Science Series 5: Larry Sherman / Understanding Alzheimer’s, MS, Parkinson’s / Music & the Brain

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Welcome to another episode of
Come TOGETHER.

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We're Live.
Doctor Larry Sherman, Welcome.

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How are you?
Great.

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Great to see you.
Great to see you too.

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We are going to have so much fun
I want to dive right into it.

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I had a whole list of your
credentials, but I wanted to

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talk to you.
The reason I reached out to you

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was to talk about
neurodegenerative diseases.

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And I did see that on your, on
your page.

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I forgot whether it was your
website or university page that

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you that you also studied music
in the brain.

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And so I wanted to talk about
that as well.

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But why don't you, you know, you
just told me about two seconds

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off air.
But tell me a little bit about

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the main research that you do.
And we kind of break that down

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from there.
Sure.

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So I went a research laboratory
out at the Oregon National

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Primate Research Center and at
Oregon Health and Science

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University, which is a medical
school in Oregon, in Portland,

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OR.
And I'm a professor there.

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And my, my lab is focused on
understanding ways to repair the

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brain or protect the brain in
people with diseases like

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multiple sclerosis and
Alzheimer's disease or other

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forms of dementia.
We made a, a really interesting

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discovery back in 2000 and, and
five where we found that this

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molecule, you might have heard
of it, hyaluronic acid.

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And you watch any face cream
commercial, they always say they

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add hyaluronic acid to it.
And hyaluric acid, it's just a

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big old sugar molecule and
people have been injecting it

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into joints for arthritis.
Actually the number one

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commercial use of it was in race
horses.

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Interestingly, after races they
it's actually reduces the

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inflammation.
But some more horse medicine.

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Yeah, yeah.
This is not Intermectin trust.

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Me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But but so it turns out, you
know, when you have any kind of

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injury anywhere in your body,
this molecule builds up as a

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protective response, right?
It's anti-inflammatory.

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It kind of, you know, keeps the
the tissues in in check.

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The brain is really bad about
getting junk out of it itself.

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And so this happens in the brain
too.

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But if it keeps happening, this
molecule it, it accumulates to

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excess.
There's too much of it.

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And then the cells around these
areas where there's damage

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actually make an enzyme, it's
called a hyaluronic dace, which

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chews up the hyalic acid.
And what we figured out over

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years is that these little
pieces of hyalic acid that get

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chewed up feedback on the cells
and tell them not to do their

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jobs.
And so, and that's probably a

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protective response over time.
Who knows why, but but we found

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out that if you block that
enzymes activity that higher in

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a days, we can actually see
repair in the brain, which is

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really amazing.
And so for patients with Ms.,

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it's mostly about a substance
called myelin.

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Myelin is, it's this kind of
fatty protein substance that

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wraps around nerve cells like an
insulation, like on a wire.

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But it really it's main function
is to make everything go faster.

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I lived in Germany for 3 1/2
years, so I was referred

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everything relative to the
Autobahn where there's no speed

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limit.
So if you have myelin and your

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nerve cells, it's like driving
on the Autobahn at midnight when

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there's no traffic and you can
go 200 miles an hour and no

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one's going to stop you.
And if you lose your myelin,

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it's like driving on pick your
favorite freeway to drive on at

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rush hour, lucky to be going two
hour 2 mph, right?

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And so you can imagine what that
means for our brains because our

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brains have all these different
parts to them.

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And you have to have very high
speed connections between all

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these different parts of the
brain to make it work, right?

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Right.
So people that Ms. their immune

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system is attacking their own
myelin and stripping it off of

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these cells.
And so now these different areas

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are.
Attacking their their brains.

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Yeah, they're attacking their
brains.

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Yeah.
So, so, so that's so the result

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is now these areas, it's like
you've got all these areas that

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are supposed to be moving on the
Audubon, and all of a sudden

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it's like you're they're not
moving at all, or they're moving

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at 2 miles an hour.
And so now movement is affected,

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feelings are affected, being
able to see all these things are

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affected and even even learning
a memory can be affected.

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Yeah.
So what we found out is that if

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we block this higher on a dace
activity, we can actually get

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some of the myelin to come back.
And maybe it's not getting you

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out of the Autobahn, but maybe
it's getting you up to legal

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speed limits in the state of
Florida, so.

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I see, OK, there's I have a lot
of follow up questions, but that

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was that was that was an awesome
introduction to this.

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To be clear at the beginning,
right, you said so the way that

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the problem begins is by our
body's immune system, our

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natural immune system, whose job
it is to attack potentially

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dangerous cells.
Every time that it functions,

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some of it makes its way to the
brain.

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Is that what you said?
So, yeah, our immune system and

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people that mess, OK, what's
happening is your immune system

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is, it's supposed to be
attacking foreign things, right?

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Like bacteria, infections or
viral infections, right?

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And in this case, for some
reason that we still, we're not

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entirely sure about a people
with MS. what's happened is

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their immune system has decided
that their myelin, which is this

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really important substance in
the brain, is a foreign body.

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It's not supposed to be there.
I see.

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And so it's getting into this,
immune cells are getting into

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the brain and attacking the
person's own myelin that's and

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someone.
Someone whose brain is but but

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but everyone's brain has myelin
in it because anyone whose whose

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immune system is working means
that they have to have a mile a

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certain amount of myelin in the
brain, period.

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Right.
And if your immune system is

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working right, it's not
attacking your myelin, right?

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That's one of these.
It's an autoimmune disease.

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It's your immune system
attacking you as opposed to

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attacking things that shouldn't
be there.

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Crazy, crazy.
So it's interesting.

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It doesn't sound, you know, the
way that I've heard, for

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example, diseases like dementia
or Parkinson's is like the

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connection between the our brain
is faltering, is my

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understanding, the connections
kind of dissolving.

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This isn't so much that the
connection dissolving as much as

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they're slowing down
communication almost to a halt,

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right?
Right.

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So that's a different thing and
but there is a longer term

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consequence of that.
So it turns out one of the other

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things that myelin does is it
keeps those neurons, the nerve

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cells healthy.
So over time, what happens in

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Ms. patients is I see the
neurons start to die.

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And so now you do start to lose
all these connections, and

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that's a real problem.
So that's where the

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neurodegeneration comes in.
Exactly.

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The brain is attacking the
protective part of the neurons

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or the body.
Yeah.

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The wow, Yeah, wow.
Now it, now in Alzheimer's,

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what's happening is, and, and
you mentioned Parkinson's.

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I mean, Parkinson's is really
interesting because it's really

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selective neurons that are dying
mostly it's so-called

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dopaminergic neurons, which are,
you know, important for ulcer

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movement, coordination and
everything else, among a lot of

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other things that we don't talk
about with Parkinson's patients,

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but that they also experience.
And in Alzheimer's though, it's,

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it's even broader.
It's, it's more lots of

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different nerve cell centers
where the nerves are really

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dying off.
And now my own research on on

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Alzheimer's about the hyrinic
acid is we, we see the changes

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in myelin happening in
Alzheimer's patients too.

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So this protects the substance,
but now it's, it's just damage

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to the neurons and myelin is
going away because of the damage

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associated associated with the
neurons, but it's not coming

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back after the damage the way it
does and other diseases.

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But in addition, what we figured
out was that hyrinic acid

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actually helps protect blood
vessels in the brain.

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And, and what's amazing we think
is that the reason it's doing

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that is, is it's responding to
some sort of long term

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inflammation, all the other
things that we do to our bodies,

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long term hypertension, all
these things.

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And eventually again, the cells
want to clear that stuff out

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with these higher endidases.
And So what we're finding is

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that this higher endidase
activity may lead to leaky blood

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vessels in the brain, basically
because the cells are dying in

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the tiny little blood vessels.
And so we may have a second

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benefit of blocking this
activity by protecting the

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brain's.
Blood vessels, I'm sorry.

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And leaking blood vessels in
your brain could lead to strokes

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or God forbid, or blood.
What's the consequences of that?

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So, so, yeah, in a big sense,
for the bigger vessels, yeah,

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that's a stroke.
For these tiny little vessels,

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though, they're more like a
little tiny, tiny mini strokes

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that you probably don't even
notice.

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But over time, as those pile up,
and now you add to that the

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things that happened in
Alzheimer's, which are these

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things called plaques in these
two angles, and you put all that

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together, that's when you really
have a problem.

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That's because it's not just the
plaques and tangles, it's not

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just the vasculature, It's that
combination that seems to be

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read.
Hey everyone real quick if

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Thanks so much.

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Really driving dementia so.
Wow, wow, wow.

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OK, that's crazy.
That's all, that's all.

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And and I guess this process can
begin.

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Is it this process happened
quickly?

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Does it happen over the course
of time?

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Because I know, for example,
actually, and is a pretty crazy

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story.
I know someone from college who

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I think when we were 25 married
a 35 year old girl.

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And I think within a couple, I,
I think within a couple of years

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she was diagnosed with MSI.
Thought that.

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And, and my previous association
with Ms. was that it manifests

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in people's sixties, 70s.
You know, I didn't realize that

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it happened that early.
Yeah, I mean, people in their

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20s and there's even, you know,
there's pediatric forms as well.

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But wow, really?
And this is a disease that,

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sadly, even today, you don't
really know you've had it until

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you've had it for a while.
I met the actress Terry Garr

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years and years ago who had Ms.
And she was telling me how, you

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know, she was hanging out at a
party one time, and she woke up

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the next morning and she had a
real weakness in her arm and was

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about to go to the doctor.
And then it got better.

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So she didn't go.
And then a few years later, it

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happened again.
And this time it lasted a

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longer.
She still didn't go to her

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doctor.
And then finally, like 10 years

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later, she had this attack where
she's really not feeling well.

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She finally went to the doctor
and they finally got diagnosed.

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So by the time she was
diagnosed, she'd already had

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this disease for a decade.
And she was in her 30s, you

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know, her late 30s and, and and
she was trying to hide it from

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people, too, because in
Hollywood, you know, people with

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disability not to get jobs.
Yeah.

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But but yeah, she said, she's
really had a lot of disability

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long before she even got
diagnosed.

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Wow, wow, wow, that's OK.
That's crazy.

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And I guess it gets worse over
time.

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And at a certain point you
can't, you can't fight it,

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right.
And the only, the only reason

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why I think why, why the story
strikes so is because on one

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hand, it feels like every time
that anything happens, you know,

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I mean, I'm 30 and like, my back
is just starting to, you know,

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hurt me more often.
Or, you know, I'm getting more.

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Taking a little longer to
recover.

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I'm at the age where when I wake
up and I feel all the pains in

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my body thinking I'm still alive
because I know the pains there.

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But, you know, you never know
whether to take, you know, what

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to take seriously or not.
You know, and like, I guarantee

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you that I've woken up with, you
know, pins and needles or

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something weird happening.
Like, I don't know, that's

226
00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:57,600
weird.
I just kind of get up and I

227
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,120
forget about it and like years
between episodes would even

228
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,760
imagine is like you can't even
connect them necessarily.

229
00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,200
No, no, absolutely not.
That's actually, that's

230
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,760
absolutely right.
And and that's the thing.

231
00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,240
So the cool thing about Ms. now,
compared to when I started this

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research, we used to have like
one or two drugs and I've got

233
00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,040
over 20.
Yeah.

234
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,160
And these drugs are great
because what they're doing is

235
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,240
they're stopping your immune
system from getting into your

236
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,960
brain, right?
So they, they really slow down

237
00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,240
the progression of the disease.
So people are living longer and

238
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:31,160
better than MSL than they have
ever before, but we still

239
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,080
haven't addressed the ability to
repair that damage that happened

240
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,160
leading up to where they are
now.

241
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,920
And so that's what my lab is
trying to figure out, and that

242
00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,840
for both Ms. and Alzheimer's.
Why has that been so

243
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:47,400
challenging?
So, you know, the brain is kind

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00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,640
of is, we still don't know as
much about the brain as we do

245
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,600
about other organs.
And that's because the brain is

246
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,200
this amazing computer and there
are so many, you know, think

247
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,560
about the billions of cells and
trillions of connections between

248
00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:05,560
cells and that brain and all the
ways, different ways that it

249
00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:07,680
works.
And you know, it's funny because

250
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,960
I talk to my students and
they're like, you know, what's

251
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,040
the most surprising thing to you
right now about research?

252
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,120
And I said, well, when I was
where you are, we didn't know

253
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,640
anything that we know right now.
And it was All Star Trek.

254
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,640
It was all like, you know, this
is, this is like science

255
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:23,920
fiction.
And now it's like, Oh my gosh,

256
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,240
we can actually, we may actually
be able to cure some of these

257
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,080
neurological diseases, you know,
which is incredible.

258
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,880
We have proof of concept that
that's true from various

259
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,520
experiments and model systems,
right?

260
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:39,320
So, so that, but that's been a
challenge because there's so

261
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,600
many things we still don't quite
understand to the point where

262
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,160
we're going to have an effective
therapy.

263
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,240
I'm actually giving a talk, a
public talk about the history of

264
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,600
Alzheimer's disease.
And I talked with and it starts

265
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,960
in ancient Sumatra from these
old tablets they found

266
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,080
describing elderly people who
have these symptoms that are

267
00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,720
very unusual.
And it's it's Alzheimer's

268
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,200
disease.
And then we had nineteen O 6

269
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,360
when Alzheimer himself made
these initial observations about

270
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,080
what was happening.
And so we took all that

271
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,400
information, did all this
modeling looked good, and then

272
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,640
we took it to the patients and
lo and behold, it didn't work.

273
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,520
And the reason is we there were
things we just fundamentally

274
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,680
didn't know yet.
And we made assumptions based on

275
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,320
what we knew and, and what all
that told us is that we need to

276
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,320
know more.
And that's how science works.

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00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,720
So we're getting better.
We're getting better, but we're

278
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,920
not there yet.
We are, we are.

279
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,160
I mean, and you know, I've
talked about this a bunch and

280
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:37,880
everyone in the world is pretty
much talking about it.

281
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,600
But you know, the, the, our
ability to be able to access

282
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,360
information nowadays is going to
is so dramatically different

283
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,640
overnight.
You know, I mean, I, I'll, I'll

284
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,720
tell you that, you know, the
part of the way that might go by

285
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,160
my podcast, for example, is I
use AI to help me find guests,

286
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:54,960
right?
But I want to talk to, you know,

287
00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,760
10 people about the brain and
music or the brain, you know,

288
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,000
the history and you know,
economics, whatever.

289
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,200
And please find accessible
people that you know, have given

290
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,840
public talks and have the emails
available online, right?

291
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,400
That, that process in of itself
to find 10 people to reach out

292
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:15,880
to two years ago, what took me
hours and hours and hours a

293
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,680
week, and now I am reliably
finding, you know, top quality,

294
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,920
really great guests in a matter
of minutes and just the amount

295
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,440
of efficiency of wedding out
information sorting through data

296
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,120
is just so incredible.
I'm, I, I feel like we

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00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,880
definitely I, I, you know, my,
my opinion with a lot of

298
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:40,600
technology today is that we're
so far past where we've been

299
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,600
cabled.
We're able to implement at the

300
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,000
moment and like all of this is
like waiting for us to just like

301
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,520
decide as a world to like pick
it up and start using it, but

302
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,000
like it's all just sitting there
in front of us.

303
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,120
Well, in my field, I'm just in
my career time, you know, it's

304
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,640
been incredibles watching how
things have progressed.

305
00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,320
I mean, you mentioned
information processor, just

306
00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,920
finding people or finding
information.

307
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,080
So when I was in Graduate
School, I had to go to the

308
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,880
library and we had these monthly
books that were like this thick

309
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,200
and the paper was onion skin
thin.

310
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,800
And the text was like 8 point
text, right?

311
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,120
And you had to go through and
like look up subject, your area

312
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,320
of subject and like find the
papers that were recently

313
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,440
published in your subject.
And then you went to the library

314
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,480
and you made photocopies of the
articles and you brought them

315
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,080
home and you highlighted them
with a pen.

316
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:26,920
Now you just type it into the
computer.

317
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,360
It likes gives you the list and
it actually downloads the papers

318
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,120
for you.
And then it highlights the areas

319
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,320
that are interesting.
So it's, it's completely

320
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,160
different.
And then the technology for what

321
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,240
we do in my lab, you know, like
things that when I was in school

322
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,040
that would take me a week to do,
I can do in 30 minutes now.

323
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,360
So we're now we're kind of where
the compute in the

324
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,760
biotechnology, we're kind of now
in that spot where it's

325
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,640
exponentially growing, kind of
where the computer, it's kind of

326
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,640
where computer industry was 20
years ago.

327
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,560
So we're like at the point where
it's like discoveries that used

328
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,640
to take years, now we're taking
months.

329
00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,640
And soon it's going to be weeks
and then it's going to be days.

330
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,920
It's, it's remarkable.
It's an incredibly exciting time

331
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,800
So long as like our funding and
infrastructure actually stays in

332
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,040
place where I think we're going
to be able to make some amazing

333
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,359
discoveries.
Yeah, and I think it's part of

334
00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:12,920
the reason why it's being slow
rolled.

335
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,880
It's because our friendly
infrastructure needs to keep up

336
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,160
with it.
I mean, whether you're in, you

337
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,400
know, South Florida, like where
I am now, or even in when I was

338
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,240
living in Seattle 5-6 years ago,
you know, I mean, I, you know,

339
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,760
Seattle was not prepared.
The infrastructure was not

340
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:28,319
prepared for the amount of
people that were living there.

341
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,520
And I know this from driving
around and local parking and,

342
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,000
you know, these two way streets
that have absolutely no business

343
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,160
being two way streets there.
And, you know, and, and like, on

344
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,680
one hand, you know, it's, it
definitely adds the charm.

345
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:41,920
It's fun that the city is
packed.

346
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:43,280
It's fun that people are always
on foot.

347
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,840
But you can see that the, you
know, we, it could have used

348
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,800
some slow rolling before
Microsoft and Boeing and

349
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,920
Starbucks and everyone, you
know, and everyone just popped

350
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,720
up overnight, not overnight, but
seemingly overnight.

351
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,200
And, and yeah, that's really
amazing.

352
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,640
So now that we understand a
little bit about Parkinson's and

353
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,880
Alzheimer's and Ms., first of
all, is Ms. or all these

354
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,600
diseases rather, are they purely
genetic or can they be caused by

355
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,400
environmental factors?
That's a really good question.

356
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,200
So it depends.
They're all different.

357
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,760
And the answer for that is
different for each of those

358
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,920
diseases and for any
neurological disease or any

359
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:25,520
disease in general.
So genetics plays a part at so

360
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,680
many different levels, right?
So there's just the sequence of

361
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,120
your genes, right?
The little four letter code, and

362
00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:36,360
some people have subtle changes
in that for a little letter code

363
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,920
that makes genes more or less
efficient in what they do.

364
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,680
And so for Ms. for example,
there's some data now suggesting

365
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,880
that people with MS. have a
genetic liability to get Ms. And

366
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,920
by liability, I mean they have a
subtle change in some genes in

367
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,760
their immune system in
particular probably maybe some

368
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,000
subtle changes in genes and the
cells in their nervous system

369
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,480
that if something else happens,
they're going to get Ms. whereas

370
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,520
if other people had that
something else happened, it

371
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,480
wouldn't make a difference.
So more.

372
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,720
Trigger happy?
What's that?

373
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,000
So more trigger happy.
More trigger happy.

374
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,400
Yeah.
So, OK, so the trigger actually

375
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,560
then for people who have that
genetic liability, there's been

376
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,760
a lot of different suggestions
of what that might be.

377
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,880
But one of the leading
suggestions right now is a virus

378
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:30,360
called Epstein Barr Virus.
Now why do I know?

379
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:32,240
Why do I know that name?
I'll tell ya.

380
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:37,280
So for, for one thing, Epstein
Barr virus, 100% of humans at

381
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,280
some point in their life where
we're going to get infected with

382
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,520
Epstein Barr virus, right?
For the vast majority of us,

383
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,280
it's a cold.
For a small number of us, it's

384
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,760
mono mononucleosis, the kissing.
Disease, right?

385
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,360
So, so and so why do some people
get mononucleosis and some

386
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:58,680
people get a cold?
Well, it's again, genetics

387
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,760
probably.
It may be just the state of your

388
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,720
immune system at the time that
you got infected.

389
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:04,520
It may be the age you got
infected.

390
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,440
All these things together may
impact that.

391
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,160
Now for it turns out for an even
smaller number of us, there are

392
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,480
certain cancers that are related
to Epstein Barr virus infection

393
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:22,320
and Ms. So, so if you have that
specific genetic liability and

394
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,040
it may be more than one gene, it
may be multiple genes.

395
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,160
That are altered and then you
get this Epstein Barr virus

396
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,600
infection at some specific point
in your life that means you're

397
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,360
being triggered to get Ms. So
that's Ms. right.

398
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:38,400
That's a very kind.
And the reason Ms. is not I mean

399
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:44,040
about a million people in the US
get Ms. but that's not a really

400
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,240
common disease.
But it's it's pretty common.

401
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,640
But it's it's still you have to
have these multiple things

402
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,640
happen to get it.
So it's not as common as other

403
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,520
things.
In the case of Alzheimer's,

404
00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:57,160
there's a small proportion of
people with Alzheimer's who have

405
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,000
an actual mutation in a gene or,
or or a different couple couple

406
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,240
of genes.
And those people tend to have

407
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,360
this very aggressive early onset
form of Alzheimer's.

408
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,160
So that's that's different than
the Alzheimer's that people get

409
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,480
starting in their 70s and 80s or
60s even is that.

410
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,640
What Robin Williams had, because
I know that he, he got a fairly

411
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,240
young age, I think, right, I
mean.

412
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:24,080
So Robin Williams actually had
a, what we think we think was a

413
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,040
combination of Parkinson's and
something called Lewy body

414
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,200
disease, is my understanding.
That's that's a little different

415
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,760
again.
And Lewy body disease is

416
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,920
something that often goes hand
in hand with Parkinson's,

417
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,040
interestingly, and we don't
entirely understand why, but for

418
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,400
these Alzheimer's patients,
yeah.

419
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,520
So there's a small percentage of
them get early onset Alzheimer's

420
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,640
and that seems to be a genetic
disease almost purely that's

421
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,760
genetic, although there's other
factors there too.

422
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,920
For the majority of us though,
as I mentioned, it's a

423
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,760
combination of having maybe
hypertension your whole life and

424
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,160
or diabetes and then having a
little bit of genes that are

425
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,160
predisposing you towards this.
Now you put all that together

426
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,000
and you get someone who's got
what we call dementia, and that

427
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,040
could be Alzheimer's or other
kinds of dementia.

428
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,160
So, so that's a combination of
lifestyle things or things that

429
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,080
have happened to you, plus some
genetic liability.

430
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,880
And then for Parkinson's, again,
there's actually a couple of

431
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,600
cases of Parkinson's that are
linked to a specific gene

432
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,560
mutation.
Those are rare.

433
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,120
Those are rare, but there's some
data to that.

434
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:31,680
Things that happened to you and
things that you're exposed to

435
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,200
can trigger that.
There's a study that suggests

436
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,680
that if you've had multiple
concussions and plus you're

437
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:43,840
exposed to a certain pesticides
that were common, for example,

438
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,120
in the 60s and 70s, my my
brother had Parkinson's disease

439
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,400
and the body disease and he was
an athlete.

440
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,080
So he got lots of concussions.
And that was back in the days

441
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,960
where it's like you got hit in
the head and your coach said, I

442
00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,400
got your bell rung, go back out
there.

443
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,720
So nobody recovered from the
concussion back then and he was

444
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,160
having his face rubbed in in
these chemicals that were in the

445
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,040
grass to keep the grass and the
weeds away.

446
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:11,960
Oh man.
Right.

447
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,000
That combination is is suspected
to really contribute to

448
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,360
Parkinson's and people who don't
have the genetic Parkinson's

449
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:20,800
form.
So there's a lot of different

450
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,600
reasons you can get Parkinson's,
it turns out.

451
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,840
Are there any studies about, I
guess, athletes having a higher

452
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,120
rate of Parkinson's because of
that?

453
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,520
There are some studies that
suggest that that especially

454
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,920
people, like I said, have had
multiple concussions and that's

455
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,880
also true for certain dementias.
So I mean, you think about it

456
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,440
makes sense.
You're, you're causing a lot of

457
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:41,840
stress to the cells in your
brain.

458
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,920
And so as you get older, the
normal stresses of aging now

459
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,080
we're going to be amplified a
whole bunch, right, right.

460
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:49,880
So.
Right, right.

461
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,000
And what about what people call
preventive maintenance?

462
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,880
You know, in other words, what
can we do to keep our cells

463
00:23:58,560 --> 00:23:59,680
healthy?
Now, I know the way that you

464
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,880
describe that Parkinson's and
Ms. in particular seem to work

465
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,760
is that it's almost beyond our
control as far as, you know,

466
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,920
what we do, right?
These are things that are

467
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,720
happening on a, on a molecular
level or cellular level that,

468
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,440
that, that we can't really
control as far as we know.

469
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,200
What is?
Is there anything to do to to

470
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,480
lower your chances of this or to
slow the progression of it or

471
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:23,800
what?
What?

472
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,320
How does that work?
So probably not to stop the

473
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,240
disease from happening in the
1st place, but there are things

474
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,480
that seem to really help with
regards to progression, like you

475
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,320
say, like making sure it doesn't
get worse or, or, or progresses

476
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,480
very slowly, but also maybe
starts much later in life.

477
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,920
And so there's this whole idea
that of reserve, you know, if

478
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,880
you have more cells to kill off,
it'll take longer than for it to

479
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,320
affect you personally.
And so that's, and that's where

480
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,640
my interest in kind of music
comes in actually.

481
00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,680
So, you know, so I think there
is this kind of, there's a study

482
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,960
that was done brilliant idea.
It's like the question was, how

483
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,360
do we get a population of human
beings together where we can

484
00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:11,160
rule out as many variables as
possible to understand normal

485
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,960
aging, right, as well as
abnormal aging.

486
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,000
And so somebody had a brilliant
idea to use nuns.

487
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:25,080
So this is called the nun study.
And the idea was they found a

488
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,920
convent where they had a huge
number of sisters.

489
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,640
One of the cool things about
this convent was they all had to

490
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,080
write essays about why they
wanted to be a nun to get into

491
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,240
the convent.
So this was when they were in

492
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,440
their 19, you know, late teens,
early 20s, most of them.

493
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,480
And you can learn a lot about a
person from a writing sample.

494
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,560
And so they had that and then
they followed these sisters

495
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,520
until they died.
And what came out of the study

496
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,280
was there were there were
sisters in this convent who

497
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,360
lived to be in their 90s and
hundreds and were sharpest

498
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:57,480
tacks.
And then there were sisters who

499
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,040
even at, you know, in their 40s
and early 50s started showing

500
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,120
signs of decline mentally.
And there were a couple of

501
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:06,760
things that sorted out who got
what.

502
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,080
One of them was the writing
sample.

503
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,840
So the sisters who were kind of
more flourished in their

504
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,400
writing, kind of more
descriptive, more expressive.

505
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,040
They tended to do better than
the sisters who just said, I

506
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,560
want to be a nun, you know,
because the nuns are cool, you

507
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,960
know, or something like that.
I'm, I'm obviously

508
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,440
oversimplifying dramatically
there, but that's part of the

509
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,680
idea.
The other thing though that

510
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,600
really was interesting was the
nuns who did well were actually

511
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,880
throughout their lives
constantly trying to enrich

512
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:37,400
themselves.
They were trying to do like

513
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,320
learning to play the piano at
age 70 and then going off and

514
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,560
giving piano lessons.
The nuns that weren't doing

515
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,960
well, they were kind of couch
potato nuns, right?

516
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,400
They were coming into this
convent and they were taking on

517
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,800
some menial task and sticking
without their whole lives.

518
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,720
And so the ones that were
challenging themselves, you can

519
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,000
see that they had different
brain structure.

520
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,920
So although they had all that
plaque and tangle and everything

521
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,840
else, the rest of it was pretty
well.

522
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,680
So the plaques and tangles made
less of a difference for them as

523
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,520
they aged than the ones who just
weren't developing and keeping

524
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,320
their brain healthy.
And so I think that really says

525
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,960
a lot.
I mean, the brains kind of A use

526
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,160
it or lose it organ and
everything.

527
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,600
Well, everything is but yeah.
But I mean, the brain, you got

528
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,680
to keep doing things.
Otherwise it's just going to,

529
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,000
you're going to have less to
lose as you get older.

530
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,640
And I think that is really
telling.

531
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,880
So when I started working my
music stuff, I it's amazing.

532
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,760
Musicians have all these cool
things in their brain, like more

533
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,400
myelin, for example, evidence
that they're actually maybe

534
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,200
making new neurons throughout
life because they're really

535
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:42,640
intense.
They're practicing their

536
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,200
instruments or learning new
instruments.

537
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,200
Neurogenesis, right?
Neurogenesis, I learned

538
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:48,800
recently.
That's right.

539
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,640
Yeah.
So it may be driving

540
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,840
neurogenesis, myelination and
more synapses, more connections

541
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,600
between neurons.
And so that's the other thing

542
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,440
that you lose in in dementia is
the connections.

543
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,680
And you know, these trains of
connections, as they start to

544
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,640
fall apart, your personality
falls apart too.

545
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,720
So if you can have more of those
going into a situation where a

546
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,400
disease is causing that loss,
you have more to lose and more

547
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,880
time.
Yeah, and so, so interesting.

548
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,440
So cool.
So, so freaking cool.

549
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,080
This makes you know this also
makes you think of and I thought

550
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,000
the portrayal was incredible.
I showed this to all my high

551
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,160
school students inside out and
inside Out too did such a great

552
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,600
job, especially in the second
one of introducing the notion

553
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,400
that as our as our brains
develop and become more

554
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,440
complicated and our emotional
states vary with it, you know,

555
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,640
and there's direct relationship
between our, you know, the

556
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,240
development and progression of
our brain.

557
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,040
But then it would also stand to
reason.

558
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,560
And I told my, you know, I say
this every time I talk about

559
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:49,280
this, I would watch 100 movies
of inside out, just of different

560
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,080
phases of different people's
lives, you know, just to just to

561
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,800
watch that same, you know,
concept in action in different

562
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,840
applications.
But one of them has to, you

563
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:02,960
know, in and I talked actually
to, I'm forgetting his name, Bob

564
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,840
Levinson out of Berkeley.
He's and yeah, he's, he was, he

565
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,200
was super wonderful, super
informative and fun and sweet.

566
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,360
And one thing that we were
talking about was the

567
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,520
personality, I guess, loss of
emotions as you age, because I

568
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,560
was talking about my grandfather
and how recently he's had short

569
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,000
term memory loss, probably
borderline dementia, but you

570
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,280
know, they're not going to talk
about it in that sense.

571
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,960
And I've noticed that his, you
know, his range of ability to

572
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,760
express different emotions has
been significantly limited.

573
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,400
And I'm sure no coincidence, you
know, we aged 5, you know, five

574
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,680
years every year after you
retired, you know, every time,

575
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,120
you know, he was a doctor, he
was a gastroenterologist that

576
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,320
was a very active Miami Beach.
And then, you know, the second

577
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,200
that he stopped seeing patients
and the second he stopped

578
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,400
running around and making house
calls and keeping up with

579
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,920
people, you know, the decline,
the decline began almost

580
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,320
immediately.
Well, that and that makes total

581
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,960
sense, right?
If you think about it, I mean,

582
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,800
our brains are who we are,
right?

583
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,320
Our memories are who we are.
So all the things that we've

584
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,000
experienced throughout our lives
shape our personalities.

585
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,640
They shape everything they are
that we are about us.

586
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,640
And as those start to fade away,
other aspects of our personality

587
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,280
change as a result of that.
And, and that becomes, you know,

588
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,120
really hard over time,
especially for family members

589
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,800
who are trying to connect with
these people who suddenly aren't

590
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,320
who they used to be.
And those social interactions

591
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,760
are incredibly important.
You mentioned your, your, your

592
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,400
grandfather was constantly in
touch with people.

593
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,120
And, and when we lose those
social interactions, that

594
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,680
actually is another way that
our, you know, keeping our brain

595
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,880
active when we, we're talking to
people that's gone.

596
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,480
Those, those, those stimuli go
away and, and it becomes harder

597
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,400
and harder over time to kind of
replace that.

598
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,760
I think there's been a number of
studies done comparing people in

599
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,280
the US to people and for
example, different parts of Asia

600
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,280
where families tend to stick
together more, right?

601
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,680
So even though you may retire
from your work, you still have

602
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,720
these intense social connections
with your community and people

603
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,320
in your family, and they tend to
do better as a result of that.

604
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,160
I think there's good data for
that now.

605
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,520
So I think that's such an
important aspect of it.

606
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,080
And then with music, you know,
the same thing.

607
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,680
Music brings you together.
Music's amazing too, because as

608
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,560
we age, one of the things, the
last things that goes is music.

609
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,560
It turns out, even though there
are people who cannot speak and

610
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,520
yet they can still sing songs
that they know from their past

611
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,400
and musicians who can sit down
at at their instrument and play

612
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,680
their instrument perfectly even
though they can barely say a

613
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,800
word.
So that's amazing to me too.

614
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,560
I have personal experience
seeing this.

615
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,320
I've never seen anything like
this before.

616
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,920
So a girl I dated, her mother
had a variation.

617
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,800
It was a very, very murky
diagnosis of Parkinson's because

618
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,520
it didn't really match up
exactly.

619
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,240
But it was the closest that I
think the doctor, the doctor's

620
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,120
able to provide.
And but a lot of the she didn't

621
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,760
get as much of the tremors as
much as she would freeze up and

622
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,280
lock up and music.
And you turn on music and you

623
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,680
turn on James Taylor or you turn
on, you know, some old show tune

624
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,080
that, you know, hello, Dolly,
That we, you know, that that she

625
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,760
used to listen to her, she plays
the accordion and like, and you

626
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,560
would see minute to minute
someone that could not move,

627
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,400
could not like, you know, just
stuck where she was to literally

628
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,120
skipping around the house.
I mean, and I saw his known

629
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:25,600
eyes.
I couldn't.

630
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,600
And I and I and I, and I mean,
we definitely do not have not I

631
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,400
guess scratched the surface as
to what music is capable of

632
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,960
impacting us, but it's, it's,
I'm, I'm very hopeful for the

633
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,960
future of that.
Well, and music therapy is now

634
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,960
being recognized more and more
as a viable and actual thing

635
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,360
that some insurance companies
are actually starting to cover.

636
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,280
My favorite, my favorite example
was Congresswoman Gabrielle

637
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,320
Giffords, Mark Kelly's wife.
OK, so she, you know, she went

638
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,200
to a campaign to that years ago
in Arizona and got shot in the

639
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,080
head.
I have some crazy person.

640
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,400
And so she wound up doing this
incredible multi year

641
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:11,080
rehabilitation and she couldn't
speak for for a long time after

642
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,080
being shot.
And so one of the things they're

643
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,200
having her do was music therapy
where she was she she she

644
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,600
couldn't speak, but she could
hum and sing a little bit.

645
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,720
And over time she kept pushing
herself and pushing herself to

646
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,840
use music and she could sing
phrases instead of saying them.

647
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,640
And then after doing that for a
long time, they're really

648
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,000
pushing herself with the music.
You may have heard her speak.

649
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,960
She's she's giving talks in
front of audience.

650
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,320
Look it up.
I'll look it up again.

651
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,000
What's her name?
Gabrielle Giffords, she's a

652
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,680
congresswoman from Arizona and
Mark Kelly or her husband, who

653
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,640
is the astronaut and and he's a
senator now, you know, cared for

654
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,520
her.
And it's an amazing story, you

655
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,800
know, but, but so one of the.
So that to me tells me that,

656
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,960
yeah, music therapy is real.
You see it with Parkinson's

657
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:00,760
patients.
Actually.

658
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,840
You mentioned movement.
There's a lot of therapies where

659
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,560
they're getting partners at
Parkinson's patients to work

660
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,440
with them to do dance lessons to
music.

661
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,520
The music has a rhythm to it,
and the rhythm actually helps

662
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,239
them coordinate their movement
and it makes them feel less

663
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,600
agitated and more in control,
which just dramatically improves

664
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,080
the quality of their lives.
And then for Alzheimer's

665
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,280
patients, yeah, I mean, you can
sit them down in front of these,

666
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,440
you know, can sing music from
them, from their past.

667
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,800
I have a great story about that,
actually.

668
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,600
So years ago, I was asked to do
a a interview on a radio show.

669
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,040
And the other guest was a woman
named Naomi Lavelette.

670
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:43,400
And she is a classically trained
pianist and has now gone off and

671
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,719
made records.
And she writes music now.

672
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:52,679
And, And somebody, a family
friend of hers had a dad who he

673
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:54,600
was a pianist and he used to
make up all these songs.

674
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,000
He had a huge number of songs
that he wrote, but he never

675
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:58,920
wrote them down and he never
recorded them.

676
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,920
And all of a sudden he was at
the piano and he's was

677
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,160
forgetting whole phrases of
music that he had composed.

678
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,200
And it turns out he had early
onset Alzheimer's.

679
00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:15,720
And so she would sit with him at
the piano and find the music,

680
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,400
the project, saving his music.
And she wrote it down and she

681
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,120
recorded it.
And then I got to meet him years

682
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,760
ago before he was really
debilitated.

683
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:34,400
And we started talking about how
music is like threads.

684
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,840
We had, he had this description
of music is like threads that

685
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,240
bring people together in all
sorts of different ways.

686
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:41,440
It's these strands that bring
people together.

687
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:42,640
And I thought that was really
beautiful.

688
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,040
And about a couple months ago, I
don't know if you know, Dolly

689
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,320
Parton has basically made
arrangements of her music for

690
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,640
symphonies.
No, I did not.

691
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,320
It's awesome.
And so we went to the, we went

692
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,240
to the Symphony and it's a great
show.

693
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,640
And she, you know, so the
Symphony Orchestra is playing

694
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,720
her music and they've got some
musicians and vocalists singing

695
00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:08,560
and it's it's an amazing show.
I mean, even if you don't like

696
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,200
Dolly Parton's music, it's
amazing.

697
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,720
And then there's videos of her
talking about the inspiration

698
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,800
for the songs in between.
And you learn a lot about her

699
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,360
and and her life.
She talks about threads, how

700
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,760
music is like threads that bring
people together.

701
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,440
And I turned to my wife that
night and I said, that's what

702
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,320
Steve told me.
This, this composer.

703
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,600
And the very next morning, I get
a call from Naomi saying, hey,

704
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,480
Steve's on his deathbed.
He's he's at end stage.

705
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,240
Would you want to come down and
see him?

706
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:40,840
And I said, of course, yeah.
Because I got to know the family

707
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:45,400
over the years, and she came
into his room and would start

708
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,840
playing music.
And here's a guy who's literally

709
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,440
immobile on his bed.
She's playing the music on her

710
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,080
guitar and he's tapping away.
He's just moving away.

711
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,640
And so that just tells you that.
And I'm sure it helped him with

712
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,600
his agitation and made him feel
better.

713
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,120
And you know it, It's so
powerful.

714
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,560
And I think the fact that more
and more people are starting to

715
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,520
recognize this is, is good
because music is so important to

716
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,240
humanity.
It's it's, it's important to who

717
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:15,040
we are as human beings.
Yeah, yeah, I, I've been

718
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,320
advocating for, I mean, probably
over a year now on the show for

719
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,280
people to go to as much as many
live music events as possible.

720
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,960
Even if even if you don't play,
you know, even if you don't know

721
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,840
it, you know, find a local bar,
find a pub, find a brewery.

722
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,720
If you go to there, there there
is something that is

723
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:36,320
particularly cool about a
relative.

724
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,280
Like I would say, like the
problem is I don't even know if

725
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,400
it's amount of people relative.
It's people to space, right?

726
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,920
So, I mean, if you're in a in a
little jazz club and there's 50

727
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,640
people there, that's awesome.
I've, I've been to Blues bars in

728
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,120
Chicago with my dad and yeah.
And it's 2:00 in the morning and

729
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,720
we walk out after hearing this
band play, you know, for three

730
00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:57,840
hours and, and we walk out and
we just feel like different

731
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,480
human beings.
And we're like, we just had this

732
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,760
incredible shared experience and
we, and also the, and with

733
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,720
there's this unspoken bond
between the people that

734
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:08,720
experience that together.
When you, when you find out that

735
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:10,960
someone else is a deadhead and
you find out someone else like

736
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,920
Fish or Springsteen or Billy
Strings or, or any, or, you

737
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,520
know, or Bill or Billy Joel or
Fleetwood Mac or anything that

738
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,080
you like.
And like, all of a sudden

739
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,760
there's a kind of sense of
camaraderie that goes like

740
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,280
there's something that that
that's unspoken and deep that

741
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,520
you guys both share and relate
to that is really, really

742
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,520
powerful.
Well, that and that's an

743
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,760
important point.
So in our book, you know, we,

744
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,080
we, we actually send out surveys
to people, a lot of professional

745
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,600
musicians, but also just a lot
of people who like music, asking

746
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,560
them about experiences.
What do you think their brains

747
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,920
doing when they're composing,
when they're performing, when

748
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,720
they're practicing, when they're
listening?

749
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,920
And in the listening section, so
many people talked about times

750
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,280
when they were just depressed or
something was happening in their

751
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,080
lives and then going out and
hearing and experiencing a live

752
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,640
music.
And that or it's sometimes even

753
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,640
though they're just listening on
the radio and how the music kind

754
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,480
of brought them back and helped
them get out of it's deep

755
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,640
depression or addiction even.
And and it was, it was just

756
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,920
amazing hearing these stories.
But that comes back to why, Why

757
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,040
do we even have music?
Why is music so important to

758
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,720
humans?
And there's all this data now

759
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:19,360
that like performing music in
particular together in a groups

760
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,720
has this amazing neurochemistry
behind it.

761
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,200
That doesn't happen when you're
just by yourself.

762
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,720
So if you think about a chorus
singing together, one of the

763
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:32,120
things that happens when you're
singing with a group is there's

764
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,520
two neurochemicals get turned on
dopamine, which is a reward

765
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,040
signal, and endorphins.
Endorphins are really cool

766
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,040
because they actually make you
not care about pain.

767
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,920
But when you put that dopamine
and that endorphin together, it

768
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,680
actually gives you a sense of
acceptance within a community.

769
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:53,160
So you think about humans, we,
we need to live in groups, we

770
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,080
need to live in communities.
And what music does is it brings

771
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,280
us together and it makes us
given that sense of belonging.

772
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,840
Like you said, if I, if I like
the dead, which I do and I find

773
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,000
out the dead, we have a lot to
talk about and we're like in

774
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,360
this community, right?
But I think think about going to

775
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,560
synagogue and chanting.
I was going to.

776
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:13,920
I was literally about to bring
that up.

777
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,040
It's such a fundamental part of
religious life too.

778
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,640
It is for sure, And churches and
everything else you know, I mean

779
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,080
music.
Is the best music.

780
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:22,760
It's it's all the great.
Things you together.

781
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,440
Town and everything Blues came
from, I mean, it's some of the

782
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,560
best music in the world came
from churches.

783
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,760
But it but it brings people
together who have similar

784
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,120
beliefs and similar, you know.
Values.

785
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,960
Yeah, looks out of the life and,
and, and values and, and it

786
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,040
gives you that sense of
community and humans need to

787
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,240
have that.
We're we're not good at going

788
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:43,200
solo.
And and so I think, I think

789
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,760
that's an important part of the
evolution of music.

790
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,280
It it it actually helped us
evolve as a species and survive

791
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,280
because it it enforced that
sense of community and

792
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,400
belonging.
Yeah, I have AI.

793
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,120
Do I have a very strong sense of
optimism and hope actually for

794
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,560
this, for this upcoming
generation, because I think that

795
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,680
they saw the pain.
You know, I was born in 95.

796
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:10,280
I grew up just about the time
like I I would grew up the the

797
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,640
year that I was going through
puberty and dealing with fear of

798
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,720
girls and everything like that
was the exact time I got a

799
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:17,040
phone.
I was able to start texting a

800
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,840
girl instead of talking to her
face, you know, and oh, man,

801
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,120
yeah, exactly, you know, and
then.

802
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,440
And that's, that's a whole
different conversation, man.

803
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,360
It's a whole other world, but
but I think that the generation

804
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,640
below me saw the damage that it
did and I and they're rejecting

805
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,240
that.
And I think that, you know, it's

806
00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:37,320
been coming.
It's becoming popular to go to

807
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,160
the movie theaters again, to go
to live shows again.

808
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,040
It's popular to put your phones
down or to take social media

809
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,520
fast or breaks that people take.
Because I think that there's a

810
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,800
recognition like, listen, I, I
I've been saying this for 10

811
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,360
years with this is a test Bunny
generation of social media,

812
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,640
right?
So, you know, we're like, we're

813
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,520
letting it go.
We're going to let everyone use

814
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,400
it and we're going to just
figure out whether it's good or

815
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:58,840
bad and good luck with the rest
of it, you know?

816
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,440
And I think that that that that
people are picking up real

817
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,080
quickly that this is not
something that is attainable and

818
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,280
that we do need these
relationships and connections

819
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,280
and embodied experiences for
sure.

820
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,280
Absolutely.
And, and that the phone's just

821
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,920
not going to replace that.
And the way that it tries to

822
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,000
replace it I think is incredibly
damaging.

823
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,800
And so I, I think it's, you're
absolutely right.

824
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:19,400
You're absolutely.
Right.

825
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,680
I wonder if there's a
relationship between you between

826
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,880
especially like scrolling and
the type of the type of phone

827
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,200
use that people use and the and
and the brain degeneration.

828
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,280
Do you know if there's any
research on that?

829
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,440
So there's growing, there's some
growing studies about it.

830
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,880
And I mean, there is some really
interesting data that just came

831
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,280
out about AI use.
So people who are using AI to do

832
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,120
the work that they used to do
with their own brains.

833
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,720
I, I think there's some, some
real evidence that you're,

834
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,160
you're, you're actually giving
up neurons for that or giving up

835
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,280
circuits at least, right?
Because, because these people

836
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,120
are showing signs that it's not
helping them in terms of normal

837
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,240
brain processing.
And it makes sense, right?

838
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:04,160
You're, you're basically giving
up what your brain should be

839
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,440
doing to something else.
And it's, it's becoming making

840
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,040
your brain that couch potato
brain again.

841
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,480
Exactly, exactly right.
So, so I think, I think we were

842
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,360
going to be like you said, I
think there's a test buddy

843
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,880
generation for social media and
now we're the test buddy

844
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,040
generation for AI and we'll see
how that how far that goes.

845
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,960
That we learned from social
media, from AI, because they're

846
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:30,720
making a lot of very similar
promises.

847
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:32,520
You know, I mean, Mark
Zuckerberg running around saying

848
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,160
that you're not going to need to
hang out with friends ever

849
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,280
again.
And Sam Altman running around

850
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,640
saying that, you know, you never
have to work ever again.

851
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,720
Like no one says that that's the
yardstick that we're going for.

852
00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:44,040
I don't know who decided that,
you know that that's what the

853
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:45,640
way we're supposed to measure
success or failure.

854
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:47,960
Yeah.
So if you're never and, and and

855
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:49,840
bigger questions too, like if
you're never going to work

856
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,840
again, well, how are you going
to make money?

857
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,760
How's the average?
Average, I'm not as worried

858
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,040
about money as I am about
meaning.

859
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,640
I think, I think that we're at a
point with a combination of

860
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,800
energy and compute and robotics
that I mean, especially at the

861
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,800
rate that they grow like you and
I were talking about earlier,

862
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,960
like such an exponential rate.
I I don't think capital is going

863
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,720
to be as much of a problem in
the future as much as meaning

864
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:16,000
and purpose.
It depends.

865
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,160
I think if you if you're an
ultimate capitalist, you know

866
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,760
the goal, the goal is to get as
rich as possible, but that that

867
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,160
capitalism always has winners
and losers.

868
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:26,720
Mm hmm.
So and then I.

869
00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:28,400
Think we'll be post, I think
we'll be we will impose

870
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,520
capitalism pretty soon is why
that you're already kind of

871
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,000
there.
I think we I have to because,

872
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,440
because you know, I just think
about in the old days, you know,

873
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,360
if there is some new technology
that came along that basically

874
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,560
meant a whole bunch of people
suddenly became unemployed.

875
00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:46,680
My favorite story about that, by
the way, is telephone operators

876
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,120
#1 Employment Opportunity for
women in the United States.

877
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,920
Telephone operators and and the
cool story about that is kind of

878
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,440
funny story is that there was
some town where there was a

879
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,720
telephone operator and her
husband owned a Brickyard.

880
00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:04,240
I think it was a Brickyard.
And whenever she got the calls

881
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,120
for another Brickyard, she would
send it over to her husband's

882
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,560
business, right.
And the other Brickyard found

883
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,720
out about that turned out to be
a very guy who was turned out to

884
00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:13,720
be very inventive and an
inventor and figured out how to

885
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:16,480
do the automatic switching and
went overnight.

886
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,640
Overnight, all of those women
lost their jobs, you know, all

887
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,120
across the country.
And So what did they do?

888
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,800
So they found other positions
because things were changing and

889
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,200
there were other jobs and there
was other ways to get employed.

890
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:34,200
But I think the end result of AI
is there will be no jobs, right?

891
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,080
And so for some people, that's
great.

892
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,680
But for an awful lot of people,
what are they going to do?

893
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,560
And how are we going to, how are
we going to feed them, you know?

894
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,640
So, yeah, So I do wonder about
that.

895
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,040
And I think that I'm coming back
to the brain, you know, I think,

896
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,400
yeah, again, if you're, if
you're just instead of thinking

897
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,200
about something and like you
said, working with other people

898
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,200
to come up with ideas and
working at a group and now

899
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,280
you're just plugging it into AI
and all of your interactions now

900
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:03,880
are over the computer instead of
other people.

901
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,600
I think that's incredibly
unhealthy for our brains and and

902
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,320
for our ability to stay happy
and and everything else in our

903
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,840
lives and fulfilled.
One of the things that I found

904
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,120
amazing.
I know you've been if you've

905
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,600
been following the whole Artemis
2 journey.

906
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,520
The astronaut Coke was her name
is her name.

907
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,080
She's she's she's incredible.
I heard something her talking

908
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,200
about when they were going up
and coming further and further

909
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,120
away from the Earth and just
realizing that the four of them

910
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,760
in this tiny little space were a
crew that depended on each other

911
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,720
to survive, right?
I mean, everything they did,

912
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:41,760
everything had to work exactly
right.

913
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,800
And they all completely relied
on each other.

914
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,880
And, and, and then she's looking
at the Earth and she's seeing

915
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,760
this Earth surrounded by
blackness and realizing that the

916
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,000
Earth is a, is a lifeboat,
right?

917
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,240
It's, it's and, and, and then
she says, you know, I look back

918
00:46:57,240 --> 00:46:58,760
and then she says that's the
crew.

919
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,240
Everybody on that planet is a
crew.

920
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:05,160
And if we don't work together,
we're not going to survive.

921
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:06,480
And I think that's absolutely
true.

922
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,480
Even on the one to one basis,
our brains want that social

923
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,240
interaction.
They need it.

924
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,160
And we need to be able to work
together.

925
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,600
And, and maybe that means more,
we just need more choirs so we

926
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,400
can all sing together.
But I always joke.

927
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,200
I always joke.
Wouldn't it be great if we get

928
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,080
Congress to sing?
But can you?

929
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,360
Imagine.
Yeah.

930
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,720
Or Aaron Rodgers.
He says he wants anyone in

931
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,520
public office to take ayahuasca
first or something like that,

932
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,320
you know?
But yeah.

933
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,120
And that's Yeah.
And you know, what do you, what

934
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,640
do you think?
Are you aware of the Apple TV

935
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,320
show Plebeis?
Yeah.

936
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,320
I I watched it, I love it.
What do you think of that

937
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:47,760
context?
What do you think of concept I

938
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:49,880
mean?
I mean, it's, it's crazy, right?

939
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,920
Because it's like, I mean, it
takes the work life balance

940
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,400
question to a whole new level,
right?

941
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,360
That's severance.
Oh, I'm sorry, That's severance,

942
00:47:59,400 --> 00:47:59,920
Yeah.
Where?

943
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,720
We have the group, the group.
Things except for.

944
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,320
The people who, Yeah, yeah,
except for the people who really

945
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,520
want to stay individuals for
reasons that they don't

946
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,200
understand.
I can't wait for Season 2 to

947
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,600
come out.
But yeah, I mean, so again,

948
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:21,280
coming back to social things, I
mean, that's that's kind of the

949
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,920
extreme version of that, right?
Yeah, I think that's that's

950
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:25,160
that's.
Utopia.

951
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:30,120
I think a variation is utopia.
I don't know if it is because

952
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,680
again, I think we also find a
lot of fulfillment in our own

953
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,120
individuality.
Yeah.

954
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,640
All right.
Yeah, it's, it's almost, it's

955
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,760
almost like the the the extreme
version of communism, right.

956
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,840
So you, when you lose that, I
mean, that also gives you a loss

957
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,720
of control over things that
gives you a loss of I mean,

958
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:50,840
obviously if you're in that
particular situation that you

959
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,520
don't care about that anymore
because you've been programmed

960
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,160
not to care about that.
But the reality is as human

961
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,560
beings, that's not how we are.
We we want to have an.

962
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,280
Autonomy.
We want to, we want to know that

963
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,720
we're part of something.
We want to know that we're part

964
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:04,160
of that and that makes our
brains happy.

965
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,040
But we also want to know that we
are also individuals and that we

966
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,880
have that sense of who we are as
people.

967
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,480
And so I think those are both
very important things to hold on

968
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,320
to.
Sure, sure.

969
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,200
I watched a really interesting
debate that I started showing my

970
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,960
high school students this week
with Tucker Carlson this week.

971
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,440
And there was ACEO of some gene
editing company.

972
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:31,400
And the company allows you in a
similar way to IVF, the way that

973
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,320
you can kind of select a, you
know, particular traits, you can

974
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:39,120
select traits like height or you
could, you could actually

975
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:46,280
remove, you know, I guess remove
the take a embryo that is not

976
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:50,800
going that doesn't have the
genetic tendency towards, you

977
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,320
know, schizophrenia or cancer or
dementia or Alzheimer's.

978
00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:59,280
Is a lot of this research going
to be obsolete if all this is

979
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,720
just kind of edited out, or are
we going to still have to

980
00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:04,320
experience this?
We're a long ways away from it.

981
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,200
First of all, like I said, there
are things that happen during

982
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,920
the course of our lives that
impact these diseases, right?

983
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,920
So even if you have a genetic
resistance to something or or

984
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,720
not a genetic liability, there's
still a chance you're going to

985
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:19,720
get it.
But more importantly, you know,

986
00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:23,840
the thing with gene editing is
there's a, you know, there's,

987
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,360
there's a response to everything
you do.

988
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:30,080
And a system is complicated.
As a human body, you take out,

989
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,800
you take out an alter 1 gene.
How does that affect everything

990
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,160
downstream of that gene or
around that gene, right?

991
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,640
So we don't really fully know.
So I mean, on the one hand, gene

992
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:40,880
editing.
Alter the gene.

993
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,320
The argument was to select a
gene that wasn't that embryo,

994
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,720
that was not dis, that was not
just what sorry, that was not

995
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:50,720
that didn't carry it.
So it's not to take it, even

996
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:53,480
change it, but it's to say you
have a selection of 10 embryos

997
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,640
and you know this embryo is
going to be XY and Z and this

998
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,400
one's going to be XY and Z, but
to the real specifics.

999
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,160
We, we kind of do that already
in IVF.

1000
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,560
You know, we look for embryos
that are more viable, more, you

1001
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,520
know, healthy, working viable.
So the, the biggest problem and

1002
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,480
the biggest challenge for IVF
is, you know, it takes a lot of

1003
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,840
tries, a lot of embryos before
you get one that's healthy and

1004
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,480
right.
So we're already doing that to a

1005
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,440
degree, and we are at the point
where we can sample a single

1006
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,240
cell from an embryo and not
disrupt the embryo and do all

1007
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:29,120
that genetic screening already.
And so it's expensive, but you

1008
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,480
can do it.
So and if you're spending 30 or

1009
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:37,240
$40,000 a shot to do IVF, you
want to have the embryo that's

1010
00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:39,280
going to be the one that's going
to be OK.

1011
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,880
So that makes total sense.
So I think we're kind of already

1012
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,440
doing it.
We can do it more in a more

1013
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,880
sophisticated way, obviously,
and really get down to the nitty

1014
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,520
gritty.
And of course, you know, there's

1015
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,760
always ethical concerns about,
you know, wanting to make all of

1016
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:56,920
our embryos blonde haired, blue
eyed babies.

1017
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,560
And so that's another question
that we as a society need to

1018
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,800
grapple with.
But correcting disease genes or

1019
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:09,480
selecting against those?
Now some people will tell you

1020
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:14,640
and believe and understandably
that IVF is generating life,

1021
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,960
right?
So every single one of those

1022
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,880
embryos is a potential life or
potential human being.

1023
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,680
Somebody can say it.
And some might say those

1024
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,400
blastocysts, which are just a
small collection of cells, they

1025
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,000
don't have anything yet.
Just it's just a pile of cells

1026
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,080
is still a human being, Right.
Yeah.

1027
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,640
So ethically speaking, is it
hard to, like, pick one and let

1028
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:35,840
the others go?
It's a hard.

1029
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,040
Question that's also
interesting, right.

1030
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:41,880
And do you think it's not really
a justification to say that

1031
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,200
those that those wouldn't have
made it anyway and that every

1032
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:45,840
time they could only you can
only procreate?

1033
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,960
You know, I guess you always
right.

1034
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,160
That doesn't sound like a good
enough moral justification to

1035
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:52,200
me.
If that's if that's your

1036
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,040
beliefs, there are.
People, there are people in my

1037
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,280
life who have various genetic
diseases and I, I love them and

1038
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,320
they've made amazing
contributions to the lives of

1039
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,280
the people around them.
And it's like, would you take

1040
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,200
that away?
So those are huge ethical

1041
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,200
questions that we need to
grapple with.

1042
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,760
Or, or someone I, you know, I
and you know, the person that I,

1043
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,960
I dated, you know, one of the
questions that, that, that was a

1044
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,160
conversation that my parents had
to sit me down for is like,

1045
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,680
listen, if you want to, you
know, marry this person, move on

1046
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,960
with this, with this, with this,
with this girl, then you have to

1047
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,640
consider the family genetic
tendencies and like whether it's

1048
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:30,800
her or whether it's going to be
your kids, God forbid, or, or

1049
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:32,920
anything like that, Like this is
something to think about.

1050
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,360
And you know, it's not pleasant.
It's really, really not

1051
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,120
pleasant.
It you know, it takes a fun la

1052
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:41,040
de da reality and and and makes
it very real very quickly.

1053
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,400
Well, the, and so one of the
other areas of research in my

1054
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:49,240
day job is a, is a group of
conditions that are kind of

1055
00:53:49,240 --> 00:53:51,320
collectively known as
neurofibromatosis.

1056
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,480
It's actually 3 or 4 different
diseases or five even.

1057
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,040
And these patients develop
horrible multiple peripheral

1058
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,840
nerve tumors and they have all
sorts of other problems as well

1059
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,800
and.
Different nerve tumors called

1060
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,400
pain, right?
Some do, some do.

1061
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,520
Yeah.
And in fact, one of the one of

1062
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,240
the forms of this disease, the
main problem that these people

1063
00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:15,080
have is, is pain, like
intractable pain that there's no

1064
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,440
treatment for, which is one of
the things my lab is working on

1065
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,760
actually.
How do you tackle that?

1066
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,760
Well, so it's a very different
kind of pain than any other kind

1067
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,400
of pain you've ever seen.
And so we've we've been studying

1068
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,440
the mutations that are linked to
this disease and realizing that

1069
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:35,120
those mutations directly cause
the cells to cause nearby nerve

1070
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,160
cells to be hyper responsive to
pain signals.

1071
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,800
And so, so right now we're
trying to.

1072
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,440
You know, without, is there
inflammation there?

1073
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,480
Is some there is some
inflammation, but you don't need

1074
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,440
to have inflammation to have
this pain sensitivity.

1075
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:49,840
That's the thing that was.
So surprising.

1076
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,880
That's crazy.
And so your body wouldn't notice

1077
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:54,440
and relief because there's no
inflammation.

1078
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,480
Right.
So the question is how do you

1079
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,320
turn that off?
And so we've we've identified

1080
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,520
some proteins that we think are
driving this and it turns out

1081
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,200
there was already drugs
available attacking those

1082
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,120
proteins for completely reasons.
And so we're trying, we're

1083
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,200
trying those drugs.
A colleague of mine is running a

1084
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,520
clinical trial to try to see if
that will relieve the pain in

1085
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,600
these patients.
But what's you know, so but

1086
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,360
these are people who know they
have a genetic disorder, but

1087
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:21,200
also want to have families.
Yeah.

1088
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:25,400
So for for them, it's, you know,
how do I screen for that?

1089
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,120
And for them, it's no question.
I don't want an embryo that has

1090
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,120
these mutations.
I want the embryo that doesn't

1091
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:32,320
have those mutations.
And so I.

1092
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:37,000
Don't know if this is AI, don't
know if this is a thing outside

1093
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:38,960
of the I grew up in.
I am Orthodox Jewish.

1094
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,400
I grew up in the Orthodox Jewish
world and when I was in high

1095
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:42,600
school we went through.
I went through.

1096
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:44,640
I grew up in a Conservative
synagogue, so.

1097
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:49,120
There you go, beautiful.
And and I did something called J

1098
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:50,040
screen.
I don't know if you've heard of

1099
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:51,920
it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1100
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:54,320
Is that, is that something that
everyone does?

1101
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:56,760
Because I did it in high school
and everyone was like, listen,

1102
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,640
you should do this because it's
important to know that whoever

1103
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,280
you you know, you you should
know your genetic tendencies

1104
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,400
before you date and get married
so that you have an idea as to

1105
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:07,480
like whether you should even
begin a relationship or not

1106
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,240
even, you know, I mean, I know a
story of someone that, you know,

1107
00:56:10,240 --> 00:56:12,640
got a miss the doctor
misdiagnosed.

1108
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,840
They both were carriers for Tay
Sachs and, you know, and their

1109
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:16,600
first kid ended up dying.
Unfortunately, you know, it's

1110
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,560
just terrible story.
You know you want to.

1111
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,920
You want to prevent that.
You know, I, I, I remember

1112
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:24,480
having that conversation with my
parents.

1113
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:28,000
It's like, you know, as a Jewish
family, you know, we have to

1114
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,040
worry about Tay Sachs disease.
And I'm like, what Tay Sachs

1115
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:32,280
disease?
And now of course I know what it

1116
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:37,600
is, but I don't know anybody who
was going out before they dated

1117
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,720
and doing the genetic screen.
I imagine that is in our future,

1118
00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:42,440
to be honest.
I'm sure certain people are

1119
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,120
like, I'm not going to even date
you unless I know you're, you've

1120
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,040
got a pretty clean genetic
background.

1121
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,040
Sure.
And The thing is it's a risk,

1122
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,960
but it doesn't necessarily mean
anything's going to happen,

1123
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:54,200
right.
So that's that's the other

1124
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:58,400
thing, you know, if it's usually
these rotations are on one copy

1125
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:02,120
of your gene, not both copies.
So your chances of passing out

1126
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,800
on your children are small, are
smaller.

1127
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,360
But yeah, it's it's it's an
interesting question.

1128
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:11,360
And again, that's one of those
things that's like, where are we

1129
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,920
going with this?
And now, you know, even the, the

1130
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,560
23andMe and these other
companies that do genetic

1131
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:19,760
testing for you, they have that
information.

1132
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:23,440
Sure, Yeah, yeah.
And so there's like databases.

1133
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:28,880
It's like, okay, you know, I'm
going to, Efron's going to go

1134
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,440
date my daughter.
Let's look at the genetic

1135
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:34,200
information up before you have
that first date.

1136
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,680
Because if things go get hot and
heavy, I don't want anything.

1137
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:40,640
Out of that, I've done that.
So my, my, my, my brother is in

1138
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:42,800
the ultra orthodox world.
And there's a, there's another

1139
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,560
program they called Dorya
Sharim.

1140
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,480
And it's, I don't even remember
what.

1141
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:49,400
I don't even know what it means.
It's translated to something

1142
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,920
about straight generations or
healthy generations and didn't

1143
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:54,560
even tell you whether you're
prone or not.

1144
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,600
What you do is you and your and
the girl you're dating send in

1145
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:00,840
your, the, your, your report to
someone.

1146
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:02,840
They tell you whether or not
you're a match, yes or no.

1147
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,280
Like they don't tell you your
whole list of potential.

1148
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,240
Do they just say there's nothing
to worry about, you're good to

1149
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:08,520
go.
And so that way you don't

1150
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:10,480
necessarily know your genetic
history.

1151
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,760
You don't have to, but you know
that you're, that you and your

1152
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,440
what and your partner are not
going to be carriers for the

1153
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:19,400
same things, which I think is
also an interesting method.

1154
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,920
But that happens before you go,
you know, probably after the

1155
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,000
second or third date.
If you, if you want to continue

1156
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,880
going out with my son, my
daughter, we got to find out,

1157
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:28,680
you know what the story is over
here.

1158
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:30,200
That's really.
Interesting.

1159
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:32,880
Yeah, so tell me.
So let's talk about your night

1160
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,440
job now, because it sounds like
you're, you know, your day job

1161
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,200
keeps it keeps you pretty busy.
And you, you know, you, we

1162
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:42,640
discussed some of the music, but
why don't you elaborate a little

1163
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:44,560
bit on what, on what you, what
you've been doing?

1164
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,760
So this all started because I
was playing piano at A at a

1165
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,160
party for our department.
It was like our 20th anniversary

1166
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,200
or something.
And this person comes up to me

1167
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,560
and, and, and says, I didn't
know you played piano.

1168
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,160
I go, yeah, I've been in bands
my whole life.

1169
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,600
And we started talking.
It turns out she is the person

1170
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,880
who gathers people from the
public together every year and

1171
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:09,800
they have these these talks and
and she said, well, would you

1172
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:11,840
want to do one of these on music
and the brain?

1173
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:14,320
So that sounds like fun.
And she goes well, and I'd like

1174
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,440
you to play piano somehow during
the talk as well.

1175
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,240
Could you do that?
I goes, sure, that sounds like

1176
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:20,000
fun.
So I spent like 6 months reading

1177
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,600
all the papers so I could get my
hands on about music and the

1178
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,800
brain.
And what really struck me was

1179
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:28,200
the fact that some of these
studies were completely relevant

1180
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:31,600
to what I was doing in my lab.
So the idea that practicing

1181
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:35,280
music may actually drive more
myelin formation, the idea that

1182
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,800
practicing music may actually
Dr. Neurogenesis and the

1183
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:43,080
formation of new sets, synapses.
And so I, you know, sadly, you

1184
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,520
know, that was one of these
fields where about 1/3 of the

1185
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,880
papers were just crap.
I mean, they were just like, you

1186
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,200
know, sample sizes of two, no
controls, all these things.

1187
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,280
And so it's like, OK, I threw
that out and then I took the

1188
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,600
best papers and I kind of
piloted how it related to my

1189
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,160
work.
Found some good jokes to tell.

1190
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:04,760
I I Did you ever see the 2000
year old man with Mel Brooks and

1191
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:06,720
Carl Reiner?
I did not.

1192
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,000
Look it up.
It's hysterical.

1193
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,800
So basically Mel Brooks, famous
actor and and director and

1194
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:16,080
writer, plays the 2000 year old
man.

1195
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,720
And Carl Reiner plays the
interviewer and he's like asking

1196
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:22,360
him questions where things came
from.

1197
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,720
And so at one point, Carl Reiner
says, well, where did music come

1198
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:28,840
from?
And Mel Brooks's character says,

1199
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,120
oh, music.
It came out of fear.

1200
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:32,520
He goes, fear, what are you
talking about?

1201
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:35,920
He goes, yeah, one day I was out
walking and a lion started

1202
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,080
eating my foot off.
So I called out, a lion is

1203
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,680
eating my foot off.
Somebody call a cop, right?

1204
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,480
And then people heard that and
came from all around and they

1205
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,120
liked it so much they started
singing along.

1206
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:50,840
And that's how music started,
right?

1207
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:54,800
So I put that in there and I put
some music in.

1208
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,840
I get people to sing the end of
Hey Jude in three different keys

1209
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,200
just to show how the brain just
transposes music without any

1210
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:05,000
musical practice or experience.
And it's, it's fun, right?

1211
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,200
And so I gave the talk and
people come up to me after the

1212
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:11,440
talk and say, how much do you
charge for this talk?

1213
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:16,120
And I said charge.
And so because I thought this

1214
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:18,000
was going to be a one off as a
favorite of my friends.

1215
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:22,760
And so that turned into probably
I've probably given this talk

1216
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:24,640
600 times in six different
countries.

1217
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:30,360
And what's that been every it's
been a kind of fun adventure.

1218
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:32,400
My my wife thinks we should do
it on cruise ships.

1219
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,240
You know, I think you should do.
Then she gets to go, then she

1220
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:39,600
gets to on cruises, right?
So, but it's been amazing and

1221
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:42,920
I've learned so much about
connecting with the public,

1222
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:46,480
about science communication.
And so that turned into other

1223
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,800
talks on other subjects.
I did one about the neuroscience

1224
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:52,800
of love, love and pleasure,
which is great because you can

1225
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,280
talk about, you know, why eating
a piece of chocolate that makes

1226
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:58,960
your brain light up when you
fall in love, all the different

1227
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:00,920
stages in love.
And how about the neurochemistry

1228
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,200
changes when you're first
meeting somebody, then you get

1229
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,800
infatuated with them and then
you decide, or am I committed or

1230
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:08,440
am I going to start all over
again and all the changes that

1231
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:10,640
happened there.
But I also get to talk about

1232
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:14,560
things like when pleasure goes
wrong, like depression, this is

1233
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:16,040
could be talked about and
addiction.

1234
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:19,400
So I mean, it was a, it was
really a powerful thing to do.

1235
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:21,960
And then I've done a bunch of
other subjects too, but the

1236
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,080
music in the brain one is always
the most popular.

1237
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:27,360
And then somebody I know in the
publishing world said you should

1238
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,400
write a book about this.
And my first response was, there

1239
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,520
are so many books about music
and the brain.

1240
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:35,840
This is Your Brain on Music by
Dan Levitan is.

1241
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:37,960
An amazing brand.
I heard there was this record.

1242
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:39,760
The second one was also very
good.

1243
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:42,000
He's great, you know, and I'm,
I'm.

1244
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:44,600
Trying to get him on his
secretary pushed me off a little

1245
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:46,520
bit, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna get him at some point.

1246
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,040
Keep working on it because he's
actually really great to

1247
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,160
interview.
I've heard to him a couple times

1248
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:53,880
and I've seen he he was here
live in Portland.

1249
01:02:53,880 --> 01:03:00,440
I got to hear him talk not too
long ago, but so then then I the

1250
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:04,480
funny story.
I play racquetball at the J, the

1251
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:08,920
Jewish Community Center, and
it's at 6:00 in the morning

1252
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:11,680
because we both have jobs by my
Rocket Ball partner and I.

1253
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,960
And it was 1 morning after I'd
given one of these talks here in

1254
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,280
Portland.
And he said, hey, how'd your

1255
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:19,680
talk go?
And I started telling him about

1256
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:21,040
it.
And there was this guy kind of

1257
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,240
in our locker room that was kind
of there.

1258
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:25,040
I said hi to him.
I didn't know who he was, but I

1259
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:26,720
just said hi to him and he said
hi to me.

1260
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:29,640
And he stops us.
He says, did you say you were

1261
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:31,200
given a talk about music in the
brain?

1262
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:33,720
I said, yeah, he goes, I've seen
your talk twice.

1263
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:36,240
I just didn't recognize you
without any clothes on, right.

1264
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:41,120
So, so, so then, so then we
start talking and it turns out

1265
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,880
he's a music professor and a
professional jazz musician and

1266
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:47,520
all these and we became friends
over the years.

1267
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:50,280
And to the annoyance of my
racquetball partners, we had

1268
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,480
these long conversations like,
come on, we got to get going.

1269
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:56,360
And then he he told me after
about 5 or 6 years that he was

1270
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:59,000
about to retire.
And this was just a year or so

1271
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:03,360
before COVID.
And I said, you know, I got this

1272
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:04,400
idea.
I said, you know, listen,

1273
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,320
Dennis, Dennis, his name's
Dennis Plies.

1274
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:12,640
I said I would you be interested
in writing a book with me about

1275
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:15,640
the neuroscience of music, where
I could talk about the

1276
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:18,400
neuroscience and you could talk
about pedagogy, learning and

1277
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,360
everything and what it's like.
To be a musician.

1278
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,080
And put it together.
And then maybe we could, like,

1279
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:25,320
send out a survey to
professional musicians and add

1280
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:27,440
to that and put this whole
conversation together and all

1281
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:29,600
these different things.
And he said yes.

1282
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,840
And so it was moving at the
speed of evolution because we're

1283
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:36,040
both busy people.
And then COVID it.

1284
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:38,680
Suddenly we had all this time to
write.

1285
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,200
So I thank COVID for letting me
finish this book.

1286
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,640
And it was published by Columbia
University Press, which was

1287
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:47,600
awesome.
They've been great.

1288
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:50,400
The audio version just came out.
We just had the Mandarin version

1289
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:55,000
come out in China, in China.
And they changed the cover.

1290
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,520
It's funny that it looks like
something from the 1950s beatnik

1291
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:00,440
movement, but that's cool.
I like that.

1292
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:02,880
It's been an amazing adventure.
So I got to like just recently

1293
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,640
got invited to do my talk with
the Detroit Symphony in Detroit,

1294
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:09,080
which was amazing.
And you went and I've done.

1295
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:11,360
What's that?
You're going or you went.

1296
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:12,800
I already did it.
I did it back.

1297
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:14,600
To you nice, nice, nice, amazing
and by.

1298
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:16,480
The way Detroit, it's really
nice now.

1299
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:17,520
I loved it.
I I.

1300
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,000
Was there.
I was there two or three years,

1301
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,160
two years ago when my buddies
got married there.

1302
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:24,160
I had a great time.
I had a great.

1303
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:27,680
Time that's a great city so we
had a we had a really good time

1304
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:30,800
and it was really fun working
with the Symphony there and and

1305
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:34,240
these jazz musicians there too.
I asked these, I asked musicians

1306
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:36,760
to join me on stage, but I do
this and I always ask them to do

1307
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,080
crazy things and they always buy
into it and it's so much fun and

1308
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:42,160
we have a great time.
But so that's how that all got

1309
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:44,320
started.
And so to me, it's been an

1310
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,120
amazing adventure because I,
like I said, I I'm finding

1311
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,880
things that I do in my lab life
that overlap with the science

1312
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:53,200
behind the music, even though
I'm not personally doing the

1313
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:55,680
science, I'm reviewing it for
other people and then

1314
01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:58,600
transmitting it.
And for me, that's just been a

1315
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:01,200
great adventure.
Yeah, one thing I was talking to

1316
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:05,360
Karen Barrett about who I just
recorded with three or 4

1317
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:10,680
episodes ago, was that she was
saying how her research followed

1318
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:13,840
her curiosity and trail of
interest rather than having an

1319
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:16,360
end goal in mind and just
trying, you know, with tunnel

1320
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:18,400
vision to get there.
And, and we're talking about how

1321
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,320
some of the most fun and
fulfilling and creative work and

1322
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,400
some of the most, you know,
progressive work, you know, that

1323
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,320
really, really pushes the
boundaries come from come from

1324
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:29,600
this place.
And, and you know, and then, you

1325
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,440
know, and people I love how you
describe as like a day job and a

1326
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:34,800
night job, but they all flow
into one another.

1327
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:36,640
And, you know, and ultimately,
you know, again, I ended up

1328
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:38,600
reaching out to you because of
your night, you know, because of

1329
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:40,480
your night job.
And you work on music too.

1330
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:44,640
So you know, the fact that the
fact that people I, I, I, you

1331
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:49,240
know, people feel like they have
a job that they're married to

1332
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:51,960
and that, you know, they don't
have time for themselves.

1333
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:57,840
And I think that we need to, you
know, we're having, I'm sure

1334
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:00,040
we're having, but we, you know,
what we can really use.

1335
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:03,320
And you know, this would be the
glass half full perspective of

1336
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,720
AI, you know, doing a lot of
work.

1337
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:08,640
Is that for a lot of people of
the question of what would you

1338
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:10,720
be able to do?
Because all of a sudden very

1339
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:12,240
real.
And the question is, isn't what,

1340
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:13,920
what, what you know, whether or
not you could do it.

1341
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:16,000
The question is, do you have the
courage to be able to do it?

1342
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:17,280
Or are you going to be able to
chase this?

1343
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:19,800
Or, you know, is this, are you,
are you comfortable?

1344
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:21,760
Is this inconvenient?
You know, like, do you feel, you

1345
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:23,640
know, I don't really feel like
getting up in front of a bunch

1346
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:25,960
of people or I don't really feel
like taking that chance at open

1347
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:28,760
mic and, and playing all woody
and clunky and, you know,

1348
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:31,120
feeling embarrassed in front of
everyone And like, so I'm not

1349
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:34,000
going to do that.
But I but, you know, I think

1350
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:36,560
that there's going to be so much
potential for, there's going to

1351
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:40,240
be, I hope, an exploration, an
explosion of just humanity as is

1352
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:41,520
really, really what I'm hoping
for.

1353
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:45,080
Yeah, because I mean, I'm the
kind of person who loves to be

1354
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:48,400
just really busy all the time.
And, and one of the nice things

1355
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,160
about being these two different
lives that I've got right now,

1356
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:54,120
it's I'm learning.
Both of those are informing each

1357
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,640
other.
I'm a much better public speaker

1358
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,680
now because I decided to take a
chance and do something a little

1359
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:03,200
wacky.
And I'm, and so that also

1360
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:05,720
translates into how I give talks
at scientific conferences, for

1361
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:07,680
example, on my, on the science I
do in my lab.

1362
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:11,280
And then vice versa, that my
interests in my lab are driving.

1363
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:13,480
Well, what's, how's that?
How's music affecting that?

1364
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:16,680
And then I can dig through the
literature and find things where

1365
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,120
that that over wraps.
But having said that, I, not

1366
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:23,720
everybody is insane as I am.
And so having like you said,

1367
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:27,080
these tools like AI, I, I think
it's going to be helpful for

1368
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:27,960
you.
It could be freeing.

1369
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,560
It could be freeing.
It could be freeing totally.

1370
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:32,359
I'll tell.
You the only thing I've used the

1371
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:36,200
AI for lately is this public
talk I give on the history of

1372
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:40,040
Alzheimer's work.
So I used one of the one of the

1373
01:08:40,279 --> 01:08:44,040
platforms to make some images.
And how was that?

1374
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:47,720
How do you find that?
My so my idea was to have a road

1375
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:49,960
called the amyloid plaque road,
right?

1376
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:52,880
OK.
And then have a turn off and

1377
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:56,080
have the car miss it and they
take a left and then take this

1378
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:58,840
left turn.
And I and I asked it to just

1379
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:02,359
have the car hit a brick wall.
So it drew this really bizarre

1380
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:05,560
brick wall right in the middle
of the road, nothing else around

1381
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:06,000
it.
Right.

1382
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,439
I was, I, I was about to like
tell it to do it again and like

1383
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,880
make it like a, a parking space
where it actually, but no, I

1384
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,080
thought, this is weird enough.
I just relieve it because the

1385
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:20,200
whole point is we went down that
path of research and which felt

1386
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,720
right for so long that we didn't
feel like we needed to take that

1387
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:24,520
turn off.
And then we hit the brick wall

1388
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,439
and that's exactly what it did.
And so then I had and then I had

1389
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:30,520
the car go back and find that
turn off again.

1390
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:34,040
And then I added a road said
said blood vessel changes and

1391
01:09:34,359 --> 01:09:35,920
diabetes and all these other
things.

1392
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:39,080
And then they converged to the
cure, right.

1393
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:42,680
So that to me, that was an
incredibly effective way for me

1394
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:44,800
because if I had to draw, that
would have taken me hours.

1395
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:47,120
Sure.
And and it's it was an

1396
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:50,640
incredible time saving tool.
It's the only thing.

1397
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:53,680
No, it's because I love it.
And I call the talk the long and

1398
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:55,120
winding Rd.
So that's also my.

1399
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:56,560
Lovely beetle.
Also another good one.

1400
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:58,800
So sure, sure, sure.
Coming from coming together,

1401
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:00,400
absolutely I get.
That, yeah, but.

1402
01:10:02,480 --> 01:10:05,480
I think I yeah, the other thing
I'm really passionate about is

1403
01:10:05,480 --> 01:10:08,440
education and alternative forms
of education, because I think

1404
01:10:08,440 --> 01:10:12,000
that I think that we're at a
point where we could really kind

1405
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:15,400
of customize and personalize an
enormous amount of education

1406
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:19,000
based on someone's preferences.
And I know for myself, I, you

1407
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:22,800
know, I was always, I always
loved the sound of the piano,

1408
01:10:23,440 --> 01:10:27,360
but.
And I started playing guitar at

1409
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:28,680
25.
I'm 30 now.

1410
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,720
So I started, I started taking
lessons at 25, about three years

1411
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:37,960
and two or three years.
And, but I always loved the

1412
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:40,840
piano, you know, and, and, and I
sat down the other day and my

1413
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:43,880
brother has a keyboard and I was
visiting home for Passover and I

1414
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:48,160
asked Chad GBT for just basic
scale practices and finger

1415
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:50,000
exercises to just get comfort on
the piano.

1416
01:10:50,440 --> 01:10:55,080
And I felt this incredible rush,
like almost like a weight

1417
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:56,880
falling off my shoulders while
I'm playing.

1418
01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:02,120
And I felt like, I was like, I,
I, I, I, I felt tangibly moved

1419
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:04,600
just from practicing and
playing.

1420
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:06,920
And I, I only, I put a timer on
for 10 minutes because that's

1421
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:08,480
all, you know, I thought was,
OK, I'm going to have to get

1422
01:11:08,480 --> 01:11:11,880
myself to, like, do this.
An hour went by and, you know,

1423
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:13,840
it felt like a blink.
Oh, yeah.

1424
01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:15,360
What?
What is that?

1425
01:11:16,440 --> 01:11:18,560
Yeah.
Well, and so that's another

1426
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:21,600
thing that I love about these,
these studies on on the effects

1427
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:24,360
of music and also personal
stories that people have come up

1428
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:26,040
to me with after I've given
these talks.

1429
01:11:26,440 --> 01:11:28,680
Sure.
Is that you're, you're doing

1430
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:33,520
something very focused that
involves fine and gross motor

1431
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:36,080
movements.
It involves sensory, you know,

1432
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:38,200
feeling things because think
about what your brain is doing

1433
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:39,480
when you're practicing an
instrument.

1434
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:41,720
All right, so let's say you're
reading music.

1435
01:11:42,480 --> 01:11:45,880
All right, so let's say you've
got music coming off of an iPad

1436
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:49,520
or a phone or, or a page.
So those photons have to go into

1437
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,520
your eyes, go to the back of
your eyes where your retina is.

1438
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:55,200
That's where all the cells that
you know, take in the light go.

1439
01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:58,000
That information has to go to
the very back of your brain

1440
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:00,840
recognized as stuff.
And then the rest of your brain

1441
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:02,880
like figures out what it all
means.

1442
01:12:03,440 --> 01:12:05,680
And then it transmits that
information to parts of your

1443
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:08,520
brain that plan what you're
going to do with your hands.

1444
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,000
And then that plan is put into a
program of motion and that's

1445
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:14,960
sent down your spinal cord all
the way to the ends of your

1446
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:17,280
fingertips.
And then you finally hit the the

1447
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:20,360
note or notes with your hands.
And then your hands are

1448
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:23,760
transmitting information back up
to your brain all the time up to

1449
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:25,920
your spinal cord, back up to
your brain to say, OK, he did it

1450
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:28,800
or he did it wrong, right.
And then you're, and then

1451
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,040
there's this part of your brain
that's emotionally responding to

1452
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:34,240
what hearing your, your ears are
processing information to let

1453
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:36,880
you hear what you've just played
and your brains processing it.

1454
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:38,880
And then you may also have an
emotional response like, I love

1455
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:40,680
this song or I hate this song,
right?

1456
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:44,400
All these things are happening
in picoseconds, right?

1457
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:48,040
And so, so when you're doing
that, what you're doing is

1458
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:50,680
you're challenging your brain in
ways that just other activities

1459
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:54,560
don't do as nearly as much.
And I think it's incredibly

1460
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:57,120
stimulating.
And it actually, you know, I've

1461
01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:01,080
talked to so many people who
great story.

1462
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:04,040
I, I, I was giving one of my
talks that afterwards this woman

1463
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:07,320
and her husband came up to me
and, and said, Hey, this is the

1464
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:08,560
second time we've seen your
talk.

1465
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:10,720
We saw the first time was about
six years ago.

1466
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:13,120
And I said, that's, that's
thanks for coming back.

1467
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:17,320
She says, well, we want to tell
you about what your first talk

1468
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:20,440
did for us because turns out she
had been a professional

1469
01:13:20,440 --> 01:13:25,880
violinist and she got in a car
accident and suddenly her motion

1470
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:28,600
was incredibly restricted.
And her doctor told her, you

1471
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:31,120
know, give up the piano.
I mean, give up the violin,

1472
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:34,120
It's, it's over.
And she got incredibly

1473
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:36,920
depressed, right?
And then they came and saw me

1474
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:39,760
talk about plasticity and how
the brain, you know, just

1475
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:41,720
practicing drives all these
changes.

1476
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:44,480
So her husband says, listen, OK,
maybe you're not going to play

1477
01:13:44,480 --> 01:13:47,720
the Brahms Violin Concerto
anymore, but maybe you could

1478
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:51,680
play bluegrass, right?
So she picked up her violin.

1479
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:55,720
And her husband shared with me.
It was painful because I had to

1480
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:58,200
listen to that sounding like a
cat being tortured to death.

1481
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:02,240
But she pushed herself to play
it again.

1482
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:04,480
And now she's in a blue.
And now she's in a bluegrass

1483
01:14:04,480 --> 01:14:08,720
band and she's and she's
incredibly happy, right?

1484
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:11,760
It changed her life.
And I think that's the power

1485
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:14,360
that musical practice and
musical accomplishment has.

1486
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:17,800
When you get to the point where
it's so motivating to try

1487
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:19,800
something and get to the point
where you succeed and then you

1488
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:21,680
go to the next thing and you
succeed again.

1489
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:24,040
And then you build on that and
build on that.

1490
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:26,800
And you know, I think that's an
incredibly powerful thing for

1491
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,000
our brains.
And it's actually physically

1492
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:31,200
changing our brains and and
benefiting them.

1493
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:34,480
Coming back to that question to
preserve right when you do these

1494
01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:37,880
things and challenge your brain
on your life, not only can it

1495
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:39,920
make you feel better, but it
actually gives your brain more

1496
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:43,040
resilience over time.
Yeah, yeah.

1497
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:44,880
Tell me about some of the bands
that you played in.

1498
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:47,920
It's some of the music you play.
So the first.

1499
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:50,080
I'm more into that.
I'm interested in that too.

1500
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:53,880
So the the first band I played
in was called Star Jammer.

1501
01:14:54,440 --> 01:14:56,320
Nice.
Wait, and where'd you grow up?

1502
01:14:56,320 --> 01:14:59,440
You grow up in OR in Oregon.
No, I grew up in La Jolla, CA

1503
01:14:59,440 --> 01:15:01,960
mostly.
I actually I was born in the Bay

1504
01:15:01,960 --> 01:15:04,160
Area.
We moved to upstate New York.

1505
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:05,800
We were in Westchester County
for a while.

1506
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:10,000
My my dad worked for IBM so he
was an Armoc.

1507
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:12,000
And I was in Rockland.
I grew up in Rockland.

1508
01:15:12,480 --> 01:15:15,520
There you go, there you go.
And then he got an opportunity

1509
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:18,320
to move out to LA.
And then in LA we finally moved

1510
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:21,440
to San Diego when I was, you
know, about 7 or 8 years old.

1511
01:15:21,440 --> 01:15:26,200
And so mostly San Diego.
So I my mornings were spent

1512
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:27,600
surfing.
Nice.

1513
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:30,640
I played some baseball.
I did everything you can do in

1514
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:34,240
San Diego in the sun all the
time, riding my bike around.

1515
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:38,640
But yeah, my first real band was
Star Jammer and we all had long

1516
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:40,480
feathered hair and everything
else.

1517
01:15:40,480 --> 01:15:43,600
And, and then I was in a new
age, a new way, not a new age

1518
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:47,960
new wave band called The
Pedestrians.

1519
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:51,360
That was actually really fun.
When I was in college, I used to

1520
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:55,240
play.
So it was rock, rock, new wave,

1521
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:59,720
that kind of stuff.
You know, this is back in the

1522
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:01,560
days when Quadrophenia first
came out.

1523
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:03,920
So we loved The Who and we loved
that kind of music as well.

1524
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,240
When I was in college, I hooked
up with a bunch of people who

1525
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:11,680
like to play Blues.
So we, we, I suppose, doing a

1526
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:13,200
lot of Blues and a little bit of
jazz.

1527
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:16,920
And then actually, it's funny,
when I was in Germany, I lived

1528
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:19,720
in Germany for 3 1/2 years for
my postdoctoral training.

1529
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:25,400
And we we formed a band and it
was me on on keyboards, a, a, a

1530
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:32,240
Dutch guy on saxophone, an
English guy on on bass, and then

1531
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:35,920
a Austrian guy on guitar.
So not one of us were Germans.

1532
01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:38,560
Nice.
So we called ourselves foreigner

1533
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:42,560
in Germany.
Wow that's that's a cool sound

1534
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:44,960
though.
The piano, guitar, sax and and

1535
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:46,960
bass.
It was awesome.

1536
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:50,080
And we did a lot of covers, of
course, and we made a lot of

1537
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:52,160
really funny songs about the
institute at parties and

1538
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:54,800
everything else.
And that was, you know, that was

1539
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:57,240
really fun.
And then over the years I've

1540
01:16:57,240 --> 01:16:59,560
done these and now I play the
piano and this, this talks I

1541
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:01,160
give.
So I, I and I play everything

1542
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:06,320
from classical to jazz to, to
pop stuff and get people singing

1543
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:07,960
and everything else.
So it's been all It's a lot of

1544
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,080
fun.
There's something about the

1545
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:12,960
piano, you know?
I'm a Springsteen nut.

1546
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:15,360
I'm a Dylan nut.
I'm a Grateful Dead nut.

1547
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:18,440
I'm a Van Morrison nut.
You and I have very similar

1548
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:20,440
playlists.
Yeah, I bet we do.

1549
01:17:20,440 --> 01:17:26,840
I bet we do.
And and the my favorite songs

1550
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:29,760
that these that these folk have
written in for example, Thunder

1551
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:34,920
Rd. or like a Rolling Stone.
These are written on the piano

1552
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:36,720
and then converted over to
guitar.

1553
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:42,520
Why do you think I feel like the
piano is a better instrument for

1554
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:46,520
songwriting than a guitar might
be?

1555
01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:49,560
Yeah.
And I think, and that's because

1556
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:51,920
think about what you're doing
when you're playing a piano.

1557
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:54,160
It's it's probably, it's pretty
challenging, right?

1558
01:17:54,160 --> 01:17:56,720
Because you've got these hands
that are opposites of each

1559
01:17:56,720 --> 01:17:58,720
other.
Our thumbs are both on the same

1560
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:00,640
side, right?
And our keys are on the opposite

1561
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:02,680
sides.
And so, you know, usually when

1562
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:05,600
you're playing piano, especially
with modern music, you're kind

1563
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:08,880
of replicating a bass line with
your left hand and you're

1564
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:10,480
playing the melody with your
right hand.

1565
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:14,440
And so it's really easy to kind
of put those together for a song

1566
01:18:14,440 --> 01:18:19,920
that you're going to now put
onto a band or or even an

1567
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:22,560
orchestra, right?
You can say here's the bass,

1568
01:18:22,560 --> 01:18:24,360
here's the rhythm, here's the
melody or whatever it is.

1569
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:28,360
Yeah, I mean, Beethoven often
composed at the piano, right,

1570
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:31,960
even when he was going deaf,
because he knew that he could

1571
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:35,040
get this kind of one set of
sounds on his left side and the

1572
01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:36,520
other sets of sounds on the
right side.

1573
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:39,160
So.
So it's it's it's a great

1574
01:18:39,160 --> 01:18:41,600
instrument for composing because
you've got both of that

1575
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:43,320
happening.
You know, with a guitar, you're

1576
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:47,360
limited to the one line, right?
The bass line or the OR or

1577
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:51,320
melody stricken, the chords are
struck taking away.

1578
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:55,480
But that's hard to do on on a on
a on a both both this things

1579
01:18:55,480 --> 01:18:58,600
sing together that kind of
instrument or you get a violin

1580
01:18:58,600 --> 01:18:59,640
or anything else.
So.

1581
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:02,760
So you think it's just a matter
so, so it's a matter of access

1582
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:06,640
and a matter of having your
entire, I guess the structure of

1583
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:08,960
a song laid out in front of you
with the piano that makes it

1584
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:10,600
that makes it easier to to
navigate.

1585
01:19:11,320 --> 01:19:12,320
Right.
And of course, you can sing at

1586
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:14,320
the same time, right?
So you could be playing bass

1587
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:17,800
line chords or accompanying the
melody and then singing the

1588
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:19,400
melody.
And so that makes it a really

1589
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:22,160
easy to compose at the piano.
If I mean George Gershwin,

1590
01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:24,880
another great example, right?
He often composed at the piano

1591
01:19:26,200 --> 01:19:29,520
and then his brother Ira would
try to find lyrics that match

1592
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:32,080
the music, which was always kind
of funny when you read their

1593
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:35,280
dummy lyrics that they would put
in and then they put it all

1594
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:37,440
together.
But but that was for that was

1595
01:19:37,440 --> 01:19:39,640
orchestral music, right?
That was stuff that was meant to

1596
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:43,080
be for a large number of
instruments that would be added

1597
01:19:43,080 --> 01:19:45,600
later once they kind of figured
it all out on something like a

1598
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:47,720
piano.
Cool, awesome.

1599
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:50,480
And the last question and then
I'll thank you for your time.

1600
01:19:50,480 --> 01:19:54,680
There's been so much fun.
Can you tell me a little bit a

1601
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:58,720
couple of fun facts about the,
the neuroscience of love for,

1602
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:00,920
for I think that I think it's a
really cool and interesting

1603
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:03,960
topic.
And maybe maybe some fun facts

1604
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:05,240
that we could talk about in a
couple of minutes.

1605
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:09,640
So, you know, if you think about
love, there's three major

1606
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:12,240
phases.
There's the the first, the

1607
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:15,640
meeting phase where you kind of
see somebody across a room and

1608
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:19,240
your eyes lock.
And that's situation, right?

1609
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:23,480
No, that comes next.
So, so it's so the first meeting

1610
01:20:23,480 --> 01:20:26,200
phase is where you just see
someone and, and there is this,

1611
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:28,680
this thing that happens, your
eyes lock on that person.

1612
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:31,440
And it involves circuitry in a
part of our brain that's right

1613
01:20:31,440 --> 01:20:32,760
here.
They're called the orbital

1614
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:36,080
frontal cortex.
And what's happening is if you

1615
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:38,480
actually, if it's going to work,
couple things have to be

1616
01:20:38,480 --> 01:20:41,240
happening. 1, you have to both
look at each other and stare

1617
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:43,920
under their eye, other eyes even
from across the room.

1618
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:49,480
And then if both of you happen
to be kind of in the same phase

1619
01:20:49,480 --> 01:20:52,360
hormonally?
Interesting, I think you both

1620
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:54,760
happen to be smiling if you're
both like in a social mindset or

1621
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:56,840
whatever like that.
Well, not just that.

1622
01:20:56,840 --> 01:20:59,560
Like for women?
You know.

1623
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:03,520
Physical hormonal stages, right
so where are you in your cycle?

1624
01:21:04,120 --> 01:21:06,320
There are start parts of the
cycle where you're going to be

1625
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:09,400
more attracted to one kind of
person, but maybe you'll be

1626
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:12,360
attracted to somebody else
visually attracted if you're in

1627
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:15,280
a different part of your cycle.
And it turns out men, it turns

1628
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:18,600
out men also have fluctuations
in their hormones that will like

1629
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:21,480
drive preferences for people
with like more feminine versus

1630
01:21:21,480 --> 01:21:24,720
more masculine features, which
is really interesting.

1631
01:21:25,440 --> 01:21:29,240
So all that has to be all right.
And so then you have so that's,

1632
01:21:29,480 --> 01:21:30,760
so that's the first phase,
right?

1633
01:21:30,760 --> 01:21:33,360
Just kind of meet and getting
like, oh, this is, this is this

1634
01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:34,880
person's interesting.
I want to go out with them.

1635
01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:37,240
So then you've had a few dates
and now you're at that

1636
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:39,040
infatuation phase that you
mentioned.

1637
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:41,880
And that is involving a whole
different set of

1638
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:45,600
neurotransmitters.
And it's almost like a disease

1639
01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:48,800
because you're thinking about
this person all the time, to the

1640
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:51,640
point where you're talking about
them to your friends and your

1641
01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:54,240
friends just wish you had shut
up already about this person,

1642
01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:57,880
almost.
School, whatever it is.

1643
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:01,120
And it's also becoming almost
intrusive because you're like at

1644
01:22:01,120 --> 01:22:03,480
work trying to get work done.
It's like, I wonder what she's

1645
01:22:03,480 --> 01:22:06,960
doing right now, you know, and
she's probably the, she's

1646
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:08,280
probably the same way,
hopefully.

1647
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:12,040
And there's other issues that
happen when they're not In Sync

1648
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:15,240
that way that change the
neurochemistry of that.

1649
01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:17,880
So if that all works out and you
go through that infatuation

1650
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:21,040
phase and all these things are
happening and it's actually

1651
01:22:21,040 --> 01:22:22,080
interesting.
It's interesting.

1652
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:26,320
The next phase is commitment.
So there's all this really

1653
01:22:26,320 --> 01:22:30,760
interesting data suggesting that
certain genes make people more

1654
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:33,120
likely to become committed in
relationships.

1655
01:22:33,320 --> 01:22:35,240
And if you don't have those
genes or if you have a change in

1656
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:37,680
those genes, you're really, it's
really hard for you to get

1657
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:41,120
committed and you wind up going
back on that roller coaster all

1658
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:43,960
over again.
And so this was actually

1659
01:22:43,960 --> 01:22:47,560
demonstrated really fascinating
work in these little rodents

1660
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:52,480
called Prairie bowls.
So rodents are not generally

1661
01:22:52,480 --> 01:22:55,520
monogamous.
They, they fool around a lot,

1662
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:56,720
right?
That's why there's so many of

1663
01:22:56,720 --> 01:23:00,520
them.
And so there's these animals

1664
01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:02,880
called they're voles.
They're these very cute animals.

1665
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:06,440
And there's one type of Ole, not
all voles, one type of Ole

1666
01:23:06,440 --> 01:23:09,120
called the Prairie vole.
And it turns out that they kind

1667
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:12,960
of bond for life and the males
even help rear the the

1668
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:15,920
offspring.
And they found out there's this

1669
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:20,680
one particular gene in in these
voles that seems to dictate that

1670
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:23,280
behavior.
And then they looked at men who

1671
01:23:23,280 --> 01:23:26,880
were in relationships that were
like steady relationships versus

1672
01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:28,880
men that just could never make a
commitment.

1673
01:23:29,080 --> 01:23:34,200
And it turns out they had that
mutation in that gene that for

1674
01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:36,440
people while they were calling
it the divorce gene.

1675
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:40,960
And which is not accurate, but
there's more to that.

1676
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:44,160
But but it's remarkable.
So it's like it really brings

1677
01:23:44,160 --> 01:23:47,080
back questions about how our
genes dictate our behavior and

1678
01:23:47,080 --> 01:23:49,280
our personalities more than we
probably think they do.

1679
01:23:50,080 --> 01:23:53,520
So some of me.
Genetically genetically disposed

1680
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:57,880
to non to being committed or not
committed Non committal non

1681
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:00,680
committal rather.
Yeah, that's kind of amazing and

1682
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:05,200
kind of disturbing.
So, so, so then it's like, you

1683
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:07,680
know, once you get to that
committed phase, there's all

1684
01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:10,040
these other genes that come into
place that, you know, I've been

1685
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:12,400
with my wife for 30 years now or
over 30 years.

1686
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:17,280
And, and I just feel really at
ease when we're together and,

1687
01:24:17,280 --> 01:24:19,800
you know, Despite that, but
there are some people who never

1688
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:22,240
get there, right?
They never had that sense of

1689
01:24:22,240 --> 01:24:23,840
ease with the person that
they're with.

1690
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:27,880
And so that's, that's turns out
our genes kind of dictate that

1691
01:24:27,880 --> 01:24:30,480
to a degree.
So, so it's just a fascinating

1692
01:24:30,480 --> 01:24:34,760
area and and you know, when you
think about pleasure and how

1693
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:37,440
that relates to love, I mean,
it's a lot of the same thing.

1694
01:24:37,440 --> 01:24:40,280
It's like this feeling of
reward, dopamine comes back into

1695
01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:43,480
the picture again, reward system
when you're, when you feel like

1696
01:24:43,480 --> 01:24:45,440
you're with this person and it's
like just a rewarding

1697
01:24:45,440 --> 01:24:48,120
experience.
So it's a lot of the same

1698
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:49,840
chemistry.
And I always related to like

1699
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:52,280
compare that to eating a piece
of chocolate, right?

1700
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:56,280
You get to a point where you've
had too much chocolate.

1701
01:24:56,960 --> 01:24:58,600
It doesn't mean you stop liking
chocolate.

1702
01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:00,600
You just need to stop eating the
chocolate for a little while.

1703
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:03,520
And then later on you can have
some more chocolate until you

1704
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:07,360
get sick.
So, but yeah, it's, it's, it's

1705
01:25:07,480 --> 01:25:09,440
it, it's an amazing area of
research.

1706
01:25:09,440 --> 01:25:12,280
And I love, I love getting, of
course, I always give that talk

1707
01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:14,200
on Valentine's Day because
that's, you know.

1708
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:17,720
Of course, of course.
That's super cool.

1709
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:20,800
Wow, so much fun, so much time
to think about.

1710
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:22,080
Also, there's so many different
layers.

1711
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:24,480
And you talk to 100 people and
I'll tell you not even 100

1712
01:25:24,480 --> 01:25:27,080
people, but you know, I mean,
there's also the psychological

1713
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:30,640
aspect of it of kind of like the
familiarity versus not.

1714
01:25:30,640 --> 01:25:33,800
And then they're growing into,
you know, a different sense of

1715
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:36,000
relationship.
And then there's the I've heard

1716
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:38,320
that smell has a lot to do with
attraction.

1717
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:39,640
And enormous.
Amount.

1718
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:40,080
Yeah.
So that's.

1719
01:25:40,080 --> 01:25:41,200
So that's the other thing.
And that's.

1720
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:43,440
And that's partly hormonally
driven, interestingly.

1721
01:25:43,440 --> 01:25:46,800
So depend on where you are in
the cycle, certain smells are

1722
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:48,440
going to be more attractive than
others.

1723
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:50,880
And taste.
And it turns out it tastes too.

1724
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:53,480
When you kiss somebody, turns
out, you know, kissing is not

1725
01:25:53,480 --> 01:25:55,120
something humans have done all
along.

1726
01:25:55,120 --> 01:25:57,080
It's it's something they figured
out later.

1727
01:25:57,080 --> 01:26:00,880
But when you kiss somebody,
you're you're sampling the taste

1728
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:03,880
of their saliva and there's
molecules in the saliva that

1729
01:26:03,880 --> 01:26:06,560
actually may dictate you came
back to the question of

1730
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:09,080
compatibility, right?
Like, yeah, to make sure you

1731
01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:11,440
don't have taste socks.
So it turns out that you're

1732
01:26:11,440 --> 01:26:13,320
actually tasting immune
competence.

1733
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:16,120
Wow.
And and so recognize.

1734
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:20,640
That right, Yeah, unless we,
unless we or like subconsciously

1735
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:22,880
do.
You do subconsciously because

1736
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:25,240
it's a bitter taste when you're
not compatible.

1737
01:26:25,480 --> 01:26:27,720
Wow, so.
So, so it's, it's really

1738
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:29,400
remarkable.
And then there's this really

1739
01:26:29,400 --> 01:26:32,120
funny thing that was going on
for a while several years ago

1740
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:34,600
where that's coming back to
smell, right?

1741
01:26:35,320 --> 01:26:37,560
They would actually have people
spend their day like sweating

1742
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:40,120
into these shirts.
And then you would take your

1743
01:26:40,120 --> 01:26:42,520
shirt off and put it into a bag
with just a number on it.

1744
01:26:42,800 --> 01:26:44,720
And then somebody would come and
smell the shirt.

1745
01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:48,240
And if they had that, if they,
if it smelled sweet to them,

1746
01:26:48,960 --> 01:26:51,840
you're more compatible, right?
So cool.

1747
01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:54,200
That's amazing.
They should make a Netflix

1748
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:56,400
dating show based on this.
You should pitch this to

1749
01:26:56,400 --> 01:26:57,520
Netflix.
That's what you should do.

1750
01:26:57,680 --> 01:27:00,160
That would be your next big
after after the you know, you

1751
01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:01,720
did the book, you're doing all
this talking.

1752
01:27:01,720 --> 01:27:02,920
You do it.
You're doing the scores, you're

1753
01:27:02,920 --> 01:27:05,840
doing the research.
I think that a Netflix show

1754
01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:10,880
based on the neurochemistry of
love and mixing with mixed above

1755
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:12,640
with love is blind.
Would be.

1756
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:13,800
There you go.
There you go.

1757
01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:15,200
There you go.
Wow.

1758
01:27:15,200 --> 01:27:17,880
OK, If we find that in Netflix
in a couple of years, then we

1759
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:18,960
know where they came up with
that idea.

1760
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:23,840
I'll give you credit.
Doctor, Doctor Larry Sherman,

1761
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:26,440
this is so much fun.
Thank you so much for such an

1762
01:27:26,440 --> 01:27:29,680
awesome and informative and
entertaining conversation.

1763
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:32,600
And I hope to stay in touch and
I hope to be able to do this

1764
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:34,600
again down the line.
And I'm sure that a lot's going

1765
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:36,360
to change and there's going to
be a lot of exciting things to

1766
01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:37,880
talk about, so.
Got you.

1767
01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:39,560
That was really fun.
I really enjoyed it.

1768
01:27:39,560 --> 01:27:39,960
Thanks.
So.

1769
01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:41,240
Much.
Yeah, of course, of course.

1770
01:27:41,240 --> 01:27:42,080
Take care.
Have a great day.

1771
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:43,080
Thanks for the time you too.