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:15,520
usually reverse that.
We're like, oh, this doesn't

1474
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:16,920
feel good.
So I'm going to try to connect

1475
01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:19,600
with you so that you'll do
something different to make me

1476
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:22,160
feel better in here.
And this process turns that on

1477
01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:24,760
its head and it's you take
responsibility for your own self

1478
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:27,840
regulation, disrupting your
defensive patterns, getting your

1479
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:31,760
body calm, your nervous system
regulated, and now you can start

1480
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:34,320
to take more ownership for how
you're showing up and actually

1481
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:37,840
get connected open heartedly.
So I'm really excited about the

1482
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:40,520
process.
I'm, I've experienced the

1483
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:43,080
changes in my own life over the
last five years and, and to

1484
01:19:43,080 --> 01:19:46,680
watch the my online community
start to practice this.

1485
01:19:47,040 --> 01:19:48,960
And we just had our monthly
meeting in January.

1486
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:51,600
They came back after the
holidays and we celebrated the

1487
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:53,920
wins.
Like I was able to stay open

1488
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:55,960
hearted in this moment where I
usually get triggered and I

1489
01:19:55,960 --> 01:20:00,080
close and guess what happened.
And it is always better.

1490
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:04,200
It is always better.
Early on in the book, I talk

1491
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:05,600
about the difference between
pain and suffering.

1492
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:08,440
What happens in the triggered
moment is you're starting to

1493
01:20:08,440 --> 01:20:11,080
feel a little bit of pain about
something, right?

1494
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:14,280
But pain is inevitable.
That's gonna happen in human

1495
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:16,400
relationships.
Suffering is everything we

1496
01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:18,760
create.
After that, when we shut down,

1497
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:21,280
get triggered, close our hearts
and go into protection mode.

1498
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:24,320
And so we want to alleviate the
suffering that comes from that.

1499
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:27,800
Learn how to stay, stay present
in that, in that, in that pain

1500
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:31,120
point, and show up to it with
your wisest, most connective

1501
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:32,360
self.
So that's what this book is

1502
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:35,840
trying to help people do.
Yeah, that sounds awesome.

1503
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:37,040
It sounds.
Really, really great.

1504
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:40,480
And I imagine there's a there's
an amazing book in Jewish

1505
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:44,920
literature and it's called The
Path of the Righteous.

1506
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:48,720
We had hundreds of years ago by
an Italian rabbi.

1507
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:52,680
And he's actually still has a
synagogue that's still active in

1508
01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:55,280
Venice, which is really cool
years later.

1509
01:20:55,440 --> 01:20:58,240
It's really fascinating.
And one of the things that he

1510
01:20:58,240 --> 01:21:00,400
talks that he says in this
introduction to this awesome

1511
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:04,240
book, it goes through different
personality traits to work on in

1512
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:07,760
order to, you know, kind of
emulate or imitate God that are

1513
01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:10,800
similar to what God says that
people should strive for as far

1514
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:13,720
as enhance consciousness.
And because everything I'm going

1515
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:16,600
to tell you, there's nothing you
haven't already heard.

1516
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:20,920
But think if you do not
constantly reinforce are going

1517
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:22,280
to slip into the back of your
head.

1518
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:26,720
And and he goes, I am not here
to teach you anything new.

1519
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:29,120
I'm not here to tell you, you
know, there's nothing new under

1520
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:33,360
the sun, you know, and you you
know this and I know this, but

1521
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:37,280
it has to be looked at again.
It has to be reviewed.

1522
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:40,840
It has to be repeated.
And so I think that, and I've

1523
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:44,720
known for myself, for example,
that there's a great book by a

1524
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:48,680
guy, by a researcher or
Professor Ethan Cross, I

1525
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:52,480
believe, called Chatter.
Oh yeah, I read Chatter, Yeah.

1526
01:21:52,480 --> 01:21:54,880
And one of the things I talk
about is voices in your head and

1527
01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:57,320
how they can be manipulated.
And one of the ways that you

1528
01:21:57,320 --> 01:22:02,400
reinforce it is by on a regular
basis saying, you know, say you

1529
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:04,480
can even say it verbally.
And I'll do this when I'm

1530
01:22:04,480 --> 01:22:07,120
jogging and I'm not in the mood.
I'll say this is a breeze.

1531
01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:08,320
This is a breeze.
I got this.

1532
01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:12,040
I've run this before and, and,
and, and, and then it gets

1533
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:15,040
reinforced.
And so a lot of times the trains

1534
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:18,280
of thought or the, or the
behavior modifications or the

1535
01:22:18,280 --> 01:22:21,720
thought modifications that we're
trying to establish are

1536
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:26,680
enormously strengthened by just
by just reviewing it.

1537
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:28,080
And we know that.
Yeah.

1538
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:29,720
How effective that is.
Yeah.

1539
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:32,600
He, he mentioned somewhere in
that book the data that shows

1540
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:34,880
that when you speak to yourself
in the third person, it

1541
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:36,960
immediately creates emotional
regulation.

1542
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:39,440
That's interesting.
Isn't that interesting?

1543
01:22:39,440 --> 01:22:41,880
Like, yeah.
And it's, it's a little bit that

1544
01:22:41,880 --> 01:22:43,760
idea that as soon as you start
to speak to yourself in the

1545
01:22:43,760 --> 01:22:46,280
third person, you're now no
longer in the nervous system

1546
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:47,760
response.
You're up in your awareness

1547
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:49,400
speaking to your nervous system,
Right.

1548
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:52,320
And so as soon as you can get
out of that response, all of a

1549
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:55,200
sudden you're holding some
safety for yourself in a way.

1550
01:22:56,360 --> 01:22:59,320
And I actually, I, there were a
couple of paragraphs where I

1551
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:01,760
cited that book in, in the 6th
chapter of the road Less

1552
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:03,200
Trigger.
They, they didn't make the final

1553
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:05,560
cut.
But, but that specifically,

1554
01:23:06,480 --> 01:23:12,000
yeah, but specifically that idea
of, of you are going to be OK,

1555
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:14,720
right.
OK.

1556
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:17,560
As soon as I say you are going
to be OK, it's like I'm speaking

1557
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:20,280
to the nervous part of me, the
triggered part of me, but I'm

1558
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:22,240
speaking from the untriggered
part of me.

1559
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:24,680
So all of a sudden I have a
little bit more objectivity.

1560
01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:25,880
So I think that's really
powerful.

1561
01:23:27,480 --> 01:23:36,560
Yeah, to your point.
Old things rearranged.

1562
01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:41,320
Into more effective sequences
can become a powerful new thing

1563
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:45,560
and and that is that is what I'm
trying to do with this book.

1564
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:48,280
We just got our first, like,
official Goodread review from an

1565
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:50,240
early reader.
Congratulations.

1566
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:52,160
Thank you.
It was so gratifying because she

1567
01:23:52,160 --> 01:23:54,240
said it's very exciting.
It's very exciting.

1568
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:56,120
It's the first one, you know,
out in the wild.

1569
01:23:56,280 --> 01:24:00,440
And it was so gratifying because
she said he takes an incredibly

1570
01:24:00,440 --> 01:24:04,000
complicated moment that feels so
overwhelming to most of us, and

1571
01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:08,040
he simplifies it down in a way
that is so easy to see your way

1572
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:09,960
through.
I'll give you an example.

1573
01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:12,720
The first step of the process
is, I call it sensing your

1574
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:16,880
conflict coming.
It's using an underutilized 6th

1575
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:19,360
power that we all have, sixth
sense that we all have.

1576
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:23,080
It's a superpower.
It's utilizing that sixth sense

1577
01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:25,880
to give yourself 80% more
warning that you're about to be

1578
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:30,160
triggered.
And, and the idea is learning to

1579
01:24:30,360 --> 01:24:34,840
tune into your particular bodily
signals when you're about to be

1580
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:36,280
triggered and your heart's about
to close.

1581
01:24:36,280 --> 01:24:40,320
There's data that shows that if
you wait to see what's happening

1582
01:24:40,320 --> 01:24:44,360
out here or how you're thinking
or how you're behaving, the

1583
01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:46,200
cat's already out of the bag.
You're already off to the.

1584
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:50,840
Races, conflicts already going,
your body will give you an 80%

1585
01:24:50,840 --> 01:24:53,480
earlier warning that that's
about to happen.

1586
01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:58,280
And in that 80% more space, you
realize that you actually have a

1587
01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:01,160
choice.
I can let my heart close, I can

1588
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:04,120
choose conflict and I can let
this thing go off the rails, or

1589
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:07,600
I can choose to keep my heart
open and I can choose connection

1590
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:10,720
and stay present in this moment.
And so right out of the gate,

1591
01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:14,640
this is not a wait, can you give
me, can you give me AI?

1592
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:17,280
Just I want to, I want to
highlight that as strong as I

1593
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:19,440
can.
Give me an actual example for a

1594
01:25:19,440 --> 01:25:22,320
case in point, just for anyone
listening to able to convert it

1595
01:25:22,320 --> 01:25:25,600
into like a real life scenario.
Yeah, happened to me last night.

1596
01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:29,440
One of my early earliest bodily
warning signs that my heart is

1597
01:25:29,440 --> 01:25:33,120
closing is just a sense of
urgency in my chest.

1598
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:34,400
That's the best way I can
describe it.

1599
01:25:34,480 --> 01:25:38,200
It's not anxiety yet, it's maybe
not even stress.

1600
01:25:38,200 --> 01:25:42,600
It's just this quickening, like,
right, Something big is at stake

1601
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:44,760
here and I need to go faster to
get it done.

1602
01:25:45,320 --> 01:25:48,520
That feeling is the feeling of
me.

1603
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:51,880
Being triggered with.
My wife 6 hours from now because

1604
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:55,200
if I don't attend to that
feeling regulated.

1605
01:25:56,080 --> 01:25:57,680
By the time.
I show up to dinner and I'm

1606
01:25:57,680 --> 01:26:01,080
moving it, you know?
So yesterday I caught myself

1607
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:04,280
around this time in the morning
yesterday and I went, whoa,

1608
01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:07,720
everything's moving really fast
in here.

1609
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:12,080
Like if you continue to
accelerate sort of mentally and

1610
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:14,880
neurologically at this pace, the
rest of the day, it's going to

1611
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:17,000
take almost nothing at dinner.
Someone's going to say

1612
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:18,320
something.
You're going to feel yourself,

1613
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:21,560
feel yourself triggered.
And so I know that for me,

1614
01:26:21,560 --> 01:26:24,640
urgency is, is part of my
fingerprint of, of a heart about

1615
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:27,800
to close.
What I will tell people is that

1616
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:30,880
you will almost always sense it
in your body, somewhere between

1617
01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:33,920
your waist and your temples.
Like basically no one has ever

1618
01:26:33,920 --> 01:26:35,720
said my heart closed and my toes
cramped.

1619
01:26:35,720 --> 01:26:38,960
Like, that's just not where you
feel that thing happening in the

1620
01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:42,840
body, you know, So it's like the
churning in the stomach, thick

1621
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:45,920
feeling in your sternum, like
right under your rib cage.

1622
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:49,680
It's that it's, I often say like
emergency doors slamming shut in

1623
01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:52,640
my chest, lump in the throat,
tightness in the shoulders,

1624
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:55,960
clenching jaw, thriving temples.
You know, waste of temples is

1625
01:26:55,960 --> 01:27:00,920
where you will get your earliest
warning sign that you're

1626
01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:04,880
starting to feel unsafe.
And something could could sort

1627
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:07,640
of flip that switch from
connection mode to connection

1628
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:11,120
protection mode any moment.
Yeah, I know for myself.

1629
01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:14,320
And maybe please tell me if I'm
giving a correct example or

1630
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:18,600
understanding this correctly.
I know that with my son, I try

1631
01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:22,560
very, very hard to be patient
and very hard to not get angry.

1632
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:26,960
I, I don't mind speaking in an
angry voice to emphasize a

1633
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:30,200
point, but the feeling of
getting angry and losing control

1634
01:27:30,200 --> 01:27:34,680
over my control is, is something
I really try to work very hard

1635
01:27:34,680 --> 01:27:36,640
not to.
And so if my kid is, and one

1636
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:40,600
thing that really gets me very,
very upset very quickly is

1637
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:44,560
unreasonable screaming, which is
a terrible trigger to have for

1638
01:27:44,560 --> 01:27:45,920
having two kids under the age of
three.

1639
01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:51,200
We can all relate to it.
So my kid is happy and he's

1640
01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:53,680
watching and he's watching TV
and he has a snack in his hand.

1641
01:27:53,680 --> 01:27:56,200
And then he just starts
screaming, you know, he just

1642
01:27:56,200 --> 01:28:00,360
starts crying uncontrollably.
And I feel a huge and I feel

1643
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:03,720
this a rush.
I feel a rush going straight up,

1644
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:06,160
like up my chest.
I feel like going up my gut into

1645
01:28:06,160 --> 01:28:10,800
my chest and, and I just want to
rush over and, and just make him

1646
01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:12,560
stop and just to shut him up,
right.

1647
01:28:12,800 --> 01:28:15,520
And, and I and I recognize that
rush now.

1648
01:28:15,520 --> 01:28:18,480
And, and, and I and I say to
myself, the second I feel that

1649
01:28:18,480 --> 01:28:22,200
rush, I say I, I, I, I, I force
a breath.

1650
01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:26,960
I force a breath and and I say
and I and I, I force a pause and

1651
01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:30,720
say whatever you're about to do,
you can act angry, don't be

1652
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:32,720
angry, whatever you and I think
that to myself.

1653
01:28:32,840 --> 01:28:34,200
It's a thought that goes through
my head.

1654
01:28:34,600 --> 01:28:36,960
You could speak angry.
Don't be angry.

1655
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:40,000
And so good.
I just want to and I want to.

1656
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:42,040
Make sure is that.
Is that the kind of moment that

1657
01:28:42,040 --> 01:28:44,200
you're trying to explain that
you're trying to capture?

1658
01:28:44,440 --> 01:28:47,600
Yes, it is.
And and that it's such a great

1659
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:50,360
example for a few reasons.
Number one, it's with your kids.

1660
01:28:50,880 --> 01:28:54,760
The principles in this book are
applicable to spouses, kids,

1661
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:59,520
siblings, stranger on the road,
you know, clerk at the store,

1662
01:28:59,880 --> 01:29:01,760
anywhere, anywhere that you can
be triggered.

1663
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:05,760
So #1 #2 I loved your
distinction between anger in

1664
01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:07,720
control and anger out of
control, Right?

1665
01:29:08,320 --> 01:29:10,160
I often said it with my kids
when they were younger.

1666
01:29:10,160 --> 01:29:12,640
Do you want me to wake you up?
That was like me saying like,

1667
01:29:12,640 --> 01:29:14,720
I'll raise my voice.
I would prefer not to.

1668
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:18,840
I was in control.
Triggered is I'm, I'm acting

1669
01:29:18,840 --> 01:29:21,160
angry and it's it doesn't feel
like it was my choice.

1670
01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:24,280
I feel like it feels to me,
yeah, it's a reaction.

1671
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:29,000
So I often say a reaction is a
failure of self regulation.

1672
01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:31,880
A response is the fruit of self
regulation, Right.

1673
01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:36,000
And So what you just illustrated
is literally the first three

1674
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:39,320
steps in that first part of the
process, sensing your conflict

1675
01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:42,720
coming, using your body.
You feel the whooshing upward of

1676
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:46,520
that so fast too.
It's so fast, so crazy.

1677
01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:50,000
You, you disrupted what I'd call
your defensive response, which

1678
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:52,840
in the book we talk about the
nine core defensive reactions

1679
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:56,440
when your nervous system
triggers and you just one that

1680
01:29:56,600 --> 01:30:00,080
is tempting to use with kids is
dominating going to control the

1681
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:01,440
situation.
To make this.

1682
01:30:01,440 --> 01:30:02,880
Feeling in here?
Go away.

1683
01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:05,400
Yeah.
And that again, that's the

1684
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:07,760
that's the temptation is I'm
going to try to control what's

1685
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:10,360
happening out here to make it
feel better in here.

1686
01:30:10,360 --> 01:30:14,560
I often say to people like we
had our our furnace went out

1687
01:30:14,560 --> 01:30:16,760
this summer during a heat wave
in Northern Illinois.

1688
01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:22,560
And and if if I approach that
furnace the way that we approach

1689
01:30:22,560 --> 01:30:24,920
most of our relationships, what
I would have done the rest of

1690
01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:28,320
the week is figure out how I
could make it cooler outside so

1691
01:30:28,320 --> 01:30:29,960
the house would stay cooler.
Yeah.

1692
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:33,560
Like your people are the
weather, their behavior, their

1693
01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:35,160
thoughts, their feelings, it's
the weather.

1694
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:37,240
But we spend so much time trying
to control them.

1695
01:30:37,240 --> 01:30:39,360
So it's such a great example.
Awesome.

1696
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:43,600
Just go to the Control Board and
and get it cooled down in here.

1697
01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:46,840
Fix the fix the Control Board
and then you won't have to worry

1698
01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:48,560
about the weather outside.
So you did it.

1699
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:51,240
You sensed your conflict coming.
You disrupted your

1700
01:30:51,240 --> 01:30:53,240
defensiveness.
That's step #2 you didn't try to

1701
01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:54,920
dominate him to make it feel
better in here.

1702
01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:57,440
And they took responsibility for
your own self regulation,

1703
01:30:57,440 --> 01:30:59,640
cultivating calmness before
connectedness.

1704
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:02,760
As we say, you took that breath
to get your nervous system

1705
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:05,600
neutral again.
You just went right.

1706
01:31:05,600 --> 01:31:07,160
You just took yourself right
through the process.

1707
01:31:07,160 --> 01:31:11,520
All you got to do is you do that
the rest of my life around me.

1708
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:15,800
Well, what you have to do is you
have to do it every time you're

1709
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:18,440
triggered.
Like that has to be the starting

1710
01:31:18,440 --> 01:31:21,920
point because what's happening
is that, and this makes sense

1711
01:31:21,920 --> 01:31:25,640
with a crying kid, right?
Your nervous system is wired for

1712
01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:31,480
alarm when a kid cries, right?
It's it's wired to.

1713
01:31:31,520 --> 01:31:34,080
Assume that.
If they cry like that, they're

1714
01:31:34,080 --> 01:31:36,360
in mortal danger and you need to
react.

1715
01:31:37,160 --> 01:31:39,080
Now you're sitting in your
living room so you know it's not

1716
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:41,080
true, which is why you called it
unreasonably crying.

1717
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:46,240
And and that's fine, but your
reaction to them is now to treat

1718
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:49,320
them like the danger and that's
not going to work.

1719
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:52,560
So every time it happens, we
have to take ourselves through

1720
01:31:52,560 --> 01:31:55,200
that sequence, make sure we're
calm before we start trying to

1721
01:31:55,200 --> 01:31:57,360
connect, regulate before you
relate.

1722
01:31:58,280 --> 01:31:59,360
I love it.
It's awesome.

1723
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:03,160
Doctor Kennedy, where can people
find you or your post or your

1724
01:32:03,160 --> 01:32:04,680
information?
Yeah, yeah.

1725
01:32:04,720 --> 01:32:07,800
Well, right now, road less
triggered.com.

1726
01:32:08,280 --> 01:32:10,400
Awesome.
I put the I put the captions in

1727
01:32:10,400 --> 01:32:11,680
the I put that in the show, not
caption.

1728
01:32:12,160 --> 01:32:14,520
Awesome.
That's where you can go to find

1729
01:32:14,520 --> 01:32:17,560
out more about the book.
You can order the book there and

1730
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:20,520
then you can enter your order
number on that page and and

1731
01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:24,160
that'll get you access to $348
in pre-order bonuses.

1732
01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:25,600
That'll be good through the
release.

1733
01:32:26,280 --> 01:32:30,080
Those bonuses include you get to
download the 1st chapter right

1734
01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:32,840
away and I'm telling you like
it'll be like putting on a new

1735
01:32:32,840 --> 01:32:34,280
lens, you'll see the world
differently.

1736
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:37,400
By the end of the first chapter
you get a 90 minute master

1737
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:39,760
class.
I recorded with the guy who said

1738
01:32:40,400 --> 01:32:42,360
you can never get enough of what
almost works.

1739
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:45,320
Nice.
The guy recorded the 90 minute

1740
01:32:45,320 --> 01:32:47,840
master class with him, so you
can go through the whole process

1741
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:49,440
right away instead of having to
wait for the book.

1742
01:32:50,480 --> 01:32:53,240
And then if you want, you can
certainly join our launch team.

1743
01:32:53,240 --> 01:32:56,800
And it also grants you 6 months
free membership to the less

1744
01:32:56,800 --> 01:32:59,160
triggered tribe on Substack
where we get together once a

1745
01:32:59,160 --> 01:33:02,120
month to talk about these ideas
and grow together.

1746
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:04,680
So lots of good bonuses there.
I would love to have you join

1747
01:33:04,680 --> 01:33:05,800
us.
Awesome.

1748
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:08,080
All right, Doctor Kelly, thanks
so much for the time.

1749
01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:09,880
It's so nice speaking.
It's so nice getting to know you

1750
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:11,600
a little bit.
Great conversation.

1751
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:13,080
Hope to be in touch.
Take care, man.

1752
01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:14,000
I'll be back.
Bye.