Psychology Series 7: Tim Wienecke / Masculinity, Anxiety, US AirForce

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together

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and we are live with Tim
Winnick.

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Winnick, Winnicky.
Winnicky. close.

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OK, well, it wasn't too easy I
guess, but thank you so much for

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making the time.
I'm so happy to have you here.

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Welcome.
Thank you.

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Thank you, man.
Good to see you again.

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Of course, good to see you too.
I, I, we had that initial phone

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call other day and I got really
excited because I was like, you

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know what, this sounds like it's
going to be a lot of fun.

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One of the things that
immediately jumped out, we're

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going to kind of go through, I
guess, a little bit of life

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story and a little bit of, you
know, your thoughts and, and

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your, your expertise
specifically in the, I guess,

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therapy and psychology areas.
But one thing that jumped out

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immediately was your emphasis in
your profiles and online

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presence on masculinity, because
I feel like masculinity has

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become a little bit of a
dangerous word to be just

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throwing around and to really,
you know, particularly identify

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yourself with, you know, and so
it either.

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And so it must be extremely
intentional, I'm sure.

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And so I kind of would love to
start by just diving into what

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how you got started, you know,
fully embracing that kind of

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term and what it means to you
and what it means for, you know,

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for men around the country and
around the world today.

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So nothing broad or big, not
much, right?

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I let you.
I let you run with that however

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you want to.
That's great man.

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So I my background was I worked
on interpersonal violence and

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sexual assault prevention for
about 6 years before I got into

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doing my clinical work.
And so that put me on the front

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end of me too.
Right when me Too started, I was

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already working in survivor
services and the like and it was

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really excited when me too
kicked off.

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A lot of guys doing a lot of bad
things.

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The numbers tend to be
misleading when they when we

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think of men, right?
So we know that one in three

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women survive some kind of
sexual misconduct, one in four

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men survive some kind of sexual
misconduct.

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And we know that men are
primarily the perpetrators.

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There are female perpetrators.
That's certainly a story and we

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need to be aware of that.
And the vast majority of the

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time when someone's hurting
somebody in that way, it's a

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man.
And so as me too progressed, it

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started to kind of weigh on me a
little bit in how we were

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framing things.
And yeah, if somebody sexual

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assaults somebody, if somebody
abuses somebody, we absolutely

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need to address that.
We absolutely need to do things

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about that.
There needs to be better

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accountability.
And these things need to stop

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happening to women and men
across the board.

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But the numbers are really
misleading.

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That one in three and one in
four number almost makes you

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feel like one in three of the
guys you meet are perpetrated.

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And that's not true.
It takes about 10 people coming

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forward for one perpetrator to
have any consequence for what

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they do because it's an
incredibly difficult and

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unaligned crime to the way our
justice system works.

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We have the beauty of innocence
and innocent until proven

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guilty, which leaves us in this
place where all the things that

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you want to do after something
like that happens, gets rid of

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evidence, makes it hard to
prosecute.

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And so as me too progress as we
started really seeing people get

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treated and ostracized like they
were an assaulter, like somebody

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who'd done these horrible
things.

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And there needs to be a range of
consequence, right?

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Like a 17 year old boy who's
acting kind of creepy because

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he's first noticing somebody for
the first time his life, he

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needs some guidance.
He needs some correction, right.

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But maybe don't treat him like
somebody who grabbed a girl on a

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bus.
Yeah, right.

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Yeah, yeah.
And So what I noticed is the

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guys that were talking about
this stuff before that we're

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getting any kind of traction in
the public, I tended to be men's

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rights guys.
They were guys that were blaming

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women for the problems that were
saying that the ways that men

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needs to be men are ways that
tend to hurt people or tend to

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make people smaller.
And we've just started in the

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last few years seen people move
away from that, where now we're

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talking about, yes, there's a
lot of problems in the world.

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Yes, we have a problem with
sexual assault and violence and

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men are struggling as well.
And we need to figure out how to

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integrate these struggles into a
more cohesive whole so that we

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all can get better.
It's not a matter of

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competition.
It's not a matter of women need

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this and men needs this, it's
that if we want these things as

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a society, these are the things
we need to be doing and that's

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been really exciting the last
few years.

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Right.
I guess the, I guess what I

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think the issue that maybe a lot
of people felt is that the

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association that people felt
that they had, you know, with

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manlyhood or masculinity equals
domination in some kind of form

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or the other.
And like the more power, the

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more dominating you are.
It's an expression of, of how

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great quote UN quote great you
are and that and you know, and

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you know, I could understand, I
can't even understand how people

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get from point A to point B.
If someone's going to be a

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caretaker, if someone's going to
be a protector, it's a very,

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very slippery slope to go from
the protector to the dominator.

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I feel like, especially if
you're not, even if you're not

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particularly self aware.
And you know, the other curse, I

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guess that until the last 1520
years, if not more, has been

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that we're not usually very
self-conscious of our actions,

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you know, and we don't tend to
delve into our behavior and, and

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consider it and then consider
the roots of it.

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So I, I can imagine that that's
probably the premise of where a

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lot of the where some of the
issues at least start popping

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up.
Yeah, I think so.

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The the book I'm working on, I'm
trying to figure out how to talk

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about these things from a
generational perspective.

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But the, I think the main way
that it all started to go kind

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of badly is when we moved men
away from the dad role into the

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provider role and put women out
of a provider role entirely into

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a caretaking role where we kind
of siloed by gender the

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different ways that we're
supposed to be in the world.

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And that's had some really
unfortunate consequences because

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we now know and all the data
consistently backs up, you need

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kind of two parents or two
people doing two different

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things, right?
And one parent can do it all.

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Like this is not a dig at single
parents, right?

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It's just harder.
But the feminine is the

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nurturing aspect, right?
Like, I love you, be safe.

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You're always safe here.
And then the masculine is, hey,

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the world can be dangerous.
Show me how high you can climb.

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Show me how you can be safe in
the world.

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Show me what you can do.
And kids need both, right?

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They need the safety and the
push to go explore.

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And one person has a really hard
time doing that.

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And by undervaluing the
masculine, we've really set it

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up where guys only had to be a
provider, which is why we got so

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far away from our social impact,
right?

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Hey, if I'm making money and
we've got a house and groceries

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you don't like, that's all I
need to do.

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Yeah.
And there's two really sad

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things about that.
It gets rid of dad, right?

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And dads are awesome.
Yeah.

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They're they're needed.
It's a wonderful thing to have,

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yeah.
And it means that as a guy's

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life progresses, at some point
he's not going to be producing

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anymore.
It also means that women that.

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Want to go and be?
Producing that aren't

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necessarily as interested in
nurturing are going to have a

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hard time finding a guy to fill
any other role, right?

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Like the dream of feminism that
we all get to choose, right?

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We all get to choose some way
that we want to be and build our

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families.
And if you want to choose super

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traditional, that's fine.
If you want to choose the other

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end, that's totally fine.
But by undervaluing that, dad,

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we really kind of hamstrung
men's emotional development

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because then what happens is
you've got a little bunch of

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little boys being taught how
they experience emotion by

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women, and it's a little
different, right?

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Yeah.
The way the guys process is a

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little different.
If you hear, like, let's say

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that you're talking to a friend
and it's a woman and she goes

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through a breakup, she's going
to say, I felt so betrayed.

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I felt so abandoned.
And she's going to name a bunch

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of feelings and really have
like, a process down.

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A guy is going to say, she
ripped out my heart.

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Both of those are correct ways
to describe it.

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Right.
Right.

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We just tend to undervalue the
masculine way of describing it

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instead of treating it as a
valid and additional way that

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maybe we need some nuance to get
to.

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It's the, it's the beauty of
having like a group of people

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and the different nuances and
the clarity of a situation.

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By having the multiple ways to
talk about it.

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I think we're starting to get
back to guys being able to kind

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of speak to what they
experience, yeah, while being

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able to translate it.
Right.

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Yeah, I was going to, I was
going to actually say, I bet

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part of a big part of your job
is learning how to, is helping

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people put words to experiences
or emotions.

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Because until they have a way to
describe it or words describe

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it, it kind of just bounces
around inside and, you know,

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it's that's one of the beauties
of storytelling, in my opinion.

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General when it comes to music
or books or movies is like you,

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they tend to be archetypes for,
you know, very primitive and

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human examples.
But things that rage in us that,

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you know, that we put we, we
assigned an enormous amount of

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value to.
So, you know, heartbreak or, you

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know, feeling of our dreams
aren't going to be able to be

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accomplished or feeling of, you
know, despair.

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And you have a very raw
description of that, that you

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know, by, by a poet or by a
musician or by an, by, by a

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filmmaker.
And you watch and you're like,

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that's me in there.
And, and whoa, I relate.

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And I get that.
And then all of a sudden it

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helps us.
And then and then it helps us

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learn to fully experience those
feelings with the actual words

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and images and, and, and put it
in a way that we can actual and

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actually process and and build
with and actually hopefully do

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something about.
Absolutely.

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We've been thinking in stories
since we could draw on walls as

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a species, right?
The I had a colleague on and we

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were talking about kind of the
communication of emotion and

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empathy.
And one of the ways that's being

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kind of pushed out now, which I
think is beautiful, is rather

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than saying I feel this or it
felt like this, it's you know

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that feeling when you know that,
You know that feeling when you

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get that first cup of coffee in
the morning and you feel ready

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for the day.
It's an invitation.

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Right.
Well, and it's something we can

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all relate to and that that
experience might be different

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for you.
You might describe in a

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different emotional language,
but we both get how nice like a

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good morning is.
Yeah, right.

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Yeah.
And so the, the storytelling is

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a really powerful way to help
people heal, right?

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The, there's an entire
therapeutic approach called

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narrative therapy, which I do
because it tends to work really

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well with men.
It's one of the more data-driven

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modalities for guys.
Can you essentially?

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Yeah, so essentially you come in
and it's predicated on like the

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hero's journey, right?
Like you were talking about when

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I when guys call and they're
looking at therapy, I kind of

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describe it.
So what was your favorite action

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movie as a kid?
Right.

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Like how?
How old are you?

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I am almost 30.
Almost 30, yeah.

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So I'm gonna, I'm gonna guess
like Fast and Furious movies

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where maybe.
The thing when?

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You like what was the action
movies?

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A little bit more into the Iron
Man Marvel world.

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Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
So so the.

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Heroes journey around.
Action movies are very similar

227
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,440
and there's a reason why the
formula works so well for boys.

228
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,880
It's guy goes out, guy gets his
teeth kicked in by something and

229
00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:39,000
lose.
Yeah.

230
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,560
Guy goes on some kind of
training montage, hopefully with

231
00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:42,960
some little old man yelling at
him.

232
00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:44,160
Rocky.
Sure.

233
00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,960
Right, Yoda.
Right.

234
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,120
Yeah, Yoda, of course.
Harry Potter, Tony Tony Stark's

235
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,320
AI, Right.
Like, whatever it is.

236
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:54,080
Yeah.
And then they come back and they

237
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:55,760
beat the initial challenge.
Yeah.

238
00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,000
Yeah.
And So what narrative therapy

239
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,560
aims to do is to help you make
your story make sense.

240
00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:02,040
Awesome.
Right.

241
00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:03,800
What did you learn from what
you've been through?

242
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,920
Where do you want to go and what
do you need to do to be ready

243
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:08,280
for it when it comes back
around?

244
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,120
Because our lives tend to have a
very cyclical set of challenges,

245
00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:14,040
right?
Like the the same kind of ways

246
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,400
we struggle, we've struggled
with since we were 5.

247
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,920
And so by naming the struggle,
naming what you've learned and

248
00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,440
naming who's helping you, right?
Who you're supporting, people

249
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,960
who, who are guiding you through
this process, who's backing you

250
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,080
up?
Who's on your Avengers?

251
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:34,200
It's a really wonderful way to
reframe pain into some kind of

252
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,800
purpose.
The the quote I most like is

253
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:38,560
pain without purpose is just
suffering.

254
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,160
Wow, it's a great line.
Yeah, and anything you learn has

255
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:44,600
some pain to it, right?
You like you.

256
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,560
You don't learn without failure.
You don't learn without some

257
00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:49,040
struggle.
Anything worth doing in life has

258
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:50,520
some struggle between you and
it.

259
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,560
Otherwise it doesn't feel very
worthwhile.

260
00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:55,240
Like if I just walk on and
didn't have to try, I don't

261
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,960
value it as much whatever it is.
Yeah.

262
00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:03,840
I think that's actually, that's
actually a it's leading to a

263
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:09,280
huge issue in today's world.
I think because I know from

264
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:15,760
let's say my own experience that
we kind of, we obviously assign

265
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,520
value to productivity, right?
And it's become a lot easier

266
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,680
today to accomplish a lot with a
lot less effort than it's ever

267
00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,000
been required.
You know, And whether that be

268
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,800
because of AI, whether that be
because of just the convenience

269
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,480
of like at the end of the day,
we are an incredibly wealthy and

270
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,240
fortunate country that just like
the the problems we have are,

271
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,720
you know, thank God, you know,
they, you know, I mean,

272
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,040
compared, relatively speaking,
you know, like we have, we have,

273
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,560
we have great issues as a
country relative to, you know,

274
00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:48,520
lots of other places that we
could be living right now.

275
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,920
And you know, and one and one of
the issues is that because

276
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,720
people, I think or myself
speaking, you know, I say, oh,

277
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,320
well, I want to be XY and Z
productive this week.

278
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,600
And then I accomplished that.
But it doesn't require an

279
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,560
enormous amount of work for me.
I almost find myself figuring

280
00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,440
out what to do with myself, you
know, and, and, and you go

281
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,600
through swings where you find
vices or, or, you know, you

282
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,600
could either be healthy and
productive, or you could say,

283
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,560
OK, well, I got an hour now I
could have a beer and I could

284
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:20,240
sit outside and smoke a Jay.
Or you say I could go for a jog

285
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,680
and I could, you know, read a
book for half an hour and, you

286
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:24,760
know, I could really do
something.

287
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:26,360
That's, that's, that's, that's,
that's challenging.

288
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,000
Or think of, you know, try to
build something or create

289
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,520
something and you have this
time.

290
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,800
So the productivity is there and
then you kind of have this

291
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,200
challenge like, but I'm not
actually challenging myself.

292
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,160
I'm not doing that work.
And like, I think what you said,

293
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,160
like anything that's really
worth doing has to have hardness

294
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,000
involved in it.
And I think it's really easy to

295
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,880
go through day-to-day life for a
lot of people without actually

296
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,720
having any kind of challenges at
all.

297
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,720
A lot of times, you know, and,
but, or to, to even not even

298
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:57,840
realize the kind of challenges
were happening, you know, like,

299
00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,320
you know, and then I guess, and
I'm sure you got a lot of this.

300
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,240
We could talk a lot about this,
I'm sure, with doom scrolling or

301
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,560
social media presence as opposed
to, as opposed to, you know,

302
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,840
finding something long term
that, you know, we, I, I, I

303
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,240
mentioned that junk food versus
healthy food, you know, in terms

304
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,480
of everything that we consume.
So what do you?

305
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:16,600
What do you?
What are similar thoughts on

306
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,920
that?
Well, so it's a few things.

307
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:25,000
We work about the same amount,
if maybe even a little less than

308
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,840
we did in the 70s, right?
And the 70s was kind of the last

309
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,640
decade before technology really
started to come into our lives

310
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,000
and make it so that
entertainment was passive,

311
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:37,560
right?
Right.

312
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,440
So before, like television,
before radio, if you wanted to

313
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,600
have some kind of entertainment,
it was generally you were kind

314
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,200
of engaged in something.
You were talking to people, you

315
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,840
were playing a game, you were
doing a hobby.

316
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,760
And so before, it wasn't so much
that your hobbies had to be

317
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,600
productive, right?
It was that they had to be

318
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,800
engaged.
Now a lot of our hobbies and

319
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,440
entertainment are you sit there
and sit back and the the world

320
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,200
does for you.
You don't have to engage.

321
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,840
And so the.
Only thing exactly.

322
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,440
And so the the main difference
in why we feel so lonely is

323
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,720
we're scrolling.
We're spending about two hours

324
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,120
more on average in front of
screens than we did in the 90s.

325
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,200
And then people are exhausted.
They are feeling isolated.

326
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,400
But then when a buddy calls or
texts and says, hey, man, you

327
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:27,880
wanna go?
You wanna go do something?

328
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,000
No, man, I'm tired.
It's been a long week at work.

329
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,040
Yeah, what is?
That no, it's that your your

330
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,080
dopamine is getting crushed by
your phone.

331
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,080
That what it is.
Yeah.

332
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,520
So the whole thing with screens
is and I I really want to be

333
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,040
careful here.
Like we we're not going to put

334
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:45,200
the genie back in the box,
right?

335
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,680
Like technology is wonderful.
You and I are able to connect

336
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,760
from Florida to Colorado because
of technology.

337
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,440
This is wonderful, right?
We would have never met without

338
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,320
technology, right?
And if you're just on your phone

339
00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,560
scrolling TikTok, you're burning
energy to do so.

340
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,040
You're burning mental capacity.
And so then after doing that for

341
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,319
an hour and somebody calls, you
really don't have it in you to

342
00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:07,400
connect in a way that you want
to.

343
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,880
You are tired, but it feels
soothing because it it's

344
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,200
basically making your mind feel
like it is doing something to

345
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,800
entertain itself.
And so when that happens, it

346
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,520
really starts to limit our
ability to connect.

347
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,560
And we all kind of are there
now.

348
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,680
You know, we're all very living,
very contained lives.

349
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,040
We're all at home in front of
the screen or on at home in

350
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,760
front of something.
Whereas before you'd be home,

351
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,440
but if you wanted to go do
something, you had to go out and

352
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,160
do it.
You had to be around people.

353
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,200
You had to have social friction
to make things happen.

354
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,000
Yeah.
And and so the way that I try to

355
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,320
frame it for people is
technology is great, use it to

356
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,320
connect, right?
If you're, if you're going to

357
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,400
get on Tic Tac, that's great.
What are you learning?

358
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:49,760
Like who are you watching?
Who are you having a

359
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,200
relationship with?
And I think that's the other

360
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,280
hard part is these parasocial
relationships, right?

361
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:55,240
Like you and I are building,
right?

362
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,800
We both have podcast.
There are people that when they

363
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,320
hear our voice, they feel a
little bit like they've got a

364
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:05,160
friend, right?
But but they don't, we don't.

365
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:06,840
It's not a back and forth right
It.

366
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,600
It's lovely.
It's lovely to hear people have

367
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,920
a conversation, but it's not
having a conversation.

368
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,600
Correct.
And you feel like you are

369
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,200
though, you feel and I, I feel
like, but that that goes even

370
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,000
before podcasts, how many people
thought the cast of Cheers or

371
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,640
Friends or Frasier or Seinfeld
were their best friends in the

372
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,160
entire world?
Because you feel like you're

373
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,200
just dropping in on their, on
their lives all the time, you

374
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,600
know?
Yeah, fill some gaps, so.

375
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:39,120
I think one of the big things
that we're we're doing wrong is

376
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:42,480
we've made productivity too much
of A focus to the point where

377
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,480
it's broken our productivity.
I can't remember what study it

378
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,080
was, but it it really resonated
where five years ago Americans

379
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:52,600
worked more than medieval
peasants.

380
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,520
Wow.
Yeah, like the the whole system

381
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:02,880
of farming is, it's farming is
very hard for a month or two, a

382
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:03,960
year.
Yeah.

383
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,040
And then it's anxiety provoking
because you're out of control,

384
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:08,920
right?
Like once things are in the

385
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,200
ground and you're waiting on the
weather to see what happens,

386
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:12,680
there's some actions you can
take along the way.

387
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,320
But otherwise, you're just kind
of like, please don't have a

388
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,120
drought.
Right, right.

389
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:19,280
Yeah.
And then you get to go and spend

390
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:20,480
the rest of your life
connecting.

391
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,240
You get to be in the other
things that make for building a

392
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,640
life.
And it was usually around like

393
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,040
shared labor.
Right.

394
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:29,200
Right.
For us to have a home, we had to

395
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,080
have other people that were
willing to work on the home.

396
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,560
It's part of why I.
Have the happiest kids are the

397
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:40,600
ones that do chores.
Yeah, and I believe it as

398
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:41,600
someone that does a lot of.
Right.

399
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,040
If you don't, If you don't.
Feel like you're.

400
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,800
Right.
Well, if you're, if you're not

401
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,440
contributing to your house, it
doesn't feel like a home.

402
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,240
It feels like something of
service to you.

403
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,960
Correct, correct, correct this
by, by, by me, by me

404
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:58,360
participating in it, I'm sharing
with it and creating a bond and

405
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:01,640
an investment and kind of create
making it an extension of

406
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,480
myself.
By the amount of effort that I

407
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,720
put into it, actually, I tell a
lot of my friends that that are

408
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,760
having hard times in general.
I'm like some of the best things

409
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,320
that you can do.
Just my opinion.

410
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,520
Like I found just to get myself
out of a slump, set the bed,

411
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,960
clean the room up, you know,
wash a couple of dishes and go

412
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:17,640
for a little walk.
And like, all of a sudden you

413
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:18,920
just feel like a different human
being.

414
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,360
And like, you meant even like
you could be mumbling to

415
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,400
yourself and rumbling and
grumbling and saying, you know,

416
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,360
that you want to be in a bad
mood and you savor it.

417
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,800
And like, but like, if you want
to like really like, kind of

418
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,360
just snap yourself out.
Participating in the world

419
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:34,000
around you is is such a way to
just get you right back into

420
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,680
things, I feel like.
Yeah, our mind is really good at

421
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:44,120
spinning itself, right.
And so it anxiety and depression

422
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:47,520
are we, we've kind of
misappropriated them a little

423
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:48,920
bit.
Like those are clinical terms.

424
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,920
There are, there's a list of
symptoms that you need to meet

425
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,240
to and then severity criteria,
right?

426
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,400
There's like mild, moderate and
severe.

427
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:02,600
And we've started to mistake
like sadness or tired as

428
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,040
depression, like, oh, I'm
depressed.

429
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:05,120
No, you're tired.
You worked all day.

430
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:06,840
It's OK that like things slow
down for you.

431
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,680
This isn't, you don't have to,
you're tired or for anxiety.

432
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,440
We've misappropriated stress,
but stress is a great thing.

433
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,400
Stress is why you and I were on
time for the podcast.

434
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,000
It's why I got up and showered
this morning.

435
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,920
It's why I'm doing some prep for
my first patient that I'm

436
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,960
working on this morning after
our interview, right?

437
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,000
That's all stress.
They did a, they did a big study

438
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,040
back in the early odds where
they figured out that they'd

439
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,920
been killing guys.
So the cardiologist in the 70s

440
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,360
and 80s, when we started to
figure out heart disease, we

441
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:44,840
would look at it and go, hey,
man, your heart's struggling,

442
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,440
you're too stressed at work, you
need to not stress or you're

443
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,280
going to die.
And so they made all these guys

444
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,880
stop working.
Imagine this back in the 70s,

445
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,360
when a guy's entire social
support, entire social life was

446
00:21:57,360 --> 00:21:58,480
at work.
Yeah.

447
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,000
Right.
Most of those guys died within

448
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,120
two years of retirement.
I bet.

449
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,120
And it was because they were
made afraid of stress.

450
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,440
So when they did longevity
studies with a bunch of 90 year

451
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,640
olds and asked those 90 year
olds, hey, what does stress mean

452
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,040
to you?
They're like, oh, it's great.

453
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:15,160
It means I got something to do
today.

454
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:17,560
Like, yeah, it's just I got, I
got to get out of the house.

455
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,640
I got to do these things.
And So what happens is by making

456
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,080
us afraid of stress, we turn
stress into anxiety.

457
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:24,520
Because when you're afraid,
everything tenses up.

458
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,200
Your blood vessels tighten, you
kind of freeze in a moment.

459
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,640
You're waiting for the danger to
end.

460
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,080
Whereas when you're stressed and
you're like, I got stuff to do,

461
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:33,840
everything opens up.
You feel ready, you feel like

462
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,280
you're going to go.
And so by misappropriating these

463
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,560
things into these clinical terms
like, oh, I'm anxious.

464
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,040
No, like you're, you're
stressed.

465
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,800
That's OK, I'm anxious.
No, you're worried.

466
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,240
Worried's a really healthy
emotion.

467
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,240
Are you planning and does your
plan reduce your worry?

468
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,360
That's a healthy response.
That's how we built this house,

469
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:55,600
right?
We have this because we were

470
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,840
worried about the rain, right?
It works out.

471
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,720
And so you're, you're absolutely
right in that by getting stuck

472
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,920
in our own head around our
problems instead of either being

473
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,000
able to sit in them comfortably
or have action that makes us

474
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,720
feel like we're positively
impacting our life, we convince

475
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,240
ourselves that we are ill.
And so then we become I'll.

476
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,680
I think in addition to that,
which I think is for sure the

477
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,680
case, I also, I, I, I can't help
but also think again, back to we

478
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:33,000
said earlier that the words that
we choose to use to describe

479
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,200
our, ourselves, our state of
mind is also very important.

480
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,680
You know, it might, you know, my
wife will be like, you know,

481
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,760
there'll be times where my wife
will come home and she's like,

482
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,840
you look stressed.
Do you look anxious?

483
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,120
Like I had, I had a long day,
you know, I had a couple of

484
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:48,680
sales calls that are, you're
still up in the air.

485
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,080
I got to, I got to work out, but
like, I'm fine, you know, like,

486
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,800
you know, I'm good.
And, and to to kind of replace

487
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,560
those words with other, you
know, with words that give me a

488
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,760
little bit more autonomy and
give me a little bit more put,

489
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,920
put power into my own hands to
kind of decide what to how to

490
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,600
respond to whatever is going on
around me.

491
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,200
I think makes a big difference.
And I think that, you know,

492
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:16,120
having used words before, you
know, but I'm so burned out, I'm

493
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:18,360
so burned out.
I, I find myself, you know,

494
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:22,000
being burned out as opposed to,
I need a 10 minute break and

495
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,360
I'll get right back to it, you
know, and just, and, and they

496
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:26,800
mean the same thing.
And they could be the exact same

497
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,120
issue, you know, but by telling
myself I need, I need a rest as

498
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:34,000
opposed to I'm burnt out.
It, it fundamentally changes the

499
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,440
way that I perceive the rest of
my day going or the rest of my

500
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,520
week even, you know, and it even
gives me excuses to go ahead

501
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,400
and, you know, give my, you
know, give myself a break.

502
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,440
I don't know if I necessarily
want or deserve yet.

503
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,000
You know, just by using certain
terminology and certain.

504
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,720
Deserve Let's talk about that.
So help me understand what it

505
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,960
means to deserve a break.
Like I, I think this is where

506
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,320
that provider role hits, right?
You were raised to be a

507
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,360
provider.
So if you're not producing, you

508
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:11,920
don't deserve a break, right?
If I'm not making the most of my

509
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,960
time and potential that I do not
deserve a break yet.

510
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,880
Yes, but that could mean a lot
of things, right?

511
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,600
And I, I try to be very balanced
about it.

512
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,640
So, you know, you know, for
example, I, I like to, I, I, I

513
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,000
really work very hard to look at
money as a means to an end.

514
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,320
I look at like a car, you know,
money is only as good as a

515
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,640
destination that I have to get
to, but to accumulate it for no

516
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,400
reason is, you know, generally
tends to compromise other

517
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,520
aspects of my life, like my
marriage or like my ability to

518
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,400
raise my kids or my ability to
even be self expressive and to

519
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,560
be creative and to practice my,
you know, my hobbies and the

520
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,200
things that I love.
And so, you know, I'll, I'll

521
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,760
have a minimal, I said minimum
sales mark, I try to hit every

522
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,040
week and then minimum podcast
round of work I try to do every

523
00:25:58,040 --> 00:25:59,800
week.
And I try to give myself, I try

524
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,920
to be fair to myself, but to try
to be as balanced as possible.

525
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,480
And then you have the
extracurriculars that are me, I

526
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,440
guess, are more laid back and a
little bit more geared towards

527
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,120
recharging.
But you know, you don't recharge

528
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:15,000
your battery every time it goes
down to 80%.

529
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,640
You know, you go, you can charge
your battery.

530
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,720
Sometimes it hits 20, sometimes
it hits 15.

531
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,680
So it depends on the week, I
guess.

532
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,400
But that's typically the way I
look at things.

533
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,280
Yeah, I mean, you're a really
energetic guy that's doing a lot

534
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,360
right.
So you my read on it is you're a

535
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:33,480
little anxious most of the time.
Sure.

536
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,200
Like the the stress of it trying
to get done, There's like, and

537
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:38,720
it's because things are
complicated.

538
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,880
We've built this world where
things are immensely

539
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,600
complicated, where we're
designed for a very simple

540
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,920
world, right?
We're bio socially designed to

541
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,920
run around in groups of 20
people looking for food and

542
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,640
shelter and otherwise hanging
out and having a good time.

543
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,280
And don't get me wrong, I love
my house.

544
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:56,760
I love all this.
But now all of a sudden,

545
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,960
everything about us is tied to
things that are a little bit out

546
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,360
of our control.
So money is more important than

547
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:05,960
your house and your livelihood.
It's why you could afford that

548
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,240
shirt.
It's why you and my's beards

549
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,880
look really nice, right?
We're trying to present a

550
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,400
certain status because that's
important in our culture and

551
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,200
money is tied to that.
Right.

552
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,320
So there's not a right or a
wrong way that the, the way that

553
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,600
I like to look at it is imagine
that you're like on a whitewater

554
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,400
raft, right?
And you're going down this river

555
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,160
and in the middle of the river,
the water is nice and deep.

556
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,080
It's a very smooth ride.
But if you go to either side,

557
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,880
there's rocks and the water gets
shallow and the boat starts to

558
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,640
get knocked around.
And so on one side you've got

559
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,400
productivity, things that need
to get done, the, the hustle,

560
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,200
the push.
And on the other side, you have

561
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,680
the connection, the rest, the
relaxation.

562
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,040
You kind of need to be, you
know, in the middle, right?

563
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,280
Like I do a little bit.
I do a little bit of each.

564
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,040
My day was good.
But whenever you start like, oh

565
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,760
man, I need to grind.
Like this month, we need more

566
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,160
money because we want to do XYZ.
I'm going to pull 80 hour weeks

567
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,280
to get everything done.
I need to get done.

568
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,160
Yeah, at the end of that month,
you're probably going to be

569
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:09,640
burnt out, right?
That's too much.

570
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,400
And then let's say that you hit
that and the boat gets knocked

571
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,000
around and you're like, Oh my
God, I need to go all the way to

572
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,760
the other end.
I'm like, oh man, look that that

573
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,200
last month was really hard.
I need a break.

574
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,320
I'm going to take two weeks off
and then I'm going to, I'm going

575
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,080
to go to a 20 hour work week
because that's all we need,

576
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,400
right?
And then all of a sudden you're,

577
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,080
you're a little more, you're a
little like listless and you

578
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,800
don't have things bracing you
and it's too little for you,

579
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,240
right?
And then that becomes normal

580
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,080
where you're like, Oh, well, I
guess I'm just sitting here and

581
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:38,480
I don't feel good while I'm
sitting here.

582
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,560
And so it's about finding out
your individual balance and

583
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,080
reassessing it as you go.
Like, I'm sure you can relate to

584
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,920
this, right?
There's years where I'm super

585
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,840
pumped up about what I'm doing.
And so like a 50 to 60 hour a

586
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,480
week more often than not doesn't
hurt me, right?

587
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,200
I'm like, yeah, this is a push.
I'm going to like when I was in

588
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,120
grad school, right?
Like, let's go read 2000 pages

589
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,080
of academic writing a week.
This is interesting.

590
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,120
But then by the end of that
graduate program, I'm like, I

591
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,120
don't want to read anything.
I'm just going to watch Trailer

592
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,920
Park Boys or something equally
stupid because my mind needs a

593
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,920
rest, right?
Definitely, yeah.

594
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,760
It it goes better when we find
out, when we find our balances

595
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,280
and we accept that there's needs
a push, right?

596
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,240
There's these pushes and it
feels good when the push comes

597
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,840
and gets traction and we achieve
the things.

598
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,400
But then we also need the period
of consolidation.

599
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,240
Yeah, we need that period where
we like, we take what we've

600
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,320
learned, we take what we've
earned and we reconnect with our

601
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,760
people and we go, this is
wonderful.

602
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,880
Let's let's feel the
accomplishment of this and how

603
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,080
it impacts our lives.
Let's see where our lives are.

604
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,560
And now let's look for the next
push after we've consolidated,

605
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,640
after we've reconnected.
It's OK that it kind of comes

606
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,640
and goes like that.
I think the grind culture is

607
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,600
where it hurts because the
people that are most successful

608
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,600
in our culture, I would say are
manic, right?

609
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:57,800
So if you look at.
Like.

610
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,960
Dwayne Johnson or Kevin Hart,
right?

611
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,120
Those guys are awesome and I
like how they talk about things.

612
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,400
I like how they talk about in
our personal lives, but they

613
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,160
also both wake up at 4:00 in the
morning.

614
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,480
And.
They're both in the gym for an

615
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,640
hour and a half every day and
their life is incredibly

616
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,080
regimented.
And that's why they have the

617
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,160
empires they have, right?
And they do they have vampires.

618
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:21,400
They're they're multi
millionaires.

619
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,880
They're doing a lot of really
great things.

620
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,200
But for most people, that's a
pretty miserable life.

621
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,760
Wake up at 4:00 in the morning
being a grind every day.

622
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,320
Yeah, that's not what we want.
But those are who we look to as

623
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,080
men to see like, oh, what do I,
what do I want to live like?

624
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,520
I want to be like them.
Like they have things, they have

625
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,000
respect, they have acclaim and
they have competency.

626
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,560
I want that in my life.
And yeah, to be at the top end

627
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,440
of something, that's what you
have to be.

628
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,920
Because that's what some of us
can do.

629
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,440
But most of us are not those
guys.

630
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,240
Most of us aren't going to be
those guys.

631
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,360
So I would love to actually pick
you now that we're talking about

632
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,680
this, pick your mind on this.
And then I want to talk a little

633
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,040
just about your background.
But first I want to pick your

634
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,960
mind on this because it's been
on the forefront of my mind for

635
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,240
a little while.
I'm going to take advantage of

636
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,080
talking to a very thought, some
of the teams to be very

637
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,520
thoughtful while I read.
So this would be great.

638
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:22,680
I, I've recently come to the
realization that I am more than

639
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:29,280
a little afraid of success and
that and the, and the demands of

640
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,320
what that would mean, you know,
the, the repercussions of

641
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,320
success, you know, and you know
this, you know, I mean, and, and

642
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:40,960
this is kind of always been in
my mind.

643
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,040
It's been in my mind for a
while.

644
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:49,120
I think I've realized that a lot
of my behaviour is rooted in

645
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,560
fear.
So I spent, I've spent a lot of

646
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:56,720
time in the last couple of
years, I said, confronting the

647
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,080
different aspects of fears,
different variations of it at

648
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,800
different points in my life.
So, you know, I was afraid to be

649
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,720
in a relationship, you know,
confront that afraid to be a

650
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,040
dad, confront that afraid to buy
a house, confront that afraid,

651
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:15,600
you know, and start and whatever
it is now it feels like the fear

652
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,840
is of success.
And I'm sure it kind of stems

653
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,840
from a place of not being sure
that I'll be able to handle with

654
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,920
what that success means.
And so like, my, my, my, my

655
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,480
concern and my hesitancy is that
will I be able to handle what

656
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,040
comes with this new world that
I'm not familiar with?

657
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,000
You know what?
And yeah, and I don't think this

658
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,920
is exclusive to me.
I think that there's, I think

659
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,960
there's a lot of people that
hold themselves back on purpose.

660
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,360
What do you?
What are your thoughts on that?

661
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:52,960
So it's.
Again, broad.

662
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,520
I'm going broad.
I'm telling you to pack whatever

663
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,000
you want.
No, you're good, man.

664
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:03,440
It Yeah.
It's so I think where people get

665
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,920
really afraid of their success
is when their success is

666
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,120
misaligned with their values and
our values change, right.

667
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,440
The way that we come at the
World at 20 needs to be

668
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,560
different than the way we come
at the world at 30 needs to be

669
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,480
different at the way we come at
the world at 4050.

670
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,720
Sixty, right, And it's not that
the things we value are

671
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,520
different, but the ways that we
want to be in service of them

672
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,560
might be different, right?
So family could be a value of

673
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:27,760
yours.
I imagine it is.

674
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:28,880
You're talking about being a
father.

675
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,320
You're talking about being a
husband, right?

676
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,360
What's a 20 year old's
commitment to family?

677
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:36,960
It's not a husband or a father
yet, right?

678
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,760
It's learning how to get things
and do things to eventually

679
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,280
become those, right?
OK, so once you've become them,

680
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:47,440
what does family?
Mean.

681
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,600
Being a father means a lot.
There's this little nugget that

682
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,560
dies if you aren't paying
attention and providing for it.

683
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,520
So all the sudden family
skyrockets, right?

684
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,640
It's not so much of A like a
learning journey anymore.

685
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,760
It's a doing journey now, right?
Right.

686
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,600
When people are afraid of
success, it's usually one of

687
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,000
three things.
They're either afraid of what

688
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,679
life in the success will be,
right?

689
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,239
So let's say that your version
of success is you want to be a

690
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,040
multimillionaire, you want to
run a podcast and you want to

691
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,040
sell things to the extent that
you're making that much money,

692
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,880
right?
And you're looking at what

693
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,520
you're doing now to do these
things.

694
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,719
But to be a multimillionaire,
you're like, oh, so I need to do

695
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,560
like 3 times what I'm doing now
for that goal.

696
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:33,840
Like that's what it's going to
take.

697
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,000
That's the grind it's going to
take.

698
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,960
And there's a party that's like,
we don't want to grind like

699
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,000
that.
That sounds awful.

700
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,239
Yeah.
So that's one, right?

701
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,239
I don't want the life required
to get the thing I think I want.

702
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,840
Sure.
Two, it's, well, what if it gets

703
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,080
easy, right?
Like, once you're a

704
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,120
multimillionaire, it's pretty
easy to keep making money,

705
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,000
right?
Once you hit a certain threshold

706
00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,960
of money, all the sudden money
starts to make itself.

707
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:02,840
Yeah.
And you're used to spending

708
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,240
50-60 hours a week on your work.
And you're like, well what do I

709
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:08,400
do if I only need 30?
Right.

710
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:10,680
What?
What happens then?

711
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,840
What's my day filled with?
Who am I without my labor?

712
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,160
Yeah, that's not what bothers me
so much.

713
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,760
And then the third one is that's
good.

714
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,840
I mean, every, it's funny.
Everybody says that until they

715
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,440
pick it apart.
Like you.

716
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,960
You strike me as a guy who
doesn't sit well, very well.

717
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:29,920
I don't still very well I
should.

718
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,720
Say, but I have a lot, but I
have a lot that I want to do,

719
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,520
you know, so if I didn't have to
worry about the money, then I

720
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,720
would still find plenty of
things to keep myself busy with.

721
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,760
Right.
And yeah, you're an energetic

722
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,000
guy, right?
And I think there's, that's the

723
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,760
distinction, right?
A lot of energetic guys get

724
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,280
overtaken with anxiety instead
of just like I like doing

725
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,680
things.
Being a guy who likes doing

726
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,080
things is great.
Being a guy who's anxious when

727
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,320
you're not doing things is not
so great.

728
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,160
Yeah.
And so the last one is, what if

729
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,080
you can't do it?
The last fear around getting

730
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,080
success is like, what if I try
and I fail?

731
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,080
What does that mean about me
then?

732
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,040
I think guys in particular were
very good at telling ourselves

733
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,640
the story of what we could.
Be my my favorite example of

734
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,640
this is Ronda Rousey, right?
Do you remember her?

735
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,480
The female UFC fighter.
Sure.

736
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,520
Yeah, Ronda Rousey's awesome.
Yeah. 70% of guys thought they

737
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,480
could take her in a fight, 70%
of men in the.

738
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,720
Country were like if I trained,
you know, and I got in shape, I

739
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:34,280
could take her, I could take
her.

740
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,240
There you can.
She was undefeated for how long

741
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:43,440
there There's no, there's no
like 95% of men at least at

742
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,040
least 95% of men absolutely
could not take Ronda Rousey.

743
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,200
That's the dumbest like rational
thing.

744
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,120
It's just irrational, right?
But we love the story about what

745
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,200
we could be, right?
I, I could, you know what, if,

746
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,240
if high school had gone
different, I could have been, I

747
00:36:58,240 --> 00:36:59,960
could have been a like a pro
player.

748
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,000
Like if I'd have just, you know,
focused in and really leaned in,

749
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,760
I could have been a pro player,
right?

750
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,760
We love that story.
And it might even be.

751
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,040
True, but it's not what's
happening now.

752
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,000
Yeah, and there's only people
that live that lot their lives.

753
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,160
And so that that anxiety comes
back.

754
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,200
Well, and then the the.
Fear of if I acknowledge that,

755
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,720
who am I right?
If I'm not an athlete, if I'm

756
00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:29,280
not an entrepreneur, if I'm not
this, who am I?

757
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,320
And that existential dread is is
crippling.

758
00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:35,440
So for you, which of those three
most resonate?

759
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:44,680
I think maybe the last one most
because the risk that I'm taking

760
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,240
a little bit more creative.
And so the consequences would be

761
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:52,400
that the things that I care most
about, which is supporting my

762
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,160
family, that would ultimately be
the hardest.

763
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,680
So, you know, let's say
hypothetically pursuing building

764
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,160
a podcast as opposed to building
a sales, you know, book, you

765
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,320
know, a book of just great
customers and clients.

766
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,520
The risk is that in 10 years
from now, you'll have a bigger

767
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,680
family that I will be able to
support them, you know, and then

768
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,000
I won't really have much of the
transferable skills either.

769
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,640
You know, I mean, what I this
is, this is fun, this is great.

770
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,840
This is a very particular set of
skills that doesn't necessarily

771
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,160
align to anything or much, you
know?

772
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:35,000
And so I guess that would be it.
But I think, I think I really

773
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,840
think it comes down, at least
for me, in just my confidence in

774
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,720
being able to maneuver my way
through the unknown.

775
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,840
I'm very comfortable with.
I'm very good and comfortable

776
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,760
with what I'm familiar with.
And I'm a lot less comfortable

777
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,520
with what I'm not familiar with.
And I have to actually remind

778
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,640
myself that I'm better at the
unfamiliar than I even give

779
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,800
myself credit for.
I just don't feel that way and

780
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,640
so I have to kind of realign
that.

781
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:09,080
So failure really hurts.
You, yeah, not, not living up to

782
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,080
myself or the people around me
for sure, but mostly myself, I

783
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,280
think at this point.
Yeah, and that's going to make

784
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,000
it hard to do new things, right?
So if I if I've never done

785
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,360
podcasting before, right?
Yeah.

786
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,600
And I listen to Diary of ACEO,
right?

787
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:25,920
Yeah.
He's got a team of, what, 10

788
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,800
guys?
He's super polished, he's super

789
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,960
smart, and he comes in amazingly
prepared.

790
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,400
And I look at that and I compare
it to my third episode I've

791
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,760
recorded, and I hold it to the
same standard.

792
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,600
I feel like crap.
Sure.

793
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,000
He's been doing it for years.
He's got a team, he's really

794
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:43,440
good at it, right?
Yeah.

795
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,240
And if that's the standard, I'm
failing.

796
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,000
So for you, right, you're like,
you're getting into podcasting.

797
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:49,920
How long have you been doing it
now?

798
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,280
A year and a month or two?
Just over a year.

799
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,040
Mm Hmm.
Yeah, so you're really like

800
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,040
finding your legs with it,
right?

801
00:39:58,040 --> 00:39:59,720
You're really good at this.
Now you've got your recording

802
00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:01,280
strategy set up.
You know how to find the right

803
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:02,720
guest.
You know how to talk to people.

804
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,440
When you look at our episode
today, how's it gonna compare to

805
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,000
your first one?
Oh man, it kills me that my

806
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,440
first one is one of my most
listen to episodes.

807
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,520
And I'm like you, you have to
start the opposite way.

808
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,240
You have to start latest first.
Not, not, not first.

809
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,960
Not first for, you know,
chronological because it was, it

810
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:24,760
was a mess, you know, when I got
started.

811
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,200
But people still like it and
download it.

812
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,120
Yeah, they do.
Yeah, it's almost like you're a

813
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:33,840
charming guy who's going to
talking to people.

814
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,920
It's almost like being in the
sales role and connecting with

815
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,920
people transferred over and
people feel that from you,

816
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:45,040
right?
So defining what success is and

817
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,880
accepting that you do not get
success or skill building.

818
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,680
Unless you're failing, if you're
not failing at something, you're

819
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,520
not pushing anything, you're not
getting better at anything.

820
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,200
If you're just doing things in
your lane of comfort where

821
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,520
there's no challenge to them,
there's no growth, right?

822
00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:06,160
And but as a society, especially
with social media, people don't

823
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,640
show you their failures.
You don't see them, right?

824
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,280
Well, you say, of course not.
But that's not how it used to be

825
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,640
before we had social media and
when we were living in groups of

826
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,200
people.
You watched people develop

827
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,960
skills.
If somebody wanted to be the

828
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,080
best singer in the village, you
heard them practicing, right?

829
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,360
You heard them in the field as
they developed out their range

830
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,400
of voice.
When someone wanted to get

831
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,160
better at woodworking, you saw
them like in the front yard,

832
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,120
whittling away on something and
then getting frustrated and

833
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:34,720
throwing it away to grab another
piece of wood.

834
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,720
Right.
It's so interesting.

835
00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:39,160
And it wasn't until like 10 or
20 years where they're like, no,

836
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,040
no, here's this awesome horse I
made in an hour.

837
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:42,600
Right.
Right.

838
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,680
But we don't see that anymore.
We don't see the Steven from

839
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,000
Diary of a CEO and what his
first few podcast looked like.

840
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,640
We see what he looks like now,
and we see the accomplished

841
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,760
professional he's become, not
the guy that it took to get

842
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,000
there.
Yeah.

843
00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,920
And that's why you're so afraid
of it, is there's this

844
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:02,800
misaligned story that we're just
supposed to be good at.

845
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,080
What?
We pick up and that's kind of

846
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:07,200
garbage, man.
It doesn't feel good.

847
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,600
Like I'm, I am.
I'm very good at getting to like

848
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,240
a 70% in most things.
Like I get really excited.

849
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,200
I pick something up and I can
get like mildly competent at it.

850
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,360
But then I'm like, look at the
effort it takes to go from

851
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,120
mildly competent to really good,
and I'm like, I.

852
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:27,400
Want to do all that?
And so it takes a lot for me to

853
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:28,600
lean in and get good at
something.

854
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,760
For you, if you pick up
something, you seem like a guy

855
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,960
that's not going to get
comfortable at all with getting

856
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,320
something to 70% that you don't
want to be the guy that gets

857
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,000
competent something.
You want to be the guy that gets

858
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,320
good at something.
And if you can't get good at

859
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,640
something, the competency
doesn't feel good.

860
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,480
Right.
I struggle with that with

861
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:49,960
guitar.
I started playing guitar late.

862
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:55,400
I started 25 or 6 almost, you
know, and, and so it's been a

863
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,440
couple of years and I had to
actually retrain myself to not

864
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,080
do this.
You know, one of Jordan

865
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,840
Peterson's great lines, I think
of all his, of all his work is

866
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:08,440
compare yourself to who you were
yesterday and not who someone

867
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,120
else is today, which is so, so
it was so crucial for me.

868
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,240
But, you know, I'd go to an open
mic and and this guy would be

869
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:18,760
playing for a fraction of the
time that I was and play way

870
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,240
better than me, you know, and
I'll be like, screw this, I'm

871
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:23,040
going home.
Or, you know, I got into the

872
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,040
Grateful Dead a couple of years
ago and I'm listening to, you

873
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,360
know, all the cover bands or
Jerry Garcia play.

874
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,240
And I'm like, what the heck am I
supposed to do with this thing?

875
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:33,280
I sound like, you know, you
know, I'm just, I'm just sitting

876
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,240
around.
I'm, I'm clunky on mechanical.

877
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:38,080
What am I doing with this?
And I have to, I have to, you

878
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,480
know, really it takes conscious
work.

879
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,280
It takes a lot of it, it, it
takes a lot of, you know, system

880
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,080
to really like intentional
thinking to really kind of push

881
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,200
myself to keep at, keep at these
things.

882
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,400
But then I, when I'm, while I'm
at it, I'm like, I see what I'm

883
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,400
doing.
Like, I, I, I see how this is

884
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,600
getting there.
You know, it'll be, it'll be

885
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:01,640
there.
He'll get there.

886
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:04,920
Well, it's the it's the hard
thing, right?

887
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:09,560
The way our mind is designed is
it categorizes things very well

888
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,720
and it if it is allowed to, it
will blow by things and make

889
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:16,920
broad sweeping generalizations
to make it so that we can

890
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,120
navigate a complex.
World.

891
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:22,120
So when most of us look out at
we go outside.

892
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,800
We think of those as trees.
We're not thinking of their

893
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,240
spruce palm, whatever they're
like, oh, I know what a tree is.

894
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:30,800
That's tree.
And we keep going, right?

895
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,160
Unless you're an arborist and
then all of a sudden you're

896
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:34,760
looking at it and all the
different tree types and

897
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,960
everything matter.
So that's why the Dunning Kruger

898
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,240
effect is the thing.
Are you familiar?

899
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,400
No.
So the Dunning Kruger effect is

900
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,200
the least you know, the more
confident you are and what you

901
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,240
know, right?
And it's a main problem with the

902
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:52,960
Internet and it's why, you know,
doing your research.

903
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,800
Hurts us so badly.
Is we spend 30 minutes on

904
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:58,920
researching something and all
the sudden we think we can argue

905
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,680
with a doctor, right?
The doctor spent 20 years to get

906
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,640
to what he knows, but we feel as
confident as he does to argue

907
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,080
that point.
Right.

908
00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:12,160
Right.
It's because our minds are

909
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:13,840
designed to let us pick up
something and move.

910
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:15,760
Like we just need enough
knowledge to move on.

911
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,000
But so that's built in US, and
now we're in an environment

912
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,640
where we have more knowledge
than we could ever assimilate,

913
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,120
and we have it in the palm of
our hand.

914
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,040
Yeah.
Right.

915
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:33,520
And so that that's one end is
that we're too easily accepting

916
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,720
of we're supposed to be good and
knowledgeable at something based

917
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:38,720
on almost no effort or
information.

918
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:42,040
And we will argue with people
who spent decades learning what

919
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,120
they've learned.
Like I have guys who have never

920
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:50,120
studied what other men do argue
with me about masculinity when

921
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,120
I've spent 10 years studying it,
diving into people's lives,

922
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,520
reading thousands of pages of
books on this, right, right.

923
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,960
Because that's how we operate.
That's how we want to function

924
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,360
in the world.
And then when it comes to skill

925
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:07,080
acquisition, we do the same
thing where we look around and

926
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:08,720
like, you want to be a, you want
to be a guitar player.

927
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,960
And I'm sure, I'm sure you're a
good one, right?

928
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,320
You've put four years in, you go
to open mics, you put yourself

929
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:17,440
out there, but you're comparing
yourself to a 30 year musician.

930
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,200
Yeah, as though that is a
reasonable comparison to have.

931
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,600
And this is a hobby for you.
This is a way for you to bring

932
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,920
joy into your life.
It's your way to share something

933
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:29,520
that you do with people you care
about.

934
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,400
That's his job.
He spends 3 to 4 hours a day,

935
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,240
every day of his life playing
that guitar.

936
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,320
How much time do you spend on
it?

937
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,080
20-30 minutes a day if I'm
lucky, if I'm in a good zone,

938
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,560
you know, sometimes an hour a
couple days a week.

939
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,520
That's huge, man.
That's a lot.

940
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:52,360
That's a lot.
That's a great hobby, man.

941
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,960
That's a that's a huge amount of
time out of your life to do

942
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,320
something you enjoy.
That's wonderful that you do

943
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,200
that, right?
Yeah, but the problem is

944
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:06,400
different only on myself.
It's relaxing you sometimes.

945
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,320
Yeah, yeah, it's.
So.

946
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,120
It's that way our mind programs,
right?

947
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:15,680
And that's why it's so hard for
us.

948
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:17,680
It's not designed for the world
we've built.

949
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:21,160
It's really, really interesting.
My, my favorite is, is it used

950
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,560
to be a big deal if you were the
best singer in your family,

951
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:24,840
right?
Like if you were the one who

952
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,200
could like sing a hymn at the
dinner table or on the holiday.

953
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,720
You, you, your voice was the one
that would kind of take the lead

954
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:35,160
in the choir or whatever version
of music was in your world and

955
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,120
that gave you status people
appreciated you for.

956
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,240
That it.
Felt very like accomplished.

957
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:43,120
You had your thing, now you got
to compare yourself to Beyonc��.

958
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,600
You.
Got to compare yourself to world

959
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,880
class, like the best in the
world.

960
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:50,680
If you're not that, you're not a
singer.

961
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,000
That's a whole.
Yeah, yeah, there's only going

962
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,400
to be.
Five of those folks.

963
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,400
That are at that level of
whatever it is.

964
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:00,720
That's another.
Billion of us.

965
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,720
That's another issue with social
media is that we use.

966
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:06,800
We went from being small town to
being global in a minute.

967
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:08,880
You know, when you grow up and
you could be the best soccer

968
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,280
player in your grade, and that
feels amazing.

969
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,480
It gives you the confidence
that, like, you can really

970
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,720
pursue great things.
Nowadays, if you're the best

971
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:18,320
soccer player of 20 kids, yeah,
who cares?

972
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:19,720
You know?
And like, look online.

973
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:23,640
Look at this kid in, in, you
know, in Saudi Arabia that's

974
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,240
been playing, you know, soccer
for, you know, his entire life.

975
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:29,360
And, and all of a sudden he's 13
and he makes me look like a

976
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,560
joke, you know, and you're like,
well, how am I supposed to

977
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:32,520
compare with that?
You know?

978
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,480
And that's why I think comparing
is, is, is, you know, I mean,

979
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,280
it's so interesting because we
really obviously need it.

980
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,920
We've obviously developed
evolutionarily to require

981
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,520
compare, you know, comparing
ourselves.

982
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:47,560
But it's also, I think, I mean,
it's all, it's all a pendulum,

983
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,320
you know, and I guess, and it's
that way, I think with

984
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:50,960
masculinity too.
I think everything is just a

985
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,360
pendulum that it just keeps on
swinging back and forth.

986
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:58,680
And hopefully we try to get
where it's not swinging as far

987
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,040
as it could one way or the
other.

988
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,960
And it just, it's a little bit
more gentle as opposed, you

989
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,520
know, a little bit more nuanced.
But you know, I think it's a

990
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:06,920
little more romantic hoping for
me.

991
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,440
Well, I think it's more a matter
of accepting.

992
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,000
Yeah, I think it's like that
comparison game, right?

993
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:17,480
So we need men in particular,
right?

994
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,040
We don't, if you look.
Culturally around the world,

995
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:22,840
right?
When does a woman become a woman

996
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:26,280
it's.
Usually around her menstruation

997
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,360
cycle, like the first time,
there's traditions around it,

998
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:33,440
like 1314 when a gal has her
first period, there are

999
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,880
welcoming from other women,
there's a change in status and

1000
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,160
there's a mentorship that
happens between women for that

1001
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,160
men.
We don't have a hard line like

1002
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:48,400
that shared across cultures.
And so the the tendency and the

1003
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,200
traditions are it's harder, like
men have to overcome some kind

1004
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:53,800
of challenge to be considered a
man.

1005
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,280
Right.
And different cultures have

1006
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:57,760
different ways to facilitate
that.

1007
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,840
We don't have that in America.
There's nothing that everybody

1008
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,760
in America agrees on makes a man
short of military service,

1009
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,120
right?
And most of us can't serve,

1010
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,960
right?
Fully half of men in America

1011
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:16,440
right now that are 18 to 23 are
not eligible to serve.

1012
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,040
It's crazy.
It's crazy.

1013
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:20,480
Is that physical?
Which?

1014
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,120
Is a whole different problem to
get into both.

1015
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,840
Yeah, both and not in the
military.

1016
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:33,480
Yeah, I agree.
I should probably look up the

1017
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,160
numbers.
It was 50.

1018
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,520
I think it's worse now, but it
it's in the last 10 to 15 years,

1019
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,520
it's become an issue for
national security in that we

1020
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,400
don't have enough eligible men
and they've had to change some

1021
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,520
things.
I think some of it was that for

1022
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,240
a little while, if you had an
ADD diagnosis that was

1023
00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:53,920
disqualifying, which means they
disqualified one in three guys.

1024
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:56,720
But also, wouldn't you want
someone with?

1025
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,880
The guys that are AED.
Are the ones that want a little

1026
00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:01,040
bit, right?
Yeah.

1027
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:02,480
Somebody with like a physicality
to them.

1028
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,480
Yeah.
So some of that's being

1029
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,080
modified, but it's also just the
National Obesity epidemic.

1030
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,440
It's that most children are
playing in front of a screen

1031
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,000
instead of outside and being
physical.

1032
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,840
It's that we've undervalued
physical aggression, right?

1033
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:21,160
Like, guys, aggression is part
of our a lot of our masculinity.

1034
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,760
And when we're told like
roughhousing is bad,

1035
00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:26,760
roughhousing isn't bad for a 5
year old boy.

1036
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,160
That's him learning how to be in
his body and how to integrate

1037
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,160
his body into a social world.
It's important.

1038
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,240
And for some girls, right, there
are plenty of girls that are

1039
00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:35,960
super kinetic and super
athletic.

1040
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:40,240
I think that's been the beauty
of the push around how to

1041
00:51:40,240 --> 00:51:43,160
rebalance out our discussions
around gender is when you think

1042
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,000
of masculine and feminine, think
of them as traits, right?

1043
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:52,440
So men tend to be more sexual,
more physically aggressive, less

1044
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,640
reactive to physical threat.
Like we're more physically brave

1045
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,280
than women.
Women tend to be more morally

1046
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,600
brave than men, and men are more
status driven.

1047
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,800
Right now I'm saying those
things like I'm saying men tend

1048
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,600
to be taller than women, right?
Yeah.

1049
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,760
If I, I'm a six foot one guy, if
I walked into the WNBA, I'd feel

1050
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:13,720
very small, right?
Right.

1051
00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:16,080
There's a lot of tall ladies in
that place, right?

1052
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,680
And if you look at them as
traits and you accept that it's

1053
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:21,920
a bell curve, right?
Most guys I talk to, when I,

1054
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:26,000
when I name those 4 trades, most
guys really identify with two of

1055
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:27,200
them.
They're like, yeah, yeah, that's

1056
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,120
part of my masculinity.
Like that's, yeah, I'm status

1057
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,080
driven and I, I do, I'm not
really physically afraid.

1058
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,480
I like doing active things.
I like jumping off bridges or

1059
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:36,120
whatever.
I like going fast in my car.

1060
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,560
It's fun.
And then the third one, they'll

1061
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,040
be like, yeah, I could take or
leave, you know, yeah, I could

1062
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:44,800
take your leave.
I'm not super physically

1063
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,840
aggressive at people.
That's not really part of my

1064
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,120
thing.
And then the last one is like,

1065
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:50,800
yeah, you know, I guess I'm not
the most sexual guy.

1066
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,480
Like, yeah, I like, I like sex.
I like being with my partner,

1067
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:55,840
but it's not on my mind all day.
Right.

1068
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,240
Most of us have that.
And if we start thinking of as

1069
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:02,160
traits, then what?
A woman has one of those traits

1070
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:03,800
instead of going, oh, that's
she's not a woman.

1071
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:05,000
I'm like, no, she's she's a
woman.

1072
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,560
She just also is very sexual or
she's very status driven to war.

1073
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,920
She's not physically, she's not
physically afraid or she's more

1074
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,120
morally, she's she's less
morally brave than she is

1075
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,560
physically brave.
As opposed to putting a value on

1076
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,320
it that you're not a man unless
you have all four all the time.

1077
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:23,800
That's where we need to move
away from.

1078
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,200
And by having this broader
acceptance of like these are

1079
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:31,160
masculine traits and this is how
I live in them, our masculinity

1080
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,920
becomes more secure.
I don't have to be all of these

1081
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,000
all the time.
This is the part of my

1082
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:38,400
masculinity.
This is where my masculinity

1083
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:39,480
roars.
And that's how I'm going to go

1084
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:41,560
be a man in the world, but then
I'm going to go do something

1085
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,760
else.
So for me, right, I'm a Air

1086
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,920
Force veteran, Yeah.
I used to do a lot of MASH

1087
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,120
pitting, played a lot of
physical sports.

1088
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:51,480
I talked to guys about their
feelings all day.

1089
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,600
Yeah.
I like musicals with pretty

1090
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,200
women singing funny things,
Right?

1091
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:59,280
Yeah.
I am not a monolith of

1092
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,680
masculinity or femininity.
I've got both in me.

1093
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,160
Sure.
And by accepting that all of a

1094
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,280
sudden it's a lot more fun to
lean into my masculine and it's

1095
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,560
a lot more fun to lean into the
feminine parts of me where I

1096
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,320
like, I know man, I'm nurturing
guys.

1097
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,000
Like that's my job is I nurture
guys.

1098
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,080
That's a very feminine quality.
Right.

1099
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:18,320
But I'm good at it.
Yeah.

1100
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:19,880
I'm sure you find meaning out of
it.

1101
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:20,920
I'm sure it gives you a sense
of.

1102
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:21,680
Fulfillment.
Yeah.

1103
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,760
Yeah, I wouldn't.
It took me till I was 35 to find

1104
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:25,960
out what I wanted to do when I
grew up.

1105
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,240
And now I I really don't want to
do anything else.

1106
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:31,240
I I love educating.
I love being there with guys in

1107
00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:33,800
the hard moments of their life
and watching them get better.

1108
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:36,000
All right.
And we're back.

1109
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:37,320
Sorry about that.
So I'm sorry.

1110
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,880
So we left off with the question
where we're talking about

1111
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,920
whether when you found what you
were looking to do at 35, you

1112
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,440
know, and you're, and I feel
like a lot of people, it takes

1113
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:53,320
them a long time to figure out,
you know, where what they want

1114
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,000
to do and who they want to be.
And you know, we have almost

1115
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,240
like what we have like our
childhood passions are we try to

1116
00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:02,000
find an adult way of fulfilling
that childhood passion.

1117
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,280
Did you always like to help
people and always want to?

1118
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,040
You know, is that something that
was a passion or is that

1119
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:08,320
something you discovered over
time?

1120
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:10,440
I was always people focused,
right?

1121
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,080
So I I'd been in student
government since I was in first

1122
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,680
grade or no, it was second
grade.

1123
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:16,840
Sorry, I'm exaggerating.
What does that mean?

1124
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,440
What does what mean?
Being in student government in

1125
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,840
second grade?
Yeah, not much, man.

1126
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:24,960
It's second graders, right?
So they bring they're like every

1127
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,320
class has a representative and
you go and a teacher guides you

1128
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,560
through Robert Rules of Order,
but you're not really, you're a

1129
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:31,680
second grader, you're not making
any.

1130
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,640
Calls.
But that builds up, right?

1131
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,400
So by middle school, you're
helping make sure there's dances

1132
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,760
you're going to administration
to talk about concerns for the

1133
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:42,200
students.
And then in high school, right,

1134
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,160
even more, they're giving you
more and more efficacy.

1135
00:55:44,720 --> 00:55:46,800
And then by the time you're in
college student government, I

1136
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,360
was sitting on boards, right?
I would I would be there with a

1137
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,400
chancellor talking about issues
impacting the campus and what to

1138
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:54,600
do about that.
Where'd you go to college?

1139
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:59,440
A few places.
So I grew up outside of DC in

1140
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,720
College Park, and my school was
really, really unsafe and not

1141
00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:04,680
good.
And so I didn't read a book.

1142
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:09,480
And by the time I got done with
high school, I had connected

1143
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,120
with a family who was willing to
put me up out in Denver.

1144
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:13,680
They were both PhDs from
Cornell.

1145
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,640
And they're really like adopted
parents now.

1146
00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:21,760
And they're, they're who kind of
really changed the trajectory of

1147
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:23,880
my life.
And so I went, I had to go to

1148
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,080
Community College though,
because I didn't know how to do

1149
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,040
anything academically.
So I had to take a semester,

1150
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,360
semester and a half of non
credit classes, right?

1151
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,040
Like how to do English, how to
do basic math.

1152
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,080
Finished up at the Community
College.

1153
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,120
And then I went down to Salt
Lake to go to the University of

1154
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:41,960
Utah for a bachelor's in
sociology.

1155
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,640
Terrible life decision.
Why?

1156
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:47,720
Because sociology is not a
degree to get a job with.

1157
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,320
Yeah, well, you're talking to
someone with the creative

1158
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,520
writing literature degrees.
So you get it, right?

1159
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,480
Like, hey, at least you know how
to do something right.

1160
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,040
A bachelor's in sociology says,
I understand that groups of

1161
00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:59,040
people are things.
It's not.

1162
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,960
It's not as not entirely useful.
And so I was supposed to do

1163
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:05,840
government.
That was my goal, as I wanted

1164
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:07,960
when I was in my 20s.
I wanted to be a senator one

1165
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:09,040
day.
Wow.

1166
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:10,680
And you?
Always had an.

1167
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,080
Interest in politics.
I always had an interest in

1168
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,600
helping people, and I thought
politics was going to be my way

1169
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,320
to do that because I like
talking to people.

1170
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:23,560
Politics is a lot more about
systems and navigating them than

1171
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,360
they are about people.
And once I figured that out and

1172
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,280
I figured out I wasn't as good
at systems and that there were

1173
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,920
people that were better at it
than me and that there were

1174
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,400
people that were more socially
flexible than I was, I realized

1175
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,160
that if I had gone into
politics, I wouldn't like who I

1176
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,960
became.
And so I punted.

1177
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,720
I came back to Colorado and it
was 2005.

1178
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,600
So I showed back up in Denver at
a time when there were more

1179
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:48,840
college degrees per capita than
any other city in the country

1180
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:51,680
with a mediocre degree with a
mediocre GPA and no work

1181
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:55,560
experience.
And so I did property management

1182
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:58,200
for a year, and then I did temp
jobs after that because I

1183
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,920
couldn't find anything.
And I found myself renting a

1184
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,000
room out in a friend's house,
not being able to afford clothes

1185
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:05,720
right.
There were holes in my shoes and

1186
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:06,960
I couldn't.
I couldn't afford anything

1187
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:07,640
better.
How?

1188
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,120
At this point you're in your
early 20s I imagine.

1189
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:12,760
Mid 20s.
It was 25 when I graduated

1190
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:19,440
college.
And what did you I, I like that.

1191
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:24,080
I like, I like to think back
where everything kind of felt

1192
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:25,440
like it was the biggest deal in
the world.

1193
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:28,040
And looking back, you're like,
that wasn't, did you feel like

1194
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,520
everything like like you had no
idea what was going on with your

1195
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:32,720
life or you felt like, I'm fine,
I'm just going to figure out my

1196
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:34,280
life?
It was miserable.

1197
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,800
It was miserable.
Yeah, I so because I was in

1198
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,960
student government, I was around
a bunch of doers.

1199
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,240
A lot of my friends from college
went on to do their career right

1200
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:44,840
afterwards.
They went to law school, they

1201
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:46,880
went to medical school, they
jumped into careers and we're

1202
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:51,560
doing very well.
And I landed flat on my face and

1203
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:55,880
it was horribly depressing and
there just wasn't a way forward.

1204
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:59,200
I actually feel really hard for
the guys right now because more

1205
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:02,800
of them than ever are in that
position where they get to their

1206
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,000
mid 20s, they've done whatever
schooling they're going to do.

1207
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,600
Maybe they've failed out, maybe
they've finished, but there's no

1208
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:12,320
work for them, there's no job
for them, and no one's guiding

1209
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,320
them to any kind of productive
labor or a way to contribute to

1210
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,200
their community because they're
supposed to be a provider,

1211
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:18,080
right?
The only way forward?

1212
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,600
Is and traits that we've been
told that that are important,

1213
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:22,160
we're getting told they're no
good anymore.

1214
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:24,520
And now we don't even know what
traits to try to embody.

1215
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,680
Yeah, the unemployment rate for
people with degrees and without

1216
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:29,680
degrees is the same for the
first time in our country's

1217
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:32,760
history.
And electricians and plumbers

1218
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,280
are making more reliable money
faster than people with academic

1219
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,200
degrees.
But we've spent our entire last

1220
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:41,360
20 years convincing everybody
they need to go to college,

1221
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:45,600
which is crap.
So I, I really do feel for young

1222
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,040
men right now and how hard that
is.

1223
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,240
And in part it was because that
was my experience.

1224
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,960
Everybody told me that if I went
to college, that I would make

1225
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,640
something of myself.
And I think the adults around

1226
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,000
me, when they told me that,
honestly believed it.

1227
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,840
And because when they were
young, that was the way forward.

1228
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,920
But a sociology degree doesn't
prepare you for a job market.

1229
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:08,840
It doesn't give you a skill
that's going to be useful as far

1230
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:11,680
as providing.
The only way that that goes is

1231
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,160
if you want to do sociology,
you've got to go up to a PhD

1232
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:16,800
level and be willing to work in
education because that's the

1233
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:18,320
only thing that's going to
happen with that degree for the

1234
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:21,480
most part, unless you're doing
like organizational psychology.

1235
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,200
But then there's degrees
specifically for the ways that

1236
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:29,000
sociology is used, right?
So I think we really need to

1237
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,520
move away from this idea that I
hate how colleges do this.

1238
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,440
Colleges advertise to kids, hey,
you're going to give us $50,000

1239
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,640
of your future and you're going
to be so much better off

1240
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:41,040
professionally for having done
this.

1241
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:43,800
And then when the kids graduate,
they're like, well, we promised

1242
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:46,240
you an education, not a job.
Yeah.

1243
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,680
We we really set people up for
failure and I certainly felt set

1244
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:54,120
up for failure that way.
Luckily I was able to join the

1245
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:55,640
Air Force.
I went into the Air Force very

1246
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,840
late.
I was 27 when I joined, almost

1247
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,240
28, and the Air Force has a cut
off of 28 before you need a

1248
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,720
waiver, so I got in just by the
skin of my teeth.

1249
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,920
Why did you have to do Air Force
or why did you have to enlist?

1250
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:11,000
Because I didn't have anything
else to do.

1251
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,000
I didn't know what else to do
with my life.

1252
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,280
I was lost.
I was depressed.

1253
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,000
Do you do?
You recommend that, Do you think

1254
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:20,040
that was a good, do you think
it's a good choice for people

1255
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,280
that or for?
I think it was a good choice for

1256
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:27,280
me, yeah.
So the military is a viable

1257
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,600
choice for a lot of people.
It is not a viable choice for

1258
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:33,840
everybody, and I think public
service can be.

1259
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:37,120
I wish we had more ways for men
and boys to be of public service

1260
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:39,400
outside of the military, but we
don't.

1261
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:43,240
For me, the Air Force saved my
life.

1262
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:45,720
And I know for a lot of people
it does.

1263
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:48,840
And there's a lot of people it
really hurts.

1264
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:52,880
I was very lucky in my service.
And so service is complicated.

1265
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,160
There are literally millions of
people who have served, all with

1266
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:56,760
drastically different
experiences.

1267
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,520
Every branch is different.
Every job within every branch is

1268
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:01,960
different.
And you don't know what that's

1269
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:03,600
going to look like for you until
you're in.

1270
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:07,240
I was lucky in that I had
friends since I was since I was

1271
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:08,480
28.
I had friends that joined out of

1272
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,200
high school that were getting
out of the military and talked

1273
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:13,960
me through the process and were
able to kind of give me some

1274
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,680
guidance on how to aim my career
in the military to make sure I

1275
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:20,200
had the best chance possible for
good outcomes.

1276
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,400
And it worked.
I was really lucky.

1277
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,560
I did intelligence work.
I got to live in Korea for a

1278
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:26,840
year.
I got to live in England for two

1279
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:29,640
years.
I got to learn a very marketable

1280
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:36,360
skill that I don't like doing.
And the military offers a broad

1281
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:39,400
range of impact.
You know, the, you're more than

1282
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,120
your job in the military.
You are an airman, you are a

1283
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:44,360
soldier, you are a Marine.
And so even if you don't like

1284
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:48,360
your job, but you like being a
service member and things that

1285
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:49,720
you can do to lean into that
role.

1286
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:53,240
And the military is also very
good at every and making

1287
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:56,760
everyone who's touching
something feel like they're part

1288
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:58,520
of a greater mission.
Yeah.

1289
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:02,960
So the the kind of anecdote for
it that I think best sums it up

1290
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:06,120
is there was a president touring
an air Air Force or, sorry,

1291
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,080
there was a president touring an
aircraft carrier, and he comes

1292
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:13,120
across the mail boy.
And the mail boy is the lowest

1293
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:15,160
ranking person on the ship who's
pushing a cart of mail.

1294
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,120
And so of course, the president
stops and says, oh, young man,

1295
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:19,840
what do you do on the ship?
He's like, my job is the most

1296
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,920
important job on the ship, Sir.
OK, tell me about that.

1297
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,480
If I don't deliver this, we
don't get potatoes for dinner.

1298
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:27,160
If I don't deliver this, the
ship doesn't turn left.

1299
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:29,440
If I don't deliver this, we
don't get munitions to do the

1300
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:30,920
mission.
My job is the most important job

1301
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:35,000
on the ship, Sir.
The military is very good at

1302
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:37,960
reminding people that the thing
you're doing is contributing to

1303
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,280
an overall mission that's
impacting big things.

1304
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:42,920
And we don't have that in a lot
of other places.

1305
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:46,840
People working in a call center
getting people's Internet hooked

1306
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,240
up have a hard time remembering
that that Internet is making

1307
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:51,280
that person able to do
telehealth appointments.

1308
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,480
It's making their life better.
Instead, they're just answering

1309
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:56,480
calls and with people
complaining about their bills,

1310
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:01,560
right?
What I did find is that I wasn't

1311
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,360
going to do technical work.
I was smart enough to do

1312
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:08,360
intelligence work.
I was not smart enough to excel

1313
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:11,720
at intelligence work.
What made me interesting with it

1314
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:13,480
is that I was very good at
teaching it because I had a hard

1315
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:15,120
time learning it.
And that's when I got into

1316
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:16,280
teaching.
That's when I started learning

1317
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:22,120
my passion for teaching.
And I also started doing work in

1318
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,680
advocacy and prevention for
sexual assault and violence.

1319
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:28,400
And that's when I started to
touch on the other person.

1320
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:33,000
So there was a, there was a
training.

1321
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:37,400
So when I joined up, it was O 7.
I got to Korea in O 8 and the

1322
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,920
Air Force was really the first
branch that was really taken to

1323
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,400
task for sexual assault.
And it goes.

1324
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,000
The same way with every
organization, right?

1325
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:47,240
America has a problem with
sexual assault.

1326
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:50,600
And so when an organization
starts to recognize that this is

1327
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:52,600
a problem, training start to
happen, Awareness starts to

1328
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:54,200
being built.
There's usually a flood of

1329
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:57,640
reporting that once there is
capacity for people to recognize

1330
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:01,000
a problem and there's a pathway
to report a problem, there's

1331
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,880
this huge spike in reports and
it scares everybody.

1332
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:05,440
And the Air Force wasn't any
different.

1333
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:12,280
We had a huge scandal out of the
Air Force Academy with assaults.

1334
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:16,040
We had a very public thing where
2 drill sergeants have been

1335
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:19,880
assaulting junior airmen as they
came into the military and it

1336
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,880
made national news.
And so the Air Force decided to

1337
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:25,520
do something about that, which
was really good.

1338
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:30,080
But before all that happened, I
was in a training, and a woman

1339
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:33,640
shows up and her job is to do
sexual assault prevention.

1340
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:36,080
At the time, the training was
really bad.

1341
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:38,360
It was basically someone
standing in front of a

1342
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:42,320
PowerPoint going, hey, did you
know that rape is bad, that you

1343
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:44,280
shouldn't do it, And if you do
do it, you're going to get

1344
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:46,520
really punished.
So don't be a rapist.

1345
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:49,400
That's a terrible way to talk
about it.

1346
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:53,040
Who?
Who thinks that's a good?

1347
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:54,600
Who thinks that's a good
curriculum?

1348
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,120
People who are trying to do a
curriculum for a million people.

1349
01:05:59,960 --> 01:06:02,440
Right, I guess the.
Military is very about

1350
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:04,920
consequence, right?
Like the one of the things

1351
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,480
that's very nice about the
military is hierarchical and

1352
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:11,200
authoritative.
So punishments are clear, routes

1353
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:14,440
for reporting are clear.
But what that ends up doing in

1354
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,120
most cases is convincing a room
full of men that either

1355
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:20,360
everybody thinks every man is a
rapist, or that this is so

1356
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:22,160
stupid it couldn't possibly be a
problem.

1357
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:26,120
Right.
And so I'm in the room and I'm a

1358
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:28,640
junior enlisted guy and it's my
first duty station.

1359
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:31,080
And the way that works for the
for the Air Force at least, is

1360
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:33,800
that you show up and you get a
two week training on what it

1361
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:34,920
means now that you're out of
training.

1362
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:37,120
Like here's the base, here's all
the resources for you, Here's

1363
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:39,200
the different things that are
going to be available to you.

1364
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,200
Here's how to be welcome to the
Air Force.

1365
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:43,680
Now that you're able to do your
job, welcome to being a real

1366
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:46,080
airman.
And so we get this 20 minute

1367
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:48,160
briefing from this woman about
how rape is bad.

1368
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:51,840
And one of the guys in the room
is a police officer.

1369
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:56,760
And he puts his hand up and very
flippantly said, ma'am, I get

1370
01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:58,480
this briefing once a week.
I'm a police officer.

1371
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:00,240
Is there any way we can have a
different conversation about

1372
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:02,640
this?
It's really rude.

1373
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:04,880
As a junior enlisted guy, you
don't talk to a Sergeant that

1374
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:07,240
way.
But the sentiment was very real,

1375
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:08,840
right?
Like, hey, we, we've had this

1376
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:09,920
briefing a lot.
Is there a different

1377
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,000
conversation we can have?
And the woman lost her temper

1378
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,360
and she yelled at him and said
sit down and shut up.

1379
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:21,200
If you'd stop effing raping
people, I could stop giving this

1380
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:26,680
gosh darn.
And that locked up the room.

1381
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:29,480
It was mostly men in the room.
And she essentially just called

1382
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:33,640
every man in the room a rapist.
And there was a palpable anger

1383
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:38,000
about how she talked about it.
But we were all junior.

1384
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:40,280
And so we all had to sit there
and shut up because that's how

1385
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,840
that works.
And I was older, right?

1386
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:48,120
I was 29 by then, 28.
And I got I was just as angry as

1387
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:50,040
every other guy in the room, I
imagined in that moment.

1388
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:53,760
But then as like, she finished
her slides, I started noticing

1389
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:55,240
things.
I noticed how kind of haggard

1390
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:59,360
she looked.
Her hair wasn't done well, which

1391
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:01,440
in the military is a big deal.
Like not having a crisp

1392
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:02,880
appearance in the military is a
big deal.

1393
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:05,680
I noticed the rings under her
eyes.

1394
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:09,480
I noticed how tired she looked
and how frustrated she was.

1395
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:11,720
And it got me curious as to what
was happening with this woman

1396
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:14,680
that she just did that.
And that's when I found out the

1397
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,000
base I was at at the time had
the highest occurrence of sexual

1398
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:20,840
assault in the Air Force, and
that the resources for it

1399
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:23,560
weren't weren't any different
than any other base in the Air

1400
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,160
Force.
It was one officer, one

1401
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:30,560
Sergeant, and as many volunteers
as they could get to help to try

1402
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:35,680
to take on this problem.
Yeah, she was absolutely

1403
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:39,720
inundated with horror.
That was her whole job was to

1404
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:43,760
sit there and listen to people
as they tell stories and see

1405
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:47,279
justice not generally get done.
And so that's when I started

1406
01:08:47,279 --> 01:08:48,800
volunteering.
That's when I got involved.

1407
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:50,040
That's when I wanted to be of
help.

1408
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,120
And that was great.
I learned a lot.

1409
01:08:53,319 --> 01:08:55,359
I got to learn how to sit with
people in pain.

1410
01:08:55,359 --> 01:08:58,760
I got to learn what resources
there are and aren't for these

1411
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:02,120
things.
And then when I got to England,

1412
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:05,240
the Air Force started up a new
way to talk about these things.

1413
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,040
It's called like the bystander
approach, right?

1414
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:09,960
60% of all crime is committed in
front of people.

1415
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:13,279
So 60% of the time it's going to
be somebody else stepping in

1416
01:09:13,279 --> 01:09:16,040
that stops a crime.
And sexual assault is one of

1417
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:19,080
them.
And so I got trained on how to

1418
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:23,760
the, the joke is for a few years
my job was convincing airman to

1419
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:25,200
punch rapist.
It was a great job.

1420
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:26,359
It's my favorite job I've ever
had.

1421
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:33,319
And so 15 to 20 guys at a time,
I would do 90 minutes with them

1422
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,120
and I would convince them that
sexual assault is a problem,

1423
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:39,000
it's a thing that happens and
that they can step in and do

1424
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,040
something and should, and then
give them the things to do that

1425
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:44,200
besides punching people, right?
That's tends to be a bad way

1426
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:45,760
you're going to get arrested.
Don't always just go punch

1427
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:47,240
people because you think
something bad is happening.

1428
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:51,040
But I really like that work.
And while I was being trained on

1429
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:53,240
how to do it, I was really lucky
in that I was trained by the

1430
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:55,720
PhDs that developed out the
program for the Air Force.

1431
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:57,600
They showed up.
I was in Europe.

1432
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,880
I was one of like 2 trainers for
England.

1433
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:02,920
And so I got to train a lot of
people.

1434
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:06,120
And one of the trainers pulled
me aside for lunch during the

1435
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:07,280
training.
It was like, hey, Tim, let's,

1436
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:09,040
let's go.
At that point, it was hey,

1437
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:11,120
Winicky, let's go get it, let's
go get lunch, right?

1438
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,000
And she looked at me.
She's like, hey, what do you do?

1439
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:15,520
And I'm like, oh, I do
intelligence work, it's OK.

1440
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:17,040
And she's like, yeah, you're
doing the wrong thing.

1441
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:20,160
You should be doing this.
Not really.

1442
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:25,080
Yeah, and she was right.
I think for Human Services work,

1443
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:27,760
most guys are never told that
that's a viable option for them.

1444
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:31,000
I certainly didn't think of
myself as counselor, but looking

1445
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:33,640
back, I've always been the
person people tell things to.

1446
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:36,120
I'm the guy sitting on the plane
that somebody tells about their

1447
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:40,960
affair, like perfect stranger.
I've always been that person.

1448
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:46,560
And so that led me to looking at
different ways to engage in

1449
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:48,720
Human Services.
For a little while, I thought

1450
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:50,760
there would be a job for me
doing the interpersonal violence

1451
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:53,440
training.
But you cannot get a job doing

1452
01:10:53,440 --> 01:10:56,920
that without being willing to
continue to do the advocacy

1453
01:10:56,920 --> 01:10:58,360
work.
And by then, the advocacy work

1454
01:10:58,360 --> 01:10:59,760
is kind of starting to burn me
out.

1455
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:03,000
When you're working a crisis
line or you're working as an

1456
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:05,240
advocate, you're talking to
people on the worst day of their

1457
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:08,720
life, and you generally do not
get to see them heal.

1458
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:11,360
You hear them in the crisis, you
help them through the crisis,

1459
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:15,720
and then you do the next one.
And so because of that, it took

1460
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:17,680
about six months after I got out
of the military to figure out

1461
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:19,480
what I wanted to do next.
And I realized counseling was a

1462
01:11:19,480 --> 01:11:22,280
viable option where, yeah,
you're with people on the bad

1463
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:24,360
day of their life, but you also
get to see them heal.

1464
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:26,360
You get to help them heal.
You get to the end of the story.

1465
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:29,560
And so it's not just pain all
the time.

1466
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:33,160
Right, right.
Can I ask real quickly before I

1467
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:37,960
just have you noticed, did you
kind of anecdotally kind of pick

1468
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:44,160
up any kind of patterns or
common commonality between

1469
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:46,800
people that tend to be
aggressive or people that tend

1470
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:52,120
to be tend to assault or like is
there, is this something you've

1471
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:54,160
noticed over the course of the
year you're doing that?

1472
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:57,400
So let me see if I'm if I'm
getting your question correct.

1473
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:01,160
Are there things that we can
notice and predict whether

1474
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:04,560
somebody will be an abuser?
Or behavior patterns to look

1475
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:06,560
for, yeah.
Of course there are.

1476
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:08,000
OK, of course.
What?

1477
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:13,400
What are some of them?
So, so one, it's not about

1478
01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:18,120
aggression.
Abuse is about control, sexual

1479
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,680
assault is about control.
It's not about whether

1480
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:22,720
somebody's attractive or not.
It's about somebody needing to

1481
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:25,280
feel control over somebody else
to feel whole.

1482
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:29,840
And so there's kind of two tacks
that I see.

1483
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:34,320
You have your habitual abusers
who are the guys that have 10

1484
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:36,440
people that report on them
before they're caught.

1485
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:42,040
Those aren't the norm.
So the best way to I can see to

1486
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:45,360
articulate this and the best way
for guys to hear this, to maybe

1487
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:47,640
recognize what they do might
contribute to a problem,

1488
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:49,960
something called the continuum
of harm.

1489
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,200
So I want you to imagine that
there's a line with an arrow,

1490
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:57,880
and the arrow is pointing to the
right, and on the right side is

1491
01:12:57,880 --> 01:12:59,280
someone who sexually assaults
someone.

1492
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:05,160
OK?
Not everyone who tells a sexist

1493
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:10,520
joke is a rapist.
Not everyone who does an

1494
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:14,240
inappropriate work search and
watches pornography at work is a

1495
01:13:14,240 --> 01:13:17,680
rapist.
Not everyone who inappropriately

1496
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:22,240
touches a stranger is a rapist.
A rapist does all of these

1497
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:26,760
things right.
And So what happens is no one

1498
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:27,960
looks at themselves like the
villain.

1499
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:30,240
No one's like twisting A
mustache going I'm a horrible

1500
01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:31,920
person and I'm going to do
horrible things.

1501
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:33,760
They have a story about why it's
OK.

1502
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:34,760
They're doing what they're doing
right.

1503
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:39,200
And so for guys we like, oh,
it's just a joke, right?

1504
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:41,360
We're in a group of guys.
We tell, we tell a joke, a lewd

1505
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:44,680
joke about a woman walking by
and we don't think anything of

1506
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:45,520
it.
We're like, oh, we're just being

1507
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:46,680
funny.
Of course, no one's going to do

1508
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:49,120
anything like that.
One of the guys in that group is

1509
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:53,920
and when he hears you making
that joke, he thinks you agree

1510
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:58,920
with what he does.
When a guy sends you an off

1511
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:02,280
color video at work, he's not
thinking like I'm encouraging A

1512
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:04,640
rapist.
He's thinking, isn't this funny?

1513
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:11,520
He is encouraging rapist.
And so there's no, you don't

1514
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:13,160
want to get to the point where
you're not a professional

1515
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:15,160
assessing whether somebody's
doing horrible things, right?

1516
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:16,840
That's not your job as an
individual.

1517
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:21,720
But what you can do is you can
stop these behaviors socially

1518
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:25,200
because what slowly starts to
happen is these guys go wait,

1519
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:27,120
that's there's something wrong
with what I'm doing.

1520
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:31,480
The other men in my life are
saying that this isn't OK, This

1521
01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:33,680
is weird.
That's not what's been going on,

1522
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:34,760
Right.
We used to joke like this.

1523
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:36,560
We used to do these things.
They used to laugh when I would

1524
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:40,320
do this thing at the nightclub
instead of, hey, man, like,

1525
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:43,320
don't do that.
Yeah, there's nothing good

1526
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:44,760
happening there.
Yeah.

1527
01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:47,200
Instead, let's, you know, let's
make jokes about baseball or

1528
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:50,040
about how about how you have bed
haircut instead of what her rear

1529
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:54,720
end looks like.
And so it's complicated.

1530
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:56,800
The big thing, though, to
remember is about it's about

1531
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:59,000
control.
People who feel out of control

1532
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:02,560
in their life will try to feel
control in their life by taking

1533
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:06,160
control of somebody else's, and
that's where abuse and sexual

1534
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:10,400
assault comes in as it's a drive
to control because they feel

1535
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:13,600
insecure in the world.
It's fascinating.

1536
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,200
So I guess people and I guess
that's why I don't know whether

1537
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:19,720
it's, I don't know statistically
whether it's more common or not,

1538
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:21,920
but I feel like you hear more
stories of people that are in

1539
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:23,840
power abusing other people
because.

1540
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:26,960
There's something.
About power, that's just so.

1541
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:29,880
Power and control.
It's not something about power,

1542
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:32,960
it's that you cannot be abusive
without some lever of power.

1543
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:36,360
You have to have power to take
control from somebody, whether

1544
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:39,320
that's physically, emotionally,
financially.

1545
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:45,200
Back in 2007 when I got started,
the stat was is 95% of all

1546
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:46,560
violent crime was committed by
men.

1547
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:50,400
Now the stat is 78% of all
violent crime is committed by

1548
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:52,360
men.
I think a major contributing

1549
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:54,880
factor to that change is because
women have more power.

1550
01:15:56,520 --> 01:16:01,000
When you have power, it's easier
to fall into those roles.

1551
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:05,240
And that's a 15 year, it's over
a 15 year span.

1552
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:09,200
It's changed, and some of it's
also just because we've changed

1553
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:11,960
how we do reporting.
People are more willing to see

1554
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:15,960
women be violent.
The range of what is considered

1555
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:19,720
abusive has broadened out.
So now financial abuse is a

1556
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:21,320
thing.
Emotional abuse is a thing.

1557
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:25,640
It used to not be considered
abuse to block somebody's access

1558
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:28,400
from leaving a room.
So let's say, let's say that

1559
01:16:28,400 --> 01:16:29,160
I'm.
I'm a big guy, right?

1560
01:16:29,160 --> 01:16:31,000
Let's say I'm 61.
I'm 200 lbs.

1561
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:33,600
Yeah.
Let's say that I am intimate

1562
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:35,800
with a woman who is 5 foot and
90 lbs.

1563
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:40,800
And she has decided that our
argument is not over until she

1564
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:44,600
says it over and she stands in a
doorway and doesn't let me leave

1565
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:45,880
that room.
Right.

1566
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:49,280
And then she says, if you move
me, I'm calling the cops, you're

1567
01:16:50,480 --> 01:16:52,040
going to stay here and you're
going to listen to what I have

1568
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:54,160
to say and you're going to do
what I want.

1569
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:57,520
And I'm not leaving this doorway
until that happens because she

1570
01:16:57,520 --> 01:16:59,680
wants to control the situation.
She wants to feel like she has

1571
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:02,520
control.
And if I move her to leave the

1572
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,880
room, she'll call the cops and
they'll see a six foot one guy

1573
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:07,080
and.
You'll have to.

1574
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:11,720
Show up and say potentially
that's physical abuse.

1575
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:14,960
I'm working my access from
leaving.

1576
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:20,440
Yes, that wasn't listed as
something that was abusive until

1577
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:23,920
5 or 10 years ago.
What would you say we we'd call

1578
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:27,960
that manipulation blackmail.
I mean, there's, there's,

1579
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:29,720
there's a million different
things that I guess you could

1580
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:31,920
call it, no.
She's controlling my physical

1581
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:33,200
space.
That's physical abuse.

1582
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:35,920
Fascinating.
So that's what physical abuse

1583
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:39,600
would fall under your it would
limit your physical autonomy and

1584
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:41,560
your ability to do what you want
to do.

1585
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:42,920
Yes.
Wow.

1586
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:48,320
Yeah, I guess that is a broad, a
much broader definition.

1587
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:50,880
You know, I think that people
are just used to hearing, well,

1588
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:52,200
did he, did he lay a hand on
you?

1589
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:54,360
Did you know, did she, did she,
did she do anything to you?

1590
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:55,760
Did like, wait, what?
What happened?

1591
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:56,920
There and that's the problem,
right?

1592
01:17:56,920 --> 01:17:59,600
It's it's the we we think of it
as like the perfect victim,

1593
01:17:59,920 --> 01:18:02,440
right So if we look at sexual
assault, why people don't

1594
01:18:02,440 --> 01:18:04,400
believe women have been
assaulted as they always start

1595
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:06,640
asking questions about what she
was doing instead of what

1596
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:09,560
happened, right?
Oh, did you fight back?

1597
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:11,800
What were you wearing?
Where were you at?

1598
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:14,360
Why were you there?
None of that matters.

1599
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:17,080
What matters is somebody raped
her, right?

1600
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:20,000
What was he doing?
Why was he there?

1601
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:22,360
Why was this happening?
Why did he thought he, why did

1602
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:24,880
he think he could do that?
What was going on for him that

1603
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:28,160
that occurred, Right.
And so when we change the frame

1604
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:32,560
to what the perpetrator is
doing, we get a much clearer

1605
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:34,480
picture of whether something
happens or not.

1606
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:40,560
Right, right.
And so abuse is about control

1607
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:43,800
and control only comes through
power.

1608
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:47,160
And there's different leverage
points for power.

1609
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:50,440
Financial abuse, right?
If you're an adult on an

1610
01:18:50,440 --> 01:18:52,760
allowance, that's a dangerous
place to be.

1611
01:18:55,640 --> 01:18:59,840
If one partner has complete and
utter control of the financial

1612
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:03,280
decisions and you're not allowed
to contribute to those

1613
01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:04,680
decisions, that's financial
abuse.

1614
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:05,560
That's scary.
That's a.

1615
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:07,560
That's a power dynamic that is
unhealthy.

1616
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:15,240
Yeah, I'm, I'm so, so, so
skeptical of power and control

1617
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:17,720
in that kind of way.
And, and I know it's, and one of

1618
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:19,480
the reasons why is because I
know I'm not above it.

1619
01:19:19,480 --> 01:19:21,960
That's part of why, you know,
it's a human thing, you know?

1620
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:25,480
Yeah.
And you know, whether it's ways

1621
01:19:25,480 --> 01:19:28,440
that I've behaved that I'm not
proud of, you know, as a kid or

1622
01:19:28,440 --> 01:19:31,120
whether it's even like now I
teach high school part time and

1623
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:33,720
I've talked about this before,
but like a student will ask me

1624
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:35,160
can I do an assignment a certain
way?

1625
01:19:35,480 --> 01:19:38,800
And I'll immediately respond no.
And I'm like, wait, why am I

1626
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:40,520
saying no?
I'm saying no because he didn't

1627
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:43,040
think that he wants to do it the
way that I asked him to.

1628
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:46,480
Or is he, am I saying no, you
know, because he's not really

1629
01:19:46,480 --> 01:19:48,440
doesn't want to do the work and
like he just being an immature

1630
01:19:48,440 --> 01:19:51,040
kid.
And a lot more often, it's more

1631
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:53,480
the first than the second case
and a lot more, it's more about

1632
01:19:53,480 --> 01:19:57,120
just me wanting him to do what I
want him to do as opposed to him

1633
01:19:57,120 --> 01:20:00,240
learning something, you know,
And that's that scares me, you

1634
01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:02,920
know, and it scares me about
myself and it scares me that I

1635
01:20:02,920 --> 01:20:04,720
could potentially, you know, be
like that.

1636
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:06,320
So I'm very, very sensitive
about it.

1637
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:08,920
I, I, I really, it's something
that really weighs on.

1638
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:13,120
Me so well, and this is the hard
part about these conversations.

1639
01:20:13,120 --> 01:20:16,440
Everyone.
Everyone has capacity to reach

1640
01:20:16,440 --> 01:20:17,760
for control.
Sure.

1641
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:19,920
When we're scared, we reach for
control.

1642
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:21,560
When we're nervous, we reach for
control.

1643
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:24,160
When we feel overwhelmed, we
reach for control.

1644
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:26,520
So as a teacher, right?
This kid comes and he says I'd

1645
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:28,000
like to do this assignment
differently.

1646
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:31,240
The reality is that means you're
going to have to grade it

1647
01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:34,240
differently, and that means that
you're going to have to think

1648
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:35,240
harder.
You're going to have to come up

1649
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:37,360
with a special set of
circumstances for this person.

1650
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:42,200
And as a professor, I very much
relate to the entire weekend

1651
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:44,760
grading the big assignment and
how annoying and awful that is,

1652
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:46,760
reading the same damn thing over
and over and over.

1653
01:20:48,480 --> 01:20:52,920
But by having it be the same
damn thing, I can get through

1654
01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:55,280
that in six hours for my class
of 30.

1655
01:20:55,280 --> 01:20:57,360
I can get, I can go through and
I can grade all of those.

1656
01:20:57,600 --> 01:20:59,560
But if all the sudden somebody
has a specialty assignment, I

1657
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:01,800
got to think really hard and
make it fit into the paradigm.

1658
01:21:02,120 --> 01:21:04,240
And all of a sudden now I'm
doing 7 hours and 1 of the

1659
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:09,360
entire hours is for this person.
So regardless of whether it's a

1660
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:13,720
good idea for them, depending on
my overwhelm, I can say no,

1661
01:21:15,080 --> 01:21:16,760
right?
It's how you say no.

1662
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:20,320
It's a do you explain why?
Right, right.

1663
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:23,560
Sometimes it's OK to protect you
as the educator's ability to

1664
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:28,040
educate.
Sometimes it's about you getting

1665
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:31,360
frustrated and needing to
control the people instead of

1666
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:32,920
having authority over the
people.

1667
01:21:33,480 --> 01:21:36,560
Authority is providing a box for
people to play in and let them

1668
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:39,160
go nuts in.
Control is dictating step by

1669
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:40,840
step in what the process is
going to look like.

1670
01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:47,760
Right, I don't like control.
I don't really like authority

1671
01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:52,200
either, but I I understand that
a lot of people need it to

1672
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:54,920
function.
That's in the framework people

1673
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:57,440
don't like.
It's funny when you look at

1674
01:21:57,440 --> 01:21:59,880
managerial leadership and what
the complaints about the

1675
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:03,600
different generations are.
The boomers are very rigid and

1676
01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:05,720
people are very don't like how
rigid they are.

1677
01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:10,640
Xers are aloof and tend to be a
little unengaged.

1678
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:15,040
Millennials have soft, mushy
boundaries because they're

1679
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:19,120
uncomfortable with authority.
But when you're talking about

1680
01:22:19,120 --> 01:22:21,520
teaching, you have authority
over those students.

1681
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:23,960
You are a gatekeeper to them
finishing the course.

1682
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:26,720
You are the one that gets to
assess and say whether they

1683
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:29,440
learned what they learned.
You have authority.

1684
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:32,520
And if you don't accept that
authority, you give mushy

1685
01:22:32,520 --> 01:22:34,680
boundaries.
You don't provide the structure

1686
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:38,280
they need to learn.
And then occasionally you hit

1687
01:22:38,280 --> 01:22:39,720
these points where you're like,
I need control.

1688
01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:42,400
So you rather than having an
acceptance of authority and a

1689
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:45,440
structure around it, you start
grabbing randomly for control

1690
01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:47,000
and it feels very chaotic to
your students.

1691
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:53,880
Right.
I mean, I so I and it's fun.

1692
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:55,240
Yeah.
Go ahead.

1693
01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:57,720
Sorry, please.
Yeah.

1694
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:00,080
Well.
It's because we, we equate

1695
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:03,880
authority with control, right,
Instead of leadership, Yeah.

1696
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:09,400
So the, there's a, there's a,
it's not black or white, there's

1697
01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:11,320
grey.
And paying attention to knowing

1698
01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:14,000
when you're going too far into
control or too away from

1699
01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:16,360
authority, right?
It goes back to that, like being

1700
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:19,680
in the middle of the river, I
need to accept my authority and

1701
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:22,960
I need to enforce my authority
without becoming controlling.

1702
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:25,840
Like how am I just putting
structure around these kids so

1703
01:23:25,840 --> 01:23:28,200
they learn?
Right.

1704
01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:31,560
Right, that's what I kind of,
that's what I Yeah.

1705
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:35,040
And, and what's cool to see is
that there's different students

1706
01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:38,480
that funk that that actually
perform differently based on,

1707
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:40,840
you know, like some students,
I'll just give them a creative

1708
01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:43,200
prompt and say go write.
You know, it was a dark and

1709
01:23:43,200 --> 01:23:45,040
stormy night, Snoopy, you know,
go write.

1710
01:23:45,360 --> 01:23:48,760
And then on the other hand,
there's students that I need to

1711
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:50,720
tell them exactly what I want
them to write.

1712
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:53,800
And then they'll, and then
they'll apply their own, you

1713
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:56,160
know, their own experience or
their own perception to it.

1714
01:23:56,560 --> 01:24:01,000
But, but they need to be told
they, they need some more rigid

1715
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:03,000
outlines.
And it's cool to see how

1716
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:05,240
different, how different people
require different instructions.

1717
01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:07,160
And it takes me a couple of
months to figure out,

1718
01:24:07,400 --> 01:24:10,760
unfortunately, you know, when I
have a new group of students

1719
01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:13,280
who's who you know, and, and how
do they learn?

1720
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:15,840
And, you know, that's really,
that's really, really important

1721
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:20,280
to consider too.
Yeah, I think it goes into the

1722
01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:25,960
art of instruction.
And so when you're teaching a, a

1723
01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:28,040
bad teacher has one way to
explain things.

1724
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:33,400
A competent teacher has 2A,
great teacher has three.

1725
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:37,080
That's it.
That's the distinction, right?

1726
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:39,280
And so for you paying attention
to your students and like, OK,

1727
01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:40,880
they, the students need to learn
this.

1728
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:45,680
I'm teaching them this.
If I have three ways to teach it

1729
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:49,840
and I can get to the student
with the right way of the three

1730
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:53,600
that they're going to grasp it,
90% of that class is going to

1731
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:55,120
walk away feeling good about
what they learned.

1732
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:59,600
That's a great teacher.
You're always going to lose 1 in

1733
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:01,240
10-1 in 10.
Students are just not going to.

1734
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:05,280
There's always.
I really like the rule of 10 in

1735
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:08,880
social sessions.
I I just like the rule of 10,

1736
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:10,240
right?
Like you walk into a room, one

1737
01:25:10,240 --> 01:25:12,920
in 10 people, you're not going
to like 8 out of the 10 people

1738
01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:15,160
you're not going to remember in
two years and one in one in 10

1739
01:25:15,160 --> 01:25:17,000
people, or it's going to be a
potential connection, right?

1740
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:19,920
And getting rid of the morality
of that and just accepting it

1741
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:23,440
makes teaching so much more fun.
Yeah, I never thought about like

1742
01:25:23,440 --> 01:25:24,560
that.
I have to think about that.

1743
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:26,400
I take it personally with
everyone I feel like.

1744
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:29,760
Oh, well, that's because of
you're anxious, right?

1745
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:33,240
You like your, your identity as
an educator and a person is how

1746
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:36,360
people see you instead of how
you are, and we all fall into

1747
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:37,600
it, right?
If you care about how you're

1748
01:25:37,600 --> 01:25:39,640
perceived, it's because you care
about your status.

1749
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:41,120
You care.
About how they learn.

1750
01:25:41,400 --> 01:25:42,400
They care if they're learning or
not.

1751
01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:45,840
Well.
Right, but if they're judging

1752
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:48,320
you for that, if the kids being
surly like that hurts.

1753
01:25:48,320 --> 01:25:49,960
Right.
Oh, oh, I don't care what they

1754
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:51,760
think of me.
I just care that they learn.

1755
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:54,240
I, I, I think if they, if they
walk away and they hate me, if

1756
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:56,160
they hate me, like Mr. Hersman
was the worst teacher I ever

1757
01:25:56,160 --> 01:25:57,520
had.
But you know, I learned.

1758
01:25:57,560 --> 01:25:59,000
But they learned how to do it
exactly.

1759
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:01,040
Yeah, they're like great, That's
that's my job, you know?

1760
01:26:01,120 --> 01:26:04,400
But yeah, I definitely don't
need to be liked by 15 year

1761
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:05,680
olds.
That's that's totally OK with

1762
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:07,600
me.
Thank God.

1763
01:26:08,120 --> 01:26:09,000
Yeah.
Yeah.

1764
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:10,920
Anybody working with teenagers
who's more concerned about

1765
01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:13,000
whether a teenager likes you
versus what they're learning,

1766
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:17,560
you're probably doing it wrong.
Yeah, almost certainly, Tim, I

1767
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:19,360
feel like we can go on for
another long time.

1768
01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:21,320
Maybe we'll do it.
Maybe we'll do around 2 in the

1769
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:23,880
in the in the in the future
because this was a lot of fun.

1770
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:26,280
I feel like we barely, I feel
like you barely scratch the

1771
01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:29,040
surface over here.
But an hour and a half zip by, I

1772
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:30,640
really, really appreciate your
time.

1773
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:35,360
And this is, this is really just
so much fun and there's so many

1774
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:38,840
different directions we can go.
So I would love to, I'd love to

1775
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:41,080
come back and record another,
another part at some point.

1776
01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:44,400
But until now, you've been so
generous and kind of the time

1777
01:26:44,400 --> 01:26:46,480
and so thoughtful.
Thank you really so much for

1778
01:26:46,480 --> 01:26:49,040
such a great conversation.
Yeah, of course man.

1779
01:26:49,040 --> 01:26:53,240
Thanks for having me.
On of course, and I guess we'll

1780
01:26:53,240 --> 01:26:58,760
leave you with your podcast is
is called American Masculinity.

1781
01:26:58,800 --> 01:27:03,680
We'll put the little post a link
with it and I guess we'll just

1782
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:05,920
keep an eye out on that.
I wish you lots of success.

1783
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:08,040
We didn't talk about it.
He has to talk about it.

1784
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:12,000
We talked about a lot of the
topics related, so the the

1785
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:14,720
podcast is just on what's going
on with guys in America and the

1786
01:27:14,720 --> 01:27:16,400
different facets and ways with
experts.

1787
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:19,480
It's really been lovely to have
more nuanced conversations

1788
01:27:19,480 --> 01:27:22,040
around these topics with people
who are smart enough and

1789
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:25,360
educated enough to have informed
broad opinions and get out of

1790
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:27,600
that, like black and white to
the Gray of these things.

1791
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:29,640
It's been really wonderful to do
and I've had a lot of good

1792
01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:32,080
times.
Yeah, I, I listened to, I

1793
01:27:32,080 --> 01:27:34,040
listened to the recent episode
of Dyslexia.

1794
01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:36,080
I thought it was great.
But I.

1795
01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:38,360
Oh, thank you so much.
Yeah, it was really, really, it

1796
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:40,760
was so it was so.
And I love the introduction.

1797
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:43,000
I thought that was thoughtful
How you how you prepared the

1798
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:45,360
audience for the conversation
that was going to happen.

1799
01:27:45,440 --> 01:27:47,000
I thought it's really, really
great.

1800
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:52,240
And and, you know, keep it up
because I think that it it, it

1801
01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:55,240
looks great.
It's great content and, and it's

1802
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:56,600
really impressive.
It's really wonderful.

1803
01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:01,280
Oh, thank you so much man.
I feel that it feels really good

1804
01:28:01,440 --> 01:28:02,840
to.
Hear, of course, of course.

1805
01:28:03,240 --> 01:28:04,880
Thank you so much for the time
today and we'll be in touch.

1806
01:28:04,880 --> 01:28:06,560
OK, I'll talk to you later.
Have a great day.