Psychology Series 5: Chris Collins

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

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How old are you?
And you moved out to Florida?

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Chris, Welcome.
Thank you.

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Easiest way to start.
I I was 26 years old, 26 going

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on 18. 26 going on 18.
I feel like a lot of people

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today are like that, right?
You live in the age of delayed

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adolescence.
Yeah, and I tried my best to

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delay it as much as possible,
yeah.

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I think that there's like a
split between.

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I, I, I tried, I'm always trying
to find this line between, I

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call it like straddling the line
between responsibility and fun,

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you know, and like, it's such a
delicate slope, but like, I feel

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like a life well lived, like is,
has that perfect balance of

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like, listen, I know a time and
place to be responsible and I

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know a time and place to just
like enjoy, by the way, even

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while you're engaging your
responsibilities, you could like

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turn that into fun or enjoyable
events as long as they're not

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coming at the sacrifice of the
other.

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And I think that a lot of times
people have the hardest time

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balancing those two.
I can never remember this book,

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but I remember this part where
he talked about like if the

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United States was really
balanced, if you had the Statue

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of Liberty on one side, like
somewhere in California, you

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need the the Statue of
Responsibility.

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That's such a good line.
Right, because liberty without

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responsibility is chaos, and
responsibility without some

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liberty is really boring.
Yeah.

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So I it's crushing.
Crushing.

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Totally, totally.
So you moved down to Florida

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26th going on 18.
Why'd you move down?

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I I moved down here, it was
November of 2014 to get sober.

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To get sober.
To get sober I I had been in and

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out of treatment centers through
most of my like early 20s and

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teens.
Starting teens.

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Yeah, I was 1415 years old when
I went to my first treatment

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center and I had been trying to
get sober for a really long

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time.
And I just being around the same

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people, places and things being
around Philadelphia, I would

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get, I had a year once I would
get like 30 days or 90 days, but

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something inevitably would
happen or I'd run into that

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person at the store and then I
was off again.

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Yeah.
And it's, it's interesting.

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I actually had this conversation
with my my mom and dad when I

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had three years sober.
They came and gave me my

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medallion.
That's beautiful.

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It was.
It was, it was a really

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beautiful night.
My mom told me, she said when

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you went down there, we knew
that you could die.

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And she's like, that's not what
we ever wanted.

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But we we knew it wasn't up to
us anymore.

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And I think as, like, I had hit
my bottom spiritually,

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emotionally, physically, all the
stuff, they had reached their

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bottom as enablers at the same
time.

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Yeah.
And I think that they finally

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let go.
And yeah.

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And then I finally stood up and
grew up.

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Yeah.
It's really beautiful.

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You think it happened that
necessity?

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You think it was just changing
of your settings?

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Stuff like that?
I think it was both.

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I think, yeah, I well, there was
a lot of it was a perfect storm

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of things.
It was my parents had stop

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enabling me like, because I
remember I called them.

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I had 90 days and I was like,
I'm ready to come home.

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And my mom sent me a list of
homeless shelters like West Palm

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Beach.
And she's like, OK, you're not

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coming back.
Like, thank God she did that.

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At the time, I did not feel that
way.

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I was really angry, but I'd
imagine so.

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I think it was, it was that I
had started working with

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therapist who had finally talked
about like the big T word, which

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no one had ever really talked to
me about that before, which was

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trauma.
I think that made all the

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difference.
I had also made a group of

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friends who were also sober and
became my family and, and just

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that like beautiful connection.
And that was a huge part of it.

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And, and honesty, I think for a
long time, like I just was

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hiding from everything and
everyone.

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So yeah, it was this really
beautiful storm of events.

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I finally had like really good
treatment coupled with parents

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who were done and a group of
friends and a new place where I

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was away from all my triggers
and to even to like, I think

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geographical locations to run
away from your problems doesn't

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work, but I think geographical
relocations for recovery does

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because I even remember going
home at six months a year and

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like the dark cloud would come
over me.

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Again, I could imagine.
And then I would come back to

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South Florida and I was like, I
can like breathe.

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So my body would remember, which
is really interesting.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
I've had, I've had very similar

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experiences for sure.
And I've also, it's funny that

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you say that you can't run away
from like yourself, your state.

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I guess I used to, I used to go
before while I was still trying

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to figure out what I was trying
to do with myself before I was

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married, before I had any kind
of direction in terms of work, a

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creative outlet or anything like
that.

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I knew what I, I knew I wanted
to find that.

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I just didn't know how to.
And a lot of times it manifested

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by me just feel like I had to
just break out and go somewhere

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and I would just just and I
would just go for cross country

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drives New York to Florida, NY
to Washington, excuse me and,

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and sometimes it would be
beneficial.

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I remember one time I did it and
I was driving down to Florida

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and like I was over the, I was
driving to the Carolinas and

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like, I was driving into like a,
like a tornado or a tropical

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storm or something like that.
And I just felt like the storm

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inside and outside matching up.
And I was like, I am not doing

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this out of a healthy place.
I'm running away from something

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and I don't even know what.
I'm like, I, I remember the,

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the, the, the realization washed
over me like so succinctly.

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And I was like, I don't know, I,
I'm just trying to run to get

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out of my own skin.
And I don't, and that's not,

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this isn't the way to do it.
You know, this isn't the way to

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solve my problem.
You know, sometimes getting away

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isn't, you know, there's,
there's something to accomplish

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by that.
But that particular problem I

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was like, this isn't going to
solve.

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And I ended up writing about
that.

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I'll show you the poem I wrote
after.

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Yeah.
It's called Driving Into a

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Hurricane.
And it's, yeah, I have, I have

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ambitions to turn into a song,
but I, I'm not creative enough

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yet with my guitar to, to do
that.

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So, so I wanted it.
So I want this episode for this

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particular podcast to be
something that is informative,

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educational and relevant to
anyone that's potentially

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listening to it.
Because I think that I the topic

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of porn addiction and sex
addiction is taboo, even though

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very taboo for a lot of people,
even though it's an issue that

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everyone, everyone struggles
with.

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And I want to hear about your
experience.

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And I kind of want to, you know,
you could you kind of start by

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telling me how you got into this
space and you know what you see

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and we can kind of direct the
conversation from there.

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That's.
Yeah, absolutely.

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So I, I came down here, I got
sober and I got my year of

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sobriety, I mean.
How hard is that?

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Honestly, like, I mean, it was
hard looking back and I can, I

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can say this in retrospect,
like, but it just seemed like

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things just aligned perfectly.
So at the same time it was kind

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of easy.
I mean, I think emotionally it

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was really hard, but I didn't
even have the words to like or

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they understanding until years
later in like, retrospect.

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Yeah, yeah.
That first year was like just

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stay sober and like get a pack
of cigarettes and a nice coffee

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like every day did.
Your, your, your, your new group

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of friends.
Were they instrumental in that?

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Yeah.
Like would you you guys would

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call each other and support each
other if you felt you were

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having a hard time and?
All the time.

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And what would?
What were some, what were some,

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I guess, words of condolence or
support that worked and what are

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some words, what are the ideas
that don't work that for you at

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least?
Especially during that first

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year, I think, and I've, I've
learned this lesson over the

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last 10 years, is that the
people who helped the most are

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the ones who were just willing
to sit with you in it.

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And I, I had found people who
like didn't try to fix me,

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didn't try to change me how I
felt wasn't wrong.

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It was just, it just was what it
was and, and really taught me

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how to do that as well, which
made all the difference.

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And it's, you know, especially
down here in South Florida, it's

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you can't throw a rock without
hitting a treatment center.

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Halfway house.
Yeah.

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And we just, we're kind of all
in the same boat.

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And I, I'd say this all the
time.

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Like, I remember the halfway
house that I lived in, I found a

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group of men that I didn't know
I needed, which made all the

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difference, you know?
So yeah, I think people's

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willingness to just sit with you
in it and not try to change you

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or what's going on because you
can't.

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It's just you have to kind of go
through it.

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Yeah.
So you have to so you think

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being understood or being, you
know, like just someone sharing

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in like being able to express
that you're having a hard time

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with someone and someone just
being listening, you know, just

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receiving end.
Absolutely.

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And I think it's really hard to
like develop that as a skill

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because we want to like we want
to fix it.

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We want.
I remember I heard someone talk

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about fixing bias.
Like, you'll listen to someone's

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problem for 40 seconds and you
already have the plan how

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they're going to get out of it,
not realizing that.

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Like, it's like you needed
another 10 minutes to really

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understand what was going on.
And then also that they didn't

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really want you to fix it.
They just wanted you to know,

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yeah, you know, and that is
that's such a powerful tool for

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connection.
Yeah, yeah, it's something I

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struggle with, by the way,
'cause I get so excited about

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ideas and conversation that I
end up being like, Oh my

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goodness, you know, and I got
it's, it's hard for me, but I'm

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working on it.
I.

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Like, I have to bite my tongue
sometimes.

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And then I'll have like, friends
of mine who are just like, hey,

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like, I don't need a therapist
right now.

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Yeah, you could talk back to me.
But yeah, it's I think that was

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something that really changed
everything in the beginning.

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Gotcha.
So you're so you're sober?

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You're sober.
I started working in treatment.

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I I was a overnight tech at a
adolescent male facility.

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I did that for a while.
Then I got in.

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Then I went to the treatment
center.

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I worked at the treatment center
that I went to.

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Was that weird?
It was.

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It was like full circle, you
know, I'm really grateful that

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I, I got to work there.
I, I worked there for five

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years.
Wow.

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And I kind of like grew up
clinically there.

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There was phenomenal therapist
there at the time that just

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really taught me a lot of
things.

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I, I know.
And what I started to notice was

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that people would come in for
substance use and that they

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would put down the bottle and
they were picking up the phone

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or they would put down the
needle and they were picking up

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massage parlors.
And yeah, I started noticing

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that a lot.
Or, you know, you would hear

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friends who had, like, five
years sober who are suicidal

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and, like, can't stop going to
the Hard Rock, you know?

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So yeah, I started becoming
aware that, like, process

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addictions existed.
Can you?

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Explain what a process addiction
is.

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So basically it's, I, I look at
them, it's things outside of

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substance use.
It's the process of it, you

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know, So I, I look at like
gambling, the goal isn't to win

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or lose.
The goal is to keep playing.

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And it takes people some time to
kind of figure that out.

227
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In fact, I I was watching this
one thing and they were showing

228
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that it's kind of anti climatic
after you pull the lever.

229
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It's like everything leading up
to it.

230
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,360
It's driving to the Hard Rock,
it's fantasizing about buying my

231
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,440
mom a new house.
It's all of those kind of

232
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things.
So then when you actually do it,

233
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,640
it's the brains.
Like I want to go back to the

234
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:42,560
fantasy and everything that was
leading up to it.

235
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,680
Sex addiction, compulsive sexual
behaviours, pornography

236
00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:52,920
addiction, food is in there,
intulsive eating, things like

237
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,480
that.
There's some people who

238
00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:02,400
shopping, shopping 100%.
I need to get Amazon off my

239
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,920
phone.
It's.

240
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,480
Slow, I can imagine unlike that
with craft beer.

241
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,400
And there's there's an app that
I use called Tavor.

242
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,640
And this app was so dangerous.
And basically the way it works

243
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,960
is you put in your credit card
and and they would make a

244
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,440
compilation of the top brew like
micro breweries from around the

245
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,560
country that ordinarily you
wouldn't be able to access if I

246
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,080
live here.
And there's brewery in Wyoming

247
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:32,520
or Seattle or California and you
create your own crate and they

248
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,440
basically have a big warehouse
to get all the beer in from

249
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:35,760
these places.
And you could pick this

250
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,880
collection and then they, for A1
set price, they send you

251
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:44,040
everything, but you pay at the
time that you add it to your

252
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,840
cart, right.
So, for example, if there's a

253
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:55,440
can of an IPA that is, you know,
$6, I pay, I, I, I swipe, I want

254
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,520
it, I pay that $6 now and then
as to my car.

255
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,520
And I don't think about it later
because I've, you know, so it's,

256
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,120
it's, it's a very interesting,
you pay in small increments, but

257
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,800
then you get one big shipment,
you know, and one big kind of

258
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,920
dopamine release, you know.
And also this little dope of.

259
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,520
Being yeah, all along the way,
you know, and then, then there's

260
00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,120
the notification to push
notifications.

261
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,480
New one came out and I'm like,
and I looked at my credit card

262
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,360
bill a month.
I was like, this is what I spend

263
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,760
on beer.
This is, this is out of control.

264
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,960
So I had to delete the app.
I never looked back.

265
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,600
But I I really it's, it's, it's
slippery.

266
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,560
And there's no doubt in my mind
that the creators of that app

267
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,600
knew exactly what they were
doing with the reward system of

268
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:37,600
their brain.
So yeah.

269
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,120
Yeah, that just like a little
pieces along the way and then

270
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,200
when you get the big one.
Definitely, definitely.

271
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:44,280
Yeah.
So I'm sorry to interrupt you

272
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,160
though.
So, yeah, so continue.

273
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,480
So anyway, so you were saying
so, so process.

274
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,520
So process addiction is that
people are addicted to whatever

275
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,920
process it is and then getting
that result in the subsequent

276
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,840
hit, dopamine hit, I guess.
Yeah, and the, and the ones

277
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:05,320
along the way, you know, it's I,
I, I think about someone who's

278
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:10,000
struggling with sex addiction
that it's, it's going to the gas

279
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,960
station, it's taking money out
or going to your bank, taking

280
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,480
money out.
The drive.

281
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,760
The now I'm on the, the Internet
and I'm looking at reviews for

282
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,240
massage parlors and then I'm
pulling up to one.

283
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,960
It's, it's the whole thing
leading up to the very end.

284
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:34,720
And or it's the I'm jumping on a
dating app and I'm swiping and

285
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,800
texting for upwards of eight
hours and sometimes not even

286
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,680
meeting a human, like, because
their, their brain is more

287
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,680
interested in that 8 hours.
And then when you look at that

288
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,800
in retrospect, like I've worked
with people who are like, I was

289
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,880
doing that like 8 hours a day at
work, like at home, sitting at

290
00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,440
the table with my friends and
family.

291
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,720
I remember I had a professor
once who said like the, and he

292
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,640
was quoting somebody else.
The mistress lives in your

293
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,480
pocket.
Yeah, you know.

294
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,200
Scary.
Yeah, it's it is scary, but it's

295
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,079
in the brain can kind of just
disassociate like that and you

296
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:18,560
blink and hours have gone by.
And the same with pornography,

297
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:24,720
you know, it's that looking for
the perfect video and you start

298
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,640
at 9:00 PM and you say, well, I
have work at six, so I'm going

299
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,560
to bed at 11.
And then before you know it,

300
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,040
it's like 4 in the morning and
you can hear the birds.

301
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:34,080
Out.
Do you hear that a lot?

302
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,280
You hear stories about that a
lot.

303
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:36,840
All the time.
Really.

304
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:42,000
All the time that they start
going and like can't stop and

305
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,120
then are sometimes they're like,
OK, I'm going to chug a Red

306
00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:46,360
Bull.
No way.

307
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:48,800
Take a shower and I'm going to
go to work and I haven't slept.

308
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:55,040
Oh, man, absolutely.
So what is that?

309
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:57,120
What?
What?

310
00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:58,440
What?
What?

311
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:04,080
Because listen, I, I and I,
yeah, maybe cannot even pretend

312
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:05,680
to videos otherwise.
When I was in high school, I was

313
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,000
definitely addicted to the
point, you know, especially

314
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,600
because the first two years I
was in high school, I was in all

315
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,880
boys school and I just felt.
And there was no, and we could

316
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,360
talk about this too.
There was no conversation about

317
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:21,560
sexuality or what is going on or
what you're feeling.

318
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:28,000
You're like, I'm just like this,
like incredibly hormonal 131415

319
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,360
year old that feels a tremendous
sense of guilt every time this

320
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:35,840
happens and at the same time
can't pull myself away and

321
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,200
actually got to the point I was
I was I was mortally

322
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,560
embarrassed, but I'm so happy I
did it.

323
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,400
When I went to my mom and I told
her to put a block on my phone.

324
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,360
I was, I think I was 14 and I
was like, I didn't get I didn't

325
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:48,720
go into any more details.
I needed to.

326
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,080
I'm like mom, I'm like mom, I'm
looking at things that I don't

327
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,360
want to be looking at my phone.
Can you please just put a block

328
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:57,160
on it?
And I found ways like 6 months

329
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,080
or a year later to even get
around those blocks.

330
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,360
But just the fact that it was
there for me kind of help keep

331
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:06,720
me like anchor me down a little
bit to like have that sense of

332
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,600
like, even if you're going to
engage in this, like limited

333
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,360
guilt wrong, you know, and like,
and it was a struggle.

334
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:21,200
It struggles for legitimately
struggle probably four or five

335
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,160
years after that, you know, and
I don't think it's ever kicked

336
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:30,000
100%, but it's kicked 90%, you
know, 8090% or whatever it is.

337
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,000
But what there's so much that
goes into it.

338
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:35,680
You know, there's so much that
goes into it.

339
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,640
Do you want to you?
So what do you notice?

340
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,320
What do people describe when
they say you know when?

341
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,440
When they're just painting the
picture you just painted?

342
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,840
So it's if I have 12 different
clients in a room, like there's

343
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,600
12 different stories, OK.
And I, I really do look at like,

344
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:59,560
like whatever the behavior is,
whether it's porn, sex, that

345
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,720
that is the like the end of the
story.

346
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,440
I look at everything from an
attachment lens.

347
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:13,560
So how we we learn to connect
from zero to three, how we

348
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,640
connect with our caregivers.
Sometimes things can happen.

349
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,840
And I I think especially like in
today's day and age when.

350
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,360
You know, and I see this all the
time, like you see a baby, like

351
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:26,480
reaching for like mom or dad and
mom and dad are like looking at

352
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,160
a phone, you know?
And I, one of my favorite

353
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,080
writers, therapist Diane Paul
Heller, she talks about it and

354
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,440
how the number of securely
attached people has been going

355
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:45,760
down over the years.
And I think that we're going to

356
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,400
see that get worse because of
the screens and our relationship

357
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,840
with screens.
But it could be like my.

358
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:54,560
Attachment have to do with it
though, I'm sorry.

359
00:20:54,560 --> 00:21:01,320
Just with, with.
So let's say let's say that I I

360
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:06,320
develop an anxious attachment.
Which I definitely have, yeah.

361
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:07,880
OK.
I have my own, yes.

362
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,480
OK, so let's say I have anxious
attachment to my phone, which I

363
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:11,440
have, OK.
Yeah.

364
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:17,040
Well, and it's, there's a fear
of abandonment or there's a fear

365
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,880
of disconnection, right?
This, this kind of wounds that

366
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:24,120
was created.
And then let's say you go to

367
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:27,920
school and you've had some
events that kind of reinforce

368
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,960
that, right.
Like maybe the kids were mean to

369
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,960
me, maybe I was bullied, things
like that.

370
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,040
And then one day I turn on the
computer at a friend's house and

371
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,480
I see whatever it is in front of
me.

372
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,640
Yeah, the brain doesn't
differentiate between what is

373
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,320
real and what is imagined.
Like the brain thinks that those

374
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:49,720
are real people in the room.
OK.

375
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,200
And porn won't reject me.
Porn won't leave me, right?

376
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,240
You're the hero.
All the time, yeah.

377
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:04,480
And then I think of like, let's
say, let's say like you have

378
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,960
more of an avoidant attachment
and you've been really

379
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,520
struggling to connect with other
humans throughout your life.

380
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,840
And then you find like campsites
where you really, you get to

381
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,280
play a role and you get to be
that hero, right.

382
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,480
With these people.
It's.

383
00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:26,920
Yeah, it's, it makes sense when
you kind of line it all up like

384
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,720
that with each person that I
work with.

385
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:36,080
So generally filling a void.
Filling a void, but also doing

386
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,960
your best to connect.
And especially when I see it

387
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,840
become really addictive, it's I
think it becomes a form of

388
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:49,440
connection and intimacy that is
a lot easier and safer than

389
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,560
going on a date with a person
possibly getting rejected.

390
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,440
Sure.
And especially like, like how

391
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,320
you were sharing that growing up
and nobody kind of sitting down

392
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,280
with you and saying like, hey,
there's a lot of things going on

393
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,960
with your body right now, right.
And this is what all this stuff

394
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,320
is.
I don't think I, I've said this

395
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:13,920
to you last week.
I don't think I've ever had a

396
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,040
client who or somebody explained
to them what was happening with

397
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,080
their body and sex and all these
things.

398
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,920
And we all turn to the Internet.
Yeah.

399
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,360
Which is the least healthy place
to learn about what that is?

400
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,240
Exactly.
Right, right, right.

401
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:37,480
And I mean, have you ever heard
Scott Galloway talk about the

402
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,600
loneliness epidemic that's been
happening with men?

403
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,320
I mean, you know, I want to
actually ask you about your

404
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,920
experience in terms of men and
men versus female, men versus

405
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,000
women in terms of their
addiction and even maybe their

406
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,200
patterns or like the root causes
of like, you know, are there

407
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,760
certain things that men are more
inclined towards as opposed to

408
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,000
women?
Or are men trying to look for a

409
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,240
different thing than women are?
You know, I mean, I think that

410
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,840
and also by the way, like what
you said about the potential,

411
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,080
not rejection.
I feel like porn as a virtual

412
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:15,720
space as opposed to an in person
sexual addiction is 2 very

413
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,120
different forms of like, even
though they're both sexual,

414
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,240
they're both very different
manifestations of a way to kind

415
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,080
of get your high, I guess, or
get your, you know, yeah.

416
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,960
I, I, I agree.
Like, so connecting with someone

417
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,840
versus just watching a video.
Yeah, yeah.

418
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,120
Yeah, yeah.
Like you're having another human

419
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:37,000
being there and like, whether or
not like you're, you know,

420
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,080
whether you have a relationship
with them or not, or, you know,

421
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,480
to what extent you will in the
future or not.

422
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,120
Like there's another person here
right now that you're, that

423
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:47,440
you're with, you know, in an
intimate way as opposed to I'm

424
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,920
in my bathroom alone with a blue
screen, you know, and that's a

425
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,400
totally different world.
And I feel like 1 tends to,

426
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,520
like, I feel like the sitting
alone in the bathroom with the

427
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,560
blue screen tends to lend itself
towards guilt and shame far

428
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,640
more.
I don't know more, but I would

429
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,200
imagine I'd be more than if I
had like an interconnected

430
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,160
relationship, you know, like
something that's physical.

431
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:07,680
I don't know.
I mean, I, you know, I'm asking.

432
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,480
I'm just, I'm just spitballing.
Yeah.

433
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:16,040
Well, and I think of like, how
like that becomes part of it.

434
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:23,960
Like we can, we can eroticize
emotions in the sense that like,

435
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,400
you know, here I am in the
bathroom and I'm feeling guilt

436
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,160
and shame and I'm having, I'm
not having relational sex

437
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,480
because I'm with like, I'm
having some like a relationship

438
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,440
with a scream.
But the emotions of guilt and

439
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,840
shame that come up can sometimes
become part of the process.

440
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,840
Yeah.
And it's because it's happening

441
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,240
over and over again where like
that actually becomes

442
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,480
eroticized, right.
And then when I have relational

443
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,080
sex with like a partner or
something and like those don't

444
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,960
exist.
It's, it's like my, my brain and

445
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,200
my body kind of want to go back
to the thing that we've been.

446
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,000
Doing Oh interesting.
So you're associating some,

447
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,600
you're associating that
particular activity with the

448
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,960
emotions of guilt or private or
shame or, you know, isolation as

449
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:17,480
opposed to sharing and loving
and, you know, in connection.

450
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,520
Yeah, it's, I see that all the
time where like that becomes

451
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:27,240
sexualized and wanted at least,
like unconsciously and then

452
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,440
sometimes consciously.
And you kind of get into all

453
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,280
these other categories of like
power exchange and things like

454
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,400
that where people are just kind
of trying to recreate the thing

455
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,680
that got wired into the nasal
template.

456
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,440
Like I use this example a lot is
like, you know, sometimes people

457
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:51,880
can get caught masturbating when
they're, when they're young or

458
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,880
their parents explain sex in a
really shameful way and then

459
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,720
they find themselves exploring
sex in a really shameful way.

460
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,000
Right, because that's the ground
work that that was the

461
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,320
foundation that was that was
laid.

462
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,880
Yeah, absolutely.
And I, I think of, you know, if

463
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,520
my first, if my, I, I, I'm going
through puberty and my first

464
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,360
experiences of being sexual are
with screens.

465
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,760
How like, and I think of an
arousal template as like a, a

466
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,840
dark room.
All I'm doing is shining the

467
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,200
light on the corner, which is
screens and pornography, not

468
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,320
realizing there's this whole
other part of my sexuality and

469
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,400
I'm just reinforcing it over and
over and over again.

470
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,160
And it just becomes bigger and
bigger and bigger and escalates

471
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:43,800
and yeah, not realizing.
And I get people who are no

472
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:48,160
longer like even attracted to
real humans or relational sex

473
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,360
because it has taken a hold.
I hope that I I feel like I went

474
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:54,320
a lot of different.
Places No, no, that's OK Yeah,

475
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,120
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
I, I, I remember actually

476
00:27:57,120 --> 00:27:59,600
hearing for the first time in
high school about something like

477
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,760
that, where there's a guy that,
you know, was that spent so much

478
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,600
time watching porn that like,
and there was a girl in the

479
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,440
school that was known to be
very, very attractive.

480
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,040
And, you know, they ended up
trying, you know, hooking up or

481
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,080
whatever.
And like he just couldn't, he

482
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,280
couldn't did it, it didn't work,
you know, and, and, you know,

483
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,760
and that's when I was like, and
I heard about that.

484
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,840
And I think I was, I was either
junior or senior in high school

485
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:24,960
and I was like, This is why I'm
scared of that stuff.

486
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,000
You know, like, and I remember
it's striking me like, I don't

487
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,840
want that to be the case.
And also, I've noticed that

488
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:35,360
especially in high school, it
creates an unhealthy association

489
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:37,160
relationship with just women in
general.

490
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,400
You know, that like, you walk
around, you walk around school

491
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,720
and like every girl isn't just a
girl.

492
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,440
They become a potential for some
kind of manifestation

493
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,880
representation of some kind of
sick, unhealthy sexual fantasy

494
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,160
that is drawn up again based on
your relationship with the

495
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,320
screen.
That is no correlation to

496
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:57,840
reality.
Absolutely.

497
00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,120
Yeah, man.
And.

498
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,080
I cannot tell you how many times
like in couples work, we're like

499
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,880
those conversations needed to be
had of like, I am a human.

500
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,960
I am your wife or I am your
husband.

501
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,440
Yeah.
And I know that like you had

502
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,560
this expectation that our sex
life would match this thing that

503
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,480
is curated produce.
Seriously, people in it don't

504
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,080
even look like that in real
life.

505
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,520
And it is marathon Olympic style
sex.

506
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,480
Yeah.
And now here we are as like 2

507
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:37,240
humans who do not match that and
are falling short and that.

508
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,760
And it's like, you know, it's an
intimacy killer.

509
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,680
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's, it dehumanizes the

510
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,200
partner as because you're not
this thing that I've been

511
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,280
watching all this time.
And then I think it it like

512
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:58,120
moves people away from intimacy,
connection, being seen,

513
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,080
authenticity, all those things
which are vital in in that

514
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,240
process.
Do you want to continue down the

515
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,560
couple's road or do you want to
go back to men versus female in

516
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,600
terms of their we'll get to both
men and female, men and female.

517
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:12,960
Cool.
Talk to me.

518
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:21,560
Yeah, it's, it's interesting
because I, I've seen men and

519
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,400
women experience.
Do men have a higher tendency to

520
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,760
be just to porn as opposed to
sexual like physical encounters?

521
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,160
Do you notice that one is is
more likely than the other in

522
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,840
terms of genders?
I I'm speaking mostly just out

523
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,520
of my practice.
That's all you can do.

524
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,800
Well, and it's, I'm sure there's
like tons of research on this

525
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,760
and I, I, in fact, I know there
is, I just, I, I, that's all

526
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:47,760
right.
I don't have anything to bring

527
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,400
up for you.
I just know in my practice that

528
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:58,160
I I tend to see men more in the
sex and pornography addiction

529
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,360
and then I see women more in
like the love addiction.

530
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:08,960
The categories love addiction is
that is the but I also see them

531
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,600
it's in both genders.
A lot of work that like PM

532
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,960
Melody did, really explores
this.

533
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:23,520
It is born out of attachment.
You will have sometimes like an

534
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,480
obsession develop around another
human.

535
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,320
I keep going into these
relationships with the same type

536
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:38,920
of person and it is really toxic
and it is harmful to me.

537
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,680
I'm praying that they're going
to change.

538
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,000
It's it's interesting how it,
like it sets up in the brain.

539
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,560
Do you know how like slot
machines work?

540
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,760
In terms of.
What, Winning and losing?

541
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,520
No.
So if you with a slot machine,

542
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,200
if somebody like wins every five
tries, they're going to stop

543
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,760
playing because it's like no
longer exciting.

544
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,120
The win needs to be random.
Got you.

545
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,440
So you'll win on your 20th time
or your fifth time.

546
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,520
Yeah, it gets boring and people
will stop playing.

547
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,880
I think love addiction works the
same way as in like, my partner

548
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,120
is going to be so kind to me and
loving on a Tuesday night and

549
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,800
then I'm going to have three
weeks of like.

550
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,760
I see what you're saying.
And then they get and then and

551
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,560
then he comes home one night
with flowers and you're like,

552
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,400
this is the best thing ever.
Yes.

553
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,440
And he's like, or she is, yeah,
you know, doing the bare

554
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,040
minimum.
And then it's like weeks of like

555
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,240
awfulness.
And so you can see a pattern

556
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,520
like that develop sometimes.
That would be called the love

557
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,680
addiction.
I, I, I would put it in that

558
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,280
category.
I have, I've seen it work in

559
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,200
where people are, you know,
they're interested in, in

560
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:01,600
several partners and it's, it's
more for the like the emotional

561
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,360
and the romantic part or
they're, they've never actually

562
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:07,640
been single.
They kind of jump from

563
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,280
relationship to relationship.
Sure.

564
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,920
I see a lot of like anxious
attachment wounds that get

565
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,560
triggered in that.
It seems more emotional based,

566
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,240
like a more like in search of
like an emotional dope mean hit

567
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,080
as opposed to as opposed to, you
know, what porn would provide,

568
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,240
which would be just more like a
physical like getting it out,

569
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:30,800
just get it out there kind of
thing.

570
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:36,600
I also like to give you other
examples of it is like there can

571
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,560
be screens involved because it's
the I texted you 50 times today

572
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,840
and I just want you to text me
back.

573
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,200
And that's the like, please see
me, see me, see me, see me, see

574
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,480
me, see me.
Or I'm stalking your social

575
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,560
media and I'm, I'm downloading
these apps where I can look at

576
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,360
your social media without you
knowing I looked at it or people

577
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,320
who are putting like it, it.
There's a whole spectrum of it,

578
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,280
but it can be really, really
just as devastating as sex and

579
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,160
porn too.
I could imagine, right, because

580
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,719
it just completely unravels you.
Absolutely, yeah.

581
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,080
And you lose yourself and then
the the betraying myself over

582
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,520
and over and over, like for, to
get that dopamine hit of like,

583
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,960
OK, they're coming home with
flowers today, you know, or I

584
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,600
develop a fantasy that isn't
really true.

585
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,840
You know, there's, there's
another part of this limerence,

586
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,600
which is I develop feelings and
I I fall in love with a fantasy

587
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,600
and potential versus who the
person really is.

588
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,880
And that it's like unrequited
love.

589
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,159
It's not being returned.
And like I said, the brain

590
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:47,679
doesn't know the difference
between what's real and

591
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:49,520
imagined.
And if I spent all day

592
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,920
daydreaming about all these
beautiful magical qualities of a

593
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,840
partner, that doesn't really
exist.

594
00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:58,360
And I become addicted to that,
Right.

595
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,400
Yeah.
It's, it's, I remember someone

596
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:03,880
told me this.
I loved how they said it.

597
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,920
They said falling in love with
someone's potential is really

598
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,240
horrible because first of all,
it's a future version of them

599
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,640
that doesn't exist, correct?
And it's more about your value

600
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,560
system that you're placing on
them, correct?

601
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,520
So I see that a lot sometimes in
love addiction too, which is

602
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,480
like I'm assigning all these
magical qualities to somebody

603
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,320
and I'm falling in love with the
version in my head versus who

604
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,600
they actually are.
You don't think we all kind of

605
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,560
do that to different degrees, or
you think that there's just

606
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,320
healthier ways and unhealthier
ways to do that.

607
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,360
I think we do.
And I and I don't want to

608
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,360
pathologize that for everybody.
It's, you know, when it becomes

609
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,120
something else, like when it
goes to that next level.

610
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,920
Yeah.
And it's like, OK, I've had five

611
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,200
of the same relationships and
this feels really compulsive at

612
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,960
this time.
And I'm doing the same thing

613
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:58,320
over and over again where like I
am getting high off of fantasy

614
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,640
and not who this person actually
is, right?

615
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,560
Or I find myself like dating the
same kind of person over and

616
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,560
over and over again because I'm
recreating A traumatic thing

617
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,080
that happened before and now
it's become compulsive and this

618
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,440
person is not that great.
And I'm still I'm going back to

619
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,240
get that hit.
Yeah, if that makes.

620
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:17,680
Sense.
Yeah.

621
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,560
So what?
So what are some techniques that

622
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,080
you do to help these people if
you can?

623
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,640
So it's there's a lot, yeah.
I know it's a loaded.

624
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,120
Question yeah, you know, so I'm
an EMDR certified therapist.

625
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,400
I'm working, I'm in training
right now for somatic

626
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,880
experiencing and I love IFS and
I.

627
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,080
What's ifs?
Internal Family Systems.

628
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:49,400
OK, Schwartz It's parts work.
It's one session.

629
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,640
I might have somebody sitting
across from their addiction

630
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:54,800
having like a real conversation
with it.

631
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,920
Another session I might be
targeting traumatic memories

632
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:02,440
that play a role in this as
well.

633
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,200
There's also a really
interesting protocol in EMDR

634
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,360
that I, I've been playing around
to with especially porn

635
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:20,560
addiction, where you can kind of
desensitize the like somebody

636
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:26,320
who is experiencing like the
good aspects of what they're

637
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,560
doing.
And it's like, so sometimes with

638
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,960
the MDR, we look at it like, OK,
you're, you're desensitizing,

639
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,440
you know, in the body, all of
these things that come up with

640
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,680
negative memories.
But then like I look at my

641
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,640
addiction and we can kind of, we
can go.

642
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:50,520
It's pearls her, her she
developed a whole procedure for

643
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,280
doing it where you can go in and
and start to desensitize some of

644
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,760
the stuff around the addiction.
Meaning desensitize what is

645
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,160
attractive about the addiction
or gotcha so you can push

646
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:03,400
yourself away.
Is it?

647
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,320
Is it so it's kind of getting
yourself repulsed to buy or

648
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,040
desensitize to what it is that
you're?

649
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,440
Not repulsed, but like
desensitizing like the reactions

650
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,120
in the body interesting and like
the triggers that come around

651
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,280
with that.
I'm also, I'm somebody who does

652
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:26,040
a lot of work with attachment,
meaning like I, we have a

653
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,400
blueprint for what our insecure
attachment is and how that plays

654
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,920
out.
And it takes a while, but it's

655
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,360
developing that blueprint of
what more functional attachment

656
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,400
looks like.
You know, an example is like, if

657
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,840
I'm working with somebody who is
kind of more in the love

658
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:50,080
addiction area and they come in
and they're like, you know, I, I

659
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,120
don't think they're that
interested in me anymore.

660
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,960
And I want to like, you know,
text and call a million times

661
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,760
and confront them.
And I'm like, well, how do you

662
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,360
know that?
And like, let's really sit with

663
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,880
that.
And what you discover is like,

664
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,520
Hey, maybe this is more of your
perception versus like the facts

665
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,400
that you presented, you know, or
if I'm working with someone

666
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,000
who's like on the avoidance
spectrum and they're like, Hey,

667
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,640
I'm really overwhelmed and I got
the ick by this person and I'd

668
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,880
rather go watch porn because
that doesn't give me the ick and

669
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,280
it's safe.
I'm like, well, are they really

670
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,200
over?
Like is what they're doing like

671
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,920
grounds for that?
Or like, are you just having a

672
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,960
reaction to old ones, Right.
So it's kind of doing that work

673
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,520
too.
I also work with a 30 task

674
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,800
model. 30 you said 3030.
Task model which Karns

675
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,400
developed.
He had noticed that when he

676
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,640
worked with addicts, the ones
who had done all these tasks

677
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,160
stayed sober and had a great
life.

678
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:50,840
Cool.
The ones who didn't?

679
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:51,720
Really.
What is?

680
00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:54,760
What are some of them on there?
In the beginning it's it's

681
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,800
breaking through denial.
It's one of the reasons why I

682
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,960
love assessments so much.
So I'll sign somebody an

683
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,880
assessment.
And it's, we have a, the SDMI,

684
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,080
which is the sexual digital
media inventory, the SDI which

685
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,160
is the sexual dependency
inventory.

686
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,720
These paint this really
beautiful picture that we can't

687
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,000
argue anymore.
One of the things about

688
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,600
addiction is
compartmentalization, which is I

689
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,680
can act out on my addiction on a
Tuesday and like completely

690
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,680
disassociate it, like from it on
a Thursday.

691
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,720
It is when people who would sit
there and say I never want to do

692
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:38,160
this again, I have all the
motivation in the world and then

693
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,000
a week later they cannot recall
that.

694
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,800
They cannot recall that that
that regret.

695
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,920
Yeah, or that like I want this,
I can't pull up, you know, it's,

696
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,600
we call it like a built in
forgetter because the brain in

697
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,040
that reward system is going to
make us remember the 12 good

698
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,520
times and not the 50,000
horrific times.

699
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,560
So I think it's a really
wonderful tool to start breaking

700
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,640
through that denial.
There are aspects of it we're

701
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:10,000
like we're working through the
trauma, we're looking at the

702
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,960
arousal template and then the
really beautiful parts towards

703
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,240
the end.
We're like, we're working on

704
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:17,240
like, what is healthy dating
look like?

705
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,480
What is, What is healthy sex
look like?

706
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,320
What is, you know, what feels
healthy, what doesn't feel

707
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:27,840
healthy to me?
I remember someone said this to

708
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,840
me a long time ago, Like what is
a spiritual orgasm?

709
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,320
And that is when my my orgasm
aligns with my beliefs, my

710
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,600
values.
I'm not using it to

711
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,400
disassociate.
I'm not using it to get away

712
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,520
from my feelings.
It's not nothing.

713
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,840
It's a, it's a combination of
experiences, absolutely.

714
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:51,360
And that is my favorite part
about this work, is helping

715
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,520
people get to a place where they
then can have a really

716
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,680
beautiful, healthy sex life.
Yeah, whatever that looks like.

717
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How much of it is?

718
00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:05,400
And I know that this happens by
my own, like myself.

719
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,520
And I think that, you know, this
is actually for different vices

720
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,240
at different points of my life,
you know, but sometimes

721
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:14,920
something will just happen back.
I just need to go, like, smoke a

722
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,520
cigar.
I need to just go have a beer.

723
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,880
I need to go like, you know,
smoke a Jay or, you know, and

724
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,280
then a lot of times I will re
channel I'll I'll, I'll take,

725
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,240
I'll make the effort to re
channel my response to a

726
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:31,920
negative event into something a
little bit more healthier,

727
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:32,680
productive.
Right.

728
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,600
So, for example, I used to, I
used to, I started forcing

729
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,320
myself to wash dishes when I got
frustrated, you know, so like,

730
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,040
if I had like a bad argument
with someone instead of going

731
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,160
out, you know, instead of going
and taking two or three shots,

732
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,800
I, you know, which I didn't do,
I got, you know, on a regular

733
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,160
basis.
But like, you know, instead of

734
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,200
doing that, I go to the guy, you
know, like I'm having a

735
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,520
conversation.
I can't believe this guy's such

736
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,440
a douche.
I hate this guy, you know, And I

737
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,440
hang up the phone and this
customer sucks and I'm pissed

738
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,400
off at my boss or my dad or
whatever it is.

739
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,040
I hang up and I go to the sink.
I just watch every edition to

740
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,240
sink, you know, And I'm like,
OK, like, you know, like it

741
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:08,960
wasn't that bad.
You're fine, you know, but like,

742
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,560
at least that's a behavior that
I feel like I could kind of like

743
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,000
redirect my frustration towards
something that's a little

744
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,560
healthy.
Do you spend a lot of time

745
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,400
trying to redirect people's
associations from, you know,

746
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,840
like there?
I feel like part of what an

747
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,680
addiction is, is that there's
almost like a breakdown in your

748
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,280
day or in your schedule.
That is that's not that you

749
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,840
don't expect, but not foreseen.
And then you have to fall back

750
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,840
to something familiar or
comfortable that to respond to

751
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,280
that, unless I'm making that up.
But that's how I feel like I

752
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,400
experienced personally.
Well, and it's, it's looking at

753
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:48,560
that's such a that's I really
loved how you framed all that.

754
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:54,560
I'm gonna start washing dishes
when I get you could vacuum too.

755
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,400
There's a lot of things to that.
So one of the things that I do

756
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:07,160
in the sex, love and pornography
realm is we come up with this

757
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:08,480
thing called a three ring
circle.

758
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,480
And in the middle in this 3 ring
circle, it is a live document.

759
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:18,080
It changes what is red today
might be yellow tomorrow.

760
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,920
What is green today might be
might be yellow tomorrow.

761
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,880
And it's something that I, I am
constantly working with people

762
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,400
on and revising.
But red is essentially like

763
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,280
these are the behaviours that I
need to stay away from, like

764
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:35,480
looking at pornography, calling
escorts, like whatever the thing

765
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:40,400
it's are right, your yellow is
proceed with caution.

766
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,720
Like I have to have a plan right
now going to the gym.

767
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,280
It's it's not a red, but like it
could be because there's a lot

768
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,880
of, there's a lot of attractive
people, there's pheromones in

769
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,800
the air, right?
Like I've had people who are

770
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,200
like, you know what, I can only
go to a women's gym or I can

771
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,560
only go to a men's gym.
And right now a Coed gym is red

772
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,200
for me.
Yeah, absolutely.

773
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,560
Because like I go there and then
the process starts and then I'm

774
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,880
like back at home and I'm very
interesting.

775
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:11,520
Right, right, right.
I can't help myself.

776
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,440
So it's looking at being very
real with yourself.

777
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:16,840
In six months you might be like,
you know what?

778
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,960
I've really de sexualized the
gym and I feel really safe.

779
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,560
So gyms would be more into a
yellow or Green Zone.

780
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,760
It can move, right, right.
And then it's, you know, you're

781
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,960
two years in the sobriety and
you are going through a lot of

782
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,600
things.
That's a fascinating tactic.

783
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,280
That's a really, really cool
tactic.

784
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,680
I love the sound of that
actually.

785
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:38,680
Yeah, well, and let's say cuz.
Organized and it let's and, and,

786
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,640
and there's like different zones
where like you can like, at

787
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:46,360
least no proceed with caution,
you know, or like hey, yeah,

788
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,400
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You could really, really you

789
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:50,960
could plan around that.
Like, it's really, really

790
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,280
interesting. 100% and, and it
moves and I look at the Green

791
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,480
Zone as like these are things
that are really healthy.

792
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,280
These are things that support my
recovery.

793
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,720
I look at them in different
sections.

794
00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:04,480
Like you think of sex and food,
right?

795
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,800
They are.
They're very sensual addictions.

796
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:15,160
The way things look, smell here,
like all the sizzle, when these

797
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,680
are very sensual addictions, how
am I going to experience my

798
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,040
senses now in a healthy way?
Because I'm not just like, I

799
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,840
just gave up the thing that
hijacks my brain, you know?

800
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,480
And I've had clients who are
like, practicing mindful

801
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,040
mindfulness at the beach and
they're touching the sand and

802
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,760
like, they're smelling new
candles and like just really

803
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,640
getting into, yeah, I have these
God-given senses that like got

804
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,040
hijacked by this thing.
But there's so much in this

805
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,400
world that I want to experience
that's really safe.

806
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:47,520
You know, I'm going to go to
football games now and use my

807
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,400
site in a way that is really
exciting and fun.

808
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,560
And I'm with my friends.
You know, maybe I'll go to the

809
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,040
bathroom during the cheerleader
part.

810
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,040
But yeah.
Yeah.

811
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,640
And even, like, I that gym
example of it being becoming

812
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,480
green, you know, let's say you
go through a really traumatic

813
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,520
event, like a parent dies, and
all of a sudden you're like, you

814
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,480
know what?
I have to put this back into the

815
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,560
yellow because right now I have
all this stuff going on.

816
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,360
Interesting.
And that's a couple years in the

817
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:15,840
sobriety.
And I'm, I'm using that as like

818
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,080
a loose example.
Yes, it's it's an honest self

819
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:23,120
appraisal of where you're at and
knowing yourself that things

820
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,920
need to move and then having a
plan for when they do.

821
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,000
I think that one of the biggest
challenges in this particular

822
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:36,080
realm of addiction is honesty.
We wanted to talk about not only

823
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:37,960
honesty.
Can you define or at least tell

824
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,080
me what you think the difference
between shame and guilt?

825
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,960
And then why we have such a
hard, why you think, or why

826
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,520
based on your, you know, what
you've seen, We have, we have

827
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:50,560
such a hard time being honest
about this as opposed to

828
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:56,960
anything else, you know, because
like shame and guilt are

829
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,960
definitely enormous components
of it.

830
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,360
And I just, and I've had so many
times in my own life where it's

831
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,400
felt like it's built up and I
felt like I had to say

832
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,000
something.
And when I haven't, it's

833
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:08,960
terrible.
And when I have, it's like just

834
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:10,960
a massive release and just like
a break.

835
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:15,160
And like I got that off my chest
and the world didn't end then.

836
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,880
Like I could say that I was, I
was having a hard time with

837
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,560
this.
And like people understood.

838
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,680
Like, you know, I, I feel like
it's such an isolating.

839
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,320
And I think just because the
action itself is like so private

840
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,760
and so isolated that you feel
like you don't want to ever

841
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,000
express it.
You want to talk a little about

842
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:31,320
that?
Yeah.

843
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,840
Absolutely.
And I, I think that this is

844
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:35,720
something that addiction does
across the board.

845
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,600
It convinces not only the person
addicted, but the entire system

846
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,920
around them that you were the
only ones in the world that are

847
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:45,840
struggling with this.
And nobody can know.

848
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:48,920
Because if they do know, what
are they going to think of, you

849
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,760
know, I'm going to get rejected.
I'm going to be pushed out of a

850
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,720
group, right?
It's interesting that the same

851
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:57,800
part of your brain that lights
up if you break your leg is the

852
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,200
same part of your brain that
lights up if you are pushed out

853
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:02,880
of a group.
If you are really.

854
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,360
And it's like from an
evolutionary standpoint, it's we

855
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,400
needed to be part of a group in
order to survive.

856
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,600
So I think in some ways it can
be pro social, like guilt can be

857
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,800
very pro social.
Shame is not something I shame

858
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,400
gets people into the room with
me sometimes where it like it.

859
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,960
The guilt and shame from this
has built up so much that

860
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,520
they're like, I have to do
something right.

861
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,760
I also believe that if it's not
managed and and shame isn't

862
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:38,160
reduced eventually that these
things can build up until you

863
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,400
use again.
Because it'll like, if I feel

864
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,240
crappy enough, long enough, I'm
going to give myself permission

865
00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:46,360
to do what I know is going to
provide relief, even

866
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,120
temporarily, you know?
Yeah, succinctly.

867
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:54,120
But so and I, I take this from
like the work of Bren�� Brown,

868
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:59,120
like Gil is I've done something
bad and shame is I am bad.

869
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,680
And if you knew this thing about
me, you would know that I was

870
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:05,160
bad too, and you wouldn't want
to be around.

871
00:50:05,240 --> 00:50:06,600
Fascinating.
Yeah.

872
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,280
Fascinating.
So guilt is kind of what other

873
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,520
people think.
What would other people think if

874
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,720
I, if they knew I did this?
And shame is like I don't want

875
00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:16,040
anyone to know this really who I
am.

876
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,120
I would put both of those on
shame.

877
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:18,920
Oh, really?
Yeah.

878
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:20,280
And like, guilt too.
Of like so.

879
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,840
What guilt?
So like, you know, the, the

880
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,800
stereotypical example of guilt
is Jewish guilt.

881
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,400
You know, you know, you got
Jewish mothers and grandparents

882
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:29,840
and guilt and stuff like that.
How?

883
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:31,440
How do you define guilt like
that?

884
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:34,360
So I had Catholic guilt.
Yeah.

885
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:35,320
OK.
There you go.

886
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,320
So I'm sure, I'm sure it is that
way.

887
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:41,800
So do you still have it, you
think?

888
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,280
Yeah, I will always have that
ingrained in me.

889
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,640
I it's not, it doesn't run my
life anymore.

890
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,160
I'm trying.
To fight it, I try to fight it

891
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,440
so hard.
It's so hard to freaking fight.

892
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,880
And like the times you just when
you think you cleared the hump,

893
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,680
you know, you're like, oh, man,
it's still there, you know?

894
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:03,280
It's so I think naming things is
really important in this work

895
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,400
because there are so many like
you can get the same feeling for

896
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,440
so many different things like
guilt.

897
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,240
I'll break that down.
Like there's maximizing guilt,

898
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,400
which I think Jewish and
Catholic guilt come along in

899
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,600
that, which is I'm going to, I'm
going to beat myself up

900
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,080
consistently as a way to atone
for what I did.

901
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,720
And if I'm not beating myself
up, it's almost like what I did

902
00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:29,520
was OK.
Then there's minimizing guilt,

903
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,120
which is like, I feel really
guilty for what I did and I'm

904
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,160
going to like, I'm going to go
watch 12 hours of Netflix and

905
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,240
eat a bag of chips, or I'm going
to go drink or I'm going to go

906
00:51:38,240 --> 00:51:39,600
use or I'm going to go look at
porn.

907
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:40,840
And then I don't have to feel
it.

908
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,520
There's weapon.
Yeah, numbing it.

909
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,080
OK.
There's weaponized guilt, which

910
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:52,240
is fascinating and exists in a
lot of family systems, which is.

911
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,280
And that's where score keeping
comes along.

912
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,320
Like, hey, I'm going to remind
you of all the things I've ever

913
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,720
done for you.
Sometimes moms lovingly.

914
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,680
Do that.
Where it's like you're setting a

915
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,720
boundary with me, but I gave
birth to you.

916
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,240
Right.
So I think we're, we're taught

917
00:52:08,240 --> 00:52:10,240
that.
And it's also it's, it's a

918
00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:12,680
manipulation tactic where like
I'm gonna get you to change your

919
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:14,640
mind.
So I'll bring up not only all

920
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,880
the things I've ever done for
you, but all the things that you

921
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,200
messed up on in the last year.
That's why I don't take favors

922
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:23,040
from anyone unless I trust them.
Like if you're not, if you're

923
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,800
not a very, very close friend, I
will never, I'll never ask you

924
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,680
for anything.
You know, I'll never ask you how

925
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,000
do I look?
I'll never ask you what you

926
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,160
think it is.
I'll never ask you to, you know,

927
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,640
do you mind grab me a bag of ice
oil while you're while you're in

928
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,400
Publix, You know, like I will
never ask anythings I don't want

929
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,600
to hold over my head.
You know, I don't want that

930
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:45,320
being weaponized, like you said,
you know, it's such a yeah.

931
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,440
OK, so there's weapon.
Which shows that like you've had

932
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:50,080
that happen.
You know what's funny?

933
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,440
I actually don't know if I did.
I actually think so.

934
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:53,840
So it's interesting.
I spent a lot of time thinking

935
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,240
about this.
I think that the root of my of

936
00:52:56,240 --> 00:52:59,920
that particular type of guilt is
that I not guilt, but I guess

937
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:02,560
that particular type of
avoidance.

938
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,200
I don't want to like ask favors
and stuff is because I used to

939
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:12,280
depend on other people to to
tell me to tell me I'm good

940
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,480
enough to validate me.
And at a certain point I was so

941
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,200
sickened to myself how little
self esteem I had in myself and

942
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,600
how much I depend on other
people that I did the full 180

943
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:24,120
turn.
I'm like, I don't need anyone.

944
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,080
Like I'm only depending on
myself.

945
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,480
And then I'm trying to get back
and talk about like the

946
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:30,920
obviously the healthier place is
to be in the middle ground, you

947
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:34,000
know.
But yeah, I don't think I've

948
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:39,880
really, my parents both try
extremely, extremely hard to let

949
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:43,680
us beat us and, you know, do
what they do as parents because

950
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,080
they want to do it as parents
and not because it's an

951
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,000
exchange.
So I grew up with a pretty

952
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:54,000
healthy perspective attitude in
terms of that.

953
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,600
But I think I just saw it a lot
around a lot and I was like,

954
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,320
this is not something that.
I want to be a part of.

955
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:01,840
No, very far from me.
Very far from me.

956
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,680
Yeah, absolutely.
And I don't want to like put

957
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:08,480
that on moms.
Like I see dads do it.

958
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:10,680
Doesn't.
Yeah, but moms are

959
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:12,640
stereotypical.
Yeah, Example.

960
00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:19,640
And and then there's survivor
skill, which is very simply

961
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:24,160
like, I'm OK and you're not.
I saw that come up so many times

962
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,360
when I used to do a lot of work
with first responders and

963
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:30,680
veterans, just that like I'm OK
and they're not in the guilt

964
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:35,280
that comes along with that.
There's these other things that

965
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:39,880
feel like guilt and shame.
Humiliation can feel like that,

966
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,320
and embarrassment can feel like
that.

967
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,360
I've I've seen a lot where a
client will be like, yeah, I'm

968
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,400
feeling really embarrassed.
And then when we really dive

969
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,080
into it, it's like, no, it's
actually shame.

970
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:50,080
So.
What would be the difference?

971
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:51,200
What's embarrassed as opposed to
shame?

972
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:57,280
So embarrassment is like, I've
walked in here, I tripped and

973
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:58,560
fell.
We both laugh.

974
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:02,160
I know I'm not the only person
that's ever happened to pretty

975
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:06,320
quickly, yeah.
Shame is I walked in here, I

976
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,080
tripped, and I'm like, you're an
idiot, right?

977
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:13,280
And humiliation, as I walk in
here, I trip, I fall, you make

978
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:14,600
fun of me and there's an
audience.

979
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,160
And all of those can kind of
register the same way in the

980
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,320
body.
But all that different forms of

981
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,680
guilt.
And so naming things, I think is

982
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:26,600
like one of the most powerful
tools we have.

983
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,680
It's such an important technique
because it also creates.

984
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:33,840
I think words are so amazing
because they contain context to

985
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,120
them.
You know, you can use a word and

986
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:41,440
like, you can use one word and
everyone imagines a scene that

987
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,640
goes with it.
Like they got like, you could

988
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,440
say one word captures an entire,
you know, it could be minutes or

989
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,800
months or years of an experience
that are, like, boiled down into

990
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,480
one word.
And the more new ones to get

991
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,200
with them, the more specific we
could be.

992
00:55:56,240 --> 00:55:58,040
It's really, really cool.
Absolutely.

993
00:55:58,360 --> 00:55:59,840
Yeah.
I love language because because

994
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:03,160
of that, I observe a lot of that
like the roots worth like

995
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,160
impressed.
If you're impressed by someone,

996
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,080
it means they've literally
pressed themselves into you and

997
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,960
you are now and you are now
aware of that, you know, or

998
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,800
delighted is like you are now
feeling light and you know the

999
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:18,080
emphasis, the emphasis on the on
the root word of like light and

1000
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,960
or awesome or awesome.
Yes, be in awe of something

1001
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,640
correct Yeah, exactly.
There's yeah.

1002
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,560
When I've spoken to people like
you're awesome, I'm like, and

1003
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,720
not in like the, not in the lazy
way and like I am like in awe

1004
00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:35,280
of, in awe of what you've done.
You know, it's such a, it's such

1005
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:36,520
a more beautiful way of putting
it.

1006
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,200
I feel like, you know, even
though awesome is fun.

1007
00:56:39,720 --> 00:56:41,240
So I'm sorry to interrupt.
Yeah.

1008
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:46,720
So you have all these different
types of of guilt.

1009
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:48,280
Guilt, right?
Yeah.

1010
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:50,560
Yeah.
And then I think like what you

1011
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:55,040
mentioned, which is, you know,
the shame is trying to convince

1012
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,640
me that like I'm the only person
in the world who has this and I

1013
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:01,720
can't talk about it because if I
talk about it, then what are

1014
00:57:01,720 --> 00:57:03,240
people going to think?
All the stuff, right?

1015
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,920
The the fear of rejection, all
those things.

1016
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:11,560
And then I do talk about it and
the relief I feel when I'm met

1017
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,680
with like love and kindness.
That's why I love like 12 step

1018
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,960
Fellowship so much, because
they, they exist.

1019
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,240
And you can go in thinking that
you were the most horrible

1020
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,200
person in the world and then
there's a woman or a man sitting

1021
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:26,920
next to you and they're like,
yeah, I did the same thing,

1022
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:27,920
dude.
Like you're fine.

1023
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:33,720
And the relief that comes with
that, you know, I, I, I've had

1024
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,760
so many times in sessions where
someone comes in with a very

1025
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,680
specific compulsive behavior,
sexual behavior, and they think

1026
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,720
that they're the only person in
the world who has done that.

1027
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,600
And I'm like, hey, like, there
are a lot of other people who've

1028
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,080
struggled with this very
specific thing too.

1029
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,880
And it's such a relief.
And then when you're like, we

1030
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,000
jump into Google and you're
like, yeah, see, there's like

1031
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:56,400
this whole world out there.
Yeah.

1032
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:00,080
Yeah.
You know, so that starts to, to

1033
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,840
reduce the shame.
I also look at like, where's the

1034
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,800
shame coming from?
Is it, was it ever really mine

1035
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:11,120
to begin with?
Did I inherit it from society?

1036
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,680
Did I inherit it from my
parents?

1037
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,240
You know, I have a lot of shame
around sex.

1038
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,800
And then you start diving into
sexual history and then like a

1039
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:24,240
genogram of like the sexual
history and family members

1040
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:26,960
that's like, actually my
grandparents, my parents,

1041
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,240
they've all felt a lot of shame
around sex because of how, like,

1042
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,400
that's what they taught me.
How would you know that though?

1043
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:37,920
How did someone figure that out?
So it's what happened when you

1044
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,560
first talked about sex with a
parent, right?

1045
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:48,280
They yelled at me, Right?
And then when I got older and

1046
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,320
these topics were safer because
we were adults, they told me

1047
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:52,560
that their parents yelled at
them.

1048
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,080
Right.
And how this I see?

1049
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:56,480
Yeah.
It gets passed down.

1050
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:58,920
Yeah.
So it's a form of education and

1051
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:00,880
it's a bad form of education,
absolutely.

1052
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:04,520
And you, you begin to realize
like this shame that I have

1053
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:09,880
struggled with was never mine.
It was just given to each new

1054
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,240
generation.
Yeah, because that's what they

1055
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:14,320
thought was the best thing to
do.

1056
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:20,960
But even that is still a tall
hill to get over, you know, like

1057
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,360
you could, you know, there's one
thing I it's one thing to

1058
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:27,240
understand, you know, the root
of it.

1059
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,680
And there's another thing to
conquer the root of it, you

1060
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:31,600
know, and I feel like a lot of
times we give ourselves a

1061
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,920
license to because we understand
the root of something like, oh,

1062
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:36,920
now I understand myself and you
kind of keep on going.

1063
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,040
I've been doing, now that you
understand why you're doing what

1064
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:43,240
you're doing, you know, my dad,
you know, my dad didn't have a

1065
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,720
dad.
So, you know, he did XY and Z,

1066
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:49,160
you know, and so, and so now I'm
pissed off my I'm not going to

1067
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:50,760
do anything about it.
I just know that that's the root

1068
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:51,880
of it.
And that's why he's and that's

1069
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:53,440
why he's such a Dick to me, you
know, and you're like, well,

1070
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,600
that doesn't really help, you
know, get get you from point A

1071
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,360
to point B necessarily.
And that's when the work comes

1072
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,720
in.
And the work does and, and

1073
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,760
sometimes it's, you know,
building insight into it.

1074
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,000
And then also like another part
of EMDR, which I really love,

1075
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,880
like Part 1 is we're going to
desensitize traumatic memories

1076
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:18,680
in the body.
And Part 2 is like these

1077
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:24,360
negative beliefs or cognitions,
we weren't born with them, that

1078
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:25,840
they're usually attached to
memories.

1079
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,440
And Part 2 of EMDR is we want to
go in and we want to help

1080
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,400
adaptive information in the
brain kind of sink in.

1081
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,080
So like you ever had that
experience where like, I know

1082
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:37,920
I'm a good person cognitively,
but sometimes my body feels like

1083
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:39,000
I'm not good.
Enough all the time.

1084
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:43,480
I have watched EMDR connect the
brain and the body in a way

1085
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,280
where it's like people will look
at me after we're done

1086
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,120
reprocessing the memory.
Right before they would have

1087
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:51,320
told me that's not true, I am
not good enough.

1088
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:53,880
And then after the session,
they're looking at me and

1089
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,240
they're like, I can bring up
that memory now and know that

1090
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,360
I'm good enough.
Like it, it switches in the

1091
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,400
brain and the body.
So I think that there's, yes,

1092
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,400
there's a lot of work and
talking about it and having

1093
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:09,840
insight about it can be great.
And it's half the battle.

1094
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:11,480
We can't do anything if we don't
know about it.

1095
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,920
But there's also a lot of
interventions and different

1096
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:18,120
modalities that can kind of go
in and and really help that go

1097
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:20,800
along.
So it's not just cognitive, it's

1098
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,200
like, I feel that too.
Yeah, I wonder, I wonder how

1099
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,240
breath work would kind of help.
And the thing that the breath

1100
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:31,720
work can help open up those
neural, those neural connections

1101
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:33,560
that you can kind of help
reassociate.

1102
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:38,360
I wonder if breath work, you
know, to reassociate memories

1103
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,760
and stuff like that to
reassociate your experiences

1104
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:43,640
would be something beneficial to
implement.

1105
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:47,320
You know, because it's not only
because, I mean, what essential

1106
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,680
out of this is, is associating
with, you know, memory or

1107
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:52,400
activity.
You just said, you know, and so

1108
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,200
and part of the hardest part
with the hardest part of all

1109
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,160
this stuff is the rewiring,
right?

1110
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:00,480
That's the PTSD, that's the
trauma, that's the that's all

1111
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:04,080
this stuff is like you have all
these connections that are all

1112
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:06,840
starting from one place and
ending in another that are rude

1113
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:08,800
and unhealthiness.
But you could just kind of

1114
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:11,480
retrace that road, you know, the
road and make it, you know, have

1115
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:13,000
it lead somewhere else.
Absolutely.

1116
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,600
I'm not as knowledgeable as in
breath work as I I wish I was

1117
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:18,520
I'll.
Try it out.

1118
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:21,400
Have you ever tried it?
I have tried it, I know a couple

1119
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,800
really amazing practitioners.
It's something that I like.

1120
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:29,280
I I want to do more of in my in
my journey but I'm a huge fan

1121
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,200
and open to anything that will
help people rewire their nervous

1122
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:33,040
system.
I love that.

1123
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,760
Yeah.
And I, whatever that looks like.

1124
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:40,480
And I've had clients who've gone
to breath work practitioners and

1125
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:41,480
loved it.
Yeah.

1126
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:42,720
Thought it was amazing.
Yeah.

1127
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:47,280
So yeah, I I'm a huge fan of
anything that can help require

1128
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:47,840
us.
Cool.

1129
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:49,440
Yeah.
Do you want to take a bathroom

1130
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:50,840
break for two seconds before we
continue?

1131
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:52,320
I'm OK.
Do you need to?

1132
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:53,280
Yeah, I'm.
Going to take a two second

1133
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:55,480
break.
Yeah, that the other thing that

1134
01:02:55,480 --> 01:03:00,160
you mentioned we're back is the
other thing that we were talking

1135
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,880
about or that I want to bring up
before we talk about couples is

1136
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:05,760
your experience with different
age groups.

1137
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:10,560
And like, you know what, you
know, you know, what are I guess

1138
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:14,760
common themes, I guess would be
between like teenagers or kids

1139
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:19,560
that are just getting, you know,
exposed to this as opposed to

1140
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:22,840
young adults, as opposed to
like, you know, adults dwell

1141
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:24,560
into their marriages and
relationships and stuff like

1142
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:29,360
that.
And do you find that that the

1143
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:31,800
motivations, I guess are
different as as people go

1144
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:34,240
through different phases in life
or the way that it manifests is

1145
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:36,400
different as they go through
different phases in life?

1146
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:38,200
Like what have you?
What have you noticed from your

1147
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:43,240
practice?
SO1II generally like I don't

1148
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:47,200
work with people under 18 is.
That for a reason.

1149
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:52,520
Well, especially with like this
stuff, one of the things that

1150
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:57,160
they kind of really put into me
during when I was training to

1151
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:01,160
become AC stat was like, we
don't want to pathologize or

1152
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:05,720
like especially someone who's
going through learning about

1153
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:12,200
their sexuality, you know, it's
a lot of it is like normal

1154
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:16,600
exploration.
So it's a, it's an area of like

1155
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:20,160
we're especially under 18, It's
we don't want to over

1156
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:22,320
pathologize things because
they're still trying to figure

1157
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:25,640
it out.
I know people who do work with

1158
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:29,320
people under 18 and I think that
they are the most patient and

1159
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,920
amazing people in the world.
You have to be because imagine

1160
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:34,880
an 11 year old or a 12 year old
getting a hold of a smartphone

1161
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:36,920
for I think the average age that
people are starting to be

1162
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:40,440
exposed to porn is like.
Yeah, absolutely.

1163
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:45,840
And see this, I remember in one
of the trainings, I was Patrick

1164
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:49,960
Carnes was was leading it and he
was talking about how criteria

1165
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:54,120
for addiction is now being
developed for like preview

1166
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:58,240
Vessel, whereas before like we
have criteria for addiction for

1167
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,000
teenagers, for adults, things
like that.

1168
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:03,720
And I, I think I told you this,
I remember he said this and it

1169
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:07,000
blew my mind.
You know, we've had more mass

1170
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,960
shootings in the 21st century
than we've had in the entirety

1171
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,720
of the 20th century.
And they are almost exclusively

1172
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:16,160
done by children.
It's the sickest and saddest

1173
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:19,360
statistic I've heard in a very,
very, very long time.

1174
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,400
And it kind of wakes you up to
like never before have we seen

1175
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:25,760
this and it you.
Know you think it's the violence

1176
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:27,320
that we're exposed to at an
early age.

1177
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:32,160
You think it's the loneliness.
You think it's the wait, what do

1178
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:37,080
we like?
I know it's a packed question.

1179
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:40,440
I know that you've been trying
to answer like in one bit and

1180
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:42,400
not getting the whole picture
obviously will get you into

1181
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:43,720
fire.
I don't want to get into fire,

1182
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,040
you know, but like.
Yeah, it well, it's such a good

1183
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:48,800
question.
And I the truth is, I don't

1184
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:51,920
know, right?
Like, but like what comes up for

1185
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:55,200
me when I sit with it is never
before.

1186
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:57,960
Like we now have kids who do not
remember what life was like

1187
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:01,040
before screens.
Like we have humans on this

1188
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:05,680
planet who do not remember we
have secure attachment kind of

1189
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:11,800
steadily going down.
I saw this Johann Lahiri, his

1190
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,400
Ted talk, he cites a couple
things.

1191
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:18,640
He said the amount of floor
space.

1192
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,320
He was citing a study, the
amount of floor space that a

1193
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,240
person has in their home has
been steadily increasing since

1194
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:26,840
the 1950s.
And the amount of face to face

1195
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:29,600
connections that people have has
been steadily decreasing.

1196
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,560
So I look at it kind of from a
macro point of view of like

1197
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,680
there's so many different things
going on, right?

1198
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:41,600
Like growing up, like people
with knock up for you right now,

1199
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:43,840
sometimes someone calls me and
I'm like, yeah, why didn't you

1200
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:46,400
text first?
You know what I mean?

1201
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:51,760
So I think the way that we and
we are a social species that is

1202
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:54,080
neurologically wired for
connection.

1203
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:58,520
And I think for a lot of us,
like it's really hard nowadays

1204
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:02,160
and these things that were
supposed to be agents or

1205
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:05,800
vehicles of connection, I think
actually are taking us further

1206
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,520
away from each other.
I know it kind of scares me that

1207
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,040
Mark Zuckerberg is still
standing by it so strongly.

1208
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:12,800
Like, I've heard an interview
from him recently.

1209
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:16,480
I think he's of Theo Von.
And one of the things he just

1210
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:18,880
kept, like he's been saying the
same thing for.

1211
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,360
Like I've heard him speak about,
you know, a bunch of podcasts in

1212
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:24,720
the last 5-10 years and he's
been saying the same thing every

1213
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:26,480
time.
And he just keeps on demanding

1214
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:31,320
and, and insisting that like his
apps and his companies are used

1215
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:33,520
to connect people and that this
is like the way the future and

1216
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:34,960
this was healthiest and best for
people.

1217
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,600
And like, sure, you people used
to have a group of five friends

1218
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:39,520
and now they have 250 friends on
Facebook.

1219
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:42,800
You're like, that doesn't mean
that you have like friends, you

1220
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:44,800
know, doesn't mean that you're
getting what you need as a human

1221
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:47,200
being in terms of attachment, in
terms of relationships, you

1222
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:53,000
know, and, and it scares me that
he's going to he and everyone

1223
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:56,120
else that's developing all
these, you know, technologies

1224
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:00,160
are just marching forward on
that presumption that this is

1225
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:01,880
all good.
And so we're just going to keep

1226
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:06,720
on building on that foundation.
When I don't, I, I'm skeptical

1227
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,600
as to the initial hypothesis
even, you know, like I'm

1228
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:13,120
skeptical as to the fact that
that that is that, that that's a

1229
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:15,280
good, that's a valid substitute,
you know.

1230
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,640
My first thought with that is,
you know, Philip Morris told us

1231
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:21,200
along for a long time that
cigarettes are healthy for us.

1232
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:24,920
Yeah.
You know, and when your product

1233
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:28,680
is the people who are the eyes
of the people who are watching

1234
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:32,680
or like the like, you're not
using a product, you are the

1235
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:35,080
product, correct.
When it comes to Facebook, they

1236
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:38,439
are selling your eyes and your
gaze to advertisers.

1237
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:43,600
So of course it's like, yeah,
this is let's let's build this

1238
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:47,720
on the whole thing of connection
and, and really kind of sell

1239
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:48,680
that lie.
Yeah.

1240
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:50,920
You know, and and don't get me
wrong, I think that they're

1241
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,680
like, I've seen amazing things
where like people were reunited

1242
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:57,080
through social media and all
those things.

1243
01:08:57,080 --> 01:09:00,720
But, you know, that's not why
people come to therapy.

1244
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:05,560
You know, people come to therapy
because they're like, hey, I'm

1245
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:09,040
comparing myself to all these
curated beautiful pictures.

1246
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:11,600
Yeah, of other people's lives
that aren't even real.

1247
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:15,160
Yeah.
And I feel less than, you know,

1248
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:17,720
and I, yeah, I have all this
social media and I have all

1249
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:22,120
these friends and followers, but
I'm profoundly lonely in my

1250
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:25,160
life.
Or I use social media and I'll

1251
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:28,560
be vulnerable on it.
And I'll tell people all of my

1252
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:30,279
like horrific stuff that's going
on.

1253
01:09:30,279 --> 01:09:32,600
And like to me that looks more
like a drive by shooting.

1254
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:36,080
Like that's not vulnerability.
That's like, let me dump and get

1255
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:39,880
some likes because like that
real vulnerability is like 2

1256
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:45,880
humans sitting together,
connecting, responding mirror

1257
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:49,120
neurons going off, like all the
things that you know, and that

1258
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,399
can happen through screen and
zooms as as well.

1259
01:09:51,399 --> 01:09:56,880
But yeah, I think it's, it's
this weird substitute that

1260
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:00,440
people are using and and I think
COVID is like a really good

1261
01:10:00,440 --> 01:10:04,720
example of why connection and
being around each other is so

1262
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:07,920
important because 2020 like the
world got weird.

1263
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:11,560
It got.
Really weird.

1264
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:12,920
The world's got, the world's
got.

1265
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:16,000
And I'm grateful for these
platforms, right?

1266
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,360
Because they, I think they did
connect us in a way.

1267
01:10:19,440 --> 01:10:23,080
But at the same time, it's like
it's a perfect case study of

1268
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:25,000
what happens when we're not
around each other.

1269
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:28,240
Substance use went through the
roof, depression went through

1270
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,240
the roof.
It was a completed suicide went

1271
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:33,920
through the roof.
You know, I, there wasn't a

1272
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:38,040
therapist at that time that I
knew who wasn't full, like

1273
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:42,920
completely full their practice.
And yeah, it's.

1274
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:46,360
I hope that answers that.
It does, it does, it does, it

1275
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:48,440
does.
So, so back to the so, so you,

1276
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:50,040
you typically don't treat people
young.

1277
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:53,800
So let's say 18 to to adulthood
or even later, you know, let's

1278
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:56,400
say more mature adults, you
know, older adults.

1279
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,000
What do you are, are, are there
things in common?

1280
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:03,560
Like are there underlying
consistencies in terms of the

1281
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:05,760
addiction?
Are they kind of based on like

1282
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:08,160
what phase in life are you in?
Like how does that, how does

1283
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:11,880
that work that you've seen?
And once again, this is more for

1284
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:15,280
my practice and not like
statistics and research.

1285
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:23,320
I find that my men and women who
are in their 20s, it is a lot

1286
01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:26,920
more of pornography addiction.
Although I have people later in

1287
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:31,000
life who have it too that like
the way they experience sex is

1288
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:33,480
not relational.
It is it is very much through a

1289
01:11:33,480 --> 01:11:38,120
screen and then some of the
older clients that I have, I see

1290
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:42,760
that more of like the classic
sex addiction of like I'm I'm

1291
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:45,520
using escorts or infidelity or
do you?

1292
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:47,560
Think it's because of what they
grew up with?

1293
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:49,040
Do you think it's just like it's
just different?

1294
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:50,280
Like culture.
Yeah.

1295
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:55,400
Culture, preference,
accessibility, you know, like I,

1296
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:58,440
I'm working with someone who's,
you know, later in life and

1297
01:11:58,440 --> 01:12:00,840
they're like, yeah, when I
looked at porn, it was like the

1298
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:03,200
Playboy that you stole from the
store down the street.

1299
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:06,680
Yeah, And it was this, like,
physical thing, you know?

1300
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:09,440
And then you talk to someone
who's like 22 and they're like,

1301
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:13,120
I have this magical box in my
pocket that shows.

1302
01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:14,640
Anything.
Anything.

1303
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:17,760
Any possible thing that I can
think of, What's it's like?

1304
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:21,320
Roll something, if you can think
about it, Porn's already made

1305
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:21,880
it.
Yeah, it's.

1306
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:25,640
The most creative industry out
there, seriously, Hollywood,

1307
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:28,120
There's no there's no big
studios that are turning down

1308
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:30,120
any scripts or any projects or
anything like that.

1309
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:32,000
They just make everything.
Everything.

1310
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:37,240
Anything you can think of?
So I, I see that that vast

1311
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:41,080
difference.
I will say a lot of my my older,

1312
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:44,400
I don't want to call them older,
but people like 30s and above

1313
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:50,040
usually come into treatment
because of like infidelity.

1314
01:12:51,440 --> 01:12:53,080
And they got caught or because
they chose.

1315
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:56,920
There was discoveries sometimes
because they chose to, but a lot

1316
01:12:56,920 --> 01:13:00,480
of time, like there's like this
thing that happened, a discovery

1317
01:13:00,480 --> 01:13:04,720
getting caught, which for a lot
of people like can sometimes be

1318
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:07,080
a relief.
Like I can finally like.

1319
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:08,640
Stop.
You want, you almost want to get

1320
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:09,160
caught.
Yeah.

1321
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:15,000
Whereas like my younger clients
are like, hey, I'm getting older

1322
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:18,720
and it's, I'm really struggling
to find a partner.

1323
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:23,600
And, you know, right now my
partner is my screen, you know,

1324
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:25,680
so I see like that difference a
lot.

1325
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,640
And yeah.
And then I also work a lot with

1326
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:34,600
like betrayed partners.
Those are people that have been

1327
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:38,400
cheated on.
And that can look that can

1328
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:42,960
because my my partner never
cheated on me with a person but

1329
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:44,960
has spent hours a day looking at
pornography.

1330
01:13:45,440 --> 01:13:47,080
So I want to, I want to talk
about that.

1331
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:49,120
I literally wrote cheating
immorality right here.

1332
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:52,160
How is that defined?
Let's yeah, let's talk about

1333
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:54,160
that.
What do you, what do you think

1334
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:57,400
personally?
And then you could tell me, you

1335
01:13:57,400 --> 01:13:59,840
know, clinically or personally,
personally, what you think.

1336
01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:01,600
And then yeah, because I'm
curious what you think about

1337
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:02,880
this.
Do you think that someone

1338
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:07,880
watching is watching porn is a
level of cheating?

1339
01:14:09,480 --> 01:14:13,320
Like let's say cheating is you
have a scale from one to 10 you

1340
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:18,360
know, and you have like kids
would be a 2A4 and you know sex

1341
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:22,280
is A10 and a whole life together
is A10 and say maybe you know

1342
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:26,760
sex is A7 or an 8.
Would porn be like a 3A4?

1343
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:28,240
Is that considered even
cheating?

1344
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:31,400
Like what do you think?
It's I love that scale because

1345
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:34,400
it's like like am IA little bit
cheating.

1346
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:35,480
Yeah, because it's not a bit
cheating.

1347
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:36,520
It's not.
It's not.

1348
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:39,760
People don't look at things like
they're yes or no.

1349
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:43,520
They're not.
What's the word for it, 01?

1350
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:46,520
It's not, it's not one or the
other.

1351
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:49,160
I feel like everything, all this
stuff is a scale, especially

1352
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:51,000
when it comes to subjective
relationships, right?

1353
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:52,000
Like everyone.
Everyone's really.

1354
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:55,000
So what do you think?
If I it's, it's hard for me to

1355
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:57,960
answer what it is.
For me personally, that's a

1356
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:02,800
vulnerable thing to answer.
Sure, if I have 10 couples in a

1357
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:04,920
room, I have 10 different
definitions of it.

1358
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:07,520
Like one couple might like say,
porn's a zero.

1359
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:10,360
Like, that doesn't bother me.
But another couple is like, you

1360
01:15:10,360 --> 01:15:12,720
know what porn's A10 because
they know that when we're

1361
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,240
actually making love, you're not
thinking of me.

1362
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:19,400
You're disassociated.
And in order to reach orgasm,

1363
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:23,520
you have to think about past
videos and the disconnect that

1364
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:26,680
that has and the way that that
can make a partner feel of like

1365
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:30,200
I'm not good enough.
And the way like self blame

1366
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:33,840
comes in of like I'm not good
enough to entice you sexually,

1367
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:35,760
not realizing that it has
nothing to do with you.

1368
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:38,560
It is the reward center of the
brain has been completely

1369
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:42,400
hijacked.
You know, so like I I've seen

1370
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:47,920
that and then times, you know,
you work with couples who have

1371
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:51,240
open marriages and cheating was
really like the dishonesty that

1372
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:52,400
came along with it, right?
So.

1373
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:54,760
They'd be OK with being open,
but as long as you're not lying

1374
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:56,880
to me about it.
Yeah, absolutely.

1375
01:15:57,160 --> 01:16:02,520
There's so many, so many
different things, you know, or

1376
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:07,600
yeah, infidelity.
I I don't care that you're with

1377
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:09,880
somebody, but if you cross an
emotional line.

1378
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:10,880
Oh.
It's so interesting.

1379
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:15,840
You know, or you looking at
somebody and objectifying them

1380
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:18,320
is like that to me.
Is she?

1381
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:20,680
Sure, right people.
My wife makes me look away when

1382
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,800
we're watching an HBO show, you
know, and, and, you know,

1383
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:25,720
watching The Sopranos and
they're in the strip club and

1384
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:27,440
all of a sudden she's like, hey,
yeah, what are you doing?

1385
01:16:27,440 --> 01:16:29,760
I'm like, and then she looks
over and I'm already looking

1386
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:31,520
away because I already know that
she's going to be pissed off at

1387
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:33,880
me, you know like I haven't, I
didn't tell you I watched the

1388
01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:38,480
show 4 times already, you know,
but and I noticed I know when to

1389
01:16:38,480 --> 01:16:40,880
look away already before it even
happens, you know, but.

1390
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:48,240
Well, and that like my desire,
my attract, like attraction,

1391
01:16:48,400 --> 01:16:50,680
yes, these are really sacred
beautiful things.

1392
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:53,800
And like, do I have an agreement
with my partner that my desire

1393
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:56,080
and attraction is for them,
right?

1394
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:59,280
To think of communication needs
to be 100 like so you have to

1395
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:02,840
have a conversation and say this
is what's acceptable to me and

1396
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:05,600
this isn't and that could be
responded to.

1397
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:08,200
I say, well, you know, I counter
this.

1398
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:10,600
I counter that this is, you
know, I don't, you know, why did

1399
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:13,200
I think it should just be a
conversation as opposed to

1400
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:14,720
naive?
Again, no talks about it.

1401
01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:16,800
My wife and I did not talk about
porn.

1402
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:19,760
No, before we got married.
Yeah, we did not talk about it.

1403
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:22,120
We actually, it actually came up
because another one of her

1404
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:25,520
friends was dealing with
something else with someone else

1405
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,880
that they knew.
And and then they kind of just

1406
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:31,240
came up and got, oh, oh, is
that, you know, is that a thing?

1407
01:17:31,240 --> 01:17:33,720
And like, you know, but like
we're already married, we

1408
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:36,560
already have a kid, you know,
like, you know, like this is not

1409
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:40,200
like, and I blame my, you know,
I mean, I, I, I take

1410
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:42,120
responsibility for the fact that
it should have been a

1411
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:45,080
conversation that I had earlier
that I probably was not man

1412
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,360
enough to have.
I had a lot of other hard

1413
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:52,280
conversations, but I think it's
important.

1414
01:17:52,480 --> 01:17:55,360
Yeah.
And I, I kind of going back to

1415
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:58,320
like the love addiction stuff we
were talking about too.

1416
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:00,520
Like I've had clients like, and
you've seen this in the news a

1417
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:07,040
lot where a person will like
slowly drain their entire

1418
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:11,240
retirement and gift cards to
another person that they met on

1419
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:14,120
the Internet.
Like that's how powerful fantasy

1420
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:16,600
is, right?
And I've never met up with them.

1421
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:19,520
I've never, yes, I've never seen
them.

1422
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:23,280
It's pictures.
Sometimes it's phone calls, but

1423
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:27,040
like, is that cheating that I've
had this entire emotional affair

1424
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:29,360
with this other human and we've
never even met?

1425
01:18:29,440 --> 01:18:31,840
I think yes, personally, I would
say yes, personally.

1426
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:34,360
There's a show called Traffic.
Do you ever hear of it?

1427
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:36,120
I have not.
It's on Hulu.

1428
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:39,600
It's it's a woman, she's been a
Rogan a couple of times.

1429
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:42,520
Mariana Van Steller, I think is
her name.

1430
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:45,320
And she does the show's called
trafficked and it's she's an

1431
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:48,160
investigative journalist and she
she goes to the underground all

1432
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:51,360
this Four Seasons.
Each one is a 45 minutes, an

1433
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:53,280
hour long episode on the
underground world.

1434
01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:57,040
So, and one of the big things
that she did was love scandals

1435
01:18:57,480 --> 01:19:03,520
was that people apparently Ghana
has a huge culture of they have

1436
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:08,680
scripts and and books and videos
and they get in it and they W

1437
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:13,320
pump is a huge location for
wealthy, lonely older people

1438
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:17,360
that are on dating sites.
You get someone and, and, and a

1439
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:20,720
lot of times, you know, when
based on the, you know, the, the

1440
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:25,400
show, they'd say, like we'd even
give these people money and buy

1441
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:28,520
them gift cards and give them
little things of love and send

1442
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:30,640
them flowers and stuff to
develop that kind of sense of

1443
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:33,680
trust, which is actually, I
think I remember we were talking

1444
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:37,960
on camera or not about it, but
like to lie to tell the little

1445
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:40,000
bit of the truth in order to get
away with a bigger lie, you

1446
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:43,360
know, to like give, to throw you
a bone so that you could take

1447
01:19:43,440 --> 01:19:45,560
something a whole lot bigger
than that, you know, while

1448
01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:49,280
you're playing with the bone.
And I think that that happens a

1449
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:50,840
lot.
Yeah, it does.

1450
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:56,240
And that is like, you know, when
I bring up like how devastating

1451
01:19:56,240 --> 01:20:01,520
like love addiction can be where
like here I am, I'm being

1452
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:05,480
scammed.
And sometimes I paint green or I

1453
01:20:05,480 --> 01:20:09,080
paint red flags green because
like, it felt really good when

1454
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:11,680
like, you did show up for me,
right?

1455
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:16,480
Like when I got that bone and,
and just how that plays out,

1456
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:19,880
right?
And it's kind of going back to,

1457
01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:26,000
you know, me.
I'm married for 50 years and

1458
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:27,920
we're kind of roommates at this
point.

1459
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:31,440
We still love each other, but
now I've I've met one of these

1460
01:20:31,440 --> 01:20:35,680
people online and I'm having
this entire thing that's only

1461
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:38,400
exists in my mind.
Like did I?

1462
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:39,920
Did I treat them?
That's one of the most

1463
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:41,680
complicated.
That's one of the most

1464
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:43,640
complicated.
Would you do you get cases like

1465
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:44,920
that?
Yeah, yeah.

1466
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:48,280
Where people come in and they
say we are just roommates.

1467
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:51,040
It feels like.
I really, I feel like I just

1468
01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:54,120
like live with this person.
Our relationship is not where it

1469
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:55,080
should be.
And where do you, what do you

1470
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:58,440
expect me to do?
Sometimes, yeah, absolutely.

1471
01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:03,280
And and sometimes it can, it can
be like a catalyst that propels

1472
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:05,480
this couple into like a
completely different

1473
01:21:05,480 --> 01:21:08,560
relationship, which I've seen be
really beautiful too.

1474
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:10,600
Oh, really?
Yeah, absolutely.

1475
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:13,960
I think like I like I have all
these like I'm a I'm a seaside,

1476
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:15,560
I'm MDR.
I do all these things.

1477
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:20,400
But like at my core, like I am a
therapist who specializes in

1478
01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:25,360
connection and into the city and
whether that's building more

1479
01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:28,520
connection with myself, with
God, with the world around me,

1480
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:33,080
with my partner, with parts of
me, my sexuality, my desire, all

1481
01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:36,000
these different things.
Like that is I am so excited

1482
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:39,280
that I get to do that with
people because I see a lot of

1483
01:21:39,280 --> 01:21:43,040
people do the work and it start
to experience connection to all

1484
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:45,400
these different things in really
new and beautiful ways.

1485
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:48,640
Yeah.
So that like, yeah, I, I kind

1486
01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:51,280
of, I get all types of stuff.
But really at its core, it's

1487
01:21:51,960 --> 01:21:53,800
it's all about.
So tell me about the couple

1488
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:57,160
dynamics now that we now that
now that we're here, I love

1489
01:21:57,160 --> 01:21:58,920
this.
I'm excited because this is I

1490
01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:05,400
feel like this is like it's all
I don't want to call it fun, but

1491
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:07,720
there's more, there's more
dynamic.

1492
01:22:07,760 --> 01:22:13,000
It's when you have two living,
breathing, conscious parties

1493
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:17,160
that are involved, the emergent
potential of like what could

1494
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:19,880
happen or the potential toolbox
that you have to like pull out

1495
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:22,840
has to be so much more
complicated, so much more

1496
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:26,400
diverse, right?
Because this is an 18 year old

1497
01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:27,480
kid that's sitting across from
me.

1498
01:22:27,480 --> 01:22:29,840
There's a couple that's been
married with four kids for 20

1499
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:31,520
years or for 30 years, something
like that.

1500
01:22:31,520 --> 01:22:33,720
But there's a couple that's been
together for five years, you

1501
01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:36,080
know, and it's just starting out
their lives together, you know,

1502
01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:38,200
what do you find?
What, what, what?

1503
01:22:38,440 --> 01:22:43,720
What do you think?
It's funny, like I, I love doing

1504
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:47,440
it, but I also like I get a lot
of anxiety about it too.

1505
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:52,720
IA friend of mine used to say
this to me all the time back in

1506
01:22:52,720 --> 01:22:54,000
the day.
He said if you want to know

1507
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:57,480
what's wrong with you getting a
relationship And I do believe

1508
01:22:57,480 --> 01:23:00,000
that.
I think I kind of see it in like

1509
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:01,960
through a spiritual ends.
I feel like whoever we're

1510
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:06,840
partnered with, whether that
person is there for life or for

1511
01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:11,040
a season, I see it in the sense
of like we are drawn to the

1512
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:14,280
people who are going to teach us
a lot about ourselves.

1513
01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:18,080
We are going to trigger each
other like talking about

1514
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:20,640
attachment like anxious and
avoid and always tend to find

1515
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:23,000
each other.
Anxious and avoid and tend to

1516
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:24,360
find each other.
Tend to find each other.

1517
01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:27,440
That's interesting.
Yeah.

1518
01:23:27,560 --> 01:23:29,960
What other, what other, what
other kind of opposing traits

1519
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:34,000
tend to find each other?
Well, I think too, it's like we

1520
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:40,080
can sometimes we can recreate
like things from our childhood.

1521
01:23:41,160 --> 01:23:44,600
We can like fall in love with
the things we swore we'd never

1522
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:48,200
fall in love with that were in
our caregivers.

1523
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:51,720
Or we can do like their reaction
formation of like, I'm going to

1524
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:53,520
go to the opposite.
Yeah.

1525
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:55,360
Which is still being controlled
by it.

1526
01:23:55,360 --> 01:23:56,240
Sure.
Right.

1527
01:23:57,560 --> 01:23:59,320
Yeah.
Like, and I'm not an imago

1528
01:23:59,320 --> 01:24:01,680
therapist, but I think that they
do a really good job of

1529
01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:07,280
exploring that kind of stuff.
I've noticed that especially in

1530
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:10,440
like in the sex addiction world,
that like when you start to kind

1531
01:24:10,440 --> 01:24:14,320
of peel back the layers, it's
like, Oh my gosh, you guys were

1532
01:24:14,320 --> 01:24:15,760
like always meant to find each
other.

1533
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:17,640
Oh, really?
Yeah.

1534
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:21,680
And, and the sense of like, you
know, you can have like one of

1535
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:26,720
the, the person who's you find
out later in sessions that like,

1536
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:28,960
oh, yeah.
Like my, my parent was a sex

1537
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:34,280
addict, you know, and like
unconsciously fell in love with

1538
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:38,160
a sex addict, right?
There's stuff like that that

1539
01:24:38,200 --> 01:24:40,120
really blows my mind.
I was in, so I was in high

1540
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:42,240
school.
This is my first exposure

1541
01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:44,400
something like this.
And when I was in middle school,

1542
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:47,320
this is a firt like the world I
grew up in was very sheltered,

1543
01:24:47,320 --> 01:24:51,320
very wholesome, but and I'm sure
an enormous part done by my

1544
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:54,000
parents, right, that they
purposely, intentionally kept me

1545
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:55,560
very innocent, which I really
like.

1546
01:24:56,040 --> 01:24:58,760
I had no idea how much I
appreciate it until I lost that

1547
01:24:58,760 --> 01:25:00,520
innocence.
And I was like, wow, that was

1548
01:25:00,520 --> 01:25:05,320
amazing, you know, but my, I
remember in 7th or 8th grade,

1549
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:07,920
there was two kids.
The class was small, a small

1550
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:09,600
Jewish school.
And then maybe there's 10:15

1551
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:12,920
kids in the class, two kids, one
kids, mom, something other kids

1552
01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:14,800
dad.
And they ended up getting

1553
01:25:14,800 --> 01:25:16,840
divorced and then the parents
end up getting married, right.

1554
01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:18,640
And I was good friends with
actually both kids.

1555
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:21,360
And it was very, it was
incredibly difficult for the,

1556
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:23,320
because they were friends.
They were in the basketball team

1557
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:24,480
together.
They were buddies there, you

1558
01:25:24,480 --> 01:25:27,720
know, they knew each other and
this is big.

1559
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:29,960
This is like public news.
This was not like just kind of

1560
01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:32,880
whispers.
This was verified, you know,

1561
01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:35,960
divorced and like they're living
in a house together.

1562
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:40,960
Remarried, you know, I'm like,
and then years late in high

1563
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:46,440
school, you know, I think 12th
grade, he was having a hard time

1564
01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:52,240
with whatever and he cheated on
his girlfriend and, you know,

1565
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:54,320
and a bunch of his friends
abandoned him for that.

1566
01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:56,840
And I remember this was towards
the end of the year and like,

1567
01:25:56,840 --> 01:25:59,160
we're like, especially 12th
grade and like, you don't know

1568
01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:00,360
what life is going to be
happening.

1569
01:26:00,360 --> 01:26:01,600
You're mature enough to know
that.

1570
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:03,840
Like you got to be mature, but
you're not mature enough to know

1571
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:06,440
what that means.
And so we're sitting around a

1572
01:26:06,440 --> 01:26:08,120
bonfire kind of just a
contemplating life.

1573
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:10,160
I'm always have my heart broken.
I think my heart broken.

1574
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:11,680
My heart was broken at that
point.

1575
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:16,480
And I was like, why?
Like you saw what your, what

1576
01:26:16,480 --> 01:26:19,800
your, what one parent did to the
other, Like, how can you, how

1577
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:22,840
can you do that?
And he's like, I, he's like,

1578
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:25,800
hey, you look at me, he goes,
I've no, I, I've swear to God,

1579
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:28,320
he goes, I've no idea.
I just felt like this

1580
01:26:28,440 --> 01:26:32,480
incredible, just like pull, just
like I just needed to do it.

1581
01:26:32,480 --> 01:26:34,840
And like you're just something
like, it was like, like I just

1582
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:36,520
had to make it just had to
happen.

1583
01:26:36,520 --> 01:26:38,800
And he goes and I felt like
piece of shit about it, you

1584
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:42,560
know, but I just like I just
couldn't pull myself away from

1585
01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:44,600
like that's the thing I needed
to do.

1586
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:48,440
And I don't know where you know,
and and you know, I hope he's

1587
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:50,360
the truth is I haven't kept in
touch with him and I hope he's

1588
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:53,400
doing well, but I feel like
that's like that's a lot of

1589
01:26:53,400 --> 01:26:56,720
people where you end up, you
know, but you go through

1590
01:26:56,720 --> 01:26:58,600
something that hurts you.
It's something that like you

1591
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:01,320
see, has such detrimental
effects, Like what pulls us to

1592
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:08,440
like pursue that ourselves?
I don't know, you know, and it's

1593
01:27:08,440 --> 01:27:10,320
scary because until we figure
that out, we're kind of doomed

1594
01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:11,960
to keep on repeating the same
thing, right?

1595
01:27:11,960 --> 01:27:13,800
I.
Think Life has this really

1596
01:27:13,800 --> 01:27:16,600
amazing way of bringing up the
same stuff.

1597
01:27:17,440 --> 01:27:20,080
The script's different, the
characters are different, but

1598
01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:23,120
the themes are the same until
we, like, figure it out.

1599
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:26,040
Yeah, you know, And like, I hear
that.

1600
01:27:26,040 --> 01:27:28,200
And it's.
Yeah, I.

1601
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:31,600
Because I see that thing happen
all the time, right?

1602
01:27:31,600 --> 01:27:34,480
Like I grew up with an alcoholic
parent and I swore that I would

1603
01:27:34,480 --> 01:27:35,760
never.
Drink.

1604
01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:38,840
And then I'm in my 20s, and I'm
going to rehab because now I'm

1605
01:27:38,840 --> 01:27:39,720
an alcoholic.
Right?

1606
01:27:40,200 --> 01:27:42,200
Like, we become the thing that
we resist.

1607
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:45,480
Yeah.
And I think part of it, you

1608
01:27:45,480 --> 01:27:48,640
know, two things came up for me
while you were sharing that.

1609
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:51,280
And 1 was like, sometimes, like,
we revisit the scene of the

1610
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:53,480
crime and we, like, play
different roles.

1611
01:27:56,080 --> 01:27:59,200
And I think the other thing that
comes up for me is like the

1612
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:03,560
carbon triangle, which is
especially like you see it kind

1613
01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:07,960
of, I see it a lot in, in
divorce where you have the

1614
01:28:07,960 --> 01:28:11,120
perpetrator, the victim and the
savior, right?

1615
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:16,960
And one parent cheats, they
become the perpetrator, right?

1616
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:21,960
The parent who was not cheating,
they're the victim, right?

1617
01:28:22,000 --> 01:28:24,240
And then the kid is forced to
pick a side.

1618
01:28:24,240 --> 01:28:26,480
So they become the savior to the
victim, right?

1619
01:28:26,480 --> 01:28:30,040
And then it's this dance that
people kind of go back and forth

1620
01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:31,400
in.
And I think a lot of us can get

1621
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:36,160
trained in that relationally as
children, as teenagers.

1622
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:39,440
And and then here we are in our
relationship in our, you know,

1623
01:28:39,440 --> 01:28:43,720
when we're 1920 and we shifted
into the 30 or 40 what?

1624
01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:45,560
Do you hope, you know hope or
not I can grab that you hope

1625
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:47,640
not.
And we can find ourselves like

1626
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:50,920
doing the same roles that were
taught to us as kids switching

1627
01:28:50,920 --> 01:28:52,720
around.
And I remember I heard someone

1628
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:55,480
say this like, I can play all
three roles in an afternoon.

1629
01:28:55,600 --> 01:29:01,080
Like especially with shame, like
I can release talk negatively to

1630
01:29:01,080 --> 01:29:05,200
myself, which I'm the
perpetrator, Then you know, the

1631
01:29:05,200 --> 01:29:07,320
beer becomes my savior.
Yeah.

1632
01:29:08,080 --> 01:29:11,480
And I'm really my own victim.
So it's, it's, I know that came

1633
01:29:11,480 --> 01:29:14,400
up for me as, as you were saying
that as we kind of get trained

1634
01:29:14,400 --> 01:29:17,080
in that and then dance around in
different roles and bring that

1635
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:20,640
into future relationships until
those things are healed, right,

1636
01:29:20,760 --> 01:29:22,760
You know, and even after they're
healed, it still takes a lot.

1637
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:25,600
Of work, you know, do you hear a
couple stories usually end up

1638
01:29:25,600 --> 01:29:28,600
well, usually.
Yeah, most of the time, yeah.

1639
01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:32,680
And that's not to say like, you
know, divorce doesn't happen and

1640
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:37,760
and people don't separate it,
but for the most part, most

1641
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:39,440
people come in because they want
to stay together.

1642
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:44,560
It feels like it feels like
cheating is like the ultimate

1643
01:29:45,360 --> 01:29:47,720
abandonment of a relationship,
right?

1644
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:51,400
Like, I feel like, you know, you
could take a bad husband or wife

1645
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:52,600
can get away with a lot of
things.

1646
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:57,040
You know, they can get away with
not being present, with spending

1647
01:29:57,040 --> 01:30:00,160
money recklessly, with not being
emotionally active or invested.

1648
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:03,160
They can get away with like bad
friends or bad community.

1649
01:30:03,160 --> 01:30:06,280
And like, you know, there's like
a line with like cheating that

1650
01:30:06,280 --> 01:30:09,000
like you can't like it's very,
very difficult to get trust

1651
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:10,640
back.
What do you, what do people do

1652
01:30:10,640 --> 01:30:14,720
to do?
How do you frame it in such a

1653
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:20,080
way that people can try and get
trust back after, you know,

1654
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:22,440
especially when you're putting
in the lens of some kind of

1655
01:30:22,440 --> 01:30:25,440
addiction like porn or sex
addiction or process addiction

1656
01:30:25,440 --> 01:30:28,960
like that?
Well, firstly, like I remind

1657
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:33,960
people that like trust is yours
to give somebody like it's not

1658
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:36,600
theirs to have like that's
yours.

1659
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:40,520
Because I think it's like,
that's like one of the first

1660
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:43,440
things is like, oh, this is my
thing that I have in a

1661
01:30:43,440 --> 01:30:45,720
relationship and I need to
protect it.

1662
01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:51,560
You know, I at 1st and kind of
what you were saying earlier, I

1663
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:54,840
think of like Esther Perrell
when she talks about like how

1664
01:30:54,840 --> 01:31:02,120
the old shame was divorce and
now the new shame is staying in

1665
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:04,520
a marriage when you can leave,
right?

1666
01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:06,800
And I've, we've seen that kind
of shift in culture.

1667
01:31:09,440 --> 01:31:21,360
It is.
So first to kind of go through

1668
01:31:21,360 --> 01:31:23,720
like a bunch of stuff to answer
your question.

1669
01:31:23,720 --> 01:31:24,720
Yes, trust.
Let's do it.

1670
01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:32,400
So first thing is, especially
with sex addiction, there's a

1671
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:34,000
couple of ways that people find
out.

1672
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:40,120
There are discoveries, which is
I saw the lipstick on the

1673
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:42,760
collar, I went through my wife's
phone and I saw the text

1674
01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:45,720
messages.
You forgot to delete your

1675
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:48,160
browser history.
Like all the things.

1676
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:53,440
And these discoveries can be
incredibly painful.

1677
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:59,440
And they're usually followed by
like a short disclosure.

1678
01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:02,720
That's not a whole disclosure,
but it's enough to like let you

1679
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:04,480
know like, hey, this is what
happened.

1680
01:32:05,600 --> 01:32:07,520
And you see this with a lot of
couples that they will go

1681
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:10,880
through so many of those and it
becomes like this death by 1000

1682
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:13,280
cuts.
We know that it is.

1683
01:32:13,360 --> 01:32:16,320
It is a horrific thing to keep
experiencing that every couple

1684
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:18,880
of months.
Yeah, it's heartbreaking.

1685
01:32:19,120 --> 01:32:23,280
To want to believe your spouse
and, and on top of that, then

1686
01:32:23,280 --> 01:32:25,400
there's like things like the
gaslighting, right?

1687
01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:28,720
Where like there's the lipstick
on the collar and I'm convincing

1688
01:32:28,720 --> 01:32:33,120
you that it's yours, you know,
or I know you saw the browser

1689
01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:36,160
history, but that was from
before and where you get

1690
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:38,880
somebody who loves you to
question their own reality and

1691
01:32:38,880 --> 01:32:40,320
and then start to go crazy from
it.

1692
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:43,880
That's the meat.
I feel like that's the most

1693
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:47,240
terrible thing that you could do
to someone.

1694
01:32:47,360 --> 01:32:50,120
Yeah, it's a form of abuse.
It's yeah, but it's more than

1695
01:32:50,120 --> 01:32:53,160
it's like, because not only are
you shouting because I think

1696
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:55,960
there's like any kind of
relationship, there's the

1697
01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:58,120
individual components and then
there's the relationship at

1698
01:32:58,120 --> 01:32:59,920
large.
And you're shattering the

1699
01:32:59,920 --> 01:33:02,440
relationship at large and the
other individual at the same

1700
01:33:02,440 --> 01:33:04,800
time.
And that is like, like, it's one

1701
01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:07,400
thing if you're going to break
your relationship and that is

1702
01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:10,800
sad and, you know, terrible in
its own, you know, for its own

1703
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:14,120
reasons in its own way.
But like to make someone else

1704
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:16,760
think for years that they're
delusional from, you know, just

1705
01:33:16,760 --> 01:33:19,720
like just constantly feed them
half truths that make them doubt

1706
01:33:19,720 --> 01:33:21,440
themselves.
Every step along the way is like

1707
01:33:21,440 --> 01:33:24,240
such an unnecessary harm.
And Neo Mitting.

1708
01:33:24,360 --> 01:33:25,840
Yeah.
Because I'll let you develop a

1709
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:31,120
story that I know is not true.
And and to kind of come over

1710
01:33:31,120 --> 01:33:32,560
onto the attic side a little
bit.

1711
01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:36,920
It's it's survival.
It's I am in this constant state

1712
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:40,480
of survival.
This thing that I do is the way

1713
01:33:40,480 --> 01:33:45,400
that I cope with life.
I'm terrified of losing my, my

1714
01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:47,640
partner.
I'm in this fight or flight all

1715
01:33:47,640 --> 01:33:50,080
the time.
And so I use gaslighting and I

1716
01:33:50,080 --> 01:33:52,320
use lying.
And I'm not saying this is OK.

1717
01:33:52,320 --> 01:33:56,800
I'm just saying like it's, it
becomes a tool and where it

1718
01:33:56,800 --> 01:33:59,640
almost it becomes unconscious
too, where like I just lie so

1719
01:33:59,640 --> 01:34:00,760
much.
I don't even know what the truth

1720
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:05,280
is anymore, you know, So it's, I
have like compassion for both

1721
01:34:05,280 --> 01:34:08,240
sides.
Because when the especially when

1722
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:10,240
I'm sitting with the addict and
we're doing that work, like the

1723
01:34:10,240 --> 01:34:14,440
amount of shame and guilt and
self hatred that comes along

1724
01:34:14,440 --> 01:34:18,120
with realizing like, I did this
thing compulsively and I

1725
01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:21,640
couldn't stop.
It breaks your heart.

1726
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:24,080
And then you sit with the
betrayed partner who's like, I

1727
01:34:24,080 --> 01:34:28,840
don't know what's real anymore,
you know, and I've lost my mind,

1728
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:31,280
you know, And this isn't just
with sex addiction.

1729
01:34:31,280 --> 01:34:32,960
This is with substance use.
Yeah.

1730
01:34:32,960 --> 01:34:37,520
With, you know, a parent loving
a child who's addicted to

1731
01:34:37,520 --> 01:34:39,960
heroin.
Like this is it's these dynamics

1732
01:34:39,960 --> 01:34:41,480
kind of they, they play out a
lot.

1733
01:34:42,840 --> 01:34:46,160
And then how do you build trust
when that, when these things are

1734
01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:48,280
happening and you've had a death
by 1000 cuts.

1735
01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:53,040
So usually somebody comes in to
treatment and like some sobriety

1736
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:59,760
is, is established.
I So what we do next is what you

1737
01:34:59,760 --> 01:35:04,960
would call formal disclosure.
And usually the partners working

1738
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:08,760
with a CSAT and the, the
betrayed partner and the, the

1739
01:35:08,760 --> 01:35:13,320
sex sex addict is also working
with the CSAT and you roughly

1740
01:35:13,320 --> 01:35:16,200
begin to do that work or you
roughly have a disclosure around

1741
01:35:16,200 --> 01:35:19,320
the three to six month part.
Like anymore, it's can be really

1742
01:35:19,320 --> 01:35:21,800
cruel to the betrayed partner
who's like, I'm just trying to

1743
01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:28,960
like get some clarity, you know,
And it's, it is a, it is a

1744
01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:33,280
really rough process because
it's, it's really like the

1745
01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:36,040
betrayed partners, like they
come up with the questions.

1746
01:35:36,040 --> 01:35:37,960
What's the room like?
What's it like being in that

1747
01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:40,040
room?
Is it like, is it like there's a

1748
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:43,800
blanket on the room?
Is it, is it crying?

1749
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:46,160
Is it dark?
Is it exhausted with, you know,

1750
01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:49,440
like, hopefully?
Above but like then also at

1751
01:35:49,440 --> 01:35:53,800
times where it's like really
vulnerable and connecting and

1752
01:35:53,800 --> 01:35:58,400
beautiful, you know, it's like.
Is that weigh on you at any

1753
01:35:58,400 --> 01:36:00,120
point?
Yeah, it does.

1754
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:03,000
Yeah.
I, I can overempathize.

1755
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:06,680
That's like my sure.
And I, I have to like constantly

1756
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:10,520
work on that where I'm like,
hey, Chris, this is not yours to

1757
01:36:10,520 --> 01:36:13,440
feel.
And it's it can be.

1758
01:36:13,440 --> 01:36:16,920
What do you, what do you do to
to read the channel, I guess to

1759
01:36:16,920 --> 01:36:18,480
kind of shift away from that
it's.

1760
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:22,680
My own work, you know, I I see a
therapist and there.

1761
01:36:23,680 --> 01:36:24,560
You go.
That's helpful.

1762
01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:27,160
I do a lot of.
Consultation and I do a lot of

1763
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:28,680
supervision with other
therapists.

1764
01:36:29,440 --> 01:36:30,800
Right.
Do you exercise?

1765
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:32,480
Do you do things like that?
Exercise.

1766
01:36:32,480 --> 01:36:38,080
I try to eat healthy.
I I've been doing this like

1767
01:36:38,080 --> 01:36:41,480
where I go to Delray Beach every
morning and I watch the sunrise

1768
01:36:41,480 --> 01:36:42,640
and I go for a walk there.
Nice.

1769
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:44,560
And you could probably do it at
a decent time too, right?

1770
01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:48,040
It's like 7730.
I could go around like 536.

1771
01:36:48,040 --> 01:36:49,400
I like it.
Like when it's dark.

1772
01:36:49,640 --> 01:36:55,680
Nice, you know, I like what am I
doing to feed my soul and then

1773
01:36:55,680 --> 01:36:58,800
the boundaries that I have like
I'm not answering calls or

1774
01:36:58,800 --> 01:37:02,360
emails after a certain time.
I'm not working on these days,

1775
01:37:02,360 --> 01:37:07,280
no matter what.
I'm saying yes to things even

1776
01:37:07,280 --> 01:37:10,200
when, like, my nervous systems,
like I want to lay in bed and

1777
01:37:10,200 --> 01:37:15,440
watch TikTok for an hour, like
just bedrock, you know?

1778
01:37:15,480 --> 01:37:17,400
And instead, I'm like, I'm going
to go out with my friends and

1779
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:20,600
I'm going to, like, talk about,
you know, things that are not

1780
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:23,160
super traumatic.
Yeah, for.

1781
01:37:23,440 --> 01:37:27,240
Other people and then
oscillating back and forth of

1782
01:37:27,240 --> 01:37:30,160
like dealing with the stuff that
comes up for me, and then like,

1783
01:37:30,160 --> 01:37:31,440
yeah, I'm going to go have the
cheesecake.

1784
01:37:31,480 --> 01:37:32,320
Nice.
You know.

1785
01:37:32,400 --> 01:37:35,880
Yeah.
And yeah, just like a lot of

1786
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:38,720
regulation, a lot of grounding,
a lot of that kind of stuff.

1787
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:45,800
Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
Anyway, yeah, so, so we're

1788
01:37:45,800 --> 01:37:50,520
talking so relationship trust,
that room's heavy a lot of

1789
01:37:50,520 --> 01:37:52,240
times.
Once that happened once.

1790
01:37:53,640 --> 01:37:55,960
So I guess, yeah, I guess when
people are going to therapy, it

1791
01:37:55,960 --> 01:37:57,640
shows that it shows that they
want to try, right?

1792
01:37:57,640 --> 01:37:59,280
It shows that they want their
relation to work.

1793
01:37:59,920 --> 01:38:02,360
Do a lot of people come to you
after they're ready, after their

1794
01:38:02,360 --> 01:38:04,840
marriage has already fallen
apart and they're like, well,

1795
01:38:04,840 --> 01:38:07,040
now I need to get this off
because I don't want this to be

1796
01:38:07,040 --> 01:38:12,040
my life.
Yeah, like in all stages, you

1797
01:38:12,040 --> 01:38:15,640
know, if people who've already
separated but like, want a Full

1798
01:38:15,640 --> 01:38:16,560
disclosure.
Yeah.

1799
01:38:17,880 --> 01:38:21,040
Oh, that's interesting.
Like so that they can like, stop

1800
01:38:21,040 --> 01:38:22,400
questioning themselves all the
time.

1801
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:24,400
I think the partner probably
owes it to them, right?

1802
01:38:24,840 --> 01:38:27,760
Yeah, absolutely.
And like, and then there's these

1803
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:30,760
other parts of it which are like
the impact.

1804
01:38:30,840 --> 01:38:34,080
Yeah.
And we're the betrayed partner.

1805
01:38:34,080 --> 01:38:39,040
Like it's to say, like, hey,
this discovery impacted me like

1806
01:38:39,040 --> 01:38:42,280
this.
My relationship with my own

1807
01:38:42,280 --> 01:38:46,160
sexuality has changed because of
this, like me not feeling good

1808
01:38:46,160 --> 01:38:48,640
enough sexually, like I could
ever compete with whatever the

1809
01:38:48,640 --> 01:38:51,080
thing was and thinking that was
mine.

1810
01:38:51,440 --> 01:38:53,360
I inherited that from you,
right?

1811
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:56,600
The self blame that comes with
it.

1812
01:38:57,040 --> 01:38:59,360
There's there's all these kind
of domains that are really

1813
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:04,440
interesting to explore and the
the betrayed partner really gets

1814
01:39:04,440 --> 01:39:06,320
to own that.
And then there's restitution

1815
01:39:07,160 --> 01:39:10,200
where the addict is like, Hey,
I'm going to validate you and

1816
01:39:10,200 --> 01:39:12,680
I'm going to, you know, you're
absolutely right.

1817
01:39:12,680 --> 01:39:15,120
This is what I did too.
This is what my gaslighting did

1818
01:39:15,120 --> 01:39:18,200
too.
And I see that that can be such

1819
01:39:18,280 --> 01:39:23,000
a powerful process.
And the the goal is to make it

1820
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:26,400
as least traumatic as possible.
Even though it is it, it can be

1821
01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:28,880
a really traumatic process.
Totally, totally.

1822
01:39:29,200 --> 01:39:32,320
Last question, 222.
Last questions, everyone.

1823
01:39:33,480 --> 01:39:34,880
We talked about a little bit in
passing.

1824
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:37,000
You actually brought it up
before I did, but I'm happy you

1825
01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:40,200
did when you met kosher phones.
Yeah.

1826
01:39:41,040 --> 01:39:42,960
And social media.
So I want to just talk about

1827
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:45,520
that and then I want to ask you
about what's next for you.

1828
01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:47,440
But let's, that'll be the last
question.

1829
01:39:47,440 --> 01:39:50,560
So let's, let's talk about
kosher phones and to explain

1830
01:39:50,560 --> 01:39:52,560
what a kosher phone is because
you brought it up to me.

1831
01:39:52,560 --> 01:39:58,200
So you educate me and, and, and
then social media and stuff like

1832
01:39:58,200 --> 01:39:59,640
that.
Because I know for myself again,

1833
01:39:59,640 --> 01:40:02,920
that I mentioned to this here
when we met last week, that the

1834
01:40:03,080 --> 01:40:05,400
sometimes the, the biggest
triggers for me, the biggest

1835
01:40:05,400 --> 01:40:09,840
challenges that I have will be
1/2 a second social media clip

1836
01:40:09,840 --> 01:40:12,640
on.
Instagram or Twitter or, you

1837
01:40:12,640 --> 01:40:15,840
know, whatever it is where like
something just like flashes

1838
01:40:15,840 --> 01:40:19,480
across the screen, trigger them,
triggers my like, boom, that's,

1839
01:40:19,480 --> 01:40:22,240
you know, attractive, that's
whatever, blah, blah.

1840
01:40:22,240 --> 01:40:26,240
And I just like, I feel the
hijack just happened, you know?

1841
01:40:27,040 --> 01:40:30,680
And that's when like social
media is like, is that in my red

1842
01:40:30,680 --> 01:40:33,720
or is that in my yellow?
Like it is in a hard red and

1843
01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:37,440
unfortunately it's still there.
Yeah, or like what?

1844
01:40:37,480 --> 01:40:41,640
What do I have in place?
Another seaside actually.

1845
01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:43,240
And I've been meaning to do this
with my phone.

1846
01:40:43,680 --> 01:40:47,360
She does it where her iPhone if
she's on an app for 15 minutes,

1847
01:40:47,360 --> 01:40:49,720
you can set a timer.
Yes, it'll kick you off And I

1848
01:40:49,840 --> 01:40:52,640
didn't know that existed so I I
need to use it.

1849
01:40:52,680 --> 01:40:55,080
Yeah, I use that.
I, I had that for when I had

1850
01:40:55,400 --> 01:40:59,760
Twitter and I had X on my phone,
I put 45 minutes a day for X and

1851
01:40:59,760 --> 01:41:03,440
Instagram.
And but the problem is that you

1852
01:41:03,440 --> 01:41:05,800
could still like just go back,
you could ignore it if you want,

1853
01:41:05,800 --> 01:41:08,320
like you could be like.
And that kind of also feeds into

1854
01:41:08,320 --> 01:41:11,760
the whole like, shame, you know,
process.

1855
01:41:11,760 --> 01:41:13,920
You're like, I'm such an idiot.
And you just keep on clicking

1856
01:41:13,920 --> 01:41:16,280
like, okay, another 15 minutes,
another 15 minutes, you know,

1857
01:41:16,280 --> 01:41:18,120
and.
And what's interesting in that

1858
01:41:18,120 --> 01:41:21,800
is like, I know it's 15 minutes
of disassociation followed by

1859
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:25,080
like a couple second break.
I would invite people to notice

1860
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:28,760
what it's like in their body, in
their mind when they're kicked

1861
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:31,640
off, what it's like wanting to
get back on, and then what it's

1862
01:41:31,640 --> 01:41:36,720
like when they get back on and
it's too challenging.

1863
01:41:37,880 --> 01:41:40,480
But it's like I felt my cortisol
rise.

1864
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:42,800
Yeah, and.
I felt it go down.

1865
01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:47,440
Yeah, it's that's, that's such
an interesting process.

1866
01:41:48,440 --> 01:41:53,000
I so I've worked, I've worked at
a couple different treatment

1867
01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:56,920
centers.
I've worked a lot with Jewish

1868
01:41:56,920 --> 01:41:59,560
communities, Orthodox
communities, acidic communities,

1869
01:42:00,640 --> 01:42:03,160
with these issues with mental
health, with substance use.

1870
01:42:03,160 --> 01:42:06,960
And kosher phones came up like a
while ago and I love them.

1871
01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:09,520
Yeah, because it's.
Explain what they are if you

1872
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:11,480
don't mind.
Where I don't have access to the

1873
01:42:11,480 --> 01:42:13,560
Internet, it's could be a flip
phone.

1874
01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:17,600
I know that there's like, I have
really smart clients who are

1875
01:42:17,600 --> 01:42:20,960
like, I can get pictures still.
Yeah, you know when I can like

1876
01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:25,360
do things like that, but it is
like I look at it as.

1877
01:42:25,360 --> 01:42:27,720
Even that at that point, the
degree of the damage done is

1878
01:42:27,720 --> 01:42:30,080
similar to like having to run
down the block to go to Playboy

1879
01:42:30,080 --> 01:42:33,040
magazine as opposed to going on
your phone and watching a

1880
01:42:33,040 --> 01:42:35,800
hardcore a hardcore pornography
video.

1881
01:42:35,920 --> 01:42:37,800
Yeah, I'm.
And I'm a huge fan of, like,

1882
01:42:37,800 --> 01:42:40,600
putting as many barriers between
me and the thing as possible.

1883
01:42:40,600 --> 01:42:43,960
Yeah.
Because yeah, like, I can't just

1884
01:42:43,960 --> 01:42:45,000
reach for it in my phone
anymore.

1885
01:42:45,000 --> 01:42:46,600
I have to walk downstairs to the
computer.

1886
01:42:46,600 --> 01:42:47,480
Correct.
Right.

1887
01:42:48,920 --> 01:42:52,440
So it's for some of my clients
and this is like a really

1888
01:42:52,440 --> 01:42:57,920
difficult thing to navigate
because these are so addictive

1889
01:42:58,360 --> 01:42:59,480
and I'm holding my phone right
now.

1890
01:43:00,480 --> 01:43:03,520
I've few phones, yeah.
Which is, you know.

1891
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:06,960
I've I've contemplated getting a
second phone and I can't bring

1892
01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:08,240
myself to do it.
I mean.

1893
01:43:08,600 --> 01:43:11,080
I did it to separate like work
and.

1894
01:43:11,360 --> 01:43:12,800
Do you find that it works well?
Yeah.

1895
01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:15,040
You, you, you have a good job.
You can do a good job

1896
01:43:15,040 --> 01:43:19,880
compartmentalizing it.
Because I, I put my work phone

1897
01:43:19,880 --> 01:43:22,880
on the charger and then I'm like
cut off from it and where it was

1898
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:26,680
when it was on my phone, it was
just constantly texts, things

1899
01:43:26,680 --> 01:43:27,520
like that.
Cool.

1900
01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:29,040
And now I can like, really take
a break.

1901
01:43:30,080 --> 01:43:34,080
But having that conversation
with like, hey, you know, is

1902
01:43:34,080 --> 01:43:36,520
your smartphone like something
that we need to put in the red

1903
01:43:36,520 --> 01:43:38,280
circle?
No.

1904
01:43:38,560 --> 01:43:41,080
It's not, it's such a hard sell,
right?

1905
01:43:41,120 --> 01:43:42,760
It's such a how do you how do
you sell it?

1906
01:43:43,160 --> 01:43:46,560
I I let it play out.
Everything I do is invitation.

1907
01:43:47,240 --> 01:43:49,960
Although I did find out that
suggestion when you look it up,

1908
01:43:50,480 --> 01:43:52,280
one of the definitions is subtle
command.

1909
01:43:52,440 --> 01:43:55,400
Oh man, but you're just a
propaganda artist.

1910
01:43:56,280 --> 01:44:00,560
Everything I do is invitation.
And it's really like in a non

1911
01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:03,800
judgmental way of like letting
people kind of come to the on

1912
01:44:03,800 --> 01:44:07,720
their own and like, hey, this
isn't forever like right now to

1913
01:44:07,720 --> 01:44:10,640
establish like sobriety, like
maybe we need to switch phones.

1914
01:44:12,320 --> 01:44:15,920
And I've had a lot of people who
like where like that will never

1915
01:44:15,920 --> 01:44:18,240
happen and then come into my
office 3 months later, they're

1916
01:44:18,240 --> 01:44:20,320
like, yeah, I had to get rid.
Of that I really want to do it

1917
01:44:20,640 --> 01:44:24,320
yeah, I really really want to do
it and I tell myself I can't

1918
01:44:24,320 --> 01:44:28,280
because I work for my phone and
emails and blah blah but 95% of

1919
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:31,480
the time whoever my phone is, my
laptop is and I don't

1920
01:44:31,480 --> 01:44:33,600
necessarily need for that to be
the case and and.

1921
01:44:34,320 --> 01:44:37,520
When you're not doing it on a
smartphone like I've people

1922
01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:41,800
become like amazingly, like they
can get their emails done and

1923
01:44:41,800 --> 01:44:45,000
like they can answer them from
this time on my computer and.

1924
01:44:45,120 --> 01:44:47,280
But even I'll even enjoy going
to the supermarket more.

1925
01:44:47,360 --> 01:44:50,880
I'll even enjoy going to the,
you know, driving, driving to

1926
01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:53,000
the gym in the morning, Like
when I'm driving to the gym in

1927
01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:55,480
the morning and I'm not
scrolling on Twitter.

1928
01:44:55,520 --> 01:44:58,920
I'm not, you know, checking to
see, you know, the next text or

1929
01:44:59,000 --> 01:45:02,080
notification that I'm getting.
And I can just enjoy the drive

1930
01:45:02,080 --> 01:45:04,640
for the drive and I can just
enjoy the activity of being in

1931
01:45:04,640 --> 01:45:07,360
the supermarket.
I when when you talk to a

1932
01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:10,240
cashier, when you say hi to
someone that's like get, you're

1933
01:45:10,240 --> 01:45:11,360
reaching for the same thing as
you.

1934
01:45:11,360 --> 01:45:15,120
Like, those are like sparks that
make that, that make your day.

1935
01:45:15,160 --> 01:45:18,240
You know, that like that make us
human and, and it's, and our

1936
01:45:18,240 --> 01:45:21,360
phone separates us from those.
I, I know for myself, like I got

1937
01:45:21,360 --> 01:45:23,400
my headphones and I got my
podcast, I'm listening to, I got

1938
01:45:23,400 --> 01:45:25,760
the music I'm jamming out to,
you know, I'm on the phone

1939
01:45:25,760 --> 01:45:28,600
talking to whoever it is and I'm
ignoring the entire world's

1940
01:45:28,600 --> 01:45:30,880
around me.
I don't, I never feel better

1941
01:45:30,880 --> 01:45:33,120
about doing that.
Like I don't walk out, you know,

1942
01:45:33,280 --> 01:45:35,720
I don't walk away and be like,
that was a full experience.

1943
01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:38,560
I walk away and I'm like, what?
What did I just do?

1944
01:45:38,560 --> 01:45:41,560
Like where did the time just go?
Yeah, absolutely.

1945
01:45:41,920 --> 01:45:44,800
And I I think of the study I was
reading not that long ago where

1946
01:45:44,800 --> 01:45:49,480
they show cortisol raising,
rising in people's bodies the

1947
01:45:49,480 --> 01:45:50,560
minute they put their phone
down.

1948
01:45:50,560 --> 01:45:53,840
And then when they pick it up,
the cortisol starts to lower.

1949
01:45:53,840 --> 01:45:54,800
Yeah.
Right.

1950
01:45:54,840 --> 01:46:00,440
And to be that physically
addicted to something terrifies

1951
01:46:00,440 --> 01:46:03,720
me.
So yeah, that's the that's the

1952
01:46:03,720 --> 01:46:05,680
first thing that comes up.
And then I, I think about, I

1953
01:46:05,680 --> 01:46:08,440
went to this retreat like six or
seven months ago where we were

1954
01:46:08,440 --> 01:46:10,800
not allowed to have our phones
for six days.

1955
01:46:11,200 --> 01:46:12,720
It's a long time.
It was a long time.

1956
01:46:12,720 --> 01:46:14,440
What was day 2 like?
Or three?

1957
01:46:14,560 --> 01:46:16,160
Because I feel like after that
it gets easier, right?

1958
01:46:16,440 --> 01:46:19,640
It did.
I like the phantom vibrate.

1959
01:46:20,120 --> 01:46:22,200
I could feel my thigh vibrate
all the time.

1960
01:46:22,400 --> 01:46:24,080
I would reach for it all the
time.

1961
01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:26,400
Someone would bring up something
I didn't understand.

1962
01:46:26,400 --> 01:46:27,680
And I'm like, oh, I want to
Google that.

1963
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:30,840
Like it's there's just so many
things throughout the day.

1964
01:46:31,640 --> 01:46:34,360
By the last day, they gave us
our phones back that night.

1965
01:46:35,160 --> 01:46:37,520
And I had just connected with
these complete strangers who,

1966
01:46:37,520 --> 01:46:39,280
like, became my family in six
days.

1967
01:46:39,280 --> 01:46:42,000
There was like this really deep
therapy retreat thing.

1968
01:46:42,680 --> 01:46:44,640
And we all were like, I don't
even want this.

1969
01:46:44,640 --> 01:46:47,680
Yeah.
And the amount of connection

1970
01:46:47,760 --> 01:46:51,000
that came as a result of not
having it and all the work that

1971
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:54,600
everybody was doing was
absolutely phenomenal.

1972
01:46:54,600 --> 01:47:00,440
And I admittedly, I feel like
I'm, I'm, I'm in a good place.

1973
01:47:02,280 --> 01:47:05,160
You're going to get you keep you
keep a smartphone from work and

1974
01:47:05,160 --> 01:47:07,240
you get a kosher phone for for
your own life.

1975
01:47:07,240 --> 01:47:09,120
Yeah, but.
No, it's it's.

1976
01:47:09,200 --> 01:47:12,160
You do it, I'll do it.
OK, We'll hold each other

1977
01:47:12,160 --> 01:47:14,240
responsible for that.
OK, We'll both, we'll get, we'll

1978
01:47:14,240 --> 01:47:16,920
go to AT&T, we'll get one of
those phones or Verizon with

1979
01:47:16,960 --> 01:47:18,560
Waze on it.
So that's because that's all you

1980
01:47:18,560 --> 01:47:20,760
really need.
And then you then you got your

1981
01:47:20,840 --> 01:47:23,680
your work phone for work and you
got your kosher phone for

1982
01:47:24,000 --> 01:47:27,240
deliver a healthy life.
And what's so sick is like.

1983
01:47:28,640 --> 01:47:30,920
You're not going to do.
It no, no, like I understand

1984
01:47:31,000 --> 01:47:32,840
with you.
Yeah, 100%.

1985
01:47:32,840 --> 01:47:38,080
I know that doing what you just
suggested would make my life so

1986
01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:39,120
much better.
Yeah, right.

1987
01:47:39,120 --> 01:47:40,400
Than my relationship with
things.

1988
01:47:40,760 --> 01:47:45,200
And there's a part of me that's
like, don't don't even look at

1989
01:47:45,200 --> 01:47:47,920
it.
Yeah, don't look at my phone.

1990
01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:52,360
It's and there's a part of me
that recognizes that like that

1991
01:47:52,360 --> 01:47:55,720
is totally valid and I I'm going
to sit with it and really think

1992
01:47:55,720 --> 01:47:57,360
about it.
So take me up on it if you if

1993
01:47:57,360 --> 01:48:00,080
you decide I.
Will, I will, because that is

1994
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:01,880
that is.
Yeah.

1995
01:48:01,960 --> 01:48:05,920
It's yeah.
I love that I have to really sit

1996
01:48:05,920 --> 01:48:08,160
with those two parts of myself
and then fight it out.

1997
01:48:09,680 --> 01:48:12,800
I'm sure it'll be fun, I'm sure
I'm sure it'll be quite do do in

1998
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:14,600
the morning.
Do it you know, in your in your

1999
01:48:14,600 --> 01:48:17,480
sunset, sunrise, sunrise
hangout, you know, just think

2000
01:48:17,480 --> 01:48:19,400
about.
That I try to that's actually

2001
01:48:19,400 --> 01:48:22,160
like one of my best friends.
She turned me on to it.

2002
01:48:22,720 --> 01:48:26,840
Like slow mornings where I'm not
looking at a screen, I'm not

2003
01:48:26,840 --> 01:48:29,560
checking emails, The first thing
I'm doing is not picking up my

2004
01:48:29,560 --> 01:48:32,080
phone.
I'm making coffee, I'm going to

2005
01:48:32,080 --> 01:48:34,520
the beach to watch the sunrise
and talking to God.

2006
01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:37,800
Like I'm doing all these things
that like really center me for

2007
01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:39,840
the day.
And then I had the mornings

2008
01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:43,400
where I pick this up and I want
to look at TikTok and I'm like,

2009
01:48:43,440 --> 01:48:48,240
and that wakes me up, you know,
and, and the way that it messes

2010
01:48:48,240 --> 01:48:50,360
with my cortisol through the
day, like it's, that's a

2011
01:48:50,360 --> 01:48:52,600
noticeable difference.
I kind of feel like I use it.

2012
01:48:52,640 --> 01:48:56,120
I, I, if I know I have to get up
and like be up and about, I'll

2013
01:48:56,120 --> 01:48:59,240
jump on my phone for a thing.
And if I know that like I have a

2014
01:48:59,240 --> 01:49:02,560
long morning ahead of me or like
it's OK, then I'll leave it on

2015
01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:04,120
the side.
And also that'll take my time.

2016
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:07,120
But like, I try to go to jujitsu
two or three times a week and

2017
01:49:07,120 --> 01:49:10,640
like, those mornings where the
alarm goes off at six and like,

2018
01:49:11,520 --> 01:49:13,680
I don't want to get up.
And I know that I know that I

2019
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:16,320
really do want to get up.
And so like, I'll hop my phone

2020
01:49:16,320 --> 01:49:18,800
and check my notifications.
It just, it just flips my brain

2021
01:49:18,800 --> 01:49:21,920
right on, you know, And I know
it's probably not even a healthy

2022
01:49:22,000 --> 01:49:23,240
fee.
Yeah, it's crazy.

2023
01:49:23,240 --> 01:49:24,680
It's crazy.
But I don't even know if it's a

2024
01:49:24,680 --> 01:49:32,200
healthy acceleration, you know,
to go from just waking up,

2025
01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:33,720
wanting to go back to sleep,
rolling over.

2026
01:49:33,720 --> 01:49:36,040
And they'd be like, like, you
know, what notifications did I

2027
01:49:36,040 --> 01:49:37,080
get?
What's happening on what's

2028
01:49:37,080 --> 01:49:41,560
happening in the world on
Twitter, you know, and like, but

2029
01:49:41,920 --> 01:49:43,600
yeah, I think I prefer for it to
not be the case.

2030
01:49:43,600 --> 01:49:45,680
So what's next for you?
What do we hope?

2031
01:49:45,680 --> 01:49:47,480
What do we hope?
Is it going to be the case in a

2032
01:49:47,480 --> 01:49:49,880
year or five or ten?
What are we?

2033
01:49:49,880 --> 01:49:52,880
What are we generally generally
hoping for?

2034
01:49:54,880 --> 01:50:00,200
I that's such a good question.
I like, I think I, I will always

2035
01:50:00,240 --> 01:50:02,160
in some way have like a private
practice.

2036
01:50:02,160 --> 01:50:04,920
Like I love that I get to do
this.

2037
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:10,000
I think I said earlier, I'm
training in somatic experiencing

2038
01:50:10,000 --> 01:50:12,520
and psychodrama right now.
Like there are two modalities

2039
01:50:12,520 --> 01:50:16,840
that I find so exciting,
especially with doing this work.

2040
01:50:18,080 --> 01:50:22,120
So I know that those are my next
kind of like credential

2041
01:50:22,160 --> 01:50:26,200
accomplishments.
I want to go back to school.

2042
01:50:26,520 --> 01:50:31,760
Yeah, I want to, I want to go
back to school, either APHD or a

2043
01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:35,440
DSWI want to do research and
practice.

2044
01:50:36,040 --> 01:50:38,080
I want to do research around
arousal template.

2045
01:50:38,760 --> 01:50:42,560
I just this fascinating
endlessly fascinates me.

2046
01:50:44,120 --> 01:50:48,960
And yeah, and I, I would also
one day, like I, I wanna, I

2047
01:50:48,960 --> 01:50:50,840
wanna teach.
You want to teach.

2048
01:50:51,120 --> 01:50:53,040
I do.
Teaching is awesome, by the way.

2049
01:50:53,840 --> 01:50:57,400
I love it.
Yeah, I, I've done it in like

2050
01:50:57,400 --> 01:50:59,600
group therapy where I'm like
teaching concepts and things

2051
01:50:59,600 --> 01:51:01,880
like that.
But like to, I had a professor

2052
01:51:01,880 --> 01:51:03,840
who said to me, he's like, I
knew I wanted to help people and

2053
01:51:03,840 --> 01:51:05,480
I wanted to teach people how to
help people.

2054
01:51:05,480 --> 01:51:09,320
And I was like that you just
articulated exactly what I want.

2055
01:51:09,440 --> 01:51:10,280
Yeah, so.
Beautiful.

2056
01:51:10,280 --> 01:51:11,320
Yeah.
Well, I think it'd be a great

2057
01:51:11,320 --> 01:51:12,840
teacher.
I think, I think it'd be, I

2058
01:51:12,840 --> 01:51:14,120
think it'd be.
I think it'd be wonderful.

2059
01:51:15,440 --> 01:51:16,560
Even just based on this
conversation.

2060
01:51:16,560 --> 01:51:19,480
There's a class, you know,
there's a 2 hour, it's 2 hour

2061
01:51:19,480 --> 01:51:22,280
master class.
So master class, it's a 2 hour

2062
01:51:22,280 --> 01:51:26,200
class on, on all this.
I think it's really, I think

2063
01:51:26,200 --> 01:51:33,000
that these conversations help
with the feeling of loneliness

2064
01:51:33,000 --> 01:51:36,280
and isolation and that I'm the
only person in the world that

2065
01:51:36,280 --> 01:51:38,440
has this problem.
And I'm the only person in the

2066
01:51:38,440 --> 01:51:43,040
world that no one gets what it's
like to, you know, to like, have

2067
01:51:43,040 --> 01:51:45,480
these urges.
And like, you're just a person.

2068
01:51:45,560 --> 01:51:48,000
You're just a guy, you're just a
girl, you're just a man, you're

2069
01:51:48,000 --> 01:51:49,640
just a woman.
You're just, you're just an

2070
01:51:49,640 --> 01:51:51,200
adult.
You're just, you're just a human

2071
01:51:51,200 --> 01:51:53,360
being.
And like we have that.

2072
01:51:53,360 --> 01:51:57,600
And like, you can like, like, I
know that, you know, I know that

2073
01:51:57,600 --> 01:52:02,600
it's hard, you know that it's
hard, you know, and we can work

2074
01:52:02,600 --> 01:52:05,880
through it together.
And I think that bit of hope is

2075
01:52:05,880 --> 01:52:07,720
just so valuable.
Absolutely.

2076
01:52:08,200 --> 01:52:11,560
And I, yeah, I love that.
Thank you.

2077
01:52:11,800 --> 01:52:12,960
Chris, thanks so much for coming
on now.

2078
01:52:12,960 --> 01:52:15,120
I really appreciate it.
It's such a pleasure and I hope

2079
01:52:15,120 --> 01:52:16,920
we use this again.
We will do this again, I'm sure.

2080
01:52:16,920 --> 01:52:20,200
And as we're going different
points, you know, different

2081
01:52:20,200 --> 01:52:22,440
points in life and as you're up
to different things and learning

2082
01:52:22,440 --> 01:52:25,440
new things and hope you text me
and be like, Hey, I just you

2083
01:52:25,440 --> 01:52:27,120
know, I got some fun new things
that I want to do.

2084
01:52:27,160 --> 01:52:29,560
I want to talk about.
We can do podcast again.

2085
01:52:29,560 --> 01:52:32,400
I would love, but this will be
next time, next time I have to

2086
01:52:32,400 --> 01:52:34,840
come up to you make that trip up
to West Palm.

2087
01:52:34,840 --> 01:52:35,800
But thanks so much for doing
this.

2088
01:52:35,800 --> 01:52:37,840
I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much.

2089
01:52:37,840 --> 01:52:38,360
Bye everyone.