Science Series 6: Sidney Perkowitz / AI & Replicating Humanity / UFO’s / Science Ed & Sci-fi

0:01 Welcome to another episode of Come Together. Doctor Sidney Perkowitz, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you on. How are you today? Thank you for a pleasure to be here and you're looking hell and hard to yourself. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I, I'm particularly excited to talk to you because my whole life I thought I was bad at science until I've found better ways or ways that spoke more to me about the way that the material is being handed over or, you know, I don't know the different types of formats.

0:45 And then I realized I didn't hate science. I really enjoyed it. I just was not good at doing it in the, you know, typical classroom setting. And, and I see that you spent a ton of your career really focused on, you know, aside from actual science and research, alternative forms of education. And so I'm really excited to be able to hear about your experience and what got you into that. And it was interesting to pick up on why you said to find a different way to do science that reached out more to people who aren't scientists. And that's something that needs to be done. So we're on the same wavelength on that. My personal story is I I love scientific research. I was a pretty good teacher. But when I hit age 50, I thought it was time to look in a different direction.

1:31 I'd always wanted to write, so I started writing that year. 50th birthday is a big deal. I'd also published my 100th research paper. I figured that was a good landmark. Congratulations that. Was awesome, yeah. So see that. So you started writing and was it daunting to switch careers? How do you want to go about tackling, you know, like, how'd you decide to be creative in the fashion that you were? You know, I mean, I feel like a lot of, a lot of people, especially if they were doing research or they were in the university setting, they would just kind of write a book, maybe a textbook or, you know, maybe they'll, they'll, you know, their self, you know, they, they publish a book about what they, what they think. But you've done some fun things like writing, you know, scripts for, for plays and, you know, and, and, and film things. What?

2:16 How did you get involved in that? It was partly that I hadn't done all the scientific writing. I published, as I said, that many papers and some books that was purely for other scientists that were technical books, and I figured I had mastered that kind of writing. I really wanted to do something new. Also, as a kid I was a big reader, and although science always attracted me, Joe did the great fiction writers I was. I was a big fan of of many of the household names that are considered great storytellers, and somehow that was a second ambition for me. So it seemed natural to drift into writing. But doing science.

2:59 I don't think I'm creative enough to write a novel. I am creative enough to write about science in an interesting way, or so I hope. That's amazing. Well, I bet, I bet. The truth is I haven't, I haven't read any of it yet, but I, I do, I do have to check it out. But I mean, I see that there's a tie. I mean, your website is just filled with, with different fun projects that you've done and circling back on the your, your appreciation for science fiction or for science in general growing up. I was talking to a gentleman the other day and I'm so upset because I forget, I'm forgetting his name.

3:39 And he was a scientist and a science, a science comedian. He was, you know, he, he, he was very, very funny and he, most of his jokes were geared around actual science. And that was another stick that he did that from a scientific perspective. It's really important to have these fun fake worlds, you know, like these sci-fi worlds that encourage scientists to try to bring that fiction into reality and to, you know, inspires people and gives them ideas for a world that could be. And then how to kind of, you know, back engineer it and reverse and reverse track on it. Do you find that to be the case? Absolutely. It's a great point. I thought at some point we'd end up talking about what I think about science fiction, and what you just said ties into that. If you go to a science fiction film, science and it may or may not be very active accurate, often it's but kids who watch it get inspired, they get turned on. There's a famous research in robotics who says the minute she saw R2D2, she said she wanted to do that. So that's exactly the story that you said. It can be a great incentive.

4:48 It's so it's not necessarily spreading correct science, but that's secondary toward to inspiring or exciting people about it. Yeah, definitely. I saw, I forgot I was reading a book. I did a podcast with a gentleman and a journalist named Tom Sucker and he wrote and he writes about Hollywood's relationship to various government agencies historically. And you know, some of you know, some of it for better, some of it for worse. But one of the very interesting phenomenon, for example, was like with Top Gun, when Top Gun originally came out in theaters. I think you know, the the Air Force set up some, you know, stands outside the movie theaters and in a touch for recruiting. And if anyone had any questions, I've been to the movie. They were interested in pursuing a career and enlistment went up like a couple of 100%, you know, in the weeks, in the weeks following.

5:38 I mean, that's incredible. You know that there's no scientific event you could name. Book, podcast, movie, whatever that reaches as many people as one even middle, middle level movie. It does not need to be the big world's biggest blockbuster. You see millions of people, so it's a tremendous channel to get the word out. Yeah, yeah, certainly, certainly. What were some specific movies that that that inspired you growing up for for science, for for either creative purposes or that genuinely interest interested you scientifically? Well, for me it worked differently. I'm old enough that that that we still that we still doing B level science fiction movies and I mostly B level.

6:23 They were not major films. So some of the a lot of them were fun. You even knew that the science was wrong, completely wrong, but you enjoyed it anyway. So I'm also got interested 1st through books. There was an old science fiction author, Robert Heinlein, who was my real favorite. He got me into it that way. Eventually the films came along. 2001 certainly had its impact, but by that time I was already a practicing scientist. So there's a mixture of books and movies, but books had a huge impact on me. Right, Right, right. Right. Yeah. And there's, and there's also, especially in this world of science and, and this fictional world, building our imagination tends to work a lot more in, you know, with a lot more vibrancy than than a screen usually could, especially in the early 2000s or the 90s or 80s. For sure, Yeah.

7:14 And when you think about this, the wonderful special effects you can do in the film, really no book can match that. It's amazing what Hollywood does to make the dream seem real. It's just phenomenal. CGI in a way, in a way is lost. I think films depend on it a little too much and maybe forget about things like characterization, but it's a tremendous bonus for science fiction films. You can have the weirdest idea and show it on screen in a convincing and compelling way. That's marvelous. Yeah, it's a ton of fun. And, and, and then there's, and then there's various actual education purposes, right?

7:54 Because you have films that are there to kind of inspire new ideas. And then there's films that are there to teach people on a mass level about, about, you know, about, about how using scientific science as solutions to, to, to, to solving problems in the world. And there was a, there's a very interesting phenomenon that if you tend to see in films or television shows or any kind of, you know, anything that would require an agency's regulation or authority to publish. If you see, if you tend to see NASA, their that the, the focus is, the focus is typically on education. And if you see a Department of Defense or you see the FBI or the CIA or Homeland Security, then you tend to be in a little bit more of a Marvel esque superhero world in which science, science and defence and, and, and military in war unify and, and, and serve to, to protect humanity. And it feels like though, like those, like those, those a lot of these technologies are starting to really become quite, I mean, they're, they're coming to fruition in really cool ways. I've written a lot about about what used to be in science fiction, ideas that have become real. And we've reached the point, not only science fiction ideas, fantasy ideas which are less quoted in science. So Harry Potter has an invisibility cloak people have made.

9:18 OK, they're not full size. They wouldn't cover Harry Potter or you, you or me. But they can cover tiny objects in such a way that they're invisible. So that's just one example of fantasy becoming reality. Yeah, it's very cool. I mean, I think that there's even, I mean there, there kind of even the implication, I think even within Harry Potter that it seems that the wizard, the Wizards are more of an advanced, like they're, it seems like they're just more advanced technologically. It doesn't feel like the magic can't be attributed to science in any kind of particular way, you know? And there's this famous quote from I'm thinking who said it, that if the technology is advanced enough, it it seems like magic anyway. So right, it all merges, yeah.

10:04 Yeah, yeah, right. Sorry, please. But but speaking as a scientist and as a person interested in educating, it's nice to appreciate it and it feels like magic. That's great. It's fun. It's even better, I think, to see it on the second level, which is I understand what's really going on and what's happening in the real world that's making this fantastic effect. Certainly. Certainly I never appreciated music to the same degree until I started playing an instrument, you know? Exactly. You get into the weeds and then you learn what's really going on. I think you have a deeper understanding what urinalogy is a great one. Once you've learned I I played a little guitar.

10:45 I am not a great musician. I'll never even be a good musician. But I appreciate it now what a real musician can do. Certainly, yeah. I mean, and I think that the more that, and that's part of the fun of learning in general is, is, is the, is the enthusiasm that comes with, with realizing that everything could is this whole little universe in it of itself. And no matter where you look, you can look, I I mean, you could spend your entire life just researching your backyard and just be absolutely blown away, you know, every, every, every couple of days with what you discover. And I mean, it's, it's incredible. There's the Zen idea that that the master tells the student to do something like put a vase in front of you, look at it for six hours. You will learn things you didn't believe you would have learned just by looking at the vase.

11:33 So it's it's that kind of thing. Yeah, definitely. So can you tell me a little bit about the science that you were that you were you were researching while while you were practicing? Yeah, it was actually, it was a science that you don't hear enough about and yet it's a science that surrounds us. So at one level, physical is about the biggest concepts the have, the universe began how well and all of that. There's another level which deals with the stuff actually around us, the matter. I was a condensed matter physicist. These I studied solids and liquids, not so much gases. That's a little bit different. And that's the sciences behind our entire technology. That's a scientist that gave us integrated circuits for good and real.

12:19 It gave us integrated circuits and smartphones and everything that's come out of that. So I I studied materials that were interesting in themselves and also were good for technology. That's the kind of science I did. What motivated you just to to head down that path? How'd you how'd you decide to study that? And I actually was very much a personal, personal choice. The people who do the, the large scale science, huge telescopes and observatories, atom smashers like CERN usually have to work in groups of 1050, a hundred, a thousand. I wanted to do my own research on my own tabletop, small scale, but all mine.

13:00 But then that's what and I was able to do that on what I did. You can study the properties matter with tabletop equipment and come up with deep science. So it was a personal appeal as far as I'm concerned. And then, and then how would you find your way wandering down particular paths? And one of the reasons why I ask is because I've interviewed a couple of scientists on the show and some of them have said that they've started with a hypothesis or and you know, something, they have a location that they want to get to and then their careers about finding the way to get there. And then there are those who said that they started with a particular interest with no destination in mind and would kind of just chase whatever spoke to them at the moment.

13:42 So whether that was, you know, neurology and music and the, and the relationship between, you know, the, the, between music therapy and, and park and Parkinson's or dementia and, and you know, to, to cochlear implants and stuff like that. And all of this was basically just following intuition. How would you determine what to you know what what actual path to follow? It was more the second one, not starting with a hypothesis and wanting to pursue that and prove it, but being in the general area. I was interested in how material behaves, and I like the fact that it affected real life right into technology.

14:23 So I that was my general area. And then you look for problems that that need to be solved #1 #2 but every scientist will tell you, but you don't. You don't realize until you're in the game who will pay for you to do it. So you've got to go and find the government grant. So and what's that project like? Too, Yeah. Can you explain, can you can you can you break down with the process of getting funding as a scientist is like. I'm sorry, say that again, do do I? I'm sorry, can you explain what the process of getting funding as a scientist is like? Yeah. So if you're an academic, if you're an industrial scientist, a company's paying you to do research. And usually it's directed research they'd like.

15:03 They'd like to know the research will lead to a product for them. So there's less choice, but there's often very good funding for you. You can bet that Google puts a lot of money into AI and Ford, Ford puts a lot of money into making electric car, better electric cars and so on. If you're an academia, you have to come with an idea. You go to a government agency. The NIH is is the biggest one, but there's National Science Foundation, there's Department of Energy, and so on. A panel of experts reviews your proposal. If they think it shows promise, you get money that that's the basic ball game. Wow, I see. And are they risk averse in this project? How do how do they determine who gets who gets what? That's really, Yeah.

15:48 That's really an excellent question. There's constant debate about does this system encourage stuff that's only sure to work, or does it encourage stuff that that could shoot for the moon? And it's a delicate balance to try to match, Yeah. The the the the exact. The reason I'm asking is because I'm a big fan of the entertainment world and I know having read and interviewed people, one of the one of the time timeless arguments in the entertainment world is the studios want something surefire and the creatives want something new. The the studios are adverse to risk and I could only imagine that applies to a lot of other industries. That was just the basis. That was where I was coming from. Exactly. It carries over exactly. But but as I'm thinking of an answer, I'm reminded that I actually, I dealt with that in my own way and it worked for me. I'll tell you what it was.

16:37 I'd always try to have all these two projects going, one that I was sure would get funded and one that maybe would have wouldn't, but really interested me. So I was always some some money come. It's like being being in a marriage where you both have an income, one of you who uses the job, you still have some money coming and should always be some money coming in. And I could go with the blue Sky One and maybe eventually that we get funded too. So can you give me some examples of some fun stuff that you that you that was more risky and some stuff that was more, that was more, I guess stable or secure? The the more secure stuff, there were two classes of materials that are very important in technology and I studied both of them. One is semiconductors and now that's what goes into integrated circuits and chips.

17:25 And the other superconductors which know from the name and and what you read about them in in the media work only at very low temperature is so they have less commercial application. So I work in both the semiconductor money could almost research could almost always get money. The superconductor was iffier. I see there was there was no guarantee that it would ever turn into anything practical. And yet it has because now for quantum computing, they're talking about using superconductivity for some of the computers. So this very far out unusual idea, which requires tremendous, incredible refrigeration turns out to be perhaps be a viable consumer idea someday.

18:12 So interesting areas, yeah. That's really, you know, one thing I, I was just reading, I was reading a book called The Empire of AI and it's, it was pretty good. It was, it was, it's, and it's generally it's, it's a book about with written by an investigative tech journalist about open AI. And one of the things that she devotes quite a bit of time to is how much energy AI data centers take up and how and how much energy is required for our, you know, for the, for chat, you know, for the various versions of say ChatGPT or cloud or what have you to run that we're going to need. So we're spending a ton of money now on cooling, using, I think having to use clean water, I believe, I think and, and, and, and maybe Elon Musk was talking about putting them in space so that they don't need cooling.

19:00 Do you know anything about that? I know a lot about it because just wrote an article about it. Perfect. Well, maybe you could help. Yeah, you'll have to shut me up on this one, I'm telling you. Okay, let's devote a long, long article about it. Everything you said is correct. The amount of the amount of electrical power that AI will use by 20-30 is projected to be a significant, small, but significant percentage, like 3 or 4% of the entire electricity output of the entire world. So that's huge just for one industry. On top of that, you've got to use millions of gallons of water to cool these hyper gigantic, right? Yeah, clean water.

19:42 And then you put it on the environment. It's hot water. That's not good for the environment either. So there are a lot of issues around it. There are cities that are saying do not build an AI plant near anywhere near us. It's just going to be bad news all all around. So, so yes, it's a real issue and AI is a whole issue for for many, many, many reasons, not just for. Of course, I don't need to tell you or or our listeners at every everyone who reads newspapers aware of that, of course. Sure, sure. And as and As for alternative methods of cooling because that's how we got to this topic. But you know, I've heard that the two methods right now are underwater and in space. And I don't know maybe how how either one of them would hypothetically be viable.

20:32 But you mentioned that the supercomputing that is the Super compute conducting that you were doing was tied into that somehow. Yeah, yes. So if you made a superconducting computer, 1 plus is it uses much less energy to compute much. Less energy. That I'm sorry. I'm asking you said much less energy to compute you. Said much less energy to compute, but you need energy to run the refrigeration and keep it at the low temperatures. So there's a good side and the bad side. I think you'll end up ahead on the energy balance, but it's still a question whether we will ever have two superconducting or superconducting quantum computers. So that's the answer to that is still a big question mark. Putting them in space is just a non starter from if you think of what it costs to just send up 1 LB of stuff for a NASA mission, there's no way we'll have major manufacturing facilities in space for a long, long, long time. That is not going to happen.

21:34 Well, I, I understand so, so the to put a manufacturing facility for sure will take it will be decades, I'm sure, if not more. But if you, if I'm Elon Musk and I, you know, and Elon Musk is directly involved in pretty much every like every aspect of the supply chain for all of the, you know, for all of the AI, which is incredible. It's really crazy. And to watch also throughout the years, how each piece kind of came together is remarkable. But if he, if he said, you know, it's if it's more efficient, if it's, if it's taking up less of earths energy, it's cleaner. And I could be the first person to put a couple of data centers in space and to see how much energy we save by not needing to cool it.

22:25 You don't see that being anything that he that he'd be potentially interested in, in trying to, you know, even just for the sake of doing of trailblazing, which you know, that he loves to do. If someone could get the money together to put together some kind of a facility in space and make it happen, it'd be a great technical feat. No question about that. To have enough of them floating around would take trillions. There's an initial investment, I think that that would be a huge value. And there's one other point. OK, you you don't have to cool it, but it's still generating heat, which radiates out into space. We already have a problem with too many satellites around our planet.

23:07 There's no problem. Yes, it's a problem. It's a problem for astronomers, and it's actually a problem for space travel because you need to make sure if you want to rock it, you're not going to hit one of these satellites that are floating around. If you and I have satellites that are radiating huge amounts of energy, gigawatts, that's not necessarily something you want and then in our sky either. But I think there's an orphan solution and maybe, maybe must have this in mind. I'll suggest it to him if he asked me, but I'll tell you for free what it is. It is. You put joint reflectors in space and beam beam the power down to whatever place needs the power on Earth. And that's been considered too.

23:49 Is that is that basically function the same way as satellite works? Satellites trade a little bit of energy back and forth because they're sending radio signals back and forth. When I'm talking about a big reflector the size of a football field that takes sunlight and beams it down to Earth, it's converted to electricity. You get free electricity and you don't need to burn fossil fuel to do it. It's it's basically solar power done from space. Wow. That. Sounds really cool about that. Yeah, Yeah, cool indeed. Wow, it's so much fun because again, you know, I'm watching these Amazon TV shows or I'm watching these Apple TV shows and even the and what's most what's most fun about a lot of these, you know, these interesting fake worlds is that we're not too far.

24:41 Again, they all feel pretty real and tangible. I don't know if you watched the show Severance, which was about Apple TV show about the splitting of minds between work and out of work life and you have two, two totally different. Persons, I've heard about it. It kind of, yeah. It got a lot of attention. I did not watch it, but I kind of know the basic scheme. Yeah, yeah. So. Yeah, I think I, I think that I, I mean, I, I don't think it is beyond, I don't think the chance is zero. I don't think it's a crazy thing to say that the technology can evolve soon, that that would pretty much be the case that you can kind of switch your consciousness on and on, you know, different degrees of your awareness on and off for work. I, I don't know, I don't, I don't know what I think about that, but it feel, you know, it really, you really get to thinking.

25:32 And then when you watch a lot of the evolution of technology. I had a woman on the podcast, a doctor, doctor Lisa Gable, I believe out of Lafayette University. And she told me that in 2010, sixteen years ago, that she and engineering professor got teamed up and they used a hat. They're using EEG waves to control, to control a drone, you know, just using their just using electrical waves. I mean, that was 2010. I mean, you know, I mean, it's, it's incredible to see where we could be. They've even gone beyond that. The EEG works, but since the city has to go through the skull, it's not the finest level of control. What they've done now is they actually put a chip inside the brains of people who, for instance, are paralyzed and the ship overcomes some of the the neural problems that can certainly move all their limbs.

26:30 It's phenomenal. So yes, there's huge progress, Joe. That's an area I've written about quite a lot. Quite a lot too. I don't think we're yet at the point where you can plug in a chip and it enhances your mental ability, but I think that will come. You will have a hard drive in your brain or a computer in your brain. And if you're talking now about splitting into two different kinds of mental process, yes, I think that's not out of the question. Whether it's a good idea is a whole different discussion. Yeah, I don't, I, I don't know. I saw that Sam, I, I read an article a couple of years ago that Sam Altman had signed up for this, this to, to, to participate in the startup that digitizes your brain, even though the process of doing so might be fatal.

27:20 And there's, there's something about this whole thing that does seem pretty scary to me, you know, And we really, I think that the real question of what makes people people and humans, humans is something that we're really, really going to have to consider just because, and I think it's happening very slowly. So it becomes familiar in little steps at a time for people. It feels like we don't even like work. We don't even know what it really means to be a person anymore, especially with AI, you know, if AI, I forgot who that there's a game that AI, you go into a chat room with a real person and AI and you have to try to tell who's the real person or not. That's crazy, you know? Yeah, that that's, that's a famous Turing test. Alan Turing was a guy who defined what a computer should be like 6 or 70 years ago.

28:09 He was a brilliant British mathematician. If you don't know the name and he said the test would be, could you tell in conversation if it's a human or a machine? That's called the Turing test. And what we have now, Chachi B, Jack GBT and all the rest of it pretty much masters at they they beat the game. You talk to the one with the right personality on the computer, you can't tell if it's the human or not. So it it's phenomenal stuff. But I'll throw out a a thought to you. This is you can argue that we're already part where they are. So now people so attached to their phones that might as well be parts of their bodies and parts of their brains.

28:51 And there's evidence, for instance, that if you use a GPS and never again figure out how to find your way to an unknown location, you somewhat diminishing your abilities as a person and handing it over to the machine. So to some extent, that's already happening even without operating your brain and putting something inside it. And it's not, it's not a great trend. Yeah, I have to agree. And that's what I mean. That's kind of what I meant by slow rolling it because I think that as it becomes normal in society, I mean, it, it's, it's funny because this particular thing shook, you know, it, it, it stressed me out. I have a three-year old and a one year old and and my wife and I don't often take date nights, but we we, we got my my sister in law's a teacher.

29:39 We got it. We got a high school, high school girl to babysit. And they sit. Yeah, sit it down. Anything you want in the fridge, anything you want in the snack drawer. And here's ATV remote. Have a nice time. Right. I was going to come couple hours and I get back and the girl is sitting in the the pitch black room. The TV screens off. She's been on her phone and I said oh, you watch anything? She's like, no, I was on my phone. I said we were out for 3 1/2 hours. Yes, yes. I, I couldn't believe it. And even if she was watching, even the process of watching a movie, putting something on a screen and, you know, having a, you know, a communal experience to do something like that, that that's fading away real quickly. Well, I, I think, I hope people are starting to wake up, but people should.

30:21 It's really scary. I, I, I so much agree with you. And to add to what you just said, some of the communal experiences going away. Also, if you're watching the story on TV, there's a plot. Your mind is looking who's the murderer. If you're just rolling on your phone, you, you get a little 32nd blast of stuff and then you move on to the next thing. I don't think there's a coherent experience going on there. So it's a holder different way of using mine. I'm not sure it's a great way to do it, yeah. One of my good friends has a 5 year old daughter and he told me the other day that he does he he prefers he goes. I don't like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not extreme about it. He goes, but I if she wants to watch something, I prefer that she watch a 90 minute movie than YouTube clips for an hour. You know, he goes.

31:10 I in fact, I absolutely read he goes. It's good to think about the plot. It's good to notice the character development. It's good to follow a storyline like you said, and he said that, you know, she's five years old. This is the, you know, whether or not you think she's watching TV, you know, is another conversation. But if she's going to, I think it's good to I, I, you know, I mean, you hear a lot of amazing stories from, from a lot of great creatives who, who, who start understanding the process of storytelling and humanity at a very young age, just because they were exposed to it and there was a lot of passion around it. So I think that I think that we we pick up on it pretty quickly, but I think that as far as I think that we you know, this, this was a test generation with all these smartphones and social media and everyone and everyone is a bunch of Lab Rats in, in, in this mass experiment sort of feels like.

31:57 And there may be a backlash to it was starting. And I think it's kind of been amplified by the AI because now we're talking to a machine that seems like it could be human. So it's even more seductive. You you read, I'm sure as I have, of people falling in love with their AI, advising when it's bad advice and maybe even committing suicide because the AI, one of us encouraged it in Florida. But it's true, yeah. Yeah, and it acts out and it acts out. There's two stories I just saw. I there was one story I saw a month ago, I don't know if you saw this, that that there was a Meta, a research AI safety researcher at Meta. And she had she was using this new clawed bot, this chat bot, and she had instructed it to ask for approval before it does any before it before it does any actions. And then out of nowhere it just started it says like activating nuclear safety mode, deleting all emails prior to say February 10th and just started permanently deleting her e-mail. She had to run to the server and break it down. Boy.

33:05 And then you. And then yeah, yeah, wow. And then she said, what are you doing? And it's and she it said, you're right. I did not do as what you explicitly directed me to do. It was wrong with me. I apologize. I wrote it into my memory and I won't do it again. But that's crazy. That's being integrated into government operations. It's being used in war. It's being used in, you know, I mean, it's used, it's being used for flights, for federal, you know, for, for flight regulation. Now I heard it's it's starting to be integrated. It's crazy. And of course, science fiction is is already foreseen that the whole Terminator series comes. So we we don't yet have armed robots, but that could happen too. Yeah. You know, to go back to what we've said before, the sci-fi and the real world are getting closer and closer ways that you can't believe.

33:55 Yeah, yeah, it really, it really is. OK. I want to talk about something that's not going to stress me out as much. Can you tell? Me. Either of us. Either of us, yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about your, about Friedman's balloon and how you came up with that story, what the story is about? And, and because I, because I remember, I, I was looking at that, I was looking into that and I thought that it really looked delightful. And I wanted to hear how you how you came out, how you came about dealing with that or creating. It I'm I'm glad you picked up on it because an interesting story and it's not very well known. Alexander Friedman was a young mathematician just at the time when Russia turned into the Soviet Union. So he was there for the change and then he lived through the chain and he survived and it. So he first became known in World War One. The Russians were in World War One, They were on the side against the Germans.

34:45 He was a navigator for bombers. Planes had dropped bombs on German installations. His bombs always landed. And the reason is he was a mathematician. He figured out the exact spot to which to drop it from which to drop it. So you'd hit the target. The other, the other bombardiers couldn't do it. He could. She became well known for that. So great mathematician in this case, he applied it to war. And he actually had reservations about doing that, but he did it. He did it because he was good soldier. After the war. We're now in the era when Einstein started to develop the theory of relativity and he published the his theory general relativity, which is about the whole universe because it's about how gravity works.

35:36 It's the theory of gravity. And like every young scientist at the time, Kingman looked at what Einstein was doing, was very interested in and looked at the math, very complicated math. You really need to be a mathematician to get it, and he saw that Einstein had made what in his opinion, was a mistake. Einstein's math showed that the universe would never get bigger or smaller but would stay the same. Said that's not right. It can either grow or get smaller. It can change. He wrote Einstein, he had the nerve. He was a nobody. He was a nobody. But he had the nerve to write Einstein and say, excuse me, Sir, I know you're a great scientist, brilliant, but I think that an error in your calculation and Ashley was not terribly mean about it. He did write back and say, I, I've looked at at your work and I'm sorry, I do not think you're correct. And the statement it was done.

36:33 So he he had a friend, another mathematician who believed in in Friedman and actually visited Einstein in Germany and said, please take a look again at Friedman's work. We all think Harley and him and Russia. We know Russian science is not it was actually Soviet science at the time. It's not very well appreciated in the rest of Europe, but please. For America. Right. And then in the world, the Soviet, so Russia and then Soviet were considered backwards compared to Europe and America. But his friend begged Einstein to take a look again. And Einstein showed he really was a good man.

37:13 He said, I'll look again. And lo and behold, he checked and checked and he, he wrote an article that said my previous statement was incorrect. Mr. Friedman or Doctor Friedman, whatever title he wanted to use is correct. The universe can grow or get smaller. He was correct. So when I, when I wrote the play, the play was centered around the fact, the fact that Friedman took this risk. He wrote the letter, his friend went on his behalf. Then they're sitting there wringing their hands out on video. You see me wringing my hands you. That's what I'm doing. Waiting to hear back from Einstein and when the hair back it's just total joy.

37:56 Even became famous in Russia as the guy who defeated Einstein in a good way, in a good way. I showed he really was a good person. He bow to the truth is not try to cover it up. There's one more piece of the Friedman story since again, he was a great mathematician who also got into the mathematics of weather, weather forecasting and climate. And this is still in the 1920s. There were aircraft, but the way to really get up and look at the atmosphere from way high up was in a balloon. So he went up in a famous balloon ascent, which at that time set the world's record for height. There's a movie about this, wasn't there?

38:36 I did not. I if so, I did not know that you please e-mail if you can figure the name. Yeah, Yeah, that would be fantastic. I think I even have the script here. Hey God. Yeah, it's called Aeronauts over here. It's with it's best original screenplay oh firm of your consideration rather by it's this man it's Amazon Studios. I'll send you the link to it after. Yeah, please do one right. That's fantastic. Thank you. Yeah, sure. Of course. And let me see. It's supposed to be the story of James Glacier, his name John True. This is not the same people. It's not the same people. Amanda Wren. Amelia Wren.

39:19 All all the names would have been Russian names. Oh man, OK, never mind. I take it back then I apologize. They got all excited. No problem, no problem. He went up with the Soviet army balloonist that reached the world's record. And how do I forget what it was? It was like 7 miles up, was unbelievable. They almost passed out from oxygen deprivation, but they came back to Earth. But they ended in Siberia, not anywhere near Moscow. And on the way back, Friedman caught cholera and he died of that young. He was still in his 30s. Wow, Very fascinating life. Getting, getting things right when Einstein got it wrong was high point. But he did all the fascinating things too. He was quite a guy.

40:04 He he was a, a skinny, meek looking little guy with glasses. And he did this fantastic stuff. He was and I was very impressed by his life. How'd you how'd you come across his work? I read a book about him and that inspired me and I said I have to. I'd all I just in a play about another scientist and I said I can do this. So I wrote a one act play. We put it on in my university and everyone had a good time. Tell, can you tell me about the, the process of writing a play? Because I, you know, I, I, I found myself a little allergic based on a probably a stupid stigma, you know, to going to attending the college plays. And then I had to do a couple for different classes that I was in, and I found myself blown away by the talent that, you know, that that that's out there. And that's when that that that that's that that first set me down, the realization that there's far more talent than fame in this world and that, you know, you could still look around almost anywhere you are and find incredible talent. So tell me about the playwriting process. OK, I'll tell you about it, but I just want to echo what you said.

41:11 Not only is there a talent writing a play, the experience of being in a room with live people, acting, vlogging, funny makes film look absolutely flat. You get a different a different thrill out of it, right? If the people have never been to a theater, do it sometime. You, you won't believe you. Impressive it is. Imagine here is how it happened to me. It's actually because of a student. I had a a student at Emory University. That's where I taught in Atlanta. I had a student who had been writing place since she was in high school and she came to college. I gave a course basically physics for non physicists that she took.

41:53 It was it was talk about the IT was a course about science and art, how science and art connect and I always had them write a term paper. So she came up to me and said, Professor Perkowitz, instead of writing a paper, could I write a play for you? So I I thought a minute, no one has ever suggested this before. I said yes, it has to have science in it and the science has to be correct. Nice. So she wrote a terrific play. She went out and talked to physicists. She wrote a great play. And that weapon was the feeling. If an 18 year old kid can do this, I ought to be that was. Tragic. Incredible.

42:39 Go ahead, finish what you're going to say I'm. So sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm just going to say that that's such a huge benefit of college and also having a professor like. That absolutely. The education goes both ways. In this case, it really worked. Yeah. She impressed me so much so I said I can do it. I actually got some hint tips from her while I was writing. She helped me think how to write dialogue. Nice, yes I had a hard time with that too. Yeah, that's the hardest part. And it's where it's one of the other place where movies differ from plays. Movies can, can, can bowl you over with great spectacle.

43:20 You don't do that in a play. You bowl people over with great conversation, great ideas, great characters. And she was better at dialogue than I was. Her tips were very, very good. So she gave me some tips. That's not the first play I wrote, it's the second one. But both plays were inspired by this student. She went on to become the most produced young playwright in America, and she's still very active and a lot of her plays have to do with science and women in science. So I my teaching influenced her and her response influenced me. It was a great combination. I'm really proud of the whole, the whole deal. It was a good deal all around. It's amazing. It's such a, it's so wonderful.

44:00 I, I have it, I teach high school English and, and one thing that I, I find myself having to keep myself aware of in real time is that when a student asks me to do an assignment an alternative way, it's my natural instinct to say, no, I don't even know why, you know, because it wasn't the way that I thought of it. And then I have to, and I have to catch myself and think, well, well, why not? And why? And are they still getting the point of the class out? You know, when you say to her that she still has to get to have science in it and have the science work, that's that like that is that you're, you're, you're doing your responsibility as an educator in literally the best way because you're encouraging her to do it in her voice, but to make sure that it's accurate and make sure that she's that, that she's, she's processing and, and, and, and, and really understanding information along the way.

44:49 I don't. I think I'd seen on your website that you teach, but now you remind me. So I think we're both telling each other to be open to student ideas and have them use it in a way that makes them smarter and better and meet a goal and be good students. That's the ultimate of being a teacher. I I sure where you see openness. Yeah. Then it's hard. I initially said no too, and yet yet I thought from then I said why not exactly what you said. She could do something great. And she did, yeah. That's really cool. It's it's so much fun. And and I wanted to ask you actually, since you are, since you did study material sign material condensed matter, which is like you said with solids and liquids.

45:36 I'm speaking in the next week or two, I hope, to a plasma physicist who is you who who studies using plasma as a form of propulsion in hunting in in Huntsville, AL. I wanted to know your thoughts on the type of questions to ask for to, to, to really understand the, the, the topic in the, in the in the best and most Broadway. What would you what would you recommend? OK, so the the first thing, which I'm sure you've already thought is to make sure people understand what a plasma is. So if you can, if you can get him to explain that in a clear way, that'll be great. Since he's using it for rocket propulsion. He's in Huntsville.

46:21 This is for NASA. The really interesting question is why does it offer that? The ways we do it now doesn't offer. Right now you use chemical fuel, and that's good enough to get to get a rocket ship to the moon or even even way out to the edge of the solar system, out to Pluto, although that's unmanned. So chemical fuels are pretty good. There's a lot of activity in trying to find better, better methods. 1 is nuclear, one is 1 is plasma. So ask him about the comparison of those three and how far. Yeah, I think that's a key question. How far along the nuclear is and the plasma is compared to the chemical?

47:04 Chemical is like the established one. The other two of the other new guys on the block, how are they coming along? That's cool. Yeah, that'll be enough, I think to get him going, yeah. Yeah. And then the second gentleman is a more, is a more stereotypical rocket propulsion scientists. And, and he, I, I spoke with him yesterday actually, and our 10 minute phone call turned into an hour and a half. So I'm sure we'll have no problem with that conversation. But wait. But but again, from year from year background, what would you think would be important to know or to specifically try to guide him towards as far as foundations of the rocket of actual rocket science?

47:45 You know, I think the question that fascinates everybody is there's a universal speed limit, speed of light. We don't have any propulsion method that would enable us to get to the nearest store in less than thousands of years. As a guy for either guy, actually a propulsion guy or rocket guy. It'd be nice to ask what are the prospects for getting something that will let us get up, let's say to 10% of the speed of light. Would that, would that ever be possible speed of light or anywhere near it, like 90%? I doubt it will ever be possible. If you ever get up to 10 or 15 percent, you could do some really nice stuff with that 10%.

48:26 What can you do? If you if OK, I'll give you some numbers. The nearest store we know about that that might have planets is 4 light years. That means it would take you 4 years to get there if you could go with the speed of light. If you go with 10% of speed of light, take 40 years. That's still a long time. You can imagine building the ship that people survive on for 40 years. If you just use chemical fuel, we're talking about thousands and thousands of years. So that's the difference. Begin to see parts of the universe beyond our solar system in almost a reasonable human lifetime. That would be the big deal.

49:10 Yeah. Ways from that. What propulsion method do you think might get us to maybe 10% of the speed of light? Yeah. I mean, and, and one of the things that he and I talked about on the phone was, was the UAP phenomenon at this point, you know, and I don't even know if it's being intentionally thrown into the zeitgeist so dramatically, but it's really been out there, whether you're talking about political, you know, from political, a political perspective with Trump and heck, Seth and, and pretty much the entire cabinet getting behind this movement and saying that they're trying to publicize it to the Pentagon, actually announcing that they're going to release it. And then you actually have a lot of scientists coming out and, you know, and you know, coming out. But but one thing again, that you can't ignore and you know, so when people say Uaps or UFOs, everyone thinks aliens, but there's no, there's there's a very, very clear relationship between military bases that are, that are generally studying nuclear or various forms of propulsion or rocketry and, or energy.

50:13 And there's direct relation between them and UFO sightings, UAP sightings. So, you know, the, the, so I'm, I, I don't think it's really so much up in the air as to the, whether or not we have, we're kind of breaking grounds with this science or have been developing it. I mean, allegedly you've been developing it since the 50s. What do you what do you think about all this? I I've tried to keep track of what's going on. I have to say my honest, honest answers do not know what to believe. Yeah, the whole ET thing, and are they really among us and so on, is just sprung into openness in the last couple of years. And we've reached a point, I'm sorry to say, but it's true that I don't even know whether to trust what our own government says.

50:59 And then separating that from leaks and rumors and conspiracy theories, it seems to get harder every day. So I have no idea what to believe. I'm ready to keep an open mind. If someone shows me some real evidence that there are other beings, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. The odds that there was life elsewhere are extremely high. I cannot believe we're alone in the universe but not yet heard anything that is totally convincing to me one way or the other. Yeah. Well, what about the actual, I mean, we have, for example, you know, radar records of these crafts moving at that at speeds that that we thought were don't make any sense or instant propulsion.

51:41 Or there's one video, for example, of this, the the orb thing going through the, you know, it's basically by flying by the surface of the water and it kept on going into the water and then back out, but it wasn't slowing down when it would enter the water is maintaining the same speed. And so, you know, and again, the extraterrestrial or not, let's put that question aside, you know, does the science exist or, you know, do you think that this, that this kind of experimental new form of, you know, propulsion or, or energy exists? Or do you think that this like what, Like what I, I, because I, I again, you're right about the, the not, not being able to discern truth from reality with ETS and stuff like that. But as far as the actual, you know, crafts, there's a lot of them.

52:27 OK, a lot of things that reporters seem to violate basic physics. They talk about objects that stop, stop, turn on a dime and move again. Well, there's a thing called inertia. Right. Which would prevent that? Yeah, You would see that there's, I would say there's two kinds of of alternate reality. One is the kind where the science is correct, but it still takes engineering to make it happen. So you might be able, you might be able to design A supercomputer that would work in space and get it up there. It's just a matter of engineering. The other kind is where it seems to violate all the basic science we know.

53:11 Something that goes 1000 miles an hour it can turn on a dime does not seem compatible with the laws of mechanics as far as we know them. So then what do you do with that information? Do you disregard it or do you study it? Is this do you take it as inspiration like a sci-fi movie to like understand something new? But how do you, how do you, how do you like, what do you do with that information? I think I wait to see if someone will pop up and do the experiment and the data and the video and the film and the eyewitnesses. Is that, yes, it's really happened. You know, I take it that when you say a radar operator saw a blip that operated, that worked in a very strange way, that person is telling the truth.

53:52 Is he or she sees it? A radar operator is also a human. They're also subject to misinterpretation and other things too. So I really don't know what to make of that. Sure. Have you ever come across a gentleman named Jesse Michaels? He has a show called American Alchemy. No, no, it's new to me. Tell me. Oh, well, you know, he's very interesting because he's a very science oriented, very intelligent documentarian and he makes these amazing documentaries and and is very, very careful to never a leap to any conclusions. B make any statements without evidence, and C makes very clear when the speculation is a speculation. But then we'll also like, say we know that this is this and we know that that is that.

54:39 But we don't know how they relate to one another, how they go together, how it's possible. Like what you said, for example, with the stop and the dime and the inertia example, you know, maybe I'll send you, I'll send you something. I'll send you maybe, maybe one of his, one of one of his documentaries and I'd love to hear what you think about that. That would be good. Let's do that. There might be a future conversation coming out of that. Perfect. Beautiful. Yeah. Well, Doctor Sidney Berkowitz, I really, I want to thank you so much for your time. This is such a fun conversation and I really feel like we got to explore not only a lot of science, a lot of fun conversations, but a lot of creative and cool and out-of-the-box conversations, which is exactly what I aim for.

55:19 So I really thank you so much for your time today. It means a lot. You had good questions. You listen. Listen to what I hope were good answers. So I think we both walk away happy. I think so too. I'd love to stay in touch. And maybe after you listen to that, that, that thing, we'll do another episode in a bunch of months from now, OK? And now I know that you do video and next time I'll I'll be ready showing show my office the way it looks now and me myself right now would drive away your entire viewership. I promise you. Did you favorable and not showing up, but next time I'll be ready. We can we can do it all. We'll even go 3D. We're going to go 3D next time. Beautiful. Well, I I forgot, were we going back and forth about Seattle, WA?

56:03 Yes. What was your connection with Seattle? Yeah, tell me about. That Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, it's funny. I have one of my leaving leaving college. I got a creative writing and literature degree which was practically useless I'm. Sorry to hear that. Yeah. And I ended up working with my father. I swore my whole life I would never do such a thing. And I ended up working with him selling medical equipment and I was living at home and I was ready to jump off the roof of my parents house. And, and my buddy calls me and call from college and goes, I got into grad school at University of Washington and I really want to go there. They have a great program for urban planning, but I don't know anyone going anyone lives there.

56:48 So I didn't even hesitate. I said I'll move there and then. And then I hung up the phone and I called two other friends of mine and I said, do you want to come? You know, me and this friend are moving to Seattle and they said they, they basically said if you guys are really doing it, we'll do it with you. And, and then within a, you know, a couple of weeks or a couple of months, we got, we rented a house and we, and you know, we packed up our cars and drove cross country and spent the year there. Right story. I love and I, it was 2019 into 2020. And what's interesting is, you know, obviously that's when COVID broke out. But I got to spend 6 months, you know, socially in Seattle, like with the people and at the breweries and, you know, at the, at the shops and at the coffee bars and stuff like that at the parks. And then I got to spend 6 months in the nature around, around Washington.

57:34 Yeah. And that's really where the magic happened. And that's where my, you know, that's how I really fell in love with the Pacific Northwest. We moved. We moved here full time five years ago from Atlanta. We have a son here who got his PhD at UW. Nice. So he got info and I know what a good school it is. Yeah, he got a great degree, actually, an AI, believe it or not. Wow, really? What do you what do you still what what's what was the concentration in what application? The concentration was AI ended up never worked. He worked in in the less exciting part of that data mining. But that's that's important. And that's an important idea. That's the whole ball game. Now he works for Google Music, figuring out how to arrange their music catalog. Wow, it's an incredible data set. It's a big deal.

58:20 It's not a trivial problem in setting up the date in a way that users want, want access to it. So. So I know it's a good school. We know Seattle is a great place to live. We live in West Seattle. We just love it. We just love it. Yeah. Out here again we'll have a chance to meet in person now I'll. Be there. I'll be there this summer. I'll be there this summer. I'll. I'll give you a call. That'll be great. You know where to reach me. That would be very nice. Of course. All right, Doctor Berkowitz, thank you so much for the time. There's so much. And please, shouldn't they? Now we're informal. OK, you got it. Well, Cindy, thank you so much. It's such. A pleasure. Have a pleasure to meet you Efram, and congratulations on doing this. I think you have the right personality for this kind of pod show podcast.