Psychology Series 8: Marat Shpolyansky / Generational Trauma / Relationships / Discovering Passion

0:01 Welcome to another episode of Come Together. We're live. How are you, Mara? Thank you so much for making the time to to talk with me today. Thank you for having me join, I appreciate it. Yeah, Yeah, I was, I was really excited to, I was really excited when I came across your profile, a couple of things jumped out to me, but one of the primary ones was the intergenerational trauma that you seem to have emphasized for yourself and then, you know, or that you seem to talk about a little bit yourself and that you practice helping individuals or maybe even is it family units as well with, you know, dealing with generational trauma.

0:58 I mean, I think so, I think that it, it started with family units initially. And in my work, as I've gone, gone on to see clients and seen the effect of that trauma in my, in my work, I've gone back and I think honestly worked with, with my family, but it's played into how I communicate with my family. I think that's the, that's the key. It's, it changes the communication. If you can begin to understand why people communicate the way they do, why they hurt each other and the way that they hurt each other, mostly unconsciously. So I think that that's, that's where it's played back in. And I think that my work with clients has informed how I go back into my family and and and communicate with them. So you do, so you learn from, you learn from the work, and then you take and apply it to your own life. Absolutely.

1:53 I mean, there's there's this idea of heal or heal thyself, right? If you're coming in to work with people you don't, you will only get as far with those people as you have gotten with yourself and your own work. I think that's very, it's very important. What if you haven't worked on yourself and you haven't done your own work? You're not going to be able to reach in with the client and, and help them like be, be a partner with them. And, and I'm getting better. So, you know, they don't really train you about intergenerational trauma in school. It's not something that you, you know, you go through some module about that. It's something that you experience, you know, in, in your work with clientele, you begin to realize, OK, well, what were the conditions that you grew up in? What was the ecology of your family when you were a kid? Right.

2:43 I, I can bring examples from my own family. And I think that that's that's where I think that's it's most pertinent and I think it's most real for me at least. Would you mind sharing something happen? Yeah, of course, of course. So, so, you know, my mother was born in 1946, was right after the Holocaust. My grandmother was evacuated from Ukraine during the, the, the fascist bombings of Ukraine in 1941. She at that time had a nine year old, sorry, 7 year old daughter. They were placed in cattle cars in Odessa, Ukraine. And you know, they were stuffed in. And because the, the, the Nazis had crossed the border and basically during a pact with the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union had no idea there would be a war with, with the Nazi Germany.

3:33 So it was all of a sudden people were at the beach and then there were bombings and airplanes were. Flying. No way. So that there was no, you know, there was no war like a designation of war between the countries. The IT just happened. Yeah, the, the, the Soviets actually had made a pact with the Germans dividing Poland and plant. They basically assume that the Nazis would, you know, conquer part of Europe and they would capture, you know, part of Poland and that would be the end of it. But they reneged on their pact and they attacked so Union and they attacked right into Belarus and Ukraine. And in those very first days of war, people were not prepared. People were at the beach, you know, relaxing with their kids. And so all of a sudden there's a war. So she got packed into a cattle car, you know, no, no possessions, nothing really.

4:23 They were, they were dressed in summer clothing along with her, her mother and her sister. And they get shipped off on cattle cars across Ukraine, through Crimea and then on to Uzbekistan. They were, they were kind of refugees in Uzbekistan throughout the war. But on that cattle car, her daughter got crushed to death. And so she had to be the, you know, where the train would stop somewhere and she was buried in a mass grave along with other people that had died on the train. And that was the end of it. And then just pack up and you, you keep going a few minutes later. So if you imagine the, the emotional damage that's caused by that, having a 7 year old child that you, that dies, you buried on the side of a, of a, of a train track.

5:05 And then you, you continue going. That doesn't just go away. There's no therapist on the train. And so my mother was born right after the, the war. And one has to imagine that when she was born, my grandmother, who was not only still grieving the death of her daughter and also, and my assumption is that she had a very hard time connecting with this new child because she was probably still in grief. And she she was also afraid. What if I lose this daughter? Like, how do I connect with this child? And so my mother really grew up in a relationship with a mother that was very strained on, on the one hand, cold and the other hand very enmeshed. And those were the conditions of her early childhood. So now she ends up having a child. Well, when she has a child, her conceptualization of what a mother is, how a mother loves, how a mother holds, it's not the same as one would have today in in our world. And that then gets carried on into the next generation, right? So now I'm born now many years later, right? But now, now I'm born.

6:15 So now I have a certain relationship and understanding of, of, of connecting with a child. And so the question is, do I continue that forward or do I break that cycle? And usually what, what I, I see in practice is that when people come in, they're kind of being called forward in their, in their line, in their lineage to stop some cycle of recurring trauma. And that's sort of where my work begins with them. Wow, wow, I got I got so I got so much to to to say and ask about or follow up with. One thing that I that, that I, you know, from my own experience that I think, and I would love to just hear what your thoughts are in this, within this context to this perspective, is my grandfather was very, my dad's father was very tough on my father in the typical, you know, I guess, I mean, my grandfather, I guess is in his early 90s now.

7:26 So, you know, my dad was growing up in the 80s with a typical, you know, 40s dad, I guess. And, and then, you know, and he went out of his way the rest of his life to specifically not be like that, you know, and so he became very anti, you call it anti authoritarian or anti hands on. And, you know, and he basically just wanted whatever made us happy. And he didn't really have too much of A preference. And if he did, he'd generally keep it to himself and try to do everything the opposite of what his dad did. And I, I mean, he definitely succeeded in that, you know, and then, and then, you know, 25 years later, I'm saying, or 30 years later, I'm standing around and I'm saying, I wish that I was, you know, held a little bit more accountable in my life because I would have loved for something, you know, I would have loved to have a heads up that, you know, that amount of discipline or work that it takes. And then I'm going to just, and then, and so you kind of have the same type of it's, it's another cycle, but it's a cycle of a swinging pendulum, if that makes sense, you know, from one end to the next.

8:31 And is that, is that something that, is there a, would you, would you, if I was sitting down and explaining this to you, how would you go about trying to resolve that? Unless you just say that's what life is and that's what nature is and that's what families are. And the best you could do is be conscious. Or is there an underlying, you know, symptom, I guess cause and the way that they manifest is just symptoms. So it doesn't make a difference whether you're being hands on or hands off. There's a, you know, there's a problem that's underneath it that's causing you to be too much of one or the other. And that's what that's what it is. I think OK, so I, I think the answer is yes and yes.

9:11 So the, the, the keyword here is balance, right? So your grandfather again, we can use this word, I like this word ecology, like the ecology that created a condition in which your grandfather micromanaged to became authoritarian, like he, he, that there may have been a lack of safety somewhere in your grandfather's life. And So what does he do right? He exerts just overwhelming efforts to control everything in the environment or because he, he does not want to be in a, in a situation where he is unsafe again, nor does he want his children to be unsafe again. So he creates all of these structures and those structures are suffocating. So then your father comes along, he notices all of that. And then he he said, well, that's absolutely devastated me. I'm going to be the opposite of that. The pendulum swings in the opposite direction. The answer is somewhere in the middle, right? Like we need as children, we do need structure. We don't need suffocation.

10:16 We don't need enmeshment. We don't need a situation where where we have no breathing room and then we cannot develop into the authentic version of ourselves. We end up having having to become whatever version our parents squeeze out of us, right. So the answer is somewhere in the middle. And now you have the benefit of seeing both sides of the opposite ends of the swing. And you say to yourself, my son, my daughter needs structure, but she doesn't need suffocation. She can be safe and held without being smothered, right? So this is, this is how you break that cycle.

11:00 You, what you end up, what you end up sharing with her, what you end up giving her is a sense that she can be herself. And yet there is a foundation that she can stand on. She's not standing on sand, right? And, and, and I think that's, that's the key to developing a healthy psyche. And, and then one in which, as she moves forward with her own children, she will be reminded of the fact that that this is how I was raised and I'm healthy and I and I and I'm functional and I'm, I'm myself. I'm, I'm true to myself. I want my kids to have that meaning. I should raise them in the the flavor of how I was raised and that that perpetuates a more positive cycle, I believe. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

11:50 Which is what I guess we're ultimately hoping for. I think I, I mean, I think that there's a lot more. I mean, I, I think I'm certain that there's a lot more conscious. I think people are. And maybe it's just what I've seen in my circle, but I've definitely seen that a tendency in the last couple of years for people to start looking more inwardly than I've ever experienced before. And I don't know if it's, you know, due to a certain point in my life that I'm, that I'm arriving to, you know, the, I guess, more mature adult years as, as you know, as you start taking on more responsibilities, late 20s, early 30s. But I've been saying, I mean, and it's, it's really, it's it, it, it makes me feel really hopeful because, you know, I mean, on one hand, they're the kind of people where you talk to them and it sounds like they haven't really put much thought into who they were since, you know, since you saw them last in high school or college and it's been a decade or two, you know, and then there's the people that you talk to. You could see they're really being very, they're really self-conscious and they're on this kind of, you know, journey towards themselves.

12:50 And I think it's, you know, I think it you there used to be a certain stigma to that, the same way there used to be stigma to therapy and stigma to mental health. That hope is just kind of starting to drift away. Yeah. I mean, they're the awareness today and how how we are moving towards being more in tune with ourselves. I think it's far more profound than it was 20-30 years ago. Without doubt, there is an intentionality to be right with yourself and also to look at at your behaviour. That being said, I think it's still a fairly small number of people in reference to the general public because I, I get a fair number of clients who, you know, people that bring in their kids and I'll meet with the kids. And almost certainly when I see children in the office, you know, I want to see the parents.

13:51 When I see the parents, I I begin to understand the kids. Like everything makes sense. Once I see the parents, it's it's, it's inevitable. I feel the same way with my high school students. It's crazy. I love the parent teacher night because I meet the parents and I'm like Oh my God everything just make everything makes sense now. Like this clicks too good and. And, and, and, and it's interesting because those parents, they, they, there's no awareness or there's very little awareness. Like they, they don't see the interplay of their behaviors and how they cast a shadow onto their kids. And then the kid, the kids have these, you know, behaviors or these symptoms, depression, anxiety, ticks, panic, whatever it may be.

14:32 But they don't see how the ecology of the, of the kids life is perpetuating it. I'm not saying the parents are the cause of it, but many times the parents, because they, they haven't done their own work. What's that? I, I would, I, I, I picture it almost like they set the stage and you can, you know, and you can do what you want within the stage, but you know, you have a lot of surroundings that are accessible to you that you know, that you're not necessarily choosing, but are just, you know, kind of. You think the other the other set the stage or they light the stage on fire. No, they're going to pour gasoline on it like they do little to, they do little to soothe the, the issues that come up because they, they themselves are not soothed. They, they themselves are, have not worked through something. And it goes back to that same generational trauma situation, right where we're back to that, that conversation. So whenever, whenever I have a, a kid come in by default, I'm almost always going to send that family into family therapy because something is happening there. And and I see this over and over and over again. That's really, really interesting. So you're saying when a kid comes in, it's generally because there needs to be bigger picture work that needs to be done? Not just, you know, this kid has ADD and he's sitting, he has a hard time in 3rd grade math class or whatever. Yeah.

15:56 I mean, there's, there's, it's kind of systems work or there's something happening in the system. And if the system starts to change, things will change in the environment, Things will change and that may ease things. Does that mean that every kid that that has ADHD has some of a problematic family environment? Not necessarily, but we may not need to rush to medication, we may not need to, to rush to certain things. If certain things in the environment can be changed, you know, behaviorally adapting and seeing what's happening in the family that a lot of times that's, that is so helpful And, and it changes dynamics because many times there are comorbidities, right? It's not just ADHD, it's ADHD and then there's anxiety or there's ADHD and then there's some kind of like impulse issues or, or anger issues or depression or whatever, whatever the mood issues might be, something else is at play.

16:49 And so if we can tone that down, if we can resolve that, then we can look at the ADHD and see what's really needed here. So I, I, I rarely rush to medication and people come in the first, you know, I think my kid needs, you know, Adderall or my kid needs Ritalin or whatever. And I'm like, wow, we're, we're on a jump in the gun on that. Let's let's just figure out what's happening here and let's first see if we can help this child to to navigate their life a little bit without rushing to give them medication. So what are what are So what would be, you know, a kid comes in and a parent comes in, brings a kid in and they're in 8th grade. They're having a hard time. You know, they, they say they have AD they want Ritalin or they want, you know, whatever. And what are some things that you would do or tell the parents or practices to that that that that would what would what happens that causes the change that caused the kid to, I guess, manage it a little better?

17:47 And what's happening that allows it to happen without medication is that is that question, is that, is that clear? Yeah. I mean, I think what you're saying is what's happening in the environment that needs to change that would that will maybe help the kid without. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, we're kind of, I feel like we're used to just like saying, oh, this kid has, you know, some kind of problem, you know, issue. It's a learning disability, it's a challenge, it's whatever it is. And there's just nothing that can be do nothing that can be done about it, you know? But I guess I, you know, we're saying that that's not correct, right? Yeah, I mean, I, I, I really firmly believe that when a child comes in, I want to talk to that child. I want to understand, like, what's their emotional state? What are, what are they going through? And it's hard sometimes because for kids to share, especially if they're going through something they have, you have to build rapport.

18:41 You have to, there has to be a sense of trust between you and the kid that they, they know that they can talk to you. And a lot of times you know, they can't, they haven't talked to their parents or, or something's happening at school. There might be bullying involved. There are so many complicated factors that the dynamics of, of being a, a young person today, it's very different than the dynamics of being a young person when I was a kid, right? There's just a lot more. Absolutely. I mean, we, we can, we can dive into sort of my feelings about social media and about what I've seen it do to kids in these last maybe 10 years. But there are a lot of things at play. And so I'm going to have several meetings with the kid, the parents to understand what is happening here. You know, a lot of times with, with children, schools these days are much more geared towards identifying kids that are struggling and they will have them tested. So a lot of times I will, I will get reports already from the school, other school psychologists or outside psychologists that have met with the teachers, met with the parents, met with the student, have gone to the school, have done testing.

19:50 There's a lot of work that's been put in before the kid will come to me. And now we're looking to see how can we best support this child because they've been identified as having ADHD. So then I'm going to look at what other factors are at play. Are there, you know, mood issues? There's, and so many times there are, are there are there any kind of anxiety issues? Because you know, when a kid is anxious, when a kid is panicked, guess what? They're not paying attention. They're in their own head. There's negative self talk, They're, they're, they're, they're, they're dissociated sometimes. And so it appears like this kid is not paying attention, but this kid is actually paying attention to everything that's happening inside of them.

20:34 And so that needs to be addressed. And so that's kind of that's, it's a complicated process. It's not just A1 size fits all. I, I need to see what is happening. And I really believe that this environmental approach, that that's how I've been trained and that's, and, and it seems that that it makes sense that we live in systems and if those systems are broken, we are going to be broken as well. And, and there's another part to this and that is resilience. So different kids, different kinds of resilience, right? Kids that grow up, they're able to sort of they're, they feel supported, they feel like they, they have the wherewithal to get through whatever it takes.

21:18 They have a positive attitude about life. They're going to navigate something very differently than a kid that feels that they're less than a kid that feels that they're not supported, a kid that feels there's nowhere to turn to for support. And I've. Noticed a different outcome. I've noticed, I've noticed as a high school teacher, because I used to really, I was very, very insecure until, until I was about, you know, maybe 8/17/18 years old. I, I, I had very little security in myself and I was, you know, and it helps me, I guess, identify or, you know, I could see similar, you know, kids with similar kind of expressions or, you know, body behavior language that you know, or tendencies that, that I had.

22:03 And it is incredible how easy and how easy it is to build a kid up and actually give him a little bit more of a sense of self. You know, I think that I think a lot of times what I've seen in the last just a couple of years teaching, and I'm only doing it for, you know, there's my 4th year doing it. But one thing I've seen countless times is that by telling a kid, I know you've got more in you, you're, you know, you're great and let's, I would love to see it. I want to work with you to bring it out. They start to believe it very, very quickly. All they need to do is hear it a lot of the times, you know, so a lot of times I, I, I, I, I've noticed that it almost feels like there's a lack of positive, positive reinforcement. And kids that do get that probably could get, you know, a stronger sense of resilience or or will or determination, I imagine, right.

22:56 One 100% and moreover also being heard because a lot of times what happens is parents initial response or even sometimes educators initial responses to tell the kid what they should do to get better. Like if you did this, you're going to do better. And almost immediately it doesn't matter what the kid is going through. They, they begin to sort of fawn to, to, to the, to these statements that are made. So they, they, they, they put on a happy face. They try and like achieve some things, but they're not really being heard. They're not really being, yeah, their, their self concept is not being developed. It's just an imprint of whatever they're being told laying on top of them. And so, yeah, absolutely. I just, I just showed, I just showed that my high school, my MY11 class yesterday, the song Father and Son by Cat Stevens. And we were talking and the line and I pulled up the lyrics while we were talking, you know, while we were listening. And there's A and the line from the moment I could talk, I was ordered to listen, you know, and, and, and everyone was able, you know, felt immediately like, whoa, you know, and how can I try to explain?

24:06 When I do? He turns away again, you know, and it's always the same old story. And I was like, how many of you guys have just felt like no matter what you try to tell an adult or your parent or, you know, a teacher that like whatever you say, they're not hearing what you're saying, you know, and they just want you to hear what they're saying. And I mean that I think that's that that is that is the, you know, that's, that's the pain and challenges of being of being a kid. I really, I really believe in. I think that's actually what causes a lot of the amazing creativity and self-expression that usually comes as like a quote UN quote defiance of that. You know, that's why the youth culture has always been so creative and prominent because it comes from a place of being. You know, a lot of times they're being shut down or ignored until they just have to be heard and explode into something, you know, about creativity or and sometimes disaster, you know, I mean, there's a reason why the 27 Club exists and why so many great artists die at such a young age at. 100% yeah.

25:01 I agreed. And I love, I love that you brought Cat Stevens into the class and, and, and had the kids listen and identify with that. It's like, it's like the concepts and the issues are timeless, right? They just went on and on and on. Yeah, they're just human. They're just. Human as we were, yeah, as we were talking, I was going to sort of infuse another sort of part of this genealogical or not, but sort of this heritage, right? This Jewish heritage concept in in that talking about resilience with kids, right. And how that develops. And I can give you these two small vignettes. Like one of these vignettes is from my my wife's family, her similar stories.

25:42 She's from the same town as I am, the same city as I'm from. And during and during the war, her grandfather, her grandfather, her grandmother had this romance. They were in love with each other and they had two children. And then the war starts and in the very first days of the war, the the grandfather gets hung in the middle of the city. So he's he's killed. And so the mother is in in shock and they get they get evacuated also to Uzbekistan with the mother. And these two children get evacuated. But the mother is very is a very different kind of woman who comes from a very strong Jewish family with with long roots in that area.

26:28 They've lived there for sort of hundreds of years and a very proud family. So she, she gets with these kids to his Becky stand and it's almost like she sustains a joy for life like that, that there can be darkness, but you must sustain a, a sense of light inside of you, even in the darkness. And she raises these kids with this understanding that no matter what, you will persevere. No matter how bad life is, you can find joy in life. You know, they, they end up like, they're basically starving in Uzbekistan, like they have no money. They have nobody that they know. They're, they get through it.

27:09 The mother works on this in this factory. The these are two little kids. They get back to Odessa after the war and as so many Jewish families that came back from evacuation, the apartments that they had lived in maybe for, you know, decades or for more than decades, for hundreds of years. Those apartments are now inhabited by Ukrainians and Russians who have basically just moved into the apartments that were empty. And, and they're told get the hell out. You don't, you know, these are, this isn't your apartment anymore. And, and here you have this mother with two little kids and she's walking around the city and trying to, you know, find somewhere to go and ends up in a basement. You know, there's a murky basement with these two kids and they live in this basement for like almost a decade in, in a basement in a, a subterranean basement where it gets cold in, in Ukraine. It freezes there and, and, and, and it's not a good life, but the mother comes home from the factory, She sings with the kids.

28:06 She really, she, she sustains that life for them. And eventually she actually ends up dying quite young. But the kids grow up with an understanding that that life moves on and you must stay positive. And then my wife's mother, the one that one of the children that was in the story, ends up basically giving my wife that same sense of joy and optimism in life. It's beautiful and. No matter what she sustains that optimism, right. They eventually they immigrate to United States, they make a life for themselves here and my wife and my wife was born in in Ukraine, but but she she sustains that sense that no matter what we will make it.

28:49 And that was a very different kind of woman and kind of resilience then the resilience that my mother gained from her mother, who was broken by the death of her daughter, who was broken by the war. Yeah. And so it it's, it's it's so powerful what we give our kids. They can navigate through so, so much darkness, if we can, can infuse that light into their lives. And if we can't and they end up sort of like later in life, realizing that they don't want to live their life in darkness, then then, then we as adults, you know, can move towards that as well. We can find a new way.

29:30 We can find a new kind of, of, of motto or a new kind of a mantra to live our life with. And that's sort of where I come in. That's, that's, that's, that's where I try and guide or at least be a partner in that process. So that's kind of another story, right? We. We. Talk about the. Trauma, the trauma of, of our people and, and, and, and that's just within the last, you know, the last 100 years, it's like 7080 years. It's pretty amazing. Like in there have been so many traumas for us, right? There's a if you, if we, if we really go back, there have been so many traumas. The stories are endless. I, I'm, I'm, yeah. I mean, I'm just there.

30:13 There's so many they choose from. It's like I, we, we, we need to figure out what our topic is and then I'm sure there's a story to match. That yeah, well, let's well, let's keep on, let's keep on going because I'm loving I I, I think that I'm loving this and, and all the anecdotes and I actually, I actually think and I'm and, and so and I'm curious what your thoughts are on this, especially, you know, with introducing this notion in mind that there that aside from generational trauma, there's there's got to be cultural trauma, you know, I mean there's got to be just. And, you know, just the fact that, you know, a group of people and call any people, it doesn't make, you know, it doesn't have to be the Jews.

30:53 It could be the Irish, it could be, you know, it could be the Africans, it could be the Taiwanese. It doesn't make a difference, you know, but a group of people that have that, that, that as a society have suffered and the, and there, and therefore the decisions they make as as a society and as a community bears the weight of their psychology, the group psychology, you know, so like almost the psychology of countries or, or, or large entities, I would call it, you know, because it's, I mean, it's very, very clear when you just look at the world that that is what's causing a lot of the conflict today is just generational trauma between nations that are just better equipped to, to, to Duke things out than two individuals might be, you know, or two parents might be or whatever it is. It's much easier to Duke things out than it is to actually sit down, talk, heal, find, find a way forward. That's a yeah, because you're doing it for, because you can't do it for millions of people that are part of your society necessarily.

32:03 Right. I think that the cultural trauma that that that frame to look through is, is very interesting For me. This is small, another small kind of anecdote. I remember that that my wife's uncle who lives in Germany, right, he's Jewish, immigrated from the Soviet Union to Germany. And he sat with me having dinner one night and he said to me, you know, that it's very important for us, for us as people to not stick our heads out. It's, it's a Russian phrase, Nivasova vaiset means don't stand out right now. I, I thought about that for a very, very long time, that statement of don't stand out. What, what, what, where that comes from. And it comes from this cultural trauma. It's this trauma of being a Jew, right? We don't live in our country.

32:53 We did not live in our country. We live in the Soviet Union, right? It's different when you live in Israel, but to live in another country, to be the minority and the minority that that very frequently was not adored, right? Very frequently was a vilified minority, right? Because we what, what are our values? Our values are education, family, right? Like that, that kind of strength. So, so we send our kids to school. We value that art. We, we tend to do well because we, we excel at, at these things that are hard, but they are valuable to us as a culture. And so, but to live in a country like that, you don't want to stand out because the one that stands out gets his face beaten.

33:40 The one that stands out ends up losing his job, the one that stands out and might end up getting killed. And so it's an interesting statement for me because it's coming from one generation, a much older generation to a younger generation that has not grown up up until a certain point with anti-Semitism. I, I really did not know what anti-Semitism was, but he did, he thought very clearly, right? And so to the, the trauma that he had had to have gone through to live his life being meek, right? Be meek, be small, be hidden. That's the underlying, that's, that's the communication from him.

34:22 Don't stick your head out. Be silent. Very different from from how I was raised, right? What do you mean be proud? Be Jewish. Yeah. Put your head out. Right. Look it up. Look at all of the successes of our people. Look what we have accomplished. Look at this small country in the desert that, that that has grown and flourished into a a first world nation, right? Be proud of that. It's it's, it's, it's like we in some way again, my generation was raised very different and wow, what a slap in the face. October 7th was right. Right. Well, and yeah, like yeah, and and and and subsequent time since then. Oh, but I'm saying 100% like that, that that's I'm just saying that framework, what happened on October 7th and what followed, what a rude awakening for so many people. I think, you know, Jews, I meant to say, yeah, even in my, in my, in my groups, I have seen how that sense of betrayal and that sense of wow, maybe we really shouldn't stick our neck out. Maybe we move our head out.

35:34 Maybe we maybe they were right. Maybe things aren't as good as we as we thought they were. And, and, and and taking, taking stock of that and then realizing absolutely not. We are not going to live our lives that way. We are not. No one's going backwards. The the only way is forward and through. So it's another interesting sort of going back to this concept of cultural trauma. I think that that the whole October 7th situation was so traumatic and it was traumatic because for so many people it what we thought was not accurate. Like we were, we were living in a bit of a delusion, it feels like.

36:17 And now it's like now that we've seen it, now that we've, now that a light has shone upon that was shined upon, that we actually need to make the world right with what our image was like. We, we now realize that there is a, a job we're called to kind of, we have a, we have a, an important mission to make the world right with, with how our vision was. And it must be that vision, but it must be that the world is improving that that that anti-Semitism diminishes, not increases. So we have to now live our lives that way. And before we were kind of sedated, we were, we were this halcyonic idea of, of the world being, you know, somewhat being a friendly. And now it seems less so.

37:06 Yeah, yeah, it's, I spend a lot of time thinking about this and one thing that I, and I don't know why I even think this way, but a lot of times I tend to, when it comes to a conflict, I tend to look inward a lot and see, you know, what I would have done to potentially 'cause, you know, a problem. And then, and then because I'm usually tough myself and then I would, and then I would give, you know, I would give. I mean, there are times where you're even giving someone the benefit of the doubt, like, you know, behaviour doesn't, you know, justify itself. But one of the first things that I do is kind of look in and be like, am I acting in a way? Am I, am I just being defensive right now? Am I just acting like this because I'm just being a jerk about it? And I'm like, because me on the other end of it, or you know what?

37:51 I, what I care, but I think that, you know, I, I don't know, I don't know what to do with all this. I don't know what to I, I, I haven't known what to do with the last 2 1/2 years of, you know, my Jewish and, you know, my Jewish identity, my love for Israel, my love for America, my love for my love for people, you know, and, and it just feels like no matter what I do or what I think or what, or who or what I, or what I listen to or anything that I, or anything, anyone that I talk to, everything kind of just ends up going in circles. So it's really, I don't really, you know, and I think that all this and a part of the reason I think this happened is because everything is so entangled in so many different perspectives and philosophies and histories and different understandings of things that I almost feel like everyone can make a case from every single, you know, side that they're standing on about everything that they do.

38:56 But then what you know, like, OK, so now everyone has a case and now what do we do? Like we're still, we're still at a stalemate, right? So, so how do you, so how do we move forward? What do we do to move forward? You know, and that's kind of what I've been what I've been stuck on. And I don't really know, I don't think anyone really knows to do about it. Or if they do, I haven't found that. I haven't found them yet. Well, I mean, I think that this is sort of the, the generational impasse, right? We've, we've, we've been, we've been standing at a crossroads here. Somebody gains an inch, some, another person gains an inch and goes back and forth and back and forth. And it's been that way now for decades, right? The, the reality is that you said it correctly. Everyone can make a case from every side, right? That's true.

39:44 There's no doubt about that. It just depends on what side you're standing on that, that, that that narrative seems more appropriate or more right, depending on the side that you're standing on. And ultimately, I feel like the people, and this isn't maybe like even even a full answer, but you know what? There are people that are trying to look at everything and say, look, this is all true. All the pain, all the suffering, all of it, it's all true. And yet we need to find a way forward. You know we're not going anywhere, right? Jews aren't going anywhere. Palestinians aren't going anywhere. We're here.

40:25 Something has to give. We have to find a way forward. Because killing each other endlessly till the end of time, it's not a solution, right? And and and. You don't have you don't have an appetite. To know that there is. Like the world doesn't have an appetite. The world doesn't have an appetite for it, you know? I mean we, we, you know. I mean, every war ends, I mean. Yeah, big everything does this is this is this. Is Protestants fought the Catholics for you know what, 100 years, eventually, eventually all wars end. The question is, do we want to, you know, do we want to keep killing until, you know, another 100 years and then, and then find a solution anyway, or do we sit down and try and find a solution?

41:09 It, it's, it's, it's very, it's, it is so complicated. But you know, reminds me of that. What's, what's the, the old saying from the fiddler on the roof? I think if, if we all live our lives as a eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, we're going to all end up being. Blind and toothless. Yeah, we're going to all end up blind and toothless, right? So, so, so at some point, right, And there are groups, I mean, I, I'm aware of this, right? There are groups that are sitting down together and they're figuring out how to navigate this. They're figuring out how do we live with each other and not against each other. And I, and I don't have the answer. And I, and certainly I am, I am just as susceptible to the emotional swings of this, of these last few years, right?

41:56 I, I, I, I am, I, I've experienced the grief, the pain, the anger, the sorrow, it's, it's all moved through me. I, I, you know, I participated in the, in the Nova, you know. The yeah, the museum, that's the. Yeah, but. They, they, they, they did A at Burning Man. They did a Nova memorial tent. And, and my wife and I, we were, we were volunteers at that tent and it was so incredibly moving. It was so incredibly moving. Can. You tell me about that. With all these people. About that whole experience, including that, can you tell me about that whole experience including Burning Man, just like from the top?

42:39 Because that actually sounds like an awesome story and I would love to fill in context for anyone that doesn't know, you know, that's not familiar with it. Oh, yeah. I, I, I, I mean, this is by far one of the most, one of the deepest and most meaningful experiences of our, of our life. You know, there was a Nova festival in Israel, right? It was the original attack when, when, when the Palestinians crossed the border and there was this kind of side trans rave happening in the desert. It was, it was a, it was a rave for peace and for, for unity, actually. And they attacked this festival. They killed, raped, maimed. It was a, it was a mass insanity. There was a moving museum exhibit around the world that moved with, which was beautifully done as well, which they sort of explained all of it. And they had, they had this material, all of these artifacts from the site.

43:33 Anyway, the the original organizers of Nova decided to bring the a copy of the tent from the festival to Burning Man and to set it up as a memorial to the to the, the, the young people that were killed. Because Burning Man is this amazing art and music event. I don't want to call it a festival. It's not a festival. It is a gathering of, of people that kind of live the best of humanity, try and exhibit the best of humanity, the values of humanity with no, with no commodification, no, no money exchanged. And there's, there's beautiful artwork, there's music, there's just, it's, it's, it's an amazing event. There is nothing on the planet, I think, quite like it. And so the organizers gathered money. They brought this gigantic tent to the desert. They set up the tent.

44:32 They created these spiral staircases and they lined the staircases with wooden steps and on each of the steps there was an Angel, a cut out wooden Angel with the name of one of the kids that was. Killed at the. Festival and it was all lit up and then and throughout the week long festival they had these art cars which which are these large lit up cars, many of them have music systems on them. They would have them come and they would they would create an environment for people to dance with these angels under the tent. And the, the organizers asked for volunteers to, to stand guard as guardians of the tent and not so much guardians if something bad would happen, but to be there to, to talk to people, to help share, to help hug, to help support in whatever way was necessary.

45:26 And these guardians stood basically every day for seven days, 24 hours a day in shift. So there were, there were, you know, I mean, there was like 4 to 6 guardians at this tent throughout every night. So basically protectors of the tent. And it was incredibly moving to, to, to do one of those shifts with my wife and some of our friends because people came to, you know, to talk to, to cry, to listen to music, to, to bring some kind of a, you know, small artifact or something. And we had so many people come. We had this, we had this gigantic group come in. They were like Catholics or something that had been at a, a festival in the desert around the same time as Nova and they heard that it happened and they were so moved and so like it was so heavy for them that they all came together and they wanted to dance under the Nova fan, under the Nova tent with all of these spirits of the, of the, the lost young people that that were at the festival. It was, I mean, it was incredibly moving. And the, the end of the, the Nova experience there was the last day, the Saturday of Burning Man. It was the day that the man is burned. There was a gigantic a sunrise gathering. There were thousands of people and they brought these three art cars to the sunrise and they had this woman, her name is Scarlett Delatorre.

46:54 She is a beautiful singer, guitarist. She sang Jewish prayers and Jewish songs on one of these art cars to all these people. And they had a basically a memorial like a service. And then at the exact time that the music stopped at Nova, So at the, at the hour at which they turned the music off because the attack had started, the original DJs that had been at Nova were there at Burning Man, the ones that survived. And they started the music back up and, and the whole crowd started dancing. It was just. It was just. It was insanity. You, you. People were crying. You, you, you, you, you.

47:35 The energy of it, the intensity of it, I mean, it was, it was the best of us. You know, that's, that's the best way I can say it. It was it was really the the best of our people. You think that? Yeah. I think that there's something to something incredible to and I think that it's something that we kind of lost recently, definitely during COVID, but I think is so integral and that's embodied group experiences. And those embody group experiences, whether it's Burning Man or whether it's going to a movie with 50 other people or 100 other people and laughing or crying together or going to a baseball game or a concert or anything like that.

48:20 Going to these embody group experiences seem to amplify and bring, seem to amplify, you know, whatever, whatever you're experiencing, you know, and, and I, and I've been thinking a lot about in general about what a lot of today's problems are and a lot of it is isolation and loneliness. And I wish that, you know, I wish that there are ways to do to encourage more, more of that type of activity because I know for my own sake. And I've actually had this experience recently, I moved to my neighborhood in Hollywood, FL, you know, a couple of years back.

49:04 And I, you know, and there was, and I became friends with a group of other young dads who has, you know, anywhere from 2:00 to 4:00 or five kids. And you know, we hang out maybe once or twice a week minimum, even if it's for 20-30 minutes at a time, you know, and it just, you know, we just get together. If it's a tough week, you know, we end up either laughing or complaining or sharing or whatever it is. We hang out, we have a beer. And you know, we go home before anything, you know, before anything. It's crazier before, you know, in case you miss any of our responsibilities. But you know, there's every single person in the group, their personal lives, their family lives, their lives have just gone like immeasurably better just by talking, you know, just by talking to them that they just feel like everything is better, You know, And I, I really, really wish that people would realize or I guess that, you know, that there would be more emphasis in society on, on more group activities like that, because I think that we have these little experiences. And then like, even if you have a thought and then if you say the thought out loud, it changes the way that you, you know, you emotionally process it.

50:12 And then when you say it out loud to a person or five people or 100 people, or you share that experience together, then it just, the growth is exponential. And it's, it almost feels like that's been cut off from our society. I can't agree with you more. I think it's you're totally right. I think that isolation is the death of us. We are at heart social animals, right? We don't live. We're not, we're not. We might think that we're individualistic and we are, but at the same time, we exist in social groups. And I think that something has been lost. And I think it's not just COVID.

50:56 You know, at one point in this country, there were social organizations, right? The Lions, the, the, all the social groups right there. There were, there were church groups, there were cultural groups, there were the Shriners, there were the people belonged to organizations. And it was a place for you to go to have a beer, glass of wine, to talk to have a dinner and a weekend, right. To some degree, the the church and the synagogues that have the, the Shabbats and the, and the Sunday Masses where people bring food. Those are all conditions in which we gather as a community and community is one of the fundamental pillars of mental health.

51:43 And the the model that I was trained in includes that meaning like how is your relationship with yourself? How is your relationship with your community? And how is your relationship with your purpose, your passion and your creativity? Like if, if those three things, if you can answer great to those three things, it's very unlikely that you're going to be a depressed person. It's very unlikely that you're going to be suffering from panic attacks and anxiety. So you said self focusing on self. Repeat the three It's self. What is your community? It's a. Check in right. This is a check in that, that, that we do as a treatment team in our, in our practice.

52:24 And, and the question is what is your relationship or how is your relationship with yourself? How is your relationship with your community? That could be your family, your parents, your, your wife, your, your, your greater community. And how is your relationship with your purpose or your creativity? Those are the three questions. If you can, if you can honestly answer those questions and, and feel that you are right with those things, that they are good, that you, that you are connected well to yourself, that you, you, you, you believe in yourself. You speak well to it, to yourself, right? If you have that connection with, with the people around you, they reflect your value back at you, right? You're not living in a vacuum. People see you, appreciate you, and you have a relationship with a sense that there is meaning in your life and what you do either be it creativity, be it meaning through the, the, the, what you bring into the world.

53:16 It is very unlikely that you were going to have a mental health problem. Does that mean it will never happen? Of course not, but it's very unlikely. Fascinating So. It's it's crazy because it sounds, it sounds simple. Oh, is it? I mean, how many people that you know, if you ask them how is your relationship with your purpose? Like are you, do you feel like you're living your purpose and living your creativity are gonna tell you, yeah, absolutely. I love my job or I love this. I'm I'm doing the greatest. Exactly. Yeah, but I don't, I believe that he's working. You know, that comes down to education, I think, doesn't it? I mean, that comes down to conditioning and, and education.

53:57 You know, I, I, I think we're, I think a lot of people are taught to stifle that kind of thing or that there are bigger priorities or values than those things. And we feel like, you know, it feels like we just experienced a giant, you know, a giant countrywide experiment. And the answer is that, that, you know, for mental health, that, you know, that the pursuit of, you know, money or status or power or position over all else, including passion, community and relationships does not work. And like you know, and I think that. Correct. You know, but I don't think that it's so I don't think that it's necessarily hard to do.

54:37 I think we have to adjust the way that we adjust our our values. And I think that's actually probably a lot more easily done than you realize. Think about how, how, how few people, how much fewer people drink alcohol today than 5 or 10 years ago or, you know, have limited their alcohol consumption and, and, and you know, and I mean, I know that a huge part of that more. Smoke cigarettes, for that matter. Or smoke cigarettes, right? Or, or, or or trying to be healthier in terms of the type of processed foods they're eating, right? Like these cultural shifts, even, it might not take over completely yet or even ever. But I mean, once it's in the zeitgeist and once people are aware of it, then and, and especially, I think what's going to be fascinating is as AI takes away jobs or, you know, and as you know, jobs kind of become less and less hands on, people are going to be forced to confront these three things.

55:29 Your relationship with yourself, your relationship with, you know, your community or your relationships otherwise, I guess external ones, and then finally your passions. That's the, that's the thing that we're actually kind of, I feel like hurling towards. And the scary thing is that a lot of people don't even know what to do with that. Oh, A. 100% I mean, a lot of my, a lot of my work, when people come in to my office and they, they meet with me, the treatment plan that I write frequently, it, it, it is essentially a, a view into these three directions. Like that's, that's what I do. I, I, I'm looking at how do I realign with you, right? How do I partner with you to realign your relationship with yourself, your relationship with your community, and to stand with you as you find your purpose, meaning and passion or creativity in life?

56:27 That that is the treatment plan. It's not my treatment plan is very rarely take two Prozacs and call me in the morning. That's that, that may be a, a very small aspect of that relationship with self. Because if you're in darkness, in a, in a state of such despair that you cannot see beyond that, then we are going to give you something to try and help you deal so that you can then look at these three things in a more rational way. But that's usually the only reason that I would give medication, right? So I think that these three pillars are fundamental. And I, I, and I truly believe, like, I, I believe it's so much that I practice it with my wife on a weekly basis.

57:10 We have our, we have this tradition. We do Sundays in the Jacuzzi with our coffee. So we literally get into the Jacuzzi. We have a small little Jacuzzi outside of our backyard. We sit down with our, with our like a cup of coffee and we ask each other these three questions like, how is your relationship with yourself? How is your relationship with your community? How is your relationship with your, with your purpose? And, and we talk. We, we, we have a, we have a small little download, you know, it's, it's not an hour long thing. It's like, you know, this has been a tough week. I've, I've, I've been struggling. It's, you know, I didn't meditate this, this morning, yadda, yadda, yadda. But I feel really great with my community. Everybody is, you know, everybody's well, everybody's happy, healthy. And I, I feel like they're, you know, they're there for me.

57:52 So it, it, it doesn't need to be long, but, but to be able to discuss that and to, to check in with each other, right? Like you check in with your friends and that beer, right? That's, that's, that's that check in. Doesn't need to be so structured, But this just happens to work for us. And, and I think it's, it's great because it, it is a, it's a access point into how we're doing. I mean, a lot of times we're, we're kind of pivoting out of our, we're moving through our discussion very, very fluidly. A lot of times when couples come in and I and I meet with them, what I get is the sense that like their relationship, there's no time for them. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course they discussed like, you know, the groceries and the car payments and the this and they go to work and they go search their parents or they they watch, watch the kids, but but where is.

58:43 They stop dating. Relationship with each other. Right, they stop. They stop dating and they start. They start the units. Right. But, but, but the problem is that all of a sudden you realize that you've you've you've poured yourself 2 beautiful pairs of concrete shoes. It's like, it's just, it's stifling. Like you, you you never stop dating. You never stop dating. That's the that's the secret of a great relationship. You never stop dating. You never stop having sex. You never stop. You never stop. Yeah. And and the night you do, it's like, it's like you. Lose it or lose it in here, you lose. Use it or lose it. Yeah, you got one sense. 100 percent, 100%.

59:25 How can I ask, how do you get, how do you help people find their passions? Because I, I want to know for my own sake, but I also know that a lot of people, you know, especially people that have kind of been off put to this general notion or ideal, you know, for the entire lives. And, you know, passions are stupid and you have to have a career. Or if your career, if you're going to have a career, it doesn't have, you know, it's more important that you make money than be something that you're passionate about and make a little bit less money, whatever it is. But how would you or even do something on the side? How do you help someone identify a passion when they don't know what their passions are? Yeah, Oh, I mean, it's, it's actually the coolest part.

1:00:06 It's the best part of the of, of the profession. So, so, you know, first of all, most, most people didn't grow up with hobbies or, or, or any kind of pursuits. They've lost the connection to, right? That the ability to understand what it means to experience joy for the sake of joy, right? Not joy for the sake of, I'm going to make money on the back end of this, right? Like the question becomes, how do you feel when you are doing this? How are you feeling when you do this? Well, you have to do things to know how you're going to feel. So the most important thing, the number one factor to to be able to help someone and, and, and sort of stand with them as they find their passion, their creativity, whatever is a willing candidate, right?

1:00:57 So you need someone that says, I'm going to do it. I'm going to go and I'm going to do these things. I'm going to go take this class, I'm going to go to this event, I'm going to go dancing. Because if you don't have a partner, you cannot drag them. You know, heels ground, ground into the ground and like, you know, a kicking and screaming to some event or some course, you need a willing candidate. And so the my first job is to try and convince them of the importance of this, to find something of meaning. So I had this client who came in and his whole thing was he cannot find a good Jewish woman. He's like, he was just struggling. He'd, he'd gone to the matchmaker. He did this, he did that, tried all these different things and nothing was working.

1:01:45 And I said, you know, how about you just go and do something you enjoy doing and in the process of enjoyment you might find someone also enjoys. Yes, that's how I make friends. By the way, What? Does he do? Because, you know, I've always, yeah, exactly. He's like, you know, I've always wanted to take a pottery class. If you saw this guy, you would be like, this is, this is not a person that that is going to take a pottery class. The guy is huge, just like muscular. He works out. I've always wanted to take a pottery class, like fantastic, you know, finally, he goes to pottery class in Brentwood. He's the only guy amongst 12 women in the pottery class. He comes back and he says I'm never going again. He goes, I'm the only guy in the thing. I feel so stupid.

1:02:35 I said, tell me how you felt when you put your hands in the clay. I I don't care about the people there. I don't care about the building. I want to just know. Can you please go back to the moment you put your hands in the clay and you started to, you know, the wheel started turning or whatever you were doing and you started working. What did you feel? He goes. You know, I laughed a little bit. Oh, that's interesting. I want to hear about this laugh. Tell me more about that. What did that laugh feel like? And do you ever just laugh for the sake of laughing because it comes from inside of you? Not because, because somebody, you know, told you a joke or not because you made an extra buck, but just you laugh because something ignited inside of you. That's where we find our passion. That is the, that is the, the inner clue that you are, you know, you've, you've, you've reached out and you grabbed something that has some meaning for you. Well, guess what?

1:03:34 He goes back to the class and guess what? There happens to be a Jewish girl in that class who is single and they start seeing each other. So you see it's a he didn't go there to find, you know, necessarily to find the woman. He went there because he wanted to try this thing that he thought he might like. And in doing something that he liked, he suddenly had to me to talk about with someone that liked it too. And there and there goes the neighborhood, you know, there that, and that's how it it happens. And it's a very kind of simple, right? You said that that whole process seems very simple. It's just these three things. And it is, it's not complicated.

1:04:17 It's not some massive career in astrophysics, physics, you know, it's not the next purchase of a corporation. It's it's in these simple things, right? That that you find joy. And if that gives you joy and if you giggle like that, then maybe there's something there. Now, does that mean that he's going to pursue pottery? No, but in talking to that girl, they might find a mutual interest in hiking. And all of a sudden hiking has meaning. And all of a sudden they're smiling together on that hike and they're holding hands and life is different all of a sudden. So a small story, but but one in which you understand. How do you help someone find their passion? I've, I had another young woman came in very low self esteem, very low self esteem, but this very acerbic sense of humor, like the way that she laughed at herself, the way that she, that she poked at herself. I said, you know, you, you, you should try stand up. You should try and like take an improv class. And by the way, we, we recommend in our practice improv classes all the time for low self esteem. It's a great way to build up self esteem, to learn how to do improv.

1:05:27 So she goes and she joins this improv class and ends up joining their comedy troupe. How do you find your passion? You go first step. The hardest step is the first one. But once you take that first step, the path begins to open itself. So it's like a, it's very cliche, but you know the the path is not clear before you take the first step. The path becomes clear when you are on the path. Is Do you remember the book The Found Head by Ayn Rand? Yeah, of course. Absolutely. So there was one particular scene in the book. It's so funny because I don't know anything about the book. I didn't know, you know, I just like stumbled upon at one time, I didn't know that anyone like, felt very strongly about it one way or the other. And I was like talking about it, you know, And I was in college and my friends are like, dude, you know, that book sucks. I'm like, what?

1:06:18 How could that book suck? I just didn't understand that it was even controversial. But there was one. There was the particular instance where the guy that you know, where the, where the, I guess the main sad character, not really hero, not really a villain, the guy that pursues architecture just for the prestige and for the sake of it, but really wanted to be an artist. There's a point where he calls Howard Rourke, who's the main hero into like at a certain point in his like 40s or 50s, he, you know, he achieved everything he wanted to achieve with his career. And he goes to and he buys his shed for his backyard and he disappears into his shed for hours of time at a night. And he doesn't his wife in, he doesn't let his friends in. No one's allowed to see what's inside. And and he invites this other guy, Rourke in and it turns out to be paintings.

1:07:09 And this guy, you know, felt like he had shut off his, you know, his desire for his passions for so long that he wanted to see if it was too late to kind of re engage with it. And, you know, in the way that she and the way that she describes the book was so heartbreaking. It literally it made me cry while I was reading it. And it was really it was an extremely profound moment. But that, you know, he's looking at these pictures that look like and it, you know, like some like inner child had tried to draw on, but like through like, you know, like an adult, like crudely. And he's just like, it was just too late for him to pursue this. I think a lot of people, you know, feel like it's too late in their lives at any point to really do to really try to do anything or try to do anything great. And if they're not going to do it, great, then what's the point?

1:08:02 I, I specifically try to avoid that. I try, I picked up guitar like 3 or 4 years ago just, and I've been, you know, at it since. And I'm always trying to do new things because I always don't feel like it's, you know, I always don't want to feel like it's too late. But what, how do we, how do we, how do we get people out of that, out of that, you know, that space? Because I feel like it's a really real fear. And it really is a very it's it's a tough feeling when you you started something later at life and someone with, you know, and you're comparing yourself to other people and you're insecure about it to begin with. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're not good at it. And you know, what's the point of even doing it almost, you know, how do you do you do you do a lot of people express that sentiment?

1:08:43 OK, we're back. So, you know, that's this point about about not pursuing something because it's not going to be perfect goes to this whole concept of perfectionism, right? Do you stop a child from playing a game because they didn't play it perfectly? Right. Do you stop a child from doing some kind of art because it's not perfect? Of course not. It's not about being perfect. We're not looking to pick up the clarinet to be a, an award-winning clarinet artist, right? That's that, that's a musician. That's not the point. It's like that, the client that put his hands in the clay and giggled. It's, it's about just feeling something.

1:09:24 It's about feeling like, you know, I like this. I, it, it does something. And sometimes it's about being attuned to yourself. I know that people, you know, they get older, they kind of lose touch with what am I feeling right now. But the reality is that you don't need to pursue a, a, a creative endeavor. You don't need to pursue something to be the best at it. We're trained as kids and I think that we do a lot of disservice to kids when we when we try and push them towards being this ideal version of something. Don't get me wrong, we all need our Mozart's, we all need our Beethoven's, right? They, they, those, those kinds of outliers are going to always exist.

1:10:14 But as individuals, we do not need to be to create the best piece of pottery, the best drawing, the best anything. My house is full of artwork. Many of those things were made by dear friends. They are beautiful pieces of art for me. Does that mean that they are award-winning? They should be up in the, in the, you know, the Museum of, of Art. Maybe not, but they have a lot of meaning for me. They're they, they are very rich for me. I, I would be more upset about losing those than losing some piece of art somewhere in a museum that that doesn't have any meaning for me. So what we do for ourselves, that is by itself very important that that in and of itself is enough. We are enough.

1:11:07 And so often we, I think clients flip. They're not enough. We are enough not for not for what we do or what we give, for who we are. We are enough. And when I try and help somebody as I'm kind of ushering them towards trying to class or something. Give up on the perfectionism. No one needs your perfectionism. You don't need your perfectionism. Just be be completely present in the moment and ask yourself, how do I feel right now, in the moment? Am I depressed, Am I anxious? Am I telling myself that I'm garbage, that I'm not worthy? OK, let's talk about that. What's real here?

1:11:51 So I think the answer that question you first asked about how do you find your passion? How do you find your meaning? It's about being attuned to yourself and and understanding. What do you feel? I mean, many people are generally numb or overwhelmed. That's a that's, that's a lot of the feeling out there right now. I mean, I'm sure that you must have that around you as well, right? There's just a lot of numb and overwhelmed. And if there is a moment when you feel something that is not one of those two things, God bless. You found your passion. You found something that has reached in past the the weeds and grabbed your heart and pulled you out. And that by itself is enough.

1:12:41 Yeah, Yeah, I think, I think that that's, and it's beautifully put. I think it's, I think it's right because I think that if it's a passion, then perfectionism doesn't even necessarily. I don't even know, I don't know if that's necessarily true, but I'm sure the people that are perfectionists are passionate about what the perfectionist about. But a passion is totally a passion and. And by the way, there is nothing about there's nothing wrong when you're passionate about something. You are constantly in a, in a state where you are trying to sort of, I'm going to use the word perfect, different from perfectionism, right? To, to, to be, to always better yourself in that frame, right?

1:13:25 So I'm, I'm, if I make a piece of pottery, the first piece might look like, you know, it was made by a person that, that doesn't know what they're doing. And then as I work on it and I work on it and I add hours and hours, it begins to, to have the appearance of something familiar. Is that perfectionism? No, no, that, that, that, that is, that is honing your art. That is honing your skill. That is a normal part of the process. It's a different story than you creating, you know, an initial piece and then slamming it and saying that's garbage, doesn't deserve to even have and see the light of day. But that that comes from perfectionism like that. It should be something that it's not.

1:14:05 I should be something that I'm not, therefore I'm not worthy of even respecting or loving myself. It's, I'm so happy that you just said that because I just had this experience with guitar where for a little while I was, I, I was, I was, I was being tough myself. I wasn't, I wasn't practicing. I wasn't really playing very much because I, you know, I would listen to great, you know, music or I'd hang out with friends that were great musicians and I'd be like, what's the point? And then at a certain point I realized that what was so frustrating for me wasn't that I wasn't as good as them, but that I didn't know how to express myself on it. But then at that point, I that almost snapped me right back into playing and practicing again, because the pursuit didn't become about perfection. It became about my ability to express myself and to become myself.

1:14:59 You know, my search for what my sound is and what my tone is. I know when I write, if I give you come across a poem that I wrote, or you come across, you know, you know, particular, I don't know, pocket, you know, pocket conversation style, you would know that it's me like it's very, very it's very distinct. And and I and I think that that's what people find that that's that's a passion personified is an external or some kind of external creative act that is expressive of who you are. And so I think that you're that it's and then the more that you refine that, then it gets closer to being the most quote, UN quote perfect or the best that it can be, you know, and that's even come great. 100%, absolutely.

1:15:51 And so often, unfortunately, that is stifled in US, you know, as kids, it's stifled. I, you know, I, I grew up, my parents were immigrants. They came to this country. They had, you know, they had no money. They worked, you know, 2 jobs and my mom had two jobs. She was going to school to become a nurse. They did not have money to send me to music school. They did not have money for these extra things. And so I did not grow up playing music. And it wasn't until I was really, I think like 15 or 16 years old. And mom said, oh, you know, I can get you piano lessons. I remember going to play piano with this Russian, a teacher who had taught in Moscow And, you know, he, he had me like, you know, repeat these, these notes over and over again, over and over again.

1:16:33 And then after like, you know, a certain number of lessons, he said to me, you know, you can, you'll play like a monkey, but you'll never, you don't have an ear, you'll never play, you know, be able to just pick up and pick up music. That was the end of it. The minute he said that, it killed it for me. I just, I, I was like, well, what's the point of coming back and, and continuing, right? And it, it just killed it in me and, and so often and, and the crazy thing is that I am as guilty of carrying that forward at as he was for, for, for making that statement. You know, my son started playing the guitar when he was I, I can't remember whether he was 5 or 7, fairly young, maybe a little bit older than that. He, he started taking guitar lessons and he was so small that he couldn't get his hand completely around the guitar. But he played guitar, he practiced guitar. He and, and, and he would play for me. And I, I knew in my mind, I, I was, I had the awareness of, you know, only say positive things, only reinforce like the, the will to continue.

1:17:45 But there was something in my eyes. I knew that it was, I could feel it like there was something in my eyes where I could, it was like that teacher had left a stain inside of me. And it, it and, and you know, a child can see, they can see, they can see into your eyes and they, you can't gaslight them because they can see. And, and I know that it had an effect because over time, he stopped playing for me. He did not stop playing, but he stopped playing in front of me. He stopped practicing in front of me. I went to all of his, you know, the, the, the shows that he did. I went to all his recitals. I was so proud of him, so happy. And it took so long for me to, to eventually come to me and say, I am so sorry because I know that I, that it's, it's in me like I have this thing that I needed to change. But after that it changed everything. Like he, he played and I looked at him differently after that. So it's like so easy to plant that seed inside of us and to kill a passion inside of us.

1:18:49 It's so simple to do that. And as you said earlier, it's so easy to grow something to, to, to plant a seed of growth and to, to reinforce something positive as you do, I'm sure with your students, because you have this awareness of it. So, you know, we, we, we, we should not give up on ourselves because we have some one else's perspective of what perfect is in our minds. Perfect doesn't matter. Our inner joy matters. That's what matters. Yeah. And that's how I mean, so that's actually what I find, what I've found to be so contagious.

1:19:35 I think about the Grateful Dead because I just, I've only gone into the last couple of years and but when I get into any kind of like band or music group or topic, I love to do deep dives and I love to read everything and listen to podcasts and listen to all their lives, you know, as many live shows as you can, you know, because my ears could process, my brain could process. And you know, I'm listening to interviews with Jerry Garcia. And like, the only thing that he ever wanted to do was just do the things that he loved doing and. That was it, you know, and, and he did it and he did it as often as he could, as frequently as he could and became great at it. And people were drawing people not were not only drawn to it, they, they could not remove themselves from them. You know, like, I mean, no one has a, has had a really has close followings like the Grateful Dead, Like what they 25 years after 30 years after he died, it's still, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's grown even more than ever before.

1:20:31 And he's and he's dead, you know, and this, I think that there's this unconscious appreciation and maybe I hope it's conscious, but if people don't realize that, I guess it's subconscious appreciation for someone that just is great for the sake of loving what they do and like. And those people make the best leaders and those people make the best, you know, parents and the best, you know, the best roles of their job is the pursuit of the job for the sake of it, not to be the best of it. Joy is infectious. And when you are experiencing an inner state of joy, you magnetize the world around you. I mean, if you think about that, right, like this sense of that, that sense of joy, you know, the, the, I'm thinking here of like even the Hasidim, when they're like dancing and they're like, they're like in that ecstatic state, right? There's just something that melts. It's just like it melts it melts the room it like it melts it. Melts the room.

1:21:28 It's crazy. It, it absolutely. And, and, and that, that is that inner state of joy, right. So without a doubt, pursuing your passions, connecting with with your community, connecting with people that reflect your value back at you and having a fundamental understanding that you are enough, that you are good that, that, that your relationship with yourself is what matters. Ultimately, it's what matters, because when that relationship fails, the world becomes a very dark place. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, it does.

1:22:09 Well, that's why you have to keep on doing what we do, I guess 100%. So you have to keep on doing what we do. It's I, I hope we can do another recording because there's like 3 or 4 big topics that I didn't even get a chance to get to. I wanted to talk with you about, but including including film and psychedelics and you know, and then actually a little bit more about your back back story. But Mara, I really appreciate the time. This is this is awesome. This is so much fun and this is so enlightening. And the I, I really appreciate how you didn't only introduce topics, but you really gave colorful and really important and valuable stories with, you know, to, to go along and create an actual context in a picture to, to the context or to the concept.

1:22:56 So thank you so much really for the time. This is really, really so amazing. And and I hope to do. I hope to be able to do Part 2 soon. Well, I, I had a great sense of joy doing it with you. So I'm, I'm going to definitely make myself available. I, I, I, I wish you the best and, and absolutely let's reconnect so many more great topics to discuss with you. I'm very excited. And next time you come down to South Florida, if it's any time in the near future, again, please, by all means, I'd love to. I'd love to introduce myself in person, right? I appreciate it. Thank you. Be well, take care. All the best, take care, have a great rest of the week, bye bye.