Science Series 7: Tim Pickens / Rocket Science / Hybrid Propulsion / UFO’s / Missing Scientists

0:01 Welcome to another episode of Come Together, Tim Pickens, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here and I wish you were just recording for the last hour, but we will keep it up because like I've said more than once so far, her reality is I think science fiction, at least for me. But if not for 95 or more percent, I would imagine of people out there, you take rocket, you take the word rocket science and bring it to a lot of different places. So I want to just kind of let you go and tell me a little bit about what you've done in your free time and what you've done in your professional time.

0:50 That is really just what is, what's so incredible. I mean, it's so cool. Well, well, thanks for having me on this is, you know, I don't do a lot of these, but it's kind of fun to talk about the weird stuff, the the real stuff and maybe the weird, the weird, real, real, real stuff. I don't know. Yeah, farewell. We'll get there. We'll get. There the weird real stuff. I don't know, but I've worked, you know, doing the space exploration, trying to lower the cost to get people to space for my most of my adult life. I dreamed about it before then, but I just didn't think I'd really had the brain power to really make a difference probably than believe in myself. And I, I, to be honest, I kind of fell into just taking classes and kind of just doing my own thing, learning my, my, my whole home's a library of technical books, but everything's applied. Most everything I have it.

1:47 If it doesn't say applied, I would rather give it away because it's probably going to be above my head. So it's, we got to build stuff. But I'll tell you, it's been an incredible journey And it started with just me wanting to make a difference in the industry and found some friends and we, I decided I was going to buy a lay the metal a then I own a meal machine and start buying NASA valves because I wanted the good stuff. It's, I'd go to sales and I start inviting friends over and we, we got together with our, with a space club and next thing you know, two nights a week we're building a rocket to put a little critter in space and we want to hit 50 miles and we're used. No way. We use the balloon. We use the big balloon. And next thing you know, three years later, we're flying them off the coast of the Atlantic.

2:34 Got a question? Who, who's we? How did you find these people? Most people in this world cannot find a group of people I think you know, to, to hang out with a couple of times a week. And also, you know, I, I was shocked and I've only heard this recently as the news wave has hit. But you live in a you live in a particular part of the world that is very folk, you know, that has a lot of high concentration of people that are interested in the same thing as you are. That's right. He's more per capita. I think anywhere in the country is Huntsville, AL. So it is the Rocket city. I was born there when I I was born in 64 and I there were probably about 50 or 60,000 people there. Now there's well over 1,000,000 people and I think you said you visited up there.

3:17 Yeah. It's just a different place. You know, I'd go to the Space and Rocket Center all the time and I would, I mean a lot. And I would think, wow, why is this stuff so expensive, man? How are we going to make a difference? How could I make a difference? And it just bombed me out that we had a museum full of stuff that probably could have flown and and it was like, are you kidding? This is crazy. We'll we'll kill a program, then we'll go do something else. Politics chicks will kill another one. And it's like, this is not sustainable. And I really wanted to make a difference. So this this rocket to space, the first amateur space shot we hit 36 miles in about two years. By the way, that was the highest we got in the giddiest book of world records, 2000 Millennium.

4:01 And what's space? Considered that was 50 miles high, the international recognition is 62 miles, 100 kilometers, but we were just, we almost, but it was the highest. So the Guineas picked it up and we didn't push Guineas to do that. It just showed up. The point is we learn how to build stuff from nothing out of the trash can. I mean, this is where I come up with the idea of the nitrous oxide and the asphalt fuel for I'm talking roof and tar that became the propellant and everybody's like, are you kidding? Normally we'd use this rubber called HTPB. It's kind of like rubber from micro pencil racers.

4:42 This is what they use with the oxidizer in it to make solid rocket motors. But this is typical. I said, let's try asphalt because it's got a lot of energy in it and they make plasticizers. I already looked it up. We can make it where where it's real rubbery and and they do that to make sure it doesn't crack on roofs. And I said, there's a lot of data and I said, let's my wife's the chemistry major and I said, how much energy is there in a, you know, an announcer gram? And she said, are you kidding? She's a thermochemistry. That's not my thing. It's a she's organic Anyways, she didn't want to talk about it. So I had to Start learning some math and chemistry and I'm digging and I'm thinking, oh gosh, this is so, so heavy, man.

5:26 The next thing you know, I'm we're doing, I'm doing thrust measurements with force gauges and I'm learning instrumentation. I'm doing testing in my front yard, you know, making a lot of noise. Oh yeah, man, I've got smoke coming out of the yard and the neighbors asking am I OK? And I'm and I've got a chart recorder with pens and it's taking the data and I'm and I'm getting the thrust under the curve and I'm and I'm and I'm chopping it up and put it in excel in my brother-in-law. He's a physicist. He comes by. So are you working on some calculus? I said, no, I'm, I'm just integrating this little areas here. He said, well, that's what you're doing. And here's the really quiet.

6:07 And I'm like, oh, I don't want to get into all that math. And then when stuff blew up and burned up, I thought, oh gosh, I'm gonna have to learn about materials and strength and stress and the, and I say, you know, you know, but, but The thing is, there was this group of people that love the National Space Society. They'd have monthly speakers. So the guy that was running it, he said, we've got about $10,000 leftover from a national space society. We, we had a big convention here and we, he said, we'd love to do that amateur space shot. He said. I said, well, I've got some ideas for rockets where we won't kill ourselves with making solid rocket propellant. If some something went South, you know, we'd have a big fireball. So you got a question.

6:50 Yeah, real quick. I'm sorry. Yeah, No. Problem. To clarify, right, in case anyone doesn't understand, what's a typical way that rockets, that rocket propellant is used or was it typically made of and what was unconventional about the way that you were going about it? OK, Well, you can make fireworks, by the way, in your house just like you'd buy at a fireworks stand. And you might have a little ball rocket and that may have nothing more than black powder in it, just like the old muskets. And it's basically has a, an oxidizer that's, that would be like a potassium nitrate fertilizer. And they would have a sulfur and a little bit of a charcoal that that's the ingredients. And that's pretty much what solid rocket motors are. When you see them firing them at different people, different countries, it's this stuff rubber. But they, they, it's when it's still gooey and rub before it cures, they mix oxidizer in.

7:42 And that could be fertilizer by the way. I see ammonium nitrate is another better is another one, but but potassium nitrate. So that's a solid rocket motor. Once you light it, you can't cut it off. You're committed a bunch of this in your house and your garage in the neighborhood. And we have a spark. Guess what? We may not, we may not make it right. This thing's trying to update. Hold on later. OK, sorry. So, yeah, this, this is this is how they do solids and in the BATF. And everyone was getting freaked out about people and and terrorism and they didn't want people buying rockets. Well, I said, well, why don't I did steam rockets, by the way, I did big steam rockets in my driveway before I ever want to to go to space.

8:27 I was firing a big engine and it would just be be steam all throughout the front yard. And I'm sitting there with my chart recorder and I'm integrating all this data and I flew that rocket weighed about 55 lbs. I flew it to 2000 feet several times. And I'm the guy that would come out with the little kids and they got the Estes and I'm hauling around a generator pals of water in this 15 foot tall rocket. And they're like, we don't know if this is sanction. And I'm like, I'm only going to go 1000 feet maybe. And I'll tell you, I freak people out. And I didn't even think I said it's just water. It's just, we're not going to go out there once we make steam. So I anyways it I really got in deep, man.

9:08 I went in from SD's rockets from Walmart or Kmart to bigger rockets. So because of this inherent, this stuff can kill you if you get, you know, if you have a batch go up. What I did is I said we got to count something different. That's where the nitrous oxide and the asphalt fuel. So you keep them separated. Nitrous is in its own tank like the racers use. OK. And then we have the asphalt over there in this rocket motor case. OK. And with all that, you have the two separated, so you don't have an oxidizer mixed with until you open a valve. In fact, I'll show you a piece of hardware real quick. And when you open and open it, opening the valve allows the two to mix and then they mix.

9:52 That's. What it is, This is one of our Club Rocket. That's the nozzle, that's an igniter up in there. This is full of asphalt, and this is where the nitrous comes in, and it's all right here. Wow. And then and then where's the, where's the lever in the middle? Where's the lever that allows you to to separate them? It's all nitrous in a tank way up above this nitrous way up. The nitrous is about a 10 foot long tank attached to this. OK I see there is a pyro valve I design in here. So when you light that igniter and that pressure right there is nitrous, it'll blow that valve open and it'll auto ignite this. And this puts out about 800 lbs of thrust for 30 seconds but. We have.

10:38 We built this in my garage. Man, this is homemade rockets. This one was to go to 62 miles over 62 but we had some problems but I'll put that away, sorry. No, no, no. That's awesome. That's awesome. But anyways, I really got into this and I wanted to put one on my bicycle, man, I want to ride that, that that power fill that little hand of God pushing me out of the road. So I did man, a body Glen, the guy hired to be my first technician. We, we built one. The fuel was plexiglass, just a piece of plexiglass with a hole drill down the middle with a little injector, a hole and we spray the nitrous in and it would light it.

11:19 We'd have to light it with like with a sparkler. You ever play with a sparkler with your kids, you light them and you shove it up the nozzle and then you open the nitrous valve and when the then it starts lighting and you blow that sparkler out and you have a thrust. And it was like. About 40 lbs of thrust. So we were riding it down the neighborhood and we were getting it down through there. And then later I built the faster one that would do zero to 60 in five seconds. And it was it was asphalt with nitrous. And then so, you know, eventually all this Club Rocket stuff went on from 1994 to 2000. Hey everyone real quick if you're enjoying the show, click subscribe and rate the show. 5 stars helps a ton. Thanks so much.

12:05 And a guy came to town named Burt Rutan who was looking at, he's an airplane expert. He's had lots of planes in the Smithsonian and it was all composite. He's like, I'm bored with airplanes. I want to go to space. And I'm at this event in 1999 and a little bitty airport. And he said, he said, I said, I'd like to talk to you about cheap, low cost rocket motors. He's so good. We're looking for people in Huntsville. You rocket people, you, you are the people I need. He said, I can't have NASA build it because it cost more than the program, because we only got 25,000,000 to do a program eventually. But but this man right right here came to Huntsville. Burt Rutan, that's me. Wow.

12:46 And he came to. 99 Saying I'm bored with airplanes. This. Is the same guy that built the plane to fly around the world nonstop called Voyager? Amazing made history. It's hanging Smithsonian. You see that? That's the spaceship, that's the mother ship to drop it from 55,000 feet. That man right there started talking to me and we started exchanging emails and ideas Free. Free. To you or you walked up to him? How? Do you mean I just said, hey, I'm, I play with rockets. We did it. We did a balloon launch. I said we did a couple of them. We did one at the Gulf of Mexico. We were on the NASA barge 200 miles out with a balloon with a homemade, they did rocket and it and it fell off the balloon and hit the deck and it like almost explode.

13:31 It was that nitrous. It was horrible. But we're doing this as weekend warriors, amateurs not getting paid. NASA loaned us the barge because they wanted to see how you might do balloons and rockets. No kidding. Marshall Space Flight Center. So this is one of those programs you'll never hear much about, but. Marshall Space Flight, What is it called? The Marshall what? Marshall Space Flight Center. It was, it was a he called the balloon rocket a raccoon rocket, a balloon raccoon. So we can, we talked to, we were the raccoon buffoons 'cause we dealt with rockets and balloons and it was horrible. But we lost the first one out of Topsail Beach up there in the Carolinas where they with the Wright brothers flow.

14:15 We lost. Wow. That's the one that went to 36 miles. But anyway, eventually he said he called me one day in 2020, but almost 2020, when he said, hey, I'm funded, Paul Allen's funding my program. He said. I want you to come work for me and lead my rocket engine development. And who's Paul Allen? Sorry. Paul Allen is the Co founder of Microsoft with Bill Gates. Wow. And and and and and so he's. A billionaire Seattle Seahawks, he owns, they own them. He's he's died. He died now. But he said, I need you out here in two weeks. And I said, Bert, I said there's a lot smarter Rocket people than me. I said, go find you a PhD, find you somewhere, He said, Tim, he said, I've seen your Rocket bike.

15:00 I saw your rocket pickup truck in your garage when I visited you and and he and he also flew me around in a couple of places and said, do you mind if I pay you to, to go with me and look at some technology? And so I did that on my vacation. What was that like? Can you talk about that at all or? You're not allowed to. I can sure there's nothing I can talk about anything. It's all happening 2004 the IT was weird because people knew that I was into hybrid rockets and we're going to see some hybrid come. One of them was right down there in Miami near where you are. It was called EAC. It was owned by a guy named Kevin Smith who had about 300 patents or more on medical devices. You want to look him up?

15:43 He passed away. He used to live down there in Biscayne Bay and had a big ship out in front of his yard. That was Kevin. But that company have is called EAC Environmental Arrow Corporation I think. But he had lots of companies. So he did a lot of 1 offs for for Johnson Johnson and they're still going. Some of the guys down there, Derek Deville and some others that are still making medical devices. You might run across them in some of your circles, but we went down there. They were glad to see me because Bert didn't have them on the list. And I said, Bert, some of the most creative guys, Corey Kleiner right there in Miami. He said, will you fly with me down there? And I said OK.

16:24 And we we went down and we met and, and Kevin had a personal chef and we're right there on Biscayne Bay and they get into it. 2A personalities cussing each other out, Kevin saying we're the only ones that could do this for you. Root 10. Everybody else are clowns and and you know, so it was just a disaster. So it was retaining because I didn't I'm not I'm not in the fight. I'm I'm just eating the good food and watching the but anyway, I remember Bird said, Oh, you GD this rocket guys all think you're the only people who could do this. It was not good, but we ultimately used them after a little competition. We use them for pieces of it. When I say I led the development, nobody had ever built a big motor to fly people.

17:10 None of these companies and of course I ride them on my truck and I've done a lot, a lot, but still none of these companies had the capability to do a big rocket motor. None of them. Well, we took that own in house and they ended up saying we'll do the fuel we'll do the we'll do the rubber fuel like this, we'll put the fuel in it and compete for for the performance, you know, for the for the gas mileage. Anyways, I tried to get out of this deal, man, it was just fate. I couldn't Bart's like man, I, I can't hire and ask a guy They'll they'll make this thing cost a billion dollars. I need someone's check Ted. We got 25,000,000 to do the entire program. That and.

17:52 What year was this? 2002. So there wasn't anything or anything. Well, it flew in 2004 is when it all went up and other players in the game, other players were really no serious players. There were a lot of companies that claimed they were going to be able to do it, but it was just a Bert was the top dog. He was a real funded guy. Plus he's done a lot of airplanes, man. I mean, like I said this, this is just another crazy Rutan day here. That's his. They call this some other ship. That plane would go to 55,000 feet and drop this spaceship and we'd light that motor and go over 62 miles high.

18:38 Incredible. And by the way, this is crazy cowboy stuff, man. I mean, there ain't no space suits. This is This is. Well, who's how's this allowed? You know, how's anyone willing? Exactly. You'd say, you know, how are we? You don't ever ask people can you do stuff? You try to comply with the laws. You end up in a prison. Cell and you you skate around permits, but look at the risk of what Paul Howen, a billionaire, is putting on the line to do this to fly people and and you're going to do what fire that engine 10 times on the ground and then you're going to go put a man in it on national TV. Yeah. That's, yeah, we were talking earlier about people that that aren't scared of anything, people that just jump in in spite of, you know, their billion dollars. They're going, they're going to do it. It's part of the reason a lot of times why they even have that billion dollars to begin with is because it is because they don't they don't have the they don't have that same type of fear of risk that the most people have.

19:37 And I think that also a certain party has able to turn off your brain for a minute and just be like all my instincts that are yelling at me are just protective in survival instincts. I'm not, you know, we're not here to survive. We're here to live, you know, as they say in Wally, in the great, in the great movie Wally. But it's true, you know, and it's something that I, something that that comes to mind during your whole story so far, and I've lamented this on a couple of podcasts recently, is that Americans kind of forgot how to be Cowboys and in a lot of ways, and we've become tame and we've become comfortable. We've become confident in ourselves, overconfident in ourselves, I believe. And there's something the the combination of intelligence, perseverance and play for those three factors and that is so valuable.

20:23 And if you take out the play of it from that, you lose. So the play is absolutely necessary. And, and you know what? And that's why you have enormous success from people that do value creativity over anything. You know, I, I, I, I, I look at the entertainment world, which is the world that I, that I kind of most comfortable, I guess, talking about. But Taylor Sheridan has a blank checkbook with, with Paramount. Why? Because he takes creative risks that that are so good every time that they're no longer considered risks, right? He's balanced between that intelligence and the talent and the play and, and, and I think so few people have that, but it's that that's what's that's what's so much fun about hearing your your story is that this is an old American spirit as far as I'm concerned. And I think that's something that we need revived. And I think it's something.

21:11 We need we absolutely is nothing like it to be in the right stuff. Movie is what I'm doing. I mean, it's in 1947 here. It is not a 2004 and we've got a guy climbing in this thing we built in a few months and he's going to go get dropped from 55,000 feet on a brand new airplane using 2 jet engines bought off and off the freaking eBay from jet engine car guys. These jet engines, J-80 fives, afterburners, these weren't certified for anything. This is experimental plane by the way, completely. And and Bird always said by the way, said he when we get our paychecks, he'd be like, wow, we get paid for this man, this is so much fun. I should be paying you.

21:57 So back to the fun and the keeping that kid alive inside of you. It is so, so important to keep everybody just fired up about the mission. And he also said, gods, you know, you're doing real research when half the people on the program don't believe it will work. He said, now keep that in mind. He said. Most of you engineers will think it's the other guys stuff that won't work. Yeah. That's the way I felt about the engine. I'm like, well, but you got to remember they, I've got the guys that are going to fly this and said Dickens, you know, we always buy our engines, don't you? We don't make them. We bought our power plants from Pratt, Whitney, Holds, Royce or whoever. And you're like, OK, but they seriously were like, OK, the guy with the bicycle who rode it out on the flight line, Bert wanted me to bring it out.

22:47 He said that's got to be right ridden up and down the flight line and and of course the man, the tower called and said you boys need to get off the flight line with your rocket bike. The 1:30's you're running under are quite expensive. True story. But that's the fun factor. It was all about, you know, we didn't this thing is like 12,000 lbs of thrust by the way. They're coming out of the back of this and here I am with a little 200 LB thrust rocket bike. And that's as close as they're going to get to what we're doing. Until we fire a full size motor on the ground, people would take anything they can get to kind of fill their gap of like, what is this going to be like? So even a rocket bike was entertaining and, and I was like, it's the same propellant we're using, y'all. It's, it's yeah, so you're, you're right. I mean, it, it, you know, guys like Paul Allen and and even Elon, you know, they made their billion hood again. So if they lose it all, they're going to go do something else, right?

23:43 So they're at that point where they're willing to take the risk. And by the way, Elon did not be successful with the satellite launch or his rockets till I think it was 2008 or 9. Now we did ours in 2004, because it was Paul Allen. People started pouring investment into commercial space. That's where it kicked off. And was it? Wasn't Elon by himself? It was 2004, this spaceship. I bet. Yeah. Well, certainly there needs to be a trailblazer. Someone needs to give permission. There has to be 1 crazy one, one guy that says it's crazy enough that it just might work, that that is credible.

24:25 And every, there's always that one person that that can kind of change the tide. And it's, it's incredible what the power of one man with a little bit of influence can do. Or one woman of obviously, but one human with a, with a, with a little bit of influence can do. Because I think, and I've noticed this on a anecdotal level, especially as from a teacher, from a teacher's perspective, that and also as a father, I've noticed even with my three-year old and one year old, less than one year old. But when you show that there are high expectations because you know that they're capable of more, people very often rise up to the occasion. But if you set the bar low and make it easy to, to, to exceed standards, then people are very comfortable just settling for comfort. Accolade good enough and and I think that when you see someone a billionaire or someone grounded like in Microsoft, someone that is in a more you know that it's an industry that I think a lot of people find to be more tangible and more relevant and a little bit more institutional or or mainstream then and then he says something like let's go to space that could that that that that garners a lot of attention and it's a very gutsy thing to do because I could also and people have ruined their lives and ruined their reputations and. Oh, absolutely.

25:37 Many times, you know, the far to Rutan succeeding. It was the the thing people would say if you want to make a small fortune, start with a big one and get into this ice company. Nobody was making money and I'm telling you it's it was a it was a game changer moment and it was a big deal. We did it 2 times within two weeks. By the way, we had we had probably 20 or 30,000 or more out there more. Have you watching? You know, my friend Glenn, he was a patriot from the Army and he had a big American flag and he carried that out there and handed that to Mike Melville when he landed. And they can't. They had that flag out there. On top. Of that skip standing on it and that was all Glenn, man, that's the friend that died in an accident in 2007 after after I left, there was a nitrous accident.

26:27 But the point is your individuals can make a huge difference. And Glenn was very patriotic. And that was the American dream with the guy who flew it holding that flag. It said government Zero. And it's that's brutal, but it's still in what really made Elon successful. Was it just a rocket? No. How do you think it would take him to be the richest man on the planet had he not decided he needs to sell data? And it's really about satellites. It's about networks. That's what he knew. He was his customer, period. If he had waited on other people's rides and organically grew it, there would be a lot more competitors in that, in those lanes around him. Do you agree with that?

27:14 So he really, he really knew that he needed to be his own customer, his own payloads, and that was smart. Very. Smart Well, I think that I think a lot of people, especially people that are are comfortable bouncing around from business to business, often find the find ways to have businesses support themselves. It's a game. It's it's a literally game as old as you know, even agent businesses, you know, you have you, you get you. I mean it goes. Coal miners hi coal miners in the coal miners store and you have your own currency and. Yeah, that the, the, the assisted living homes where they also own the, you know, where they also own the companies that do the laundry, that they do laundry for the assisted living. They also own the companies that, that sell the, the, what do you call it, the PPE, the, the, the protective equipment. And, and then they also made own insurance company that insures them, you know, and then all of a sudden, you know, you have four or five different businesses that are all, they're all washing one another's hands and everything is supporting itself.

28:16 And, you know, obviously there's, I would say obviously some potential conflicts of interest and issues that could come up, but people get a lot done like that. People really build enormous empires that are that they just kind of support themselves and feed themselves. And it's, it's, it's incredible to see. You're right, you're right. You know, when I went to, I went and visited Elon's company, me and some friends. And it was the Falcon one that was a six foot diameter rocket. And he says this is the last one. He said if we don't make it, I am out of business, I'm out of money. So he was down to one launch that made her break them. And my friend in Huntsville works for the Army. He did the small cube, sat and Elon flew it. I think it was the second mission. He said it hit the beach, he kind of fell over and, and that Elon, you know how he is, he's kind of a little bit on spectrum.

29:08 He brought that little satellite in to John, my friend who was running the program. He said, oh, here's your satellite. It was a, it's like no sensitivity. And it 'cause he, I had lunch with him race like he's like, well, well, here's your satellite. At least we got that back and but Elon, you know when I was trying to sell my company in 2009, Orion, after I started, after I came back from this, my company took off. We were a propulsion company, Huntsville and we were all over the news. If I took you around, you'd see articles all over that wall. They've cut my company. Our company was great. We did some great things, Elon. The name of the company. Orion Propulsion. Orion propulsion if anyone wants to look that up just for. Yeah, but I sold it to Dianetics. They were a home grown defense company in Huntsville, pretty big.

29:58 They're now owned by by. Palantir. And that's it. Yeah, light us, light us. But The thing is, man, the I was ready to get out for a few reasons. We were about 50 people and I was getting far away from the hardware. And now I'm up there kissing babies and up in DC trying to save up these big programs with Boeing. And, and I'm just like, Oh my gosh, we're still testing rockets. And I don't even know what they're doing down there. Somebody's probably going to get hurt. And, and I, because I've been around, you got to remember in the 70s when I lost Glenn, Glenn and I had a company we're rolling and we're testing nitrous and Rutan calls me and said, hey, we've had an Apollo fire. We've lost Glenn and some others have been injured. And I'm on my way back up to to the scaled. But the point is everything's real, man. When you're doing stuff and people, people are being killed and it's like, I can't have that going on. It's keep you up at night, man.

30:58 It really if you're not in the trenches with your team because you're too busy doing Oh yes, 9100, trying to win the next contract, all that stuff. It's tough And and I talked to Elon's people about buying us by the way, And at the time, at the time it was Gwen Shotwell, who's now still running it. She's the president, she's running it. She she was there then she said we would be interested, especially with politics in Alabama. And I said because we can make hardware, we're doing it for Boeing. He said well, I'm. Going to ask how come to Elon that that never ended up in Huntsville. Well, he said. She said Elon was in a ugly divorce and it it really was not the best time to bring this into the mix. I ended up I ended up. Dealing with him.

31:41 Well, at the launch, one of his successful launches, I was out of Colorado Springs and I'm behind him outside, and he had his capsule there. Yeah, that's right, Our booster. And I said, hey, Eli, that's a great launch. He turned around. He, he looked at me and he's like, he's like, you know, he didn't really say anything. He's like, he kind of just blew through his mouth and like didn't know He's like whatever, you know, he, he, he was definitely I, I, I normally it would have been like that guy's a jerk, but I knew that's just comes with the territory, the Asperger's. Did you, did you read the by the did you read briefly the biography that what's his name wrote about him? The same guy that did Einstein and Steve Walter Isaacson? Sorry, the Isaacson biography on on Elon Musk. I have his book over there.

32:33 I like to. It's the one. It's one of his first books that was out. More like it looks like a Tony Stark kind of book. I know you're talking about the previous Elon book. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, I've worked with some of his principles on some projects, by the way, the first ten people. But I've, I, you know, a lot of us all were in amateur rocket magazines back in the day. We were out in Mojave just flying rockets for a week. And a lot of his engineers were literally arrogant people trying to do something fun on a weekend. And they were really doing some cool stuff. And I, in fact, I got a bunch of the magazines right over there. My steam rocket was featured in their 2 pages and the article was called Hot and Sticky see me and it was all about the steam rocket and the artwork they did.

33:22 They pointed it sideways and put wheels on it like it was a train is a cool article, but but you know it's it's it's so different. When I came off this program to come to Huntsville, they had me front page top of the Huntsville engineering put this thing in space. It's like, man, now people are starting to pay a little more attention. This is commercial and this is in Huntsville, you know, NASA town. It's like I want to really not it's not loud, but NASA was feeding me. You know, they're good, they're good partner. And and so it was this bitter sweet kind of deal, but they did. But the but the papers did a great job representing me what I had done. That's really nice.

34:06 I wanted, I wanted to touch on something you said earlier, which was that you felt that there are times where things kept you up at night, where there are real stakes in things that that in the work that you're doing. And there's two ways that I, there's a couple ways I think that people perceive breakthroughs, especially in science and technology. And that's consequentialism, which as Carmelo Anthony puts it in it from the NBA, there's no such thing as a bad shot that goes in as in as, as long as you get the results you're looking for, everything along the way, it justifies it. And I disagree personally. My personal approach is you can never really know what the outcome was or how you got there. The only thing you could really control is the morality of your behaviour along the way. And I think that those opposing philosophies are two philosophies that are really at the root of a lot of the conflict that's been going on, particularly in this part. And you know, in, in, in, in, in this, your part of the world in propulsion and in space science and in because there's no question that military touches on this too. And there's no question that weapons touch on this. You mentioned or in Soto weapons company. So you know, my so so my question is, how do you, how do you, how do you navigate that?

35:16 How do you feel about that? What's your perception on morals when and and ethics when it comes to the type of science that you're involved in? You know, we like, I work for a company in Maine and we have an air breathing technology that's like a just think a jet engine, but no moving parts for a upper stage. You know, the pro that I was running, the company who started it. He's always wanted to put small cube sats into orbit cheaply, small bread sized basket. And that is the that is his dream, eventually. But for what purpose? What would that? Accomplish because a lot of times when we have things going on in the world, you don't need a satellite in Leo. You just need it for a little while to see what's going on in the perimeter or in an area.

36:03 Could be for monsoon monitor, it could be for anything. A lot of things could be for the military that are getting a little local theater doing stuff, but they have to call the Air Force to get data. They have to go to the different agencies and by the time they get everything back, there's the there's the, let's just say the the components are the pieces have been moved on a chess board. The Army guy was telling you about the cube sack guy flown on Elon's rocket. It was him who came to me said, hey, we need a small rocket to launch within a 30 minute call up to put something in a low Earth orbit and I need to do it for under $1,000,000. And he said, Tim, can you do that? I said, I'll think about it.

36:46 And I did. And there is another nitrous liquid rocket I did for the Army, but now my friend was wanting to fly those size satellites. And then it's a really deep technology. So I'm working hypersonics and there's a lot of applications. One of them is kind of neat is you don't have to. When you're flying Mach 5 and you hit something, you don't need an explosive, you don't need a, you don't have a bunch of stuff in your bunker that goes boom because the air is in the sky and you're most of what you need. You're just burning a little fuel to go fast. It's so it's some cool physics and I'm enjoying it. But back to there's a lot of application for rockets.

37:27 Look at all the commercial stuff I did. You know, we got stuff hanging in Smithsonian. Now you got Branson who they built spaceship to same company and they brought me in for some problems. And in fact, Branson gives me a shout out in his book and I didn't know that, but I'm in there. Really gives me more credit than I wanted to be credited for. But nonetheless, I. Didn't take it now that you got it. Well, like say what is education all that drive home about but he knew better than anyone where what went where and and and da da da. So it's like a sharp 2 edged sword or something you know but it's OK, I don't care. It's more to me about you can judge me after I'm dead if I made a difference and then be between then and then I'm on a journey.

38:14 I'll do the best I can and if if I'm relevant, we'll let others, the historians decide what that looks like. That's sort of what I live by it. I don't try to hit a home run. I said we do that even my with my company when someone would say, hey, man, we really are the best. And I and I didn't want people to get too comfortable because accidents happen. I'd say, you know, we're pretty good, but we need to always stay on top of our game. And I do, I think we're very competitive. They got some, but you really do need to balance it because because I'm, you know, hearing him talking to Rutan, who used to dog NASA and everyone say now we're doing this cheap. And then we've got people we're burying out here because we allowed them to go out there and stand next to a tank while we let nitrous come out.

38:59 We weren't burning anything, but it still blew up. So we don't need people out there unnecessarily until we understand things. So those experiences I take back to my company. So you say what keeps you up is, is thinking, I know nitrous oxide. I'm I'm a I've been a subject matter expert on it for a wind towel for hypersonics over a few years ago. But they have a call you in something blows up and you're not even, you don't even have a flame out there and and what happened? And then you got burnt saying we're going to share everything with you, keep you stay off your bikes and trucks, keep your daughter off her rocket bike. Whoever tells you keep your daughter off a rocket bike. But but he knew that we like to have fun.

39:40 But he was, it was a wake up call, man. It's like he says, we're going to share everything with you, you know, and within a few days, I'm at a funeral with Glenn and Glenn's mom. And he's there, you know, and, and she's saying, Hey, did they protect my son Tim? Because I'm having to sign something, say I'm not going to sue him. And I'm like, I've been working in Huntsville for three years on my own company. I don't know, but I talked to Glenn weekly and I think he was pretty smart. So I didn't even know the details. Well, then ten days later, Northrop closes on a purchase of them. Exactly. So I probably would have dug in a little deeper, but I didn't know. But she says, should I sign this, they're going to pay for everything to come home. I think it was like $30,000.

40:26 You know, the next time she asked me to come over, I want you to look through Glenn stuff. You know, there's this rocket go Kart and I just didn't, I didn't really want, I didn't want, I didn't want to take this stuff, man. It was not. But the point is this is your family, man. So you you say, does it keep me up at night? Well, when you learn something that maybe you're not as smart as you think, you're lucky that you didn't get. You made it through a few rocket flights on your bike. Yeah. And you realize, boys, we need that data from Northrop now. And I'm thinking Northrop is never going to share that with me because there's too much liability, even though Rutan says we're going to share it all with you. I did get a letter that said here's some rules, but they shared it with all the public. So the point is, big business, you know this, They're not going to write a handbook to tell you how to go burn 20,000 LB rocket motors with nitrous at high pressure. People that make nitrous are not going to do that. They're not going to go say, with your 6 inch pipe feeding your ��80,000 thrust motor, Mr.

41:31 Virgin, you don't you. Here are some things you got to watch out for the people that make it. No rules for a specific rate of which it's made. But to use it at high flow rates, hundreds of pounds a second, it's not. There's not been a book written on this stuff. So right, unless you go do a lot of data and testing to failure. By the way, if you don't test stuff till failure, you don't know where the edges are. You might. What is? What is testing till failure? There's one of my favorite Calvin and Hobbes comics. I don't know if you know, if you're familiar, I was when they're crossing a bridge that says weight limit, you know, say 15 tons and Calvin goes, dad, how do they know the how do they know the weight limit?

42:15 And his dad says they keep on driving heavier and heavier trucks across it until the bridge collapses. And then they and then they weigh the last truck and then they rebuild it and set the limit. Yeah, with a sample size of 1 and then the next one that breaks, well, that's two data points. Right, So what does testing to failure mean from a scientific perspective? Well, it, it means that it means that you better understand, like for instance, if you have water hammer when you slam a valve, if you want to know what the adiabatic heating is and the compressive heating. If you want to know, for instance, if you if you if you take Teflon and one of these, I want to show you something right here which is relevant. This, this valve right here.

43:02 Yeah. This valve is made by a company called Murata. They've been around since the by the 40s. They fly on Elon's rockets. 1/3 of all the valves are made by Murata on Elon's rockets. Do you see how this valves kind of split open? Yeah, sure. This was a nitrous oxide accident. No valve. Was rated for 3000 PSI. The nitrous was at about 500 PSI. Do you see that? You see that burn marks? OK, Would this happen? This happened. I sent this to Rutan after I was back in Huntsville and I sent to Glenn. I said I don't know the root cause of this, but this is a lot of energy. And by the way, this was not liquid nitrous in here, it was gas.

43:46 So it was low density, not a lot of mass. Well, as it turned out, this is Teflon wire right here, Teflon coated wire. And guess what, if this if this, if this 24 volts gets on here and it did on the ground, it'll short it out and start heating it like a like a heating element on a blow dryer. Guess what happens when Teflon gets to about 600��? It creates something called fluorine. Fluorine is the most brutal oxidizer on the planet. It'll eat anything. It'll auto ignite anything. If you breathe a little bit of it, it will give you a heart attack. Really. Yes, Sir. But what I'm saying is that little fluorine in there and a little bit of a leak of nitrous, they got together and they created a bomb in this little cover.

44:32 There was a connector here. In this state blew. Apart because of something silly but it's still this is what I'm saying. You better understand everything because nitrous is a mono propellant. That means it can make a lot of energy without any fuel. It's the heat of formation, the stuff it took to bond it together is a lot of energy and you get your back when you break the bonds and you break the bonds is when you do it with a catalyst. You can use a, you could use a catalyst like acetone, a little bit of heat. You lower that activation energy, the more catalyst is that's surrounding it. But it's, it's a beast.

45:13 So you have to treat it. You have to. You don't just say they use it at the dentist office all the time. It's got to be OK. Our kids, they've also lost people all operating tables, whether you know it or not, from a hiccup on a table where they're using nitrous, right? Something set off the nitrous and they had a little micro explosion that that inflicted other damage. So you could go do your homework on that and you'll think, whoa, I didn't know that. It's one is the point is we're dealing we're we're writing the book on ways to get to space cheaply. And, and one thing that Bert didn't like about everybody else's solution is they were going to have to have cryogenic super cold oxidizers. I mean -300 -, 270�� F.

46:04 These composites are, they never worked with anything that cold. So they didn't want. Bert loved the idea of room temperature or liquid nitrous. So I hate to digress, but this is, this is the kind of knowledge that keeps you up at night because I still work with this, with this liquid a lot. Nitrous right? In, in, in, in programs I was on, they were even violating all the MSDS and everything. They were wanting more energy into the working fluid. And when you get more energy in, you can break the bonds. So people would say, well, it'll probably be OK, won't it? And I said we are beyond the bounds of my knowledge because I want to follow the rules unless we create a new data set and we can create it at a small scale, but without those, without doing a scientific statistical analysis for each experiment.

46:56 Not going to happen anymore. I'm not comfortable, so when people want to make me a safety officer on something that's dangerous, I'm like, I am not going to be the rubber stamp guy. Yeah, yeah. I hear you. It's a huge, it's a huge way. It's a huge, it's a huge way to bear and it's a massive responsibility. Well, people are like, well, you're, you're just trying to impede progress. I said, don't tell that to the guy who straddles a a tank, a nitrous and rides it down the road at 60 miles an hour. Don't tell that to the guy that's a rocket trunk with 3000 lbs of thrust. Don't tell me that I don't want to have progress right. They they don't hold water with me. I'm totally with. I'm totally with you, man. I think there's a fine line and I think that anyone that says that is kind of just trying to make you feel bad about it and manipulate into doing something you don't feel like doing. And that's that's that's one O 1 as far as I'm. Concerned pull up a picture of my friend Glenn, say hey, here's a guy just watching the tank, little valve open up and, and it's and it blows up and, and three seconds, 3 seconds, yeah, 10,000 lbs of nitrous.

47:58 Yeah, crazy. Crazy. Oh my gosh, I can't imagine crazy. I wanted to ask you because you did some homework about this and I and I would love to let you to let you off the leash with this is a little bit of the history of this of this field because I really wanted to talk about space a little bit too. And I think we'll get to space through this. But I do want to make sure that we hit this because I am really interested in the history and I'm curious what you dug up and, and I would love to, I'd love to learn a little bit more about that. OK, so we talked about paths to to our success as a nation. I can talk about the American history. So you want to go back to maybe some of the the against the odd situations that that our space program rocket program started and how we almost didn't get there. We're almost probably defeated because 1 crazy person was the self-taught guy was actually got us away from rocket motors that were blowing up all of our yeah, that was a guy named Jack Parsons.

49:05 He was a self-taught chemist. He made special effects for Disney. Not yeah, Disney down in the L not Disney. But at the time it was Hollywood down to down in, you know, down in Hollywood. And his name was Jack Parsons and, and he was really one of the founders, original founders of the JPL Jet Propulsion Research Lab, Pasadena. He, he was also part of the American Rocket Society, which was a amateur group fighting rocket motors down there in the Aurora Canyon out there right next to where JPL is today is a Canyon where water would flood out through there. So you'll see pictures.

49:47 This is way before, this is back when Robert Goddard was in that same era. You know, Robert Goddard was the American liquid rocket guy who got the first liquid rockets to high altitude. That was Americans when the Germans came about, you know, and they later ended up in Alabama eventually. Yes, Sir. Which year, what year, around what time period is this? OK, well, the Jack Parson stuff was happening. Early 19. Oh, it's, it was in the, IT was in 1930s and 40s. OK. This is getting to War Two. You got to remember Robert Goddard was, you know, he goes back to the turn of the century a little after, you know, doing liquid rockets.

50:28 But he didn't, he was not a team player. So he only did stuff with Guggenheim grants and a few people. And he moved slow and was methodical. So he was not going to be the guy like Elon to take us into the the big wave of space exploration. He was a tinkerer and a very smart man. Doctor Goddard. I've read all of his papers. I'm in my library. But but the point is military started during War Two there they needed some rocket motors to help airplanes take off because they had a load of they had tanks on them, they had all sort of stuff. So they say, hey, you're a rocket guy, we need you to build solid rocket motors. And that was not his wheelhouse. His his wheelhouse was gasoline engines with liquid oxygen. That's mostly what he flew.

51:15 So the point is he was relevant in history, by the way, because when the Germans, we finally caught the Germans up to World War 2 and they were doing V twos, they said, what did you learn to build rockets? They said from your doctor Goddard and his paper. Yes, Sir. Yes, Sir, the papers. The Germans got their signs from from from. Americans. Yes. Where did you learn to build liquid rockets? They said from your doctor Goddard. We read his papers truthfully. So like a lot of history, people are more respected by our peers elsewhere. I have a friend who's a microbiologist. He's wrote 400 papers. The Russians just exalt him and gave him a PhD honorary and he's had lunch with him yesterday, and that's another story.

52:04 It's another guy you ought to have on here. He's 84. He's brilliant, but he'll tell you origins of life in the papers and the he's done well. He's, he's going to be fascinating because he's done a lot of deep dives in Antarctica with, with former moonwalkers and he. There's been. Documentaries with Doctor Hoover and. That's his name, Doctor Hoover. Richard Hoover, he's got a he's got a Wikipedia out there and we had a four hour lunch yesterday and I had an enjoyable time and he is going to tell you how he's got an experiment that Elon's going to fly to prove what kind of life is on Mars because there's certain kinds of proteins that we do not want to bring back to this planet.

52:48 So there are nurse yes Sir. So he wants to, when they go for the early flight, he's, we've got some little probes. In fact, he wants him and I to go over to, to Turkey and present a paper on this in a few months. And I'm more of the build, build it. I am the prototype guy. And he's the genius who's worked with Doctor von Braun and all the Germans and, and beyond credible. He's got he's got some stories too, about some UFO stuff that happened when he was in Capcom. Really. Yes, Sir. During Skylab, the the X-ray telescope was his project. He was the principal engineer. So he trained Owen Garrett how to use those instruments that he was like at it was like he was down in Houston owned own console when they were doing some things and there were some bogeys that he said, we've got bogeys and they say come again there.

53:42 And now he's not talking to Hoover. He's talking to the the other guys. Hoover was doing the X-ray, but still this was more about out the window. And let's just say there's a story there and some of these pictures disappeared. But they did make it into a book that Hoover brought and he said these were grabbed by somebody in the media quick enough. But but no, he said that, He said after a few minutes, they said that. He said, I, there's, there's several bogies and then, you know, they're like, and then they came back and said Norad's on it. Said we we copy Norad's tracking, is what they said. What does that mean? NORAD is a North American.

54:23 If anybody's trying to attack us, that's our nuclear. Wow, wow. Our our most advanced defensive system or program. Yeah, that's. Right. Wow. Wow. But anyway, we're going. To we're going to get mixed in with you. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but he is not a conspiracy guy and he told me two or three stories that didn't add up that he'll he's willing to share now and he's got pictures. Wow. Yeah, he's a good one. So I would love to talk to him. Yeah, so back to the early days of rockets. Well, Doctor Goddard was making black powder rockets and they kept blowing up. You can't have these solid rockets lighting and then a lot of them blowing up.

55:06 So there's these guys that did a lot of pyrotechniques down in Hollywood and they were the guys that came together and said, yeah, we'll, we'll build those solid rocket motors. And they so they were some really kind of interesting people and they started doing that for the military and they were the guys who started Aerojet. There were several people, but the company Aerojet was formed by self-taught chemist who built special facts for Hollywood. He's the guy who got all into the occult and was having had a home. His Wikipedia page. What's that about? Oh my gosh. Well, he's basically, he was a, he was a very creative guy and he was a big empathizer with the communist movement.

55:53 And he had been reading about this guy named Aleister Crowley over in England over maybe Scotland. Anyways, he really respected some of what he's doing, but he wanted to tap into the the ether and the knowledge that there was promised through the techniques that the occultist was using the South. So he was, he ended up coming up with the formula to replace black powder. And that formula was based on fertilizer. It was based on asphalt, it was based on mineral oil or the main ingredients. So you remember I talked about asphalt? Yeah, sure. I read a paper from the 50s from the gausset of the work he did and it had the formula. And that's when I saw that I said I think asphalt might be the fuel for me.

56:42 It came from that that guy. And that's why I asked my wife. I said what is the energy in a, in a gram of this and in terms of BTU. But the point is I didn't really know all this history at that point. By the way, I'm just sending an old book from the called Jet Propulsion History. So here he is now, the Nike missiles that protected us during the Cuban Missile Crisis, A lot of those had this propellant at them and sometime when it would get really hot, that would drip out of the nozzles, this asphalt. So that's a. This is, this is. You don't want us. Tripping across from the sky do. You. Yeah, well, I'm just saying it took a bandit a a radical, a self-taught guy to come up with what solved that problem.

57:29 Goddess reliable rocket motors. The problem with the black powder is it would crack the grains would crack. You couldn't pack them tight enough, but when you turn it to that's fault, there's plasticizers and like I talked about. So they ended up getting us through probably 20 years of rocketry because of that guy who ended up getting fired eventually and and ended up going back in the business and he end up blowing himself up accidentally making fireworks. They got that. They shot him down, pulled his clearances. And then they said you can't be working. You've had too much collaboration with Satanist over the top Satanist in the country. It's the same guy that that that Osborne Ozzy spoke sung about it.

58:14 One of his songs that a song called Mr. Crowley, you know, talked about his black magic and how you went down a bad path. He's basically saying, you know, you're no good. You have to listen to it. It's kind of an eerie song, but. But it was a popular one. But So what happened is he had a big house and he got L Ron Hubbard moved in with them. It was renting A renting a place next to him. Yeah, Yeah. L Ron Hubbard. L Ron Hubbard is the founder of Sociology, Scientology. Scientology. I'm so sorry, Scientology. Yeah, and the thing about it is the first wife of Jack Parsons ended ended up kind of cheating on him with that guy.

59:00 And then he ended up Jack Parsons end up marrying her sister, her younger sister. What she moved in with him when she was 15 with both him and his ex-wife. She had now was hanging out with Hubbard and and she was 15. At 17 they got married. This Jack Parsons married this girl, her sister she was brought her dad abused her. It's all out there on the Internet. This is this is there's a lot of and she and heard her people were also practices of the black magic her family. So it was kind of what drew her, I think to him somehow. They used to have a lot of meetings there in Pasadena. There was a place where these communists and occultists would meet occasionally and do whatever they do.

59:46 It's out there. I mean, I can send it to you later, but I've done a lot of, you know, this occulting stuff, you know, it comes out, we know people seek special gifts to be artists, to be great as a musician. They'll publicly sometimes even allude to it, you know, And so they'll do their thing for some power and knowledge to be good at something. So on one side there's they seek the dark forces over here. You've got people that are getting dreams at night and like Tussla, Tussla had these dreams and visions and that's where we come up with the AC. That's where he came up with a lot of his ideas.

1:00:27 So there was definitely, you know, there's a book he, he was reading in one of his famous pictures and, and I, and I had that book. In fact, I, I had earlier I'd try to make a copy of what that's a little bit of the details my printer. But the point is, about 3 chapters in that book, instead of it becoming the nature of light and telling us, you know, the principles of what he thought were light was made-up, they want you to start going in a deep state of where you let your mind be cleared and tap into the knowledge and the ether. And that's where Rock On said no, I'm not going to get into all that. Yeah. But the point is, so he was seeking this and that was his favorite book, this famous book. And this famous photo of him was fart with sparks all around him sitting in a chair.

1:01:16 That book, that book is, and you can look it up. Just say, you know, famous book Tesla's reading. And when he was doing that famous shot. But it was had to do with the nature of light, but also had to do with a lot of free information to be great at something. But that need in other words. Well, I'm saying you're seeking something. You're seeking right right to be, to receive a breakthrough for whatever it is you're you're focused on. You're looking for answers without really doing the hard work. Yeah. So this actually kind of gets me to one of the points we were talking about earlier, which is play and science.

1:01:57 And there's a dark side of it. There's a dark side of play. There's a dark side of ways that you can kind of break eggs or ways that you wander into there. There's always a line and that line is very distinct. And it doesn't mean that there's not knowledge on the other side of that line, but there's always a price that you pay, right? There's just like the price you paid to, to to have this newfound understanding of the value of safety, for example, and the stand, the value of the rubber stamp is something you had to go through a personal tragedy to, to experience. Yeah, it feels like with a lot of this stuff, with UFOs, occult stuff, a lot of, and even if a lot of this is backed by science, people have such a strong initial vehement reaction to this.

1:02:44 And I feel like some of it is founded because I think there's some of it that really is dark stuff that I think people or society as as a whole have understanding. This is not something we want to go near. And then there's the stuff that, hey, like this UFO thing could be really interesting. There's a lot of evidence, There's a lot of documentation. There's a lot of people that have nothing to gain and everything to lose by talking about it, except, you know, before it's they seem to be wanting to search. They're not trying to search for something dark. They're trying to understand reality. And this this shatters their sense of reality. And so the question, you know, so, So what, what, what whenever, whenever ends up happening is someone will say, well, how does that happen?

1:03:27 And the answer is, I don't know. But the. Answer is sometimes you need LSD to help you get there, sometimes you need something to not block your conscious, sometimes you need to go down a path that if you can't overdo it, you might end up with bigger problems in your life. That's the that's the fear too, right? That's the line between playing and play in danger right there. But I mean, you have guys like Epstein that that have been very, very involved in a cult and science that are very involved in an anti gravity and genetics and all this kind of crazy stuff. And, and the cult and, and I, I can't imagine that these are that they're completely divorced from one another and that they're just two different segments that he just happens to be interested in.

1:04:10 I'm sure that there's some kind of relationship between the two that that that led 1 into the next. It seems to be there is a common factor. You know, they want to call it science, but it's like dark matter. It's it's, it's a placeholder. It's not a description of, of, of a structure of any matter that we've ever replicated. We've never created in a lab. You know, it's like matter and antimatter and, and, you know, opposite side, same coin. Is it maybe they, they, the point is that that people tinker with stuff. And the thing about tinkering with, with advanced science, you got to remember we barely have an image of even an electron, by the way, we, we, we, we theorize.

1:04:54 This is why they put physics in philosophy. By the way, if you ever want to know what physics, yes, it is. If you go to college and you take physics, it's in the philosophy department. I didn't know that. Yeah, because historically it's been all about what you think's going to happen in the science and the you apply. I mean, you're trying to stitch together, but it has to do everything with the formation of the universe all the way down to the particles that that we interact with. It's all of it. But at the same time, you bring math in as you find more information and data and you try to stitch together theories. But it's really those two are in the, in this philosophy department. And, and the point is we, we, we, we, we play with a lot of things that we can't see. We do it all the time.

1:05:39 I mean that, you know, go in a hospital, a lot of devices operate well, it's an MRI or whatever. They know the behavior of different particles and they know how to spin them and and they know how to get certain effects and they know how to get, you know, just to visualize it really good and see it with detail enough to know, well, that's cancer. That's something else. And but a lot of it, if people nowadays can buy a lot of surplus stuff, for instance, parts from MRI's high voltage power supplies, they can get those and they can take them home and they can do discharge, They can do discharge voltages. That could be 2 and 3,000,000 volts. They can make big Tesla calls. They can create a lot of ionizing radiation. By the way.

1:06:25 Do they have a detector? Probably not, because the pulse is so short you probably would never pick it up on cheap equipment. I'm talking about a little handheld dosometer. That's probably not going to do it. But I'm saying all this because there are physics that we don't just because you, you know, a little bit and you got a little bit of money, you could really get yourself in trouble. I have a friend who died of brain cancer. He was a, he was a genius, very much about 300 patents. His name is Larry Fullerton right here in town. And I didn't know he passed away, but I saw a bunch of cool books and some Transformers, big capacitors, powerful capacitors on Facebook and I said who, who would have these? So I went, I knew the guy and he said well, the family passed away, the stuff he didn't want.

1:07:12 So I ended up with a lot of his library and they were particle physics, they were magnetic fields. It was a lot of obscure stuff, a lot of notes. He signed every book and I have part of that here, most of it. And I have his, I have his stuff. I'm like, who would have a freaking capacitor? 4000 volts or 30,000 volts that has 600 kilojoules of purple? Larry was had programmable magnet company, but Larry that brain cancer and by the way, and some of the Larry stuff. I have a nice lab X-ray machine from from a laboratory and he had plates, old photograph plates. So Larry was definitely in some of these books of his.

1:07:52 They tell you how to do photography type with the high frequency particles. How did and what what's it take them with with gamma, gamma, alpha, beta, all the stuff that you can't see. The point is, he was playing with all that. Right. What implications does that? Does that mean for For what it? Means is Larry. Larry was a, he's like, you know, some people that I've interacted with through Amy, Amy, you know, Etheridge Eskridge, Sorry, but you know, I, I came on her board and I got to meet a lot of people that she was doing projects with. Everybody thinks Amy's got to be the scientist. Amy is the business person who has a very good accolade for what people are doing in the businesses and. She she wasn't, she was more of a business. Woman, she had, she had, she had a advanced degrees, but she didn't get a PhD in physics like her daddy. And her daddy was a genius, Richard, and I know him. I met him before I knew her through my dad who's a physicist.

1:08:55 He was doing advanced plasma physics and he met saw papers of Mr. Etheridge and he said, Tim, you got to meet this guy. He's not like other people. He's very applied. I don't waste your time much. I was running my business at the time and my dad was building me high voltage sparkers for Bob Bigelow for the space to light it. And he wouldn't talk to Richard about measuring high voltage plasma without affecting the power out. How do you how do you measure the power without, you know, it's like, you know, looking at a particle and not affecting the the outcome. But he said Richard is a genius. He said tell him you got to meet him. So went out there and he was working for Doctor Cole in the Advanced Propulsion group. They were actually trying to get antimatter in a container and it was very controversial.

1:09:43 What's antimatter? Well, it's the well, there's matter than they think. There's the the antiparticles for different kinds of matter, but it was a very controversial thing where they thought it could create, some people thought you'd end up with a black hole and you could suck the local suck us up locally in a black hole. There were, you can look it up about the work that Marshall was looking at, but there were a lot of people scared to death and in the world about them doing that. They they shut that down, but they were doing the Ning Li experiment with the magnets that she was the one who formulated that she could reduce gravity by spending this super magnet and she can reduce gravity by 3%.

1:10:24 And they ended up building copies of that. Richard Amy's dad and a guy named Glenn Robertson, he's a good friend of mine. He's still doing magnets today. He's retired. These guys are still very busy doing research on their own. Yeah, no, they never stopped. They're going to die doing research. They haven't stopped and they'll do it on their budgets are sometimes people will come and fund them. And that's a real problem because people that are genius that worked some very serious programs, a lot of those people usually get swept up by the Mick or military military industrial complex. And they have a lot of fun with some careers playing with stuff they could only dream of. But these guys are NASAM. So they're more commercial, but they're still doing some really on the edge stuff and they can't. But but The thing is, Amy was willing to take their brains and do some real way out physics and commercialize it and give it to the world.

1:11:21 What you do, what we're trying to accomplish. Well, that was the the that was an antenna system that he developed using some bismuth and some other materials that would have had some unusual effects about. There were there were there were mass change effects with this device, let's say. Yeah, just imagine you having a type of antenna that you could point to, let's say the moon and you're you're weighing this thing, by the way, it's battery powered. You're weighing it and you're seeing mass changes when you point to different. Bodies mass changes. Weight. Of a change in gravity around that mass.

1:12:02 There's a change happening local that they could be up to 3 and 4%. And with. Don't it, don't ask me the physics, I can just tell you it gets pretty heavy duty has to do with the materials meta materials has to do with spin, spin of of of particles and. But I'm I'm, I'm sorry, I'm just, I'm, I'm trying to understand what the consequences of what it means. No, I'm saying. Less gravity. What does that mean? That mean you can jump higher. That mean well, it could mean a lot of things. You know, some people reduce gravity local with eye on wind. OK, that's hot voltage plasma and it's accelerating One Direction and it's air, it's moving air, it's plasma, it's turning it the nitrogen into, you know, to to to hot, hot gas glowing light glowing, you know, plot and they're moving it to from like, you know, electrode to an anode or what, or vice versa. But that mean that is an example of people quote. It looks like mass is changing if you're if you're measuring thrust.

1:13:05 So what I'm just saying is there were a lot of interesting claims that her dad spent a lot of time on in this area. He didn't do it to fool himself. I can assure you he don't. He's not like, hey, in this cool, let me fake you. He's not, he's a scientist. He's not a man of words. He didn't speak a lot. He's just very, very into it. And so is Tony. Tony's the same way now. He'll be speaking at AUAP conference in Canada. Tony, about this. We Tony Robertson, Glenn Robertson Tony, He's he's presenting up at Canada in a few months. It'd be a UAP conference.

1:13:46 He's speaking about this project. He and I've been working together. I'm I'm more of a force multiplier when it comes to acquisition of various hardware to do testing, actually loan stuff. I find unique stuff and I I make sure he's got what he needs to do the work. Very cool and I don't. Charge or it's just purely I hope I hope we can redo. It's a it's an experiment that Pod Lekov did. If you look that guy up, he was. Who? Bob Who? Pod Pi think it's POD pod Lekov. Just look up Gravity, our pulse gravity experiment with the pod Lekov.

1:14:29 OK, I'll take a look into that. Yeah, give me a lot of rabbit holes. Wired article written by a guy named Platt who writes who wrote for Wired and others. He wrote about it. He went and visited the guy. The problem is Glenn has figured out some things that weren't probably shared properly. And he is very smart. He'd make superconductor magnets at home, very large ones. And he's very, he knows what he's doing and he's got several patents, but he is so committed to, to exploring these lanes. We're talking, you know, pulse power, the ability to, you know, to to to create a little gravity wave and and, you know, maybe dent something or do something unique.

1:15:12 So, so we'll see you know, but when you're working on that would be that. Could be used as an as a weapon I don't be using. You know, somebody could probably use that as a weapon, you know, but that's not his interest. He's he's interested in propulsion to get kind of get off the planet and do some really make some breakthroughs. The problem here is these are all so closely tied together. Weapon pulse, pulse, something one way, something moves the opposite direction. It's all depend on how you use it, what's what, what's stationary, and what's moving. And. It's getting in the wrong lanes and this is the problem.

1:15:53 You know, you're, you're smart guys like that. People can nowadays do some amazing stuff with what they can find on eBay and networking and they're doing some crazy physics at their homes, man. And I think in the government, they know that these folks are are probably skating around some interesting stuff and they're keeping an eye on it, I'm sure. Because. You know, if you go after a patent, as you know, you know, you do medical devices and things. If you get in the wrong lane, you know, they won't give you a patent on some stuff that's pretty too close to. Yeah, that's the law, man. They're not going to, they're not going to let you get in those lanes. And I think, plus, I think they're crazy people who think you're hiding something.

1:16:36 And they're out there, too. You know, some of the people that have killed famous people, they weren't, they were willing to be famous to take it out. Someone who looked like they were doing something amazing. There's just always reasons, people, you know? Bigelow has seen all flavors of those people. Hey, can you can you tell me who Robert Bigelow is? Was a guy when he was a kid, when he was a kid, his parents both had experience with a UFO in the desert and it was very close and, and they talked about it. And Bob I think later saw something too. And he said, someday I'm going to be rich enough to go out to the stars and I'm going to figure out how to do it. And he couldn't make his money.

1:17:19 He had to get in the business of budget suites, a hotel, to make enough money to do space. So he became a billionaire. And and I met Bob at some conferences, space conferences. What was he like? Bob Bigelow is. Like he's. Still, he's an impatient man. He wants, if you watch him, if you, if you listen to why he got out of the sold skinwalker, if you ever watch that, good, because he'd say we had, you know, the best equipment, observing phenomena. And we we, it just kept changing. He says, you know, I'm not a patient man. He said nothing made sense. He said, you know, we tried this. We try to reproduce the same experiment.

1:17:59 By the way, I don't buy these, but a patient man, he spent his entire life with one goal, one singular goal. Yeah, but he really believed we wrap enough science equipment and the right team around it. You're going to get to the bottom of it and you're going to see how you can exploit this for your own use. Maybe there's something here. That's what you do. You look for outliers and physics and say I'm going to go study that because it doesn't add up. I don't know the answer, but we're going to do much testing, try to reproduce it like like a lightning bolts with rocks moving and all that stuff where they prove some of that stuff. Why? Why that happens. But these are the outliers where Bob wanted to know and right now what's Skinwalker? They're out there poking the bear. They don't really know what the poking they're they're getting results. They're getting stuff from the battle. Got cattle at wrestling.

1:18:48 You got to, they're cut up with a laser and they're, you know, it's just bananas, man. And they're calling themselves scientists. I know Travis Taylor, he is a scientist. I was on the Rocket Sea Redneck TV show with him by the way, for the. Is he the gentleman that bought that bought the? No, that's Brandon Frugal. Oh yes, I just heard him on Real. Estate. Real estate guy. I just heard four hours. AGO Travis Travis Taylor has three PhDs. He's from Huntsville. He worked for the Army, some DC held a lot of clearances. He's a bright man, but I'm telling you, they they are getting their minds blown out there. The other day Travis said, I think I know why we're all having horrible nightmares since we started doing the ranch. He's I used to never have dreams. He said they're the worst nightmares. We always have them at the ranch. He's saying this on on on podcast or something. He said, well, there's a lot of X-ray. I'm not X-ray.

1:19:42 There's a lot of microwave, high, high-powered microwave energy in that, in that down in that area, for whatever reason, we don't know where it's coming from, he said. But it messes with you. So they're in a soup of a lot of broad spectrum radiation and it's, it's bananas. You know, he got hit with gamma ray while he was down there, came out of a well with his leg, with his hand, his head. He had he got cancer. He showed me the UA Peacock and he said that I had to get this cut off. And I said what do you think's going on? And he said he said I don't know, but my dosometer went off. I was wearing and it showed gamma and he said I started slamming beers to get get my system flushed.

1:20:24 He said he was peeing, peeing black the next day at the hospital and it was real. You know, people think all this stuff is purely staged. It's it is scripted TV to a degree. There is a a flow that somebody's managing and they're stitching it together. But I'm not saying it's lies. It's let's launch a rocket and see what happens. OK. You're watching it bounce off something. Yeah, that stuff. So, so Bob, Bob eventually, and by the way, I spoke to, I'm not going to call his name, but a guy who did IT with Bob for many years at home and elsewhere, probably too much, but he was a good guy. We talked and it's I say he said, I said, wait, what can you tell me about the ranch man? You remember I'm a contractor building rocket motors for Bigelow for his space station Orion. And I'm the I'm the chief engineer. He said, you step down as president, you're going to do this or I'm not giving you the $4.8 million contract. I said absolutely going to do it. So I got to talk to his guards.

1:21:26 A lot of them were special forces out of the military. I mean, there's guards everywhere out there, by the way, right? Barbed wire fields. And they would tell me, I said, you've been out of the ranch. They said, yeah, I spent two months. I hate it out there. Well, what? Well, it's a lot of boring, but a lot of crazy. What? It's crazy. He said, well, we might go to the grocery store. We got groceries everywhere. And we come in, we set them down walking next room, they're all over the floor, cabinets are open, just stuff, stuff like that. So Bob says Poulter got stuff. You remember him talking about that? He said. I heard him follow my. Wife home followed me home and, and, and by the way, there was a guy, there was a guy Amy brought to me to Huntsville I met. Well, he was APK. He's a psychokinesis guy and he trained.

1:22:07 He spent time up at the Monroe Institute. Yes. Sir, he sure did. And he and he had skills and and I'm like, OK, well, she was the other she was she was with another couple of people that I won't mention the name because in her text she told me one of them was compromised by she was told that by someone, someone in the military she was working with. But the but the point is he had pictures that had video on his camera looking at a screen like you are screen and it was a UFO going over some trees. There was a door looked like, like a freaking this flying over and over. I said what is this? He said. He said this is phenomenal. I said where is this?

1:22:48 He said this was from the camera of some of the video cameras at Skinwalker. Yeah. What do you where did you get these? He said. They paid me to come out and use my skills. This is when Bob owned it. Yeah, use my skills for a couple, three weeks to see what he could discern from this chaos. So now we're in a now we're in poltergeist world, OK. I'm trying to be with you. I'm saying we're, we're throwing all the everything at it. What? Could it be it doesn't make any sense? It doesn't make any sense because again, you're talking about sober minded people. You're talking about people. And I mean, you hear the guy, especially the gentleman that that that since bought it from Bigelow.

1:23:28 That guy seems to be an extremely sober minded guy. Definitely. No, I mean, and and he's like, there are things that are going on that I just don't know. And like, and that is someone that I believe way more than someone that is definitively yes or no. Like I'll tell you what this is or I'll tell you that doesn't exist because you can't explain it. Like he's like, I don't know, it's freaking me out. We're trying to figure it out. We've devoted millions of dollars to figure it out and it just we, we can't, we have no idea exactly. So so I, you know, we're a poacher. We're a poacher guy. Poltergeist over here, right? I. Was big along thought that's his language not mine right. You know he said that now coming from him that's incredibly unusual because he's all about the science right.

1:24:10 Yeah, he owned it before Brandon and he it is and he so and he said it really affected his wife. You remember he said that it the way it would interact with her. So it really did sound like the movie like a poltergeist still you know it's just so him there was the hitchhiker effect and now you're thinking what is that follows you home. Travis Taylor told me that a couple years ago at a conference he said if you're you know this stuff will go home with you and I said what are you talking about this phenomena. I said what? And I'm thinking you are three pH DS and we're talking about a phenomena that's going up with you and it's going to mess with you. It's cut his car off out there, brand new car when he was out there getting his mouth way out. That's what he told me and it cranked back up and it happened a couple times.

1:24:56 And he said that's the kind of stuff that happens. He said it, we all have it happened. He said anyone who goes out there, these these these things affect you when you leave, he said. I want to ask. I've been I've been wanting to ask this for a while because it keeps on coming up. This phenomenon generally seem to happen around military bases or large experimental bases in general, right? Like you want to go to UFO you want. If anyone, if anyone wants to see a UFO really badly, they know where to go. You go to Nevada, you go to Huntsville, you go to you go to certain parts of Florida. There are parts in the country that people today that you can reliably go on a on a I'm sure a fairly regular basis and come across something that probably at this point is probably man made, right? I imagine.

1:25:45 I think all of it, yeah. And so, so, So what do you think the story is? Do you think this is all weapons? Do you think there was inspiration for weapons? And we've been replicating it. That's why, like I had to do the base come because of the stuff that's there to begin with, or do the things visit the bases because it shows a spike of consciousness and intelligence and humanity that is just unprecedented. What what do you think is going on over there? Well, if you and I, you know, let's just say you and I are pure scientists and we're, we're down, we're down in the rabbit holes. By the way, we're not religious people. We're, we're like the facts. We don't want any, anything but science.

1:26:26 We want something to be explained to us as science, period. And and and and and so we're open to anything to keep our country at the forefront. We're open to anything, any phenomena that looks wild and crazy, you know, or what are they? Are they man made? Are they coming from a lightning storm? How do they sustain themselves? How do they, you know, right now, if you said go in a lab and make me an orb and send it out front door, I don't think anybody could do it, by the way, that that we know of now. I'm saying we, we, we, I'm saying it's not something that hustle of people and all of them there. No, nobody's doing that at home. They can make little orbs set in a magnetic field, spin around and all that, but to have them go across the field and kind of keep themselves lit off and go through a wall. And you know, even Brian Benny, the pilot of spaceship one in one of our flights to Seattle, not Seattle. It was down to to S Nevada.

1:27:26 He said he flew X fifteens man. This guy was on carrier landing guy. He's one of the pilots. He said he had an orb come through the cockpit, come in one side, out the other. Didn't seem to affect anything. But nobody's going to talk about it. You'd be grounded, you'd be grounded. You wouldn't be flying that machine if you're going to be psychologically evaluated. Everybody knew. It in in the cockpit. Through the cockpit, he said. Didn't like burning? Was it a physical? Was it a? Physical ball of light, he said. Little ball of light came through. OK, so we started talking about this before Ball of Light. It could be is is magnetic. Yeah, that's right. And it doesn't have to. A bottle of light doesn't have to be physical like mass. It doesn't.

1:28:09 Well, it doesn't do something. It's, you know, as you know, not all plasma. You can, you've held your hand a little plasma ball at a store and it you know, you're not, you don't feel any heat from that. I mean, there are there are, you know, so I'm not saying it had tons of energy associated with it, like it's, you know, putting UV light and burning his face, but he said it didn't seem to affect anything. So I can't tell you how, what frequency or how much power there was, but he didn't he didn't see any damage caused by it. But he told me and Rutan that story. And you know, this is a guy that was going to be flying our spaceship, but he wouldn't be telling us stuff that would probably ground him with us. We in other words, if we thought he was crazy, we wouldn't have he wouldn't. In other words, he was, I think he was telling the truth. Right, meaning he'd have anything to gain from telling a team.

1:28:55 No, no, it's really should not told us anything because you'd only been working for Burt for probably about a year and a half then. But what I'm getting at is I think, I think we, I think for a long time, I personally think that we've dabbled in a lot of stuff in order to try to understand it. And I believe we've had our look at what happened when, when the Russians during the Cold War, they had a remote viewing program. So all of a sudden America had one quietly had a remote viewing program. Tied in with the Church of Scientology. Even better. Well, and of course, well, that that's a good one.

1:29:35 That's a good one because it's the, you know, it was the traditional churches that weren't fond of you doing these, these remote viewing psychic stuff in the name of any, for any reason. Why are we paying for that? So then it kind of went quiet and it became the Monroe institution. That's where Hal Puthoff spent some time, could be his time. And and now it's there was other great spoon benders and all sort of people. I knew a guy who went through that. His grandmother died. He's having dreams and he got tested and they went up there for two or three weeks. He was a massage therapist. He worked on me sometime, but he was telling me you work for Bigelow and then he start sharing his up at the Monroe Institute who he trained under.

1:30:20 And he said, I said, why would you be up there? This guy called himself a Christian healer. And I said, OK, tell me about this. I'm on the table getting massage. He's good at deep tissue, hip, hip stuff, sciatica in particular. But I'll tell you what, I looked him up the other day. I'm not going to say his name, but he was working on me pre COVID or during COVID, probably a little bit. He looked him up in the paper and he was, he was, he got went to jail for crack and stuff. They look awful. Shit. Yeah. So he, you know, in order to, he was showing me a little skill he thought he had or something. And I'm like, OK, what I do with that they had to do with the necklace and spinning it one way or the other.

1:31:00 And, you know, he was just thought he was, you know, people tell you stuff if they think you, if they know you work for Bob Bigelow and you're in advance propulsion or whatever, people just start sharing stuff with you. Yeah. Believe me, I bet. I bet. They think, you know, they think you're one of them. I'm one of them is sometime it's it's satanic people that they're all in. They've got garb in there and they thinking, oh, I'm at the right table. I mean, I have two of them tell me that this is going to be fun because they think, you know, I've got some great stories I'm going to tell. I've seen I've seen different sides of this man. And it's like, I personally believe in the name of national security and keeping us number one, I think we've explored things. We probably don't know what we're doing in many cases. That's like the consequential that we talked about earlier. That's right.

1:31:49 If we don't do it, someone else will. That's like, yeah, that's like the AI, that's like the the CRISPR technology. If we don't, they're going to run around us. So consequently, we we got to get in the front of it. It's it's kind of. And it's, you know, crazy. I don't even know if that line of thinking is even necessarily is even necessarily true or rational. I think that we have our perception of reality and especially of other humans and other in other countries in general is so much of it is so manufactured and so much of it is so much of our perception. I I think is so 1 sided and so intentionally blind and not from the people that are seeing it, but the way that it's being taught and the way that our perceptions are forged and shaped. I think that I think that people do like if the, I think that there could be, I, I, I don't know how it would even happen, but because I think the people running the show aren't those type of people.

1:32:50 But I think I, there could be a world without nuclear weapons, but using nuclear power. There could be a world in using science. Again, like you said earlier, science is a tool the same way amoral. There's no good or bad. It's, it's just a way that we choose to implement it or not. And we are at everyone's throat all the time. We're so tribal. And I think one of the big threats of space, one of the big threats of space travel, is that we ultimately begin to start looking at one another as one tribe instead of looking at the American tribe and the Russian tribe and the American tribe and the Chinese tribe and the planet Earth is a tribe. And that that would be catastrophic to the general order of the way that the world is running right now.

1:33:32 But you know what? Since the beginning of time there, people can't seem to be content with being on this level. Somebody's got to be the the dog, the top dog always, and we can't. You don't trust people. And I mean, it's as old as time, man, I. Mean that's why we need religion. I but I personally believe that that's why we have religion in general. I think religion for for for humanity is an evolution of consciousness. Hey, who would have ever thought that man would be a monogamist? I mean, like look at look at, I mean think about how old how old we are and how old our species is. And for a guy to say, I'm going to put on a ring and then, you know, never touch another woman for 60 years, which goes against who knows how many primal or evolutionary instincts that that that guy might have.

1:34:17 You know, I mean, we, we, we've, we, we or the fact that we have manners. I mean, like all this stuff is we, these are evolutions of consciousness that make us something different. And so that's just another step on the ladder that we got to get to. But I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's that far off. Well, I think it seems to be, you know, it's not a bad guideline for living. A lot of what we, you know, we learn in our various scriptures. And it's practically when you get old, you look back and say, you know, more power and more latitude and more freedom is not necessarily going to be a good thing for the kids in the structure of good enough as and finding that happy medium and balance in your life.

1:35:01 All those things are, I mean, there's not too many good stories where people conquer everything and they're #1 and they get to stay there. It doesn't happen, you know. And then of course, they've tried them, you know, the, the United Nation thing. And then, but the problem is inevitably there's people, there's thinking there's too many of us and they're going to figure out if this out and that, you know, and everybody who makes money seems to be fine with using various whether it's through health, what we eat, what we do well, how we live, it's OK fetus crap. And there'll be a lot of people that can't, that don't have money, that will be happy to buy the crap and they'll die earlier. And I'm telling you, it's there's people that really do look at us as that we're not that important. There may be animals.

1:35:49 Animals are more important or more intelligent because they're not doing as much destruction as us. So inevitably the problem with the nuclear weapons is, you know, yeah, you need a world police kinda. Because we really are to that tipping point, by the way, we are at the tipping point where everyone says, well, they only have 60% concentrated, you know, material to make bombs with. The thing is that people don't understand is it takes a long time to get to 50% with the process. But you can get a bomb in a matter of weeks with that percent and get it to where it needs to be. It's not, it's not linear. It takes a long time to get to that that that amount of purity, by the way.

1:36:34 Then it's easy. It's very easy to get the rest of the way. And that's a problem. It wouldn't be a problem if you if you, if you didn't get rewarded so well if you blow some people up because the the program is, is, is if you're a male for some people, they, they get some pretty good hook up for, for doing bad things to other people. So I don't know the answer, but I'll tell you one thing. Without trust and verification methods, we're not we're in a pickle. And this goes back to what Wernher von Braun was talking about this moment in time where we're going to have to deal with the alien threat. And he says, but it's not going to be aliens. It's going to be the government's trying to get manage this big caught this big thing called Earth and the nuclear weapons here and there.

1:37:23 And now they need a common we need a common belief system. I'm an enemy. We need to get rid of these weapons or throw them at the the aliens. But he said it's going to be us. It's a way they're going to try to manage the the acceleration of knowledge technology and they need a way to grab a hold of the whole planet. And I think Steven. Greer was saying that the other day, wasn't he? Did he hear? Did he? Do you see that, Steve? Was it Steve? Steven Greer? I don't know that. I heard him the other day saying I I know that. You said the other day. Ron Brown before in the this scenario. He mentioned that, he mentioned that there was supposed to be, there was 2 attempts for there's two different attempts for projects and for mass, I guess controller, you know, like a COVID type event, right? And that, that, that a faked alien invasion is being planned for 2028 or something like that, Which is why, which is why we're starting to head down this path now. But again, what, what, what makes this so frustrating is that like every good conspiracy theory and like every good government event and like every good issue that ever happened, there's always a little bit of truth probably laced into that. And so if we were to say that, you know, what the universe is proud is almost certainly teeming with life. I, I believe it.

1:38:40 And the universe is so. And I don't know whether people have whether life has visited Earth. I'm inclined to say yes personally, but that's just because I want to, I think more than anything. But sure that so, so I'm sure that there's grains of truth too. If if there is a planned alien invasion, there have to be grains of truth within that that there that, you know, not going to whip this out of nowhere. And there has to be some kind of hard signs that you can point to. Listen, people did die of COVID. Like that wasn't a question. COVID was a tragedy for an enormous amount of people. There was no question that the question isn't treasured or not. The question is manufactured or not, with what intent, to what extent and and and so on. But and, and by the way, the answer could be whatever.

1:39:21 And you know that I don't even care to get into that, but. I think it's all the above, right? A little bit of all. And so that I think that this is too, I think that this is what it's going to be too. And I've also heard that disclosure could be just a slow, a slow Rd. process, that it's not one bombshell, but it's a series of conversations that become normalized over time and movies in Hollywood that start to get endorsed by the public. And then all of a sudden Obama saying something and Trump saying something. And, and all of a sudden you have people on both sides of the aisle in the age of disclosure and this missing scientists. And then and then and now everyone's kind of ready there, there, everyone's already there without anyone having to come out and say anything. Yeah, we're getting warmed up for sure. You know, I count it listening to to Tim Burchett and listening to Luna and you know, and they're pretty, they're pretty junior to have this project that they have in their court to be to be chasing the the old school, the old guard.

1:40:18 Do you agree? They're young. That means they could be pretty gullible about. Luna in particular I thought was was strange how how how involved she is. Like it's cool, but I I'm surprised. Yeah. So, you know, when they said today, I think I heard Tim Birch say today, he said, well, they said, do you really believe in aliens? And he said, he said, I believe there are, there is evil. And he said, you know what I'm deducing from this? I am thinking that there are people and forces in play where they're seeking knowledge for great technology and they're doing unconventional things. I think is 1. Of those guys too, by the way. OK. I think they're literally they want the they want the toys and they don't want to have to work as hard. So they are praying for knowledge from whatever's out there that will give them some feedback. And I don't think the what's out there, the details of that, the public is ready to hear that story. That's what I think.

1:41:18 I think they have figured out how to communicate with whatever is out there talking. Yeah, I'm talking conscious. I'm talking that they they're getting it and they call it an ether, They're calling it quantum. We may be getting a message from across the universe. It could be instantaneous coupling and you know what I'm saying? It could be duality. And we just tuned into the right frequency. It takes people to do this, and I think that's the controversial part. The fact that we'd be paying anybody to be doing laying in a bed or in a chamber doing something we call collective conscious, seeking some way to have destructive outcomes with the toys that we might.

1:42:03 The knowledge we gain, we use them to for maybe, maybe for. And let's face it, if it's if it's if it's free energy of some sort, I'll call it free over unity. That will definitely be squashed for a lot of reason. Energy. Yeah, because energy is is, is there so much invested in the way we currently run our whole system and who benefits? Absolutely. I don't see that we're going to get the hook up on anything. Another problem is when you have a really dense way to get a lot of energy, you have a dense way to build some awesome weapons, launch them and if you can pull it out of ether, you can do it from anywhere. So that's the problem.

1:42:46 They all kind of, it's like I think Eric would argue too that they all could be the same coin that the nuclear peace and the energy that the energy, in other words, the making of energy. You remember he talked about the Bravo, the hydrogen bomb going off and he was they wouldn't be talking about the yield that came out of that far exceeded what they predicted. There was something happening with that bomb and they scientists looked at the date and think, holy cow, there's some other physics going on here pebbling with this bomb and giving us more yield than we ever predicted, he said. Right then they said let's, we're going to do a moratorium on doing hydrogen bombs and explosive nuclear weapons.

1:43:27 And, and, and I think based on what I've read, they were able to scale down all experiments because if they, they're a lot easier to make than they were the fission. The fission took a lot of magic happening exactly the same time the, the, the, the hydrogen bombs. Apparently they're, they're, they're much easier to, to light off. So that's what I believe. We're doing stuff at small scale because we go unnoticed. We know with enough of the, the same material, the same physics, we can build a big one. And I think that's why we don't hear a lot of people popping off stuff that gives you seismic activity, you know, of nine on the Richter scale here and there. It's rare.

1:44:11 I wanted to ask you, unless, and you mentioned this earlier, I don't know if you want to talk about it again or not, but a quick defense of the Amy Eskridge video that was going around because I think that I mean, I would personally like to give it a fair shot. It's up to you whether you want to elaborate on what I'm talking about. Well, you know. We can leave the guy's name out of it That, that, that, that, that that published if you want. But but just just been her defense. Because people I've seen already a couple of videos online and different podcasts and different, you know, X accounts and stuff that are basically really calling her a kook. And it's saying that, you know, she's probably brilliant, but who knows where her mental state was? Who know what her, who knows what her emotional state was? You know, we don't know with someone like that how. And as someone that knew her and her dad and his worked with her and advise her, I just wanted to get some of your two cents on that. Yeah, who do you think is more dangerous? A scientist who's used to keeping his head down and working and doing his job and following protocols and and respecting the community and the science. How do you think the daughter of a dad who does that, who's good at spilling the beans and telling, telling the story and I'm going to share it with the world. Who, which one of those two people do you think is really more dangerous selectively?

1:45:24 There's a lot of danger there, but it's highly unusual to have that combo. OK, She's not, she wasn't stupid. She was, she was definitely a threat to some people, no doubt about that. Based on text I have and, and things that I know and they can remember a lot, lot of my interaction with hers in 1819 and then later a little bit with her dad. But but you know, she passed away with 2022, right? I think it's 2220. Last time I saw was at the UAP conference in Huntsville. The first one they had her dad were there and how put off is a really the first one they had at Huntsville and that's where Alonzo I finally came out and came to Huntsville and he's you know, he's an Intel.

1:46:08 You know, I'm connected with all these people on LinkedIn. Is it a lot of the people that do this stuff? They don't have LinkedIn profiles man they. I bet not. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. They don't need a job they don't need they're having fun and I could promise you they ain't going to talk about it. There's no good. So people that yap all the time, generally are, are are a lot of people quote, doing doing research and yapping about all the time. They're probably not that. They're just looking for hits and and and, you know, followers. And that's what I think. But Amy was different. She represented some incredible people, by the way, talented people that never talk.

1:46:50 In fact, one of the scientists, I looked that guy up. I couldn't find nothing on this guy. He was a he was a new guy and he'd worked apparently. So this guy was was working with a neutron generator that he had developed to do science at the hospitals. OK, there's certain types of radiation patients get, they use radiation to kill cancers. But the half life of what's out there, they have to bring in. It could be a day, it's only going to last 24 hours. And then you got to fly more in. Have you ever heard of that? There's certain particles that they use. And he was able to create some of these with a emitter that he designed and had glass blower made and it was incredible. And he was pitching this as a product that he could sell even though you wouldn't normally get to offer his. When are you going to get to offer a commercial product? When you're all you ever done is design and wacky weapons, what is going to be your commercial product? So he's found a lane to get in, you know, and which is cool. I was totally blown away.

1:47:54 I said who who made all that intricate glass? He said, well, the glass, best glass blowers in the country makes glass up near Chattanooga, you know, up that way. Yeah, Tennessee. But this guy was very soft spoken and it and I'm just blown away. This is over my head, man. I'm down in his lab and he was the real deal man. And that's the kind of people aiming at on different projects, she'd find funding so they could go build a commercial product. But the potential of those people is what's scary. It's not the commercial products, by the way. That particular product could scan the ground and look for certain munitions and it would kick off a certain emission. So he had a sensor that he had designed that could see things like explosives and stuff.

1:48:41 So there were other uses to penetrate the ground and scan for IDs and all that kind of stuff, improvised munitions. So there was a lot of good that these people can do. But I'm telling you this is she was not full of it. Amy was the real deal. She was doing. She was in a job doing keeping, keeping real opportunity coming through the door and applying it and keeping her dad and others out of a lane. Maybe that would be get them in trouble. OK. Yeah, Yeah. Do you think that? And I personally, I believe the potential of these geniuses, some of them, that's the scary part. And there was nobody with a horn like Amy.

1:49:23 And she was going to tell the world that we're working on this anti gravity now, by the way, anti gravity. Yeah, who doesn't want to fly to to the moon or whatever. But the point is a lot of these were real small experiments that were demonstrators. They weren't like they had a flying saucer in the backyard that I know of. But the one is the fundamentals. The fundamentals and the fact that she was going to spread all this to the world. That's the problem. Imagine that her working for the folks out at Los Alamos are down out there, They're 51 and she's out there at the library talking about the great work and she brings her father in and there's taking questions. And think about that for a minute.

1:50:04 These guys that have always worked some spook stuff. There are some real classified stuff. Do you think how many people you think might want to do her harm? What if you're in those arenas and you've been doing the right thing and. You think private or public or both? No, I think I think retired people that have a lot of knowledge and a lot lots of loose like some of these people that are disappearing right and all the connections to JPL. And it makes me wonder if some of these people were also working some of these conscious angles by the way. And it all goes back to some of that Crowley, because you and. Consciousness are have been linked also right, especially because there's maybe some kind of speculation and I don't think that they could even really speculation anymore. I did a podcast I was making a short with a month ago with the woman I think I told you this on the phone the other day named Doctor Lisa Gable.

1:51:01 But she's man a neurobiologist and she's working with a with the with the engineering professor to use to create like EEG hat to control and to use our neurons to control to control drones using EEG. And she's doing this since 2010. They're driving they're they're flying drones around the gym with their minds, with their brains. And I'm like, this is 2010 in Lafayette University that some you know, and and and she was wonderful, awesome guest. I never heard, you know, I never heard of anything like this. Before our folks probably been doing it for for another 10 or 20 years. Yeah. So, so there's there's speculation, especially because the UFOs seem often too small to be manned really as far from our understanding and what we could guess, which is also by the way, completely preposterous because like the idea that like there's such thing as like a little intelligence, OK.

1:51:55 I mean like, I don't suppose why not? Now keep in mind if you're Amy's dad, you know I have not talked to him about his death of Amy. That is just not a subject bring up. But I didn't know. She did have a lot of fibromyalgia stuff. She saw me one day when I met her with I had an ice pack in my back and I have a lot of sciatica. She says you suffer too. A lot of I said, yeah, I travel with these ice packs everywhere. It sucks. She goes well, that's the way it goes. You know, people that are really doing real stuff kind of make a difference. They seem to be plagued with something. And then I didn't subscribe to that necessarily, but she certainly thought it was a a burden for those who were making a difference.

1:52:43 And I do think that there's a lot of stress and suffering. It goes with that with that journey she was on for sure. Sure. She's truly shaking it up man, Huntsville, AL man she's what do you so I personally believe that something what happened to her, especially with her on any medicine with a drink. I think they would they would be just the perfect storm for for people that that are made to kill themselves different ways and threaten their families, threaten their they just say, hey, you know, you're you're you're done anyways. You if you want to see your whatever live this is what's going to happen because we're done. You're done and this is the way to go down man. It looks like a suit side and it is for that. So I am skeptical.

1:53:31 I don't believe that nobody loves their parents and the crazy about them would do that on the family farm. That's done that is nothing good. There's a lot of places you can go do that, but that wouldn't be my number one spot. That's just me and I've I've I've seen from my own family, but and it was just a big mess. But but but you know, that was a unfortunately it was a very unfortunate young, young kid, but in a girl girlfriend deal. The point is that he didn't do that at home either, you know. Yeah, it went to the cemetery. It's just that's this is all very darn horrible, horrible, horrible. Love that kid. I'm just saying, man, I just don't buy it for the very reason of the relationship, how proud she was of her dad. And you don't do that as a party thing for your dad or your mom. So they're very soft spoken people and they're they don't like trouble and and I think and in their minds it probably is. It could be that, but and it's a good it's an off ramp because they they've even said, well, unfortunately, scientists do die and suddenly kill themselves.

1:54:38 That's sort of their standard. That's just what they said recently. I think Fox tried to get in touch with them and they said, you know, they told, they said people scientists died too, you know, so they don't need any trouble. Do you know, there was a lot of financially, it was tough to not have Amy out there keeping the business stuff going and then meeting milestones and doing the paperwork. It was a lot of lot of lot of terms when that happened beyond her being gone. It's just crazy. It's a lot more complicated than people understand. And it's, it's the kind of stuff that you know, can lead to bankruptcies and stuff that, you know, when you're, when you're in your retirement years, you just, you don't want to deal with all that.

1:55:18 Yeah, especially when all you, especially when your research is what keeps you going. I mean, that's it. Retire, Retirement to death sentence as far as far as anyone's concerned, you know. Yeah, but I I've never in anything, even some of her texts to me and there's a bunch she was she she said I am will never. That's not I'm I'm not suicide. She said that too. If it's true, this Reddick stuff that came out from Sam Reed, I think it was that it was just a couple days ago. I said those were texts that were it went on Reddit. I screenshot them all. I. Just. Disappears, but it's supposed to be text from Sam now. I met Sam as one of her Canadian friends. So I have asked him.

1:56:02 I sent him a note. I said, is there, is this real? I don't think I've heard back, but that was earlier today. I really, if it is, I mean, if he's sharing that, it's really interesting. You'd have to read it. And I don't want to. And I for the, I don't want to, I don't want any trouble with Amy's, you know, I don't want to create problems for them. But I will tell you this, you just stitch it together. How many people get to go out? When people are retired who done some really crazy stuff and have talent, you're trying to commercialize them. At the same time you're telling people we're going to do some gravity energy stuff. And then it's like those people are like, holy crap, I don't want you talking about that because that's going to get me. Somebody's going to come visit us. Are you with me?

1:56:50 Somebody in the in the, in the government? Because that's not what you do when you retire working programs. That's right. I mean, if you were, if you were running your mouth on base and they'd probably take care of you if they had to, they they have the right to protect the interests of national security. And that's the way it is. That's what we. Had there was a statue, I forgot what it was from the 1950s. I think that the government basically said they could just classify anything in the name of national secure. They can privatize and classify anything in the name of national security. So you're working on something fun. Very cool, very nice. Get a visit next door. Knock, knock. Who is it? Everything you've been working on, it's classified. You can never talk about it again. Have a nice life.

1:57:31 If you really want to work in this area, we'll find you some work to do, but you need to sign something because you're getting too close to some things we're working on. Yeah, and it's. Like, I mean, what else you going to do, man? You're either top dog with the good toys to protect our interests and I think there's a lot of cool toys that we can only imagine. I know and you know what that's and that's so your side and go looping back full circle before we call it a night. You know is when this goes into your sci-fi and your reality is already so crazy and you know, who knows what the heck is going on out there for real? Well, but I'm I, I.

1:58:12 You know, you know there's you. Maintain hope. Are you hopeful? Well, I am, I mean, think, I think we're probably in the, the right country to be the last to fall. I'm hopeful that I'm hopeful that we, we, we need our need our advanced propulsion so we can go to our own planet and do our own thing. I think that would be really good. I think people would be still collaborating and trying to take resources from this planet because it's so good. Yeah. So I think we'd be dealing with with crazies even that just come in or steal our water and to to take whatever. Do you agree with that? I'm saying if if you can get off this planet and have some pretty cool tech to do that, you've probably got, we've got a now.

1:58:59 It wouldn't be 5 minutes before we annexed other planets. It would take us. It would take us. It would take us through the time that you could sign your corporate. You know that that that deal that guarantees your short shareholders X amount of returns from owning planet XYZ, You know? Yeah, and that's. How long you take? You know, when you get Hoover on your show, you need to ask him about the nature of water and life. And he's founded everywhere. Everywhere. He studied the moon rocks and and some Mars. A lot of Mars pictures haven't been any real good samples have come back. But the point is he'll tell you a lot about how life could sustain millions of years under the water that never freezes the deep water and why they're the physics of that is such could be something that it's crazy worms that come alive from sunshine and they they start, they start basically sweating like thycol on the glycol and it melts ice local and then that frees up adjacent microbes and stuff for it to eat. So these these worms are like a piece of tubing and he was showing these.

2:00:10 Absolutely. Ice worms found deep in the Arctic way under the ground. They pull cores crazy. They come up and it's pretty cool, man. But he's got all these. He's got some great presentations he's done on so far as life goes. Yeah, You know, I am I think I think the dam is about to break in a lot of areas and we are at a critical mass for technology where it's going to be too easy for people to easily do destructive things. And I think something's got somebody's going to hit the brakes and, you know, shy of destroying, you know, regions completely, we've got to have some policies and some I mean, I'm not saying, you know, that the the United Nations kind of got out of hand.

2:00:56 And you can you can see now that the agenda agendas were not the people's agendas. They were some utopian for a small group of people that what they thought who the ones that are going to be here for the long term here who are the takers? So you know that I mean it was going that way. So there needs to be it seems like a United Nations to control weapons and all that, but they need to be a very open Komona existence transparency. I'm going to leave it at that on that. But, but man, I am, I think we're, I really believe that. I believe that This is why they use the term demonic sometime.

2:01:37 I think the dark forces of where information is coming from, the taxpayers are not going to be happy with the answer Y'all. I don't like what they're doing. They're not going to they're not going to be happy with with with these methods to go and get information and be in these dark places and and and summon things that we don't really understand the the physics. We use the word quantum and interconnected and it's all but the fact is there's not a a filed system just setting out in space saying, well, if you go to this vector, you'll get Tim Pickens and spaces for the last 100 years. I mean, are you wouldn't that's why people say it's a big holograph. It's a hologram.

2:02:18 You know, think about holograms are if you see a picture, you can cut out a little quarter by quarter inch of that picture and it got it has all the details of the whole picture. Every, no matter how small, you make that. You know that, right? You cut it. You have all the details of the whole hologram. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yes. Pretty much to a degree down to the point where you have the pixels stop making the image because it is photographic, some of it's old photographic film. But the point is, is people see the the universe is this 3 dimensional hologram and it's there's repetition of Everything Everywhere, sort of. Yeah, that's it's not the looping universe.

2:02:59 I forgot what it's called. I forgot what it's called, Yeah. But I, I do believe that, you know, we could have a long talk about the, the origins of, of some of the history of, of, of the, of the gods and the biblical writings before people existed. There seemed to be this evil in the world, in some cases made by creator who was omnipotent, knew everything. But yet these, these, these, these creatures that wanted free will or he wanted them that free will. There was quite an experiment that didn't work out, but it's even mentioned in in our Old Testament and in some of the writings and other religions. So question is where the battles of the of the planets?

2:03:43 Was there some reality to that when they were thrown out of paradise? But if you're going to write a book to the people of planet Earth, why can we relate to creatures that darn even beings they're, they're spiritual are they are conscious and they're not by people like us. So the point is, why would you share that story with us? It's not as relevant as the people story, let's say of the New Testament or others. All I'm saying is there's a lot of weird stuff that that you could get into here. But I do believe our politicians are worried to death that this discussion about where some of this tech come from, they really can't explain it. Yeah, that's the topic.

2:04:26 Do you? I do agree with that. It's all seems to be aligning and they're like. There's not a good answer, but you're not going to like it. Yeah, we have to see what I to see what I believe that comes out of any politicians mouth these days. But you know, because even if they come out and show me, you know what, I don't believe crap anymore. And and you know what? They they they the blatant the the degree of blatant lying is so to such an extent that it almost would require the most overwhelming evidence that like it would need like like doing it having a formal handshake and a photo op with a with a the interdimensional being for for me to buy Tim Bertrand or. Well, yeah, you're right, You're right. I agree with you.

2:05:14 And by the way, I think we're going to see some pictures and videos and I think people are going to be able to explain them in different ways. Yeah, I know. And you're not going to see, you're not going to see a living it's going to. Be amazing and something's going to be incredible. I think it's going to be mind boggling, but it's not going to be any anything you can get your hands on. And I think the grudges, you know, that the people that think about it, the counterintelligence people that have come out as whistleblowers. Are any of those people in jail, by the way? Not to my knowledge. And all wiki blowers go to jail, right? Yeah, so they're out run their mouth. And if they're really a threat, do you really believe they would be allowed to do that?

2:05:56 Yeah. The point is they're out there counterintelligence and they're out being fed some stuff and they think they've got a platform in there. It's clear with, with with with the one guy, Alonzo, it's clear that as long as he talks about aliens off the planet, he's in good shape. In other words, it's out there. It's not us. Yeah, that's that's his spice. Have you noticed? Yeah, I have. I've, I don't, I don't buy anything he says either. Of course, I mean, again, grain of salt because I'm sure there's kernels of truth, but I don't buy a lot of what he says. I agree with you. Tim, I'm sorry I have to cut this, but I, I like computers on 2%. So I, I really appreciate your time.

2:06:36 I love your idea about doing live Q&A podcast another time. I think that would be a ton of fun. We'll gather up a bunch of questions and you know, let's see what we could do with this. But I think that we could we could make something great. And I would love to have another conversation with you because this is our second or third multi hour conversation and I'm really enjoying all of this. Well, I'm sorry I'm so long winded. No, this is great. I love this. This is the point of the podcast and it's really been a ton of fun. So I thank you so much for your time and thank you for all this. Awesome. Some information and it's so much fun. We covered so much ground, so yeah. And by. The way when you come back, I'll give you a tour of the labs and all of my crazy stuff.

2:07:17 Jet packs, rocket bikes, it's all here man. I'm going to come, I'm going to. I'll make a trip, I'll make a trip. My wife and I are looking for a place to go. OK, Tim, thank you so much to be on your show and thank you again. Of course, have a great night. All the best. Take care man, Take care. Man, we'll see you.