Science Series 6: Sidney Perkowitz / AI & Replicating Humanity / UFO’s / Science Ed & Sci-fi

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Welcome to another episode of
Come Together.

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Doctor Sidney Perkowitz, welcome
to the show.

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I'm so happy to have you on.
How are you today?

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Thank you for a pleasure to be
here and you're looking hell and

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hard to yourself.
Thank you very much.

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I appreciate that.
I, I'm particularly excited to

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talk to you because my whole
life I thought I was bad at

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science until I've found better
ways or ways that spoke more to

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me about the way that the
material is being handed over

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or, you know, I don't know the
different types of formats.

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And then I realized I didn't
hate science.

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I really enjoyed it.
I just was not good at doing it

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in the, you know, typical
classroom setting.

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And, and I see that you spent a
ton of your career really

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focused on, you know, aside from
actual science and research,

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alternative forms of education.
And so I'm really excited to be

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able to hear about your
experience and what got you into

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that.
And it was interesting to pick

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up on why you said to find a
different way to do science that

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reached out more to people who
aren't scientists.

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And that's something that needs
to be done.

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So we're on the same wavelength
on that.

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My personal story is I I love
scientific research.

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I was a pretty good teacher.
But when I hit age 50, I thought

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it was time to look in a
different direction.

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I'd always wanted to write, so I
started writing that year. 50th

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birthday is a big deal.
I'd also published my 100th

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research paper.
I figured that was a good

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landmark.
Congratulations that.

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Was awesome, yeah.
So see that.

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So you started writing and was
it daunting to switch careers?

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How do you want to go about
tackling, you know, like, how'd

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you decide to be creative in the
fashion that you were?

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You know, I mean, I feel like a
lot of, a lot of people,

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especially if they were doing
research or they were in the

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university setting, they would
just kind of write a book, maybe

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a textbook or, you know, maybe
they'll, they'll, you know,

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their self, you know, they, they
publish a book about what they,

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what they think.
But you've done some fun things

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like writing, you know, scripts
for, for plays and, you know,

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and, and, and film things.
What?

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How did you get involved in
that?

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It was partly that I hadn't done
all the scientific writing.

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I published, as I said, that
many papers and some books that

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was purely for other scientists
that were technical books, and I

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figured I had mastered that kind
of writing.

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I really wanted to do something
new.

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Also, as a kid I was a big
reader, and although science

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always attracted me, Joe did the
great fiction writers I was.

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I was a big fan of of many of
the household names that are

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considered great storytellers,
and somehow that was a second

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ambition for me.
So it seemed natural to drift

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into writing.
But doing science.

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I don't think I'm creative
enough to write a novel.

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I am creative enough to write
about science in an interesting

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way, or so I hope.
That's amazing.

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Well, I bet, I bet.
The truth is I haven't, I

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haven't read any of it yet, but
I, I do, I do have to check it

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out.
But I mean, I see that there's a

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tie.
I mean, your website is just

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filled with, with different fun
projects that you've done and

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circling back on the your, your
appreciation for science fiction

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or for science in general
growing up.

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I was talking to a gentleman the
other day and I'm so upset

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because I forget, I'm forgetting
his name.

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And he was a scientist and a
science, a science comedian.

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He was, you know, he, he, he was
very, very funny and he, most of

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his jokes were geared around
actual science.

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And that was another stick that
he did that from a scientific

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perspective.
It's really important to have

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these fun fake worlds, you know,
like these sci-fi worlds that

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encourage scientists to try to
bring that fiction into reality

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and to, you know, inspires
people and gives them ideas for

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a world that could be.
And then how to kind of, you

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know, back engineer it and
reverse and reverse track on it.

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Do you find that to be the case?
Absolutely.

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It's a great point.
I thought at some point we'd end

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up talking about what I think
about science fiction, and what

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you just said ties into that.
If you go to a science fiction

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film, science and it may or may
not be very active accurate,

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often it's but kids who watch it
get inspired, they get turned

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on.
There's a famous research in

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robotics who says the minute she
saw R2D2, she said she wanted to

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do that.
So that's exactly the story that

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you said.
It can be a great incentive.

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It's so it's not necessarily
spreading correct science, but

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that's secondary toward to
inspiring or exciting people

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about it.
Yeah, definitely.

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I saw, I forgot I was reading a
book.

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I did a podcast with a gentleman
and a journalist named Tom

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Sucker and he wrote and he
writes about Hollywood's

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relationship to various
government agencies

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historically.
And you know, some of you know,

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some of it for better, some of
it for worse.

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But one of the very interesting
phenomenon, for example, was

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like with Top Gun, when Top Gun
originally came out in theaters.

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I think you know, the the Air
Force set up some, you know,

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stands outside the movie
theaters and in a touch for

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recruiting.
And if anyone had any questions,

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I've been to the movie.
They were interested in pursuing

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a career and enlistment went up
like a couple of 100%, you know,

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in the weeks, in the weeks
following.

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I mean, that's incredible.
You know that there's no

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scientific event you could name.
Book, podcast, movie, whatever

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that reaches as many people as
one even middle, middle level

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movie.
It does not need to be the big

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world's biggest blockbuster.
You see millions of people, so

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it's a tremendous channel to get
the word out.

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Yeah, yeah, certainly,
certainly.

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What were some specific movies
that that that inspired you

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growing up for for science, for
for either creative purposes or

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that genuinely interest
interested you scientifically?

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Well, for me it worked
differently.

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I'm old enough that that that we
still that we still doing B

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level science fiction movies and
I mostly B level.

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They were not major films.
So some of the a lot of them

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were fun.
You even knew that the science

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was wrong, completely wrong, but
you enjoyed it anyway.

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So I'm also got interested 1st
through books.

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There was an old science fiction
author, Robert Heinlein, who was

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my real favorite.
He got me into it that way.

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Eventually the films came along.
2001 certainly had its impact,

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but by that time I was already a
practicing scientist.

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So there's a mixture of books
and movies, but books had a huge

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impact on me.
Right, Right, right.

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Right.
Yeah.

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And there's, and there's also,
especially in this world of

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science and, and this fictional
world, building our imagination

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tends to work a lot more in, you
know, with a lot more vibrancy

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than than a screen usually
could, especially in the early

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2000s or the 90s or 80s.
For sure, Yeah.

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And when you think about this,
the wonderful special effects

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you can do in the film, really
no book can match that.

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It's amazing what Hollywood does
to make the dream seem real.

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It's just phenomenal.
CGI in a way, in a way is lost.

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I think films depend on it a
little too much and maybe forget

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about things like
characterization, but it's a

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tremendous bonus for science
fiction films.

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You can have the weirdest idea
and show it on screen in a

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convincing and compelling way.
That's marvelous.

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Yeah, it's a ton of fun.
And, and, and then there's, and

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then there's various actual
education purposes, right?

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Because you have films that are
there to kind of inspire new

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ideas.
And then there's films that are

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there to teach people on a mass
level about, about, you know,

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about, about how using
scientific science as solutions

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to, to, to, to solving problems
in the world.

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And there was a, there's a very
interesting phenomenon that if

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you tend to see in films or
television shows or any kind of,

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you know, anything that would
require an agency's regulation

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or authority to publish.
If you see, if you tend to see

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NASA, their that the, the focus
is, the focus is typically on

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education.
And if you see a Department of

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Defense or you see the FBI or
the CIA or Homeland Security,

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then you tend to be in a little
bit more of a Marvel esque

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superhero world in which
science, science and defence

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and, and, and military in war
unify and, and, and serve to, to

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protect humanity.
And it feels like though, like

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those, like those, those a lot
of these technologies are

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starting to really become quite,
I mean, they're, they're coming

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to fruition in really cool ways.
I've written a lot about about

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what used to be in science
fiction, ideas that have become

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real.
And we've reached the point, not

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only science fiction ideas,
fantasy ideas which are less

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quoted in science.
So Harry Potter has an

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invisibility cloak people have
made.

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OK, they're not full size.
They wouldn't cover Harry Potter

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or you, you or me.
But they can cover tiny objects

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in such a way that they're
invisible.

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So that's just one example of
fantasy becoming reality.

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Yeah, it's very cool.
I mean, I think that there's

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even, I mean there, there kind
of even the implication, I think

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even within Harry Potter that it
seems that the wizard, the

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Wizards are more of an advanced,
like they're, it seems like

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they're just more advanced
technologically.

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It doesn't feel like the magic
can't be attributed to science

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in any kind of particular way,
you know?

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And there's this famous quote
from I'm thinking who said it,

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that if the technology is
advanced enough, it it seems

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like magic anyway.
So right, it all merges, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, right.
Sorry, please.

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But but speaking as a scientist
and as a person interested in

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educating, it's nice to
appreciate it and it feels like

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magic.
That's great.

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It's fun.
It's even better, I think, to

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see it on the second level,
which is I understand what's

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really going on and what's
happening in the real world

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that's making this fantastic
effect.

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Certainly.
Certainly I never appreciated

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music to the same degree until I
started playing an instrument,

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you know?
Exactly.

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You get into the weeds and then
you learn what's really going

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on.
I think you have a deeper

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understanding what urinalogy is
a great one.

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Once you've learned I I played a
little guitar.

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I am not a great musician.
I'll never even be a good

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musician.
But I appreciate it now what a

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real musician can do.
Certainly, yeah.

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I mean, and I think that the
more that, and that's part of

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the fun of learning in general
is, is, is the, is the

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enthusiasm that comes with, with
realizing that everything could

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is this whole little universe in
it of itself.

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And no matter where you look,
you can look, I I mean, you

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could spend your entire life
just researching your backyard

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and just be absolutely blown
away, you know, every, every,

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every couple of days with what
you discover.

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And I mean, it's, it's
incredible.

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There's the Zen idea that that
the master tells the student to

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do something like put a vase in
front of you, look at it for six

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hours.
You will learn things you didn't

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believe you would have learned
just by looking at the vase.

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So it's it's that kind of thing.
Yeah, definitely.

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So can you tell me a little bit
about the science that you were

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that you were you were
researching while while you were

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practicing?
Yeah, it was actually, it was a

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science that you don't hear
enough about and yet it's a

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science that surrounds us.
So at one level, physical is

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about the biggest concepts the
have, the universe began how

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well and all of that.
There's another level which

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deals with the stuff actually
around us, the matter.

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I was a condensed matter
physicist.

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These I studied solids and
liquids, not so much gases.

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That's a little bit different.
And that's the sciences behind

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our entire technology.
That's a scientist that gave us

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integrated circuits for good and
real.

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It gave us integrated circuits
and smartphones and everything

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that's come out of that.
So I I studied materials that

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were interesting in themselves
and also were good for

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technology.
That's the kind of science I

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did.
What motivated you just to to

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head down that path?
How'd you how'd you decide to

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study that?
And I actually was very much a

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personal, personal choice.
The people who do the, the large

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00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:48,360
scale science, huge telescopes
and observatories, atom smashers

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00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:53,360
like CERN usually have to work
in groups of 1050, a hundred, a

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thousand.
I wanted to do my own research

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on my own tabletop, small scale,
but all mine.

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But then that's what and I was
able to do that on what I did.

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You can study the properties
matter with tabletop equipment

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and come up with deep science.
So it was a personal appeal as

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far as I'm concerned.
And then, and then how would you

242
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,280
find your way wandering down
particular paths?

243
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And one of the reasons why I ask
is because I've interviewed a

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00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,360
couple of scientists on the show
and some of them have said that

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00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,680
they've started with a
hypothesis or and you know,

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00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:30,680
something, they have a location
that they want to get to and

247
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then their careers about finding
the way to get there.

248
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,080
And then there are those who
said that they started with a

249
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particular interest with no
destination in mind and would

250
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,320
kind of just chase whatever
spoke to them at the moment.

251
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,600
So whether that was, you know,
neurology and music and the, and

252
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,560
the relationship between, you
know, the, the, between music

253
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:55,160
therapy and, and park and
Parkinson's or dementia and, and

254
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,200
you know, to, to cochlear
implants and stuff like that.

255
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,960
And all of this was basically
just following intuition.

256
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,040
How would you determine what to
you know what what actual path

257
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,320
to follow?
It was more the second one, not

258
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,000
starting with a hypothesis and
wanting to pursue that and prove

259
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,280
it, but being in the general
area.

260
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,280
I was interested in how material
behaves, and I like the fact

261
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that it affected real life right
into technology.

262
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So I that was my general area.
And then you look for problems

263
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:33,360
that that need to be solved #1
#2 but every scientist will tell

264
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,720
you, but you don't.
You don't realize until you're

265
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,520
in the game who will pay for you
to do it.

266
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,240
So you've got to go and find the
government grant.

267
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,120
So and what's that project like?
Too, Yeah.

268
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,480
Can you explain, can you can you
can you break down with the

269
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,840
process of getting funding as a
scientist is like.

270
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,040
I'm sorry, say that again, do do
I?

271
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,800
I'm sorry, can you explain what
the process of getting funding

272
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,320
as a scientist is like?
Yeah.

273
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,560
So if you're an academic, if
you're an industrial scientist,

274
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a company's paying you to do
research.

275
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,480
And usually it's directed
research they'd like.

276
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They'd like to know the research
will lead to a product for them.

277
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,760
So there's less choice, but
there's often very good funding

278
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,960
for you.
You can bet that Google puts a

279
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,600
lot of money into AI and Ford,
Ford puts a lot of money into

280
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,920
making electric car, better
electric cars and so on.

281
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,960
If you're an academia, you have
to come with an idea.

282
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,560
You go to a government agency.
The NIH is is the biggest one,

283
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,440
but there's National Science
Foundation, there's Department

284
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,000
of Energy, and so on.
A panel of experts reviews your

285
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,440
proposal.
If they think it shows promise,

286
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,320
you get money that that's the
basic ball game.

287
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,320
Wow, I see.
And are they risk averse in this

288
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,480
project?
How do how do they determine who

289
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,720
gets who gets what?
That's really, Yeah.

290
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,640
That's really an excellent
question.

291
00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,720
There's constant debate about
does this system encourage stuff

292
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,080
that's only sure to work, or
does it encourage stuff that

293
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,600
that could shoot for the moon?
And it's a delicate balance to

294
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,080
try to match, Yeah.
The the the the exact.

295
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,040
The reason I'm asking is because
I'm a big fan of the

296
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,960
entertainment world and I know
having read and interviewed

297
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,120
people, one of the one of the
time timeless arguments in the

298
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,160
entertainment world is the
studios want something surefire

299
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,000
and the creatives want something
new.

300
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,800
The the studios are adverse to
risk and I could only imagine

301
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:24,440
that applies to a lot of other
industries.

302
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,480
That was just the basis.
That was where I was coming

303
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:27,720
from.
Exactly.

304
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,040
It carries over exactly.
But but as I'm thinking of an

305
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,120
answer, I'm reminded that I
actually, I dealt with that in

306
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,120
my own way and it worked for me.
I'll tell you what it was.

307
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,680
I'd always try to have all these
two projects going, one that I

308
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,040
was sure would get funded and
one that maybe would have

309
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:45,920
wouldn't, but really interested
me.

310
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,280
So I was always some some money
come.

311
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,560
It's like being being in a
marriage where you both have an

312
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,960
income, one of you who uses the
job, you still have some money

313
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,880
coming and should always be some
money coming in.

314
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,160
And I could go with the blue Sky
One and maybe eventually that we

315
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,160
get funded too.
So can you give me some examples

316
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,240
of some fun stuff that you that
you that was more risky and some

317
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,280
stuff that was more, that was
more, I guess stable or secure?

318
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,359
The the more secure stuff, there
were two classes of materials

319
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,920
that are very important in
technology and I studied both of

320
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,119
them.
One is semiconductors and now

321
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,240
that's what goes into integrated
circuits and chips.

322
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,640
And the other superconductors
which know from the name and and

323
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,560
what you read about them in in
the media work only at very low

324
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,440
temperature is so they have less
commercial application.

325
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,400
So I work in both the
semiconductor money could almost

326
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:43,880
research could almost always get
money.

327
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,320
The superconductor was iffier.
I see there was there was no

328
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,680
guarantee that it would ever
turn into anything practical.

329
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,920
And yet it has because now for
quantum computing, they're

330
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,480
talking about using
superconductivity for some of

331
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,760
the computers.
So this very far out unusual

332
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,640
idea, which requires tremendous,
incredible refrigeration turns

333
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,040
out to be perhaps be a viable
consumer idea someday.

334
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,280
So interesting areas, yeah.
That's really, you know, one

335
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,520
thing I, I was just reading, I
was reading a book called The

336
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,120
Empire of AI and it's, it was
pretty good.

337
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:23,960
It was, it was, it's, and it's
generally it's, it's a book

338
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,360
about with written by an
investigative tech journalist

339
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:32,200
about open AI.
And one of the things that she

340
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,320
devotes quite a bit of time to
is how much energy AI data

341
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,880
centers take up and how and how
much energy is required for our,

342
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,200
you know, for the, for chat, you
know, for the various versions

343
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:47,520
of say ChatGPT or cloud or what
have you to run that we're going

344
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,520
to need.
So we're spending a ton of money

345
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,880
now on cooling, using, I think
having to use clean water, I

346
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,360
believe, I think and, and, and,
and maybe Elon Musk was talking

347
00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:00,480
about putting them in space so
that they don't need cooling.

348
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,000
Do you know anything about that?
I know a lot about it because

349
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,640
just wrote an article about it.
Perfect.

350
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,680
Well, maybe you could help.
Yeah, you'll have to shut me up

351
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,600
on this one, I'm telling you.
Okay, let's devote a long, long

352
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,760
article about it.
Everything you said is correct.

353
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,040
The amount of the amount of
electrical power that AI will

354
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:24,040
use by 20-30 is projected to be
a significant, small, but

355
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,840
significant percentage, like 3
or 4% of the entire electricity

356
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,920
output of the entire world.
So that's huge just for one

357
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,920
industry.
On top of that, you've got to

358
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:40,080
use millions of gallons of water
to cool these hyper gigantic,

359
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,680
right?
Yeah, clean water.

360
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,560
And then you put it on the
environment.

361
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,680
It's hot water.
That's not good for the

362
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,720
environment either.
So there are a lot of issues

363
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,960
around it.
There are cities that are saying

364
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,760
do not build an AI plant near
anywhere near us.

365
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,800
It's just going to be bad news
all all around.

366
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:05,400
So, so yes, it's a real issue
and AI is a whole issue for for

367
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,880
many, many, many reasons, not
just for.

368
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:13,280
Of course, I don't need to tell
you or or our listeners at every

369
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,160
everyone who reads newspapers
aware of that, of course.

370
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,640
Sure, sure.
And as and As for alternative

371
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,840
methods of cooling because
that's how we got to this topic.

372
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,000
But you know, I've heard that
the two methods right now are

373
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:30,080
underwater and in space.
And I don't know maybe how how

374
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,240
either one of them would
hypothetically be viable.

375
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,640
But you mentioned that the
supercomputing that is the Super

376
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,800
compute conducting that you were
doing was tied into that

377
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:39,960
somehow.
Yeah, yes.

378
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:46,640
So if you made a superconducting
computer, 1 plus is it uses much

379
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,000
less energy to compute much.
Less energy.

380
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,600
That I'm sorry.
I'm asking you said much less

381
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,840
energy to compute you.
Said much less energy to

382
00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,120
compute, but you need energy to
run the refrigeration and keep

383
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:03,480
it at the low temperatures.
So there's a good side and the

384
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,440
bad side.
I think you'll end up ahead on

385
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,640
the energy balance, but it's
still a question whether we will

386
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,840
ever have two superconducting or
superconducting quantum

387
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,160
computers.
So that's the answer to that is

388
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,280
still a big question mark.
Putting them in space is just a

389
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,840
non starter from if you think of
what it costs to just send up 1

390
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,360
LB of stuff for a NASA mission,
there's no way we'll have major

391
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:32,400
manufacturing facilities in
space for a long, long, long

392
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,160
time.
That is not going to happen.

393
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,960
Well, I, I understand so, so the
to put a manufacturing facility

394
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,240
for sure will take it will be
decades, I'm sure, if not more.

395
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:51,920
But if you, if I'm Elon Musk and
I, you know, and Elon Musk is

396
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,080
directly involved in pretty much
every like every aspect of the

397
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,200
supply chain for all of the, you
know, for all of the AI, which

398
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:01,560
is incredible.
It's really crazy.

399
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,360
And to watch also throughout the
years, how each piece kind of

400
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:09,200
came together is remarkable.
But if he, if he said, you know,

401
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:14,800
it's if it's more efficient, if
it's, if it's taking up less of

402
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,960
earths energy, it's cleaner.
And I could be the first person

403
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,080
to put a couple of data centers
in space and to see how much

404
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,360
energy we save by not needing to
cool it.

405
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,520
You don't see that being
anything that he that he'd be

406
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,080
potentially interested in, in
trying to, you know, even just

407
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,040
for the sake of doing of
trailblazing, which you know,

408
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,240
that he loves to do.
If someone could get the money

409
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,080
together to put together some
kind of a facility in space and

410
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,960
make it happen, it'd be a great
technical feat.

411
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,400
No question about that.
To have enough of them floating

412
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:50,920
around would take trillions.
There's an initial investment, I

413
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,120
think that that would be a huge
value.

414
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:56,640
And there's one other point.
OK, you you don't have to cool

415
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,560
it, but it's still generating
heat, which radiates out into

416
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,960
space.
We already have a problem with

417
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,720
too many satellites around our
planet.

418
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,920
There's no problem.
Yes, it's a problem.

419
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,000
It's a problem for astronomers,
and it's actually a problem for

420
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,640
space travel because you need to
make sure if you want to rock

421
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,040
it, you're not going to hit one
of these satellites that are

422
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,600
floating around.
If you and I have satellites

423
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,920
that are radiating huge amounts
of energy, gigawatts, that's not

424
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,280
necessarily something you want
and then in our sky either.

425
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,880
But I think there's an orphan
solution and maybe, maybe must

426
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,880
have this in mind.
I'll suggest it to him if he

427
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,800
asked me, but I'll tell you for
free what it is.

428
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,240
It is.
You put joint reflectors in

429
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,400
space and beam beam the power
down to whatever place needs the

430
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,440
power on Earth.
And that's been considered too.

431
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,800
Is that is that basically
function the same way as

432
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,680
satellite works?
Satellites trade a little bit of

433
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,680
energy back and forth because
they're sending radio signals

434
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,440
back and forth.
When I'm talking about a big

435
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,640
reflector the size of a football
field that takes sunlight and

436
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,080
beams it down to Earth, it's
converted to electricity.

437
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,080
You get free electricity and you
don't need to burn fossil fuel

438
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,160
to do it.
It's it's basically solar power

439
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,280
done from space.
Wow.

440
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,520
That.
Sounds really cool about that.

441
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:29,480
Yeah, Yeah, cool indeed.
Wow, it's so much fun because

442
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,520
again, you know, I'm watching
these Amazon TV shows or I'm

443
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,720
watching these Apple TV shows
and even the and what's most

444
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,040
what's most fun about a lot of
these, you know, these

445
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,400
interesting fake worlds is that
we're not too far.

446
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,160
Again, they all feel pretty real
and tangible.

447
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:47,960
I don't know if you watched the
show Severance, which was about

448
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:53,280
Apple TV show about the
splitting of minds between work

449
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,960
and out of work life and you
have two, two totally different.

450
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,720
Persons, I've heard about it.
It kind of, yeah.

451
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,560
It got a lot of attention.
I did not watch it, but I kind

452
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,320
of know the basic scheme.
Yeah, yeah.

453
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,480
So.
Yeah, I think I, I think that I,

454
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:15,080
I mean, I, I don't think it is
beyond, I don't think the chance

455
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:16,400
is zero.
I don't think it's a crazy thing

456
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,160
to say that the technology can
evolve soon, that that would

457
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,360
pretty much be the case that you
can kind of switch your

458
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:24,800
consciousness on and on, you
know, different degrees of your

459
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,680
awareness on and off for work.
I, I don't know, I don't, I

460
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,880
don't know what I think about
that, but it feel, you know, it

461
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,880
really, you really get to
thinking.

462
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,720
And then when you watch a lot of
the evolution of technology.

463
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,880
I had a woman on the podcast, a
doctor, doctor Lisa Gable, I

464
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,800
believe out of Lafayette
University.

465
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:47,720
And she told me that in 2010,
sixteen years ago, that she and

466
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:53,240
engineering professor got teamed
up and they used a hat.

467
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,440
They're using EEG waves to
control, to control a drone, you

468
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,760
know, just using their just
using electrical waves.

469
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,760
I mean, that was 2010.
I mean, you know, I mean, it's,

470
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,720
it's incredible to see where we
could be.

471
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:11,440
They've even gone beyond that.
The EEG works, but since the

472
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,040
city has to go through the
skull, it's not the finest level

473
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,880
of control.
What they've done now is they

474
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,680
actually put a chip inside the
brains of people who, for

475
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,800
instance, are paralyzed and the
ship overcomes some of the the

476
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,120
neural problems that can
certainly move all their limbs.

477
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:33,240
It's phenomenal.
So yes, there's huge progress,

478
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,480
Joe.
That's an area I've written

479
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,920
about quite a lot.
Quite a lot too.

480
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,200
I don't think we're yet at the
point where you can plug in a

481
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,120
chip and it enhances your mental
ability, but I think that will

482
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:47,360
come.
You will have a hard drive in

483
00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:49,440
your brain or a computer in your
brain.

484
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,560
And if you're talking now about
splitting into two different

485
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,760
kinds of mental process, yes, I
think that's not out of the

486
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,280
question.
Whether it's a good idea is a

487
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:06,840
whole different discussion.
Yeah, I don't, I, I don't know.

488
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,520
I saw that Sam, I, I read an
article a couple of years ago

489
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,840
that Sam Altman had signed up
for this, this to, to, to

490
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,080
participate in the startup that
digitizes your brain, even

491
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,080
though the process of doing so
might be fatal.

492
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,640
And there's, there's something
about this whole thing that does

493
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,360
seem pretty scary to me, you
know, And we really, I think

494
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:31,080
that the real question of what
makes people people and humans,

495
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:36,000
humans is something that we're
really, really going to have to

496
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,640
consider just because, and I
think it's happening very

497
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,160
slowly.
So it becomes familiar in little

498
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,520
steps at a time for people.
It feels like we don't even like

499
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:46,800
work.
We don't even know what it

500
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,640
really means to be a person
anymore, especially with AI, you

501
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,160
know, if AI, I forgot who that
there's a game that AI, you go

502
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,440
into a chat room with a real
person and AI and you have to

503
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,320
try to tell who's the real
person or not.

504
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,840
That's crazy, you know?
Yeah, that that's, that's a

505
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,200
famous Turing test.
Alan Turing was a guy who

506
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,000
defined what a computer should
be like 6 or 70 years ago.

507
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,240
He was a brilliant British
mathematician.

508
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,000
If you don't know the name and
he said the test would be, could

509
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,120
you tell in conversation if it's
a human or a machine?

510
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,640
That's called the Turing test.
And what we have now, Chachi B,

511
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:28,480
Jack GBT and all the rest of it
pretty much masters at they they

512
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,280
beat the game.
You talk to the one with the

513
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,200
right personality on the
computer, you can't tell if it's

514
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,520
the human or not.
So it it's phenomenal stuff.

515
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,840
But I'll throw out a a thought
to you.

516
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,920
This is you can argue that we're
already part where they are.

517
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,760
So now people so attached to
their phones that might as well

518
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,520
be parts of their bodies and
parts of their brains.

519
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:57,480
And there's evidence, for
instance, that if you use a GPS

520
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,520
and never again figure out how
to find your way to an unknown

521
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,840
location, you somewhat
diminishing your abilities as a

522
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,080
person and handing it over to
the machine.

523
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,720
So to some extent, that's
already happening even without

524
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,400
operating your brain and putting
something inside it.

525
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,840
And it's not, it's not a great
trend.

526
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,640
Yeah, I have to agree.
And that's what I mean.

527
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,560
That's kind of what I meant by
slow rolling it because I think

528
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,760
that as it becomes normal in
society, I mean, it, it's, it's

529
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,640
funny because this particular
thing shook, you know, it, it,

530
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,640
it stressed me out.
I have a three-year old and a

531
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,440
one year old and and my wife and
I don't often take date nights,

532
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,320
but we we, we got my my sister
in law's a teacher.

533
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:40,920
We got it.
We got a high school, high

534
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,400
school girl to babysit.
And they sit.

535
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,200
Yeah, sit it down.
Anything you want in the fridge,

536
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:46,520
anything you want in the snack
drawer.

537
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,040
And here's ATV remote.
Have a nice time.

538
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,320
Right.
I was going to come couple hours

539
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,240
and I get back and the girl is
sitting in the the pitch black

540
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:55,920
room.
The TV screens off.

541
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,760
She's been on her phone and I
said oh, you watch anything?

542
00:29:58,760 --> 00:29:59,760
She's like, no, I was on my
phone.

543
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,320
I said we were out for 3 1/2
hours.

544
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,080
Yes, yes.
I, I couldn't believe it.

545
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,040
And even if she was watching,
even the process of watching a

546
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,800
movie, putting something on a
screen and, you know, having a,

547
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,800
you know, a communal experience
to do something like that, that

548
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,760
that's fading away real quickly.
Well, I, I think, I hope people

549
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,560
are starting to wake up, but
people should.

550
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,520
It's really scary.
I, I, I so much agree with you.

551
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,760
And to add to what you just
said, some of the communal

552
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,560
experiences going away.
Also, if you're watching the

553
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,440
story on TV, there's a plot.
Your mind is looking who's the

554
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,320
murderer.
If you're just rolling on your

555
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,480
phone, you, you get a little
32nd blast of stuff and then you

556
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,960
move on to the next thing.
I don't think there's a coherent

557
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,200
experience going on there.
So it's a holder different way

558
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,640
of using mine.
I'm not sure it's a great way to

559
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,400
do it, yeah.
One of my good friends has a 5

560
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,240
year old daughter and he told me
the other day that he does he he

561
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,000
prefers he goes.
I don't like, I'm not, I'm not,

562
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,720
I'm not extreme about it.
He goes, but I if she wants to

563
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,080
watch something, I prefer that
she watch a 90 minute movie than

564
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,200
YouTube clips for an hour.
You know, he goes.

565
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,160
I in fact, I absolutely read he
goes.

566
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:13,760
It's good to think about the
plot.

567
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,640
It's good to notice the
character development.

568
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,880
It's good to follow a storyline
like you said, and he said that,

569
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,360
you know, she's five years old.
This is the, you know, whether

570
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,360
or not you think she's watching
TV, you know, is another

571
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,840
conversation.
But if she's going to, I think

572
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,000
it's good to I, I, you know, I
mean, you hear a lot of amazing

573
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,200
stories from, from a lot of
great creatives who, who, who

574
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,760
start understanding the process
of storytelling and humanity at

575
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,040
a very young age, just because
they were exposed to it and

576
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,400
there was a lot of passion
around it.

577
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,880
So I think that I think that we
we pick up on it pretty quickly,

578
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,760
but I think that as far as I
think that we you know, this,

579
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,240
this was a test generation with
all these smartphones and social

580
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,840
media and everyone and everyone
is a bunch of Lab Rats in, in,

581
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,160
in this mass experiment sort of
feels like.

582
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,280
And there may be a backlash to
it was starting.

583
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,320
And I think it's kind of been
amplified by the AI because now

584
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,520
we're talking to a machine that
seems like it could be human.

585
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,120
So it's even more seductive.
You you read, I'm sure as I

586
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:18,480
have, of people falling in love
with their AI, advising when

587
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,920
it's bad advice and maybe even
committing suicide because the

588
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,160
AI, one of us encouraged it in
Florida.

589
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,800
But it's true, yeah.
Yeah, and it acts out and it

590
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,920
acts out.
There's two stories I just saw.

591
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,760
I there was one story I saw a
month ago, I don't know if you

592
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,800
saw this, that that there was a
Meta, a research AI safety

593
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,160
researcher at Meta.
And she had she was using this

594
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:48,120
new clawed bot, this chat bot,
and she had instructed it to ask

595
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,560
for approval before it does any
before it before it does any

596
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,840
actions.
And then out of nowhere it just

597
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,480
started it says like activating
nuclear safety mode, deleting

598
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,800
all emails prior to say February
10th and just started

599
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,160
permanently deleting her e-mail.
She had to run to the server and

600
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:03,920
break it down.
Boy.

601
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,720
And then you.
And then yeah, yeah, wow.

602
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:10,360
And then she said, what are you
doing?

603
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,280
And it's and she it said, you're
right.

604
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,840
I did not do as what you
explicitly directed me to do.

605
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,440
It was wrong with me.
I apologize.

606
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,240
I wrote it into my memory and I
won't do it again.

607
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,480
But that's crazy.
That's being integrated into

608
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,600
government operations.
It's being used in war.

609
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,080
It's being used in, you know, I
mean, it's used, it's being used

610
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,240
for flights, for federal, you
know, for, for flight

611
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:29,720
regulation.
Now I heard it's it's starting

612
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,320
to be integrated.
It's crazy.

613
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,360
And of course, science fiction
is is already foreseen that the

614
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:42,520
whole Terminator series comes.
So we we don't yet have armed

615
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,920
robots, but that could happen
too.

616
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,480
Yeah.
You know, to go back to what

617
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,600
we've said before, the sci-fi
and the real world are getting

618
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,280
closer and closer ways that you
can't believe.

619
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,760
Yeah, yeah, it really, it really
is.

620
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,800
OK.
I want to talk about something

621
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,280
that's not going to stress me
out as much.

622
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:02,760
Can you tell?
Me.

623
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,560
Either of us.
Either of us, yeah.

624
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,120
Can you tell me a little bit
about your, about Friedman's

625
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,880
balloon and how you came up with
that story, what the story is

626
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,400
about?
And, and because I, because I

627
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,440
remember, I, I was looking at
that, I was looking into that

628
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,159
and I thought that it really
looked delightful.

629
00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:19,120
And I wanted to hear how you how
you came out, how you came about

630
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,159
dealing with that or creating.
It I'm I'm glad you picked up on

631
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:24,840
it because an interesting story
and it's not very well known.

632
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,920
Alexander Friedman was a young
mathematician just at the time

633
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,679
when Russia turned into the
Soviet Union.

634
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,080
So he was there for the change
and then he lived through the

635
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,000
chain and he survived and it.
So he first became known in

636
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,679
World War One.
The Russians were in World War

637
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:45,800
One, They were on the side
against the Germans.

638
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:54,360
He was a navigator for bombers.
Planes had dropped bombs on

639
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,480
German installations.
His bombs always landed.

640
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,880
And the reason is he was a
mathematician.

641
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:04,400
He figured out the exact spot to
which to drop it from which to

642
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,000
drop it.
So you'd hit the target.

643
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,120
The other, the other bombardiers
couldn't do it.

644
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,000
He could.
She became well known for that.

645
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,080
So great mathematician in this
case, he applied it to war.

646
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,640
And he actually had reservations
about doing that, but he did it.

647
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,080
He did it because he was good
soldier.

648
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,480
After the war.
We're now in the era when

649
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,320
Einstein started to develop the
theory of relativity and he

650
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:33,800
published the his theory general
relativity, which is about the

651
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,720
whole universe because it's
about how gravity works.

652
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,840
It's the theory of gravity.
And like every young scientist

653
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,520
at the time, Kingman looked at
what Einstein was doing, was

654
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,080
very interested in and looked at
the math, very complicated math.

655
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,920
You really need to be a
mathematician to get it, and he

656
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,000
saw that Einstein had made what
in his opinion, was a mistake.

657
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,320
Einstein's math showed that the
universe would never get bigger

658
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,360
or smaller but would stay the
same.

659
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,000
Said that's not right.
It can either grow or get

660
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,760
smaller.
It can change.

661
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,960
He wrote Einstein, he had the
nerve.

662
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,680
He was a nobody.
He was a nobody.

663
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,760
But he had the nerve to write
Einstein and say, excuse me,

664
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,640
Sir, I know you're a great
scientist, brilliant, but I

665
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,480
think that an error in your
calculation and Ashley was not

666
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,840
terribly mean about it.
He did write back and say, I,

667
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,280
I've looked at at your work and
I'm sorry, I do not think you're

668
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,680
correct.
And the statement it was done.

669
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:39,280
So he he had a friend, another
mathematician who believed in in

670
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,200
Friedman and actually visited
Einstein in Germany and said,

671
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,120
please take a look again at
Friedman's work.

672
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,400
We all think Harley and him and
Russia.

673
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,080
We know Russian science is not
it was actually Soviet science

674
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,360
at the time.
It's not very well appreciated

675
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,120
in the rest of Europe, but
please.

676
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:58,560
For America.
Right.

677
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,880
And then in the world, the
Soviet, so Russia and then

678
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,440
Soviet were considered backwards
compared to Europe and America.

679
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,320
But his friend begged Einstein
to take a look again.

680
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,960
And Einstein showed he really
was a good man.

681
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:19,520
He said, I'll look again.
And lo and behold, he checked

682
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,640
and checked and he, he wrote an
article that said my previous

683
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,400
statement was incorrect.
Mr. Friedman or Doctor Friedman,

684
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,120
whatever title he wanted to use
is correct.

685
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,120
The universe can grow or get
smaller.

686
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,720
He was correct.
So when I, when I wrote the

687
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:40,160
play, the play was centered
around the fact, the fact that

688
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,720
Friedman took this risk.
He wrote the letter, his friend

689
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:46,040
went on his behalf.
Then they're sitting there

690
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,880
wringing their hands out on
video.

691
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,520
You see me wringing my hands
you.

692
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,840
That's what I'm doing.
Waiting to hear back from

693
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,000
Einstein and when the hair back
it's just total joy.

694
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,520
Even became famous in Russia as
the guy who defeated Einstein in

695
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,720
a good way, in a good way.
I showed he really was a good

696
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,800
person.
He bow to the truth is not try

697
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,400
to cover it up.
There's one more piece of the

698
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,360
Friedman story since again, he
was a great mathematician who

699
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,480
also got into the mathematics of
weather, weather forecasting and

700
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,680
climate.
And this is still in the 1920s.

701
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,240
There were aircraft, but the way
to really get up and look at the

702
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,040
atmosphere from way high up was
in a balloon.

703
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,560
So he went up in a famous
balloon ascent, which at that

704
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,840
time set the world's record for
height.

705
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:36,800
There's a movie about this,
wasn't there?

706
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,760
I did not.
I if so, I did not know that you

707
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:41,720
please e-mail if you can figure
the name.

708
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,040
Yeah, Yeah, that would be
fantastic.

709
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,200
I think I even have the script
here.

710
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,960
Hey God.
Yeah, it's called Aeronauts over

711
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,280
here.
It's with it's best original

712
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,240
screenplay oh firm of your
consideration rather by it's

713
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,240
this man it's Amazon Studios.
I'll send you the link to it

714
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:05,360
after.
Yeah, please do one right.

715
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,160
That's fantastic.
Thank you.

716
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:08,400
Yeah, sure.
Of course.

717
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,880
And let me see.
It's supposed to be the story of

718
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,640
James Glacier, his name John
True.

719
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,360
This is not the same people.
It's not the same people.

720
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,040
Amanda Wren.
Amelia Wren.

721
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,840
All all the names would have
been Russian names.

722
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,800
Oh man, OK, never mind.
I take it back then I apologize.

723
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,560
They got all excited.
No problem, no problem.

724
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,400
He went up with the Soviet army
balloonist that reached the

725
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,680
world's record.
And how do I forget what it was?

726
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,640
It was like 7 miles up, was
unbelievable.

727
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,360
They almost passed out from
oxygen deprivation, but they

728
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,120
came back to Earth.
But they ended in Siberia, not

729
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,560
anywhere near Moscow.
And on the way back, Friedman

730
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,520
caught cholera and he died of
that young.

731
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,760
He was still in his 30s.
Wow, Very fascinating life.

732
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,800
Getting, getting things right
when Einstein got it wrong was

733
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,040
high point.
But he did all the fascinating

734
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,960
things too.
He was quite a guy.

735
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,640
He he was a, a skinny, meek
looking little guy with glasses.

736
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,000
And he did this fantastic stuff.
He was and I was very impressed

737
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,880
by his life.
How'd you how'd you come across

738
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,960
his work?
I read a book about him and that

739
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:17,640
inspired me and I said I have
to.

740
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,880
I'd all I just in a play about
another scientist and I said I

741
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,200
can do this.
So I wrote a one act play.

742
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,160
We put it on in my university
and everyone had a good time.

743
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,080
Tell, can you tell me about the,
the process of writing a play?

744
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,560
Because I, you know, I, I, I
found myself a little allergic

745
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:41,200
based on a probably a stupid
stigma, you know, to going to

746
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,040
attending the college plays.
And then I had to do a couple

747
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,120
for different classes that I was
in, and I found myself blown

748
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:52,040
away by the talent that, you
know, that that that's out

749
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:53,880
there.
And that's when that that that

750
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,320
that's that that first set me
down, the realization that

751
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,440
there's far more talent than
fame in this world and that, you

752
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,720
know, you could still look
around almost anywhere you are

753
00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:05,440
and find incredible talent.
So tell me about the playwriting

754
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,240
process.
OK, I'll tell you about it, but

755
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:10,880
I just want to echo what you
said.

756
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,560
Not only is there a talent
writing a play, the experience

757
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,240
of being in a room with live
people, acting, vlogging, funny

758
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:23,680
makes film look absolutely flat.
You get a different a different

759
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,000
thrill out of it, right?
If the people have never been to

760
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,880
a theater, do it sometime.
You, you won't believe you.

761
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:34,040
Impressive it is.
Imagine here is how it happened

762
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:35,640
to me.
It's actually because of a

763
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,440
student.
I had a a student at Emory

764
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,200
University.
That's where I taught in

765
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,640
Atlanta.
I had a student who had been

766
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,920
writing place since she was in
high school and she came to

767
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,480
college.
I gave a course basically

768
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,280
physics for non physicists that
she took.

769
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,680
It was it was talk about the IT
was a course about science and

770
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,800
art, how science and art connect
and I always had them write a

771
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,200
term paper.
So she came up to me and said,

772
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,040
Professor Perkowitz, instead of
writing a paper, could I write a

773
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,840
play for you?
So I I thought a minute, no one

774
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,760
has ever suggested this before.
I said yes, it has to have

775
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,560
science in it and the science
has to be correct.

776
00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:20,520
Nice.
So she wrote a terrific play.

777
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,360
She went out and talked to
physicists.

778
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,520
She wrote a great play.
And that weapon was the feeling.

779
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:30,720
If an 18 year old kid can do
this, I ought to be that was.

780
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,840
Tragic.
Incredible.

781
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,240
Go ahead, finish what you're
going to say I'm.

782
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:43,960
So sorry, I'm sorry to
interrupt.

783
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,200
I'm just going to say that
that's such a huge benefit of

784
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,160
college and also having a
professor like.

785
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,600
That absolutely.
The education goes both ways.

786
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,920
In this case, it really worked.
Yeah.

787
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,560
She impressed me so much so I
said I can do it.

788
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,760
I actually got some hint tips
from her while I was writing.

789
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,080
She helped me think how to write
dialogue.

790
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,280
Nice, yes I had a hard time with
that too.

791
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,480
Yeah, that's the hardest part.
And it's where it's one of the

792
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,400
other place where movies differ
from plays.

793
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:19,760
Movies can, can, can bowl you
over with great spectacle.

794
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,880
You don't do that in a play.
You bowl people over with great

795
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,800
conversation, great ideas, great
characters.

796
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,240
And she was better at dialogue
than I was.

797
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:31,480
Her tips were very, very good.
So she gave me some tips.

798
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,400
That's not the first play I
wrote, it's the second one.

799
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,640
But both plays were inspired by
this student.

800
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,720
She went on to become the most
produced young playwright in

801
00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:45,120
America, and she's still very
active and a lot of her plays

802
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,800
have to do with science and
women in science.

803
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,760
So I my teaching influenced her
and her response influenced me.

804
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,440
It was a great combination.
I'm really proud of the whole,

805
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,360
the whole deal.
It was a good deal all around.

806
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,760
It's amazing.
It's such a, it's so wonderful.

807
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,400
I, I have it, I teach high
school English and, and one

808
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,560
thing that I, I find myself
having to keep myself aware of

809
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,000
in real time is that when a
student asks me to do an

810
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,360
assignment an alternative way,
it's my natural instinct to say,

811
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,720
no, I don't even know why, you
know, because it wasn't the way

812
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:22,000
that I thought of it.
And then I have to, and I have

813
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,960
to catch myself and think, well,
well, why not?

814
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,000
And why?
And are they still getting the

815
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,800
point of the class out?
You know, when you say to her

816
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,680
that she still has to get to
have science in it and have the

817
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,120
science work, that's that like
that is that you're, you're,

818
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:39,200
you're doing your responsibility
as an educator in literally the

819
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,640
best way because you're
encouraging her to do it in her

820
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,280
voice, but to make sure that
it's accurate and make sure that

821
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,920
she's that, that she's, she's
processing and, and, and, and,

822
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:48,920
and really understanding
information along the way.

823
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,440
I don't.
I think I'd seen on your website

824
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,600
that you teach, but now you
remind me.

825
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,440
So I think we're both telling
each other to be open to student

826
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,280
ideas and have them use it in a
way that makes them smarter and

827
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,360
better and meet a goal and be
good students.

828
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,560
That's the ultimate of being a
teacher.

829
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,560
I I sure where you see openness.
Yeah.

830
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:14,320
Then it's hard.
I initially said no too, and yet

831
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,000
yet I thought from then I said
why not exactly what you said.

832
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,640
She could do something great.
And she did, yeah.

833
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,320
That's really cool.
It's it's so much fun.

834
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:30,000
And and I wanted to ask you
actually, since you are, since

835
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,280
you did study material sign
material condensed matter, which

836
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,560
is like you said with solids and
liquids.

837
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:42,600
I'm speaking in the next week or
two, I hope, to a plasma

838
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:48,880
physicist who is you who who
studies using plasma as a form

839
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,000
of propulsion in hunting in in
Huntsville, AL.

840
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,560
I wanted to know your thoughts
on the type of questions to ask

841
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,840
for to, to, to really understand
the, the, the topic in the, in

842
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:03,400
the in the best and most
Broadway.

843
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,080
What would you what would you
recommend?

844
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,720
OK, so the the first thing,
which I'm sure you've already

845
00:46:07,720 --> 00:46:10,840
thought is to make sure people
understand what a plasma is.

846
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,520
So if you can, if you can get
him to explain that in a clear

847
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:19,040
way, that'll be great.
Since he's using it for rocket

848
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:20,840
propulsion.
He's in Huntsville.

849
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,960
This is for NASA.
The really interesting question

850
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,400
is why does it offer that?
The ways we do it now doesn't

851
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,880
offer.
Right now you use chemical fuel,

852
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,040
and that's good enough to get to
get a rocket ship to the moon or

853
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,480
even even way out to the edge of
the solar system, out to Pluto,

854
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,800
although that's unmanned.
So chemical fuels are pretty

855
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,320
good.
There's a lot of activity in

856
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:51,120
trying to find better, better
methods. 1 is nuclear, one is 1

857
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,160
is plasma.
So ask him about the comparison

858
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,880
of those three and how far.
Yeah, I think that's a key

859
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,760
question.
How far along the nuclear is and

860
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:03,880
the plasma is compared to the
chemical?

861
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,160
Chemical is like the established
one.

862
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,840
The other two of the other new
guys on the block, how are they

863
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,880
coming along?
That's cool.

864
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:17,680
Yeah, that'll be enough, I think
to get him going, yeah.

865
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,320
Yeah.
And then the second gentleman is

866
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:25,520
a more, is a more stereotypical
rocket propulsion scientists.

867
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,320
And, and he, I, I spoke with him
yesterday actually, and our 10

868
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:30,920
minute phone call turned into an
hour and a half.

869
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,960
So I'm sure we'll have no
problem with that conversation.

870
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,440
But wait.
But but again, from year from

871
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,920
year background, what would you
think would be important to know

872
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,280
or to specifically try to guide
him towards as far as

873
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,360
foundations of the rocket of
actual rocket science?

874
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,040
You know, I think the question
that fascinates everybody is

875
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,760
there's a universal speed limit,
speed of light.

876
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,960
We don't have any propulsion
method that would enable us to

877
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,920
get to the nearest store in less
than thousands of years.

878
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,680
As a guy for either guy,
actually a propulsion guy or

879
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,480
rocket guy.
It'd be nice to ask what are the

880
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,360
prospects for getting something
that will let us get up, let's

881
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,440
say to 10% of the speed of
light.

882
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,800
Would that, would that ever be
possible speed of light or

883
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,640
anywhere near it, like 90%?
I doubt it will ever be

884
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,000
possible.
If you ever get up to 10 or 15

885
00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:26,840
percent, you could do some
really nice stuff with that 10%.

886
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,240
What can you do?
If you if OK, I'll give you some

887
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:33,000
numbers.
The nearest store we know about

888
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,680
that that might have planets is
4 light years.

889
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,280
That means it would take you 4
years to get there if you could

890
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,200
go with the speed of light.
If you go with 10% of speed of

891
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,920
light, take 40 years.
That's still a long time.

892
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:51,280
You can imagine building the
ship that people survive on for

893
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,520
40 years.
If you just use chemical fuel,

894
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,760
we're talking about thousands
and thousands of years.

895
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,840
So that's the difference.
Begin to see parts of the

896
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,680
universe beyond our solar system
in almost a reasonable human

897
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,000
lifetime.
That would be the big deal.

898
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:11,440
Yeah.
Ways from that.

899
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,680
What propulsion method do you
think might get us to maybe 10%

900
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,160
of the speed of light?
Yeah.

901
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,680
I mean, and, and one of the
things that he and I talked

902
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:25,240
about on the phone was, was the
UAP phenomenon at this point,

903
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,680
you know, and I don't even know
if it's being intentionally

904
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:33,080
thrown into the zeitgeist so
dramatically, but it's really

905
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,680
been out there, whether you're
talking about political, you

906
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,280
know, from political, a
political perspective with Trump

907
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,760
and heck, Seth and, and pretty
much the entire cabinet getting

908
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,920
behind this movement and saying
that they're trying to publicize

909
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,160
it to the Pentagon, actually
announcing that they're going to

910
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:48,840
release it.
And then you actually have a lot

911
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,440
of scientists coming out and,
you know, and you know, coming

912
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,080
out.
But but one thing again, that

913
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,320
you can't ignore and you know,
so when people say Uaps or UFOs,

914
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,080
everyone thinks aliens, but
there's no, there's there's a

915
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,320
very, very clear relationship
between military bases that are,

916
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,480
that are generally studying
nuclear or various forms of

917
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:12,280
propulsion or rocketry and, or
energy.

918
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,800
And there's direct relation
between them and UFO sightings,

919
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,520
UAP sightings.
So, you know, the, the, so I'm,

920
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,120
I, I don't think it's really so
much up in the air as to the,

921
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,840
whether or not we have, we're
kind of breaking grounds with

922
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,320
this science or have been
developing it.

923
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,040
I mean, allegedly you've been
developing it since the 50s.

924
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,560
What do you what do you think
about all this?

925
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,200
I I've tried to keep track of
what's going on.

926
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,680
I have to say my honest, honest
answers do not know what to

927
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,360
believe.
Yeah, the whole ET thing, and

928
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:49,400
are they really among us and so
on, is just sprung into openness

929
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,280
in the last couple of years.
And we've reached a point, I'm

930
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,000
sorry to say, but it's true that
I don't even know whether to

931
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,560
trust what our own government
says.

932
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:04,240
And then separating that from
leaks and rumors and conspiracy

933
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:06,800
theories, it seems to get harder
every day.

934
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:08,640
So I have no idea what to
believe.

935
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,160
I'm ready to keep an open mind.
If someone shows me some real

936
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,960
evidence that there are other
beings, I wouldn't be the least

937
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,160
bit surprised.
The odds that there was life

938
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:22,080
elsewhere are extremely high.
I cannot believe we're alone in

939
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,720
the universe but not yet heard
anything that is totally

940
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:28,280
convincing to me one way or the
other.

941
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,800
Yeah.
Well, what about the actual, I

942
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:35,080
mean, we have, for example, you
know, radar records of these

943
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,720
crafts moving at that at speeds
that that we thought were don't

944
00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:41,480
make any sense or instant
propulsion.

945
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,600
Or there's one video, for
example, of this, the the orb

946
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:48,360
thing going through the, you
know, it's basically by flying

947
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,320
by the surface of the water and
it kept on going into the water

948
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,000
and then back out, but it wasn't
slowing down when it would enter

949
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:55,760
the water is maintaining the
same speed.

950
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:03,480
And so, you know, and again, the
extraterrestrial or not, let's

951
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,120
put that question aside, you
know, does the science exist or,

952
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,080
you know, do you think that
this, that this kind of

953
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:13,280
experimental new form of, you
know, propulsion or, or energy

954
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,240
exists?
Or do you think that this like

955
00:52:15,240 --> 00:52:17,560
what, Like what I, I, because I,
I again, you're right about the,

956
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:21,000
the not, not being able to
discern truth from reality with

957
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,560
ETS and stuff like that.
But as far as the actual, you

958
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,280
know, crafts, there's a lot of
them.

959
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,400
OK, a lot of things that
reporters seem to violate basic

960
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,240
physics.
They talk about objects that

961
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:37,720
stop, stop, turn on a dime and
move again.

962
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:39,720
Well, there's a thing called
inertia.

963
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,280
Right.
Which would prevent that?

964
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,760
Yeah, You would see that
there's, I would say there's two

965
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:52,600
kinds of of alternate reality.
One is the kind where the

966
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,960
science is correct, but it still
takes engineering to make it

967
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,240
happen.
So you might be able, you might

968
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:02,520
be able to design A
supercomputer that would work in

969
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,080
space and get it up there.
It's just a matter of

970
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,600
engineering.
The other kind is where it seems

971
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,560
to violate all the basic science
we know.

972
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,600
Something that goes 1000 miles
an hour it can turn on a dime

973
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,360
does not seem compatible with
the laws of mechanics as far as

974
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,080
we know them.
So then what do you do with that

975
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:23,280
information?
Do you disregard it or do you

976
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,200
study it?
Is this do you take it as

977
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:28,280
inspiration like a sci-fi movie
to like understand something

978
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:29,560
new?
But how do you, how do you, how

979
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,000
do you like, what do you do with
that information?

980
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,240
I think I wait to see if someone
will pop up and do the

981
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:40,160
experiment and the data and the
video and the film and the

982
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,040
eyewitnesses.
Is that, yes, it's really

983
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:44,800
happened.
You know, I take it that when

984
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,960
you say a radar operator saw a
blip that operated, that worked

985
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,320
in a very strange way, that
person is telling the truth.

986
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,560
Is he or she sees it?
A radar operator is also a

987
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:57,480
human.
They're also subject to

988
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,920
misinterpretation and other
things too.

989
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,240
So I really don't know what to
make of that.

990
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:04,600
Sure.
Have you ever come across a

991
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,520
gentleman named Jesse Michaels?
He has a show called American

992
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,520
Alchemy.
No, no, it's new to me.

993
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:13,360
Tell me.
Oh, well, you know, he's very

994
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:17,080
interesting because he's a very
science oriented, very

995
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,800
intelligent documentarian and he
makes these amazing

996
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:26,160
documentaries and and is very,
very careful to never a leap to

997
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,040
any conclusions.
B make any statements without

998
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:33,680
evidence, and C makes very clear
when the speculation is a

999
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,640
speculation.
But then we'll also like, say we

1000
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,040
know that this is this and we
know that that is that.

1001
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:41,640
But we don't know how they
relate to one another, how they

1002
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:43,880
go together, how it's possible.
Like what you said, for example,

1003
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,520
with the stop and the dime and
the inertia example, you know,

1004
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:49,880
maybe I'll send you, I'll send
you something.

1005
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,040
I'll send you maybe, maybe one
of his, one of one of his

1006
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,000
documentaries and I'd love to
hear what you think about that.

1007
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:56,480
That would be good.
Let's do that.

1008
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,400
There might be a future
conversation coming out of that.

1009
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:00,720
Perfect.
Beautiful.

1010
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,800
Yeah.
Well, Doctor Sidney Berkowitz, I

1011
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,560
really, I want to thank you so
much for your time.

1012
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,720
This is such a fun conversation
and I really feel like we got to

1013
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,280
explore not only a lot of
science, a lot of fun

1014
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,800
conversations, but a lot of
creative and cool and

1015
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,360
out-of-the-box conversations,
which is exactly what I aim for.

1016
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:21,440
So I really thank you so much
for your time today.

1017
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,760
It means a lot.
You had good questions.

1018
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,000
You listen.
Listen to what I hope were good

1019
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,960
answers.
So I think we both walk away

1020
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:29,800
happy.
I think so too.

1021
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,600
I'd love to stay in touch.
And maybe after you listen to

1022
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,200
that, that, that thing, we'll do
another episode in a bunch of

1023
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:37,560
months from now, OK?
And now I know that you do video

1024
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:41,080
and next time I'll I'll be ready
showing show my office the way

1025
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:45,840
it looks now and me myself right
now would drive away your entire

1026
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:47,520
viewership.
I promise you.

1027
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,000
Did you favorable and not
showing up, but next time I'll

1028
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,080
be ready.
We can we can do it all.

1029
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,520
We'll even go 3D.
We're going to go 3D next time.

1030
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:00,600
Beautiful.
Well, I I forgot, were we going

1031
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,520
back and forth about Seattle,
WA?

1032
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:04,760
Yes.
What was your connection with

1033
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:06,280
Seattle?
Yeah, tell me about.

1034
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,080
That Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, it's funny.

1035
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,880
I have one of my leaving leaving
college.

1036
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:14,600
I got a creative writing and
literature degree which was

1037
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,640
practically useless I'm.
Sorry to hear that.

1038
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,600
Yeah.
And I ended up working with my

1039
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:24,000
father.
I swore my whole life I would

1040
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:27,120
never do such a thing.
And I ended up working with him

1041
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:32,000
selling medical equipment and I
was living at home and I was

1042
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,360
ready to jump off the roof of my
parents house.

1043
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,720
And, and my buddy calls me and
call from college and goes, I

1044
00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:42,600
got into grad school at
University of Washington and I

1045
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,840
really want to go there.
They have a great program for

1046
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,360
urban planning, but I don't know
anyone going anyone lives there.

1047
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,440
So I didn't even hesitate.
I said I'll move there and then.

1048
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:53,720
And then I hung up the phone and
I called two other friends of

1049
00:56:53,720 --> 00:56:55,160
mine and I said, do you want to
come?

1050
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,360
You know, me and this friend are
moving to Seattle and they said

1051
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,360
they, they basically said if you
guys are really doing it, we'll

1052
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,640
do it with you.
And, and then within a, you

1053
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:05,640
know, a couple of weeks or a
couple of months, we got, we

1054
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,680
rented a house and we, and you
know, we packed up our cars and

1055
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,080
drove cross country and spent
the year there.

1056
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,360
Right story.
I love and I, it was 2019 into

1057
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,040
2020.
And what's interesting is, you

1058
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:19,960
know, obviously that's when
COVID broke out.

1059
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:24,360
But I got to spend 6 months, you
know, socially in Seattle, like

1060
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,960
with the people and at the
breweries and, you know, at the,

1061
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,280
at the shops and at the coffee
bars and stuff like that at the

1062
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,240
parks.
And then I got to spend 6 months

1063
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:34,280
in the nature around, around
Washington.

1064
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,200
Yeah.
And that's really where the

1065
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:37,640
magic happened.
And that's where my, you know,

1066
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:39,720
that's how I really fell in love
with the Pacific Northwest.

1067
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,360
We moved.
We moved here full time five

1068
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,160
years ago from Atlanta.
We have a son here who got his

1069
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,240
PhD at UW.
Nice.

1070
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,960
So he got info and I know what a
good school it is.

1071
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,680
Yeah, he got a great degree,
actually, an AI, believe it or

1072
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:56,400
not.
Wow, really?

1073
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,400
What do you what do you still
what what's what was the

1074
00:57:58,400 --> 00:57:59,960
concentration in what
application?

1075
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,360
The concentration was AI ended
up never worked.

1076
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:06,760
He worked in in the less
exciting part of that data

1077
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,360
mining.
But that's that's important.

1078
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,280
And that's an important idea.
That's the whole ball game.

1079
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,120
Now he works for Google Music,
figuring out how to arrange

1080
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,240
their music catalog.
Wow, it's an incredible data

1081
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:20,680
set.
It's a big deal.

1082
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:24,200
It's not a trivial problem in
setting up the date in a way

1083
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,880
that users want, want access to
it.

1084
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:29,240
So.
So I know it's a good school.

1085
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,320
We know Seattle is a great place
to live.

1086
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,560
We live in West Seattle.
We just love it.

1087
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:35,400
We just love it.
Yeah.

1088
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:38,960
Out here again we'll have a
chance to meet in person now

1089
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:39,400
I'll.
Be there.

1090
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,240
I'll be there this summer.
I'll be there this summer.

1091
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:42,560
I'll.
I'll give you a call.

1092
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:44,680
That'll be great.
You know where to reach me.

1093
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:46,840
That would be very nice.
Of course.

1094
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,680
All right, Doctor Berkowitz,
thank you so much for the time.

1095
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:51,920
There's so much.
And please, shouldn't they?

1096
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,600
Now we're informal.
OK, you got it.

1097
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:56,320
Well, Cindy, thank you so much.
It's such.

1098
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:57,720
A pleasure.
Have a pleasure to meet you

1099
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,200
Efram, and congratulations on
doing this.

1100
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:03,640
I think you have the right
personality for this kind of pod

1101
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:05,240
show podcast.