Psychology Series 9: Todd Shackelford (18+) / Relations/ Jealousy / Sexual Competition

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together,

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Todd Jackelford.
Welcome, Professor Doctor Good

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to all of the above.
It's thank you so much for

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joining.
I'm really excited to have you

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here.
How are you?

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My pleasure.
I'm just fine, thank you.

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My pleasure.
I'm so excited.

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I'm so excited to talk to you
because I love psychology and

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I've recently been super
fascinated with the, with

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learning about evolutionary
psychology and understanding,

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you know how we get where we
are.

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I teach, I teach high school and
I teach 9th, 10th and 12th

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graders and part of and I teach
them English.

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But part of what I find so
important is I try to explain to

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them not only why they
experience what they experience,

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how you know what, what, what
they're experiencing, but why

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they're experiencing it.
You know, so we talk about

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anxiety, we talk about fear, we
talk about sexual repression, we

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talk about all these kind of
things.

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And, you know, on one hand
you're like, yeah, we know

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they're all human.
We know you experiencing a very,

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you know, you know, emotionally
and very strongly and very

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potently.
But why, you know, and where'd

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that come from?
You know, and, and, and, you

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know, and it's fun to observe
and it's fun to, you know, like,

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you know, ask them.
But it's even more fun to talk

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to a professional about it or
someone that's been researching

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it.
So I'm really excited about

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this.
Absolutely.

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Well, it's a it's a great feel,
no doubt about it.

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How did you get, How did you get
involved in it?

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Well, I actually, I don't know
how much you want my background,

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but I actually grew up in
Oklahoma and I wanted to get out

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of Oklahoma.
And so I went to where I got the

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best scholarship.
And as it turns out, that

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happens to have been at the
University of New Mexico in

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Albuquerque.
And I thought, well, that sounds

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interesting.
And so I went there and I didn't

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know it at the time, but I
basically landed in what was

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then and to some extent still
is, one of the hot spots of

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evolutionary science,
evolutionary psychology in

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particular.
And that was back in 19.

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When was that?
That was back in 1989, nineteen

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90.
And so I mean, they had

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outstanding faculty in
evolutionary psychology, in

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biology, in psychology and
anthropology.

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And so I basically took a whole
bunch of courses in all of those

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different disciplines.
You know, you asked me how I

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learned.
I came to it.

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I mean, basically, I learned
about Darwin in, as it turns

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out, in a, in a psychology
honors class, the professor was

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actually strangely, he was a
creationist, which is weird for

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a professor.
But nevertheless, to his credit,

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he had us read, you know, sort
of classic readings in, in

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psychology, one of which he
decided to assign was part of

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Darwin's Origin of Species.
And I had, I honestly had never

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known about, I mean, I probably
heard about Darwin, but it was,

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you know, sort of religiously
blinkered.

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I grew up in a very religious
sort of environment, very

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conservative.
So I learned about it.

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And the truth is, once I read
Darwin, honestly, I mean, I

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could not turn back.
And that's where I talked to

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this guy and I was like, well,
I'd like to learn more about

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this field.
And he said we should talk to

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Stephen Gangastad, who was one
of the faculty in psychology at

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the time.
So I talked to him and then he

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introduced me to Randy Thornhill
in biology.

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And he and Randy introduced me
to a couple of faculty in

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anthropology.
And I mean, I just, once I

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learned about evolutionary
psychology, I just truly, I

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could not turn back.
I mean, I knew that this is what

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I want to do for the rest of my
life.

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Wow, amazing.
What's What's evolutionary

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anthropology?
Well, I mean, basically, I mean,

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the way it was practiced at New
Mexico, it was very much in line

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with evolutionary psychology.
I mean, basically it was the

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application of evolutionary
principles to human, in this

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case with anthropology, to human
behavior as opposed to human

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psychology.
And I mean, for me, it always

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felt a little bit off.
I mean, I appreciated the

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application of evolutionary
principles to human behavior,

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but it always seemed to me that
they were skipping a step,

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namely what happens inside the
mind.

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I mean, behavior doesn't just
drop out of the sky, it's

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motivated and facilitated by the
brain.

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And so I sort of I enjoyed and
appreciated learning about

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evolutionary anthropology, which
mostly included, you know,

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reading and, you know, learning
about non Western peoples,

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hunter gatherers.
And, you know, I loved it.

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I mean, they're, you know, just
as human as every other, you

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know, Westerner, for example.
But it always occurred to me

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that, you know, it always struck
me that, you know, they were

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sort of like I said, skipping,
skipping the psychology step.

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But that didn't stop me from,
you know, loving that field as

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well and enjoying the field.
And, and similarly with biology,

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much of the work that we, that
you know, much of the course

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work that I took, actually, I
took a lot of courses with, with

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Randy Thornhill, who was a
biologist, but applying

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evolutionary principles to
specifically to humans.

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And so I took a course with him
in sexual psychology and

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behavior.
And that's where I learned about

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this theory of sperm
competition, which is, you know,

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widely used and established in
biology.

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But there were some researchers
at the time in the late 80s,

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early 90s, doing work on humans.
And I thought that was so cool.

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I thought it was so interesting.
And just, it kind of blew my

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mind.
And so, you know, I was very,

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very fortunate to have kind of
stumbled into a place where

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multiple departments were
thinking about evolutionary

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application to humans in
particular.

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Yeah, yeah, I noticed that a lot
of the research that he did, it

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seems super, super cool about,
you know, evolutionary processes

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that are, you know, very strict
or I guess very strictly focused

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on on particular human, you
know, behaviors or, or habits

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or, or, you know, actions, I
guess, or, you know,

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relationships, which is really
cool.

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I, I want to, I want to ask you
about the, about the sperm, the

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sperm, I guess race, I guess you
call it.

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But before I do real quick, I
want to just ask about because

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I, I am religious.
You know, I'm, I'm Orthodox

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Jewish and, and you know, I grew
up with, you know, I for the

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first probably 20 years of my
life, I'm almost 30 for the 1st

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20 years of my life, everyone
always told me that religion and

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science, you know, were, would
basically butt heads.

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And then I found out that they
didn't necessarily need to and

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that it was kind of I, I don't,
I don't know how much truth

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necessarily there is to this,
But my understanding was that

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for a long time, religion filled
in a lot of scientific, you

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know, blanks, you know, so we
had like a big board with, you

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know, a lot of questions and,
you know, we'd go to the

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creationist answers for whenever
we didn't have a scientific, you

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know, breakthrough to, to really
explain or describe it.

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And then as science started
developing, scientists started

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to say, hey, we don't need, you
know, to use this creationist

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religious perspective as much.
And I think that religion kind

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of took that as, like,
indication of what, you know, a

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proclamation of war against it.
And so they started responding

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by saying, oh, well, we don't
accept science either, you know,

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and that kind of feels like it's
falling away recently.

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Do you find that?
I guess it depends on who you

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ask.
I mean, I, you know, I am very

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persuaded by Jerry, do you know
Jerry Coyne, biologist Jerry

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Coyne, he wrote, he wrote a
book, wonderful book called Fact

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versus Faith, I think.
And he basically makes the very

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strong argument that religion
and science are utterly and

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entirely incompatible.
And, and I agree with that.

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I think they're entirely
incompatible.

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Yes.
I think there's no place where

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the two can find any kind of any
kind of joining together.

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I'm not suggesting that there
aren't religious people who are

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also scientists.
There certainly are.

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And similarly there are plenty
of scientists who themselves are

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are religious.
But I think they're deluding

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themselves.
You think so?

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Yes.
Can you elaborate?

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I would love to hear what you
think about that.

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Well, there's, well, I guess it
depends on what what part of

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that I just think we're.
How do you think they're

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incompatible?
The way that I, I guess the way

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that I like to think of it is
science helps me appreciate

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God's world as the way that I
think about it.

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It may make it helps me
understand.

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It, but you're presuming there
is a God.

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I am right?
OK, well, we're already.

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On well, we can't, right?
Right.

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Exactly.
And I can't and and and God.

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And God is not scientifically
provable because you can't.

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He's not subject to test or
subject to.

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Our.
Yeah, well, I mean, anything

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that's in a system that, you
know, when there's a bigger

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system can't really make
observation.

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Like soccer players, people in
US metaphor, I guess I hear, is

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like people in like playing a
sport can never understand what

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it's don't understand while
they're playing what it's like

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to be a spectator of the sport.
Because there's something else

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about the grand culminating
experience of following the, you

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know, the team for X amount of
time and investing X amount of

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money in a ticket and fighting
traps to go there.

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And you go there with family or
friends and you buy a beer and

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you buy some snacks and you're
sitting, you're watching the

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people that that you love do the
thing that you know that that do

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do the best at what you love.
And it's A and like what they're

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experiencing is something
totally different than the

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people that are actually playing
the game.

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Right.
The people that are playing the

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game are not, Oh, you don't
know?

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I would imagine.
I mean, I think this sounds like

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a bunch of gobbledygook to me.
It does.

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Forgive me.
No, please.

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Of course, I mean, everyone's
all entitled to, to our

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understanding that, that, that
I, I, I think that bigger,

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there's smaller systems and
bigger systems.

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I don't know the smaller systems
can necessarily understand the

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bigger systems.
But that doesn't imply that

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there's a God.
It doesn't.

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It just implies it is a bigger
system.

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I don't know what the word I I
does.

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I mean, how do you how do you
know that the real God isn't

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Allah or Zeus?
I don't.

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And by the way, I mean we could
fill in any word you want for

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the word God.
Like we could fill in, you know,

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what do you call it?
The simulation, you know, the

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person that codes the simulation
that you could fill in Zeus, you

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could fill in I I don't think
it's Zeus.

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Maybe it is, but it's it could
be most.

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It could be thought it was Zeus.
Much of the world's.

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Just many humans.
At one point in time, all smart

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people knew that Zeus existed.
Yeah, it's true.

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You know what I mean?
It's true.

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So, but I think, I mean, what I
do appreciate is that religion

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provides comfort.
I understand that.

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And it provides what many people
think is an explanation.

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And that's OK.
I mean, I think it's, I, I

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wouldn't want to abolish
religion.

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I think it's, you know, it can
be very helpful for people who,

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you know, who are satisfied with
those sorts of answers.

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Right.
OK, But that sounds good to me.

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I like that, it's a very cool.
Very cool area of evolutionary

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science as well.
There's the cognitive science of

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religion and trying to
understand, you know, the

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production of religious beliefs.
I've been actually talk to

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people about that.
If you could, if you want, if

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you can introduce me to anyone.
I'm really, I'm really

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fascinated to learn about that
kind of stuff, actually.

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Yeah, and I mean, one person in
particular who's who's written a

226
00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,880
couple of books on it.
He's also an evolutionary

227
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:31,720
psychologist.
His name is Jesse Bering.

228
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:38,720
He's, he wrote a book called The
Belief Instinct and he isn't

229
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,640
religious, although there are I,
I actually do know there's a guy

230
00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,600
called Justin Barrett, who is a,
an evangelical Christian who

231
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,280
also is a wonderful cognitive
scientist, you know, So again,

232
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,760
there's no, So what I mean is
that I know that there are

233
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,160
people who are religious and
also scientists, but again, that

234
00:11:58,160 --> 00:11:59,960
doesn't mean they're compatible.
It just means that some people

235
00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:01,440
are really good at
compartmentalizing.

236
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,400
That might be what it is, by the
way, it could very welcomely.

237
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:06,440
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.

238
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:08,960
And I am interested in hearing
exactly, you know, I'm more

239
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,960
interested in hearing what you
think because that's the point

240
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,720
of this conversation.
Great.

241
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,560
So now that we got that or at
least talked about that a little

242
00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:20,560
bit, I want to talk about a lot
of your research that you did

243
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:23,320
because I was looking through it
and I am fascinated by it.

244
00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,880
So do you want to, do we want to
start from I guess the positive

245
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,120
things and kind of work our way
to a little bit of darker topics

246
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,240
that you that you research, You
want to start with the darker

247
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,120
topics and work our way towards
the lighter stuff?

248
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,520
Well, I mean, I sort of, when
people ask me, I, I sort of note

249
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,960
that much of what I do is on the
darker side.

250
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,720
I, I actually, I mean, what
maybe you've found things that

251
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,560
are more positive.
I, I guess I have done work like

252
00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:51,520
on personality traits, but
generally I'm just, I'm much

253
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,680
more interested in, you know,
when things go terribly wrong

254
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,520
and, you know, I'm, I'm very
interested in, you know, when,

255
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:03,880
you know, for example, with
homicide and spousal killing,

256
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,480
child killing, sexual jealousy,
sexual coercion, rape.

257
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,480
These are the topics that I find
most engaging.

258
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,360
And so, yeah, I mean, I'm happy
to to to talk about.

259
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:17,280
Anyone of them?
OK, so.

260
00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:17,720
So.
Yeah.

261
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,680
OK, great.
So, so let's so so I mean, yeah.

262
00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:24,560
So we, I guess most of our work
revolves around sexuality and

263
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:28,480
relationships, I've noticed.
For better, for worse in a, you

264
00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:31,040
know, And so I guess we could
start with, do you want to

265
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,840
explain?
Maybe I know that sexuality

266
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:35,600
drives everyone.
And actually maybe I'll ask you

267
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,320
this question.
I've heard a quote, I don't

268
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,920
remember who said it, but that
everything in life is about sex

269
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:42,320
except for sex, which is about
power.

270
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,480
Do you find that to be the case
in your research?

271
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,160
No, I mean, I think that sex
isn't about power.

272
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,840
It has nothing to do with power
or very little to do with power.

273
00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,840
That's a classic sort of, you
know, yeah.

274
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,920
I mean, I mean, you know, you
hear these sorts of phrases

275
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,840
like, you know, sexual portion
of rape is not about sex.

276
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,800
It's really about power.
I think there's there's

277
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,800
certainly no evidence for that.
You know, that's, I mean it.

278
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,120
Sex is about sex.
I mean, men, when men rape

279
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,520
women, they don't, you know,
they take very great pains to

280
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,800
almost always, you know, to
insert their penis into the,

281
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,560
into the vagina and then
ejaculate.

282
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,080
I mean, if it was about power,
why not just bash her over the

283
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:36,680
head and be done with it, right?
So sex is very important in life

284
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,600
and it's certainly very, it's a
very important, you know, point

285
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,880
of conflict between men and
women in particular.

286
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:44,840
Now, much of the work that that
we've done has been on

287
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,760
heterosexual sex.
We've done a little work on

288
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,160
homosexual sex, much more on
heterosexual sex.

289
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,240
I mean, one could argue that
reflects, you know, the

290
00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,240
proportional representation in
the population.

291
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,200
But we also find that, of
course, sex generates a lot of

292
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,560
conflict.
Certainly there's, you know,

293
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:04,920
requires a certain degree of
cooperation.

294
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,040
But much of what we've looked at
with regard to sex is, you know,

295
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:14,840
admittedly focused on male
psychological machinery of mind

296
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,600
that motivates sexual interest
and the pursuit of sex.

297
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,920
Much of that work has focused on
long term relationships.

298
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,320
So men and women who are in
existing relationships.

299
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,640
And you know, some of the more
recent work we've done has

300
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:32,240
looked at, for example, has a
has investigated various

301
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,880
features of what I mentioned
earlier is called sperm

302
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,480
competition theory.
And there's a huge amount of

303
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,400
work, for example, in birds and
other species, documenting that

304
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,400
where there's a greater risk of
so-called sperm competition,

305
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:49,360
that is where a male in a
relationship, where it may occur

306
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,800
that his partner has sex with
another man or another male,

307
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,440
there appears to be evolved
machinery of mind and evolved

308
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,920
machinery of Physiology that for
lack of the better way of

309
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:02,920
putting it, corrects for that
risk.

310
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,040
In other words, response to that
risk.

311
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,280
So what we find is that where
there's where men and women

312
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,200
spend a greater percentage of
their time apart from their

313
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:10,840
partners since they last had
sex.

314
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,520
This is in humans.
Men report that their partners

315
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,360
are more sexually attractive,
more physically attractive.

316
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,360
They report a greater urgency to
have sex.

317
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,600
And then when they do have sex,
they report more frequent

318
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,480
thrusting, copulatory thrusting,
and also deeper thrusting.

319
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,880
And it's not just men that
report this, it's their partners

320
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,160
that report this as well, right?
So it's not self reporting.

321
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,800
It's also almost objective.
It's it's it's both ends of the

322
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,320
spectrum.
Sure, and so it helps when you

323
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,080
have both partners reports and
they match.

324
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,240
Yeah.
Now, perhaps one could argue

325
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,040
that, well, they're both, you
know, they're both self

326
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,360
reportedly confused.
Well, that may be the case, but

327
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,200
they happen to be really In Sync
with whatever they're confused

328
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,160
about.
But we've also gone, we've also

329
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,840
extended this research in we
have a fully functioning semen

330
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,480
analysis lab.
So we actually collect

331
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,520
ejaculates from couples.
So they have sex.

332
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,079
They, I mean, it's a pretty
regimented process that's all

333
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,800
fully approved.
Actually, we follow a lot of the

334
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:11,240
medical procedures and they have
sex, they bring in the condom.

335
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,400
Then we can do in a, as long as
we get it within about an hour

336
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,280
of ejaculation, we can get 17
clinical parameters in about 75

337
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,359
seconds.
And so we can assess things like

338
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:25,760
sperm number, sperm swimming
speed, the track of the swim, we

339
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,040
can see if it's relatively
straight or more curvy.

340
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,480
And so there we've, we've
provided, we've found some

341
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,160
evidence, we have a small sample
size right now only about 35

342
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,280
couples have done this.
But nevertheless, there's some

343
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,080
indication that males, men,
human males adjust their

344
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,720
ejaculates as a function of the
risk of sperm competition.

345
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,480
So they, they produce faster.
Yeah, they produce faster

346
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,800
swimming sperm when there's a
greater risk of sperm

347
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,600
competition.
And sperm and so and and, and

348
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,560
just to clarify, risk of sperm
competition just means time

349
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,400
spent away from your partner
essentially, right?

350
00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:00,400
Well, we've actually assessed it
in multiple different ways.

351
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,640
One is percentage of time spent
apart from partners since they

352
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,560
last had sex.
That's In other words, that's

353
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,440
time that he can't account for
what she's doing.

354
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,480
We've also looked at number of
male friends the the woman has

355
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:17,000
and time spent with male
friends, male colleagues or.

356
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,480
All this has an impact on on the
sperms, on the sperms, you know,

357
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,640
speed travelling, everything.
And number, yeah, the number of.

358
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:29,080
It goes up or down.
It's.

359
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,520
Amazing.
Increases, Yeah, Increases

360
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,440
speed.
Speed is faster.

361
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,600
The number of sperm is greater,
which is what you would expect

362
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,360
if males are registering greater
competition.

363
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:42,960
In other words, greater risk
that another male has

364
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,200
inseminated their partner
announced to them and therefore

365
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,520
in order to compete more
effectively, they increase the

366
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:55,320
number quality swimming speed of
the sperm that they inseminate.

367
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:57,920
It's really amazing.
Now.

368
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,600
This is, yeah, See, this is what
I've just told you has been

369
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:06,520
known in birds and bats and fish
and all sorts of species for

370
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,640
decades.
But then it was the application

371
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,520
to humans that I found, you
know, particularly intriguing.

372
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,080
Yeah, because it almost links
our intentionality and

373
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,920
consciousness to our, to
something that that we would,

374
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:22,800
that we would argue is totally
separate from us.

375
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,880
You know, like, what would that
have to do?

376
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,080
Especially once it even leaves,
you know, like once, once the

377
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,480
sperm leaves our body, Like
what?

378
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,720
You know, it almost feels like
it's got like it's an intention

379
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,320
of its own to like, do its own
thing.

380
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:34,960
It's crazy.
Wow.

381
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,480
And that's, that's really why I
ended up getting into this

382
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,560
research because I just could
not believe it that this kind of

383
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,640
thing could be happening.
It just feels so strange.

384
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,280
And but on the other hand, you
know, looking back at 2020

385
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,920
hindsight, we really shouldn't
expect that humans are somehow,

386
00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:57,920
you know, unique in that sense.
You know, there's no reason to

387
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,400
suppose that we wouldn't also
have been subject to the very

388
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,160
same processes of natural and
sexual selection.

389
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,280
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, yeah, it's really, yeah.

390
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,480
And I guess, and I guess you can
by by observing that in other

391
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:16,240
animals like birds or whatever
you can are you of the mind that

392
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,320
other animals are quote UN quote
conscious the same that the same

393
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,040
way that we are.
No, no, I don't think so.

394
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:25,240
I don't think that.
We don't have like that same

395
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,520
level of like competition or
jealousy or whatever you want to

396
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,440
call it that would like
encourage, you know, the, the,

397
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,160
the sperms travel or, you know,
to travel differently.

398
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,760
It almost feels like it would be
amplified with people relative

399
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,560
to like a bird or another
animal, right?

400
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,560
Yeah, I mean, it could be.
I mean when you when you said

401
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,280
conscious, we should probably,
you know, define what you mean.

402
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:47,920
I mean I'm thinking of like self
aware.

403
00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:51,640
I mean, I do think that animals,
non humans, they're most non

404
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:52,920
humans.
Anything with a brain

405
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:58,120
experiences pain, for example,
you know, and there's, I have no

406
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:02,280
doubt that birds experience
something like what we call

407
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,520
sexual jealousy.
And the reason I think that is

408
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,080
because they behave precisely as
human males behave or very

409
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,600
similarly so when a male bird.
And there's actually work in

410
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,280
birds looking at what they
offhandedly referred to as

411
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,080
domestic violence.
I mean, when males observe their

412
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,000
partners having sex with another
male, males look like they're

413
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,000
sexually jealous.
They look like they're mad.

414
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,480
They chase their partner down.
They Peck at her.

415
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,080
They immediately, wow, force the
copulation.

416
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,960
Yeah.
And I mean, do we know that

417
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,080
they're sexually jealous?
No.

418
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,560
I mean, because we don't have
any way of accessing what

419
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,520
they're actually feeling.
But all the behaviors, Sure.

420
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,520
Looks like it, yeah.
Yeah, the so-called make

421
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,240
guarding behaviors and you know,
sort of sexually jealous

422
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,280
behaviors.
So they're conscious in the

423
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,520
sense that they're perceiving
their partner, you know,

424
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,320
involved with another male and
appear not to be pleased with

425
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,200
that and then behave
accordingly.

426
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,360
I don't know what they're
actually feeling.

427
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:00,880
I mean, we know that animals
feel pain because we can see how

428
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,080
they respond with with stimuli
that we find painful.

429
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,400
But to the extent that they're
self aware, I mean, I don't, you

430
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,120
know, I'm not sure about that.
Yeah, yeah, me neither.

431
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:12,200
I'm curious about I'm I'm really
curious about that stuff.

432
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,240
I really am.
I'm do from your eyes.

433
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:25,080
Do you do you see the psychology
of sex to be for the sake of

434
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,960
procreation or or something more
than that?

435
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:30,760
Because I know that obviously
biologically pretty deep, you

436
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,880
know, it's pretty deeply
ingrained to want to procreate.

437
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,800
But I'm thinking about
situations like this where

438
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,600
people become start acting
territorial and it becomes more

439
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,520
about quote, UN quote territory
and relationships rather than

440
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,880
just procreation and how that
have an impact on our psychology

441
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:54,000
and therefore our behavior.
Yeah, I think most sex and most

442
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,920
things we look at with regard to
sexual psychology and behavior.

443
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:58,960
Are you still there, Edra?
Yeah, I'm here.

444
00:22:58,960 --> 00:22:59,760
I'm here.
Yeah, OK.

445
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:06,520
I would say most most of our
psychology is not motivating

446
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:11,080
behavior in order to procreate.
I think procreation most of the

447
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,920
time is a by product of our
sexual psychology, which

448
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,240
motivates us to pursue sex
because it feels good, because

449
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,960
we want it.
I don't think that there's any

450
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,280
reason to expect that that
humans any more than birds are

451
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,640
frequently are you know more are
most of the time are thinking

452
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,840
about making babies.
I think making babies is a is a

453
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,680
consequence of that psychology
and of course making babies is

454
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,320
the natural, excuse me, is the
is the consequence over our

455
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,520
evolutionary history that built
the psychology.

456
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,680
But if you ask people, you know
why they have sex.

457
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:51,280
In fact, people have done this.
Very rarely will, they say, in

458
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,640
order to make a baby.
Right.

459
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:59,480
Very rarely they will, but
that's over the course of, of

460
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,920
millions of years of evolution
and that you know, that, that

461
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,080
the entire society has changed.
But I mean, if, if you know, one

462
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,760
of every two or three of your
kids were dying, you know, in

463
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,080
the, in the, in the, in the, in
the desert of the forest

464
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,680
somewhere, then you really
needed to be able to, you know,

465
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,840
pass your jeans on and, and, and
in as many ways as possible.

466
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,840
Well, no, absolutely.
I mean, the, the, you know, the

467
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,040
production of offspring is of
course what's selected for the

468
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,480
machinery of mind that motivates
our interest and pursuit of sex.

469
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:35,600
But sex itself is pursued
because it feels good, because

470
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,960
we want it, because we want to
be closer to our partner.

471
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,160
I mean, very occasionally in
humans, of course, people will

472
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,600
explicitly say, and sometimes
more frequently people will say,

473
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,480
I want to make a baby.
But it's not necessary that

474
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,080
there's a that people are
conscious of the evolutionary

475
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,720
logic that built their
psychology any more than we

476
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,840
expect birds ever think about
making a baby.

477
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:56,760
I don't think birds do think
about making a baby.

478
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,440
Birds have sex because you know,
they can or because it feels

479
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:02,720
good.
I mean, we don't you know, know

480
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,800
exactly why, but.
Right, Yeah, right.

481
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:11,640
I would imagine just just from
speculation, just, you know, if

482
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,880
I, if I were to speculate and
you were to lay out this

483
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,160
information to me, I, I feel
like one, one of the things that

484
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,400
I would conclude would be that
procreation is important.

485
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:21,960
Passing on your genes is
important.

486
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:28,000
Therefore, we, you know, we
would evolve or develop in a way

487
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:33,440
that it, that, that act would be
as pleased, as pleasant and

488
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,680
enjoyable as possible as to
encourage that behavior.

489
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,520
And then we've kind of got
caught up in the weeds of how it

490
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,840
feels rather than understanding
the root of why we're of the

491
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,080
root of why it is that we're
doing it.

492
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,200
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
It's just a speculation just

493
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,360
from what we're talking about.
Yeah.

494
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,280
I mean, I guess I would say that
procreation doesn't have to be

495
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,080
important in order for those
mechanisms to have been built by

496
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,080
natural selection.
Important in the sense that

497
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,160
people care about it, People
care about it.

498
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,920
The desire to have children
isn't necessary in order to have

499
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,880
children.
You, you have to have sex to

500
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,120
have children.
And So what you expect natural

501
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:26,240
selection to do is to build
machinery of mind that motivates

502
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,080
a, you know, a consistent and
persistent pursuit of sex, not a

503
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,480
consistent and persistent
pursuit of having babies.

504
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,200
That's not necessary.
It's having sex.

505
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,960
I mean, I'm not denying that.
I mean, there are plenty of, you

506
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,640
know, people want to have
babies, they report they want to

507
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,480
have babies, but even people
that report they don't want to

508
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,920
have children still sometimes
have children.

509
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,040
So at any rate, I, I guess
there's a distinction between,

510
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,480
you know, the process of, of
natural selection and the

511
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,720
product of natural selection.
The process is differential

512
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,720
reproduction over evolutionary
history.

513
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,160
You know, some of our ancestors
or those of our those early

514
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,760
humans that were ancestors more
were more successful at having

515
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:15,560
sex and producing children, but
that that that's what built, you

516
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,920
know, whatever.
Right now the the final product

517
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,200
is that we enjoy it.
Yes, yes.

518
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,440
Which isn't to deny that over
evolutionary time.

519
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,200
Yeah, which isn't to deny that
over over evolutionary time,

520
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,760
that enjoyment led to babies
more often than not.

521
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,240
Right, right, right, right.
But it but we still enjoy sex

522
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,880
without having babies.
Certainly.

523
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,440
I mean, I mean, we know, we know
that all over the world people

524
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,720
are right because the amount of
people, you know, population

525
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,800
keeps dropping.
What do you think about that?

526
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,400
Right?
The.

527
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,480
Population.
Are dropping, Yeah, yeah, I

528
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,720
mean, I guess it I mean it's
still increasing in in many

529
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,920
parts of the world, sub-Saharan
Africa, for example, you know,

530
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,600
population is exploding.
Other parts of the world like

531
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,160
Northern Europe, for example, I
mean, you have a population

532
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,040
decrease Japan.
Korea, China overall.

533
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,040
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Yeah, it's decreasing.

534
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,080
And many people do wring their
hands about it because in

535
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,000
particular, you know, if you
look at, you know, national

536
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,600
level, you know, intelligence,
for example, people fret about,

537
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,760
you know, the, you know, the
people who are the least

538
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,120
intelligent or the least well
off or the least capable are the

539
00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:34,000
ones having most babies.
And people do fret about this.

540
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,800
But I guess I really don't
because, I mean, humans will go

541
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,840
extinct like every other species
went extinct.

542
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,560
But we're not going to be around
forever.

543
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,840
You know, if you play out the,
you know, the, you know, the

544
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,840
astronomy, I mean, the Earth
will go careening into the sun

545
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,720
in about 5 billion years.
And none of this will make a

546
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,360
difference anyways.
Right, right, right, right,

547
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,400
right.
Unless we find a way, I really

548
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:56,520
don't.
Travel.

549
00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,960
I guess.
Yeah, perhaps.

550
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:01,920
And I'll be long dead before
that.

551
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,240
Yeah, exactly.
It's a, it's a lot, it's a lot

552
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,320
of speculation, I imagine.
Can you talk about the, the

553
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,360
marriage research that you did,
some of the marriage research

554
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,320
that you did, especially over
the course of time and you want

555
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,000
to you want to explain just some
of the studies that you, the

556
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,400
research that you've done and
what you've, what you've

557
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,320
noticed.
Sure.

558
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,760
So some of the earlier work I
did, and really I've continued

559
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,200
doing it, is with married
couples in part.

560
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,760
I mean, there's nothing magical
about being married.

561
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,200
I mean, it just it, it, it, it's
a level of commitment that sort

562
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,920
of standardizes, you know, who's
involved in the research.

563
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,280
And so we had a, a sample of
married couples we followed over

564
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,160
the years.
And in one study, my colleague

565
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,240
and I, this is my former
graduate advisor, David Buss, we

566
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:49,880
collected data on married
couples.

567
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,000
And one of the things we looked
at was make guarding behavior.

568
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,080
And this was actually inspired
by research on nonhumans on this

569
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,560
mate guarding behavior that men
and women do to thwart their

570
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,920
partners interest in another,
another partner, for example.

571
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,040
And we found that for example,
men's mate guard.

572
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,480
We we measure both men's mate
guarding and women's mate

573
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,680
guarding, the things they do to
stop their partner from getting

574
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,600
involved with someone else.
And we asked them to self to

575
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,720
self report.
We also asked them to report

576
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,640
their own mate guarding, their
partners mate guarding and then

577
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,840
we had them interviewed by an
independent interviewer, each

578
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,680
member of the couple.
And what we found is that men's

579
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:35,160
mate guarding in these married
couples varied with their

580
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,560
partner's age and physical
attractiveness.

581
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,120
So men who are married to
younger, more physically

582
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,760
attractive women engaged in a
lot more mate retention

583
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,720
according to themselves,
according to their partners and

584
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,280
according to independent
interviewers.

585
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,920
But here's what was interesting
about that is that it wasn't

586
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,080
women's independently assessed
attractiveness, the interviewer

587
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,360
assessments of attractiveness.
It was what men thought their

588
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,160
partners attractiveness was.
So men who thought their

589
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,960
partners were very attractive or
engaged in much more mate

590
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,720
retention behavior.
Now, on the other hand, women

591
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,400
also engage in mate retention
behavior.

592
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,160
There's no doubt about that.
And we found that men's, excuse

593
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,360
me, women's mate retention, that
is attempts to stop their

594
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,000
husband from getting involved
with another woman.

595
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,720
Women's mate retention varied
with their, with their husband's

596
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,040
age also and with their
husband's social status and

597
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,680
career trajectory.
So women who are married to

598
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:32,240
older men and men who were
higher in social status and had

599
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,520
a more positive career
trajectory, their their wives

600
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,480
were investing much more time
and effort in guarding them and

601
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,320
in thwarting other women.
What kind of behavior?

602
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,400
How does that manifest for men
and women?

603
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:45,040
How does that?
How does that?

604
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,080
How?
What does the guardian behavior

605
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,560
manifest as?
Yeah, that's a great question.

606
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,000
So we've had, we assessed it
with it's literally called the

607
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,200
Mate retention inventory.
And it's a, it's an inventory

608
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,600
that we we've used with, in
dozens of studies now across

609
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,120
multiple cultures.
And it assesses this, The longer

610
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,240
version assesses 100, about 100
specific acts that men or women

611
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,680
can do that is with the purpose
of stopping a partner from

612
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:13,800
getting involved with someone
else.

613
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,760
And so this includes things like
direct guarding.

614
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,960
We call it direct guarding.
It's, you know, calling a

615
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,960
partner to see if she's where
she said she was, stopping by a

616
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,080
partner's place of employment to
see if she's.

617
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,520
Yeah, OK Rifling through a
partner's mail or e-mail.

618
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,000
It also includes things like
concealment.

619
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,120
Concealment.
This is refusing to let a

620
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,240
partner go out somewhere to a
party or to spend time with

621
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,720
friends.
These are other things that both

622
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,560
party, both men and women do.
So it can be as obvious as, you

623
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,120
know, tracking a partner and
following them to things like.

624
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,040
There's another type of mate
retention that involves putting

625
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,360
a partner down, you know,
telling them they'll never find

626
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:58,720
anything, anyone better than
you.

627
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,280
Or now a more positive, a more
positive mate retention tactic

628
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,440
is what's called displaying love
and care.

629
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,800
You know, telling a partner that
you love them and, you know,

630
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,400
giving them gifts, taking them
out to a nice event, basically

631
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,320
demonstrating emotional
commitment.

632
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,080
Yeah.
Do do you have you have you been

633
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,880
able to observe or have you ever
wondered whether the positive or

634
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,560
negative retention behaviors was
more was more beneficial?

635
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,200
Like which one was a better
method to keep a partner, you

636
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,360
know faithful?
Yeah, that's a that's an

637
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,600
excellent question.
We that yeah, I mean there's a

638
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,360
lot more work recently on
breaking these up into benefit

639
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,920
provisioning tactics and cost
inflicting tactics, you know,

640
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,000
making things better to keep
them here or inflicting costs,

641
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,840
you know, if they are stray.
I mean, I think generally

642
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:59,280
speaking, the, I mean, well,
what I can say is it, it appears

643
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,480
that most men and women only
resort to the negative stuff if

644
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,920
the positive stuff is either
isn't working or if they don't

645
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,719
have the ability to display the
positive stuff.

646
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,000
So for example, we know that men
without access to resources

647
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,159
cannot invest resources in a
partner.

648
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,719
So it's men who are economically
poorer who are the ones who are

649
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,400
much more likely to use, for
example, physical violence as a

650
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:24,679
means of retaining their
partner.

651
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,600
I mean, it's all they have.
I'm not, I'm not excusing it,

652
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:32,400
but I'm saying men who can't
invest resources don't.

653
00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:35,280
And so they'll use physical
force and they'll use

654
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,480
psychological terrorism.
Yeah, yeah.

655
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,920
The short answer is the positive
stuff works better if they the.

656
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,480
Positive, right, That's good.
That's good.

657
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,040
By the way, I wonder if, and is
there a correlation?

658
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,120
And I guess unless this is just,
you know, based on individual

659
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,120
preferences, whether someone
prefers that more emotional or

660
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,720
physical type of, you know, for
example, right.

661
00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:01,760
Like if I can't afford to take
my wife on a vacation every six

662
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,280
months, you know, which a lot of
people can then cannot rather

663
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,080
then then I might find it more,
I might find it more beneficial

664
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,320
to say, hey, you know, we don't
we can't go on vacations all the

665
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,960
time, but we're going to have,
we're going to go on walks

666
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,280
together to have my phone aside.
We're going to go on walks

667
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,120
together and just it's going to
be me and you time, you know,

668
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,360
aside from the kids, aside from
everything, just me and you.

669
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,400
And we're going to do this once
a week.

670
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,240
Do we?
Do we, do we do?

671
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:29,760
Have you observed that there
would be a difference between,

672
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,760
you know, monetary or physical
as opposed to emotional type of

673
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,480
reinforcement reinforcing
behavior?

674
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,280
That's a great question.
I mean, the short answer is no,

675
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,480
Those can be just as effective.
Those can be incredibly

676
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,800
effective.
I mean, displays of love and

677
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:51,400
care are not mutually exclusive
to or don't necessarily go with

678
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:57,000
displays of economic resources.
For some men or women, display

679
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,800
of economic resources is very
effective because of course they

680
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,240
have those economic resources.
But if they don't, there are

681
00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:05,440
other ways to invest that don't
involve, you know, the negative

682
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,280
or cost inflicting sorts of
behaviors like investing time,

683
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,200
effort, investing intimate
feelings in the sense of sharing

684
00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:16,560
with a partner and spending time
with a partner.

685
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,200
I mean, these can be and are and
are, generally speaking,

686
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,960
incredibly valuable and are
perceived as a signal of

687
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,000
commitment, a partner's interest
in spending time and, you know,

688
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,320
writing poems and, you know,
giving small gifts that are

689
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,960
really, you know, the kinds of
gifts that we say, well, it

690
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,800
comes from the heart.
Yeah, and that all works out.

691
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,480
Have you and and as and as time
goes on.

692
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,040
So this you, you, you, you, you
have emphasized that this is

693
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,880
particularly when we're younger,
people are younger and people

694
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,480
are, you know, younger, I guess
how they perceived

695
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,120
attractiveness.
And I guess it's almost like

696
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,400
social currency, how much
competition they would be in

697
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,800
your people would be interested
in your partner.

698
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:05,920
As time goes on, what changes?
What we have followed up are

699
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,280
married couples.
We actually assessed them first

700
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,200
in their newlywed year and then
we we followed up with them

701
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,240
three years later to see how
things were going.

702
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:18,160
And unfortunately, non trivial
portion of them had already

703
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,960
divorced or had separated.
But we ended up, you know,

704
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,560
basically reconnecting with
about half of the couple of the

705
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,640
couples.
And for those that were still

706
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,400
involved, First of all, the main
one of the main findings is that

707
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,200
for both men and women, mate
retention generally decreases

708
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,720
over time, much less so for
women than for men, which in

709
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:43,640
some sense isn't particularly
surprising because we know that,

710
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:48,320
you know, make value, the
so-called, you know,

711
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,800
attractiveness as a mate on the
quote mating market decreases

712
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,120
generally speaking, decreases
more for women than for men,

713
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,720
given that women's mate value is
more tied up in their physical

714
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:03,080
attractiveness and in their
youth.

715
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,640
On the other hand, men can be a
much riskier investment.

716
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,480
I mean, men's mate retention can
increase dramatically.

717
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,760
Excuse me.
Men's mate value, so-called mate

718
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,320
value can increase dramatically
over time as they achieve, you

719
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,640
know, status and reputation
resources, but can also plummet.

720
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,880
We know that number one reason
that women report divorcing

721
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,600
their husbands is he lost a job.
And that's true in over across

722
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,960
160 cultures.
The number one reason that women

723
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,080
seek divorce from a partner is
lack of financial resources.

724
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,760
And so those men who whose
status doesn't increase as

725
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,360
expected are at risk of their
partner leaving.

726
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,480
But there are men who in fact
their status increases and

727
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,520
unfortunately, that's also a
predictor of divorce.

728
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,840
When men register, perhaps
accurately, that they have, you

729
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,960
know more validity to attract a
younger and.

730
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,280
Attractive.
Partner.

731
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,760
Wow.
So on one hand, the same thing

732
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:06,280
that makes you more desirable to
the woman also makes from the

733
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,880
man's perspective, makes the
woman less desirable to to him.

734
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,800
Wow.
So what's the how do you, how do

735
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,920
you resolve that conflict?
Yeah, it's ridiculous.

736
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:23,240
That sounds crazy.
Well, I mean, couples do stay

737
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:27,520
married couples navigate, you
know, you know, these sorts of

738
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:32,800
issues.
Often times women will become

739
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,560
more interested, for example,
in, you know, role-playing in

740
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:41,800
sex, you know, in, you know,
wearing particular outfits that

741
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,720
their husband, you know, wants
them to wear.

742
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:46,920
I mean, they'll, they'll be a
little more open to sexual

743
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,800
adventuresome, you know, you
know, activities and, and, you

744
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,320
know, on the other hand, I mean,
I don't mean to suggest that

745
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:57,880
relationships never last.
Of course they do.

746
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,440
I mean, most don't, at least in
the Western world, most end in

747
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,280
divorce, about 60% of them.
But that means that 40% remain

748
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,120
married.
I mean, also couples become more

749
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,200
tolerant of their spouses
infidelities.

750
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,440
I mean, women become, by their
own reports, much more tolerant

751
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,440
of their spouses infidelities as
they age.

752
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,520
Really.
Men don't seem to.

753
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:22,480
Oh, yeah, Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, for sure.

754
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:24,880
I think in part they're
registering that they don't have

755
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,200
to put up with this when they're
younger, but as they age, they

756
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,000
have less leverage.
That's not to suggest that all

757
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,520
women are more tolerant as they
age, but that's a general

758
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:36,840
finding, you know?
Yeah.

759
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,280
So that's another way that the
conflict has been resolved or

760
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,360
can be resolved.
Yeah.

761
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,920
But OK.
But it is, I mean, there's no

762
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,560
doubt about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

763
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,280
I it's so interesting.
All this is all this is so

764
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,280
interesting.
When you, when you're doing this

765
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,560
research, how do you go about
it?

766
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:00,720
What's the?
What's the process from your

767
00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:06,480
end?
Well, with the couples we

768
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,160
actually, we begin by, I mean,
we've done it in a variety of

769
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,840
ways.
In fact, in that study, we

770
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:17,080
actually advertised in a local
newspaper for interest in this

771
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,600
was many years ago when that was
much more common, you know, to

772
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,680
advertise in a paper, but you
can also advertise online for,

773
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,320
you know, you're looking for
newlywed couples to participate

774
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,840
in research and you know, you
stay typically if you can pay

775
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,080
them or not.
So some of the work that we've

776
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,600
done in our lab recently where
we had the couples, we've

777
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,640
tracked them, they came into the
lab 7 * / a period of several

778
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,400
months and we actually paid them
at the end of their, their

779
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,880
participation, we were able to
pay them about $200.

780
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,200
Now that's not a whole lot of
money.

781
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,080
Mostly you get couples who are
very interested in research and

782
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,040
you know, there are lots of
biases that you accidentally

783
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,240
build into it.
I mean, generally you're, you're

784
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,200
bringing in couples who are, you
know, are generally a little

785
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,040
more intelligent, they're more
interested in relationships.

786
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,000
They're probably have a better
relationship than the couples

787
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,240
that don't participate.
So you always have to be, you

788
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:09,160
know, you know, you always have
to respect, you know, the, the

789
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,800
possibility that you, that
you've introduced by us, but you

790
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,680
simply, you know, you can put
out a, a broad net and then you

791
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,640
have them call the lab and
indicate their interests.

792
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,320
And then typically we'll talk to
them and, you know, and make

793
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:23,880
sure they meet all the various
criteria.

794
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:25,800
And then we'll bring them into
the lab.

795
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,680
And then typically we'll
separate them, put one, put the

796
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,880
husband in one room and the wife
in another room, have them

797
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,400
complete some intake inventories
like personality and conflict

798
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,360
and relationship.
And then we'll bring them back

799
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,600
together and we'll schedule a
follow up appointment.

800
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,080
So it's, I mean, I'm fortunate
to have, you know, many really

801
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,320
excellent graduate students and
undergraduate students who do a

802
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,240
lot of the interviews and the
intakes and in fact do a lot of

803
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:53,040
the calling and scheduling.
But it's, you know, it's,

804
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,360
there's really no glamour.
It's just a lot of, you know,

805
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,040
just sort of persistence and
hard work and bringing couples

806
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,760
back in and scheduling them.
And so that's what we do.

807
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,800
I mean, would that work that
just involves, you know, having

808
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,120
them complete various surveys
about themselves and about their

809
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:11,760
partner and then we interview
them.

810
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:14,640
You know, we have trained
research assistants that

811
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,800
interview the couples.
Can I?

812
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,320
How often do the self surveys
and the interviews end up being

813
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,360
contradictory to one another?
I feel like that would happen

814
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,840
pretty often because the way
that you'd want to express

815
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,000
yourself on a piece of paper
might turn out differently in

816
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,200
the way you're talking to
someone when you're talking face

817
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:35,560
to face.
Well, I mean, especially if

818
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,720
you're not careful, it can be
terribly conflicting.

819
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,400
But we know, for example, that
there are, there are certain

820
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,440
areas that we have to be
exceptionally careful at how we

821
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,880
ask the questions and we have to
give them, the participants

822
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,920
every reassurance that there's
no way their partner is going to

823
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,520
find out what they said.
For example, we never have

824
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,360
participants put their name on
anything.

825
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,520
They only have a code.
They know their code and we know

826
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:06,840
their code, but but basically
nobody else could possibly know

827
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,000
that their responses were their
responses.

828
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,760
So we have to do that.
We also have them complete their

829
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,960
their surveys and then put them
in an envelope, a nondescript

830
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,120
envelope.
That envelope is in place in a

831
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,240
box with other nondescript
sealed envelopes.

832
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,280
Amazing.
You know, typically they'll mix

833
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:28,080
them in and that's fine.
We assure them that we will not

834
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,520
be able to determine who gave
which response.

835
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,760
I mean, ultimately we have a
separate coding sheet that that

836
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,880
assigns each individual person
to a particular code.

837
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,240
And that's only in one location.
So as a matter of fact, people

838
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:43,520
looking at the data don't know
who is who.

839
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,440
You have to have access to the
specific code.

840
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,560
And that's actually kept in a
locked office on a password

841
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,840
protected computer.
So we have to do all these

842
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,680
things so that people will be
more likely to be honest.

843
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,120
And we, you know, look, there's
no doubt that some people lie.

844
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,160
Some people won't say they were
unfaithful when they were

845
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,240
unfaithful, and we understand
that.

846
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,680
And, you know, we can only do
everything we can possibly do to

847
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,200
encourage them to be honest.
But our results generally line

848
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,240
up with the results of of lots
of other research on infidelity

849
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:15,920
and conflict.
We're not finding anything

850
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:20,640
peculiar.
You know, You know, much of the

851
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:25,520
work indicates that about 30% of
men and about 25% of women are

852
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,160
unfaithful to their spouse at
some point in the relationship.

853
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,160
And that's basically what we
find about one in three men and

854
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,120
about one in four women.
How do you, sorry, what's the,

855
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,360
how do you determine or how do
you determine unfaithfulness?

856
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:44,560
Is that physical contact?
Is that emotional, you know, is

857
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,760
that a date with another woman?
And well, how do you, how do you

858
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:51,160
determine that?
Great question.

859
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,720
Well, we actually ask it in
several different ways, in a

860
00:45:56,720 --> 00:46:01,080
variety of different ways from a
continuum from, you know, in

861
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,960
terms of physical contact.
It's, you know, we ask about

862
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,040
kissing, we ask about holding
hands all the way up to, you

863
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,000
know, actually having sex, but
including everything in between.

864
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,760
So we actually break it down
into specific behaviors.

865
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,440
Similarly, we separate out
questions dealing with emotional

866
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,080
infidelity.
And so we ask about, you know,

867
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,040
you know, time spent with
another person.

868
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,600
We ask about feeling in love
with another person.

869
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,760
We ask about did you share
secrets of that person?

870
00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:34,160
Did you spend money on that
person?

871
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,920
And so we separate out as a
broad, as a broad brush stroke,

872
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,880
we actually separate sexual
infidelity from emotional

873
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,600
infidelity.
In fact, there's a lot of work

874
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,440
on sexual and emotional
infidelity and on sex

875
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:52,000
differences in responses to
sexual and emotional infidelity

876
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,200
with with women in every culture
for which we've collected these

877
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,240
data.
Women are far more upset by a

878
00:46:57,240 --> 00:47:00,480
partner's emotional infidelity
than by a partner's sexual

879
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,400
infidelity.
The reverse is true for men.

880
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,520
Men are far more upset by a
partner's sexual infidelity than

881
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:06,960
by a partner's emotional
infidelity.

882
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,000
Fascinating.
So fascinating.

883
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,080
So, you know, it's so funny
'cause I earlier, maybe about a

884
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,800
year ago, I was actually almost
exactly a year ago, I was in

885
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,600
between houses and I got an air,
my wife and I got an Airbnb in

886
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,680
Orlando for, you know, a month
and it was a lot of fun.

887
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,760
And you know, you took our, you
took our kids to Disney a couple

888
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:27,320
of times in the water parks.
It is cute.

889
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,920
And one time I was out by myself
in Downtown Disney listening to

890
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,960
some live Irish music, which I
love, and watching some

891
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,080
basketball.
And I was sitting at the bar and

892
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,960
there's a woman that was 2 that
was two seats over for me.

893
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,200
There's a scene in between US
and she was getting up to use

894
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,000
the restroom.
And I pulled out the chair for

895
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,360
her just to let her just to just
help her out, just to get out.

896
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,600
And she started talking, you
know, and we started talking.

897
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:59,880
And I had not, you know,
engaged, you know, with another

898
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:04,120
woman, you know, one-on-one at a
bar scene like that since I've

899
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,520
gotten married.
And the only thing that came

900
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,520
across my mind was just sheer
panic.

901
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,040
Just, you know, I'm playing at
my wedding ring the whole time.

902
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,000
And I'm like, how do I give
every indication that like, you

903
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,120
know, I'm not, I'm not sure.
I'm not, I'm not trying to do

904
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,120
anything like this.
But you know, I, I'm sure

905
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,480
there's a good amount of
emotional self, you know,

906
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,680
emotional self regulating or
self censoring that comes from

907
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,200
that comes from both ends, I
imagine, right.

908
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,320
Absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, one of the things that

909
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,680
both members of both men and
women do is they they simply

910
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:44,160
avoid any possible, you know,
situation where they might find,

911
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,520
you know, themselves talking to
someone else.

912
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,480
I mean, in fact, one of the one
of the more interesting and

913
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:55,160
memorable findings in in a lot
of this work is that the best

914
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,960
predictor of women's infidelity,
either sexual or emotional, is

915
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,600
their, their relationship
satisfaction, how satisfied they

916
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,040
are with their current
relationship.

917
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,040
So women who are less satisfied
are far more likely to be

918
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,760
ungrateful.
On the other hand, for men, the

919
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,400
the best predictor of men's
infidelity is opportunity.

920
00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:16,160
No way.
And so really, yeah, just if

921
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,680
they have the opportunity.
And that's why what you find is

922
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:23,760
many men, many married men,
explicitly avoiding situations

923
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,360
where they might have the
opportunity.

924
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,760
They sort of, you know, stop it
before it starts.

925
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,880
Yeah, yeah.
I don't even, I, I don't even

926
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:38,120
know what, I don't even know how
it responds, if it even got more

927
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,600
than like that emotion that, you
know, that first initial

928
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,640
conversation.
But I, I'm assuming I would just

929
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,080
probably just shut down out of
guilt.

930
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,880
I, I don't know.
But I, I guess that could lead

931
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,280
us to another conversation which
I was actually really interested

932
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:55,880
about the rape and murder study
that you did.

933
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,720
And I guess you kind of already
kind of provided an answer to me

934
00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:03,240
because I was going to, I was
when I was reading, when I was

935
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,720
doing the research and I was
just thinking while I was

936
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:10,120
reading, I would have imagined
that people would be less

937
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:17,280
inclined to murder after a rape
if your behavior is driven by

938
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,840
the need to procreate, you know,
and I guess we already covered

939
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,640
that.
That's not what necessarily

940
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,680
drives your behavior, you know,
so it's not necessary.

941
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,600
So, so, So what was?
So can you tell me a little bit

942
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:27,680
about that research that you're
doing?

943
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,400
Because I mean, it seems like we
already got some, you know, you

944
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,760
answered that, that aspect of my
curiosity about that, about the

945
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,120
topic, but you want to just
maybe dive into a little bit.

946
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:40,040
Sure.
Yeah.

947
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,160
So, well, we know that.
I mean, there there's of course,

948
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,200
a lot of work, a lot of
unfortunately, it's

949
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,360
controversial because people, I
think, I think it's loaded up

950
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,920
with lots of misunderstandings.
But if you look at who is most

951
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,000
likely to be the victim of rape,
it's young women.

952
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,000
It's young single women in
particular.

953
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,600
Now, one could argue, well,
that's because men are trying to

954
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,680
inflict, you know, power on
younger women.

955
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,520
But I mean, the exercise of
power will be so much easier,

956
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,520
you know, if you would try to
overpower an older woman.

957
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,960
I mean, why is it, you know, I
don't think it's, it's

958
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,520
incidental that men target
younger women, younger, more

959
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,360
physically attractive women who
are, who also happen to be

960
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,920
single.
They're single.

961
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,640
They're less likely to have male
partners around them.

962
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,520
They're easier to prey,
basically.

963
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:34,480
So what drives, you know, men's
men who are raping, you know, is

964
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:39,760
not is there attraction to
younger women who don't have a

965
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,960
lot of men around them or have
any men around them?

966
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:48,040
And by their reports and by
victims reports, women, younger

967
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,040
women are more at risk.
That's not to suggest that older

968
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:51,920
women are not raped.
Of course they are.

969
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,640
But it's just statistically
speaking, the risk of rape is

970
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,680
much, much, much higher for
younger women.

971
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,200
I mean, if you look at the risk,
you know, risk of rape, it just

972
00:52:00,240 --> 00:52:03,160
plummets after about, you know,
the mid 20s.

973
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,480
And I think that's an indication
of male sexual interest, not

974
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:13,920
male interest in, you know,
inflicting their power.

975
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,760
Because after all, it would be
much easier to overpower a child

976
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,880
or an elderly woman than it is
to overpower a young adult woman

977
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,400
who typically puts up much
greater fight than, you know, a

978
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:30,040
young child or, you know, a much
older woman now.

979
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:31,600
But you asked specifically
about.

980
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:33,640
They're connected with murder,
yeah.

981
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:35,280
It is a very interesting
question.

982
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,200
Occasionally men who rape women
do murder them.

983
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,800
I mean, it's first of all, rape
is relatively rare, stranger

984
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,680
rape.
But let's just so it does occur.

985
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,360
No, of course, no doubt about
it.

986
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:53,240
But rarely, sometimes men then
kill the women that they've just

987
00:52:53,240 --> 00:52:55,440
raped.
And that seems dramatically

988
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,960
opposed to the idea that rape is
about procreation.

989
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:00,120
Well, that's because rape's not
about procreation.

990
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,600
I mean, historically, our
ancestors were those men who did

991
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:09,360
rape when the occasion presented
itself and the the perceived

992
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,240
costs weren't as great as the
perceived benefits.

993
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:17,440
Or I mean, bottom line is our
ancestors were those men who did

994
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:18,720
occasionally rape.
That's the argument.

995
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:25,120
Our ancestors are not those men
who avoided sexual coercion at

996
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,560
all costs, because then they
would have been less successful.

997
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,440
We might say they were morally
better, but that's irrelevant.

998
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,680
I think that men sometimes kill
women that they rape because of

999
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,400
course dead people can't report
them, you know.

1000
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:42,640
Do you think?
They need to clean up your mess.

1001
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,760
Cover it up.
Yes, yes.

1002
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,760
I don't think they're yes, I
mean, by their own reports, men

1003
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,760
who are caught having raped and
then murdered women.

1004
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,040
They report that they killed
them because they didn't want to

1005
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,200
get caught.
Right.

1006
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:00,640
And I guess that goes back to
the cost, the cost benefit that

1007
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:02,320
you they were discussing, you
know that.

1008
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:11,600
Oh, I can't hear you.
We lost the audio Ephraim.

1009
00:54:24,150 --> 00:54:25,790
I'm sorry about that.
You see, that happens again.

1010
00:54:25,790 --> 00:54:28,400
I'm sorry.
Here it is can.

1011
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:29,440
You hear me?
You're back.

1012
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,200
On, you're back on.
Great.

1013
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:33,160
I'm just turning off the camera
now.

1014
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:34,480
Can you hear me?
Yeah, I hear you.

1015
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,280
I'm turning off the camera to
prevent that again.

1016
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:39,720
OK.
Good.

1017
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,320
So we're talking so I guess so I
guess it goes back to the cost

1018
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,200
benefit that you were mentioning
that, you know, for the rape.

1019
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,400
The benefit obviously is what
you is, is you know, the, the

1020
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,000
rape, yes, you know, the, the
sexual act.

1021
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:56,640
And then the cost would be that
you'd have to pay presumably for

1022
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,360
the rest of your life.
If you you know, if if this

1023
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,520
person you know, outs you.
And so you have a better chance

1024
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:06,840
at getting away with it with a
leaving a body behind than you

1025
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,640
do with a living person running
around talking about how they

1026
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:14,720
got raped.
Yes.

1027
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:16,280
I mean, that's the bottom line,
Yes.

1028
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:21,760
And then, well, I should also
say that I mean, of course, for

1029
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,880
most of our evolutionary
history, rapists weren't

1030
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,880
imprisoned.
There weren't prisons, but they

1031
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:31,320
were tracked down by the woman's
husband or the woman's brothers

1032
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,280
or the woman's father.
And it was not uncommon for

1033
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:42,000
rapists or suspected rapists to
be murdered by the close family

1034
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,960
members of the woman.
And so yet yet again, another

1035
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:50,320
reason to I'm not separate issue
from the moral concerns.

1036
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:55,120
Of course, another reason to
kill her, you know, if but So

1037
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,960
what I think is selected for is
male sexual interest in

1038
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:02,640
attractive young women.
Another you know, combine that

1039
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,960
with male evolved psychology to
use aggression and force to take

1040
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:12,480
what one wants, whether that's
sex or a shiny object or money,

1041
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,600
and the end product is or can be
rape.

1042
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:19,680
Right, right.
Right.

1043
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,600
Right, man.
Yeah.

1044
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,040
And I mean, and that was the way
that people use, I mean, when

1045
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,320
you hear the term pillage and
plunder, I mean, that's what

1046
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,600
you'd do in times of war.
And when you would, when you'd

1047
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,040
conquer, you'd conquest or come
to a new town, you'd kill the

1048
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:34,360
men and take all the women, you
know.

1049
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,640
And that was, I'm assuming that
not all these relationships were

1050
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:41,200
consensual, you know, not even
close.

1051
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:43,000
Oh, right.
So I guess it's a.

1052
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,360
So would you call that a learned
evolutionary behavior?

1053
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:55,400
Well, I mean, I don't think so
in the sense that I mean we know

1054
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,400
that humans aren't the only
species that you know, that

1055
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,320
engages in rape following
overpowering of another group.

1056
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:04,920
I mean we know chimpanzees do
this.

1057
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:10,160
Chimpanzees will kill males, but
will will keep females for their

1058
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,040
own.
But they won't kill them after

1059
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:13,480
they rape them.
And I don't know that they've

1060
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:17,600
ever sorry.
But the chimpanzees won't kill

1061
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:19,880
the the females after they rape
them I imagine, right?

1062
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,840
No, they most often will keep
them and they'll become members

1063
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,360
of their group, which often
happens in humans too, of

1064
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,360
course.
I mean hunter gatherers, you

1065
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:33,200
know, who compete with one
another, who get into conflict.

1066
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:38,400
They, in fact, they are less
likely to kill the young, the

1067
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,800
young women, they, they, they
will rape them, but they will

1068
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,000
also bring them back into their
tribe and, and include them as

1069
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,280
members of their tribe.
And they'll, you know, be

1070
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:49,480
sometimes second or third wives,
for example.

1071
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,120
And they won't, it's less common
to kill the women, of course,

1072
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,840
they'll kill the, the boy
children and they'll kill the

1073
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:01,760
men, but they'll, they'll leave
for their own use, you know, the

1074
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,480
adult women and, and even the,
the young females.

1075
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:09,080
And that's true also in other
species, at least other primates

1076
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:13,840
like chimpanzees, for example.
So anyways, what I mean is, I

1077
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,360
mean part partly it could be
certainly learning is evolved.

1078
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:21,000
On the other hand, like in the
modern Western world, we, you

1079
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:24,480
know, the the US Army, for
example, and Western armies

1080
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,240
spend a huge amount of time and
effort saying don't rape.

1081
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,920
When we go in there, you better
not rape, do not rape.

1082
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,600
There's you will be court
martialed.

1083
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:36,240
You will get in trouble.
And still, you know, you know,

1084
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:41,920
modern, you know, warriors, do
they engage in rape?

1085
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,520
It's it, it's so not only is it
not taught or at least at some

1086
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:53,360
level, but it's actually
legally, you know, forbidden.

1087
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,400
Have you, have you, have you,
have you looked into or

1088
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,920
researched the type of
personalities that are more

1089
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:04,200
inclined to rape or the type of
or, or, or the behaviour that,

1090
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,360
or the, you know, the
circumstances that would lead to

1091
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,920
someone raping?
Other than obviously, you know,

1092
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:10,800
like I understand, again, we're
talking about the context of,

1093
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,680
you know, tribal wars, you know,
from, you know, from, you know,

1094
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,960
anywhere from the relatively
just relatively distant past.

1095
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,280
But today, you know, you're
walking around the city or

1096
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,600
you're walking around Manhattan
or you're walking around Miami,

1097
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:28,560
You know, are there indications
personality wise or, you know,

1098
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,640
you know, just that someone
would be more inclined to

1099
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:33,600
behave?
Is, is there, is it aggression,

1100
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:36,760
Is it rejection?
Is it, is it isolation?

1101
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:42,880
What what causes someone to be
to to to take take their

1102
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,320
frustrations out on another
human being in that, in that

1103
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:52,040
form?
That's an excellent question and

1104
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:54,680
I think in order to answer it,
we have to distinguish different

1105
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:56,840
types of rape.
So for example, there's think

1106
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,800
there's we've done a lot of work
on spousal rape or partner rape,

1107
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:03,440
but there's also stranger rape,
which I think should be

1108
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,440
distinguished from acquaintance
rape.

1109
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,080
And so, for example, the work on
acquaintance rape.

1110
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,000
So this is where you know the
men and women, that the men who

1111
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,560
rape, the women, they know each
other and they've actually maybe

1112
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:17,120
even had dates before, maybe
they've even seen each other

1113
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:19,640
before.
Those men who engage in

1114
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:23,320
acquaintance rape, they are
typically rated as the most

1115
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,400
attractive men.
They typically have more sex

1116
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:28,240
than other men.
They're sort of the so-called

1117
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:30,000
players.
And I think what's going on

1118
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,600
there is that these men don't
think they're raping, You know,

1119
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,400
they basically think, well,
surely she can't say no because

1120
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:40,400
who would say no to me?
I'm, I'm handsome and muscly and

1121
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:42,200
I, I have sex with all kinds of
women.

1122
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:46,480
This she can't really mean no.
Maybe this time no means no must

1123
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:48,840
mean yes.
That's one kind of rape, the

1124
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,880
acquaintance rape.
And that's why that's there's a

1125
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:55,440
lot of work showing that men who
are more narcissistic, more

1126
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:59,600
extroverted, you know, these are
men who are more likely to be

1127
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:03,000
the acquaintance rapists.
They're also typically they

1128
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,600
display quote good genes.
They're super attractive.

1129
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,760
And I think what's going on,
like I said, is that they they

1130
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,480
just can't imagine that she
really doesn't want to have sex

1131
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:13,920
or they think it's some kind of
game that she's playing with him

1132
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,480
and it's not.
And so those are one type of

1133
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,920
rapists, the stranger rapists.
There's other work suggesting

1134
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,840
that men who, you know, sort of
jump out of the bushes rapists.

1135
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,080
These are guys who are basically
losers.

1136
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:31,560
And they basically have
so-called disadvantaged men who

1137
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:36,120
basically are ugly or poor or
have nothing going for them.

1138
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:38,760
And the only way they're ever
going to have sex, as far as

1139
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:42,200
they've determined and, and
maybe realistically is to force

1140
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:45,360
it.
And so these are the, these are

1141
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:47,800
often referred to as
competitively disadvantaged men.

1142
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:52,800
Another way of saying loser,
which is a very different kind

1143
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,760
of rapist from the, you know,
the acquaintance rapist.

1144
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,120
And then with partner rapes
there that's, you know, we,

1145
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:01,800
we've studied partner rape or
spousal rape.

1146
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:07,600
And there it, it's predicted by,
by many of the things that

1147
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:12,000
predict, you know, perceptions
of, of increased risk of, of

1148
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:16,760
sperm competition.
So, for example, men who have

1149
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:21,480
raped their partners typically
report very high suspicions that

1150
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,280
their partners had sex with
other men, sometimes multiple

1151
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,000
times.
And sometimes this is

1152
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,200
pathological and sometimes it's
it's accurate.

1153
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:33,360
And again, that's not to justify
their rape, it's to understand

1154
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,840
why they would do this.
Yeah, I don't think any, I don't

1155
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,560
think anyone.
It's none of this is none of

1156
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:42,680
this is justifications.
It's all it's all just getting

1157
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,120
to the root cause of behavior, I
think.

1158
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,600
Yeah, yes.
And I think that's a common

1159
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,000
misunderstanding, though.
People think that if you're

1160
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:56,080
getting an explanation for
something that somehow you're

1161
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,800
justifying it.
But that's like blaming

1162
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,560
oncologists for cancer.
It's a good question.

1163
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:03,480
It's a good clue by the way,
you.

1164
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:09,160
Know Word.
Well, yeah, you mean, I mean, I

1165
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:11,440
shouldn't have to say that.
I have three daughters, two

1166
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,240
sisters, a mother.
I'm not interested in advocating

1167
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:16,760
rape.
But see, that's what people

1168
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,600
sometimes think, especially if
they take an evolutionary

1169
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:21,640
perspective.
They they then think that, oh,

1170
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:24,680
so you're saying that because
it's natural, then it's OK, just

1171
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,480
let boys be boys?
Hell no, as far as I'm

1172
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,040
concerned.
But if we want to stop it, we

1173
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:31,280
better figure out what's causing
it.

1174
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:34,320
Yeah, that's what I that, that's
the way, that's the way that I

1175
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,920
look at things too.
And I think that it's, I mean,

1176
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,360
you know, I mean, we've tried, I
feel like you've tried the other

1177
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:43,400
way and the other way just
doesn't work, you know, because

1178
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:45,720
you end up just running in
circles and cutting out, you

1179
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:48,360
know, and you and, and you just
end up do, you know, making the

1180
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:52,640
same mistakes or allowing the
same kind of, you know, people

1181
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:54,720
to kind of bubble up the same
type of personalities to bubble

1182
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:56,680
up to the surface.
If you don't, if you don't

1183
01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:58,440
understand what's causing that
to happen.

1184
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,160
Yeah.
So.

1185
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,160
Yes, I mean a general principle.
I mean please.

1186
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:11,640
Please finish the thought, yeah.
OK, well, my, my general thought

1187
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:15,520
was, I mean, as a scientist,
it's, you know, as a researcher,

1188
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:18,520
my working assumption is that
it's always better to know more

1189
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:24,960
than to know less.
Yeah, yeah, definitely is, is,

1190
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,640
do you consider, do you consider
manipulation to require a good

1191
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:31,360
idea?
Sorry, I, I think there's a

1192
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:32,680
little bit of a, what do you
call it?

1193
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:34,880
I think there's a little bit of
a delay, which is why we're

1194
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:36,080
answering each other at
different points.

1195
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:42,680
Do is, is manipulation
considered rape?

1196
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:46,120
If you guilt someone into
something, if you manipulate

1197
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:50,400
them, if you use your words or
your or, or or whatever to, you

1198
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:52,760
know, let's say my, I come home,
God, you know, let's just say

1199
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:55,200
someone comes home and their
wives are tired and they're

1200
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:58,360
feeling good and they and they
talk their wives into it.

1201
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,040
Come on, please.
Come on.

1202
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:02,720
You know, I'm not, you know, or
you know, it's been so long,

1203
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:04,360
blah, blah.
And the woman finally goes

1204
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:07,560
whatever, you know, and like
they don't feel, especially if

1205
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:12,040
you're an associate or a, or a,
or a spouse, right?

1206
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:15,480
How do you what?
How do you Where do we draw the

1207
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,760
lines for what's considered rape
as opposed to not?

1208
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,280
I mean, that is an excellent
question.

1209
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:27,080
And in fact, the way we've
developed a measure of sexual

1210
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:29,200
coercion and it's called the
sexual coercion and intimate

1211
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:32,360
relationship scale.
And it includes, yes, we do ask

1212
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:36,080
about physical force, but it
includes all sorts of things

1213
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:39,400
like commitment, manipulation,
you know, saying that, Oh, well,

1214
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:46,120
you know, if you love me, you
would hinting at, you know, at

1215
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,600
the fact that other wives have
sex more often with their

1216
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,760
husbands than we do.
I mean, we include we, we, we

1217
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:54,520
refer to that as sexual
coercion.

1218
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:57,440
That is a type of coercion.
Now, you might not, I mean, I

1219
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:01,360
think rape flat out physical
force, I think is, you know, is

1220
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:03,800
sort of the, is the at the
extreme end.

1221
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,640
But there's all sorts of
manipulative things that men do

1222
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:10,480
and it's typically men seeking
sex from women.

1223
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,600
But if there's all, if there's a
whole range of, of manipulative

1224
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:17,080
tactics that men use by their
own reports.

1225
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:19,200
I mean, we actually developed
this inventory by asking men and

1226
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:22,720
women, what are some of the
things that men do to manipulate

1227
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:25,240
you to have sex.
And we or, or we ask men, what

1228
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:28,640
are some of the things that you
do to encourage your, your

1229
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:30,520
partner to have sex with you?
And then we developed this

1230
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,200
inventory that has this, you
know, it's a very broad

1231
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:38,120
assessment of sexually coercive
verbal behaviors, you know,

1232
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:42,840
emotional manipulation, you
know, all sorts of, you know,

1233
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:46,200
everything, you know, short of
physical force.

1234
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:48,440
Now we do, we do ask about
physical force as well.

1235
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:54,080
But far more couples engage in,
you know, sexually coercive, you

1236
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:56,800
know, verbalizations and
behaviors.

1237
01:06:56,800 --> 01:07:00,400
Then then actually for sex, I
mean, that's fairly rare,

1238
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:04,400
forcing sex.
I mean, men do it, of course,

1239
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:08,560
but you know, that's the last
resort.

1240
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:14,440
And and even then men, you know,
the vascular men don't force it.

1241
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:19,760
What's the difference between
the the self reported methods

1242
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:23,320
for men and women to try to
coerce their their spouse into

1243
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:25,600
relationships into into having
sex?

1244
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:34,120
Unless they're pretty similar?
I mean, unless they're pretty

1245
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:37,640
similar.
Well, I mean, we really haven't.

1246
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:44,880
I mean, the truth is that it's
99.9% of the time.

1247
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:49,200
If there's any coercion going
on, it's women.

1248
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:51,520
Excuse me, it's men who are
attempting the coercion.

1249
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:56,800
And that's in part because women
are the gatekeepers to when sex

1250
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:59,000
occurs.
I mean, outside of rape, it's

1251
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:01,480
women who decide when sex will
happen, under what

1252
01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:03,360
circumstances, under what
conditions.

1253
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,360
And that's true in dating
relationships just as certainly

1254
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:09,800
as it's true in long term
married relationships.

1255
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:13,480
I mean, we've, we've done work
on conflict and relationships

1256
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:18,680
and the number one consistently
the most we've studied what we

1257
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:20,920
call sources of anger,
irritation and upset.

1258
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:24,680
And the number one most
upsetting thing that husbands

1259
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:29,560
report that their wives do is
withhold sex of all the things

1260
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:33,439
that their wife could do or say
or, or, or how they could

1261
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:34,800
behave.
I mean, the number one thing

1262
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,680
that men report is she withholds
sex.

1263
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:40,200
She won't give sex when I want
it.

1264
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:44,359
And that tells you something
about, you know, about male

1265
01:08:44,359 --> 01:08:47,080
psychology and about, in
contrast, about female

1266
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:48,760
psychology.
I mean, the short answer is

1267
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:52,960
females rarely have to coerce
sex.

1268
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:55,000
I mean, sex happens when they
say it happens.

1269
01:08:56,399 --> 01:08:58,960
Yeah, yeah.
That could attest to that.

1270
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:06,319
Well, well, on the other side of
that, the truth of the matter is

1271
01:09:06,319 --> 01:09:10,359
that we really haven't studied
female use of sexually coercive

1272
01:09:10,359 --> 01:09:15,560
behaviors, in part because we
just have not seen that as an

1273
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:18,960
issue of conflict where women
are attempting to coerce sex

1274
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:21,240
from their husbands.
Right.

1275
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:25,840
Do you think that falls under
the same kind of category as,

1276
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:28,760
you know, the people that say
that like, you know, that like

1277
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:32,240
when a high school kid sleeps
with his, his, you know, a guy

1278
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:35,279
sleeps with his, you know, hot
math teacher, it's not the same

1279
01:09:35,279 --> 01:09:39,200
thing as like a guy, a male math
teacher sleeping with his 17

1280
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:43,439
year old female student.
You know, you think that that

1281
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:47,840
meaning they're obviously both,
you know, not obviously not

1282
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:51,319
acceptable in any kind of way,
shape or form, but there's

1283
01:09:51,319 --> 01:09:53,560
almost seems to be a different
type of like response.

1284
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,440
There is a different type of
response when society hears that

1285
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:00,320
a, you know, a 16 year old, you
know, high schooler got laid.

1286
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:04,080
Then when the 17 year old girl
got, you know, you know, stuck

1287
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:09,880
with her math teacher, do you
think that it's going to that,

1288
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:12,640
that, you know, we so even
though we look at it

1289
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:15,680
differently, we don't say, you
know, that obviously it does

1290
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:17,080
have the same kind of
consequences.

1291
01:10:17,440 --> 01:10:19,920
Do you think that that we're
going to that there's going to

1292
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:21,800
be research that shows that
there's going to be a little bit

1293
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:23,760
that there's going to be
different manipulation tactics

1294
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:26,760
that women that women use to get
sex when they don't want, you

1295
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:31,520
know, when their husbands don't
necessarily want it is my

1296
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:32,560
question.
I, I don't know.

1297
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:34,600
I don't know if I'm phrasing my
question well enough.

1298
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:36,440
I don't know if I'm making
myself clear.

1299
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:42,640
Yeah, no, I mean, well, I would
say that.

1300
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:47,480
I mean, I don't doubt that
women, if you just take married

1301
01:10:47,480 --> 01:10:50,840
couples, I I have no doubt that
women sometimes do coerce sex.

1302
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:55,240
They must.
But my guess is their tactics

1303
01:10:55,400 --> 01:11:00,240
are likely to be less refined,
less exacting, less, you know,

1304
01:11:00,480 --> 01:11:05,080
because they don't have to be.
I mean, women, generally

1305
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:08,480
speaking, compared to men, just
don't have to engage in the kind

1306
01:11:08,480 --> 01:11:12,960
of intense coercion to convince
their partner to have sex with

1307
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:18,880
them.
I mean, men are much less, well,

1308
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:22,080
men are much more interested in
sex under any circumstance,

1309
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:23,680
under any condition and with any
person.

1310
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:30,400
I mean, they're, they're far
less, you know, men are far

1311
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:35,080
less.
What's the word choosy selective

1312
01:11:35,480 --> 01:11:37,800
about when and where and with
whom they have sex?

1313
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,800
And that's just not men.
That's that's all males, right?

1314
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:43,040
The vast majority of males
across the animal species.

1315
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:46,520
Right, right, right, right.
But you're, yeah, you mentioned

1316
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:48,680
the the issue of the teacher,
you know, especially the

1317
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:51,440
student.
Well, I was going to say that.

1318
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:54,000
I mean, of course, legally it's
the same thing, but I think

1319
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,480
you're absolutely right.
It's psychologically and

1320
01:11:56,480 --> 01:12:02,400
sociologically it's a very
different activity in part.

1321
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:07,480
In fact, you know, there's
often, you know, groans about,

1322
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:11,640
you know, the 16 year old that
had sex with his hot 25 year old

1323
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:13,800
teacher.
It's like, where's the crime?

1324
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:19,840
Which you couldn't say ever.
You know with, with, you know in

1325
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:21,360
the reverse scenario.
Right.

1326
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:24,760
Yeah.
I think it's interesting.

1327
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:29,120
What is some, what's some
research that you're interested

1328
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:32,600
in now that you're going to be
that you're looking to kind of

1329
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:34,800
build on and what's some stuff
that you're looking to study in

1330
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:42,080
the future?
OOP you cut out a little bit.

1331
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:44,080
I'm sorry about that.
I said.

1332
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:46,000
What are some stuff that you're
working on that you're

1333
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,000
interested in working on in the
future and what are you working

1334
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:49,120
on now?
What kind of research?

1335
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:56,920
Sure.
So, well, let's see, we have

1336
01:12:57,160 --> 01:12:59,160
several different projects
ongoing right now.

1337
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:03,320
And most of these, in fact, all
of them are, you know, projects

1338
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:06,800
that graduate students are
conducting for their either

1339
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:12,040
their master's thesis or their
doctoral dissertation and or

1340
01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:13,960
just collaborative work we're
doing with other labs.

1341
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:17,040
One of the things we're doing
right now is we're looking at, I

1342
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:22,680
have a student who's interested
in homicide, suicide, spousal

1343
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:26,840
homicide, suicide.
So we know, for example, that in

1344
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:30,080
particular, we know that and
we're talking here about men who

1345
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:33,400
kill their their female
partners, their female wives,

1346
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:35,040
excuse me, men who kill their
wives.

1347
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:39,640
We know that about half the time
they subsequently then kill

1348
01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:41,720
themselves.
And this is in Western

1349
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:43,080
countries.
We don't really have a lot of

1350
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:45,480
data for non Western countries.
This is, you know, police

1351
01:13:45,480 --> 01:13:48,560
recorded crimes and so forth.
And so one of my students is

1352
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:53,200
investigating whether or not
there might be differentiating

1353
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:57,320
factors between men who kill
their partners and don't kill

1354
01:13:57,320 --> 01:13:59,440
themselves and men who kill
their partners and do kill

1355
01:13:59,440 --> 01:14:01,480
themselves.
And what's weird or not weird.

1356
01:14:01,480 --> 01:14:05,440
But what's interesting is that,
again, about half the time men

1357
01:14:05,440 --> 01:14:07,160
kill themselves after killing
their partner.

1358
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:11,360
Half the time they don't.
And so she's very interested in

1359
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:14,720
understanding, you know, in an
exploratory way, Why is this?

1360
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:17,400
Why do some men kill themselves
and why do some men not?

1361
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:20,400
So that's one project that's
that's going on.

1362
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:24,520
I also have another student who
she's very interested in

1363
01:14:25,480 --> 01:14:29,680
understanding why she's looking
at a sample of intimate partner

1364
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:32,920
homicides.
So these are and in this case,

1365
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:34,920
it's again men who have killed
their partners.

1366
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:37,400
And one of the things she's
become very interested in is

1367
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:42,120
understanding why non fatal
strangulation is such a terribly

1368
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:44,240
good predictor of eventually
killing a partner.

1369
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:47,280
So what we find is that one of
the best predictors of a man

1370
01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:50,520
killing his partner is a
previous report that he choked

1371
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:53,640
her out, you know, that he
choked her to the point of she

1372
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:58,400
lost consciousness.
When men non fatally strangle

1373
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:00,720
their partners, that is they're
not dead, they choke them out,

1374
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:03,920
that is a terribly good
predictor that eventually he's

1375
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:06,440
going to kill her.
And so she's very interested in

1376
01:15:06,440 --> 01:15:10,200
understanding why is that?
Is it a peculiarly strong

1377
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:12,520
indicator of male sexual
jealousy?

1378
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:15,360
Perhaps.
And, you know, and we know that

1379
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:19,600
male sexual jealousy is a
leading cause of wife battering

1380
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:21,360
and wife homicide around the
world.

1381
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:24,480
And so she's looking at it from
the perspective of male sexual

1382
01:15:24,480 --> 01:15:28,120
jealousy, the psychology of
sexual jealousy, and why choking

1383
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:31,080
a partner out in particular,
hands on the throat, why that's

1384
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:33,440
such a good predictor of
eventually killing the woman.

1385
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:35,560
So that's another project.
Yeah.

1386
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:42,840
Why can Why would you assume
that it's about jealousy as

1387
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:48,080
opposed to the, I guess,
perceived pleasure of violence

1388
01:15:48,080 --> 01:15:50,760
with sex?
Oh God, I'm sorry for him.

1389
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:51,840
I couldn't hear what you were
saying.

1390
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:56,600
I said, why do you, why do we
assume that it's part it's

1391
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:59,880
because of jealousy as opposed
to pleasure associated with

1392
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:05,120
violence and sex?
You're you're there's no the

1393
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:10,640
audio cut out.
Todd, thank you so much for

1394
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:12,400
coming on.
I really appreciate your time.

1395
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,040
Sorry I had a little bit of
technical issues towards the end

1396
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:19,360
of that, but this was really,
really, really insightful and

1397
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:22,000
fascinating and I really learned
a lot and I really appreciate

1398
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:24,440
the time.
I hope to be able to connect

1399
01:16:24,440 --> 01:16:27,160
soon and record another episode
sometime down the line.

1400
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:30,800
Thank you so much and I look
forward to being in touch.

1401
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:31,640
Have a good one.