Science Series 4: Dr Karen Barrett / Improvising & Creativity / Music Perception / Dementia & Aging

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Welcome to another episode of
come together

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we are live doctor Karen Barrett
well, Barrett welcome so thank

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you so much for coming on how
are you I'm.

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Good, and I'm delighted to be
here.

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Yes, well, this is going to be
such a fun episode.

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I have been slowly.
It's funny because as my podcast

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comes along, I find what I'm
actually interested in based on

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when I talk to people, what they
say that I pick up on.

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And then I want to dive deeper
into those concepts.

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So I was recently recording with
Doctor Lisa Gable out of

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Lafayette University and she's a
neurologist and physiologist.

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And we touched on music and the
brain a little bit.

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And, and as soon as we started
touching on that, I was like, I

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got to, I got to learn more
about this.

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And so, so here we are and, and
I am so excited to be in your

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wheelhouse right here.
And tell me, tell me a little

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bit about the kind of research
that you do or the audience and

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a little bit about your
background, if you don't mind.

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Yeah.
So why don't I start with my

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background because I think it
kind of explains a lot of what I

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do.
So I grew up in a very musical

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household.
My dad was a classical, well,

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not professional, but he was a
classical guitarist, pretty

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serious.
And we basically had music going

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all the time.
So I started playing piano when

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I was 5, and I was really
serious about it.

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You know, in my childhood I was
doing, you know, the prep

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Conservatory programs and
competitions and all that.

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And then when I got to college,
I did want to do music, but my

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parents were like, you should
probably have, you know, a

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backup plan.
What if you break your hand or

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something?
I was like, OK, that's smart.

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So I went to Wellesley College
and I double majored.

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I did music and I did
neuroscience.

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And at the time they were
totally separate field.

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I was just doing my, my music
and I was doing my neuroscience,

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but I wasn't trying to combine
all of them.

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And then when I, you know, the
only time I finally heard about

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the field of music and
neuroscience was meet my senior

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year.
I had to do a lab project and I

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decided to, you know, we had
these invertebrate crayfish

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brains and we were looking at
neurogenesis.

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So I said, hey, let's expose
them to music.

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They don't have ears
traditionally in the same way

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that we do, but they can feel
vibrations and organized

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vibrations.
So we did it and we found it.

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That did increase neurogenesis.
But like I said, this was just a

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tiny little class paper, and I
kind of just didn't really think

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too much more about it.
After college, I wanted to go to

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really focus on my instrument
because I think at Wellesley I

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felt very split brain, you know,
trying to keep up my

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neuroscience but also practice
and just not finding that there

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was enough time to do
everything.

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So I went to Peabody
Conservatory and there it was.

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I did my master's degrees in
piano performance and musicology

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and was fabulous.
I was getting to music 12 hours

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a day, really got to focus on my
yeah, I got to really do my art.

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It felt wonderful.
The only thing though, is that

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we were always playing at night
and I'm a morning person.

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So this was, I was like, you
know, I don't think this

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lifestyle is working for me.
So after that I decided that I

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was like wanted to go back to
academia and I wanted to do a

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PhD.
And that's how I found the music

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cognition program at
Northwestern.

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It was me because the cognition
in theory.

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So we took all the usual classes
you would need to teach music at

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a university level, so pedagogy,
theory, analysis, etcetera.

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But I also was able to work in
auditory neuroscience.

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So this was the first time I was
really able to combine my

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interest in the brain and how
the brain processes music.

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It must.
Be so exciting.

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Yeah, it was so exciting.
I like felt like it was such a

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privilege to get to do 2 things
that I loved and kind of mesh

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them together.
Was it considered?

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I'm sorry to interrupt.
I just got a couple of quick

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questions if you don't mind is
first of all, if anyone that

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doesn't know neurogenesis that
you mentioned the word that you

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mentioned earlier, can you just
break that down quickly?

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It's OK, no problem.
Yeah, Neurogenesis is the birth

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of new neurons.
So neurons are our brain cells.

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So neurogenesis is looking at
the at the creation of new brain

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cells.
And so does.

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That not usually happen
naturally, Or does that need?

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It does so nowadays.
We do know that our brain is

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plastic.
In fact, this is a whole theme

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of all.
My PhD dissertation work was

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looking at how the brain changes
as a result of experience and

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musical training.
And all of that is known as

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neuroplasticity.
So it's the idea that your brain

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changes as part of learning and
development, but also because of

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your expertise and your
experience.

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So neurogenesis is part of it,
you know, the birth of actual

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new neurons.
But part of what also happens in

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neuroplasticity is that you form
new connections between certain

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neurons, right?
And you prune other things that

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are not used.
So it's this idea that your

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brain is kind of changing in
plastic because you're

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experiencing things.
And that was the whole focus on

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my PhD dissertation was what
happened?

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How are the brains of musicians
different from non musicians?

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How do they hear differently?
How do they think differently,

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you know, because they're
musical experts.

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And so I was always really
interested.

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I guess that is kind of a theme
is this idea of like, how does

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the brain remodel itself?
Because you've done music and I

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loved it, you know, But you
know, that ivory tower and

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academia can be kind of
isolating.

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Sometimes you're doing things in
a really abstract way.

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And so when I finished my PHDI
really wanted to do work that

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was more translational, meaning
like actually get to do it in

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the real world, see how it makes
a difference on patients, people

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living with things.
So I then did a postdoc.

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A postdoctoral fellowship is
basically a period after your

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PhD where you're training in new
skills.

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And that's when I came to UCSFI
was working with Doctor Charles

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Lim.
He was the head of the Musics

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and Sound Perception lab at
UCSF.

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And so when I started working
with him, you know, I, you know,

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during my PHDI had really
focused on these like small

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perceptual experiments.
And I was learning EEG, which is

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when you wear the scalpel, you
know, scalpel on your head,

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right?
And you're measuring all the

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brain waves from your, from your
brain.

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But when I got to UCSFI said,
OK, I know how to EEG, but my

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new skill that I was learning
was F MRI.

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So functional magnetic resonance
imaging, which is this idea that

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you use a giant scanner and you
can see which parts of the brain

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are active or deactivated while
you're doing particular tasks.

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So that was something because I
was working in Charles's lab, I

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basically started having new
research areas.

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One was he the neuroscience of
improvisation.

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And that's because Charles
himself is a really, he's a

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cochlear implant surgeon, but
also a very experienced jazz

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saxophonist.
So he was already studying

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improv and I wanted to study
improv with him.

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And then another research area
that I started during my postdoc

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was music perception in cochlear
implant users.

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So as I said, Charles is a
cochlear implant surgeon.

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So these are devices that get
inserted into your, let's say

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you're deaf and your cochlear is
not functioning, which is your

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hearing organ.
You put the cochlear implanting

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air in and now you can hear.
Now maybe it's, it's very much

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maximized for speech.
Like that's what the cochlear

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implants are really good at
restoring, which is already

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amazing if you go from being
deaf to suddenly being able to

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hear people talk to you.
But we are cochlear implants are

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not as good yet is really
complex sounds.

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So think music or think noisy
restaurants or things that are

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just emotion.
Emotion is a very rich kind of

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acoustic signal.
So we study music perception and

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cochlear implant users.
So those are two of my research

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areas, Neuroscience of improv,
music perception, and cochlear

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implant users.
And then after I finished my

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postdoc, I started, I became a
faculty member here at UCSF.

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I am an assistant professor now
and I have a joint appointment.

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So I'm in the Institute for
Health and Aging, which is a

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research unit within the School
of Nursing.

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And then I'm also still in the
Department of Otolaryngology

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with Charles Lim.
And so the one recent new area

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that I've been adding to my
research area is studying the

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use of music for health and
well-being.

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So that's what I studied now
too, is I've added looking at

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music and health.
So I guess widely you could say

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that, you know, my research
falls in these three pots, the

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neuroscience of creativity and
improv, music perception and

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cochlear implant users and hard
of hearing individuals and then

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music for health and aging.
So it's been kind of a long

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journey, but it it, I don't make
sense, I guess, given they all

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do, you know?
It feels as you're explaining

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it, it feels all very intuitive.
And what, what I noticed also,

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you know, similarly again with
Doctor Gable was that she

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mentioned, you know, we, she and
I mentioned we're talking about

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the fact that she didn't quite
know where her research

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initially was going to lead her.
And she said there was something

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really beautiful about not
searching for having an angle in

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mind and then trying to get
there, but starting with what

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you're excited and passionate
about and then seeing where that

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where your nose and your senses
and your intuition takes you.

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Yeah.
And I think that's absolutely

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what happened to me.
You know, I get contacted by a

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lot of people who want to do
careers in music and science or

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blending the arts and humanities
with the sciences.

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And they're like, do you know,
did you, you know, your career

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was going to be like this?
I'm like, no, not at all.

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Like on paper it looks very
neat.

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Like I lined everything up.
But the reality was every day I

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was just saying, well, what do I
enjoy doing?

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You know, And it's like, I found
the stuff that I love doing.

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I mean, part of why I was drawn
to doing music in the brain

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research is that I was spending
my weekends reading these books

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by, Oliver Said.
Hey everyone real quick if

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you're enjoying the show, click
subscribe and rate the show. 5

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stars helps a ton.
Thanks so much.

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You know, Musicophilia or this
is your brain on music or

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anything.
So I was like, well, if I'm

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doing this for my fun anyways,
why don't I study it, you know,

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And so I think I've always just
been someone who, you know, I

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don't really know where my
research career will be.

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I think I'm still trying to
figure that out.

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But you know, it's fun.
It's fun as long as I I always

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have this unifying love of music
and how it affects our health

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and our brain so.
Yeah, yeah.

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And I think it's super, super
important.

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And again, I think that there's
a real value in being, I, I

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talked about this in different
contexts, but there's a real

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value in my opinion in play.
And this actually probably goes

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directly in with your team with,
with play and experimentation to

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see where we go.
And it feels, it feels to me and

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part of the reason why I'm
actually why I, why I, I don't

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typically fit into any kind of
formal box.

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And I have a little bit of a
push back towards typical

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academia or, or anything like
or, or even any kind of typical

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bureaucracy or corporate
democracy or anything like that

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I have a very hard time with.
But I just like to kind of sense

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out and sniff out where I'm
going.

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I have no problem with the work.
I just like to have that kind of

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play in spirit of adventure
while I go along.

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Absolutely.
And as a creativity researcher,

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I fully support that.
I think play is way more

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important than we realize.
I mean, we play with our kids

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all the time, but adults really
need play too, and I think play

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is a huge component of being
creative, so I think it's great.

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Yeah, and this is actually going
to take me.

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So I wonder where we you can
actually choose which kind of

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path we're going to go down.
I was going to ask you based on

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we work with Doctor Charles
about improv versus classical

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playing because you mentioned
that your father and you, you

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know, your background and your
music that you played was

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classical.
And I, and from my

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understanding, and please
correct me if I don't, if I'm

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wrong, classical music tends to
be very structured, I believe.

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And then obviously jazz music
and improv, improvisational

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music, you know, like this, like
the ones that are so active in

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00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,120
San Francisco historically
especially, has really, really

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focused a lot more on being
unstructured.

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00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,560
So yeah.
So we can either kind of discuss

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that or I was actually going to
ask you about the difference

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00:11:45,560 --> 00:11:49,760
between the cochlear implants
and their and processing music

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00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:51,560
as opposed to speech and why
that would be.

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00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:56,000
Let's go to the F MRI one
because I think that's that

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00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,720
covered that that links really
well with our idea of play and

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00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,600
so yeah so this idea, you're
right, I think classical music,

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00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,920
at least the way we learn it now
and Conservatory.

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00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,360
So when you go to music school,
it is very structured and

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00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,920
hierarchical.
It's creative in that you are

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00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,680
trying to play really
expressively, but it's still

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within constraints, right?
Like Beethoven wrote the score,

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you have the notes, you are
supposed to interpret it.

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But it's creativity within risk
constraints.

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00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,240
And I think that's really
different from jazz, for

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example, an improv, because then
you're doing something we call

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generative creativity, right?
You have just pulling new notes

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00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:31,920
out.
This hasn't been pre written.

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00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,680
You write it, you know, you're
trying to spin something on the

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spot.
And I think something that

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00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,400
really fascinated me about
improv when I first started

257
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,840
researching it as a postdoc was
that I'm not very good at

258
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,160
improv.
So no, in the in the past,

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00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,040
actually in classical music,
there used to be a ton of

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00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,640
improv.
So back in the time of Mozart,

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00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,120
he would have improvised the
entire cadenza.

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00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,160
Every time he had a concerto, he
would have taken material from

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00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,400
the concerto and then just, you
know, spring something together

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00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,720
that's like 2 to 3 minutes.
Or, you know, if you're a

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00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,080
vocalist, you just suddenly make
up all the trills and the

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00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,080
ornamentations.
There used to be be a ton of

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00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,400
improv, but I will say our way
of learning music now, classical

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00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,560
music now is very structured.
And so I, I find for me, I'm not

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00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:18,360
very good at it.
And I think I was really

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00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,040
fascinated because to me, improv
always looked like this really

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00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,160
magical thing.
Like, how are they pulling those

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00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,760
notes out of thin air?
And how did they not make

273
00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,240
mistakes?
And, you know, and I think

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00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,120
that's what fascinated me about
it in the first place.

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00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:37,080
And so to study, you know,
creativity in the F MRI scanner,

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00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,600
right?
So there's what we do as

277
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,520
artists, but then we have to
think about how to make this

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00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,240
rigorous as a scientist, right?
So in one of Charles's original

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00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,880
studies, this is the Lemon Bron
2008 + 1 paper.

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00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,920
Basically, he created a paradigm
where you were either going to

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00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,160
play a control.
So the control was he wrote this

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00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,840
12 bar Blues piece, he called it
magnetism.

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00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,960
And so he either had jazz
experts play that piece that he

284
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,360
had written, they memorized it
and played it before they went

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00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,800
into the into the scanner, or
for the experimental condition,

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00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,240
they improvised based on it.
So they still use that 12 bar

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00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,760
Blues architecture, but now they
could do whatever they want with

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00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,840
it.
They had to keep the same tempo,

289
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,040
the same general framework, but
they could improvise.

290
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,080
So if you think about it, the,
the control condition is kind of

291
00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,160
like what I as a classical
musician would do, right?

292
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,480
Play a piece from memory,
interpret it the way I want, but

293
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,400
we're contrasting it against an
experimental condition where

294
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,360
they're generating new material.
So really then the two

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00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,200
difference, the difference
between these two conditions is

296
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,240
what what happens in the brain
when you are generating new

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00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,120
musical material right from
scratch.

298
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,000
So what you do as an fMRI, you
know when you're doing these

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00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,200
fMRI studies is you put your
jazz musician in the scanner and

300
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,120
you can imagine a scanner is
like basically a big magnet,

301
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,480
like a tube.
So what they had to do is they

302
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,600
created this special keyboard.
It's a non ferromagnetic custom

303
00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,960
made keyboard that's safe to go
into the scanner.

304
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,440
And then basically all the
musicians lie down and they hold

305
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,760
the keyboard on their lap.
And then as they go in the

306
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,200
scanner, we have what we call it
the face quick, but it's the

307
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,200
Darth Vader mask basically.
And there's a little mirror on

308
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,720
it and they can see their hands.
So while they're in the scanner,

309
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,000
you know, they have to stay
really, really still.

310
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,880
So you get a good picture of the
brain, but they can just use

311
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,960
their their hands.
So they're playing with the

312
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,680
right hand.
They're either playing that 12

313
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,920
bar Blues when when prompted, or
they're improvising on that,

314
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,920
that 12 bar Blues.
And what Charles's original

315
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,120
study found is that if you take
the you you to isolate what

316
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,080
activity is specific to
improvisation, it's really

317
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:39,760
interesting.
There's like a distinct both

318
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,640
neural activation and
deactivation in the brain that's

319
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,680
associated with improv.
So essentially what they find is

320
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,360
when you look at the structures
in the brain, we see an

321
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,120
activation of the medial
prefrontal cortex, which is kind

322
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:53,360
of here in the front of the
head.

323
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,640
And that's an area that's
usually very goal oriented and

324
00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,440
task oriented that parts gets
activated, which makes sense.

325
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,560
You're trying to like do
something right in the in the

326
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,120
scanner.
But at the same time, we also

327
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,280
saw deactivation of a plate part
of the brain called the

328
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,400
dorsolatto prefrontal cortex.
And this dorsolateral prefrontal

329
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,560
cortex deactivates when you,
when you're trying to, you know,

330
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,560
turn off the judgment area of
your brain when you're trying to

331
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,400
just get in the in flow states,
you know, when you're, you're

332
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,920
kind of, so it's, it's like
improv is this kind of goal

333
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,560
oriented task, but with this
defocused kind of form of

334
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,400
attention, right?
And so because we had this very

335
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,080
distinct pattern, right,
activation of the medial

336
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,960
prefrontal cortex and
deactivation with dorsolateral

337
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,760
prefrontal cortex, Charles said
not only are these the neural

338
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,640
substrates of improv, but also
maybe about flow, right?

339
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,640
Because when an artist is in the
zone, especially a really

340
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,600
experienced jazz musician
improvising on something simple

341
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,600
like a 12 bar Blues, they're
hitting flow.

342
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,680
And so that was one of his first
groundbreaking papers.

343
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,720
And ever since then, his lab,
and by extension me, because I

344
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,600
work with him, I've as I've been
with him since I was a postdoc

345
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,040
and now as a faculty member now,
we've continued to study the

346
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:06,960
neural correlates of
improvisation.

347
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,319
So we looked at, OK, those were
jazz experts, but what happens

348
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,800
if we do have kids who don't
play piano?

349
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,480
What happens when they're being
created or what happens to older

350
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,000
adults when they do it?
Or what about, you know, if

351
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,160
you're improvising in different
artistic domains?

352
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,280
Does music look different from
comedic improvisers versus,

353
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,800
like, an artist who's trying to
generate something?

354
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,760
Right.
So that's what our lab studies.

355
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,040
Wow, so, so you actually go
beyond the realm of just music

356
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,840
and you actually look at the
flow and improv and everything.

357
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,960
We're trying to, at least
certainly the field that studies

358
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,440
the neuroscience of generative
creativity or improv, it's the

359
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,760
most we know the most in the
music domain.

360
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,520
And I think that's because music
kind of lends itself easily to

361
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,200
the scanner, right?
You can like put a little

362
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,360
instrument in music has these
discrete parameters that you can

363
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,080
isolate whether it's rhythm or
tempo or so people study music a

364
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,080
lot.
But I think what what our lab is

365
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,680
recently doing, Charles and I
have had funding from the

366
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,920
National Endowment for the Arts
to start A to fund our research

367
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,960
lab for the last 10 years.
And our big project is like, OK,

368
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,520
that's great, but what happened?
What are the neural and

369
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,840
cognitive correlates of doing
improv in different art forms?

370
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,800
So we're still studying
musicians, but we're studying

371
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,120
them as case studies.
So we're like, OK, you know,

372
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:24,920
most of data and science is
about averaging a bunch of

373
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,720
brains together and seeing
what's common.

374
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,320
But, you know, you don't go to a
concert hoping for like, an

375
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,960
average concert, right?
The people like Esperanza

376
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,160
Spalding are Hiromi are these
great musicians are unique in

377
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,800
their voices and likely in their
brains, too.

378
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,440
So we're studying a bunch of
these musicians as case studies,

379
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,920
meaning we look at each musician
as their own artistic outliner.

380
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,880
And we like create things that
are very much tailored to them

381
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:50,560
and see what's really unique
about their brain.

382
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,520
But then at the same time, we're
also being, OK, well, can we

383
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,320
design some improv tasks that in
the scanner that look at comedic

384
00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,720
improvisation?
So think professional

385
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:04,120
improvisers from SNL or Second
City, which was the training

386
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:06,600
school for SNL.
So we worked with Second City in

387
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,880
Chicago.
You know, so we're like what

388
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,920
happens in amazing, amazing
improvisers like Tina Fey or,

389
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,800
you know, these people who are
just generating stuff on the

390
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,800
spot.
And then also we're looking at

391
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,720
visual artists.
You know, visual artists don't

392
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,080
improv per SE, but like if you
think about it, they do sketch

393
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:22,640
and just create things
generatively.

394
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,400
And so we're looking at, well,
how is that different versus

395
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,400
copying them?
Like if you give you like, you

396
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,560
know, of still life, you know,
and they're just copying what

397
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,040
they see versus trying to be
creative.

398
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,560
So that in general has been our
large 10 year project for the

399
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,880
last, you know, like I said, for
the last decade we've been

400
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,520
working on trying to understand
different domains, not just

401
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,440
music.
That's amazing.

402
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,360
That's really amazing.
What I would imagine the way

403
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:46,440
that I kind of, while you're
explaining all this, the way

404
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,200
that I kind of imagine this is
you have almost a playground is

405
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,320
the way I look at it.
And and then you can choose to

406
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,120
either play a game and have
organized structure, or you can

407
00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,720
kind of say, Hey, run around and
figure something out and allow

408
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,040
the emergent activities within
this playground happen.

409
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,440
Now, generally rules within the
playground like you can't beat

410
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:06,920
kids up.
You can't, you know, you can't

411
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,320
take kids lunch or whatever it
is.

412
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,840
And there are rules that you got
to stick to, but that doesn't

413
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,320
mean that doesn't by any means.
Restrict your creative

414
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,560
abilities.
Yeah, absolutely.

415
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:19,680
I think that's the hardest
thing.

416
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,400
For the longest time, no one
wanted to study artistic

417
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,800
creativity in the scanner until
Charles started doing it

418
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,160
because, well, on some of it's
hard, right?

419
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,880
Scientists are trying to use
rigor and reproducibility and it

420
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,320
just feels like, well, that's
not what creativity is like.

421
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,960
But I think one of the beauties
of the way Charles designed his

422
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,960
experiment is that, yeah, you're
right, you get to be creative.

423
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,560
There's still constraints, but
you can still be creative.

424
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,600
And you also make a good point
too, which is that something we

425
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,920
started looking at is
improvisation paradise with

426
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:50,280
different degrees of
constraints.

427
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,800
So if we give you a very, you
know, let's just take the

428
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,920
comedic improvisers we could
have, you have a very

429
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,160
constrained improv task where
all you're saying is like words

430
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,680
versus like completely doing a
monologue or a solilokey, right?

431
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,440
So it's like, that's a spectrum
of creativity, right?

432
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,320
And so with our comedian, we
created several paradigms to

433
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,840
kind of look at what is it like
to go from something that's

434
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,920
narrowly creative versus really
creative, right?

435
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,640
And so, yeah, it's taken a lot
of creativity, honestly, from

436
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,400
Charles and I to come up with
these paradigms.

437
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,720
But that's partially why I love
it, you know, because I think

438
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:27,200
both of us are artists and
musicians and and, you know,

439
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,360
scientists.
He's a surgeon and APHD.

440
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,640
But so we're polymats and we
like both parts using both parts

441
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,360
of these, the sides of
ourselves.

442
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,000
And so I love having to use
creativity and be like, OK, I

443
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,640
can make this rigorous for
science, but I can still study

444
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,720
the arts and creativity, right?
In a way that's that's fun.

445
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,800
That's like going to make a
difference, so.

446
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:51,160
Can I ask, just out of
curiosity, what your definition

447
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,000
of creativity is?
Yeah.

448
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,560
So when I say creativity, at
least in the in the, you know,

449
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,480
context of my work, I basically
mean improvisation.

450
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,560
And I specifically mean improv
as a form of like generative

451
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,920
creativity.
So meaning that you generate

452
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,560
material on the spot
spontaneously without having

453
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,200
mapped it out, which as we said,
is kind of like a different

454
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,240
creativity than like playing
classical music where you again

455
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:13,880
have constraints.
You know exactly what you're

456
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,680
going to play, but you get to
play with the tempo or the

457
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,920
expression or, you know, things
like that.

458
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,800
So when I say creativity, I mean
artistic creativity.

459
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,120
I mean improvisation.
I mean generative creativity.

460
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,040
Cool, cool.
Yeah, because the way that I

461
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,480
always thought of it and the way
that I like to think of it is

462
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,160
kind of A and again, you
mentioned this sort of towards

463
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,920
the beginning of the interview
already, but it's a lot to do

464
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,600
with our associations.
And because all of us have our

465
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,240
own very subjective experiences,
what makes our creativity so

466
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,200
much fun is that there's no two
people with the same

467
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,320
experiences, no two people in
genetics.

468
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,200
And So what they would if you if
I asked you what do you

469
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,400
associate with B.B.
King?

470
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,800
You and I will have very
different answers.

471
00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:00,880
My only association with him
might be this, do this duets

472
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,520
album that he has and I'm
associating him with with other

473
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:04,720
artists.
And you could associate him as,

474
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,520
as a, as a Blues, you know, a
performer by himself and and

475
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,080
what you get.
There are totally different

476
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,640
universes, even though we're
talking about the same subject.

477
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,320
Yeah.
And I think that's actually the

478
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,240
beauty of the arts, right?
That it is very, you know, we we

479
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,120
talk about music and music
exists in a culture, right?

480
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:22,880
And exists in a context.
So that's me wearing my my

481
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,120
historical musicology hat.
That music has a context and

482
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:28,960
culture and no artist creates in
a vacuum.

483
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,160
They were influenced by so many
different things.

484
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,040
And so it's, it's interesting
trying to blend these things,

485
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,200
you know, in the, in musicology
and in the arts.

486
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,160
We understand that arts have a
context, but at the same time, I

487
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,840
think sometimes our science is
all about trying to find what is

488
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,120
common to a bunch of things,
what is replicable, rigorous.

489
00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:50,400
And so I think we, we, we found
a good way to navigate both,

490
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,160
right?
We do the group size, what that

491
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,880
we call cohort studies.
When you take a bunch of people

492
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,000
and you average all the results
together, We do that because

493
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,160
that is what we need for
science, right?

494
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,040
Reprint, you know, rigor,
reproducibility, but then we're

495
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,000
also doing these case series
because as Charles and I talked

496
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,640
about and like as an artist, you
would never say like Renee

497
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,920
Fleming is the same as Coltrane,
right?

498
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,920
Like we're all artists, we're
both all they're all equally

499
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,560
talented, but they do really
different things.

500
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,680
So why would you average them
together, right?

501
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,760
And so that's why we do these
case studies because I'm like,

502
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,720
you know, and Esperanza Spalding
is different from her Romy.

503
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,120
They're both top of their game
and jazz right now, but their

504
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:32,120
braids probably have these
unique things that make them

505
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:35,040
them as well as like, you know,
when they create, you have their

506
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,360
unique voice, right?
Everyone brings their, their

507
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:39,120
experiences to their
performance.

508
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:43,120
So This is why we advocated for
using a case study approach too.

509
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:45,680
Now, of course, the, the hard
part about it from a science

510
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,600
perspective, they're like, well,
if it's only an N = 1, right?

511
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,440
If you only have one case study,
you can't, you can't generalize

512
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:53,840
to the rest of the people,
right?

513
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,880
Like Esperanza Spalding isn't
like the rest.

514
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,200
I'm like, understandable.
And that is a fair, fair

515
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,600
critique.
Of course we can't generalize

516
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,800
Esperanza's brain into somebody
else's, but maybe there's

517
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,200
something we can learn like the
more of these case studies we

518
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,000
do, maybe there is then we can
there's maybe patterns that come

519
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,040
out or there's things that we
learn just from looking at

520
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,200
somebody's unique brain, right?
It's just like, yeah, but when

521
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,680
people studied Beethoven's
brain, I'm pretty sure they

522
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,440
analyzed Beethoven's brain,
Einstein's brain, all these

523
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,280
greats throughout history.
There probably are things that

524
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,760
make them very unique.
And then there's probably things

525
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,520
that are pretty common to high
achieving scientists, artists,

526
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,840
etcetera too.
So I think it's a it's, it's

527
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,840
we're always mirroring both.
And to be fair, the whole field

528
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,360
of neuroscience of creativity is
relatively young.

529
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:42,200
I mean, Doctor Lamb Charles says
that when he started this, there

530
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,920
was not a lot of people doing
it.

531
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,840
And now we have an entire
academic society, the Society

532
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,200
for the Neuroscience of
Creativity, that does work in

533
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,880
this field.
So it's changed a lot, just even

534
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,680
in like 25 years.
So it's really exciting.

535
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,120
It's really exciting because,
because, because we could see

536
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:00,600
that there are benefits and I
want to talk to you about some

537
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,400
of them and one of the benefits
potentially.

538
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,520
And again with creativity and,
and this is an observation that

539
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,160
I've had and I wonder what you
think about it.

540
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,360
I've noticed that a lot of the
great improv improvisers or the

541
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:18,160
improv, Oh my gosh, players or
bands all tend to be extremely

542
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,960
steeped in a lot of different
types of musical backgrounds.

543
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,480
And so whether you're talking
about The Allman Brothers or

544
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,120
you're talking about the
Grateful Dead, you're talking

545
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,520
about Billy Strings, you're
talking about even Ella

546
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,560
Fitzgerald.
And again, we, I think we talked

547
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,920
to you about in Doctor Dan
Levitan's book about her, her

548
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,280
scatting, I believe, or maybe I
don't remember if I talked to

549
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:39,760
you about that.
But then you know that there's

550
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,880
something about the like what
you said, the, the, the vocals,

551
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,320
the words as opposed to just
playing where you can kind of

552
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,800
riff based on your, on your
experiences.

553
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,760
It it almost seems that in order
to be able to be a great

554
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,680
improviser, you got to be able
to have a big pool of data to

555
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,000
draw from.
Yes.

556
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,520
And in fact, that's actually
here.

557
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,920
I'm going to pause one second
because I hear my husband

558
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,000
starting to play cello.
So I'm going to just.

559
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:06,960
There you go.
Yeah, thank you.

560
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,480
So yeah your to your point about
that a lot of the great

561
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,800
improvisers have a lot of
knowledge of different genres or

562
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,480
if you I think that's absolutely
true.

563
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,280
So there have been theorists who
have put forth these frameworks

564
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,360
for improvisation and for
example, pressing.

565
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:25,040
Pressing is someone who
theorized like how do people

566
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:26,640
improvise?
Like what is the process?

567
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,000
And what he basically says in,
and I'm summarizing, it's

568
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,480
basically that if you're really
experienced improviser, you have

569
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,240
all these licks and schemas in
your head, right?

570
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,320
You've played all the scales,
you know the scheme, you know

571
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,120
the licks, you know what to do.
And so then when you get very

572
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:45,280
good at it and you've practiced
all those that knowledge and

573
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,840
it's at your fingertips or your
mouth or whatever it is, then

574
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,600
when you sit down to just
create, you're not playing for

575
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,280
nothing.
You're just concatenating and

576
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,040
bringing things together in
really unique ways on the spot.

577
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,480
But it's not that you're
actually pulling from thin air.

578
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,600
You're actually pulling from a
lot of knowledge.

579
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:01,960
So you know, and that's
something like, for example,

580
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,280
Zakir Hussein, who's the
greatest Dublin master that ever

581
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,080
lived.
He just passed away in December.

582
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,320
But one of the things that was
really great about him is not

583
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,160
only is he fantastic at Dubla,
which is Hindustani classical

584
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,280
percussion improvisation, but he
was genre bending, right?

585
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,080
He would work with jazz
musicians or you know, and I

586
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:20,760
love that.
I love, I love artists who

587
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,160
really kind of go outside their
normal routine and can work with

588
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,440
all sorts of different artists
and create something really new.

589
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,360
I know yo-yo Ma as a classical
musician does that too, right?

590
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,440
So I think This is why we love
the idea of looking at each

591
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,800
artist.
Each artist has their own unique

592
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,680
way of things and recombining
things.

593
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,640
And I think this is where the
case study approach has a lot of

594
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,800
benefit, even if it means we
can't generalize to the whole

595
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,880
population.
Definitely, definitely,

596
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,800
definitely.
And I'm also, and I also wonder

597
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,920
if you were to tell someone,
hey, if you want, if you want a

598
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,720
healthier brain or a little bit
more of a if you want to

599
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,320
experience a more
neurogeneration or more

600
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,920
neuroplasticity would expose
themselves to more and different

601
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,440
types of either music or just in
general different types of

602
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,960
information be a necessary
requirement in order to do so.

603
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,880
Yeah, absolutely.
So that was definitely the focus

604
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,880
of my PhD is like I would say as
a researcher that if you want to

605
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,120
increase neuroplasticity, right,
you should learn new skills, do

606
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,200
things that are complex and
multimodal.

607
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,200
So when I say that the reason
music is very powerful as a tool

608
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,840
for neurogenesis, for
neuroplasticity, is because

609
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,360
music involves so many different
activities and processes and

610
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,120
domestics, right?
There's pattern recognition and

611
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,200
emotional processing and sound
matching and moving your body

612
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,800
and moving your fingers and
matching to space and your

613
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,560
memory.
And so because of that, I often

614
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,160
say that that's why music is
biologically powerful.

615
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,960
So let's say you were, and you
know, a lot of the research

616
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,600
shows if you play music, if you
try it as a new skill, it does

617
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,280
do great things for the brain.
And this is particularly

618
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,520
important because if you think
about it from the opposite

619
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,280
spectrum, by the time we get
old, right, when we're older,

620
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,520
there are neurodegenerative
disorders, right?

621
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,240
There's Parkinson's and
Alzheimer's.

622
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,960
That's from the death of
neurons, right?

623
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,440
So if you can do things like
music, which almost will serve

624
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,040
as a prophylactic kind of thing
where you're increasing

625
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,760
neurogenesis, right?
That helps combat this kind of

626
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,240
cognitive decline that's going
to happen with age for all of

627
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,880
us.
So I for a long time, I've

628
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,560
always told everyone do music,
you know, like even listening to

629
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,960
music is good, listening to new
things is good, but actually

630
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,360
doing it to like that procedure,
cubedral memory of trying to do

631
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,400
something is really important.
And if you're not into music,

632
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:37,720
there are other things you can
do, right?

633
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,720
That's why people recommend
things like learning new

634
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,040
languages or crossword puzzles
or doing a new learning a new

635
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,520
art form, right.
But I do think music is as a, as

636
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,160
a researcher studies music, I
think music is particularly

637
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,760
powerful because it is so
multimodal is draws from sound

638
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,400
and pattern recognition and
emotion and, and everything

639
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,000
language.
And so it's all, it's very

640
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,480
powerful when packaged together.
I love that.

641
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,440
I really do Okay, I want to talk
about perception a little bit.

642
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,480
I'm really excited about
perception because.

643
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,800
And I have a, I guess I have
maybe one example that I've

644
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,200
given before the podcast, but
I've.

645
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,640
So I for many years, I was a
Bruce Springsteen nut.

646
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,360
Yeah, many of us.
And I found really, really,

647
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,240
really that he had, as far as
I'm concerned, save my life in

648
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,920
emotional way, emotional ways
throughout the years and the

649
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,840
biggest risks and the times that
I've really had to step up to

650
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,160
the plate.
Most of my life I was I was

651
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,280
helped along by his lyrics and
his music.

652
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:40,400
And then I tried showing his to
my high school students and I

653
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,440
found that they weren't as crazy
about it as I was.

654
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:48,640
And so I, so I tried an
experiment, my own self

655
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,200
experiment as a high school
teacher, where I played the song

656
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,800
Badlands from then the
Springsteen song Badlands every

657
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,200
day for four days.
It's a, it's a, it's a school

658
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,240
week.
And I asked them to point out

659
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,600
what they noticed about the song
the first day and then the

660
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,080
second day, the third day and
the fourth day.

661
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,400
And as music became more
familiar to their ear and as

662
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,880
they became to and as the song
wasn't so strange because they,

663
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,320
you know, they're not hearing
this new rock tone, rhythm,

664
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,360
whatever it is, for the first
time, they started to notice

665
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,720
drum fills and guitar riffs and
specific lyrics that jump out at

666
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,320
them.
And the way that I like to set

667
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,080
the way that the metaphor that I
walked away from with is almost

668
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,200
like when you meet someone for
the first time, you judge them

669
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,360
initially based on the most
external aspects of them.

670
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:32,960
And then as you get to talk to
them.

671
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,640
Oh, you like music too?
I like music too.

672
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,200
You like psychology.
I like psychology.

673
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:37,960
You have a family.
I have a family All of a sudden

674
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,200
you, even though I would have,
you know, I would have judged

675
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,800
one way, as I got to know you a
little bit more, my perception

676
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,360
evolves and my and I'm able to
notice more nuance.

677
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,240
I feel like that's the way that
we actually go ahead about

678
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,440
processing things like music as
well.

679
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,280
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

680
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,920
Yeah, absolutely.
So I wish I could remember

681
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,720
exactly who the author of this
paper is, but there was AAI

682
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,560
think I want music theorist or
musicologist who talked about,

683
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,200
you know, if you're reading a
detective story, you get

684
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,680
something on the first reading,
then the second reading and the

685
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,320
third reading, right?
So if you were reading a

686
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,560
detective story, right, the
first reading, you're just like,

687
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,160
OK, I want to know who did it,
You know, like, OK, does this

688
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:16,880
all make sense?
Right.

689
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,040
But then you can still go back
and read a mystery novel again,

690
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,840
because then we're like, oh,
were there clues all along?

691
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:24,960
Like should I have seen
something?

692
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,160
And then then 30, I picked up
all these details I didn't

693
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,440
notice the first time, right?
Which is kind of like analogous

694
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,160
to your saying that like when we
see each other, there's only the

695
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,520
surface things before you get to
deeper, deeper meaning and deep

696
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,760
in common underground.
So we so someone in I'll have to

697
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,560
find the paper for you later.
But someone also said it's

698
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,560
analogous to music listenings
where you have a first hearing,

699
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,160
a second hearing and a third
hearing.

700
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,840
So maybe on the first hearing,
you're just getting very surface

701
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,600
things like how long is the
piece?

702
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,360
What's the general feel, things
like that.

703
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,360
But by second hearing, you're
starting to know where is it

704
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,480
going?
What are the details?

705
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,360
What do the lyrics really mean?
And you know, and then by the

706
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,720
third hearing, you're getting
all those smaller details like

707
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,760
where is their silence?
Where are their drum fills?

708
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,280
Where does it like pick up and
if the chorus sounds really

709
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,159
different, right?
And I think with any what

710
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:14,639
beautiful art, whether that's
writing music, whatever, you

711
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:18,320
gain a lot from multiple
hearings and I think or multiple

712
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,280
listenings, hearings, readings,
etcetera.

713
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,760
I think definitely with music,
and that's something I think is

714
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,239
very hard for a lot of people
who need to classical music.

715
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,239
It has a complexity, you know,
like the first time you hear it,

716
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:30,719
you're not going to grab
everything.

717
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,800
There's too many chords that go
so it's 1/2 hour piece.

718
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,840
How can you take that all in the
first time that you can, right?

719
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,880
But if you keep keep with it and
you keep listening to it, you

720
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,400
will start discovering new
things.

721
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,880
And there is cognitive science
work that shows that familiarity

722
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,320
increases liking.
The more familiar you are with

723
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,560
something, the more you like it.
Now there is at the same time,

724
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,639
that's with a caveat.
So there was this person who

725
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,400
designed something called the
Burline curve and they said

726
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,400
really where you have your peak
interest and something is when

727
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,040
it's optimum complexity.
So if it's too simple, you don't

728
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,800
like it because it's boring.
If it's too hard, you can't

729
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,840
understand it, right?
The optimum place where you're

730
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,120
really starting to get it is
when it's like the medium, the

731
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,800
optimum complexity.
And I think I tie that a lot to

732
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,160
these listenings to write the
first at the first time, it's

733
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:17,840
too hard to understand
everything.

734
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,280
And then if it were too simple,
you would just get bored

735
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,400
eventually.
But like, good music or good art

736
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,680
is worth a second try where you
really are starting to bring in

737
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,840
all those complexities.
So basically that phenomenon

738
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,800
that you notice with your high
school students is pretty much

739
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,600
backed up by cognitive science
as well.

740
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,000
Here we go.
I'm happy to hear that.

741
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:37,920
I'm happy to hear that.
I'm not.

742
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,280
That's so great.
That's so great.

743
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:43,840
Well, yeah.
And I noticed that too, by the

744
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,480
way, because I was listening to.
So I was listening to a Billy

745
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,280
Strings song yesterday while I
was jogging.

746
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,640
And obviously one of the
benefits of listening to some

747
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,160
great live performers as opposed
to studio variations is that

748
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,760
they tend to be a little,
especially if you're a fun

749
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,480
jammer, quote UN quote.
And you're and you don't then

750
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,440
then even though you might
recognize the bare bones of the

751
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,000
song or the structure of the
song, there's something fun

752
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,640
about the, the new, the, the,
the newness and the novelty to

753
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:07,920
the jam.
Yeah.

754
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,840
And I'm listening to a song and
it's called While I'm Waiting

755
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,280
Here and, and I was thinking, I
just, I know I was thinking I'm

756
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,760
jogging like I love this song.
It just is something about the

757
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,240
song that really hits.
And I realized it kind of sounds

758
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:22,800
like a lot of songs that I know,
but it's just being done really,

759
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,360
really like well with the cool
flair that I like.

760
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,360
And I and I was, and I was like,
oh, maybe that's why it's, you

761
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,560
know, that's why it's hitting
particularly well for me.

762
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,200
Whereas if there's a song whose
title I don't recognize and

763
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,840
source I don't recognize, and if
the name sounds a little weird

764
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,080
for what I would imagine the
song, a song titled to be

765
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,160
called, I'm far, far more
hesitant.

766
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,520
Even if I love the artist and
even if I already know that I

767
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,320
like the artist, I'm hesitant to
jump into it.

768
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,640
And I, and, and, and I don't and
I don't, I, I one of the bigger

769
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,800
struggles that I have actually,
even though I like to be open

770
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,120
minded, is that I'm, I am very
quick to judge books by a cover,

771
00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:59,960
by their covers.
And and it's really hard for me

772
00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:01,920
to get over.
I mean, that's also pretty

773
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,160
normal, right?
So there has been work in music

774
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,200
cognition about music
preferences, right?

775
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,320
And music preferences are not
only shaped by biological things

776
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,520
like your temperament, your
psych, you know, that you're

777
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,680
your natural temperament force
things, but also by like, you

778
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,080
know, your culture and your
experience, your lived

779
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:19,840
experience and things like that,
right?

780
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,520
And you know, something that we
often talk about too is how do

781
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,760
we define creativity, right?
A lot of the really creative

782
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,760
things that we deem creative are
not so completely novel that you

783
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,240
can't even recognize them,
right?

784
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:35,400
Like, you know, I think there's
this idea that creative things

785
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:40,160
are things that are useful and
novel and like recombine

786
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,240
familiar elements.
I mean, I always think about

787
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:44,200
this, like when Harry Potter
came on the scene.

788
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,560
I, I think it's hugely creative
back from when we were young,

789
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,440
right in the 90s and stuff.
But it, it does use tropes,

790
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,400
right?
Like Harry Palmiter uses, you

791
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,160
know, the boarding school, the
British boarding school, magic

792
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,560
things.
But the way that she recombined

793
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,960
them was so unique for the time,
right?

794
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,440
And so a lot of what we think is
create creative is also

795
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,200
sometimes just about recombining
them in a really cool

796
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:06,840
juxtaposition that we hadn't
seen.

797
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,560
I mean, that I think goes back
to what we're saying with jazz

798
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,440
and improv, right.
They're not pulling it from out

799
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,840
of thin air, even though it
seems to imagine playground.

800
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:16,320
Yeah, there's still a
playground.

801
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,560
There's still some structure.
They're still playing schemas

802
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,400
and licks and things like that.
Like if you were going to take I

803
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:22,600
like.
So one of the things I love is

804
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,600
Coltrane's my my Favorite Things
from Sound of Music.

805
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,320
Well, you start with a lick,
right?

806
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,920
The, you know, my favorite
things, and then he improvises

807
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,280
on it.
But like if he improvised so far

808
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,520
that it broke down and you
couldn't even hear that was my

809
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,040
favorite things anymore.
Probably not as enjoyable,

810
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:39,800
right.
The reason it's enjoyable is it

811
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,360
has that familiarity.
Like it still sounds like my

812
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,320
favorite things, but done so
well, you know, so I, I, I think

813
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,000
that's completely normal.
Like your experience, not only

814
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,600
is there interaction with, you
know, like I said that your

815
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,920
biological and your
psychological temperament, but

816
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,000
then there's also this idea that
like it's familiar enough, but

817
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,560
novel enough that it's both
creating of an interest.

818
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:02,280
I.
Have to check that out.

819
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:03,800
I have to check that out.
I might.

820
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,840
One of my favorite examples of
that is Duke Ellington

821
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,360
Nutcracker.
Yeah, Oh my God, it's so much.

822
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,360
It's so cool, yeah.
And then you're like, and you're

823
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,040
like, yeah.
What would Kaikowski think?

824
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,400
But he'd probably love it, yeah.
Totally.

825
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,040
And what I, what I've done is
and what I, what I like to do is

826
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,160
I do creative writing
assignments in my class where

827
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,680
I'll just play all, you know,
instrumental music and I have

828
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,000
the class write what pops into
their mind, what associations

829
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,320
and imagery pops into their
mind.

830
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,840
And, and what's fun is to do
comparative, I'll play the nut

831
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,560
Nutcracker and then I'll play
Duke Ellington's The Nutcracker.

832
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,000
I just see, like, does this take
you to the same place?

833
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,520
Where does this take you to and
how and how does it how does it

834
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,080
differ?
What aspects of music causes the

835
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:48,320
change?
And I try to actually get them

836
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,920
to identify.
Is it the fact that it's a brass

837
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,520
section that changes things?
Is the fact that it's a horn

838
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,800
section that creates a new world
in your head as opposed to just

839
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,760
a soft piano?
So it's really cool, the

840
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,800
cochlear implants and the
trouble in perception with music

841
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,120
as opposed to speech.
Yeah, let's talk about that.

842
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,920
Yeah.
So if you think about speech

843
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,160
versus music, music is actually
one of the richest acoustic

844
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,720
stimuli we ever hear as humans.
So what I mean by that is music

845
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,040
offer goes through a much wider
pitch range than speech.

846
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,080
Speech is in a much more narrow.
We also have wider dynamics,

847
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,800
right, like much more sound, you
know, soft and loud.

848
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,120
We have a lot more different
tambers.

849
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,640
You know, in speech, we have
female male voices and there's

850
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,480
different tambers.
But then think about how many

851
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,360
instruments there are, right?
And so that's it's, it's

852
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,560
basically music is much more
acoustically rich than speech if

853
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:42,840
you just look at them as
stimuli.

854
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,040
And for that reason, you know,
cochlear implants are amazing

855
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,320
devices, right?
And that they help people Now

856
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,960
here again.
But what happens is the cochlear

857
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:55,080
implant has like 12 electrodes
in this little implant device

858
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,400
that's supposed to stimulate the
thousands of hair cells that you

859
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,760
would normally have, right?
If in the human ear.

860
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,000
And there's no way 12 to 24
electrodes could simulate, like,

861
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,680
be as pristine as thousands and
thousands of hair cells.

862
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,720
And so that's why there's a
technological limitation for why

863
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:14,360
cochlear implants can't pick up
all the richness of things like

864
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,920
music and speech.
And so really right now, what

865
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,600
the research field is trying to
figure out is, OK, well, what

866
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,200
does music sound like to a
cochlear implant user?

867
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,040
And, you know, and it, it really
varies, you know, for kids who

868
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,440
get cochlear implants, let's say
you had a deaf child and they

869
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,440
get implanted early.
They adapt very well, again, not

870
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,640
surprisingly, because they have
very plastic brains, right?

871
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,760
They're developing.
So the brain's already going

872
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,680
undergoing a lot of structure.
It's not hard to get used to,

873
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,480
you know, to remodel itself and
get used to listening to a

874
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,520
cochlear implant.
But let's say you're an older

875
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:44,960
person getting a cochlear
implant.

876
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,000
Well, it is going to be harder
to train your brain to hear now

877
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,440
with this device instead of, you
know, your ears.

878
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,040
And so we are trying to look at
what how do music, how do

879
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,480
cochlear implant users hear
music?

880
00:41:56,720 --> 00:41:59,200
And how is that different from
something like a hearing aid?

881
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,480
You know, so the cochlear
implant actually replaces all

882
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,960
those thousands of hair cells in
your cochlea, right?

883
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,680
A hearing aid is different.
It just amplifies.

884
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,240
It's like an acoustic signal
just amplifies what you might

885
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:11,360
not hear very well.
And then that's really different

886
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,120
from someone who's deaf.
So I've learned recently that

887
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,000
how the deaf experience music is
also very unique.

888
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,680
So people are like, well, deaf
individuals can't hear music.

889
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,760
Maybe they don't hear music.
They don't perceive music the

890
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,400
way you and I would, but they
definitely hear music.

891
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,640
And the reason what they would
do it is they can feel the

892
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,400
vibrations.
For example, I've seen a lot of

893
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,400
deaf individuals hold like
balloons or things like that on

894
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:33,880
there and they can feel the
vibrations.

895
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,880
Particularly if you go to a show
like Stomp or, you know, taiko

896
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,080
drumming, something that has
really good rhythm, they can

897
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,400
feel that.
But I've also learned from my

898
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,680
colleague Annabelle Monahan that
the deaf community, you know,

899
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,080
will sign music.
And what they do is they sign

900
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,120
the music very differently for
music versus something like

901
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,720
poetry or language, like their
expression in using sign

902
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:55,120
language.
So really this idea of music in

903
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:59,000
the hard of hearing is really
fascinating because it's not

904
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,840
that they don't hear music, they
don't hear it the way we do,

905
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,800
basically.
Cool, that's amazing.

906
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:12,000
I I while you're speaking, I was
curious when you were describing

907
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,960
the issue with the cochlear
implant that the fact that you

908
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,120
know, it's using 1212 electrode
electrodes is that.

909
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,880
Yeah, 12, like 12 to 24
electrodes that are trying to

910
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,960
replace the thousands of hair
cells that you would normally

911
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,040
have.
But the but but kids seem to be

912
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,560
able to adapt faster.
Would that indicate that there's

913
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:35,920
more than just the, the, the,
the cochlear that there's more,

914
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,600
there's more to the way that we
perceive music than just that.

915
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,120
It's also about our, our brains
ability to translate that.

916
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,920
And so if you're a kid, you
might be more likely to be able

917
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,480
to do more with less.
And when you're adult or getting

918
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,120
older, your brain already has
learned at that point to not use

919
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,400
that part of your brain your.
Body, yeah, think about it this

920
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,560
way, you know so if you think
about hearing as a peripheral

921
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,400
thing so it's not just that the
the cochlear implant, there's a

922
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,960
signal your brain, your cortex
has to interpret these signals,

923
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,960
right.
And in many ways, you know, a

924
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,800
lot of kids will often be very
happy with their cochlear

925
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,000
implants have high device
satisfaction because they don't

926
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,800
really have anything to compare
it to, right?

927
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,640
If they never heard music, quote
UN quote, normally music still

928
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,480
sounds great in a code, right
but but then pretend you are an

929
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,320
adult and you were a musician
for example and then you lost

930
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,120
your hearing because you
suddenly had an illness or

931
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:29,880
something and you have to get a
cochlear implant.

932
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,760
Well, then you have all this
lived experience too, right?

933
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,360
Trying to compare what music
sounds like now with your

934
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,880
cochlear implant versus what it
used to sound like, right?

935
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,240
And that's like any sort of
prosthetic device.

936
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:43,800
If you were used to having your
arms and your legs, and now you

937
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,560
have to adjust to a device,
you're gonna be comparing it to

938
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,120
what it used to feel like,
right?

939
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,720
And so that's the music.
Expression different among among

940
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:56,600
those kids is do they learn.
What we find is that the kids, a

941
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,720
lot of the research shows that
kids have better music

942
00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:01,960
perception than adult cochlear
implant users.

943
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,640
So like not only are they better
able to hear music with their

944
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,200
devices, but you can train them
too.

945
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,360
So let's say I use musical
training as like a targeted like

946
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,760
intervention to see if I can
increase your music person.

947
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:15,840
Like, OK, you're, you're bad at
hearing melody.

948
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,360
Let me give you lots of melodies
to listen to and then test and

949
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,680
see how you do.
Kids do way better.

950
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,080
They've had much bigger
experiment like effects of

951
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,200
learning from these music
interventions compared to

952
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,120
adults.
And so we do think there is this

953
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,000
kind of plasticity, just like,
you know, how kids can learn

954
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,040
languages very easily when
they're young.

955
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,680
This is like critical period for
us to learn language well, and

956
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:37,920
it's harder when you're an
adult.

957
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,840
Not that you can't learn a new
language, but it's a lot more

958
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,120
effort, that sort of thing.
That's kind of the same thing

959
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,680
that we're seeing.
Kids can just adapt so easily

960
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,360
compared to those of us who
would have to adapt later and

961
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,240
work harder for the same same
results.

962
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:52,400
That's so interesting.
It's really cool.

963
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,160
So what?
So if I'm understanding

964
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,800
correctly, adults seem to
struggle.

965
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,040
There are people, you know,
people that have already got had

966
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,560
associations and and and
memories and expectations have a

967
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:10,080
harder time using the cochlear
implants because they already

968
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,640
have a perception of what things
should be and the are not

969
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,160
creating that and won't have
such an issue.

970
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,800
And so they are not as dependent
on.

971
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,560
So it sounds like the implants
are more of a bridge than they

972
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,680
are actual means to actually
hear processor.

973
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,240
Yeah.
And I feel, feel like we

974
00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:34,000
haven't, you know, Charles and I
have talked about this like if

975
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,080
we had to lose any sense
hearing, you know, sight,

976
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,200
whatever.
I mean, even though I'm a

977
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,640
musician, I would still want to
lose hearing simply because

978
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,600
we've gotten the farthest in
terms of perfect sensory

979
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,760
restoration, Right.
So the cochlear implants are

980
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,080
remarkable devices.
They really like change your,

981
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,680
your life in terms of being able
to not hear and then suddenly

982
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,080
you can hear.
But where we are is it's not

983
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,120
perfect yet, right?
And so there are things you can

984
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,000
do, right?
So there are technical logical

985
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,480
limitations, but cochlear
implant manufacturers are

986
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,200
constantly playing with, well,
can we change the programming?

987
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,160
How do we update the processor?
Can we do other things that will

988
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:10,520
improve it?
And you know, then there's

989
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,520
researchers like me who are
like, well, if we put you

990
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,280
through training, can we change
things?

991
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,520
But then there's also what we
call other determinants of

992
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,360
health.
So something that my lab now

993
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,200
studies with Doctor Nicole Jim,
she and I run a lab together in

994
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,600
otolaryngology is we're looking
specifically at this early

995
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,960
auditory rehabilitation period.
So what are you like right

996
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,000
before you go in for your
surgery and you get your implant

997
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,680
versus one month, three months,
six months, right?

998
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,760
And there's actually a lot of
variability.

999
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,680
So some people, let's just say
even adults, some people do

1000
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,760
great with their device.
They're like, they work very

1001
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,160
hard.
They do they go to every single

1002
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,560
follow up appointment, you know,
they spend time listening to

1003
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:49,960
sound, watching subtitles,
really working and trying to get

1004
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,480
used to their their cochlear
implant.

1005
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:54,840
But then there's others who
don't do as well.

1006
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,600
Maybe this could be a case too.
You hear it, it doesn't sound

1007
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,440
good to you.
So you feel like, oh, was this

1008
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,360
worth me going through this
painful surgery?

1009
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,920
Now I'm upset with this device.
I don't want to use it, so I

1010
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,080
take it off and I don't use it.
Well, if you don't use it,

1011
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:07,600
you're never going to get better
at it, right.

1012
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,360
So this is something that I
often counsel people is like,

1013
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,600
yes, it's a huge transition to
go through the surgery, but it's

1014
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,920
like music, you know, when we
sit down and play as musicians,

1015
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:19,720
we don't sound perfect right off
the bat.

1016
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:22,600
We sound like beginners every
time we learn a new piece.

1017
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,960
Practice makes perfect.
You have to practice to get

1018
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,720
better.
Same thing with your cochlear

1019
00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:28,280
implant.
You're going to have to practice

1020
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,960
using it to get better at it.
So if you get frustrated right

1021
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,520
off the bat and take it off and
don't use it, well, you're never

1022
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,880
going to get better, right?
And so we're really starting to

1023
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,320
learn about like, how can we
counsel patients to better set

1024
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,120
up expectations?
And normally that maybe we will

1025
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,360
have predictors of like we'll,
we'll maybe we'll have

1026
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,680
eventually like these kind of
like, you know how when you take

1027
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,360
your kid to the doctor and they
have growth curves.

1028
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,880
So you can be like, OK, your kid
is on track to be 6 foot 2 and

1029
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,080
then a percentile, right?
We don't have any sort of those

1030
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,920
kind of developmental curves for
cochlear implant users.

1031
00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:02,280
We can't say like, OK, you're on
track to be a really good

1032
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,560
performer or you're on track and
you're not doing as well as you

1033
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,080
should be at this, this
rehabilitation, Mark, we need to

1034
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,640
intervene and do better, right?
So that's the kind of work that

1035
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,560
our lab is doing now.
Like imagine if we could have

1036
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,320
that analogous, you know, growth
curve and we could tell

1037
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,200
patients, OK, I can see you're
not doing as well as you need to

1038
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,680
right now at the one month mark.
Let's intervene now so that

1039
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,400
you'll do better at the three or
six months.

1040
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,400
And then or someone's doing
really I'd be like, you're doing

1041
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:25,320
great.
You know, I think you're

1042
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,520
starting to hit the limit of
what we can expect right now

1043
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:28,640
with the cochlear implant,
right?

1044
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,800
These are all things that would
help be help patients,

1045
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,000
especially if you think it's a
huge decision to get a cochlear

1046
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,600
implant.
In fact, there's still a divide.

1047
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,920
There are, you know, the deaf,
deaf community who don't ever

1048
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,520
want to use cochlear implants
that just want to remain sign

1049
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,520
language only, which is, you
know, totally.

1050
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,440
But then there's the people who
get cochlear implants.

1051
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,640
So there's even like a culture
difference between these two

1052
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,000
groups.
And so our lab is is trying to

1053
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,960
start navigating some of these
issues.

1054
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,280
I would be, I'd be really
curious and if you haven't done

1055
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,320
it, I would be curious to look
into this, if what the

1056
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:07,080
difference as far as adjusting
would be to cochlear impact,

1057
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,920
cochlear patients who have a
history of playing music as

1058
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:12,080
opposed to those who.
Don't.

1059
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,160
Yeah.
And unfortunately, there haven't

1060
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,000
been enough yet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1061
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:18,840
That's a problem with a small
pool like this, right?

1062
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,840
Emerging science.
Yeah, it's a small subject pool.

1063
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,200
I think the first cochlear
implant was done at UCSF and I

1064
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,400
want to say it wasn't even that
long ago, like 1950s, sixties,

1065
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:30,800
something like that.
I have to look it up.

1066
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,080
It's not it hasn't been a new
technology.

1067
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,560
It was, but one of the first
ones was done here on the West

1068
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:37,840
Coast.
And so, so far, we don't even

1069
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,840
have enough data yet.
I I realized that I mean, it's.

1070
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:42,960
Really good.
Because I mean, the way that

1071
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:44,960
you're describing, it almost
sounds like you have to kind of

1072
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,680
prep your brain for.
And if and if your brain is

1073
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,960
already plastic from playing
different types of music, or

1074
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:51,720
playing different types of
instruments, or doing things

1075
00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:55,040
along the way, then it might be
quicker to adapt to such a YEAH

1076
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:56,480
transition.
Yeah.

1077
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,720
And you know something I have.
So I've given a whole keynote to

1078
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:03,200
the Hearing Loss Association of
America because we were giving

1079
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,520
this expert panel in 2023.
It's called The Joy of Music.

1080
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:09,000
And it was for all these
individuals with hearing loss

1081
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,160
and as part of the expert panel,
these these people with hearing

1082
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,480
less could come up and ask
specific questions, right?

1083
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,560
So I would get questions like I
used to be in a choir.

1084
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,520
I used to be in a a band before
I got the surgery or my hearing

1085
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,080
aid.
And now everything sounds awful.

1086
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,480
What should I do?
And I was like, well, you know,

1087
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,320
you kind of have to go back and
practice.

1088
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,320
You know, one thing I recommend
is practice the way we would

1089
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,240
have as beginner, you know,
isolate, you know, practice by

1090
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:34,240
yourself first.
Don't go straight back to the

1091
00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:35,800
group.
That's a really complex acoustic

1092
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,600
situation.
Just practice by yourself.

1093
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:42,160
Use tools right Metro gnomes
recording yourself teachers

1094
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:43,840
right to help you get as you
adjust.

1095
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,960
You can't just expect that you
will be at the top of your game

1096
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,000
right away.
And, you know, I think people

1097
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:53,120
think that musicians are, are
just naturally good and

1098
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,200
naturally talented at music.
No, the fact is we work really

1099
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,280
hard.
Musicians spend like for me,

1100
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,840
when I was a performer, I spent
a lot of, I never relied on my

1101
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,440
own ears actually.
Like, because for example, when

1102
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,880
I'm playing up at the piano,
what I hear is really different

1103
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,200
from what they hear at the back
of the concert hall, right?

1104
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,520
Because of reverb and, and
acoustics.

1105
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,240
And so I always had teachers or
recorders to help me.

1106
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:18,800
We didn't rely on these.
And I spent a lot of time like

1107
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,240
with really complex pieces.
No, you have to sit there

1108
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,760
spending a lot of time isolating
the lyrics, isolating the sound,

1109
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,880
right hand only, left hand only,
rhythm only, melody only, right.

1110
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,440
Like we spend a lot of time
taking a very complex thing and

1111
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,600
putting it together.
And so basically at this hearing

1112
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,000
loss Association of America
talk, I was like, OK, maybe we

1113
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,880
can learn from the kind of
practice techniques that

1114
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,680
musicians use to get used to
using our cochlear implant, You

1115
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,400
know, And you know, it's not
perfect, but it's like, I don't

1116
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,440
think people just like I used to
think in prov was like this

1117
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:53,920
magical thing that just comes
out of nowhere.

1118
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,560
People think when I sit down at
the piano, that's this magical

1119
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,440
thing.
It's not though, it's hard work,

1120
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,360
right?
It's hours and hours and years

1121
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,840
and years of hard work.
And I'm sure you've read about

1122
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,160
it, right?
This the old adage that 10,000

1123
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:06,640
hours to become an expert,
right?

1124
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,600
Like it's lots of practice.
It's not it doesn't come

1125
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,040
naturally.
And then even an experienced

1126
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,520
pianist like me, when I learn a
new piece and back to being a

1127
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,000
beginner again, right?
It's like, all right, I have to

1128
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,520
go super slow and I'm going to
go one note at a time.

1129
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:22,240
I'm going to listen to the I
don't know what I'm doing.

1130
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:23,800
I have to start all over again,
right?

1131
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,320
And I think that's actually
humbling, but good to remember

1132
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,480
right, that that's just the
experience of doing art.

1133
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:32,560
We also.
Yeah, and then eventually you

1134
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,200
come to cherish that process.
And I know that, you know that

1135
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,160
I've, I've started to, in the
last bunch of years, I've had a

1136
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,560
lot of firsts to my life, you
know, getting married, first

1137
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:46,600
time having a kid, first, first,
first guitar lesson, first open

1138
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,840
mic.
And every single time I do all

1139
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,920
these First things, first
podcast, I, you know, I, I, I

1140
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:56,880
have an enormous sense of fear,
but I've come to, I've come to

1141
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,800
appreciate the process and, and
I've found that people are so

1142
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,520
forgiving and, and saying it's
good that you're starting this

1143
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:05,880
from the beginning.
And it, and, you know, and it's

1144
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,160
really something that's more
commendable than it is that

1145
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,040
everyone expects you to be a
expert at anything you do the

1146
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,040
first time you pick it up.
And it's, you know, so I think

1147
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,280
that's something in general that
if people in, if anyone

1148
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,640
listening and people in general
want to grow and want to advance

1149
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,640
to embrace the this starting
something beginning and be OK

1150
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,360
with with being a beginner and
then, you know, get better.

1151
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:27,880
Absolutely.
You know, that's something that

1152
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,280
I hear all the time, right?
As someone who researches the

1153
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,320
arts and music and the brain and
they're, and I very much

1154
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,400
advocate everyone should do the
arts and play every day, right?

1155
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,440
And they're like, but I suck at
the arts.

1156
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,480
I have no talent whatsoever.
I'm like, it's not about talent,

1157
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,120
it's about doing it anyway.
So like for me, I mean, OK, I'm,

1158
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,840
I'm, I'm a musical expert, but
when I sit down and like

1159
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,920
drawing, I draw like a musician.
I mean, I don't, it doesn't come

1160
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,280
out good.
I'm back to coloring because I'm

1161
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:57,760
learn trying to learn color
theory and shading and things

1162
00:54:57,760 --> 00:54:59,560
like that.
And that's good for me, right?

1163
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,840
Like, I, I mean, how boring
would life be if we were only

1164
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,840
doing the things we're good at?
I personally think it's good for

1165
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,720
our ourselves and our brains to
try new things that are scary.

1166
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,600
But everyone, no one, it's, it's
kind of a false belief to think

1167
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:14,760
that you would be good at
something the first time you,

1168
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:16,840
you do it right.
And I know that that's like a, a

1169
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,040
culture of that's very like goal
oriented.

1170
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,040
But if you look at the arts as a
process, the process is being

1171
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:24,520
uncomfortable and trying new
things.

1172
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,080
And it is good for your brain
because.

1173
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,920
Yeah, the first time I learn a
new language, I'm going to

1174
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,760
struggle.
But that struggle is part of why

1175
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,840
it helps my brain, you know?
So the struggle is inherent to

1176
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,120
it.
And that's, there's the beauty

1177
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,160
of the struggle that is actually
good for you.

1178
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,480
You know, I mean, not so hard
that you feel really

1179
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,360
demotivated.
But I guess I would encourage

1180
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,560
anyone who's listening that it's
always OK to try and make

1181
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:48,080
mistakes.
And you know, here's the thing

1182
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:49,400
too.
That's something I learned from

1183
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,080
improv.
I was, you know, I, as I told

1184
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,160
you, I'm a classical pianist,
and so I'm not used to

1185
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:55,920
improvising.
But every now and then Charles

1186
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:57,600
would be like, come on, just
come play with me.

1187
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,560
And I was like, I don't like it.
What if I make a mistake, you

1188
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:02,400
know?
And he'd be like, so make a

1189
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,640
mistake and then do it again and
then do it again and then do it

1190
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,160
again.
And it's no longer a mistake,

1191
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:08,320
right?
And that's something my husband

1192
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,840
also echoes, right?
The idea of improv is it just

1193
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,680
kind of take it as it comes.
There are no mistakes.

1194
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:15,000
You did it.
You did it again.

1195
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,040
Just do it again deliberately
until it gives you your next

1196
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,280
idea, right?
And I think that's a very

1197
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,600
beautiful philosophy, right,
that there are no mistakes.

1198
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,960
You just try and you try again.
And you know, I think, and maybe

1199
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,160
this is a nice leading to my my
study with the kids is like, you

1200
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,320
know, we watch kids who are
really creative.

1201
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,200
I don't know about your kids.
My kids love doing like it

1202
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,200
doesn't matter that he doesn't
know how to bake or be an

1203
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:39,720
architect or guard and he's
going to do it anyways.

1204
00:56:39,720 --> 00:56:42,320
And he finds it fun, right?
And we noticed that kids are

1205
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,880
just kind of very creative in a
way that's different from

1206
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:46,960
adults, right?
Like obviously adult has lived

1207
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,640
experiences and voice and domain
knowledge, right?

1208
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,080
Like if you're at Esperanza
Spalding, you've been doing

1209
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,800
music for a long time.
So you obviously are drawing on

1210
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,000
that where as a kid who's like,
well, I'm just going to go bang

1211
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:58,840
on the piano.
They don't have that, but

1212
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,000
they're still like willing to
try and be creative, right?

1213
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,120
So in one one of our studies
that just came out last year in

1214
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,280
Scientific Reports, we were
like, well, yeah, we really want

1215
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,960
to know what happens when kids
are being musically creative,

1216
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:11,800
right?
So we took these elementary age

1217
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:15,800
kids, 7 to 9 year olds and we
had them do this paradigm where

1218
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,240
they either played a scale for
the control.

1219
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,440
So they they play the five black
note keys of the keyboard just

1220
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,280
da da, da da da da da da, da, da
da.

1221
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,960
Like very wrote over and over
again, or we had them improvised

1222
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,680
melodies, like play them now in
whatever order you want and

1223
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:33,920
you're improvising.
And we made it sound really cool

1224
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,240
because we gave them a backtrack
that went with all it.

1225
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:38,760
So as long as they're playing
the black note keys, they always

1226
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,520
sound good.
It's like impossible to make a

1227
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,520
mistake.
It then sounds really musical.

1228
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:44,080
There's like a whole backtrack
to it.

1229
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:46,680
So the only difference is, you
know, play same tempo, same

1230
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:49,400
speed, everything, but either
you're playing a scale or you're

1231
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,160
making up, moving your fingers
and making up melodies.

1232
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,040
You know, you just put those in
whatever order.

1233
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,280
And what we found is that kids
improvisation and is again, a

1234
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:02,240
really cool distinct activity
for kids that you have, you

1235
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,840
know, it doesn't look the same
as when the control condition.

1236
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:07,520
And really when you're
improvising for them, it's a lot

1237
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,280
about deactivating parts of
their brain.

1238
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:12,840
So kids would deactivate these
structures known as like the

1239
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,440
singular cortex, the angular
gyres, precanious.

1240
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,280
And all of those structures are
sensory hubs that are actually

1241
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:22,200
implicated in adult creativity.
So it's like when we look at

1242
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:24,960
kids and they're being creative,
they're using some of the same

1243
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,240
structures that you would later
as adults.

1244
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:29,960
So it's almost like you have the
roots, the beginning roots of

1245
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,160
this like neuro creativity
network, right?

1246
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,640
But what was also really cool is
that improvising, we found that

1247
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,680
there was more connections
between reward areas of the

1248
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:43,080
brain when they were improvising
compared to not doing like the

1249
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:45,360
scale.
Now, I will caveat that, say it

1250
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:48,120
wasn't all positive.
So for example, we found that

1251
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,240
the amygdala deactivates during
improv.

1252
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,560
Well, that's good.
The amygdala often deactivates

1253
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:54,560
for good things like, you know,
when the fight or flight is

1254
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,440
over, we're good, right?
But then we also saw that like

1255
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,200
the nucleus accumbens and some
other areas deactivated, which

1256
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,920
is not necessarily a positive
valence thing.

1257
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,920
So it's almost like reward
structures are used for improv,

1258
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:09,240
but it has kind of a mixed
emotional content.

1259
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,840
It's not just positive, it's
positive and negative.

1260
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,360
And so I thought about that for
a while.

1261
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:15,040
I'm like, why would there be
mixed?

1262
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,440
Why isn't just purely rewarding?
Well, for one, I was sticking

1263
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,680
kids in a scanner.
That's kind of an odd thing.

1264
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,000
You know, putting kids in a
scanner was probably a little

1265
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:25,720
scary to them.
They we have their parents

1266
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:27,160
nearby, but it's a strange
thing.

1267
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:29,760
But then I also thought about
him, like maybe it shouldn't be

1268
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,520
purely positive.
I mean, music for many of us,

1269
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:34,520
like we listen to music that's
sad, right?

1270
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:38,200
I often music the music that's
sad or angry or negative, right?

1271
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,480
And the idea is that music is a
safe place to process all those

1272
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:43,760
emotions, right.
So maybe the whole point isn't

1273
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:45,800
that it should just be all
positive reward.

1274
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:47,640
It could be positive and
negative reward, right?

1275
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,680
But either way, we really liked
this experience because it kind

1276
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:52,920
of gets to as we were talking
about the beginner mind, like

1277
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,400
what's happening when you're a
true beginner, right?

1278
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:57,680
Because many of these kids had
never even seen a keyboard

1279
00:59:57,680 --> 00:59:59,560
before.
I sat down and be like, OK,

1280
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:01,640
curve your fingers, put your
hands here.

1281
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,720
Now we're going to have you do
this in the scanner, you know,

1282
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:05,880
and it was amazing.
They weren't scared.

1283
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,520
They did it right.
So whenever someone tells me,

1284
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,080
you know, we, we were kind of
catchling like the neural

1285
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:12,920
correlates of the, the beginner
mind.

1286
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:14,560
And I, I don't know if you've
ever heard this term, but the

1287
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:17,040
beginner's mind is something
that comes from meditation,

1288
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:19,040
right?
So in meditation, they are

1289
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:21,200
saying like, you know, the
expert has, is kind of

1290
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:22,760
solidified in their way of
thinking.

1291
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:26,320
But in the beginner's mind, it's
very open to experience.

1292
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:27,240
It's very plastic.
It's.

1293
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,120
Very like whatever happens
happens, you're not set in your

1294
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,160
ways, right?
And so I kind of think of this

1295
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:34,640
as like this was a beautiful
illustration of the beginner

1296
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:36,360
minds.
You know, kids creativity does

1297
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:39,920
have that raw, raw kind of
quality to it.

1298
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,880
It's very different from adult
creativity, but they're still

1299
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,960
able to be a creative.
And you know, if, if being

1300
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,680
creative, like improvising is
rewarding, well, maybe that's

1301
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:50,920
why kids are so drawn to be
creative, right?

1302
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:52,520
They they don't have a lived
experience.

1303
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:53,640
They aren't comparing it to
anything.

1304
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:54,920
So they might as well do it,
right?

1305
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:56,440
They might as well be creative,
right.

1306
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:59,080
So that was a study that we did
last year.

1307
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,520
Now, of course, there's a huge
difference between like

1308
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,920
untrained kids who have never
played piano and jazz experts,

1309
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:06,080
right?
So that kind of shows you

1310
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:09,040
already in our field how there's
a lot of like points to fill in

1311
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:11,360
in between.
But it was really cool because I

1312
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,000
think that study was, at least
to my knowledge, the first like

1313
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,640
neuroimaging experiment to look
at creativity, so.

1314
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,880
It's really, I wanted to just
ask one question just on that

1315
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:25,520
whole, the whole idea was when
you mentioned that it was not

1316
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:30,840
all positive responses.
Yeah, I want to be clear.

1317
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:34,200
Does that mean that they didn't
only feel good things or does

1318
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,400
that mean that not only good
things are happening to the

1319
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:37,240
brain?
I'm not.

1320
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,520
I just wanted.
To Yeah, So what I mean more

1321
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:41,680
it's a little bit more specific
than that, right.

1322
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,680
So whenever we talk about
reward, we talk about valence,

1323
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:46,920
valence being positive or
negative, right.

1324
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:51,280
So what we saw specifically is
that the amygdala deactivates

1325
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:53,560
and that when the amygdala
deactivates, if you look at all

1326
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,320
the literature that's associated
with positive valence, that's a

1327
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:58,160
that's a positive thing.
And when it's.

1328
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,360
Activated, we're fearful.
We tend to be like fearful or

1329
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:01,880
cautious.
Yeah, yeah, your amygdala is

1330
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,200
really, really active if you're
running away from a lion, for

1331
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,520
example.
And so we I think there was

1332
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:10,560
remember the movie, I don't know
if you saw free solo that this

1333
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,480
guy that he was on Netflix, Alex
something he climbed like the

1334
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:15,600
high.
He's a he's a climber.

1335
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,480
And and and they found and they
stuck him in one of those

1336
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:20,160
scanners and they found that his
amygda.

1337
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:23,000
I don't think it was not not
working, but it was not working

1338
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,720
to the full capacity.
And so he's he had a, you know,

1339
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:29,400
he had a very muted sense.
Yeah, very philosophical sense

1340
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:33,120
of like if I die, I die be had a
very muted sense of this kind of

1341
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:34,840
internal fight or flight
instinct.

1342
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:38,760
That he said and you know, that
same kind of result has been

1343
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:41,360
seen with expert in like expert
meditators.

1344
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,040
So there was a study, I think of
Buddhist monks, I'll have to

1345
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:45,960
look this up.
But there was a study of monks

1346
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:49,400
who are expert meditators and
they noticed when they meditate

1347
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:52,520
in the scanner, they can
literally calm down their dad.

1348
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,280
Like they have the ability to
like just kind of, and the,

1349
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,280
these are like deep structures
in the brain that are kind of

1350
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:01,760
like, like I said, it's kind of
a primal thing when the amygdala

1351
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:03,680
activated because he's like,
you're scared, you can't, you

1352
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:07,080
know, but these people can with
their thoughts actually bring it

1353
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,440
down.
And so when I say these reward

1354
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:12,280
areas, So what we saw was
amygdala caudate and nucleus

1355
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:16,160
accumbens, Those are all reward
areas of the brain, but only the

1356
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:18,520
amygdala deactivating is
considered positive.

1357
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,280
When the caudate and the nucleus
accumbens deactivate, that's

1358
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:22,760
actually a little bit negative.
So so.

1359
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:24,760
What happens then?
What's the consequence of that

1360
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:27,760
emotion?
I guess it was an emotional

1361
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:28,840
thing or what?
What's the context?

1362
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:30,040
Yeah, it's usually an emotional
thing.

1363
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,960
So for example, the caudate
deactivates when you miss a

1364
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:34,400
reward.
So like, let's say you were

1365
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:36,880
doing a prediction thing and you
were like trying to get a reward

1366
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,000
or a treat or something, it
would deactivate and then the

1367
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:40,880
nucleus.
Yeah.

1368
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,400
And the nucleus accumbens, it
deactivates when you're trying

1369
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,760
to avoid harm or when you just
don't feel a lot musically or

1370
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,440
when you're depressed, Right.
So this is what I mean is like

1371
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,600
the caudate and the nucleus
accumbens deactivating is not

1372
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:55,880
necessarily a good thing.
Only the nygdala deactivate is a

1373
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,680
positive valence.
So this makes me feel like, OK,

1374
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,760
it's mixed.
There's some positives that come

1375
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:02,400
negative.
And I was like, but that's

1376
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:04,240
really interesting.
I mean, First off, it is a

1377
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,000
really complex task, right?
You're trying to do this like

1378
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,280
cognitive motoric thing and the
scanner is really loud and I'm

1379
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:13,160
my mom's out there and I'm
trying to, maybe it's just too

1380
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:14,440
hard.
It's not natural, right?

1381
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:16,680
It's not like a little kid being
with mommy and daddy.

1382
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,360
It's not purely positive, right?
But then like I said, I think

1383
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:22,840
there's this also this idea that
music can also be a safe place

1384
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,600
to experience the whole gamut of
emotion, right?

1385
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,200
I don't just play music that's
positive.

1386
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:32,080
Sometimes I watch a movie or
play music that's sad on

1387
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:35,640
purpose, and I like that whole
spectrum of complexity and

1388
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:37,600
emotions, right?
So it's not just that has to be

1389
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:39,240
all positive.
So that's kind of the

1390
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:42,280
clarification.
And also to clarify, just to

1391
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:45,320
build on that idea.
And you said that when they're

1392
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:47,880
improvising, it's against a
backdrop of music.

1393
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:50,240
That makes that that makes
sense, right?

1394
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:51,800
Yeah, that makes them sound
good, Yeah.

1395
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:54,600
Yeah.
So I'm so I wonder if the, if

1396
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:57,360
that, if the those quote UN
quote negative experiences that

1397
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:01,600
they had was because, and I, I
did a podcast episode with the

1398
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:04,880
gentleman Kurt Ellenberger,
who's a professor of music and

1399
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,080
jazz.
And one thing they said was that

1400
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:10,120
our brains automatically can
detect what's right or wrong

1401
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:12,120
about music.
And like, if you like, we

1402
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:14,960
subconsciously can just fill in
a musical note.

1403
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:18,200
Just intuitive.
I'm curious that if the kids are

1404
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:21,400
given a backdrop of music that
makes sense and they're given

1405
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:23,800
these 5 keys that could all be,
you know, played within that

1406
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,040
with their brains are detecting
like while they're improvising

1407
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:28,680
or while they're just messing
around or tinkering.

1408
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:31,200
Hey, they didn't, they didn't
belong where it's supposed to

1409
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:32,880
go.
And so it's picking up on that.

1410
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:34,800
Yeah.
Well, so the whole thing is it

1411
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:37,040
shouldn't pick up that right.
Like the the whole point of us

1412
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:40,440
giving the music and the
backdrop we gave them is so that

1413
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:43,000
it will never sound bad.
As long as you play the notes we

1414
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:44,800
gave you, it'll sound good.
So actually.

1415
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:46,520
There's no wrong note you.
Mean, yeah.

1416
01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:48,280
So there is no wrong note.
It's not pause.

1417
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,400
Like I can even send you the
files later to listen to, but

1418
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:52,720
it's like, there's no wrong
note.

1419
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:56,840
Like if you play the flag black
notes and we've put all 5 black

1420
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:59,160
note harmonies, there's
literally no mistake you can

1421
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:00,840
make.
If you just played the same note

1422
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:02,680
over and over again, it would
sound good.

1423
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:06,520
Expectations meant then maybe
like what you would be expecting

1424
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,960
the next.
I know that when I'm oodling on

1425
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:15,000
my guitar where I, I, I start to
play like a little riff and I

1426
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:18,160
don't, and if I and I don't know
my guitar fret board well enough

1427
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:21,600
to know where that next sound
that I want to make will come

1428
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:24,120
from, right.
I have a general idea, you know,

1429
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:26,600
you know, lower down is a little
higher and higher up is a little

1430
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,440
deeper, but I don't really know.
And so like I'm, I'm noodling,

1431
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:32,040
I'm playing and then I hear like
a date there and I, oh, shoot,

1432
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:35,080
that was totally wrong.
I was expecting something else

1433
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:37,360
and, and I didn't know where to
find it.

1434
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:40,840
And so like you, you're saying
that there's that it's

1435
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:43,240
objectively can't be wrong, but
I'm curious if they're trying to

1436
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:45,680
follow their own kind of pattern
maybe and.

1437
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:47,200
Maybe.
Not letting themselves down in

1438
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,480
that kind of sense.
Yeah, so while they literally

1439
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,560
can't make a mistake, that
doesn't mean they don't have

1440
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:54,080
their own anxiety about trying
to figure out what notes should

1441
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:55,760
go right.
Like, so I've done this myself

1442
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:59,240
too, and I'm a pianist and I'm
used to be using my 5 notes and

1443
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:00,960
I'm like, I don't know which one
I'm going to move.

1444
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:02,680
So there is a little bit of
things like which finger should

1445
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:06,120
I move next and what happens?
And then what do I do if I don't

1446
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:08,800
know what to do after that note?
So there is that little bit of a

1447
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:10,440
thought process, at least even
for me.

1448
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:12,800
So it's entirely possible that,
well, they couldn't make a

1449
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:14,040
mistake.
That doesn't mean they didn't

1450
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:16,560
have some anxiety about trying
to figure out what they should

1451
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:19,200
do next, you know, and that
might have been why there was a

1452
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:21,760
little bit of negative.
Or even expectations of what

1453
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:23,720
they want the next sound to
sound like, and maybe they

1454
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:25,920
weren't meeting that.
Yeah, it's like, I know what I

1455
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:28,040
want it to sound like, but I'm
such a beginner.

1456
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:30,240
Oh, I hit something that wasn't
what I wanted, you know,

1457
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:32,320
entirely possible.
And, you know, I didn't really

1458
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:34,800
do interviews or anything to
figure out what they were

1459
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:36,360
feeling when they were doing
this.

1460
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:39,480
But that would also be something
that, yeah, we could get more.

1461
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,360
And, like, were you?
Because they didn't say they

1462
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:42,960
were scared.
Everyone thought it was really

1463
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:45,960
cool to be in this experiment.
They felt like they were helping

1464
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:48,120
science.
You know, no one was scared per

1465
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:50,320
SE, but I didn't ask them, Well,
what was it like when you're

1466
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,680
improvising versus, you know, I
didn't get into that little

1467
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:54,560
detail.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1468
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:59,400
Because and you know something
and a key theme for a lot and I

1469
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:02,520
had to learn this really because
I thought I was going crazy, you

1470
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:06,400
know, was that with a lot of
great improv bands is that not

1471
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:08,160
every time that they play is
going to sound good.

1472
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,800
Days, you know, it's like.
I don't know why I don't work

1473
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:14,200
song.
And I was like, dude, that song

1474
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:15,440
sucks.
Of course you don't like it.

1475
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:16,640
They didn't play love that
night.

1476
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:18,840
I'm like, oh, I thought I was
nuts the whole time.

1477
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:21,279
You know, I didn't realize.
You have to look at everyone's

1478
01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:23,200
output.
We always used to joke in

1479
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:25,040
Conservatory.
Even Beethoven had to learn how

1480
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:27,439
to be Beethoven.
His early Beethoven doesn't

1481
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,760
sound like his, you know, Ode to
Joy, like Ninth Symphony, right?

1482
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:35,600
Like we have everyone who's a
musician goes through their own

1483
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:38,560
period of development.
So if you're a performer, some

1484
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:40,240
days are good, some days are
bad.

1485
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:43,479
In fact, another thing that I'm
doing with the NEA Research lab

1486
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:46,319
is I'm interviewing these NEA
jazz masters.

1487
01:08:46,319 --> 01:08:49,479
So these are, it's the largest
of the highest award our country

1488
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,000
gives towards jazz musicians.
So we're talking about really

1489
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,760
amazing.
And I asked them about their

1490
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:57,319
creative process and I asked
them, hey, do you still have bad

1491
01:08:57,319 --> 01:08:59,160
days?
Do you ever have performance

1492
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:01,240
anxiety still?
And many of them are like, you

1493
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:03,840
know what, I'm too old.
I don't I don't have that kind

1494
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,760
of performance anxiety anymore,
but they of course, they say

1495
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,120
some days are bad.
Some days you're just not going

1496
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:12,560
to play as well as other days.
And when everything aligns

1497
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:14,960
nicely, that's an amazing
performance.

1498
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:17,800
But you can't always control
that, you know, just like I'm

1499
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,359
sure you have Daisy.
It's like going to the gym or or

1500
01:09:20,359 --> 01:09:22,359
teaching, right?
Some days feel like it's going

1501
01:09:22,359 --> 01:09:24,200
really nicely.
It flows easily.

1502
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:27,560
You feel like on top of your
work and other days not so much.

1503
01:09:29,319 --> 01:09:32,040
I think that happens even to
great musicians too, you know,

1504
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:35,240
it's just that we don't always
see their worst days.

1505
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:37,680
And here's the thing, too.
Let's say you are a Coltrane.

1506
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:40,399
Even your bad day probably
sounds pretty good, you know,

1507
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:43,640
compared to what it could be.
So I think that that's something

1508
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:47,800
I've learned too, is that expert
artists also know how to, you

1509
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:50,960
know, how how to do things in a
way that make it work towards

1510
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,120
their favor, right?
Like I said, if they did have a

1511
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:56,120
bad day and they're making a ton
of steaks, maybe they just keep

1512
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:58,200
using those mistakes.
And so you don't even notice it

1513
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:00,240
was a mistake.
You notice something's a little

1514
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:03,320
off, but they used it cook, you
know, in an impressive enough

1515
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:04,960
way that other people wouldn't
notice.

1516
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:07,720
Or I used to do ballet when I
was in high school and I would

1517
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:10,320
notice the really senior
dancers, they could fall, make

1518
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:12,040
falling look really graceful,
right?

1519
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:15,920
So I think it's not so much that
they don't have bad days, that

1520
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:18,960
people don't fall as though they
know how to cover, recover and

1521
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:22,160
get back up and use it somehow
and recover quickly.

1522
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:25,080
I mean, when I played piano, I
would make mistakes all the

1523
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:27,000
time.
My, my, my.

1524
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:30,200
I guess the thing that would
always make ruin my performance

1525
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:32,120
is I would have memory slips.
Like, all of a sudden I'm

1526
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:33,640
playing and I forget what I'm
supposed to do.

1527
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:35,960
But the older I got and
realizing it was going to

1528
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:38,080
happen, I just learned to
recover really quickly.

1529
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:40,640
So if you don't know the music
as well as I do, you wouldn't

1530
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:42,400
know that I had a memory slip,
you know?

1531
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:44,560
But I know that wasn't a good
performance, right?

1532
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:46,120
Oh, yeah.
I think that's the difference

1533
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:48,880
between domain expertise.
Like, OK, that wasn't great, but

1534
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:51,600
I covered well enough, you know,
whereas the kids like, I don't

1535
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:54,000
even know if what I'm hitting
next is going to be what I think

1536
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:55,600
it is.
So this, that's a very different

1537
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:57,520
kind of artistic experience.
Really cool.

1538
01:10:57,520 --> 01:11:00,360
And it's super different, I'm
sure, as far as psychology and

1539
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:02,680
their and their brain and their
brain development goes.

1540
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:04,000
Too.
Yeah, absolutely.

1541
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:05,840
I think there's, you know,
artists will.

1542
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:08,280
If you think about artists now
as adults, they're they're

1543
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:10,480
expressing their own artistic
voice, right.

1544
01:11:10,480 --> 01:11:13,720
You can't help but have a lived
experience and inject your own

1545
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,560
experience and your culture and
your artistic voice into your

1546
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:18,840
expression.
But kids don't have that level

1547
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:20,840
of domain.
They don't have years and years

1548
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:22,960
of experience.
They're just doing it in a very

1549
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:25,320
raw, unfiltered way that's
different from what adults do.

1550
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:28,360
Yeah, it's really cool.
It's really, really awesome.

1551
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:31,120
I, I love, I love that you're
doing this research and I love

1552
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:35,920
that I, I love that it's that
because this is something that

1553
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:38,200
could really go, this could be
something that could really

1554
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:41,960
change education and development
and the way that we even

1555
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:46,080
perceive what learning is and
what self-expression is.

1556
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:50,240
And I think it's really, really
crucial to be able to do this

1557
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:53,160
kind of research and really be,
you know, scientific and fun and

1558
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:55,840
serious about fun and serious
about in the same, in the same

1559
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:56,280
breath.
Yeah.

1560
01:11:56,920 --> 01:11:59,200
Well.
Yeah, I think something we have

1561
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:01,400
felt as scientists is obviously
I'm preaching to the choir.

1562
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,560
I believe the arts are amazing
but in abundant themselves,

1563
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:06,000
right.
But we, you know, as a teacher

1564
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:09,040
in public school systems, the
arts are being defunded in many

1565
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:11,120
education systems across the
country.

1566
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:15,320
And I think what we hope is that
by having all this rigorous

1567
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:19,880
scientific research, we show why
the arts are important and how

1568
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:21,480
they can be leveraged to help
us.

1569
01:12:21,480 --> 01:12:23,440
Right.
Like, you know, I think if all

1570
01:12:23,440 --> 01:12:25,640
of us could figure out a way to
be more creative, wouldn't that

1571
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:26,880
be great?
You know, that's good for

1572
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:28,000
humanity.
I mean, if you think about

1573
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:31,760
creativity being the bedrock of
innovation and, you know,

1574
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:34,120
development and things like
that, then everyone wants to be

1575
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:36,120
more creative.
Whether you're a Fortune 500

1576
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:39,480
company or teachers or, you
know, musicians, everyone wants

1577
01:12:39,480 --> 01:12:41,440
to be more creative.
So we think at this science is

1578
01:12:41,440 --> 01:12:44,160
trying to support that.
But moreover, showing like, OK,

1579
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:47,160
but when you are being creative,
it's a very unique brain

1580
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:49,040
pattern.
It's good for you to do these

1581
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:52,440
things, be doing creative
artistic tasks is good for the

1582
01:12:52,440 --> 01:12:55,320
longevity of your brain, you
know, and that you will continue

1583
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:58,360
to develop if you keep doing
these things versus, you know,

1584
01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:02,320
slipping into cognitive and
neurodegenerative decline,

1585
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:03,880
right?
Like it's one maybe that we can

1586
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:06,080
maybe combat some of the normal
things that would happen.

1587
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:09,400
So I think many of us hope that
this science helps with

1588
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:13,400
advocacy, that it helps show how
important the arts are by

1589
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:15,880
themselves, but also because of
what we can do for us.

1590
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:17,680
Yeah, maybe we got to keep on
having these type of

1591
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:21,200
conversations.
I know, I know.

1592
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:25,400
And I want to kind of end our.
This has been so much fun.

1593
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:30,520
I want to end our conversation
talking about a topic you just

1594
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:35,160
brought up, aging, longevity.
And specifically I am curious

1595
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:36,440
too, and I don't know if you do
any of this.

1596
01:13:36,440 --> 01:13:37,920
I want to talk about dementia
for sure.

1597
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:39,440
Yeah.
You've done any kind of research

1598
01:13:39,440 --> 01:13:41,840
as far as stroke victims go
because?

1599
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:45,520
I myself have not, but I I can
tell you about some of the

1600
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:47,640
literature, but go ahead first.
Yeah, because I was going to.

1601
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:50,480
So I I know that, I know that.
I know, for example, Jerry

1602
01:13:50,480 --> 01:13:54,040
Garcia famously had a stroke and
I had to relearn pretty much

1603
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:57,640
guitar from scratch and what you
know, and what happens and how

1604
01:13:57,640 --> 01:13:59,920
that works.
I know that my my grandfather,

1605
01:13:59,920 --> 01:14:02,240
my mom's father, before he
passed away had a stroke.

1606
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:05,800
And obviously that affects, that
affects our ability to speak.

1607
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:09,560
And you know, the, we know that
it does something to a good

1608
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:14,240
chunk of our brain.
What do we know about music?

1609
01:14:15,480 --> 01:14:18,680
Is there a difference in
consuming versus playing as far

1610
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:20,720
as aging goes?
And and what and what?

1611
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:22,440
What does some of that look
like, if you don't mind?

1612
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:25,600
Yeah, so let's start with the
the stroke and traumatic brain

1613
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:27,320
injury.
I think so the systematic

1614
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:29,760
reviews do show that using music
therapy.

1615
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:33,960
So music therapy is when you
have do music in the context of

1616
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:36,640
a therapeutic relationship with
like a board certified music

1617
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:38,840
therapist.
So you have like goals much like

1618
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:41,040
you would as if you went to talk
therapist, right?

1619
01:14:41,480 --> 01:14:44,360
So what they find is that music
therapy really does help with

1620
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:46,520
traumatic brain injury.
So like with if you're

1621
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:49,320
recovering from stroke, you may
gain your limb use better or you

1622
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:50,960
know things like that.
So there's a lot.

1623
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:54,080
So music therapy is very
powerful for brain injury.

1624
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:56,280
Now what we see too is actually
music therapy.

1625
01:14:56,280 --> 01:15:00,040
The most robust and rigorous
research that we've seen is in

1626
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:03,520
older in, in older adults.
So we've signed that music can

1627
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:06,040
really help with things like
Parkinson's disease because

1628
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:07,680
music has a beat.
So let's say you have

1629
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:11,640
Parkinson's disease and you're
struggling just to get walkie to

1630
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:13,320
find this inner beat to start
walking.

1631
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:16,360
When you play music and work
with a music therapist, it helps

1632
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:18,800
you get back into that so that
you can maybe start walking by

1633
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,280
yourself.
And what we see with dementia is

1634
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:24,320
there's an amazing movie.
If people haven't seen it, it's

1635
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:26,400
called Alive inside.
It used to be on Netflix.

1636
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:29,720
It's probably on Prime now.
But basically it's it's it was a

1637
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:32,920
nonprofit organization that was
doing what was called the iPod

1638
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:35,200
Project.
And they brought little iPods to

1639
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:37,880
nursing homes and older adults
and gate let them listen to

1640
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:40,440
whatever music they wanted.
And, you know, these were

1641
01:15:40,440 --> 01:15:43,240
dementia patients who were very
inert, you know, maybe not

1642
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:45,520
moving, maybe not always
remembering their old family

1643
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:47,680
couldn't speak that well.
And all of a sudden when you

1644
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:50,480
play them the music they like,
they become alive again right

1645
01:15:50,480 --> 01:15:52,400
there.
They are articulate and they

1646
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:55,600
have opinions and they, you
know, they're alert and, you

1647
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:57,800
know, engaging.
And so we see that music is

1648
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:01,440
really amazing for dementia.
In fact, for a lot of people

1649
01:16:01,440 --> 01:16:04,480
with dementia, specifically
among Alzheimer's disease,

1650
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,600
memory for music is actually
pretty well preserved.

1651
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:11,240
And So what you can use, you can
take advantage of that, right?

1652
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:14,240
And, and bring use music to
bring people into themselves and

1653
01:16:14,240 --> 01:16:17,440
help them remember things.
Now, we still don't know why it

1654
01:16:17,440 --> 01:16:20,440
works, you know, like, what is
the mechanism that music helps

1655
01:16:20,440 --> 01:16:22,760
people with Alzheimer's disease?
But there's a theory.

1656
01:16:23,280 --> 01:16:25,720
The theory is that in dementia,
if you think about it, parts of

1657
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:28,000
the brain are kind of going
offline and they're starting to

1658
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:30,640
become isolated, like little
islands, your brains not talking

1659
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:33,240
to each other.
But music brings it all back

1660
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:36,680
together into right.
So that's a working hypothesis,

1661
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:39,120
a working theory.
More research is being done.

1662
01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:41,640
But yeah, there's actually some
research, you know, people are

1663
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:45,200
trying to figure out like, OK,
can music, you know, along with

1664
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:47,960
dementia, there are a lot of
what we call behavior on

1665
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:50,640
psychological symptoms of
dementia.

1666
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:54,120
So let's say depression,
anxiety, agitation, lethargy,

1667
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:55,640
right?
We're starting to try to very

1668
01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:58,360
systematically be like, OK, when
can we use music?

1669
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:01,800
And how does it help with
agitation or lethargy or

1670
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:04,040
depression or anxiety, right?
We're kind of at that stage Be

1671
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:07,400
like, imagine if eventually we
could prescribe music the way we

1672
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:09,080
would prescribe an
antidepressant.

1673
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:12,040
Might be like OK I want you to
go and I want you to your choir

1674
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:14,920
three times a week 30 and we're
going to see you know and see

1675
01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:17,920
how that affects your behavior
and your these what we call

1676
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:20,080
behavior on psychological
symptoms of dementia.

1677
01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:23,160
So there's a lot of work that's
being done on it In fact that's

1678
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:26,720
why two of my grants are
actually I recently got an NIA

1679
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:30,480
from the NIHI got AK 01 Thank
you It's a career development

1680
01:17:30,480 --> 01:17:35,280
grant to study the use of improv
based music therapy help people

1681
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:37,120
with dementia and their care
partners.

1682
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:39,040
I want to look at like, does it
help that, you know, because

1683
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:43,200
care as a unit, yeah, as a unit,
caregivers have a lot of burden

1684
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:45,120
when and you're taking care of
someone who's sick, right?

1685
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:49,160
So can we use improv based music
therapy to reduce stress, reduce

1686
01:17:49,160 --> 01:17:52,320
depression, introduce.
To my grandparents, I would love

1687
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:53,960
to.
Yeah.

1688
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:55,400
I mean and.
I think, yeah.

1689
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:57,960
And I think one of the benefits
of doing something like this is

1690
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:01,120
it's non pharmacological, right?
Like I could you know, people

1691
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:03,480
obviously there is medication to
help things, but if you think

1692
01:18:03,480 --> 01:18:06,280
about medication can often have
side effects, right?

1693
01:18:06,480 --> 01:18:09,360
Whereas if you pick the right
music, you're working with board

1694
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:12,200
certified music therapist,
there's not likely to be adverse

1695
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:14,080
events.
And so it's it's like a good

1696
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:15,760
frontline first.
Low risk.

1697
01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:19,520
Low risk, a good way to try
starting to help someone who's

1698
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:21,840
dealing with dementia.
And granted, again, this is for

1699
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:23,760
early dementia.
We're not talking about late

1700
01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:26,760
stage dementia yet or but you
know, this is where, you know,

1701
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:29,520
that's one of the research areas
that I'm looking into that I'm

1702
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:31,040
starting.
I'm at the beginning of it.

1703
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:35,360
It's so amazing, it's so cool.
I and I mentioned to you that

1704
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:38,240
that I think I mentioned to you
that I used to visit the

1705
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:40,320
assisted living homes back when
I was in college.

1706
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:42,680
And one of the things they used
to do was I used to just sing

1707
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:45,640
and, and people that and, and
people and, and, and the

1708
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:49,920
residents in the in these homes,
you know, it doesn't even make a

1709
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:51,800
difference.
It was, it was So it almost

1710
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:54,680
felt, and obviously I'm sure it
wasn't, but it almost felt

1711
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:58,040
unanimous.
As far as anecdotally, everyone

1712
01:18:58,040 --> 01:18:59,840
remembers the pink Sinatra songs
that we would sing.

1713
01:18:59,920 --> 01:19:02,600
Everyone remember the classic
show tunes that we would sing.

1714
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:05,600
And it would and and what I'm
and I and what I would imagine

1715
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:10,000
is is also brings back a whole
bunch of series of associations

1716
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:11,960
and memories.
Exactly like a.

1717
01:19:12,480 --> 01:19:14,560
Yeah, drawback.
You know, I know, for example,

1718
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:16,880
that I have a very strong
association with James Taylor

1719
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:20,400
that you know, like I, you know,
my wife and I had gone to his

1720
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:23,800
concert in Tinglewood and you
know, and and and and, you know,

1721
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:25,600
the drive there and and and and
the music.

1722
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:28,520
But even being introduced to his
music in college, college, I

1723
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:31,880
have very, very strong and and
so I I play music and parts of

1724
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:35,520
myself that I haven't even
thought about in years.

1725
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:38,200
Just come rushing to the
Chicago.

1726
01:19:38,480 --> 01:19:40,960
You know, you're the inspiration
was like breakup song in high

1727
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:43,880
school and I didn't listen to it
in like a decade and it came on

1728
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:46,920
on the radio and I just was
transported back and I thought

1729
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:49,360
about the girl that a girl that
I hadn't thought about.

1730
01:19:49,720 --> 01:19:53,040
For years. 20 years and like all
these memories and associates,

1731
01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:54,920
so, so I'm sure that that has a
lot to do with it.

1732
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:57,360
It's really, really.
I mean, they, they call this a

1733
01:19:57,360 --> 01:19:59,440
music cognition.
We joke the phenomena is like

1734
01:19:59,440 --> 01:20:01,520
they're playing our song.
So think about it.

1735
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:05,320
Let's say you're 8090 years old,
but you remember the song you

1736
01:20:05,320 --> 01:20:08,040
dance to at your wedding, right?
It brings you back right there.

1737
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:11,920
And that's the thing, Music.
Has an amazing way to pull on

1738
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:14,680
all these associations and you
know something else we're trying

1739
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:16,320
to start doing again.
We're still trying to find

1740
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:18,040
funding.
So we haven't done it much yet,

1741
01:20:18,040 --> 01:20:21,000
but we're trying to bring
personalized playlists to older

1742
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:23,200
adults who are treated in the
emergency room.

1743
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:24,360
Right.
So the emergency room is a

1744
01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:27,560
really stressful place enough so
that many older adults will feel

1745
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:29,160
delayed.
They won't they'll get confused.

1746
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:31,880
They don't know where they are
or those get angry and start

1747
01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:34,520
getting agitated And right like
normally maybe you would have to

1748
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:36,000
use medication to calm them
down.

1749
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:39,480
But if we give them a pot, you
know, modify with their

1750
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:41,880
headphones, you know, we often
do like, what do you want to

1751
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:43,680
listen to?
You know, and anecdotally we

1752
01:20:43,680 --> 01:20:47,280
joke OK, well, take when they
were born and add 18 to 25

1753
01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:49,000
years.
We all remember the music of our

1754
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:51,360
youth, right.
And so if you do that like, like

1755
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:53,320
it's a Frank Sinatra is that,
you know, it's like if you add

1756
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:56,640
the the songs of their youth, it
often does calm them down or at

1757
01:20:56,640 --> 01:20:59,280
least it takes a very stressful
medical situation like the

1758
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:02,080
emergency room and makes it so
they can function again and

1759
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:04,920
remember who they are right.
So this is all work that's being

1760
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:07,240
done right now.
It's all ongoing.

1761
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:09,560
Still.
Still being studied, but I, I do

1762
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:13,320
think so I think that's why that
music has, you know, music isn't

1763
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:15,360
the only domain.
You know, scent is also one of

1764
01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:17,040
those that has a very strong
association.

1765
01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:20,920
But music has a very strong
association with memory.

1766
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:23,360
And like I said, specifically in
Alzheimer's disease, it's

1767
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:25,640
amazing that they might forget
their name.

1768
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:27,760
They might forget their, their
family members.

1769
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:30,400
They don't know why they're
here, but they hear that song

1770
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:33,440
and they're like, oh, I went to
prom on that was the song at

1771
01:21:33,440 --> 01:21:36,400
prom or I danced to that at my
wedding and I went to see that

1772
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:37,560
show.
The tickets were really

1773
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:39,800
expensive.
And right, it brings back all

1774
01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:41,920
this what we call
autobiographical memory.

1775
01:21:41,920 --> 01:21:44,840
Like if you think about it, as
you know, everyone in our life,

1776
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:47,920
we all have these soundtracks
that accompany our lives, right?

1777
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:49,960
The soundtrack of our own
personal life, right?

1778
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:53,440
And so when you play that back
when you're 80 or 90, it brings

1779
01:21:53,440 --> 01:21:56,000
you back into these
autobiographical memories.

1780
01:21:56,680 --> 01:22:00,760
Is there research on the impacts
of someone with dementia or some

1781
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:03,720
kind of neurodegenerative
disease playing as opposed to

1782
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:06,360
consuming music?
We're still looking at that

1783
01:22:06,360 --> 01:22:08,200
right now.
So I they, you know, in music

1784
01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:10,600
therapy, they considered
listening to music is something

1785
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:13,560
known as receptive music therapy
compared to playing an

1786
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:15,360
instrument that's active music
therapy.

1787
01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:18,760
So, you know, we're trying both.
I think there's benefits to

1788
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:22,360
both, likely higher benefits to
actually playing because it's

1789
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:25,320
again, a more complex process,
but that is that's something for

1790
01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:27,680
example, my KO1 will do because
they're going to be playing

1791
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:30,000
marimbas.
And then I also am a Co

1792
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:33,440
investigator on an R61 with
Doctor Julene Johnson here at

1793
01:22:33,440 --> 01:22:37,160
UCSF, where we're teaching older
adults with mild cognitive

1794
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:38,880
impairment.
That's like the preclinical

1795
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:41,680
stage to Alzheimer.
It's like what directly precedes

1796
01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:44,560
Alzheimer's disease.
And we're offering them improv

1797
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:47,360
lessons, piano improv lessons.
They were trying to see how does

1798
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:49,320
this affect it.
Again, all in progress right

1799
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:51,200
now.
So I can't speak too much to the

1800
01:22:51,200 --> 01:22:53,680
findings since we're still
gathering the data, but that is

1801
01:22:53,680 --> 01:22:55,280
the type of research we are
doing right now.

1802
01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:57,080
It's so exciting.
That means they have to be in

1803
01:22:57,080 --> 01:23:01,080
touch about, about, about like
when you, when you, while you

1804
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:03,480
keep on doing all this research
because this is all awesome

1805
01:23:03,480 --> 01:23:04,480
stuff.
I love all this.

1806
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:07,760
Stuff, you know, thank, you
know, it's like science is not

1807
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:11,760
an easy path by any way and by
any means, particularly now in

1808
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:14,080
this funding climate.
But it's really nice to get to

1809
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:16,720
talk to people and realize that,
you know, most people care about

1810
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:18,280
this.
Because I mean, something I

1811
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:21,080
think about too is that we know
from music cognition is that

1812
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:24,280
literally every culture on this
planet has had music.

1813
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:27,920
The oldest instruments are from
40,000 years ago, and they

1814
01:23:27,920 --> 01:23:30,440
predate visual art.
They come before the caves of

1815
01:23:30,440 --> 01:23:33,000
Lesco and things like that.
So it's amazing.

1816
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:35,360
I'm like, well, that really
speaks to the importance of

1817
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:39,680
music for human society, right?
And so I think whenever I talk

1818
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:42,280
about this research, well, it
can be hard when I'm in the

1819
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:45,320
throes of writing a grant or a
manuscript, music is something

1820
01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:48,240
that's very accessible to pretty
much all of us, many of us,

1821
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:49,080
right?
So.

1822
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:50,920
Yeah.
I'm really, yeah.

1823
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:53,440
And I'd be curious, you know,
one thing that I've, I've

1824
01:23:53,440 --> 01:23:57,320
noticed recently as I've kind of
been blowing more music is

1825
01:23:58,360 --> 01:24:02,800
Speaking of ancient or older
types of music, is that there's

1826
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:06,080
some genres like bluegrass or,
you know, some types of, I guess

1827
01:24:06,080 --> 01:24:09,400
maybe Irish or traditional music
that don't have to such heavy

1828
01:24:09,440 --> 01:24:13,880
emphasis on the, on the rhythm
section or any kind of, you

1829
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:16,280
know, percussion in particular.
And it's much more of a string

1830
01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:17,960
sound.
And they kind of depend on a

1831
01:24:17,960 --> 01:24:21,840
bass or some kind of other heavy
instrument to create that, that

1832
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,080
sense of rhythm.
But I think that, that, that,

1833
01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:27,320
but I always felt, at least
again, anecdotally, that the,

1834
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:29,800
that, that the percussion was
almost like the heartbeat, like,

1835
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:35,080
like the really, really a core
primal aspect of the music that

1836
01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:39,360
just kind of sweeps people up
almost as much as as anything

1837
01:24:39,360 --> 01:24:40,720
else.
It's almost like the, the whole

1838
01:24:40,720 --> 01:24:42,640
like backdrop.
And then everything else is kind

1839
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:45,240
of just flares and colours
coming from that.

1840
01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:48,320
And, and, and, and it was
curious to see, you know, the

1841
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:50,720
difference between, you know, I
again, I love Springsteen's

1842
01:24:50,720 --> 01:24:54,760
drummer, Max Max Weinberg and,
and the way that he drums in

1843
01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:57,640
particular really feels because
Springsteen was known for

1844
01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:03,440
changing the tempo a lot, even
mid song, you know, So what do I

1845
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:06,680
do?
Especially when you're jogging

1846
01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:09,160
and you feel like, you know,
like, and it gets you that in

1847
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:11,280
that place that runner's high.
But then you listen to Billy

1848
01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:13,680
Strings, man, and you're like,
there is no percussion.

1849
01:25:13,680 --> 01:25:17,040
And there's somehow still find a
way to keep that, to keep that

1850
01:25:17,040 --> 01:25:18,200
going.
And how does that work?

1851
01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:19,560
I all that stuff to me is
awesome.

1852
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:22,680
In that there in in the Billy
stream, for example, it's

1853
01:25:22,680 --> 01:25:24,480
implied beats.
So even though there's not a

1854
01:25:24,480 --> 01:25:27,720
percussion there, they're
setting the meat from a music

1855
01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:29,840
theory standpoint, they're
setting the meter strongly

1856
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:31,760
enough that you feel it.
So it's implied.

1857
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:35,000
But yes, is the percussion and
often a grounding thing?

1858
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:37,720
Yeah, absolutely.
So, for example, an improv music

1859
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:41,520
therapy, the base, the music
therapist often will pay play a

1860
01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:44,560
lower xylophone to set the beat.
And that's grounding.

1861
01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:47,320
It's to help set a foundation
and everyone else layers on top

1862
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:49,200
of it.
And you know, it's, it's very

1863
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:51,960
much tied to Physiology.
Something music cognition people

1864
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:55,160
have found is that the tempos we
tend to like, so the tempos that

1865
01:25:55,160 --> 01:25:59,760
music fall in tend to be the
same physiological tempos as our

1866
01:25:59,760 --> 01:26:01,480
heart rate and our breath rate,
right?

1867
01:26:01,480 --> 01:26:04,960
Like, you know, like I and if
you think music is human created

1868
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:08,680
right, we have created tempos
that mimic our own physiological

1869
01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:10,800
rates.
So yes, absolutely, you're

1870
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:13,320
probably running right to a
certain beat, permit it, and

1871
01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:16,280
then it changes and it does mess
with your Physiology, right.

1872
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:19,240
So yes, that music is this is
again, this idea that music is

1873
01:26:19,240 --> 01:26:22,320
very time to to culture and
biology and things like that.

1874
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:24,560
And those are the type of things
that music cognition in trying

1875
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:26,240
to understand.
Awesome.

1876
01:26:26,360 --> 01:26:30,360
And my last question for you,
which I like to end now on every

1877
01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:34,480
podcast on now is what are you
excited and hopeful for as far

1878
01:26:34,480 --> 01:26:36,160
as your research in the future
and everything?

1879
01:26:36,240 --> 01:26:40,160
Else, you know, I really hope
that I can continue to keep

1880
01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:43,640
doing research on music, you
know, music work or arty arts

1881
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:46,360
space work has always been
really kind of underfunded and

1882
01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:48,520
undervalued, right?
Certainly it's not Cancer

1883
01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:51,480
Research, absolutely that you
know, but you know, I do think

1884
01:26:51,480 --> 01:26:54,400
it's really important and I
think we're starting their scene

1885
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:56,760
that the public is starting to
know more and more about using

1886
01:26:56,760 --> 01:26:58,960
the arts and music.
So what I'm really hopeful for

1887
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:03,320
is that I really hope more
people start to see why the arts

1888
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:07,680
are valuable, but then also help
advocate for funding sources

1889
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:10,680
and, you know, philanthropy that
does support work like this on

1890
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:12,520
the arts.
You know, because up until now,

1891
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:15,400
I think I've always considered
what I do very niche.

1892
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:17,920
And I am still considered niche,
particularly even at like a

1893
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:21,640
medical school like UCSF.
So I hope, I'm very hopeful

1894
01:27:21,640 --> 01:27:23,640
though, that in the future,
people will continue to see how

1895
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:25,880
important the arts are and fund
work like this.

1896
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:28,920
And then I hope that kind of
work will eventually help

1897
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:30,640
artists, right?
We have all these artists

1898
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:33,040
graduating from school and
showing that they can have

1899
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:35,640
careers that are not just being
in the arts.

1900
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:39,080
Maybe you become an arts
therapist or a music

1901
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:41,720
practitioner or things like
that, using your talent and your

1902
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:45,480
skills for health or for, you
know, aging or working community

1903
01:27:45,480 --> 01:27:47,320
homes.
So, so that's what I'm hopeful

1904
01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:48,960
for.
That's like my pipe dream is

1905
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:51,200
eventually we get to that point.
I love that.

1906
01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:56,400
I just, I think I was talking
again to talked to Kurt Ellen

1907
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:59,640
Morgan about this, but he said
that there's a real disconnect

1908
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:04,240
between the research world of
music and the university type of

1909
01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:07,920
world and academia and the
actual performance world.

1910
01:28:08,120 --> 01:28:10,400
And he said there's a real,
there's a real gap between them

1911
01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:12,240
that means that, that, that he
thinks should be bridged.

1912
01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:15,120
And I would love to find, I
would love to encourage that.

1913
01:28:15,120 --> 01:28:18,200
I would love to, you know, for,
for great musicians to want to

1914
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:21,440
go to universities and want to
go to you guys and want to go

1915
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:24,440
and say, hey, you know, how can,
how can we work together and

1916
01:28:24,440 --> 01:28:26,560
understand this?
And, and you know, and, and

1917
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:29,640
provide mutual, you know,
beneficial research for

1918
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:32,080
everyone.
And I think that I would love

1919
01:28:32,080 --> 01:28:33,120
that.
That's something I'm really I'm

1920
01:28:33,120 --> 01:28:34,840
really hopeful for and I would
love for that to happen.

1921
01:28:35,160 --> 01:28:36,840
Yeah.
And I've been really lucky with

1922
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:38,840
my National Endowment for the
Arts funds.

1923
01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:41,400
I've been very lucky that
musicians have been buying in,

1924
01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:44,360
that we've been able to get as
far as Small and Colin Mockery

1925
01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:47,840
and Zakir Hussein and these
amazing greats to come in

1926
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:49,520
because they do think it's
important.

1927
01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:52,280
But yeah, this work doesn't
happen unless musicians and

1928
01:28:52,280 --> 01:28:54,560
artists buy in and help us
support it.

1929
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:56,800
And I think some something that
I have personally found as a

1930
01:28:56,800 --> 01:28:59,560
scientist, it really helps that
I do have this music background

1931
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:02,240
because I can go into
conservatories and say, no, I'm

1932
01:29:02,240 --> 01:29:04,440
not just some weird
neuroscientist that was study

1933
01:29:04,440 --> 01:29:06,000
your brain.
I'm one of you.

1934
01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:08,040
This is what's going to happen.
Like I can speak.

1935
01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:10,560
They they take me seriously
because I have music training,

1936
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:11,600
right?
Or art screening.

1937
01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:14,960
So I, I do think I am hopeful
that there's going to be more

1938
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:17,480
and more of this
interdisciplinary work and

1939
01:29:17,480 --> 01:29:19,720
that's going to be more and more
public so that people realize

1940
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:22,560
how important it is.
But yeah, I mean, I think we all

1941
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:24,440
know it.
Like we all have aging parents

1942
01:29:24,440 --> 01:29:26,680
or grandparents and want to use
what we can.

1943
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:29,680
And so I think these are the
more we bring this into our real

1944
01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:33,080
lives, I think the better.
So I I'm hopeful for that too.

1945
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:36,440
Doctor Karen Barrett, thank you
so much for coming on.

1946
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:40,000
This is such a blast.
I really appreciate your time

1947
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:42,240
and this is and I hope, I hope,
I can't wait.

1948
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:44,200
I hope to do this again.
This is a really ton of fun.

1949
01:29:44,200 --> 01:29:46,400
Yeah, this was so much fun.
I at first, as I didn't know

1950
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:47,600
which studies we'd be talking
about.

1951
01:29:47,600 --> 01:29:49,800
I love that.
It was like a conversation that

1952
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:52,960
we got to have and it's great.
And I, it did seem very like we

1953
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:55,360
were able to flow from top and
top and very cohesively.

1954
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:57,080
So, so good job.
Thank you, Efra.

1955
01:29:57,120 --> 01:29:58,720
I.
Appreciate it, this is a ton of

1956
01:29:58,720 --> 01:29:59,600
fun.
Have a great day.

1957
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:01,360
Thank.
You let me know if you need

1958
01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:02,040
anything else.